Embark on a spiritual odyssey with us as we ring in the new year with a heartfelt celebration of choir and corporate singing, brought to life by the collective genius of Greg Tomas, Doria Johnson, Mietta Stancil Farrar, and Dr. Scott Cumberbatch. We promise a journey into the theological tapestry of Charles Wesley's iconic hymn "And Can It Be That I Should Gain?" and an intimate look into the transformative power of gospel choir music in communal worship settings.
Dr. Scott Cumberbatch joins us in the Choir Room to share his extraordinary life story, weaving through the chords of music and ministry influenced by early childhood experiences and his mother's role as a minister of music. His eclectic journey from acting to teaching, and directing choirs, illustrates the profound impact of musical talent and dedication across various spheres. Meanwhile, our discussion transcends mere performance, delving into the responsibilities of music leadership and the profound connection between a choir's voice and the congregation's spirit.
The digital age may have altered our approach to finding and selecting gospel music, but the essence of choral ministry remains unchanged. As we navigate the vast online world for gospel choir music, we emphasize the importance of authenticity and the power of songs that speak to the soul. Whether it's through unearthing hidden gems or embracing the influence of independent artists, we highlight the significance of bringing true gospel messages to life, inspiring choirs to be pioneers in a continuously evolving musical landscape.
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiku8Lc-5KEAxUTmIkEHfSDCUIQFnoECBoQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fmusic.apple.com%2Fus%2Falbum%2Fhymns-from-the-heart%2F1163235681&usg=AOvVaw3Vbi_2V-cPd8859waEcS94&opi=89978449
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiku8Lc-5KEAxUTmIkEHfSDCUIQFnoECCEQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fopen.spotify.com%2Falbum%2F1ddkMzUxBLVTHT4X6vKmqO&usg=AOvVaw2j1t6i1MS442UgQrqD109s&opi=89978449
Perpetuating and Promoting the Christian and Positive Idea Through the Medium of Music and Other Arts.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
Welcome to the choir room.
This is episode 34 and 2024.
Welcome to the choir room.
Here in the Choir Room Podcast,I'm Greg Tomas, your host, and
I'm joined by my co-host.
Welcome to the choir room DoriaJohnson and Mieta Stansofarrar,
(00:22):
along with our guestcontributor today, gifted
musician, singer, songwriter,composer and choir director, dr
Scott Cumberbatch.
So here we are in the firstepisode of 2024.
(00:43):
This is episode 34 and we'reexcited about some of the
changes that are coming in thispodcast and some of the programs
and services that will becoming through Metro Music and
Arts.
Now, if you didn't listen tolast week's podcast, episode 33,
make sure you go check that outso you get more information
about that.
Now we take a moment to remindour regular listeners and those
of you who are tuning in for thefirst time, that this podcast
(01:05):
exists to promote and encouragetwo longtime traditions in our
society that seem to bedwindling away, and that is
choir and corporate singing, andwe hope to revive the
excitement and joy experiencedwith singing in a choir, as well
as inform and educate thelistener on all things singing
and all things choir.
This podcast is a production ofMetro Music and Arts, whose
(01:27):
purpose is to perpetuate andpromote the Christian and
positive idea through the mediumof music and other arts.
Now, here in the choir room, weneed you to do us a favor, if
you haven't done so already.
We ask you to subscribewherever you listen to podcasts
and then give us a thumbs upAlong with your comments and
suggestions.
We certainly welcome them andmany of them are going to be
(01:48):
implemented in this new year.
Engage in the conversation inthe choir room Facebook page and
then, finally, share with yourchoir friends, your choir
directors, your choir musicians,that you're in the choir room.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Welcome to the choir room.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Here's Dorian with the Hymn of the Week.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Thank you, greg.
Once again we are returning toour Hymn of the Week, and this
week's Hymn of the Week is aquestion.
The question is and can it bethat I should gain?
This hymn was written byCharles Wesley upon his
conversion in 1738 and was oneof the first of over 6,500 hymns
(02:33):
that he has credited withwriting, and we will indeed
visit a number of his hymns inthe coming weeks.
The title of the hymn when itwas officially published was
Free Grace and extensively drawsfrom Scripture to describe the
wonders of the great salvationthat he was granted through the
(02:56):
life, death and resurrection ofthe Lord Jesus Christ.
And the hymn begins with thequestion that is the title of
the hymn and can it be that Ishould gain an interest in the
Savior's blood?
And the question is should Igain from the Savior's shed
(03:19):
blood?
And then the second line of thefirst verse says Did he for me?
Who caused his pain, againacknowledging that the very one
who caused the pain for thisSavior was the one for whom the
Savior died.
And then he goes even furtherand says For me who him to death
(03:42):
pursued?
So not only did we causeChrist's death, but we pursued
him to the very death thatbrought us salvation.
And then the final two lines ofthis first verse are the famous
refrain of this hymn, whichsays Amazing love, how can it be
that thou, my God, should diefor me?
(04:07):
First, john, 4, 9 through 10,says in this the love of God was
made manifest among us, thatGod sent his only son into the
world so that we might livethrough him.
And this is love, not that wehave loved God, but that he
loved us and sent his son to bethe propitiation or the
(04:29):
satisfaction of God's wrath forour sins.
The second verse points us tothe mystery of the incarnation
of Christ.
It says Tis mystery.
All the immortal dies.
Who can explore his strangedesign?
When we think of the fact thatChrist, the eternal Son of God,
(04:53):
the second person of the Trinity, the one through whom all
things were created, that hetook upon himself a human nature
and went to the cross and diedin a physical death, it is very
strange.
And it's the mystery of oursalvation.
And and Wesley goes on and saysin the second verse in vain,
(05:16):
the firstborn Sarah tries tosound the depths of love divine.
What love for the eternal Sonof God to set aside the glories
of heaven and to come and humblywalk as a man, and then to go
and to die the death of a vilecriminal.
Tis mercy all.
(05:37):
Let earth adore, let angelminds inquire no more.
Verse three points to Christ'shumiliation.
He left his father strone above, so free, so infinite his grace
.
And then some renderings of thehymn say emptied himself of all
(05:57):
but love and blood for Adam'shelpless race.
The version that I typicallysing says this humbled himself,
so great his love and blood forall his chosen race.
Because, indeed, while Christdid take upon himself a human
nature, he never stopped beingGod.
(06:18):
He was fully God and fully man,and so, even as he walked upon
this earth, he was still the onewho was keeping all of the
planets and the stars in orbit.
He was the one possessing allof the attributes of divinity
and yet humbling himself to thepoint of experiencing the
(06:43):
limitations of a man.
And he went to the cross anddied for his people.
Verse three ends tis mercy allimmense and free for, oh my God,
it found out me.
Verse four Wesley alludes tovarious scenes in the New
Testament where apostles werefreed from prison and likened it
(07:07):
to his own liberation from sin.
Verse four says long, myimprisoned spirit lay fast bound
in sin.
And nature's night, thine eye,diffused a quickening ray.
I woke the dungeon flame withlight.
My chains fell off, my heartwas free, my rose went forth and
(07:28):
followed thee.
We remember the Apostle Peterwhen he was miraculously freed
from prison.
We remember Paul and Silas inthe midnight hour singing and
praising God and the earthquakeopening that prison for them.
And we who have experienced thesalvation of God know what it
(07:48):
means to be freed from thepenalty and the power of sin.
And as we end this hymn, we seethe joyous strains of those who
are in Christ when he says nocondemnation.
Now, I dread Jesus and all inhim is mine, alive in him, my
(08:11):
living head, and clothed inrighteousness.
Divine, bold, I approach theeternal throne and claim the
crown through Christ my own.
Romans eight one tells us thatthere is now, there's therefore
now, no condemnation for thosewho are in Christ.
Jesus and Hebrews four.
(08:31):
Sixteen tells us that we candraw near to the throne of grace
in confidence, seeking andreceiving mercy and grace to
help in time of need.
Indeed, this hymn, which iswritten about the testimony of
the conversion and all that Goddid for this man, in saving him
(08:55):
is the testimony of everyChristian, and as he exclaims in
the chorus, so we should aswell.
Amazing love, how can it bethat thou, my God, should die
for me?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
And our guest contributor for today, dr Scott
Cumberbatch.
My dear friend, thank you foryour yes.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Grateful for the invitation.
Always glad to be a part ofconversation with you, sir.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
And the feeling is mutual.
We've received two or threeemails over the past year
wondering when are you going?
to have Scott on.
When are you going to haveScott on?
And so we're glad to finallyget you here on the podcast and,
well, hold you while we got youto participate in the CRQ.
Ok, now, some of our listenerswill know who you are, but a
good number of them won't, andso let's take a few moments to
(09:51):
enlighten them on who the ScottCumberbatch that we know
actually is.
And, of course, we have ahistory together from the same
community, from the same circleof friends and same circle of
colleagues and ministry.
So why don't you tell ourlisteners when and how it
started for you in music andchoir and in some of the other
areas of the arts that you'vebeen involved in?
Speaker 4 (10:11):
So my days of music go all the way back to my
childhood, and while it mightnot seem that long ago, it was
30 plus years ago, 34 years agoactually.
My mother has been a musicianand minister of music for my
church for over 60 years.
So I sat alongside her andwitnessed what she was doing.
But outside of the church realm, I was an actor, and being a
(10:33):
professional actor took me notonly to the stage as an actor
but also brought me in front ofpeople as a singer, as a
musician, working with largercompanies dealing with music,
specifically on Broadway stages,and even doing voiceovers
musically, specifically theKraft macaroni and cheese, the
blue box blues as we called it.
(10:53):
One of the kids that sang onthat.
I did the Hestra commercialsinging background for three
seasons.
For that I did Burger King.
I sang on that.
So music has always been a partof my life, and so for my
formative years, though, Ididn't do any formal music
lessons much too many peopleshould grant, including my mom.
(11:14):
She put me a lesson for oneyear.
It didn't last because I wasbored out of my mind and I think
the end all be all was megetting to.
This was at the age of threebut me getting to the final
concert and they handed me atriangle to play After she paid
more than $2,000 for me to takepiano lessons.
They put me on the stage toplay a triangle and I was fit to
(11:39):
be tied, so I literally did notwant to do anything else.
When it came to that, I was notknowing what God had planned for
me, not knowing that I wouldsit down at the piano one night
while she was working nightschool at the high school where
she worked where I currentlywork at and sit down to start
playing.
And my grandfather heard me andI didn't know anything
(11:59):
different.
I just sat down and startedplaying and he told her the next
morning like before you go towork, you got to hear this boy
play.
And she's like, yeah, okay.
And she comes out of thebathroom and I'm playing.
Jesus loves me on the piano.
And what happens to still be myfavorite key, f sharp.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
And I'm playing it so funny because that's the same
key I started in Steve.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
And, but it wasn't literally just playing like one
note.
I was actually playing a littlechord here and there.
Um, and See, we talked about it, um, we've talked about it many
times before where it justseemed like this was something
that god had ordained.
And I truly believe that.
