February 4, 2025 • 40 mins
115 She learned the game at 19. The next year she became a titled player with an 1800+ FIDE rating. Then, several years later, WFM Perpetual Ogbiyoyo founded an organization to spread chess to girls and women throughout Nigeria. Now, she’s expanded her connection to the chess world by moving to New York City. In this episode, we talk about her incredible journey, including:
- How she rose from complete beginner to Woman FIDE Master in one year.
- A window into the culture and community of chess in Nigeria.
- Why she created the organization Promoting Queens and its mission to empower girls everywhere through chess.
- Her aspiration to become the first Nigerian woman Grandmaster.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Alright, on to this week'sepisode.
Today's guest hails from Nigeriaand recently moved to New York
City.
She is a woman fide master and,just so you know, she prefers
to keep her anonymity with thename Perpetual Agbiyoyo, or, as
she said, I could call her Perpsfor short.
Perps has had an incrediblechess journey.
(02:04):
She didn't really learn how toplay chess until she was 19
years old, but just a littleover a year later she earned a
FIDE rating in the 1800s, alongwith the WFM title from her
performance at the ChessOlympiad, where she represented
Nigeria.
Also, about a year and a halfago, perps launched an
organization called PromotingQueens.
This organization helps bringchess to girls and women
(02:27):
throughout Nigeria and, as Imentioned, most recently Perps
moved to New York City, whereshe's now connected to its
thriving chess culture.
In this interview, perps and Ichat about these amazing parts
of her chess journey, includingher rapid rise as a chess player
, her organization and what sheenvisions for her future chess
life.
Here's my interview with Perps.
I hope you enjoy it.
Hi, perps, it's great to haveyou on the podcast.
(02:50):
How are you doing today?
Perps (02:51):
Yeah, I'm doing great.
Thank you for having me on yourpodcast, Daniel.
It's an honor to be here.
Daniel (02:57):
Yeah, it's my pleasure to chat with you.
You have a really awesomejourney to talk about.
I'm really impressed by it andit's exciting and I can't wait
to dive into all of it.
Let's start with just where youare right now, because you
recently moved from Nigeria tothe US, I think about six months
ago.
How is that going, and whatmade you want to move here?
Perps (03:19):
It's been kind of challenging at the same time
kind of great and kind ofchallenging at the same time
kind of great, kind of gettingused to a new environment.
The culture is different.
You know, having to go throughthe trains, it's a lot to deal
with, but so far it's been agreat experience and I'm loving
(03:40):
it here.
Concerning my moving to theUnited States, I first visited
here in June.
That was during the summer andI got to experience the chess
culture here.
I saw that chess was taken as abig deal.
Ross from the Gifts of Chessactually took me around to some
ICN camps they were having and Icould see how they were serious
(04:04):
about chess and the kids wereactually invested in chess.
So I really wanted toexperience what that felt like
here and see if I can make animpact here.
So I decided to stay back.
Daniel (04:16):
Yeah, that's really exciting.
So you said you first visitedin June.
What month did you end upmoving here?
Perps (04:22):
Well, I decided to stay in.
Daniel (04:24):
December.
So that's only a couple ofmonths, and you mentioned to me
earlier that there's been alittle bit of a culture shock.
Is there one thing inparticular that stands out to
you, that strikes you asdifferent or just a little more
challenging to adapt to?
Perps (04:39):
Yeah, where I was in Nigeria, I had a lot of people I
knew and people I could just goto, or maybe chess clubs I
could go to hang out and playchess.
Well, it's been kind ofdifferent here because, you know
, you just have to find a way tostrike a balance in between so
(05:01):
many things to do and, of course, the food too.
Of course, I still get to makeNigerian food, but you might not
get as fresh ingredients as youwant.
I'm loving it so far, though.
I'm loving to get theexperience of trying out new
things too.
Daniel (05:18):
It sounds like it would take a lot to get used to, but
also an exciting adventure.
I'm curious about how yourexperience with the chess scene
and chess culture in New YorkCity you are in New York City
correct Correct.
How has that experience beencompared to what you were used
to in Nigeria?
Perps (05:36):
The experience has been, I would say, great.
I get to meet some of the kidshere and we get to actually
Watch them grow and teach themchess, so the experience here
has been kind of great.
I can see the parents are muchmore invested in like helping
(05:56):
the kids grow on chess and,aside that, a lot of places play
chess in New York so they havea lot of chess clubs and I just
actually love the city, I lovebeing here, I love the fact that
chess is, like very accessibleto you.
Daniel (06:13):
Yeah, that's fantastic.
That's really exciting to hearthat.
So, yeah, going back to thebeginning of your chess story
now, there's several aspects toit that are pretty awesome and
remarkable to me.
Aspects to it that are prettyawesome and remarkable to me the
first is that you earned theWFM title not long ago, even
though you only first learned toplay the game at age 19.
So how did you get into thegame when you were 19?
Perps (06:36):
Okay, when I was 19,.
I was in the university and Ikind of stumbled across chess.
We had a period in school wherethere was a strike, so for that
period things don't get tohappen in school.
Most of the students still gohome.
But I decided to stay back inschool then with my brother and
(06:57):
someone brought a chess setaround and was like, let's play.
Funny enough, it's crazy how thebrain works, because memories
never really leave you.
You could know something andit's just stuck on one part of
your brain and one day you justneeded time you automatically
bring it out from wherever itwas stored.
So when I was younger I didn'tself-taught myself how to play
(07:24):
chess on the computer.
My mom got a computer for usthen.
I didn't get a lot of time touse the computer, but anytime I
did, I just found chess on thecomputer and I started learning
how to play because the computerreally highlighted the moves
for me.
But I never really understoodhow the ninth move.
(07:45):
But I never really got to playafter then.
So it was just for a while andI think after a year the
computer got bad and never,never replaced it, so I didn't
really have time to play chess.
So I had the opportunity to playchess.
So when I was 19, again, whensomeone brought the chess sets,
I was surprised.
(08:05):
I didn't know how to playbecause my brain actually
remembered from when I wasyounger how to move the pieces.
But someone then explained tome the ninth movement was in L
shape, so I was able to connectto memory like, oh, so that's
what the computer was alwaystelling me jump the 90.
I was just jumping it around.
So the first person I learnedchess with, he told me his
(08:33):
brother was one of the best inNigeria and it was just kind of
mind-blowing to me, like peopleplay this game and travel around
the world to play it.
And he told me some awesomestories.
I was like I want to be likethis too.
So with time I just startedgetting very passionate about
the game.
So I would play with peoplearound me and I would see what I
(08:56):
did wrong Next time.
I was just trying to win moregames and I slowly started to
improve and win people around me.
So at some point they no longerwanted to play me.
So I had to find some personsto play with.
And then I heard we had aschool team in university where
(09:16):
different people get torepresent the school in
different spots and they kind ofhad a hostel where they stay
for free.
That was amazing to me becausethe hostel will pay for it and
people stay there for freebecause they get to represent
the school.
So I went there to just findsomeone to play chess with and
(09:37):
eventually found out there werechess players over there and
they were actually good and waybetter than me.
I was just learning.
And they were actually good andway better than me.
I was just learning.
So it kind of challenged me towant to play more and actually
do better.
So there was a girl there I usedto play Lord's Treasure.
I played it for a long time.
(10:00):
She used to win me all the timeand I didn't let that stop me.
If I could get one win out of20, I would be happy.
But yes, I finally accomplishedit.
I just kept coming to thehostel.
Some days I would sleep over atthe hostel playing chess.
I would forget I'm supposed togo home.
I would keep playing andplaying until the night.
I would stay over Some days.
(10:20):
It would forget I'm supposed togo home.
I'd keep playing, and playingand playing to the night and I
would stay over some days.
It would be two days in theroad that I forgot to go to my
house because I was playingchess.
I just got really passionateabout chess.
That was how my journey began.
Daniel (10:39):
That's amazing.
