This week we welcome Heather Tenuto to the podcast. Before taking on her current role as CEO of The Muse Group (owners of The Muse and Fairygodboss), Heather spent her early career as a public school teacher before pivoting to a range of sales enablement and revenue growth roles, including VP of Channels at ShoreTel, VP of Sales (SMB Services) at Office Depot, and Chief Revenue Officer of Zift Solutions.
Topics include: employer brand as a strategy vs. tactic, employer brand ambassadors, how to identify and activate employer brand ambassadors, the importance of incorporating regular employee feedback into employer brand management, DEI beyond gender and ethnic identity, and the value and power of introverts to an organization.
Heather Tenuto
CEO, The Muse Group
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the changing state of talent
acquisition, where your hosts,graham Thornton and Martin Kred,
share their unfiltered takes onwhat's happening in the world
of talent acquisition today.
Each week brings new guests whoshare their stories on the
tools, trends and technologiescurrently impacting the changing
state of talent acquisition.
Have feedback or want to jointhe show?
(00:21):
Head on over to changestateio.
And now on to this week'sepisode.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Alright, and we are back with another episode of the
changing state of talentacquisition podcast, Extremely
excited for our next guest,Heather Tanuto.
Ceo of the Muse Group.
Heather, great to have you heretoday.
Let's start with an easyquestion what led you to your
current role as the CEO of theMuse and how do you typically
(00:47):
spend your days?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Well, first of all, thanks for having me.
I'm super excited to be on theshow.
So I've been the CEO of theMuse Group, which is we have two
platforms the Muse and FairyGodbaugh.
So I've been CEO sinceSeptember and it's been a great
journey so far.
I started my career in techsales mostly because I was an
English major and was lookingfor something to do after
(01:11):
graduating with that, so Istarted in sales.
I took a brief pause in mycareer and I taught high school
which is a fun story.
We can talk a little bit aboutthat later and then I came back
from my educational career,still loving sales, still loving
coaching and teaching.
I started a sales enablementcompany that was very focused on
(01:32):
helping companies that were inthat 10 to 15 million dollar
range but stuck there, and sothat's where I focused for the
rest of my career helpingcompanies break through that
hurdle and having good success,good exits.
So I did that until my lastrole, which is similar.
I gave a chief revenue officerat a company called ZIF
(01:52):
Solutions and spent four and ahalf years there, and we had a
great exit recently.
And then I got contacted by thefounder of the Muse and the
story ended well.
We had great synergy, and hereI am.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
That's awesome.
Well, I you know Marty knowsthis but my parents are both
public school teachers.
I have a very special place inmy heart for anyone that is
willing to enter the educationalspace, so a huge thank you for
your service there Awesome.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, you know I'm going to dive into something
that I know is near and dear toMarty's heart.
You spent a lot of time, or wespent a lot of time talking
about your EVP, employerbranding, and you know, one of
the things that kind of stoodout to us is one of your release
and LinkedIn posts.
You know, you kind of posed aninteresting question about you
know whether an organization isusing their EVP as you know
(02:45):
quote unquote a tactic or astrategy.
So now I'm wondering, can you,you know, share a little bit
more about the difference andyou know, maybe, what is?
What are some of the keydifferences between you know,
using your EVP as a strategyversus a tactic?
And well, how can organizationsbecome a little bit more
strategic and leveraging theiremployer brand?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Yeah, it's an important question and it's
something I really didn't startthinking about until I took this
role, which is my first time asa CEO.
So we see a lot of companiesdecide, hey, it'll be easier to
find the talent we need if wehave a better employer brand.
So you know, let's go get one.
And that's really a hard thingto do from scratch, especially
(03:29):
when it's not coming from thetop.
So, as a CEO, I see howimportant it is that being a
great employer and understandingthe employer you have to be in
order to attract the talent youwant.
It's a strategic issue and soif it starts at the top, if it's
an agenda item in everyleadership meeting, it becomes
(03:50):
much easier for your talent teamjust to portray what already
exists versus making somethingup which then just becomes a
tactic.
So what companies who want tobe successful in this have to do
is make it an initiative thatruns through the company but
absolutely starts at the top,and that's something I took for
(04:12):
granted until I got higher up inthe leadership ranks and
realized how important it is.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
Wow, I love this.
Yeah Well, this is, you know,speaking to my heart, as Graham
said.
You know, I think a lot oforganizations, as you mentioned,
treat brand as something thatthey create, and we always
encourage our clients to thinkabout it more, as something that
exists, whether or not you'repaying attention to it or not,
(04:37):
and I think one of the upshotsof that is it's not something
that you can suddenly startpaying attention to and expect
to serve your organizationovernight.
You know the strong, clearbrands of the world, just say
brands more generally.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Are brands that?
Speaker 4 (04:51):
have been talking about in serious, thoughtful
ways for a long time and theyare topics of conversation at
the boardroom on a regular basis.
It's a bit like joining a goodsalesperson and having spent no
time networking and thensuddenly deciding that you want
to build a pipeline and helpingthat somewhere you're going to
get a lot of people coming in.
(05:11):
You know, if you really want astrong employer brand, you
really have to put them work in,and it's a long-term process,
not something you can just kindof spin up.
Is that a fair?
Would you ever be pushed backto that?
I mean, is that a fair way ofcapturing what you mean by sure?
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
I like the analogy to salesbecause you know that's how I
grew up.
You also mentioned the board.
Right and like you have so manycompanies today with boards
that are very operational,integral to their operations,
and it has to be something thateveryone agrees that is worth
investing in and that there'salignment about what the brand
(05:50):
should be across the board andthe leadership team.
Or, you know, maybe it startswith like what kind of talent we
want to attract and who do wehave to be able to do that.
Very important for sure, and Ithink that company is that
invest there, whether it's withdollars or, you know, leadership
meeting time are going to dobetter at this and their talent
(06:13):
teams are going to do better atthis, for sure.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I do think it kind of comes down
to a word that's unfortunatelyoverused and I think people kind
of glaze over when they hear it.
But it is an important concept.
This idea of authenticity andthis idea of who are we as an
organization, how do we treatour employees.
That's something that takes alot of thought and care to
(06:40):
actually execute in a strategicway.
