Renowned Modern Hymn Writer Keith Getty Expounds on The Power of Choir and Communal Singing: The Choir Director and Church Practices, Insights On The Importance of Innovative Hymn Writing, Q&A From Our Audience, and More.

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the choir room.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Season 1, episode 28 of the Choir Room Podcast.
I'm Greg Tomas, your host, andI'll soon be joined by my
co-host, dorian Johnson.
Welcome to the choir room, beit a stance of farar, and whom
we like to call the fourth wheel, coleman Smart.

(00:23):
This podcast is a production ofMetro Music and Arts, whose
purpose is to perpetuate andpromote the Christian and
positive idea through the mediumof music and other arts, and
this podcast exists to promoteand encourage to long-time
traditions in our society thatseem to be dwindling away, and
that is choir and corporatesinging, and we hope to revive

(00:45):
the excitement and joyexperience with singing in a
choir and corporate singing, aswell as inform and educate the
listener on all things singingand all things choir.
We've had such an interestingand quite incredible response to
the last three episodes of thepodcast.
In episode 25,double-ward-winning recording

(01:06):
artist LaRue Howard was with us,and then episodes 26 and 27, dr
Katherine Hall and vocal coachTara Simon both joined us again,
reminding us of the importanceof proper hydration and the
effect that it has on theoverall body and, of course,
your ability to sing.
The response to those lastthree episodes told us a lot

(01:26):
about our audience and whatyou're looking for, and so we're
going to be catering more ofthe future podcast to talks just
like those.
I do call your attention toepisode 25 with LaRue Howard,
and it's there in that episodethat you'll get some tips that
you didn't get in episode 26 and27.
In each of those episodes ourguests bring their individual

(01:48):
knowledge, skill and experience,and you're sure to learn
something from each of them.
So if you're behind onlistening to the podcast, make
sure that you go check outepisodes 25, 26, and 27 in
particular and, of course, allepisodes are available wherever
you listen to podcasts.
If you haven't subscribedalready, make sure you do that
wherever you get your podcastsand give us a five-star review

(02:09):
and tell us how this content isof value to you, and then, of
course, share it with a friend.
If you'd like to stay informedabout upcoming events through
the Choir Room, you can sendsubscribe to the Choir Room at
metromusic-artscom.
Our guest contributor todayoccupies a unique space in the
world of music.
He and his wife are DeanPreeminent modern hymn writers,

(02:33):
and today they've created acatalog of songs teaching
Christian doctrine and crossingthe genres of traditional,
classical, folk and contemporarycompositions, which are sung
the world over.
According to CCLI, it isestimated that 40 to 50 million
people sing at least one oftheir songs in church services
each year.
Don't go away.

(02:54):
If my dear friend Keith Gettyis with us here in the Choir
Room Before we get into it,dorian is going to come with our
hymn of the week.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
Thanks, Greg, this week's hymn of the week is A
Mighty Fortress Is Our God.
Psalm 46, verses 1 through 3,say God is our refuge and
strength, a very present helpand trouble.
Therefore, we will not fear,though the earth gives way,
though the mountains, be movedinto the heart of the sea,

(03:24):
though its mountains roar andfoam, though the mountains
tremble at its swelling.
This hymn was written by MartinLuther in 1529, man who, 12
years earlier, on October 31,nailed a document of 95 theses
on the door of the Castle Churchin Wittenberg, germany.

(03:44):
These 95 theses, he sharplycriticized the Roman Catholic
Church's uses of indulgences orgood works for penance, and his
act is widely seen as thebeginning of the Protestant
Reformation, which set forth thebiblical truth that salvation
was by grace alone, by faithalone in Christ alone.
His stand for truth ultimatelyled him to be excommunicated

(04:08):
from the Roman Catholic Churchand then to be a condemned and
wanted man.
And while it isn't certain, itseems that this hymn was written
from Luther's experience ofrunning from his enemies.
And just as Luther experiencedthese trials and difficulties,
every Christian experiencestrials and difficulties.

(04:28):
And even more, every day, theChristian fights against three
enemies the world, flesh and thedevil.
All are too great to overcomein their own strength.
But in the face of suchopposition, this hymn declares
God's constant presence as arefuge for his people, declares

(04:49):
the great opposition that theChristian faces and declares the
confidence that the Christianshould have in God.
And so, as this hymn issometimes referred to as the
battle hymn of the Reformation,its truths still stand today,
because the truths are based inthe Word of God.
And as we look to Psalm 46,which began proclaiming God's

(05:12):
imminent, stirring times oftrouble, may our refrain and our
confidence be verse 11 of Psalm46, the Lord of hosts is with
us.
The God of Jacob is ourfortress.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
You know, guys, I know we discussed in the
previous CRQ and discussed alittle bit during this break,
the waning or the lack ofinterest, as it seems, in this
particular generation, inquireor corporate singing.
Now I don't know that.
I fully agree with the ideathat there are less people in
corporate gatherings singingtoday.

(05:53):
In fact, with the advent of theinternet we're seeing a whole
lot more of it, especially withthis young generation.
However, I'm not seeing as muchinterest inquire as there used
to be, and I wonder if that'snot also contributing to the
fact that we don't have great orwe're not getting as much great
choir music as we used to get,and certainly not new or

(06:14):
innovative, with a lot of newmusic, but certainly not
specifically for choir.

Speaker 4 (06:18):
We're not hearing that today.
It's funny.
You should say that.
It's funny you should say Ilearned from my dad.
My dad was a choir director allof my life until he died.
He was a choir director and weused to talk about the music
that he chose.
Often, Oftentimes, he neverchose the music that was most

(06:39):
popular.
Never did, he just just did andI adopted that same.
I don't know if that's a goodthing or a bad thing At the time
and I'm probably dating myself.
Thank you, Coleman.
Now I have to face my mortalityfor years.

Speaker 5 (06:53):
Why did you say thank you, Coleman?
This conversation wasn't beingrecorded.
I'm sorry.

Speaker 4 (06:59):
Thank you, Dorian.
He just bought my mortality.
Dorian.
He's like.
But there was a time where wegot our music from 33's albums,
right.
So before the CD era, and youhad a side A, side B, and my
father would always choose sideB to start, and I would know why

(07:20):
would just nobody knows thesesongs.
He said not yet, not yet.
And he had become so.
He was genius with that.
Because what ended up happeningwas people were coming to the
church and hearing this musicthat they really have, that now
they've heard what was playingon the radio, and then they were
trying to figure out wait aminute, is this the same choir?

(07:42):
Yes, the same choir.
Flip the album over.
There are some gems on side Band we had to be forced to I
guess you say forced we had tobe forced to sit and listen to
music that we've never heard,because we were so listening,
used to listening to what wasbeing played on the airway, and

(08:02):
he brought us into a wholedifferent mindset.
And what ended up happening?
We kind of forgot about the top40 and really enjoyed the meat
of what was happening on side B.
And if he had not, I believe ifhe had not taught us how to do
that, I think we would havegotten stuck, would have gotten

(08:24):
stuck in a particular place, andI don't know how effective it
would have been down the road.
So yeah, I totally agree.

Speaker 2 (08:32):
I love that.
That's so true.
Nobody would be singing thejust shall live by faith because
it was on side B, side B.
There you have it.
You would sing it yeah.

Speaker 4 (08:45):
And it's become now one of my faves.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
So we have to consider the fact then that you
know, today we have access tomore music than we've ever had
in the history of the world, andwe're not listening to side A
or side B anymore.
Now.
There are pros and cons withthat More pros for the consumer,
more cons for the writersthat's a whole other discussion.
But we're listening to one songand then we're getting another

(09:09):
song in our playlist from acompletely different artist, and
so you're not getting the fullcollection of music from that
choir or that artist all at thesame time as we used to.
There's a lot more music, a lotmore distractions, a lot more
copycats.
Yes, well, I could go on.
Well, back to the original CRQwhat qualifies one to be a choir

(09:33):
director?
And I think there's someoffshoots from that question and
from the answers.

Speaker 4 (09:39):
It's something that I grew up in, a church that had
an abundance of gifts, anabundance of talents, and so I
believe I was spoiled.
I think I was spoiled a littlebit with that because I just
thought that everywhere I wentfunctioned like where I came

(10:05):
from, right.
So when I was able to get outof the box a little bit and see
how the other half lives or howother people live, I had the
biggest culture shock and so andI had to develop my ear because
I'm much like Dorian I don'tplay anything, I play absolutely

(10:27):
nothing Right.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
So I had to play a good.

Speaker 4 (10:30):
Tamarind, though.
Well, you know.