So did you finally learn howthat night moved when you were
19?
Is that when you got it?
Perps (10:46):
Yeah, when I was 19,.
That's when I really understood.
I know there was a pattern tothe night.
Daniel (10:52):
So you said to me when we spoke earlier that it was
only about two years afterlearning how to play when you
were 19, as you described, thatyou earned the WFM title.
So why do you feel you improvedso quickly?
Because that's a pretty fastperiod to be able to do that.
Perps (11:09):
Well, one thing I feel that made me improve very
quickly was I was always open tolearning.
I wanted to play anyone andeverybody.
Anyway, I saw anyone playingchess.
I wanted to watch the game.
I wanted to make sure I learnedfrom the game.
I wanted to always just get achance to make sure I learned
from the game.
I wanted to always just get achance anybody.
I say I get anybody, I get achance to play.
I just tried to play them, nomatter what it was.
(11:32):
And also I kind of read somebooks.
That helped me improve too.
And I had a coach, my firstcoach.
That actually was, uh, I wouldsay, a very big, uh, a very big
part of my journey when I wasabout to go for my first
Olympiad, because I had aninitial rating of 18, I think
(11:56):
18.30 when it came out and I gota slot to go for the Olympiad
because my rating came out asone of the highest female in the
country.
So I had little or noexperience, would say, going
into the event and I had a lotof turns to prove because at
(12:17):
that point nobody knew me and itwas kind of a battle of who is
this representing nigeria?
We have all the other playersthat we know that have been
doing well.
Why are they bringing this,this space?
That we don't know.
So I just wanted to just makesure I went there and did my
best.
(12:43):
So I got a coach, coach Ben.
I traveled over from where Iwas staying to his state.
That was like I would say howmany miles.
That was like a three, threehour drive or so, and I stayed
there for about two weeks.
We coach me and taught me howto play it, taught me the Grand
(13:03):
Prix opening.
Then I see one of my I stillhave the open entity so he just
gave me ideas and told me we didsome flat things, gave me some
ideas on porn structures, giveme a whole lot of ideas on how
to play games.
And when I got to the olympiad,I actually outdid myself
because every game I mean Itreated every game like I was
(13:25):
playing the best person in theworld and I gave it all my best.
So, so at that event, I scoredsix out of seven games and that
was how I got my Women's FIDEMaster's title at the Olympics
in 2018.
Daniel (13:40):
Wow, that's incredible.
Wait, I mean, it didn't soundlike you've been playing many
tournaments before then, wereyou, or did you?
Perps (13:46):
No, I played two tournaments before then
previously where my initialrating just came out.
So that was an initial rate andI took to the Olympiad.
I was very fresh out the books.
Daniel (13:59):
That's incredible, and I mean, since you had resumed
playing the game, I mean I feellike when you were 19 is like
when you really started to, youknow play for real and study for
real.
You went to the Olympiad afterlike what?
Maybe just a year or so ofdoing that.
Yeah, after a year I said yeah,wow, that's amazing.
And just at your third ratedevent, you got the WFM title.
Perps (14:22):
Exactly that's so impressive yeah.
Daniel (14:24):
That's so impressive I mean I know it's been some years
now.
Do you feel like you fullyappreciated at the time what an
accomplishment that was?
Because I mean, I know you werenew to the chess competitive
scene, at least at that point.
But like now, looking back onit, that's pretty amazing yeah,
I don't.
Perps (14:38):
I didn't.
I don't think I fullyappreciated it then because I
was always challenging myself todo more, like when I achieve
something I feel like I can dobetter than this.
I don't need.
I need to do more than I'vedone.
So I didn't really understandthe accomplishments later on in
life.
Daniel (14:56):
Yeah, yeah, it's really impressive, and so you attribute
a lot of that to working withyour coach and playing all the
time basically yeah yeah.
Did you have other resourcesthat you used to help you
improve, like books or coursesor things like that?
Yeah, I read some books.
Other resources that you use tohelp you improve, like books or
courses or things like that.
Perps (15:11):
Yeah, I read some books.
Um, they're mostly books,because then I don't think I
really had a lot of access tothe internet, so it's mostly
books.
I read just calculations byjacob agard.
That was a really good book.
I would recommend my System byElon Nimzovich and some other
(15:35):
books.
Yeah, some other books onmiddle game strategy.
Daniel (15:38):
Yeah, I'm curious about the chess scene, chess culture
in Nigeria.
I imagine most of my listenersdon't really know what it's like
there in terms of what thechess culture experience is.
I guess there's a lot ofdifferent ways you could
describe it, but maybe on acouple of ways to just think
about.
It is like do many people play?
(15:59):
Did many of your friends play?
Family play?
I'll just start with that.
Perps (16:05):
Okay, so I'll say the chess in Nigeria.
It's really good.
We have people that supportschess players and try to help
them grow.
We have tournaments all around.
We have the Southwest, we haveregional tournaments for each
regions.
We have Southwest, we have theNorth, we have tournaments like
(16:27):
that and then we have the twocool tournaments, mostly
organized as tournaments forjuniors and encourages junior
players, and we have tournamentshappening mostly all around the
state.
But I feel we're still trying tobring more awareness to chess
in Nigeria because it's not likein New York where almost
(16:51):
everyone knows what chess is andeveryone plays chess and we
don't do a lot of chess inschools not in most schools.
I feel we can put chess in thepublic schools and really get to
those kids that really don'thave access to chess or really
know what chess is about.
And my family I would say, yeah, they do know how to play.
(17:15):
Maybe they don't know how thepieces move.
Well, I've never really playedwith them, maybe once or twice.
You know you win anyways.
So there's no points.
But I was the only one thatreally just took chess very
seriously in my family.
But chess is still widespreadin Nigeria.
(17:36):
I feel like over the years it'sgoing to really get better and
chess is going to be really big.
Daniel (17:42):
Did you have friends that you knew when you were 19,
who were already playing chess?
Perps (17:46):
Yeah, when I was 19, most of my friends didn't play chess
, and they actually found somethat did, and now I'd say 90% of
my friends play chess.
Right, yeah, exactly.
Daniel (18:02):
That's what I was thinking after being into it for
so long.
For you personally, what wasthe access like for you to be
able to go to ratedover-the-board tournaments?
Was it something that was achallenge to get to, or was it
pretty easy to register forthose?
Perps (18:16):
It's easy to register for but it requires you to travel
down sometimes to play sometournaments, so I didn't really
get to play lots of events, butthe ones around me did try to
like play some of the events.
I normally go to the club everyweekend and anybody and
everyone I saw I played anybodyany chance was so we had a chess
(18:41):
club that was close to me so Iwas always going there to play
chess.
So I think that was somethingthat something that actually
helped me improve to get intoplay people all the time.
But I did get an opportunity toplay tournaments.
I would say on an average Iplayed about three to four
tournaments in a year.
(19:02):
I won't say that's a lot.
I mean in New York you can playup to.
I can say I can play up to 10events a month if I want to, if
I have the time, but it's not alot of tournaments in Nigeria
like here.
Daniel (19:19):
Sure sure and your first .
I was just thinking based onwhat you said.
I was thinking about your firstChess Olympiad that you said
you went to.
Where was that Like?
What country was that it was in?
Perps (19:30):
Batumi Georgia.
I think that was the 44th or43rd Chess Olympiad.
Daniel (19:38):
So I'm curious about just kind of like the timeline
of your accomplishments.
I know you're a two-time winnerof the Nigerian Women's Chess
Championship.
What years did you win thoseevents?
Perps (19:49):
Yeah, I won those events in 2021 and 2022.
Daniel (19:53):
And how long after you started.
You know, getting into chessthat second time in your life
when you were 19?
How long after that did you winthose championships?
Perps (20:03):
So, okay, I got into chess in I would say I was 19,
so 2016.
And I got to represent at theOlympiad in 2010.
I did play my firstchampionship in 2020 and I came
second place.