I truly believe that he hasordained me to do everything
(12:45):
that I've done, um, fromeducation to um the, the degrees
that I've gotten, to all thepeople that I've been able to
work with, um in music as wellas in acting, as well as in
education Uh, literally, god hasordained all of it to happen
and I take none of it forgranted, um, but I'm thankful
for all of it and I truly try totake all of the experiences
(13:08):
that I've had over these last 38years, um, and put that into
everything that I do every timeI sit in an instrument, every
time I stand in front of a choir, every time I sit at my desk as
an administrator in education,um, even when I was standing in
front of my class teachingEnglish and, yes, I'm in English
I was an English teacher, not amusic teacher.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Well, I was gonna let you say that a lot of people
who hear dr Scott tumberbatchassumed on this podcast that you
taught music.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
That.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
I taught music right, and though you were an English
teacher and still am, you werestill a music teacher and still
are, even though you weren't oneofficially with the School
system.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
Yes, I was an English teacher with a piano in my
classroom.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Well, there you go Always in my classroom.
You weren't an unofficial musicinstructor at uh at the school.
Because even the students knewyou from the community.
They knew of you Uh they heardyou, they, they, they would hear
you in school when I guess youwould play on your break.
You had a piano there, so ithad to be used.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
Exactly, and also was the advisor for the gospel
choir.
There was music going on in myclassroom at all times, I bet.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Let's talk a little bit about the acting.
I saw you in bad boys.
Uh, tell us how that transpired.
Bad boys one and two yeah, so,yeah.
So you had a little role there,uh, and it wasn't musical.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
No, it was, it rolled nonetheless.
Yes, sir, I played uh martinson in both of those martin's
oldest.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Now, when you consider all of these
opportunities the acting, theteaching, the Uh community choir
, the church choir, all of theother things that you've done
though these disciplines areSignificantly different from
each other, how do you see them,having come together and have
taught you lessons that stillcarry with the scott that we
know?
Speaker 4 (14:49):
From beginning to end , um.
I will say that it taught mededication, um, not to just say
I'm gonna do something, but toactually follow through what I'm
going to do.
Um.
It gave me a different level ofprofessionalism in that, um, I
take everything that I doseriously and I truly make sure
that everybody that I work withthey understand that if you ask
(15:11):
me to do something, I'm going todo it to the best of my ability
.
If I can't do it like you wantright now, give me a few minutes
and I'll get it to where itneeds to be.
Um.
It also taught me all of theexperiences taught me
accountability To know thatwhether I'm the person that's
performing or if I'm the personthat's leading, or both at the
same time, I'm always going tobe accountable for my actions.
(15:32):
And if I'm responsible forleading others, I'm going to
make sure that they understandwhat accountability is to.
We can't give 50 percent.
We got to give 100 at all times.
If you're unable to give 100,at least be honorable enough to
step up and say I can't do that,um, and maybe you want to find
someone else.
There's no love lost.
But again, it shows that thereneeds to be accountability, um,
(15:55):
even with dealing with my choirsnow, uh, whether it be the
church choir, my state choir, myhome church choir, the choir
that I just formed and recordedwith, whatever the case is, um,
the first thing that it alwaysstarts with is prayer To
understand that we need to bringour minds and our hearts
together and that we've only gotone mission, and that mission
(16:15):
is to minister to god and to hispeople.
Um, it's his job to speakthrough us, to sing through us
and all that stuff.
We just got to be willing atopen vessels, um, and the
experiences that I had, uh, withbroadway.
I think that really gave me theunderstanding of taking care of
my instrument, um, and not justthe one that I play, but even in
(16:38):
my voice and my uh vocal foldsand all of that Taking care of
them, not over exerting myself,making sure that I understand
what rest is, um, I'm not justgoing to sleep at night, but
actually just resting, nottalking, and not over working.
Um, um, making sure that I'mproperly hydrated, um, so all of
these things help to play amajor role into what I've become
(17:01):
, um, and I still sit backsometimes and think about some
of the things that I learnedthat I don't always implement Um
and say, okay, I need to makethis change, you need to make
that change.
Ever growing and revolving.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah, and we don't ever grow or evolve without the
help of others.
There are people who haveinfluenced you in your
professional career, in youryour music and ministry career.
Tell us a bit about thoseinfluences and influencers.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Well, I laugh about it.
Um, I'll start with the actingthat I go to the music.
So the acting side, that kindof just happened.
Um, that one year that I was inthe music program I was the
yamaha music program.
Um, here in new jerry, inparameters, new jersey.
Um, there was a young man thatwas an actor.
He actually was on the showwho's the boss?
Um, he was adopted later on andif you ever watched the cosby
(17:49):
show Um, his name was jonathanand he had the froggy voice that
dr Cosby only used to make funof Um, he and I went to piano
lessons together and his mothersaid to my mother your kid's got
a great personality, I thinkthat he should really try out
for this.
And my mother's like, yeah,right, of course, the stories
that we all heard were GaryColeman and the different
strokes, kids and all the stuffthey went through and how they
(18:12):
went left and it could have goneright.
And so she was like, yeah, I'mnot gonna do that.
And my godmother was the onethat convinced her to let me do
that.
So when it came to that,literally it was just kind of
like, okay, I auditioned for arole, I saw what they wanted and
just gave them what they askedfor, to the best of my ability.
And 14 and a half years I didcommercials, I did movies, I did
(18:34):
Broadway, I did a couple ofactors, equity workshops, I did,
like I said, the voiceovers.
So it was literally just again,god's hand in all of it,
because I didn't take any formalacting lessons either.
I just I'm that personality.
I guess I tried not to be achameleon, but if I have to be,
I will be.
To a certain extent I'm notgiving up my values to get a
(18:56):
role.
When it came to music, it, likeI said, it starts right at home.
My mother, I sat next to herand was plunking here and there
on the piano and she would hitmy hand don't do that and
teaching me here and there.
And then it went from meplaying one hand to two hands
and then moving over just alittle bit more and she ended up
(19:18):
directing the choir, now notplaying anymore, and I'm playing
for the choir and now she's ina state of fully retired and
doesn't want to play at all.
But she does play for lack of abetter word sporadically she
does play still.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Well, you know, for you to be playing and her to be
directing, that had to be thedynamic duo.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
And then one of the church decided to buy an organ.
Then she was on the piano, Iwas on the organ, so we were
able to do that.
At one point I had my keyboardsat the church.
So, yeah, it was yeah for agood 15 years.
That was prophetic.
That was what we did at thechurch.
And then also I had anotheryoung lady who has now passed
(20:02):
away, but she was the ministerof music at the time of Ebenezer
Baptist in Englewood, margaretGales.
It was because of her that mymusic went a little bit further.
She heard me playing at aservice and was like, yeah, I
need him to come and play forthe church, because she wanted
me to play for the youth choirYouth choirs, because that
(20:24):
church actually had three youthchoirs, different ages and so I
went in with her and she was theone that really forced me into
learning to read music.
When I was in grammar school Itook on the alto saxophone for a
hot spell and of course withthat you had to read music, and
so I was doing a little bit hereand there.
But she came to me, we werepreparing for Easter and she
(20:49):
decided that she was going to do.
Surely he has born our grieffrom the Messiah.
And she said now, I played itfor the last couple of years,
you're playing it this year.
And I was like, no, I'm not.
She said, yes, you are.
I said it, here's the music.
As you walked away and I'm like, oh Lord, I have two months to
prepare.
And, of course, looking foranybody that's never looked at
sheet music before or neverlooked at that kind of sheet
(21:11):
music before, it was like tryingto read trigonometry and I'm
like I don't know what this is.
And then when I flipped thepage, I was like, okay, I just
went from math to Greek, Ireally don't know what this is.
And so it literally little bylittle, little by little, I was
taking it and I learned it, andthen it pushed me into learning
(21:32):
to sight read even more andfocusing on that.
So she was a major influencethere.
Of course, robin Edward Fairleywas another major influence that
both of us share and, again, Idon't really talk about it often
but, greg, even you were amajor influence, because I sat
back and I watched and Ilistened to what you did.
For those of you that havenever heard him play, for those
(21:55):
that are listening to this, hewas Patterson's Richard
Smallwood.
To me, smallwood was always oneof my icons from afar that I
listened to.
Smallwood, hawkins, crouch,james, cleveland, those were
like the four major people.
But when you sat down, greg, ata piano and just played,
(22:15):
literally I heard RichardSmallwood right in front of me
and so I paid attention to that.
I listened to a lot of what youdid.
I listened to what you did withvocals and how you would
arrange different things, someof the writing that you did, and
it became a major part of mythinking in the way that I
started even composing.
Another person is Michael Butlerand, for a little bit, his dad,
(22:40):
pastor William Butler, the latePastor William Butler.
But Mike was the reason that Istarted writing.
He said to me when I startedplaying for the William
Patterson Gospel Choir he waslike there's composition in you.
And I was like, yeah, no, I'man English major and I'll be
okay with that.
I can write lyrics.
I'm not trying to write anymusic, I'll play everybody
else's music, I'm good with that.
(23:01):
He was like, no, there'ssomething else in you.
And he didn't know that he wasspeaking in something into
existence, because literally ayear later I'm sitting in my car
on campus waiting for class tostart and this song just starts
playing in my head and I waslike I gotta write this down.
I grabbed my notebook out of theback of the truck and I'm
(23:21):
writing stuff down.
I was like I gotta get to apractice room and I ran to one
of the practice rooms in Sheaand the very first song, which
is now a GIA published song,frazier the Lord, was the very
first song that I wrote in 2005.
And I played it back for himand he was like, dude, we gotta
sing this, we gotta do it.
And I played it for themusicians and they were like we
gotta do it.
(23:41):
I was like, really, is thatgood?
And they were like, yeah, wegotta do it, we gotta do it.
Praise the Lord.
Praise the Lord.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
And his name is Shea.
Praise the Lord, praise theLord.
And his name is Shea.
Praise the Lord, praise theLord.
And his name is Shea.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, and his name is
Shea.
Praise the Lord, praise theLord and his name is Shea.
And the choir fell in love withit, he fell in love with it,
and so I was just yeah.
And then, when it came to theorgan itself, elder Terrence
(24:40):
Kitchen's has been one of mymajor influences, because the
Hammond is not, it's not for theweek, and so listening to him
and listening to Miyaida's latestepmother, elder Deborah
Burgess, there's so many ElderRay Hageans, there's so many
people that came through thiscity when it came to playing
(25:03):
traditional gospel, professorLloyd Rees, that was the man to
listen to, to get thattraditional sound, to know where
to go, what to do with it.
Yeah, so those were my hands-oninfluences.
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
So we've kind of drawn from the same well in
terms of that pool of people andall of them, you know, and so
many of them I wish were stillhere, because I think this
generation, this generation hasno idea what they're missing by
not having them.
They don't know they don't knowwhat, what a choir is capable
(25:40):
of.
Ricky Burgess is standing infront of them.
Gloria Ose is standing in frontof them.
You know, they just don't, theydon't understand.
And that doesn't mean we don'thave great ones today.
I just think that we are intime and season and this
generation where the emphasis ismore about the individual and
(26:03):
less about the collective, andso the full potential of what a
choir or singing aggregation canbe, is being lost, dorian.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Scott, thank you so much for being with us.
It's interesting because,having worked with Greg, I heard
sort of the same story of ayoung kid sitting down at a
piano and just starting to play.
And then you got, you had thesame, the same story, and I and
(26:36):
I know there are many people outthere that hear that and go oh,
I want to do that.
I just want to sit down andstart playing.
One day you gotta go to church.
Some of them do.
Believe me there's one righthere saying I wish I could just
(26:56):
sit down and start playing.
But I guess my question for youis yes, and I believe God does
give gifts to his people, butwhat has what, then, did you
have to do in terms of workingon that gift that you were given
?
