February 11, 2025 • 63 mins
116 What a chess career! GM Boris Avrukh cracked the World Top 50 in 2005 and achieved a peak rating of 2668. He has coached the world’s best players like Fabiano Caruana, Vladimir Kramnik, and Wesley So. And he even got to be the last person to ever play the legendary Mikhail Tal.
Of course, Boris has had an exemplary competitive career representing Israel in six chess Olympiads and winning the World U12 Championship in 1990.
In addition to years of coaching the world’s best and club players alike, Boris has also written countless opening books and published five Chessable courses.
Boris and I talk at length about his course called “Resourceful Chess: Defense & Counterplay,” which will give you some excellent advice on how to play better defense.
We also discuss:
- Why it’s important to recognize key defensive patterns.
- His experience coaching Fabiano Caruana.
- Why Boris choose to highlight Hans Niemann for defensive play in his course (and whether he did so knowing he’d be controversial.)
More From GM Boris Avrukh
Daniel's Twitter account to follow for the giveaway.
How You Can Support the Pod:
Join this show’s Patreon called “Podcast Perks” and get benefits like:
- Submitting questions to guests
- A shout-out of your name on the pod
- Vote on future topics/guests
- Exclusive behind-the-scenes updates about the show
- DM me any month for a brief chat on chess or episodes
Click here to join the Patreon for The Chess Experience.
Or you can…
>>Support this pod by grabbing a chess.com membership which will help you improve your chess & defeat your enemies. A small portion will fund this pod - and every bit helps! Just click this link.
>> Neither? How about checking out Daniel's chess.com profile? Witness his countless, embarrassing blitz losses. He even accepts some friend requests. (Ad)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Daniel (00:05):
Hey, welcome to the chess experience On this show.
It's all about helping adultimprovers.
I want to make learning chesseasier for you to navigate and I
also want you to have a morefun experience along the way.
I'm your host, daniel Lona, afellow chess amateur.
Let's get to it.
(00:25):
This show is sponsored bychesscom, the world's largest
chess community.
Chesscom recently launched anew way to learn from your games
with a feature called insights.
If you visit chesscom slashinsights, you can get detailed
stats and analysis in any of thetime controls you've played and
across any time period.
What kind of things can youlearn?
(00:46):
Well, you can learn.
What time of day do you playyour best morning, afternoon or
night?
What part of the game are youstrongest or weakest?
Opening, middle game or endgame?
Are you making more or lessmistakes than opponents at your
level?
You can find out all this greatinfo and much more at chesscom
slash insights.
Welcome to this week's episode.
(01:13):
Today's guest has had anincredible career as a
competitor and an instructorGrandmaster Boris Avruk.
Boris was born and raised inKazakhstan.
Later he moved to Israel andfor some years now he has lived
in the United States.
In 2005, boris had a worldranking of 50, an extraordinary
feat, and it makes him one ofthe most accomplished players to
be on this show.
He's had a peak rating of 2668.
(01:35):
As for some of his competitiveachievements, boris was the
world under 12 champion in 1990.
He's represented Israel in theChess Olympiad six times,
champion in 1990.
He's represented Israel in thechess Olympiad six times.
And Boris has coachedincredible players like Fabiano
Caruana, vladimir Kramnik, borisGelfand and Wesley.
So Not only that, but Boris hashad a prolific career as a
(01:55):
chess instructor.
He's published many openingbooks his specialty and he's
published five chessable courses.
On that point, in this episode,boris and I talk at length about
his course called ResourcefulChess Defense and Counterplay.
Our discussion will give yousome excellent advice on how to
play better defense.
I'll also be doing a giveawayof that course this week on
(02:18):
Twitter.
Just follow my Twitter account,lona, underscore chess for
updates on that.
There's also a link in the's.
Great to have you here.
How are you today?
Boris (02:43):
Hello Daniel, I'm doing great and thanks for having me.
It's great to have you here.
How are you today, Hello Daniel, I'm doing great and thanks for
having me.
It's a pleasure.
Daniel (02:50):
Yeah, pleasure is all mine.
It's a real honor to have youon the show.
You have had such an impressivecompetitive career and career
as an educator for chessstudents, so I'm excited to talk
about both aspects of yourchess life, yeah, so thank you
very much for being here.
Boris (03:07):
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you for having me Lookingforward to our conversation.
Daniel (03:10):
Yeah, I'll just start with a little easy question here
.
What has been your week likethis week in chess?
Are you working on a newpublication of some kind, or
just your own practice, oranything like that?
Boris (03:22):
Well, as always, I call it a routine a lot of private
lessons, and I'm trying tosqueeze time to maybe having
some material published on mypersonal page and YouTube
channel, and I hope we will getto this as well.
And yeah that's more or less myregular week working on chess,
(03:47):
but you know, sometimes maybethere are some big projects, but
not right now.
Daniel (03:53):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
We'll definitely talk aboutyour site later in the interview
, for sure.
So, yeah, I just want to startwith the beginning of your own
chess life and journey.
For people who don't know, youwere born in Kazakhstan and
lived there most of your lifebefore age 18.
You lived there most of yourlife before 18.
Did you grow up in a chessfamily and, if so, is that what
(04:13):
got you into the game?
Boris (04:14):
Well, it's possible to say this my father was actually
a candidate master, which iskind of a pretty advanced title,
I would say.
He has even a very decentfeeder rating 2260, but he's
inactive for many years.
And the story how I came tochess I grew up in Kazakhstan, I
(04:38):
was born in Kazakhstan, butevery summer we were traveling
to my father's grandparents, toUkraine, to be precise, east
Ukraine, and while I was playingon the yard of our house well,
we actually lived in anapartment building in the city
(04:59):
center and you know, I wasplaying with friends soccer,
basketball, something like thatand there was always some
company group of peopleinvolving my grandpa who played
chess on the backyard.
So while I was playing allthese games, I was kind of like
(05:20):
stopping by and checking chessgame and nobody knew that.
Well, I didn't know how to playchess, but slowly I started to
understand this and at somepoint I came and suggested the
move and my grandpa was verysurprised.
He was very surprised.
He said, wow, like yousuggested the move, I didn't
know even that you play chess,so you know the rules.
(05:41):
And he immediately took me tomy father and said well, you
know, somehow it's happened.
I think I was seven years old ormaybe six years old, and this
is when it started, but you know, it was a culture like you
mentioned Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
It all basically was part ofSoviet Union until 1992.
Right, 92, right.
So, and um, in the family my mydad was candidate master, as I
(06:06):
mentioned uh, I think grandpahad like maybe second category,
so we had these categories, youknow.
And uh, well, also, grandma,grandma knew how to play chess
and uh, my aunt had like thirdcategory, something it was kind
of like inside the culture,right within the culture, in so,
so, like most of the peopleknew how to play chess.
And then it started.
(06:28):
I came back to Kazakhstan, theysent me to the special sports
section or chess section, and itstarted to unravel like slowly,
you know.
Daniel (06:39):
Was chess part of the school curriculum in your
schools?
No, no, okay so how did?
You like start practicingregularly.
Was that just in your schools?
No, no, okay.
So how did you start practicingregularly?
Was that just on your own?
You said you were part of aclub, though you said Well, they
sent me.
Boris (06:53):
You know, you had all the sections for every sport as
well as chess, art and so on,and so they sent me to chess
section.
But at the same time my dad wasa candidate master and we had a
big chess library.
So we started to work with mydad basically every day and well
, probably I was talented, youknow, and it's kind of like
(07:18):
worked out pretty well.
You know, I was getting allthese like categories.
You know it was starting withfourth category and then I
quickly progressed to, maybe,candidate master and it was
mainly my father.
So that's this.
This is where, like, most ofthe work had been done, like
once he was coming back from hiswork, I mean, we were sitting
(07:42):
and spending two, three hours,whether it's, you know, any
training, chess games of topplayers, basically covering all
the books, and yeah, that's howit's worked.
And you know, I changed somecoaches, but the main coach is
my dad.
(08:02):
So that's how it worked with me.
Daniel (08:07):
Yeah, that's fantastic.
Well, you said you startedgetting into the game around age
seven.
Yeah, but basically four yearslater you win the World Under 12
Championship in 1990.
That's a huge success.
What do you attribute to that?
Because that's a short amountof time to go from just getting
into the game to winningsomething like that.
What do you attribute to thatsuccess?
Boris (08:28):
Well, you know, in the beginning it's probably I had
some talent, definitely, and Iwork hard, so with my dad, like
every day, I was going to thesection, I think twice a week
and I work myself also.
So like I was probablyhard-working kid and yeah,
(08:49):
somehow, somehow the progresswas like pretty smooth.
And you know, I just wanted tomention I obviously qualified
from Kazakhstan.
It was not so difficult, butthen I played soviet union
championship under 12.
So this is where it was anamazing competition.
Uh, actually way, way strongerthan world championship itself,
(09:13):
because if I check now, uh, theplayers I played against and and
basically, uh, just the fieldof the tournament, it's they're
all grandmas.
Many of them maybe crossed 2700.
Even so, that was a kind of likemassive amount of talent there.
And you know, for example, Ishared first place with Sergei
(09:34):
Movsasan, who at some pointreached 2747 rating, I think was
maybe top five in the world.
I think it's around 2000 orsomething like this.
So that was the first game thatI won in this tournament and I
remember how everyone likepassed by and asked for results
and everyone was shocked that helost because he was already a
(09:54):
superstar.
Yes, and then it was my firsttrip abroad to USA yeah, that
was remarkable Currently 90minutes from my house.
Yeah, that was remarkableCurrently 90 minutes from my
house.
Daniel (10:05):
You're right.
Yeah, you mentioned that.
It's funny how things work outthat way.
Were you competing a lot priorto that event?
Prior to that, you know, WorldUnder 12 championship, Were you?
Boris (10:17):
competing a lot in Kazakhstan.
I think a decent amount ofcompetition.
It was not like nowadays thatyou can play every weekend.
So mostly there weretournaments of 9-11 rounds.
So you know, like normalschedule, maybe two tournaments
a month or something like that.
Daniel (10:34):
Yeah, and then another highlight of your chess journey
at this, roughly at that timefor you, about two years later,
after that championship that wereferenced that you won.
About two years later, afterthat championship that we
referenced that you won, youmentioned to me that you had the
remarkable experience where yougot to be the last person to
ever play against the greatMikhail Tal.
Can you talk about how thathappened?
Boris (10:52):
Yes, it was an amazing memory for me.
We had one person who was wecall him some kind of sponsor in
Moscow.
So I was spending a lot of timein Moscow back then where chess
was obviously very popular andthere were some pop coaches.
I was also attending a chessschool probably many people
(11:18):
familiar with the Botvinnikchess school, where Kramnik and
Kasparov basically attended.
But maybe second best schoolwas Petrosyan school with the
main coach, aleksandr Nikitin,who was Kasparov coach basically
, so his major coach, I wouldsay, who took him from maybe
(11:41):
candidate master level and allthe way to the title, world
championship title.
So he was the main coach, very,very strict coach, and it was a
great experience and most ofthe sessions is like four times
a year, maybe it was aroundMoscow, maybe suburbs, and well,
at some point I got to knowsome people.
So there was a sponsor, uh,kind of like, arranged some
(12:05):
tournaments that I couldparticipate in moscow and at
some point I qualified.
There was a very, very bigtournament where I qualified to
so-called pre-olympic blitz, uh,and I remember I, I, I got
first junior first place andthere was morozevich, for
instance, that somehow I washalf point ahead of him and I
(12:25):
got to play against a Russiannational team.
So this is the year whereactually, soviet Union separated
into 15 countries, you know.
So that was the last year ofSoviet Union and there was a
Russian team which was supposedto go to Olympiad 1992, I think,
in Philippines, manila and so Igot into this tournament.
(12:45):
Russian team which was supposedto go to Olympia in 1992, I
think, in the Philippines,manila, and so I got into this
tournament.
So there was one qualificationplace for junior.
So I played in this tournament.
It's eight chess players,including Kasparov, tal, smyslov
(13:05):
and then some, you know, normalsuper grandmaster like Belovsky
Barev.
So I actually drew againstKasparov during winning position
and Tal was playing there andactually there was a final Tal
against Kasparov.
Kasparov won, but still Talcame second in this tournament.
It was impressive, I lost bothgames.
So it was double round, doubleround Robin.
Yeah, so I lost to Tal, I wascrushed in both games.
So it was double round, doubleround Robin.
Yes, so I lost to Tal, I wascrushed in both games.
(13:30):
And well, I was supposed to goback to Kazakhstan from Moscow
to fly, and then suddenly thesame person came to me who I
mentioned was like a sponsor.
So he well, you know, weorganized your match with Tal,
so there is a possibility.
And well, we have the ticketsand in one week I should fly to
(13:50):
World Youth Championshipunder-14.
He said well, no worries, we'll, you know, we'll change the
tickets.
So I went to the hospital whereTal was located.
Even during this tournament.