So I wasn't happy with myselfand I told myself I was going to
(20:25):
get first place next time,which I did the following year
and the year after that I didn'treally play after the second
year.
The third year, I kind of tooka step back and I was just
trying to evaluate a lot ofthings outside chess.
Daniel (20:44):
Well, that brings up a question I wanted to ask you.
As we were talking I'm justthinking of it as we were
talking you had this rapid risein your progress in the game,
like we talked about, you know,getting the WFM title just two
years or no, actually, reallyjust a little little over one
year after you began, you know.
Then you're winning thenational championships for
women's chess championship.
Is there a point, like alongthe way in your chess journey,
(21:06):
because you're accomplishing somuch in chess that you started
thinking about, like, how couldI, you know, make this a career?
How could I make this somethingI do all the time?
Perps (21:15):
Yeah, of course, at that point chess was a career for me
because chess was all I did At19,.
I started playing chess Almostabout a year later.
I lost my dad and it turns outit was actually kind of
difficult before that because hewas sick for a very long time.
So at some point I had to stepup to be an adult.
(21:37):
So I had to pay my school feesmyself.
I had to worry about what I'mgonna eat.
So everything I said I'd do inrevolver and chess.
So the first time actuallyrepresented the school in
Nigerian Investor Games.
We have Nigerian Investor Gameswhere all the universities in
(21:57):
Nigeria come around to compete.
I won some medals for theschool and I got paid and that
was how I paid my school feesfor the semester.
So I started earning fromtournaments.
Money I used from tournamentsis what I used to take care of
myself.
I would sometimes send to mymom.
So chess, chess became like alifesaver for me at some point
because I just kind of held onto it and it was something that
(22:22):
kept me going, sometimes bothfinancially.
I made the career out of it.
I was able to use it to helpmyself and not only help myself
just on the board.
Financially, too, and in lifeitself, I was able to make
better decisions and sit downand tell myself that, okay, if
something happens, it's it's nolonger.
(22:43):
Um, I don't think of things asthis didn't happen because of my
situation.
I actually think of them asthere's something I could have
done better.
So what can I actually do tomake it better, instead of
sitting and thinking down aboutmy life?
So chess actually taught me that, and chess actually made me
grow.
He grew, made me grow as aperson.
(23:04):
So chess helped me, bothfinancially and mentally, to
help me, you know, help me thinkof situations as as not um, not
thinking of um situation aroundyou, but having to having to
think things out and having to,like, bring up a solution for
(23:27):
everything.
You know that, okay, ifsomething goes wrong, I must
have done something wrong, orwhat can I do to make it better.
So chess helped me grow.
Mentally, too, chess was alifesaver for me.
Daniel (23:38):
That's amazing.
I love hearing that.
I love hearing how much ithelped you and, um, kind of, you
know, help shape you as aperson.
That's that's uh, that'swonderful to hear.
So, uh, kind of along thoselines.
I'm talking about, like chess,you becoming your career and
your life.
I guess it wasn't many yearsinto that journey that you
launched the organizationPromoting Queens.
Can you talk a little bit abouthow that came about for you?
Perps (24:02):
Okay.
So when Promoting Queens cameabout that was almost two years
now After winning the secondchampionship I didn't kind of
feel some sense of fulfillment.
I started thinking about a lotof things and I didn't want to
just be that person, that personthat plays chess and just win
(24:24):
championships I wanted to beable to do more.
So I started thinking about theimpact chess had had on my life
and what it could actually dofor young girls out there or
other ladies like me.
I mean, I was a teenager andchess actually helped me find
the purpose in life, and I thinkchess can actually help people
(24:45):
find their purpose.
It doesn't mean they might haveto be professional chess
players or make sure they focuson only chess, but there are so
many lessons you can learn fromchess that can actually help
shape a person.
So I wanted to see more girlslike me, or young girls, rise up
to the occasion and I wanted tojust impact young girls out
(25:06):
there.
So that's when Promoting Coinscame about, and when I talked
about it, I spoke to for fewfriends about it and it thought
it was a great idea and I didn'twaste no time.
I just studied it immediately.
I didn't waste any time tothink about it.
So that was how promoting coinscame about.
That's amazing, and what wouldyou say is the mission or the
(25:42):
goal of Promoting Queens?
Something that could actually,for those who want to be
professionals such as I could bea courier such as something
that could actually help themgrow in life and help them in
various fields and whatever itis they decide to be in life.
Yeah, that's incredible.
(26:09):
I love that.
And how do you go about doingthat?
Through Promoting Queens?
What are the ways that you tryto accomplish that?
So the one of the ways we tryto accomplish that is we reach
out to.
Sometimes we go to all girlsspaces or schools and those that
have no idea about chess.
We we motivate them.
We organize um events where weget to teach them chess for like
(26:31):
a short period sometimesbecause we might not have the
funding to do like a very longproject, sometimes two weeks.
We have a project where weteach them how to play chess and
afterwards we try to help themin their education with whatever
funds we can raise and try toset up a chess club there and
(26:52):
establish a playing chessculture in the school and we
just keep doing that and hopethat we actually made an impact
and go back to check on theirprogress from time to time.
Daniel (27:04):
That's fantastic.
So mostly you focus on buildingchess clubs in schools in
Nigeria.
Yeah, is there one school inparticular that you're proud of,
maybe because of what it'saccomplished, or just any other
project that you've done throughPromoting Queens, something
you'd like to highlight?
Perps (27:21):
Yeah, so last year we had a project in Joss.
We had three girls thatactually stood out in the event
and so afterwards they had asummer camp in Joss and you
won't believe it these threegirls actually went to that
chess camp and they had atournament there.
So actually they didexcellently well, they came out
(27:42):
with medals on the event and Iwas so happy to see that.
I'm happy to see that the girlswere actually growing, but not
just in chest.
They're actually calmer,they're actually thinkers, and I
believe that we're able to makemore impact that way.
That's incredible.
Daniel (28:02):
In regards to where Promoting Queens operates, I
know you're working in Nigeria.
That's where it began.
Do you work in places beyondthat, or is it mostly just
focused on Nigeria?
Perps (28:13):
The focus.
When I started promoting Queens, I was in Nigeria so I could
only reach those around me.
But now I'm in the UnitedStates, I have more access to
people.
I actually inspire the girls Iwork with.
I tell them about my story.
I try to tell them about thebenefits of chess not just
(28:33):
seeing chess as moving yourpieces around and I believe we
can actually get chess girls allover the world, not just in
Nigeria.
So the goal has changed now.
The goal has changed.
I want to see girls all overthe world play chess not just
play chess as a game, but getthe impact you really need to
get from chess.
Daniel (28:55):
And if someone wanted to help or volunteer with
Promoting Queens, how could theydo that, or what are some of
the best ways to do that?
Perps (29:02):
Well, we have a website.
You could just head over to ourwebsite and go to the volunteer
session and fill out avolunteer form and join us.
Daniel (29:12):
Perfect.
Yeah, we'll have a link in theshow notes for your site there
so people can check that out,and I hope they do.
It's great work that you'redoing with Promoting Queens.
I love hearing about it.
Perps (29:21):
Thank you very much.
Daniel (29:23):
Yeah, I know you're also collaborating, I think, in some
ways, with the Gift of Chess.
Is that just you and the Giftof Chess?
Perps (29:36):
Or are you just like your organization promoting queens
working with the gift of chess?
Yeah, promoting queens, thegift of chess has been like a
big supporter of our projectstoo.
They help the gift of chess.
What they do is they help getchess sets all over the world
and some of those chess setshave reached us too and we've
been able to like use them forthe project and use them to
establish chess clubs andvarious schools.
So the gift of chess has been,has been, a very important part
(30:00):
of of promoting queens.
I mean, we're giving this whilegiving these girls the gift of
chess, which is chess as a gift,and we get to get chess sets
for free, which are from thegift of chess.
So they've actually helped us.
I met ross here and ross hasbeen of great help.