And then I guess my second partof the question is I did have
(27:18):
the opportunity to hear theensemble that you led at the at
the choir anniversary that youhad invited us to.
I have to say it was at sixpeople that were in that
ensemble.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
And Dave.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Yeah, I only had like five or six that day, yeah, and
let me tell you, when theyopened their mouth, I don't have
any hair and my hair flew back.
And so and you, you talkedabout just not feeling as if
that was a place you wanted togo either.
(27:59):
And so can you just talk to usa little bit about how you went
to developing your gift, whetherit was playing piano, whether
it was leading the, leading achoir, and getting the most out
of people, even if they don'tnecessarily think that they have
any more to give?
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat as well?
Speaker 4 (28:18):
Sure, Thank you For playing.
It was literally just just keepdoing it, just keep playing,
and that's all I've ever done.
I'm not that one that sits downat the piano or the organ and
practices four and five hours aday.
I've never been that person.
Not that I'm not dedicated toit, but because of how keen my
(28:39):
ear has always been and then, ofcourse, reading music helped to
develop that even the more Iwas able to just sit down and,
for lack of a better, figure itout and make it make sense, make
the chords what I heard.
I literally played what I heardand even now I still play what
(29:00):
I hear, trying not to take awayfrom what the artistry is, as
well as remembering that I'm theaccompanist to the choir.
I'm not overplaying them.
I'm always going to liveunderneath where the choir is
singing or where the soul was tosinging.
As a director and, uh yeah, achoir director and leader, it
literally came from watchingwhat others have done.
(29:22):
Um, and I'm also a part of um,our national association with,
from which I am the um, theminister of music now for the
national association church ofGod, and I also am a part of the
national commensin of gospelchoirs and choruses.
So being in and Hampton, uh,hampton university ministers
conference at Oregon is skilledas well.
So being in those spaces withothers who were doing the same
(29:43):
thing, um, I literally have justtaken what other people have
done and, as the old adage is,if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
So I've just emulated what I'veseen others do.
Um, with a heart for the people, with a heart for the purpose
of what it is that we do, andmaking sure, again, that it's
all glorifying God.
Um, choirs can be very difficultto deal with because you deal
(30:06):
with multiple personalitiessimultaneously, um, and that's
the church choir, the communitychoir, the ensemble, the quartet
, the tree, whatever.
When there's more than oneperson and more than one
personality, you're always goingto deal with issues.
I do my best to be that personto help to solve the problems.
I like solutions more than Ilike problems created.
Um, because problems createdjust open up the door for more
(30:29):
issues to come down the pipe.
Um, but I started leading all ofmy choirs with the premise of
okay, remember what Lucifer 'sjob was and remember who he
thought he was.
We are not going to be thatgroup of people that says turn
me up and my turn my mic up.
I can't hear myself in the mix,but we are going to be doing
this, as Psalm 133 says.
Behold how good and howpleasant it is for brethren to
(30:51):
do out together in unity.
If we can't be unified, then wecan't do this, because then
it's going to be a horrific mess.
Um, but we all have to be onthe same page, understanding
that we're serving and singingfor the same God, for the same
purpose.
It's not about the awards, it'snot about the accolades, it's
not about the money.
It's not about any of that.
It's about pleasing God.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Yeah, let's lead the church choir for a moment and go
to the college choir, becauseyou've had an opportunity to um,
to work with the college choiras well, uh, college gospel
choir, and I think sometimes wewe are winning more people than
we realize, because not alwaysin a gospel choir at the school
is everybody that's involved inthat choir Maybe necessarily a
(31:34):
Christian.
Some people just love gospelmusic and um, but you're winning
more people sometimes than yourealize.
Very true, Talk to us a littlebit about the difference in
approach from church choir andcollege choir.
Even though they're both gospelchoirs, the approach can
oftentimes, uh, be different.
What was your experience?
Speaker 4 (31:54):
So, working with that choir, working with that choir?
Um, like I said, when I went toWayne Patterson, michael Butler
was the person over the choir,um, and he made me the musical
director.
So I was working with the band.
Um, thankfully, all of themusicians that we were working
with at the time were um churchkids.
Um, in fact, my drummer, hisfather was a pastor, so
(32:15):
literally I got a PK, anotherchurch kid from um that was on
saxophone, from Alabama, thebass player was a church kid
right from Patterson.
So we we had that commonalitywith those that were coming in
to take the class for credit,because it wasn't actual course,
it was a three credit course.
Um, we would often you don't seethat often, no, and believe it
or not, the course wasdiscontinued about 10 years ago.
(32:36):
They're trying to revamp it andbring it back now, um, and so
they're trying to bring both ofus back to work with it.
I'm like, hey, that'll work, um, but with that, one thing that
um Mike did and I was always upfor was, not only did we have
the time of, okay, let's learn,learn, learn, let's learn these
(32:58):
songs, let's get ready forconcerts, but he would do those
midnight sessions and say, okay,we have rehearsal from seven to
nine 40 on Sunday, but nowwe're going to have just a
powwow, we're going to sit andwe're going to talk, um, just to
kind of see where people were,especially for those that were
coming in, just for credit.
You could say, if you wanted to, you didn't have to.
99% of the time people stayedbecause they wanted to know what
(33:20):
was going on, because now itwas more about becoming a family
and a unit than it was justabout getting up and singing
music.
And one thing that he did thatI actually have started to take
the other choir is we did aretreat every year, and that
retreat was funded by the school.
We would go off campus to aspace up in the Poconos for
(33:43):
three or four days, um, learningabout the music, but then again
just having those sessionswhere we could just sit and rap,
those fireside chats, thosemidnight chats, um, with no TVs.
The place that we went to was aresort, um, that had no TVs.
It had all the food we needed,had the beds that we needed, um,
and they took care of us, um,we were able to minister to a
(34:06):
whole lot of people.
I mean, you had people that camein, one young lady who now is
one of my dearest friends, um,she came in and she was like I
came from church but I also camefrom the streets, and coming
from the streets, like she wasready to rap and do all of this
stuff.
She was a vocal major, aclassical vocal major, um, and
since was rough.
Now, I mean, we're talkingabout thanks to the relationship
(34:28):
that relationships that shebuilt through the choir.
We're talking about somebodythat's an ordained minister in
the church.
Her voice is absolutelyphenomenal.
She is a recording artist now.
So it's all of these thingscatapulted from her being
connected to the WilliamPatterson gospel choir.
Um, so, in seeing Mike do that,I took that when I went to arts
(34:48):
and, like I said, I was theadvisor for the gospel choir
there, um, and of course, in theschool setting, thankfully, I
had three principals, um, thatwere all believers and they
pretty much gave me freedom todo what we needed to do, so they
didn't restrict us from oh, youcan't say Jesus.
They were fine, um, and theywould deal with whatever they
whatever backlash came.
Most of the time, nothing thatcame of it anyway, um, but they
(35:12):
knew that there was a familyunit that was being created with
that Um, and I would talk tothe kids like, listen, just
because I'm a gospel choiradvisor, even if you never have
me as a teacher, my door isalways open to you.
Come, sit, talk to me, um.
Who I didn't talk to aboutsuicide?
Who I didn't talk to aboutacademic success?
Who I didn't talk to about, um,even future plans?
(35:34):
Who I didn't talk to about teenpregnancy?
I mean, I had a couple of kidsthat got pregnant while they
were in high school and I saidto them this is not the end,
this doesn't have to be the endfor you.
You can still go and grow andyou can still do more, um.
And to this day, I've been gonefrom arts now for five years,
um.
But some of these kids thatgraduated in 2008 and 2010,.
(35:56):
One of them, um, actually singsin my choir now.
Um, and he worked with me forthree years when I was at Mount
Calvary during the pandemic.
I just happened to call him onenight and said dad, I wish you
were in town because he lived inPhiladelphia.
He was like, well, I happenedto be at what you need.
And that one knee turned intothree years consecutively three
years of him working with meover at Mount Calvary in the
(36:19):
middle of the pandemic.
Um, so I was able to buildthose relationships.
But a lot of them even comeback and say now, had it not
been for coming to gospel choir,they don't know what they would
have done.
Uh, because some of them lostparents while they were in high
school.
Some of them, their parentsdidn't care about them when they
went to high school, after highschool and even still now, um,
some of them came from greathomes, but their parents were
(36:41):
like, well, they in yourpossession, they're under your
control and you take care ofwhat you need to take care of,
um, and I appreciated thatbecause, again.
You don't have that old schoolparenting.
If you go to school and youmess up, the teacher can only
say, but so much to you.
We didn't have that.
Thankfully I didn't have that.
I was like, no, do what youneed to do, um.
And I was like, okay, um, soyeah.
(37:04):
That approach again even helpedme to understand that people
are still people and even thoughthey're in the choir at church,
they might still be dealingwith the same issues.
So now you got to look beyondthe music and look at the people
and see what it is that thepeople need Um, and those
experiences between WilliamPatterson and our time really
helped to cultivate that in meas a leader.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Wonderful.
So we say it often in thispodcast that it is part the
responsibility of the choirdirector or the music director
to ensure that they arecultivating an environment of
community and family amongst thechoir, because that's what
makes a strong, healthy choir achoir that is attractive.
So, beyond the music and beyondthe singing and the recording,
(37:49):
what is it that you want peopleto walk away with after having
worked with you or recorded withyou or served with you?
Speaker 4 (37:56):
With a renewed understanding of what choir is,
um, and an appreciation for thechoir.
Um, that's what we grew up with.
We grew up with hearing choirs.
I mean, from Sunday afternoongoing to choir days to just
visiting people's churches andhearing choirs, be they small or
large.
We just knew choir music and Iwant people to understand that
(38:21):
again.
Going back to that whole ideaof it goes beyond the music.
It's a church, it's a gardenstate they had.
Their theme has always beenit's more than music, it's a
ministry.
And we can do so much more ifwe come together collectively,
understanding that it is aministry.
Whether in the secular realm orin the church, it's still a
ministry because people stillhave needs that we can minister
(38:45):
to, no matter what, and youreally don't get to see those
needs until you connect heart toheart.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Yeah, and that's a real thing and I couldn't agree
more.
In the background you'relistening to Be Still and Know
by Dr Scott Cumberbatch and thechoir, and you can find that
music and all of the otherprojects of his hymns from the
heart, one in two, availableanywhere.
You find good music, scott,thanks again for joining us
tonight and allowing us to peekinto your ministry and into your
(39:14):
musical life.
And, as I said earlier, becausewe have you now, we're going to
hold you over for the CRQ andhave you input on that as well.
Sounds good, and that has ourCRQ for the day.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Thanks so much, greg.
Once again, this is the firstCRQ of the year, of the new year
, and so our CRQ this evening isthis looking for gospel choir
music any suggestions on whereto find it?
Now, we know this is the choirroom.
Looking for gospel gospel musicany suggestions?
(39:44):
Good gospel music, anysuggestions on where to find it?
Something that I had expressedto Greg a few days ago, that is,
this question, came aboutduring a conversation that I was
having with a fellow colleaguein music ministry and we were
just talking about music andwhat's out today versus what
(40:09):
we've listened to growing up,and so and I begin to say to
them that listen, I have startedlistening to choir music again,
and I can thank Greg Thomas forthat, because, because of this
choir room podcast, I had to goback and start listening again,
because, I have to say, behonest about it, I had stopped.
