#36 The Power of Art and Passion: A Conversation with Brad Warren

Part 2 of Carlos's conversation with Brad Warren, on half of the hit songwriting duo The Warren Brothers.

Ever wondered what the journey of a song looks like, from the writing room to the radio? Well, my good friend and Grammy-nominated songwriter, Brad Warren, is here to unravel the mystery. Together, we navigate the intricate process and share stories of unexpected breakthroughs in the music industry - like how rapper Connor Price and his wife spun a globe for their next collab decision and powered through electricity outages in Zambia.

As we wade through the world of rhymes and records, we explore the traditional music industry versus the newer, more creative forms of art showcase. Brad and I swap notes on the potential of AI, the power of mentorship, and lessons from the successful young songwriter, Ernest. We also delve into the appreciation of passion as we discuss Elon Musk's achievements and remind ourselves that it's vital to stay curious, not envious.

If you've ever chased success or felt overwhelmed by it, our chat on balancing success and downtime will resonate with you. We stress the importance of having a well-structured day, managing time, and pushing past comfort zones. We cap off with heart-warming stories of finding perspective, inspiration from others, and how small decisions can create significant impacts.

Check out Brad's podcast, The Good Grief Good God Show: https://goodgriefgoodgodshow.com

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, this is Carlos.
This is part two of my chatwith my very good friend, brad
Warren, grammy nominated and anumber one hit songwriter here
in Nashville, tennessee.
Enjoy.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
It is not, you write it.
If you wrote it without anartist which is most of the time
, most of the songs we write youhave to pitch it to the artist
that you've had to have knownfor 20 years to have their
number to pitch it to them.
Or you pitch it to a recordcompany to put it into your
publisher, which literallyalmost never works for us.
So we're trying to find anartist.
You get it.
If you get it to the artist orthe producer, the producer plays

(00:35):
it for the artist.
They like it.
That's a miracle.
You've written a song and thisproducer an artist.
They like it.
Then they play it for themanagement company and the
record company and a room fullof jackass and sits at a table
and decides if your song isgoing to beat out the 200 other
songs that we've got in the pilefor this.
If it happens to be one of the12 songs that beats out the
other 200, you get to put itback in our day on the CD.

(00:57):
That's a miracle.
That's a miracle that it gotpast all these goalies.
Then it's on that CD and it wasback in the day.
You know you had to go Walmartand your song was on the CD on
in Walmart and sometimes yourname was listed on the back
cover of it because they had thesongwriters on.
And that was a miracle and itwas amazing.
And then somebody had a meeting, because the artists usually

(01:17):
get three singles per album andthey say this song should be a
single and this same group ofjack asses sits in a room and
decides whether your song getsto be a single set.
Now they invite in programdirectors from all over the
country to put their two centsin their idiots too.
And then if your song getschosen, it gets to go to radio.
That's another miracle.

(01:39):
It has to work its way all theway up from number 150 all the
way up to get to number one, andyou know how many people had to
be convinced, how many peoplehad to be bribed, how many
leaning on favors and thingsthat people do to get a song up
to charts number one.
It's unbelievable, and so whenyou're, when you're writing with
that, with that journey in mind, it ruins it a little bit.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yeah, it doesn't know the journey at first yeah, and
we was really, so you just goyeah, isn't that funny once you,
once you know what theboundaries are, how scary it
could be.
And I've, I've definitely beenguilty of that.
When I look at people that I'mlike how the freak did they make
it?
How did they do?
Because I know what level thatthey're at as far as the writing
goes and their storytelling issubpar and it, and I am not.

(02:25):
I am not Hemingway, I willfreely admit that man, I am
happy to be somewhere in themiddle.
Yeah, you know, I know I.
You know some people say that Iwrite thrillers with heart.
I'm cool with that man, Ireally am.
But it's like, you see, I'mcurious what you think about
this.
So I one of my favoritepodcasts the other day,

(02:45):
interviewed a husband and wifeteam.
This guy his name is ConnorPrice.
Okay, he was an actor growingup, you know, was in some things
that we've probably seen.
Well, he's a white guy who hasalways been always loved music,
and so during COVID he startedexperimenting.
He wanted to be a rapper.

(03:05):
Right, like he did great, great, like fast raps, and at first
he was doing it under like kindof a pseudonym, you know, kind
of I think it was like literallycalled anonymous or something.
This is somebody's gonna skewerme for actually knowing the
facts on this one.
Well then, his wife is like,because they've known each other
since they were 10, she's likeyou should put this under your
own name and try not to beanybody else.

(03:27):
You are a white kid, right beyou, and so he is.
He started doing like sketches.
He did this one where it waslike a sketch of like, you know,
turning up, turning a carrotinto a flute and then what that
sounded like, and then he turnedit into a song somehow, because
he's funny, right, he turns, hedoes a little sketch.

(03:47):
It made me think of you,because you and Brett together
cracked me up, did a 15 to 20minute sketch and then that
segues into a song.
Dude, you know how many streamsthis guy's going.
I can only imagine, I mean like80 million at a time.
And here's a deal they haven'tsigned.
They don't want to sign anydeals with anybody because they
own it all and every penny thatthey make is coming into them.

(04:10):
But you know, I really likethem.
This guy is not just they'renot keeping it to themselves,
they are collabing with allthese people that they meet and
helping them out along the waythey.
He did this.
One of his biggest hits it maybe his biggest streamed hit is
called spinning or spinning, andhe did this little gag where he
spun a globe.

(04:30):
They went and bought a globe,like, literally, they tell a
story.
They drove by target.
They were trying to come upwith their next skit.
They're like all right, I'mgonna spin a globe and, you know
, put my finger on it and I'mgonna collab with an artist from
that place.
And it was like Zambia orsomething.
He's like I didn't know whereZambia was and plus, they'd
already picked it, but so theyhad to do like a hundred takes
for him to spin it and get on tothat so that he collabs with

(04:52):
this, this Zambian, like hip-hopartists, right, well, come to
find out over there, they don'thave electricity all day so this
guy could only stream, you knowcertain.
So there were all theseconstraints.
Well, they make this, they dothis, and it becomes this huge
deal.
So then all of a sudden, peopleour eyes on, and so they are.

(05:14):
They're a building somethingthat not only is outside the
norm, right outside oftraditional publishing, all that
sort of thing.
There I feel like and I don'tknow them personally, I want to
meet them after I heard them foran hour and I'm listening to
everything that they're doing.
They're helping other people.
They seem to be doing it theright way and the guy love.
They love what they do, right,they love music, they love the

(05:35):
process, they're having fundoing it.
You know, he's like I'll belaying there and bed at midnight
and I have this idea for asketch and I'm just like I gotta
go do it right now.
So I grab my phone and I grab myequipment and I just go do it
and there's something about thatexcitement like how do you kind
of weigh the, the old world I'mgonna call your world the old
world what you came up in withthe, the, the tick-tock stars

(05:59):
who have become, you know, whowould become like major players
in the music world now, becauseI know some people that are
really bitter about it.
They're like they didn't come upthe traditional way, they
didn't knock on the doors, theydidn't do all this, whereas I
see it potentially as they'rejust finding a different way to
get their art out there, whichis what I did too.
I I kind of cheated the systemright, according to some other

(06:21):
people, because I've I've metother people in my world who do
not like the way I did it.
They don't like the fact that Icame up with my own website and
promoted my own stuff like Ishould have gotten an agent and
then a publisher and all thesethings.
I went outside the norm no,it's brilliant how do you guys
feel about?

Speaker 2 (06:37):
it interesting.
You have actually helped mewithout a lot.
We were like, okay, well, let'ssay, let's just pretend like AI
is not the enemy.
You put chat GPT on my phoneand we start I've used that, but
not now.
I I'd be honest, I know itwould be a more effective tool
if I knew more how to use it.
I need to.
I could go everyone's got rhymezone, I don't need.
I don't need another word.
What I need is another thought.
So I but learning how to use it.

