Metromusic & Arts has exciting things planned, and a forthcoming Choir Room theme song contest.
David and Elizabeth Norfrey come back once more to share the fascinating parallels between handbell choirs and vocal choirs, underlining the importance of each choir member for a harmonious performance.
Then, join an intriguing discussion on how the infusion of pop music lyrics can affect the integrity of sacred gospel music. We're turning the spotlight on these challenging questions, fueled by personal experiences and reflections. We'll also dissect the implications of changing the lyrics to popular secular music and infusing it into our worship services, and how the thirst for relevance can sometimes cast a shadow over the gospel itself.
Brace yourself for an enlightening conversation as we discuss the importance of balance in gospel presentation, ensuring the gospel's message is not overshadowed by the messenger. From exploring the concept of the body of Christ in connection with choir experience to delving into how the messenger can eclipse the message, this episode is packed with valuable insights. Tune in, and let's hit the high notes together!
Perpetuating and Promoting the Christian and Positive Idea Through the Medium of Music and Other Arts.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the choir room, season 1, episode 24 of
the Choir Room podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Welcome to the choir room.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
I'm Greg Thomas, your host, and I'll soon be joined
by my co-hosts, Dorian Johnson.
Welcome to the choir room,mietta Stansel-Farrar, and who
we like to call the fourth wheel, coleman Smart.
This podcast has a productionof Metro Music and Arts, whose
purpose is to perpetuate andpromote the Christian and
positive idea through the mediumof music and other arts.
(00:34):
This podcast exists to promoteand encourage two longtime
traditions in our society thatseem to be dwindling away, and
that is choir and corporatesinging.
We hope to revive theexcitement and joy experience
with singing in a choir, as wellas inform and educate the
listener on all things singingand all things choir.
We encourage you to subscribeto the podcast by sending the
(00:58):
word subscribe to the Choir Roomat MetroMusic-Artscom, or you
can subscribe anywhere youlisten to podcasts and then do
us a favor while you're thereLeave us a five-star review,
leave us your comments and sharewith a friend that you're in
the Choir Room.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Welcome to the Choir Room.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
We are now into the fall season and there's some
things in the planning withMetro Music and Arts, and the
Choir Room specifically, thatwe'd like to keep you informed
about and have you participatedNow.
The first one is a monthlyevent that we've been working on
for some time now.
That's going to afford you anopportunity to come together for
singing, connection andfellowship.
(01:39):
It's going to be a very specialtime and you can look forward
to getting more informationabout participation if you are
subscribed to this podcast.
Secondly, be on the lookout forthe upcoming Choir Room theme
song contest.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Welcome to the Choir Room.
What I'm on the lookout.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Now that's just part of it.
You can hear the full versionat the top of this podcast.
Now, what started out as aregional call to just a few
choirs to record the theme song,it has blossomed into somewhat
of a national reach now thatwe're getting responses from
people around the country andwe're glad to report that we've
got a couple of sponsors anddonors who have made this
somewhat of a contest, and sothere will be prizes and gifts
(02:21):
for the best recordings of theChoir Room theme song.
If you want to stay in the know, you have to subscribe to the
Choir Room at metromusic-artscom.
And then, finally, if you liketo sing and you like to learn
and you like to have fun doingit, mark your calendars.
From Monday, october 16th at 7PM right here in the Choir Room,
(02:42):
vocal coach and YouTubesensation and a dear friend of
mine, tara Simon, with TaraSimon Studios, will be joining
us again right here in the ChoirRoom with live demonstration,
live evaluation and vocal tipsfor all of our Choir Room
listeners.
That's what's coming up in thenext few weeks.
Now let's hear another tip fromDavid and Elizabeth Norfrey.
(03:02):
David, talk to us about theparallels and the similarities
that you've discovered betweenthe Handbell Choir and the Vocal
Choir.
Speaker 5 (03:11):
There are over seven octaves of handbells in
existence and so we're rivalingalmost the piano keyboard.
And so where you can, with twohands and your brain tuned into
the Holy Spirit, can cover allthose 88 keys and lead us from
(03:34):
one person's brain and body.
But this is an instrument thattakes more people, so you have
to have at least usually nine ormore.
