119 Daniel Lona celebrates the third anniversary of hosting The Chess Experience by sitting in the guest chair, interviewed by previous guest and adult club player Omar Mills.
Three years ago, Daniel Lona launched The Chess Experience with a simple yet unique mission: to create chess content by and for adult improvers - a rare thing in the chess world at that time.
Now, with over 100 episodes and countless insights from his guests shared, Daniel talks about the journey, philosophy, and future of his podcast.
In this episode, he discusses:
- Why the podcast has had a goal of 50% women guests since Day 1.
- The uniqueness of a club player as a host, bringing questions that resonate with amateur players but rarely get asked in chess media.
- Daniel’s top four dream guests for the show.
- Plans to expand the podcast into a YouTube channel to grow the show and create exciting, new content formats.
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- Submitting questions to guests
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- Exclusive behind-the-scenes updates about the show
- DM me any month for a brief chat on chess or episodes
Click here to join the Patreon for The Chess Experience.
Or you can…
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Daniel (00:05):
Hey, welcome to the chess experience On this show.
It's all about helping adultimprovers.
I want to make learning chesseasier for you to navigate, and
I also want you to have a morefun experience along the way.
I'm your host, Daniel Lona, afellow chess amateur.
Let's get to it.
(00:25):
This show is sponsored bychesscom, the world's largest
chess community.
Chesscom recently launched anew way to learn from your games
with a feature called insights.
If you visit chesscom slashinsights, you can get detailed
stats and analysis in any of thetime controls you've played and
across any time period.
What kind of things can youlearn?
(00:46):
Well, you can learn.
What time of day do you playyour best morning, afternoon or
night?
What part of the game are youstrongest or weakest?
Opening, middle game or endgame?
Are you making more or lessmistakes than opponents at your
level?
You can find out all this greatinfo and much more at chesscom
slash insights.
(01:12):
Welcome to this week's show.
This time we're doing things alittle differently because the
show is celebrating its threeyear anniversary.
It's pretty amazing to me thatI've reached this milestone, and
I hope you've had a reallyenjoyable time hearing the wide
variety of guests that haveappeared on this show.
In fact, there's been over 100guests so far and I can easily
say that doing this podcast hasbeen one of the greatest
(01:33):
experiences and honors of mylife.
So, to celebrate its thirdanniversary, I thought I'd be
the one in the guest chair forthis episode, where I'll be
interviewed about the showitself, and in the role of the
host is fellow adult club playerand previous guest on the show,
Omar Mills.
In our chat I talk about why Icreated the show, what makes it
(01:55):
different than other chesscontent, who are some of my
favorite guests, goals that Ihave for the show and four dream
guests that I'd like to have.
One other thing about myconversation with Omar we're
good friends, so we end uptalking a lot, and our
conversation went pretty long.
Or I just talk too much.
Either way, I'm splitting ourtalk over two episodes.
(02:16):
The first half will be thisweek and the second half will be
next week.
Why not celebrate for a fulltwo weeks, right?
The last thing I'd like tomention before sharing my chat
with Omar is that I'd love tohear your positive experiences
with the show.
What do you like about it?
What do you think makes itunique?
Was there a particular episodeor guest that affected you
(02:39):
positively.
It could be because thatepisode helped your chess a lot,
or it could be because thatepisode helped your chess a lot,
or it could be something deeperand even a little more
emotional than that.
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Please share them with me and Imay even read it in the intro
to next week's episode.
There's a few ways you canreach me to share your thoughts.
One I have a link to thecontact form on my website in
(03:01):
the show notes.
Or you can dm me, Twitter orInstagram.
I'll have links to my accountsfor both of those in the show
notes.
Or, if you're listening to thisepisode on Spotify, you can
just simply comment directly onthis episode.
However you choose to contactme, I'd love to get a message
from you about something you'veenjoyed about this podcast and
(03:22):
there's a good chance I'll shareit with my community.
All right, here's Omar Millsinterviewing me about three
years of running this podcast.
Omar (03:35):
The Chess Experience.
I hope you enjoy it.
Well, Daniel, the thing Iwanted to remind you of is that
years and years and years ago, Isaid I wanted your soul and
your show.
So I just want you to know I'mhalfway there.
You are halfway there today.
Daniel (03:46):
Yes, exactly, I was going to mention that I'm like
at least two or three occasionsyou've mentioned you want to
take my show?
Omar (03:54):
Yeah, I was like I want this.
I can't get your soul.
I still can't beat you, butI'll take this.
Daniel (03:58):
I will take this.
I can go partway, I can give itto you for a week.
You have the show for a week.
This week, the show is yours.
Sir, Repeat what you said to mebefore we started, when I said
the reins of the show are inyour hands now.
I said that's dangerous.
I said that's very dangerous.
Omar (04:13):
I think at first I was like wow, I'm humbled, I'm
honored, but also that's verydangerous to something that I
said that I wanted.
Jokingly on x formally twitter,right and funny that that has
that.
That has come to come to be inin in a small piece.
(04:34):
I still don't I still haven'tgotten you yet on the on the
board.
I don't know that I ever willyou're, you're, you're too good
man you're way too good, yourbest chance right now.
Daniel (04:44):
So if you can convince me to play right now because I'm
just like in maintenance mode,at best right now we can talk
about that, listen, manmaintenance mode for you is
still dangerous.
Omar (04:54):
Okay, so do you want to just kind of dive in?
Man, let's dive in.
All right, whatever you got forme, why did you make this show?
What was the?
You know the?
In fact, let me ask you to thisway, why did you make the show?
But also, I want to commend youfor the courage of doing it,
(05:16):
because there's a ton of chesscontent.
That's our cause.
People would come to me and theysay you, omar, you should start
a show.
And I said I'm a bunch betterguest than I am host, you know,
and my answer would always bewell, there's, you know, there's
so many good shows that arealready out there, you know, and
I don't know that I can doanything that's going to.
Yeah, I can't compete, you know, with those, those shows, or
(05:40):
doing it like the best I canmatch, but you managed to carve
out a space that's very uniqueto you and it compliments, and
so I want to commend you forthat and ask was that what your
intent always was?
You know, had you alwaysthought of it that way or did
that just evolve as the showevolved?
Daniel (06:02):
Yeah, that's a good question.
So I think there's two parts tothat.
One is like why did I even wantto create a podcast chess
content at all?
And then second, like whatwithin it was I trying to do?
So?
The why I wanted to create apodcast at all was because I was
playing chess, playing andstudying chess three hours a day
, absolutely loving it, and feltlike that wasn't enough for me.
(06:24):
So I think a lot of peoplemight relate to that right Like
just three hours that's all Iget today.
But basically I started to get asense that, you know, competing
professionally was notsomething I was probably going
to be doing, and so if I wasn'tgoing to be competing in chess,
how could I make chess somethingthat was my whole life?
(06:44):
And, you know, creating chesscontent was one way towards that
.
I had actually was coming offof a podcast before then that I
had created very short lived,but it was for my copywriting
business.
It was a marketing and sales so.
But I had already stopped thatpodcast by the time I was
getting into chess.
But because it was somewhatrecent, I had felt like you know
(07:06):
, sort of podcast was on thebrain still and I had gone
through the initial steps ofcreating one.
So it didn't feel intimidatingto me Like, and how would I even
create a podcast?
I knew the steps, I had acourse, so it was very doable.
And I just felt, like you know,like, podcasts are very popular
, so it was something that Iknew would be a format that
could work.
And then the second part of itis then like well, what kind of
(07:28):
podcast are you going to create?
Like, what's the point of doingthis?
Well, I felt like, and this isprobably like bias, self-serving
, selfish, I don't know, butlike I felt like we weren't
represented enough.
We, meaning adult improvements,adult club players yeah,
weren't fully represented enoughin the chess content scene,
it's like almost exclusivelytitle players who are doing this
(07:49):
, and that's great.
I want them to be out there,but I also wanted our
perspective to be out there.
And content made for us that wasaccessible to us.
Not that you had something.
You didn't have to be advancedin chess, you could be beginner
or intermediate and you couldappreciate the content.
You could dive into thatcontent.
So I wanted something thatspoke to our level and I felt
(08:13):
like that was something that Icould do.
Of course, I joke and say thatlike like, sort of like, the
nature of my show is you'veyou've never heard a worst
player interview such talentedchess players.
You've never heard a worseplayer interview such talented
chess players Like.
That always tickled me as Iwent along, like, oh, this is
the first time.
You've always, like, a lot ofmy guests have been interviewed
(08:35):
before, right, but they've neverbeen interviewed by a player as
weak as me.
And the questions that I wouldhave and there's something
comical about that, but there'ssomething interesting about that
too that dynamic of, hey, Iknow a little bit of chess
compared to you.
Let's see how that conversationwould go Someone who's really
advanced talking to someone who,from their perspective, is
pretty basic at chess, and Ithought that that just wasn't
(08:56):
out there, but I thought itwould be a unique and
interesting format, that's.
Omar (09:03):
I mean, you gave me a lot of thoughts around that that's.
That's very interesting one.
I love how you put it that.
Here's something that made methink of, and I got this from
one of my coaches the butcheryou know, and he was talking
about.
I want to say that this mighthave been the world championship
when magnus was playing nepo.
It might have been the olympiad, it's somewhere around that
(09:25):
time.
We were having having atraining session and he was like
he coaches the, like hiscountry's team, like he's like
the national coach, you know,for them, and so he's very
interested in it.
And one of the things that youknow he was asking me like while
we were training.
He was like hey, are you goingto watch this?
(09:45):
And I'm like yeah, of courseI'm going to watch it.
And he's like man, we're alljunkies for this, aren't we?
And I find that that's trueregardless of level.
If chess is on or available,pogchamps, I think, is a great
example of I will watch the heckout of that if given the
opportunity great example of Iwill wash the heck out of that.
(10:06):
You know if, given theopportunity, I think too, the
explosion of chess and thenumber of people rediscovering
it or discovering it for thefirst time has grown
exponentially, and so you'veprobably seen this in your
numbers, in terms of how peoplehave come, have found your show
and have been listening to it.
So I believe that it'srefreshing for these top players
(10:33):
to answer questions in thatsense, and I think, give
yourself more credit, man,you're not a bad player, uh,
you're.
You're an outstanding player.
You're.
In fact, if you look at yourrating compared to you know
people in the world, you'rebetter than most of the world,
you know.
So no one's going to be on thelevel of these.
(10:55):
You know the people that you're, you're interviewing, they're,
they're unique.
Just any title, quite frankly,is herculean you know just to
reach.
You know so, and I certainlyhave an appreciation for that
more now than I did four yearsago when I was getting started,
you know.
But I think that that'ssomething that you know there's.
There's a draw for that,there's a uniqueness to that,
(11:18):
and you've created that space tothat end.
Man, are there any episodes,because you've done a bunch now
are there any?
That have stood out more thanothers, and it's okay if you
don't say mine it's okay.
Daniel (11:33):
You mean after yours, besides yours.
Omar (11:35):
Besides mine, yeah, are there any that stand?
Daniel (11:39):
out are objectively, regardless of my, of course.
I loved our conversation.
No doubt but so did my audience.
You have one of my topdownloaded episodes of my entire
show.
Omar (11:52):
Wow, that's humbling, yeah , very humbling, so yeah, people
loved hearing from you.
It's the rapport man that wehave.
We've had this for a long time.
Daniel (12:00):
Yeah.
Omar (12:00):
We've been doing this for a minute.
Agreed, but go ahead.
Daniel (12:09):
I long time.
Yeah, we've been doing this fora minute.
Yeah, go ahead, I'm sorry, no,no, yeah, that's all right, I
mean yeah, I mean there's acouple of ways that I could
probably look at that like whatare the standout ones?
I'm gonna go with thinking ofit as like most meaningful for
me.
So you know, like this isn'tlike about what was best or what
performed well, it's just likefor me personally as a host.
There were two people.
One was jenn Shahadi.
And in particular, the firstepisode that we had together.
