March 25, 2025 • 53 mins
120 Daniel Lona is interviewed by guest host Omar Mills, fellow club player, in the second part of a special episode celebrating The Chess Experience podcast's third anniversary.
Three years ago, Daniel Lona launched The Chess Experience with a simple yet unique mission: to create chess content by and for adult improvers - a rare thing in the chess world at that time.
In this episode, he discusses:
- What makes chess "real"? Is a 3-minute blitz game fundamentally the same as a 5-hour classical battle?
- Finding a balance between growing chess through Esports vs preserving traditional formats.
- Daniel’s #1 chess wish (and all of his answers to the rapid-fire questions he asks his guests.)
PLUS: Get a chance to win Omar Mills' new Chessable course (with full video) this week: "Chess Destiny: Lessons from an Adult Improver and His Coach.”
Get info on how to enter to win by following Daniel Lona on Twitter.
How You Can Support the Pod:
Join this show’s Patreon called “Podcast Perks” and get benefits like:
- Submitting questions to guests
- A shout-out of your name on the pod
- Vote on future topics/guests
- Exclusive behind-the-scenes updates about the show
- DM me any month for a brief chat on chess or episodes
Click here to join the Patreon for The Chess Experience.
Or you can…
>>Support this pod by grabbing a chess.com membership which will help you improve your chess & defeat your enemies. A small portion will fund this pod - and every bit helps! Just click this link.
>> Neither? How about checking out Daniel's chess.com profile? Witness his countless, embarrassing blitz losses. He even accepts some friend requests. (Ad)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Daniel (00:05):
Hey, welcome to the chess experience On this show.
It's all about helping adultimprovers.
I want to make learning chesseasier for you to navigate and I
also want you to have a morefun experience along the way.
I'm your host, daniel Lona, afellow chess amateur.
Let's get to it.
(00:25):
This show is sponsored bychesscom, the world's largest
chess community.
One of chesscom's most popularfeatures is called Game Review.
This feature weaves together alot of benefits.
In one post-game analysis, forexample, you can see how
accurately you played, whetheryou made any moves that were
deemed brilliant or great, whichmakes me feel a lot better
about my chess when I get one ofthose.
(00:46):
How accurately you played,whether you made any moves that
were deemed brilliant or great,which makes me feel a lot better
about my chess when I get oneof those.
And Game Review also offers avirtual coach that gives
insights on every move.
It'll also show you alternatelines that would have been
better for you to help youunderstand how you can improve
your game.
So go on chesscom, play a gameand try out the Game Review.
Welcome to this week's show.
This is part two of theprevious episode, number 119,
(01:08):
where Omar Mills interviews meabout this podcast in honor of
its third anniversary.
I split our chat over twoepisodes because we had a pretty
long conversation and I thoughtit would be kinder to attention
spans to make it into twoepisodes.
Now you don't have to havelistened to the other one first
or at all, but I think it allflows better and ties together
(01:30):
better if you listen to part oneand then part two, which is
this one that you're about tohear, and we definitely cover
some interesting topics in thisepisode, including should chess
grow its numbers through fastertime controls in an exclusively
online setting?
Is chess the same game, whetherit's bullet or classical?
Plus, I answer the same rapidfire questions that I ask my
(01:53):
guests, which leads us down adiscussion of some interesting
chess topics that I didn'texpect.
Also, I have a bit of newsregarding my guest host, omar
Mills, who's a fellow adultimprover.
He just released his firstchessable course right after we
recorded this episode, which Ithink is pretty amazing.
I love when I hear about anadult improver, an adult club
(02:15):
player, getting the opportunityto release a course.
I think that's a greatdirection for our community and
I'm super proud of him.
Plus, you can have a chance towin the full video course for
free.
His course is called ChessDestiny Lessons from an Adult
Improver and His Coach.
There's a link to check out allthe details about it in the
show notes, but briefly I'lltell you that it's a course
(02:37):
that'll help you with a bettermindset toward the game and your
improvement journey, a plan onhow to study and some advice on
how to approach learning fromyour mistakes.
It's aimed at folks ratedbetween 400 and 1100.
To get the details on how towin a free copy of this full
video course, just follow me onTwitter.
My username is lona underscorechess, and there's a link in the
(03:02):
show notes to my Twitteraccount directly.
All right, so let's dive intothe second half of my
conversation with Omar, where heinterviews me about this
podcast.
The interview picks up whereOmar asked me which of my guests
I'd love to hang out with.
I really love, overall, thesecond half of our conversation
here, because we dive into somedeeper topics about the game
(03:23):
that I don't think I've reallytalked much about at all on this
show with anyone.
I hope you enjoy it now.
You asked another question,though, too, which is just to
hang out with yes yeah, okay, sothat that's kind of similar to
my and one of the questions thatI have, like in my rapid fire
questions, right, yeah, that's,that's tough.
I feel like I should come upwith.
(03:45):
I've talked about a lot of thenames, the same names, a lot
Okay.
Omar (03:49):
If you want to put any of those that are, you know, it
doesn't mean that you can playthem or not play them, but you
can interview them and then havedinner with them.
You know, like maybe you'retalking about know them as human
beings you know even more so.
So it's a.
You could have people you knowon both sides of that list.
(04:09):
Nothing wrong with that.
Daniel (04:11):
Yeah, it's hard to say, it's hard to pick one right,
because it's just like everybodyI've talked about I would want
to hang out with.
Omar (04:16):
You want to hang out with?
Yeah.
Daniel (04:17):
Yeah, let me name one though.
Okay, it overlaps, but I'll gowith Robert Hess again.
I don't know, sometimes youjust feel like you connect and
you're like on the same vibewith somebody.
I just feel that with him Ifeel like we're similar
personalities or something, orthere's enough overlap there
that we could really connect andso, yeah, I would just love to
talk chess with him all night.
That'll be amazing.
Omar (04:38):
Let me expand that a bit, man, and ask you this Out of
everybody that you've had, achance to interview so far for
your show.
If you could pick one person outof that list to become your
personal friend, you could talkto them anytime.
They're your friend for life,lifelong friend.
(05:01):
Who would it be?
And here's the thing I'm'mgonna give you this too.
If you want to push on that andsay I don't want to answer that
because I don't want to leaveanybody out, I give you.
I give you, I give you space tobe able to do that because I
get that that.
That is a that's a tough askbecause you've interviewed a lot
of cool people yeah, see, I tryto.
Daniel (05:20):
I want to keep it interesting by mentioning
someone I haven't mentioned, butI, I feel like this is going to
come back.
Omar (05:25):
No, you can.
You can, absolutely can.
Daniel (05:26):
Yeah, okay, so this won't be a fresh name, that I
haven't said.
But Jennifer speaking toJennifer, shahadi speaking to
that, that connection quality,like we connect really well, at
least I think.
So that's like I say about alot of celebrity, or like
celebrities.
Omar (05:40):
I think we can agree right .
Daniel (05:41):
I think we can agree right.
Yeah, Like they're my friend, Imight not be their friend, but
they are my friend.
Right.
So that's kind of how at leastI perceive that we connect well
and I think that's what madethose episodes really good too.
Is that we just I think it'sjust personality, that's mostly
it.
I was going to say age, but Ithink it's really just
personality.
(06:01):
That is the driver there,because I think we're both
inclined to be like positiveupbeat you know, want to be
excited about stuff.
I just like that's her andthat's how I feel, like I want
to be with people too.
So, yeah, I mean there's areason.
She's like one of my favorites.
So I just got to move toPhiladelphia.
Because she's in Philadelphia,I went to.
Philadelphia, I might have ashot.
Omar (06:32):
I'm not welcome in Philadelphia.
I'm a Dallas Cowboys fan.
They will run me out of Philly,in fact, actually not now, they
probably be, like come, so wecan just beat on you In now.
Recently, as we're recordingthis, there's big money that you
know, as, like all the topplayers are starting to
gravitate towards this, andesports is big money.
(06:53):
My personal hope is that westart to start to see this
expand a little bit and morepeople will have opportunities
to take advantage of some ofthat opportunities to take
advantage of some of that.
But, seeing as how it's justgetting started and I know that
they're trying to make a splashwe probably won't see that for a
while.
I'm just curious to know yourthoughts on that.
Is it something that you thinkis good for the game?
Do you think that it's likethis isn't chess?
(07:14):
That's not real chess.
It's not this.
You have some people that willhate on it, other people who
will think that it's great.
Curious to know where you landon that and, especially given
that you have more of a and alens on players who are not the
top players, who may not everget invited to do something like
esports, where do you land onsomething like that?
(07:38):
What's your, what's yourthought?
Daniel (07:40):
yeah, it's tough, I probably.
The short answer is I probablyhave some mixed feelings on it,
because generally I'm of the let.
For whatever reason you know, Ilove over the board I love
(08:09):
classical, I love, you know,traditional tournaments and
things like that.
And yet you know what?
I've come to this place in myown chess journey, where I don't
advocate that any person'schess journey be a certain way
right, I want them.
Want them, you know, like, ifthey want to go to, if they're
an adult like us, only at theclub player level, and they want
(08:30):
to go for be a title player,they want to become national
master, great.
If you want to you know, studyhard three, four hours every day
for the next 10 years to getthat.
I am so excited for it.
And also day for the next 10years to get that, I am so
excited for it.
And also, if you just want tostudy 30 minutes a week and play
(08:51):
blitz and bullet the rest ofthe time, awesome, you're,
you're one of us.
You're, you know, you're achess person.
So I try not to have like aspecific definition of what it
means to have a chess journey orwhat you should be.
There is no should to me righton a chess journey you only
should is whatever you createfor yourself.
That's how I see it, like it'sa great way to look at it,
whatever form you want it totake.
Do that.
(09:11):
That's so, as someone who hasthat mentality but also prefers
like this, personally preferslike, yeah, the, the classical
style, yeah, the board, and thenseeing esport, like like
there's a little bit of aconflict, you know, because on
the one hand, I want to say likelet's grow the game, let's let
it be whatever it wants to be topeople, but there's another
(09:32):
part of me that also like that'sjust, it's not my vision of
chess, that's not how I think ofchess, like I'm basically just
disagreeing with myself at theend of the day, hard, not to.
Omar (09:43):
Given that you want to grow the game, it's.
You can't grow the game on yourterms not only say grow the
game yeah yeah, it's a but.
That's not to discredit yourterms because they're yours and
so they have value.
They're a part of the game andthat's tough because it's funny.
I got into into a discussionabout this on X with a guy
(10:06):
earlier today where I wastalking about some Blitz games I
played and he responded and myopinion it's not even this,
isn't even real chess, you know.
And my response to that was Ifound it interesting the
subjectivity of how one definesreal chess and the way I get
(10:34):
into that is the butcher.
We were talking about thisyears ago.
And Miles says to me 30 minutegames are rapid to me and I'm
like wait what?
30 minutes is like a lone wolf,that's like the 30 plus 30 or
30 plus zero or whatever it is.
That's a lone wolf game.
(10:54):
That's a classical lone wolfgame, like that's a classical
setting, only chess.
What do you mean?
30 minutes is rapid and he'slike well, he's like you don't
know this because you've neversat for five hours and play.
In fact, to this day, thelongest I think I've sat is
right around three hours for agame you know, and got a leg
(11:15):
cramp, like.
That's how uninitiated I am, youknow, into that space of super
long classical games.
But it becomes interesting whenyou say oh well, based on time
control, it speaks to thelegitimacy of whether or not it
is chess, and that's differentfor everybody.
You know on that.
So it's a.
(11:35):
It's very, very interesting,you know.
But I get where you're comingfrom because it's got to land
with you.
And so when you look at esports,you go that doesn't feel like
chess to me, but I get itbecause I want to see the game
grow and if this is what all thekids are doing, okay, well then
, by all means I'm not going totell it to get off my lawn but
at the same time get off my lawnRight.
(11:55):
Right.
Daniel (11:58):
Yeah, exactly.
So, yeah, I think you knowthere's two things about that.
This is a really fascinatingconversation, right Like in
terms of like, what do I thinkof esports?
Because it gets to the heart oflike a lot of big questions.
One of them is, you know, doestime control define the game?
Does it determine what we'retalking about?
Omar (12:17):
Or let me ask you this, daniel If it is time, control,
and do you have to have tactilepieces in front of you for it to
be chess?
Daniel (12:25):
That second one, I think I can fairly easily answer no
Like online.
Yeah, it's still chess.
Omar (12:32):
So interesting right Online is still chess.
As long as the time controlmeets the criteria, you will
have other people that will sayit's not chess unless I can
touch a piece in front of me,across from another human.
That to them is real chess.
But I interrupt you, Iapologize.
Daniel (12:48):
That's okay, but it's just interesting.
Omar (12:50):
I would have thought you were especially given your study
board and how beautiful it isand how I love to come to.
Chicago and steal it from youand make it mine.
It's like as a guy who lovesthe tactile feel and has one of
the most beautiful chess setsI've ever seen.
Daniel (13:05):
It's interesting that you would say no, no, no online
is fine.