(40:32):
Now I'm a gospel music singer,right Right, but I had stopped
listening to a lot of the gospelthat we hear, and so if I
should put it on at all, if Ishould turn it on at all, it was
usually something from 1980,something and down, you know.
(40:53):
So that's pretty much where Istayed.
That was the vein in which I,every morning I was getting up.
There was one song inparticular that that would play
in my house once a day, and thiswas going on for this almost a
year now, and that's full andcomplete by Walter.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Is that what?
I'm not sure.
If it was, walter.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Walter Hawkins.
Yeah, we'll get the rightbrother right, walter Hawkins.
And that plays once a day everyweek.
So when they, when you start totalk to me about good choir
choir music, I immediately goback 2025 years.
That's my first stop.
Unfortunately, there has thereno, I won't say unfortunately,
(41:31):
but fortunately there has beenquite a bit of music from that
time to this.
So I'm kind of feeling likeColeman in this, a little bit
Greg with context.
Now, because this question didnot specify what age group these
choirs might be in the churches.
I know Dorian is like why dothey have so many choirs?
Speaker 3 (41:54):
I get it.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
I get it, you get it, okay.
Oh, we have so many.
Speaker 3 (42:01):
I don't get it either I understand, I don't get it.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Yeah, I mean we had quite a few.
So when I was listening andjust kind of going over this
question, I guess it depends onwhat the house needs.
I don't think that you shouldalways pull from the top 40 for
certain congregations.
Certain congregations, theyjust it doesn't.
(42:29):
It doesn't fit.
Not all of the stuff that welisten to every day, our regular
listening to, we could theirgood listening songs, but not
necessarily the best fit for thechurch choir, which you know
that happens with all of us.
We have our favorites, we haveour favorite songs that we love
to listen to, but we know, as achoir director, this might not,
(42:51):
it might land flat in thecongregation in which we serve
in.
You have to be very careful inpicking and choosing.
I said this once before.
My father was notorious for, youknow, at the time we had LPs,
the records.
You know you had the side a andside B and you know the hot
song was usually on side a,right, but the jewels, the gyms,
(43:15):
were on the B side.
That right Nobody was singing.
But and I have to say, by theway, because that was my biggest
musical influence, a lot of thesongs that Bible way saying
back in that time came from theB side of the record and people
were trying to figure outwhere'd you get that, where'd
you find that?
How are y'all singing it?
(43:36):
And nobody else is singing it.
Well, if you turn the recordover, you turn it over, there it
is, and it like we would neverhave thought to do that.
See, you see, you see whathappens.
So you know, don't just assumethat Just because they're
playing it on the radio thatthis is going to be the best fit
for the church.
So that's why this, thisquestion, I'm going to toss it
(43:59):
to you, wise gentlemen, you allwise gentlemen.
So, gentlemen, what?
Speaker 4 (44:07):
say you want to tap into that.
So there's a few parts that Iwant to happen to you.
So you talk about going back tothat era and I know that word
was used on you earlier this Acertain era that you represent.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
But I'm still trying to recover.
Speaker 4 (44:25):
But even in thinking about that, that era of music
from the 60s to the early 90s,when you talk about going from
Andre Crouch to the HawkinsBrothers to Smallwood, to Thomas
Whitfield, to the Tommy's, tothere's so many institutional
(44:46):
over in New York to the Bibleway recording choir, there's so
many choirs that, of course,james Cleveland with GMWA they
recorded every year.
So every year there was aconference, there was a new
recording coming out and I thinkI'm like your late dad, I was
always, I'm always that personthat finds the jewels on the
project and it may notnecessarily be the song that you
(45:08):
hear on the radio, but it'sjust that song that stands out
because there's something aboutthe lyrics that stand out or
there's something about thelyrics and the way the lyrics
are married to the melody thatstands out.
That I feel like will fit.
But yes, I definitely agree onpicking stuff that fits the
house.
In serving in the last churchwhere I was for eight years, my
(45:28):
assistant minister of music wasone who liked to follow the top
40 and I said, well, define whatthe top 40 is.
And then, like six months later, I said well, define what the
top 40 is and the definitionchange.
I said, and this is the problem, are we looking at what's being
played on the radio?
Are we looking at what's goingto minister to the people?
(45:49):
The church where we were had alarge conglomeration of
traditional, loving people.
So for us to go and pull outthe latest Ricky Dillard song
might not necessarily be thebest thing.
Even though I had a few voicesthat could do it, I knew all of
my voices couldn't do it becauseI had seasoned saints that were
(46:10):
beyond, like into theirseventies and some older than
that.
I didn't want to push them, butif I gave them something like
going reaching back to 84 to allin his hand, that minister to
them or reaching back to DouglasMiller would pass me, not that
minister to them, and you wouldsee the folks jumping up or even
going into the nineties withorder my steps.
The folks are jumping up inthis scene.
(46:31):
Or the singing.
There is no way million choirshave re recorded that song but
that song goes back to theeighties with the Tommy's like.
That song is almost as old as Iam, literally all the goals I
am.
So again you got to know whatfits and I think a lot of the
artists now, a lot of therecording artists now have
figured out that in theirtemplate they've got to add one
(46:53):
song that's already beenrecorded somewhere because they
know that's going to grab thepeople.
So you want to keep introducingnew stuff on your project but
you got to get that one classic.
If you go back and grab thatone classic and that's something
that somebody pointed out to meabout us with our recording
Like we did a lot of old stuff,a lot of new stuff, a lot of new
stuff, a lot of new stuff.
(47:14):
But I went back and I pulled outstretch out from institutional
and I pulled Dr Margaret DeRose,give me a clean heart.
The moment that I said we'regoing to sing just a few minutes
of the old classic song writtenby Dr Margaret Pleasant DeRose
that just says give me a cleanheart.
The church was ready to go up.
Then I'm like we didn't evensee anything yet, but again it
(47:37):
ministered and this was thesewere people of all ages.
So, like you said before me,like somebody prayed for me.
You got to think about that.
Somebody did pray for us,because if they hadn't prayed
for us, where would we have been?
Well, some of the stuff andsome of the people that we hung
out with, some of the people wewent to school with.
It could have been anything.
I mean just getting behind thewheel of a car and driving
(47:57):
somewhere.
Thank God somebody prayed forus because we got behind that
wheel, driving that all kind ofcrazy speed and anything could
have happened, but we made ithome safely, we made it to our
destination safely becausesomebody was praying for us.
And so I always warned all choirdirectors, all ministers of
music, musicians when you'rechoosing songs, make sure that
(48:20):
they are gospel and not justinspirational, because the
gospel is never going to fadeaway.
The Bible tells you that theflower fades, but the word of
the Lord, with whatever standson, as long as you're singing
Bible, it's never going to goout of style.
And you can be that innovativeperson and take it and update it
(48:40):
, if you want to, just a littlebit.
Of course, don't steal awayfrom what the composer gave, but
maybe just add a little twisthere and there if you want to
just update it to make it sounda little bit more contemporary.
But that's always my suggestionJust make sure that you're
paying attention to the lyricsand make sure that you're paying
attention to the house.
Speaker 3 (48:58):
I was going to say.
I mean, there are plenty ofplaces you can look, but I'm
going to go back to somethingScott said.
I mean we have to get back towhere we're evaluating the songs
that we're singing andcomparing them to the word of
God, because we are in a timewhere people are trying to
(49:20):
redefine truth and say whattruth is, but we know that the
Bible is the only truth, theultimate truth, and so if we are
going to have any kind oflasting ministry, it has to be
(49:40):
founded on, based on, rooted in,grounded in the word of God.
And so, as you're evaluatingsongs to sing, my advice would
be where can you find, thoughnot necessarily even those words
, but those principles, thatconcept, all of those things?
Where can you find that?
In the Bible, because that's,ultimately, it's the word of God
(50:05):
that impacts people's hearts,it's the word of God that
changes people, that convictspeople, that conforms them to
the image of Christ.
And so that would be my advicefor folks as they're thinking
about music music to sing.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Yeah, I think the mere mention of you know,
because the question was wherecan we find good gospel music
for choir?
The mere mention of gospelconnotes that this is probably a
church choir or somebody askingon behalf of a church choir.
But to our previousconversation with God with
(50:44):
regards to the college choir, Idon't want to assume that the
person asking the question isnot a college choir gospel choir
person looking for music fortheir gospel choir in their
school.
Now I want to point outsomething, because that Scott
was speaking about hisinfluences, but it triggered
(51:06):
something in me and I had towalk away and and pick up
something.
Now our listeners can't seethis, but you guys can see this.
Take a look at this.
I'm going to do something here.
You can't just go out and dothis anymore.
You can't find that right there.
Speaker 4 (51:25):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 2 (51:26):
You see, what that is .
Speaker 4 (51:27):
Yes, sir, church of love, that's that's professor.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Now, that's the B side.
Notice what's highlighted onthe B side the one song that
everybody, at least in the localchurch community, Lord.
I'm running was Lord.
I'm running Trying to make ahundred.
Yes, sir, right, 99 and a half.
That was the staple, and I justhappened to have this over here
(51:55):
.
I've got hundreds of them, wow.
This one on the top because Iwas trying a new LP a few weeks
ago, but it didn't stop there.
This is the LP from the firstrecording that I ever attended.
Now, for our audience again,I'm holding up for them to see
LPs.
These are albums, vinyl LPs,long play.
(52:16):
Now, this was the firstrecording, live recording, that
I had ever attended, and thiswas my choir director at the
time.
Yep, william.
Keeble Hardy Gilmore MemorialTabernacle one of the finest
choirs in the area and, believeit or not, that's available now
on Apple Music because I have it.
Speaker 4 (52:32):
Well, I got the LP and the sleeve.
I do too.
It's right, it's right overhere.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Well, this is how we used to find new music for choir
.
You heard a song on the radio,or two.
If you're lucky, you heard twofrom one project, but usually it
was just one that the label waspushing or the industry was
pushing, and you had to buy theentire album.
You couldn't, you couldn'tselect the track yet to buy the
whole thing.
Now, obviously, today, that's alot different and a lot easier.
(53:01):
You can buy single tracks ifyou hear a song that you like.
There's a lot more access, butthere's also a lot more music,
and so, between Apple Music andSpotify, amazon Music and all of
the other services out there inaddition to YouTube, you're
going to have to spend some timefinding music that fits your
group, and so you almost have toknow what kind of music you're
(53:25):
looking for, and I don't mean interms of genre.
If you're looking for gospelmusic, as this writer stated,
then you have to almost knowwhat, what style of gospel music
you're looking for, and thenyou have to go into this
exhaustive search.
You can take the top 40approach and listen to what's
what's you know, most populartoday, or, if you want to do the
(53:47):
B side, and we.
We talk about the B side,that's the stuff that's a little
less popular, which I love,because I realized that there's
a lot more jewels on the B sideof a project, or or the songs
that the industry is not pushing.
That are great songs.
And so if you want your choirto be a trendsetter and not just
a trend follower, where yourchoir is sounding like every
(54:09):
other choir, I suggest you do asearch for gospel choir music
and then, when you start to seethe top 40, the more popular
artists, I suggest you skipthose and start to explore more
independent artists, becauseyou're going to find music that
may not be mainstream in termsof the industry, but certainly
music that is hitting the mark.
It's got the gospel message,it's got the vibe and it can be
(54:32):
executed well by your choir, myLord.