I love the second one that wedid, you know, but there's just
(12:32):
something about my first timetalking with her, and she she
actually was interested to talkto me too, like she wanted to
know what I was like because wehad a Twitter connection,
twitter relationship, yeah, butshe wanted to know what I was
like in person, and, of course,I was just like in awe of the
chance to get to speak to her,and let me explain why she was
meaningful to me.
She's one of, like my biggestinspirations in chess, yeah,
(12:54):
yeah, here's why.
Not only is she superaccomplished, which is worth
admiring unto itself.
Facts, I mean just in terms ofnumbers, there's a lot of very
accomplished chess players.
What stands out about her,though, for me, is that, in
addition to that, she's usingchess as a force for good.
She's trying to make the gamemore welcoming to everybody, in
(13:19):
particular, for women and girls,and she's trying to make it a
place that she's trying to, youknow, make it a place that she's
trying to make chess a placethat treats them well, welcomes
them, makes it a place that theywant to stay and be in.
That's like her life missionnow with chess is to make it a
better place for people.
And I was like, wow, that'sincredible.
(13:39):
You got into this sport slashgame, you freaking conquered it
Two-time USs women's championand now you're just using it to
make the world a better place,like if I felt like I could say
that about my chess journey, Iwould to die happy, so to speak.
Like that that's that's peak tome and that's why talking to
her was so meaningful, because Iknew that going into it, that's
(14:00):
why I loved her so much and whyI wanted her on the show.
And so the chance to talk tosomebody like that, who's so
accomplished and has done somuch good for the game, that was
really meaningful to me.
Omar (14:10):
But I'll mention my second person in a moment, just in
case you're making to say I justwant to just want to react, man
, just just to echo everythingyou know that you've said.
I've never had an opportunityto really talk with her real
time, but we have exchangedmessages on Twitter, slash X and
Jennifer.
I reached out to her when wewere doing the t-shirt sales,
(14:37):
when I had the branded shirtsand we were giving proceeds to
US Chess Women, and she was theperson I spoke to to kind of say
hey, how does this work?
And was just very, very kind.
You know, could have easilyjust blown me off.
Never did that, was always justaccessible and did not have to
(15:00):
be, I'd say, the biggest thing,I'd say the humility that she
has given her accomplishmentsand to still be accessible.
I know enough, just on her.
Very rarely do.
You see?
There's a saying I have talentwill take you where character
won't keep you, and I can't saythat about Jennifer Shahadi.
(15:20):
Her character shines evenbrighter than her skills and she
could easily feel herself onthat and she doesn't, you know,
uh, and when you leave the gamebetter than you found it,
because the game wasn't alwayskind to her, but for her to take
that and fuel it and turn itinto a positive, it just, it
(15:41):
just speaks.
So, no, that that is absolutelyI get why that one stood out to
you.
It's just, yeah, it's honored,just to meet her.
Daniel (15:49):
You know, much less get to interview her twice like
that's, that's amazing man yeah,it really is, and I think you
know what you talked about there, omar with her like that's.
One of the reasons I love hertoo is that she, she, she
doesn't act like she is a chesscelebrity, but she doesn't act
like one.
She acts like one of us.
She acts like she never actslike she's too important to talk
(16:10):
to anybody who's connected tothis game, who wants to reach
out to her.
Omar (16:14):
She's so accessible and.
Daniel (16:16):
I mean that's another reason why she's a role model.
It's just like I don't have ahundredth of her influence or
fame or whatever, but people areaware of me and whenever they
want to connect with me I try toremember that.
You know, just like, beaccessible.
It was like I think.
I think it's just a greatlesson in life.
It's just, you know, never betoo big for anybody, no matter
what you've accomplished.
You know it's a beautiful thingto see with him, yeah.
(16:37):
Which is yeah, yeah, that'sfunny.
It's like I'm so like I need toask you a question now.
So the second one is brucepandolfini, actual master, bruce
pandolfini yeah, man yeah.
So this goes back to my chessorigin story.
One of the big things that gotme super excited about chess was
(17:00):
seeing the movie searching forbobby fisher in the 90s and you
know, real life person.
He's portrayed as a characterin that movie.
I'm sure more than half myaudience has seen it, but in
case they haven't yet, he's acharacter in that movie.
And after I saw that movie Igot super excited about chess
and started buying up a bunch ofchess books.
Well, whose books were they?
(17:21):
Bruce Pandolfini's.
So I kind of consider him myfirst chess coach because of
that, because I first reallylearned the game beyond the
rules.
I first learned the game fromhim.
So then to just have him on mypodcast was surreal and amazing.
And I mean this guy's, like youknow he's also behind the
scenes on all everything chessin movies and shows, right Like
(17:41):
he's the consultant.
Yeah, you know, he was aconsultant for Queen's Gambit.
He was you know, like he was.
Of course the movie has, youknow, a character of him in
Searching for Bobby Fishel, buthe was a consultant for that and
all these other things.
Wherever Chess is in a movie,like he consulted on that and so
like he just has like all andjust having him on the show was
(18:01):
absolutely surreal, one of themost meaningful things to me.
So I would say I would saythose two, you know, for like
different kinds of reasons, butlike those, those were very
impactful episodes for me.
Omar (18:10):
So let me ask you this, so I'm going to dovetail that
because again, you're, you're,you're speaking to chess,
royalty and legends, you knowit's a that.
That's.
How do you prepare forsomething like that?
(18:33):
I know that you're a veryregimented guy, but nothing
really can prepare you to have aconversation with your hero in
that blue.
Susan pogar is like hey, I'm intown and I'm over at epcot,
(18:56):
come, come meet me.
You know, just out the blue andone.
I'm shocked that like I'mgetting a text message from
susan pogar.
Daniel (19:04):
Right that alone is just like you know stunned so
Omar (19:08):
I go over there and in.
In going over there, there wasa part of me that was like well,
I got to grab one of her books,I got to get her to sign
something, I got to do this.
I got to do that.
Terrified, I'm nervous, eventhough Ian and I had already
talked to her for our stream.
So it's not like there was nocontext, we'd met, we'd spoken.
(19:31):
But now I'm meeting you inperson and I'm, you know, a kid
meeting his hero, and there'svery little that prepares you
for that moment.
Even though they're accessible,even though they're amazing,
they're still them, and, youknow, terrified.
How do you?
Because you do this every week,right, because you do this
(19:52):
every week, right, you know, andI don't know that I could,
because I would always be, I'dbe too nervous to do it how do
you do it?
What's your approach to do?
You have a different approachwhen you're interviewing these
legends versus, you know, justregular people like me, or is
there?
Is it kind of the same, like,like, how do you go about it?
Daniel (20:14):
Yeah, yeah.
So let me answer like all ofthose.
First of all, nervously.
That's the short answer.
I'm never not nervousinterviewing anybody, even a
fellow adult club player.
You think we're just peers.
I still get nervous about thatbecause I want to honor them.
(20:35):
I think being nervous showsthat you care.
No doubt I mean not insanelynervous, but like a little bit
of nervousness.
It just shows that you care,you want to do a good job.
It's their time, it's theirjourney, it's their story and I
want to do a very good job ofthat.
(20:55):
And I get nervous about, youknow, whether I will do a good
job, but yeah for sure you get alittle more nervous when it's
your, when it's your freakingheroes.
You know, yeah, yeah, no doubt.
As far as how I prepare forthat, you know well.
So let me, let me highlightwhat I think is like my, my
personal antidote to the thatnervousness and like, like you
said, like, to some degree, youcan't.
Like these are legends and theyhave volumes and volumes of
what they've accomplished.
So you can't, you can't, gothrough every game that they've
(21:17):
done.
You'll never, you'll never knoweverything that they've done.
So here's two things for me.
Like I try to remind myself todo two things in interview.
One is to be grateful for likeevery part of it.
I think when you're gratefulduring an interview, it's hard
to do a bad job.
Omar (21:36):
Ooh, that's a bar.
That's a good one, yeah.
Daniel (21:39):
Yeah, you know.
And then the second part ofthat is just to try to have the
conversation be joyful, like Idon't want to.
I don't want to communicatenervousness.
I want to communicate how happyI am to be talking with them
and I want to make it fun andinteresting and dynamic.
And so, like part of me issaying like let's have a good
time, let's have a funconversation and the second part
of me is saying, like I'm justgoing to, I'm going to express
(22:01):
my gratitude, I'm going to begrateful for this experience,
and I feel like if you do thosetwo things, like nerves will not
be the centerpiece of what'shappening.
So for me it's just it's joyand gratitude to try to counter
the nerves that are inevitable.
As far as, like the logisticalpreparation goes, I mean, I
always prepare.
You know that I'm alwaysputting in work to prepare for
(22:22):
my guests.
I'll be honest, like if it'ssomeone like jennifer shahadi or
bruce pandolfini or somethinglike that.
I do more in part because theyjust have a longer history they
got more stuff for you to learn.
Yeah, right right, like allthese videos, books, and so I
gotta like I gotta portion more,but also, like you know, if
someone is on that level andthey are honoring me by being a
guest, I want to give the bestthat I can.
(22:43):
So, yeah, I'll probably put in alittle more time for those
people, good amount of effort toprep all.
So that's a long answer to yourquestion no, no, no, that's
good.
Omar (22:54):
It's a what I hear coming out of.
That is some of the a themethat we've been talking about,
and that's really it's yourcharacter the fact that you have
a posture of humility becauseagain you've got a hit show, you
know.
But you don't behave assomebody who has a hit show.
You've you've had a who's whoof guests and, but you don't
(23:18):
conduct yourself as somebodywho's had a who's who of guests.
You conduct yourself as like Ifeel like you always have first
show energy every time I Ilisten, it's a yeah it's, it's
like oh wow, this is my firstshow, you know, let me make sure
I do this right.
You know, and you've had several, but they all feel like first
(23:39):
shows and I don't mean that interms of, like, the quality has
not evolved or what have youRight?
Daniel (23:44):
But you know what I couldn't say Speaking for energy
?
Omar (23:47):
It's a.
I'll put it to you this way,daniel the your show.
If I were to say the qualityhasn't evolved, I could actually
say that to you as a compliment, to say that it's always been
tip top, like it's a therewasn't much it needed to do to
like I listened to it and I go.
How is he going to top this?
(24:09):
I remember the first time Ilistened to your show.
I was getting ready for anevent and I was on a run.
I remember like your show washad replaced my music you know,
and so I'm running like fourmiles just to kind of clear my
head, and then right after thatI've got like a seven o'clock
game.
So this is like around fouro'clock and I'm out just on a
(24:31):
run.
I get back no-transcript.
(25:07):
Yeah, no, if it is, it'd bethis one, Cause I'm doing it you
know, but the but.
No, it's.
It's a.
No you have.
You have an excellent,excellent product, man.
It's a.
Let me ask you though yeah,what do you think?
I know why it's unique and whyit's different for me you know,
and the impact that it has forme and why it's different.
(25:28):
And again, this is somethingthat, prior to us coming on
camera, we were talking aboutthis and maybe I touched on here
.
I just can't remember the Ididn't want to do a show.
People would say to me you knowyou should do a show and I'm
like I can't do a show becausethere's already too much good
content out there.
But you've managed to find avery unique slice in the space,
(25:48):
and one of the things that yousay a lot that I like is there's
enough out here for all of usto eat, you know, and but how do
you, how do you make your showsimilar but different?
you know, it's a chess podcast,but it truly is an experience
Like it's the.
What it is.
(26:08):
I think it's that branding ison brand it is it is an
experience, and I say that, man,like you know that's, that's
not hyperbole, I mean that it'sit's, it's an experience
listening to your show it's.
It's that unique.
What do you think, though,gives it that?
Daniel (26:26):
Yeah, that's a that's a great question.
I should ask my audience too,Like I've never heard, I've
never like directly asked themthat question and asked that's a
great idea.
Those answers from like exactlylike what stands out to you.
Omar (26:39):
Oh, you know what, daniel?
Too I think you could, sinceyou've interviewed so many great
title players, like I'd love tohear, like what Jennifer
Shahadi would say relative toall the time she's been
interviewed.
Well, what was unique aboutthis with the chess experience
for me was X, y, z.
Like I would love to get someof that Like yeah, dude, that's
something that you get.