He took me around to theschools, he showed me around and
(30:23):
he actually gave me this bookof recent.
I've been reading.
It has been.
It has been a really greatjourney so far.
So the Gifts of Chess has beengreat.
The Gifts of Chess is anorganization that actually helps
us with a lot of projects inNigeria yeah, it sounds like a
(30:45):
perfect collaboration, so that'sgreat.
Daniel (30:47):
I want to go back a little bit to your own chess
journey and what you're doingcompetitively your own skills in
chess the video interview thatyou recently posted on Twitter.
So I noticed in that video thatit flashed a news headline or
news page from the publicationPointer Women and the headline
from that article said that youhave plans to become the first
(31:07):
Nigerian Grandmaster.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat plan?
Perps (31:11):
that you have plans to become the first Nigerian
grandmaster.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat plan?
Yeah, so I plan to become thefirst Nigerian woman grandmaster
.
But at some point I really tooka step back and I just didn't
want to be any grandmaster.
You know, we have so manygrandmasters in the world.
I just didn't want to be just agrandmaster.
Actually not helped anybody butmyself, because it felt kind of
(31:34):
selfish.
So I I've had to, like take astep back with so many
responsibilities and just thinkabout okay, I'm still planning
to become the first maingrandmaster, I'm still working
with my chest, but I've beentrying to kind of strike a
balance of like it's beenoverwhelming, but one day I'll
(31:58):
get there.
Daniel (31:59):
Yeah, sure, now you're focused more on promoting Queens
right now.
Right, yeah, so that makessense.
Yeah, and the other thing thatyou're focused on that you told
me is that you spend a lot oftime coaching students.
I'd love to hear a little bitabout that.
Like, do you typically coach interms of their rating range or
age?
Perps (32:17):
I coach a lot of kids.
I coach kids from a range of, Iwould say, maybe 1,000 to 1,005
or 1,006.
These kids, it's really awesomeworking with them because it
kind of challenges me to want todo better every day and you
(32:37):
have to learn how to learn howto be able to break things down.
Sometimes you could be a goodchess player, but you might not
be a really good coach if youdon't really know how to pass on
information to the next person.
So it's kind of challenged meto learn from see through the
(33:01):
eyes of these kids and know whatit is they know, see through
their lens and make me thinklike a kid, so make me be able
to talk to them in a way kidswill understand.
Daniel (33:12):
Yeah, yeah, do you still coach a lot of the same
students that you were coachingin Nigeria just online now, or
are you coaching new people?
Perps (33:20):
now that you're here in the US, I coach new people now,
but I still coach some of thepersons where it's been really
challenging because with thetime zone it has been crazy.
Yeah, different time zones, soit's been really challenging
because with the time zone ithas been crazy.
Daniel (33:33):
Yeah, yeah different time zones, so it's very
difficult.
Sure are you coaching people inperson, because I know you have
access to a lot of the schoolsnow they're in in new york yeah,
I get to meet people in person,yeah that's great.
I love all that you're doing forit's.
It's fantastic.
I mean, you have such anincredible journey so far.
I from your rapid rise as aplayer yourself to launching
(33:54):
your organization, promotingQueens and now being here in the
US and kind of expanding whoyou connect with in chess.
It's really all very exciting.
It's an amazing story.
You know we're doing thisinterview and I'm chatting with
you now at this point in yourjourney, but it still feels like
it's early, like we were justin the first couple of chapters
of this big book of your chessjourney, and I feel like we'll
(34:19):
probably need like an update ina couple of years of all that
you've been doing since then.
Does it feel that way to you?
Do you feel like everything'sjust sort of beginning now, or
do you feel like this has justbeen?
Perps (34:27):
I feel like this is just the beginning.
Actually, A lot of myexperience so far has been
preparing me for what is yet tocome.
Daniel (34:34):
Right For as much as it may feel like the beginning and
of course, it is still early inthis whole journey with chess, I
mean, you've done so muchalready.
I'd be happy if I do half ofwhat you've accomplished in 20
years Earning the WFM title andlaunching an organization
connecting with new peopleacross the globe.
(34:55):
It's really impressive.
So I'm very excited to see whatthe next coming years have for
you.
Perps (34:59):
Thank you very much, Daniel.
I'm excited to see what's next?
Daniel (35:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I want to finish myinterview with you in our chat
with a series of questions thatI close all my interviews with.
They're designed to just be fun, rapid questions.
Rapid meaning like I'll askthem quick, like they're short
questions, but you can takehowever long you want to answer
them.
Your answers don't have to berapid, okay.
So first question knights orbishops?
Perps (35:27):
Knights?
Definitely I like the idea ofthe knights because they can
just sneak up on you.
Daniel (35:35):
Right, well, I love that as an answer.
Knowing how this all began.
For you, the knights was likethe last piece you knew how it
moved.
And now one of your favorites.
So what's your favorite?
Time control.
Perps (35:51):
I would say one minute.
Yeah, sometimes, and I wouldlike you know, just play fast
game when I'm in the commute, sowhen I'm just doing something.
So I play one minute a lot justto pass time.
Daniel (36:02):
But what's your favorite opening to play as white?
Perps (36:05):
yeah, the grand prix.
I told you the story about theGrand Prix.
It's one of my favoriteopenings.
Daniel (36:10):
Yeah, yeah.
I lose to it often, so Iunderstand why it'd be your
favorite.
What's your favorite opening asBlack?
I?
Perps (36:19):
love the Queen's Indian, queen's Indian.
Yeah, I love the way.
I love openings that help mejust kind of have a setup to
attack, even though I'm playingas black.
Daniel (36:32):
Yeah, I like that answer .
I often well like.
It's not the most common answer, but it's one of the more
popular ones.
To say King's Indian.
So I haven't had someone sayQueen's Indian yet, so I like
that.
What's one word you would useto describe your playing style?
Perps (36:49):
I'd say I'm more of an aggressive chess player.
I like tactical games.
I like games that just kind ofopen up.
I love games that are justbeing so fun to chess.
Daniel (36:59):
Who is your favorite player of all time?
Perps (37:02):
Still Miketel.
Daniel (37:03):
Awesome If you could play any of the top players in
the world right now.
Who would it be?
Judith Polder, Great answer.
What's one book or course thatyou would recommend to help
people improve?
Perps (37:16):
I would recommend Calculations in Chess by Jacob
Agard.
Daniel (37:21):
What's your favorite way to study the game Meaning like?
What aspect of the game do youenjoy most to study?
Perps (37:28):
Oh, I enjoy a lot of tactics.
Mostly I enjoy a lot of tactics.
Mostly I enjoy a lot of tactics.
And I'll say, the favorite wayto study a chess game for me
would be reading some books,books that have a lot of puzzles
in them.
Daniel (37:46):
And my final question if a chess genie existed and could
grant you any one chess wish,what would you wish for?
Perps (37:57):
I would wish for every woman or every girl in the world
to know how to play chess.
Daniel (38:02):
Oh, that's fantastic.
I love that Perfect answer.
So yeah, purps, it's beenfantastic chatting with you.
I really enjoyed ourconversation and I'm honored to
have you on the show.
Like I said, I feel like thisis just the first couple of
chapters of your chess journeythat we're discussing and, given
how much you've accomplishedalready in that time, I look
forward to hearing about allthat you'll accomplish in the
coming years.
So, thank you for being on theshow and I hope to have you
(38:25):
again in the future.
Perps (38:27):
Yeah, thank you, daniel.
I hope to be on your show againwhen you know I'm getting to
the later parts of the book.
Right, exactly.
Daniel (38:36):
Exactly.
I'll definitely invite you onwhen we get to that point.
I'm sure there'll be a lot ofnew things to discuss and
exciting things that you'll haveaccomplished.
So yeah, thank you so much andI just wish you all the best
with promoting Queens and yourcoaching and, you know, any
other endeavor you you goforward with with chess.
So, thank you.