It's a different experiencethan a vocal choir, but it
requires all the same kinds oflistening and willingness to
(03:59):
work together and no grandstandstars, because everybody's got
to work together.
So if you can imagine playingyour melody of Amazing Grace or
whatever, even to play themelody, you cannot do that with
one person.
So the melody of Amazing Gracehas to cover several people's
(04:24):
positions at the table.
So even to play just the melodyrequires cooperation, it
requires willingness, itrequires listening, it requires
and which note is more importantwhich one gets a little more
emphasis.
Well, if the wrong personemphasizes, it sounds like we're
(04:45):
emphasis on the wrong syllable.
So it's just an amazing teambuilding kind of experience and
if everybody's willing it can bejust an amazing experience and
we'll see you next time, youknow.
But then you have challenges,like somebody leaves, the group,
(05:07):
moves away, then you have tobring in a new person and you
have to get them up to speed.
You know, and it takes a while,it's a team, it's a team sport.
We started sharing about thisidea of the body of Christ, the
church being the body of Christ,and and the idea out of first
(05:27):
Corinthians 12, where we're inone body but we have many
members, and so the bell choirwas a perfect example of that,
because if one person isn'tthere, you can't play in peace.
So a lot of time, you know howoften is everybody there, I mean
(05:52):
honestly, right.
So the director is almost alwayscovering somebody's spot and
that you can do.
You can kind of cover oneperson spot and keep the group
together.
But if two people are missingyou're kind of up a creek
because you know you can't covereverything.
(06:12):
I mean I would try to directand they were on the other side
of the table and I would have afew bells of the people that
were missing.
I'd have them in front of meand I was trying to cover, you
know, and listen and everything.
But it doesn't work.
You have to have everybody.
It's.
It's not like a section whereyou know you have 10 altos and
(06:34):
two are missing.
Of course you notice it'simportant, but it's not
important in the same way.
It's like the fact that it'sjust not there anymore.
So we would go out and we woulddo, we would share that and
share how you know each memberof the body is important.
So we that became our kind ofour kind of witness, or a
(06:58):
tagline, you know, is that thatwe would always do that as part,
and the way I would do it wasI'd have somebody step out so
I'd say, ok, let's, we're goingto play them.
Here's the melody.
So we play it the way it was,and then we'd have a person step
out here's the melody withoutthat person, and of course
people noticed something'smissing.
(07:20):
And then let's put two peoplestep out, and of course you know
, after a while it becomes, youknow, kind of like a piano with,
all you know, five broken keyswhere you can't you can't
actually play the melody at allanyway.
So it was.
It was a great, great tool.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
I think different people in the choir have
different roles, differentpurposes.
Like some, somebody may be afantastic site reader, but
somebody may just have a reallybeautiful, strong voice but not
be that strong a site reader butjust be vocally strong.
Somebody may be so faithfulthat they're just a model,
example person, and so everybody, like you said, everybody's
(08:02):
important.
And you know, over the yearsI've seen that people have their
, their different roles and, andthis first, corinthians 12, is
just so important, you know thehand can't say the thing I don't
need.
You.
You know and and and even likeit says the hidden parts are
(08:22):
important to in the passage andyou know.
So sometimes, even likesomebody who's the weakest
singer may be like a prayerwarrior, really powerful
community glue, you know.
So it's just a, it's afascinating thing.
You know just the unseen.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Welcome to the.
The hymn's amazing grace.
This hymn has been translatedinto countless languages and by
(09:00):
one biographers account and Icannot confirm this.
But they actually said thatthis hymn is sung 10 million
times annually and if weconsider all of the different
venues that this hymn is sung in, both in the church as well as
in secular circles, it's quitepossible that it is sung that
(09:23):
many times.
But as we consider thistimeless hymn, we would be amiss
if we didn't consider thetestimony of its writer.
Although he was born into aChristian home, john Newton
lived a life of sin as a sailorand eventually even became a
slave trader.
Near drowning experience thathe had as his ship was in danger
(09:44):
when he was in his earlytwenties factored into his
conversion and six years laterhe gave up the slave trade and
would eventually join forceswith William Wilberforce to end
the English slave trade, whichbecame a reality in 1807.