(06:59):
I'm like, oh, I get this I have.
There are some words and songsover the last three months that
wouldn't be there if you hadn'tput chat GPT on my phone,
because I'm like, oh, it justopens up another, even if I
don't see the word.
This word makes me think aboutthis word, which makes me think
about that word, and it winds upin the song and it wouldn't
have been in there before.
It's easy for me to get intothe conversation where the get

(07:20):
off my lawn.
You know, get an agent you need.
It's interesting.
But when you told me that, I'mlike that is.
Here's something that I wouldlack is the go, start your own
website.
And I wouldn't have done thatI'm like that's, that is what it
takes, and today's now.
I was also grew up at a timewhere there was the social media

(07:41):
, what by the time it was tohappen, and I was in my 40s and
I just, I just didn't care.
And then that now I meanhonestly, I'm doing a podcast
and writing book.
I really should have been, youknow.
So now, all of a sudden, we'retrying to still have my own
account.
But the Warren brothers have anaccount and good grief, good
God, has an account.
I am trying to be open to thenew way of and doing anything

(08:04):
which is good, and at the sametime, I have decided that I am
not going to do a whole lot ofthis like backfire, because
there's always some kids thathave become stars I did this
with, but I'm not necessarilygoing to carry some bozo across
the finish line.
It doesn't have any talent.
Yeah, just because he has a lotof tiktok followers and I'm

(08:24):
probably gonna be wrong for that.
The truth is, open it up,because I'm already thinking of
one that's this song has alreadybecome, and if something they
weren't talented, they just theyhadn't paid any dues.
Yeah, there's an artist outthat's doing very well.
I'm gonna leave it at that.
And they didn't pay any duesand the first two songs were big
hits and streamed a gazilliontimes in there and so green,

(08:48):
some of the most ridiculousthings that they said while we
were trying to write a song, asthey didn't know the rules, and
we're sure they did.
It's one thing to not know therules.
It's another thing to not knowthe rules and be convinced that
you're right about something.
Yeah, that's different.
So it is a little bit strange.
I would love to say man, justput me with the young guys.
I do love being with the youngguys.
We have signed a lot of youngguys, the earnest, whose Morgan

(09:11):
Wallins, number one co-writerand along with Hardy, I guess,
and his own artist career isdoing very well.
Brett and I literally found himand working at the doughnut den
and signed him and he's goodfriend and you know it's funny
because we don't write with himthat much anymore and it's
because I don't want to.
I want, he's gotta have.
This is his era.
Yep, this is his.

(09:32):
I'm 20 years older than him.
Yeah, we, if I wanted to writesomething with him, if I have a
reason for us right, we would godo it, but I want to let him
spread his wings and do histhing.
I do believe in mentorship.
The book you're talking about,arthur Brooks, from strength to
strength, is life-changing,giving you permission to get
into that role.
I love to mentor and to try tohelp people, and it's funny to

(09:53):
help somebody who's doing betterthan you ever did.
Yeah, ernest is killing it.
Yeah, he's killing it.
As a songwriter, I'm like he'sgot almost as many hits as we
have in our career, and it'sbeen six years.
You know, that's pretty cool,though.
Yeah and man, you have to likestart loving that and stop, stop
the comparison thing and andthe idea that, oh, they don't do

(10:17):
it in the right way and I don'thave that.
But sometimes With anything new, when people are coming in,
some things come in and they'regonna last, and some things come
in and they're not.
And when I can see that they'renot, I Don't want to be a
negative guy, I don't.
I don't want to be a negativeoccasion.
I'm like I'm not gonna propthis thing up because it's not
real, yeah, and I sooccasionally I will just go no,

(10:38):
we're not doing that anymore.
It's okay, and we're trying towrite less and do less anyway,
and I do like being with youngerguys, but I don't want to just
write with every totally artistthat comes on the pike, cuz then
you get spread thin and thenyou feel like you're chasing
around the next hit and I justWe've never been that great.
So it's.
That's an interesting question.
I don't have a really goodanswer to it.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
What I'm hearing is with the right person.
It's a, it's a good fit, and Itotally agree with that.
I mean, you know, I don't, Idon't do.
I do deep dives on the onthings.
You know that about me.
And I've done deep dives on ticktock in the music business and
publishing business and all thatsort of thing to see who's out
there and who's doing what andyou can kind of tell who is.

(11:22):
You know who the flash in thepan.
People are like like the, theisland boys, for example.
I don't know if you've evenknew they were huge with one one
little hit on, on, on, on ticktock, I think it was.
And then they went and did alive show and everybody realized
they couldn't sing and then itwas complete shit, right?
Well then you got a guy likeConnor Price, who, who In his

(11:45):
own way, oozes talent.
Right, the camera likes it.
I mean, he's a short white guy.
In the real world he wouldnever be signed.
You know, that's just a fact.
You know he cut his teeth inHollywood.
You know acting and and and and, doing scripts and doing shows
and all this stuff.
And he's then brought thattalent over to a different place

(12:08):
.
I like that social media andtechnology allows us to do stuff
like that now right, and thatyou can find in and actually
show off talent like that.
That's that's interesting.
That being said, I'm curious.
You mentioned paying your duesa couple times.
I I have my own thoughts onthat, like how much is enough

(12:30):
dues to pay, or how do you evendefine that, because I I've Also
heard top executives say thesame thing and I feel like it's
an arbitrary thing that peoplejust throw out there and it
really doesn't mean shit.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah, that's a good.
That's actually a really goodpoint, because so I watched a
documentary the other day onLogan Paul.
Yep, the Paul brothers.
Yeah, so how many years ago wasthat?
That started?
Five years ago.
It's ten years ago.
Ten years ago, maybe eight, myyoungest son, who's now 19.
So it's probably, he's probably12 or something.
Yeah, these guys are makingmillions of dollars being

(13:03):
youtubers.
I'm like, no, they're not.
No, not this, that doesn't.
First of all, I've never beendone.
You're on YouTube.
No, you're not.
You're just showing yourfriends stupid YouTube videos.
Well, meanwhile, he was right,yeah, I was wrong.
And these guys they're, by theway, easy to hate, but they're
they really carved, like you didwith your website, and they

(13:23):
carved new territory.
They, they were Idiot youtubersbringing back to sport of
boxing, and you can hate on themif you want, but they, they
were inventive.
So I don't think paying yourdues has to be a number of years
or a thing that you did, but ifyou don't have an original
thought, yeah, jackass that car,I mean lover.

(13:45):
Hate Johnny Knoxville, that carof new ground.
Yep, they went for somethingthat hadn't been done.
As a matter of fact, ourfriends from high school called
us Brett, nice it.
Oh, my god, these guys aredoing what you did, naturally,
and they're huge.
She should have been filmingall this and I think it took
that as a huge compliment at thetime.
But if you're, if you'recarving new ground and you have
something to offer and it'sinventive, it's just that when

(14:07):
you're offering rehash stuff andyou're and you're, so what I
say pay and dues give me anoriginal thought.
Why do I care about you otherthan here?
Well, here's what's happeningtoo is record companies and
managers who have big clout aresigning people because they have
a lot of followers, for forboat racing, yeah, and putting

(14:27):
them in record deals.
And when I say you haven't paidyour dues, I haven't heard any
music, you aren't ready to makemusic?
Yes, because you haven't.
So you've got it because youhave a bunch of followers doing
one thing the Peter principleapplies here You've found some,
some music.
People found you and, by theway, some of the record
companies in our lovely town hadjust been searching tick tock

(14:48):
to see the people with the mostmusic going and getting them.
And can you sing?
I Know I don't love that.
Yeah, I'm not ever gonna lovethat.
Yeah, if you don't love thisshit.
If this doesn't, I Couldn't doanything.
I couldn't think of anythingbut music from the age 10 to 40
35.
So I got sober.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
I started thinking about I.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
Was not doing anything else.
I had nothing to fall back on.
We always said if you havesomething to fall back on, you
will.
I put the hours, the time andyou don't have to do it like
that.
I'd also told Taylor Swift at14 that I didn't think anyone
cared about songs about highschool.
I still love that story, by theway.
It's crazy.
Anyway, I don't claim to knoweverything, but I'm my own
personal life and and and whatI'm gonna do with my time.