Well, I definitely prefer overthe board, you know, but it's
still chess to me, of course,even if it's online.
I mean, I'll be honest, most ofmy studying is online.
But as far as the time controlthing, that's a really
(13:26):
fascinating question because,because you know, we're calling
it chess in both instances.
But I wonder if chess is sortof unique that way, it really
does become a very differentgame.
I mean, think of the contrastof bullet versus a 90 30
classical game.
I mean, yes, they're both chessbecause they operate under the
same, then the same rulesapplies, the same pieces and all
that stuff.
But it is fascinating how muchyou change the nature of the
game if you go to either extremeof the time control.
(13:50):
You know, and I think that goesto the heart of it, it's just
like well, it's a differentthing.
I mean calculation.
Calculation is barely evenregistered if you're doing
bullet.
Omar (14:00):
There's not enough time, yeah.
Daniel (14:02):
Right.
So why are you spending allthis time studying calculation
or trying to improve that skill,when we're just going to play
bullet?
Yeah, well, that's my point islike you're at least the
studying end of it definitelylooks very different if you're
just a bullet player versus aclassical player, if you just
did one or the other.
So I do think time controlmatters a lot and I think that's
probably you know a lot of mylike, a little bit of unease
(14:24):
when it comes to esports, chessbeing like esport, like that's
the direction of growth.
It's because it does change thenature of the game.
Omar (14:32):
It's, it's, it's your chess, but it's not the same
thing.
You're not playing the position, you're playing the person
right more than you are anythingelse.
Yeah, and I comes into it.
Daniel (14:42):
Yeah, yeah right and I feel like, to some degree, this
is an objective statement.
Like you can, I feel like youcan prefer chess as an e-sport
and you can prefer bowl, and youstill probably have to say,
well, yeah, this is differentthan classical.
You know what I mean?
I don't think the fact thatit's different is an opinion.
You know it is very different.
Omar (14:58):
Yeah, the only issue I take with it is the the the
planting the flag saying this isreal versus this is not real
because the reason I say that isnot because I disagree with it
per se.
There's a part of me that'slike well, no, this is real
chess if you, if you don't haveto think, is it chess it?
That's that that kind of goesagainst some of the origins of
(15:20):
the game it's, in my opinion,yeah it's a, yeah, it's a.
There's to me there's.
What makes people great is thewhen you the fact that they have
time to really sit there.
But, by the same token, myfeeling is that if it's all
about that, then just get rid ofthe clocks.
I think I posted that on x.
(15:41):
I'm like let's get rid of theclocks and and then I posted
that I ran away because that'ssuch a hot take, head explodes.
Daniel (15:48):
Yeah, it's like head explodes.
Omar (15:50):
Because when you factor that up to top players, every
game is going to be a draw, iftime is never a factor.
But then it goes back to whatwe talked about the minute you
add in the addition of time anda time control, where do you,
subjectively or objectively,draw the line in the sand and
(16:12):
say this is where it becomesreal chess.
Anything shorter than this isnot real chess even though the
same rules apply to me.
It's just very fascinating.
Daniel (16:21):
You know when you think about it yeah, and I I don't
think I personally would everframe it as real versus not real
, like that's too.
That's too harsh to me, that'son the side of people who are
enjoying what they're enjoyingto say that what you enjoy is
not real.
Like that's, that's me yeahexactly, exactly that.
Omar (16:35):
That, in fact, this was my debate, you know, with my buddy
online who was like, and mindyou, in his defense he said it's
not real chess to me.
So he did apply thissubjectivity and my response was
like it's interesting, thesubjectivity of it for these
reasons that we're talking about, which is where it becomes
fascinating.
But I'm not going to take awayfrom him that to him, long, slow
(17:00):
positions and positional chessfeels like real chess to him,
and there's nothing wrong withthat chess to him and that, and
there's nothing wrong with thatat all to me, and there's a part
of me that's like inclined toagree.
I'm also wondering, if I werebetter at it, would I be even
more inclined?
Daniel (17:16):
I agree.
Well, I mean, I'm definitelynot going to be a person to say
like, let's not grow the gamethrough this, through esports,
like that.
It's just my own personalenthusiasm for it, you know, is
lesser than if you told me like,hey, classical tournaments are
blowing up and becoming morepopular you know it's even more
easy for me to get excited aboutone versus the other, but you
(17:38):
do it if you got invited, what Ido you get if you join team
liquid.
Omar (17:43):
Now you and magnus are teammates right?
Yeah, I'm not daniel lona isliquid, right, would you?
Daniel (17:51):
would you be down?
I'm not, I'm not a purist, Ijust I just, I have preferences.
Omar (17:57):
I'll take anybody's money if they're giving it away.
Right, yeah, exactly, exactly.
Daniel (18:00):
Exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah, no, I'm, I'm not, I'm not
like hardcore on my opinions.
Yeah, I just uh, I have mypreferences and I guess I would
just say, like, maybe I wouldlike to see a world where we try
to grow the game at alldirections and not just I got
(18:23):
you.
Yeah, but I am for finding newways to do that.
You know like we've talked, Ithink, a couple of times on this
show about how much we bothlike the idea of Pogchamps and
we need more things like that.
So I mean that's, that's ashorter, you shorter, you know
that's.
I mean it's a faster timecontrol.
Omar (18:38):
I hear what you're saying, though Not at the expense of
classical chess.
Like.
I don't want classical chess tonot have a space.
I don't want it to be lost inthe shuffle of like.
Don't grow the game at theexpense of what made the game
beautiful to begin with.
And I hear you 100% on thatRight, right, like, let's.
Daniel (18:57):
let's still try to grow classical tournaments.
You know, and and you know,speak to the.
You know the awesomeness ofclassical chess.
It does.
I don't, yeah, I don't feellike it has to be one or the
other, but I guess that would be.
My only concern is if we justtry to grow the game only on
super fast time controls andonly online.
Yeah, agreed, yeah, so anyway,yeah, that's.
(19:17):
That's my long answer to thatquestion.
Omar (19:19):
All right, uh, duman, this has been fantastic.
Yeah, I hate that you're goingto take your show back from me
after we're done with this, butI want to throw some some rapid
fire questions at you.
Daniel (19:34):
The ones I asked my guests.
Omar (19:36):
Yeah, exactly yeah, the the now one.
Yeah, exactly yeah, Now onethat I got here.
We literally just talked about,which is, like you've already
answered, what your favoritetime controller is, so I'm going
to take that one out of the mix.
Daniel (19:47):
Okay, Are you specific about that one?
Omar (19:48):
though.
Oh, please, please, Absolutelyso yeah definitely it's
classical but 90-30.
Daniel (19:53):
That's like Really Apex chess for me personally.
Omar (20:03):
I'll do that.
For me is yeah, 90, 30 is myabsolute favorite way to play
the game okay, so that'sincrement 30 not delay, not
playing, oh delays.
The delay is is blasphemous.
What's wrong with?
Daniel (20:12):
delays.
Delay just hurts me well,because it makes it the game
harder for me.
Omar (20:16):
So I like it, it's.
It's kind of the same thing youget the, you get the seconds.
Daniel (20:21):
No, no, you still get them but I can't, I can't I
can't build, so it's just, it'sjust like clock ticks, but I
can't yeah that's hysterical.
Omar (20:32):
Yeah, I need to see the 30 on my clock.
I need to see it add to my time.
Daniel (20:37):
I got you yeah, I can build a bigger thing, a
stockpile of time that way, yeah, whereas, like, if I'm five
seconds into the delay and Imove.
Omar (20:47):
I don't get the other 25.
Yeah, you don't get the other25.
Daniel (20:49):
Yeah.
Omar (20:50):
You just move, and then they just, you know their clock
starts.
Daniel (20:54):
I don't like things that make the game, for me, than it
already is, more than fair.
More than fair, okay.
Omar (21:02):
All right, so let me start throwing some of these at you.
Daniel (21:05):
Man, sure Knights or bishops, bishops all the way,
really All the way.
Omar (21:11):
Okay, why?
Daniel (21:13):
So, yeah, I got a specific reason for that.
People like knights becausethey're tricky, right, I mean,
at least at our level.
People like them because theycan be.
Yeah, but it's a double-edgedsword.
It's harder for me, too, to tolike plan with and find its
optimal move and see it in onesecond or things like that.
You know.
So like it messes with me tooas a player, messes with my
(21:35):
opponent just as much as itmesses with me, whereas bishops
I just it's clean, like I knowthey don't surprise me as much,
I know what I'm doing with themand the bishop pair is just
lethal.
Omar (21:45):
So Very, very true.
Yeah, does this extend to areyou bishops, even in a closed
position?
Oh well if I have a shot toopen it up.
Daniel (22:01):
I'm going it up.
I'm gonna try to open it up soyour bishops, regardless.
Omar (22:03):
Yeah, yeah, okay, I'm gonna try to open that up.
Daniel (22:04):
Yeah, okay, no, I like it.
I like it.
I thought you.
I thought you might pivot onthat, but you're like no, no,
closed or open, I want I wantbishops, I respect it I'm gonna
have to use that with my guestsin the future if they pick
bishops, yeah, like knights,terrify me the.
Omar (22:20):
To me it depends Just the fact that I even asked you if
it's closed.
That's how I would answer that.
Knights terrify me, but I wantthem.
I will target Bishops.
I sacrifice them so much thatit's I almost kind of answer my
own question.
Yeah, I'll sack a bishop fornothing, just to do it, just to
(22:42):
open a position up.
Daniel (22:43):
But I'm very much that guy I'm very much crazy with
mine, but that's a reason tolike bishops, right, it's the
Greek dist.
That's a fair point.
Yeah, it could be the Greekdist, yeah, yeah no, oh, you
know what You're right.
Omar (22:56):
All right, I'm over there with you.
Daniel (22:57):
I'm team bishops.
You know what?
I Team bishops.
Omar (22:59):
yeah, yeah, All right.
So what's your favorite openingto play as White Evans Gambit?
I?
Daniel (23:05):
think I knew that.
You'll see, I'm a Gambit person.
Omar (23:08):
I remember when you started learning that, if I
remember correctly, Like that'swithin the last three years,
that's been your opening.
Daniel (23:18):
It has, yeah, for years now.
Omar (23:20):
Yeah, all right, I think I already know the answer to my
next one.
What's your favorite openingplay as black?
I think I know that.
Daniel (23:26):
Yeah.
So I'm going to split this intotwo because I forget which GM
it was.
I had a GM answer it this wayand I was like, oh, that's good,
Maybe I should do it.
But they said they answered itboth as against one D4 and
against one.
Omar (23:40):
E4.
Yes, yes, yes, okay, okay.
So it gives you a shot.
Yeah, E4, d4.
Or let me throw another wrinkleat you if they open with a
knight.
Daniel (23:54):
Oh well then I'm just mad.
That's fair.
I know that's like a solid move, but I don't care.
Omar (24:00):
Listen, I don't know that there's a better response than
the one you gave.
It's so noncommittal.
I was angry.
Yeah Right, I was angry.
Now that you've done that,commit to an opening.
Don't be afraid, put a pawn inthe center.
Stop this.
Put a pawn in the center, pickyour pawn it's.
D or C?
We all know that which of thosethree pawns.
Daniel (24:18):
Are you moving?
Omar (24:19):
Come on, let's not beat around the bush More than fair.
Daniel (24:22):
Yeah.
Omar (24:23):
I don't like teasing you.
All right, E4.
One E4.
What are you doing?
Daniel (24:28):
Okay, sicilian Sveshnikov, really, yep, yep, no
more French.
No, french has been gone fora,while what fresh hell is this,
sir?
Omar (24:42):
What is this?
What blasphemy?
Are you saying no, french?
Daniel (24:46):
I still like the French.
Omar (24:49):
Mind you.
Daniel (24:49):
I get excited when people online say they show some
love for it.
I'm all there for that.
I still like the French.
It served me well enough.
Omar (24:58):
It served you better than well.
It served me well enough.
I know firsthand.
That's right we played.
Daniel (25:02):
Yeah, I know firsthand how well it served you.
Yes, yeah, I remember like itwas like move nine or something
and you said I don't like any ofthis.
Omar (25:10):
Yeah, yeah, I was like I don't appreciate anything that
you're doing.
Yeah, I don't like this.
Daniel (25:14):
Yeah, it's Sveshnikov.
Andres told me you know you'regoing to learn what you need to
learn if you play the Sicilianversus the French.
He's not wrong yeah.
Omar (25:26):
I abandoned it and I came back to the Sicilian, because it
forces you to grow in ways thatyou don't want to.
Daniel (25:35):
Yeah, yeah no it's super Okay.
Omar (25:37):
So that's for Z4.
What about D4?
What do you serve?
Daniel (25:41):
up D4.
Took me a long time to find theright thing.
Omar (25:45):
You are in good company.
Everyone hates to see it.
I think I hate that more than Ihate the night opening.
Daniel (25:52):
Yeah, D4 is just like why?
Omar (25:55):
Why do you hate us?
Why do you hate us both?
