March 19, 2024 • 38 mins
In this episode, host Rahim Thawer talks to Kae about the recurring feelings of stress around when rent is due. The conversation explores Kae's thoughts and emotions related to financial struggles, self-criticism, and worries about falling back into unhealthy habits. Rahim and Kae also cover topics such as maintaining psychological safety, rationalizing thoughts, and the fear of not being able to escape past trauma and financial difficulties.
With the use of the “Thought Record,” Rahim talks Kae through identifying the feelings, behaviours, and automatic thoughts that come up for Kae on the morning she has to pay her bills. Together they hone in on a hot thought, which is an automatic thought that occurs in combination with a change in emotion or mood. Since our hot thoughts can be clouded by our emotional state, they are not always the most factual. To determine if Kae’s hot thought is an accurate representation of the moment, Rahim and Kae try to find evidence to support and contradict her hot thought. Since there was evidence to contradict Kae’s hot thought, they identify a more balanced thought that could be supported by the evidence.
Takeaways
- Maintaining psychological safety is important in therapy to ensure a feeling of connection and safety.
- Identifying and evaluating difficult thoughts can help in understanding and managing challenging emotions.
- Financial struggles can trigger feelings of defeat, self-criticism, and worry.
- The fear of regressing into unhealthy habits and past trauma can impact one's mental and emotional well-being.
- Recognizing and addressing the underlying beliefs and thoughts related to financial struggles can be helpful in developing healthier coping strategies.
ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.
ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Well, here we are.
Welcome to the CBT Dive.
This is the podcast thatdemystifies cognitive behavioral
therapy.
I'm psychotherapist and hostRahim Thawar.
In each episode, I walk a guestthrough applying CBT skills to
real world situations.
(00:21):
Hi, Kay.
Hi.
Welcome to the CBT Dive.
I'd like to introduce you to ourlisteners.
So Kay is somebody I met earlierin 2023 and we met in northern
ontario and she does some reallycool work and i know from our
our time together that she loveslive music art she is social
(00:46):
justice oriented and really ispassionate about harm reduction
and um saving lives throughadvocacy around drug policy
changes that have been drivingthe overdose epidemic.
Today, we're going to examinesome of your thoughts related to
(01:07):
a situation that's bringing updifficult feelings.
One of our goals is to maintainpsychological safety, and we do
that by identifying one thingthat we can work on, right?
Because there's so many thingsthat bring up difficult feelings
for us.
And so to be able to zone in onone challenge and really examine
(01:31):
it can be very useful.
All right.
So Kay, I'm going to share myscreen and we're going to jump
into a thought record.
The situation you had identifiedwas it's when rent is due,
right?
So beginning of of the month andrent is due and this most recent
(01:57):
month what time of day did ithit you like was it the
realization where maybe you werefull of dread or anxiety or
whatever the feeling was
SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
so generally speaking on payday before i even
get out of bed I kind of like gointo my banking and I pay what
needs to get paid and I putmoney where it needs to go.
And then I know what I have leftto get through the next two
weeks.
I had very little money in mybank account right before my
birthday weekend, right before,right for the beginning of
(02:27):
December, where there's a lot ofevents happening.
gift purchasing is kind ofalways on the mind and stuff
like that.
So it was a very early start toa payday, just kind of having to
sit with where I was at.
SPEAKER_00 (02:42):
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing that.
The situation I've got up hereis more refined.
It says, I woke up on the firstand saw my paycheck come into my
debit account, but by 7.30 a.m.
also paid rent and it was verylittle left.
And not to mention, just aheadof your birthday weekend.
UNKNOWN (03:00):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (03:00):
Kate, how were you feeling?
SPEAKER_01 (03:03):
Yeah, I just, I felt defeated and just kind of tired
and frustrated with myself.
I have a history of likefinancial struggles and like
growing up in poverty.
And then I put a lot of work inand I got to a very comfortable
place and then old habits diehard, I guess, or, or situations
come and yeah, if I don't,didn't plan appropriately.
SPEAKER_00 (03:23):
Okay.
So yeah.
Under your situation, I justadded a note that says context.
Grew up in poverty and there's ahistory of financial challenges.
The feelings I heard weredefeated, tired, frustrated.
I'm thinking when you saidfrustrated at yourself, another
feeling there is self-critical,if I'm not mistaken?
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (03:48):
Okay.
Was there any sentiment orsatisfaction?
Like you had enough money to payyour rent, right?
SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
Yeah, especially because I was able to afford to
pay my rent and put money on mycredit cards and put money where
it needed to go so that I feltfinancially responsible.
It's like, okay, the reason whyI'm broke right now is because I
am being financiallyresponsible.
So there is a slight sense ofaccomplishment in there and a
(04:15):
little bit of comfort that it'slike, okay, I have a place to
live and I...
you know, don't need to worryabout that for the next 30 days.
But then also looking at my bankaccount, it's like, just don't
need to get groceries.
So there's that.
SPEAKER_00 (04:33):
So that feeling would be worry.
Yes.
Okay.
I've got defeated, tired,frustrated, self-critical,
worried.
And then I've got accomplish andcomfort.
SPEAKER_01 (04:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:47):
But I know those are in smaller quantities.
If you had to rate these fivefeelings on a scale of one to
ten, one being not intense, tenbeing the most intense, how
would you rate each one?
So let's start with defeated.
An eight.
And what about tired?
Like a seven.
Frustrated?
(05:09):
Eight.
Self-critical?
SPEAKER_01 (05:11):
Eight.
Worried?
Probably like even a seven.
How about accomplished?
I'd put that at like a sixbecause I recognized it in the
moment that it was there.
You recognize it?
SPEAKER_00 (05:25):
Did you feel it?
SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
No, actually.
I'd put it like a five.
SPEAKER_00 (05:29):
And to that end, 7.30 a.m., there's a hint of
comfort, but not very much,right?
So what is your comfort levelrating?
SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
I was at least...
all of these feelings in acomfortable location.
So I'll even, I'll give that aseven.
SPEAKER_00 (05:45):
Okay.
And that's nice, right?
That's really important.
What did you do when you werefeeling defeated, tired,
frustrated, self-critical andworried?
What was your immediate action?
Was it to sleep in longer?
Did you call in sick?
Did you make to-do lists?
What was your go-to behavior
SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
when I was done everything I just like I put my
phone down and I just kind oflaid in bed for a few more
minutes and then I just took adeep breath and I got ready for
work and I went to work and Ihad a nail appointment it's
nothing like investing in thatwhen I am tight on funds but I I
(06:26):
went that was my
SPEAKER_00 (06:28):
self-care for my birthday I think that's great So
the two things I've got downhere is laid in bed for an extra
few minutes and went to work andkept my nail appointment, which
I think is fabulous.
You did say something beforethat, which was I did all the
things.
So before you laid in bed for anextra few minutes, was that you
(06:48):
settling bills on your phone?
Yes.
Okay.
I'm going to say his behaviorsettled all the bills kind of
immediately.
Oh,
SPEAKER_01 (06:59):
yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:59):
I'm going to note that down.
Same as every payday.
Settle all the bills immediatelythrough my phone.
Same as every payday.
I think the behavior is asimportant as the thoughts, you
know, because to me, it'sshowing when I just look at the
behavior, I'm thinking thisperson, their nervous system was
engaged and they were stressedout.