Speaker 8 (10:35):
You play something.

Speaker 4 (10:39):
I played.
I played drum only for my ownusage.
You would definitely not gooutside the house and do that,
but I don't.
You know I don't play.
So I had to my ears where areeverything to me?
If my ears, I'm just going togo home and go to bed, I'm done.
But when I got out of that boxand went into other places,

(11:02):
other spaces that did not haveall of those beautiful comforts,
creature comforts I had tolearn.
I had to learn to do thingsdifferently Because I wasn't out
of musician, I was just a choirdirector.
So I had to really really spendsome time and and and assess my

(11:23):
situation and do things a wholelot differently than I was
doing them.
At the church that I came for,I read something the other day
that really kind of blew my mindand it's been on my brain for a
few days now and it's.
It read pastors need to stopgetting musicians when all they
really need is a choir director.
You know all they really needis a choir director.

(11:48):
But and that's a context matteras well- it is because you know
there were churches in our city,greg, and you knew there were
churches in our city who the,the, the musician was the choir
director to Uh huh Yep, I didn'tknow that that was a thing
until I went and it was, and Ifound that to be the case in
most of the Baptist churchesbecause I didn't grow up in a

(12:11):
Baptist church.
So we had everything.
We had to choir, we had thechoir director, we had the
musicians, we had everybody hadtheir place.
So when I went over to myfriends Baptist churches I
realized that, oh so themusician is everything, like he
was she, he's the choir director.
That's like, oh, my goodness,this is, this is how the other

(12:31):
half live.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
I didn't know that was a you know, as a musician
I've had the opportunity overthe years to to you know, being
a lot of those circles and allof those circles Baptist church,
pentecostal church, apostolicholiness, presbyterian,
methodist, you name it and andone of the things I noticed that
was a significant difference.
Aside from the doctrinaldifferences, which weren't major

(12:54):
differences, there wereoperational differences.
In the Baptist church, inparticular, the choir director
was often the musician or themusician was often also the
choir director, so he or she, heor she, would sit there and
play, but they were also paidpositions and if the church
couldn't afford to pay them interms of salary, there would be

(13:16):
a token, you know, a token ofour appreciation, appreciation
to the musician each week.
And in the Baptist church, muchlike the Presbyterian or the
Catholic or the Methodist, therewas an order of service each
week that was pretty standard,which included responsive
readings, it includedcongregational hymns, the

(13:38):
sermonic selection, it includedan offer to a song and then, as
the church grew and became alittle more modern than we had,
welcome songs and you know, youhad the special offering song,
and then I won't go any furtherbecause then we get into too
much, too much of the extrastuff where the Pentecostal, the

(13:59):
apostolic or the morecharismatic churches were a
little more freestyle and sothere wasn't as much
congregational singing but moresinging to the people and then,
of course, leading the people,and so that led to the door
opening to more instrumentationguitars, drums, bass, etc in the
Pentecostal and apostolicchurches that you wouldn't hear

(14:22):
in the traditional Baptistchurch.
I mean, there were scrubboardsand hangers in the Pentecostal
church, you know and you didn'thave to get into my Appalachian
roots.
Come on we had spoons.

Speaker 5 (14:34):
We had the washboard.

Speaker 4 (14:36):
Exactly oh the arm percussion session.
Just just had it all yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:44):
And see much of that was unheard of in the
traditional Baptist church,methodist Presbyterian church.
There were considered morequote unquote high church, some
would say more dignified.
But it was in these circles andin these situations where the
musicians then began to get paidbecause churches were bringing
in more skillful or highlytrained musicians to cover their

(15:05):
services.
Now this is a topic for anotherdiscussion.

Speaker 5 (15:09):
And even if they didn't have a choir, they would
have a lot of time.
Like you said, the organistwould do it or there would be
one person that would stand atthe lectern and guide you
through the song.
It didn't require as manyparticipants as other styles did
.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
Right, it was more congregational.

Speaker 5 (15:31):
What might be cool is if we asked our listeners if
you guys have any experiencewith this or your context
informs this question or thisconversation, and maybe they can
send us, send us a little infoabout their background and their
upbringing and that kind ofthing.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
I love it Well to our listeners.
That's your call to action.
If you are a choir member,choir director, involved in
music ministry at your church,perhaps we'd love for you to
engage in the conversation.
We'll get it going on ourFacebook page and in our
Facebook group.
And don't forget that you cansend your emails to the choir
room at metro music dash artsdot com.
Send us your thoughts and yourcomments with regards to new

(16:14):
music or the lack thereof inchoir music today.
Is your choir director alsoyour primary musician?
And then let's take theconversation a little further.
Do you feel like this churchgeneration is less interested
and therefore less involved withchoir music and congregational
singing?
We'd love to hear from you.

Speaker 1 (16:44):
Thank you.
The depths of peace when fear'sa step, when striving sees my

(17:10):
comfort of my all in all here,in the love of Christ.

Speaker 2 (17:19):
That's the voice of Kristen Getty, the wife of Keith
Getty, one of the co-writers ofthis phenomenal modern day hymn
.
Along with Stuart Townan, thissong holds the number one
position for most frequentlysung in UK churches for nine
consecutive years, and it hasmade its rounds right here in
America as well Many churches Infact.

(17:39):
It's estimated that 40 to 50million people sing in Christ
alone in churches each yearthroughout the USA, canada,
australia, throughout the UK andmany countries in Europe, and
it has gained great popularitythroughout Asia.
He's a husband, a father, acomposer, an accomplished
musician, choir director and asamos in his own right.

(18:01):
Would you welcome to the choirroom a dear friend, keith Getty.
Keith, so glad to have you withus.
Buddy, I typically don't liketo get into the preliminary
stuff with regards to where youstarted, how you started, but I
think it's significant for ourlisteners to understand the
background.
So would you tell us whereKeith started with this whole

(18:23):
music journey?

Speaker 7 (18:25):
Well it's.
You know, I think our part isless than most people would
think.
We began, we're both fromIreland and we wanted to write
hymns.
And in the year 2000, I cameoff the road from having been
involved for the previous threeyears in a number of theatre
tours and I decided to get intomy office and write what I

(18:48):
called my, my kind of it was.
I called it my, I think I calledit my hymn, rebel songs and
that I was fed up with all thatwas being sung in church being
so shallow and being music thatreally didn't have a substantive
, you know time.
It was either substantivetheologically nor artistically,
and I think the Bible wants usto be both of those things.
It wants us to be rich in thescriptures, but the scriptures

(19:10):
want it to be good, they want itand they want it to be music
that lasts.
And also just knowingpastorally how you and I have
benefited from singing greathymns our whole lives, how the
testimony of amazing grace orthe reverence of Holy, holy,
holy and all these things sopunctuate, you know our own
personal lives and our familylives and our church lives.
And so, in the kindness of theLord, and that's the only way I

(19:33):
can say it.
The first hymn that wasreleased was in Christ alone and
and that of course you know,and you know I can say it.
I can say it was the kindnessof the Lord and it's not fake
humility, because I've beendoing this for 23 years since
and I've never repeated that.
You know that song.
I think it's one of the mostyou know, one of the most
licensed.
You know.
Sure, you know songs in thehistory of him copy right now,

(19:57):
and but it was just the Lord andhis kindness.
I wanted to write a hymn whichwent through the whole Christian
story.
I said it should sound like thenational anthem of Christianity
, which of course, is a stupidthing to say, but that's what we
wanted it to be.
And then, and Stuart and Tonyand I wrote it and and that kind
of opened the doors ofopportunity.
So we kept writing.
I married the love of my life in2004.

(20:18):
And we went and lived inSwitzerland for a year and did a
tour of America and pretty muchless than a year into our
marriage, we said you know whatthis is.
What we're going to do the restof our lives is write and
publish and champion a greatdeep hymns for the church, not
that the church had only singhymns, but that we do need
something substantive.
Sure, we do need to be safe.

(20:39):
You know, at the core of whatare, what are we as individuals,
and our families are childrenthat we take care of.
Our churches need to have acore of substantial songs, and
they can be 50% of it, they canbe 80% of it, they can be 30% of
it, but we need.
We need those things, and theresponsibility is both to
champion great hymns but alsothen also to to try and write

(21:00):
and publish a new generation.
So for a number of years wewrote and over time we now have
a hymn publishing company aswell, with 14 extraordinary
writers that have that havecontributed some of the finest
modern hymns to the globalchurch today.
So that, and then throughoutthe organization, we've got
we've the so course, the singconference, which is the global
gathering every year.
We've got a tour with that lastyear.