Perps (38:55):
Thank you very much, Daniel.
Have a great day.
Daniel (39:00):
Thanks for listening.
This has been a production ofmy business, adult chess Academy
, and that has a website withthe same name.
If you want to look for it, youcan also find me being way too
active on Twitter by searchingmy username, lona underscore
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Alright, on to this week'sepisode.
Today's guest hails from Nigeriaand recently moved to New York
City.
She is a woman fide master and,just so you know, she prefers
to keep her anonymity with thename Perpetual Agbiyoyo, or, as
she said, I could call her Perpsfor short.
Perps has had an incrediblechess journey.
(02:04):
She didn't really learn how toplay chess until she was 19
years old, but just a littleover a year later she earned a
FIDE rating in the 1800s, alongwith the WFM title from her
performance at the ChessOlympiad, where she represented
Nigeria.
Also, about a year and a halfago, perps launched an
organization called PromotingQueens.
This organization helps bringchess to girls and women
(02:27):
throughout Nigeria and, as Imentioned, most recently Perps
moved to New York City, whereshe's now connected to its
thriving chess culture.
In this interview, perps and Ichat about these amazing parts
of her chess journey, includingher rapid rise as a chess player
, her organization and what sheenvisions for her future chess
life.
Here's my interview with Perps.
I hope you enjoy it.
Hi, perps, it's great to haveyou on the podcast.
(02:50):
How are you doing today?
Perps (02:51):
Yeah, I'm doing great.
Thank you for having me on yourpodcast, Daniel.
It's an honor to be here.
Daniel (02:57):
Yeah, it's my pleasure to chat with you.
You have a really awesomejourney to talk about.
I'm really impressed by it andit's exciting and I can't wait
to dive into all of it.
Let's start with just where youare right now, because you
recently moved from Nigeria tothe US, I think about six months
ago.
How is that going, and whatmade you want to move here?
Perps (03:19):
It's been kind of challenging at the same time
kind of great and kind ofchallenging at the same time
kind of great, kind of gettingused to a new environment.
The culture is different.
You know, having to go throughthe trains, it's a lot to deal
with, but so far it's been agreat experience and I'm loving
(03:40):
it here.
Concerning my moving to theUnited States, I first visited
here in June.
That was during the summer andI got to experience the chess
culture here.
I saw that chess was taken as abig deal.
Ross from the Gifts of Chessactually took me around to some
ICN camps they were having and Icould see how they were serious
(04:04):
about chess and the kids wereactually invested in chess.
So I really wanted toexperience what that felt like
here and see if I can make animpact here.
So I decided to stay back.
Daniel (04:16):
Yeah, that's really exciting.
So you said you first visitedin June.
What month did you end upmoving here?
Perps (04:22):
Well, I decided to stay in.
Daniel (04:24):
December.
So that's only a couple ofmonths, and you mentioned to me
earlier that there's been alittle bit of a culture shock.
Is there one thing inparticular that stands out to
you, that strikes you asdifferent or just a little more
challenging to adapt to?
Perps (04:39):
Yeah, where I was in Nigeria, I had a lot of people I
knew and people I could just goto, or maybe chess clubs I
could go to hang out and playchess.
Well, it's been kind ofdifferent here because, you know
, you just have to find a way tostrike a balance in between so
(05:01):
many things to do and, of course, the food too.
Of course, I still get to makeNigerian food, but you might not
get as fresh ingredients as youwant.
I'm loving it so far, though.
I'm loving to get theexperience of trying out new
things too.
Daniel (05:18):
It sounds like it would take a lot to get used to, but
also an exciting adventure.
I'm curious about how yourexperience with the chess scene
and chess culture in New YorkCity you are in New York City
correct Correct.
How has that experience beencompared to what you were used
to in Nigeria?
Perps (05:36):
The experience has been, I would say, great.
I get to meet some of the kidshere and we get to actually
Watch them grow and teach themchess, so the experience here
has been kind of great.
I can see the parents are muchmore invested in like helping
(05:56):
the kids grow on chess and,aside that, a lot of places play
chess in New York so they havea lot of chess clubs and I just
actually love the city, I lovebeing here, I love the fact that
chess is, like very accessibleto you.
Daniel (06:13):
Yeah, that's fantastic.
That's really exciting to hearthat.
So, yeah, going back to thebeginning of your chess story
now, there's several aspects toit that are pretty awesome and
remarkable to me.
Aspects to it that are prettyawesome and remarkable to me the
first is that you earned theWFM title not long ago, even
though you only first learned toplay the game at age 19.
So how did you get into thegame when you were 19?
Perps (06:36):
Okay, when I was 19,.
I was in the university and Ikind of stumbled across chess.
We had a period in school wherethere was a strike, so for that
period things don't get tohappen in school.
Most of the students still gohome.
But I decided to stay back inschool then with my brother and
(06:57):
someone brought a chess setaround and was like, let's play.
Funny enough, it's crazy how thebrain works, because memories
never really leave you.
You could know something andit's just stuck on one part of
your brain and one day you justneeded time you automatically
bring it out from wherever itwas stored.
So when I was younger I didn'tself-taught myself how to play
(07:24):
chess on the computer.
My mom got a computer for usthen.
I didn't get a lot of time touse the computer, but anytime I
did, I just found chess on thecomputer and I started learning
how to play because the computerreally highlighted the moves
for me.
But I never really understoodhow the ninth move.
(07:45):
But I never really got to playafter then.
So it was just for a while andI think after a year the
computer got bad and never,never replaced it, so I didn't
really have time to play chess.
So I had the opportunity to playchess.
So when I was 19, again, whensomeone brought the chess sets,
I was surprised.
(08:05):
I didn't know how to playbecause my brain actually
remembered from when I wasyounger how to move the pieces.
But someone then explained tome the ninth movement was in L
shape, so I was able to connectto memory like, oh, so that's
what the computer was alwaystelling me jump the 90.
I was just jumping it around.
So the first person I learnedchess with, he told me his
(08:33):
brother was one of the best inNigeria and it was just kind of
mind-blowing to me, like peopleplay this game and travel around
the world to play it.
And he told me some awesomestories.
I was like I want to be likethis too.
So with time I just startedgetting very passionate about
the game.
So I would play with peoplearound me and I would see what I
(08:56):
did wrong Next time.
I was just trying to win moregames and I slowly started to
improve and win people around me.
So at some point they no longerwanted to play me.
So I had to find some personsto play with.
And then I heard we had aschool team in university where
(09:16):
different people get torepresent the school in
different spots and they kind ofhad a hostel where they stay
for free.
That was amazing to me becausethe hostel will pay for it and
people stay there for freebecause they get to represent
the school.
So I went there to just findsomeone to play chess with and
(09:37):
eventually found out there werechess players over there and
they were actually good and waybetter than me.
I was just learning.
And they were actually good andway better than me.
I was just learning.
So it kind of challenged me towant to play more and actually
do better.
So there was a girl there I usedto play Lord's Treasure.
I played it for a long time.
(10:00):
She used to win me all the timeand I didn't let that stop me.
If I could get one win out of20, I would be happy.
But yes, I finally accomplishedit.
I just kept coming to thehostel.
Some days I would sleep over atthe hostel playing chess.
I would forget I'm supposed togo home.
I would keep playing andplaying until the night.
I would stay over Some days.
(10:20):
It would forget I'm supposed togo home.
I'd keep playing, and playingand playing to the night and I
would stay over some days.
It would be two days in theroad that I forgot to go to my
house because I was playingchess.
I just got really passionateabout chess.
That was how my journey began.
Daniel (10:39):
That's amazing.
So did you finally learn howthat night moved when you were
19?
Is that when you got it?
Perps (10:46):
Yeah, when I was 19,.
That's when I really understood.
I know there was a pattern tothe night.
Daniel (10:52):
So you said to me when we spoke earlier that it was
only about two years afterlearning how to play when you
were 19, as you described, thatyou earned the WFM title.