(27:00):
Those, you print that out, youframe it.
Daniel (27:02):
You know what I mean Exactly.
That's something you hang inyour house.
There's no way.
If I ask her that question, I'mnot posting and sharing her
response.
Omar (27:09):
Yeah.
Daniel (27:14):
Whatever it, her response yeah, whatever, that's
something that you that you do,that, but yeah, please, yeah, so
yeah, I guess the the reason Ibrought up that first is I'd be
curious to know what peoplepursue my audience perceives, as
what stands out is differentthan what I'm trying to do.
That would be, or maybe it'sthe same, I don't know.
One thing we already talkedabout, which is that this is the
adult club player perspective.
You know, and that's that's.
I almost don't think I've seenthat anywhere else in.
(27:36):
You know, club playerinterviewing, title players,
sometimes very big name titleplayers, that's rare, that's
rare and and I think that givesit a different flavor than most
shows, and I'm proud of that.
And you talked about, like youknow, like how I prepare for
interviews.
Well, let me restate that itwas something else that you said
that caught my attention.
(27:56):
You said that I always havelike a humility as I'm doing all
of those.
That's because I feel like I'ma representative for the people
that were a part of the MHScommunity.
The adult learns people tryingto get better, you know, while
managing jobs, families, allthis stuff, I feel like I'm just
a representative.
I'm not technically speaking,but I treat it as I'm going in
(28:20):
there for all of us to ask thequestions that we would ask.
So it's not really about me,it's just about me representing
our group like an ambassador, soto speak.
Love it and I think that's oneof the standout things about the
show is having one of usinterview these big name players
okay the other is that we'rethe improver group.
(28:43):
That's what drives us, is thisinterest to get better, to see
what we can accomplish forourselves, and so I try to
always have improvement help onthe show I shouldn't say always,
like there's a part of me thatjust wants to do fun episodes
too, but yeah, it's frequentlythere.
You know that they're,especially if I'm interviewing a
title player that we're goingto talk about.
(29:04):
You know some tips on howpeople can improve.
So there's there's there's anemphasis on learning and
improvement.
That isn't always there in allchess content and certainly not
to the club player level.
Like I said, you know maybeit's for beginners.
there's stuff for beginners,there's stuff for dance players,
but at our intermediate-ishlevel, you know.
(29:24):
So that's another second thing,and then the third thing that
I'm very proud of is that halfof my guests are women, and
again, Beautiful.
Jennifer Shahadi's influence isthat half of my guests are women
and, again, beautiful yeah,reading her book chess queens,
realizing, learning about thelack of representation that
women have in chess, thetreatment that they've
unfortunately had in chess, andjust trying to do my part to
(29:51):
improve the chess world justeven a tiny bit that way on the
representation level.
And the truth is I don't knowthat it makes the huge splash
that I would love for it to do.
I would love for it to say thatit's like a factor in turning
the chess world around andgiving women more representation
.
Right, I don't know that that'sthe case.
Omar (30:11):
I do it more out of principle than I was going to
ask you man, is it intentional?
Okay, so did you?
Or did you happen to just go?
Oh my gosh, half my, my guestswere.
Or did you say you know what?
No, I've had this many maleguests.
I'm not going to have this many, you know, female guests.
Daniel (30:33):
I even recorded my first episode, I knew that that was
going to be a goal.
I knew that I was going to gofor half of my guests being
women, and it's very intentional.
Sadly, it's a little harder todo that because there's less
women in chess, just numerically, it just is, it's a fact.
It's unfortunate, and by a lot.
It's not like it's 55, 45, it'slike 90, and so the pool of
(30:54):
potential women guests issmaller than male guests, just
because of the numbers issue,and so there is more effort
that's required to get 50 of myguests being women, exactly for
the problem that I'm trying tohelp alleviate yeah, think about
, yeah, wow, think about, like,yeah think about yourself.
like you're like in chess media,like think about all the
popular chess media centers thatlike publish on social media or
(31:16):
content whatever interviews.
Who do you see?
It's almost always men.
It's almost always men beingfeatured, and so I'm getting
less of like who's out there forwomen, you know, because, like
I don't see it as well as I wantto, so I have to, I have to dig
a little harder, work a littleharder to find them than I
should have to, frankly.
And so trying to do that,trying to give them that
(31:38):
representation on this show,it's something I'm very proud of
and I think that also makes mychess con different than
everything not just otherpodcasts, but YouTube streaming
where there's an interviewsetting or there's guests.
It's rare that half are women.
There's an interview setting orthere's guests.
It's rare that half are women.
It's, in fact, I think onlylike jennifer's ladies night
like, yeah, did something likethat.
Omar (31:58):
So you know, we're all women, but do you find in terms
of the feedback that you'vegotten about that?
One, have you gotten anyfeedback about it?
And two, have you again?
It's and it's not a measurementin terms of just that you did.
It is commendable.
Let me just give you yourflowers on that immediately.
Thank you, because it goes backto what we talked about as far
(32:23):
as leaving the game better thanyou found it going to benefit
people who have been treated sopoorly by the game, which is
just sad and unfortunate.
The fact that you are doing thisto draw attention to it, and
draw positive attention to itand say, hey, I'm going to be
from show zero, very intentionalabout balancing this out in
(32:48):
hopes of drawing more women tothe game, and that's one
fantastic.
But two, have you received anyfeedback from anyone that says,
hey, you know, this made me moreinterested in playing or this
gave me more courage to be ableto go in?
Because I think about all justthe women that you and I know,
who play the game, that we bothknow as friends of ours or
(33:11):
people that we, I sometimesthink like how in the world do
the?
You know, why do they keepgoing?
You know, just off of thestories.
I've talked with them aboutpersonally, sort of offline, and
I hear the different things,stuff like I had to change my
profile icon, you know, onchesscom, because I kept getting
(33:32):
marriage proposals or differentthings.
You know, just that kind ofstuff.
Have you found that your showand your format and the way that
you've done it has?
Have you gotten any feedbackthat like, hey, this is working.
Or is it one of those thingsthat you're you're hoping to
still receive?
Or are you good if you neverhear it so long as you're you're
you're doing?
Daniel (33:52):
it.
Yeah, like all of those things.
So I do get.
I have gotten feedback,interestingly enough, from men,
men with daughters okay, menwith daughters saying that they
listen to my show with theirdaughter, particularly the ones
that have no guests yeah, andthat they're very happy that
there's a show out there that isfeaturing women.
(34:13):
So that way they you know, theysee that representation.
This I can do it too, or I wantyou know, so they can have more
role models to find and connectwith.
So that has happened and youknow, honestly, like the first
message that I got, like thatthat's enough to always keep
doing it to me yeah yeah, youknow, if you if it's just one
person that you impact on thisworth it.
(34:35):
Worth it.
As far as my own audiencedemographics you'd be.
It's like it's surprising to meit is 90% plus male, and so
okay.
But I also feel like this isthe problem that we have.
I don't expect my show tochange the number of women in
chess, and so if you go into itwith only if you go into
(34:57):
creating a chess podcast wherechess has 10% women and 90% men,
you know like it's not going tochange that reality.
Just because I feature halfwomen.
I guess my hope was that maybesome more women would be
attracted to the show and listento it Because there's so many
female guests.
Maybe that has happened to adegree, but but I haven't seen
that.
But here.
But here's the bottom line.
I'm doing it on principle.
(35:17):
If it changes anything, evenjust one or two people, that's
music to my ears and totallyworth it.
But if it never goes beyond oneor two people, that's okay,
because I just feel like it'sthe right thing to do.
Omar (35:31):
Just to dovetail over that , I thought of Caitlin Clark and
what she's done for the WNBA.
Okay, what do you think itwould take to have that impact
on the chess world?
You know, is it what if we had?
Like I mean, cause, here's thething.
This is why I'm like I'm, I'mwondering.
The the biggest thing to happento chess in the last 10 years
(35:54):
was the Queen's Gambit.
When you think about that interms of like Beth Harmon's not
even real, but we've had BethHarmon's that- were real.
We've talked about a couple ofthem already just on, you know,
in this interview, and you wouldthink that having a show like
that, like it boggles my mindthat a show that had a female
(36:18):
chess superhero, for all intentsand purposes, would draw more
men to the game than women tothe game, like it would be now.
again, I don't know if that's if, how that nets out, you got 62
some odd million people thatwatch that show.
But I'm wondering what theoverall impact of that has been
with women on the game.
But as you're telling me, I'mI'm thinking that 90, 10 sounds
(36:41):
about right.
So I'm I'm wondering, withouthaving any data in front of me
and just your opinion, whatcause I feel like Beth Harmon
was Caitlin Clark, and we've hadreal ones.
We've had people that have hadthat.
We've had women that havebroken, you know, have broken
the barrier.
What else do you think it wouldtake to draw more women to the
game?
That's a great question.
Daniel (37:04):
I mean, I feel like Jennifer does a great job of
answering that question in thebook, so my answers are her
answers because she knows betterthan me, no doubt.
And I've had a couple of gueststalk about this.
Comfortable female guests talkabout this.
I mean, I think a lot of itgoes to a welcoming culture for
women, like when they go to achess club or when they connect
(37:25):
with people online in chess,that it needs to not be sexist
or harassing.
If it is, you just stop it deadin its tracks.
Right, like who would ever wantto stay in an experience, like
you said that, right like you're, you're surprised that they
stay in it in spite of that andyou know, to their credit,
they're willing to to you knowyeah, endure that, try to endure
(37:48):
that, try to set it aside asmuch as possible because they're
, because they want to do whatthey love, and god bless them
for that.
But of of course, there's manymore that just say I'm not
putting up with this.
Forget it, you know.
Omar (37:59):
Yeah.
Daniel (38:00):
And I think I don't know how you solve that, but I feel
like that is critical.
I mean, you're saying, like,how do we change the culture,
not just even in America, butprobably worldwide?
Like that's a tough thing tofigure out.
I don't have an answer to how,but I do know that that has to
be something that's addressedbecause, like, if you don't have
this warm welcoming space, howdo you keep people in the game?
Omar (38:23):
Agreed.
Daniel (38:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Omar (38:24):
That's a yeah, Go ahead.
I'm sorry, man.
Daniel (38:26):
Yeah, no, I was just gonna say I mean the other out
there, it needs to be a.
You know, I I often refer tochess as a sport, just because
it's yeah, it's, 100 is a sport.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, I mean,it is a game, but it's more than
a game.
Omar (38:41):
The way we normally talk about that word game, I just
like I've never been angrierabout a game that, right then, I
have about.
You know, if I lose abasketball game, I don't, I
don't dwell on it for years,right exactly, exactly, yeah, I
just want to elevate it abovemonopoly.
Daniel (39:00):
You know that's right.
Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I meanwhat was I gonna say?
Yeah, when you have a sportthat you know you can, you can
choose, like, who you want toshow, that's in it and you're
not showing the women that aredoing what they're doing.
Like that's a problem too.
I do think that all females,whether they're girls or women,
are looking at that, and youknow that's part of being
welcoming to me, you know, issaying like you are part of this
(39:24):
, you know.
So I think representation, Ithink treatment of women and
girls in chess communities iscritical.
Omar (39:30):
Whether it's online or in person doesn't matter both, and
beyond that, I don't't know, Ifeel like if you did those two
things, you would take care of alot I got one thought on that
pain you have a tournament, have, have something exclusive for
them, invite top players, invitesome, you know, you know I
(39:51):
don't know where you you look atthat maybe just the rankings
have have a cutoff and you couldhave a sponsored event with
some real money.
And I guarantee you if somebodydid that, if they were to look
at that and say, okay, we'regoing to have a sponsored event
exclusively for women andthere's large dollars attached
(40:12):
to this, I guarantee you wouldmake a splash.
It would get people's attentionand people would say, oh wow,
wait a minute, that's somethingthat, like I can.
I can build a career off ofthat.
This is the first time we'vedone this.
It's somebody just has to like.
If I had the money, I'd do it.
You know somebody just has towant to, somebody has to to care
(40:33):
about that.
And if you do that, you knowmoney talks first and then
you're, you know somebody justhas to want to, somebody has to
to care.