(21:21):
We've got a touring companywhich we've partnered with Times
Square over the years, bothwhere they hosted the hymn
concerts, yes and also wherethey've participated in the
Christmas tour, which is the twotours we're now involved in a
hymnal and we also.
What we do is there's apercentage.
We created a legal documentthat a percentage of all the
intellectual property every 90days gets signed over to a thing

(21:44):
called the foundation or themusic foundations, the family
foundation, and that is going totry and encourage and support
young hymn writers in otherlanguages outside of English.
That's awesome.
So that's kind of the summaryof it.
We talk about the 2050 goal.
I don't know whether I'll be 75if I get to 2050, but the goal
is that our grandchildren willhave deep thoughts about the

(22:06):
Lord.
You know they will sing deeplyabout the Lord, they'll know his
word deeply and their familiesand their churches will be
joined together, and also thatthere will be creative, artistic
people.
Christianity should not beknown for what it's against.
It should not be known forboring people.
It should not be known forgarbage music and, frankly, all
the time it is and it deservesto be.

(22:27):
It's not the world beingprejudice against them, it's
just people making sadobservations that are too often
true and we need to do betterthan that.
It's not good enough.
So that's a summary, if thathelps.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
That's beautiful, and I see that your kids are
becoming just what you've spokenjust now, so I'm seeing some
wonderful things happen.

Speaker 7 (22:48):
Well, I just told it, we have your breakfast this
morning, so I'm not sure Itotally agree, but you know
that's I might beg to differ.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
Well, speaking of in Christ alone.
I can remember the first timewe did it in New York, and it
was without plan.
In fact none of the musicians,including myself, knew it.
One of the worship leadersstarted singing it and it was,
the moment was right, and so wejust followed suit by ear and
it's amazing that we got thechords so close to what they
actually are.

(23:19):
But I remember that song justprogressively going, verse by
verse and climaxing to a placewhere the place just erupted.

Speaker 7 (23:27):
And it's pentatonic, it's pentatonic.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
It's so pentatonic yeah.

Speaker 9 (23:32):
But it's basically a spiritual.
I'm going to tell all my blackgospel friends to say guys, it's
a spiritual.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
Well, needless to say , the song didn't remain the
same when we started playing it.
Obviously it took on a New Yorkvibe.
We New Yorker fight it.
And so now you got all of thesealternate chords and
suspensions etc.
But the song so moves youthrough the gospel message and
though it may seem somewhatsimplistic in its chord
structure, it's beautifullywritten, and I think we lack a

(23:59):
lot of that music today whereit's more musically brilliant
and theologically weak.

Speaker 7 (24:04):
I think it has to be both.
I think theological signagewith horrible melodies is
horrible.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
I couldn't agree more Really honest, but
theologically sound.
First, because I think we haveso much musical brilliance today
and I don't mind saying it, butparticularly in gospel music
there's more musical brilliancethan there is content a lot of
the time, which is why I'm a bigproponent of making sure that
the message is there first andthat we can beautify it
musically later.

(24:30):
I agree with you.
But I do want to point out thefact that more choirs are
beginning to do their version ofin Christ alone as well.
Now let's shift just a littlebit, because I've had the
privilege of attending the SingConference over the years.
Tell our audience a bit aboutthe Sing Conference.

Speaker 7 (24:47):
You were interviewed in one, we did one, we did one
and we did an interview on themain stage on four I think was
it four perspectives and choralsinging.
Yes.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
It was three or four of us, it was three or three.

Speaker 7 (24:57):
It was three different, three or four
different characters A classicalcomposer working in the
mainstream, and it was a Baptistchoral director who had managed
to get his choirs to China, theMiddle East and North Korea to
sing the gospel Amazing.
And then it was all the thingsthat you guys had done at Times
Square in New York.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
City.
It was a great.

Speaker 7 (25:14):
I remember that was a neat interview, wasn't it?
It was a great time.
It was the power of choirs.
Yes, you know what I mean.
One guy, purely classical, in acommunity right now that's very
, very anti-Christian.
One of them taking the localchoir thing and saying, actually
, the choir should be the mostmissionable part of our churches
.
Yes, we should not be the mostnarcissistic, kind of obnoxious,

(25:35):
egotistical part of the church.
We should be the mostmissionable part of the church.
And just a guy who just hadthis crazy vision for let's
bring our choirs to North Korea,and I don't know how he did.
I still don't know to this dayhow he got his choirs into North
Korea.

Speaker 4 (25:48):
But he did, he pulled it off.

Speaker 7 (25:50):
He found an angle, you know, yeah, and then just
the ministry that you guys havebeen involved in for so many
years in that church.
Growing up in Northern Ireland,one of my goals in life was to
go to America and visit TimesSquare Church.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
Well, we got you there a couple times.

Speaker 7 (26:07):
That was a special, that was a bucket list thing for
me to get to visit yourwonderful church.

Speaker 2 (26:11):
Well, I'm glad to hear that, and we became the
better for it.
Hi everyone.

Speaker 9 (26:19):
We're inviting you to sing an Irish Christmas.
This Christmas it's goingthroughout the nation as an
evening of music and dance andsinging the great carols of the
Christian faith with peoplethroughout this entire nation.
Consider coming, bringingfamily, bringing friends,
bringing your church, bringingmaybe other friends you know who
are yet to believe.
It's just a wonderful eveningof joy and we hope you can all

(26:39):
join us.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
I've had the privilege of attending and
participating in the Sing anIrish Christmas event.
You don't want to miss thisCarnegie Hall December 9th.
And for discount tickets foryour purchase, email the choir
room at metro music dash artsdot com.
My wife and I will be there.
Our co-hosts and their spouseswill be there, so get your
tickets.
We want to see you in the place.
Keith, your musicians are justa joy to watch and hear.

Speaker 7 (27:03):
I'll tell you this One of the things we've enjoyed
in our band.
Three of our band two of ourband are African-American, one's
African-Arabian and four of usare Irish and the interaction
between Celtic and moretraditional black music styles
is actually really fun.
And I think it's come becausethey're people who love the Lord

(27:25):
, they love each other and alsothey just want to make great
music.
Do you know what I mean?
They work hard to make it greatand because they're also good,
they'll try and make somethinggood, but if it's not good,
they'll go OK, let's not do that, it's just a little more.
You know what I mean.
And we'll say it nicely to eachother.
Sometimes their bubbles getburst a little bit, but that's
OK.
But that didn't come becausewe're trying to be cool.

(27:48):
That didn't come because we'retrying to do the next thing To
be because we're somehow bendingthe culture.
That became because we love theLord and we loved each other
and we spent a ton of timetogether.
And we were there for eachother.
And I think great art does comeout of great community, and I
know that's not why I'm here,but I think it's important for

(28:10):
our choir.
So I think what makes greatchoirs.
You know, when I broke into themusic industry and I was 18
years old, I became a conductorfor the BBC and a lot of their
stuff and we always used to makethis joke I did a choir as an
orchestra and the joke wasalways you join an orchestra.
If you love singing in a choir,you join a choir.
If you love your instrument,you join an orchestra.

(28:32):
And that's why the atmosphereis different in both and that's
why they're actually differentthings.
Even in the Bible the symbolismis different.
A choir is a unity of people.
You can put up with a choirthat's a 60% choir 70%, 80% in
terms of its standard, if thepeople love each other and they
enjoy being together.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
That community is crucial.
There's nothing like thatcommunity.
Where in an orchestra, themusicians play.
They come through their thingand then they scatter.

Speaker 7 (29:02):
Yeah, they're glad because they love their oboe and
they still practice their oboeor whatever it is, or their
cello or whatever the thing isthey do.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
You know, when we talk about choir and community,
corporate singing or corporateworship, what is the most
significant thing to you as itrelates to those groups, as it
relates to that coming together?