He was already not in greatshape.
I have some photo like that Isent to you.
He was already not in greatshape.
I have some photo that I sentto you.
He was looking not so good.
Yeah, and yeah, we played amatch of I think how many games
(14:16):
it was Maybe 13 games.
I even won 8-5.
But he was definitely notplaying his 100%.
He was very relaxed.
He was smoking one cigaretteafter another I don't know how
many cigarettes it was duringthe match.
There were some people around,so he was chatting with them and
then once he was very long timeand it's not digital clocks,
(14:39):
right so he started to speed up.
The problem was that I wasyoung and very quick as well, so
this is where maybe I even hadadvantage, so somehow I won 8-5.
But it's more about experience,not the score.
I even had some games like Irestored some games.
So it was a lot of fun.
And then, after we finished thematch, he asked me what's your
(15:03):
future plans?
And I told him well, I'mplanning to go to World Youth
Championship in Germany in oneweek.
He said well, you know, I'llhave some events also in the
city and I'll stop by and chatwith you, and I was extremely
excited you know he was incelebrity status, of course,
(15:26):
back then in Russia, and I waslooking forward to it, and I
remember the very first day whenI landed in Germany there were
news that Tal died.
Daniel (15:35):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, that's anincredible experience that you
got to have with him.
That's a great story.
It's an extraordinary memory.
There you mentioned that youhad the chance to restore some
of those games.
Does that mean you rememberedsome of them?
Boris (15:48):
Yes, I have some notes somewhere, notes in my office,
so I was able at least someopening moves and maybe until
move 20 or something like that.
Daniel (16:04):
Yes, I have some of them .
Yeah, have you shared that?
Boris (16:06):
anywhere publicly.
Well, you know, not really.
That's a good question.
I never shared them.
Maybe I thought it's not fairbecause he didn't play full
strength.
Daniel (16:16):
Yeah.
Boris (16:16):
Smoking cigarette, one after another.
But yeah, there's something toconsider.
Daniel (16:21):
Right, right.
Well, later in your career, in1995, you moved to Israel and
from what I could tell aboutwhat's listed online of your
competitive career, it seems youcompeted professionally from
the late 90s through the 2000s.
That was maybe a peak periodfor you and in that time for
people who don't know you twicewon the Israeli chess
(16:42):
championship Correct Once in2000, the other time in 2008.
You represented Israel sixtimes in the chess Olympiad
during this period.
So yeah, that's a lot ofaccomplishments.
How would you describe thatperiod of your competitive life,
say from the late 90s throughthe 2000s, because it seems like
you were very activecompetitively then, yeah, that
was exactly.
Boris (17:00):
well, that was the time when I was really a professional
player.
Well, that was the time when Iwas really a professional player
.
So, first of all, I moved toIsrael thanks to the CEO of
chess club in the south part ofIsrael, bershago it's called,
actually, you know interestingfact, if you check well, the
(17:23):
city which has most of thegrandmasters compared to
population, I think it's numberone.
Some sources give it's numberone city and some sources give
the capital of Iceland,reykjavik, the number one.
But it was the best chess clubBack then they said best chess
(17:45):
club in Europe, obviously bestclub in Israel.
And so I got to know my coach.
So he actually connected me tothis club and the guy called us
and well invited.
So I felt it's a good idea tocontinue a professional career
like to, well, at least to pushfor professional chess career,
(18:05):
because in Kazakhstan back thenit was a little bit problematic,
although I have to admitnowadays it's probably one of
the best chess federation that Ihave some collaboration with
them, working with some studentsare absolutely amazing and they
have a great success, likefemale national team got second
(18:25):
place and it's growing andgrowing.
So but back then it was not thesame and we thought that's a
great opportunity.
And well, you know, I got tothe city and I remember in two
days I already played for theclub team in the israeli league.
So you know, every country,basically in europe, they have
(18:45):
leagues.
I I still like baffled why wedon't have in the us, with all
the resources and money in us,and we don't have a leagues
right where players can play yesand uh well played for the team
and I.
I got one coach assigned to meand there was a budget that I
(19:06):
could travel, so that's all whatI needed.
And so I worked hard, gotopportunity to travel to
European tournaments and, yes,it's worked well and very soon I
started to play for thenational team.
And you mentioned six Olympiads, but it's not only Olympiads,
there were also.
(19:26):
It's one year there is Olympiadand another year European team
championship, and in the middlesometimes we have world team
championship when you qualifylike some top six teams.
So there is a special systemand once it was actually in the
city in Israel, in the citywhere I lived, in Be'er Sheva.
Once it was actually in thecity in israel, in the city
where I lived, in besheva.
(19:47):
Once it was a world championshipand well, obviously, great
memories.
Uh, we got a second place in2008, second place in olympiad.
Uh, after armenia and I, Ithink we got maybe two second
places in the european teamchampionship, which is also was
very strong, obviously, with allthe top teams, and I think only
(20:11):
in Olympiads I got, I think,three individual medals, with
the most memorable one probablyfrom the very first Olympiad, of
course, in Russia Lista, whereI got first place, it's called
second reserve.
Fantastic memories from thisperiod, obviously, and a lot of
success in these teamcompetitions.
(20:33):
Unfortunately, nowadays it'snot any more chess power.
Daniel (20:39):
Israel, unfortunately.
Boris (20:40):
But back then we always fought for the medals.
Daniel (20:43):
Yeah, well, I mean, yeah , it's an amazing time period
there for you, with all that youaccomplished During your career
.
You've also coached severalchess greats, including Caruana,
kramnik, and even helpingGelfand against Anand in the
World Championship match.
All of it's just so amazingjust to say that out loud, and
we could probably spend anentire episode talking about
(21:05):
your experiences with theseamazing players.
For now, just talk about one.
Let's talk about FabianoCaruana.
How did your experience withhim begin?
Boris (21:11):
How did your experience with him begin?
Well, I think I was connectedby a referral from Boris Gelfand
, who had good connections witha Fabiano coach back then.
That was a Russian grandmasterwho lived in Hungary Chernin, I
don't remember his name, I thinkAlexander Chernin and he
connected me.
Well, there was a referral.
We had a conversation, Iremember, during one of the team
(21:36):
events european championshipand we agreed to work.
So the point was that fabianowas back then living in hungary,
in the capital, budapest, and Iwas living in israel, so there
was not such a big distance.
So I was coming to trainingsessions with him.
What year was was this?
It was, I think it started 2009.
(21:56):
Okay, and finished 2011, maybethe beginning of 2011.
And so I was traveling toBudapest, I think two, three
times.
Then, suddenly, at some point,we had agreement to have a
training session.
We communicated, but then hetold me well, his dad actually
was communicating with me and hetold well, this time please
(22:17):
come to Switzerland.
So he moved to Switzerland andall those years he was playing.
He had Italian federation,chess federation.
He was playing for a nationalteam of Italy and when he moved
to Switzerland it actuallyappeared to be very close to the
Italy, so that was Italian partof it, of Switzerland, so we
(22:39):
had a few sessions also inSwitzerland and also maybe the
most memorable experience that Iwas his coach during his summer
tournaments.
So there were two majortournaments, one in, uh, bill
bill bien, so that's atraditional tournament in
switzerland that I personallyplayed there 12 times, and
(23:02):
another one in amsterdam, uh,and that was, uh, the last
tournament.
What they call is generationtournament where, like, young
talented players played againstexperience, and I'm just
thinking about young talentedplayers.
Back then it was Wesley Sof,fabiano Carano, hikaru Nakamura
and David Howell, so nowadayswould be probably something like
(23:26):
27-50 average rating, and theyplayed against Gelfand Svidler,
peter Heine-Nielsen and, I think, van Velje, local grandmaster.
So that was a nice experiencein the Amsterdam center, like an
amazing organization, and itwas the very last event of this
tournament, generationtournament.
Daniel (23:49):
I see I'm kind of curious where Fabi was at that
point in his chess career,because obviously he had more
growth still yet to come from2009 onward.
Do you remember where he wasworld ranking or something like
that?
Around that time when youstarted working with him, he was
something within the range 2550to 2600.
Okay, Okay, I see yeah, andwhat did you work on with him?
(24:11):
I mean, were there specificareas that you spent more time
on with him?
Boris (24:14):
Yes, Obviously, like all this work with top guys, it's
usually dedicated to openings.
Okay so, but openings it meansalso middle game, transition to
middle game.
Obviously, during thetournaments when I travel with
him, it's opening preparation.
So that's the main focus.
All the rest they can do easilyby themselves and it's not a
(24:37):
problem, but they need somebody,and back then it was what is
important to understand.
The computers were not sostrong so you still could have
some kind of like human approachand sometimes computer changes
evaluation, and it was veryinteresting to work back then.
I mean, nowadays it's also, butit's a different story.
(24:59):
With such a powerful computersyeah.
Daniel (25:01):
Right?
Yeah, I'm wondering about that.
Does the increased ability andpower of engines these days does
that?
I mean the way you worked withhim in 2009,?
Do players at that level todaystill require opening coaches in
the same way now, given thestrength of engines?
Boris (25:18):
Oh, absolutely yes, they do have.
For instance, I probably forgotto mention, but since 2016, I
think, I have been working as acoach with the England national
team during all these big eventsOlympiad and European team
championship and so, yeah, theystill.
(25:39):
There is some room and it'sjust so much information.
You cannot, there is no waythat alone you can cover all the
theoretical developments.
And you know you also have somekind of like human factor where
you prepare some surprises,maybe objectively, not the first
line of computer, but uhsomething that from practical
(26:00):
point of view, it's very hard toreact, very hard to defend, uh,
some novelties, tricky ideas.
So that that's what mostlynowadays is happening preparing
some uh tricky line for one game.
I see, I see.
Daniel (26:15):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yes, yeah, that's incredible,and, like I said, you know, if
we had a multiple hours longinterview, I would talk about
all the other people that you'vehelped coach along the way too,
because it's incredible.
For now I'd like to shift todiscussing both the topic of
defense, as well as giving someinsights into your course on
that subject, that two-partcourse that you created for
(26:35):
Chessable, because I think thesubject isn't talked about a lot
, or at least not maybe enoughfor club players, and I think
it's, you know, there's a greatvalue to them.
For those who don't know, youhave this incredible two-part
course on Chessable calledResourceful Chess Defense and
Counterplay.
Let me start broadly.
What made you choose thatsubject to teach?
Boris (26:54):
So, first of all, that was the topic that I was in some
way passionate about, because Inoticed with my private
students that there is always astruggle.
You know, everyone likes toattack, everyone likes to play
with initiative, and suddenlyyou need to defend and somehow
the level drops.
The level drops significantlybecause I guess, like you know,
they are not in the mood alreadyto play.
(27:16):
You know, it's not thatexciting when you are not
attacking or you don't haveinitiative, and this is one, and
it's also very important frommarketing point of view.
You know, it's not so easy tofind topic for Chessable.
I have six courses, but at somepoint, when I started to offer
my ideas, well, the answer waswell, we already have three
(27:38):
courses on this, we already havefour courses on this.
So basically, openings werepretty much.
It was very hard to findsomething, let's say, in the
opening field like kind of likemy specialty in some sense, and
so I had this middle game topicsand before that well, not
exactly middle game I had thisRussian in-game technique course
(27:59):
and some grandmaster thinking,overall thinking, and then that
was an idea, because you know,it's with me, with my coaching
thoughts.
It's always there is something,some topic that I start to be
obsessed with, like every monthsomething happening, for example
(28:21):
.
Now I just realized it's agreat topic construction
transformation.
That may be not covered toomuch and I'm thinking a lot and
always emphasize this during myprivate lessons.
So back then it was defense andso I suggested this because,
well, working with my students,I prepared some material already
.
So some material was ready andI suggested and they accepted so
(28:44):
and it was great.
Daniel (28:46):
Yeah yeah, that's a fantastic topic.
Most of my audience are adultclub players, but there's still
a large range of skill withinthat group, so when would you
say rating wise?
It makes sense to startthinking about defense and
counterplay as something to workon.
Boris (29:07):
Well, in my video when I have presentation on Chessable,
I noticed I'm talking about 1600plus rating.
It's always very confusingnowadays because, well,
sometimes you have players.
Maybe they might not understandeverything, but they still
strive to become a strong player, so it might work for them as
(29:30):
well.
But I would say, objectivelyspeaking, maybe it's 1600 plus.
But yeah, the examples arepretty advanced of course, in
this course.
But the most important is Ialways say whatever I show it's
even mentioned to my studentswhatever I show, we have a
discussion and we discuss themoves.
It's the way of thinking, justkind of like to develop some
(29:54):
proper way of thinking, kind oflike find the patterns, how it
works and so on.
So that probably would be myanswer.
Daniel (30:02):
Yeah, and you bring up a point that I wanted to dive
into a little further, which isthe subject of patterns.
So, yeah, that's something Ididn't expect to see,
necessarily when looking throughyour course on defense, which
is that there are defensivepatterns to be familiar with.