(15:34):
I want to find someone wholoves it now like I loved it
then.
Yeah, maybe I don't love itanymore as much.
I love information.
Now I'm an older person.
I want information.
I like to increase my knowledge.
I have to say most musicdoesn't challenge me musically.
I've played every chord, I'vewritten all the lyrics.
I want to challenge myself andI do occasionally hear something

(15:55):
.
I'm like oh my god, that is anamazing song.
There's a song by this girl,ingrid Anders.
I've never met her.
I don't know who wrote the song.
It's called breaking morehearts than mine.
You'll be, you know, if youbreak up with me.
She talks about her mom and herdad.
It's brilliant and I'm.
It moves me.
I'm like it's got to be reallygood to move because I just yeah
needles, it's kind of a neutral, that's with me, with books,

(16:17):
dude.
You read so fast and so manythat it's like it kind of ruins
what you do.
And I don't know how much youneed to read that, because I I
know the character that youwrite, because there's it's
funny, because females love yourbooks.
But you've got this militarytense to it often and it's real,
it comes from this thing andyou've got your character.
I would say it would be.

(16:38):
I'm guessing here We'd be moreimportant for you to live more
life, to have things to writeabout, than to read other
people's fiction.

Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, and I know, and Iknow people like that Absolutely
, and that's why, you know, whenI started I've I love movies
too, and I thought I was gonnawrite screenplays.
That's what I thought I wasgonna do.
That's what I thought my careeris gonna look like.
Then come to find out.
Then you got to play theHollywood game.
I don't want to play theHollywood game.
I don't so when I see peoplethat are Following their passion

(17:08):
and that I think that's whatstruck me about this.
This, this guy in particular,was it's what you talk about.
He is living it 24 hours a day.
He doesn't want to do anythingelse and he's helping other
people Find the same thing, andto me, that is that's the kind
of person that we need in in ourindustries.

(17:30):
Right, like people that love it, no matter what.
You know, a guy that's justfanatical about Elon Musk, right
Like?
Like that dude.
I have no idea how he's donewhat he's done, but he is
somehow fanatical about everyone of the billion dollar
companies that he's he started.
How crazy.
He's a freak.
We may never see a person likethat again in our lifetimes.

(17:50):
I'm just glad I'm alive rightnow.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
Me too, I agree, so yeah, so when I see.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
So when I see people that are that invested in their
careers, and it's the same timelike I don't know.
Obviously I don't know Elonpersonally, but when you run
into somebody who not only ispassionate about what they do,
they also seem to have somethings figured out on on their
personal side of their lives, IGo, dude, what, what is this

(18:16):
person doing?
And so I've been doing a deepdive on this dude right, like
how did he start and what?
You know, where did he comefrom and all this stuff.
I'm like you, I'm constantlylearning and that's why I like
running into younger people,specifically because they have
new ideas and sometimes they'rethey're dumb and I'm like, hey,
look, that sounds great.
But this maybe why that doesn'twork, and I'm sure you've got to

(18:38):
do that plenty.
You know you have to be kind ofnice about it, especially if
it's an up-and-coming name.
That, yeah, something theythrow into your writing room and
you're like, oh god, likeyou've to, it does crack me up
Sometimes will be, will behanging out on a Monday night
and you're like, yes, so thismorning a row, this guy.
I'm like like I don't have todeal with that.
So how, how do you deal withthat with and I know you do that

(19:02):
less now you know it's more ofwho you're choosing to write
with but, like, how do you getthrough those days where it's
like either Either nothing'sflowing for you like you and
Brett, or the person you'retrying to vibe with you just
can't vibe with?

Speaker 2 (19:16):
That's rare because the truth is, yeah, we write
with who we want to write with.
That and it's Made.
90% of our rights are great andthey're the people we want to
be with.
And and whether that does ordoesn't cost me money, like I'm
not, I'm not riding around onthe back of someone's tour bus
while they spoke weed allweekend and just I was too old
for that shit.
I'm not doing it.
So when we write, we write intown and I get what.
We'll try.

(19:36):
We would travel for a friend andwrite, but you know we don't
have many terrible days, butthere's just some days where I
feel like I'm a bad writer.
Yeah, and I, you know, you justput your head down and just do
it and get through it.
And I Wanted to mention on theElon Musk thing, like it's, like
you're really good at the Becurious, not envious, like I

(19:58):
love to to look at someone.
Okay, so I have two reallyreally successful friends,
really opposite ends of business, but Strauss Zelnick is a
Fortune 500 guy made all of hishis.
He's a CEO of Zelnick Media andTake 2, which is a video
company unbelievably smart,hardworking guy, whatever, and

(20:20):
we're very close.
I'm known him for Shit, 28years or something.
And then the other one is TimMcGraw, very close to Tim and
we've been great friends, musicguy, whatever the similarities,
and I'm.
When I say I have a lot ofsuccessful friends, you being
one of them, I mean the.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
The next level that guys, that would be at dinner
with Elon Musk and Mark Cuban.

Speaker 2 (20:40):
Right, the similarities between Strauss and
Tim are countless.
They're countless.
I Picked dumb things that don'tmake any money to copy from
those guys.
They're both crazy fitnesspeople.
Crazy will make time.
Strauss, I was literally.
I'm like what's the biggestmeeting you've ever canceled for

(21:01):
a workout?
And he's like I think it wasWarren Buffett.
Like he, he will move a meetingback or cancel one if it
doesn't allow.
There's not a lot in time forhim to get his work out.
It really and I mean not it'she writes the workouts I do.
He's they're way into it, butthey're they're focused on what
they're doing.
Somebody that multitasking isnot really a thing.

(21:22):
Have you heard that?
Oh yeah, You're not reallymultitasking You're just doing
one thing at a time.
So their ability to time managethat you would call
multitasking, but it's not.
They've just gone, we're gonnarelax for this 10 minute period
and then we're doing this, andthen we're doing this, and then
we're gonna like there'sAllotments to have downtime and
relax.
But those guys do not just takea day and I I need a day to do,

(21:45):
to do nothing.
So one of my things of beingable to observe two people that
are that successful, that I'mvery close with I know other
people's really successful, I'mclose with both of these guys
and I've gotten to spend time attheir homes, on vacation with
them and see how they operate.
And the truth is, I need alittle more downtime.
Yeah, not, not not physicaldowntime, but I need a little

(22:10):
more.
I need a little more time.
That just says there's no endto this particular hang.
Mm-hmm, what, whatever it mightbe, I need an afternoon to let
it be and it's that.
But that is the difference there.
They can compartmentalizeemotions, they can.
The time management is reallythe thing.
Oh, totally, total fervor.
But there's a lot of thingsabout those two guys that are

(22:30):
the same and completelydifferent businesses.
That then I'm like okay, numberone, I want a curious, not
envious, so I can look at themand I can tell you the reasons
that I'm not gonna be one ofthem.
And I'm okay with most of thosereasons.
They're not necessarilycharacter defects on my part,
they are life choices.
Right, I need a little bit,especially now, after what I've
been through losing my son andthings that are going on I need

(22:54):
Downtime, I need real downtimeand I don't think they really
get it.

Speaker 1 (22:57):
Yeah, yeah, it's amazing to see the similarities
between well, they're probablyvery, very deliberate with the
things that are most importantto them, right?
And for you and me, thosethings are just different.
We are very deliberate.
Like me, I'm very deliberateabout my family time.
I know that I want to take mykids to school and pick them up
in the afternoon.
So what does that mean?

(23:18):
That means that I don't doanything in the morning or the
afternoon.
I don't schedule meetings, I doeverything in the middle of the
day.
So that takes me off of certainpeople's radar and I've got to
be okay with that, right.
But but you and I have bothexperienced what it's like to
just be all about ourselves too.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
Like.