He became a pastor and famouslywas a caretaker for William
(10:06):
Cooper, whose hymns we havelooked at previously and will
look at in the future as well.
But this hymn parallels the arcof what we hear in Titus,
chapter 2, verses 11-13, whichtakes us from justification at
conversion to sanctificationthrough to glorification.
This is what Titus 2, 11-13says, for the grace of God has
(10:31):
appeared, bringing salvation forall people, training us to
renounce ungodliness and worldlypassions and to live
self-controlled, upright andgodly lives.
In the present age, waiting forour blessed hope, the appearing
of the glory of our great Godand Savior, jesus Christ, who
gave himself for us to redeem usfrom all lawlessness and to
(10:55):
purify for himself a people forhis own possession or a zealous
for good works.
And we see that sameprogression when we look at the
arc of this hymn.
We go from conversion to thesanctifying or progressive work
that God does in each of ourlives, through to glorification.
(11:16):
We see conversion depicted inthe first two verses, where
we're told amazing grace.
How sweet the sound that saveda wretch like me.
When we think of the grace ofGod, it cannot be truly amazing
unless we realize howundeserving of it we are.
We are all wretches.
(11:38):
All mankind is unworthy ofanything but God's condemnation.
And yet the one who was lostwas found, the one who was blind
was made to see, and that samegrace that taught us to fear God
is the same grace that relievedour fears, as the salvation
(12:01):
that only comes through Christwas made known to us and applied
to our lives effectively by theHoly Spirit, and we know that
once we start living theChristian life, we are not
promised an easy life.
We're told in verses three andfour of the many dangers and
toils and snares that we face asChristians.
(12:24):
But the grace of God has notonly kept us but promised us to
bring us to the expected endthat God has for us.
And it's not an expected endthat we are not aware of, for
God's Word tells us that God isconforming us to the image of
(12:45):
his Son and that until he bringsus to that place, he will
preserve his people.
Then, finally, in verses fiveand six, we are reminded of the
fact that we all must face death, and verse five says yes, when
this flesh and heart shall failand mortal life shall cease, I
(13:05):
shall possess within the veil alife of joy and peace.
For the Christian, to be absentfrom the body is to be present
with the Lord.
To be absent from the body isto enter in to the blessedness
of our Lord and Savior.
And then, in verse six, we arepointed to the eternal state
(13:28):
when we and millions of othersand billions of others will be
around the throne worshiping Godand listen to the poency of
this last verse.
When we've been there 10,000years, bright shining as the sun
, we've no less days to singGod's praise than when we first
(13:49):
begun.
The amazing grace of God willtake eternity for us to praise,
and the 10,000 year, the10,000th year that we praise him
for his grace, will be just thebeginning of the praise that he
is worthy of.
We're reminded of that greatgrace Ephesians two, eight
(14:13):
through nine which tells us forby grace, you have been saved
through faith, and this is notyour own doing.
It is the gift of God, not aresult of works, so that no one
may boast.
We can boast of nothing but thegrace of our God, and we thank
him for his amazing grace, shownin bringing us to himself by
(14:38):
the finished work of Christ, ofmaking us more like Christ each
and every day, and of theblessed hope and the promise
that we will indeed spend all ofeternity with him, when we
either die and go home to bewith him, or when Christ returns
triumphantly.
Let us praise God's amazinggrace.
Speaker 6 (15:00):
Did you just teach me a new verse to Amazing Grace a
second ago?
Speaker 5 (15:06):
Because there was one that I don't think I'd ever
heard before.
Speaker 6 (15:09):
Oh, really, maybe the third one or something, I don't
know, not through many dangers.
No, I've heard that one, it wasbefore that there's also.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
The Lord has promised good to me as word.
My hope secures.
You know that one.
And then there's yes, when thisflesh and heart shall fail and
my life shall cease.
Never heard that one before.
I shall possess within the veila life of joy and peace.
Wow.
Speaker 6 (15:35):
Well, I've got my redback hymnal right here.
I'm going to pull it out andsee if that's in there.
You think I'm lying?
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Check and see if you were cheating?
Speaker 6 (15:47):
I'll see.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Yeah, I got cheated.