Yeah, right, exactly.
Daniel (25:57):
Exactly, exactly.
Yeah, like I thought, we wantedto play an enjoyable game.
Omar (26:02):
Yeah, enjoyable game.
And then you're playing thisand you play D4.
That's just.
Come on, we're club players.
I'm not a positional.
Come on, I can't be apositional player as a club
player.
Yeah.
Daniel (26:14):
So the Albin?
Omar (26:14):
counter gambit.
Daniel (26:15):
So yeah, so D4, d5, they play C4, which is like the
Queen's Gambit opening typically, and then they play E5, sacking
the pawn, if they want to.
Omar (26:27):
Nice, nice.
So you're like all right, I seewhat you're doing and I'm going
to open it up anyway.
Daniel (26:31):
Yep, you open it up.
Yeah, see, it goes back to thatBishop thing.
There's a consistency in myanswer here.
Omar (26:40):
Yeah, answer, yeah, I like that.
Daniel (26:41):
I like that because you're gonna like they still
want to play positionally, butyou're like too bad.
Yeah, no, we're not doing anyof that.
Yeah, you should have played e4, right?
Yeah, it would have been a loteasier for you, it'd be a lot
easier for both of us.
Omar (26:49):
But no, you did that, and so now, now it's just chess,
right?
Yeah, exactly, yeah, love it.
Daniel (26:54):
So albin against uh, albin counter against Alvin,
countercambit against D4, andthen Sicilian against N4.
Omar (27:02):
Now, are you just, if you get somebody who is just I'm
going to Fianchetto everything,I'm going to Hypermodern, I'm
going to do that Do you justpause in the center, or you do?
Daniel (27:14):
you have anything Okay?
Omar (27:15):
And then you kind of just work it from there.
Daniel (27:17):
Yeah, basically, yeah, I don't have a lot of prep
against the Finke kind ofopenings.
Omar (27:22):
I don't know that you need it.
I think it's just more annoyingto me than anything else
because I don't know whatthey're going to do.
You know, and I play a ton ofBlitz so I see quite a bit of
hyper-modern openings, you know.
So you know, it's just that'swhy I'm just irritated by it.
But it's effective, I'll givethem that.
Daniel (27:38):
It is.
I know I console myself whenthey do that.
I'm like oh, come on, we'reclub players and you're going to
act like you understandhyper-modern opening theory and
then, they proceed to beat me.
Omar (27:51):
I love when I can punish it, though I do.
I do.
It's just you have to.
I find that you have to.
You can get out of the openingbut you have to.
You can get out of the opening,but you have to be able to think
during the middle game and thatwhat they're doing is they're
playing things to get you toblunder.
But if you don't, then theytypically run out of gas and
then it's a matter of if we getto an end game, then it's.
(28:11):
I find that most of thoseplayers who do that have not
prepped for end game trainingand it's a like it's.
I will say, say this it'seither, or with me, I prep for
it, but I mess them up a lot,you know.
So it's a, but it's verysatisfying when you get them all
right.
So, in one word, man, how wouldyou describe your playing style
(28:33):
?
Daniel (28:33):
you know it's funny, I I started to ask this is a newer
question that I started askingmy guests and I don't like it.
But then it's also like when Ihave to answer it myself can you
answer it?
Omar (28:43):
Can you do?
Can you come down to one word?
Yeah, right, and I actuallywant to hear this.
I'm curious to know whereyou're, where you're going to
land on this.
Daniel (28:51):
Okay, so this maybe isn't a typical word to describe
someone's style, but I'm goingwith thorough, thorough, now
especially when we're talking ina classical game.
Yeah, I mean it is both mystrength and my weakness,
because it gets me into timetrouble.
I'm a little too thorough, morethan I need to be.
But it's also a strengthbecause it's where I can.
If I can get an advantage bythe middle game, I often win the
(29:14):
game.
If I have to go into an endgame, I'm usually in time
trouble and the person beats mebecause I'm blundering, Not true
.
But my thoroughness, like, yeah, I consider more candidate
moves, I think, than average atmy level.
I calculate deeper into linesthan is common at my level and
that's what I love about chess.
I love being able to exploreall of that and that, I believe,
(29:36):
gives me an edge over myopponents, provided I can get
that edge by the middle.
Omar (29:41):
Yeah, provided you have.
You have the time that I'm timetrouble.
Daniel (29:45):
Yeah, I have time trouble issues, so that's a
strength and a weakness, but Ithink it accurately described.
I'm very thorough, like I wantto be.
I check all my, all my bases,especially after we're out of
books.
Um, yeah, very thorough in howI put it.
Omar (29:56):
Yeah not sure who's your favorite chess streamer or
YouTuber?
Daniel (30:01):
I'm probably not going to go with one of the big
celebrity names that we allthink of.
I'm going to go with AndresToth, and I'll tell you why.
Omar (30:09):
Solid.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I should behe should be on the level of
everybody that you're talkingabout.
Daniel (30:15):
Yeah, he absolutely deserves to be.
Absolutely deserves to be.
He deserves to be a hundredtimes bigger in terms of like,
following numbers.
Yeah, because I think she hasmy favorite balance between the
quality improvement advice whilealso being interesting and
entertaining and funny.
Yeah, because it's usually morejust.
I think a lot of people leantowards one more than the other,
(30:38):
like it's either like, veryjust, educational, it's very
helpful, but it's not.
Omar (30:43):
You know, it's not gonna be loud, yeah, yeah, or it's
just like really funny andentertaining, but it's.
Daniel (30:48):
You're not gonna get any better at chess and I just
think that he's just strikessuch a good, perfect balance
between the two, so that makeshim my favorite and just a good
dude on top of that veryaccessible.
It's just just a he's.
Omar (30:59):
He's the one person.
Coach toth is the one person II can think of that absolutely
obliterated me.
When I talk with him in termsof like going over my games and
the whole time I'm just laughing.
You know, he's like, this iswhy you're terrible, you know,
and I'm like thank you, you know, thank you, coach, he's, yeah,
he's awesome.
Daniel (31:19):
I remember one of those and he had one of the funniest
analogies ever, and this is notthis isn't I make many worse
mistakes, but the way hedescribed one of the things, one
of your moves that he didn'tlike, it was just the way he
described it was hilarious.
He said that you were bringinga frying pan to a nuclear war as
your weapon.
The frying pan is your weaponin a nuclear war.
(31:39):
And I I was just, I could notstop.
I don't think I learned.
I listened, I heard anythingyou said after that for like the
next minute I was just laughingso much.
Omar (31:46):
Exactly, exactly.
That's what I'm talking about.
Daniel (31:49):
Yes, he will make his point in the most hilarious way.
You can't even be mad, You'rejust like you're right to
critique you to hear whatamazing analogy he's going to
come up with.
Omar (32:02):
And what I think is like that's off the hip.
Daniel (32:04):
That's just him off the cuff, he's not planning that,
that's just something that stuffjust comes to him.
That was just natural, that'sjust how he felt about Moose.
Omar (32:15):
Listen, man, it might be an iron skillet, it may not be,
terrible right, I might havethat, you don't know.
Daniel (32:22):
Right, exactly, it's a stronger pan than you think.
It's a stronger pan than youthink you don't know.
My life, right, right, yeah.
And you burst out laughing too.
You can't be mad at thecritique when it's that funny.
No, you can't be mad, you justhave to take the L, and it's
that funny.
Omar (32:39):
No, you can't be mad, you just have to take the L.
You just have to take it andjust say you know what?
That's well played, sir.
Daniel (32:43):
Right.
And then, when it comes from anIM, how can you disagree?
Omar (32:45):
anyway, you can't, you just take it and you just laugh
and you keep it moving.
Daniel (32:49):
That's really all you can do, but it speaks to how
good he is Absolutely.
Yeah, he's one of the funniestout there.
Omar (32:59):
No, without question, without doubt, yeah.
Daniel (33:01):
Who's your favorite player of all time?
This is easy for me.
It's always interesting to mehow, like I would say, at least
half of my guests struggle toanswer this question, but not
for me.
For me this is pretty easy.
So it's Bobby Fischer, and Iknow there's, like always, the
asterisk attached to him becauseyou know the personal qualities
and all that right right.
But as a player and I think Ithink you might relate to this,
(33:22):
omar, because when it's yourfirst, your first favorite, it's
hard for someone to stop beingyour ever.
stop being your first favoriteyeah you know, back in the 90s
watching the movie searching forbobby fisher, that movie
created such an awesome mystiqueto him and, like he was the
first world champion that I wasaware of, just like how you said
, magnus yeah, like the firstthat you get to know.
Omar (33:43):
You can't undo that you can't undo that right, it's just
hard, like I know.
Daniel (33:47):
I know there's issues later that I learned about, but
but as a player, just purely asa chess player phenomenal.
And back to this underdog thingthis I'm gonna tie this in.
I love when I get a chance totie something in.
Yeah, I love underdogs.
And he was like the ultimateunderdog Poor kid from Brooklyn
takes on and defeats the entireSoviet chess empire.
(34:08):
I mean, it's David and Goliath,yeah, and I'm a sucker for that
kind of story.
Omar (34:13):
You can't be mad at it, yeah.
Daniel (34:15):
You know, you could argue who's a better player and
all that kind of thing, andthat'll be debated for all time.
I just don't think there's abetter story than no david and
goliath.
You know, it's just.
It's incredible and that's whyI also put him as my favorite.
It's just.
I don't know if anyone had oddsstacked higher against them to
claim the crown than he did.
(34:36):
I mean, he had no resourcescompared to all this.
You know, all the great chess,the great Russian chess players,
and to just do that some comingfrom almost nothing, is one of
the most inspiring stories.
So he'll always be my favoritefor that reason.
Omar (34:48):
Love it, Absolutely love it, All right.
So he may be the answer to thisone.
If you could play, all right,I'm going to throw.
You know, living or not, youknow all time if you could play
any of the top players in theworld at any time in the
timeline, who would it be?
Daniel (35:05):
Oh, that yeah, I mean, if we go anybody, it's going to
be the same answer.
Omar (35:09):
It's going to be Fisher.
Daniel (35:10):
Yeah, but if we went living, yeah, if we went living.
Yeah, if we went living, Imight go with Hikaru.
Really I think I'll go withHikaru.
Hikaru, like we're talkingabout firsts again.
I think Hikaru was the firstfor me, like in the modern era,
the more recently, like in thepast, I guess five years like
the first great player of themodern era that I really got to
(35:32):
know.
There's like almost no oneeasier to watch than him.
Like he's always out thereplaying, always streaming.
I think he was the first personwhere I saw the genius in
action.
You know, of course everyone'sseen like these videos of him
where he calculates, puts 80arrows on the board, and there
was just that mystique to him ofjust like, oh my god, like how
does this guy do this?
How does he do this?
You know, it's just I had neverseen someone for whom chess was
(35:56):
easier than for karu, and Ijust love that when, when
someone's like this game is easyto me, like obviously we do
these next 12 moves, I can'thelp but admire the hell out of
that you know, so yeah, sothat's Hikaru because that's
like my first sort of modern erayeah, understood all right now.
Omar (36:14):
Would this be the same answer for this, like if you
could hang out with any of theany chess celebrity for an
evening?
Daniel (36:19):
we may have touched on that, but I'm curious to know,
like if you got a differentanswer for who that might be
yeah, I mean, I think I answeredjennifer, but let me, since
we're asking the question again,let me, let me give another
answer.
Kisparov, really, yeah, okaybecause I think when I think of
like hanging out for an evening,I think of just someone with an
interesting personality on topof what they've done in chess,
(36:41):
yeah, and I mean I just feellike I listen to him talk
forever.
He is just one of those peoplethat's so engaging.
Omar (36:47):
Godfather man.
Yeah, that's, yeah, that's whohe is.
Daniel (36:51):
Right, I mean, he's such a dynamic personality, yeah,
and of course, now you'rehanging out with a living legend
on top of it yeah, so you putthe two together.
I'm gonna go with kasparov.
Love it yeah yeah.
Omar (37:04):
I'm curious to know if he said to you well, you know
you're hanging out with kasparov, and he says, daniel, what's
your, what's your chess vice?
What would you tell him, andwould your answer be the same if
you were talking to somebodyelse?
Daniel (37:19):
yeah, it'd probably be the same, I don't be, the same.
I can't lie to the legend.
I don't want that on myconscience.
Omar (37:26):
I can't mar the experience with that.
Daniel (37:27):
I had a great time except I lied to him once, so my
answer to that question, though, would probably be too much
opening setting.
Omar (37:39):
But it's weird.
Yeah, it's weird because Idefend openings why is that bad?
Daniel (37:43):
that's a good question and that's debatable.
Whether it's bad because itdoesn't help you improve after a
certain point, right, like tosome degree it does, but then
like, if you keep doing it likeyou get diminishing returns is
the idea, but that's aninteresting point though,
because maybe, just maybe, weshould just be doing what we
want to do in chess.
There's that point too, but Ithink if you want to label it a
(38:03):
vice, it's probably that.