Speaker 1 (23:36):
I'm done with that.
Like I need to be, I need to beof service to my family, I need
to be of service to my friends,and that being said, those two
guys both are big family.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
Yeah, I know they just it's scheduled.
Yep, it's, it's not last minute, it's, it's scheduled a time
different because they're ondifferent ends and and the time
that they do spend with focus isso much focus is so much focus
and the time with family is soplanned, my family wouldn't go

(24:07):
for it.
Yeah, you're not giving me likeexactly, like 26 hours to hang
right.
If I'm coming, I'm coming upfor the weekend and we're gonna,
you know, and so it'sironically, my, my youngest son
spent the summer with Strauss,or June at least, and you know
he gets home from aninternational flight or

(24:29):
something at 11 o'clock.
He stayed with Strauss in NewYork in his apartment and we get
home at 11 o'clock was for me,it would take me an hour and a
half to get to sleep anyway, andthen at 5 30 they get up to do
a workout with 20 guys.
I've never seen anyone Servemore people than Strauss.
Yeah, first of all, he's in,he's in recovery, he's way until
.
He's amazing guy and he servesand helps and mentors.

(24:51):
I mean hordes of people,amazing.
I thought I was the only onelike, why is he?
You know, well, I'm not theolder guy that he's been
mentoring for 25 years.
Tons, never seen anyone givemore.
It's just your time managementhas to be so strict.
I just wouldn't be able tofunction with those confines.
His children are grown, butit's.
There's a lot of service goingon and a lot of family time.

(25:13):
For someone that busy it'scrazy to be.
You know, just at some point myhead needs to go Right and just
lean back and not.
There's never a time where thathappens.
Okay, I'm gonna get to bed.
It's time, I'm tired and heprobably lays down and goes to
sleep within 30 seconds.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
So there's a dude.
You know who Rob Dierdick is.
He has a show ridiculousness orsomething.
Yeah, so that guy right so grewup as a skater, like in that
world.
This guy will very soon be abillionaire and he was on one of
my favorite podcasts, my firstmillion talking about, and I

(25:47):
think this all came off likecompletely off the cuff.
They just started askingquestions because they were fans
of his and he starts Detailingexactly what you're talking
about.
Every five minute block of hisday is mapped out and what's
funny is, you would think andthere's a reason that this
became one of their biggest hitsone of their best episodes was

(26:07):
he doesn't come across assomebody who's super stressed
out Within his the confines ofwhat he's built and and
optimized.
He is super happy.
He's like I have all the timeoff I need.
I have all the time with myfamily.
I'm killing it in business now.
You know we're starting this,we're doing this, whether but he
knows exactly what's gonnahappen in the next 35 minutes of

(26:28):
his life and tomorrow too, youknow.
So there's something to that.
I get it, but but like you, Iyou know we talked about this,
about working out, and you knowyou getting lean and you know
you're Now.
You got me thinking about that,but it's like how much?
Because we are, we are.
We have addictive personalities, like how far is too far?

(26:50):
You know what I mean.
And I struggle with thatsometimes, like like I will get
really intense into somethingand then I'll realize, oh, I
took it too far, I tooksomething good and I turned it
bad.
So it's like, as you navigatethis stuff in your life, now how
do you, how do you balance that?
Like, how do you know, is it agut feeling now?
Is it just your?
You know, michelle says dude,you need to chill the fuck out,

(27:12):
or you know what is it that Irecognize balances.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
I'm swinging past it, the.
I kind of remember this book,the name of the book, but I just
read a book in the last sixmonths.
Yeah, that's why I can'tremember that you were to
remember the name of the bookand you could read the first
chapter.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
The main.

Speaker 2 (27:27):
You had that but I can't remember this book, but it
basically was saying that it'sokay.
So I'll give you the synopsiswith the working out, because I
am the currently a very addictedto the fitness thing.
It's my hobby but it's alsokind of a compulsion.
So, as you know, me and thelisteners might might not, but

(27:49):
as you do, it's not that theworkout is bad or the fasting or
the protein or the whatever.
Those things in themselves aregood things, but my compulsion
to have to do them can still bea negative thing, even with
positive things.
So what I have to do is makesure that my Well.
For one thing, the compulsionto do good things is better than

(28:11):
the compulsion to bed,certainly better than cocaine
and whiskey, absolutely.
So I do have addictions.
They happen to be healthierthings.
I Could try to not make them acompulsion.
For one thing, I have mademyself take a day, a week off
because the truth is it doesmore for my head than it does
for my body.
Yeah, my brain needs I love theheight to get an outside, being

(28:31):
outside and exercising together.
They say the best possiblething to do to reduce the risk
of Alzheimer's, which is a brainthing, it's to exercise.
Yeah, like it's, so it's verygood.
But I make myself take a dayoff.
I also try to not panic whenthere's a day when I can't work
out.
Yeah, sometimes I have to, likeearly flight land, go to a

(28:53):
riding session and we have a gigthat I'm just not time to work
out and I'll be in a bad moodbecause I can't do that and At
the same time I still don'tthink I have the balance
necessarily down.
There is a we have a tendency tooverdo, and Recognizing that
and talking about it I thinkdissipates it quite a bit and
then just picking healthy thingsto overdo because I am going to

(29:14):
overdo something.
So I'm and I'm not using it asan excuse.
But Another thing is, if you'renot kind of a freak about this
stuff, you don't get the results.
Yeah, and our program of 12step recovery, you get the
benefits based kind of on theamount of what you put into what
you put into it.
Yeah, and it's the same thingwith like so I have friends that
fast Occasionally.

(29:36):
I mean, you know you're gonnaget occasional result.
I'm a little bit of a freakabout it, but I get I got result
cosmetically that I wantedright away.
I'm like oh, I'm in my adultlife I've never been able to get
rid of love handle, so I'mdoing this.
The thing is I'm bad at startingsomething the book, that,
whatever it is but I will makesomething a way of life, like

(29:56):
really the work I mean I put it,put a little workout room in my
garage.
I don't have to leave the houseme too.
I make it really, really,really Accessible and easy, and
literally six days a week mywhole life.
I'm getting ready to go toItaly with my wife and I'm gonna
work out every day and I'mgoing to.
It's just Not because I feellike I have to.
Maybe the compulsions there alittle bit, but the rest of my

(30:17):
day will be better.
Fight, yeah, so I Should have abetter handle on that, and I do
Recognize the idea that I'maddictive and things, but I try
to just try to make thempositive things but I also think
that you know there there canbe a fine line, but you've
chosen something and I've.

Speaker 1 (30:35):
I realized this, I don't know.
Probably it was a little bitafter I got sober, I I wanted to
just feel better, like I wasprobably 10 pounds overweight,
just not feeling right.
And you know, I I hired one ofmy buddies to be my my trainer,
like remote trainer, and what Irealized in that moment, when I
change those things, is I've gotto do stuff that I can do for

(30:57):
the rest of my life.
I can't do these flash in thepan diets.
I can't do like one crazyworkout a week.
I have to do something that'ssustainable for the rest of my
life, and I learned that in theprogram.
Yeah, I 100% did.
What are the things that I needto do every single day to be
saying for me Get down on myknees and pray right, it's
really fast.
I mean literally I am sayingGod, thank you for being with me

(31:20):
today, for showing me your will, and give me the strength to
carry that out, that's it.
And then I say thank you for mywife and my kids and I say each
one of them, that's it.
Then I get up and I get mycoffee and I start going about
my day.
And then, when I go downstairsand I'm sitting there with my
daughter who's getting ready forschool, I Pull out Jesus,
calling that I learned from you.
I love right and in every day.