Speaker 7 (29:19):
Well, I think the difference between singing and
other artistic expressions or alot of other things we do as
part of our wake up, part of theChristian life, is that number
one we're commanded to sing andto command to sing.
If you include the exhortationslike proclaim praise I think

(29:40):
it's about the edith and thePsalms, different words that are
used If you include them all,it becomes the second most
common command in all ofScripture.
In other words, singing isdeeply important to God.
Most of us have raised kidshere.
When we tell our kids we willrepeat something to our kids,
they know it's more important,doesn't know it's mean the best,
but they know it's moreimportant.
And so, if this is the thingthat God has said second most

(30:01):
important, it's of hugesignificance.
And so it's important that whenwe bring people to sing at
church, when we're introducingpeople in our worship, it's
important for people that arechoir doing this.
Yes, because they love to singand yes, because their choir is
cool and it's fun and they lovemusic.
But we're supposed to do thisprimarily because God has said
you do this.
So, regardless of our state ofmind and I say this very

(30:25):
sensitively because you knowI've been sitting, spending a
lot of the last 24 hours with afriend of mine who just lost his
daughter and he doesn't feelmuch like singing.
So I feel that pain veryacutely.
But you know, we sing first ofall because we're commanded to
sing and so when we're leadingour congregations we don't have
to be bossy or bullish orpatronizing, but we can just,

(30:47):
you know, read the Psalms to say, hey, we're starting the
service, you know we usesomething from the Psalms, just
read something beautiful andhelp people understand in the
audience.
Because I think and this hashappened in every tradition,
this happened in the Englishcathedral tradition was, you
know, the service becameincreasingly about the choir,

(31:08):
because the better the music was, the more people come to your
church in the short term.
But that doesn't build a bodyof believers.
And then the same thing hashappened in the modern
megachurch where it's becomemore about the front.
And you know the black gospeltradition is a much stronger
tradition historically forcongregational singing.
But we all have to watch it.

(31:28):
We all have to watch it Becauseit can easily become all about
the front.
But the whole congregation needto know they are there to sing
because they're commanded tosing.
So the guy who's veryunemotional, our sports fan and
you know doesn't like singing orcan't sing in tune, naturally.
You know he's still allowed tosing, you know, and that's what

(31:48):
makes it different than paintingand that's what makes it
different than so many otherthings.
The second thing is that we'recreated to sing.
So when we sing to our makerand our redeemer, we feel a
sense of joy that nothing elsein this life could give.
I mean our offices.
I live here in the south sideof the city in Nashville.

(32:09):
Our offices are just off MusicRow, so I can drive down Music
Row in the morning to ouroffices and I can see people
eating.
Some people here are my friendson the posters.
Congratulations on this numberone.
Come to the big party tonightto celebrate them.
And you see it all around TimesSquare, all the bookboards.
Let me tell you this I havenever once been tempted to want
to wish that life rather thanthe life I have.

(32:29):
The joy of singing to our Lordis a joy that is more intense
and more beautiful and more holy.
But it also means being.
We were created to sing.
It also means our Lord lovescreated beauty.
He loves beauty, whether it'sthe Grand Canyon or whether it's
the Irish coastline.
He loves beauty and you see itall around Times Square is that

(32:52):
we are made as human beings tocreate beautifully.
So that's why it's importantfor choir members and choir
directors and composers andarrangers and piano players to
play well, because every notecounts.
Every note counts, that's great, yeah, and the Lord appreciates
excellence.
There are some sections of thechurch who almost look down on

(33:12):
musical excellence, aredeliberately or not encouraging
because they're worried somehowthat we might get too pride.
We still want to encourage eachother to play beautifully.
You know, your fellow NewYorker, tim Keller, used to
always say that excellence isthe most inclusive virtue.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 7 (33:31):
If you're a really funny person, everyone wants to
listen to you.
If you're a really good cook,everyone wants to come to your
house when you're cooking.
If you make beautiful music,everybody wants to listen, you
know, and so.
So I think that's the secondthing, but I think the big
reason that we sing is becauseof Christ.
And, sorry to be, I grew upPresbyterian guy, so I have to
do my kind of three C's, but youknow, commandment and then

(33:52):
Christ, and you know, you know,I remember, I remember actually
watching that was one of theBrooklyn Tabernacle videos where
that guy who had been left inthe streets for dead he was he
crack with you and addict Calvin.
And then you sang that song I'mclean, I'm clean.
I think his name was Calvin.
Right, I'm clean, I've beenwashed in the blood and the

(34:14):
tears rolling down his face.
That's how we should all feel,you know.
I mean, I don't know if youknow my conversion wasn't as
dramatic, but my word, how theLord has freed us from from,
from the, you know, from sin anddeath and being slaves to
ourselves.
So so I've spoken for too long,I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2 (34:34):
No, no, I love it, it's a command.

Speaker 7 (34:36):
Command it to sing yeah, some question.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
Command it, create it and create it, and for Christ,
amen.
No, no, that's, that's, that'swhat I couldn't have said it
better.
No, maybe a little bit, but notnot.

Speaker 7 (34:46):
No, you could have.
You could have.
You got the vibe.
I got no vibe.
No, I'm sure, on rhythmic mywife doesn't even let me clap.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
We don't believe that , not even for a second.
You've got a command it to sing.
Created to sing and because ofChrist and I've often said in
this podcast and say it often,in fact it was the catalyst for
this podcast the choir room is,that is, that people should be
singing.
In scripture says make a joyfor noise into the load all you
land.
It doesn't say make a joy fornoise if you have a beautiful

(35:16):
voice, just make a joy for noiseunto the Lord and so give that
to him.
And I think the beauty ofcongregational singing as much
as I love choir the beauty ofcongregational singing is that
you don't have to audition, youjust have to open your mouth and
grab hold of those three C'sand I think when you do,
something wonderful comes out ofyou.

Speaker 7 (35:36):
I used to.
I used to tell I was askedsomewhere to ask someone else
who wants.
Why is it?
The Lord can be, can delight inall of our singing, even if
you're like one of the starsolos in the choir or you're
somebody who's rolled in off thestreet and can't sing.
Why is the Lord like them all?
So I told this story about onetime our girls, when the girl,
when Eliza, charlotte and Graciewere small, before Tally was
born, and we are Christen usedto do this him and the month.

(35:59):
That we're not, we're not oneof these like fancy Christian
families that do like, you know,to our devotionals and all the
kids are perfect and gentlemen,then they're always smiling all
the time.
We're just like, we're just amess, so like.
But we do, we do him everymonth, we do it each day, and
you so often it was just, wetake him to bed at night.
We do the him and the month.
I would say the Lord's prayer,then we'd turn the lights on and
and you know whatever else, butanyway, we're doing holy, holy,

(36:22):
holy.
So we're doing holy, holy, holy.
And so we're all one of theroom, one like okay, girls,
let's all sing a verse of holy,holy before bed.
This is our him and the monthand Eliza goes.
Can I go first?
She's the oldest and she goesholy, holy, holy.
Just typical oldest child,trying her best, doing
everything right, being slightlycompetitive, slightly
patronizing, you know, but itwas great, you know.
Then Charlotte, the second kid,who's a bit more of a, you know

(36:44):
a little bit more of a, let'ssay, let's say, let's say it's
got a little bit more attitude.
She gets up but she's anamazing singer.
So she sings it, but just likerows or shoulders, doesn't it
care?
And then Grace, he gets up andshe goes.
She just always wanted to belike her big sisters and she
went holy, holy, holy.
How I wonder what.
You are up above the world, sohigh like a diamond in the sky,

(37:09):
holy, holy, holy.
Listen, trinity, but you know,if you're going to tell me, as
my, as a dad, as the dad, that I, I loved her, anywhere less is
just not true.
She was three years old, youknow, she was three years old.
So so she, you know, she'stelling you twinkle, twinkle

(37:30):
better, and they're kind of thesame.
They're kind of the same change.
So it was like you know so.
That's, that's how God looks atus, you know.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
That's awesome.
That's awesome.
I've seen the hymn of the month.
I think you do it on YouTube.
There's something out thereit's free.

Speaker 7 (37:47):
Everything my wife does costs just money.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
Well, it's bringing some returns.
Well, we just heard the promofor the Irish Christmas.
Tell our audience a little moreabout it.

Speaker 7 (37:59):
Well, we're still working through.
We're not announcing the guestsuntil next week, so we're one
week early for the guests.
But for the musical guests itwas a little this year.
Kristen and I have always had aromance about New York.
We came to New York to getengaged.
Obviously we need Tim.
We just love the city, we lovethe energy, we love the
multicultural thing, and so Ican tell you the second half

(38:23):
this week and then next weekwe'll tell you the first half.
So the second half, nine lessonsin carols, we have this year.
I just thought I want this yearto be a tribute to New York
because I was at Tim's funeralearlier in the year.
Last year we did the Confessiorecord.
The Grammy nominee at Albemontwas Irish but Irish American

(38:44):
roots, and Ricky Skagg is notthose guys who our Kirk Willem
was there.
So the second half, the ninthlesson, is going to be in the
beginning was the word, and thenthere'll be a closing prayer by
Michael Keller.
So Michael Keller is going todo that.
I think AR Bernard is going todo the thought and the eighth
lesson.
So he's going to do the readingand AR Bernard is going to do
some thoughts there.
Malcolm Guy the poet.