So why do you feel you improvedso quickly?
Because that's a pretty fastperiod to be able to do that.
Perps (11:09):
Well, one thing I feel that made me improve very
quickly was I was always open tolearning.
I wanted to play anyone andeverybody.
Anyway, I saw anyone playingchess.
I wanted to watch the game.
I wanted to make sure I learnedfrom the game.
I wanted to always just get achance to make sure I learned
from the game.
I wanted to always just get achance anybody.
I say I get anybody, I get achance to play.
I just tried to play them, nomatter what it was.
(11:32):
And also I kind of read somebooks.
That helped me improve too.
And I had a coach, my firstcoach.
That actually was, uh, I wouldsay, a very big, uh, a very big
part of my journey when I wasabout to go for my first
Olympiad, because I had aninitial rating of 18, I think
(11:56):
18.30 when it came out and I gota slot to go for the Olympiad
because my rating came out asone of the highest female in the
country.
So I had little or noexperience, would say, going
into the event and I had a lotof turns to prove because at
(12:17):
that point nobody knew me and itwas kind of a battle of who is
this representing nigeria?
We have all the other playersthat we know that have been
doing well.
Why are they bringing this,this space?
That we don't know.
So I just wanted to just makesure I went there and did my
best.
(12:43):
So I got a coach, coach Ben.
I traveled over from where Iwas staying to his state.
That was like I would say howmany miles.
That was like a three, threehour drive or so, and I stayed
there for about two weeks.
We coach me and taught me howto play it, taught me the Grand
(13:03):
Prix opening.
Then I see one of my I stillhave the open entity so he just
gave me ideas and told me we didsome flat things, gave me some
ideas on porn structures, giveme a whole lot of ideas on how
to play games.
And when I got to the olympiad,I actually outdid myself
because every game I mean Itreated every game like I was
(13:25):
playing the best person in theworld and I gave it all my best.
So, so at that event, I scoredsix out of seven games and that
was how I got my Women's FIDEMaster's title at the Olympics
in 2018.
Daniel (13:40):
Wow, that's incredible.
Wait, I mean, it didn't soundlike you've been playing many
tournaments before then, wereyou, or did you?
Perps (13:46):
No, I played two tournaments before then
previously where my initialrating just came out.
So that was an initial rate andI took to the Olympiad.
I was very fresh out the books.
Daniel (13:59):
That's incredible, and I mean, since you had resumed
playing the game, I mean I feellike when you were 19 is like
when you really started to, youknow play for real and study for
real.
You went to the Olympiad afterlike what?
Maybe just a year or so ofdoing that.
Yeah, after a year I said yeah,wow, that's amazing.
And just at your third ratedevent, you got the WFM title.
Perps (14:22):
Exactly that's so impressive yeah.
Daniel (14:24):
That's so impressive I mean I know it's been some years
now.
Do you feel like you fullyappreciated at the time what an
accomplishment that was?
Because I mean, I know you werenew to the chess competitive
scene, at least at that point.
But like now, looking back onit, that's pretty amazing yeah,
I don't.
Perps (14:38):
I didn't.
I don't think I fullyappreciated it then because I
was always challenging myself todo more, like when I achieve
something I feel like I can dobetter than this.
I don't need.
I need to do more than I'vedone.
So I didn't really understandthe accomplishments later on in
life.
Daniel (14:56):
Yeah, yeah, it's really impressive, and so you attribute
a lot of that to working withyour coach and playing all the
time basically yeah yeah.
Did you have other resourcesthat you used to help you
improve, like books or coursesor things like that?
Yeah, I read some books.
Other resources that you use tohelp you improve, like books or
courses or things like that.
Perps (15:11):
Yeah, I read some books.
Um, they're mostly books,because then I don't think I
really had a lot of access tothe internet, so it's mostly
books.
I read just calculations byjacob agard.
That was a really good book.
I would recommend my System byElon Nimzovich and some other
(15:35):
books.
Yeah, some other books onmiddle game strategy.
Daniel (15:38):
Yeah, I'm curious about the chess scene, chess culture
in Nigeria.
I imagine most of my listenersdon't really know what it's like
there in terms of what thechess culture experience is.
I guess there's a lot ofdifferent ways you could
describe it, but maybe on acouple of ways to just think
about.
It is like do many people play?
(15:59):
Did many of your friends play?
Family play?
I'll just start with that.
Perps (16:05):
Okay, so I'll say the chess in Nigeria.
It's really good.
We have people that supportschess players and try to help
them grow.
We have tournaments all around.
We have the Southwest, we haveregional tournaments for each
regions.
We have Southwest, we have theNorth, we have tournaments like
(16:27):
that and then we have the twocool tournaments, mostly
organized as tournaments forjuniors and encourages junior
players, and we have tournamentshappening mostly all around the
state.
But I feel we're still trying tobring more awareness to chess
in Nigeria because it's not likein New York where almost
(16:51):
everyone knows what chess is andeveryone plays chess and we
don't do a lot of chess inschools not in most schools.
I feel we can put chess in thepublic schools and really get to
those kids that really don'thave access to chess or really
know what chess is about.
And my family I would say, yeah, they do know how to play.
(17:15):
Maybe they don't know how thepieces move.
Well, I've never really playedwith them, maybe once or twice.
You know you win anyways.
So there's no points.
But I was the only one thatreally just took chess very
seriously in my family.
But chess is still widespreadin Nigeria.
(17:36):
I feel like over the years it'sgoing to really get better and
chess is going to be really big.
Daniel (17:42):
Did you have friends that you knew when you were 19,
who were already playing chess?
Perps (17:46):
Yeah, when I was 19, most of my friends didn't play chess
, and they actually found somethat did, and now I'd say 90% of
my friends play chess.
Right, yeah, exactly.
Daniel (18:02):
That's what I was thinking after being into it for
so long.
For you personally, what wasthe access like for you to be
able to go to ratedover-the-board tournaments?
Was it something that was achallenge to get to, or was it
pretty easy to register forthose?
Perps (18:16):
It's easy to register for but it requires you to travel
down sometimes to play sometournaments, so I didn't really
get to play lots of events, butthe ones around me did try to
like play some of the events.
I normally go to the club everyweekend and anybody and
everyone I saw I played anybodyany chance was so we had a chess
(18:41):
club that was close to me so Iwas always going there to play
chess.
So I think that was somethingthat something that actually
helped me improve to get intoplay people all the time.
But I did get an opportunity toplay tournaments.
I would say on an average Iplayed about three to four
tournaments in a year.
(19:02):
I won't say that's a lot.
I mean in New York you can playup to.
I can say I can play up to 10events a month if I want to, if
I have the time, but it's not alot of tournaments in Nigeria
like here.
Daniel (19:19):
Sure sure and your first .
I was just thinking based onwhat you said.
I was thinking about your firstChess Olympiad that you said
you went to.
Where was that Like?
What country was that it was in?
Perps (19:30):
Batumi Georgia.
I think that was the 44th or43rd Chess Olympiad.
Daniel (19:38):
So I'm curious about just kind of like the timeline
of your accomplishments.
I know you're a two-time winnerof the Nigerian Women's Chess
Championship.
What years did you win thoseevents?
Perps (19:49):
Yeah, I won those events in 2021 and 2022.
Daniel (19:53):
And how long after you started.
You know, getting into chessthat second time in your life
when you were 19?
How long after that did you winthose championships?
Perps (20:03):
So, okay, I got into chess in I would say I was 19,
so 2016.
And I got to represent at theOlympiad in 2010.
I did play my firstchampionship in 2020 and I came
second place.
So I wasn't happy with myselfand I told myself I was going to
(20:25):
get first place next time,which I did the following year
and the year after that I didn'treally play after the second
year.
The third year, I kind of tooka step back and I was just
trying to evaluate a lot ofthings outside chess.
Daniel (20:44):
Well, that brings up a question I wanted to ask you.