And then there's that Now,whether you get music from
online or whether you get itfrom attending a conference,
which is another place where youcan always find new material,
great material go to some of thegospel music conferences Scott
mentioned a few of them earlierand if you can't get to some of
the national conventions orconferences, then look for some
(54:53):
of the workshops and seminarsthat are happening in your area,
but there is a lot of music outthere that is not being heard
on radio and because we areinundated with so much music
today online, you're going tohave to do some searching.
But be specific on what you'relooking for, and I think that
will cut down on the time youspend looking for new music.
(55:14):
Now, we've all said it heretoday and we say it often in
this podcast.
Dorian, hit on it If you'relooking for gospel music for
your choir, then you have tomake sure that it has the gospel
in it.
I like to say it this way Makesure that your song is laced and
lined with the gospel of truth.
Thanks again, dorian and Mietta, and, of course, to our guest
contributor, scott Cumberbatch.
(55:35):
And remember, friends, if everwe put the messenger before the
message, we have failed topresent an unblemished gospel.
I'm Greg Thomas.
Join us again next week righthere in the choir room.
Welcome to the choir room.
This is episode 34 and 2024.
Welcome to the choir room.
Here in the Choir Room Podcast,I'm Greg Tomas, your host, and
I'm joined by my co-host.
Welcome to the choir room DoriaJohnson and Mieta Stansofarrar,
(00:22):
along with our guestcontributor today, gifted
musician, singer, songwriter,composer and choir director, dr
Scott Cumberbatch.
So here we are in the firstepisode of 2024.
(00:43):
This is episode 34 and we'reexcited about some of the
changes that are coming in thispodcast and some of the programs
and services that will becoming through Metro Music and
Arts.
Now, if you didn't listen tolast week's podcast, episode 33,
make sure you go check that outso you get more information
about that.
Now we take a moment to remindour regular listeners and those
of you who are tuning in for thefirst time, that this podcast
(01:05):
exists to promote and encouragetwo longtime traditions in our
society that seem to bedwindling away, and that is
choir and corporate singing, andwe hope to revive the
excitement and joy experiencedwith singing in a choir, as well
as inform and educate thelistener on all things singing
and all things choir.
This podcast is a production ofMetro Music and Arts, whose
(01:27):
purpose is to perpetuate andpromote the Christian and
positive idea through the mediumof music and other arts.
Now, here in the choir room, weneed you to do us a favor, if
you haven't done so already.
We ask you to subscribewherever you listen to podcasts
and then give us a thumbs upAlong with your comments and
suggestions.
We certainly welcome them andmany of them are going to be
(01:48):
implemented in this new year.
Engage in the conversation inthe choir room Facebook page and
then, finally, share with yourchoir friends, your choir
directors, your choir musicians,that you're in the choir room.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Welcome to the choir room.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Here's Dorian with the Hymn of the Week.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Thank you, greg.
Once again we are returning toour Hymn of the Week, and this
week's Hymn of the Week is aquestion.
The question is and can it bethat I should gain?
This hymn was written byCharles Wesley upon his
conversion in 1738 and was oneof the first of over 6,500 hymns
(02:33):
that he has credited withwriting, and we will indeed
visit a number of his hymns inthe coming weeks.
The title of the hymn when itwas officially published was
Free Grace and extensively drawsfrom Scripture to describe the
wonders of the great salvationthat he was granted through the
(02:56):
life, death and resurrection ofthe Lord Jesus Christ.
And the hymn begins with thequestion that is the title of
the hymn and can it be that Ishould gain an interest in the
Savior's blood?
And the question is should Igain from the Savior's shed
(03:19):
blood?
And then the second line of thefirst verse says Did he for me?
Who caused his pain, againacknowledging that the very one
who caused the pain for thisSavior was the one for whom the
Savior died.
And then he goes even furtherand says For me who him to death
(03:42):
pursued?
So not only did we causeChrist's death, but we pursued
him to the very death thatbrought us salvation.
And then the final two lines ofthis first verse are the famous
refrain of this hymn, whichsays Amazing love, how can it be
that thou, my God, should diefor me?
(04:07):
First, john, 4, 9 through 10,says in this the love of God was
made manifest among us, thatGod sent his only son into the
world so that we might livethrough him.
And this is love, not that wehave loved God, but that he
loved us and sent his son to bethe propitiation or the
(04:29):
satisfaction of God's wrath forour sins.
The second verse points us tothe mystery of the incarnation
of Christ.
It says Tis mystery.
All the immortal dies.
Who can explore his strangedesign?
When we think of the fact thatChrist, the eternal Son of God,
(04:53):
the second person of the Trinity, the one through whom all
things were created, that hetook upon himself a human nature
and went to the cross and diedin a physical death, it is very
strange.
And it's the mystery of oursalvation.
And and Wesley goes on and saysin the second verse in vain,
(05:16):
the firstborn Sarah tries tosound the depths of love divine.
What love for the eternal Sonof God to set aside the glories
of heaven and to come and humblywalk as a man, and then to go
and to die the death of a vilecriminal.
Tis mercy all.
(05:37):
Let earth adore, let angelminds inquire no more.
Verse three points to Christ'shumiliation.
He left his father strone above, so free, so infinite his grace
.
And then some renderings of thehymn say emptied himself of all
(05:57):
but love and blood for Adam'shelpless race.
The version that I typicallysing says this humbled himself,
so great his love and blood forall his chosen race.
Because, indeed, while Christdid take upon himself a human
nature, he never stopped beingGod.
(06:18):
He was fully God and fully man,and so, even as he walked upon
this earth, he was still the onewho was keeping all of the
planets and the stars in orbit.
He was the one possessing allof the attributes of divinity
and yet humbling himself to thepoint of experiencing the
(06:43):
limitations of a man.
And he went to the cross anddied for his people.
Verse three ends tis mercy allimmense and free for, oh my God,
it found out me.
Verse four Wesley alludes tovarious scenes in the New
Testament where apostles werefreed from prison and likened it
(07:07):
to his own liberation from sin.
Verse four says long, myimprisoned spirit lay fast bound
in sin.
And nature's night, thine eye,diffused a quickening ray.
I woke the dungeon flame withlight.
My chains fell off, my heartwas free, my rose went forth and
(07:28):
followed thee.
We remember the Apostle Peterwhen he was miraculously freed
from prison.
We remember Paul and Silas inthe midnight hour singing and
praising God and the earthquakeopening that prison for them.
And we who have experienced thesalvation of God know what it
(07:48):
means to be freed from thepenalty and the power of sin.
And as we end this hymn, we seethe joyous strains of those who
are in Christ when he says nocondemnation.
Now, I dread Jesus and all inhim is mine, alive in him, my
(08:11):
living head, and clothed inrighteousness.
Divine, bold, I approach theeternal throne and claim the
crown through Christ my own.
Romans eight one tells us thatthere is now, there's therefore
now, no condemnation for thosewho are in Christ.
Jesus and Hebrews four.
(08:31):
Sixteen tells us that we candraw near to the throne of grace
in confidence, seeking andreceiving mercy and grace to
help in time of need.
Indeed, this hymn, which iswritten about the testimony of
the conversion and all that Goddid for this man, in saving him
(08:55):
is the testimony of everyChristian, and as he exclaims in
the chorus, so we should aswell.
Amazing love, how can it bethat thou, my God, should die
for me?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
And our guest contributor for today, dr Scott
Cumberbatch.
My dear friend, thank you foryour yes.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Grateful for the invitation.
Always glad to be a part ofconversation with you, sir.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
And the feeling is mutual.
We've received two or threeemails over the past year
wondering when are you going?
to have Scott on.
When are you going to haveScott on?
And so we're glad to finallyget you here on the podcast and,
well, hold you while we got youto participate in the CRQ.
Ok, now, some of our listenerswill know who you are, but a
good number of them won't, andso let's take a few moments to
(09:51):
enlighten them on who the ScottCumberbatch that we know
actually is.
And, of course, we have ahistory together from the same
community, from the same circleof friends and same circle of
colleagues and ministry.
So why don't you tell ourlisteners when and how it
started for you in music andchoir and in some of the other
areas of the arts that you'vebeen involved in?
Speaker 4 (10:11):
So my days of music go all the way back to my
childhood, and while it mightnot seem that long ago, it was
30 plus years ago, 34 years agoactually.
My mother has been a musicianand minister of music for my
church for over 60 years.
So I sat alongside her andwitnessed what she was doing.
But outside of the church realm, I was an actor, and being a
(10:33):
professional actor took me notonly to the stage as an actor
but also brought me in front ofpeople as a singer, as a
musician, working with largercompanies dealing with music,
specifically on Broadway stages,and even doing voiceovers
musically, specifically theKraft macaroni and cheese, the
blue box blues as we called it.
(10:53):
One of the kids that sang onthat.
I did the Hestra commercialsinging background for three
seasons.
For that I did Burger King.
I sang on that.
So music has always been a partof my life, and so for my
formative years, though, Ididn't do any formal music
lessons much too many peopleshould grant, including my mom.
(11:14):
She put me a lesson for oneyear.
It didn't last because I wasbored out of my mind and I think
the end all be all was megetting to.
This was at the age of threebut me getting to the final
concert and they handed me atriangle to play After she paid
more than $2,000 for me to takepiano lessons.
They put me on the stage toplay a triangle and I was fit to
(11:39):
be tied, so I literally did notwant to do anything else.
When it came to that, I was notknowing what God had planned for
me, not knowing that I wouldsit down at the piano one night
while she was working nightschool at the high school where
she worked where I currentlywork at and sit down to start
playing.
And my grandfather heard me andI didn't know anything
(11:59):
different.
I just sat down and startedplaying and he told her the next
morning like before you go towork, you got to hear this boy
play.
And she's like, yeah, okay.
And she comes out of thebathroom and I'm playing.
Jesus loves me on the piano.
And what happens to still be myfavorite key, f sharp.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
And I'm playing it so funny because that's the same
key I started in Steve.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
And, but it wasn't literally just playing like one
note.
I was actually playing a littlechord here and there.
Um, and See, we talked about it, um, we've talked about it many
times before where it justseemed like this was something
that god had ordained.
And I truly believe that.
I truly believe that he hasordained me to do everything
(12:45):
that I've done, um, fromeducation to um the, the degrees
that I've gotten, to all thepeople that I've been able to
work with, um in music as wellas in acting, as well as in
education Uh, literally, god hasordained all of it to happen
and I take none of it forgranted, um, but I'm thankful
for all of it and I truly try totake all of the experiences
(13:08):
that I've had over these last 38years, um, and put that into
everything that I do every timeI sit in an instrument, every
time I stand in front of a choir, every time I sit at my desk as
an administrator in education,um, even when I was standing in
front of my class teachingEnglish and, yes, I'm in English
I was an English teacher, not amusic teacher.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Well, I was gonna let you say that a lot of people
who hear dr Scott tumberbatchassumed on this podcast that you
taught music.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
That.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
I taught music right, and though you were an English
teacher and still am, you werestill a music teacher and still
are, even though you weren't oneofficially with the School
system.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
Yes, I was an English teacher with a piano in my
classroom.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Well, there you go Always in my classroom.
You weren't an unofficial musicinstructor at uh at the school.
Because even the students knewyou from the community.
They knew of you Uh they heardyou, they, they, they would hear
you in school when I guess youwould play on your break.
You had a piano there, so ithad to be used.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
Exactly, and also was the advisor for the gospel
choir.
There was music going on in myclassroom at all times, I bet.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Let's talk a little bit about the acting.