I mean, if you wanted to namesomething that I do, it's
probably that, because Idefinitely do it more than
people advocate.
But I also kind of don't carebecause I like it.
There it is.
That's my answer.
Yeah, if someone said Dan,you're spending too much time on
openings, I would say yep, Iknow, but I like it.
Omar (38:22):
You know it's funny.
I have a similar vice.
It's not openings, but it'sbuying courses on openings.
Daniel (38:30):
Ooh, that's similar, that is yeah that is.
Omar (38:34):
You know, that is my vice.
Like cause, I'm always lookingfor the silver bullet.
Well, if I learn this, thenI'll know this, and then I'll be
able to win all the games, andthen nobody will play any of the
lines from the course that Ijust started studying.
If you could just upload it toyour brain, you'd be yeah,
exactly.
It works better for white,because you can kind of dictate
(38:55):
a little bit.
You know, I've had the mostsuccess with that, with the
Bishops opening.
You know, but I've had the mostsuccess with that, with the
other bishops opening in termsof studying that and getting
some of the main lines down.
It really helped me.
I didn't realize how wrong Iwas playing it for so long and
then all of a sudden I'm like Igot this course, Maybe I should
look at it.
And then you start playingwhat's in there, you go oh, I'm
(39:17):
winning now.
Imagine that it kind of helpsto study the thing you paid for
you know on that so, but don'task me how many courses I have,
because I have all of them well,you forgot.
Daniel (39:29):
You forgot to mention the most, the strongest, most
indefensible argument you havefor getting them.
Omar (39:33):
I did that way, you have it that way, yeah, that way, I
have it, that way you haveabsolutely yeah, yeah.
That is what can anyone say tothat I have run that into the
ground so much that people thinkthat I came up with it.
I'm like no, no, no, no.
That is that was gifted to meby Daniel Lona Stops people in
their tracks.
Daniel (39:51):
right yeah, they're like man.
Omar (39:52):
Cause, here's the thing, Cause they're like that's wow,
that is true, I wouldn't have it, it's true, yeah, now you do
have it if you need it.
Daniel (39:58):
So yeah, all right.
Omar (40:00):
So I think I know the answer to this one.
I'm going to ask you anyway,like what is your favorite way
to study or work on your chess?
I think I know this, though,but I'm curious to see if it's
what I'm thinking it is.
Daniel (40:12):
Okay, there's two parts to this.
Omar (40:14):
Okay.
Daniel (40:14):
First part studying an annotated game book.
Going through an annotated gameokay and then second doing it
over the board with my, my nicewooden chess set okay, I had the
second part.
That that was yeah when you putthose two things together.
That's my favorite way.
It's like it's just so relaxingto me.
Yeah, chess isn't oftenrelaxing no, no, it is not no,
(40:36):
it's many great things, but it'snot relaxing, it's not, yeah,
yeah but when you yeah, like youjust get like a nice beverage
to go with it, it's peaceful.
Maybe mid-evening take out theset, yeah, you know, go through
a game and just just watchsomebody else's genius and try
to understand it.
Honestly, it's like peak chessfor me, peak chess experience
(40:57):
all right.
Omar (40:58):
So I'm gonna ask you one more, and you already know where
it's coming you know, and I'mterrible.
I'm kind of nervous about thisbecause I know what I said when
you asked this to me and I feellike I might pay for what I said
to you on this.
If a chess genie existed andcould grant you any one chess
(41:20):
wish, what would you wish for?
Daniel (41:23):
Being on the receiving end of that for the first time.
Yeah, the hardest part of thatis, I think, picking, just
picking one.
And now I understand why JuliaRios, when she was on the show,
said wait, don't I get three,cause it's.
It is very hard to narrow itdown to one.
But I'm not going to go with animprovement answer.
Those are great, but I'm notgoing to go with improvement.
(41:44):
I'm going to go with somethingbigger than that for the game.
How about growing the game?
It's basically going to be that.
So I would love for chess.
My wish is for chess to becomeas popular and mainstream
throughout the world as, say,any of the biggest sports.
I would just love it to justhave that level of participation
(42:07):
, fame, respect, excitement.
It feels a little strange to saylike everybody plays chess,
like I feel like not everybodylikes the same thing, but I just
want it to be huge, as huge asany other sport out there,
because it deserves to be, ashuge as any other sport out
there.
Because it deserves to be,because we love this game.
Obviously you, me and everyonelistening feels it's worthy to
(42:28):
be on that same level and we'rejust trying to get it there.
So I would love if we couldjust, you know, fast forward
time, boom, we're there.
Chess is huge to the off-world.
I would agree with you.
That's my wish.
Omar (42:40):
That's a good wish, that's an excellent wish.
Daniel (42:44):
A small part is.
I mean, this show is trying toplay a small part in that we're
trying to grow the game throughthe show.
We all have our different waysof doing that, whether it's like
teaching a family member orwhatever the case may be.
The show is an effort to get usthere.
Tiny effort in that big picture, but yeah.
Omar (43:04):
No, that's a wonderful thing.
What's funny, man?
You made me think of this.
The appeal for chess for mewhen I was first getting started
four years ago was that it feltlike it was one of the few
things left, that from a sportsperspective.
That, mind you, this is all prescandals and cheating and all
(43:25):
those things, but if you takethat out.
Of it and you say let's just sayeverybody's being above board.
It's one of the few things leftthat there's you can
demonstrate.
It's.
It's skill-based.
You, you're either better thanyour opponent, or they're better
than you, or you're equal.
And there are no otherparameters, there are no other
(43:47):
factors.
It's you study, they study,let's see who knows what, either
through memory or throughtactics or through oh, I didn't
see that.
And the thing I love most aboutit is even after you, you know,
have battled over the board,the person that becomes your
(44:07):
that is, your opponent becomesyour friend.
You only don't root for themduring, whatever the time
control is for that match.
You're rooting for them beforeand you're definitely rooting
for them after, just not during.
And that's the beauty of it,man, your opponents become your
friends.
Jiu-jitsu is very similar.
You're a martial artist, so youknow exactly what.
(44:27):
I'm talking about Like thepeople you compete against
become your friends and you wantthe best for them, except
versus you.
And even if they do wellagainst you.
You're like wow, you werereally good today on this.
Daniel (44:40):
Yeah.
Omar (44:43):
It's amazing.
To that end, I would love tosee the game grow as you
described, become the mostpopular game, but I would love
to see an addition to that man,if anybody who had interest had
the opportunity to become aprofessional player.
And that to me was sort of theappeal.
I'm like, wow, if I just getgood enough, I can actually
(45:03):
challenge and play the topplayers in the world.
It's just a matter of me.
I can do that sitting right inmy house and improve, and if I'm
good enough I'll get thoseopportunities.
Daniel (45:14):
There are very few things like I can't go into the
NFL?
I'll never be good enough.
You got to be born right to beable to do this With chess.
Omar (45:24):
You just have to study.
Now, there's some naturalability that you have to have,
but if you train it, you canbecome good enough at chess at
really any point, and that, tome, is one of the most beautiful
parts of the game is that ittruly is accessible to everybody
, if we act right.
Daniel (45:44):
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
Omar (45:45):
If you act, if you're just a kind person, the game's
accessible and it's beautifuland it teaches you so much about
life, which is why I don'tunderstand why there's so much
gatekeeping around.
It kind of blows my mind, yeah,but I would love to see your
wish come true.
Daniel (46:01):
I really would, and I hope it does yeah, you brought
up a lot of great points.
On mine, we probably must havea whole episode, just on that
one topic, right, yeah but oneof the things that I do love
about it that you hit on is anytwo people can step up to the
board and play each other, andit's not wrong, it's not weird,
right.
Like you don't want likea-year-old prime specimen dude
(46:24):
boxing a little kid, right?
Like we can't share boxing thatway or something like that.
Or you know, there's like othersports where it's just like the
disparity is too much.
This isn't right you know Rightright, but with chess it's never
wrong for any two people tostep up to the board and play
each other, and I think that'swhat gives it one of its great
features.
It's so accessible to everybody.
Everybody comes here.
(46:46):
It doesn't matter age, gender,race, background, anything it's
all irrelevant.
We can all come together andplay this board and play chess
together.
It's just such a beautifulthing.
Omar (46:56):
It brings people together in ways that a lot of other
things cannot it's one of thefew things left, man, that it
has the unique distinction ofbeing ice cream and pizza.
Like we don't argue about thegreatness of chess, we argued
the semantics of chess.
What time control is best?
Daniel (47:14):
What's your favorite opening?
Omar (47:15):
What's this?
It's those things.
And again, if women were treatedbetter then it would be perfect
, but again, but we're workingon that and we're going to
continue to work on that.
I mean, we're going to continueto be intentional.
We got guys like you who areamazing, who are, who are
focused on that.
But, that withstanding, it'sone of the few things we have
left that unites everyone in theworld.
(47:37):
I've met so many cool peoplebecause of chess all over the
world and I wouldn't you knowagain, I wouldn't trade it for
anything and I I to like to yourpoint, man, I wish that
everybody could see that.
I wish everybody couldexperience that.
It's a gift and it it teachesyou, not just about the game,
(47:58):
but chess.
Chess will teach.
That's why it's, compared toeverything, it teaches you life
lessons, right they're, they'rejust they're in there.
And, and you know, I just uh, Ihope that we can.
You know, we can grow the game.
I really do.
Daniel (48:12):
Yeah.
Omar (48:13):
Yeah.
Daniel (48:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I mean, I think, I thinkyou are Omar, like I think what
you do.
Omar (48:20):
I mean, I think you are Omar.
I'm trying, man, I think you do, you do.
Daniel (48:22):
I mean we all do it in different ways.
I mean you bring that welcomingspirit, you bring the passion,
you connect with people, you'reaccessible, you talk to
everybody who wants to talk toyou about chess and, yeah, we
all play our roles, so I thinkwe will.
I mean, the game is growing.
That's the good news.
Omar (48:39):
The game is growing.
Daniel (48:40):
We just wanted to grow even more, that's all.
Yeah, we want to grow even more, you know.
Omar (48:44):
I'm right there with you.
Well, dude, look, as much as Iwant to hang on to this, I feel
like.
I have to give you back.
I have to return it.
That which belonged to you wasalways yours.
Your show is amazing, man.
Just I want to tell you thankyou for the opportunity to get
to do this for you.
The just even being able to bea part of this has been one of
(49:08):
the great joys of you know mychess journey, uh, and your show
has definitely been a favoriteof mine and it's it's helped me,
like I said just to.
It's just so inspiring, it's sounique, and what you've created
, man, is a beautiful, beautifulthing.
And especially now, to heareven more about what some of
your motivations were and whatyou were intentional about, that
(49:29):
was so interesting.
What I love about it is youwere intentional but you weren't
on everybody's face about it,you just kind of did it, you
didn't ask for credit.
You just say, hey, I'm going todo this and I'm not going to
sound it from the rooftops, I'mjust going to let you see it to
a point where it's like it'sthere and it's like it just felt
normal, like I never thought oh, he's got another female guest
(49:51):
on this week.
It was, oh, my God, he'stalking to Jen Shahadi.
I can't wait to hear that thefact that you're doing it and
you're normalizing it is thebest way to make the game
accessible to more and morewomen.
Is that?
this is how it should be.
It's not.
Oh, we're doing this justbecause we have to.
(50:12):
We're doing this because it'sthe right thing to do and we're
not going to make it weird.
We're going to make it you know, we should have been doing this
and I love that man, I love it,and that's the way it's
supposed to be and you're you'rethe pioneer in in that regard.
So just kudos to you, you know,and just thank you.
Thank you for doing what you do.
Daniel (50:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you, Omar.
I appreciate the kind words.
Omar (50:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
Daniel (50:38):
Yeah, it was well.
Let me tell you it was an honorto have you host this episode.
Omar (50:41):
Thank you, man.
Daniel (50:42):
And take the interviewing, the oh yeah, just
the host seat and interviewerseat for this episode.
And yeah, I just thought Ithought it would be fun to
celebrate the third anniversaryof the show Crazy man.
Three years, Three years.
It's beautiful.
So, yeah, very proud of that,very excited about that, and
yeah, just, I'm going into thefourth year with an attitude
(51:03):
that the best is yet to come.
Omar (51:05):
It is, it absolutely is, man.
Like I said, I can't wait tosee what you're going to do just
in this video space.
I'm remembering when we talkedabout this and it was like man
you should stream.
You should do this, you shoulddo that, and you were like it's
coming, you know, we'll getthere, we'll do it yeah.
And so I'm excited that it'shere.
Man, I'm excited that it's here.
Daniel (51:25):
Yeah.
Omar (51:26):
Yeah.
Daniel (51:27):
Thank you, thank you, yeah, lots of good stuff.
Omar (51:34):
And yeah, thanks for being part of that debut too.
Daniel (51:37):
I gotta say that I feel a little sheepish because I'm
like hey, I've launched aYouTube channel.
Who's the first guest?
Me?
No man, you know, say what you,just me.