As we were talking I'm justthinking of it as we were
talking you had this rapid risein your progress in the game,
like we talked about, you know,getting the WFM title just two
years or no, actually, reallyjust a little little over one
year after you began, you know.
Then you're winning thenational championships for
women's chess championship.
Is there a point, like alongthe way in your chess journey,
(21:06):
because you're accomplishing somuch in chess that you started
thinking about, like, how couldI, you know, make this a career?
How could I make this somethingI do all the time?
Perps (21:15):
Yeah, of course, at that point chess was a career for me
because chess was all I did At19,.
I started playing chess Almostabout a year later.
I lost my dad and it turns outit was actually kind of
difficult before that because hewas sick for a very long time.
So at some point I had to stepup to be an adult.
(21:37):
So I had to pay my school feesmyself.
I had to worry about what I'mgonna eat.
So everything I said I'd do inrevolver and chess.
So the first time actuallyrepresented the school in
Nigerian Investor Games.
We have Nigerian Investor Gameswhere all the universities in
(21:57):
Nigeria come around to compete.
I won some medals for theschool and I got paid and that
was how I paid my school feesfor the semester.
So I started earning fromtournaments.
Money I used from tournamentsis what I used to take care of
myself.
I would sometimes send to mymom.
So chess, chess became like alifesaver for me at some point
because I just kind of held onto it and it was something that
(22:22):
kept me going, sometimes bothfinancially.
I made the career out of it.
I was able to use it to helpmyself and not only help myself
just on the board.
Financially, too, and in lifeitself, I was able to make
better decisions and sit downand tell myself that, okay, if
something happens, it's it's nolonger.
(22:43):
Um, I don't think of things asthis didn't happen because of my
situation.
I actually think of them asthere's something I could have
done better.
So what can I actually do tomake it better, instead of
sitting and thinking down aboutmy life?
So chess actually taught me that, and chess actually made me
grow.
He grew, made me grow as aperson.
(23:04):
So chess helped me, bothfinancially and mentally, to
help me, you know, help me thinkof situations as as not um, not
thinking of um situation aroundyou, but having to having to
think things out and having to,like, bring up a solution for
(23:27):
everything.
You know that, okay, ifsomething goes wrong, I must
have done something wrong, orwhat can I do to make it better.
So chess helped me grow.
Mentally, too, chess was alifesaver for me.
Daniel (23:38):
That's amazing.
I love hearing that.
I love hearing how much ithelped you and, um, kind of, you
know, help shape you as aperson.
That's that's uh, that'swonderful to hear.
So, uh, kind of along thoselines.
I'm talking about, like chess,you becoming your career and
your life.
I guess it wasn't many yearsinto that journey that you
launched the organizationPromoting Queens.
Can you talk a little bit abouthow that came about for you?
Perps (24:02):
Okay.
So when Promoting Queens cameabout that was almost two years
now After winning the secondchampionship I didn't kind of
feel some sense of fulfillment.
I started thinking about a lotof things and I didn't want to
just be that person, that personthat plays chess and just win
(24:24):
championships I wanted to beable to do more.
So I started thinking about theimpact chess had had on my life
and what it could actually dofor young girls out there or
other ladies like me.
I mean, I was a teenager andchess actually helped me find
the purpose in life, and I thinkchess can actually help people
(24:45):
find their purpose.
It doesn't mean they might haveto be professional chess
players or make sure they focuson only chess, but there are so
many lessons you can learn fromchess that can actually help
shape a person.
So I wanted to see more girlslike me, or young girls, rise up
to the occasion and I wanted tojust impact young girls out
(25:06):
there.
So that's when Promoting Coinscame about, and when I talked
about it, I spoke to for fewfriends about it and it thought
it was a great idea and I didn'twaste no time.
I just studied it immediately.
I didn't waste any time tothink about it.
So that was how promoting coinscame about.
That's amazing, and what wouldyou say is the mission or the
(25:42):
goal of Promoting Queens?
Something that could actually,for those who want to be
professionals such as I could bea courier such as something
that could actually help themgrow in life and help them in
various fields and whatever itis they decide to be in life.
Yeah, that's incredible.
(26:09):
I love that.
And how do you go about doingthat?
Through Promoting Queens?
What are the ways that you tryto accomplish that?
So the one of the ways we tryto accomplish that is we reach
out to.
Sometimes we go to all girlsspaces or schools and those that
have no idea about chess.
We we motivate them.
We organize um events where weget to teach them chess for like
(26:31):
a short period sometimesbecause we might not have the
funding to do like a very longproject, sometimes two weeks.
We have a project where weteach them how to play chess and
afterwards we try to help themin their education with whatever
funds we can raise and try toset up a chess club there and
(26:52):
establish a playing chessculture in the school and we
just keep doing that and hopethat we actually made an impact
and go back to check on theirprogress from time to time.
Daniel (27:04):
That's fantastic.
So mostly you focus on buildingchess clubs in schools in
Nigeria.
Yeah, is there one school inparticular that you're proud of,
maybe because of what it'saccomplished, or just any other
project that you've done throughPromoting Queens, something
you'd like to highlight?
Perps (27:21):
Yeah, so last year we had a project in Joss.
We had three girls thatactually stood out in the event
and so afterwards they had asummer camp in Joss and you
won't believe it these threegirls actually went to that
chess camp and they had atournament there.
So actually they didexcellently well, they came out
(27:42):
with medals on the event and Iwas so happy to see that.
I'm happy to see that the girlswere actually growing, but not
just in chest.
They're actually calmer,they're actually thinkers, and I
believe that we're able to makemore impact that way.
That's incredible.
Daniel (28:02):
In regards to where Promoting Queens operates, I
know you're working in Nigeria.
That's where it began.
Do you work in places beyondthat, or is it mostly just
focused on Nigeria?
Perps (28:13):
The focus.
When I started promoting Queens, I was in Nigeria so I could
only reach those around me.
But now I'm in the UnitedStates, I have more access to
people.
I actually inspire the girls Iwork with.
I tell them about my story.
I try to tell them about thebenefits of chess not just
(28:33):
seeing chess as moving yourpieces around and I believe we
can actually get chess girls allover the world, not just in
Nigeria.
So the goal has changed now.
The goal has changed.
I want to see girls all overthe world play chess not just
play chess as a game, but getthe impact you really need to
get from chess.
Daniel (28:55):
And if someone wanted to help or volunteer with
Promoting Queens, how could theydo that, or what are some of
the best ways to do that?
Perps (29:02):
Well, we have a website.
You could just head over to ourwebsite and go to the volunteer
session and fill out avolunteer form and join us.
Daniel (29:12):
Perfect.
Yeah, we'll have a link in theshow notes for your site there
so people can check that out,and I hope they do.
It's great work that you'redoing with Promoting Queens.
I love hearing about it.
Perps (29:21):
Thank you very much.
Daniel (29:23):
Yeah, I know you're also collaborating, I think, in some
ways, with the Gift of Chess.
Is that just you and the Giftof Chess?
Perps (29:36):
Or are you just like your organization promoting queens
working with the gift of chess?
Yeah, promoting queens, thegift of chess has been like a
big supporter of our projectstoo.
They help the gift of chess.
What they do is they help getchess sets all over the world
and some of those chess setshave reached us too and we've
been able to like use them forthe project and use them to
establish chess clubs andvarious schools.
So the gift of chess has been,has been, a very important part
(30:00):
of of promoting queens.
I mean, we're giving this whilegiving these girls the gift of
chess, which is chess as a gift,and we get to get chess sets
for free, which are from thegift of chess.
So they've actually helped us.
I met ross here and ross hasbeen of great help.
He took me around to theschools, he showed me around and
(30:23):
he actually gave me this bookof recent.
I've been reading.
It has been.
It has been a really greatjourney so far.
So the Gifts of Chess has beengreat.
The Gifts of Chess is anorganization that actually helps
us with a lot of projects inNigeria yeah, it sounds like a
(30:45):
perfect collaboration, so that'sgreat.