Now you won't find it in everyhymnal, but typically in the
Methodist and or thePresbyterian hymnal.
Speaker 6 (15:58):
Yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
And typically not in the Baptist hymnal yeah, the
Trinity hymnal, revised edition.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yep, so, coleman is it in there?
Speaker 6 (16:08):
Oh, no, no, no, we don't have that.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
So you should add it.
Speaker 6 (16:14):
You should add it.
Yeah, this is a closed cannon.
Okay, exactly.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
It's something to your team Right.
Tell them you're going to do iton Sunday.
Speaker 6 (16:26):
Yeah, and they're going to be like what?
Speaker 4 (16:34):
So here we are again this evening with our CRQ, and
the CRQ is this what is youropinion about the church choir
changing the lyrics to a popularpop song and singing them in
church?
My short answer Negative,negative.
(17:01):
And I can say that because Itried that and it fell flat.
And I do mean flat.
I regret it to this very dayBack in the 90s, when I don't
(17:23):
know if any of you even knowthis, but in the 90s it was
somewhat of a popular thing totake some of the pop songs and
incorporate them in some of ourgospel music.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
And so gospel has done some really tragic stuff
over the years.
Speaker 4 (17:45):
And that is the very word I use today because of it.
And in it did that you notnecessarily with a Sunday
morning type setting.
We did that for our specialthings like choir anniversaries.
So we would do somethingspecial, like I remember
remember the time MichaelJackson remember the time while
(18:05):
actually I can't remember hisname, bell, he actually wrote
that Well, he was a part of thecreative process of that we took
that song and made it ourmarching song.
You're marching song now andyou're probably thinking, well,
what exactly is a marching song?
Well, the marching song was thechoir, the host choir, the
(18:31):
honorees of the evening, withmarching that night and sing a
song.
And it was a big thing, the bigthing that we would do.
And I changed, I didn't thinkit through and I let someone
talk me into changing some ofthe lyrics to that song.
Yeah, it just just man in themirror.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
No, no, remember the time.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Oh, remember the time .
Speaker 4 (18:59):
I was remember Weird right, I'm trying to.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
You have to have been to enough anniversaries and
special events where there areprocessionals to even understand
why that?
Was why the attempt.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
And it was more musical than it was lyrical it
was.
It was just a lot of musicinvolved in a few lyrics.
That would it just negative itjust.
And I never did it.
I never did it again and I hadto learn as time went on that
when you do things like that youdon't realize what you're doing
.
You could be messing with theintegrity of gospel music when
(19:39):
you start to do things like that.
So you have to be very, very,very careful, even with hymns.
I've seen people change lyricsto hymns to fit.
If you have to do things likethat, then perhaps use another
song, find the selection thatwill best fit and suit whatever
(20:01):
the occasion or the moment maycall for, because you know I
doing things like that for me,for me it just messes with the
integrity a lot of time.
So what say you?
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Well, I think it's a definite no.
I agree with me.
There's no way that you canthink that changing the lyrics
to a popular pop song andbringing it to a worship service
is going to minister to thehearts of the people or touch
the heart of God, especiallywhen you consider the fact that
(20:36):
this is a popular pop song andeverybody who listens to pop
music is going to recognize it.
And so there's no way that wecan convince ourselves that
superimposing the name of God orJesus over that content is
going to change the meaning ofthe song.
That song is going to soundlike and mean what it always
(20:56):
meant to the listener when theyfirst heard it.
Now they'll definitely receivesome level of entertainment out
of it, but that doesn't minister.
And then, finally, my concernis that if the choir director is
going to continue to try tograb that which is considered
unholy or ungodly and try tograft it into the church
experience, it doesn't compelmany women to want to come to
(21:18):
the house of God because itstarts to look, feel, sound,
smell like what they're alreadydoing.
And so if the church housesounds like the clubhouse, why
leave the clubhouse.
Speaker 6 (21:31):
So I think that more often than not, when churches do
try to do something like this,it tends to be more corny or
cringy than they anticipated itbeing, and it's a little
embarrassing, yeah, cheesy, andso I think that ends up hurting
(21:52):
you more than it helps you.