Omar (51:49):
I'm coming up in here to do it yeah, I'll say it for you.
Daniel (51:53):
This just worked out that way in terms of timing.
Omar (51:54):
But there you go no, man, but it's the right way to do it,
because if you're launchinglike it, what better way to
introduce?
The show to a new audience thanto say hey, this is what you
know, this is what we do, we did, here's what we're doing.
Daniel (52:13):
And that's a beautiful thing, right, that's a good
point.
Omar (52:14):
Yeah To to the people who will be new to it Hit like and
subscribe and notification belland all things you're supposed
to do on YouTube right, exactly,exactly Awesome.
Daniel (52:25):
Thanks for doing this.
Thank you, man.
Omar (52:27):
Thank you, my pleasure, man.
Daniel (52:32):
Thanks for listening.
This has been a production ofmy Business, adult Chess Academy
, and that has a website withthe same name.
If you want to look for it, youcan also find me being way too
active on Twitter by searchingmy username, lona underscore
chess See you next week.
Hey, welcome to the chess experience On this show.
It's all about helping adultimprovers.
I want to make learning chesseasier for you to navigate and I
also want you to have a morefun experience along the way.
I'm your host, daniel Lona, afellow chess amateur.
Let's get to it.
(00:25):
This show is sponsored bychesscom, the world's largest
chess community.
One of chesscom's most popularfeatures is called Game Review.
This feature weaves together alot of benefits.
In one post-game analysis, forexample, you can see how
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(00:46):
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It'll also show you alternatelines that would have been
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So go on chesscom, play a gameand try out the Game Review.
Welcome to this week's show.
This is part two of theprevious episode, number 119,
(01:08):
where Omar Mills interviews meabout this podcast in honor of
its third anniversary.
I split our chat over twoepisodes because we had a pretty
long conversation and I thoughtit would be kinder to attention
spans to make it into twoepisodes.
Now you don't have to havelistened to the other one first
or at all, but I think it allflows better and ties together
(01:30):
better if you listen to part oneand then part two, which is
this one that you're about tohear, and we definitely cover
some interesting topics in thisepisode, including should chess
grow its numbers through fastertime controls in an exclusively
online setting?
Is chess the same game, whetherit's bullet or classical?
Plus, I answer the same rapidfire questions that I ask my
(01:53):
guests, which leads us down adiscussion of some interesting
chess topics that I didn'texpect.
Also, I have a bit of newsregarding my guest host, omar
Mills, who's a fellow adultimprover.
He just released his firstchessable course right after we
recorded this episode, which Ithink is pretty amazing.
I love when I hear about anadult improver, an adult club
(02:15):
player, getting the opportunityto release a course.
I think that's a greatdirection for our community and
I'm super proud of him.
Plus, you can have a chance towin the full video course for
free.
His course is called ChessDestiny Lessons from an Adult
Improver and His Coach.
There's a link to check out allthe details about it in the
show notes, but briefly I'lltell you that it's a course
(02:37):
that'll help you with a bettermindset toward the game and your
improvement journey, a plan onhow to study and some advice on
how to approach learning fromyour mistakes.
It's aimed at folks ratedbetween 400 and 1100.
To get the details on how towin a free copy of this full
video course, just follow me onTwitter.
My username is lona underscorechess, and there's a link in the
(03:02):
show notes to my Twitteraccount directly.
All right, so let's dive intothe second half of my
conversation with Omar, where heinterviews me about this
podcast.
The interview picks up whereOmar asked me which of my guests
I'd love to hang out with.
I really love, overall, thesecond half of our conversation
here, because we dive into somedeeper topics about the game
(03:23):
that I don't think I've reallytalked much about at all on this
show with anyone.
I hope you enjoy it now.
You asked another question,though, too, which is just to
hang out with yes yeah, okay, sothat that's kind of similar to
my and one of the questions thatI have, like in my rapid fire
questions, right, yeah, that's,that's tough.
I feel like I should come upwith.
(03:45):
I've talked about a lot of thenames, the same names, a lot
Okay.
Omar (03:49):
If you want to put any of those that are, you know, it
doesn't mean that you can playthem or not play them, but you
can interview them and then havedinner with them.
You know, like maybe you'retalking about know them as human
beings you know even more so.
So it's a.
You could have people you knowon both sides of that list.
(04:09):
Nothing wrong with that.
Daniel (04:11):
Yeah, it's hard to say, it's hard to pick one right,
because it's just like everybodyI've talked about I would want
to hang out with.
Omar (04:16):
You want to hang out with?
Yeah.
Daniel (04:17):
Yeah, let me name one though.
Okay, it overlaps, but I'll gowith Robert Hess again.
I don't know, sometimes youjust feel like you connect and
you're like on the same vibewith somebody.
I just feel that with him Ifeel like we're similar
personalities or something, orthere's enough overlap there
that we could really connect andso, yeah, I would just love to
talk chess with him all night.
That'll be amazing.
Omar (04:38):
Let me expand that a bit, man, and ask you this Out of
everybody that you've had, achance to interview so far for
your show.
If you could pick one person outof that list to become your
personal friend, you could talkto them anytime.
They're your friend for life,lifelong friend.
(05:01):
Who would it be?
And here's the thing I'm'mgonna give you this too.
If you want to push on that andsay I don't want to answer that
because I don't want to leaveanybody out, I give you.
I give you, I give you space tobe able to do that because I
get that that.
That is a that's a tough askbecause you've interviewed a lot
of cool people yeah, see, I tryto.
Daniel (05:20):
I want to keep it interesting by mentioning
someone I haven't mentioned, butI, I feel like this is going to
come back.
Omar (05:25):
No, you can.
You can, absolutely can.
Daniel (05:26):
Yeah, okay, so this won't be a fresh name, that I
haven't said.
But Jennifer speaking toJennifer, shahadi speaking to
that, that connection quality,like we connect really well, at
least I think.
So that's like I say about alot of celebrity, or like
celebrities.
Omar (05:40):
I think we can agree right .
Daniel (05:41):
I think we can agree right.
Yeah, Like they're my friend, Imight not be their friend, but
they are my friend.
Right.
So that's kind of how at leastI perceive that we connect well
and I think that's what madethose episodes really good too.
Is that we just I think it'sjust personality, that's mostly
it.
I was going to say age, but Ithink it's really just
personality.
(06:01):
That is the driver there,because I think we're both
inclined to be like positiveupbeat you know, want to be
excited about stuff.
I just like that's her andthat's how I feel, like I want
to be with people too.
So, yeah, I mean there's areason.
She's like one of my favorites.
So I just got to move toPhiladelphia.
Because she's in Philadelphia,I went to.
Philadelphia, I might have ashot.
Omar (06:32):
I'm not welcome in Philadelphia.
I'm a Dallas Cowboys fan.
They will run me out of Philly,in fact, actually not now, they
probably be, like come, so wecan just beat on you In now.
Recently, as we're recordingthis, there's big money that you
know, as, like all the topplayers are starting to
gravitate towards this, andesports is big money.
(06:53):
My personal hope is that westart to start to see this
expand a little bit and morepeople will have opportunities
to take advantage of some ofthat opportunities to take
advantage of some of that.
But, seeing as how it's justgetting started and I know that
they're trying to make a splashwe probably won't see that for a
while.
I'm just curious to know yourthoughts on that.
Is it something that you thinkis good for the game?
Do you think that it's likethis isn't chess?
(07:14):
That's not real chess.
It's not this.
You have some people that willhate on it, other people who
will think that it's great.
Curious to know where you landon that and, especially given
that you have more of a and alens on players who are not the
top players, who may not everget invited to do something like
esports, where do you land onsomething like that?
(07:38):
What's your, what's yourthought?
Daniel (07:40):
yeah, it's tough, I probably.
The short answer is I probablyhave some mixed feelings on it,
because generally I'm of the let.
For whatever reason you know, Ilove over the board I love
(08:09):
classical, I love, you know,traditional tournaments and
things like that.
And yet you know what?
I've come to this place in myown chess journey, where I don't
advocate that any person'schess journey be a certain way
right, I want them.
Want them, you know, like, ifthey want to go to, if they're
an adult like us, only at theclub player level, and they want
(08:30):
to go for be a title player,they want to become national
master, great.
If you want to you know, studyhard three, four hours every day
for the next 10 years to getthat.
I am so excited for it.
And also day for the next 10years to get that, I am so
excited for it.
And also, if you just want tostudy 30 minutes a week and play
(08:51):
blitz and bullet the rest ofthe time, awesome, you're,
you're one of us.
You're, you know, you're achess person.
So I try not to have like aspecific definition of what it
means to have a chess journey orwhat you should be.
There is no should to me righton a chess journey you only
should is whatever you createfor yourself.
That's how I see it, like it'sa great way to look at it,
whatever form you want it totake.
Do that.
(09:11):
That's so, as someone who hasthat mentality but also prefers
like this, personally preferslike, yeah, the, the classical
style, yeah, the board, and thenseeing esport, like like
there's a little bit of aconflict, you know, because on
the one hand, I want to say likelet's grow the game, let's let
it be whatever it wants to be topeople, but there's another
(09:32):
part of me that also like that'sjust, it's not my vision of
chess, that's not how I think ofchess, like I'm basically just
disagreeing with myself at theend of the day, hard, not to.
Omar (09:43):
Given that you want to grow the game, it's.
You can't grow the game on yourterms not only say grow the
game yeah yeah, it's a but.
That's not to discredit yourterms because they're yours and
so they have value.
They're a part of the game andthat's tough because it's funny.
I got into into a discussionabout this on X with a guy
(10:06):
earlier today where I wastalking about some Blitz games I
played and he responded and myopinion it's not even this,
isn't even real chess, you know.
And my response to that was Ifound it interesting the
subjectivity of how one definesreal chess and the way I get
(10:34):
into that is the butcher.
We were talking about thisyears ago.
And Miles says to me 30 minutegames are rapid to me and I'm
like wait what?
30 minutes is like a lone wolf,that's like the 30 plus 30 or
30 plus zero or whatever it is.
That's a lone wolf game.
(10:54):
That's a classical lone wolfgame, like that's a classical
setting, only chess.
What do you mean?
30 minutes is rapid and he'slike well, he's like you don't
know this because you've neversat for five hours and play.
In fact, to this day, thelongest I think I've sat is
right around three hours for agame you know, and got a leg
(11:15):
cramp, like.
That's how uninitiated I am, youknow, into that space of super
long classical games.
But it becomes interesting whenyou say oh well, based on time
control, it speaks to thelegitimacy of whether or not it
is chess, and that's differentfor everybody.
You know on that.
So it's a.
(11:35):
It's very, very interesting,you know.
But I get where you're comingfrom because it's got to land
with you.
And so when you look at esports,you go that doesn't feel like
chess to me, but I get itbecause I want to see the game
grow and if this is what all thekids are doing, okay, well then
, by all means I'm not going totell it to get off my lawn but
at the same time get off my lawnRight.
(11:55):
Right.
Daniel (11:58):
Yeah, exactly.
So, yeah, I think you knowthere's two things about that.
This is a really fascinatingconversation, right Like in
terms of like, what do I thinkof esports?
Because it gets to the heart oflike a lot of big questions.
One of them is, you know, doestime control define the game?
Does it determine what we'retalking about?
Omar (12:17):
Or let me ask you this, daniel If it is time, control,
and do you have to have tactilepieces in front of you for it to
be chess?
Daniel (12:25):
That second one, I think I can fairly easily answer no
Like online.
Yeah, it's still chess.
Omar (12:32):
So interesting right Online is still chess.
As long as the time controlmeets the criteria, you will
have other people that will sayit's not chess unless I can
touch a piece in front of me,across from another human.
That to them is real chess.
But I interrupt you, Iapologize.
Daniel (12:48):
That's okay, but it's just interesting.
Omar (12:50):
I would have thought you were especially given your study
board and how beautiful it isand how I love to come to.
Chicago and steal it from youand make it mine.
It's like as a guy who lovesthe tactile feel and has one of
the most beautiful chess setsI've ever seen.
Daniel (13:05):
It's interesting that you would say no, no, no online
is fine.
Well, I definitely prefer overthe board, you know, but it's
still chess to me, of course,even if it's online.
I mean, I'll be honest, most ofmy studying is online.
But as far as the time controlthing, that's a really
(13:26):
fascinating question because,because you know, we're calling
it chess in both instances.
But I wonder if chess is sortof unique that way, it really
does become a very differentgame.
I mean, think of the contrastof bullet versus a 90 30
classical game.
I mean, yes, they're both chessbecause they operate under the
same, then the same rulesapplies, the same pieces and all
that stuff.
But it is fascinating how muchyou change the nature of the
game if you go to either extremeof the time control.
(13:50):
You know, and I think that goesto the heart of it, it's just
like well, it's a differentthing.
I mean calculation.
Calculation is barely evenregistered if you're doing
bullet.
Omar (14:00):
There's not enough time, yeah.
Daniel (14:02):
Right.
So why are you spending allthis time studying calculation
or trying to improve that skill,when we're just going to play
bullet?
