March 4, 2025 • 59 mins
118 GM Susan Polgar is a once-in-a-lifetime talent. She became the first-ever woman to earn the GM title by rating and norms. By age 15, she became the highest-rated female chess player on the planet.
In 1996, she became the Women’s World Champion and the first-ever player to earn the Triple Crown: holding the world title in all formats: blitz, rapid, and classical.
Not only that…But she did so against relentless obstacles from sexist chess federations who did not want a woman to succeed the way she did.
In this episode, we discuss her many competitive achievements, her unique upbringing in Hungary with her father and sisters, and why it led to their success.
We also cover Susan’s incredible influence on the game in her post-competitive chess career.
For decades, Susan has worked tirelessly to raise the profile of professional chess in America, and to grow the game for women and girls throughout the world.
We discuss all this through the topics raised in her new and thrilling autobiography, Rebel Queen.
More From Susan:
How You Can Support the Pod:
Join this show’s Patreon called “Podcast Perks” and get benefits like:
- Submitting questions to guests
- A shout-out of your name on the pod
- Vote on future topics/guests
- Exclusive behind-the-scenes updates about the show
- DM me any month for a brief chat on chess or episodes
Click here to join the Patreon for The Chess Experience.
Or you can…
>>Support this pod by grabbing a chess.com membership which will help you improve your chess & defeat your enemies. A small portion will fund this pod - and every bit helps! Just click this link.
>> Neither? How about checking out Daniel's chess.com profile? Witness his countless, embarrassing blitz losses. He even accepts some friend requests. (Ad)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Daniel (00:05):
Hey, welcome to the chess experience On this show.
It's all about helping adultimprovers.
I want to make learning chesseasier for you to navigate and I
also want you to have a morefun experience along the way.
I'm your host, daniel Lona, afellow chess amateur.
(00:34):
Let's get to it.
This show is sponsored bychesscom, the world's largest
chess amateur.
Let's get to it.
Or a club member that you justplayed, and you can do so
interactively on the board, withboth of you on video talking to
each other.
It's also a great way to have alesson between a student and a
coach, and you can check thatout on chesscom slash classroom.
Welcome to this week's episode.
(00:57):
We have an incredible guest foryou, the legendary grandmaster
Susan Polgar.
I suspect most of you listeningknow who she is and why she's
so well known in the chesscommunity.
Even still, her list ofaccomplishments and background
is definitely worth sharing.
Susan was born and raised inHungary and she is the oldest
child of the three famous Polgarsisters.
(01:19):
Among her many achievements,susan is the first ever woman in
the world to earn theGrandmaster title by rating and
norms.
In 1992, she won the Women'sWorld Blitz Championship and the
Women's World RapidChampionship.
Then, four years later, in 1996, susan won the Women's World
Chess Championship, and thatgave her the Triple Crown, which
(01:43):
means she was the worldchampion in classical, rapid and
blitz, and she was the firstperson to ever achieve that,
amongst both men and women alike.
Also, during the course ofattending five chess Olympiads,
susan has had an undefeatedrecord of 56 games with zero
losses.
And those are just some of hercompetitive accomplishments, and
(02:07):
that record alone isoutstanding and enough by itself
.
But she's also had anextraordinary post-competitive
chess career.
Over the past few decades, susanhas been amongst the most
influential chess figures in theworld by raising its stature
here in America, as well ashelping to bring more women and
girls into the game everywhere.
One of the ways she's achievedthose goals is that in 2007, she
(02:31):
launched the Susan PolgarInstitute for Chess Excellence,
known as SPICE.
The institute has helped raisemillions of dollars for chess
scholarships and has sponsorednumerous high profile chess
tournaments, like the SPICE Cupand the Susan Polgar Girls
Invitational.
And now Susan has written a newbook, her autobiography called
Rebel Queen.
(02:52):
I've read the book and it'sabsolutely phenomenal.
The challenges Susan faced inher life were more than I ever
realized, which just makes heraccomplishments all the more
impressive.
I couldn't recommend the bookmore highly.
There's a link in the shownotes to purchase her book,
along with links to her socialmedia accounts if you want to
follow her, which you should,and we discuss different topics
(03:13):
from her book at length in ourconversation.
Here's my interview with thegreat Susan Polgar.
I hope you enjoy it.
Hi, susan, I'm so excited tohave you on the podcast.
More than words can express.
Susan (03:28):
I'm excited to have you here.
Thank you so much for talkingwith me today.
How are you doing?
Absolutely.
Daniel (03:32):
Hi Daniel, it's my pleasure to join and share my
story about you beforehand, butI read your book.
It's a phenomenal book, and Ifeel like I know even more now
in a lot of great ways, and soexcited to talk about all of it
with you.
Thank you, yeah, my pleasure.
(03:53):
One thing I wanted to mentionbefore I dive into all my
questions is well, basicallysort of a thank you, which is
that we have connected severaltimes over the years on Twitter,
and this comment is actuallyless about me in that way, but
rather just noticing that notonly do you chat with me, but
you chat with a lot of otheradult club players on Twitter
who are very enthusiastic andexcited about chess.
(04:13):
That's pretty uncommon forpeople at your level, and so I
just want to say thank you forconnecting with all of us in the
community.
Susan (04:20):
Thank you, and maybe you recall a story I shared in my
book actually, where this camefrom.
You know, I remember when I wasjust 12 years old and I was
already a decent player, like2200 master level pretty much,
(04:41):
and I happened to be in Moscowat the time and obviously was
still far from becoming agrandmaster, and I was, as part
of that trip, we were visiting abig tournament ongoing where
Mikhail Tal has alsoparticipated, and obviously I
was just a spectator still inthe beginning of my career,
relatively, and there was thosehuge demonstration boards, you
know, long before computers andall that.
So I was observing the game andmikhail tal, you know, a legend,
(05:05):
you know a hero.
You know he was at the time avery big smoker, you know and in
between his moves.
He was in the hallway, walkingup and down, up and down, and
one cigarette after another, andI, I.
It was my dream that, oh my god, if one day I could play a game
with some legend like that,like Mihaly Natal.
(05:28):
You know what I would get forthat right.
Daniel (05:30):
Yeah.
Susan (05:39):
And I didn't have the courage to go up to him and
asked him.
Well, you know, we are herefrom Budapest, Hungary, and my
daughter's dream is to play agame with you.
Would you consider that?
After your game, and his eyeslit up shockingly, you know, to
my biggest surprise, you know,his eyes lit up and he says yes,
(05:59):
of course.
And well, we thought it willtake a few hours later until he
finishes his game.
I remember he was playing theArmenian grandmaster, Rafael
Vaganyan, at that day, and so hewent in, he went back to the
tournament hall.
Next thing, we know, within 15,20 minutes, he's back out and
he says I'm ready.
(06:20):
I said what, I'm ready.
I said what you know.
How is it possible that he, youknow, offered a draw and, you
know, chose to play me?
And then, anyway, it was a verymemorable moment and you can
read obviously you read the rest, what happened after that in
the book, but everybody elselistening you can find out the
(06:40):
rest of the story.
Yeah, find out the rest of thestory.
Yeah so anyway, that's whatinspired me when you said that
I'm talking to, you know amateurplayers or non-GFs, you know
that, these experiences, andthat particular one with Talis,
that inspired me, that justbecause you're a legend, just
because you're a grandmaster,you know you can be nice to
(07:00):
people, you can share yourpassion of the game and I think
that remained with me for therest of my life.
Daniel (07:07):
That's fantastic.
That's a beautiful story and abeautiful reason to keep doing
that, and I love that it stayedwith you your entire life.
I can probably speak for otheradult amateurs when I say that
when you connect with us, evenhowever brief, just one sentence
, it means the world to us.
It inspires us, you know, andobviously, chess being so
difficult, we need a littleinspiration along the way.
(07:33):
So, thank you so much.
My pleasure, yeah.
So yeah, I'd like to just askyou kind of a broad question of
what you are up to with chessthese days.
What are the activities withinchess now that keep you busy?
Susan (07:41):
Well, as you may imagine, it took a lot of time to write
my memoir and took over threeyears.
So, now that the baby is bornand the book is done and the
release is happening, I'm veryproud of it, and that's what it
takes most of my time nowadaysto you know to talk to people
(08:02):
about it, to promote it, toshare the message of the book,
which is basically that itdoesn't matter how difficult
something seems to be, if youhave the passion for it, you're
willing to work hard at it andyou'll persevere.
Nothing is impossible.
That's my message, and the bookis just, of course, a vehicle
(08:25):
to spread this message.
Talks like this one is anotheravenue, and I'm hoping that
actually even there will be amovie made out of my story to
inspire even more people.
Daniel (08:37):
Oh, that's great.
Well, on that last point, well,first of all, that would be
amazing.
I would love to see a movie ofyour book and your story.
I noticed you recently postedon social media a picture of you
in Hollywood.
Does that have anything to dowith it?
Was there any momentum tryingto be gathered there?
Susan (08:54):
There is some, yes, there is some interest, but as I
learned over the years,especially in recent years,
Hollywood's wheels turn ratherslowly, and especially when a
lot of things are happening.
First it was the pandemic, andthen they had the strike of the
you know guilt, and lately thevery unfortunate and tragic
(09:17):
fires.
So you know, things are, youknow, will happen in their own
time, I guess.
Daniel (09:23):
Sure, well, in the meantime, I'll cross my fingers
for it.
And also, in the meantime, wehave this amazing new book by
you for everyone to read, andyeah, let's dive into that.
So, on March 11th, for everyonewho's listening, on March 11th
it'll be released and it'scalled Rebel Queen.
There'll be a link to that bookto purchase in the show notes
for everyone listening, thatbook to purchase in the show
(09:44):
notes for everyone listening.
What made you say that?
Well, I guess I was going tosay now, but you said it was a
three-year journey putting thistogether, but let's just say
three years ago at that time,what made you say that that was
the right time to publish yourstory?
Susan (09:53):
Well, as you know, after I retired from competitive play,
I had a coaching career, andwhen I retired from that as well
, from Webster University,that's when, finally, I had more
time and I wanted to make sureI do a good job at it and I'm
not rushing it, I can focus onit without needing to divide my
attention, you know, to a jobwith the university.
(10:16):
So I had time to think about itmore and taking my time, which
I did, and I guess that's why Iwanted to wait until I had the
time to do it.
Daniel (10:27):
Sure, you also have what , in my opinion, is the best
title for a chess book that I'veever come across, which is
Rebel Queen.
As awesome as that sounds,there's probably a lot of great
meaning in that title for you.
In what ways do you consideryourself a rebel?
Susan (10:43):
Well, obviously no person , or definitely no four-year-old
, you know, starts her life as arebel.
It's really the circumstancesthat forced me to become one.
I was brought up in a familywhere the sense of justice and
fairness had a very strong uhrole and very important part Uh,
(11:07):
probably not least for the factthat, uh the tragic, uh
historic uh background of myfamily, I'm a third generation
Holocaust survivor.
Daniel (11:17):
Yeah.
Susan (11:18):
And we lost over 300 members of our extended family
in the in the Holocaust and mygrandparents who were the few
fortunate ones to return fromthose horrific places and times.
It remained with them, thosememories.
Obviously it was the biggestinjustice and unfairness.
And therefore, also, growing upin a then communist country,
(11:44):
Hungary, their message was thateverybody's equal and in that
sense, you know, it was alsoingrazing in people, the message
that everybody should be equal.