I saw you in bad boys.
Uh, tell us how that transpired.
Bad boys one and two yeah, so,yeah.
So you had a little role there,uh, and it wasn't musical.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
No, it was, it rolled nonetheless.
Yes, sir, I played uh martinson in both of those martin's
oldest.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Now, when you consider all of these
opportunities the acting, theteaching, the Uh community choir
, the church choir, all of theother things that you've done
though these disciplines areSignificantly different from
each other, how do you see them,having come together and have
taught you lessons that stillcarry with the scott that we
know?
Speaker 4 (14:49):
From beginning to end , um.
I will say that it taught mededication, um, not to just say
I'm gonna do something, but toactually follow through what I'm
going to do.
Um.
It gave me a different level ofprofessionalism in that, um, I
take everything that I doseriously and I truly make sure
that everybody that I work withthey understand that if you ask
(15:11):
me to do something, I'm going todo it to the best of my ability
.
If I can't do it like you wantright now, give me a few minutes
and I'll get it to where itneeds to be.
Um.
It also taught me all of theexperiences taught me
accountability To know thatwhether I'm the person that's
performing or if I'm the personthat's leading, or both at the
same time, I'm always going tobe accountable for my actions.
(15:32):
And if I'm responsible forleading others, I'm going to
make sure that they understandwhat accountability is to.
We can't give 50 percent.
We got to give 100 at all times.
If you're unable to give 100,at least be honorable enough to
step up and say I can't do that,um, and maybe you want to find
someone else.
There's no love lost.
But again, it shows that thereneeds to be accountability, um,
(15:55):
even with dealing with my choirsnow, uh, whether it be the
church choir, my state choir, myhome church choir, the choir
that I just formed and recordedwith, whatever the case is, um,
the first thing that it alwaysstarts with is prayer To
understand that we need to bringour minds and our hearts
together and that we've only gotone mission, and that mission
(16:15):
is to minister to god and to hispeople.
Um, it's his job to speakthrough us, to sing through us
and all that stuff.
We just got to be willing atopen vessels, um, and the
experiences that I had, uh, withbroadway.
I think that really gave me theunderstanding of taking care of
my instrument, um, and not justthe one that I play, but even in
(16:38):
my voice and my uh vocal foldsand all of that Taking care of
them, not over exerting myself,making sure that I understand
what rest is, um, I'm not justgoing to sleep at night, but
actually just resting, nottalking, and not over working.
Um, um, making sure that I'mproperly hydrated, um, so all of
these things help to play amajor role into what I've become
(17:01):
, um, and I still sit backsometimes and think about some
of the things that I learnedthat I don't always implement Um
and say, okay, I need to makethis change, you need to make
that change.
Ever growing and revolving.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah, and we don't ever grow or evolve without the
help of others.
There are people who haveinfluenced you in your
professional career, in youryour music and ministry career.
Tell us a bit about thoseinfluences and influencers.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Well, I laugh about it.
Um, I'll start with the actingthat I go to the music.
So the acting side, that kindof just happened.
Um, that one year that I was inthe music program I was the
yamaha music program.
Um, here in new jerry, inparameters, new jersey.
Um, there was a young man thatwas an actor.
He actually was on the showwho's the boss?
Um, he was adopted later on andif you ever watched the cosby
(17:49):
show Um, his name was jonathanand he had the froggy voice that
dr Cosby only used to make funof Um, he and I went to piano
lessons together and his mothersaid to my mother your kid's got
a great personality, I thinkthat he should really try out
for this.
And my mother's like, yeah,right, of course, the stories
that we all heard were GaryColeman and the different
strokes, kids and all the stuffthey went through and how they
(18:12):
went left and it could have goneright.
And so she was like, yeah, I'mnot gonna do that.
And my godmother was the onethat convinced her to let me do
that.
So when it came to that,literally it was just kind of
like, okay, I auditioned for arole, I saw what they wanted and
just gave them what they askedfor, to the best of my ability.
And 14 and a half years I didcommercials, I did movies, I did
(18:34):
Broadway, I did a couple ofactors, equity workshops, I did,
like I said, the voiceovers.
So it was literally just again,god's hand in all of it,
because I didn't take any formalacting lessons either.
I just I'm that personality.
I guess I tried not to be achameleon, but if I have to be,
I will be.
To a certain extent I'm notgiving up my values to get a
(18:56):
role.
When it came to music, it, likeI said, it starts right at home.
My mother, I sat next to herand was plunking here and there
on the piano and she would hitmy hand don't do that and
teaching me here and there.
And then it went from meplaying one hand to two hands
and then moving over just alittle bit more and she ended up
(19:18):
directing the choir, now notplaying anymore, and I'm playing
for the choir and now she's ina state of fully retired and
doesn't want to play at all.
But she does play for lack of abetter word sporadically she
does play still.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Well, you know, for you to be playing and her to be
directing, that had to be thedynamic duo.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
And then one of the church decided to buy an organ.
Then she was on the piano, Iwas on the organ, so we were
able to do that.
At one point I had my keyboardsat the church.
So, yeah, it was yeah for agood 15 years.
That was prophetic.
That was what we did at thechurch.
And then also I had anotheryoung lady who has now passed
(20:02):
away, but she was the ministerof music at the time of Ebenezer
Baptist in Englewood, margaretGales.
It was because of her that mymusic went a little bit further.
She heard me playing at aservice and was like, yeah, I
need him to come and play forthe church, because she wanted
me to play for the youth choirYouth choirs, because that
(20:24):
church actually had three youthchoirs, different ages and so I
went in with her and she was theone that really forced me into
learning to read music.
When I was in grammar school Itook on the alto saxophone for a
hot spell and of course withthat you had to read music, and
so I was doing a little bit hereand there.
But she came to me, we werepreparing for Easter and she
(20:49):
decided that she was going to do.
Surely he has born our grieffrom the Messiah.
And she said now, I played itfor the last couple of years,
you're playing it this year.
And I was like, no, I'm not.
She said, yes, you are.
I said it, here's the music.
As you walked away and I'm like, oh Lord, I have two months to
prepare.
And, of course, looking foranybody that's never looked at
sheet music before or neverlooked at that kind of sheet
(21:11):
music before, it was like tryingto read trigonometry and I'm
like I don't know what this is.
And then when I flipped thepage, I was like, okay, I just
went from math to Greek, Ireally don't know what this is.
And so it literally little bylittle, little by little, I was
taking it and I learned it, andthen it pushed me into learning
(21:32):
to sight read even more andfocusing on that.
So she was a major influencethere.
Of course, robin Edward Fairleywas another major influence that
both of us share and, again, Idon't really talk about it often
but, greg, even you were amajor influence, because I sat
back and I watched and Ilistened to what you did.
For those of you that havenever heard him play, for those
(21:55):
that are listening to this, hewas Patterson's Richard
Smallwood.
To me, smallwood was always oneof my icons from afar that I
listened to.
Smallwood, hawkins, crouch,james, cleveland, those were
like the four major people.
But when you sat down, greg, ata piano and just played,
(22:15):
literally I heard RichardSmallwood right in front of me
and so I paid attention to that.
I listened to a lot of what youdid.
I listened to what you did withvocals and how you would
arrange different things, someof the writing that you did, and
it became a major part of mythinking in the way that I
started even composing.
Another person is Michael Butlerand, for a little bit, his dad,
(22:40):
pastor William Butler, the latePastor William Butler.
But Mike was the reason that Istarted writing.
He said to me when I startedplaying for the William
Patterson Gospel Choir he waslike there's composition in you.
And I was like, yeah, no, I'man English major and I'll be
okay with that.
I can write lyrics.
I'm not trying to write anymusic, I'll play everybody
else's music, I'm good with that.
(23:01):
He was like, no, there'ssomething else in you.
And he didn't know that he wasspeaking in something into
existence, because literally ayear later I'm sitting in my car
on campus waiting for class tostart and this song just starts
playing in my head and I waslike I gotta write this down.
I grabbed my notebook out of theback of the truck and I'm
(23:21):
writing stuff down.
I was like I gotta get to apractice room and I ran to one
of the practice rooms in Sheaand the very first song, which
is now a GIA published song,frazier the Lord, was the very
first song that I wrote in 2005.
And I played it back for himand he was like, dude, we gotta
sing this, we gotta do it.
And I played it for themusicians and they were like we
gotta do it.
(23:41):
I was like, really, is thatgood?
And they were like, yeah, wegotta do it, we gotta do it.
Praise the Lord.
Praise the Lord.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
And his name is Shea.
Praise the Lord, praise theLord.
And his name is Shea.
Praise the Lord, praise theLord.
And his name is Shea.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, and his name is
Shea.
Praise the Lord, praise theLord and his name is Shea.
And the choir fell in love withit, he fell in love with it,
and so I was just yeah.
And then, when it came to theorgan itself, elder Terrence
(24:40):
Kitchen's has been one of mymajor influences, because the
Hammond is not, it's not for theweek, and so listening to him
and listening to Miyaida's latestepmother, elder Deborah
Burgess, there's so many ElderRay Hageans, there's so many
people that came through thiscity when it came to playing
(25:03):
traditional gospel, professorLloyd Rees, that was the man to
listen to, to get thattraditional sound, to know where
to go, what to do with it.
Yeah, so those were my hands-oninfluences.
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
So we've kind of drawn from the same well in
terms of that pool of people andall of them, you know, and so
many of them I wish were stillhere, because I think this
generation, this generation hasno idea what they're missing by
not having them.
They don't know they don't knowwhat, what a choir is capable
(25:40):
of.
Ricky Burgess is standing infront of them.
Gloria Ose is standing in frontof them.
You know, they just don't, theydon't understand.
And that doesn't mean we don'thave great ones today.
I just think that we are intime and season and this
generation where the emphasis ismore about the individual and
(26:03):
less about the collective, andso the full potential of what a
choir or singing aggregation canbe, is being lost, dorian.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Scott, thank you so much for being with us.
It's interesting because,having worked with Greg, I heard
sort of the same story of ayoung kid sitting down at a
piano and just starting to play.
And then you got, you had thesame, the same story, and I and
(26:36):
I know there are many people outthere that hear that and go oh,
I want to do that.
I just want to sit down andstart playing.
One day you gotta go to church.
Some of them do.
Believe me there's one righthere saying I wish I could just
(26:56):
sit down and start playing.
But I guess my question for youis yes, and I believe God does
give gifts to his people, butwhat has what, then, did you
have to do in terms of workingon that gift that you were given
?
And then I guess my second partof the question is I did have
(27:18):
the opportunity to hear theensemble that you led at the at
the choir anniversary that youhad invited us to.
I have to say it was at sixpeople that were in that
ensemble.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
And Dave.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Yeah, I only had like five or six that day, yeah, and
let me tell you, when theyopened their mouth, I don't have
any hair and my hair flew back.
And so and you, you talkedabout just not feeling as if
that was a place you wanted togo either.
(27:59):
And so can you just talk to usa little bit about how you went
to developing your gift, whetherit was playing piano, whether
it was leading the, leading achoir, and getting the most out
of people, even if they don'tnecessarily think that they have
any more to give?
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat as well?
Speaker 4 (28:18):
Sure, Thank you For playing.
It was literally just just keepdoing it, just keep playing,
and that's all I've ever done.
I'm not that one that sits downat the piano or the organ and
practices four and five hours aday.
I've never been that person.