(07:21):
They did something veryresponsible so that they could
relax.
They allowed themselves torelax.
And then they thought about whatthey want their day in their
life to look like.
And they said, you know, I needto continue.
The show must go on in a way asscheduled.
So earlier that day at 730, whenyou were feeling defeated,
(07:43):
tired, frustrated, self-criticaland worried, it might be while
you're paying the bills rightbefore you pay the bills.
What were you thinking?
What are some of the thoughtsthat went on in your mind?
SPEAKER_01 (07:56):
I was just thinking about just like all the
decisions that kind of like ledto where all the, like all this
money is going, like what I'mpaying off and just kind of
that.
I feel like, I feel like I'mconstantly like rationalizing as
I'm paying things.
It's like, yep.
Okay.
This has to go here because ofthe, I did like, I chose to do
(08:17):
this and this is this.
And I don't know if that's a wayI'm self-talking myself to kind
of alleviate some of that, Give
SPEAKER_00 (08:25):
me an example of the rationalizing thought.
So I'm paying off things thatare essential or that I needed.
You
SPEAKER_01 (08:32):
know, I'm dropping, I'm putting$300 on this credit
card because I bought a couchand I made a plan on paying it
off.
I made that decision.
I knew this was going to happen.
I budgeted for this.
SPEAKER_00 (08:44):
Yeah.
And the rationalizing is verygood, but I would actually...
put that in the section in thefar right that says alternative
thought, because what you'redoing is you're saying things
that counteract or reduce theintensity of the difficult
(09:06):
feeling.
And that is a very good skill.
Before you do that, I think weneed to figure out what the
difficult thoughts are.
So before you say, you know, Ihad to buy this.
And paying it off is importantwhen you feel defeated.
(09:27):
I imagine there's anotherthought there.
It might even be a bitsubconscious.
So if you had to connect athought to being defeated, what
would that thought be?
SPEAKER_01 (09:37):
It's like I'm in a position where my income is
higher than it's ever been.
And I, you know, I've had to payrent and have had these bills
before and felt the samestruggle making less.
So I think I just feel defeatedbecause it's like, I should be
able to live within my meansbecause my means are more now
(09:58):
than they like one more now thanthey used to be.
And they're not so.
SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
Yeah.
So my income is higher.
So I shouldn't be in the sameplace as earlier in my life.
SPEAKER_01 (10:12):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (10:13):
I'm curious about these initial thoughts, right?
And sometimes it's hard to spendsome time with them and hold
them.
So this first one, you'refeeling defeated because my
income is higher, so I shouldn'tbe in the same place as earlier
in my life.
Now, when you feel self-criticaland frustrated, is it the same
(10:34):
thought or is it anotherthought?
SPEAKER_01 (10:36):
That I have impulse issues and I am overspending.
You know, it's kind of like,this is my own fault.
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
Okay.
So one is I have impulse issues.
I might have impulse issues thatlead to overspending.
SPEAKER_01 (10:52):
Like it's the consequences of my own actions.
It's just like present to me isvery annoyed of past me.
It's
SPEAKER_00 (10:58):
like in that moment.
And when you feel worried, whatthought is connected to that?
So you might say I'm worriedabout, or I'm worried because...
SPEAKER_01 (11:10):
I'm worried about other expenses that'll come up
in the next two weeks before mynext paycheck and how I'm going
to manage to pay those off orpay for things.
You know, I'm worried aboutgroceries or not having enough
of my own money to pay forthings.
SPEAKER_00 (11:28):
Okay, so there will be more expenses coming up
between now and the nextpaycheck and I might not have
enough money to last forgroceries.
Is that in particular, like, doyou think you might not have
enough for food?
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
I would have enough for food, like for my normal,
like normal groceries, no.
But would I have enough to likesurvive?
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (11:53):
Okay.
I'm looking just forclarification about where we're
really at, right?
So I've just rephrased thethought to say, I might not have
enough money to last for myquote unquote normal groceries.
And that is fair, right?
I'll tell you, Kay, I went toFarm Boy the other day, and that
(12:13):
place is so expensive.
But they have these really greatkimchi pancakes, and you get two
of them, and it's like$7.
It's so bananas.
It's so much money.
And it's okay if there's notenough in my account to be able
to buy those.
I'll survive.
(12:34):
But it also comes with feelings,right, if I– really want that
then it signifies something tome right so if you don't have
enough for your normal groceriesand you have just enough to
survive my question to you iswhat does that signify what does
that mean to you
SPEAKER_01 (12:54):
it signifies that i may fall into like other bad
habits specifically eatinghabits if i cannot afford like
protein powder i've been usingor um foods to help make
healthier meals.
Yeah, I think I'm just afraid tofall even deeper into habits I
(13:16):
had when I was living more inpoverty.
SPEAKER_00 (13:20):
Okay.
And when you were living more inpoverty, it sounds like your
relationship to food then andnow has been...
Something you've been grapplingwith.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_01 (13:37):
Definitely.
I would, I do have likebehavioral eating tendencies.
SPEAKER_00 (13:45):
Does that mean like self-soothing, like using food
to soothe yourself when you feelstressed out?
SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
Yeah, just food to cope, whether that's like stress
or anger or sadness orcelebrating, like just...
just in unhealthy ways where I'mnot being kind to my body.
SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
Okay.
And if you didn't have enoughmoney for normal groceries,
meaning nutritional things, youmight buy more survival food,
convenience food, or you mightsay, you know, fuck it, I'm just
going to get junk food.
And what would the consequenceof that be?
(14:30):
So you fall into these pooreating habits.
What does that then mean for youover the next few weeks or
months?
SPEAKER_01 (14:39):
It's fear of like not feeling great physically,
being groggy, bloated, like justnot feeling well if I'm eating
high processed foods.
Yeah.
Which is like the first thing,right?
If I don't feel great, I don'twant to move around.
And then there's like, weightgain involved in that as well
and and i'm trying to to notworry about numbers or to to not
(15:04):
worry about like my my weight umjust about my health
SPEAKER_00 (15:07):
so you're saying if i don't have enough money i
can't buy nutritional food andthen you get to it sounds also
it's not just about the exactmoney it's also a headspace you
enter right you're like If I canonly afford processed food, I
can't maintain a kind ofhealthiness that I want.
And in that headspace, you'resaying I feel physically unwell
(15:30):
in my body, but also it affectsmy body image.
It affects how I see myself.
Is that right?
Yes.
Okay.
And now this might feel like ahard question, but when you
don't feel good about your body,what tends to happen?
Do you disengage from people?
Do you worry that you'll losepeople?
(15:51):
I think there's another kind offear in there.
I
SPEAKER_01 (15:53):
think it's just like my own body dysmorphia and like
that coming up.
It's more, yeah, it's reallyjust more like I've come so far.
I don't want to...
SPEAKER_00 (16:07):
Go
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
back.
Get back.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (16:09):
Yeah.
So part of that fear here is...
I'll regress in my progressaround...
I'm trying to figure out whatthis is called.
Is this self-love?
Is this healthier lifestylechoices?
(16:31):
Fear of falling back intounhealthy, damaging habits.
Okay, so I'll regress.
I'll fall back into unhealthyand damaging...
habits.
Now, you'll notice I put theselittle arrows underneath the
original thought.