And you do see organizationswho are like pardon my French,
but oh shit, we need to hire abunch of people.
What messages can we put outthere?
What bait can we put out therein the world that will attract a
bunch of fish to this hook thatwe have and that may actually
work in the short term?
(07:00):
You know, you may actually puta message out there that
succeeds in attracting andfilling the seats that you need
to fill in the short term, butof course, that's a very limited
approach because people willeventually discover what it's
really like to work for yourorganization and ultimately that
will undermine your largerstrategic goals as an
organization.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Well, that's right and it connects to what you said
before.
Like, your brand is out there,whether you've helped curate it
or not, and so if you're puttingsomething out there that's not
aligned with what's already outthere or that's going to be out
there soon, if you've hiredwithout that authenticity, it's
going to fall apart prettyquickly.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think this is anatural segue to another topic
and this is this idea ofemployer brand ambassadors.
You know, I think a lot of ouraudience knows I grew up in the
consumer brand space and inconsumer branding we talk about
brand ambassadors and these areconnected to people that are
actually hired to represent yourbrand.
(07:58):
You know, if you think about atrade show, the hire attractive
looking people that somehowembody what the brand images and
they are out there to promoteand represent the brand.
So I think it's easy analogy tomake.
I understand the employer brandambassador might be.
I think one of the bigdifferences that comes to mind
is that employer brandambassadors are full time
(08:21):
employees.
They don't have, you know,unlike the consumer brand
ambassadors, who's that mayactually be their full time job.
These are people actually haveto do work for the organization
outside of representing theorganization as an employer.
So with that in mind, I'm justwondering if you could share a
little bit about how you thinkof the role of employer brand
ambassadors.
How do organizations go aboutselecting the right folks to be
(08:43):
those?
And you know how do you balancethe roles of an employer brand
ambassador with the day job.
You know that keeps the lightson.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Yeah.
So that's a great question.
I think there's three partsthat.
The first is we already talkedabout.
Like your, your EVP has to be astrategy, not a tactic, if
you're going to take this stepand recruit people to be an
ambassador, because they willstill see through that pretty
quickly.
The second part is when you'rechoosing people or they're
(09:12):
choosing themselves to fill thatrole.
I think there has to be anunderstanding and a belief that
making sure the right people arecoming into the organization is
going to make it better foreverybody, and so people who
believe that are going to have alot more energy for what's
(09:34):
required in this role, but liketo do it because, hey, it's
going to be somebody maybegiving me some free time to do
it, or I've been asked to dothis and maybe it's a way to get
to the next level of my career.
I think we've got to convincepeople and this should be easy
that everyone benefits whenwe're bringing in right, fit
(09:54):
talent to the organization andit's going to you know, it's
going to raise the tides of allthe votes.
So that's number two, and Ithink that that's about great
messaging, great coaching, butalso finding people who are very
invested in the success of thebusiness.
And then as far as, like youknow, obviously people have jobs
(10:16):
, I think we just have to do agood space, a good job of
creating space with employeesthat can be ambassadors, to make
sure we're not overwhelmingthem, because you certainly
don't want an overwhelmedambassador out there talking
about how great work, lifebalance is at the company.
So doing something to createspace for that person and making
(10:38):
it part of their roledescription and how their, how
their measured, how theirperformance is measured, I think
is the only fair way to do it.
I hope that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah, I think that does.
So you know I'm curious,heather, so can we talk?
Maybe give us some examples ofyou know an employer ambassador
Program in practice?
Right, so I can't sounds likeyou know find people there.
You know passionate aboutorganizations.
Obviously you know certain one,certainly one of the key lovers
.
So you know I'm curious likefor an organization that you
(11:10):
know, maybe a bit or small, thatyou know is thinking through.
You know ways that they canhelp, you know, better utilize
your use, their employers tosort of represent.
You know body, their brand.
You know publicly, whether it'sacross social channels.
You know, at these events, youknow what does that look like in
practice?
You know, are you seeing that?
No employers you know oftendon't know where to start.
(11:31):
Or you know, talk a little bit.
You know more about what thisconcept of you know and a brand
ambassador looks like in the dayto day, maybe even that you
know at the news sure.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
No, that makes the yeah for sure.
So I think where it starts isthe change your thinking about.
Like this ambassador is notjust this person that is going
to go out and say great thingsabout your company.
I think that person needs to beconnected to the evolution of
the company and the brand of thecompany.
So think of it as a two waystreet.
Maybe there is A group togetherthat's helping the leadership
(12:06):
team make decisions about how weevolve the brand or how we
evolve Initiatives at thecompany to be able to create the
environment that is going toget us the talent we want, right
?
So a feedback group or focusgroup based on a few, on a few
initiatives are important.
I think the n I is a goodexample.
(12:26):
If you have a d n I focus groupat your company, we want that
group to give us feedback on howit's going and things we can do
to create a better environmentand also help us Find more
people to come into theorganization by by being an
ambassador for for a brand.
So it's not just the outwardpart, it's having a role in how
(12:49):
we make decisions and how weevolve as a workplace community.
So I think that's the place tostart.
Who's that group?
Let's start working on thethings that will advance us
internally, and then step two ishow to?
How does this group help usspread the message?
Once we've got thoseinitiatives in place?
Speaker 4 (13:09):
I really love that idea.
You know, often when we'rehelping clients think through or
define for lack of a betterterm there Evp's, you know we
make a point at the verybeginning of the project of
establishing a core group thatdoesn't include just people in
hr or t?
A but includes people inmarketing and from all aspects
of the organization.
(13:29):
Of course the reason we do thatis because I'm then at the end
of the project we have a coregroup that feels like they co
created what you know the publicface of our employer brand is
going to be.
But I think what you'resuggesting is almost taking that
idea a step further, becauseoftentimes those people are
executives, their senior levelpeople in the organization, with
(13:50):
good reason, you know.
I think that's make sense tohave those folks in the room,
but often at the end of theproject then we're like okay,
here's what our evp is.
Now we need some testimonialvideos that we gotta find people
to actually bring this to life.
Those folks can actually bepart of the process.
You know I'm not saying they'llbe in every weekly meeting
about the evp, but I think thesooner you can involve these
(14:11):
people that were later beidentified as employer brand
ambassadors, the better.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
I don't know if you have any thoughts about that I
mean, I think that's a, I thinkyou said it, that's exactly
right.