Yeah, well, that's my point islike you're at least the
studying end of it definitelylooks very different if you're
just a bullet player versus aclassical player, if you just
did one or the other.
So I do think time controlmatters a lot and I think that's
probably you know a lot of mylike, a little bit of unease
(14:24):
when it comes to esports, chessbeing like esport, like that's
the direction of growth.
It's because it does change thenature of the game.
Omar (14:32):
It's, it's, it's your chess, but it's not the same
thing.
You're not playing the position, you're playing the person
right more than you are anythingelse.
Yeah, and I comes into it.
Daniel (14:42):
Yeah, yeah right and I feel like, to some degree, this
is an objective statement.
Like you can, I feel like youcan prefer chess as an e-sport
and you can prefer bowl, and youstill probably have to say,
well, yeah, this is differentthan classical.
You know what I mean?
I don't think the fact thatit's different is an opinion.
You know it is very different.
Omar (14:58):
Yeah, the only issue I take with it is the the the
planting the flag saying this isreal versus this is not real
because the reason I say that isnot because I disagree with it
per se.
There's a part of me that'slike well, no, this is real
chess if you, if you don't haveto think, is it chess it?
That's that that kind of goesagainst some of the origins of
(15:20):
the game it's, in my opinion,yeah it's a, yeah, it's a.
There's to me there's.
What makes people great is thewhen you the fact that they have
time to really sit there.
But, by the same token, myfeeling is that if it's all
about that, then just get rid ofthe clocks.
I think I posted that on x.
(15:41):
I'm like let's get rid of theclocks and and then I posted
that I ran away because that'ssuch a hot take, head explodes.
Daniel (15:48):
Yeah, it's like head explodes.
Omar (15:50):
Because when you factor that up to top players, every
game is going to be a draw, iftime is never a factor.
But then it goes back to whatwe talked about the minute you
add in the addition of time anda time control, where do you,
subjectively or objectively,draw the line in the sand and
(16:12):
say this is where it becomesreal chess.
Anything shorter than this isnot real chess even though the
same rules apply to me.
It's just very fascinating.
Daniel (16:21):
You know when you think about it yeah, and I I don't
think I personally would everframe it as real versus not real
, like that's too.
That's too harsh to me, that'son the side of people who are
enjoying what they're enjoyingto say that what you enjoy is
not real.
Like that's, that's me yeahexactly, exactly that.
Omar (16:35):
That, in fact, this was my debate, you know, with my buddy
online who was like, and mindyou, in his defense he said it's
not real chess to me.
So he did apply thissubjectivity and my response was
like it's interesting, thesubjectivity of it for these
reasons that we're talking about, which is where it becomes
fascinating.
But I'm not going to take awayfrom him that to him, long, slow
(17:00):
positions and positional chessfeels like real chess to him,
and there's nothing wrong withthat chess to him and that, and
there's nothing wrong with thatat all to me, and there's a part
of me that's like inclined toagree.
I'm also wondering, if I werebetter at it, would I be even
more inclined?
Daniel (17:16):
I agree.
Well, I mean, I'm definitelynot going to be a person to say
like, let's not grow the gamethrough this, through esports,
like that.
It's just my own personalenthusiasm for it, you know, is
lesser than if you told me like,hey, classical tournaments are
blowing up and becoming morepopular you know it's even more
easy for me to get excited aboutone versus the other, but you
(17:38):
do it if you got invited, what Ido you get if you join team
liquid.
Omar (17:43):
Now you and magnus are teammates right?
Yeah, I'm not daniel lona isliquid, right, would you?
Daniel (17:51):
would you be down?
I'm not, I'm not a purist, Ijust I just, I have preferences.
Omar (17:57):
I'll take anybody's money if they're giving it away.
Right, yeah, exactly, exactly.
Daniel (18:00):
Exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah, no, I'm, I'm not, I'm not
like hardcore on my opinions.
Yeah, I just uh, I have mypreferences and I guess I would
just say, like, maybe I wouldlike to see a world where we try
to grow the game at alldirections and not just I got
(18:23):
you.
Yeah, but I am for finding newways to do that.
You know like we've talked, Ithink, a couple of times on this
show about how much we bothlike the idea of Pogchamps and
we need more things like that.
So I mean that's, that's ashorter, you shorter, you know
that's.
I mean it's a faster timecontrol.
Omar (18:38):
I hear what you're saying, though Not at the expense of
classical chess.
Like.
I don't want classical chess tonot have a space.
I don't want it to be lost inthe shuffle of like.
Don't grow the game at theexpense of what made the game
beautiful to begin with.
And I hear you 100% on thatRight, right, like, let's.
Daniel (18:57):
let's still try to grow classical tournaments.
You know, and and you know,speak to the.
You know the awesomeness ofclassical chess.
It does.
I don't, yeah, I don't feellike it has to be one or the
other, but I guess that would be.
My only concern is if we justtry to grow the game only on
super fast time controls andonly online.
Yeah, agreed, yeah, so anyway,yeah, that's.
(19:17):
That's my long answer to thatquestion.
Omar (19:19):
All right, uh, duman, this has been fantastic.
Yeah, I hate that you're goingto take your show back from me
after we're done with this, butI want to throw some some rapid
fire questions at you.
Daniel (19:34):
The ones I asked my guests.
Omar (19:36):
Yeah, exactly yeah, the the now one.
Yeah, exactly yeah, Now onethat I got here.
We literally just talked about,which is, like you've already
answered, what your favoritetime controller is, so I'm going
to take that one out of the mix.
Daniel (19:47):
Okay, Are you specific about that one?
Omar (19:48):
though.
Oh, please, please, Absolutelyso yeah definitely it's
classical but 90-30.
Daniel (19:53):
That's like Really Apex chess for me personally.
Omar (20:03):
I'll do that.
For me is yeah, 90, 30 is myabsolute favorite way to play
the game okay, so that'sincrement 30 not delay, not
playing, oh delays.
The delay is is blasphemous.
What's wrong with?
Daniel (20:12):
delays.
Delay just hurts me well,because it makes it the game
harder for me.
Omar (20:16):
So I like it, it's.
It's kind of the same thing youget the, you get the seconds.
Daniel (20:21):
No, no, you still get them but I can't, I can't I
can't build, so it's just, it'sjust like clock ticks, but I
can't yeah that's hysterical.
Omar (20:32):
Yeah, I need to see the 30 on my clock.
I need to see it add to my time.
Daniel (20:37):
I got you yeah, I can build a bigger thing, a
stockpile of time that way, yeah, whereas, like, if I'm five
seconds into the delay and Imove.
Omar (20:47):
I don't get the other 25.
Yeah, you don't get the other25.
Daniel (20:49):
Yeah.
Omar (20:50):
You just move, and then they just, you know their clock
starts.
Daniel (20:54):
I don't like things that make the game, for me, than it
already is, more than fair.
More than fair, okay.
Omar (21:02):
All right, so let me start throwing some of these at you.
Daniel (21:05):
Man, sure Knights or bishops, bishops all the way,
really All the way.
Omar (21:11):
Okay, why?
Daniel (21:13):
So, yeah, I got a specific reason for that.
People like knights becausethey're tricky, right, I mean,
at least at our level.
People like them because theycan be.
Yeah, but it's a double-edgedsword.
It's harder for me, too, to tolike plan with and find its
optimal move and see it in onesecond or things like that.
You know.
So like it messes with me tooas a player, messes with my
(21:35):
opponent just as much as itmesses with me, whereas bishops
I just it's clean, like I knowthey don't surprise me as much,
I know what I'm doing with themand the bishop pair is just
lethal.
Omar (21:45):
So Very, very true.
Yeah, does this extend to areyou bishops, even in a closed
position?
Oh well if I have a shot toopen it up.
Daniel (22:01):
I'm going it up.
I'm gonna try to open it up soyour bishops, regardless.
Omar (22:03):
Yeah, yeah, okay, I'm gonna try to open that up.
Daniel (22:04):
Yeah, okay, no, I like it.
I like it.
I thought you.
I thought you might pivot onthat, but you're like no, no,
closed or open, I want I wantbishops, I respect it I'm gonna
have to use that with my guestsin the future if they pick
bishops, yeah, like knights,terrify me the.
Omar (22:20):
To me it depends Just the fact that I even asked you if
it's closed.
That's how I would answer that.
Knights terrify me, but I wantthem.
I will target Bishops.
I sacrifice them so much thatit's I almost kind of answer my
own question.
Yeah, I'll sack a bishop fornothing, just to do it, just to
(22:42):
open a position up.
Daniel (22:43):
But I'm very much that guy I'm very much crazy with
mine, but that's a reason tolike bishops, right, it's the
Greek dist.
That's a fair point.
Yeah, it could be the Greekdist, yeah, yeah no, oh, you
know what You're right.
Omar (22:56):
All right, I'm over there with you.
Daniel (22:57):
I'm team bishops.
You know what?
I Team bishops.
Omar (22:59):
yeah, yeah, All right.
So what's your favorite openingto play as White Evans Gambit?
I?
Daniel (23:05):
think I knew that.
You'll see, I'm a Gambit person.
Omar (23:08):
I remember when you started learning that, if I
remember correctly, Like that'swithin the last three years,
that's been your opening.
Daniel (23:18):
It has, yeah, for years now.
Omar (23:20):
Yeah, all right, I think I already know the answer to my
next one.
What's your favorite openingplay as black?
I think I know that.
Daniel (23:26):
Yeah.
So I'm going to split this intotwo because I forget which GM
it was.
I had a GM answer it this wayand I was like, oh, that's good,
Maybe I should do it.
But they said they answered itboth as against one D4 and
against one.
Omar (23:40):
E4.
Yes, yes, yes, okay, okay.
So it gives you a shot.
Yeah, E4, d4.
Or let me throw another wrinkleat you if they open with a
knight.
Daniel (23:54):
Oh well then I'm just mad.
That's fair.
I know that's like a solid move, but I don't care.
Omar (24:00):
Listen, I don't know that there's a better response than
the one you gave.
It's so noncommittal.
I was angry.
Yeah Right, I was angry.
Now that you've done that,commit to an opening.
Don't be afraid, put a pawn inthe center.
Stop this.
Put a pawn in the center, pickyour pawn it's.
D or C?
We all know that which of thosethree pawns.
Daniel (24:18):
Are you moving?
Omar (24:19):
Come on, let's not beat around the bush More than fair.
Daniel (24:22):
Yeah.
Omar (24:23):
I don't like teasing you.
All right, E4.
One E4.
What are you doing?
Daniel (24:28):
Okay, sicilian Sveshnikov, really, yep, yep, no
more French.
No, french has been gone fora,while what fresh hell is this,
sir?
Omar (24:42):
What is this?
What blasphemy?
Are you saying no, french?
Daniel (24:46):
I still like the French.
Omar (24:49):
Mind you.
Daniel (24:49):
I get excited when people online say they show some
love for it.
I'm all there for that.
I still like the French.
It served me well enough.
Omar (24:58):
It served you better than well.
It served me well enough.
I know firsthand.
That's right we played.
Daniel (25:02):
Yeah, I know firsthand how well it served you.
Yes, yeah, I remember like itwas like move nine or something
and you said I don't like any ofthis.
Omar (25:10):
Yeah, yeah, I was like I don't appreciate anything that
you're doing.
Yeah, I don't like this.
Daniel (25:14):
Yeah, it's Sveshnikov.
Andres told me you know you'regoing to learn what you need to
learn if you play the Sicilianversus the French.
He's not wrong yeah.
Omar (25:26):
I abandoned it and I came back to the Sicilian, because it
forces you to grow in ways thatyou don't want to.
Daniel (25:35):
Yeah, yeah no it's super Okay.
Omar (25:37):
So that's for Z4.
What about D4?
What do you serve?
Daniel (25:41):
up D4.
Took me a long time to find theright thing.
Omar (25:45):
You are in good company.
Everyone hates to see it.
I think I hate that more than Ihate the night opening.
Daniel (25:52):
Yeah, D4 is just like why?
Omar (25:55):
Why do you hate us?
Why do you hate us both?
Yeah, right, exactly.
Daniel (25:57):
Exactly, exactly.
Yeah, like I thought, we wantedto play an enjoyable game.
Omar (26:02):
Yeah, enjoyable game.
And then you're playing thisand you play D4.
That's just.
Come on, we're club players.
I'm not a positional.
Come on, I can't be apositional player as a club
player.
Yeah.
Daniel (26:14):
So the Albin?
Omar (26:14):
counter gambit.
Daniel (26:15):
So yeah, so D4, d5, they play C4, which is like the
Queen's Gambit opening typically, and then they play E5, sacking
the pawn, if they want to.
Omar (26:27):
Nice, nice.
So you're like all right, I seewhat you're doing and I'm going
to open it up anyway.
Daniel (26:31):
Yep, you open it up.
Yeah, see, it goes back to thatBishop thing.
There's a consistency in myanswer here.
Omar (26:40):
Yeah, answer, yeah, I like that.