You know, I think a lot of thetime we associate that with the
idea of patterns, with tactics,checkmates, things like that.
Yes, so can you talk about theimportance of recognizing
(30:25):
patterns for defense?
Boris (30:27):
Yeah, well, I'm a big believer of patterns recognition
.
By the way, there is a greatseries of middle game books
where they talk I think it'scalled improve your pattern
recognition.
I think there are two volumes,and they just talk about middle
game and positional ideas in themiddle game.
So, for example, yeah, andyou're absolutely right, daniel,
(30:50):
so that people usuallyassociate with this with tactics
, but I believe in the opening.
So well, I always tell mystudents well, you have opening
and, for instance, I share somefile and it's pretty advanced
and it's basically impossible tomemorize.
So try to memorize somepatterns.
What are the ideas, how we dealwith this bone structure, where
(31:13):
the pieces belong to.
So, and then, even in case youdon't remember exactly the line
20 moves, you still should beokay because you know how to
develop and you have in yourbrain, like you know, some kind
of like pattern recognition.
So the queen should go here.
So the same.
And I just realized you knowyou would be surprised even that
(31:35):
was actually approach ofDvoretsky, a famous coach from
Soviet Union that I was, youknow, blessed also to work with
him a little bit, and hementioned in his books, he's
mentioning that there are evenpatterns for calculation, you
know.
So basically everywhere, pawnstructure opening, so not only
(31:56):
tactics, middle game, so I'm abig believer of this concept in
chess.
So pattern recognitioneverywhere.
And so talking about defensivepatterns, right, so one of them,
let's say to muddy the waters.
Right, let's say you are losing.
You see the game goes likereally badly for you, so you are
losing.
You see the game goes likereally badly for you, so you
(32:16):
change the character of the game, you sacrifice, you create
imbalance.
Let's say you sacrifice queenfor two pieces and two pawns, or
one piece and rook, and onceyou create this imbalance, it
for your opponent it's a littlebit uncomfortable because
everyone would be like much morecomfortable just to convert
(32:40):
extra pawn with equal material,with normal balance.
Just everything is well known.
So that's one of the things, solike a fortress or pawn
sacrifice in order to maybeachieve some theoretical drawish
endgames like opposite colorbishops or rook endgames, or at
least to have chances to getthem.
(33:01):
So that's a few examples.
Daniel (33:04):
Yeah, no, that's fantastic.
Also, in your course, you havea method for deciding whether to
accept or decline a sacrificethrough a process of elimination
, and that was reallyfascinating to me.
I hadn't heard that before.
Of course, I'm at the clublevel as a player, so you know
there's still a lot I'm notfamiliar with, but it's just not
(33:25):
one of those things I've seendiscussed before.
So can you talk about that, theprocess of elimination for
determining whether to accept asacrifice?
Boris (33:33):
well, I I think it's a relates to precise calculation.
Well, first of all, don't trustyour opponent always, even if
he's much higher rated.
So, number one you calculate,uh, maybe he's bluffing, and uh,
and of course, as you mentioned, I think, the priority always
for active play.
(33:53):
So that's something thatrequires, like the opponent to
be precise.
Daniel (33:58):
I see, I see.
So one of the key factors thenwould be how active can you be?
Yeah, and how?
Boris (34:05):
challenging the position will be for your opponent right.
So not and not to take it forgranted that he's well, he
sacrificed.
That means he knows somethingand he checked everything and
always trying to push maybe tofind mistakes in his calculation
what he's planning to and maybethere are some holes in his
calculation.
Yeah, it's also elimination.
(34:25):
It's one of the calculationpatterns.
So sometimes, and it maybecomes together with the
comparison, it maybe intersectswith comparison.
So you know, you compare a fewlines.
Okay, here I don't accept, I'mpawned down.
Here I have lost position twopawns down and here maybe it's
(34:47):
double H.
Maybe it's dangerous for me,but at least it's for three
results.
So probably it will be worth toaccept the third option.
Daniel (34:55):
And then one of my favorite topics that you have is
on the subject of choosing apawn sacrifice as a defensive
play.
I love that idea and again, youknow it's just something I
don't see as much.
So can you talk about why aplayer would want to sack a pawn
for the purpose of defense?
Boris (35:12):
want to sack upon for the purpose of defense.
Yeah well, this is like theminimum sacrifice that you can
do, maybe to change thecharacter of the game.
So, as far as I remember, thereare basically two options.
One is when you try to getactive counterplay, so basically
also changing the character ofthe game you're defending.
(35:33):
And so here you havecounterplay and it's already not
as comfortable for youropponent to just to push forward
with it with a very comfortableadvantage.
So we go for counterplay.
And now a very important secondidea as I mentioned before, you
sacrifice the pawn with the ideato get some drawish endgames,
(35:56):
whether it's opposite color,bishops, rook endgames, maybe in
some cases queen endgames andfortress.
Of course fortresses likethat's also an option, but
fortresses might involve maybebigger sacrifices than the pawn,
yeah, but nowadays you can seepawn sacrifice in so many games
for initiative.
(36:16):
And, by the way, there is onebook that crossed my mind by
excellent book that I recommendto most of my students.
It's called Beyond the Materialby Croatian Grandmaster
Kolashevich, and I remember inthe foreword for the book one of
(36:47):
the first sentences.
He mentions that when he got tohis club and his pretty
advanced coach, the coach saidif you don't know how to
sacrifice the pawn, you are nota good chess player.
Yeah, so it's very interesting.
Daniel (36:53):
I guess it kind of relates maybe to Russian chess
schools or Croatian.
It's pretty close, I guess.
Yeah, there's one otherquestion I want to ask you about
the subject of defense.
Um, I didn't have this writtendown, but I think it's an
important one, which is, um, uh,the mental side of it, because
I think that and I would saythis, is that it can speak to
club players.
Anyway, it's true for clubplayers that, uh, in situations
where you go down material orthe position's bad for you, I
(37:17):
think mentally a lot of playerscan get pretty stressed, they
can lose their confidence inthose situations.
But I think, in my opinion, thatyour course and what it teaches
is at least a partial cure forthat, at least the mental side
of it, because if you have sometools in your toolbox to know
how to handle those situations,I don't think you're going to
let stress and lack ofconfidence affect you as much,
(37:38):
because you know you have someideas to work with versus none.
So I don't know if you want tospeak to that at all.
Have you found that helpful foryour students once they have
some ideas on how to playdefense?
Boris (37:47):
No, absolutely Absolutely , and it's exactly what you
mentioned.
And, as I mentioned, the leveldrops significantly for many
players, especially I would sayfor the level before title
players, before national masters, so where it's like they're
really disappointed how the gamegoes.
And unfortunately, in chess weprobably get a big part of our
(38:12):
games.
We get worse positions, what todo, especially maybe with black
, and you just have to controlthis and not to go down very
easily.
And well, especially I noticedthis when I remember I was 2,600
and started to get 2,700players and how to beat them.
I just, at some point I waswell, I don't understand how to
(38:34):
beat them.
I get advantage, I get the sameadvantage in the openings,
maybe like against the normalgrandmasters, and then they just
start defending so well thatit's very hard to beat them.
Yeah, and like you know themental part, so like I have one
of the chapters which namednever resign, so never relax, uh
(38:57):
, never relax, you know, fightuntil all the resources are
exhausted and uh, you know, onthe other side of this there are
so many players that they have,uh, problems converting very
big advantage.
You know, sometimes I havestudents and maybe parents
(39:19):
introduce and they say, well,the biggest problem with my son
is that he's not winning, likenot converting winning positions
, and you know, there is thisfamous phrase by Parash or Reti
that that's the most difficultpart of chess game.
And, by the way, one smalltrick I remember that I used
(39:41):
quite successfully during mychess career when I felt that
like really, the position goesdown and he outplays me very
confidently and it's like notmuch to do I I was on purpose
was going down on time.
Uh, now that that's probablyapplies only if you have
(40:05):
increment time control, becausewith delay it's probably not
such a good idea.
By the way, I don't know why westill have delay in the US.
Daniel (40:13):
Me neither.
Boris (40:14):
No other countries playing with delay.
So when you have increment, soyou go down on time and then the
person has this massiveadvantage and quite often they
like relax, they start to playsome careless because they
believe, well, you know, maybe Ihaven't calculated this till
(40:34):
the end, but he has no time tofigure out it either.
So let's try this and this iswhere you can maybe trick them.
But, by the way, if I can onestory, you were talking about
some memorable cases from mychess career In 2010,.
I was playing a very big Open inSwitzerland and in Zurich it
(41:00):
was 300 years to some chess club, local chess club, and they
invited a lot of grandmasters.
And I'm playing last roundagainst Morozevich, so the same
person I played in Olympia thatI mentioned the story and
somehow it's happened that outof five games against Morozevich
and it's during his best years,practically I had a plus two
(41:21):
score with three draws.
I don't know why it's happened,but I was really very
uncomfortable for him for somereason, and so I play this game
and it's the last round.
So all money we are playing forall the money, basically, and
win gets at least you sharefirst place in this tournament
(41:43):
and he's absolutely crushing me,absolutely crushing me and I
think, since he had such a badscore against me, so he really
wanted to beat me.
But it's also last round, ofcourse, and he has 50 minutes.
I'm down to seconds and I see,well, at some point I saw like
(42:04):
maybe three times in a row thatI would just resign.
I saw the move for him that Iwould just resign and I even
don't have time to think.
I'm literally down to lastseconds.
It's a lot of pieces and he'smating and somehow he's missing
everything and somehow Isurvived until move 40.
And back then we had extra 30minutes.
(42:26):
I even couldn't realize whathappened in the game.
I remember we went over 40moves and I just I get up and go
smoke Not recommended, but itwas so much pressure that I say,
well, I need to smoke now, so Ismoke.
I come back, he offers draw andthen I have a new, fresh look
(42:48):
at the position and I'm winning.
I'm winning, and and I won thisgame.
I shared first place.
I got probably my biggest prizein my chess career Well, at
least playing in the Opens, andit was amazing.
Daniel (43:02):
That's incredible.
Boris (43:03):
But that's the situation where he was so confident, with
the overwhelming advantage onthe clock and in position, and
he couldn't convert yeah, yeah,that's.
Daniel (43:19):
That's a great story.
It's a great example.
I just one more uh question foryou about this course, which is
that you have a chapter thatcovers, you know, the defensive
prowess of hans nieman.
Uh, it's an interesting choice.
So what made you choose hans asa player to focus on in your
course?
Boris (43:30):
yeah, there is this interesting story.
I came across his game againstInternational Master from Sweden
highly recommended, even if youdon't have chessable course,
maybe people can type I thinkhis last name Pantzar P-A-N-T
Z-A-R.
R, something like that and heplayed with the black pieces and
(43:55):
basically the position was Iremember I was following this
game live it was some tournamentin Sweden, open, I think
Realton Cup maybe and he'sabsolutely losing.
So I already I stoppedfollowing because for me it was
basically very clear result.
And then checking after 30minutes I don't understand
what's going on.
So basically it was some kindof he won the position where he
(44:26):
had one night for the queen.
So in the beginning it was somekind of like I call it mini
fortress because it's hard, it'swinning, but it's hard to win
because of the pawn structure.
But then slowly I think, theguy overpressed and he even won.
So after this game I talked withone of my friends, grandmaster,
and I mentioned have you seenthis game?
And he told me well, youhaven't noticed.
(44:46):
I mean, he's an amazingdefender, it's not the only game
.
And how about this game?
How about this game?
So he mentioned a few games andI started to check the material
and indeed, and you know whatis the most incredible, I would
say that most of the playerswould be really satisfied with
the draw, like surviving thesegames, just getting a draw that
(45:07):
amazing.
Somehow he wins.
This is what something bigabout him.
So he's winning theseabsolutely lost positions.
By the way, recently I haven'tseen so many escapes, but back
then, when I created the course,I just didn't know which game
to select.
It was such a big collection ofthese games.
(45:27):
So, fighting spirit, fightingtill the end, looking for
resources unbelievable yeah yeah, absolutely.
Daniel (45:37):
That course came out a little bit ago and then, of
course, you're choosing what toinclude in the course even
before it's published.
Was he the controversial figurethen that he is now, when you
were choosing to pick his games?
Boris (45:52):
It's a good question.
You know, this idea crossed mymind and then I knew that he's
controversial figure when I gotthis idea and I suggested and I
asked this question because Iknew also Chessable in the way
related to Magnus, so I askedthis question and they say well,
(46:16):
you know, it's absolutely finefor us, we don't do any politics
or stuff like this, so likeit's very welcome and I was
quite happy.
I was quite happy that I foundthis special topic.
So I had this Hans and mypersonal experience so and I
thought it will attract someextra customers for this name.
Daniel (46:40):
Yeah, sure it definitely catches people's attention.
For sure it caught mine.
So yeah, that's interesting.
Boris (46:46):
And, by the way, maybe, if you're interested, I can tell
you the story that back in 2000, what it was, 2014 or 15?