What part can they play increating the evp, or helping at
least guide what it is today,before we ask them to go out and
proselytize on our behalf?
Yeah, sure, like, if you thinkabout, you know it's an election
year, right, like you, you'vegotta believe in your candidate
(14:37):
and feel like you know yourissues are being represented
before you're gonna starthanging posters and knocking on
doors.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Yeah, yeah.
I don't know if we're gonna gointo politics today, but you
need some more time if you doyeah, yeah, no, I do like I'm
thinking like, alright, so youknow, in relation to our
projects, marty, you know,trying to look at this from a
consumer lens, right, so I, youknow an apple brand and that you
(15:06):
know a consumer brandambassador, people that just
love apple, you know, line upoutside of the store like I'm
sure I'm some levels.
You know, what we're trying todo in our brand projects is no,
in that first phase of four,take a like what do people feel?
Like your brand exists,regardless of whether you're
doing brand studies, right, soit's.
You know you're going to thatIn our standpoint of four step
(15:30):
process.
Like who are the people thatare, you know, most
representative of?
You know some of the supportingpillars of ep and how can we
remember, you know, three monthsinto a project to go back to
jim, bob, or you know, mary,kate and pepper them?
You know some of the questionsthat support a word and
innovative organization.
(15:51):
And here's why I'm like, hey,we support work life balance,
but like, in what particularways?
And so, in a way, like I thinkI'm gonna bring a bastard, just
making sure that you have aclean connection between some of
the data that you're getting inyour ep projects, in your
candidate surveys, and you'rechoosing how to sort of direct
(16:11):
some of the employer stories ina way that you know resonates
with your talent.
Is that a bad analogy, marty?
How did I kind of Well.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
I think that's right.
You know, I actually where Istarted this conversation about
consumer brand ambassadors.
I actually feel like thatalmost cheapens the image of an
employer brand ambassadorbecause you know you can find,
post things on Craigslist,frankly, for people to be quote,
unquote consumer brandambassadors that hand out free
energy drinks at, you know,sporting events and stuff like
(16:41):
that.
It's a job that pays $10 anhour.
The person may not care at allabout the brand they're not
necessarily the folks that arecamping outside the Apple store
who are truly passionate aboutit.
You know, in the case ofemployer, brand ambassadors.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
There's something a lot more authentic and genuine
going on at least I would hopeso no, I don't think that's
necessarily a bad analogy.
The other thing I would sayjust for our audiences.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
You know, I think an important component when you're
thinking about your developingan EVP and I know Heather just
touched on this is, yeah, you doneed to bring in the people who
might be the employer brandambassadors early in the process
if you can, and that can be assimple as you know, when you're
developing an EVP or at leastwhen we do it we come up with a
(17:26):
few different options and thenwe put them in front of
employees and say what do youthink about this?
Does this accurately capturewhy you like to work for our
organization?
And you can quickly thenidentify the folks who say yes,
that doesn't capture it and thisis why I love working for you.
And then later you have a poolof people who you can say well,
(17:46):
we've got 100 people who saidthe winning EVP that we chose to
take forward to the publicmarket represents how they feel
about us.
And they wrote eloquently in thetext box about how great we are
.
You can speak to the core ideasor the pillars that are under
scrutiny of our employer brand,and so by doing that, this is
not hard, it's just simplysurvey and at the end, of the
(18:08):
survey asking him would you bewilling to speak publicly about
us as an employer?
That's one simple way, I think,of identifying employer brand
ambassadors in an early stage inthe process.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Yeah, and we get companies that come to us that
haven't spent time on their EVPand we help them through the
process that you just described.
Like it's not in depth, that'snot really what we do, it's what
you guys do, but we have a wayto get them to start thinking
about it, and it starts withgetting feedback from their
teams.
Like that's where we feel likeour role is in it, to make sure
(18:41):
we're supporting authenticity,and so especially companies in
the mid market may have notspent quite enough time here.
We try to help them get started.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, that is great.
Well, I want to pivot a littlebit because it's a topic that I
was very interesting to cover.
So we talk a lot about DEI,heather and obviously the muse,
very God boss, the whole groupthere has very unique
demographics across yourproperties.
(19:10):
But another topic you've kindof been vocal about is they need
to expand DEI efforts toconsider other forms of
diversity beyond gender andethnic identity.
So one point that you made wastalking about, I believe, the
ability to, or the missedopportunity just to, empower
introverts right, who contributemaybe some less obvious ways.
(19:31):
So I'm curious can you maybeshare a little bit more about
your interest in this topicspecifically?
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Yeah, for sure, and this goes back to my teacher
days.
So I think, like I taught in ahard to staff high school I had
maybe five classes a day with 37students in each class and as a
teacher like you get presentedwith this group of personalities
and you can't just be like,well, there's a bunch of kids
(19:59):
that don't like to raise theirhands, so I'm just going to
ignore them, right, like you andyou've all had teachers like
this like they change the deskaround, they they call on people
who don't talk as much, theycreate exercises so that
everyone can get involved.
They put you in a group with.
You know in groups that tosupport your learning style.
And so, as a teacher andgetting my degree in education
(20:22):
and being in the classroom, Ilearned all these strategies
about how to make sure theclassroom we were hearing all
the voices in the classroom andthen also making sure different
learning styles were all able toadvance.
And that was the job and it washard and it was wonderful all
(20:42):
at the same time.
And then you take a step intocorporate America and it's like
none of that happens anymore,right?
It's just like here's the job,no matter who you are, this is
what we expect and go, and weknow that most people aren't
going to identify as someone whomay need a little bit more help
because they're shy or or theyyou know, they just live in it
(21:06):
and and we don't hear from themvery often.
I had a CEO back when I workedat M5 Networks.
His name is Dan Hoffman, whowas a master at this.
Like he felt like the quietestpeople have the best ideas
because they're listening toeverybody and they're
formulating while the rest of usare like screaming all over
each other.
And they have the best ideasand if you don't create an
(21:29):
environment where you're goingto get the best out of them,
like you're leaving innovationon the table.
And so he was a master at that.