(31:42):
I mean it's not unlike going toa meeting.
It's something that I need.
I need to read that, like thismorning.
I'm like Recently there beenyou know.
I know you guys read it too thewhole.
The first time I read thank mefor your problems.
Yeah, I'm like I don't wanna,like I don't want problems, and
then you real.
Then you start doing it andyou're like, oh okay, I'm better

(32:06):
, but again that's like a habitthat I need to have for the rest
of my life.
So, whether it's it's eatingright, you know, like you're the
one that got me to start havingyou know the right kind of
shake and and Because you madeit into something, I feel like
that's accessible.

(32:28):
But, it's like.
It's like you know, if I wasnot.
One of my favorite quotes isyou're the average of the five
people you spend the most timewith.
Hmm, I absolutely believe inthat.
So when I get to hang out withpeople like you that I really
admire and and I trust witheverything, and I see you do
something different, or Iremember that and I'm like you

(32:48):
know what I want to do thatbecause it's obvious that he's
getting something out of it,right, whether it's.
You know, you had the hardboiled egg machine and I forgot
I had one at home that I'd usein three years.
Or you reading Jesus Callingwhen we went stage or place at
Tampa last year, I'm like Iordered it while we were there
at your house and it was waitingfor me and you know what that

(33:08):
book has been there on the daysthat I really, really needed it.
Yeah, you know, it's thoselittle things, but if I'm not,
if I'm not out like mycompulsion is to stay home and
be by myself I have to forcemyself to come out and and talk
to people, because that is notmy natural inclination to do
that.

Speaker 2 (33:26):
I'll say this too, back at you with the things,
because they're beyond theopening my purview to write a
book, but also Just the one.
You talk about technology andthe.
You said this is the greatestgeneration we're ever gonna have
only man.
Because I really do kind of go,this is the laziest piece of
shit Generation ever and we justmade them lazier with a
pandemic.

(33:46):
This is really gonna be badnews for everyone and and your
positive, no that's.
I agree with that thing aboutthe people that you hang around
and the truth is I Like being bymyself until I get with other
people and I'm like, oh, youknow, it's like go to that
meeting.
You know you go to the meetingand you always leave.
Go man, I'm sure glad I went tothat meeting, but on the way

(34:07):
there, you're tired of.
The day has happened and thetruth is I could Sometimes I
think like I could just standthis little property here with
me and my wife and let hergarden why, wrote stupid shit on
a computer and you know, read abook and worked out.
I didn't have to leave, unlessthe weather was bad, in which
case I go to Florida, and it'sjust not.
That is just not how it works.
Pain is part of the equation andIf I, I feel like you can

(34:31):
either chase pain or you can letit chase you and that goes for
emotionally, there's, there's,so you know about my, my, the
death of my son, and that I havea group of men that get the
gather together, that of alllost children that we talk and
there are, on occasion, there'ssomeone who's adverse to our
talk about being blessed andtalk about positivity and talk

(34:53):
about joy, and joy and sadness,I believe, are connected.
I found true joy in my sadnessmore than I ever had.
It's not happiness.
Happiness is based oncircumstances.
Joy comes from deep, deep withinand those things, and there
will be a person that doesn'twant to like fuck this.
This is not what I want to hear.
I want to hear God.
I don't feel blessed at all.
I don't want to hear about Godand it's not.

(35:13):
It's a very obviously not areligious group, but very.
We all believe our children arein heaven.
We believe we're gonna see themone day, without a doubt, and
that person that's tied up inthe negativity is simple and
it's complicated as than justletting go of it.
Yeah, and that is somethingthat you do.

(35:35):
You're looking for the positive.
Where did I go wrong?
How can I do better?
But also, hey, man, this ispretty good and the truth is
gratitude, gratitude, gratitude.
Totally.
It gets rid of my fear.
I enjoy learning things.
Now I enjoy getting better atsomething.
First of all, you're talkingabout the workout.
I've always said the bestworkout is the one that you'll

(35:58):
do Period, whatever it is.
I just just people movingaround.
It's like do the things that wecan control, get some exercise,
move around, meet some peoplethat are interesting.
Say yes when you want to say noand say no, maybe, when you
want to say yes to some thingsand learning some discipline.
The truth, I was raised by ahardcore disciplinarian.

(36:19):
Until I got sober, I was nodiscipline to say no to anything
and I just literally thoughtlife was a big high orgasm for
me to have.
And you were just entering mypurview.
Just the most demented shit youwind up with in the music
business, especially because youjust assume that every rock
star floats around flickingtheir ashes of their cigarette

(36:40):
on everybody.
Okay, it's crazy.
Learning some discipline, beingcurious about people that are
successful.
These are not like novel ideas,but for some reason maybe it's
an age thing, but for somereason in the last decade or so
it's become so much moreinteresting to me to be better,
to be better with my money, tobe better with my career, to be

(37:02):
a better father, better friend,and the striving to be better is
kind of a full-time job.
Whatever it is, sometimes I gotto just relax and go.
Today I'm gonna be any better.
Just mail it in, just getthrough.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
It's Sunday.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
Sleep in Don't get better Totally, but I think you
find the same thing.
People on the get I want to getbetter journey are the people I
got locked arms with.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
Oh, dude, 100%.
You know and we've talked aboutthis in our Monday group, that
the people that make it it'sactually pretty small, Like
especially in the recovery world, and we don't really talk about
that a lot, especially whennewcomers around probably not
appropriate but the people thatare really filled with joy, it's

(37:43):
not a high percentage, but I'lltell you what those people are.
Pretty special, yeah, the onesI mean.
Rick was the one who taught meabout joy and the fact he's the
one that taught me that nobodycan steal my joy.
I didn't know that.
I thought that if somebody pissyou off, it's naturally your
joy's going away.
And to me back then I thoughthappiness and joy were the same

(38:04):
thing.
Come to find out they're twovery different things and I
still struggle with it.
So something funny happened tome last night.
I'm on my way to a meeting.
I'm tired, I'm just kind of,you know, not really into it.
We hear all the time there aretwo times to go to a meeting
when you don't want to go andwhen you want to go, right.
And so I went.
And you know it's my home groupand everybody's sharing and we

(38:27):
get to the very end.
I'm like I don't think I'mgonna share today and it is a
small group, so I usually alwaysshare and we have like
literally a minute left beforewe start wrapping up and
everybody looks at me and I'mlike I'm just, you know, because
I'm not in a great mood, andI'm like, fine, whatever.
So I share and of course, youknow it all comes out like in

(38:49):
two other guys had said you know, we didn't really, I didn't
really want to come today, itwas rough day, you know, this
had happened, whatever.
And so I'm like screw it.
Just like these guys said, youknow, I didn't really feel like
being here.
And then, as I was talking andas people were listening, I came
out of my funk and I'm like youknow what, screw this.
Right now my attitude changesbecause I can change whenever

(39:12):
the hell I want.
And then, when I don't evenknow if you were at that when we
were at Wes's house, and he'slike when you leave here, you
should just have a zippitydoodle whistling out your ass
attitude.
And so I said that in themeeting and I'm like I'm in.
Then, you know, everybodylaughed and then I had to give
the chips out and I'm just like,yes, like my change the

(39:33):
attitude and and and I'm likehalfway through it, and and then
music starts playing, like likereally happy rea game music,
and I'm like who?
Who left their phone on?
And I'm like pointing at thewoman sitting next to me and she
goes.
She points at my pocket Somehow.
Some random, really happy reagay song came on my that

(39:56):
literally whistling zippity dohave your ass.
No, that has never in my lifehappened before, ever.
I told you a few minutes ago Inever have my phone up, it's
always on silent.
How did that song play in mypocket in the middle of a group
and everybody's looking at me inshock and then they just we all
lose it.
We just start laughing and Ilook up and I'm like there's

(40:19):
only one person that could havedone that and that's the dude
upstairs.
You know, and I'm just.
It's that reminder again thatin order to get out of my own
shit, I got to do stuff thatmakes me uncomfortable, and you
and I talk about that a bunchthat I have to get out of where
I feel comfortable.
I have to help other people,and I got to.
Really, I think the mostimportant thing is I got to show
up because that is not mynatural inclination to do those

(40:41):
things.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
And yeah, and when, when you step out of that
comfort zone, it's like that isliterally when the thing happens
and it doesn't tend to happen,or to the extent to which you're
willing to step out of yourcomfort zone.
I have a great little story.
It's small but it was big to meand I learned a great lesson
from it.
So I'm in Florida, we have alittle house, it's out on the
beach, and a friend of minefound this guitar that had been

(41:05):
I had loaned to someone and theyhad loaned it away and it got
lost in a shuffle something like25 years ago and it was the
guitar that I had gone into thefire my family's home fire to
pull out.
It was it's a crappy, bc richguitar, but I had run into a
fire to take this guitar outwhen I was a teenager and then
it had gotten lost, whatever.
Somehow they found it.
My friend found it.