Second, when you sing a songfrom a pop artist or any kind of
artist like that kind of likewhat you were just saying, greg,
it's almost like an endorsementof that in a way, because,
you're right, people arethinking about that the whole
(22:12):
time.
And then, lastly, there are somany songs out there in
Christendom that you couldchoose from that, communicate
the same message and probably doit in a more clear, concise and
God-centered way, like it waswritten for the purpose of, you
(22:32):
know, accomplishing that goal.
So I don't think that we haveto go there because we have so
many options, but I mean onethought that I do have that's
not completely negative about itis I've seen some churches do
some special things on on a daylike Father's Day, for instance,
(22:56):
I've heard a church that I oncewas at for a while do a special
song that was like a tribute todad's.
That was actually aninspirational song and it wasn't
meant for worship, it was likean inspirational moment and the
thing and it was not like one ofthose really questionable
(23:19):
morality like artists kind ofsituations.
So I've seen that kind of thingwork and accomplish a purpose
outside of the confines ofworship and trying to encounter
God.
You know what I mean.
So I can see that kind ofworking, but if you're trying to
(23:40):
use it in a worship set orsomething like that, I'm gonna
err on the side of no as well.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Well, because it, because it doesn't minister
Doing ministry, and then it'sanother thing just be singing a
song, like you said.
You know that example.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I probably to thesurprise of no one here
immediately said no, but butthen I thought, really really
quickly, because there are hymnsthat are to the music it's true
of classical music that aren'tso a Christian.
(24:18):
So take a hymn like be still mysoul.
That's typically sung to thetune of Sibelius's in land, yeah
right.
There are other tunes that werewritten by by Composers who
weren't Christians that are used.
I think the key here is lyricsto songs that have already been
(24:38):
written.
Exactly, and we're living inthis age of technology where
we've got recordings, yes,modern day ones, right, and so
these were just pieces of musicupon which these lyrics were
placed.
So it's what's in the lyricsthat are the focus, and people
may know that particular tune,but I have a Qbq what's the
(25:03):
question behind the question?
Because what is the motive whenwe are doing that?
Yeah, when you're takingPopular music, secular music,
and changing the lyrics to adaptthem to a church setting and
the apostle Paul Admonishes theCorinthians for relying upon
(25:25):
worldly wisdom, bringing theworld's thoughts, the world's
ideas, all of those things, intothe church.
And I would say that the motiveoften for doing that is
Relevancy.
It's to make oneself seemrelevant, to make oneself seem
like we know where certainpeople are.
(25:45):
But ultimately, church is forthe church right.
Church is for the church.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
That's good that right there.
That's really good.
And on that note of this week'sCRQ, thanks to Horia, mia and
Coleman and to our listeners.
Be reminded of theannouncements made earlier in
this podcast and remember ifever we put the messenger before
the message, we have failed topresent an unblemished gospel.
I'm Greg Thomas.
Join us again next week righthere in the choir room.
(26:14):
You.
Welcome to the choir room, season 1, episode 24 of
the Choir Room podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Welcome to the choir room.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
I'm Greg Thomas, your host, and I'll soon be joined
by my co-hosts, Dorian Johnson.
Welcome to the choir room,mietta Stansel-Farrar, and who
we like to call the fourth wheel, coleman Smart.
This podcast has a productionof Metro Music and Arts, whose
purpose is to perpetuate andpromote the Christian and
positive idea through the mediumof music and other arts.
(00:34):
This podcast exists to promoteand encourage two longtime
traditions in our society thatseem to be dwindling away, and
that is choir and corporatesinging.
We hope to revive theexcitement and joy experience
with singing in a choir, as wellas inform and educate the
listener on all things singingand all things choir.
We encourage you to subscribeto the podcast by sending the
(00:58):
word subscribe to the Choir Roomat MetroMusic-Artscom, or you
can subscribe anywhere youlisten to podcasts and then do
us a favor while you're thereLeave us a five-star review,
leave us your comments and sharewith a friend that you're in
the Choir Room.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Welcome to the Choir Room.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
We are now into the fall season and there's some
things in the planning withMetro Music and Arts, and the
Choir Room specifically, thatwe'd like to keep you informed
about and have you participatedNow.