, 14, probably I've had someexperience with Hans, working
with him.
Oh yes, and you know, I thoughtthat the case is pretty much
(47:20):
hopeless.
Yes, he was like maybe 22something, living with parents,
like a little bit lazy.
I would say he didn't want towork.
Just he was asking can you sendme this material, like with the
openings I will play, playedsome strange openings.
I remember I met him in personand instead of maybe have some
discussion, he went to playBackhouse or Bullet, I don't
remember.
It was during World Open inPhiladelphia in, I think, 2015.
So I didn't have very high highopinion, to be fair.
And then everything has changed, right, so that's yeah, that's
(47:46):
funny, that's interesting.
Daniel (47:48):
Yes, so the other part of your course, resourceful
Chess, focuses mainly oncounterplay, and I think it's
obvious there's going to be someoverlap between the subject of
defense and counterplay.
But in your course you havethem split out, as you know, two
distinct areas.
So how do you see these twosubjects interacting in the two
(48:08):
volumes of your course?
Boris (48:10):
So, as we discussed, there are these potential pawn
sacrifice, going for active play, when the defending defending
suddenly sacrifice comes and youtry to distract, maybe, from
the attack.
So this is one idea, even mudin the waters, like when you
create imbalance and suddenlyit's objectively lost, but then
(48:31):
you have initiative and he hasto be precise to neutralize your
play.
So that's a very importantpattern of how you fight in bad
positions, how you defend, andthis is where I thought it
overlaps.
It was also the idea ofchessable management.
(48:52):
So they suggested this andthought it will be very clever.
They suggested this and thoughtit will be very clever.
And so first, as we discussed,the priority should be if we can
create something active.
Well, probably there are caseswhen it's, you know, on the
other side, on the flip side, wesometimes people talk well, you
(49:14):
just push a little bit and hewill collapse himself because he
will try to create, to go foractive counterplay.
He cannot defend passively andit will get even worse.
So of course there is thisbalance that you have to figure
out right, but I think that'smainly the idea.
(49:36):
So if there is an option maybeto go for activity, even in the
price of porn, or maybe exchangesacrifice, so it's really worth
considering this.
Daniel (49:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you brought up a point that I wanted
to raise, which is exactly thatI mean.
I mean, I think the point that Iwanted to raise is actually
your answer, and I wish I couldremember which guest I had
talked about this with, but nowI've done over a hundred
interviews so it's a little hardto remember exactly which guest
had said this, but they were atitle player and we were talking
about the subject of defense,and they made the point of
(50:07):
saying that you know, it's likehow to get out of a bad
situation, whether it's materialor position, counterplay
something active, like you said,should be looked at first
before something just defensive,purely defensive or, you know,
maybe a bit on the passive side.
And it sounds like you knowthat's exactly what you're
saying.
I don't know if there's anylike a meaningful distinction
here, because something has tocome first in volume one, volume
two, but counterplay is, youknow, like the second part of
(50:30):
your course.
Was there any, like you know,educational purpose to that?
Or is it just splitting themout one and two?
I mean, you know, because we'resaying that counterplay should
be the first thing to basicallylook for, but it's the second
volume of the course.
Boris (50:42):
Well, it's hard to say.
To be honest, it was maybemostly the marketing decision of
the Chessable team.
Daniel (50:53):
I see yeah, that's fine.
I just want to make sure yeah,that's fine.
Boris (51:00):
I just want to be interested with this course and
because I I send them so muchmaterial and they, they really
uh, the guys who work with methat it was a lot of headache
for them how to split this.
So I suggested something.
They probably didn't like ittoo much and so then they that
was their suggestion, basicallyhow to split.
Daniel (51:14):
That's fine yeah, so that just just how they chose to
split it.
I also want to talk about yourwebsite, because it offers a lot
of opening resources for folks.
Can you share a little bitabout, like you know, what kinds
of opening resources you offerand things?
Boris (51:25):
like that.
So in 2019, I decided that well, since my name mostly
associated with chess openingsand it's mainly because I have
10 books, this is number one andsome people like more advanced.
They know that I work with topplayers and I felt like, well, I
(51:46):
should somehow utilize this.
And then this is when I gotthis idea to create site.
I mean, I have to admit thatit's not very advanced site and
there was not so much budget, soit's kind of like a very, very
simple site and I started topublish PGN files of different
(52:08):
openings.
In the beginning, the idea wasthat I will split it into three
different categories.
So in the beginning, it was1,000 to 1,500, and then 1,500
to 1,800, and then maybe 1,800and further.
So that was in the beginning.
It was $1,000 to $1,500, andthen $1,500 to $1,800, and then
maybe $1,800 and further.
So that was the idea.
Now, after a couple of years, Inoticed that most of the people
(52:28):
anyway buy now the mostadvanced option, and then,
mainly, I switched to just onelevel most advanced level
because I realized that and thisis how I explain to my students
as well I think I'm very proudthat this I have basically very
(52:48):
loyal customers that if theystart buying something, it seems
like they buy everything,including grandmasters, of
course, not mentioning any names, famous YouTubers, everyone
that's awesome.
So they kind of like keep goingand well, I was quite proud.
I was quite proud what I havebeen doing, always finding
something interesting that maybenot published.
(53:10):
Like one of the latest filesthat was kind of like well, I
called it New Sicilian,something that well, it's not
exactly new.
There were a thousand gamesmaybe, but at least I haven't
seen any publication.
I might be wrong, but I haven'tseen and nobody corrected me.
So I have this YouTube channelthat people leave comments and
they say, well, yeah, nobodymentioned that other platforms
(53:33):
have these courses.
So currently I think there wereabout 92 files published on
different openings.
Now, some of them just it'slike three different levels, so
it's maybe all together, maybe50 plus, but it's different
openings.
Everyone can find somethinginteresting if people interested
very, very detailed, very, verydetailed, like a lot, like a
(53:56):
lot of material covered.
I always say that you downloadthe file.
It will take you many, manyyears ahead, like you're kind of
like you're set for many yearswith this opening, but of course
the theory evolves, but I hopeso, so, trying to do my best, as
I always did with the books andeverything.
Daniel (54:16):
I see, and these are mostly at the advanced level.
Boris (54:19):
Well advanced.
But I always say even to mystudents, so that even let's say
you are 1600 at this advancedlevel, because grandmasters buy
and they're quite happy withthis, but you can take it slowly
.
Let's say, first time you cover10 moves, I see, and then you
cover, next time maybe you playthe game, you again check the
file, you revisit the game.
(54:43):
Well, next time you cover 15moves and then slowly, slowly
you improve, because even 1600,they wouldn't buy a file if they
would just to stay at thislevel.
They want to get 2000 plus.
Daniel (54:50):
Right, right, right, uh, yeah, that's fantastic.
Yeah, well, um, we'll have alink for that in the show notes
so people can check out yoursite and look at your opening
files and everything that youoffer.
Yeah, appreciate it.
(55:13):
We could do a part twointerview, because there's still
so much of your your uh chessjourney or you're both your
competitive career and youreducational career that we that
we have yet to get to.
Um, but for now, uh, I want toclose our interview with a
segment that I do regularly withmy guests a series of fun, fast
questions and, uh, my firstquestion for you in that is
(55:37):
knights or bishops.
Boris (55:39):
Yeah, I thought about this question.
I know there was one famouscoach in Russia who mentioned
that I'm very strong playingwith queen and knights.
Well, it's a very well-known,you know, strong pair.
It's like the bishop pair.
But overall I probably wouldtake bishops.
After all, bishop is 325 points, slash pawns, and knight is 3,
(56:02):
and bishop pair is 7.
This is what I teach mystudents, so probably in most of
the cases I would take bishops.
Daniel (56:09):
Great.
What's your favorite timecontrol to play?
Boris (56:14):
Well, since I'm inactive, I would say, like what's the
favorite time control to analyzegames of my students?
I would call it maybe 90minutes with increment, and you
know, just 90 minutes withoutany additional time.
After 40 moves.
Recognizing that the chessevolves, everyone is looking for
(56:36):
faster chess and it's not thesame when I used to play.
Daniel (56:43):
Right, right.
What's your favorite opening toplay as white Catalan?
Boris (56:48):
I'm a Catalan expert.
That's my book, that's thecornerstone of my repertoire,
that's why I was hired byKramnik maybe Fabiana as well.
So Catalan.
Daniel (56:56):
Those are great reasons.
Yes, what's your favoriteopening to play?
Boris (57:00):
as Black, I would say Grunfeld, I would say Grunfeld.
I have been playing it since1995, since I was taught
Grunfeld in Israel.
And yeah, I have two books forGrunfeld.
And, by the way, only maybesome five years ago somebody
told me do you know thatGrunfeld is actually reverse
Catalan?
(57:20):
And I never thought about this.
I just love to play Grunfeld,so it's just tempo down, but
it's the same moves likeGrunfeld.
Daniel (57:27):
That's funny, since that's your favorite opening to
play as well.
Yeah, in one word, how wouldyou describe your playing style?
Boris (57:36):
I would think that I'm a versatile player, like everyone
back then.
I played, of course, definitelyI was considered to be a very
strong theoretician, so everyonewas like afraid of my open
preparation, but I think I wasalso good in defense, converting
materials, so probably aversatile player.
(57:56):
And yeah, yeah, what's one bookyou wish more chess players
would read?
Converting materials.
Daniel (57:57):
So probably versatile player and yeah, yeah.
What's one book you wish morechess players would read?
Boris (58:03):
yeah, that's a tough question.
So the the book that influencedmy chess maybe the most, it was
candidates tournament in Zurich1953 by David Brunstein, I
think it's also.
As far as I know, it's alsotranslated into English.
I was obviously I read this inBrunstein.
I think it's also.
As far as I know, it's alsotranslated into English.
I was obviously I read this inRussian, but I think I'm pretty
sure it's translated intoEnglish.
Daniel (58:23):
Who is your favorite player of all time?
Boris (58:26):
Gauri Kasparov still there, but slowly I'm starting
to consider Magnus.
You're starting to considerMagnus as well.
Daniel (58:35):
Magnus, yeah, right yeah yeah, definitely want to
consider.
If you could play any greatplayer of the past who is no
longer alive, who would it be?
Boris (58:44):
Yeah, that's an interesting question.
Maybe I would say BotvinnikNice.
I actually had a conversationwith him once in Moscow.
But it would be interestingbecause, yeah, he's considered
to be like the chess patriarchin Soviet Union, like positional
chess and everything.
Daniel (59:04):
If you could play any of the top players in the world
right now, who would it be?
Boris (59:11):
Yeah, that's interesting.
It would be interesting, maybeagainst Alireza Firuja.
Oh, interesting, because Iplayed against some of them
already, like I played against.
Would be interesting, maybeagainst Alireza Firuja, oh,
interesting.
Interesting because I playedagainst some of them already,
like I played against Magnus.
I have draw against Magnus,have draw against Kasparov,
right, well, I'm thinking aboutthose who I haven't played yet.
Daniel (59:29):
So yeah, you're one of the few guests that I've had who
can scratch off their list.
You know a few names already,because they've already played
them yes, uh.
Boris (59:36):
So with good results, draw with kasparov the game and
and draw with magnus that's yeah, it's amazing.
Daniel (59:42):
Yes.
If you had to choose a careerother than chess, what would it
be?
Boris (59:47):
I'm thinking, not much crossing my mind, but I I think
like something in the field ofrealtor, something oh
interesting yes, something well,probably realtor, but maybe
also broker or somethingtogether, when they brokering
and you know kind of helpingpeople to buy houses, something
(01:00:07):
like that and then my lastquestion if a chess genie
existed and could grant you anyone chess wish, what would you
wish for?
well, well, probably justsomething very simple playing a
world championship match.
Very simple, yeah, yes.
Well, I actually had a dream.
I had an American dream when Icame to US in 2014,.
(01:00:31):
My dream was to play US men'schampionship, for many reasons.
First of all, I was fascinatedwith Chess Club in St Louis.
Secondly, the last prize inthis event is, I think, twice
bigger than it used to be thefirst prize in Israel, so you
know.
But then I realized suddenlywhen I came, I maybe I had some
(01:00:56):
chances rating-wise, maybe.
Well, I maybe I had somechances rating wise, maybe.
Well, I needed to increase over2600, but it was close.
But then one, two years and wegot Dominguez and we got all the
Aronian and I realized it'svery hard.
You just have to be veryprofessional and work on your
own chess and unfortunately Ihad no time with all the private
lessons and other projects.
Daniel (01:01:17):
Yeah, yeah, that's unfortunate, it's too bad.
Boris (01:01:21):
So the next dream is to play under fifth well, senior
championship.
So that's what I'm looking forA few more years, Okay,
interesting.
Daniel (01:01:29):
Yes, Interesting.
Well, Boris, it's been a greathonor to have you on the show.