And actually, after we soldthat company, he often started a
technology company thatactually facilitates getting
everyone to participate equallyin a meeting, which is really
cool, and we can talk aboutanother time.
(21:49):
Anyway, with my experience withall this, I just realized that
not everyone is in tune, as I ambecause of my experiences, and
I think leaders just don't knowwhat they're missing if they're
not getting the best out of thepeople who might not be the
first to speak up.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
Wow, I really love this.
As an introvert myself, I can.
You know.
I just have, frankly, not greatmemories of primary school.
It's just like the first day ofschool, any kind of new
beginning.
Oh, we have to do theseicebreaker activities and yeah,
I mean, I think the point iswell taken that we have a school
system maybe that's changingslowly in a workplace default
(22:31):
that is built around the needsof extroverts, and even to the
extent that we may be nowconsidering that there are
introverts in the room that havedifferent needs, it almost can
come across as well.
How do we coax this introvertinto acting like an extrovert,
you know, rather than actuallyjust allowing them to be who
(22:51):
they are, which is someone whomay be very quiet?
You know, growing up, what youjust said resonates really
strongly with me, because I wasnot someone who raised my hand
often, but at some point I don'tremember what grade this was
Someone said you know, martydoesn't speak much, but you know
, when he does, the whole roomgets quiet and everyone listens
because it's probably somethingimportant.
(23:12):
You know, and I think there's alot of that that happens in the
workplace, and so I think it'sjust really encouraging to hear
someone thinking about diversityoutside of the usual ways that
we think about it, which are, ofcourse, very important, but
this is, I think, a longoverlooked way.
Last thing I'll mention and youmay have already read this book
, heather, but there's a reallygreat book, I think it's called
(23:34):
the Power of Introverts orsomething like that, or the
Secret Power of Introverts.
I think the author's name isSusan King which makes a real
case for, you know, cultivatingthis type of, let's say,
neurological diversity inschools and workplaces.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
I have not read the book, but I've definitely heard
of that book.
My he'll kill me for saying itmy husband I'm an extrovert, my
husband's an introvert and whatyou said resonates like.
When he says something, it'spowerful.
He's also spending a lot oftime listening right and is
formulating a really goodopinion based on what he hears.
I think extroverts tend to benot as good at listening, and so
(24:11):
there's really untappedpotential in teams when there's
both introverts and extrovertsat the table, and it's the job
of the leader to make surethey're getting those employees
what they need and being able toextract what they think,
because we all want to innovateand introverts tend to have the
best ideas, in my opinion.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
Hear that, Graham.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
I do, and as a leader I don't know.
Marty, I gotta tell you like Ithink part of the reason we have
this podcast is becauseeveryone wants to get you to
speak a little bit more and likein a nice comfortable
environment.
So I hear that it's on on.
Well, I do want to get back totopics that are certainly
(24:55):
interesting to, I think, thebroader market here.
Heather, and I think you'vekind of took a new role at CEO
at the Muse and a bit of a newindustry.
So I'm curious, hey, I'd loveto know how it's going.
But I'm also interested for ouraudience has anything?
What surprised you most aboutbeing CEO at the Muse, maybe?
Or what surprised you mostabout the town acquisition
(25:17):
industry, if anything at all?
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I think the thing this is gonna sound like you
know I'm just putting on happyyears here but the thing that
surprised me the most is howwelcoming everybody was.
I suspected there would be alot of raised eyebrows, of a CEO
coming into the Muse without alot of experience in town and
acquisition.
But everyone, includingyourselves when I met you, were
(25:43):
very helpful in pointing me inthe right direction and helping
me understand the industry andthat was great and it made it a
lot easier for me to get up tospeed.
Like becoming a CEO in a newindustry first time CEO in a new
industry it could beoverwhelming, especially you
know the first few months andthere's lots of people willing
(26:04):
to help but there's also lots ofpeople with needs in the
organization and you know thefirst few months.
You just like write everythingdown like, okay, I wanna help
that person and fix that and fixthis.
And the thing I learned and theadvice I'd give for someone else
, in my opinion is to really getto quickly, like what are the
three to five most importantthings for this business right
now?
And I wanna hear what the otherthings are and put them on the
(26:29):
list that we'll get toeventually.
But I really need to move theneedle in these three to five
different places because this isgonna have the most impact on
the organization and it may notget everyone's needs met right
away, but it'll help us take thebiggest step and then we can
work.
We can work down the list.
It's hard to see those three tofive sometimes but you've got
(26:50):
to force yourself back to it andyou know, stick to your guns on
that and eventually it allstarts to come together.
But in general my team at theMuse and Very God Boss and the
the town acquisition communityhas been very supportive and I'm
very thankful to have to be inthis industry and to get the
support I'm getting.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, well, I, we're super happy that you joined us
and, you know, won a heavy onearlier and I know that there's
just so much to learn, you know,coming into a brand new
industry.
I kind of echo one thing thatyou said, heather, and that's,
you know, I think the TA spaceis.
I think we should at least be avery welcoming industry, like
the thing that we are.
But I also think, like there's,you know, there's a lot of
(27:31):
people that are holding themegaphone that you know have had
the same opinions for 20 yearsand my opinion is like having
new, fresh perspectives fromsomeone like you who comes into
a new industry, you know,without sort of you know, so the
preconceived notions of how TAand recruiting has worked for
the last 20, 30 years is justsuper interesting, right and
(27:54):
like we've talked a lot aboutprogrammatic advertising, how
job boards work, and you know,to me I think we've got a great
opportunity to take a lot ofsteps forward in in town,
because I actually as a wholeand you know, super thrilled
with having new voices coming infrom TA, that maybe you're just
a little bit different thanwhat we've been listening to for
(28:15):
a couple decades.
There's no question there.
I'm just excited.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Well, thank you and thanks for for letting me let me
become part of the conversation.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah, of course.
Well, I have one last question.
It is, I think, the easiest one, and that is you know, where
can people find more about youand find you online?
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Sure, so I'm on LinkedIn.
So Heather Tanuto and alsoHeathertanuto at TheMusecom.
I'd love to hear from everybodyand again, thanks everyone for
all the support.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Fantastic.
We'll link everything in theshow notes and I can say,
heather, you're very active withsome great content that you
share on LinkedIn, so I'llencourage everyone to definitely
give Heather a follow and, yeah, really appreciate you joining
us.