(39:05):
He's actually an English poet,but he's writing a poem about
New York being premiered atCarnegie Hall that night in the
second half.
It's going to be good, I cantell you.
On the classical end we'redoing.
It's the 300th anniversary ofJesus' joy of man's desiring by
this guy here.
Wow, nice job, good job.
I've been encouraging him.

Speaker 2 (39:25):
I think he winked at you man.
That's a little scary.

Speaker 7 (39:28):
No, he didn't.
He doesn't listen too close toour version, but we're going to
do a 300th anniversary of Jesus'joy of man's desiring in the
second half as well.
That's the second half.
That's going to be awesome.
I can count the nine to thefirst half till next week.
I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2 (39:40):
I understand.
No, no, no, that's great, great, and the date right now is
December 9th this year is theninth, Ninth Saturday night.

Speaker 7 (39:47):
Saturday night live.
My friends Saturday night live,and you don't usually do a
Saturday, it's usually on aThursday night.
They usually give us the worstpossible night.
They're actually next year.
It's Monday the 16th.
Next year it's my 50th birthday.
I know how could someone wholooks so young be turning 50
next Christmas?

Speaker 2 (40:04):
Well, you know you and I are.
You know we share a birthday,right?
You forgot about that.
I had forgotten.

Speaker 7 (40:10):
You did so.
Will, you, will, you, will, you, will you make a guest
appearance with me on stage.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
Absolutely.
It's going to be my birthdaytoo.
If I can't get on the stage,I'm not coming.

Speaker 7 (40:20):
Right, do you know who else's birthday it is?
It's Jerry Root, who the worldauthority in CS Lewis.
Oh really, yeah, yeah, yeah,wow, maybe we should do a trio
together.
Yeah, it's good.
And do you know who else'sbirthday?
It is Beethoven, kandinsky,alexander the Great, cheyenne,
austin.
There are so many amazingpeople born in the 16th.

(40:41):
You've studied this thing, wow,yeah yeah, yeah, it's a, it's a
, it's a, it's a.
The Boston Tea Party happenedin the 16th of December.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
Well, that I remember .
I learned that in school.

Speaker 7 (40:51):
No, coward thing to stay at our guy.
If you guys are into Broadway,celebrates no coward.
For many reasons.
I can get ready for him, guys.
Well, somebody, georgeWhitfield, the revivalist,
george Whitfield, 16th ofDecember 16th really.
Please rescue this podcast fromthe end.

Speaker 2 (41:15):
Okay, Before we get into our callers, tell us about
the sing conference.

Speaker 7 (41:20):
Yeah, yeah yeah, so, um, so, the.
The singing conference thisyear is called singing.
There's songs in the Bible.
Many of the great expositorsand great artists are going to
be coming together.
First day is the Old Testament,bathing in the Psalms.
The second day is the NewTestament, with a global thing
that night it's really and thethird day is called the Bible in
the modern world, and so lotsof interesting things.
I mean the.
I'm trying to think, uh, thefirst night is going to finish

(41:43):
with a couple of late nightshows.
We're going to do a Messiahthing, handles Messiah.
We're also doing AndrewPeterson.
If you know Andrew Peterson,it's Behold the Lamb of God,
musical Uh-huh, genesisrevelation.
He's in that.
The first night, then thesecond night we have this
incredible celebration ofrevelation, the great hymns, the
great liturgy of of heaven, andwe've actually got a completely
global audience.
We're I've been asked to leadthe global band for Lausanne

(42:05):
Congress next year.
Every 15 years, as you know,lausanne Congress happens and
it's going to be in South Korea.
So I got our band plus fourextras, which gives it a kind of
a six component.
A six component, okay, shouldhave multiple, cultural, multi
thing, and so that band aregoing to lead the same
conference first and then doLausanne, so it's going to be a
real celebration of that.
Um, we would 41 nationalitiesat the conference next year.

(42:27):
We're not.
We're not Times Square yet, butwe can.
Yeah, we do our best.
You know we're one of these,and uh, and then we also got
some really interesting peoplein the 30.
You know Chris's uncle,professor John Lennox.
He will be there.
Rick Dempsey, the old is thather uncle, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 9 (42:41):
I didn't know that he introduced us.
I didn't know that.

Speaker 7 (42:46):
I was a slightly strong minded, I'd spoken 18
year old.
I know you kind of imagine thatYou're just thinking I bet he
was the loveliest 18 year old.
Well, donald Lennox and I wasdebating people of Islamic
backgrounds, of atheistbackgrounds, and I needed some
help.
And I met him and he changed mylife.
He just was wonderful.
And then, six years later, hesaid he said, by the way, could

(43:07):
you do me a favor?
And I said do you want to doanything for you?
You've been so good to me.
And he goes I have this littleniece, she's 18.
She's only 18 years old, justfinishing school, and she'd love
to sing.
But I think she needs somebody,you know, who's Christian and
mature and in the industry,could help her, because all the
guys around her just want todate her and they all, they're
all.
She's very beautiful and theyall just want to.

(43:28):
You know, they're all aroundher for the wrong reasons and I
need somebody who's older, moremature, who can take care of her
and protect her, and so couldyou be that person?
So yeah, so yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:39):
Wow, I did not know that.

Speaker 7 (43:41):
What a stupid idiot I mean stupid idiot.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Well, if anything, you wised up.

Speaker 7 (43:51):
Yeah, that's right, and she wouldn't go out with me
for three years.
I mean, man, she put me throughthe ringer, yeah.
She had to know, I had to knowthat I had to work, I had to
keep writing songs just to get,just to get something close to a
date, you know, like a get.

Speaker 2 (44:07):
So man, that's exciting.
So we've got December 9th forthe Irish Christmas Yep, and
then, of course, next year wecan talk about the same
conference coming up.

Speaker 7 (44:20):
And the joint Keith getting Greg Thomas' birthday
party.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
Yeah, well, that's going to be a smash, because, in
fact, I'm going to startadvertising that right after the
podcast.
So, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 7 (44:29):
He was doubting Thomas.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
All right, enough of that, lord willing, we'll both
live to see 2024.
Let's get to our audience withtheir questions.

Speaker 7 (44:39):
I'm sitting talking about dating on 16th of December
.

Speaker 2 (44:46):
All right, let's go to Ben in Connecticut.

Speaker 8 (44:49):
Yeah, I'd love to just ask you what your
definition of a hymn is.
Besides the message, primarilybeing the gospel, I feel like
most hymns have a certain soundto them as well.
What do you define it as?
Yeah, you know what?

Speaker 7 (45:03):
The short answer is it's not like animal evils,
woman.
There isn't a scientificdifference and multiple define
it differently.
I just honestly, our songs got.
People went.
When they heard in Christlin,they went this is more like
hymns, this isn't like worshipsongs.
So they just could call modernhymns by other people.
It wasn't I didn't like to finda brand and do it, it was just
people called them that.

(45:23):
I would say hymns, historically,were put together by the church
pastors.
They tended to be, for example,hymn books.
You tended to pick a hymnbecause it would last for the
duration of the hymnals.
So they tended to be songs thatwere more timeless in nature
and they were always about thebody of people singing.
It wasn't about you don'tfinish and go.

(45:47):
How did we perform today?
It was like, how did thecongregation sing?
So I think those emphasis intheology in slightly more
timelessness and in verycongregationality to a degree
that you can sing them in yourhomes as well.
You know, you know amazinggrace and Jesus loves me, not
because of the number of timesyou sang it in church, but
because of the number of timesit was sung around your house as

(46:07):
well, and over years and yearsand years, and also the fact
that it was repeated over yearsand years and years and years.
So I think that's.
I don't try to wave.
I don't try to wave hymn good,worship song bad or prayer song
bad.
I've no sense of that, but justthat we should have aimed
towards that.
I hope that's an okay answer,ben.

Speaker 8 (46:29):
Great answer, thank you.

Speaker 7 (46:31):
Thanks.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
It's much like a lot of the Christmas carols we sing
today as well, you know, wecontinue to sing them because
they you know there is a message.
But then we've been singingthem over and over, even Rudolph
the retinals right there, eventhough there's no message.

Speaker 7 (46:43):
Funny story.
Funny story.
Funny story Keith Green.
Remember the early Christianmusician Keith Green?
Yes, you know, he, he, he andhis wife Melody.
They were obviously saved froma Jewish background so they had
no Christian experience.
And someone once had anfavorite in the Christmas I've
written a hymn and she didn'tknow what a hymn was and they
said what's a hymn?
And they went it's kind of likea Christmas carol.
So there's a redeemer, wastheir attempt at a Christmas

(47:04):
carol.
Do you believe that Isn't thatcool.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
Oh wow, yeah, here we go.
All right, let's go to Cherylin New Jersey.
Hey, cheryl.