So whenever I felt that I'mbeing unfairly wronged and
discriminated against and youknow whether it's sexism or
(12:08):
anti-Semitism or you know thingsthat the Trust Federation was
doing it was an automaticreaction that I have to fight
the unfairness, the injustice.
And you know, slowly, slowly,it became as the story of my
life.
You know that, you know, in thememory of my family members who
(12:28):
couldn't fight and never cameback from the horrors of
Auschwitz.
You know, in that honor, Injust, also in hopes of fighting
the right fight for the rightcause for the future generations
, including my sisters.
So when I was really young and Iwasn't allowed to compete with
(12:49):
boys in certain tournaments,because or I was, they said I
was too young, I cannot playthis tournament, you know I felt
, but why not?
And it kind of became themessage.
You know the fight, thestruggle of my life when I felt
that something is unfair,something is unjust.
You know, let me fight it.
And to say the truth, I had ahefty price to pay, both
(13:14):
personally and professionally.
But looking back all theseyears later I would obviously do
it all over again.
It was a worthwhile fight, thatmy sisters didn't have to go
through all that and the futuregenerations had a much easier
time being a woman chess player.
Daniel (13:33):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
You definitely paved the wayfor a lot of people.
So it sounds like you're sayingthat being a rebel wasn't
something you really ever soughtout to do.
It wasn't something you said,oh, I would love to be one of
those, but rather thecircumstances demanded it, and
when the circumstances werethere, you felt it your
obligation to rise up to that.
Susan (13:54):
Yes, absolutely.
Daniel (13:55):
So, yeah, I'd like to spend a little time on your
early years in chess.
I think people who are aware ofyour story are, even if they
haven't read the book.
Many people probably know aboutyour father's unique approach
to helping you and your sistersucceed in chess, and that in of
itself is interesting, butthere's another element of it
that interested me, which isthat he combined with you and
(14:17):
your sisters.
His approach worked.
You were all extremelysuccessful.
And yet many parents over thedecades have wanted to raise
chess superstars, but few havedone so, even though your father
kind of, to some degree, laidout a model.
So why do you think yourfather's approach was successful
when most other parents'attempts fell short?
Susan (14:37):
Well, my father was a visionary and he believed very
much in his theories.
He wrote a book about it, raisea Genius.
That was published in Hungarianmany years ago.
And first of all I'd like toclarify a myth that a lot of
places have been writtenincorrectly.
My father is not a master chessplayer, as some thought.
(14:59):
There has been another personby the same last name in Hungary
who has been a master.
Probably that's what caused theconfusion, but that was not my
father.
He was just a casual player inhigh school and then he has not
played much after that.
Once I showed interest in chess, he became kind of a chess punk
(15:20):
, you know, and he startedlearning with me and started
collecting chess books and allthat.
But, to answer your question,he was fantastic in giving me
his love of chess, his passionfor chess, and I think that's
the key.
You know that when you lovesomething, then practicing that
(15:43):
or studying that, working atthat, doesn't feel like work.
Daniel (15:47):
Right.
Susan (15:47):
It feels like you're enjoying yourself, you're doing
your hobby.
In fact, I just listenedrecently an interview with
Magnus Carlsen where he saidexactly the same thing that he
chases his hobby.
He never felt like he wasworking.
You know, and I was kind of thesame way, and I think that was
kind of the genius of my father,that he knew how to make chess
(16:10):
fun for me even at a very earlyage, when I was still three,
four years old, and also at thesame time he instilled it of me,
in me, the value of hard work,of me in me the value of hard
work.
(16:34):
And at a very young age he hadthe philosophy that every night
when you go to bed you shouldfeel that you have a little bit
of more knowledge than you hadthat morning when you woke up.
And if that keeps repeating andrepeating and accumulating,
eventually that will bringpositive results.
You can, you know, bear thefruits of that.
And I saw that happening right,even if not, even if I felt
(16:57):
that I knew a little more everyday.
But the result may not happenthe next day, but soon enough I
saw the fruits of my labor, soto say, and that belief that
hard work pays off.
That became kind of part of meat a very early age and that
(17:19):
made me believe that what I'mdoing is the right thing, even
if there are temporary setbacksor losses or disappointments.
That belief that it's justlogical right, that if you keep
learning and other people don'tlearn, you will be ahead of
those people on that particularsubject right.
Daniel (17:39):
Right.
Susan (17:41):
And that's just simple logic that even a four or
five-year-old could comprehendand understand, kept me going
and, as a result, keptjustifying this belief that
practice makes master, you know,as my father used to say.
You know, kept me movingforward.
Moving forward now to yourquestion as to why so many other
(18:04):
parents fall short despitehaving the belief, is largely
because they lose patience.
They are looking for a shortcutand when you lose patience,
what happens is you.
You know you become maybe.
You know you blame the child,you scold the child and the
(18:24):
child loses the passion for thegame and either a child quits
altogether or sometimes theparents quit.
You know putting in effort andsacrifices for paying coaches or
taking them to tournament orall those things.
You know that's necessary,obviously, to succeed eventually
(18:46):
, and it's a very long-termproject.
You know like, I started toplay at age four and, you know,
let's say, won my first worldchampionship title for junior
level when I was 12.
So even if you just look atthat, it's a long time.
It's an eight-year period andmy parents sacrificed a
(19:06):
tremendous amount, you know, innot just resources that was
limited, but more so, even withtheir time and effort.
You know when other parents.
You know, after they come backfrom work, you know they spend
time with friends, maybe, or goto a movie or have a beer with
friends or try to save up for acar or a summer home.
(19:30):
That's not what my parents did,you know.
They kind of put all theirefforts in me because I'm
significantly older than mysister, who came only much later
, older than my sister who cameonly much later, and you know
they put in all their effortsand resources, money and time in
my chest.
You know they didn't have a car.
You know, throughout all mychildhood In fact, I was the
(19:53):
first one who had a car, much,much later, obviously, and we
didn't have a summer home.
Also, until the kids werepretty much grown up already, he
had very little time to spendwith friends or even family.
As a matter of fact.
In fact, my father often had asecond or a third job to save up
(20:14):
money for being able to take meto tournaments or pay for
coaches or chess books.
Even so, it's a tremendoussacrifice.
From more so, the parent'sperspective and I think a lot of
parents either don't evenrealize it how much sacrifice it
really takes to succeed on anextreme level, or they are not
(20:38):
willing to do it or unable to doit for one reason or another.
Daniel (20:42):
Yeah, those are lots of great insights there into your
father's approach.
There's something you said justnow, as well as in the book,
that I think is reallyfascinating, which is that for
as eager as your father was tosee you all succeed, he didn't
chastise you if you mademistakes or lost games.
If I'm remembering correctly,it was more just important that
(21:04):
you showed up and put in thework that was asked, but he
didn't really.
Susan (21:07):
Yeah, exactly that was his approach that whatever work
that you can do and you shoulddo is before it's in the
training time.
So when, when you go to atournament or to a game, you
have to be calm and you have tobe able to show off what you
learned, it's the training timewhen he was sometimes, you know,
(21:31):
reminding us of reminding me ofthat.
Work harder, focus more.
You know, do your very best intraining as well, because
whatever you do in training willbe reflected in the result of
the tournament.
So that's where he was, let'ssay, tough or strict when it
came to training, but when itcomes to the tournament or the
(21:55):
result of the game, all he wouldsay is well, you see, you have
to work harder, you, you knowyou have to work more, or things
like that, but not the, youknow, the game itself.
or when I was very young, if Ididn't focus, you know yeah
because when I was really young,at in the beginning, you know,
I was very curious, you know,and I was in that chess club and
(22:16):
you know, door opens and I waswondering, oh, who came in.
You know, door opens and I waswondering, oh, who came in.
Daniel (22:21):
You know, what is the?
Susan (22:22):
person wearing.
You know, things like that.
You know so that he wouldobviously be not happy about.
But it's not the result itself,but it's the why about the
result.
Daniel (22:35):
Sure, yeah, and I know you know in your book you talk a
lot about you know how yourfather helped you and your
sisters excel at chess and we'retalking about it here and he
deserves a lot of amazing creditfor what he did.
That said, I still want to giveyou your credit and focus a bit
on you and your own attributesto all that you've accomplished.
(22:56):
What do you feel separate fromwhat he gave you, allowed you to
achieve what you've achieved?
Susan (23:02):
Well, I think, in addition to the passion and the
work ethic which you just talkedabout, it's that I developed
this never give up attitude, andI think that's really, really
key.
I guess I didn't like to lose,I enjoyed winning, so that's
part of it, of course, but it'sa little bit more than that,
(23:27):
because obviously nobody likesto lose.
It just somehow became strongerthat, even in positions when
others may resign, or even ifnot literally resign, but
mentally resign, I realized,maybe partly because I had
situations when I thought I'mwinning right and all of a
sudden my opponent tricked melast minute and I felt how
(23:52):
painful that was to me and Isaid, okay, I'm going to learn
from this.
So what does it mean?
A game is never over until it'sover.
So what does it mean A game isnever over until it's over, and
I'm going to fight until I feelthat is the last chance to turn
this around.
And soon enough I realized thatothers are no different than me,
(24:13):
in some ways right, and thereis a possibility that somebody
else also may get overconfidentand make a mistake, even in a
seemingly winning position, andI may save the game to a draw or
occasionally even turn it allaround and win the game, and I
(24:51):
figured, you know, even if I cansave half a was kind of my own
discovery, so to say, somehow amethod for myself on how to
handle those adversities, hownot to make myself overly upset
but rather in fact use it asfuel to prove people wrong.
(25:11):
So I think those are kind ofthe two qualities that I learned
to develop on my own thathelped me succeed, and also the
fact that I learned to takepride in what I do.
You know, if I do something, Ilike to do it right, and that's
whether I cook a good Hungarianmeal or you know anything else I
(25:33):
do.
I like to do things right ornot to do it at all.
Daniel (25:36):
Yeah, I mean this actually overlaps with the next
question I was going to ask youbut you've already identified it
which is this never-give-inattitude that you have.
But I'm going to reframe thequestion just a little bit,
since you covered that groundsomewhat.
It seems to me that you wereable to take that attitude
beyond just the chessboard and,as you said, the challenges that
(26:01):
you faced personally, and I wasstruck by these in the book,
how much there was this isdefinitely I didn't fully
realize the extent of it until Iread your book that throughout
the 70s and 80s, facingresistance from chess
institutions themselves theHungarian Chess Federation, FIDE
but you still took that nevergiven attitude beyond just the
board and towards thosechallenges, and I think that's
(26:23):
incredible.
So do you feel like chesshelped develop that attitude for
you in other areas of life thatwould be needed for you?
Susan (26:32):
Probably so.
Yes, and I remember and I thinkthe story I also mentioned in
the book that you know becauseof our difficult family history
mention in the book that youknow because of our difficult
family history.
I remember my grandma, mymaternal grandma, had made a big
impact on me that when I hadtough times, you know, in my
(26:54):
career or even personally, shemanaged to put things in
perspective for me.
She reminded me that if youthink you have it tough, you
don't understand what tough is,clearly referring back to the
Holocaust times that she had toendure and luckily survive.
So I think putting things inperspective became a very
(27:18):
important part of my life.