(41:26):
He works at Dean Guitars inTampa and they were going to do
a little Fox 13 news special onit in the whatever the Fox
station is in Tampa.
So we're down there.
It's my time to chill.
I don't have enough days onthis particular trip already.
I'm a little unsettled.
I have to get up at like fivein the morning to drive to be on
this morning show.
An hour to Tampa to be on thismorning show.

(41:48):
They're just going to do alittle thing and we might get my
guitar back after all.
This time I'm in a fight with mywife, an argument of over
something that was soinsignificant that I can't even
remember it now.
I think mostly it was that Iwas tired and I had been working
a lot and just flown in andthat I didn't think she was
appreciating my tiredness andhard work, whatever that was In
your presence.
And I'm just pissy and I'mdriving across the Howard

(42:11):
Franklin Bridge which separatesTampa from St Petersburg, and it
is, the sun's coming up, it'sbeautiful, and I'm just pissed
and I have to go to the bathroomand I need to get coffee and I
was assuming that I would stopon this hour drive somewhere
early and I just didn't do itand I didn't do it and I didn't
do it and I got to, likebeautiful sunset, and I'm
driving through and I get intothe downtown Tampa and I'm like

(42:34):
three blocks from the place DeanGuitars, which is in Tampa, and
I'm like, oh my God, I neverstopped to go to the bathroom
and I need coffee and they mightnot have it there.
So I pull into this it's kindof a bad area of town, kind of
where I grew up and I pull intothis gas station and I pull up
and there is this really reallyrough looking character with his

(42:56):
arms inside his sleeves,smoking a cigarette and a kid
young kid and it's a rough place, a rough gas station, a lot of
that going on.
This kid just sitting there andhe's smoking a cigarette.
And I pulled in and it wasliterally.
He looked so daunting and I'mnot, you know, I'm no pus, but I
was like, maybe park around theother side, whatever.
So I parked and I went insideand I walked the other way

(43:20):
around because I didn't want towalk by this guy for fear that
he was going to stab me orwhatever.
And I go inside and I get mycoffee and I go to the bathroom
and I'm coming out and I seethis rough guy.
He's just sitting there andhe's got his arms inside his
sleeves and I just looked at himand I said you want a jacket?
And the tough on his face wentto like sad, whatever.

(43:42):
And he said, yeah, that wouldbe great.
And I went to the back of mycar and I got a hoodie that had
been in the back of my Yukon foryears, probably, whatever and I
gave him the hoodie and say,hey, have a great day.
And immediately, immediately,my okay.
So several things happened to me, though my mood change complete

(44:03):
.
I was no longer mad at my wife.
I called her in the threeblocks between the gas station
and the place I was going toapologize and tell her I'd been
an idiot and I loved her and itwas insignificant.
Why giving somebody a jacket?
Number two, the thing that Iwas afraid of, which I think
maybe a microcosm for a lot ofthings that we do, the thing
that I was afraid of is onlyneeded to be feared because I

(44:25):
was fearing it.
It really was something.
Maybe I should embrace, likeyou say about AI or technology
or this new generation of people.
Maybe if I could learn toembrace the good in everyone and
give what I can, I'll have adifferent attitude about that.
So the fear of this guy in thisarea was gone, my anger at life
was gone, because I just feltgood about doing something
different, and I'm like man, ifthat doesn't teach me the

(44:46):
biggest lesson, kind of acrossthe board.
Everything I'm afraid of isprobably something.
Now, by the way, if we makestupid decisions, if we buy
beanie babies with our savings,we're going to be broke.
If we spoke cigarettes fourpacks a day, we're probably
going to get lung cancer.
And if we cheat on our wives,they're probably going to leave
us.
There are some constants thatare there, but the other stuff

(45:07):
we're afraid of, the nuances.
I think we can, just we can, wecan, we can embrace them.
You've taught me that a lot.
You embrace those things thatyou don't, that you've the fear
that you have of somethingbecause you're not, you're not
comfortable with it, because youdon't know it as well.
And making that step out, Imean if you hadn't stepped out
to write that book that firsttime, if your wife said no, no,
no, god don't do that.
No, she had enough confidenceto say, yeah, take your six

(45:28):
months and write the book.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
Do you want to sit in here if you don't do that?
No, it's crazy, right.
It's funny the when you lookback it seems like such a big
decision that we do certainthings or we've done certain
things, but really in the momentit was a very small decision
because, like for me, I couldhave just laid down and taken an
app For you.
I mean, you could have said, no, I'm not going to Nashville,

(45:51):
we're going to stay in Tampa,we've got gigs down here and
we're making some money.
We're just going to make thatwork, right?
You know the other, the otherthing too.
Before we get done and I want tobe cognizant of your time,
let's talk about your.
You know the podcast and howthat came about.
Obviously, you lost your son.

(46:11):
That sent you down a differentpath that you weren't expecting.
Obviously, that's one of thereasons, you know.
You talk about the time when,when we met in the rooms, when I
first met you, you know you'rethe guy with long hair kind of
looks like Jesus.
I knew you were in the musicbusiness, but I know not to ask
most of the time, right, andthen we end up having the same

(46:34):
sponsor.
So we get a little bit closer.
But I mean really cause ofCOVID?
Right, cause we had a meeting,outside meetings, and we got to
know each other.
And then what happened with Sageand um, I saw you take a
different path and it wasn't thepath that I expected.
Instead of, instead offloundering like I've seen other
people do, you, I've told otherpeople and I think I've told

(46:59):
you the spiritual journey thatyou've been on is like it's like
it's like watching a fuckingmiracle in real time, and I
don't know how to explain itother than to point out little
things that I've seen you dowhether that's have a little
more faith In doing somethingdifferent.
Right, going back out on theroad and doing more shows when
you thought you didn't want tofucking do that anymore, being

(47:22):
closer to your wife now insteadof I've seen other people lose a
child and they they're divorcedwith any year, right, yeah,
like, why do you think for you?
You know the question was gonnabe about about a podcast, but I
think that the better questionfor me is why do you think you
went down that route, that road,instead of the other way?

Speaker 2 (47:42):
It's a good question, man.
That's a great question and Ithink the podcast probably wraps
all into that.
But being in recoveryDefinitely set me up for this.
My son be having difficultieswith substance abuse set me up

(48:02):
for this.
My wife and I got close.
We participated in the solution.
The truth is, because I'm analcoholic or a recovering
alcoholic, I knew I wasn't gonnabe that guy at the end of the
bar getting padded on the headoh man, for you got a rough time
and I'm over there.
I have the excuse.
Part of the alcoholic side ofme says Okay, now you have an
excuse to just go be that drunkand no one's gonna blame you.