You know about that and if youdo that.
You know money talks first andthen you're you know money, will
the money you invest insomething will get people to
then see your character.
But if you just lead withcharacter and this is
unfortunate it's never going tobe enough.
You know it's a you have tohave.
Like, if I walk up to somebodywho's starving and I want to
(40:59):
have a conversation with them, Ibetter feed them first right
like let me give them somethingto eat hey, burr, you want a
sandwich?
okay, now I can talk to you.
Now you'll see, you've seen my.
I fed you.
Now you, you'll listen towhatever it is that I'm talking
to you about, and I think, if wewere to do that, it's.
There's no better way to beginthe conversation with honoring
women and wanting to draw themto the game than to pay them,
(41:20):
and to pay them is equal to, orif not more than, the men you
know it's it's to just make thestatement that would get
everybody's attention, in myopinion, yeah.
Daniel (41:32):
Yeah, I agree.
Omar (41:33):
Just the thought you know, the you know, and if I'm, if
I've, and if I'm ever in aposition to do it, I will do it
because I want to see that it'ssomething I'm very passionate
about and I know you are as well.
Yeah, all right, man, let meask you this when do you see the
show going from here?
You've kind of given yourapproach to how you go about it.
(41:55):
What makes it unique, some ofthe things that are inspiring to
you, but you've already got anamazing show.
What are the goals that youhave for long-term?
What, like, give me, like your,what do you want to have
accomplished in like the next 18, you know, next 24, you know's
your five-year plan relative tothe show?
(42:17):
Like, what are you looking todo and looking to accomplish?
Daniel (42:20):
Yeah, well, this might sound like I'm patting myself on
the back a little bit, but itwill be just like.
Omar (42:24):
No man again do that, you're allowed.
Daniel (42:28):
Echoing what you said, like I do think a quality show
at this point, and there's therehas been things along the way
too that I've done to to improveit, and so I think it's a it's.
You know it's a solid showright now, yeah, but what I
haven't spent much time on isgrowing it and it's it's.
You know it's got good numbersalready, but nowhere near what I
(42:51):
what I'd love for it to be.
So that's kind of like the twohalves to something like this
right, Like it's like reach whoare you like?
How many people are youreaching?
And then also like the qualityof the show.
I think for right now thequality is pretty solid.
I'll always tweak here andthere to do what I can, but I
think the main energy goingforward over the next year or
two is going to be in expandingmy reach, because you know, when
(43:16):
you believe you're doingsomething good, you want as many
people as possible to be ableto listen to it, watch it,
whatever the case may be.
So growth is.
Number is probably my numberone goal right now, and I feel
like my health is finallyfinally in a place where I can
do that.
Yeah, and I mean it's like alittle bit of a teaser here for
what's to come.
I will be creating a youtubechannel for this podcast.
(43:37):
We're going to be doing videorecordings now and, at a bare
minimum to start, there will bemultiple two to five minute
clips of those episodes onyoutube love it tbd on full
length video episodes, that's.
That's a whole big thing to do,but at the very least soon you
will be able to see a goodnumber of clips from each
episode.
Love it.
(43:57):
That'll help expand it topeople who, you know, don't
necessarily only listen to ashow like this.
Plus, I think it's excitingbecause it's going to open up
some possibilities.
I've never been able to talkwith anybody and have a
chessboard while we talk youknow a digital chessboard while
we talk, yeah.
And so I mean it basically opensup the possibility to do all
(44:18):
types of content that areavailable to do.
That you see on chess YouTubechannels.
So I may not just be limitingit to creating the video
versions of the show butactually expand to different
things.
Maybe we do some coachinglessons, maybe some you know irl
games that we post up there.
We'll see.
You know, sky's the limit oncewe have a youtube channel, in
(44:40):
terms of what else you can do.
Omar (44:40):
Will you do any sparring?
Oh interesting I would love tosee you play some of your guests
just for the experience, justjust to do it again there's.
You're not going to win likebut you should, but you should
absolutely play them like justto say you did like, how, like,
how long can I survive?
Daniel (45:00):
end of the conversation blitz game.
Omar (45:01):
Basically, yes, I would love to see like you play jen
shahadi in a three plus zero andjust see if how long it takes
her see if I can make it to move20.
Daniel (45:13):
Yeah, see if you can make the move 20 that, that,
that, like I'd love to see that.
Omar (45:17):
But go ahead, man, I interrupt you.
Daniel (45:18):
I'm sorry no, no, that's , that's great, yeah, so.
So there will be new thingslike that too.
You know types of content thatwill.
That will be part of the show.
That can be done.
But, to start, there will be,you know, a video component to
the show coming soon, which I'mvery excited about.
I've always wanted to do it,you know, and and now it's like
it's finally, finally, the timehas come and it'll be.
We'll be releasing that, sothat'll be a big part of the
(45:39):
growth.
But, yeah, I'll be honest andsure, like I want to.
In 2025, I want to double,triple the size of the show in
terms of audience reach and thenbeyond even that in years to
come.
So that's basically the, thenumber one goal and everything
that I do probably, you know,like everything I do, that'll be
new.
Yeah, we'll, we'll serve thatwill be to to expand more reach,
reach, more people.
Like I said, there's there'senough there for everybody you
(46:00):
know, there's people who wantall types of chess content for a
certain type, and I just knowthere's lots of people out there
who just don't need to knowabout the show yet.
Omar (46:08):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's that.
It's funny.
You got me thinking about howMagnus, as we're recording this,
was on Joe Rogan recently andyou know, like what a get that
(46:30):
would be if he could come do thechess experience, Is he?
I'm going to venture a guessthat Magnus would be a dream
guest, but do you have, is therea list of people that you
haven't talked to yet that youwould love to kind of bring on?
Do you have any dream guests?
You know now that you'rethinking about, like and I don't
mean it just in the sense ofwho could achieve the goal of
you expanding the reach of yourshow, of your show, right, but
(46:56):
just people that you know.
I'm thinking, well, let's lookat it from both perspectives.
Who would you love to get, whocould do that, and who would you
love to get that would be aguest?
Who, somebody that you wouldjust want to have dinner with?
Like, if the cameras weren't on, if you weren't recording, if
you were just out having a mealwith this individual, like, who
would those two sets of guestsbe?
Daniel (47:19):
Okay, yeah.
So as far as the dream guestsgo, this goes to what I'm proud
of with the show, which is thatI, like the top 50 players in
the world.
I am so impressed by what theydo.
I love what they'veaccomplished and I would love to
talk about theiraccomplishments on the show.
It's truly inspiring what theydo, but I believe in a chess
(47:39):
world that focuses on them andthe other people who are the
engines of the chess world andthe chess community.
So when I think of my ideal show, it runs the gamut.
I wouldn't want a show thatjust featured top 50 players and
nothing else.
There's probably many podcasthosts who would, chess podcast
hosts who would I don't know orpotential chess podcast hosts
who would, and that's awesome.
(48:00):
But I feel like my show istrying to be a voice for all the
people who make this chessworld go even beyond the top
players yes, the top players,but plus, and so my dream guests
are only those.
They're just people who I thinkare doing a great job, and I
(48:21):
love what they're doing.
So I'll give you one example.
Omar (48:23):
One is grandmaster robert hess has a beast he's yeah, he's
he might be the best ever.
Do it, man yeah his commentaryis extraordinary.
Daniel (48:33):
I like that he treats it seriously.
I mean, I'm also like havingfun being humorous, but he just
seems to have such a reverencefor the game.
Omar (48:41):
And he knows his stuff.
I mean, obviously he's a GM but, like the dude is nice on
commentary, like he breaks itdown in such a way Like he's
outstanding Right.
He's an amazing GM.
Yeah.
Daniel (48:53):
You know of an above and beyond GM, but somehow makes me
understand, like.
I can understand everythinghe's saying, that's crazy.
I don't know how he does that,but I think he's absolutely one
of the top tier commentators andI would love to have him on the
show.
Yeah, I mean, that's what I'msaying, like people like him.
Okay, so he's not a top 20player, but he is helping the
community so much by makingthese top events accessible to
(49:15):
people like us.
I really dig that.
Another one is Pia Cramlin,grandmaster Pia Cramlin.
I've tried, but I also knowthat in general she's just not
interested in being like onshows or interviewed, like with
mine or just in general.
So so I you know, I respectthat.
Omar (49:31):
That said, it doesn't change the fact that she would
be yeah, right, yeah, youprobably get it on a cramling
you probably get her,potentially, potentially one day
.
Daniel (49:41):
Potentially, yeah, you get her you might get mom, maybe
, maybe yeah, but yeah, likewith pia, I just love what she's
doing, how amazing she'sperforming, well beyond the age
people would expect you to stillperform amazing, like the fact
that she's doing this event, ifI'm not mistaken right, like
she's performing Well beyond theage people would expect you to
still perform.
Omar (49:58):
Amazingly Like the fact that she's doing this.
She's still playing events.
If I'm not mistaken right,she's still active In her 50s.
Daniel (50:03):
Yeah, she is crushing it in her 50s and I just find that
super inspiring.
Plus, she's one of the mostaccomplished women players in
the history of the world, sothat's pretty cool.
Women's world champion that'spretty cool.
Women's world champion andgrandmaster, alexandra Kostinik.
I don't know if I'm pronouncingher last name exactly right.
My Russian is not very good,but you know who I'm talking
about.
Oh yeah, one of the legends ofchess, and just her career is
(50:25):
incredible and she, too, stillperforming at a very high level,
and so, yeah, she would be adream guest for me.
Actually, she's talking aboutnervous.
I've gotten, I've been a littletoo nervous, like I haven't
tried to invite her yet.
Omar (50:38):
I've been nervous about it , shoot your shot man, you know,
shoot your shot I know, I knowshe's just so amazing.
Daniel (50:46):
And then someone who has been I don't know if he
currently, but at least has beenin the top 50.
Sam Shanklin Bro, get Sam.
Omar (50:55):
Get Sam.
Sam is such a good dude.
I met him at he was signing hisbook.
He had a new book come out andI was at the event.
I was playing the event that hewas signing.
The dude sat in the Skittlesroom with us and he's just
hanging out in the Skittles room.
There's a bunch of us like he'sjust here's this GM, and I kind
of look like he's just here'sthis gm, and I kind of look over
(51:17):
.
And I just finished playing agame that I had lost and I look
over.
I said, hey, sam, would youmind going over the game with me
?
He's like, yeah, so he slidesover.
He slid the board over.
We set it up and I startwalking him through what I'm
doing and I got an analysis of agame that I just played from
(51:38):
Sam Shanklin.
So I say that to say man, likeit's you 100% should reach out
to him because I think he'd doit.
If the dude will analyze myterrible chess at an event, he
will 100% do the chessexperience.
I think it's just you, you know, keep pressing for that because
sam, like he's a really goodguy, he's really nice guy yeah,
(52:01):
what appeals to me about him isthat this is like a certain
underdog quality to him.
Daniel (52:06):
It's, it's interesting like he's a top 50 world but you
know he's a super gm yes,freaking super gm but has like
this underdog quality because hehe learned a little bit later,
he had to work a little harderthan a lot of the other super
jams.
Because of that, I think to, toget to where he is and I just I
dig that.
I don't know, I can't help it.
I'm a lifelong fan of underdogsand there's a little bit of
(52:29):
that quality to him, even thoughat the same time you know he's
one of the best to ever play thegame.
Basically, I mean 99 betterthan 99.9 percent that'll ever
play.
And so that mix of like supergm with underdog is just that
really is cool yeah, and that's.
Omar (52:43):
It's like, wow, how do you , how do you achieve that?
Yeah, and then, on top of that,you're you're an underdog who
is a super gm that will hang outin the skittles room and
analyze a game of just a randomdude that you don't know from a
hole in the ground.
Daniel (52:59):
Right yeah.
Omar (53:00):
He's that guy.
Yeah, he's accessible, right.
Took pictures with everybody,you know.
Just, he played a simul as well.
I missed my opportunity.
I was too chicken to play him,you know, in the simul because I
was mainly concerned that I'mlike I don't want to burn out on
this, and then I've got a gameright after this.