That, whether I lose a painfulgame or even later on in my
personal life, a breakup orsomething like that, putting
things in perspective I think isa really important thing and
also something that eventually Ilearned throughout my life,
(27:38):
probably more so in my adultlife, is the importance of
balance, and that's whetherintellectual pursuits versus
physical fitness, spending timeon your career versus your
family or many different partsof life.
I think putting things inperspective and finding the
(28:00):
right balance or even in chessright between attacking and
defending or things like that,spending time on different
aspects of the game.
So finding that balance, Ithink, is key.
Daniel (28:13):
Yeah, yeah.
So now I just want to talkabout your career a little bit
more broadly and beyond evenjust the early years.
It sounded like reading yourbook that for a long time you
were on a mission to earn the GMtitle and you wrote that
earning that title was what youhad wanted more than anything.
And a few things struck meabout it, but one of those is
(28:35):
that with your talent, I feltlike you could have had a whole
range of different goals to setyour sights on as a chess player
, and you had chosen the GMtitle as your kind of your
guiding light.
Why was the GM title the mostimportant one for you during
those years?
Susan (28:55):
Well, I was growing up in an environment where, whether
it's in the chess clubs, whetherit's the chess federation, the
media at large, they werelooking at me, looking at women
chess players at large, thatwhat kind of crazy idea it is
for a woman trying to become anayah, forget a gm or or world
(29:16):
champion right, it's.
It's like impossible.
It's like if I was saying thatI want to go to the moon and it
really bothered me that I didn'tunderstand why.
You know, just because mygender is not male, it's, why
should a woman not be able to dothat?
And I really, really wanted toshow the world and even women,
(29:38):
to be honest, because I rememberwhen I was already like master
level player and I was talkingto some other pretty good female
chess players and theyliterally did not believe in
themselves or in the femalegender as such, that we are
capable of accomplishing that,and I really took it as my
(30:01):
mission to prove them wrong Atsome point in my career.
There were two other women whogot awarded the title, but they
haven't fully completed all thenorms and rating requirements,
although they are legendaryworld champions obviously Nanaka
Prindashvili and MayaChiburdanidze, dear friends of
mine, great players, butnevertheless they always had
(30:24):
that little shadow behind theirGM title that they got it partly
because they were female worldchampions.
And I wanted to do it as theguys do it, you know, by all the
norm requirements or the ratingrequirements, and I was just
honestly shocked that nobody didit before me.
But I said, okay, let me do it,you know.
(30:46):
And I was so, so, so thrilledwhen, finally, in January 1991,
I made my first I mean sorry,last GM norm and became the
first woman to accomplish thatfeat.
I was really determined to showthe world that that is possible
.
Daniel (31:05):
Yeah, given that, as you said before you, there hadn't
been a woman who had achieved itthrough the norms and rating
Right, did you ever have anyself-doubt about that?
Or were you confident and justknew it was a matter of when?
Susan (31:19):
I was pretty confident, to be honest, because I'm a very
logical person and you know,just like I believe that if you
practice something you'll getgood at it.
I believe that I'm seeing otherIMs and GMs games.
I see they make plenty ofmistakes as well.
They are human, just like me,right?
(31:39):
So I always had this why notattitude?
You know, it's not like youknow they have three hands or
two brains, or you know what Imean.
It's like we kind of have thesame tools when it comes to
chess.
It's a matter of, I think, howmuch effort you put in in
training and then obviously, howmuch discipline you have during
(32:02):
the games or the tournamentsthemselves.
And yeah, I never reallydoubted it.
I thought, and I think thatthat was kind of a very
important thing, that I neverdoubted it.
It was only a matter of time.
Yeah, I thought becoming worldchampion that's different.
You know, I think there youneed a little bit of extra
factor.
I mean overall world champion,you know, to be the very best in
(32:25):
the whole entire planet, youneed that X factor.
you know whether it be yournerves, whether your energy
level, whether talent whateveror a combination of different
things.
You need to have everything.
All the stars need to align,you know, to become the overall
world champion and obviouslyeven in our history we have only
(32:48):
about, I think, 20 or so peoplethat achieve that, even if we
count the knockout champions.
So it's an extremely hard thing, but I think, to become a
grandmaster, I think literallyany healthy person who has the
passion and is willing to workhard for it can achieve.
Daniel (33:08):
That's wonderful.
I love hearing that.
Susan, as I was reading yourbook, I was just in awe of all
the different major victoriesyou had competitively, whether
over specific individuals or foran entire event, such that it's
difficult to pick one to talkabout.
So I'm curious, then whatstands out to you as being
(33:29):
meaningful, a meaningful victory, whether it was against an
individual or winning an event.
When you look back on yourcareer, what do you remember
most fondly?
Susan (33:38):
Well, if I just have to pick one game that is really
memorable is probably againstthe legendary Yugoslav
grandmaster, yugomir Ubojevic,who was number three in his peak
in the world.
And the reason why that gamestands out not just because he
was a much higher rated playerat the time we played and that
(34:00):
he was a legendary player, butalso that prior to the
tournament that we played thatgame and it was a super
tournament with Anatoly Karpovand other top players of the
time he said in an interviewthat he was questioning the
organizers that how is itpossible that they are inviting
female player.
(34:21):
And, you know, I felt maybe Ishould show him why.
And and the fact that Isucceeded in doing so, and not
not just the result that I won,but the fashion that I was able
to win that game.
It really is very dear to myheart to this day.
(34:41):
It's a nice game where I kind ofmade it look like I was a much
higher rated player in realitythan he was, and as of my
results obviously is to winningthe Triple Crown, which is
meaning winning the Blitz, rapidand Classical World
Championships, and, surprisingly, I was actually the first
(35:04):
person to ever to complete thattrifecta and the second person
who was able to win in all threeformats was, 18 years later,
magnus Carlsen, and then, justvery recently, a couple months
ago, juven Jun was the secondwoman to do it.
So, interestingly, it's a veryhard thing to do, just like in,
(35:32):
let's say, racing.
You know, it doesn't happenreally that a marathon runner
would also win the hundred meterdash as well as the 5k.
I see so it's kind of somewhatrequires different skills to be
really good in blitz and inclassical time control as well
as in rapid.
So probably that's that'sreally memorable.
And then, of course, that I'mreally proud that I'm still the
(35:54):
only person to have all sixcrowns, in addition to having
the triple crown, winning ChessOlympiad, the team gold medal as
well as individual gold andbeing a number one player in the
world.
So I'm really proud of thosethings I accomplished.
Daniel (36:12):
Rightfully so.
Yeah, just a question aboutthat.
As you said, it doesn't happenoften.
The triple crown doesn't happenoften because it's a little bit
of a different skill set, evenat that level.
So did you feel like you had toclose the gap in one of them, a
little bit like train a littleharder, say in Rapid or Blitz,
or were you just naturally ableto do all three?
Susan (36:30):
Well, actually I was fortunate because I grew up with
the school of thought thatBronstein and Mikhail Tal
represented, in contrary to,let's say, the Botvinnik School
of Chess.
That was forbidding to playblitz.
So it was a very controversialtopic when I was growing up in
the 1970s because a lot ofcoaches forbid their students to
(36:53):
play chess, based on theBotvinnik recommendation.
But my father, who wascoordinating my training, even
though he wasn't my main coachafter a while he was very much
in the school that believed thatpractice is practice, chess is
chess and Blitz is a good way toactually get a lot of practice
(37:16):
in, to practice your openings inmany games.
Obviously it would take foreverto try out your different
openings in classical games thatnobody would have the time to
do so.
In blitz you can play 10 20games in the same time as in one
classical game.
So actually my trainingconsisted of a significant
(37:38):
amount of Blitz practice as well.
Rapid didn't really exist forthe, I guess, first 10 decade of
my life really, or even furtherthan that, but Blitz was a very
important part of my chesttraining and I think that helped
obviously.
Daniel (37:57):
I see.
One thing that stood out to mefrom your book is that you said
one of your favorite ways to winin your early years was to come
back from a losing position.
I'm curious if that stayed truefor you throughout your career.
Susan (38:11):
Well, it was more so obviously in the early years
that you know it was, I guess,just psychologically felt good
to come back from the dead youknow bouncing kiss goodbye
already to a game that okay.
What to do?
I'm losing, you know, and then,all of a sudden, if a window of
opportunity shows up where youknow, it felt really good to
(38:34):
take advantage of it.
Of course, I was on the otherside of it many times as well,
so it was a nice feeling, but ofcourse I learned soon enough
that I'd rather try to avoidgetting there in first place as
of back positions.
Daniel (38:51):
Did something replace it ?
Was there like later, in later,later years, as you say?
I mean, you don't want to getinto a losing position anyway,
but was there a different typeof win that eventually became
your favorite?
Susan (39:05):
Well, I really enjoy games I win when it's a
brilliant combination that endsthe game, like in that.
My probably all-time favoritegame is against Maja
Ciburdanidze.
That I played in the CalviaChess Olympiad in 2004, where I
made a series of sacrifices thatled to a winning endgame.
(39:29):
Yeah, that's really a goodfeeling.
Unfortunately, that's a rareoccasion, I think, in most
people's career.
Daniel (39:36):
So, talking about the later years of your competitive
career now, in 1996, you won theWorld's Chess Championship, but
unfortunately in 1999, fideprevented you from defending
your title by insisting that theevent be held during a time
when you needed to recover fromyour pregnancy, and in your book
you said that at that point youhad had enough of professional
(39:58):
chess.
I'm curious if you would talk alittle bit about this period
for when you decided not topursue competitive chess anymore
, specifically like how much ofthat was just being fed up with
frustrating treatment afterfrustrating treatment from chess
federations, versus justfeeling like you had
accomplished most of what youhad wanted to competitively
anyhow at that point.
Susan (40:18):
Well, probably a little bit of both, and also the fact,
being a brand new mother, Iwanted to take care the best I
can for my son and also livingin America by that time I really
felt that me winning morechampionships are not
(40:39):
necessarily the best way tospend my time.
I really felt that, using mycelebrity status, at least
within the world of chess, maybeI have the opportunity to
spread the word about chess, toincrease the popularity of the
game, to become an ambassadorfor the game, I think, while
(41:01):
there are always new championsand I could win more
championships, but I felt thatat the time there weren't enough
good ambassadors for the gameand that became my new passion
and my motivation to try to getchess to the mainstream.
And and I'm so happy to seethat obviously partly some to
(41:23):
due to my activities, but notjust.
Obviously there are plenty ofother people today who do a
great job and chess has become,I don't know, maybe a hundred
times more popular than in themid-90s.
It was.
So what happened in thepopularity of chess in America
in the 1972-1975 time?
(41:44):
When Bobby Fischer became worldchampion?
Chess was at an all-time highin popularity.
It was in all kinds of eveningshows.
It was all over in front pagesof different magazines, in
mainstream magazines, you know.
And then, unfortunately, afterBobby Fischer retired and he was
(42:05):
very controversial by the timeI moved to the US in the well,
about 25 years later, all ofthat kind of vanished and chess
was viewed kind of as a sportfor geeks, you know, intelligent
people, but kind of somewhatstrange people, it's almost
(42:27):
exclusively men.
So there was on one hand notmuch popularity to it and that
had some negative connotationsto it as well.
And you know as much as I lovechess, it really hurt me and I I
thought I wanted to dosomething about it to change the
perception, to get it the gamea a better rap and and get it
(42:50):
more popular.
And and that is why I Iparticipated and created a
number of events.
You know I had the Battle ofthe Sexes.