Speaker 11 (47:14):
Yeah, hello.
When you were, let's say,younger, did you like?
How did you always love hymns,like you know, let's say before
you went into, I guess,full-time music ministry.
I know you said you grew up inthe Presbyterian background.
I went to a Presbyterian churchtoo.

(47:34):
That's not the only thing, butwas it something where you were
listening to one thing and thensuddenly or at some point you
liked hymns, or did you justalways kind of gravitate toward?

Speaker 7 (47:46):
You know I grew up.
I grew up with a mixture ofeverything.
I was a classical musician, sothat sort of very high church
thing was my classical music.
Sunday morning was traditionalhymns at our church with the
organ and Sunday evening wasgospel songs with the piano and
then the youth group was praisesongs.
Praise, worship songs.
So I lived kind of in the fourworlds and so, yeah, I think

(48:09):
there's a couple of answers tothat.
I think it's really importantfor all of us, as parents and as
leaders, to give the nextgeneration a taste for deep
songs, because if you love theLord, you want to know him
deeply, and great songs do that,can do that.
So in a culture where we'vebeen fed a lot of silly songs
that aren't songs, that justaren't very deep, I think we

(48:31):
want to be cultivating a taste.
I think it's a very, very,really good question.
So I think we need to make theeffort to do that and sometimes,
like giving my daughtersmedicine last week when she
didn't want to eat medicine, youhave to put it in sugar and
candy.
So if the language of yourchurch is a certain worship
leader or a CCM, for example,you find a hymn recording by a
CCM artist or you do a hymn thatworks well in a black gospel

(48:54):
style or whatever, and you findways to do it that way, but I
think it's important for us toso.
To answer your question numberone, I grew up with every kind
of music but I was able tocultivate from my early age an
appreciation for great hymns.
Secondly, I think we have toall of us have to make the
effort as leaders to love ourchildren enough to care for this

(49:14):
, one of the big weaknesses ofthe post-World War II or
certainly post-1980 Christianchurches.
Until about 1980, pastors werereally involved in the songs or
congregations sang.
Now, sometimes they could be.
We all know pastors can not bethe easiest to work with, but
they were involved.
But why?
Because they loved theircongregation enough to care

(49:35):
about what they sang.
Yeah yeah, my fear is, in thelast 40 years, pastors have
almost used music like amarketing tool, and so if one
style or one team becomeexpendable or we move them on,
we want them to entertain, towarm the congregation up, and
great music is attractive, butat the same time, you need to

(49:55):
love your congregation and yourkids enough to have them singing
great songs.
We don't want them beingdiscipled by Taylor Swift, as
talented as she is, and we don'twant them being the way.
We want them feeding on theirSunday on songs that are just
saying if you have a positive,unrelated ideas about the Lord,
yeah, yeah, very good, thank you.

(50:17):
Thank you.
Thank you for the question.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
I think if you guys and this is for our listeners as
well if you haven't looked intoattending the Sing Conference,
you need to look into that for2024.
I think it'll bless youtremendously.
You will hear the gospelpreached, sang, and the two come
together in a way that's notgenerally done in your typical

(50:39):
morning Sunday morning service.
So Sing Conference is a greatopportunity for you.
All right, let's go to Alan inNew York.
Alan.

Speaker 10 (50:47):
Good afternoon.
So it's not a question, but Iknow you said I could like more
of a kind of a conversationquestion.
You mentioned in something thatyou were saying about a friend
who had lost their daughter andthen didn't feel like singing,
you know, and probably throughthe morning and stuff like that.
But then you also mentionedthat we're created to sing right

(51:12):
.
And then you also and it kindof reminded me because I had
recently lost my mom and there'slike these droughts, that kind
of come in.
You know that kind of like yourfeelings right, like your
feelings can be like like thump.
You know a little bit.

(51:32):
You know to open up your mouthand what I noticed that what
helps me and what always helpsme, you know not just the hands,
but it's probably throwing onthe songs that I kind of grew up
with under great Thomas and youknow various other worship
people like Fred Hammond andstuff like that, and but I do

(51:52):
notice that I think my firstintroduction to him I'm probably
the youngest person coming toChrist on this panel as far as
when I came to Christ was whengreat, you know, at Times Square
Church, used to pull out thepiano in the middle of the stage
and then do the hymns and thenexplain why that hymn was wrote.

(52:17):
You know what caused that hymnto be written.
I think that made it moreattractive to me, you know, and
I think that and it just kind ofmade me realize, like, you know
, like there's a testimony ofwhat a person went through and
why they're singing, you know,but I find that you don't really
hear the hymns.
You know like too much anymorein the churches much, and I find

(52:40):
that you know, it's almost liketaking out, you know, the root
of why we still do what we do.
You know, and I just want toknow your thoughts about that.

Speaker 7 (52:51):
Sure, I think there might have been four questions
there, but I think it's largelysinging about suffering and
singing into suffering and thereality of human life and the
loss of a hymn emphasis.
So let me tackle it.
Let me say two or three things.
First of all, interestingthings.
The church's hymn book,primarily for most of 20
centuries certainly 19,certainly 18 centuries was the

(53:14):
Bible's hymn book which iscalled the Psalms.
And in the Psalms we have a Godwho is holy, who is awesome,
who is terrifying, who is acreator, who is our shepherd,
who is our friend, who delightsin our praises and is longing to
forgive even the most wicked ofsinners.

(53:35):
And we've got human.
But we've also got a God who'sintensely interested in
compassion.
We've a God who is deeply movedby justice and has no time for
the unjust.
We have a God who is mysteriousand can't always be explained
and we have to bow before Hisholy.
And we have a God who isomnipresent and sees everything

(53:58):
we do, everything we think,everything we look at in our
computer and everything that wefeel about other people who have
somehow stolen our doughnut inlife.
We also have a God who loves,loves with me, who asks us to
sing and celebrate and shout anddance and play and play

(54:19):
excellently and play loudly butalso a God who is silent, who is
wanting us to lament, to repent, to weep, to mourn and to turn
on the unbended knee in worshipto Him.

(54:42):
And the modern version ofChristianity in worship usually
I say usually does notincorporate that breadth.
When they use the Psalms, ittends to be happy verses rather
than the whole picture that thePsalms gave.
Most churches couldn't actuallyread most of the Psalms in
their worship service because itwould be so awkward or jarring

(55:03):
to them.
Because it's too.
Do you know why?
Because it's too real, it's toomuch really like what life is.
It has the anger and theunfairness.
It has the lack of justice andthe lack of love for the
oppressed.
And so we?
There's something wrong if ourchurch worship services don't

(55:24):
look like the Book of Psalms.
The second thing is it's notjust in our music.
Many of our preachers try toalmost impress on Christianity,
turn Christianity into a part ofpositive thinking, kind of
self-help, self-management, kindof faith, and take sin out of
it.
When you take sin out of it, itis not Christianity.

(55:47):
I guarantee you, for everyself-help Christian talk,
so-called Christian talk, youget Oprah or somebody else can
offer you something better.
You know Oprah or the momentsor Elon Musk or something.
Somebody will offer yousomething better.
Christianity is at the heart, isa story of God becoming,

(56:08):
becoming man, to die for oursins, to rise and conquer the
grave and to return to thisworld to give all of our lives,
every day, every moment, everystep by step, a direction
towards that final moment whenall of history will wrap up.
So I think that's the hope thatI have and that's the hope I

(56:29):
want to sing about.
When we look at the book ofRevelation, the song that
they're singing is the song ofthe blood of the Lamb, where
we'll all stand before Him.
That's the center of our story.
So if our stories, if ourworship services don't include
the gospel and they don'tinclude an honest view of the
actual God of the Bible, not thekind of the Santa Claus
evangelical version thatsometimes is paraded and this

(56:52):
kind of the Disney life that ittries to throw around, but if
we're away from the gospel andaway from the Psalms, it's not
actually authentic Christianity.
And the irony is people try todo that to make Christianity
softer and easier and I think itjust makes it look less
authentic, less sincere andactually in the end, offers
people nothing.

(57:13):
We had friends, we had my wife'scousins, a lovely family, but
they started getting involved inchurches that were very light,
just not I'm not going todescribe them too much but there
was a lack of substance in thechurches and lots and lots of
contemporary songs that changedevery week and she got cancer of

(57:35):
the brain and was taken from usat the age of 22.
She was a beautiful girl.
She'd been to Africa to workand start to build water for
little villages.
She was a model, she wasbeautiful and the Lord took her
at 22, and we'll never know why.
We'll never know why.
But when it came to her funeral, it was all hymns and I said
why.
I'm a bit surprised, if youdon't mind me saying it.