Excited to see you know howthings progress with TheMuse.
Great thanks.
So much, guys.
Alright, thanks for tuning in.
As always, head on over tochangestateio or shoot us a note
(29:08):
on all the social media.
We'd love to hear from you andwe'll check you guys next week.
Welcome to the changing state of talent
acquisition, where your hosts,graham Thornton and Martin Kred,
share their unfiltered takes onwhat's happening in the world
of talent acquisition today.
Each week brings new guests whoshare their stories on the
tools, trends and technologiescurrently impacting the changing
state of talent acquisition.
Have feedback or want to jointhe show?
(00:21):
Head on over to changestateio.
And now on to this week'sepisode.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Alright, and we are back with another episode of the
changing state of talentacquisition podcast, Extremely
excited for our next guest,Heather Tanuto.
Ceo of the Muse Group.
Heather, great to have you heretoday.
Let's start with an easyquestion what led you to your
current role as the CEO of theMuse and how do you typically
(00:47):
spend your days?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Well, first of all, thanks for having me.
I'm super excited to be on theshow.
So I've been the CEO of theMuse Group, which is we have two
platforms the Muse and FairyGodbaugh.
So I've been CEO sinceSeptember and it's been a great
journey so far.
I started my career in techsales mostly because I was an
English major and was lookingfor something to do after
(01:11):
graduating with that, so Istarted in sales.
I took a brief pause in mycareer and I taught high school
which is a fun story.
We can talk a little bit aboutthat later and then I came back
from my educational career,still loving sales, still loving
coaching and teaching.
I started a sales enablementcompany that was very focused on
(01:32):
helping companies that were inthat 10 to 15 million dollar
range but stuck there, and sothat's where I focused for the
rest of my career helpingcompanies break through that
hurdle and having good success,good exits.
So I did that until my lastrole, which is similar.
I gave a chief revenue officerat a company called ZIF
(01:52):
Solutions and spent four and ahalf years there, and we had a
great exit recently.
And then I got contacted by thefounder of the Muse and the
story ended well.
We had great synergy, and hereI am.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
That's awesome.
Well, I you know Marty knowsthis but my parents are both
public school teachers.
I have a very special place inmy heart for anyone that is
willing to enter the educationalspace, so a huge thank you for
your service there Awesome.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, you know I'm going to dive into something
that I know is near and dear toMarty's heart.
You spent a lot of time, or wespent a lot of time talking
about your EVP, employerbranding, and you know, one of
the things that kind of stoodout to us is one of your release
and LinkedIn posts.
You know, you kind of posed aninteresting question about you
know whether an organization isusing their EVP as you know
(02:45):
quote unquote a tactic or astrategy.
So now I'm wondering, can you,you know, share a little bit
more about the difference andyou know, maybe, what is?
What are some of the keydifferences between you know,
using your EVP as a strategyversus a tactic?
And well, how can organizationsbecome a little bit more
strategic and leveraging theiremployer brand?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Yeah, it's an important question and it's
something I really didn't startthinking about until I took this
role, which is my first time asa CEO.
So we see a lot of companiesdecide, hey, it'll be easier to
find the talent we need if wehave a better employer brand.
So you know, let's go get one.
And that's really a hard thingto do from scratch, especially
(03:29):
when it's not coming from thetop.
So, as a CEO, I see howimportant it is that being a
great employer and understandingthe employer you have to be in
order to attract the talent youwant.
It's a strategic issue and soif it starts at the top, if it's
an agenda item in everyleadership meeting, it becomes
(03:50):
much easier for your talent teamjust to portray what already
exists versus making somethingup which then just becomes a
tactic.
So what companies who want tobe successful in this have to do
is make it an initiative thatruns through the company but
absolutely starts at the top,and that's something I took for
(04:12):
granted until I got higher up inthe leadership ranks and
realized how important it is.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
Wow, I love this.
Yeah Well, this is, you know,speaking to my heart, as Graham
said.
You know, I think a lot oforganizations, as you mentioned,
treat brand as something thatthey create, and we always
encourage our clients to thinkabout it more, as something that
exists, whether or not you'repaying attention to it or not,
(04:37):
and I think one of the upshotsof that is it's not something
that you can suddenly startpaying attention to and expect
to serve your organizationovernight.
You know the strong, clearbrands of the world, just say
brands more generally.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Are brands that?
Speaker 4 (04:51):
have been talking about in serious, thoughtful
ways for a long time and theyare topics of conversation at
the boardroom on a regular basis.
It's a bit like joining a goodsalesperson and having spent no
time networking and thensuddenly deciding that you want
to build a pipeline and helpingthat somewhere you're going to
get a lot of people coming in.
(05:11):
You know, if you really want astrong employer brand, you
really have to put them work in,and it's a long-term process,
not something you can just kindof spin up.
Is that a fair?
Would you ever be pushed backto that?
I mean, is that a fair way ofcapturing what you mean by sure?
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
I like the analogy to salesbecause you know that's how I
grew up.
You also mentioned the board.
Right and like you have so manycompanies today with boards
that are very operational,integral to their operations,
and it has to be something thateveryone agrees that is worth
investing in and that there'salignment about what the brand
(05:50):
should be across the board andthe leadership team.
Or, you know, maybe it startswith like what kind of talent we
want to attract and who do wehave to be able to do that.
Very important for sure, and Ithink that company is that
invest there, whether it's withdollars or, you know, leadership
meeting time are going to dobetter at this and their talent
(06:13):
teams are going to do better atthis, for sure.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I do think it kind of comes down
to a word that's unfortunatelyoverused and I think people kind
of glaze over when they hear it.
But it is an important concept.
This idea of authenticity andthis idea of who are we as an
organization, how do we treatour employees.
That's something that takes alot of thought and care to
(06:40):
actually execute in a strategicway.
And you do see organizationswho are like pardon my French,
but oh shit, we need to hire abunch of people.
What messages can we put outthere?
What bait can we put out therein the world that will attract a
bunch of fish to this hook thatwe have and that may actually
work in the short term?