I had Chess for Peace, whichinvolved not just Anatoly Karpov
and myself but former RussianPresident Gorbachev.
I did a world record simul inFlorida where I played 326
(43:15):
opponents simultaneously.
That got mainstream attention.
So I was looking out foractivities and events that
raises attention, positiveattention for the game, and so
that kind of became my missionbeyond being just a player.
Daniel (43:33):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Beyond being just a player.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I mean that part of your careeris just as impressive and
exciting to me as yourcompetitive history.
And yeah, you mentioned youtalk about that in the book that
you know around that time asyou're not competing as much
anymore basically that you wantto elevate the stature of
professional chess in Americaand I mean that's such an
(43:56):
incredible goal.
I mean, of course I'm biased asa chess fan, but I love that as
a goal and I'm just curiouswhat are some of the ways that
you feel you've moved thecountry in that direction?
Susan (44:06):
But in addition to the events I already just mentioned,
also, I founded the SusanPolgar Foundation in 2002.
And through the foundation wedid a lot of events.
We were trying to expand thegrassroots movement.
There were very few girls andwomen playing chess at the time.
In fact, my foundation cameabout when the then executive
(44:29):
director of the United StatesChess Federation, frank Nero,
approached me.
United States Chess Federation.
Frank Nero approached me whenrealized that there were under
1% of the membership of the USChess Federation only who are
female.
Less than 1%.
Daniel (44:43):
Wow.
Susan (44:44):
This is 2002.
And he asked me, helped me to dosomething about it.
And that's when my foundationwas born with the number one
purpose to promote chess andespecially for girls.
And I'm very proud and happy tosay that when we went back 10
(45:04):
years later and checked thenumbers, all of a sudden, 10
years later, there were alreadyabout 15% of the members of the
US Chess Federation female.
So we made a progress and Iguess, partly through my
foundation's efforts, the firstall-girls national tournament
(45:24):
championship was approved for myfoundation, the Susan Polga
Foundation's Girls Invitational,and I'm proud to say that now
we're already in over 20 yearsrunning that event and through
that and other various events ofmy foundation and I'm proud to
say that now we're already inover 20 years running that event
and through that and othervarious events of my foundation,
through our partneruniversities, we have awarded
(45:46):
over $7 million in scholarshipsand cash prizes as well.
So you know, I've tried,anywhere and everywhere I went,
to spread a good word about andI'm really happy that I'm
finding more and more partners,whether it's in Silicon Valley
or Hollywood or in the media,that more and more people
(46:07):
support chess and there are moreand more people playing chess
With.
That said, obviously theappearance of the internet and
even the Netflix series Queen'sGambit was very helpful to have
a lot more people interested inchess and follow chess today.
Daniel (46:29):
Well, I mean, that's incredible to take the USCF
membership from 1% to 15% inabout 10 years.
Is that right, about 10 years?
Susan (46:38):
I believe so yes.
That's absolutely incredible,yeah and the other aspect of
that conversation with theexecutive director then was that
he managed to convince me tocome out of retirement and also
to play for the United Statesjust one time.
So, to play for the UnitedStates just one time, and indeed
(46:59):
in 2004, I played for the USflag.
Obviously, I was already motherof two US citizen babies, who
were born here in the US.
It was my second home and youknow we were hoping that, with
the example of the US femalesoccer team when they won the
World Cup with Mia Hamm, if wemanaged to come back with the
(47:21):
medals from the Chess Olympiad,then maybe we could have a
similar effect in promotingchess for girls in America,
chess for girls in America.
And so actually I'm proud tosay that I came back with four
medals.
In addition to the team medal,I won also two gold medals
individually, and it was.
(47:44):
It could have been even morehelpful than it was that's a
whole other story but it didn'thelp as much as I hope it would,
but nevertheless it helped myfoundation raise visibility for
chess for girls in the US.
Daniel (48:00):
Well, that's.
A very exciting part of thebook to me was when you I don't
know if it's fair to say cameback out of retirement I don't
know if that's the appropriatephrase but when you returned to
competitive chess, at least forrepresenting the US women's team
in the Olympiad.
That was such an exciting storyMakes me wish I had been back
into chess at that time in mylife and could have witnessed it
(48:20):
happen in real time.
It just seemed amazing.
But anyway, what do you see inthe chess world right now that
makes you feel optimistic aboutwomen and girls in the game?
Susan (48:31):
Well, I think the fact that there is a lot more support
for women's events, there is alot better prizes than in my
days, also the fact that thereare a lot more girls playing I
think it's very positive in mydays that the few girls who did
(48:52):
play, they used to be the onlyones in that chess club and they
used to give up.
Now that at least there is acommunity that supports each
other.
So usually each of the femalechess players has some friends
you know who are also femalechess players and they support
(49:13):
each other in need and theydon't feel lonely.
I I really felt that it was avery unnatural, almost unhealthy
environment when the femaleplayers like myself literally
were the only female at thechess club or the only female at
most of my tournaments growingup.
It's a very unnaturalenvironment which which caused,
(49:35):
of course, a lot of you know,difficult situations, including
sexual harassment and even somedangerous situations, as I write
about it in my book.
But I think on that end thingsare still not perfect but have
greatly improved throughout mylifetime.
Daniel (49:53):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely it is.
I mean, from my perspective,it's interesting to read about
the times in your book when youknow these issues were even
worse for you and for otherwomen and girls, and so it's
clear that progress has beenmade, and yet much more progress
still needs to be made.
So, on that point, what do youthink still needs the most
(50:14):
attention or improvement forwomen and girls in chess?
Susan (50:17):
Well, I think prizes could still be improved, just
like in tennis, you know, prizesfor US Open are the same for
men and women, and because it'snot really because of the exact
perfection of the game, you knowthat I think is being judged.
Obviously, you know, djokovic,you know, would be a better
(50:41):
tennis player than, let's say,the the best female players,
right?
It's not about that.
You know, if you want to seeperfect games, you may as well
look at the computers playingeach other, right?
so it's so because of that, Ithink if there would be similar
prizes, that would be one thingthat definitely could be
improved.
(51:01):
But also, you know, in a dreamworld, you know if, let's say,
there would be a benefactor whowould, let's say, give a 10
million dollar endowment andthen you know the profits income
from that endowment couldsponsor, you know, the chess
training of the next generationof female chess players.
So you know, that's kind of adream that may or may not come
(51:25):
true, but that definitely couldimprove.
Daniel (51:28):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, susan.
There's like one big question Istill want to ask you like to
kind of close the main part ofour interview out, and it's
based on a quote from your bookthat I really liked, which is as
you were describing yourcompetitive years in chess.
You said that few things giveyou more pleasure than chasing a
difficult goal.
That quote stood out to me.
(51:49):
I absolutely love thatstatement, assuming that's still
true for you today.
Do you have a difficult goalright now that you're chasing?
Susan (51:57):
Well, I think it's the things we discussed.
It's to further Bimish Chasthrough my foundation that's an
ongoing goal and then also tospread my message of the book,
to encourage people, to inspirepeople, especially the next
generations.
Uh, I, I think that's that'skind of my dream, that through
(52:23):
my example, if I could do it,anybody can do it.
Daniel (52:27):
That's amazing.
I love it.
And then just one one lastspontaneous question I guess I'm
I was wrong is one more whichyou know a three-year process of
writing this book.
It's an incredible book.
I've read it.
I recommend it to everybodylistening.
I hope they go out and get it.
It is phenomenal.
What's one thing that youreally enjoyed about writing
this book?
Susan (52:48):
Oh, that's an easy question.
The answer is that I discoveredso much about my family history
details.
The cutest one was discoveringhow my father learned chess, how
he discovered chess.
So he was a freshman in highschool and one of the first days
(53:09):
of his freshman year a prettygirl came up to him saying that
we need a force on our chessteam.
Come join the chess club.
And he looked at her you knowvery good looking girl and he
says I'd love to, but I don'tknow how to play chess.
And she assured him don't worry, we'll teach you.
(53:33):
We just need a force body.
We cannot have a team withoutfour people.
And the rest is history.
He learned chess a little bit.
Obviously he lost almost allhis games the first year except
the last one.
And you know, by the end ofhigh school he had managed to
win most of his games, butobviously he never took it very
(53:54):
seriously, even afterwards.
But that's how he discoveredchess and without that, you know
, my story may be just verydifferent.
Daniel (54:02):
Without this girl asking your father to play on the team
.
Huh, that's funny.
That's amazing that you didn'tknow that story until you wrote
the book.
Susan (54:09):
Yeah, exactly, and I really discovered a lot more
little details about my familyor even about my own life that I
forgot or didn't know in thefirst place.
Daniel (54:20):
So yeah, Susan, I've enjoyed our conversation so much
.
I'm going to finish our talkwith a series, a segment and a
series of questions that I dowith all of my guests, which is
just a series of rapid questionsare meant to be fun, relatively
easy, although a couple can be,can have people think and
wonder.
So my first question in thatsegment knights or bishops?
Susan (54:44):
I love horses, I love horseback riding, so I guess
knights.
Daniel (54:49):
That's a good reason.
What's your favorite timecontrol to play?
Susan (54:53):
Blitz.
Daniel (54:55):
What's your favorite opening to play as white?
Whichever helps me windepending on the opponent, I
assume yes.
Yeah, what's your favoriteopening to play as black?
I guess same answer ordifferent answer same answer
okay, it really depends who Iplay in one word, how would you
describe your playing style?
(55:16):
Practical?
What's one book you wish morechess players would read?
Susan (55:22):
Rebel Queen.
Daniel (55:23):
Yep, just kidding.
I figured it had to be RebelQueen, right.
Susan (55:27):
No, no.
But on a more serious note ingeneral, the classics.
I think it's really importantto read the books like by
capablanca or alakine orbatwinic, those, even though the
analysis itself may beincorrect in compared to the
(55:47):
engine analysis today.
But the approach, the insights,thinking process you can learn
a lot from and I think thatultimately didn't change that
much.
Daniel (55:59):
Yeah, who is your favorite player of all time?
Susan (56:04):
I don't think I have one.
I like good games and I like tolearn from the best, and each
generation has its best player,so I wouldn't want to name just
one.
Daniel (56:15):
That's fine.
If you could play any greatplayer of the past who is no
longer alive, who would it be?
Susan (56:23):
Well, I'm in a very fortunate position that actually
I did play most of the legends,starting from Smyslov to Tal
and Bobby Fischer, anatolyKarpov, you know, and others you
know, but the ones who I neverhad a chance to meet or play is
probably Capablanca.
Daniel (56:41):
Oh, nice, nice.
If you had to choose a careerother than chess, what would it
be?
Susan (56:48):
Probably being a motivational speaker.
Daniel (56:51):
Excellent choice.
Could definitely see that.
And then my final question ofthis interview if a chess genie
existed and could grant you anyone chess wish, what would you
wish for?
Susan (57:02):
and it can be anything in chess, not just your own skill
probably what I mentioned beforeto have a benefactor that would
support women's chess inparticular in perpetuity by
establishing an endowment.
I think that that could berevolutionary, because one of
the problems why we don't havethat many top-level female chess
(57:27):
players is the numbers game,that there are very few women
who take chess seriously.
So, there are obviously muchless women who play period, but
even of the ones who play, veryfew have really the opportunity
to devote themselves to the gameor to get the right training or
the right playing opportunitiesand I think if we have more of
(57:50):
that, I think we'd see morewomen succeed.