I might not have enough money tolast for my normal groceries.
(16:55):
And that's because I askedfollow up questions to help
understand a bit more of thecore of those thoughts.
I'm going to do the same thingfor some of the other thoughts
that you shared.
My hope is for us to understandbetter the range of things that
you experience when you feeldefeated, tired, frustrated,
(17:19):
self-critical, and worried, andparticularly around money,
right?
So the first thing that you hadsaid was my income is higher, so
I shouldn't be in the same placeas earlier in my life.
When in your life are youtalking about?
SPEAKER_01 (17:34):
About three years ago, I was...
not making that much money andnot doing well in a
SPEAKER_00 (17:43):
lot of areas of my life.
So when, when you say toyourself, my income is higher
now, so I shouldn't be in thesame place as I was three years
ago.
And I'm saying, let's say youhadn't made much progress in
three years.
What would that say about you?
I
SPEAKER_01 (17:59):
just like irresponsible.
SPEAKER_00 (18:02):
Yeah, I am irresponsible.
That sounds like a clear kind ofself-criticism, doesn't it?
And there's a lot of feelingscoming up for you.
And I wonder if you want to,what are the, do you want to
share?
Is there like an image or athought that's associated with
(18:23):
some of the feelings?
SPEAKER_01 (18:25):
So it's really just a lot of feelings.
I don't know if shame is eventhe word, but like maybe just
things I did not process throughthat difficult time, you know,
which was a consequence of likeme being irresponsible and like
(18:47):
me being in a fight or flightkind of state for a while.
SPEAKER_00 (18:51):
When you say fight or flight response, you're
talking about...
being in survival mode andresponding to something
traumatic or very activating inyour environment.
And I wonder if here there's athought about like when you see
(19:12):
that, oh, I have more income andI've spent it all that there's a
fear or a thought that I'llnever escape my trauma or I'll
never be I'll never be able tomake grounded decisions,
something like that.
Does that come up
SPEAKER_01 (19:29):
for you?
It does, yeah.
It does feel like that,especially when it's...
Yeah, I feel like I've beenrecognizing that a lot of my
history was spent activated.
And the more aware that I am,the more...
(19:52):
aware I am of when I getactivated now, and that's been
happening more often.
So
SPEAKER_00 (19:58):
it seems to me like when you say, you know, this is
the consequence of my ownactions, it might have impulse
issues that lead tooverspending.
You've kind of already told methat that might be somewhat
factual.
And so I'm just putting a notebeside it, because when
(20:20):
something is factual and It'snot a thought that we want to
mess with.
And so when you say there willbe more expenses coming up
between now and the nextpaycheck, given that it's
December, I'm also gonna saythat's somewhat factual.
(20:41):
So the things that are factual,I'm gonna not touch them because
they are true.
However, I think the things thatare more useful for us to engage
with are some of the things thatyou see in this top area and
particularly some of thethoughts that have arrows beside
(21:02):
them.
So I'm going to read them and Iwant you to think about which is
the most salient thought.
Salient meaning the mostprominent thought.
And this would be your hotthought.
This is the one that's mostprominent and driving.
a lot of the difficult feelingsyou had in the second column.
(21:24):
So I'll read them and you tellme which one you want to pick.
My income is higher now, so Ishouldn't be in the same place
as I was three years ago.
I am still irresponsible.
I might never escape my traumahistory.
I might not have enough money tolast for my quote unquote normal
(21:45):
groceries.
I am susceptible to falling backinto poor eating habits.
I'll feel physically unwell inmy body, and that will affect my
body image.
I'll regress.
I'll fall back into unhealthyand damaging habits.
SPEAKER_01 (22:02):
Escaping trauma.
SPEAKER_00 (22:04):
Yeah.
So you woke up on the morning ofDecember 1st.
You saw your paycheck come intoyour debit account.
But by 7.30 a.m., you also paidyour rent and other bills with
interest.
Very little left.
You felt defeated, tired,frustrated, self-critical and
worried.
What did you do?
Well, you're responsible.
(22:25):
You settled all the billsimmediately.
But you had some difficultthoughts to contend with.
And the hot thought that we'reworking with right now is a fear
that I might never escape mytrauma history.
So...
The next column over is evidencethat supports this idea.
(22:47):
So now we're evaluating yourthought.
And you've kind of already toldme one piece of evidence that
supports this idea that you'llnever escape your trauma
history, right?
So that evidence is moneyproblems have followed me even
(23:13):
with more income.
What other kind of evidence thatyou think about that suggests
you might never escape yourtrauma history?
And I think we're talkingparticularly with poverty,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (23:26):
With this one, yeah.
I'd say there's more evidence inthe sense that I have already
declared bankruptcy three yearsago, three, four years ago.
And that was a very like goodlike turning point that i you
(23:47):
know a lot of um growth happenedso just just feeling like i went
through all that and feelingkind of back there again is
frustrating and it just it to meshows um just a recurrence of
behavior um like despite likekind of doing the big thing,
(24:08):
like declaring bankruptcy anddoing all the work that that
entails to be like back in thatplace of struggle a couple of
years later, feels likeevidence.
SPEAKER_00 (24:22):
Yeah.
And between three or four yearsago and now, have there been
other events, incidences,experiences, that also made you
feel like the financial stressand the impact of poverty is
(24:42):
following you still present?
SPEAKER_01 (24:46):
I mean, I'm seeing it happen to my mom right now as
well.
So that's frustrating.
SPEAKER_00 (24:54):
Yeah.
So I see financial difficultythat continues to follow my mom
around.
Is there anything else?
SPEAKER_01 (25:07):
Yeah, I think it's just like, you know, I identify
these issues three plus yearsago.
Why am I still dealing withthem?
So like,
SPEAKER_00 (25:13):
that's
SPEAKER_01 (25:14):
frustrating.
SPEAKER_00 (25:16):
So one of your pieces of evidence that supports
the idea that you might notescape your trauma history with
poverty is that I'm notcurrently where I'd like to be.
Yes.
Financially.
And I think another piece ofevidence is very clear that
there isn't very much in youraccount at the moment.
SPEAKER_01 (25:39):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (25:40):
Okay.
Now we're moving to the nextcolumn, which is evidence that
does not support the hotthought.
So this is evidence thatsuggests that you could escape
your trauma history withpoverty.
It might not be escape, but itmight be more like I'm able to
put the history behind me,evidence that I've been able to
(26:04):
grow, evidence that I've becomemore stable, things like that.
SPEAKER_01 (26:12):
I may not have much in my checking account or my
savings account, but I do haveRSVs and like a healthy amount
of them.
So that's something that I don'tthink anyone in my family has or
potentially probably will everhave.
So it's...
it's kind of a thing and it's socapitalist, but it's just like,
(26:35):
well, I have this, so I'm notworth nothing.
Like, and it's like, it'sfrustrating to think that, but
it's, that's, it's helped me.
SPEAKER_00 (26:43):
Okay.
Let's not criticize yourself forhaving made plans that will then
serve you.
Right.
You're wanting to escape.
poverty so you can't you'regoing to have to work on
(27:04):
criticizing or not criticizingyourself when you make steps
toward doing that so you haveregistered retirement savings
great yes what are other signsthat suggest you could escape
this trauma history with povertyfor example you have a bigger
(27:25):
credit history now Do you have asafer home now than you have in
the past?