But I should have just skippedthe game and played him in the
(53:21):
simul to be, to be quite honest.
Daniel (53:24):
That's what I should have done.
Omar (53:24):
Just taking the L on that and had the experience of doing
it just to be able to say Iplayed him.
But yeah, 100%, man, like reachback out to him, like him.
I think he'd do it, I really doyeah, yeah.
Daniel (53:43):
so those are like four that I think are amongst the top
of my dream list.
Thanks for listening.
This has been a production ofmy Business, adult Chess Academy
, and that has a website withthe same name, if you want to
look for it.
And that has a website with thesame name, if you want to look
for it.
You can also find me being waytoo active on Twitter by
searching my username, lona,underscore chess.
See you next week.
Hey, welcome to the chess experience On this show.
It's all about helping adultimprovers.
I want to make learning chesseasier for you to navigate, and
I also want you to have a morefun experience along the way.
I'm your host, Daniel Lona, afellow chess amateur.
Let's get to it.
(00:25):
This show is sponsored bychesscom, the world's largest
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(01:12):
Welcome to this week's show.
This time we're doing things alittle differently because the
show is celebrating its threeyear anniversary.
It's pretty amazing to me thatI've reached this milestone, and
I hope you've had a reallyenjoyable time hearing the wide
variety of guests that haveappeared on this show.
In fact, there's been over 100guests so far and I can easily
say that doing this podcast hasbeen one of the greatest
(01:33):
experiences and honors of mylife.
So, to celebrate its thirdanniversary, I thought I'd be
the one in the guest chair forthis episode, where I'll be
interviewed about the showitself, and in the role of the
host is fellow adult club playerand previous guest on the show,
Omar Mills.
In our chat I talk about why Icreated the show, what makes it
(01:55):
different than other chesscontent, who are some of my
favorite guests, goals that Ihave for the show and four dream
guests that I'd like to have.
One other thing about myconversation with Omar we're
good friends, so we end uptalking a lot, and our
conversation went pretty long.
Or I just talk too much.
Either way, I'm splitting ourtalk over two episodes.
(02:16):
The first half will be thisweek and the second half will be
next week.
Why not celebrate for a fulltwo weeks, right?
The last thing I'd like tomention before sharing my chat
with Omar is that I'd love tohear your positive experiences
with the show.
What do you like about it?
What do you think makes itunique?
Was there a particular episodeor guest that affected you
(02:39):
positively.
It could be because thatepisode helped your chess a lot,
or it could be because thatepisode helped your chess a lot,
or it could be something deeperand even a little more
emotional than that.
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Please share them with me and Imay even read it in the intro
to next week's episode.
There's a few ways you canreach me to share your thoughts.
One I have a link to thecontact form on my website in
(03:01):
the show notes.
Or you can dm me, Twitter orInstagram.
I'll have links to my accountsfor both of those in the show
notes.
Or, if you're listening to thisepisode on Spotify, you can
just simply comment directly onthis episode.
However you choose to contactme, I'd love to get a message
from you about something you'veenjoyed about this podcast and
(03:22):
there's a good chance I'll shareit with my community.
All right, here's Omar Millsinterviewing me about three
years of running this podcast.
Omar (03:35):
The Chess Experience.
I hope you enjoy it.
Well, Daniel, the thing Iwanted to remind you of is that
years and years and years ago, Isaid I wanted your soul and
your show.
So I just want you to know I'mhalfway there.
You are halfway there today.
Daniel (03:46):
Yes, exactly, I was going to mention that I'm like
at least two or three occasionsyou've mentioned you want to
take my show?
Omar (03:54):
Yeah, I was like I want this.
I can't get your soul.
I still can't beat you, butI'll take this.
Daniel (03:58):
I will take this.
I can go partway, I can give itto you for a week.
You have the show for a week.
This week, the show is yours.
Sir, Repeat what you said to mebefore we started, when I said
the reins of the show are inyour hands now.
I said that's dangerous.
I said that's very dangerous.
Omar (04:13):
I think at first I was like wow, I'm humbled, I'm
honored, but also that's verydangerous to something that I
said that I wanted.
Jokingly on x formally twitter,right and funny that that has
that.
That has come to come to be inin in a small piece.
(04:34):
I still don't I still haven'tgotten you yet on the on the
board.
I don't know that I ever willyou're, you're, you're too good
man you're way too good, yourbest chance right now.
Daniel (04:44):
So if you can convince me to play right now because I'm
just like in maintenance mode,at best right now we can talk
about that, listen, manmaintenance mode for you is
still dangerous.
Omar (04:54):
Okay, so do you want to just kind of dive in?
Man, let's dive in.
All right, whatever you got forme, why did you make this show?
What was the?
You know the?
In fact, let me ask you to thisway, why did you make the show?
But also, I want to commend youfor the courage of doing it,
(05:16):
because there's a ton of chesscontent.
That's our cause.
People would come to me and theysay you, omar, you should start
a show.
And I said I'm a bunch betterguest than I am host, you know,
and my answer would always bewell, there's, you know, there's
so many good shows that arealready out there, you know, and
I don't know that I can doanything that's going to.
Yeah, I can't compete, you know, with those, those shows, or
(05:40):
doing it like the best I canmatch, but you managed to carve
out a space that's very uniqueto you and it compliments, and
so I want to commend you forthat and ask was that what your
intent always was?
You know, had you alwaysthought of it that way or did
that just evolve as the showevolved?
Daniel (06:02):
Yeah, that's a good question.
So I think there's two parts tothat.
One is like why did I even wantto create a podcast chess
content at all?
And then second, like whatwithin it was I trying to do?
So?
The why I wanted to create apodcast at all was because I was
playing chess, playing andstudying chess three hours a day
, absolutely loving it, and feltlike that wasn't enough for me.
(06:24):
So I think a lot of peoplemight relate to that right Like
just three hours that's all Iget today.
But basically I started to get asense that, you know, competing
professionally was notsomething I was probably going
to be doing, and so if I wasn'tgoing to be competing in chess,
how could I make chess somethingthat was my whole life?
(06:44):
And, you know, creating chesscontent was one way towards that
.
I had actually was coming offof a podcast before then that I
had created very short lived,but it was for my copywriting
business.
It was a marketing and sales so.
But I had already stopped thatpodcast by the time I was
getting into chess.
But because it was somewhatrecent, I had felt like you know
(07:06):
, sort of podcast was on thebrain still and I had gone
through the initial steps ofcreating one.
So it didn't feel intimidatingto me Like, and how would I even
create a podcast?
I knew the steps, I had acourse, so it was very doable.
And I just felt, like you know,like, podcasts are very popular
, so it was something that Iknew would be a format that
could work.
And then the second part of itis then like well, what kind of
(07:28):
podcast are you going to create?
Like, what's the point of doingthis?
Well, I felt like, and this isprobably like bias, self-serving
, selfish, I don't know, butlike I felt like we weren't
represented enough.
We, meaning adult improvements,adult club players yeah,
weren't fully represented enoughin the chess content scene,
it's like almost exclusivelytitle players who are doing this
(07:49):
, and that's great.
I want them to be out there,but I also wanted our
perspective to be out there.
And content made for us that wasaccessible to us.
Not that you had something.
You didn't have to be advancedin chess, you could be beginner
or intermediate and you couldappreciate the content.
You could dive into thatcontent.
So I wanted something thatspoke to our level and I felt
(08:13):
like that was something that Icould do.
Of course, I joke and say thatlike like, sort of like, the
nature of my show is you'veyou've never heard a worst
player interview such talentedchess players.
You've never heard a worseplayer interview such talented
chess players Like.
That always tickled me as Iwent along, like, oh, this is
the first time.
You've always, like, a lot ofmy guests have been interviewed
(08:35):
before, right, but they've neverbeen interviewed by a player as
weak as me.
And the questions that I wouldhave and there's something
comical about that, but there'ssomething interesting about that
too that dynamic of, hey, Iknow a little bit of chess
compared to you.
Let's see how that conversationwould go Someone who's really
advanced talking to someone who,from their perspective, is
pretty basic at chess, and Ithought that that just wasn't
(08:56):
out there, but I thought itwould be a unique and
interesting format, that's.
Omar (09:03):
I mean, you gave me a lot of thoughts around that that's.
That's very interesting one.
I love how you put it that.
Here's something that made methink of, and I got this from
one of my coaches the butcheryou know, and he was talking
about.
I want to say that this mighthave been the world championship
when magnus was playing nepo.
It might have been the olympiad, it's somewhere around that
(09:25):
time.
We were having having atraining session and he was like
he coaches the, like hiscountry's team, like he's like
the national coach, you know,for them, and so he's very
interested in it.
And one of the things that youknow he was asking me like while
we were training.
He was like hey, are you goingto watch this?
(09:45):
And I'm like yeah, of courseI'm going to watch it.
And he's like man, we're alljunkies for this, aren't we?
And I find that that's trueregardless of level.
If chess is on or available,pogchamps, I think, is a great
example of I will watch the heckout of that if given the
opportunity great example of Iwill wash the heck out of that.
(10:06):
You know if, given theopportunity, I think too, the
explosion of chess and thenumber of people rediscovering
it or discovering it for thefirst time has grown
exponentially, and so you'veprobably seen this in your
numbers, in terms of how peoplehave come, have found your show
and have been listening to it.
So I believe that it'srefreshing for these top players
(10:33):
to answer questions in thatsense, and I think, give
yourself more credit, man,you're not a bad player, uh,
you're.
You're an outstanding player.
You're.
In fact, if you look at yourrating compared to you know
people in the world, you'rebetter than most of the world,
you know.
So no one's going to be on thelevel of these.
(10:55):
You know the people that you're, you're interviewing, they're,
they're unique.
Just any title, quite frankly,is herculean you know just to
reach.
You know so, and I certainlyhave an appreciation for that
more now than I did four yearsago when I was getting started,
you know.
But I think that that'ssomething that you know there's.
There's a draw for that,there's a uniqueness to that,
(11:18):
and you've created that space tothat end.
Man, are there any episodes,because you've done a bunch now
are there any?
That have stood out more thanothers, and it's okay if you
don't say mine it's okay.
Daniel (11:33):
You mean after yours, besides yours.
Omar (11:35):
Besides mine, yeah, are there any that stand?
Daniel (11:39):
out are objectively, regardless of my, of course.
I loved our conversation.
No doubt but so did my audience.
You have one of my topdownloaded episodes of my entire
show.
Omar (11:52):
Wow, that's humbling, yeah , very humbling, so yeah, people
loved hearing from you.
It's the rapport man that wehave.
We've had this for a long time.
Daniel (12:00):
Yeah.
Omar (12:00):
We've been doing this for a minute.
Agreed, but go ahead.
Daniel (12:09):
I long time.
Yeah, we've been doing this fora minute.
Yeah, go ahead, I'm sorry, no,no, yeah, that's all right, I
mean yeah, I mean there's acouple of ways that I could
probably look at that like whatare the standout ones?
I'm gonna go with thinking ofit as like most meaningful for
me.
So you know, like this isn'tlike about what was best or what
performed well, it's just likefor me personally as a host.
There were two people.
One was jenn Shahadi.
And in particular, the firstepisode that we had together.
I love the second one that wedid, you know, but there's just
(12:32):
something about my first timetalking with her, and she she
actually was interested to talkto me too, like she wanted to
know what I was like because wehad a Twitter connection,
twitter relationship, yeah, butshe wanted to know what I was
like in person, and, of course,I was just like in awe of the
chance to get to speak to her,and let me explain why she was
meaningful to me.
She's one of, like my biggestinspirations in chess, yeah,
(12:54):
yeah, here's why.
Not only is she superaccomplished, which is worth
admiring unto itself.
Facts, I mean just in terms ofnumbers, there's a lot of very
accomplished chess players.
What stands out about her,though, for me, is that, in
addition to that, she's usingchess as a force for good.
She's trying to make the gamemore welcoming to everybody, in
(13:19):
particular, for women and girls,and she's trying to make it a
place that she's trying to, youknow, make it a place that she's
trying to make chess a placethat treats them well, welcomes
them, makes it a place that theywant to stay and be in.