Not that I'm not dedicated toit, but because of how keen my
(28:39):
ear has always been and then, ofcourse, reading music helped to
develop that even the more Iwas able to just sit down and,
for lack of a better, figure itout and make it make sense, make
the chords what I heard.
I literally played what I heardand even now I still play what
(29:00):
I hear, trying not to take awayfrom what the artistry is, as
well as remembering that I'm theaccompanist to the choir.
I'm not overplaying them.
I'm always going to liveunderneath where the choir is
singing or where the soul was tosinging.
As a director and, uh yeah, achoir director and leader, it
literally came from watchingwhat others have done.
(29:22):
Um, and I'm also a part of um,our national association with,
from which I am the um, theminister of music now for the
national association church ofGod, and I also am a part of the
national commensin of gospelchoirs and choruses.
So being in and Hampton, uh,hampton university ministers
conference at Oregon is skilledas well.
So being in those spaces withothers who were doing the same
(29:43):
thing, um, I literally have justtaken what other people have
done and, as the old adage is,if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
So I've just emulated what I'veseen others do.
Um, with a heart for the people, with a heart for the purpose
of what it is that we do, andmaking sure, again, that it's
all glorifying God.
Um, choirs can be very difficultto deal with because you deal
(30:06):
with multiple personalitiessimultaneously, um, and that's
the church choir, the communitychoir, the ensemble, the quartet
, the tree, whatever.
When there's more than oneperson and more than one
personality, you're always goingto deal with issues.
I do my best to be that personto help to solve the problems.
I like solutions more than Ilike problems created.
Um, because problems createdjust open up the door for more
(30:29):
issues to come down the pipe.
Um, but I started leading all ofmy choirs with the premise of
okay, remember what Lucifer 'sjob was and remember who he
thought he was.
We are not going to be thatgroup of people that says turn
me up and my turn my mic up.
I can't hear myself in the mix,but we are going to be doing
this, as Psalm 133 says.
Behold how good and howpleasant it is for brethren to
(30:51):
do out together in unity.
If we can't be unified, then wecan't do this, because then
it's going to be a horrific mess.
Um, but we all have to be onthe same page, understanding
that we're serving and singingfor the same God, for the same
purpose.
It's not about the awards, it'snot about the accolades, it's
not about the money.
It's not about any of that.
It's about pleasing God.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Yeah, let's lead the church choir for a moment and go
to the college choir, becauseyou've had an opportunity to um,
to work with the college choiras well, uh, college gospel
choir, and I think sometimes wewe are winning more people than
we realize, because not alwaysin a gospel choir at the school
is everybody that's involved inthat choir Maybe necessarily a
(31:34):
Christian.
Some people just love gospelmusic and um, but you're winning
more people sometimes than yourealize.
Very true, Talk to us a littlebit about the difference in
approach from church choir andcollege choir.
Even though they're both gospelchoirs, the approach can
oftentimes, uh, be different.
What was your experience?
Speaker 4 (31:54):
So, working with that choir, working with that choir?
Um, like I said, when I went toWayne Patterson, michael Butler
was the person over the choir,um, and he made me the musical
director.
So I was working with the band.
Um, thankfully, all of themusicians that we were working
with at the time were um churchkids.
Um, in fact, my drummer, hisfather was a pastor, so
(32:15):
literally I got a PK, anotherchurch kid from um that was on
saxophone, from Alabama, thebass player was a church kid
right from Patterson.
So we we had that commonalitywith those that were coming in
to take the class for credit,because it wasn't actual course,
it was a three credit course.
Um, we would often you don't seethat often, no, and believe it
or not, the course wasdiscontinued about 10 years ago.
(32:36):
They're trying to revamp it andbring it back now, um, and so
they're trying to bring both ofus back to work with it.
I'm like, hey, that'll work, um, but with that, one thing that
um Mike did and I was always upfor was, not only did we have
the time of, okay, let's learn,learn, learn, let's learn these
(32:58):
songs, let's get ready forconcerts, but he would do those
midnight sessions and say, okay,we have rehearsal from seven to
nine 40 on Sunday, but nowwe're going to have just a
powwow, we're going to sit andwe're going to talk, um, just to
kind of see where people were,especially for those that were
coming in, just for credit.
You could say, if you wanted to, you didn't have to.
99% of the time people stayedbecause they wanted to know what
(33:20):
was going on, because now itwas more about becoming a family
and a unit than it was justabout getting up and singing
music.
And one thing that he did thatI actually have started to take
the other choir is we did aretreat every year, and that
retreat was funded by the school.
We would go off campus to aspace up in the Poconos for
(33:43):
three or four days, um, learningabout the music, but then again
just having those sessionswhere we could just sit and rap,
those fireside chats, thosemidnight chats, um, with no TVs.
The place that we went to was aresort, um, that had no TVs.
It had all the food we needed,had the beds that we needed, um,
and they took care of us, um,we were able to minister to a
(34:06):
whole lot of people.
I mean, you had people that camein, one young lady who now is
one of my dearest friends, um,she came in and she was like I
came from church but I also camefrom the streets, and coming
from the streets, like she wasready to rap and do all of this
stuff.
She was a vocal major, aclassical vocal major, um, and
since was rough.
Now, I mean, we're talkingabout thanks to the relationship
(34:28):
that relationships that shebuilt through the choir.
We're talking about somebodythat's an ordained minister in
the church.
Her voice is absolutelyphenomenal.
She is a recording artist now.
So it's all of these thingscatapulted from her being
connected to the WilliamPatterson gospel choir.
Um, so, in seeing Mike do that,I took that when I went to arts
(34:48):
and, like I said, I was theadvisor for the gospel choir
there, um, and of course, in theschool setting, thankfully, I
had three principals, um, thatwere all believers and they
pretty much gave me freedom todo what we needed to do, so they
didn't restrict us from oh, youcan't say Jesus.
They were fine, um, and theywould deal with whatever they
whatever backlash came.
Most of the time, nothing thatcame of it anyway, um, but they
(35:12):
knew that there was a familyunit that was being created with
that Um, and I would talk tothe kids like, listen, just
because I'm a gospel choiradvisor, even if you never have
me as a teacher, my door isalways open to you.
Come, sit, talk to me, um.
Who I didn't talk to aboutsuicide?
Who I didn't talk to aboutacademic success?
Who I didn't talk to about, um,even future plans?
(35:34):
Who I didn't talk to about teenpregnancy?
I mean, I had a couple of kidsthat got pregnant while they
were in high school and I saidto them this is not the end,
this doesn't have to be the endfor you.
You can still go and grow andyou can still do more, um.
And to this day, I've been gonefrom arts now for five years,
um.
But some of these kids thatgraduated in 2008 and 2010,.
(35:56):
One of them, um, actually singsin my choir now.
Um, and he worked with me forthree years when I was at Mount
Calvary during the pandemic.
I just happened to call him onenight and said dad, I wish you
were in town because he lived inPhiladelphia.
He was like, well, I happenedto be at what you need.
And that one knee turned intothree years consecutively three
years of him working with meover at Mount Calvary in the
(36:19):
middle of the pandemic.
Um, so I was able to buildthose relationships.
But a lot of them even comeback and say now, had it not
been for coming to gospel choir,they don't know what they would
have done.
Uh, because some of them lostparents while they were in high
school.
Some of them, their parentsdidn't care about them when they
went to high school, after highschool and even still now, um,
some of them came from greathomes, but their parents were
(36:41):
like, well, they in yourpossession, they're under your
control and you take care ofwhat you need to take care of,
um, and I appreciated thatbecause, again.
You don't have that old schoolparenting.
If you go to school and youmess up, the teacher can only
say, but so much to you.
We didn't have that.
Thankfully I didn't have that.
I was like, no, do what youneed to do, um.
And I was like, okay, um, soyeah.
(37:04):
That approach again even helpedme to understand that people
are still people and even thoughthey're in the choir at church,
they might still be dealingwith the same issues.
So now you got to look beyondthe music and look at the people
and see what it is that thepeople need Um, and those
experiences between WilliamPatterson and our time really
helped to cultivate that in meas a leader.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Wonderful.
So we say it often in thispodcast that it is part the
responsibility of the choirdirector or the music director
to ensure that they arecultivating an environment of
community and family amongst thechoir, because that's what
makes a strong, healthy choir achoir that is attractive.
So, beyond the music and beyondthe singing and the recording,
(37:49):
what is it that you want peopleto walk away with after having
worked with you or recorded withyou or served with you?
Speaker 4 (37:56):
With a renewed understanding of what choir is,
um, and an appreciation for thechoir.
Um, that's what we grew up with.
We grew up with hearing choirs.
I mean, from Sunday afternoongoing to choir days to just
visiting people's churches andhearing choirs, be they small or
large.
We just knew choir music and Iwant people to understand that
(38:21):
again.
Going back to that whole ideaof it goes beyond the music.
It's a church, it's a gardenstate they had.
Their theme has always beenit's more than music, it's a
ministry.
And we can do so much more ifwe come together collectively,
understanding that it is aministry.
Whether in the secular realm orin the church, it's still a
ministry because people stillhave needs that we can minister
(38:45):
to, no matter what, and youreally don't get to see those
needs until you connect heart toheart.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Yeah, and that's a real thing and I couldn't agree
more.
In the background you'relistening to Be Still and Know
by Dr Scott Cumberbatch and thechoir, and you can find that
music and all of the otherprojects of his hymns from the
heart, one in two, availableanywhere.
You find good music, scott,thanks again for joining us
tonight and allowing us to peekinto your ministry and into your
(39:14):
musical life.
And, as I said earlier, becausewe have you now, we're going to
hold you over for the CRQ andhave you input on that as well.
Sounds good, and that has ourCRQ for the day.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Thanks so much, greg.
Once again, this is the firstCRQ of the year, of the new year
, and so our CRQ this evening isthis looking for gospel choir
music any suggestions on whereto find it?
Now, we know this is the choirroom.
Looking for gospel gospel musicany suggestions?
(39:44):
Good gospel music, anysuggestions on where to find it?
Something that I had expressedto Greg a few days ago, that is,
this question, came aboutduring a conversation that I was
having with a fellow colleaguein music ministry and we were
just talking about music andwhat's out today versus what
(40:09):
we've listened to growing up,and so and I begin to say to
them that listen, I have startedlistening to choir music again,
and I can thank Greg Thomas forthat, because, because of this
choir room podcast, I had to goback and start listening again,
because, I have to say, behonest about it, I had stopped.
(40:32):
Now I'm a gospel music singer,right Right, but I had stopped
listening to a lot of the gospelthat we hear, and so if I
should put it on at all, if Ishould turn it on at all, it was
usually something from 1980,something and down, you know.
(40:53):
So that's pretty much where Istayed.
That was the vein in which I,every morning I was getting up.
There was one song inparticular that that would play
in my house once a day, and thiswas going on for this almost a
year now, and that's full andcomplete by Walter.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Is that what?
I'm not sure.
If it was, walter.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Walter Hawkins.
Yeah, we'll get the rightbrother right, walter Hawkins.
And that plays once a day everyweek.
So when they, when you start totalk to me about good choir
choir music, I immediately goback 2025 years.
That's my first stop.
Unfortunately, there has thereno, I won't say unfortunately,
(41:31):
but fortunately there has beenquite a bit of music from that
time to this.
So I'm kind of feeling likeColeman in this, a little bit
Greg with context.
Now, because this question didnot specify what age group these
choirs might be in the churches.