You've had an extraordinarycareer, you know on every level,
and you just have some amazingstories and amazing perspectives
and I just really appreciateyou taking the time to chat and
to be on the podcast and I justwant to say thank you so much.
Boris (01:01:50):
Daniel, thank you very much.
I really appreciate it.
It was a lot of fun, greatquestions, very professional,
and I'm looking forward to oursecond podcast already.
Daniel (01:01:57):
Yeah me too.
Me too.
Perhaps, near that time, we cantalk about your plans for the
your senior senior championshipgoals that you've talked about.
Well, yeah, it was greattalking to you.
Thank you so much, boris.
Thank you, daniel.
Have a nice day.
Thanks for listening.
This has been a production ofmy business, adult Chess Academy
, and that has a website withthe same name.
(01:02:19):
If you want to look for it, youcan also find me being way too
active on Twitter by searchingmy username, lona, underscore
chess.
See you next week.
Hey, welcome to the chess experience On this show.
It's all about helping adultimprovers.
I want to make learning chesseasier for you to navigate and I
also want you to have a morefun experience along the way.
I'm your host, daniel Lona, afellow chess amateur.
Let's get to it.
(00:25):
This show is sponsored bychesscom, the world's largest
chess community.
Chesscom recently launched anew way to learn from your games
with a feature called insights.
If you visit chesscom slashinsights, you can get detailed
stats and analysis in any of thetime controls you've played and
across any time period.
What kind of things can youlearn?
(00:46):
Well, you can learn.
What time of day do you playyour best morning, afternoon or
night?
What part of the game are youstrongest or weakest?
Opening, middle game or endgame?
Are you making more or lessmistakes than opponents at your
level?
You can find out all this greatinfo and much more at chesscom
slash insights.
Welcome to this week's episode.
(01:13):
Today's guest has had anincredible career as a
competitor and an instructorGrandmaster Boris Avruk.
Boris was born and raised inKazakhstan.
Later he moved to Israel andfor some years now he has lived
in the United States.
In 2005, boris had a worldranking of 50, an extraordinary
feat, and it makes him one ofthe most accomplished players to
be on this show.
He's had a peak rating of 2668.
(01:35):
As for some of his competitiveachievements, boris was the
world under 12 champion in 1990.
He's represented Israel in theChess Olympiad six times,
champion in 1990.
He's represented Israel in thechess Olympiad six times.
And Boris has coachedincredible players like Fabiano
Caruana, vladimir Kramnik, borisGelfand and Wesley.
So Not only that, but Boris hashad a prolific career as a
(01:55):
chess instructor.
He's published many openingbooks his specialty and he's
published five chessable courses.
On that point, in this episode,boris and I talk at length about
his course called ResourcefulChess Defense and Counterplay.
Our discussion will give yousome excellent advice on how to
play better defense.
I'll also be doing a giveawayof that course this week on
(02:18):
Twitter.
Just follow my Twitter account,lona, underscore chess for
updates on that.
There's also a link in the's.
Great to have you here.
How are you today?
Boris (02:43):
Hello Daniel, I'm doing great and thanks for having me.
It's great to have you here.
How are you today, Hello Daniel, I'm doing great and thanks for
having me.
It's a pleasure.
Daniel (02:50):
Yeah, pleasure is all mine.
It's a real honor to have youon the show.
You have had such an impressivecompetitive career and career
as an educator for chessstudents, so I'm excited to talk
about both aspects of yourchess life, yeah, so thank you
very much for being here.
Boris (03:07):
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you for having me Lookingforward to our conversation.
Daniel (03:10):
Yeah, I'll just start with a little easy question here
.
What has been your week likethis week in chess?
Are you working on a newpublication of some kind, or
just your own practice, oranything like that?
Boris (03:22):
Well, as always, I call it a routine a lot of private
lessons, and I'm trying tosqueeze time to maybe having
some material published on mypersonal page and YouTube
channel, and I hope we will getto this as well.
And yeah that's more or less myregular week working on chess,
(03:47):
but you know, sometimes maybethere are some big projects, but
not right now.
Daniel (03:53):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
We'll definitely talk aboutyour site later in the interview
, for sure.
So, yeah, I just want to startwith the beginning of your own
chess life and journey.
For people who don't know, youwere born in Kazakhstan and
lived there most of your lifebefore age 18.
You lived there most of yourlife before 18.
Did you grow up in a chessfamily and, if so, is that what
(04:13):
got you into the game?
Boris (04:14):
Well, it's possible to say this my father was actually
a candidate master, which iskind of a pretty advanced title,
I would say.
He has even a very decentfeeder rating 2260, but he's
inactive for many years.
And the story how I came tochess I grew up in Kazakhstan, I
(04:38):
was born in Kazakhstan, butevery summer we were traveling
to my father's grandparents, toUkraine, to be precise, east
Ukraine, and while I was playingon the yard of our house well,
we actually lived in anapartment building in the city
(04:59):
center and you know, I wasplaying with friends soccer,
basketball, something like thatand there was always some
company group of peopleinvolving my grandpa who played
chess on the backyard.
So while I was playing allthese games, I was kind of like
(05:20):
stopping by and checking chessgame and nobody knew that.
Well, I didn't know how to playchess, but slowly I started to
understand this and at somepoint I came and suggested the
move and my grandpa was verysurprised.
He was very surprised.
He said, wow, like yousuggested the move, I didn't
know even that you play chess,so you know the rules.
(05:41):
And he immediately took me tomy father and said well, you
know, somehow it's happened.
I think I was seven years old ormaybe six years old, and this
is when it started, but you know, it was a culture like you
mentioned Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
It all basically was part ofSoviet Union until 1992.
Right, 92, right.
So, and um, in the family my mydad was candidate master, as I
(06:06):
mentioned uh, I think grandpahad like maybe second category,
so we had these categories, youknow.
And uh, well, also, grandma,grandma knew how to play chess
and uh, my aunt had like thirdcategory, something it was kind
of like inside the culture,right within the culture, in so,
so, like most of the peopleknew how to play chess.
And then it started.
(06:28):
I came back to Kazakhstan, theysent me to the special sports
section or chess section, and itstarted to unravel like slowly,
you know.
Daniel (06:39):
Was chess part of the school curriculum in your
schools?
No, no, okay so how did?
You like start practicingregularly.
Was that just in your schools?
No, no, okay.
So how did you start practicingregularly?
Was that just on your own?
You said you were part of aclub, though you said Well, they
sent me.
Boris (06:53):
You know, you had all the sections for every sport as
well as chess, art and so on,and so they sent me to chess
section.
But at the same time my dad wasa candidate master and we had a
big chess library.
So we started to work with mydad basically every day and well
, probably I was talented, youknow, and it's kind of like
(07:18):
worked out pretty well.
You know, I was getting allthese like categories.
You know it was starting withfourth category and then I
quickly progressed to, maybe,candidate master and it was
mainly my father.
So that's this.
This is where, like, most ofthe work had been done, like
once he was coming back from hiswork, I mean, we were sitting
(07:42):
and spending two, three hours,whether it's, you know, any
training, chess games of topplayers, basically covering all
the books, and yeah, that's howit's worked.
And you know, I changed somecoaches, but the main coach is
my dad.
(08:02):
So that's how it worked with me.
Daniel (08:07):
Yeah, that's fantastic.
Well, you said you startedgetting into the game around age
seven.
Yeah, but basically four yearslater you win the World Under 12
Championship in 1990.
That's a huge success.
What do you attribute to that?
Because that's a short amountof time to go from just getting
into the game to winningsomething like that.
What do you attribute to thatsuccess?
Boris (08:28):
Well, you know, in the beginning it's probably I had
some talent, definitely, and Iwork hard, so with my dad, like
every day, I was going to thesection, I think twice a week
and I work myself also.
So like I was probablyhard-working kid and yeah,
(08:49):
somehow, somehow the progresswas like pretty smooth.
And you know, I just wanted tomention I obviously qualified
from Kazakhstan.
It was not so difficult, butthen I played soviet union
championship under 12.
So this is where it was anamazing competition.
Uh, actually way, way strongerthan world championship itself,
(09:13):
because if I check now, uh, theplayers I played against and and
basically, uh, just the fieldof the tournament, it's they're
all grandmas.
Many of them maybe crossed 2700.
Even so, that was a kind of likemassive amount of talent there.
And you know, for example, Ishared first place with Sergei
(09:34):
Movsasan, who at some pointreached 2747 rating, I think was
maybe top five in the world.
I think it's around 2000 orsomething like this.
So that was the first game thatI won in this tournament and I
remember how everyone likepassed by and asked for results
and everyone was shocked that helost because he was already a
(09:54):
superstar.
Yes, and then it was my firsttrip abroad to USA yeah, that
was remarkable Currently 90minutes from my house.
Yeah, that was remarkableCurrently 90 minutes from my
house.
Daniel (10:05):
You're right.
Yeah, you mentioned that.
It's funny how things work outthat way.
Were you competing a lot priorto that event?
Prior to that, you know, WorldUnder 12 championship, Were you?
Boris (10:17):
competing a lot in Kazakhstan.
I think a decent amount ofcompetition.
It was not like nowadays thatyou can play every weekend.
So mostly there weretournaments of 9-11 rounds.
So you know, like normalschedule, maybe two tournaments
a month or something like that.
Daniel (10:34):
Yeah, and then another highlight of your chess journey
at this, roughly at that timefor you, about two years later,
after that championship that wereferenced that you won.
About two years later, afterthat championship that we
referenced that you won, youmentioned to me that you had the
remarkable experience where yougot to be the last person to
ever play against the greatMikhail Tal.
Can you talk about how thathappened?
Boris (10:52):
Yes, it was an amazing memory for me.
We had one person who was wecall him some kind of sponsor in
Moscow.
So I was spending a lot of timein Moscow back then where chess
was obviously very popular andthere were some pop coaches.
I was also attending a chessschool probably many people
(11:18):
familiar with the Botvinnikchess school, where Kramnik and
Kasparov basically attended.
But maybe second best schoolwas Petrosyan school with the
main coach, aleksandr Nikitin,who was Kasparov coach basically
, so his major coach, I wouldsay, who took him from maybe
(11:41):
candidate master level and allthe way to the title, world
championship title.
So he was the main coach, very,very strict coach, and it was a
great experience and most ofthe sessions is like four times
a year, maybe it was aroundMoscow, maybe suburbs, and well,
at some point I got to knowsome people.
So there was a sponsor, uh,kind of like, arranged some
(12:05):
tournaments that I couldparticipate in moscow and at
some point I qualified.
There was a very, very bigtournament where I qualified to
so-called pre-olympic blitz, uh,and I remember I, I, I got
first junior first place andthere was morozevich, for
instance, that somehow I washalf point ahead of him and I
(12:25):
got to play against a Russiannational team.
So this is the year whereactually, soviet Union separated
into 15 countries, you know.
So that was the last year ofSoviet Union and there was a
Russian team which was supposedto go to Olympiad 1992, I think,
in Philippines, manila and so Igot into this tournament.
(12:45):
Russian team which was supposedto go to Olympia in 1992, I
think, in the Philippines,manila, and so I got into this
tournament.
So there was one qualificationplace for junior.
So I played in this tournament.
It's eight chess players,including Kasparov, tal, smyslov
(13:05):
and then some, you know, normalsuper grandmaster like Belovsky
Barev.
So I actually drew againstKasparov during winning position
and Tal was playing there andactually there was a final Tal
against Kasparov.
Kasparov won, but still Talcame second in this tournament.
It was impressive, I lost bothgames.
So it was double round, doubleround Robin.
Yeah, so I lost to Tal, I wascrushed in both games.
So it was double round, doubleround Robin.
Yes, so I lost to Tal, I wascrushed in both games.
(13:30):
And well, I was supposed to goback to Kazakhstan from Moscow
to fly, and then suddenly thesame person came to me who I
mentioned was like a sponsor.
So he well, you know, weorganized your match with Tal,
so there is a possibility.
And well, we have the ticketsand in one week I should fly to
(13:50):
World Youth Championshipunder-14.
He said well, no worries, we'll, you know, we'll change the
tickets.
So I went to the hospital whereTal was located.
Even during this tournament.
He was already not in greatshape.
I have some photo like that Isent to you.
He was already not in greatshape.
I have some photo that I sentto you.
He was looking not so good.
Yeah, and yeah, we played amatch of I think how many games
(14:16):
it was Maybe 13 games.
I even won 8-5.
But he was definitely notplaying his 100%.
He was very relaxed.
He was smoking one cigaretteafter another I don't know how
many cigarettes it was duringthe match.
There were some people around,so he was chatting with them and
then once he was very long timeand it's not digital clocks,
(14:39):
right so he started to speed up.
The problem was that I wasyoung and very quick as well, so
this is where maybe I even hadadvantage, so somehow I won 8-5.
But it's more about experience,not the score.
I even had some games like Irestored some games.
So it was a lot of fun.
And then, after we finished thematch, he asked me what's your
(15:03):
future plans?