(07:00):
You know, you may actually puta message out there that
succeeds in attracting andfilling the seats that you need
to fill in the short term, butof course, that's a very limited
approach because people willeventually discover what it's
really like to work for yourorganization and ultimately that
will undermine your largerstrategic goals as an
organization.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Well, that's right and it connects to what you said
before.
Like, your brand is out there,whether you've helped curate it
or not, and so if you're puttingsomething out there that's not
aligned with what's already outthere or that's going to be out
there soon, if you've hiredwithout that authenticity, it's
going to fall apart prettyquickly.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think this is anatural segue to another topic
and this is this idea ofemployer brand ambassadors.
You know, I think a lot of ouraudience knows I grew up in the
consumer brand space and inconsumer branding we talk about
brand ambassadors and these areconnected to people that are
actually hired to represent yourbrand.
(07:58):
You know, if you think about atrade show, the hire attractive
looking people that somehowembody what the brand images and
they are out there to promoteand represent the brand.
So I think it's easy analogy tomake.
I understand the employer brandambassador might be.
I think one of the bigdifferences that comes to mind
is that employer brandambassadors are full time
(08:21):
employees.
They don't have, you know,unlike the consumer brand
ambassadors, who's that mayactually be their full time job.
These are people actually haveto do work for the organization
outside of representing theorganization as an employer.
So with that in mind, I'm justwondering if you could share a
little bit about how you thinkof the role of employer brand
ambassadors.
How do organizations go aboutselecting the right folks to be
(08:43):
those?
And you know how do you balancethe roles of an employer brand
ambassador with the day job.
You know that keeps the lightson.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Yeah.
So that's a great question.
I think there's three partsthat.
The first is we already talkedabout.
Like your, your EVP has to be astrategy, not a tactic, if
you're going to take this stepand recruit people to be an
ambassador, because they willstill see through that pretty
quickly.
The second part is when you'rechoosing people or they're
(09:12):
choosing themselves to fill thatrole.
I think there has to be anunderstanding and a belief that
making sure the right people arecoming into the organization is
going to make it better foreverybody, and so people who
believe that are going to have alot more energy for what's
(09:34):
required in this role, but liketo do it because, hey, it's
going to be somebody maybegiving me some free time to do
it, or I've been asked to dothis and maybe it's a way to get
to the next level of my career.
I think we've got to convincepeople and this should be easy
that everyone benefits whenwe're bringing in right, fit
(09:54):
talent to the organization andit's going to you know, it's
going to raise the tides of allthe votes.
So that's number two, and Ithink that that's about great
messaging, great coaching, butalso finding people who are very
invested in the success of thebusiness.
And then as far as, like youknow, obviously people have jobs
(10:16):
, I think we just have to do agood space, a good job of
creating space with employeesthat can be ambassadors, to make
sure we're not overwhelmingthem, because you certainly
don't want an overwhelmedambassador out there talking
about how great work, lifebalance is at the company.
So doing something to createspace for that person and making
(10:38):
it part of their roledescription and how their, how
their measured, how theirperformance is measured, I think
is the only fair way to do it.
I hope that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah, I think that does.
So you know I'm curious,heather, so can we talk?
Maybe give us some examples ofyou know an employer ambassador
Program in practice?
Right, so I can't sounds likeyou know find people there.
You know passionate aboutorganizations.
Obviously you know certain one,certainly one of the key lovers
.
So you know I'm curious likefor an organization that you
(11:10):
know, maybe a bit or small, thatyou know is thinking through.
You know ways that they canhelp, you know, better utilize
your use, their employers tosort of represent.
You know body, their brand.
You know publicly, whether it'sacross social channels.
You know, at these events, youknow what does that look like in
practice?
You know, are you seeing that?
No employers you know oftendon't know where to start.
(11:31):
Or you know, talk a little bit.
You know more about what thisconcept of you know and a brand
ambassador looks like in the dayto day, maybe even that you
know at the news sure.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
No, that makes the yeah for sure.
So I think where it starts isthe change your thinking about.
Like this ambassador is notjust this person that is going
to go out and say great thingsabout your company.
I think that person needs to beconnected to the evolution of
the company and the brand of thecompany.
So think of it as a two waystreet.
Maybe there is A group togetherthat's helping the leadership
(12:06):
team make decisions about how weevolve the brand or how we
evolve Initiatives at thecompany to be able to create the
environment that is going toget us the talent we want, right
?
So a feedback group or focusgroup based on a few, on a few
initiatives are important.
I think the n I is a goodexample.
(12:26):
If you have a d n I focus groupat your company, we want that
group to give us feedback on howit's going and things we can do
to create a better environmentand also help us Find more
people to come into theorganization by by being an
ambassador for for a brand.
So it's not just the outwardpart, it's having a role in how
(12:49):
we make decisions and how weevolve as a workplace community.
So I think that's the place tostart.
Who's that group?
Let's start working on thethings that will advance us
internally, and then step two ishow to?
How does this group help usspread the message?
Once we've got thoseinitiatives in place?
Speaker 4 (13:09):
I really love that idea.
You know, often when we'rehelping clients think through or
define for lack of a betterterm there Evp's, you know we
make a point at the verybeginning of the project of
establishing a core group thatdoesn't include just people in
hr or t?
A but includes people inmarketing and from all aspects
of the organization.
(13:29):
Of course the reason we do thatis because I'm then at the end
of the project we have a coregroup that feels like they co
created what you know the publicface of our employer brand is
going to be.
But I think what you'resuggesting is almost taking that
idea a step further, becauseoftentimes those people are
executives, their senior levelpeople in the organization, with
(13:50):
good reason, you know.
I think that's make sense tohave those folks in the room,
but often at the end of theproject then we're like okay,
here's what our evp is.
Now we need some testimonialvideos that we gotta find people
to actually bring this to life.
Those folks can actually bepart of the process.
You know I'm not saying they'llbe in every weekly meeting
about the evp, but I think thesooner you can involve these
(14:11):
people that were later beidentified as employer brand
ambassadors, the better.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
I don't know if you have any thoughts about that I
mean, I think that's a, I thinkyou said it, that's exactly
right.
What part can they play increating the evp, or helping at
least guide what it is today,before we ask them to go out and
proselytize on our behalf?