That's like her life missionnow with chess is to make it a
better place for people.
And I was like, wow, that'sincredible.
(13:39):
You got into this sport slashgame, you freaking conquered it
Two-time USs women's championand now you're just using it to
make the world a better place,like if I felt like I could say
that about my chess journey, Iwould to die happy, so to speak.
Like that that's that's peak tome and that's why talking to
her was so meaningful, because Iknew that going into it, that's
(14:00):
why I loved her so much and whyI wanted her on the show.
And so the chance to talk tosomebody like that, who's so
accomplished and has done somuch good for the game, that was
really meaningful to me.
Omar (14:10):
But I'll mention my second person in a moment, just in
case you're making to say I justwant to just want to react, man
, just just to echo everythingyou know that you've said.
I've never had an opportunityto really talk with her real
time, but we have exchangedmessages on Twitter, slash X and
Jennifer.
I reached out to her when wewere doing the t-shirt sales,
(14:37):
when I had the branded shirtsand we were giving proceeds to
US Chess Women, and she was theperson I spoke to to kind of say
hey, how does this work?
And was just very, very kind.
You know, could have easilyjust blown me off.
Never did that, was always justaccessible and did not have to
(15:00):
be, I'd say, the biggest thing,I'd say the humility that she
has given her accomplishmentsand to still be accessible.
I know enough, just on her.
Very rarely do.
You see?
There's a saying I have talentwill take you where character
won't keep you, and I can't saythat about Jennifer Shahadi.
(15:20):
Her character shines evenbrighter than her skills and she
could easily feel herself onthat and she doesn't, you know,
uh, and when you leave the gamebetter than you found it,
because the game wasn't alwayskind to her, but for her to take
that and fuel it and turn itinto a positive, it just, it
(15:41):
just speaks.
So, no, that that is absolutelyI get why that one stood out to
you.
It's just, yeah, it's honored,just to meet her.
Daniel (15:49):
You know, much less get to interview her twice like
that's, that's amazing man yeah,it really is, and I think you
know what you talked about there, omar with her like that's.
One of the reasons I love hertoo is that she, she, she
doesn't act like she is a chesscelebrity, but she doesn't act
like one.
She acts like one of us.
She acts like she never actslike she's too important to talk
(16:10):
to anybody who's connected tothis game, who wants to reach
out to her.
Omar (16:14):
She's so accessible and.
Daniel (16:16):
I mean that's another reason why she's a role model.
It's just like I don't have ahundredth of her influence or
fame or whatever, but people areaware of me and whenever they
want to connect with me I try toremember that.
You know, just like, beaccessible.
It was like I think.
I think it's just a greatlesson in life.
It's just, you know, never betoo big for anybody, no matter
what you've accomplished.
You know it's a beautiful thingto see with him, yeah.
(16:37):
Which is yeah, yeah, that'sfunny.
It's like I'm so like I need toask you a question now.
So the second one is brucepandolfini, actual master, bruce
pandolfini yeah, man yeah.
So this goes back to my chessorigin story.
One of the big things that gotme super excited about chess was
(17:00):
seeing the movie searching forbobby fisher in the 90s and you
know, real life person.
He's portrayed as a characterin that movie.
I'm sure more than half myaudience has seen it, but in
case they haven't yet, he's acharacter in that movie.
And after I saw that movie Igot super excited about chess
and started buying up a bunch ofchess books.
Well, whose books were they?
(17:21):
Bruce Pandolfini's.
So I kind of consider him myfirst chess coach because of
that, because I first reallylearned the game beyond the
rules.
I first learned the game fromhim.
So then to just have him on mypodcast was surreal and amazing.
And I mean this guy's, like youknow he's also behind the
scenes on all everything chessin movies and shows, right Like
(17:41):
he's the consultant.
Yeah, you know, he was aconsultant for Queen's Gambit.
He was you know, like he was.
Of course the movie has, youknow, a character of him in
Searching for Bobby Fishel, buthe was a consultant for that and
all these other things.
Wherever Chess is in a movie,like he consulted on that and so
like he just has like all andjust having him on the show was
(18:01):
absolutely surreal, one of themost meaningful things to me.
So I would say I would saythose two, you know, for like
different kinds of reasons, butlike those, those were very
impactful episodes for me.
Omar (18:10):
So let me ask you this, so I'm going to dovetail that
because again, you're, you're,you're speaking to chess,
royalty and legends, you knowit's a that.
That's.
How do you prepare forsomething like that?
(18:33):
I know that you're a veryregimented guy, but nothing
really can prepare you to have aconversation with your hero in
that blue.
Susan pogar is like hey, I'm intown and I'm over at epcot,
(18:56):
come, come meet me.
You know, just out the blue andone.
I'm shocked that like I'mgetting a text message from
susan pogar.
Daniel (19:04):
Right that alone is just like you know stunned so
Omar (19:08):
I go over there and in.
In going over there, there wasa part of me that was like well,
I got to grab one of her books,I got to get her to sign
something, I got to do this.
I got to do that.
Terrified, I'm nervous, eventhough Ian and I had already
talked to her for our stream.
So it's not like there was nocontext, we'd met, we'd spoken.
(19:31):
But now I'm meeting you inperson and I'm, you know, a kid
meeting his hero, and there'svery little that prepares you
for that moment.
Even though they're accessible,even though they're amazing,
they're still them, and, youknow, terrified.
How do you?
Because you do this every week,right, because you do this
(19:52):
every week, right, you know, andI don't know that I could,
because I would always be, I'dbe too nervous to do it how do
you do it?
What's your approach to do?
You have a different approachwhen you're interviewing these
legends versus, you know, justregular people like me, or is
there?
Is it kind of the same, like,like, how do you go about it?
Daniel (20:14):
Yeah, yeah.
So let me answer like all ofthose.
First of all, nervously.
That's the short answer.
I'm never not nervousinterviewing anybody, even a
fellow adult club player.
You think we're just peers.
I still get nervous about thatbecause I want to honor them.
(20:35):
I think being nervous showsthat you care.
No doubt I mean not insanelynervous, but like a little bit
of nervousness.
It just shows that you care,you want to do a good job.
It's their time, it's theirjourney, it's their story and I
want to do a very good job ofthat.
(20:55):
And I get nervous about, youknow, whether I will do a good
job, but yeah for sure you get alittle more nervous when it's
your, when it's your freakingheroes.
You know, yeah, yeah, no doubt.
As far as how I prepare forthat, you know well.
So let me, let me highlightwhat I think is like my, my
personal antidote to the thatnervousness and like, like you
said, like, to some degree, youcan't.
Like these are legends and theyhave volumes and volumes of
what they've accomplished.
So you can't, you can't, gothrough every game that they've
(21:17):
done.
You'll never, you'll never knoweverything that they've done.
So here's two things for me.
Like I try to remind myself todo two things in interview.
One is to be grateful for likeevery part of it.
I think when you're gratefulduring an interview, it's hard
to do a bad job.
Omar (21:36):
Ooh, that's a bar.
That's a good one, yeah.
Daniel (21:39):
Yeah, you know.
And then the second part ofthat is just to try to have the
conversation be joyful, like Idon't want to.
I don't want to communicatenervousness.
I want to communicate how happyI am to be talking with them
and I want to make it fun andinteresting and dynamic.
And so, like part of me issaying like let's have a good
time, let's have a funconversation and the second part
of me is saying, like I'm justgoing to, I'm going to express
(22:01):
my gratitude, I'm going to begrateful for this experience,
and I feel like if you do thosetwo things, like nerves will not
be the centerpiece of what'shappening.
So for me it's just it's joyand gratitude to try to counter
the nerves that are inevitable.
As far as, like the logisticalpreparation goes, I mean, I
always prepare.
You know that I'm alwaysputting in work to prepare for
(22:22):
my guests.
I'll be honest, like if it'ssomeone like jennifer shahadi or
bruce pandolfini or somethinglike that.
I do more in part because theyjust have a longer history they
got more stuff for you to learn.
Yeah, right right, like allthese videos, books, and so I
gotta like I gotta portion more,but also, like you know, if
someone is on that level andthey are honoring me by being a
guest, I want to give the bestthat I can.
(22:43):
So, yeah, I'll probably put in alittle more time for those
people, good amount of effort toprep all.
So that's a long answer to yourquestion no, no, no, that's
good.
Omar (22:54):
It's a what I hear coming out of.
That is some of the a themethat we've been talking about,
and that's really it's yourcharacter the fact that you have
a posture of humility becauseagain you've got a hit show, you
know.
But you don't behave assomebody who has a hit show.
You've you've had a who's whoof guests and, but you don't
(23:18):
conduct yourself as somebodywho's had a who's who of guests.
You conduct yourself as like Ifeel like you always have first
show energy every time I Ilisten, it's a yeah it's, it's
like oh wow, this is my firstshow, you know, let me make sure
I do this right.
You know, and you've had several, but they all feel like first
(23:39):
shows and I don't mean that interms of, like, the quality has
not evolved or what have youRight?
Daniel (23:44):
But you know what I couldn't say Speaking for energy
?
Omar (23:47):
It's a.
I'll put it to you this way,daniel the your show.
If I were to say the qualityhasn't evolved, I could actually
say that to you as a compliment, to say that it's always been
tip top, like it's a therewasn't much it needed to do to
like I listened to it and I go.
How is he going to top this?
(24:09):
I remember the first time Ilistened to your show.
I was getting ready for anevent and I was on a run.
I remember like your show washad replaced my music you know,
and so I'm running like fourmiles just to kind of clear my
head, and then right after thatI've got like a seven o'clock
game.
So this is like around fouro'clock and I'm out just on a
(24:31):
run.
I get back no-transcript.
(25:07):
Yeah, no, if it is, it'd bethis one, Cause I'm doing it you
know, but the but.
No, it's.
It's a.
No you have.
You have an excellent,excellent product, man.
It's a.
Let me ask you though yeah,what do you think?
I know why it's unique and whyit's different for me you know,
and the impact that it has forme and why it's different.
(25:28):
And again, this is somethingthat, prior to us coming on
camera, we were talking aboutthis and maybe I touched on here
.
I just can't remember the Ididn't want to do a show.
People would say to me you knowyou should do a show and I'm
like I can't do a show becausethere's already too much good
content out there.
But you've managed to find avery unique slice in the space,
(25:48):
and one of the things that yousay a lot that I like is there's
enough out here for all of usto eat, you know, and but how do
you, how do you make your showsimilar but different?
you know, it's a chess podcast,but it truly is an experience
Like it's the.
What it is.
(26:08):
I think it's that branding ison brand it is it is an
experience, and I say that, man,like you know that's, that's
not hyperbole, I mean that it'sit's, it's an experience
listening to your show it's.
It's that unique.
What do you think, though,gives it that?
Daniel (26:26):
Yeah, that's a that's a great question.
I should ask my audience too,Like I've never heard, I've
never like directly asked themthat question and asked that's a
great idea.
Those answers from like exactlylike what stands out to you.
Omar (26:39):
Oh, you know what, daniel?
Too I think you could, sinceyou've interviewed so many great
title players, like I'd love tohear, like what Jennifer
Shahadi would say relative toall the time she's been
interviewed.
Well, what was unique aboutthis with the chess experience
for me was X, y, z.
Like I would love to get someof that Like yeah, dude, that's
something that you get.
(27:00):
Those, you print that out, youframe it.
Daniel (27:02):
You know what I mean Exactly.
That's something you hang inyour house.
There's no way.
If I ask her that question, I'mnot posting and sharing her
response.
Omar (27:09):
Yeah.
Daniel (27:14):
Whatever it, her response yeah, whatever, that's
something that you that you do,that, but yeah, please, yeah, so
yeah, I guess the the reason Ibrought up that first is I'd be
curious to know what peoplepursue my audience perceives, as
what stands out is differentthan what I'm trying to do.
That would be, or maybe it'sthe same, I don't know.
One thing we already talkedabout, which is that this is the
adult club player perspective.
You know, and that's that's.
I almost don't think I've seenthat anywhere else in.