And I told him well, I'mplanning to go to World Youth
Championship in Germany in oneweek.
He said well, you know, I'llhave some events also in the
city and I'll stop by and chatwith you, and I was extremely
excited you know he was incelebrity status, of course,
(15:26):
back then in Russia, and I waslooking forward to it, and I
remember the very first day whenI landed in Germany there were
news that Tal died.
Daniel (15:35):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, that's anincredible experience that you
got to have with him.
That's a great story.
It's an extraordinary memory.
There you mentioned that youhad the chance to restore some
of those games.
Does that mean you rememberedsome of them?
Boris (15:48):
Yes, I have some notes somewhere, notes in my office,
so I was able at least someopening moves and maybe until
move 20 or something like that.
Daniel (16:04):
Yes, I have some of them .
Yeah, have you shared that?
Boris (16:06):
anywhere publicly.
Well, you know, not really.
That's a good question.
I never shared them.
Maybe I thought it's not fairbecause he didn't play full
strength.
Daniel (16:16):
Yeah.
Boris (16:16):
Smoking cigarette, one after another.
But yeah, there's something toconsider.
Daniel (16:21):
Right, right.
Well, later in your career, in1995, you moved to Israel and
from what I could tell aboutwhat's listed online of your
competitive career, it seems youcompeted professionally from
the late 90s through the 2000s.
That was maybe a peak periodfor you and in that time for
people who don't know you twicewon the Israeli chess
(16:42):
championship Correct Once in2000, the other time in 2008.
You represented Israel sixtimes in the chess Olympiad
during this period.
So yeah, that's a lot ofaccomplishments.
How would you describe thatperiod of your competitive life,
say from the late 90s throughthe 2000s, because it seems like
you were very activecompetitively then, yeah, that
was exactly.
Boris (17:00):
well, that was the time when I was really a professional
player.
Well, that was the time when Iwas really a professional player
.
So, first of all, I moved toIsrael thanks to the CEO of
chess club in the south part ofIsrael, bershago it's called,
actually, you know interestingfact, if you check well, the
(17:23):
city which has most of thegrandmasters compared to
population, I think it's numberone.
Some sources give it's numberone city and some sources give
the capital of Iceland,reykjavik, the number one.
But it was the best chess clubBack then they said best chess
(17:45):
club in Europe, obviously bestclub in Israel.
And so I got to know my coach.
So he actually connected me tothis club and the guy called us
and well invited.
So I felt it's a good idea tocontinue a professional career
like to, well, at least to pushfor professional chess career,
(18:05):
because in Kazakhstan back thenit was a little bit problematic,
although I have to admitnowadays it's probably one of
the best chess federation that Ihave some collaboration with
them, working with some studentsare absolutely amazing and they
have a great success, likefemale national team got second
(18:25):
place and it's growing andgrowing.
So but back then it was not thesame and we thought that's a
great opportunity.
And well, you know, I got tothe city and I remember in two
days I already played for theclub team in the israeli league.
So you know, every country,basically in europe, they have
(18:45):
leagues.
I I still like baffled why wedon't have in the us, with all
the resources and money in us,and we don't have a leagues
right where players can play yesand uh well played for the team
and I.
I got one coach assigned to meand there was a budget that I
(19:06):
could travel, so that's all whatI needed.
And so I worked hard, gotopportunity to travel to
European tournaments and, yes,it's worked well and very soon I
started to play for thenational team.
And you mentioned six Olympiads, but it's not only Olympiads,
there were also.
(19:26):
It's one year there is Olympiadand another year European team
championship, and in the middlesometimes we have world team
championship when you qualifylike some top six teams.
So there is a special systemand once it was actually in the
city in Israel, in the citywhere I lived, in Be'er Sheva.
Once it was actually in thecity in israel, in the city
where I lived, in besheva.
(19:47):
Once it was a world championshipand well, obviously, great
memories.
Uh, we got a second place in2008, second place in olympiad.
Uh, after armenia and I, Ithink we got maybe two second
places in the european teamchampionship, which is also was
very strong, obviously, with allthe top teams, and I think only
(20:11):
in Olympiads I got, I think,three individual medals, with
the most memorable one probablyfrom the very first Olympiad, of
course, in Russia Lista, whereI got first place, it's called
second reserve.
Fantastic memories from thisperiod, obviously, and a lot of
success in these teamcompetitions.
(20:33):
Unfortunately, nowadays it'snot any more chess power.
Daniel (20:39):
Israel, unfortunately.
Boris (20:40):
But back then we always fought for the medals.
Daniel (20:43):
Yeah, well, I mean, yeah , it's an amazing time period
there for you, with all that youaccomplished During your career
.
You've also coached severalchess greats, including Caruana,
kramnik, and even helpingGelfand against Anand in the
World Championship match.
All of it's just so amazingjust to say that out loud, and
we could probably spend anentire episode talking about
(21:05):
your experiences with theseamazing players.
For now, just talk about one.
Let's talk about FabianoCaruana.
How did your experience withhim begin?
Boris (21:11):
How did your experience with him begin?
Well, I think I was connectedby a referral from Boris Gelfand
, who had good connections witha Fabiano coach back then.
That was a Russian grandmasterwho lived in Hungary Chernin, I
don't remember his name, I thinkAlexander Chernin and he
connected me.
Well, there was a referral.
We had a conversation, Iremember, during one of the team
(21:36):
events european championshipand we agreed to work.
So the point was that fabianowas back then living in hungary,
in the capital, budapest, and Iwas living in israel, so there
was not such a big distance.
So I was coming to trainingsessions with him.
What year was was this?
It was, I think it started 2009.
(21:56):
Okay, and finished 2011, maybethe beginning of 2011.
And so I was traveling toBudapest, I think two, three
times.
Then, suddenly, at some point,we had agreement to have a
training session.
We communicated, but then hetold me well, his dad actually
was communicating with me and hetold well, this time please
(22:17):
come to Switzerland.
So he moved to Switzerland andall those years he was playing.
He had Italian federation,chess federation.
He was playing for a nationalteam of Italy and when he moved
to Switzerland it actuallyappeared to be very close to the
Italy, so that was Italian partof it, of Switzerland, so we
(22:39):
had a few sessions also inSwitzerland and also maybe the
most memorable experience that Iwas his coach during his summer
tournaments.
So there were two majortournaments, one in, uh, bill
bill bien, so that's atraditional tournament in
switzerland that I personallyplayed there 12 times, and
(23:02):
another one in amsterdam, uh,and that was, uh, the last
tournament.
What they call is generationtournament where, like, young
talented players played againstexperience, and I'm just
thinking about young talentedplayers.
Back then it was Wesley Sof,fabiano Carano, hikaru Nakamura
and David Howell, so nowadayswould be probably something like
(23:26):
27-50 average rating, and theyplayed against Gelfand Svidler,
peter Heine-Nielsen and, I think, van Velje, local grandmaster.
So that was a nice experiencein the Amsterdam center, like an
amazing organization, and itwas the very last event of this
tournament, generationtournament.
Daniel (23:49):
I see I'm kind of curious where Fabi was at that
point in his chess career,because obviously he had more
growth still yet to come from2009 onward.
Do you remember where he wasworld ranking or something like
that?
Around that time when youstarted working with him, he was
something within the range 2550to 2600.
Okay, Okay, I see yeah, andwhat did you work on with him?
(24:11):
I mean, were there specificareas that you spent more time
on with him?
Boris (24:14):
Yes, Obviously, like all this work with top guys, it's
usually dedicated to openings.
Okay so, but openings it meansalso middle game, transition to
middle game.
Obviously, during thetournaments when I travel with
him, it's opening preparation.
So that's the main focus.
All the rest they can do easilyby themselves and it's not a
(24:37):
problem, but they need somebody,and back then it was what is
important to understand.
The computers were not sostrong so you still could have
some kind of like human approachand sometimes computer changes
evaluation, and it was veryinteresting to work back then.
I mean, nowadays it's also, butit's a different story.
(24:59):
With such a powerful computersyeah.
Daniel (25:01):
Right?
Yeah, I'm wondering about that.
Does the increased ability andpower of engines these days does
that?
I mean the way you worked withhim in 2009,?
Do players at that level todaystill require opening coaches in
the same way now, given thestrength of engines?
Boris (25:18):
Oh, absolutely yes, they do have.
For instance, I probably forgotto mention, but since 2016, I
think, I have been working as acoach with the England national
team during all these big eventsOlympiad and European team
championship and so, yeah, theystill.
(25:39):
There is some room and it'sjust so much information.
You cannot, there is no waythat alone you can cover all the
theoretical developments.
And you know you also have somekind of like human factor where
you prepare some surprises,maybe objectively, not the first
line of computer, but uhsomething that from practical
(26:00):
point of view, it's very hard toreact, very hard to defend, uh,
some novelties, tricky ideas.
So that that's what mostlynowadays is happening preparing
some uh tricky line for one game.
I see, I see.
Daniel (26:15):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yes, yeah, that's incredible,and, like I said, you know, if
we had a multiple hours longinterview, I would talk about
all the other people that you'vehelped coach along the way too,
because it's incredible.
For now I'd like to shift todiscussing both the topic of
defense, as well as giving someinsights into your course on
that subject, that two-partcourse that you created for
(26:35):
Chessable, because I think thesubject isn't talked about a lot
, or at least not maybe enoughfor club players, and I think
it's, you know, there's a greatvalue to them.
For those who don't know, youhave this incredible two-part
course on Chessable calledResourceful Chess Defense and
Counterplay.
Let me start broadly.
What made you choose thatsubject to teach?
Boris (26:54):
So, first of all, that was the topic that I was in some
way passionate about, because Inoticed with my private
students that there is always astruggle.
You know, everyone likes toattack, everyone likes to play
with initiative, and suddenlyyou need to defend and somehow
the level drops.
The level drops significantlybecause I guess, like you know,
they are not in the mood alreadyto play.
(27:16):
You know, it's not thatexciting when you are not
attacking or you don't haveinitiative, and this is one, and
it's also very important frommarketing point of view.
You know, it's not so easy tofind topic for Chessable.
I have six courses, but at somepoint, when I started to offer
my ideas, well, the answer waswell, we already have three
(27:38):
courses on this, we already havefour courses on this.
So basically, openings werepretty much.
It was very hard to findsomething, let's say, in the
opening field like kind of likemy specialty in some sense, and
so I had this middle game topicsand before that well, not
exactly middle game I had thisRussian in-game technique course
(27:59):
and some grandmaster thinking,overall thinking, and then that
was an idea, because you know,it's with me, with my coaching
thoughts.
It's always there is something,some topic that I start to be
obsessed with, like every monthsomething happening, for example
(28:21):
.
Now I just realized it's agreat topic construction
transformation.
That may be not covered toomuch and I'm thinking a lot and
always emphasize this during myprivate lessons.
So back then it was defense andso I suggested this because,
well, working with my students,I prepared some material already
.
So some material was ready andI suggested and they accepted so
(28:44):
and it was great.
Daniel (28:46):
Yeah yeah, that's a fantastic topic.
Most of my audience are adultclub players, but there's still
a large range of skill withinthat group, so when would you
say rating wise?
It makes sense to startthinking about defense and
counterplay as something to workon.
Boris (29:07):
Well, in my video when I have presentation on Chessable,
I noticed I'm talking about 1600plus rating.
It's always very confusingnowadays because, well,
sometimes you have players.
Maybe they might not understandeverything, but they still
strive to become a strong player, so it might work for them as
(29:30):
well.
But I would say, objectivelyspeaking, maybe it's 1600 plus.
But yeah, the examples arepretty advanced of course, in
this course.
But the most important is Ialways say whatever I show it's
even mentioned to my studentswhatever I show, we have a
discussion and we discuss themoves.
It's the way of thinking, justkind of like to develop some
(29:54):
proper way of thinking, kind oflike find the patterns, how it
works and so on.
So that probably would be myanswer.
Daniel (30:02):
Yeah, and you bring up a point that I wanted to dive
into a little further, which isthe subject of patterns.
So, yeah, that's something Ididn't expect to see,
necessarily when looking throughyour course on defense, which
is that there are defensivepatterns to be familiar with.
You know, I think a lot of thetime we associate that with the
idea of patterns, with tactics,checkmates, things like that.
Yes, so can you talk about theimportance of recognizing
(30:25):
patterns for defense?
Boris (30:27):
Yeah, well, I'm a big believer of patterns recognition
.
By the way, there is a greatseries of middle game books
where they talk I think it'scalled improve your pattern
recognition.
I think there are two volumes,and they just talk about middle
game and positional ideas in themiddle game.
So, for example, yeah, andyou're absolutely right, daniel,
(30:50):
so that people usuallyassociate with this with tactics
, but I believe in the opening.
So well, I always tell mystudents well, you have opening
and, for instance, I share somefile and it's pretty advanced
and it's basically impossible tomemorize.
So try to memorize somepatterns.
What are the ideas, how we dealwith this bone structure, where
(31:13):
the pieces belong to.