Have you experienced morestability in the last three or
four years than you had prior tothat?
SPEAKER_01 (27:35):
Yes, I would say I have a stable home and a place
to rest and a place to escapein.
In the past, I would have copedwith the stress through
substances or throughdistractions.
(27:57):
in general.
I think there's the evidencewould show it's like I am facing
my challenges more head on now
SPEAKER_00 (28:06):
than I used to.
So I have a stable home, a placeto rest and escape in.
And I think there was a secondpiece there that says I choose
rest and stability oversubstance use.
Is that
SPEAKER_01 (28:22):
accurate?
Yeah, like over, you know, overescaping with you know,
substances or just otherdistractions.
SPEAKER_00 (28:30):
Ah, okay.
So I choose to, I guess, refuelby leaning into rest and the
stability I do have overescaping with substances.
(28:57):
I wonder if you have one, maybeeven two more pieces of evidence
that support the idea that youcould escape poverty or your
history with poverty.
SPEAKER_01 (29:11):
Like the steps I've made, like in terms of starting
therapy again and just kind ofrecognizing that, you know, the
financial struggles I have arenot, like they don't feel good
but it's like, I don't knowwhat's that, like healthy debt
(29:32):
or like healthy financialstruggles.
Like it's just kind of, it justfeels like I'm in a tight spot,
but that's because I'm beingresponsible.
It's just kind of like-
SPEAKER_00 (29:46):
Yes, I like that, totally.
So I'm moving us over to thenext column.
That's about an alternative ormore balanced thought.
And you said a beautiful thing.
You said- I have healthy debt.
I'm paying off things that areessential.
Now, it's not just your rentthat you paid, right?
(30:07):
What are the other things you'repaying off that are essential?
SPEAKER_01 (30:11):
Credit card that I just got and put like a couch on
and like bedding and just thingsfor the home.
I recently, my home situationchanged.
So my partner and I, now justlive together where we before
we're staying with my mom so wewent from not paying rent at all
(30:32):
to you know paying rent everymonth and that that happened
with little notice it was a itwas an opportunity that arised
so we went from like not payingrent and then it was like okay
in three weeks we we pay rentnow like so it was and i had
savings and but then we also hadum plans so like things just
(30:54):
depleted very quickly.
Like my financial situationchanged faster than I had time,
than I felt like I had time toprepare for it.
SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
Yes.
Okay.
So I've got three alternativethoughts that I'm going to read
to you that I've gleaned justfrom what you're saying.
So I have healthy debt.
I'm paying off things that areessential like couch and
bedding.
My expenses have changedsuddenly and they're wasn't
enough time to prepare for this.
(31:26):
A hard period can be part of thebigger plan and anticipated,
right?
But it still feels hard when itshows up.
I'm thinking about any otheralternative or balanced thoughts
you might have that would behelpful in this kind of
situation.
I
SPEAKER_01 (31:45):
have a lot more, like I'm aware of a lot more
resources than I used to be.
And I've used them in terms ofmy struggle.
What kinds of resources?
Like using my benefits toactually get support or to help
(32:07):
cope with
SPEAKER_00 (32:08):
things and talk things out.
And so it's not just that youhad them and didn't access them.
Now you have more knowledge ofand access right to the
resources like work benefits andthese can help you in what way
with long-term financialplanning or with self-care which
(32:31):
are you thinking or both
SPEAKER_01 (32:33):
both really um the financial planning i i kind of
had the moment where I'm like, Ineed to use that service.
Like I do a financial planningsupport and I should use it or I
want to use it.
And then the other thing is likeusing my benefits to access
therapy and to access thingsthat help regulate my nervous
(32:55):
system, like physio and massagetherapy and just really trying
to take care of myself.
So it's,
SPEAKER_00 (33:03):
yeah.
Yes.
I want you to look at the hotthought that was, I might never
escape my trauma history withpoverty.
What's a direct alternativeresponse or reframing of that
statement?
What's another way to say thatthat's not unrealistically
hopeful?
(33:23):
I,
SPEAKER_01 (33:25):
yeah, growing from it is something that I'd really
like to do and it's notsomething I've seen anyone do.
in my family, so it's difficult.
SPEAKER_00 (33:36):
Yeah.
So I'm growing by workingthrough my trauma and it's not
something that's been modeled tome.
All right.
(33:56):
Okay.
You've got a number ofalternative thoughts here.
I'd like you to pick one.
that stands out to you that youalso have the strongest belief
in.
So one that is not just, itsounds good, but you're like,
yeah, that really helps.
That makes me feel betterbecause I believe it to be true.
(34:20):
So I'll read them all from thebottom.
I now have knowledge and accessto more resources like work
benefits that can help withlong-term planning and
self-care.
The hard period.
can be part of the bigger planand anticipated, but it still
feels hard when it shows up.
My expenses have changedsuddenly and there wasn't enough
(34:42):
time to prepare for this.
I have healthy debt.
I'm paying off things that areessential.
I'm growing by working throughmy trauma and it's not something
that's been modeled to me.
I might not escape my traumahistory, but I can learn to live
with it in a more manageable waygrowing from it.
SPEAKER_01 (35:02):
The last one you said.
SPEAKER_00 (35:03):
All right.
So what I'm going to do is listthe feelings again, and I want
you to not worry about how yourated them before.
It just does not matter how yourated them before.
When you say to yourself, Imight not escape my trauma
history, but I can learn to livewith it in a more manageable way
by growing from it.
(35:24):
How would you rate defeated?
SPEAKER_01 (35:26):
Like a
SPEAKER_00 (35:27):
five.
SPEAKER_01 (35:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:30):
What about tired?
SPEAKER_01 (35:31):
Six.
SPEAKER_00 (35:32):
Frustrated.
SPEAKER_01 (35:33):
Five.
SPEAKER_00 (35:34):
Self-critical.
Four.
Worried.
SPEAKER_01 (35:39):
Like a five.
SPEAKER_00 (35:40):
Accomplished.
SPEAKER_01 (35:41):
Six.
SPEAKER_00 (35:42):
Comfort.
SPEAKER_01 (35:43):
So like a seven.
SPEAKER_00 (35:44):
Yeah, goes up a notch.
So Kay, here is your thoughtrecord.
And I'd like for us to have aconversation just for a few
minutes about some of yourreflections.
How was this process for you?
SPEAKER_01 (35:57):
Pretty good.
I think it was very necessary.
Yeah.
I mean, challenging, but stillgood, necessary.
SPEAKER_00 (36:04):
Yeah.
Do you feel like processing inthis way is good for you?
Or does it leave out too much?
SPEAKER_01 (36:15):
I like it.
For me, my...
I don't know if it's coming fromADHD, but I...
I do like having things kind ofmapped out.
It does help me to stay ontrack.
I do like the alternativethoughts because I find I do
that a lot and it is nice toname them and to be able to see
(36:39):
it written down as analternative thought
SPEAKER_00 (36:41):
is helpful.
The only challenge I think iswhen we jump to the alternative
thought too quickly and we'renot giving ourselves a moment to
say, What are the deep thingsthat I'm feeling and processing
here?
You know, because those things,they're not easy.
They're hard.
(37:02):
They bring up shame,embarrassment, et cetera.