Daniel (57:55):
Yeah, that's a fantastic answer and wish Susan.
I just want to say thank you somuch for being on this show.
It was a great, great honorhaving you.
I so appreciate you taking thetime to talk to me and my
audience, and I mean justeverything you've done in chess
has been special and amazing,and I know that will continue to
(58:16):
be true for you, and Iencourage everyone to check out
your book Rebel Queen.
Thank you so much for being onthe show.
Susan (58:19):
Thank you.
Thank you, my pleasure.
Daniel (58:24):
Thanks for listening.
This has been a production ofmy Business, adult Chess Academy
, and that has a website withthe same name.
If you want to look for it, youcan also find me being way too
active on Twitter by searchingmy username, lona underscore
chess See you next week.
Hey, welcome to the chess experience On this show.
It's all about helping adultimprovers.
I want to make learning chesseasier for you to navigate and I
also want you to have a morefun experience along the way.
I'm your host, daniel Lona, afellow chess amateur.
(00:34):
Let's get to it.
This show is sponsored bychesscom, the world's largest
chess amateur.
Let's get to it.
Or a club member that you justplayed, and you can do so
interactively on the board, withboth of you on video talking to
each other.
It's also a great way to have alesson between a student and a
coach, and you can check thatout on chesscom slash classroom.
Welcome to this week's episode.
(00:57):
We have an incredible guest foryou, the legendary grandmaster
Susan Polgar.
I suspect most of you listeningknow who she is and why she's
so well known in the chesscommunity.
Even still, her list ofaccomplishments and background
is definitely worth sharing.
Susan was born and raised inHungary and she is the oldest
child of the three famous Polgarsisters.
(01:19):
Among her many achievements,susan is the first ever woman in
the world to earn theGrandmaster title by rating and
norms.
In 1992, she won the Women'sWorld Blitz Championship and the
Women's World RapidChampionship.
Then, four years later, in 1996, susan won the Women's World
Chess Championship, and thatgave her the Triple Crown, which
(01:43):
means she was the worldchampion in classical, rapid and
blitz, and she was the firstperson to ever achieve that,
amongst both men and women alike.
Also, during the course ofattending five chess Olympiads,
susan has had an undefeatedrecord of 56 games with zero
losses.
And those are just some of hercompetitive accomplishments, and
(02:07):
that record alone isoutstanding and enough by itself
.
But she's also had anextraordinary post-competitive
chess career.
Over the past few decades, susanhas been amongst the most
influential chess figures in theworld by raising its stature
here in America, as well ashelping to bring more women and
girls into the game everywhere.
One of the ways she's achievedthose goals is that in 2007, she
(02:31):
launched the Susan PolgarInstitute for Chess Excellence,
known as SPICE.
The institute has helped raisemillions of dollars for chess
scholarships and has sponsorednumerous high profile chess
tournaments, like the SPICE Cupand the Susan Polgar Girls
Invitational.
And now Susan has written a newbook, her autobiography called
Rebel Queen.
(02:52):
I've read the book and it'sabsolutely phenomenal.
The challenges Susan faced inher life were more than I ever
realized, which just makes heraccomplishments all the more
impressive.
I couldn't recommend the bookmore highly.
There's a link in the shownotes to purchase her book,
along with links to her socialmedia accounts if you want to
follow her, which you should,and we discuss different topics
(03:13):
from her book at length in ourconversation.
Here's my interview with thegreat Susan Polgar.
I hope you enjoy it.
Hi, susan, I'm so excited tohave you on the podcast.
More than words can express.
Susan (03:28):
I'm excited to have you here.
Thank you so much for talkingwith me today.
How are you doing?
Absolutely.
Daniel (03:32):
Hi Daniel, it's my pleasure to join and share my
story about you beforehand, butI read your book.
It's a phenomenal book, and Ifeel like I know even more now
in a lot of great ways, and soexcited to talk about all of it
with you.
Thank you, yeah, my pleasure.
(03:53):
One thing I wanted to mentionbefore I dive into all my
questions is well, basicallysort of a thank you, which is
that we have connected severaltimes over the years on Twitter,
and this comment is actuallyless about me in that way, but
rather just noticing that notonly do you chat with me, but
you chat with a lot of otheradult club players on Twitter
who are very enthusiastic andexcited about chess.
(04:13):
That's pretty uncommon forpeople at your level, and so I
just want to say thank you forconnecting with all of us in the
community.
Susan (04:20):
Thank you, and maybe you recall a story I shared in my
book actually, where this camefrom.
You know, I remember when I wasjust 12 years old and I was
already a decent player, like2200 master level pretty much,
(04:41):
and I happened to be in Moscowat the time and obviously was
still far from becoming agrandmaster, and I was, as part
of that trip, we were visiting abig tournament ongoing where
Mikhail Tal has alsoparticipated, and obviously I
was just a spectator still inthe beginning of my career,
relatively, and there was thosehuge demonstration boards, you
know, long before computers andall that.
So I was observing the game andmikhail tal, you know, a legend,
(05:05):
you know a hero.
You know he was at the time avery big smoker, you know and in
between his moves.
He was in the hallway, walkingup and down, up and down, and
one cigarette after another, andI, I.
It was my dream that, oh my god, if one day I could play a game
with some legend like that,like Mihaly Natal.
(05:28):
You know what I would get forthat right.
Daniel (05:30):
Yeah.
Susan (05:39):
And I didn't have the courage to go up to him and
asked him.
Well, you know, we are herefrom Budapest, Hungary, and my
daughter's dream is to play agame with you.
Would you consider that?
After your game, and his eyeslit up shockingly, you know, to
my biggest surprise, you know,his eyes lit up and he says yes,
(05:59):
of course.
And well, we thought it willtake a few hours later until he
finishes his game.
I remember he was playing theArmenian grandmaster, Rafael
Vaganyan, at that day, and so hewent in, he went back to the
tournament hall.
Next thing, we know, within 15,20 minutes, he's back out and
he says I'm ready.
(06:20):
I said what, I'm ready.
I said what you know.
How is it possible that he, youknow, offered a draw and, you
know, chose to play me?
And then, anyway, it was a verymemorable moment and you can
read obviously you read the rest, what happened after that in
the book, but everybody elselistening you can find out the
(06:40):
rest of the story.
Yeah, find out the rest of thestory.
Yeah so anyway, that's whatinspired me when you said that
I'm talking to, you know amateurplayers or non-GFs, you know
that, these experiences, andthat particular one with Talis,
that inspired me, that justbecause you're a legend, just
because you're a grandmaster,you know you can be nice to
(07:00):
people, you can share yourpassion of the game and I think
that remained with me for therest of my life.
Daniel (07:07):
That's fantastic.
That's a beautiful story and abeautiful reason to keep doing
that, and I love that it stayedwith you your entire life.
I can probably speak for otheradult amateurs when I say that
when you connect with us, evenhowever brief, just one sentence
, it means the world to us.
It inspires us, you know, andobviously, chess being so
difficult, we need a littleinspiration along the way.
(07:33):
So, thank you so much.
My pleasure, yeah.
So yeah, I'd like to just askyou kind of a broad question of
what you are up to with chessthese days.
What are the activities withinchess now that keep you busy?
Susan (07:41):
Well, as you may imagine, it took a lot of time to write
my memoir and took over threeyears.
So, now that the baby is bornand the book is done and the
release is happening, I'm veryproud of it, and that's what it
takes most of my time nowadaysto you know to talk to people
(08:02):
about it, to promote it, toshare the message of the book,
which is basically that itdoesn't matter how difficult
something seems to be, if youhave the passion for it, you're
willing to work hard at it andyou'll persevere.
Nothing is impossible.
That's my message, and the bookis just, of course, a vehicle
(08:25):
to spread this message.
Talks like this one is anotheravenue, and I'm hoping that
actually even there will be amovie made out of my story to
inspire even more people.
Daniel (08:37):
Oh, that's great.
Well, on that last point, well,first of all, that would be
amazing.
I would love to see a movie ofyour book and your story.
I noticed you recently postedon social media a picture of you
in Hollywood.
Does that have anything to dowith it?
Was there any momentum tryingto be gathered there?
Susan (08:54):
There is some, yes, there is some interest, but as I
learned over the years,especially in recent years,
Hollywood's wheels turn ratherslowly, and especially when a
lot of things are happening.
First it was the pandemic, andthen they had the strike of the
you know guilt, and lately thevery unfortunate and tragic
(09:17):
fires.
So you know, things are, youknow, will happen in their own
time, I guess.
Daniel (09:23):
Sure, well, in the meantime, I'll cross my fingers
for it.
And also, in the meantime, wehave this amazing new book by
you for everyone to read, andyeah, let's dive into that.
So, on March 11th, for everyonewho's listening, on March 11th
it'll be released and it'scalled Rebel Queen.
There'll be a link to that bookto purchase in the show notes
for everyone listening, thatbook to purchase in the show
(09:44):
notes for everyone listening.
What made you say that?
Well, I guess I was going tosay now, but you said it was a
three-year journey putting thistogether, but let's just say
three years ago at that time,what made you say that that was
the right time to publish yourstory?
Susan (09:53):
Well, as you know, after I retired from competitive play,
I had a coaching career, andwhen I retired from that as well
, from Webster University,that's when, finally, I had more
time and I wanted to make sureI do a good job at it and I'm
not rushing it, I can focus onit without needing to divide my
attention, you know, to a jobwith the university.
(10:16):
So I had time to think about itmore and taking my time, which
I did, and I guess that's why Iwanted to wait until I had the
time to do it.
Daniel (10:27):
Sure, you also have what , in my opinion, is the best
title for a chess book that I'veever come across, which is
Rebel Queen.
As awesome as that sounds,there's probably a lot of great
meaning in that title for you.
In what ways do you consideryourself a rebel?
Susan (10:43):
Well, obviously no person , or definitely no four-year-old
, you know, starts her life as arebel.
It's really the circumstancesthat forced me to become one.
I was brought up in a familywhere the sense of justice and
fairness had a very strong uhrole and very important part Uh,
(11:07):
probably not least for the factthat, uh the tragic, uh
historic uh background of myfamily, I'm a third generation
Holocaust survivor.
Daniel (11:17):
Yeah.
Susan (11:18):
And we lost over 300 members of our extended family
in the in the Holocaust and mygrandparents who were the few
fortunate ones to return fromthose horrific places and times.
It remained with them, thosememories.
Obviously it was the biggestinjustice and unfairness.
And therefore, also, growing upin a then communist country,
(11:44):
Hungary, their message was thateverybody's equal and in that
sense, you know, it was alsoingrazing in people, the message
that everybody should be equal.
So whenever I felt that I'mbeing unfairly wronged and
discriminated against and youknow whether it's sexism or
(12:08):
anti-Semitism or you know thingsthat the Trust Federation was
doing it was an automaticreaction that I have to fight
the unfairness, the injustice.
And you know, slowly, slowly,it became as the story of my
life.
You know that, you know, in thememory of my family members who
(12:28):
couldn't fight and never cameback from the horrors of
Auschwitz.
You know, in that honor, Injust, also in hopes of fighting
the right fight for the rightcause for the future generations
, including my sisters.
So when I was really young and Iwasn't allowed to compete with
(12:49):
boys in certain tournaments,because or I was, they said I
was too young, I cannot playthis tournament, you know I felt
, but why not?