The first one is a monthlyevent that we've been working on
for some time now.
That's going to afford you anopportunity to come together for
singing, connection andfellowship.
(01:39):
It's going to be a very specialtime and you can look forward
to getting more informationabout participation if you are
subscribed to this podcast.
Secondly, be on the lookout forthe upcoming Choir Room theme
song contest.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Welcome to the Choir Room.
What I'm on the lookout.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Now that's just part of it.
You can hear the full versionat the top of this podcast.
Now, what started out as aregional call to just a few
choirs to record the theme song,it has blossomed into somewhat
of a national reach now thatwe're getting responses from
people around the country andwe're glad to report that we've
got a couple of sponsors anddonors who have made this
somewhat of a contest, and sothere will be prizes and gifts
(02:21):
for the best recordings of theChoir Room theme song.
If you want to stay in the know, you have to subscribe to the
Choir Room at metromusic-artscom.
And then, finally, if you liketo sing and you like to learn
and you like to have fun doingit, mark your calendars.
From Monday, october 16th at 7PM right here in the Choir Room,
(02:42):
vocal coach and YouTubesensation and a dear friend of
mine, tara Simon, with TaraSimon Studios, will be joining
us again right here in the ChoirRoom with live demonstration,
live evaluation and vocal tipsfor all of our Choir Room
listeners.
That's what's coming up in thenext few weeks.
Now let's hear another tip fromDavid and Elizabeth Norfrey.
(03:02):
David, talk to us about theparallels and the similarities
that you've discovered betweenthe Handbell Choir and the Vocal
Choir.
Speaker 5 (03:11):
There are over seven octaves of handbells in
existence and so we're rivalingalmost the piano keyboard.
And so where you can, with twohands and your brain tuned into
the Holy Spirit, can cover allthose 88 keys and lead us from
(03:34):
one person's brain and body.
But this is an instrument thattakes more people, so you have
to have at least usually nine ormore.
It's a different experiencethan a vocal choir, but it
requires all the same kinds oflistening and willingness to
(03:59):
work together and no grandstandstars, because everybody's got
to work together.
So if you can imagine playingyour melody of Amazing Grace or
whatever, even to play themelody, you cannot do that with
one person.
So the melody of Amazing Gracehas to cover several people's
(04:24):
positions at the table.
So even to play just the melodyrequires cooperation, it
requires willingness, itrequires listening, it requires
and which note is more importantwhich one gets a little more
emphasis.
Well, if the wrong personemphasizes, it sounds like we're
(04:45):
emphasis on the wrong syllable.
So it's just an amazing teambuilding kind of experience and
if everybody's willing it can bejust an amazing experience and
we'll see you next time, youknow.
But then you have challenges,like somebody leaves, the group,
(05:07):
moves away, then you have tobring in a new person and you
have to get them up to speed.
You know, and it takes a while,it's a team, it's a team sport.
We started sharing about thisidea of the body of Christ, the
church being the body of Christ,and and the idea out of first
(05:27):
Corinthians 12, where we're inone body but we have many
members, and so the bell choirwas a perfect example of that,
because if one person isn'tthere, you can't play in peace.
So a lot of time, you know howoften is everybody there, I mean
(05:52):
honestly, right.
So the director is almost alwayscovering somebody's spot and
that you can do.
You can kind of cover oneperson spot and keep the group
together.
But if two people are missingyou're kind of up a creek
because you know you can't covereverything.
(06:12):
I mean I would try to directand they were on the other side
of the table and I would have afew bells of the people that
were missing.
I'd have them in front of meand I was trying to cover, you
know, and listen and everything.
But it doesn't work.
You have to have everybody.
It's.
It's not like a section whereyou know you have 10 altos and
(06:34):
two are missing.
Of course you notice it'simportant, but it's not
important in the same way.
It's like the fact that it'sjust not there anymore.
So we would go out and we woulddo, we would share that and
share how you know each memberof the body is important.
So we that became our kind ofour kind of witness, or a
(06:58):
tagline, you know, is that thatwe would always do that as part,
and the way I would do it wasI'd have somebody step out so
I'd say, ok, let's, we're goingto play them.
Here's the melody.