So, and then, even in case youdon't remember exactly the line
20 moves, you still should beokay because you know how to
develop and you have in yourbrain, like you know, some kind
of like pattern recognition.
So the queen should go here.
So the same.
And I just realized you knowyou would be surprised even that
(31:35):
was actually approach ofDvoretsky, a famous coach from
Soviet Union that I was, youknow, blessed also to work with
him a little bit, and hementioned in his books, he's
mentioning that there are evenpatterns for calculation, you
know.
So basically everywhere, pawnstructure opening, so not only
(31:56):
tactics, middle game, so I'm abig believer of this concept in
chess.
So pattern recognitioneverywhere.
And so talking about defensivepatterns, right, so one of them,
let's say to muddy the waters.
Right, let's say you are losing.
You see the game goes likereally badly for you, so you are
losing.
You see the game goes likereally badly for you, so you
(32:16):
change the character of the game, you sacrifice, you create
imbalance.
Let's say you sacrifice queenfor two pieces and two pawns, or
one piece and rook, and onceyou create this imbalance, it
for your opponent it's a littlebit uncomfortable because
everyone would be like much morecomfortable just to convert
(32:40):
extra pawn with equal material,with normal balance.
Just everything is well known.
So that's one of the things, solike a fortress or pawn
sacrifice in order to maybeachieve some theoretical drawish
endgames like opposite colorbishops or rook endgames, or at
least to have chances to getthem.
(33:01):
So that's a few examples.
Daniel (33:04):
Yeah, no, that's fantastic.
Also, in your course, you havea method for deciding whether to
accept or decline a sacrificethrough a process of elimination
, and that was reallyfascinating to me.
I hadn't heard that before.
Of course, I'm at the clublevel as a player, so you know
there's still a lot I'm notfamiliar with, but it's just not
(33:25):
one of those things I've seendiscussed before.
So can you talk about that, theprocess of elimination for
determining whether to accept asacrifice?
Boris (33:33):
well, I I think it's a relates to precise calculation.
Well, first of all, don't trustyour opponent always, even if
he's much higher rated.
So, number one you calculate,uh, maybe he's bluffing, and uh,
and of course, as you mentioned, I think, the priority always
for active play.
(33:53):
So that's something thatrequires, like the opponent to
be precise.
Daniel (33:58):
I see, I see.
So one of the key factors thenwould be how active can you be?
Yeah, and how?
Boris (34:05):
challenging the position will be for your opponent right.
So not and not to take it forgranted that he's well, he
sacrificed.
That means he knows somethingand he checked everything and
always trying to push maybe tofind mistakes in his calculation
what he's planning to and maybethere are some holes in his
calculation.
Yeah, it's also elimination.
(34:25):
It's one of the calculationpatterns.
So sometimes, and it maybecomes together with the
comparison, it maybe intersectswith comparison.
So you know, you compare a fewlines.
Okay, here I don't accept, I'mpawned down.
Here I have lost position twopawns down and here maybe it's
(34:47):
double H.
Maybe it's dangerous for me,but at least it's for three
results.
So probably it will be worth toaccept the third option.
Daniel (34:55):
And then one of my favorite topics that you have is
on the subject of choosing apawn sacrifice as a defensive
play.
I love that idea and again, youknow it's just something I
don't see as much.
So can you talk about why aplayer would want to sack a pawn
for the purpose of defense?
Boris (35:12):
want to sack upon for the purpose of defense.
Yeah well, this is like theminimum sacrifice that you can
do, maybe to change thecharacter of the game.
So, as far as I remember, thereare basically two options.
One is when you try to getactive counterplay, so basically
also changing the character ofthe game you're defending.
(35:33):
And so here you havecounterplay and it's already not
as comfortable for youropponent to just to push forward
with it with a very comfortableadvantage.
So we go for counterplay.
And now a very important secondidea as I mentioned before, you
sacrifice the pawn with the ideato get some drawish endgames,
(35:56):
whether it's opposite color,bishops, rook endgames, maybe in
some cases queen endgames andfortress.
Of course fortresses likethat's also an option, but
fortresses might involve maybebigger sacrifices than the pawn,
yeah, but nowadays you can seepawn sacrifice in so many games
for initiative.
(36:16):
And, by the way, there is onebook that crossed my mind by
excellent book that I recommendto most of my students.
It's called Beyond the Materialby Croatian Grandmaster
Kolashevich, and I remember inthe foreword for the book one of
(36:47):
the first sentences.
He mentions that when he got tohis club and his pretty
advanced coach, the coach saidif you don't know how to
sacrifice the pawn, you are nota good chess player.
Yeah, so it's very interesting.
Daniel (36:53):
I guess it kind of relates maybe to Russian chess
schools or Croatian.
It's pretty close, I guess.
Yeah, there's one otherquestion I want to ask you about
the subject of defense.
Um, I didn't have this writtendown, but I think it's an
important one, which is, um, uh,the mental side of it, because
I think that and I would saythis, is that it can speak to
club players.
Anyway, it's true for clubplayers that, uh, in situations
where you go down material orthe position's bad for you, I
(37:17):
think mentally a lot of playerscan get pretty stressed, they
can lose their confidence inthose situations.
But I think, in my opinion, thatyour course and what it teaches
is at least a partial cure forthat, at least the mental side
of it, because if you have sometools in your toolbox to know
how to handle those situations,I don't think you're going to
let stress and lack ofconfidence affect you as much,
(37:38):
because you know you have someideas to work with versus none.
So I don't know if you want tospeak to that at all.
Have you found that helpful foryour students once they have
some ideas on how to playdefense?
Boris (37:47):
No, absolutely Absolutely , and it's exactly what you
mentioned.
And, as I mentioned, the leveldrops significantly for many
players, especially I would sayfor the level before title
players, before national masters, so where it's like they're
really disappointed how the gamegoes.
And unfortunately, in chess weprobably get a big part of our
(38:12):
games.
We get worse positions, what todo, especially maybe with black
, and you just have to controlthis and not to go down very
easily.
And well, especially I noticedthis when I remember I was 2,600
and started to get 2,700players and how to beat them.
I just, at some point I waswell, I don't understand how to
(38:34):
beat them.
I get advantage, I get the sameadvantage in the openings,
maybe like against the normalgrandmasters, and then they just
start defending so well thatit's very hard to beat them.
Yeah, and like you know themental part, so like I have one
of the chapters which namednever resign, so never relax, uh
(38:57):
, never relax, you know, fightuntil all the resources are
exhausted and uh, you know, onthe other side of this there are
so many players that they have,uh, problems converting very
big advantage.
You know, sometimes I havestudents and maybe parents
(39:19):
introduce and they say, well,the biggest problem with my son
is that he's not winning, likenot converting winning positions
, and you know, there is thisfamous phrase by Parash or Reti
that that's the most difficultpart of chess game.
And, by the way, one smalltrick I remember that I used
(39:41):
quite successfully during mychess career when I felt that
like really, the position goesdown and he outplays me very
confidently and it's like notmuch to do I I was on purpose
was going down on time.
Uh, now that that's probablyapplies only if you have
(40:05):
increment time control, becausewith delay it's probably not
such a good idea.
By the way, I don't know why westill have delay in the US.
Daniel (40:13):
Me neither.
Boris (40:14):
No other countries playing with delay.
So when you have increment, soyou go down on time and then the
person has this massiveadvantage and quite often they
like relax, they start to playsome careless because they
believe, well, you know, maybe Ihaven't calculated this till
(40:34):
the end, but he has no time tofigure out it either.
So let's try this and this iswhere you can maybe trick them.
But, by the way, if I can onestory, you were talking about
some memorable cases from mychess career In 2010,.
I was playing a very big Open inSwitzerland and in Zurich it
(41:00):
was 300 years to some chess club, local chess club, and they
invited a lot of grandmasters.
And I'm playing last roundagainst Morozevich, so the same
person I played in Olympia thatI mentioned the story and
somehow it's happened that outof five games against Morozevich
and it's during his best years,practically I had a plus two
(41:21):
score with three draws.
I don't know why it's happened,but I was really very
uncomfortable for him for somereason, and so I play this game
and it's the last round.
So all money we are playing forall the money, basically, and
win gets at least you sharefirst place in this tournament
(41:43):
and he's absolutely crushing me,absolutely crushing me and I
think, since he had such a badscore against me, so he really
wanted to beat me.
But it's also last round, ofcourse, and he has 50 minutes.
I'm down to seconds and I see,well, at some point I saw like
(42:04):
maybe three times in a row thatI would just resign.
I saw the move for him that Iwould just resign and I even
don't have time to think.
I'm literally down to lastseconds.
It's a lot of pieces and he'smating and somehow he's missing
everything and somehow Isurvived until move 40.
And back then we had extra 30minutes.
(42:26):
I even couldn't realize whathappened in the game.
I remember we went over 40moves and I just I get up and go
smoke Not recommended, but itwas so much pressure that I say,
well, I need to smoke now, so Ismoke.
I come back, he offers draw andthen I have a new, fresh look
(42:48):
at the position and I'm winning.
I'm winning, and and I won thisgame.
I shared first place.
I got probably my biggest prizein my chess career Well, at
least playing in the Opens, andit was amazing.
Daniel (43:02):
That's incredible.
Boris (43:03):
But that's the situation where he was so confident, with
the overwhelming advantage onthe clock and in position, and
he couldn't convert yeah, yeah,that's.
Daniel (43:19):
That's a great story.
It's a great example.
I just one more uh question foryou about this course, which is
that you have a chapter thatcovers, you know, the defensive
prowess of hans nieman.
Uh, it's an interesting choice.
So what made you choose hans asa player to focus on in your
course?
Boris (43:30):
yeah, there is this interesting story.
I came across his game againstInternational Master from Sweden
highly recommended, even if youdon't have chessable course,
maybe people can type I thinkhis last name Pantzar P-A-N-T
Z-A-R.
R, something like that and heplayed with the black pieces and
(43:55):
basically the position was Iremember I was following this
game live it was some tournamentin Sweden, open, I think
Realton Cup maybe and he'sabsolutely losing.
So I already I stoppedfollowing because for me it was
basically very clear result.
And then checking after 30minutes I don't understand
what's going on.
So basically it was some kindof he won the position where he
(44:26):
had one night for the queen.
So in the beginning it was somekind of like I call it mini
fortress because it's hard, it'swinning, but it's hard to win
because of the pawn structure.
But then slowly I think, theguy overpressed and he even won.
So after this game I talked withone of my friends, grandmaster,
and I mentioned have you seenthis game?
And he told me well, youhaven't noticed.
(44:46):
I mean, he's an amazingdefender, it's not the only game
.
And how about this game?
How about this game?
So he mentioned a few games andI started to check the material
and indeed, and you know whatis the most incredible, I would
say that most of the playerswould be really satisfied with
the draw, like surviving thesegames, just getting a draw that
(45:07):
amazing.
Somehow he wins.
This is what something bigabout him.
So he's winning theseabsolutely lost positions.
By the way, recently I haven'tseen so many escapes, but back
then, when I created the course,I just didn't know which game
to select.
It was such a big collection ofthese games.
(45:27):
So, fighting spirit, fightingtill the end, looking for
resources unbelievable yeah yeah, absolutely.
Daniel (45:37):
That course came out a little bit ago and then, of
course, you're choosing what toinclude in the course even
before it's published.
Was he the controversial figurethen that he is now, when you
were choosing to pick his games?
Boris (45:52):
It's a good question.
You know, this idea crossed mymind and then I knew that he's
controversial figure when I gotthis idea and I suggested and I
asked this question because Iknew also Chessable in the way
related to Magnus, so I askedthis question and they say well,
(46:16):
you know, it's absolutely finefor us, we don't do any politics
or stuff like this, so likeit's very welcome and I was
quite happy.
I was quite happy that I foundthis special topic.
So I had this Hans and mypersonal experience so and I
thought it will attract someextra customers for this name.
Daniel (46:40):
Yeah, sure it definitely catches people's attention.
For sure it caught mine.
So yeah, that's interesting.
Boris (46:46):
And, by the way, maybe, if you're interested, I can tell
you the story that back in 2000, what it was, 2014 or 15?
, 14, probably I've had someexperience with Hans, working
with him.
Oh yes, and you know, I thoughtthat the case is pretty much
(47:20):
hopeless.
Yes, he was like maybe 22something, living with parents,
like a little bit lazy.
I would say he didn't want towork.
Just he was asking can you sendme this material, like with the
openings I will play, playedsome strange openings.
I remember I met him in personand instead of maybe have some
discussion, he went to playBackhouse or Bullet, I don't
remember.
It was during World Open inPhiladelphia in, I think, 2015.
So I didn't have very high highopinion, to be fair.
And then everything has changed, right, so that's yeah, that's
(47:46):
funny, that's interesting.
Daniel (47:48):
Yes, so the other part of your course, resourceful
Chess, focuses mainly oncounterplay, and I think it's
obvious there's going to be someoverlap between the subject of
defense and counterplay.