I know Dorian is like why dothey have so many choirs?
Speaker 3 (41:54):
I get it.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
I get it, you get it, okay.
Oh, we have so many.
Speaker 3 (42:01):
I don't get it either I understand, I don't get it.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Yeah, I mean we had quite a few.
So when I was listening andjust kind of going over this
question, I guess it depends onwhat the house needs.
I don't think that you shouldalways pull from the top 40 for
certain congregations.
Certain congregations, theyjust it doesn't.
(42:29):
It doesn't fit.
Not all of the stuff that welisten to every day, our regular
listening to, we could theirgood listening songs, but not
necessarily the best fit for thechurch choir, which you know
that happens with all of us.
We have our favorites, we haveour favorite songs that we love
to listen to, but we know, as achoir director, this might not,
(42:51):
it might land flat in thecongregation in which we serve
in.
You have to be very careful inpicking and choosing.
I said this once before.
My father was notorious for, youknow, at the time we had LPs,
the records.
You know you had the side a andside B and you know the hot
song was usually on side a,right, but the jewels, the gyms,
(43:15):
were on the B side.
That right Nobody was singing.
But and I have to say, by theway, because that was my biggest
musical influence, a lot of thesongs that Bible way saying
back in that time came from theB side of the record and people
were trying to figure outwhere'd you get that, where'd
you find that?
How are y'all singing it?
(43:36):
And nobody else is singing it.
Well, if you turn the recordover, you turn it over, there it
is, and it like we would neverhave thought to do that.
See, you see, you see whathappens.
So you know, don't just assumethat Just because they're
playing it on the radio thatthis is going to be the best fit
for the church.
So that's why this, thisquestion, I'm going to toss it
(43:59):
to you, wise gentlemen, you allwise gentlemen.
So, gentlemen, what?
Speaker 4 (44:07):
say you want to tap into that.
So there's a few parts that Iwant to happen to you.
So you talk about going back tothat era and I know that word
was used on you earlier this Acertain era that you represent.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
But I'm still trying to recover.
Speaker 4 (44:25):
But even in thinking about that, that era of music
from the 60s to the early 90s,when you talk about going from
Andre Crouch to the HawkinsBrothers to Smallwood, to Thomas
Whitfield, to the Tommy's, tothere's so many institutional
(44:46):
over in New York to the Bibleway recording choir, there's so
many choirs that, of course,james Cleveland with GMWA they
recorded every year.
So every year there was aconference, there was a new
recording coming out and I thinkI'm like your late dad, I was
always, I'm always that personthat finds the jewels on the
project and it may notnecessarily be the song that you
(45:08):
hear on the radio, but it'sjust that song that stands out
because there's something aboutthe lyrics that stand out or
there's something about thelyrics and the way the lyrics
are married to the melody thatstands out.
That I feel like will fit.
But yes, I definitely agree onpicking stuff that fits the
house.
In serving in the last churchwhere I was for eight years, my
(45:28):
assistant minister of music wasone who liked to follow the top
40 and I said, well, define whatthe top 40 is.
And then, like six months later, I said well, define what the
top 40 is and the definitionchange.
I said, and this is the problem, are we looking at what's being
played on the radio?
Are we looking at what's goingto minister to the people?
(45:49):
The church where we were had alarge conglomeration of
traditional, loving people.
So for us to go and pull outthe latest Ricky Dillard song
might not necessarily be thebest thing.
Even though I had a few voicesthat could do it, I knew all of
my voices couldn't do it becauseI had seasoned saints that were
(46:10):
beyond, like into theirseventies and some older than
that.
I didn't want to push them, butif I gave them something like
going reaching back to 84 to allin his hand, that minister to
them or reaching back to DouglasMiller would pass me, not that
minister to them, and you wouldsee the folks jumping up or even
going into the nineties withorder my steps.
The folks are jumping up inthis scene.
(46:31):
Or the singing.
There is no way million choirshave re recorded that song but
that song goes back to theeighties with the Tommy's like.
That song is almost as old as Iam, literally all the goals I
am.
So again you got to know whatfits and I think a lot of the
artists now, a lot of therecording artists now have
figured out that in theirtemplate they've got to add one
(46:53):
song that's already beenrecorded somewhere because they
know that's going to grab thepeople.
So you want to keep introducingnew stuff on your project but
you got to get that one classic.
If you go back and grab thatone classic and that's something
that somebody pointed out to meabout us with our recording
Like we did a lot of old stuff,a lot of new stuff, a lot of new
stuff, a lot of new stuff.
(47:14):
But I went back and I pulled outstretch out from institutional
and I pulled Dr Margaret DeRose,give me a clean heart.
The moment that I said we'regoing to sing just a few minutes
of the old classic song writtenby Dr Margaret Pleasant DeRose
that just says give me a cleanheart.
The church was ready to go up.
Then I'm like we didn't evensee anything yet, but again it
(47:37):
ministered and this was thesewere people of all ages.
So, like you said before me,like somebody prayed for me.
You got to think about that.
Somebody did pray for us,because if they hadn't prayed
for us, where would we have been?
Well, some of the stuff andsome of the people that we hung
out with, some of the people wewent to school with.
It could have been anything.
I mean just getting behind thewheel of a car and driving
(47:57):
somewhere.
Thank God somebody prayed forus because we got behind that
wheel, driving that all kind ofcrazy speed and anything could
have happened, but we made ithome safely, we made it to our
destination safely becausesomebody was praying for us.
And so I always warned all choirdirectors, all ministers of
music, musicians when you'rechoosing songs, make sure that
(48:20):
they are gospel and not justinspirational, because the
gospel is never going to fadeaway.
The Bible tells you that theflower fades, but the word of
the Lord, with whatever standson, as long as you're singing
Bible, it's never going to goout of style.
And you can be that innovativeperson and take it and update it
(48:40):
, if you want to, just a littlebit.
Of course, don't steal awayfrom what the composer gave, but
maybe just add a little twisthere and there if you want to
just update it to make it sounda little bit more contemporary.
But that's always my suggestionJust make sure that you're
paying attention to the lyricsand make sure that you're paying
attention to the house.
Speaker 3 (48:58):
I was going to say.
I mean, there are plenty ofplaces you can look, but I'm
going to go back to somethingScott said.
I mean we have to get back towhere we're evaluating the songs
that we're singing andcomparing them to the word of
God, because we are in a timewhere people are trying to
(49:20):
redefine truth and say whattruth is, but we know that the
Bible is the only truth, theultimate truth, and so if we are
going to have any kind oflasting ministry, it has to be
(49:40):
founded on, based on, rooted in,grounded in the word of God.
And so, as you're evaluatingsongs to sing, my advice would
be where can you find, thoughnot necessarily even those words
, but those principles, thatconcept, all of those things?
Where can you find that?
In the Bible, because that's,ultimately, it's the word of God
(50:05):
that impacts people's hearts,it's the word of God that
changes people, that convictspeople, that conforms them to
the image of Christ.
And so that would be my advicefor folks as they're thinking
about music music to sing.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Yeah, I think the mere mention of you know,
because the question was wherecan we find good gospel music
for choir?
The mere mention of gospelconnotes that this is probably a
church choir or somebody askingon behalf of a church choir.
But to our previousconversation with God with
(50:44):
regards to the college choir, Idon't want to assume that the
person asking the question isnot a college choir gospel choir
person looking for music fortheir gospel choir in their
school.
Now I want to point outsomething, because that Scott
was speaking about hisinfluences, but it triggered
(51:06):
something in me and I had towalk away and and pick up
something.
Now our listeners can't seethis, but you guys can see this.
Take a look at this.
I'm going to do something here.
You can't just go out and dothis anymore.
You can't find that right there.
Speaker 4 (51:25):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 2 (51:26):
You see, what that is .
Speaker 4 (51:27):
Yes, sir, church of love, that's that's professor.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Now, that's the B side.
Notice what's highlighted onthe B side the one song that
everybody, at least in the localchurch community, Lord.
I'm running was Lord.
I'm running Trying to make ahundred.
Yes, sir, right, 99 and a half.
That was the staple, and I justhappened to have this over here
(51:55):
.
I've got hundreds of them, wow.
This one on the top because Iwas trying a new LP a few weeks
ago, but it didn't stop there.
This is the LP from the firstrecording that I ever attended.
Now, for our audience again,I'm holding up for them to see
LPs.
These are albums, vinyl LPs,long play.
(52:16):
Now, this was the firstrecording, live recording, that
I had ever attended, and thiswas my choir director at the
time.
Yep, william.
Keeble Hardy Gilmore MemorialTabernacle one of the finest
choirs in the area and, believeit or not, that's available now
on Apple Music because I have it.
Speaker 4 (52:32):
Well, I got the LP and the sleeve.
I do too.
It's right, it's right overhere.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Well, this is how we used to find new music for choir
.
You heard a song on the radio,or two.
If you're lucky, you heard twofrom one project, but usually it
was just one that the label waspushing or the industry was
pushing, and you had to buy theentire album.
You couldn't, you couldn'tselect the track yet to buy the
whole thing.
Now, obviously, today, that's alot different and a lot easier.
(53:01):
You can buy single tracks ifyou hear a song that you like.
There's a lot more access, butthere's also a lot more music,
and so, between Apple Music andSpotify, amazon Music and all of
the other services out there inaddition to YouTube, you're
going to have to spend some timefinding music that fits your
group, and so you almost have toknow what kind of music you're
(53:25):
looking for, and I don't mean interms of genre.
If you're looking for gospelmusic, as this writer stated,
then you have to almost knowwhat, what style of gospel music
you're looking for, and thenyou have to go into this
exhaustive search.
You can take the top 40approach and listen to what's
what's you know, most populartoday, or, if you want to do the
(53:47):
B side, and we.
We talk about the B side,that's the stuff that's a little
less popular, which I love,because I realized that there's
a lot more jewels on the B sideof a project, or or the songs
that the industry is not pushing.
That are great songs.
And so if you want your choirto be a trendsetter and not just
a trend follower, where yourchoir is sounding like every
(54:09):
other choir, I suggest you do asearch for gospel choir music
and then, when you start to seethe top 40, the more popular
artists, I suggest you skipthose and start to explore more
independent artists, becauseyou're going to find music that
may not be mainstream in termsof the industry, but certainly
music that is hitting the mark.
It's got the gospel message,it's got the vibe and it can be
(54:32):
executed well by your choir, myLord.
And then there's that Now,whether you get music from
online or whether you get itfrom attending a conference,
which is another place where youcan always find new material,
great material go to some of thegospel music conferences Scott
mentioned a few of them earlierand if you can't get to some of
the national conventions orconferences, then look for some
(54:53):
of the workshops and seminarsthat are happening in your area,
but there is a lot of music outthere that is not being heard
on radio and because we areinundated with so much music
today online, you're going tohave to do some searching.
But be specific on what you'relooking for, and I think that
will cut down on the time youspend looking for new music.
(55:14):
Now, we've all said it heretoday and we say it often in
this podcast.
Dorian, hit on it If you'relooking for gospel music for
your choir, then you have tomake sure that it has the gospel
in it.
I like to say it this way Makesure that your song is laced and
lined with the gospel of truth.
Thanks again, dorian and Mietta, and, of course, to our guest
contributor, scott Cumberbatch.
(55:35):
And remember, friends, if everwe put the messenger before the
message, we have failed topresent an unblemished gospel.
I'm Greg Thomas.
Join us again next week righthere in the choir room.
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