(48:24):
And I always had a quietagreement with God that if he
ever took one of my children, Iwas gonna drink the rest of my
life and fuck him.
He shouldn't have done this.
And and somehow that neverentered my mind because when
this happened I immediately feltGod.
I don't know how to describe it, but I immediately felt God.
I felt like sage was with myfather who passed away 20 plus

(48:44):
years ago.
I, I just felt God and I justthe love people showed me, our
money night group, just walkingthrough this with you guys and
my people in the music business,and it was just amazing.
I felt so much God, I couldn'tforsake him in that time because
so I'm not sure If this wouldhave happened without this

(49:07):
happening or not.
But this, I'm gonna tell youthis little story that I think
changed everything.
If there's one little momentBefore the funeral, before sages
funeral, he, I Wrote upsomething that I wanted to say
and I talked to the priest,who's a great friend, who's also
in recovery, he's one of myfavorite people in the world,
and and and I said, hey, I thinkI want to talk at the funeral.

(49:30):
And he said why don't you typeit out and Give me a copy?
And you have a copy in yourpocket?
And he said because a lot ofpeople think they want to talk
and it gets there and it justdoesn't happen.
It's not, it's not good, it'sjust too much.
And I Said, okay, good deal, no, we have a Catholic funeral.
It's way too long.
Some dudes singing songs.
I wanted to go shut up, justget done.

(49:52):
I don't want to hear any moresongs.
I had a few of my niece issaying was great.
My friend Ernest saying and itgot to be kind of long.
But we walked in the door thefirst thing, walked down the
aisle and this is huge pictureof sage and he's looking me
right in the eye and I mean heliterally he's looking at you

(50:12):
know the picture that no matterwhere you go, they're looking at
his face.
He's looking at me right in theeye for that picture.
And I look, I could literallyhear him saying if you got
something to say, motherfucker,you get up there and say it.
And I felt like so we, we satdown.
I had been, I had been sittingfor literally 30 seconds into an
hour long funeral.
I was the last thing to be totalk and I looked at the priest
that said I'm talking and he'slike sure, I said I'm talking,

(50:36):
I'm.
He told me at that moment and Iwent up and did that speech
through tears Gushing orwhatever that it was, and got
through that speech.
And when it was done that wasso uncomfortable for me to do
and when it was done, I was likeI felt euphorically high, like
something had happened to me,and I just stopped caring what
anyone thought and I startedgoing.

(50:57):
Whatever's left of this earthjourney we have, I am not going
to sit around the corner, beingafraid of what might happen,
because if I'm not afraid to die, anything between where I am
right now and death should be apiece of cake.
So I'm going to do this stuff.
All of this stuff I'm gonna.
I didn't really want to startthe podcast my we.

(51:17):
We did a, we did a benefitConcert in Austin.
It's a charity that called Mack, jack and McConaughey and it's
Jack Ingram, who's an old friendof ours, mack Brown, who's a
former Texas coach in MatthewMcConaughey, who everyone knows,
and Sitting in case a coolevent.
But you know, sitting in thecatering room, eaten by myself,
and this guy comes up to me andsay I'm a podcast producer.

(51:39):
I do Jack Ingers podcast.
I've seen you on a couplethings.
I think you need to do podcastson grief.
Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 1 (51:46):
I'm not doing that, you know we have anyway we
switch.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
We talked for a while , it's interesting, his concept,
and I thought it was cool.
But we talked a few times and Ikept telling my wife why I
wasn't doing that.
And then one morning, you know,I was saying yeah, I talked to
Matt again, it's just reallycool ideas.
Yeah, but I'm not doing this.
And she goes oh, you're doingthat.
And I don't know if it was adirective or a prediction, but
it happened.
And those little things, thatspeaking at his funeral instead

(52:09):
of letting the priest read itI'm not, by the way, I have no
problem with anyone who doesn'tspeak at a funeral, because I
get it.
I was there, but for somereason, that moment was a moment
for me that just said Go takethis thing by the balls, go find
God, go find your God, not theBaptist God you grew up, but go
find God, find Jesus, find truth, find meaning, find joy,

(52:32):
embrace sadness, embrace pain,find other people.
If this works in a a where wefind other people that have the
same ailment as us.
I'll tell you this I don't knowmany things that I would say
scream from the rooftops.
I know this to be true, but Iknow this to be true.
If you have an ailment, findother people with that ailment
and fucking meet with them,congregate with them, make them
part of your life.

(52:52):
Maybe it's cussers anonymousthat I need to go to whatever it
might be me both.
Find those people, because thatis, that's a, that's a definite
yeah, there's no doubt aboutthat.
And I really do believe thatlosing my son was going to send
me.
He's spinning in one directionor the other and it's not man.

(53:12):
My life is not perfect and itwill never be the differences.
I'm okay with that and and it'sit's more meaningful, even on a
bad day, I have faith, I havetrust, I much more trust, and I
Feel like I'm in his will forthe most part.
You know, not every second ofevery day, but like what is the

(53:34):
next right thing to do?
And I think, if we putourselves in that position to
say, alright, god, I got nothingleft of me, how do you want
this to be used?
And it's like do a podcast,write a book, sponsor people in
AA, meet with your, meet withyour core group every Monday
night to give you the you knowthis the strength to get to the
week.
Find people.

(53:55):
I have people in Florida nowthat there are like people that
have lost Kids and and people inrecovery.
Um, it's a.
The alternative sucks.
Yeah, I don't.
I mean, I don't want to be thatthat drunk.
I had to bar getting patted onthe head.
I'm not.
I'm so glad that I didn't takethat Opportunity to my wife even
said she said I don't, by theway, just so you know I don't, I

(54:17):
don't blame you if you drink, Iwon't divorce you and I'm like
you think that really sweet ofyou to say you know what you're
saying not because of the firstdrink, because it lasts right,
you knowand and and that's just.
That's a gift of God isenlightening.
I'm tougher Every in every way,and I don't mean time, I don't

(54:41):
mean, I Don't even say stronger,I say tougher I'm.
God gives me strength, so I'mweak, I'm okay with being weak
and all that emotionally.
But I'm also tougher becauseI'm willing to take more blows
Physically, emotionally,spiritually, whatever and not
turn around and run yeah, justtake the blows.
And you take the blows.

(55:01):
You're still standing and allof a sudden feels pretty good.
You ever get to fight whenyou're a kid and it felt
terrible in it and you got done,you're like oh yeah, rawr,
that's rawr.
I think there's a way for us.
I mean, I hope everyone hereand this doesn't get to lose a
kid to find this stuff.
But I'm telling you we can liveour lives with more meaning by
getting rid of fear, embracingdiscomfort.

(55:21):
I just wanted to do a podcastwhere I was the cool guy, I want
to be the music Joe Rogan andsit and talk, and if I wrote a
book, I want to be funny and howI looked great at the end and
everything worked out perfectlyand that just didn't happen.
That wasn't my path, but I I dofeel like, if anything has been
conscious, I've said okay, thisis my plate, I'm gonna embrace

(55:43):
this path.
What would you have me do?
And there's no way to make itperfect anymore.
I can't.
I had a vision of what I wasgonna do with my children.
We're gonna have sons, my sonsare gonna have sons and I we're
gonna have this many great, Idon't have any plans anymore.
I have no control over whatthey do when they're adults.
I need to show love to everyoneI'm around.
I need to be a good father orgood husband, a good partner, a

(56:05):
good friend.
I need to not be afraid to dosomething out of my comfort zone
and I'd be not be afraid to sayno to something I know is not
good for me.
It's almost that simple and I'mactually grateful for the
journey.
Yeah, we're all gonna die andI'm okay, or would die, and that
ever was before.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
Oh, I know you've said that a few times it's just,
it's Not just the journey, butthe strength that you've, you're
now walking in, is what, what Isee and what other people see.
And it's why you know, it's whythe producer came up to you.
I remember when you came backand you mentioned that you came
back from being out of town.

(56:42):
You're like dude, that's.
Can you believe this guy?
And I'm like in my head, I'mgoing You've been telling me
something was on deck.
Oh dude, I knew it from the verybeginning, you know, because,
again, it's like I saw somethinghappen to you and I couldn't
explain it.
It was just this feeling, whatI will tell you and I don't know
if I've ever mentioned this toyou before, I don't even know if

(57:04):
I've said this in public IRemember I don't remember where
we were when, when it was thefirst time you told me about
that you had made a promise thatif you lost your son or one of
your kids, that you would drinkAlmost the day that I quit
drinking.
I made that promise too.