So they're hard to talk about.
They're hard to talk about.
Okay, I want to thank you foryour vulnerability, for your
sharing today, and for talkingabout something that is so
deeply personal.
And I think...
(37:23):
other people are going tobenefit from hearing you talk it
through this way.
I know I did.
And I was the therapist in thiscontext.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
And I'm glad it was helpful.
I'll see you next time.
SPEAKER_01 (37:41):
That's good.
Thanks.
SPEAKER_00 (37:43):
And that's the CBT dive for today.
Thank you for joining us as wedemonstrate therapy skills for
the real world.
Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts and follow us
on social media.
The CBT Dive is intended foreducational purposes only and
not as a replacement forindividual therapy.
See you next time.
Well, here we are.
Welcome to the CBT Dive.
This is the podcast thatdemystifies cognitive behavioral
therapy.
I'm psychotherapist and hostRahim Thawar.
In each episode, I walk a guestthrough applying CBT skills to
real world situations.
(00:21):
Hi, Kay.
Hi.
Welcome to the CBT Dive.
I'd like to introduce you to ourlisteners.
So Kay is somebody I met earlierin 2023 and we met in northern
ontario and she does some reallycool work and i know from our
our time together that she loveslive music art she is social
(00:46):
justice oriented and really ispassionate about harm reduction
and um saving lives throughadvocacy around drug policy
changes that have been drivingthe overdose epidemic.
Today, we're going to examinesome of your thoughts related to
(01:07):
a situation that's bringing updifficult feelings.
One of our goals is to maintainpsychological safety, and we do
that by identifying one thingthat we can work on, right?
Because there's so many thingsthat bring up difficult feelings
for us.
And so to be able to zone in onone challenge and really examine
(01:31):
it can be very useful.
All right.
So Kay, I'm going to share myscreen and we're going to jump
into a thought record.
The situation you had identifiedwas it's when rent is due,
right?
So beginning of of the month andrent is due and this most recent
(01:57):
month what time of day did ithit you like was it the
realization where maybe you werefull of dread or anxiety or
whatever the feeling was
SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
so generally speaking on payday before i even
get out of bed I kind of like gointo my banking and I pay what
needs to get paid and I putmoney where it needs to go.
And then I know what I have leftto get through the next two
weeks.
I had very little money in mybank account right before my
birthday weekend, right before,right for the beginning of
(02:27):
December, where there's a lot ofevents happening.
gift purchasing is kind ofalways on the mind and stuff
like that.
So it was a very early start toa payday, just kind of having to
sit with where I was at.
SPEAKER_00 (02:42):
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing that.
The situation I've got up hereis more refined.
It says, I woke up on the firstand saw my paycheck come into my
debit account, but by 7.30 a.m.
also paid rent and it was verylittle left.
And not to mention, just aheadof your birthday weekend.
UNKNOWN (03:00):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (03:00):
Kate, how were you feeling?
SPEAKER_01 (03:03):
Yeah, I just, I felt defeated and just kind of tired
and frustrated with myself.
I have a history of likefinancial struggles and like
growing up in poverty.
And then I put a lot of work inand I got to a very comfortable
place and then old habits diehard, I guess, or, or situations
come and yeah, if I don't,didn't plan appropriately.
SPEAKER_00 (03:23):
Okay.
So yeah.
Under your situation, I justadded a note that says context.
Grew up in poverty and there's ahistory of financial challenges.
The feelings I heard weredefeated, tired, frustrated.
I'm thinking when you saidfrustrated at yourself, another
feeling there is self-critical,if I'm not mistaken?
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (03:48):
Okay.
Was there any sentiment orsatisfaction?
Like you had enough money to payyour rent, right?
SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
Yeah, especially because I was able to afford to
pay my rent and put money on mycredit cards and put money where
it needed to go so that I feltfinancially responsible.
It's like, okay, the reason whyI'm broke right now is because I
am being financiallyresponsible.
So there is a slight sense ofaccomplishment in there and a
(04:15):
little bit of comfort that it'slike, okay, I have a place to
live and I...
you know, don't need to worryabout that for the next 30 days.
But then also looking at my bankaccount, it's like, just don't
need to get groceries.
So there's that.
SPEAKER_00 (04:33):
So that feeling would be worry.
Yes.
Okay.
I've got defeated, tired,frustrated, self-critical,
worried.
And then I've got accomplish andcomfort.
SPEAKER_01 (04:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:47):
But I know those are in smaller quantities.
If you had to rate these fivefeelings on a scale of one to
ten, one being not intense, tenbeing the most intense, how
would you rate each one?
So let's start with defeated.
An eight.
And what about tired?
Like a seven.
Frustrated?
(05:09):
Eight.
Self-critical?
SPEAKER_01 (05:11):
Eight.
Worried?
Probably like even a seven.
How about accomplished?
I'd put that at like a sixbecause I recognized it in the
moment that it was there.
You recognize it?
SPEAKER_00 (05:25):
Did you feel it?
SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
No, actually.
I'd put it like a five.
SPEAKER_00 (05:29):
And to that end, 7.30 a.m., there's a hint of
comfort, but not very much,right?
So what is your comfort levelrating?
SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
I was at least...
all of these feelings in acomfortable location.
So I'll even, I'll give that aseven.
SPEAKER_00 (05:45):
Okay.
And that's nice, right?
That's really important.
What did you do when you werefeeling defeated, tired,
frustrated, self-critical andworried?
What was your immediate action?
Was it to sleep in longer?
Did you call in sick?
Did you make to-do lists?
What was your go-to behavior
SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
when I was done everything I just like I put my
phone down and I just kind oflaid in bed for a few more
minutes and then I just took adeep breath and I got ready for
work and I went to work and Ihad a nail appointment it's
nothing like investing in thatwhen I am tight on funds but I I
(06:26):
went that was my
SPEAKER_00 (06:28):
self-care for my birthday I think that's great So
the two things I've got downhere is laid in bed for an extra
few minutes and went to work andkept my nail appointment, which
I think is fabulous.
You did say something beforethat, which was I did all the
things.
So before you laid in bed for anextra few minutes, was that you
(06:48):
settling bills on your phone?
Yes.
Okay.
I'm going to say his behaviorsettled all the bills kind of
immediately.
Oh,
SPEAKER_01 (06:59):
yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:59):
I'm going to note that down.
Same as every payday.
Settle all the bills immediatelythrough my phone.
Same as every payday.
I think the behavior is asimportant as the thoughts, you
know, because to me, it'sshowing when I just look at the
behavior, I'm thinking thisperson, their nervous system was
engaged and they were stressedout.
(07:21):
They did something veryresponsible so that they could
relax.
They allowed themselves torelax.
And then they thought about whatthey want their day in their
life to look like.
And they said, you know, I needto continue.
The show must go on in a way asscheduled.
So earlier that day at 730, whenyou were feeling defeated,
(07:43):
tired, frustrated, self-criticaland worried, it might be while
you're paying the bills rightbefore you pay the bills.
What were you thinking?
What are some of the thoughtsthat went on in your mind?
SPEAKER_01 (07:56):
I was just thinking about just like all the
decisions that kind of like ledto where all the, like all this
money is going, like what I'mpaying off and just kind of
that.
I feel like, I feel like I'mconstantly like rationalizing as
I'm paying things.