So we play it the way it was,and then we'd have a person step
out here's the melody withoutthat person, and of course
people noticed something'smissing.
(07:20):
And then let's put two peoplestep out, and of course you know
, after a while it becomes, youknow, kind of like a piano with,
all you know, five broken keyswhere you can't you can't
actually play the melody at allanyway.
So it was.
It was a great, great tool.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
I think different people in the choir have
different roles, differentpurposes.
Like some, somebody may be afantastic site reader, but
somebody may just have a reallybeautiful, strong voice but not
be that strong a site reader butjust be vocally strong.
Somebody may be so faithfulthat they're just a model,
example person, and so everybody, like you said, everybody's
(08:02):
important.
And you know, over the yearsI've seen that people have their
, their different roles and, andthis first, corinthians 12, is
just so important, you know thehand can't say the thing I don't
need.
You.
You know and and and even likeit says the hidden parts are
(08:22):
important to in the passage andyou know.
So sometimes, even likesomebody who's the weakest
singer may be like a prayerwarrior, really powerful
community glue, you know.
So it's just a, it's afascinating thing.
You know just the unseen.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Welcome to the.
The hymn's amazing grace.
This hymn has been translatedinto countless languages and by
(09:00):
one biographers account and Icannot confirm this.
But they actually said thatthis hymn is sung 10 million
times annually and if weconsider all of the different
venues that this hymn is sung in, both in the church as well as
in secular circles, it's quitepossible that it is sung that
(09:23):
many times.
But as we consider thistimeless hymn, we would be amiss
if we didn't consider thetestimony of its writer.
Although he was born into aChristian home, john Newton
lived a life of sin as a sailorand eventually even became a
slave trader.
Near drowning experience thathe had as his ship was in danger
(09:44):
when he was in his earlytwenties factored into his
conversion and six years laterhe gave up the slave trade and
would eventually join forceswith William Wilberforce to end
the English slave trade, whichbecame a reality in 1807.
He became a pastor and famouslywas a caretaker for William
(10:06):
Cooper, whose hymns we havelooked at previously and will
look at in the future as well.
But this hymn parallels the arcof what we hear in Titus,
chapter 2, verses 11-13, whichtakes us from justification at
conversion to sanctificationthrough to glorification.
This is what Titus 2, 11-13says, for the grace of God has
(10:31):
appeared, bringing salvation forall people, training us to
renounce ungodliness and worldlypassions and to live
self-controlled, upright andgodly lives.
In the present age, waiting forour blessed hope, the appearing
of the glory of our great Godand Savior, jesus Christ, who
gave himself for us to redeem usfrom all lawlessness and to
(10:55):
purify for himself a people forhis own possession or a zealous
for good works.
And we see that sameprogression when we look at the
arc of this hymn.
We go from conversion to thesanctifying or progressive work
that God does in each of ourlives, through to glorification.
(11:16):
We see conversion depicted inthe first two verses, where
we're told amazing grace.
How sweet the sound that saveda wretch like me.
When we think of the grace ofGod, it cannot be truly amazing
unless we realize howundeserving of it we are.
We are all wretches.
(11:38):
All mankind is unworthy ofanything but God's condemnation.
And yet the one who was lostwas found, the one who was blind
was made to see, and that samegrace that taught us to fear God
is the same grace that relievedour fears, as the salvation
(12:01):
that only comes through Christwas made known to us and applied
to our lives effectively by theHoly Spirit, and we know that
once we start living theChristian life, we are not
promised an easy life.
We're told in verses three andfour of the many dangers and
toils and snares that we face asChristians.
(12:24):
But the grace of God has notonly kept us but promised us to
bring us to the expected endthat God has for us.
And it's not an expected endthat we are not aware of, for
God's Word tells us that God isconforming us to the image of
(12:45):
his Son and that until he bringsus to that place, he will
preserve his people.
Then, finally, in verses fiveand six, we are reminded of the
fact that we all must face death, and verse five says yes, when
this flesh and heart shall failand mortal life shall cease, I
(13:05):
shall possess within the veil alife of joy and peace.
For the Christian, to be absentfrom the body is to be present
with the Lord.
To be absent from the body isto enter in to the blessedness
of our Lord and Savior.