(57:24):
I said this is it, this is my,this is my hard line, god, yeah,
so fuck you if you ever do thisto me.
Yeah, you saying that to me,took that off the table.
Oh good, yeah, good, because,because, again, I'm a
knucklehead, right, I'm a verybasic man.
If I think that I'm special,then I think that I can do

(57:44):
things that are outside the norm.
When I hear people that Iadmire say things that make
sense and they live them, whichyou are living them, then I'm
like, oh, that's the right wayto do it.
But if I don't see it and hearit and then experience it, it
doesn't sink in because I've gota thick fucking skull.
So I'm just blessed youmentioned, if you have something

(58:06):
, go find other people that havethat thing right, like you
starting the dad's group.
Do you have no idea?
When you told us that, like therest of us just smiled like
this is what Brad's meant to do.
You know what I mean Like helpother people, and I think that's
the biggest thing that I'veseen from you.

(58:26):
Is that not that you didn'thelp people before?
That's not what I'm saying atall.
But this is Was it first on myagenda?

Speaker 2 (58:33):
No, it was not.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
But this has somehow opened you up into being
something else for others.
Right To offering that hoodieto the guy standing outside the
gas station, to saying yes to apodcast, to saying yes to
sitting down with me for twohours All these things that I
remember.
Wes used to tell me when I washaving a really bad day, he

(58:56):
would say let's think backbefore, when you first came into
the program.
Compare that day with today.
Are you better?
Absolutely Okay.
So what are we talking aboutnow?
And that just.
I need that perspective.
So, when somebody else is goingthrough something, and whether
it's similar or different orwhatever and it can be an
example to me because I'm alwayswatching, right, because I

(59:20):
don't want what you have, but Iwant what you're doing, you know
what I mean.

Speaker 2 (59:25):
No, no, I want what you have and that's not
materially.
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
Like I remember coming into the program in the
beginning and not reallyunderstanding I didn't know the
rules, I didn't know all thisother stuff but very quickly I
came to understand.
I would see somebody in therooms and they just look like at
peace and they're filled withjoy.
And then after the meeting, allthese people like that's how I
met Wes all of a sudden allthese people were congregating
around him and I'm going whatdoes he have Like, what is he

(59:54):
doing?
And that's how I first met himwas.
I was just curious.
I'm like I don't know why allthese people want to talk to him
, because you know he can be apretty quiet guy and all that
sort of thing, veryintrospective, but then he's
been one of the pivotal peoplein my life, you know.
But now I have the courage togo up and talk to people like
that, because before I wouldn'tsay I wouldn't come up to a Brad

(01:00:16):
Warren and go hey, man, what'syour deal?
You know like I will literallysay that to people now and
they're like what do you mean?
I'm like I don't know there'ssomething about you, man, I just
don't get it.
Like, what's your?
Why do you have this vibe Like,why do you just seem like
content?
And I ask people that kind ofstuff now and it shocks them at
first and then they're like.
Then they get it.

(01:00:36):
They're like, oh okay, so thisis what it's all about and
something about that freedom tonot give a shit.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
And, by the way, god, we will learn so much more if
we can do that.
I have actually recently goneto people after an AME and said
thank you, I love your take.
You're like really, oh, wow,thank you, what was it?
And I tell them a couple ofthings and they're like oh
really, someone said the otherday.
This girl said you know,alcoholics are the only people
that will treat loneliness withisolation.
Man, that's so.

(01:01:06):
I've been trying to think ofthat for not for me and for
friends for years.
Like, yeah, that's it.
Oh, I'm feeling lonely so I'mgonna stay home tonight, you
know, so we do it.
No, yeah, hello.
There's a lot of common senseinvolved in it, but we're
emotional beings and we care toomuch how we feel.
The truth is today, it's noneof my business how I feel.

(01:01:26):
My feelings are bullshit and myfeelings will get me in trouble
.
And when I'm hungry, I don'thave to eat, and when I'm tired,
I don't have to not work out.
And when I'm sad, I don't haveto crawl into a hole.
I can get on the phone and Ican call somebody.
And if I listen to my feelings,I'm gonna do everything wrong
all day.
But luckily, little bit ofinformation, I know what the

(01:01:47):
right thing to do is.
So I put that sucker on autodrive and we're gonna do that,
whether we feel like it or not.
And an hour later, whether it'sphysical, emotional, spiritual
or whatever, I'm feeling betterfor not listening to my feelings
and my emotions and doing whatI know to be right, and then
we're gonna have a better restof the day.
It's like my friend Tim O'Neillsays you're not having a bad

(01:02:08):
life, you're having a bad day.
In fact, you're probably havinga bad hour and we can get
carried away and I can make.
I have some people in ourprogram.
They have a bad thing happenand they still go drink.
They'll have years under theirbelt and the bad thing happens
they go drink and they startover.
I hope those people all make itand I love them dearly.

(01:02:28):
But man, I don't wanna do itthat way.
I wanna be able to have a badday, the worst day I could have
imagined.
I got to have the worst day Iimagined and somehow all of
those meetings added up orwhatever it is.
All the meeting with jackasseslike you and all our buddies
kept me from drinking that firstday and that second day and
that third day and now it's beenthree and a half years since

(01:02:49):
then and I'm so glad I did adrink and man.
So whatever I did was justenough, or whatever I didn't do
didn't screw me up bad enough tonot take that drink early on.
Shoo, thank you, you know Right.
Thank you to you, thank you tothe program, all of it Cause
that one little decision, causeyou said it, it's a little tiny

(01:03:09):
decision.
All I had to do was go that dayand get something to drink and
who knows, oh, who knows theshit show that's in here.

Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
I mean, we've seen it .
We've seen it with our friendsright.
One bad day, one bad minute,and they decide that picking
something up or acting in acertain way Because you know,
like today I don't think I'mgonna pick up a drink, but I
sure as hell can act out or saysomething stupid to my wife and
that will throw my world into atailspin.

(01:03:39):
So why am I doing that?
It's cause something's wrong.
The other thing too, while youwere talking, it made me realize
, like I remember when peoplewere like well, you gotta be
okay being at a five, you know,level one through 10, you gotta
be okay.
And I was like that's bullshit,that's total bullshit.
You know, cause I'm a dreamer,I wanna be at a 10.
Over time I came to realizebeing at a five is being okay.

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
And you can put the dream at a five.

Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
Oh yeah, yeah, you can be at a five, while the
dream is or isn't happening,right, yeah, and the thing I
realized the more days I was ata five, actually, the more days
I was actually at a seven, youknow, because I was just okay
and so I started having thesebetter days and it just, I don't
know, it completely changed mylife.
And you know, we've beentalking for two hours and I

(01:04:23):
don't wanna keep you anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:04:25):
I'm sure we will do this again.

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
Plus, you know we probably both have to go use the
bathroom.
But, dude, I just wanna thankyou for doing this.
Thank you for being one of themost important people in my life
.
Like I try not to be jealouswhen other people like my good
friends hang out with otherpeople, cause, like, really for
me it's I wanna be part of thattoo, but it's been so cool to

(01:04:46):
see you help so many people youknow, and you've introduced me
to one person in particular, whothe three of us will get
together again soon who has alsobecome a very, very big part of
my life.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
So it's like we're just connecting the dots as we
go and, yeah, just I wanna sayback at you I mean, honestly,
carlos, you're one of myfavorite people in the world.
It's like I learned so much,and the truth is I don't know
about helping anyone, but it's.
The irony is, when we do thingsthat the intent of is to help

(01:05:18):
someone, we wind up helping.
So I am actually probably moreselfish than ever, but I figured
out the way to really get itdone.
Really get it done is go try tohelp somebody else, and it
wasn't working for us, so I'msuper grateful for you.
I'll do this anytime, all rightman.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
Well, with that, we are out.