It's like, yep.
Okay.
This has to go here because ofthe, I did like, I chose to do
(08:17):
this and this is this.
And I don't know if that's a wayI'm self-talking myself to kind
of alleviate some of that, Give
SPEAKER_00 (08:25):
me an example of the rationalizing thought.
So I'm paying off things thatare essential or that I needed.
You
SPEAKER_01 (08:32):
know, I'm dropping, I'm putting$300 on this credit
card because I bought a couchand I made a plan on paying it
off.
I made that decision.
I knew this was going to happen.
I budgeted for this.
SPEAKER_00 (08:44):
Yeah.
And the rationalizing is verygood, but I would actually...
put that in the section in thefar right that says alternative
thought, because what you'redoing is you're saying things
that counteract or reduce theintensity of the difficult
(09:06):
feeling.
And that is a very good skill.
Before you do that, I think weneed to figure out what the
difficult thoughts are.
So before you say, you know, Ihad to buy this.
And paying it off is importantwhen you feel defeated.
(09:27):
I imagine there's anotherthought there.
It might even be a bitsubconscious.
So if you had to connect athought to being defeated, what
would that thought be?
SPEAKER_01 (09:37):
It's like I'm in a position where my income is
higher than it's ever been.
And I, you know, I've had to payrent and have had these bills
before and felt the samestruggle making less.
So I think I just feel defeatedbecause it's like, I should be
able to live within my meansbecause my means are more now
(09:58):
than they like one more now thanthey used to be.
And they're not so.
SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
Yeah.
So my income is higher.
So I shouldn't be in the sameplace as earlier in my life.
SPEAKER_01 (10:12):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (10:13):
I'm curious about these initial thoughts, right?
And sometimes it's hard to spendsome time with them and hold
them.
So this first one, you'refeeling defeated because my
income is higher, so I shouldn'tbe in the same place as earlier
in my life.
Now, when you feel self-criticaland frustrated, is it the same
(10:34):
thought or is it anotherthought?
SPEAKER_01 (10:36):
That I have impulse issues and I am overspending.
You know, it's kind of like,this is my own fault.
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
Okay.
So one is I have impulse issues.
I might have impulse issues thatlead to overspending.
SPEAKER_01 (10:52):
Like it's the consequences of my own actions.
It's just like present to me isvery annoyed of past me.
It's
SPEAKER_00 (10:58):
like in that moment.
And when you feel worried, whatthought is connected to that?
So you might say I'm worriedabout, or I'm worried because...
SPEAKER_01 (11:10):
I'm worried about other expenses that'll come up
in the next two weeks before mynext paycheck and how I'm going
to manage to pay those off orpay for things.
You know, I'm worried aboutgroceries or not having enough
of my own money to pay forthings.
SPEAKER_00 (11:28):
Okay, so there will be more expenses coming up
between now and the nextpaycheck and I might not have
enough money to last forgroceries.
Is that in particular, like, doyou think you might not have
enough for food?
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
I would have enough for food, like for my normal,
like normal groceries, no.
But would I have enough to likesurvive?
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (11:53):
Okay.
I'm looking just forclarification about where we're
really at, right?
So I've just rephrased thethought to say, I might not have
enough money to last for myquote unquote normal groceries.
And that is fair, right?
I'll tell you, Kay, I went toFarm Boy the other day, and that
(12:13):
place is so expensive.
But they have these really greatkimchi pancakes, and you get two
of them, and it's like$7.
It's so bananas.
It's so much money.
And it's okay if there's notenough in my account to be able
to buy those.
I'll survive.
(12:34):
But it also comes with feelings,right, if I– really want that
then it signifies something tome right so if you don't have
enough for your normal groceriesand you have just enough to
survive my question to you iswhat does that signify what does
that mean to you
SPEAKER_01 (12:54):
it signifies that i may fall into like other bad
habits specifically eatinghabits if i cannot afford like
protein powder i've been usingor um foods to help make
healthier meals.
Yeah, I think I'm just afraid tofall even deeper into habits I
(13:16):
had when I was living more inpoverty.
SPEAKER_00 (13:20):
Okay.
And when you were living more inpoverty, it sounds like your
relationship to food then andnow has been...
Something you've been grapplingwith.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_01 (13:37):
Definitely.
I would, I do have likebehavioral eating tendencies.
SPEAKER_00 (13:45):
Does that mean like self-soothing, like using food
to soothe yourself when you feelstressed out?
SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
Yeah, just food to cope, whether that's like stress
or anger or sadness orcelebrating, like just...
just in unhealthy ways where I'mnot being kind to my body.
SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
Okay.
And if you didn't have enoughmoney for normal groceries,
meaning nutritional things, youmight buy more survival food,
convenience food, or you mightsay, you know, fuck it, I'm just
going to get junk food.
And what would the consequenceof that be?
(14:30):
So you fall into these pooreating habits.
What does that then mean for youover the next few weeks or
months?
SPEAKER_01 (14:39):
It's fear of like not feeling great physically,
being groggy, bloated, like justnot feeling well if I'm eating
high processed foods.
Yeah.
Which is like the first thing,right?
If I don't feel great, I don'twant to move around.
And then there's like, weightgain involved in that as well
and and i'm trying to to notworry about numbers or to to not
(15:04):
worry about like my my weight umjust about my health
SPEAKER_00 (15:07):
so you're saying if i don't have enough money i
can't buy nutritional food andthen you get to it sounds also
it's not just about the exactmoney it's also a headspace you
enter right you're like If I canonly afford processed food, I
can't maintain a kind ofhealthiness that I want.
And in that headspace, you'resaying I feel physically unwell
(15:30):
in my body, but also it affectsmy body image.
It affects how I see myself.
Is that right?
Yes.
Okay.
And now this might feel like ahard question, but when you
don't feel good about your body,what tends to happen?
Do you disengage from people?
Do you worry that you'll losepeople?
(15:51):
I think there's another kind offear in there.
I
SPEAKER_01 (15:53):
think it's just like my own body dysmorphia and like
that coming up.
It's more, yeah, it's reallyjust more like I've come so far.
I don't want to...
SPEAKER_00 (16:07):
Go
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
back.
Get back.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (16:09):
Yeah.
So part of that fear here is...
I'll regress in my progressaround...
I'm trying to figure out whatthis is called.
Is this self-love?
Is this healthier lifestylechoices?
(16:31):
Fear of falling back intounhealthy, damaging habits.
Okay, so I'll regress.
I'll fall back into unhealthyand damaging...
habits.
Now, you'll notice I put theselittle arrows underneath the
original thought.
I might not have enough money tolast for my normal groceries.
(16:55):
And that's because I askedfollow up questions to help
understand a bit more of thecore of those thoughts.
I'm going to do the same thingfor some of the other thoughts
that you shared.
My hope is for us to understandbetter the range of things that
you experience when you feeldefeated, tired, frustrated,
(17:19):
self-critical, and worried, andparticularly around money,
right?
So the first thing that you hadsaid was my income is higher, so
I shouldn't be in the same placeas earlier in my life.
When in your life are youtalking about?
SPEAKER_01 (17:34):
About three years ago, I was...
not making that much money andnot doing well in a
SPEAKER_00 (17:43):
lot of areas of my life.