And it kind of became themessage.
You know the fight, thestruggle of my life when I felt
that something is unfair,something is unjust.
You know, let me fight it.
And to say the truth, I had ahefty price to pay, both
(13:14):
personally and professionally.
But looking back all theseyears later I would obviously do
it all over again.
It was a worthwhile fight, thatmy sisters didn't have to go
through all that and the futuregenerations had a much easier
time being a woman chess player.
Daniel (13:33):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
You definitely paved the wayfor a lot of people.
So it sounds like you're sayingthat being a rebel wasn't
something you really ever soughtout to do.
It wasn't something you said,oh, I would love to be one of
those, but rather thecircumstances demanded it, and
when the circumstances werethere, you felt it your
obligation to rise up to that.
Susan (13:54):
Yes, absolutely.
Daniel (13:55):
So, yeah, I'd like to spend a little time on your
early years in chess.
I think people who are aware ofyour story are, even if they
haven't read the book.
Many people probably know aboutyour father's unique approach
to helping you and your sistersucceed in chess, and that in of
itself is interesting, butthere's another element of it
that interested me, which isthat he combined with you and
(14:17):
your sisters.
His approach worked.
You were all extremelysuccessful.
And yet many parents over thedecades have wanted to raise
chess superstars, but few havedone so, even though your father
kind of, to some degree, laidout a model.
So why do you think yourfather's approach was successful
when most other parents'attempts fell short?
Susan (14:37):
Well, my father was a visionary and he believed very
much in his theories.
He wrote a book about it, raisea Genius.
That was published in Hungarianmany years ago.
And first of all I'd like toclarify a myth that a lot of
places have been writtenincorrectly.
My father is not a master chessplayer, as some thought.
(14:59):
There has been another personby the same last name in Hungary
who has been a master.
Probably that's what caused theconfusion, but that was not my
father.
He was just a casual player inhigh school and then he has not
played much after that.
Once I showed interest in chess, he became kind of a chess punk
(15:20):
, you know, and he startedlearning with me and started
collecting chess books and allthat.
But, to answer your question,he was fantastic in giving me
his love of chess, his passionfor chess, and I think that's
the key.
You know that when you lovesomething, then practicing that
(15:43):
or studying that, working atthat, doesn't feel like work.
Daniel (15:47):
Right.
Susan (15:47):
It feels like you're enjoying yourself, you're doing
your hobby.
In fact, I just listenedrecently an interview with
Magnus Carlsen where he saidexactly the same thing that he
chases his hobby.
He never felt like he wasworking.
You know, and I was kind of thesame way, and I think that was
kind of the genius of my father,that he knew how to make chess
(16:10):
fun for me even at a very earlyage, when I was still three,
four years old, and also at thesame time he instilled it of me,
in me, the value of hard work,of me in me the value of hard
work.
(16:34):
And at a very young age he hadthe philosophy that every night
when you go to bed you shouldfeel that you have a little bit
of more knowledge than you hadthat morning when you woke up.
And if that keeps repeating andrepeating and accumulating,
eventually that will bringpositive results.
You can, you know, bear thefruits of that.
And I saw that happening right,even if not, even if I felt
(16:57):
that I knew a little more everyday.
But the result may not happenthe next day, but soon enough I
saw the fruits of my labor, soto say, and that belief that
hard work pays off.
That became kind of part of meat a very early age and that
(17:19):
made me believe that what I'mdoing is the right thing, even
if there are temporary setbacksor losses or disappointments.
That belief that it's justlogical right, that if you keep
learning and other people don'tlearn, you will be ahead of
those people on that particularsubject right.
Daniel (17:39):
Right.
Susan (17:41):
And that's just simple logic that even a four or
five-year-old could comprehendand understand, kept me going
and, as a result, keptjustifying this belief that
practice makes master, you know,as my father used to say.
You know, kept me movingforward.
Moving forward now to yourquestion as to why so many other
(18:04):
parents fall short despitehaving the belief, is largely
because they lose patience.
They are looking for a shortcutand when you lose patience,
what happens is you.
You know you become maybe.
You know you blame the child,you scold the child and the
(18:24):
child loses the passion for thegame and either a child quits
altogether or sometimes theparents quit.
You know putting in effort andsacrifices for paying coaches or
taking them to tournament orall those things.
You know that's necessary,obviously, to succeed eventually
(18:46):
, and it's a very long-termproject.
You know like, I started toplay at age four and, you know,
let's say, won my first worldchampionship title for junior
level when I was 12.
So even if you just look atthat, it's a long time.
It's an eight-year period andmy parents sacrificed a
(19:06):
tremendous amount, you know, innot just resources that was
limited, but more so, even withtheir time and effort.
You know when other parents.
You know, after they come backfrom work, you know they spend
time with friends, maybe, or goto a movie or have a beer with
friends or try to save up for acar or a summer home.
(19:30):
That's not what my parents did,you know.
They kind of put all theirefforts in me because I'm
significantly older than mysister, who came only much later
, older than my sister who cameonly much later, and you know
they put in all their effortsand resources, money and time in
my chest.
You know they didn't have a car.
You know, throughout all mychildhood In fact, I was the
(19:53):
first one who had a car, much,much later, obviously, and we
didn't have a summer home.
Also, until the kids werepretty much grown up already, he
had very little time to spendwith friends or even family.
As a matter of fact.
In fact, my father often had asecond or a third job to save up
(20:14):
money for being able to take meto tournaments or pay for
coaches or chess books.
Even so, it's a tremendoussacrifice.
From more so, the parent'sperspective and I think a lot of
parents either don't evenrealize it how much sacrifice it
really takes to succeed on anextreme level, or they are not
(20:38):
willing to do it or unable to doit for one reason or another.
Daniel (20:42):
Yeah, those are lots of great insights there into your
father's approach.
There's something you said justnow, as well as in the book,
that I think is reallyfascinating, which is that for
as eager as your father was tosee you all succeed, he didn't
chastise you if you mademistakes or lost games.
If I'm remembering correctly,it was more just important that
(21:04):
you showed up and put in thework that was asked, but he
didn't really.
Susan (21:07):
Yeah, exactly that was his approach that whatever work
that you can do and you shoulddo is before it's in the
training time.
So when, when you go to atournament or to a game, you
have to be calm and you have tobe able to show off what you
learned, it's the training timewhen he was sometimes, you know,
(21:31):
reminding us of reminding me ofthat.
Work harder, focus more.
You know, do your very best intraining as well, because
whatever you do in training willbe reflected in the result of
the tournament.
So that's where he was, let'ssay, tough or strict when it
came to training, but when itcomes to the tournament or the
(21:55):
result of the game, all he wouldsay is well, you see, you have
to work harder, you, you knowyou have to work more, or things
like that, but not the, youknow, the game itself.
or when I was very young, if Ididn't focus, you know yeah
because when I was really young,at in the beginning, you know,
I was very curious, you know,and I was in that chess club and
(22:16):
you know, door opens and I waswondering, oh, who came in.
You know, door opens and I waswondering, oh, who came in.
Daniel (22:21):
You know, what is the?
Susan (22:22):
person wearing.
You know, things like that.
You know so that he wouldobviously be not happy about.
But it's not the result itself,but it's the why about the
result.
Daniel (22:35):
Sure, yeah, and I know you know in your book you talk a
lot about you know how yourfather helped you and your
sisters excel at chess and we'retalking about it here and he
deserves a lot of amazing creditfor what he did.
That said, I still want to giveyou your credit and focus a bit
on you and your own attributesto all that you've accomplished.
(22:56):
What do you feel separate fromwhat he gave you, allowed you to
achieve what you've achieved?
Susan (23:02):
Well, I think, in addition to the passion and the
work ethic which you just talkedabout, it's that I developed
this never give up attitude, andI think that's really, really
key.
I guess I didn't like to lose,I enjoyed winning, so that's
part of it, of course, but it'sa little bit more than that,
(23:27):
because obviously nobody likesto lose.
It just somehow became strongerthat, even in positions when
others may resign, or even ifnot literally resign, but
mentally resign, I realized,maybe partly because I had
situations when I thought I'mwinning right and all of a
sudden my opponent tricked melast minute and I felt how
(23:52):
painful that was to me and Isaid, okay, I'm going to learn
from this.
So what does it mean?
A game is never over until it'sover.
So what does it mean A game isnever over until it's over, and
I'm going to fight until I feelthat is the last chance to turn
this around.
And soon enough I realized thatothers are no different than me,
(24:13):
in some ways right, and thereis a possibility that somebody
else also may get overconfidentand make a mistake, even in a
seemingly winning position, andI may save the game to a draw or
occasionally even turn it allaround and win the game, and I
(24:51):
figured, you know, even if I cansave half a was kind of my own
discovery, so to say, somehow amethod for myself on how to
handle those adversities, hownot to make myself overly upset
but rather in fact use it asfuel to prove people wrong.
(25:11):
So I think those are kind ofthe two qualities that I learned
to develop on my own thathelped me succeed, and also the
fact that I learned to takepride in what I do.
You know, if I do something, Ilike to do it right, and that's
whether I cook a good Hungarianmeal or you know anything else I
(25:33):
do.
I like to do things right ornot to do it at all.
Daniel (25:36):
Yeah, I mean this actually overlaps with the next
question I was going to ask youbut you've already identified it
which is this never-give-inattitude that you have.
But I'm going to reframe thequestion just a little bit,
since you covered that groundsomewhat.
It seems to me that you wereable to take that attitude
beyond just the chessboard and,as you said, the challenges that
(26:01):
you faced personally, and I wasstruck by these in the book,
how much there was this isdefinitely I didn't fully
realize the extent of it until Iread your book that throughout
the 70s and 80s, facingresistance from chess
institutions themselves theHungarian Chess Federation, FIDE
but you still took that nevergiven attitude beyond just the
board and towards thosechallenges, and I think that's
(26:23):
incredible.
So do you feel like chesshelped develop that attitude for
you in other areas of life thatwould be needed for you?
Susan (26:32):
Probably so.
Yes, and I remember and I thinkthe story I also mentioned in
the book that you know becauseof our difficult family history
mention in the book that youknow because of our difficult
family history.
I remember my grandma, mymaternal grandma, had made a big
impact on me that when I hadtough times, you know, in my
(26:54):
career or even personally, shemanaged to put things in
perspective for me.
She reminded me that if youthink you have it tough, you
don't understand what tough is,clearly referring back to the
Holocaust times that she had toendure and luckily survive.
So I think putting things inperspective became a very
(27:18):
important part of my life.
That, whether I lose a painfulgame or even later on in my
personal life, a breakup orsomething like that, putting
things in perspective I think isa really important thing and
also something that eventually Ilearned throughout my life,
(27:38):
probably more so in my adultlife, is the importance of
balance, and that's whetherintellectual pursuits versus
physical fitness, spending timeon your career versus your
family or many different partsof life.
I think putting things inperspective and finding the
(28:00):
right balance or even in chessright between attacking and
defending or things like that,spending time on different
aspects of the game.
So finding that balance, Ithink, is key.
Daniel (28:13):
Yeah, yeah.
So now I just want to talkabout your career a little bit
more broadly and beyond evenjust the early years.
It sounded like reading yourbook that for a long time you
were on a mission to earn the GMtitle and you wrote that
earning that title was what youhad wanted more than anything.