Yeah, sure, like, if you thinkabout, you know it's an election
year, right, like you, you'vegotta believe in your candidate
(14:37):
and feel like you know yourissues are being represented
before you're gonna starthanging posters and knocking on
doors.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Yeah, yeah.
I don't know if we're gonna gointo politics today, but you
need some more time if you doyeah, yeah, no, I do like I'm
thinking like, alright, so youknow, in relation to our
projects, marty, you know,trying to look at this from a
consumer lens, right, so I, youknow an apple brand and that you
(15:06):
know a consumer brandambassador, people that just
love apple, you know, line upoutside of the store like I'm
sure I'm some levels.
You know, what we're trying todo in our brand projects is no,
in that first phase of four,take a like what do people feel?
Like your brand exists,regardless of whether you're
doing brand studies, right, soit's.
You know you're going to thatIn our standpoint of four step
(15:30):
process.
Like who are the people thatare, you know, most
representative of?
You know some of the supportingpillars of ep and how can we
remember, you know, three monthsinto a project to go back to
jim, bob, or you know, mary,kate and pepper them?
You know some of the questionsthat support a word and
innovative organization.
(15:51):
And here's why I'm like, hey,we support work life balance,
but like, in what particularways?
And so, in a way, like I thinkI'm gonna bring a bastard, just
making sure that you have aclean connection between some of
the data that you're getting inyour ep projects, in your
candidate surveys, and you'rechoosing how to sort of direct
(16:11):
some of the employer stories ina way that you know resonates
with your talent.
Is that a bad analogy, marty?
How did I kind of Well.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
I think that's right.
You know, I actually where Istarted this conversation about
consumer brand ambassadors.
I actually feel like thatalmost cheapens the image of an
employer brand ambassadorbecause you know you can find,
post things on Craigslist,frankly, for people to be quote,
unquote consumer brandambassadors that hand out free
energy drinks at, you know,sporting events and stuff like
(16:41):
that.
It's a job that pays $10 anhour.
The person may not care at allabout the brand they're not
necessarily the folks that arecamping outside the Apple store
who are truly passionate aboutit.
You know, in the case ofemployer, brand ambassadors.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
There's something a lot more authentic and genuine
going on at least I would hopeso no, I don't think that's
necessarily a bad analogy.
The other thing I would sayjust for our audiences.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
You know, I think an important component when you're
thinking about your developingan EVP and I know Heather just
touched on this is, yeah, you doneed to bring in the people who
might be the employer brandambassadors early in the process
if you can, and that can be assimple as you know, when you're
developing an EVP or at leastwhen we do it we come up with a
(17:26):
few different options and thenwe put them in front of
employees and say what do youthink about this?
Does this accurately capturewhy you like to work for our
organization?
And you can quickly thenidentify the folks who say yes,
that doesn't capture it and thisis why I love working for you.
And then later you have a poolof people who you can say well,
(17:46):
we've got 100 people who saidthe winning EVP that we chose to
take forward to the publicmarket represents how they feel
about us.
And they wrote eloquently in thetext box about how great we are
.
You can speak to the core ideasor the pillars that are under
scrutiny of our employer brand,and so by doing that, this is
not hard, it's just simplysurvey and at the end, of the
(18:08):
survey asking him would you bewilling to speak publicly about
us as an employer?
That's one simple way, I think,of identifying employer brand
ambassadors in an early stage inthe process.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Yeah, and we get companies that come to us that
haven't spent time on their EVPand we help them through the
process that you just described.
Like it's not in depth, that'snot really what we do, it's what
you guys do, but we have a wayto get them to start thinking
about it, and it starts withgetting feedback from their
teams.
Like that's where we feel likeour role is in it, to make sure
(18:41):
we're supporting authenticity,and so especially companies in
the mid market may have notspent quite enough time here.
We try to help them get started.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, that is great.
Well, I want to pivot a littlebit because it's a topic that I
was very interesting to cover.
So we talk a lot about DEI,heather and obviously the muse,
very God boss, the whole groupthere has very unique
demographics across yourproperties.
(19:10):
But another topic you've kindof been vocal about is they need
to expand DEI efforts toconsider other forms of
diversity beyond gender andethnic identity.
So one point that you made wastalking about, I believe, the
ability to, or the missedopportunity just to, empower
introverts right, who contributemaybe some less obvious ways.
(19:31):
So I'm curious can you maybeshare a little bit more about
your interest in this topicspecifically?
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Yeah, for sure, and this goes back to my teacher
days.
So I think, like I taught in ahard to staff high school I had
maybe five classes a day with 37students in each class and as a
teacher like you get presentedwith this group of personalities
and you can't just be like,well, there's a bunch of kids
(19:59):
that don't like to raise theirhands, so I'm just going to
ignore them, right, like you andyou've all had teachers like
this like they change the deskaround, they they call on people
who don't talk as much, theycreate exercises so that
everyone can get involved.
They put you in a group with.
You know in groups that tosupport your learning style.
And so, as a teacher andgetting my degree in education
(20:22):
and being in the classroom, Ilearned all these strategies
about how to make sure theclassroom we were hearing all
the voices in the classroom andthen also making sure different
learning styles were all able toadvance.
And that was the job and it washard and it was wonderful all
(20:42):
at the same time.
And then you take a step intocorporate America and it's like
none of that happens anymore,right?
It's just like here's the job,no matter who you are, this is
what we expect and go, and weknow that most people aren't
going to identify as someone whomay need a little bit more help
because they're shy or or theyyou know, they just live in it
(21:06):
and and we don't hear from themvery often.
I had a CEO back when I workedat M5 Networks.
His name is Dan Hoffman, whowas a master at this.
Like he felt like the quietestpeople have the best ideas
because they're listening toeverybody and they're
formulating while the rest of usare like screaming all over
each other.
And they have the best ideasand if you don't create an
(21:29):
environment where you're goingto get the best out of them,
like you're leaving innovationon the table.
And so he was a master at that.
And actually, after we soldthat company, he often started a
technology company thatactually facilitates getting
everyone to participate equallyin a meeting, which is really
cool, and we can talk aboutanother time.
(21:49):
Anyway, with my experience withall this, I just realized that
not everyone is in tune, as I ambecause of my experiences, and
I think leaders just don't knowwhat they're missing if they're
not getting the best out of thepeople who might not be the
first to speak up.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
Wow, I really love this.