So when, when you say toyourself, my income is higher
now, so I shouldn't be in thesame place as I was three years
ago.
And I'm saying, let's say youhadn't made much progress in
three years.
What would that say about you?
I
SPEAKER_01 (17:59):
just like irresponsible.
SPEAKER_00 (18:02):
Yeah, I am irresponsible.
That sounds like a clear kind ofself-criticism, doesn't it?
And there's a lot of feelingscoming up for you.
And I wonder if you want to,what are the, do you want to
share?
Is there like an image or athought that's associated with
(18:23):
some of the feelings?
SPEAKER_01 (18:25):
So it's really just a lot of feelings.
I don't know if shame is eventhe word, but like maybe just
things I did not process throughthat difficult time, you know,
which was a consequence of likeme being irresponsible and like
(18:47):
me being in a fight or flightkind of state for a while.
SPEAKER_00 (18:51):
When you say fight or flight response, you're
talking about...
being in survival mode andresponding to something
traumatic or very activating inyour environment.
And I wonder if here there's athought about like when you see
(19:12):
that, oh, I have more income andI've spent it all that there's a
fear or a thought that I'llnever escape my trauma or I'll
never be I'll never be able tomake grounded decisions,
something like that.
Does that come up
SPEAKER_01 (19:29):
for you?
It does, yeah.
It does feel like that,especially when it's...
Yeah, I feel like I've beenrecognizing that a lot of my
history was spent activated.
And the more aware that I am,the more...
(19:52):
aware I am of when I getactivated now, and that's been
happening more often.
So
SPEAKER_00 (19:58):
it seems to me like when you say, you know, this is
the consequence of my ownactions, it might have impulse
issues that lead tooverspending.
You've kind of already told methat that might be somewhat
factual.
And so I'm just putting a notebeside it, because when
(20:20):
something is factual and It'snot a thought that we want to
mess with.
And so when you say there willbe more expenses coming up
between now and the nextpaycheck, given that it's
December, I'm also gonna saythat's somewhat factual.
(20:41):
So the things that are factual,I'm gonna not touch them because
they are true.
However, I think the things thatare more useful for us to engage
with are some of the things thatyou see in this top area and
particularly some of thethoughts that have arrows beside
(21:02):
them.
So I'm going to read them and Iwant you to think about which is
the most salient thought.
Salient meaning the mostprominent thought.
And this would be your hotthought.
This is the one that's mostprominent and driving.
a lot of the difficult feelingsyou had in the second column.
(21:24):
So I'll read them and you tellme which one you want to pick.
My income is higher now, so Ishouldn't be in the same place
as I was three years ago.
I am still irresponsible.
I might never escape my traumahistory.
I might not have enough money tolast for my quote unquote normal
(21:45):
groceries.
I am susceptible to falling backinto poor eating habits.
I'll feel physically unwell inmy body, and that will affect my
body image.
I'll regress.
I'll fall back into unhealthyand damaging habits.
SPEAKER_01 (22:02):
Escaping trauma.
SPEAKER_00 (22:04):
Yeah.
So you woke up on the morning ofDecember 1st.
You saw your paycheck come intoyour debit account.
But by 7.30 a.m., you also paidyour rent and other bills with
interest.
Very little left.
You felt defeated, tired,frustrated, self-critical and
worried.
What did you do?
Well, you're responsible.
(22:25):
You settled all the billsimmediately.
But you had some difficultthoughts to contend with.
And the hot thought that we'reworking with right now is a fear
that I might never escape mytrauma history.
So...
The next column over is evidencethat supports this idea.
(22:47):
So now we're evaluating yourthought.
And you've kind of already toldme one piece of evidence that
supports this idea that you'llnever escape your trauma
history, right?
So that evidence is moneyproblems have followed me even
(23:13):
with more income.
What other kind of evidence thatyou think about that suggests
you might never escape yourtrauma history?
And I think we're talkingparticularly with poverty,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (23:26):
With this one, yeah.
I'd say there's more evidence inthe sense that I have already
declared bankruptcy three yearsago, three, four years ago.
And that was a very like goodlike turning point that i you
(23:47):
know a lot of um growth happenedso just just feeling like i went
through all that and feelingkind of back there again is
frustrating and it just it to meshows um just a recurrence of
behavior um like despite likekind of doing the big thing,
(24:08):
like declaring bankruptcy anddoing all the work that that
entails to be like back in thatplace of struggle a couple of
years later, feels likeevidence.
SPEAKER_00 (24:22):
Yeah.
And between three or four yearsago and now, have there been
other events, incidences,experiences, that also made you
feel like the financial stressand the impact of poverty is
(24:42):
following you still present?
SPEAKER_01 (24:46):
I mean, I'm seeing it happen to my mom right now as
well.
So that's frustrating.
SPEAKER_00 (24:54):
Yeah.
So I see financial difficultythat continues to follow my mom
around.
Is there anything else?
SPEAKER_01 (25:07):
Yeah, I think it's just like, you know, I identify
these issues three plus yearsago.
Why am I still dealing withthem?
So like,
SPEAKER_00 (25:13):
that's
SPEAKER_01 (25:14):
frustrating.
SPEAKER_00 (25:16):
So one of your pieces of evidence that supports
the idea that you might notescape your trauma history with
poverty is that I'm notcurrently where I'd like to be.
Yes.
Financially.
And I think another piece ofevidence is very clear that
there isn't very much in youraccount at the moment.
SPEAKER_01 (25:39):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (25:40):
Okay.
Now we're moving to the nextcolumn, which is evidence that
does not support the hotthought.
So this is evidence thatsuggests that you could escape
your trauma history withpoverty.
It might not be escape, but itmight be more like I'm able to
put the history behind me,evidence that I've been able to
(26:04):
grow, evidence that I've becomemore stable, things like that.
SPEAKER_01 (26:12):
I may not have much in my checking account or my
savings account, but I do haveRSVs and like a healthy amount
of them.
So that's something that I don'tthink anyone in my family has or
potentially probably will everhave.
So it's...
it's kind of a thing and it's socapitalist, but it's just like,
(26:35):
well, I have this, so I'm notworth nothing.
Like, and it's like, it'sfrustrating to think that, but
it's, that's, it's helped me.
SPEAKER_00 (26:43):
Okay.
Let's not criticize yourself forhaving made plans that will then
serve you.
Right.
You're wanting to escape.
poverty so you can't you'regoing to have to work on
(27:04):
criticizing or not criticizingyourself when you make steps
toward doing that so you haveregistered retirement savings
great yes what are other signsthat suggest you could escape
this trauma history with povertyfor example you have a bigger
(27:25):
credit history now Do you have asafer home now than you have in
the past?
Have you experienced morestability in the last three or
four years than you had prior tothat?
SPEAKER_01 (27:35):
Yes, I would say I have a stable home and a place
to rest and a place to escapein.
In the past, I would have copedwith the stress through
substances or throughdistractions.
(27:57):
in general.
I think there's the evidencewould show it's like I am facing
my challenges more head on now
SPEAKER_00 (28:06):
than I used to.
So I have a stable home, a placeto rest and escape in.
And I think there was a secondpiece there that says I choose
rest and stability oversubstance use.
Is that
SPEAKER_01 (28:22):
accurate?
Yeah, like over, you know, overescaping with you know,
substances or just otherdistractions.