But in your course you havethem split out, as you know, two
distinct areas.
So how do you see these twosubjects interacting in the two
(48:08):
volumes of your course?
Boris (48:10):
So, as we discussed, there are these potential pawn
sacrifice, going for active play, when the defending defending
suddenly sacrifice comes and youtry to distract, maybe, from
the attack.
So this is one idea, even mudin the waters, like when you
create imbalance and suddenlyit's objectively lost, but then
(48:31):
you have initiative and he hasto be precise to neutralize your
play.
So that's a very importantpattern of how you fight in bad
positions, how you defend, andthis is where I thought it
overlaps.
It was also the idea ofchessable management.
(48:52):
So they suggested this andthought it will be very clever.
They suggested this and thoughtit will be very clever.
And so first, as we discussed,the priority should be if we can
create something active.
Well, probably there are caseswhen it's, you know, on the
other side, on the flip side, wesometimes people talk well, you
(49:14):
just push a little bit and hewill collapse himself because he
will try to create, to go foractive counterplay.
He cannot defend passively andit will get even worse.
So of course there is thisbalance that you have to figure
out right, but I think that'smainly the idea.
(49:36):
So if there is an option maybeto go for activity, even in the
price of porn, or maybe exchangesacrifice, so it's really worth
considering this.
Daniel (49:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you brought up a point that I wanted
to raise, which is exactly thatI mean.
I mean, I think the point that Iwanted to raise is actually
your answer, and I wish I couldremember which guest I had
talked about this with, but nowI've done over a hundred
interviews so it's a little hardto remember exactly which guest
had said this, but they were atitle player and we were talking
about the subject of defense,and they made the point of
(50:07):
saying that you know, it's likehow to get out of a bad
situation, whether it's materialor position, counterplay
something active, like you said,should be looked at first
before something just defensive,purely defensive or, you know,
maybe a bit on the passive side.
And it sounds like you knowthat's exactly what you're
saying.
I don't know if there's anylike a meaningful distinction
here, because something has tocome first in volume one, volume
two, but counterplay is, youknow, like the second part of
(50:30):
your course.
Was there any, like you know,educational purpose to that?
Or is it just splitting themout one and two?
I mean, you know, because we'resaying that counterplay should
be the first thing to basicallylook for, but it's the second
volume of the course.
Boris (50:42):
Well, it's hard to say.
To be honest, it was maybemostly the marketing decision of
the Chessable team.
Daniel (50:53):
I see yeah, that's fine.
I just want to make sure yeah,that's fine.
Boris (51:00):
I just want to be interested with this course and
because I I send them so muchmaterial and they, they really
uh, the guys who work with methat it was a lot of headache
for them how to split this.
So I suggested something.
They probably didn't like ittoo much and so then they that
was their suggestion, basicallyhow to split.
Daniel (51:14):
That's fine yeah, so that just just how they chose to
split it.
I also want to talk about yourwebsite, because it offers a lot
of opening resources for folks.
Can you share a little bitabout, like you know, what kinds
of opening resources you offerand things?
Boris (51:25):
like that.
So in 2019, I decided that well, since my name mostly
associated with chess openingsand it's mainly because I have
10 books, this is number one andsome people like more advanced.
They know that I work with topplayers and I felt like, well, I
(51:46):
should somehow utilize this.
And then this is when I gotthis idea to create site.
I mean, I have to admit thatit's not very advanced site and
there was not so much budget, soit's kind of like a very, very
simple site and I started topublish PGN files of different
(52:08):
openings.
In the beginning, the idea wasthat I will split it into three
different categories.
So in the beginning, it was1,000 to 1,500, and then 1,500
to 1,800, and then maybe 1,800and further.
So that was in the beginning.
It was $1,000 to $1,500, andthen $1,500 to $1,800, and then
maybe $1,800 and further.
So that was the idea.
Now, after a couple of years, Inoticed that most of the people
(52:28):
anyway buy now the mostadvanced option, and then,
mainly, I switched to just onelevel most advanced level
because I realized that and thisis how I explain to my students
as well I think I'm very proudthat this I have basically very
(52:48):
loyal customers that if theystart buying something, it seems
like they buy everything,including grandmasters, of
course, not mentioning any names, famous YouTubers, everyone
that's awesome.
So they kind of like keep goingand well, I was quite proud.
I was quite proud what I havebeen doing, always finding
something interesting that maybenot published.
(53:10):
Like one of the latest filesthat was kind of like well, I
called it New Sicilian,something that well, it's not
exactly new.
There were a thousand gamesmaybe, but at least I haven't
seen any publication.
I might be wrong, but I haven'tseen and nobody corrected me.
So I have this YouTube channelthat people leave comments and
they say, well, yeah, nobodymentioned that other platforms
(53:33):
have these courses.
So currently I think there wereabout 92 files published on
different openings.
Now, some of them just it'slike three different levels, so
it's maybe all together, maybe50 plus, but it's different
openings.
Everyone can find somethinginteresting if people interested
very, very detailed, very, verydetailed, like a lot, like a
(53:56):
lot of material covered.
I always say that you downloadthe file.
It will take you many, manyyears ahead, like you're kind of
like you're set for many yearswith this opening, but of course
the theory evolves, but I hopeso, so, trying to do my best, as
I always did with the books andeverything.
Daniel (54:16):
I see, and these are mostly at the advanced level.
Boris (54:19):
Well advanced.
But I always say even to mystudents, so that even let's say
you are 1600 at this advancedlevel, because grandmasters buy
and they're quite happy withthis, but you can take it slowly
.
Let's say, first time you cover10 moves, I see, and then you
cover, next time maybe you playthe game, you again check the
file, you revisit the game.
(54:43):
Well, next time you cover 15moves and then slowly, slowly
you improve, because even 1600,they wouldn't buy a file if they
would just to stay at thislevel.
They want to get 2000 plus.
Daniel (54:50):
Right, right, right, uh, yeah, that's fantastic.
Yeah, well, um, we'll have alink for that in the show notes
so people can check out yoursite and look at your opening
files and everything that youoffer.
Yeah, appreciate it.
(55:13):
We could do a part twointerview, because there's still
so much of your your uh chessjourney or you're both your
competitive career and youreducational career that we that
we have yet to get to.
Um, but for now, uh, I want toclose our interview with a
segment that I do regularly withmy guests a series of fun, fast
questions and, uh, my firstquestion for you in that is
(55:37):
knights or bishops.
Boris (55:39):
Yeah, I thought about this question.
I know there was one famouscoach in Russia who mentioned
that I'm very strong playingwith queen and knights.
Well, it's a very well-known,you know, strong pair.
It's like the bishop pair.
But overall I probably wouldtake bishops.
After all, bishop is 325 points, slash pawns, and knight is 3,
(56:02):
and bishop pair is 7.
This is what I teach mystudents, so probably in most of
the cases I would take bishops.
Daniel (56:09):
Great.
What's your favorite timecontrol to play?
Boris (56:14):
Well, since I'm inactive, I would say, like what's the
favorite time control to analyzegames of my students?
I would call it maybe 90minutes with increment, and you
know, just 90 minutes withoutany additional time.
After 40 moves.
Recognizing that the chessevolves, everyone is looking for
(56:36):
faster chess and it's not thesame when I used to play.
Daniel (56:43):
Right, right.
What's your favorite opening toplay as white Catalan?
Boris (56:48):
I'm a Catalan expert.
That's my book, that's thecornerstone of my repertoire,
that's why I was hired byKramnik maybe Fabiana as well.
So Catalan.
Daniel (56:56):
Those are great reasons.
Yes, what's your favoriteopening to play?
Boris (57:00):
as Black, I would say Grunfeld, I would say Grunfeld.
I have been playing it since1995, since I was taught
Grunfeld in Israel.
And yeah, I have two books forGrunfeld.
And, by the way, only maybesome five years ago somebody
told me do you know thatGrunfeld is actually reverse
Catalan?
(57:20):
And I never thought about this.
I just love to play Grunfeld,so it's just tempo down, but
it's the same moves likeGrunfeld.
Daniel (57:27):
That's funny, since that's your favorite opening to
play as well.
Yeah, in one word, how wouldyou describe your playing style?
Boris (57:36):
I would think that I'm a versatile player, like everyone
back then.
I played, of course, definitelyI was considered to be a very
strong theoretician, so everyonewas like afraid of my open
preparation, but I think I wasalso good in defense, converting
materials, so probably aversatile player.
(57:56):
And yeah, yeah, what's one bookyou wish more chess players
would read?
Converting materials.
Daniel (57:57):
So probably versatile player and yeah, yeah.
What's one book you wish morechess players would read?
Boris (58:03):
yeah, that's a tough question.
So the the book that influencedmy chess maybe the most, it was
candidates tournament in Zurich1953 by David Brunstein, I
think it's also.
As far as I know, it's alsotranslated into English.
I was obviously I read this inBrunstein.
I think it's also.
As far as I know, it's alsotranslated into English.
I was obviously I read this inRussian, but I think I'm pretty
sure it's translated intoEnglish.
Daniel (58:23):
Who is your favorite player of all time?
Boris (58:26):
Gauri Kasparov still there, but slowly I'm starting
to consider Magnus.
You're starting to considerMagnus as well.
Daniel (58:35):
Magnus, yeah, right yeah yeah, definitely want to
consider.
If you could play any greatplayer of the past who is no
longer alive, who would it be?
Boris (58:44):
Yeah, that's an interesting question.
Maybe I would say BotvinnikNice.
I actually had a conversationwith him once in Moscow.
But it would be interestingbecause, yeah, he's considered
to be like the chess patriarchin Soviet Union, like positional
chess and everything.
Daniel (59:04):
If you could play any of the top players in the world
right now, who would it be?
Boris (59:11):
Yeah, that's interesting.
It would be interesting, maybeagainst Alireza Firuja.
Oh, interesting, because Iplayed against some of them
already, like I played against.
Would be interesting, maybeagainst Alireza Firuja, oh,
interesting.
Interesting because I playedagainst some of them already,
like I played against Magnus.
I have draw against Magnus,have draw against Kasparov,
right, well, I'm thinking aboutthose who I haven't played yet.
Daniel (59:29):
So yeah, you're one of the few guests that I've had who
can scratch off their list.
You know a few names already,because they've already played
them yes, uh.
Boris (59:36):
So with good results, draw with kasparov the game and
and draw with magnus that's yeah, it's amazing.
Daniel (59:42):
Yes.
If you had to choose a careerother than chess, what would it
be?
Boris (59:47):
I'm thinking, not much crossing my mind, but I I think
like something in the field ofrealtor, something oh
interesting yes, something well,probably realtor, but maybe
also broker or somethingtogether, when they brokering
and you know kind of helpingpeople to buy houses, something
(01:00:07):
like that and then my lastquestion if a chess genie
existed and could grant you anyone chess wish, what would you
wish for?
well, well, probably justsomething very simple playing a
world championship match.
Very simple, yeah, yes.
Well, I actually had a dream.
I had an American dream when Icame to US in 2014,.
(01:00:31):
My dream was to play US men'schampionship, for many reasons.
First of all, I was fascinatedwith Chess Club in St Louis.
Secondly, the last prize inthis event is, I think, twice
bigger than it used to be thefirst prize in Israel, so you
know.
But then I realized suddenlywhen I came, I maybe I had some
(01:00:56):
chances rating-wise, maybe.
Well, I maybe I had somechances rating wise, maybe.
Well, I needed to increase over2600, but it was close.
But then one, two years and wegot Dominguez and we got all the
Aronian and I realized it'svery hard.
You just have to be veryprofessional and work on your
own chess and unfortunately Ihad no time with all the private
lessons and other projects.
Daniel (01:01:17):
Yeah, yeah, that's unfortunate, it's too bad.
Boris (01:01:21):
So the next dream is to play under fifth well, senior
championship.
So that's what I'm looking forA few more years, Okay,
interesting.
Daniel (01:01:29):
Yes, Interesting.
Well, Boris, it's been a greathonor to have you on the show.
You've had an extraordinarycareer, you know on every level,
and you just have some amazingstories and amazing perspectives
and I just really appreciateyou taking the time to chat and
to be on the podcast and I justwant to say thank you so much.
Boris (01:01:50):
Daniel, thank you very much.
I really appreciate it.
It was a lot of fun, greatquestions, very professional,
and I'm looking forward to oursecond podcast already.
Daniel (01:01:57):
Yeah me too.
Me too.
Perhaps, near that time, we cantalk about your plans for the
your senior senior championshipgoals that you've talked about.
Well, yeah, it was greattalking to you.
Thank you so much, boris.
Thank you, daniel.
Have a nice day.
Thanks for listening.
This has been a production ofmy business, adult Chess Academy
, and that has a website withthe same name.
(01:02:19):
If you want to look for it, youcan also find me being way too
active on Twitter by searchingmy username, lona, underscore
chess.
See you next week.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.