(57:56):
I was so surprised.
The hymn choices and they wentyeah, this is too serious for us
to sing worship songs.
That was cool.
Now, in one sense, I get it.
In one sense I get it.
The Bible is very clear.
There are seasons forcelebrating and seasons for
mourning.
There's every season of life,but I think if the worship

(58:21):
service we have is not preparingus for death, in the same way,
as the preaching we're doing isnot preparing us for death, then
it's not preparing us for life,right?
So I think that's reallyimportant.
And finally, I would say, whenit comes to people your other
question was people who justwhen you don't feel like singing

(58:41):
, I think we just need pastoralsensitivity and to love people.
It's such an emotional thing,but that we have to know what we
can sing.
Don't forget 50 of the 150Psalms were laments.
Life is not supposed to be goodall the time, so I'd encourage

(59:02):
you to sing into the gospel,sing into the Bible's laments,
pray those laments and know that, as we gradually do over time,
that the Lord brings us awonderful healing and a
wonderful sense of redemption inevery part of life.
That's all I got my heart'sbreaking so much from a friend.

(59:23):
Right now I don't feel like I'mthe most biggest expert I've
been able to help teach.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
That was very powerful.
Right there as you werespeaking, keith, I was thinking
some 137.
By the rivers of Babylon.
There we sat.
You talk about a condition and astate of people who were so far
from their homeland and so farfrom all of the things that they
were familiar with in life.

(59:47):
Now they've got none of that,to the point where now we're
hanging up our hearts, we can'teven sing.
How shall I sing the Lord'ssong on a strange land?
You talk about being broken andtalk about being destitute and
marginalized and enslaved.
But yet I think today there hasto be something in us, just

(01:00:07):
like you said.
There has to be something in usthat and I say this often that
causes us to refuse to hang upour hearts during those
difficult times.
It is well with my soul waswritten.
You talk about your friendhaving lost a daughter.
Some of the greatest hymnswe've ever known, we know today
we're written out of very tragicsituations.

(01:00:29):
It is well with my soul verysimilar story.
Being able to sing or worshipthrough the battle is crucial
for the believer.
Welcome to the quiet blue.
All right, we're going to hearfrom Angel in Pennsylvania.

Speaker 6 (01:00:47):
First of all, thank you so very much for being with
us today.
Earlier, you were talking aboutbeing careful not to be a bully
in terms of inspiringcongregational singing, because
what I find is worshipers, weenjoy worshiping and I always
thought there's always a songfor every emotion and so.

(01:01:11):
But when you have congregationmembers that kind of appear to
be spectating and it just may bethat not everyone is musically
driven, you have any advice?

Speaker 7 (01:01:29):
No, it's a great question.
So the question is so werecommanded to sing, very good,
but what happens if somebodyhits singing or they're rubbish
at singing or they don't feellike singing?
I think you know, I think it'sa.
I think I think the first thingI have about advice is, as a
leader, I would help thecongregation know that we sing

(01:01:50):
because we're commanded to singand you know, like anything else
, we can tell them that ahundred different ways, a
hundred different times.
That's what I'm finding.
That's what I'm finding with mydaughters.
When I try to teach them stuff,I don't tell them something
once and they go oh hold on, letme just.
Let me just put that in mycomputer and press save and then
change my whole heart.
That's not really how it works.

(01:02:10):
So it's something we have tokeep reminding them.
You know.
So you know, of course the Lordhas commanded us to sing, and I
don't know about you, butthere's some days I don't feel
like singing, but the Lord hascommanded me to, so I've had to
check my own heart Some days.
Let's listen to what God's wordsays.
It says we need to come out andsing.
That's to everyone, that's tothe people in the congregation.
You know who are, you know.

(01:02:32):
You know, you know who are areinto opera, and for the people
in the congregation who are intothe jets Do you know what I
mean?
It doesn't really matter, it'sthat's, that's, that's the,
that's the, the command of thisother times.
But I think there's also an onusin us to choose songs that are
whole congregation can sing somelodically, and and also, I'd

(01:02:56):
say I'd say be especiallycareful of the songs you start
with.
You know.
So you know, you know, thinkabout it.
Think about it in life.
I mean.
Art is an interesting thing.
I think I'm Burmese culture.
Recently, in Burmese culture,the word for art and the word
for life is still the same word.
They don't change the word.
But you know, if you're invitingyour family for Christmas, you

(01:03:18):
know how do you, how do youwelcome them all in.
You know, here's my uncle fromArkansas and here's my and
here's my cousins from fromMaine.
Okay, that's, that's in thefront door.
Start a conversation aboutpolitics.
That's the best way to makethis really welcoming, peaceful,
kind of not in a million years.
So we find ways to warm peopleup, and so we're, we're being

(01:03:39):
family.
We're not actually starting aconcert, we're actually
welcoming family into the home.
So let's find ways to do thatwell, but again, I think also a
little bit of teaching this iswhere the pastor's not preaching
about congregational singing iscost us.
So I'd encourage your pastor topreach about it.
That's the, that's another thingI would really say at the end
of the day, at the end of theday, the biggest thing about

(01:04:01):
family singing andcongregational singing and this
might sound I hope this doesn'tsound wrong guys, I hope it
doesn't sound sexist, it's notmeant that way.
But in my experience, whendaddy doesn't sing, nobody sings
.
You can say that about familyand you can say that about
church.
If the senior pastor loves hispeople praising, the church,
love to praise, if daddy sings,the whole family sing.

(01:04:23):
If daddy does not sing, mommymaybe sings, maybe two of the
daughters sing, the sons don'tthat kind of.
But that's that is.
You know, that kind of thing isimportant.
But also I think it's importantto realize why do we sing?
Well, we sing first of allbecause we're commanded.
We sing because we're.
We sing because God is worthyof praise.
He is more worthy of praisethan the Yankees.
He's more worthy of praise thanour biggest victories.

(01:04:45):
Yeah, you know.
And if the people around us seeus not that excited about it,
that's not saying something,that is screaming something you
know, and so we've got to helpthem understand that.
But, and even more than that,we're not just singing because
of what it does for God and itdoes for us, but it's being
family.

(01:05:05):
So I'm singing because theperson three year olds in front
of me might be, might be caughtin a hopeless addiction, or
might be going through a seasonof doubt, or might have been
brought up in the church butnever come to believe, and I'm
singing for them too.
So we're singing to each other.
It's part of our expression asfamily.
I don't know if any of thosethings help.

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):
Oh, that resonates with me.
I'm sure it resonates with allof our callers.
Let's go to Chris and New City.
Chris Cruz, how are?

Speaker 8 (01:05:33):
you.
Hey, I'm doing fine.
How you doing?
Don't form.
Did I meet you once at thechurch?
Uh, probably, probably.
I've known.
Greg has known me since I was12.
So, yeah, he's known me for awhile.
Okay, good to see you, chris.
Good to see you too.
I got a quick question.
I was just thinking about youknow what you were talking about

(01:05:54):
earlier about church worship.
Now, reddit statistic where itsaid like 70 to 80% of the songs
and this was a poll that wasdone across hundreds of churches
across the country 70 to 80% ofthe songs that churches do in
their worship are done by threeartists Elevation, maverick and

(01:06:17):
Bethel.
And I don't I don't, I don'thave anything against them.
I actually love many of theirsongs.
But my question is do you thinkit would benefit churches to
write more of their own musicfor their congregations?

Speaker 7 (01:06:31):
It's a great question .
It's a great question Of thetop 500 songs sung in America.
There are a number of dominantgroups and our organization
getting music is 36 of them.
So we're, we're, we're.
We're not as strong as they are, but we're, we're.
We participate a lot in thatand but, but.

(01:06:52):
Again, ours tends to be forvery different demographic.
I think we have to ask a numberof questions, don't we?
So I think the primary questionis what is a healthy diet for
our congregation?
I think that's a better placeto start rather than let's not,
let's not necessarily criticizeother people.
So what's a healthy diet forour congregation?