SPEAKER_00 (28:30):
Ah, okay.
So I choose to, I guess, refuelby leaning into rest and the
stability I do have overescaping with substances.
(28:57):
I wonder if you have one, maybeeven two more pieces of evidence
that support the idea that youcould escape poverty or your
history with poverty.
SPEAKER_01 (29:11):
Like the steps I've made, like in terms of starting
therapy again and just kind ofrecognizing that, you know, the
financial struggles I have arenot, like they don't feel good
but it's like, I don't knowwhat's that, like healthy debt
(29:32):
or like healthy financialstruggles.
Like it's just kind of, it justfeels like I'm in a tight spot,
but that's because I'm beingresponsible.
It's just kind of like-
SPEAKER_00 (29:46):
Yes, I like that, totally.
So I'm moving us over to thenext column.
That's about an alternative ormore balanced thought.
And you said a beautiful thing.
You said- I have healthy debt.
I'm paying off things that areessential.
Now, it's not just your rentthat you paid, right?
(30:07):
What are the other things you'repaying off that are essential?
SPEAKER_01 (30:11):
Credit card that I just got and put like a couch on
and like bedding and just thingsfor the home.
I recently, my home situationchanged.
So my partner and I, now justlive together where we before
we're staying with my mom so wewent from not paying rent at all
(30:32):
to you know paying rent everymonth and that that happened
with little notice it was a itwas an opportunity that arised
so we went from like not payingrent and then it was like okay
in three weeks we we pay rentnow like so it was and i had
savings and but then we also hadum plans so like things just
(30:54):
depleted very quickly.
Like my financial situationchanged faster than I had time,
than I felt like I had time toprepare for it.
SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
Yes.
Okay.
So I've got three alternativethoughts that I'm going to read
to you that I've gleaned justfrom what you're saying.
So I have healthy debt.
I'm paying off things that areessential like couch and
bedding.
My expenses have changedsuddenly and they're wasn't
enough time to prepare for this.
(31:26):
A hard period can be part of thebigger plan and anticipated,
right?
But it still feels hard when itshows up.
I'm thinking about any otheralternative or balanced thoughts
you might have that would behelpful in this kind of
situation.
I
SPEAKER_01 (31:45):
have a lot more, like I'm aware of a lot more
resources than I used to be.
And I've used them in terms ofmy struggle.
What kinds of resources?
Like using my benefits toactually get support or to help
(32:07):
cope with
SPEAKER_00 (32:08):
things and talk things out.
And so it's not just that youhad them and didn't access them.
Now you have more knowledge ofand access right to the
resources like work benefits andthese can help you in what way
with long-term financialplanning or with self-care which
(32:31):
are you thinking or both
SPEAKER_01 (32:33):
both really um the financial planning i i kind of
had the moment where I'm like, Ineed to use that service.
Like I do a financial planningsupport and I should use it or I
want to use it.
And then the other thing is likeusing my benefits to access
therapy and to access thingsthat help regulate my nervous
(32:55):
system, like physio and massagetherapy and just really trying
to take care of myself.
So it's,
SPEAKER_00 (33:03):
yeah.
Yes.
I want you to look at the hotthought that was, I might never
escape my trauma history withpoverty.
What's a direct alternativeresponse or reframing of that
statement?
What's another way to say thatthat's not unrealistically
hopeful?
(33:23):
I,
SPEAKER_01 (33:25):
yeah, growing from it is something that I'd really
like to do and it's notsomething I've seen anyone do.
in my family, so it's difficult.
SPEAKER_00 (33:36):
Yeah.
So I'm growing by workingthrough my trauma and it's not
something that's been modeled tome.
All right.
(33:56):
Okay.
You've got a number ofalternative thoughts here.
I'd like you to pick one.
that stands out to you that youalso have the strongest belief
in.
So one that is not just, itsounds good, but you're like,
yeah, that really helps.
That makes me feel betterbecause I believe it to be true.
(34:20):
So I'll read them all from thebottom.
I now have knowledge and accessto more resources like work
benefits that can help withlong-term planning and
self-care.
The hard period.
can be part of the bigger planand anticipated, but it still
feels hard when it shows up.
My expenses have changedsuddenly and there wasn't enough
(34:42):
time to prepare for this.
I have healthy debt.
I'm paying off things that areessential.
I'm growing by working throughmy trauma and it's not something
that's been modeled to me.
I might not escape my traumahistory, but I can learn to live
with it in a more manageable waygrowing from it.
SPEAKER_01 (35:02):
The last one you said.
SPEAKER_00 (35:03):
All right.
So what I'm going to do is listthe feelings again, and I want
you to not worry about how yourated them before.
It just does not matter how yourated them before.
When you say to yourself, Imight not escape my trauma
history, but I can learn to livewith it in a more manageable way
by growing from it.
(35:24):
How would you rate defeated?
SPEAKER_01 (35:26):
Like a
SPEAKER_00 (35:27):
five.
SPEAKER_01 (35:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:30):
What about tired?
SPEAKER_01 (35:31):
Six.
SPEAKER_00 (35:32):
Frustrated.
SPEAKER_01 (35:33):
Five.
SPEAKER_00 (35:34):
Self-critical.
Four.
Worried.
SPEAKER_01 (35:39):
Like a five.
SPEAKER_00 (35:40):
Accomplished.
SPEAKER_01 (35:41):
Six.
SPEAKER_00 (35:42):
Comfort.
SPEAKER_01 (35:43):
So like a seven.
SPEAKER_00 (35:44):
Yeah, goes up a notch.
So Kay, here is your thoughtrecord.
And I'd like for us to have aconversation just for a few
minutes about some of yourreflections.
How was this process for you?
SPEAKER_01 (35:57):
Pretty good.
I think it was very necessary.
Yeah.
I mean, challenging, but stillgood, necessary.
SPEAKER_00 (36:04):
Yeah.
Do you feel like processing inthis way is good for you?
Or does it leave out too much?
SPEAKER_01 (36:15):
I like it.
For me, my...
I don't know if it's coming fromADHD, but I...
I do like having things kind ofmapped out.
It does help me to stay ontrack.
I do like the alternativethoughts because I find I do
that a lot and it is nice toname them and to be able to see
(36:39):
it written down as analternative thought
SPEAKER_00 (36:41):
is helpful.
The only challenge I think iswhen we jump to the alternative
thought too quickly and we'renot giving ourselves a moment to
say, What are the deep thingsthat I'm feeling and processing
here?
You know, because those things,they're not easy.
They're hard.
(37:02):
They bring up shame,embarrassment, et cetera.
So they're hard to talk about.
They're hard to talk about.
Okay, I want to thank you foryour vulnerability, for your
sharing today, and for talkingabout something that is so
deeply personal.
And I think...
(37:23):
other people are going tobenefit from hearing you talk it
through this way.
I know I did.
And I was the therapist in thiscontext.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
And I'm glad it was helpful.
I'll see you next time.
SPEAKER_01 (37:41):
That's good.
Thanks.
SPEAKER_00 (37:43):
And that's the CBT dive for today.
Thank you for joining us as wedemonstrate therapy skills for
the real world.
Please subscribe wherever youget your podcasts and follow us
on social media.
The CBT Dive is intended foreducational purposes only and
not as a replacement forindividual therapy.
See you next time.
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