And a few things struck meabout it, but one of those is
(28:35):
that with your talent, I feltlike you could have had a whole
range of different goals to setyour sights on as a chess player
, and you had chosen the GMtitle as your kind of your
guiding light.
Why was the GM title the mostimportant one for you during
those years?
Susan (28:55):
Well, I was growing up in an environment where, whether
it's in the chess clubs, whetherit's the chess federation, the
media at large, they werelooking at me, looking at women
chess players at large, thatwhat kind of crazy idea it is
for a woman trying to become anayah, forget a gm or or world
(29:16):
champion right, it's.
It's like impossible.
It's like if I was saying thatI want to go to the moon and it
really bothered me that I didn'tunderstand why.
You know, just because mygender is not male, it's, why
should a woman not be able to dothat?
And I really, really wanted toshow the world and even women,
(29:38):
to be honest, because I rememberwhen I was already like master
level player and I was talkingto some other pretty good female
chess players and theyliterally did not believe in
themselves or in the femalegender as such, that we are
capable of accomplishing that,and I really took it as my
(30:01):
mission to prove them wrong Atsome point in my career.
There were two other women whogot awarded the title, but they
haven't fully completed all thenorms and rating requirements,
although they are legendaryworld champions obviously Nanaka
Prindashvili and MayaChiburdanidze, dear friends of
mine, great players, butnevertheless they always had
(30:24):
that little shadow behind theirGM title that they got it partly
because they were female worldchampions.
And I wanted to do it as theguys do it, you know, by all the
norm requirements or the ratingrequirements, and I was just
honestly shocked that nobody didit before me.
But I said, okay, let me do it,you know.
(30:46):
And I was so, so, so thrilledwhen, finally, in January 1991,
I made my first I mean sorry,last GM norm and became the
first woman to accomplish thatfeat.
I was really determined to showthe world that that is possible
.
Daniel (31:05):
Yeah, given that, as you said before you, there hadn't
been a woman who had achieved itthrough the norms and rating
Right, did you ever have anyself-doubt about that?
Or were you confident and justknew it was a matter of when?
Susan (31:19):
I was pretty confident, to be honest, because I'm a very
logical person and you know,just like I believe that if you
practice something you'll getgood at it.
I believe that I'm seeing otherIMs and GMs games.
I see they make plenty ofmistakes as well.
They are human, just like me,right?
(31:39):
So I always had this why notattitude?
You know, it's not like youknow they have three hands or
two brains, or you know what Imean.
It's like we kind of have thesame tools when it comes to
chess.
It's a matter of, I think, howmuch effort you put in in
training and then obviously, howmuch discipline you have during
(32:02):
the games or the tournamentsthemselves.
And yeah, I never reallydoubted it.
I thought, and I think thatthat was kind of a very
important thing, that I neverdoubted it.
It was only a matter of time.
Yeah, I thought becoming worldchampion that's different.
You know, I think there youneed a little bit of extra
factor.
I mean overall world champion,you know, to be the very best in
(32:25):
the whole entire planet, youneed that X factor.
you know whether it be yournerves, whether your energy
level, whether talent whateveror a combination of different
things.
You need to have everything.
All the stars need to align,you know, to become the overall
world champion and obviouslyeven in our history we have only
(32:48):
about, I think, 20 or so peoplethat achieve that, even if we
count the knockout champions.
So it's an extremely hard thing, but I think, to become a
grandmaster, I think literallyany healthy person who has the
passion and is willing to workhard for it can achieve.
Daniel (33:08):
That's wonderful.
I love hearing that.
Susan, as I was reading yourbook, I was just in awe of all
the different major victoriesyou had competitively, whether
over specific individuals or foran entire event, such that it's
difficult to pick one to talkabout.
So I'm curious, then whatstands out to you as being
(33:29):
meaningful, a meaningful victory, whether it was against an
individual or winning an event.
When you look back on yourcareer, what do you remember
most fondly?
Susan (33:38):
Well, if I just have to pick one game that is really
memorable is probably againstthe legendary Yugoslav
grandmaster, yugomir Ubojevic,who was number three in his peak
in the world.
And the reason why that gamestands out not just because he
was a much higher rated playerat the time we played and that
(34:00):
he was a legendary player, butalso that prior to the
tournament that we played thatgame and it was a super
tournament with Anatoly Karpovand other top players of the
time he said in an interviewthat he was questioning the
organizers that how is itpossible that they are inviting
female player.
(34:21):
And, you know, I felt maybe Ishould show him why.
And and the fact that Isucceeded in doing so, and not
not just the result that I won,but the fashion that I was able
to win that game.
It really is very dear to myheart to this day.
(34:41):
It's a nice game where I kind ofmade it look like I was a much
higher rated player in realitythan he was, and as of my
results obviously is to winningthe Triple Crown, which is
meaning winning the Blitz, rapidand Classical World
Championships, and, surprisingly, I was actually the first
(35:04):
person to ever to complete thattrifecta and the second person
who was able to win in all threeformats was, 18 years later,
magnus Carlsen, and then, justvery recently, a couple months
ago, juven Jun was the secondwoman to do it.
So, interestingly, it's a veryhard thing to do, just like in,
(35:32):
let's say, racing.
You know, it doesn't happenreally that a marathon runner
would also win the hundred meterdash as well as the 5k.
I see so it's kind of somewhatrequires different skills to be
really good in blitz and inclassical time control as well
as in rapid.
So probably that's that'sreally memorable.
And then, of course, that I'mreally proud that I'm still the
(35:54):
only person to have all sixcrowns, in addition to having
the triple crown, winning ChessOlympiad, the team gold medal as
well as individual gold andbeing a number one player in the
world.
So I'm really proud of thosethings I accomplished.
Daniel (36:12):
Rightfully so.
Yeah, just a question aboutthat.
As you said, it doesn't happenoften.
The triple crown doesn't happenoften because it's a little bit
of a different skill set, evenat that level.
So did you feel like you had toclose the gap in one of them, a
little bit like train a littleharder, say in Rapid or Blitz,
or were you just naturally ableto do all three?
Susan (36:30):
Well, actually I was fortunate because I grew up with
the school of thought thatBronstein and Mikhail Tal
represented, in contrary to,let's say, the Botvinnik School
of Chess.
That was forbidding to playblitz.
So it was a very controversialtopic when I was growing up in
the 1970s because a lot ofcoaches forbid their students to
(36:53):
play chess, based on theBotvinnik recommendation.
But my father, who wascoordinating my training, even
though he wasn't my main coachafter a while he was very much
in the school that believed thatpractice is practice, chess is
chess and Blitz is a good way toactually get a lot of practice
(37:16):
in, to practice your openings inmany games.
Obviously it would take foreverto try out your different
openings in classical games thatnobody would have the time to
do so.
In blitz you can play 10 20games in the same time as in one
classical game.
So actually my trainingconsisted of a significant
(37:38):
amount of Blitz practice as well.
Rapid didn't really exist forthe, I guess, first 10 decade of
my life really, or even furtherthan that, but Blitz was a very
important part of my chesttraining and I think that helped
obviously.
Daniel (37:57):
I see.
One thing that stood out to mefrom your book is that you said
one of your favorite ways to winin your early years was to come
back from a losing position.
I'm curious if that stayed truefor you throughout your career.
Susan (38:11):
Well, it was more so obviously in the early years
that you know it was, I guess,just psychologically felt good
to come back from the dead youknow bouncing kiss goodbye
already to a game that okay.
What to do?
I'm losing, you know, and then,all of a sudden, if a window of
opportunity shows up where youknow, it felt really good to
(38:34):
take advantage of it.
Of course, I was on the otherside of it many times as well,
so it was a nice feeling, but ofcourse I learned soon enough
that I'd rather try to avoidgetting there in first place as
of back positions.
Daniel (38:51):
Did something replace it ?
Was there like later, in later,later years, as you say?
I mean, you don't want to getinto a losing position anyway,
but was there a different typeof win that eventually became
your favorite?
Susan (39:05):
Well, I really enjoy games I win when it's a
brilliant combination that endsthe game, like in that.
My probably all-time favoritegame is against Maja
Ciburdanidze.
That I played in the CalviaChess Olympiad in 2004, where I
made a series of sacrifices thatled to a winning endgame.
(39:29):
Yeah, that's really a goodfeeling.
Unfortunately, that's a rareoccasion, I think, in most
people's career.
Daniel (39:36):
So, talking about the later years of your competitive
career now, in 1996, you won theWorld's Chess Championship, but
unfortunately in 1999, fideprevented you from defending
your title by insisting that theevent be held during a time
when you needed to recover fromyour pregnancy, and in your book
you said that at that point youhad had enough of professional
(39:58):
chess.
I'm curious if you would talk alittle bit about this period
for when you decided not topursue competitive chess anymore
, specifically like how much ofthat was just being fed up with
frustrating treatment afterfrustrating treatment from chess
federations, versus justfeeling like you had
accomplished most of what youhad wanted to competitively
anyhow at that point.
Susan (40:18):
Well, probably a little bit of both, and also the fact,
being a brand new mother, Iwanted to take care the best I
can for my son and also livingin America by that time I really
felt that me winning morechampionships are not
(40:39):
necessarily the best way tospend my time.
I really felt that, using mycelebrity status, at least
within the world of chess, maybeI have the opportunity to
spread the word about chess, toincrease the popularity of the
game, to become an ambassadorfor the game, I think, while
(41:01):
there are always new championsand I could win more
championships, but I felt thatat the time there weren't enough
good ambassadors for the gameand that became my new passion
and my motivation to try to getchess to the mainstream.
And and I'm so happy to seethat obviously partly some to
(41:23):
due to my activities, but notjust.
Obviously there are plenty ofother people today who do a
great job and chess has become,I don't know, maybe a hundred
times more popular than in themid-90s.
It was.
So what happened in thepopularity of chess in America
in the 1972-1975 time?
(41:44):
When Bobby Fischer became worldchampion?
Chess was at an all-time highin popularity.
It was in all kinds of eveningshows.
It was all over in front pagesof different magazines, in
mainstream magazines, you know.
And then, unfortunately, afterBobby Fischer retired and he was
(42:05):
very controversial by the timeI moved to the US in the well,
about 25 years later, all ofthat kind of vanished and chess
was viewed kind of as a sportfor geeks, you know, intelligent
people, but kind of somewhatstrange people, it's almost
(42:27):
exclusively men.
So there was on one hand notmuch popularity to it and that
had some negative connotationsto it as well.
And you know as much as I lovechess, it really hurt me and I I
thought I wanted to dosomething about it to change the
perception, to get it the gamea a better rap and and get it
(42:50):
more popular.
And and that is why I Iparticipated and created a
number of events.
You know I had the Battle ofthe Sexes.
I had Chess for Peace, whichinvolved not just Anatoly Karpov
and myself but former RussianPresident Gorbachev.
I did a world record simul inFlorida where I played 326
(43:15):
opponents simultaneously.
That got mainstream attention.
So I was looking out foractivities and events that
raises attention, positiveattention for the game, and so
that kind of became my missionbeyond being just a player.
Daniel (43:33):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Beyond being just a player.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I mean that part of your careeris just as impressive and
exciting to me as yourcompetitive history.
And yeah, you mentioned youtalk about that in the book that
you know around that time asyou're not competing as much
anymore basically that you wantto elevate the stature of
professional chess in Americaand I mean that's such an
(43:56):
incredible goal.
I mean, of course I'm biased asa chess fan, but I love that as
a goal and I'm just curiouswhat are some of the ways that
you feel you've moved thecountry in that direction?