(27:36):
You know, club playerinterviewing, title players,
sometimes very big name titleplayers, that's rare, that's
rare and and I think that givesit a different flavor than most
shows, and I'm proud of that.
And you talked about, like youknow, like how I prepare for
interviews.
Well, let me restate that itwas something else that you said
that caught my attention.
(27:56):
You said that I always havelike a humility as I'm doing all
of those.
That's because I feel like I'ma representative for the people
that were a part of the MHScommunity.
The adult learns people tryingto get better, you know, while
managing jobs, families, allthis stuff, I feel like I'm just
a representative.
I'm not technically speaking,but I treat it as I'm going in
(28:20):
there for all of us to ask thequestions that we would ask.
So it's not really about me,it's just about me representing
our group like an ambassador, soto speak.
Love it and I think that's oneof the standout things about the
show is having one of usinterview these big name players
okay the other is that we'rethe improver group.
(28:43):
That's what drives us, is thisinterest to get better, to see
what we can accomplish forourselves, and so I try to
always have improvement help onthe show I shouldn't say always,
like there's a part of me thatjust wants to do fun episodes
too, but yeah, it's frequentlythere.
You know that they're,especially if I'm interviewing a
title player that we're goingto talk about.
(29:04):
You know some tips on howpeople can improve.
So there's there's there's anemphasis on learning and
improvement.
That isn't always there in allchess content and certainly not
to the club player level.
Like I said, you know maybeit's for beginners.
there's stuff for beginners,there's stuff for dance players,
but at our intermediate-ishlevel, you know.
(29:24):
So that's another second thing,and then the third thing that
I'm very proud of is that halfof my guests are women, and
again, Beautiful.
Jennifer Shahadi's influence isthat half of my guests are women
and, again, beautiful yeah,reading her book chess queens,
realizing, learning about thelack of representation that
women have in chess, thetreatment that they've
unfortunately had in chess, andjust trying to do my part to
(29:51):
improve the chess world justeven a tiny bit that way on the
representation level.
And the truth is I don't knowthat it makes the huge splash
that I would love for it to do.
I would love for it to say thatit's like a factor in turning
the chess world around andgiving women more representation
.
Right, I don't know that that'sthe case.
Omar (30:11):
I do it more out of principle than I was going to
ask you man, is it intentional?
Okay, so did you?
Or did you happen to just go?
Oh my gosh, half my, my guestswere.
Or did you say you know what?
No, I've had this many maleguests.
I'm not going to have this many, you know, female guests.
Daniel (30:33):
I even recorded my first episode, I knew that that was
going to be a goal.
I knew that I was going to gofor half of my guests being
women, and it's very intentional.
Sadly, it's a little harder todo that because there's less
women in chess, just numerically, it just is, it's a fact.
It's unfortunate, and by a lot.
It's not like it's 55, 45, it'slike 90, and so the pool of
(30:54):
potential women guests issmaller than male guests, just
because of the numbers issue,and so there is more effort
that's required to get 50 of myguests being women, exactly for
the problem that I'm trying tohelp alleviate yeah, think about
, yeah, wow, think about, like,yeah think about yourself.
like you're like in chess media,like think about all the
popular chess media centers thatlike publish on social media or
(31:16):
content whatever interviews.
Who do you see?
It's almost always men.
It's almost always men beingfeatured, and so I'm getting
less of like who's out there forwomen, you know, because, like
I don't see it as well as I wantto, so I have to, I have to dig
a little harder, work a littleharder to find them than I
should have to, frankly.
And so trying to do that,trying to give them that
(31:38):
representation on this show,it's something I'm very proud of
and I think that also makes mychess con different than
everything not just otherpodcasts, but YouTube streaming
where there's an interviewsetting or there's guests.
It's rare that half are women.
There's an interview setting orthere's guests.
It's rare that half are women.
It's, in fact, I think onlylike jennifer's ladies night
like, yeah, did something likethat.
Omar (31:58):
So you know, we're all women, but do you find in terms
of the feedback that you'vegotten about that?
One, have you gotten anyfeedback about it?
And two, have you again?
It's and it's not a measurementin terms of just that you did.
It is commendable.
Let me just give you yourflowers on that immediately.
Thank you, because it goes backto what we talked about as far
(32:23):
as leaving the game better thanyou found it going to benefit
people who have been treated sopoorly by the game, which is
just sad and unfortunate.
The fact that you are doing thisto draw attention to it, and
draw positive attention to itand say, hey, I'm going to be
from show zero, very intentionalabout balancing this out in
(32:48):
hopes of drawing more women tothe game, and that's one
fantastic.
But two, have you received anyfeedback from anyone that says,
hey, you know, this made me moreinterested in playing or this
gave me more courage to be ableto go in?
Because I think about all justthe women that you and I know,
who play the game, that we bothknow as friends of ours or
(33:11):
people that we, I sometimesthink like how in the world do
the?
You know, why do they keepgoing?
You know, just off of thestories.
I've talked with them aboutpersonally, sort of offline, and
I hear the different things,stuff like I had to change my
profile icon, you know, onchesscom, because I kept getting
(33:32):
marriage proposals or differentthings.
You know, just that kind ofstuff.
Have you found that your showand your format and the way that
you've done it has?
Have you gotten any feedbackthat like, hey, this is working.
Or is it one of those thingsthat you're you're hoping to
still receive?
Or are you good if you neverhear it so long as you're you're
you're doing?
Daniel (33:52):
it.
Yeah, like all of those things.
So I do get.
I have gotten feedback,interestingly enough, from men,
men with daughters okay, menwith daughters saying that they
listen to my show with theirdaughter, particularly the ones
that have no guests yeah, andthat they're very happy that
there's a show out there that isfeaturing women.
(34:13):
So that way they you know, theysee that representation.
This I can do it too, or I wantyou know, so they can have more
role models to find and connectwith.
So that has happened and youknow, honestly, like the first
message that I got, like thatthat's enough to always keep
doing it to me yeah yeah, youknow, if you if it's just one
person that you impact on thisworth it.
(34:35):
Worth it.
As far as my own audiencedemographics you'd be.
It's like it's surprising to meit is 90% plus male, and so
okay.
But I also feel like this isthe problem that we have.
I don't expect my show tochange the number of women in
chess, and so if you go into itwith only if you go into
(34:57):
creating a chess podcast wherechess has 10% women and 90% men,
you know like it's not going tochange that reality.
Just because I feature halfwomen.
I guess my hope was that maybesome more women would be
attracted to the show and listento it Because there's so many
female guests.
Maybe that has happened to adegree, but but I haven't seen
that.
But here.
But here's the bottom line.
I'm doing it on principle.
(35:17):
If it changes anything, evenjust one or two people, that's
music to my ears and totallyworth it.
But if it never goes beyond oneor two people, that's okay,
because I just feel like it'sthe right thing to do.
Omar (35:31):
Just to dovetail over that , I thought of Caitlin Clark and
what she's done for the WNBA.
Okay, what do you think itwould take to have that impact
on the chess world?
You know, is it what if we had?
Like I mean, cause, here's thething.
This is why I'm like I'm, I'mwondering.
The the biggest thing to happento chess in the last 10 years
(35:54):
was the Queen's Gambit.
When you think about that interms of like Beth Harmon's not
even real, but we've had BethHarmon's that- were real.
We've talked about a couple ofthem already just on, you know,
in this interview, and you wouldthink that having a show like
that, like it boggles my mindthat a show that had a female
(36:18):
chess superhero, for all intentsand purposes, would draw more
men to the game than women tothe game, like it would be now.
again, I don't know if that's if, how that nets out, you got 62
some odd million people thatwatch that show.
But I'm wondering what theoverall impact of that has been
with women on the game.
But as you're telling me, I'mI'm thinking that 90, 10 sounds
(36:41):
about right.
So I'm I'm wondering, withouthaving any data in front of me
and just your opinion, whatcause I feel like Beth Harmon
was Caitlin Clark, and we've hadreal ones.
We've had people that have hadthat.
We've had women that havebroken, you know, have broken
the barrier.
What else do you think it wouldtake to draw more women to the
game?
That's a great question.
Daniel (37:04):
I mean, I feel like Jennifer does a great job of
answering that question in thebook, so my answers are her
answers because she knows betterthan me, no doubt.
And I've had a couple of gueststalk about this.
Comfortable female guests talkabout this.
I mean, I think a lot of itgoes to a welcoming culture for
women, like when they go to achess club or when they connect
(37:25):
with people online in chess,that it needs to not be sexist
or harassing.
If it is, you just stop it deadin its tracks.
Right, like who would ever wantto stay in an experience, like
you said that, right like you're, you're surprised that they
stay in it in spite of that andyou know, to their credit,
they're willing to to you knowyeah, endure that, try to endure
(37:48):
that, try to set it aside asmuch as possible because they're
, because they want to do whatthey love, and god bless them
for that.
But of of course, there's manymore that just say I'm not
putting up with this.
Forget it, you know.
Omar (37:59):
Yeah.
Daniel (38:00):
And I think I don't know how you solve that, but I feel
like that is critical.
I mean, you're saying, like,how do we change the culture,
not just even in America, butprobably worldwide?
Like that's a tough thing tofigure out.
I don't have an answer to how,but I do know that that has to
be something that's addressedbecause, like, if you don't have
this warm welcoming space, howdo you keep people in the game?
Omar (38:23):
Agreed.
Daniel (38:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Omar (38:24):
That's a yeah, Go ahead.
I'm sorry, man.
Daniel (38:26):
Yeah, no, I was just gonna say I mean the other out
there, it needs to be a.
You know, I I often refer tochess as a sport, just because
it's yeah, it's, 100 is a sport.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, I mean,it is a game, but it's more than
a game.
Omar (38:41):
The way we normally talk about that word game, I just
like I've never been angrierabout a game that, right then, I
have about.
You know, if I lose abasketball game, I don't, I
don't dwell on it for years,right exactly, exactly, yeah, I
just want to elevate it abovemonopoly.
Daniel (39:00):
You know that's right.
Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I meanwhat was I gonna say?
Yeah, when you have a sportthat you know you can, you can
choose, like, who you want toshow, that's in it and you're
not showing the women that aredoing what they're doing.
Like that's a problem too.
I do think that all females,whether they're girls or women,
are looking at that, and youknow that's part of being
welcoming to me, you know, issaying like you are part of this
(39:24):
, you know.
So I think representation, Ithink treatment of women and
girls in chess communities iscritical.
Omar (39:30):
Whether it's online or in person doesn't matter both, and
beyond that, I don't't know, Ifeel like if you did those two
things, you would take care of alot I got one thought on that
pain you have a tournament, have, have something exclusive for
them, invite top players, invitesome, you know, you know I
(39:51):
don't know where you you look atthat maybe just the rankings
have have a cutoff and you couldhave a sponsored event with
some real money.
And I guarantee you if somebodydid that, if they were to look
at that and say, okay, we'regoing to have a sponsored event
exclusively for women andthere's large dollars attached
(40:12):
to this, I guarantee you wouldmake a splash.
It would get people's attentionand people would say, oh wow,
wait a minute, that's somethingthat, like I can.
I can build a career off ofthat.
This is the first time we'vedone this.
It's somebody just has to like.
If I had the money, I'd do it.
You know somebody just has towant to, somebody has to to care
(40:33):
about that.
And if you do that, you knowmoney talks first and then
you're, you know somebody justhas to want to, somebody has to
to care.
You know about that and if youdo that.
You know money talks first andthen you're you know money, will
the money you invest insomething will get people to
then see your character.
But if you just lead withcharacter and this is
unfortunate it's never going tobe enough.
You know it's a you have tohave.
Like, if I walk up to somebodywho's starving and I want to
(40:59):
have a conversation with them, Ibetter feed them first right
like let me give them somethingto eat hey, burr, you want a
sandwich?
okay, now I can talk to you.
Now you'll see, you've seen my.
I fed you.
Now you, you'll listen towhatever it is that I'm talking
to you about, and I think, if wewere to do that, it's.
There's no better way to beginthe conversation with honoring
women and wanting to draw themto the game than to pay them,
(41:20):
and to pay them is equal to, orif not more than, the men you
know it's it's to just make thestatement that would get
everybody's attention, in myopinion, yeah.