Daniel (26:41):
I like that because you're gonna like they still
want to play positionally, butyou're like too bad.
Yeah, no, we're not doing anyof that.
Yeah, you should have played e4, right?
Yeah, it would have been a loteasier for you, it'd be a lot
easier for both of us.
Omar (26:49):
But no, you did that, and so now, now it's just chess,
right?
Yeah, exactly, yeah, love it.
Daniel (26:54):
So albin against uh, albin counter against Alvin,
countercambit against D4, andthen Sicilian against N4.
Omar (27:02):
Now, are you just, if you get somebody who is just I'm
going to Fianchetto everything,I'm going to Hypermodern, I'm
going to do that Do you justpause in the center, or you do?
Daniel (27:14):
you have anything Okay?
Omar (27:15):
And then you kind of just work it from there.
Daniel (27:17):
Yeah, basically, yeah, I don't have a lot of prep
against the Finke kind ofopenings.
Omar (27:22):
I don't know that you need it.
I think it's just more annoyingto me than anything else
because I don't know whatthey're going to do.
You know, and I play a ton ofBlitz so I see quite a bit of
hyper-modern openings, you know.
So you know, it's just that'swhy I'm just irritated by it.
But it's effective, I'll givethem that.
Daniel (27:38):
It is.
I know I console myself whenthey do that.
I'm like oh, come on, we'reclub players and you're going to
act like you understandhyper-modern opening theory and
then, they proceed to beat me.
Omar (27:51):
I love when I can punish it, though I do.
I do.
It's just you have to.
I find that you have to.
You can get out of the openingbut you have to.
You can get out of the opening,but you have to be able to think
during the middle game and thatwhat they're doing is they're
playing things to get you toblunder.
But if you don't, then theytypically run out of gas and
then it's a matter of if we getto an end game, then it's.
(28:11):
I find that most of thoseplayers who do that have not
prepped for end game trainingand it's a like it's.
I will say, say this it'seither, or with me, I prep for
it, but I mess them up a lot,you know.
So it's a, but it's verysatisfying when you get them all
right.
So, in one word, man, how wouldyou describe your playing style
(28:33):
?
Daniel (28:33):
you know it's funny, I I started to ask this is a newer
question that I started askingmy guests and I don't like it.
But then it's also like when Ihave to answer it myself can you
answer it?
Omar (28:43):
Can you do?
Can you come down to one word?
Yeah, right, and I actuallywant to hear this.
I'm curious to know whereyou're, where you're going to
land on this.
Daniel (28:51):
Okay, so this maybe isn't a typical word to describe
someone's style, but I'm goingwith thorough, thorough, now
especially when we're talking ina classical game.
Yeah, I mean it is both mystrength and my weakness,
because it gets me into timetrouble.
I'm a little too thorough, morethan I need to be.
But it's also a strengthbecause it's where I can.
If I can get an advantage bythe middle game, I often win the
(29:14):
game.
If I have to go into an endgame, I'm usually in time
trouble and the person beats mebecause I'm blundering, Not true
.
But my thoroughness, like, yeah, I consider more candidate
moves, I think, than average atmy level.
I calculate deeper into linesthan is common at my level and
that's what I love about chess.
I love being able to exploreall of that and that, I believe,
(29:36):
gives me an edge over myopponents, provided I can get
that edge by the middle.
Omar (29:41):
Yeah, provided you have.
You have the time that I'm timetrouble.
Daniel (29:45):
Yeah, I have time trouble issues, so that's a
strength and a weakness, but Ithink it accurately described.
I'm very thorough, like I wantto be.
I check all my, all my bases,especially after we're out of
books.
Um, yeah, very thorough in howI put it.
Omar (29:56):
Yeah not sure who's your favorite chess streamer or
YouTuber?
Daniel (30:01):
I'm probably not going to go with one of the big
celebrity names that we allthink of.
I'm going to go with AndresToth, and I'll tell you why.
Omar (30:09):
Solid.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I should behe should be on the level of
everybody that you're talkingabout.
Daniel (30:15):
Yeah, he absolutely deserves to be.
Absolutely deserves to be.
He deserves to be a hundredtimes bigger in terms of like,
following numbers.
Yeah, because I think she hasmy favorite balance between the
quality improvement advice whilealso being interesting and
entertaining and funny.
Yeah, because it's usually morejust.
I think a lot of people leantowards one more than the other,
(30:38):
like it's either like, veryjust, educational, it's very
helpful, but it's not.
Omar (30:43):
You know, it's not gonna be loud, yeah, yeah, or it's
just like really funny andentertaining, but it's.
Daniel (30:48):
You're not gonna get any better at chess and I just
think that he's just strikessuch a good, perfect balance
between the two, so that makeshim my favorite and just a good
dude on top of that veryaccessible.
It's just just a he's.
Omar (30:59):
He's the one person.
Coach toth is the one person II can think of that absolutely
obliterated me.
When I talk with him in termsof like going over my games and
the whole time I'm just laughing.
You know, he's like, this iswhy you're terrible, you know,
and I'm like thank you, you know, thank you, coach, he's, yeah,
he's awesome.
Daniel (31:19):
I remember one of those and he had one of the funniest
analogies ever, and this is notthis isn't I make many worse
mistakes, but the way hedescribed one of the things, one
of your moves that he didn'tlike, it was just the way he
described it was hilarious.
He said that you were bringinga frying pan to a nuclear war as
your weapon.
The frying pan is your weaponin a nuclear war.
(31:39):
And I I was just, I could notstop.
I don't think I learned.
I listened, I heard anythingyou said after that for like the
next minute I was just laughingso much.
Omar (31:46):
Exactly, exactly.
That's what I'm talking about.
Daniel (31:49):
Yes, he will make his point in the most hilarious way.
You can't even be mad, You'rejust like you're right to
critique you to hear whatamazing analogy he's going to
come up with.
Omar (32:02):
And what I think is like that's off the hip.
Daniel (32:04):
That's just him off the cuff, he's not planning that,
that's just something that stuffjust comes to him.
That was just natural, that'sjust how he felt about Moose.
Omar (32:15):
Listen, man, it might be an iron skillet, it may not be,
terrible right, I might havethat, you don't know.
Daniel (32:22):
Right, exactly, it's a stronger pan than you think.
It's a stronger pan than youthink you don't know.
My life, right, right, yeah.
And you burst out laughing too.
You can't be mad at thecritique when it's that funny.
No, you can't be mad, you justhave to take the L, and it's
that funny.
Omar (32:39):
No, you can't be mad, you just have to take the L.
You just have to take it andjust say you know what?
That's well played, sir.
Daniel (32:43):
Right.
And then, when it comes from anIM, how can you disagree?
Omar (32:45):
anyway, you can't, you just take it and you just laugh
and you keep it moving.
Daniel (32:49):
That's really all you can do, but it speaks to how
good he is Absolutely.
Yeah, he's one of the funniestout there.
Omar (32:59):
No, without question, without doubt, yeah.
Daniel (33:01):
Who's your favorite player of all time?
This is easy for me.
It's always interesting to mehow, like I would say, at least
half of my guests struggle toanswer this question, but not
for me.
For me this is pretty easy.
So it's Bobby Fischer, and Iknow there's, like always, the
asterisk attached to him becauseyou know the personal qualities
and all that right right.
But as a player and I think Ithink you might relate to this,
(33:22):
omar, because when it's yourfirst, your first favorite, it's
hard for someone to stop beingyour ever.
stop being your first favoriteyeah you know, back in the 90s
watching the movie searching forbobby fisher, that movie
created such an awesome mystiqueto him and, like he was the
first world champion that I wasaware of, just like how you said
, magnus yeah, like the firstthat you get to know.
Omar (33:43):
You can't undo that you can't undo that right, it's just
hard, like I know.
Daniel (33:47):
I know there's issues later that I learned about, but
but as a player, just purely asa chess player phenomenal.
And back to this underdog thingthis I'm gonna tie this in.
I love when I get a chance totie something in.
Yeah, I love underdogs.
And he was like the ultimateunderdog Poor kid from Brooklyn
takes on and defeats the entireSoviet chess empire.
(34:08):
I mean, it's David and Goliath,yeah, and I'm a sucker for that
kind of story.
Omar (34:13):
You can't be mad at it, yeah.
Daniel (34:15):
You know, you could argue who's a better player and
all that kind of thing, andthat'll be debated for all time.
I just don't think there's abetter story than no david and
goliath.
You know, it's just.
It's incredible and that's whyI also put him as my favorite.
It's just.
I don't know if anyone had oddsstacked higher against them to
claim the crown than he did.
(34:36):
I mean, he had no resourcescompared to all this.
You know, all the great chess,the great Russian chess players,
and to just do that some comingfrom almost nothing, is one of
the most inspiring stories.
So he'll always be my favoritefor that reason.
Omar (34:48):
Love it, Absolutely love it, All right.
So he may be the answer to thisone.
If you could play, all right,I'm going to throw.
You know, living or not, youknow all time if you could play
any of the top players in theworld at any time in the
timeline, who would it be?
Daniel (35:05):
Oh, that yeah, I mean, if we go anybody, it's going to
be the same answer.
Omar (35:09):
It's going to be Fisher.
Daniel (35:10):
Yeah, but if we went living, yeah, if we went living.
Yeah, if we went living, Imight go with Hikaru.
Really I think I'll go withHikaru.
Hikaru, like we're talkingabout firsts again.
I think Hikaru was the firstfor me, like in the modern era,
the more recently, like in thepast, I guess five years like
the first great player of themodern era that I really got to
(35:32):
know.
There's like almost no oneeasier to watch than him.
Like he's always out thereplaying, always streaming.
I think he was the first personwhere I saw the genius in
action.
You know, of course everyone'sseen like these videos of him
where he calculates, puts 80arrows on the board, and there
was just that mystique to him ofjust like, oh my god, like how
does this guy do this?
How does he do this?
You know, it's just I had neverseen someone for whom chess was
(35:56):
easier than for karu, and Ijust love that when, when
someone's like this game is easyto me, like obviously we do
these next 12 moves, I can'thelp but admire the hell out of
that you know, so yeah, sothat's Hikaru because that's
like my first sort of modern erayeah, understood all right now.
Omar (36:14):
Would this be the same answer for this, like if you
could hang out with any of theany chess celebrity for an
evening?
Daniel (36:19):
we may have touched on that, but I'm curious to know,
like if you got a differentanswer for who that might be
yeah, I mean, I think I answeredjennifer, but let me, since
we're asking the question again,let me, let me give another
answer.
Kisparov, really, yeah, okaybecause I think when I think of
like hanging out for an evening,I think of just someone with an
interesting personality on topof what they've done in chess,
(36:41):
yeah, and I mean I just feellike I listen to him talk
forever.
He is just one of those peoplethat's so engaging.
Omar (36:47):
Godfather man.
Yeah, that's, yeah, that's whohe is.
Daniel (36:51):
Right, I mean, he's such a dynamic personality, yeah,
and of course, now you'rehanging out with a living legend
on top of it yeah, so you putthe two together.
I'm gonna go with kasparov.
Love it yeah yeah.
Omar (37:04):
I'm curious to know if he said to you well, you know
you're hanging out with kasparov, and he says, daniel, what's
your, what's your chess vice?
What would you tell him, andwould your answer be the same if
you were talking to somebodyelse?
Daniel (37:19):
yeah, it'd probably be the same, I don't be, the same.
I can't lie to the legend.
I don't want that on myconscience.
Omar (37:26):
I can't mar the experience with that.
Daniel (37:27):
I had a great time except I lied to him once, so my
answer to that question, though, would probably be too much
opening setting.
Omar (37:39):
But it's weird.
Yeah, it's weird because Idefend openings why is that bad?
Daniel (37:43):
that's a good question and that's debatable.
Whether it's bad because itdoesn't help you improve after a
certain point, right, like tosome degree it does, but then
like, if you keep doing it likeyou get diminishing returns is
the idea, but that's aninteresting point though,
because maybe, just maybe, weshould just be doing what we
want to do in chess.
There's that point too, but Ithink if you want to label it a
(38:03):
vice, it's probably that.
I mean, if you wanted to namesomething that I do, it's
probably that, because Idefinitely do it more than
people advocate.
But I also kind of don't carebecause I like it.
There it is.
That's my answer.
Yeah, if someone said Dan,you're spending too much time on
openings, I would say yep, Iknow, but I like it.
Omar (38:22):
You know it's funny.
I have a similar vice.
It's not openings, but it'sbuying courses on openings.
Daniel (38:30):
Ooh, that's similar, that is yeah that is.
Omar (38:34):
You know, that is my vice.
Like cause, I'm always lookingfor the silver bullet.
Well, if I learn this, thenI'll know this, and then I'll be
able to win all the games, andthen nobody will play any of the
lines from the course that Ijust started studying.
If you could just upload it toyour brain, you'd be yeah,
exactly.
It works better for white,because you can kind of dictate
(38:55):
a little bit.
You know, I've had the mostsuccess with that, with the
Bishops opening.