(01:07:14):
Well, I'd suggest, I'd suggestpersonally we need to sing songs
that are deep about the Lordand that we can carry with us
for life, not exclusively.
If you decide that should be30% or 50% or 70% or 80%, that's
entirely clear, fine.
But I would start there and saywhat are the hymns?
We want them to know Are youslated or local church?
We just go to the local churchhere.
We're not, we're not kind ofmega church guys, we just go to

(01:07:35):
the local church.
It was a really good youthgroup and youth leader has this
thing that there's 50 hymns.
He wants all the kids to knowbefore they leave for college,
which I think is a great rule ofthumb.
Now, when you've got 50 greathymns that you sing when you're
16 year olds, know things likeand can it be, and these kinds

(01:07:56):
of hymns and Hark the HeraldAngel saying that, but great
hymns of the faith, when Isurvey the wondrous cross, when
they know these kinds of hymns,you know that's a great start
they have in their devotionallife and their personal prayer
life.
And so I'd start there.
I would say what do we want todo, rather than let's have a
fight with Elevation or Beth orHillsonger, whatever I'm sure

(01:08:25):
you want to do first and thenask what songs work along.
That I mean, I would say it wasa side note.
I would say two things toconsider.
If those churches theologydoesn't match your church's
theology, then there is aawkward dysfunction that's going
to happen.
So just be.

(01:08:45):
Or even if that is notsomething that's wrong but just
a bizarre shift in influence.
So, for example, if your pastoris saying that is preaching
against sin, but you don't singa single worship song that
mentions the word sin for sixweeks.
That's actually creating a veryunhealthy dysfunction in your

(01:09:09):
life.
It will be the equivalent of metwo weeks ago going to my
dietician and she's saying yougot to lose four pounds, keith.
Then I go off to these threehotels and go to like eight
parties in 10 days and come backand go hey, I didn't lose my
four pounds and she's going well, keith.
There's reasons for that,because what's actually going in
is not what we discussed, itwas not the theory that we

(01:09:30):
discussed.
So anyway, but so I thinkthat's the good thing.
I think also, you know, I thinkyou know, I had this
conversation with a friend ofmine who's pastor of two black
churches in Chicago, and we bothcome from an interesting point
of view.
I come from a British churchpoint of view, he comes from a

(01:09:53):
historical black church point ofview and that is the modern
worship movement is not verydiverse.
There's largely a bunch ofpeople between the age of 35 and
55 who all live in one of sixwealthy suburbs of Western
cities, your six Western citiesSydney, california, charlotte,
nashville, atlanta and Dallasand almost the quarters of the

(01:10:17):
songs are coming from peoplewritten in suburbs.
Not even in those cities,they're not even living city
life like you guys are.
They're living suburban life.
They're between 35 and 55.
They're wealthy and in wealthyareas, and they're writing short
songs that could work on theradio, which is really targeted
at a largely brought upChristian female audience, and

(01:10:37):
that is becoming your wholeworship diet.
Well, so my friend in Chicagoargues where are the songs about
justice?
Where are the songs that weepfor the lost?
Where are the songs that arecentered in Christ's blood as
our hope?
And I'm asking the samequestions about you know, where
are the things that weunderstand and we believed about

(01:10:58):
God, that we learned in ourcatechisms?
They've all disappeared out ofworship songs.
You know, why wouldn't I join acult?
Why wouldn't I?
There's no, there's absolutelyno reason but from those water
worship songs that I shouldn'tjoin a cult tomorrow, because
there's nothing that isspecifically enough Christian or
gospel for me to sing.
So just a few thoughts.

Speaker 2 (01:11:18):
Very good, very good.
We're going back to New Jersey.
Cheryl has a follow up.

Speaker 11 (01:11:23):
I wanted you, if you would please repeat your
comment about it, because I wantto make sure I captured it
correctly.
If the preaching is notpreparing us for death and is
not preparing us for life, isthat close to that's correct?
That's correct.

Speaker 7 (01:11:39):
If the preaching and the singing is not preparing us
for death, it's not preparing usfor life.
The ground that we stand on asyou walk out in a street in New
York today, the ground that westand on between this life and
eternity, is a tissue, and ifthere's anything the last two
weeks has taught me, it's atissue.
I sat with my friend in Rocky's.

(01:12:01):
We did a gig together.
He's a very successful musician, very humble guy.
He's Asian guy, wonderful guy,korean origin, and we talked
about raising daughters and hesaid you know, I've been so
blessed by two daughters.
We both love the Lord, they'reboth wonderful musicians,
they're both in their 20s andthey've never had any health

(01:12:22):
issues.
And three weeks later I satbeside him as he was buried and
she was 23 years old.
And, yeah, I mean there's somewonderful quotes and I wish I
had them here now.
But if you believe Christianityis true, eternity is very long

(01:12:44):
and this is a small moment onearth.
We have to live for the gloryof our creator, and so I'd
encourage you in the song, singwhat's important, sing the
things that are really valuable.
Yeah, yeah, sing about Christbeing the hope for life and
death, because I actuallybelieve that.
I think it doesn't matter if Ibelieve it, if you don't sing

(01:13:08):
something.
That's not true.
There was a 19th centuryScottish politician that said I
don't wish to write the laws ofmy nation.
It was very successful, veryeffective.
And he was asked about how doesit feel to have written the
laws of your nation and hisresponse was I do not wish to
write the laws of my nation.
If I could have only writtentheir songs.
Because he understood thatsongs go to the heart and they

(01:13:30):
go to our minds and they go toour memories and what is sung
becomes what is prayed, and whatis prayed becomes what is felt,
and what is felt becomes whatis lived.
And if we actually think we cansing songs that lessen eternity
and lessen sin and forgivenessand resurrection and hope that

(01:13:51):
we can actually live as peoplehere living for another world, I
think we're deluded.

Speaker 11 (01:13:56):
Yes, thank you so much.

Speaker 7 (01:13:57):
Thank you for your question.

Speaker 11 (01:13:59):
Yeah, and I would say this, and I don't mean this
to be flattering, but I was in,as most of us, we either in the
choir or in the music ministry,and we had many songs that were
that really spoke about therealities of you know trusting
God in hard times, or you knowwhen the unexpected happens.

(01:14:20):
What was the song Greg used tolead oh my Lord, I still have a
praise and it talks about whenthe last thing you may want to
do, or find very hard to do, isto sing.
You know, through whatever madeyou know situations of life.
So I really appreciate that.

(01:14:41):
Now, the other question Iwanted to ask is because you
it's not a bot question, but mythis.
If it's goofy, then you canjust shut me down anytime.
Handles Messiah to writesomething that powerful, you
know, straight scriptural inmany times.
Do you happen to know if,because at that time that's what

(01:15:06):
people you know, the great, youknow, composers of that time
wrote a lot of things that werevery scriptural?
Were they actually people whobelieved, you know?
Wasn't more or less the stylelike this is what we do?
This is you know?
Or were they actually peoplewho followed Christ and, of

(01:15:26):
course, had this?

Speaker 7 (01:15:27):
great question you know talent yeah.
So to answer the question aboutBach, bach was a very passionate
believer.
He believes if you're going towrite music, you should also
write theology, and he studiedtheology.
You're going to put theologicalbooks as well.
And at the end of he beganevery day with a phrase that was

(01:15:50):
Yezu Yuve, which was Jesus,help me.
As he started the day, and atthe bottom of every manuscript
here at the end of every day,before he finished and went back
to his 12 kids, whatever it was, he wrote solely day of glory
to God with the glory.
What a wonderful thing, as westart every day, if we could
write Jesus help me.
And finish every day before weretire to our bedroom and go

(01:16:12):
solely day of glory.
May this glorify me in everynote and every.
So I can't answer the questionand handle it because I just
don't know.
I do think, I do think, you know, music has a great opportunity
to speak into our culture.
I would encourage people totake the scriptures and set it

(01:16:33):
to music.
I think the Lord can workthrough that.
Only the Lord has workedthrough that in marvelous ways.
And again, that's the commongrace of the Lord giving us,
giving us gifted people in somany areas.
It was in the MetropolitanMuseum of Art in New York last
last Wednesday, I think the lastThursday and and there's some

(01:16:53):
wonderful religious artwork thatwas not painted by Christians
but it was so deeply moving soalso thank you very much.
Thank you for the questions.
Yes, there will be a choir inNew York City on the center of
December.
Somebody just asked.

Speaker 2 (01:17:04):
So yes, all says that several hundred people in that
choir.
So, again, you can get moreinformation by going to
getemusiccom.
Kate, thanks for being such ablessing to us here in the choir
room and give our regards toKristin and the family To our
listeners.
Remember December 9th 2023,singing Irish Christmas at
Carnegie Hall in New York City.

(01:17:25):
And again, if you want discounttickets, you can reach out to
the choir room atMetroMusicDashArtscom.
Again, email the choir room atMetroMusicDashArtscom and
remember, if ever we put themessage in before the message,
we have failed to present anunblemished gospel.
I'm Greg Thomas.
I'll see you again right herenext week here in the choir room

(01:17:46):
.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

All Episodes

Crime Junkie