Daniel (41:32):
Yeah, I agree.
Omar (41:33):
Just the thought you know, the you know, and if I'm, if
I've, and if I'm ever in aposition to do it, I will do it
because I want to see that it'ssomething I'm very passionate
about and I know you are as well.
Yeah, all right, man, let meask you this when do you see the
show going from here?
You've kind of given yourapproach to how you go about it.
(41:55):
What makes it unique, some ofthe things that are inspiring to
you, but you've already got anamazing show.
What are the goals that youhave for long-term?
What, like, give me, like your,what do you want to have
accomplished in like the next 18, you know, next 24, you know's
your five-year plan relative tothe show?
(42:17):
Like, what are you looking todo and looking to accomplish?
Daniel (42:20):
Yeah, well, this might sound like I'm patting myself on
the back a little bit, but itwill be just like.
Omar (42:24):
No man again do that, you're allowed.
Daniel (42:28):
Echoing what you said, like I do think a quality show
at this point, and there's therehas been things along the way
too that I've done to to improveit, and so I think it's a it's.
You know it's a solid showright now, yeah, but what I
haven't spent much time on isgrowing it and it's it's.
You know it's got good numbersalready, but nowhere near what I
(42:51):
what I'd love for it to be.
So that's kind of like the twohalves to something like this
right, Like it's like reach whoare you like?
How many people are youreaching?
And then also like the qualityof the show.
I think for right now thequality is pretty solid.
I'll always tweak here andthere to do what I can, but I
think the main energy goingforward over the next year or
two is going to be in expandingmy reach, because you know, when
(43:16):
you believe you're doingsomething good, you want as many
people as possible to be ableto listen to it, watch it,
whatever the case may be.
So growth is.
Number is probably my numberone goal right now, and I feel
like my health is finallyfinally in a place where I can
do that.
Yeah, and I mean it's like alittle bit of a teaser here for
what's to come.
I will be creating a youtubechannel for this podcast.
(43:37):
We're going to be doing videorecordings now and, at a bare
minimum to start, there will bemultiple two to five minute
clips of those episodes onyoutube love it tbd on full
length video episodes, that's.
That's a whole big thing to do,but at the very least soon you
will be able to see a goodnumber of clips from each
episode.
Love it.
(43:57):
That'll help expand it topeople who, you know, don't
necessarily only listen to ashow like this.
Plus, I think it's excitingbecause it's going to open up
some possibilities.
I've never been able to talkwith anybody and have a
chessboard while we talk youknow a digital chessboard while
we talk, yeah.
And so I mean it basically opensup the possibility to do all
(44:18):
types of content that areavailable to do.
That you see on chess YouTubechannels.
So I may not just be limitingit to creating the video
versions of the show butactually expand to different
things.
Maybe we do some coachinglessons, maybe some you know irl
games that we post up there.
We'll see.
You know, sky's the limit oncewe have a youtube channel, in
(44:40):
terms of what else you can do.
Omar (44:40):
Will you do any sparring?
Oh interesting I would love tosee you play some of your guests
just for the experience, justjust to do it again there's.
You're not going to win likebut you should, but you should
absolutely play them like justto say you did like, how, like,
how long can I survive?
Daniel (45:00):
end of the conversation blitz game.
Omar (45:01):
Basically, yes, I would love to see like you play jen
shahadi in a three plus zero andjust see if how long it takes
her see if I can make it to move20.
Daniel (45:13):
Yeah, see if you can make the move 20 that, that,
that, like I'd love to see that.
Omar (45:17):
But go ahead, man, I interrupt you.
Daniel (45:18):
I'm sorry no, no, that's , that's great, yeah, so.
So there will be new thingslike that too.
You know types of content thatwill.
That will be part of the show.
That can be done.
But, to start, there will be,you know, a video component to
the show coming soon, which I'mvery excited about.
I've always wanted to do it,you know, and and now it's like
it's finally, finally, the timehas come and it'll be.
We'll be releasing that, sothat'll be a big part of the
(45:39):
growth.
But, yeah, I'll be honest andsure, like I want to.
In 2025, I want to double,triple the size of the show in
terms of audience reach and thenbeyond even that in years to
come.
So that's basically the, thenumber one goal and everything
that I do probably, you know,like everything I do, that'll be
new.
Yeah, we'll, we'll serve thatwill be to to expand more reach,
reach, more people.
Like I said, there's there'senough there for everybody you
(46:00):
know, there's people who wantall types of chess content for a
certain type, and I just knowthere's lots of people out there
who just don't need to knowabout the show yet.
Omar (46:08):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's that.
It's funny.
You got me thinking about howMagnus, as we're recording this,
was on Joe Rogan recently andyou know, like what a get that
(46:30):
would be if he could come do thechess experience, Is he?
I'm going to venture a guessthat Magnus would be a dream
guest, but do you have, is therea list of people that you
haven't talked to yet that youwould love to kind of bring on?
Do you have any dream guests?
You know now that you'rethinking about, like and I don't
mean it just in the sense ofwho could achieve the goal of
you expanding the reach of yourshow, of your show, right, but
(46:56):
just people that you know.
I'm thinking, well, let's lookat it from both perspectives.
Who would you love to get, whocould do that, and who would you
love to get that would be aguest?
Who, somebody that you wouldjust want to have dinner with?
Like, if the cameras weren't on, if you weren't recording, if
you were just out having a mealwith this individual, like, who
would those two sets of guestsbe?
Daniel (47:19):
Okay, yeah.
So as far as the dream guestsgo, this goes to what I'm proud
of with the show, which is thatI, like the top 50 players in
the world.
I am so impressed by what theydo.
I love what they'veaccomplished and I would love to
talk about theiraccomplishments on the show.
It's truly inspiring what theydo, but I believe in a chess
(47:39):
world that focuses on them andthe other people who are the
engines of the chess world andthe chess community.
So when I think of my ideal show, it runs the gamut.
I wouldn't want a show thatjust featured top 50 players and
nothing else.
There's probably many podcasthosts who would, chess podcast
hosts who would I don't know orpotential chess podcast hosts
who would, and that's awesome.
(48:00):
But I feel like my show istrying to be a voice for all the
people who make this chessworld go even beyond the top
players yes, the top players,but plus, and so my dream guests
are only those.
They're just people who I thinkare doing a great job, and I
(48:21):
love what they're doing.
So I'll give you one example.
Omar (48:23):
One is grandmaster robert hess has a beast he's yeah, he's
he might be the best ever.
Do it, man yeah his commentaryis extraordinary.
Daniel (48:33):
I like that he treats it seriously.
I mean, I'm also like havingfun being humorous, but he just
seems to have such a reverencefor the game.
Omar (48:41):
And he knows his stuff.
I mean, obviously he's a GM but, like the dude is nice on
commentary, like he breaks itdown in such a way Like he's
outstanding Right.
He's an amazing GM.
Yeah.
Daniel (48:53):
You know of an above and beyond GM, but somehow makes me
understand, like.
I can understand everythinghe's saying, that's crazy.
I don't know how he does that,but I think he's absolutely one
of the top tier commentators andI would love to have him on the
show.
Yeah, I mean, that's what I'msaying, like people like him.
Okay, so he's not a top 20player, but he is helping the
community so much by makingthese top events accessible to
(49:15):
people like us.
I really dig that.
Another one is Pia Cramlin,grandmaster Pia Cramlin.
I've tried, but I also knowthat in general she's just not
interested in being like onshows or interviewed, like with
mine or just in general.
So so I you know, I respectthat.
Omar (49:31):
That said, it doesn't change the fact that she would
be yeah, right, yeah, youprobably get it on a cramling
you probably get her,potentially, potentially one day
.
Daniel (49:41):
Potentially, yeah, you get her you might get mom, maybe
, maybe yeah, but yeah, likewith pia, I just love what she's
doing, how amazing she'sperforming, well beyond the age
people would expect you to stillperform amazing, like the fact
that she's doing this event, ifI'm not mistaken right, like
she's performing Well beyond theage people would expect you to
still perform.
Omar (49:58):
Amazingly Like the fact that she's doing this.
She's still playing events.
If I'm not mistaken right,she's still active In her 50s.
Daniel (50:03):
Yeah, she is crushing it in her 50s and I just find that
super inspiring.
Plus, she's one of the mostaccomplished women players in
the history of the world, sothat's pretty cool.
Women's world champion that'spretty cool.
Women's world champion andgrandmaster, alexandra Kostinik.
I don't know if I'm pronouncingher last name exactly right.
My Russian is not very good,but you know who I'm talking
about.
Oh yeah, one of the legends ofchess, and just her career is
(50:25):
incredible and she, too, stillperforming at a very high level,
and so, yeah, she would be adream guest for me.
Actually, she's talking aboutnervous.
I've gotten, I've been a littletoo nervous, like I haven't
tried to invite her yet.
Omar (50:38):
I've been nervous about it , shoot your shot man, you know,
shoot your shot I know, I knowshe's just so amazing.
Daniel (50:46):
And then someone who has been I don't know if he
currently, but at least has beenin the top 50.
Sam Shanklin Bro, get Sam.
Omar (50:55):
Get Sam.
Sam is such a good dude.
I met him at he was signing hisbook.
He had a new book come out andI was at the event.
I was playing the event that hewas signing.
The dude sat in the Skittlesroom with us and he's just
hanging out in the Skittles room.
There's a bunch of us like he'sjust here's this GM, and I kind
of look like he's just here'sthis gm, and I kind of look over
(51:17):
.
And I just finished playing agame that I had lost and I look
over.
I said, hey, sam, would youmind going over the game with me
?
He's like, yeah, so he slidesover.
He slid the board over.
We set it up and I startwalking him through what I'm
doing and I got an analysis of agame that I just played from
(51:38):
Sam Shanklin.
So I say that to say man, likeit's you 100% should reach out
to him because I think he'd doit.
If the dude will analyze myterrible chess at an event, he
will 100% do the chessexperience.
I think it's just you, you know, keep pressing for that because
sam, like he's a really goodguy, he's really nice guy yeah,
(52:01):
what appeals to me about him isthat this is like a certain
underdog quality to him.
Daniel (52:06):
It's, it's interesting like he's a top 50 world but you
know he's a super gm yes,freaking super gm but has like
this underdog quality because hehe learned a little bit later,
he had to work a little harderthan a lot of the other super
jams.
Because of that, I think to, toget to where he is and I just I
dig that.
I don't know, I can't help it.
I'm a lifelong fan of underdogsand there's a little bit of
(52:29):
that quality to him, even thoughat the same time you know he's
one of the best to ever play thegame.
Basically, I mean 99 betterthan 99.9 percent that'll ever
play.
And so that mix of like supergm with underdog is just that
really is cool yeah, and that's.
Omar (52:43):
It's like, wow, how do you , how do you achieve that?
Yeah, and then, on top of that,you're you're an underdog who
is a super gm that will hang outin the skittles room and
analyze a game of just a randomdude that you don't know from a
hole in the ground.
Daniel (52:59):
Right yeah.
Omar (53:00):
He's that guy.
Yeah, he's accessible, right.
Took pictures with everybody,you know.
Just, he played a simul as well.
I missed my opportunity.
I was too chicken to play him,you know, in the simul because I
was mainly concerned that I'mlike I don't want to burn out on
this, and then I've got a gameright after this.
But I should have just skippedthe game and played him in the
(53:21):
simul to be, to be quite honest.
Daniel (53:24):
That's what I should have done.
Omar (53:24):
Just taking the L on that and had the experience of doing
it just to be able to say Iplayed him.
But yeah, 100%, man, like reachback out to him, like him.
I think he'd do it, I really doyeah, yeah.
Daniel (53:43):
so those are like four that I think are amongst the top
of my dream list.
Thanks for listening.
This has been a production ofmy Business, adult Chess Academy
, and that has a website withthe same name, if you want to
look for it.
And that has a website with thesame name, if you want to look
for it.
You can also find me being waytoo active on Twitter by
searching my username, lona,underscore chess.
See you next week.
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