Daniel (30:47):
I want to go back a little bit to your own chess
journey and what you're doingcompetitively your own skills in
chess the video interview thatyou recently posted on Twitter.
So I noticed in that video thatit flashed a news headline or
news page from the publicationPointer Women and the headline
from that article said that youhave plans to become the first
(31:07):
Nigerian Grandmaster.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat plan?
Perps (31:11):
that you have plans to become the first Nigerian
grandmaster.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat plan?
Yeah, so I plan to become thefirst Nigerian woman grandmaster
.
But at some point I really tooka step back and I just didn't
want to be any grandmaster.
You know, we have so manygrandmasters in the world.
I just didn't want to be just agrandmaster.
Actually not helped anybody butmyself, because it felt kind of
(31:34):
selfish.
So I I've had to, like take astep back with so many
responsibilities and just thinkabout okay, I'm still planning
to become the first maingrandmaster, I'm still working
with my chest, but I've beentrying to kind of strike a
balance of like it's beenoverwhelming, but one day I'll
(31:58):
get there.
Daniel (31:59):
Yeah, sure, now you're focused more on promoting Queens
right now.
Right, yeah, so that makessense.
Yeah, and the other thing thatyou're focused on that you told
me is that you spend a lot oftime coaching students.
I'd love to hear a little bitabout that.
Like, do you typically coach interms of their rating range or
age?
Perps (32:17):
I coach a lot of kids.
I coach kids from a range of, Iwould say, maybe 1,000 to 1,005
or 1,006.
These kids, it's really awesomeworking with them because it
kind of challenges me to want todo better every day and you
(32:37):
have to learn how to learn howto be able to break things down.
Sometimes you could be a goodchess player, but you might not
be a really good coach if youdon't really know how to pass on
information to the next person.
So it's kind of challenged meto learn from see through the
(33:01):
eyes of these kids and know whatit is they know, see through
their lens and make me thinklike a kid, so make me be able
to talk to them in a way kidswill understand.
Daniel (33:12):
Yeah, yeah, do you still coach a lot of the same
students that you were coachingin Nigeria just online now, or
are you coaching new people?
Perps (33:20):
now that you're here in the US, I coach new people now,
but I still coach some of thepersons where it's been really
challenging because with thetime zone it has been crazy.
Yeah, different time zones, soit's been really challenging
because with the time zone ithas been crazy.
Daniel (33:33):
Yeah, yeah different time zones, so it's very
difficult.
Sure are you coaching people inperson, because I know you have
access to a lot of the schoolsnow they're in in new york yeah,
I get to meet people in person,yeah that's great.
I love all that you're doing forit's.
It's fantastic.
I mean, you have such anincredible journey so far.
I from your rapid rise as aplayer yourself to launching
(33:54):
your organization, promotingQueens and now being here in the
US and kind of expanding whoyou connect with in chess.
It's really all very exciting.
It's an amazing story.
You know we're doing thisinterview and I'm chatting with
you now at this point in yourjourney, but it still feels like
it's early, like we were justin the first couple of chapters
of this big book of your chessjourney, and I feel like we'll
(34:19):
probably need like an update ina couple of years of all that
you've been doing since then.
Does it feel that way to you?
Do you feel like everything'sjust sort of beginning now, or
do you feel like this has justbeen?
Perps (34:27):
I feel like this is just the beginning.
Actually, A lot of myexperience so far has been
preparing me for what is yet tocome.
Daniel (34:34):
Right For as much as it may feel like the beginning and
of course, it is still early inthis whole journey with chess, I
mean, you've done so muchalready.
I'd be happy if I do half ofwhat you've accomplished in 20
years Earning the WFM title andlaunching an organization
connecting with new peopleacross the globe.
(34:55):
It's really impressive.
So I'm very excited to see whatthe next coming years have for
you.
Perps (34:59):
Thank you very much, Daniel.
I'm excited to see what's next?
Daniel (35:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I want to finish myinterview with you in our chat
with a series of questions thatI close all my interviews with.
They're designed to just be fun, rapid questions.
Rapid meaning like I'll askthem quick, like they're short
questions, but you can takehowever long you want to answer
them.
Your answers don't have to berapid, okay.
So first question knights orbishops?
Perps (35:27):
Knights?
Definitely I like the idea ofthe knights because they can
just sneak up on you.
Daniel (35:35):
Right, well, I love that as an answer.
Knowing how this all began.
For you, the knights was likethe last piece you knew how it
moved.
And now one of your favorites.
So what's your favorite?
Time control.
Perps (35:51):
I would say one minute.
Yeah, sometimes, and I wouldlike you know, just play fast
game when I'm in the commute, sowhen I'm just doing something.
So I play one minute a lot justto pass time.
Daniel (36:02):
But what's your favorite opening to play as white?
Perps (36:05):
yeah, the grand prix.
I told you the story about theGrand Prix.
It's one of my favoriteopenings.
Daniel (36:10):
Yeah, yeah.
I lose to it often, so Iunderstand why it'd be your
favorite.
What's your favorite opening asBlack?
I?
Perps (36:19):
love the Queen's Indian, queen's Indian.
Yeah, I love the way.
I love openings that help mejust kind of have a setup to
attack, even though I'm playingas black.
Daniel (36:32):
Yeah, I like that answer .
I often well like.
It's not the most common answer, but it's one of the more
popular ones.
To say King's Indian.
So I haven't had someone sayQueen's Indian yet, so I like
that.
What's one word you would useto describe your playing style?
Perps (36:49):
I'd say I'm more of an aggressive chess player.
I like tactical games.
I like games that just kind ofopen up.
I love games that are justbeing so fun to chess.
Daniel (36:59):
Who is your favorite player of all time?
Perps (37:02):
Still Miketel.
Daniel (37:03):
Awesome If you could play any of the top players in
the world right now.
Who would it be?
Judith Polder, Great answer.
What's one book or course thatyou would recommend to help
people improve?
Perps (37:16):
I would recommend Calculations in Chess by Jacob
Agard.
Daniel (37:21):
What's your favorite way to study the game Meaning like?
What aspect of the game do youenjoy most to study?
Perps (37:28):
Oh, I enjoy a lot of tactics.
Mostly I enjoy a lot of tactics.
Mostly I enjoy a lot of tactics.
And I'll say, the favorite wayto study a chess game for me
would be reading some books,books that have a lot of puzzles
in them.
Daniel (37:46):
And my final question if a chess genie existed and could
grant you any one chess wish,what would you wish for?
Perps (37:57):
I would wish for every woman or every girl in the world
to know how to play chess.
Daniel (38:02):
Oh, that's fantastic.
I love that Perfect answer.
So yeah, purps, it's beenfantastic chatting with you.
I really enjoyed ourconversation and I'm honored to
have you on the show.
Like I said, I feel like thisis just the first couple of
chapters of your chess journeythat we're discussing and, given
how much you've accomplishedalready in that time, I look
forward to hearing about allthat you'll accomplish in the
coming years.
So, thank you for being on theshow and I hope to have you
(38:25):
again in the future.
Perps (38:27):
Yeah, thank you, daniel.
I hope to be on your show againwhen you know I'm getting to
the later parts of the book.
Right, exactly.
Daniel (38:36):
Exactly.
I'll definitely invite you onwhen we get to that point.
I'm sure there'll be a lot ofnew things to discuss and
exciting things that you'll haveaccomplished.
So yeah, thank you so much andI just wish you all the best
with promoting Queens and yourcoaching and, you know, any
other endeavor you you goforward with with chess.
So, thank you.
Perps (38:55):
Thank you very much, Daniel.
Have a great day.
Daniel (39:00):
Thanks for listening.
This has been a production ofmy business, adult chess Academy
, and that has a website withthe same name.
If you want to look for it, youcan also find me being way too
active on Twitter by searchingmy username, lona underscore
chess See you next week.
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