You know, but I've had the mostsuccess with that, with the
other bishops opening in termsof studying that and getting
some of the main lines down.
It really helped me.
I didn't realize how wrong Iwas playing it for so long and
then all of a sudden I'm like Igot this course, Maybe I should
look at it.
And then you start playingwhat's in there, you go oh, I'm
(39:17):
winning now.
Imagine that it kind of helpsto study the thing you paid for
you know on that so, but don'task me how many courses I have,
because I have all of them well,you forgot.
Daniel (39:29):
You forgot to mention the most, the strongest, most
indefensible argument you havefor getting them.
Omar (39:33):
I did that way, you have it that way, yeah, that way, I
have it, that way you haveabsolutely yeah, yeah.
That is what can anyone say tothat I have run that into the
ground so much that people thinkthat I came up with it.
I'm like no, no, no, no.
That is that was gifted to meby Daniel Lona Stops people in
their tracks.
Daniel (39:51):
right yeah, they're like man.
Omar (39:52):
Cause, here's the thing, Cause they're like that's wow,
that is true, I wouldn't have it, it's true, yeah, now you do
have it if you need it.
Daniel (39:58):
So yeah, all right.
Omar (40:00):
So I think I know the answer to this one.
I'm going to ask you anyway,like what is your favorite way
to study or work on your chess?
I think I know this, though,but I'm curious to see if it's
what I'm thinking it is.
Daniel (40:12):
Okay, there's two parts to this.
Omar (40:14):
Okay.
Daniel (40:14):
First part studying an annotated game book.
Going through an annotated gameokay and then second doing it
over the board with my, my nicewooden chess set okay, I had the
second part.
That that was yeah when you putthose two things together.
That's my favorite way.
It's like it's just so relaxingto me.
Yeah, chess isn't oftenrelaxing no, no, it is not no,
(40:36):
it's many great things, but it'snot relaxing, it's not, yeah,
yeah but when you yeah, like youjust get like a nice beverage
to go with it, it's peaceful.
Maybe mid-evening take out theset, yeah, you know, go through
a game and just just watchsomebody else's genius and try
to understand it.
Honestly, it's like peak chessfor me, peak chess experience
(40:57):
all right.
Omar (40:58):
So I'm gonna ask you one more, and you already know where
it's coming you know, and I'mterrible.
I'm kind of nervous about thisbecause I know what I said when
you asked this to me and I feellike I might pay for what I said
to you on this.
If a chess genie existed andcould grant you any one chess
(41:20):
wish, what would you wish for?
Daniel (41:23):
Being on the receiving end of that for the first time.
Yeah, the hardest part of thatis, I think, picking, just
picking one.
And now I understand why JuliaRios, when she was on the show,
said wait, don't I get three,cause it's.
It is very hard to narrow itdown to one.
But I'm not going to go with animprovement answer.
Those are great, but I'm notgoing to go with improvement.
(41:44):
I'm going to go with somethingbigger than that for the game.
How about growing the game?
It's basically going to be that.
So I would love for chess.
My wish is for chess to becomeas popular and mainstream
throughout the world as, say,any of the biggest sports.
I would just love it to justhave that level of participation
(42:07):
, fame, respect, excitement.
It feels a little strange to saylike everybody plays chess,
like I feel like not everybodylikes the same thing, but I just
want it to be huge, as huge asany other sport out there,
because it deserves to be, ashuge as any other sport out
there.
Because it deserves to be,because we love this game.
Obviously you, me and everyonelistening feels it's worthy to
(42:28):
be on that same level and we'rejust trying to get it there.
So I would love if we couldjust, you know, fast forward
time, boom, we're there.
Chess is huge to the off-world.
I would agree with you.
That's my wish.
Omar (42:40):
That's a good wish, that's an excellent wish.
Daniel (42:44):
A small part is.
I mean, this show is trying toplay a small part in that we're
trying to grow the game throughthe show.
We all have our different waysof doing that, whether it's like
teaching a family member orwhatever the case may be.
The show is an effort to get usthere.
Tiny effort in that big picture, but yeah.
Omar (43:04):
No, that's a wonderful thing.
What's funny, man?
You made me think of this.
The appeal for chess for mewhen I was first getting started
four years ago was that it feltlike it was one of the few
things left, that from a sportsperspective.
That, mind you, this is all prescandals and cheating and all
(43:25):
those things, but if you takethat out.
Of it and you say let's just sayeverybody's being above board.
It's one of the few things leftthat there's you can
demonstrate.
It's.
It's skill-based.
You, you're either better thanyour opponent, or they're better
than you, or you're equal.
And there are no otherparameters, there are no other
(43:47):
factors.
It's you study, they study,let's see who knows what, either
through memory or throughtactics or through oh, I didn't
see that.
And the thing I love most aboutit is even after you, you know,
have battled over the board,the person that becomes your
(44:07):
that is, your opponent becomesyour friend.
You only don't root for themduring, whatever the time
control is for that match.
You're rooting for them beforeand you're definitely rooting
for them after, just not during.
And that's the beauty of it,man, your opponents become your
friends.
Jiu-jitsu is very similar.
You're a martial artist, so youknow exactly what.
(44:27):
I'm talking about Like thepeople you compete against
become your friends and you wantthe best for them, except
versus you.
And even if they do wellagainst you.
You're like wow, you werereally good today on this.
Daniel (44:40):
Yeah.
Omar (44:43):
It's amazing.
To that end, I would love tosee the game grow as you
described, become the mostpopular game, but I would love
to see an addition to that man,if anybody who had interest had
the opportunity to become aprofessional player.
And that to me was sort of theappeal.
I'm like, wow, if I just getgood enough, I can actually
(45:03):
challenge and play the topplayers in the world.
It's just a matter of me.
I can do that sitting right inmy house and improve, and if I'm
good enough I'll get thoseopportunities.
Daniel (45:14):
There are very few things like I can't go into the
NFL?
I'll never be good enough.
You got to be born right to beable to do this With chess.
Omar (45:24):
You just have to study.
Now, there's some naturalability that you have to have,
but if you train it, you canbecome good enough at chess at
really any point, and that, tome, is one of the most beautiful
parts of the game is that ittruly is accessible to everybody
, if we act right.
Daniel (45:44):
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
Omar (45:45):
If you act, if you're just a kind person, the game's
accessible and it's beautifuland it teaches you so much about
life, which is why I don'tunderstand why there's so much
gatekeeping around.
It kind of blows my mind, yeah,but I would love to see your
wish come true.
Daniel (46:01):
I really would, and I hope it does yeah, you brought
up a lot of great points.
On mine, we probably must havea whole episode, just on that
one topic, right, yeah but oneof the things that I do love
about it that you hit on is anytwo people can step up to the
board and play each other, andit's not wrong, it's not weird,
right.
Like you don't want likea-year-old prime specimen dude
(46:24):
boxing a little kid, right?
Like we can't share boxing thatway or something like that.
Or you know, there's like othersports where it's just like the
disparity is too much.
This isn't right you know Rightright, but with chess it's never
wrong for any two people tostep up to the board and play
each other, and I think that'swhat gives it one of its great
features.
It's so accessible to everybody.
Everybody comes here.
(46:46):
It doesn't matter age, gender,race, background, anything it's
all irrelevant.
We can all come together andplay this board and play chess
together.
It's just such a beautifulthing.
Omar (46:56):
It brings people together in ways that a lot of other
things cannot it's one of thefew things left, man, that it
has the unique distinction ofbeing ice cream and pizza.
Like we don't argue about thegreatness of chess, we argued
the semantics of chess.
What time control is best?
Daniel (47:14):
What's your favorite opening?
Omar (47:15):
What's this?
It's those things.
And again, if women were treatedbetter then it would be perfect
, but again, but we're workingon that and we're going to
continue to work on that.
I mean, we're going to continueto be intentional.
We got guys like you who areamazing, who are, who are
focused on that.
But, that withstanding, it'sone of the few things we have
left that unites everyone in theworld.
(47:37):
I've met so many cool peoplebecause of chess all over the
world and I wouldn't you knowagain, I wouldn't trade it for
anything and I I to like to yourpoint, man, I wish that
everybody could see that.
I wish everybody couldexperience that.
It's a gift and it it teachesyou, not just about the game,
(47:58):
but chess.
Chess will teach.
That's why it's, compared toeverything, it teaches you life
lessons, right they're, they'rejust they're in there.
And, and you know, I just uh, Ihope that we can.
You know, we can grow the game.
I really do.
Daniel (48:12):
Yeah.
Omar (48:13):
Yeah.
Daniel (48:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I mean, I think, I thinkyou are Omar, like I think what
you do.
Omar (48:20):
I mean, I think you are Omar.
I'm trying, man, I think you do, you do.
Daniel (48:22):
I mean we all do it in different ways.
I mean you bring that welcomingspirit, you bring the passion,
you connect with people, you'reaccessible, you talk to
everybody who wants to talk toyou about chess and, yeah, we
all play our roles, so I thinkwe will.
I mean, the game is growing.
That's the good news.
Omar (48:39):
The game is growing.
Daniel (48:40):
We just wanted to grow even more, that's all.
Yeah, we want to grow even more, you know.
Omar (48:44):
I'm right there with you.
Well, dude, look, as much as Iwant to hang on to this, I feel
like.
I have to give you back.
I have to return it.
That which belonged to you wasalways yours.
Your show is amazing, man.
Just I want to tell you thankyou for the opportunity to get
to do this for you.
The just even being able to bea part of this has been one of
(49:08):
the great joys of you know mychess journey, uh, and your show
has definitely been a favoriteof mine and it's it's helped me,
like I said just to.
It's just so inspiring, it's sounique, and what you've created
, man, is a beautiful, beautifulthing.
And especially now, to heareven more about what some of
your motivations were and whatyou were intentional about, that
(49:29):
was so interesting.
What I love about it is youwere intentional but you weren't
on everybody's face about it,you just kind of did it, you
didn't ask for credit.
You just say, hey, I'm going todo this and I'm not going to
sound it from the rooftops, I'mjust going to let you see it to
a point where it's like it'sthere and it's like it just felt
normal, like I never thought oh, he's got another female guest
(49:51):
on this week.
It was, oh, my God, he'stalking to Jen Shahadi.
I can't wait to hear that thefact that you're doing it and
you're normalizing it is thebest way to make the game
accessible to more and morewomen.
Is that?
this is how it should be.
It's not.
Oh, we're doing this justbecause we have to.
(50:12):
We're doing this because it'sthe right thing to do and we're
not going to make it weird.
We're going to make it you know, we should have been doing this
and I love that man, I love it,and that's the way it's
supposed to be and you're you'rethe pioneer in in that regard.
So just kudos to you, you know,and just thank you.
Thank you for doing what you do.
Daniel (50:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you, Omar.
I appreciate the kind words.
Omar (50:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
Daniel (50:38):
Yeah, it was well.
Let me tell you it was an honorto have you host this episode.
Omar (50:41):
Thank you, man.
Daniel (50:42):
And take the interviewing, the oh yeah, just
the host seat and interviewerseat for this episode.
And yeah, I just thought Ithought it would be fun to
celebrate the third anniversaryof the show Crazy man.
Three years, Three years.
It's beautiful.
So, yeah, very proud of that,very excited about that, and
yeah, just, I'm going into thefourth year with an attitude
(51:03):
that the best is yet to come.
Omar (51:05):
It is, it absolutely is, man.
Like I said, I can't wait tosee what you're going to do just
in this video space.
I'm remembering when we talkedabout this and it was like man
you should stream.
You should do this, you shoulddo that, and you were like it's
coming, you know, we'll getthere, we'll do it yeah.
And so I'm excited that it'shere.
Man, I'm excited that it's here.
Daniel (51:25):
Yeah.
Omar (51:26):
Yeah.
Daniel (51:27):
Thank you, thank you, yeah, lots of good stuff.
Omar (51:34):
And yeah, thanks for being part of that debut too.
Daniel (51:37):
I gotta say that I feel a little sheepish because I'm
like hey, I've launched aYouTube channel.
Who's the first guest?
Me?
No man, you know, say what you,just me.
Omar (51:49):
I'm coming up in here to do it yeah, I'll say it for you.
Daniel (51:53):
This just worked out that way in terms of timing.
Omar (51:54):
But there you go no, man, but it's the right way to do it,
because if you're launchinglike it, what better way to
introduce?
The show to a new audience thanto say hey, this is what you
know, this is what we do, we did, here's what we're doing.
Daniel (52:13):
And that's a beautiful thing, right, that's a good
point.
Omar (52:14):
Yeah To to the people who will be new to it Hit like and
subscribe and notification belland all things you're supposed
to do on YouTube right, exactly,exactly Awesome.
Daniel (52:25):
Thanks for doing this.
Thank you, man.
Omar (52:27):
Thank you, my pleasure, man.
Daniel (52:32):
Thanks for listening.
This has been a production ofmy Business, adult Chess Academy
, and that has a website withthe same name.
If you want to look for it, youcan also find me being way too
active on Twitter by searchingmy username, lona underscore
chess See you next week.
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