Susan (44:06):
But in addition to the events I already just mentioned,
also, I founded the SusanPolgar Foundation in 2002.
And through the foundation wedid a lot of events.
We were trying to expand thegrassroots movement.
There were very few girls andwomen playing chess at the time.
In fact, my foundation cameabout when the then executive
(44:29):
director of the United StatesChess Federation, frank Nero,
approached me.
United States Chess Federation.
Frank Nero approached me whenrealized that there were under
1% of the membership of the USChess Federation only who are
female.
Less than 1%.
Daniel (44:43):
Wow.
Susan (44:44):
This is 2002.
And he asked me, helped me to dosomething about it.
And that's when my foundationwas born with the number one
purpose to promote chess andespecially for girls.
And I'm very proud and happy tosay that when we went back 10
(45:04):
years later and checked thenumbers, all of a sudden, 10
years later, there were alreadyabout 15% of the members of the
US Chess Federation female.
So we made a progress and Iguess, partly through my
foundation's efforts, the firstall-girls national tournament
(45:24):
championship was approved for myfoundation, the Susan Polga
Foundation's Girls Invitational,and I'm proud to say that now
we're already in over 20 yearsrunning that event and through
that and other various events ofmy foundation and I'm proud to
say that now we're already inover 20 years running that event
and through that and othervarious events of my foundation,
through our partneruniversities, we have awarded
(45:46):
over $7 million in scholarshipsand cash prizes as well.
So you know, I've tried,anywhere and everywhere I went,
to spread a good word about andI'm really happy that I'm
finding more and more partners,whether it's in Silicon Valley
or Hollywood or in the media,that more and more people
(46:07):
support chess and there are moreand more people playing chess
With.
That said, obviously theappearance of the internet and
even the Netflix series Queen'sGambit was very helpful to have
a lot more people interested inchess and follow chess today.
Daniel (46:29):
Well, I mean, that's incredible to take the USCF
membership from 1% to 15% inabout 10 years.
Is that right, about 10 years?
Susan (46:38):
I believe so yes.
That's absolutely incredible,yeah and the other aspect of
that conversation with theexecutive director then was that
he managed to convince me tocome out of retirement and also
to play for the United Statesjust one time.
So, to play for the UnitedStates just one time, and indeed
(46:59):
in 2004, I played for the USflag.
Obviously, I was already motherof two US citizen babies, who
were born here in the US.
It was my second home and youknow we were hoping that, with
the example of the US femalesoccer team when they won the
World Cup with Mia Hamm, if wemanaged to come back with the
(47:21):
medals from the Chess Olympiad,then maybe we could have a
similar effect in promotingchess for girls in America,
chess for girls in America.
And so actually I'm proud tosay that I came back with four
medals.
In addition to the team medal,I won also two gold medals
individually, and it was.
(47:44):
It could have been even morehelpful than it was that's a
whole other story but it didn'thelp as much as I hope it would,
but nevertheless it helped myfoundation raise visibility for
chess for girls in the US.
Daniel (48:00):
Well, that's.
A very exciting part of thebook to me was when you I don't
know if it's fair to say cameback out of retirement I don't
know if that's the appropriatephrase but when you returned to
competitive chess, at least forrepresenting the US women's team
in the Olympiad.
That was such an exciting storyMakes me wish I had been back
into chess at that time in mylife and could have witnessed it
(48:20):
happen in real time.
It just seemed amazing.
But anyway, what do you see inthe chess world right now that
makes you feel optimistic aboutwomen and girls in the game?
Susan (48:31):
Well, I think the fact that there is a lot more support
for women's events, there is alot better prizes than in my
days, also the fact that thereare a lot more girls playing I
think it's very positive in mydays that the few girls who did
(48:52):
play, they used to be the onlyones in that chess club and they
used to give up.
Now that at least there is acommunity that supports each
other.
So usually each of the femalechess players has some friends
you know who are also femalechess players and they support
(49:13):
each other in need and theydon't feel lonely.
I I really felt that it was avery unnatural, almost unhealthy
environment when the femaleplayers like myself literally
were the only female at thechess club or the only female at
most of my tournaments growingup.
It's a very unnaturalenvironment which which caused,
(49:35):
of course, a lot of you know,difficult situations, including
sexual harassment and even somedangerous situations, as I write
about it in my book.
But I think on that end thingsare still not perfect but have
greatly improved throughout mylifetime.
Daniel (49:53):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely it is.
I mean, from my perspective,it's interesting to read about
the times in your book when youknow these issues were even
worse for you and for otherwomen and girls, and so it's
clear that progress has beenmade, and yet much more progress
still needs to be made.
So, on that point, what do youthink still needs the most
(50:14):
attention or improvement forwomen and girls in chess?
Susan (50:17):
Well, I think prizes could still be improved, just
like in tennis, you know, prizesfor US Open are the same for
men and women, and because it'snot really because of the exact
perfection of the game, you knowthat I think is being judged.
Obviously, you know, djokovic,you know, would be a better
(50:41):
tennis player than, let's say,the the best female players,
right?
It's not about that.
You know, if you want to seeperfect games, you may as well
look at the computers playingeach other, right?
so it's so because of that, Ithink if there would be similar
prizes, that would be one thingthat definitely could be
improved.
(51:01):
But also, you know, in a dreamworld, you know if, let's say,
there would be a benefactor whowould, let's say, give a 10
million dollar endowment andthen you know the profits income
from that endowment couldsponsor, you know, the chess
training of the next generationof female chess players.
So you know, that's kind of adream that may or may not come
(51:25):
true, but that definitely couldimprove.
Daniel (51:28):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, susan.
There's like one big question Istill want to ask you like to
kind of close the main part ofour interview out, and it's
based on a quote from your bookthat I really liked, which is as
you were describing yourcompetitive years in chess.
You said that few things giveyou more pleasure than chasing a
difficult goal.
That quote stood out to me.
(51:49):
I absolutely love thatstatement, assuming that's still
true for you today.
Do you have a difficult goalright now that you're chasing?
Susan (51:57):
Well, I think it's the things we discussed.
It's to further Bimish Chasthrough my foundation that's an
ongoing goal and then also tospread my message of the book,
to encourage people, to inspirepeople, especially the next
generations.
Uh, I, I think that's that'skind of my dream, that through
(52:23):
my example, if I could do it,anybody can do it.
Daniel (52:27):
That's amazing.
I love it.
And then just one one lastspontaneous question I guess I'm
I was wrong is one more whichyou know a three-year process of
writing this book.
It's an incredible book.
I've read it.
I recommend it to everybodylistening.
I hope they go out and get it.
It is phenomenal.
What's one thing that youreally enjoyed about writing
this book?
Susan (52:48):
Oh, that's an easy question.
The answer is that I discoveredso much about my family history
details.
The cutest one was discoveringhow my father learned chess, how
he discovered chess.
So he was a freshman in highschool and one of the first days
(53:09):
of his freshman year a prettygirl came up to him saying that
we need a force on our chessteam.
Come join the chess club.
And he looked at her you knowvery good looking girl and he
says I'd love to, but I don'tknow how to play chess.
And she assured him don't worry, we'll teach you.
(53:33):
We just need a force body.
We cannot have a team withoutfour people.
And the rest is history.
He learned chess a little bit.
Obviously he lost almost allhis games the first year except
the last one.
And you know, by the end ofhigh school he had managed to
win most of his games, butobviously he never took it very
(53:54):
seriously, even afterwards.
But that's how he discoveredchess and without that, you know
, my story may be just verydifferent.
Daniel (54:02):
Without this girl asking your father to play on the team
.
Huh, that's funny.
That's amazing that you didn'tknow that story until you wrote
the book.
Susan (54:09):
Yeah, exactly, and I really discovered a lot more
little details about my familyor even about my own life that I
forgot or didn't know in thefirst place.
Daniel (54:20):
So yeah, Susan, I've enjoyed our conversation so much
.
I'm going to finish our talkwith a series, a segment and a
series of questions that I dowith all of my guests, which is
just a series of rapid questionsare meant to be fun, relatively
easy, although a couple can be,can have people think and
wonder.
So my first question in thatsegment knights or bishops?
Susan (54:44):
I love horses, I love horseback riding, so I guess
knights.
Daniel (54:49):
That's a good reason.
What's your favorite timecontrol to play?
Susan (54:53):
Blitz.
Daniel (54:55):
What's your favorite opening to play as white?
Whichever helps me windepending on the opponent, I
assume yes.
Yeah, what's your favoriteopening to play as black?
I guess same answer ordifferent answer same answer
okay, it really depends who Iplay in one word, how would you
describe your playing style?
(55:16):
Practical?
What's one book you wish morechess players would read?
Susan (55:22):
Rebel Queen.
Daniel (55:23):
Yep, just kidding.
I figured it had to be RebelQueen, right.
Susan (55:27):
No, no.
But on a more serious note ingeneral, the classics.
I think it's really importantto read the books like by
capablanca or alakine orbatwinic, those, even though the
analysis itself may beincorrect in compared to the
(55:47):
engine analysis today.
But the approach, the insights,thinking process you can learn
a lot from and I think thatultimately didn't change that
much.
Daniel (55:59):
Yeah, who is your favorite player of all time?
Susan (56:04):
I don't think I have one.
I like good games and I like tolearn from the best, and each
generation has its best player,so I wouldn't want to name just
one.
Daniel (56:15):
That's fine.
If you could play any greatplayer of the past who is no
longer alive, who would it be?
Susan (56:23):
Well, I'm in a very fortunate position that actually
I did play most of the legends,starting from Smyslov to Tal
and Bobby Fischer, anatolyKarpov, you know, and others you
know, but the ones who I neverhad a chance to meet or play is
probably Capablanca.
Daniel (56:41):
Oh, nice, nice.
If you had to choose a careerother than chess, what would it
be?
Susan (56:48):
Probably being a motivational speaker.
Daniel (56:51):
Excellent choice.
Could definitely see that.
And then my final question ofthis interview if a chess genie
existed and could grant you anyone chess wish, what would you
wish for?
Susan (57:02):
and it can be anything in chess, not just your own skill
probably what I mentioned beforeto have a benefactor that would
support women's chess inparticular in perpetuity by
establishing an endowment.
I think that that could berevolutionary, because one of
the problems why we don't havethat many top-level female chess
(57:27):
players is the numbers game,that there are very few women
who take chess seriously.
So, there are obviously muchless women who play period, but
even of the ones who play, veryfew have really the opportunity
to devote themselves to the gameor to get the right training or
the right playing opportunitiesand I think if we have more of
(57:50):
that, I think we'd see morewomen succeed.
Daniel (57:55):
Yeah, that's a fantastic answer and wish Susan.
I just want to say thank you somuch for being on this show.
It was a great, great honorhaving you.
I so appreciate you taking thetime to talk to me and my
audience, and I mean justeverything you've done in chess
has been special and amazing,and I know that will continue to
(58:16):
be true for you, and Iencourage everyone to check out
your book Rebel Queen.
Thank you so much for being onthe show.
Susan (58:19):
Thank you.
Thank you, my pleasure.
Daniel (58:24):
Thanks for listening.
This has been a production ofmy Business, adult Chess Academy
, and that has a website withthe same name.
If you want to look for it, youcan also find me being way too
active on Twitter by searchingmy username, lona underscore
chess See you next week.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.