As an introvert myself, I can.
You know.
I just have, frankly, not greatmemories of primary school.
It's just like the first day ofschool, any kind of new
beginning.
Oh, we have to do theseicebreaker activities and yeah,
I mean, I think the point iswell taken that we have a school
system maybe that's changingslowly in a workplace default
(22:31):
that is built around the needsof extroverts, and even to the
extent that we may be nowconsidering that there are
introverts in the room that havedifferent needs, it almost can
come across as well.
How do we coax this introvertinto acting like an extrovert,
you know, rather than actuallyjust allowing them to be who
(22:51):
they are, which is someone whomay be very quiet?
You know, growing up, what youjust said resonates really
strongly with me, because I wasnot someone who raised my hand
often, but at some point I don'tremember what grade this was
Someone said you know, martydoesn't speak much, but you know
, when he does, the whole roomgets quiet and everyone listens
because it's probably somethingimportant.
(23:12):
You know, and I think there's alot of that that happens in the
workplace, and so I think it'sjust really encouraging to hear
someone thinking about diversityoutside of the usual ways that
we think about it, which are, ofcourse, very important, but
this is, I think, a longoverlooked way.
Last thing I'll mention and youmay have already read this book
, heather, but there's a reallygreat book, I think it's called
(23:34):
the Power of Introverts orsomething like that, or the
Secret Power of Introverts.
I think the author's name isSusan King which makes a real
case for, you know, cultivatingthis type of, let's say,
neurological diversity inschools and workplaces.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
I have not read the book, but I've definitely heard
of that book.
My he'll kill me for saying itmy husband I'm an extrovert, my
husband's an introvert and whatyou said resonates like.
When he says something, it'spowerful.
He's also spending a lot oftime listening right and is
formulating a really goodopinion based on what he hears.
I think extroverts tend to benot as good at listening, and so
(24:11):
there's really untappedpotential in teams when there's
both introverts and extrovertsat the table, and it's the job
of the leader to make surethey're getting those employees
what they need and being able toextract what they think,
because we all want to innovateand introverts tend to have the
best ideas, in my opinion.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
Hear that, Graham.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
I do, and as a leader I don't know.
Marty, I gotta tell you like Ithink part of the reason we have
this podcast is becauseeveryone wants to get you to
speak a little bit more and likein a nice comfortable
environment.
So I hear that it's on on.
Well, I do want to get back totopics that are certainly
(24:55):
interesting to, I think, thebroader market here.
Heather, and I think you'vekind of took a new role at CEO
at the Muse and a bit of a newindustry.
So I'm curious, hey, I'd loveto know how it's going.
But I'm also interested for ouraudience has anything?
What surprised you most aboutbeing CEO at the Muse, maybe?
Or what surprised you mostabout the town acquisition
(25:17):
industry, if anything at all?
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I think the thing this is gonna sound like you
know I'm just putting on happyyears here but the thing that
surprised me the most is howwelcoming everybody was.
I suspected there would be alot of raised eyebrows, of a CEO
coming into the Muse without alot of experience in town and
acquisition.
But everyone, includingyourselves when I met you, were
(25:43):
very helpful in pointing me inthe right direction and helping
me understand the industry andthat was great and it made it a
lot easier for me to get up tospeed.
Like becoming a CEO in a newindustry first time CEO in a new
industry it could beoverwhelming, especially you
know the first few months andthere's lots of people willing
(26:04):
to help but there's also lots ofpeople with needs in the
organization and you know thefirst few months.
You just like write everythingdown like, okay, I wanna help
that person and fix that and fixthis.
And the thing I learned and theadvice I'd give for someone else
, in my opinion is to really getto quickly, like what are the
three to five most importantthings for this business right
now?
And I wanna hear what the otherthings are and put them on the
(26:29):
list that we'll get toeventually.
But I really need to move theneedle in these three to five
different places because this isgonna have the most impact on
the organization and it may notget everyone's needs met right
away, but it'll help us take thebiggest step and then we can
work.
We can work down the list.
It's hard to see those three tofive sometimes but you've got
(26:50):
to force yourself back to it andyou know, stick to your guns on
that and eventually it allstarts to come together.
But in general my team at theMuse and Very God Boss and the
the town acquisition communityhas been very supportive and I'm
very thankful to have to be inthis industry and to get the
support I'm getting.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, well, I, we're super happy that you joined us
and, you know, won a heavy onearlier and I know that there's
just so much to learn, you know,coming into a brand new
industry.
I kind of echo one thing thatyou said, heather, and that's,
you know, I think the TA spaceis.
I think we should at least be avery welcoming industry, like
the thing that we are.
But I also think, like there's,you know, there's a lot of
(27:31):
people that are holding themegaphone that you know have had
the same opinions for 20 yearsand my opinion is like having
new, fresh perspectives fromsomeone like you who comes into
a new industry, you know,without sort of you know, so the
preconceived notions of how TAand recruiting has worked for
the last 20, 30 years is justsuper interesting, right and
(27:54):
like we've talked a lot aboutprogrammatic advertising, how
job boards work, and you know,to me I think we've got a great
opportunity to take a lot ofsteps forward in in town,
because I actually as a wholeand you know, super thrilled
with having new voices coming infrom TA, that maybe you're just
a little bit different thanwhat we've been listening to for
(28:15):
a couple decades.
There's no question there.
I'm just excited.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Well, thank you and thanks for for letting me let me
become part of the conversation.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah, of course.
Well, I have one last question.
It is, I think, the easiest one, and that is you know, where
can people find more about youand find you online?
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Sure, so I'm on LinkedIn.
So Heather Tanuto and alsoHeathertanuto at TheMusecom.
I'd love to hear from everybodyand again, thanks everyone for
all the support.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Fantastic.
We'll link everything in theshow notes and I can say,
heather, you're very active withsome great content that you
share on LinkedIn, so I'llencourage everyone to definitely
give Heather a follow and, yeah, really appreciate you joining
us.
Excited to see you know howthings progress with TheMuse.
Great thanks.
So much, guys.
Alright, thanks for tuning in.
As always, head on over tochangestateio or shoot us a note
(29:08):
on all the social media.
We'd love to hear from you andwe'll check you guys next week.
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