And then, in verse six, we arepointed to the eternal state
(13:28):
when we and millions of othersand billions of others will be
around the throne worshiping Godand listen to the poency of
this last verse.
When we've been there 10,000years, bright shining as the sun
, we've no less days to singGod's praise than when we first
(13:49):
begun.
The amazing grace of God willtake eternity for us to praise,
and the 10,000 year, the10,000th year that we praise him
for his grace, will be just thebeginning of the praise that he
is worthy of.
We're reminded of that greatgrace Ephesians two, eight
(14:13):
through nine which tells us forby grace, you have been saved
through faith, and this is notyour own doing.
It is the gift of God, not aresult of works, so that no one
may boast.
We can boast of nothing but thegrace of our God, and we thank
him for his amazing grace, shownin bringing us to himself by
(14:38):
the finished work of Christ, ofmaking us more like Christ each
and every day, and of theblessed hope and the promise
that we will indeed spend all ofeternity with him, when we
either die and go home to bewith him, or when Christ returns
triumphantly.
Let us praise God's amazinggrace.
Speaker 6 (15:00):
Did you just teach me a new verse to Amazing Grace a
second ago?
Speaker 5 (15:06):
Because there was one that I don't think I'd ever
heard before.
Speaker 6 (15:09):
Oh, really, maybe the third one or something, I don't
know, not through many dangers.
No, I've heard that one, it wasbefore that there's also.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
The Lord has promised good to me as word.
My hope secures.
You know that one.
And then there's yes, when thisflesh and heart shall fail and
my life shall cease.
Never heard that one before.
I shall possess within the veila life of joy and peace.
Wow.
Speaker 6 (15:35):
Well, I've got my redback hymnal right here.
I'm going to pull it out andsee if that's in there.
You think I'm lying?
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Check and see if you were cheating?
Speaker 6 (15:47):
I'll see.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Yeah, I got cheated.
Now you won't find it in everyhymnal, but typically in the
Methodist and or thePresbyterian hymnal.
Speaker 6 (15:58):
Yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
And typically not in the Baptist hymnal yeah, the
Trinity hymnal, revised edition.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yep, so, coleman is it in there?
Speaker 6 (16:08):
Oh, no, no, no, we don't have that.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
So you should add it.
Speaker 6 (16:14):
You should add it.
Yeah, this is a closed cannon.
Okay, exactly.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
It's something to your team Right.
Tell them you're going to do iton Sunday.
Speaker 6 (16:26):
Yeah, and they're going to be like what?
Speaker 4 (16:34):
So here we are again this evening with our CRQ, and
the CRQ is this what is youropinion about the church choir
changing the lyrics to a popularpop song and singing them in
church?
My short answer Negative,negative.
(17:01):
And I can say that because Itried that and it fell flat.
And I do mean flat.
I regret it to this very dayBack in the 90s, when I don't
(17:23):
know if any of you even knowthis, but in the 90s it was
somewhat of a popular thing totake some of the pop songs and
incorporate them in some of ourgospel music.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
And so gospel has done some really tragic stuff
over the years.
Speaker 4 (17:45):
And that is the very word I use today because of it.
And in it did that you notnecessarily with a Sunday
morning type setting.
We did that for our specialthings like choir anniversaries.
So we would do somethingspecial, like I remember
remember the time MichaelJackson remember the time while
(18:05):
actually I can't remember hisname, bell, he actually wrote
that Well, he was a part of thecreative process of that we took
that song and made it ourmarching song.
You're marching song now andyou're probably thinking, well,
what exactly is a marching song?
Well, the marching song was thechoir, the host choir, the
(18:31):
honorees of the evening, withmarching that night and sing a
song.
And it was a big thing, the bigthing that we would do.
And I changed, I didn't thinkit through and I let someone
talk me into changing some ofthe lyrics to that song.
Yeah, it just just man in themirror.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
No, no, remember the time.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Oh, remember the time .
Speaker 4 (18:59):
I was remember Weird right, I'm trying to.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
You have to have been to enough anniversaries and
special events where there areprocessionals to even understand
why that?
Was why the attempt.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
And it was more musical than it was lyrical it
was.
It was just a lot of musicinvolved in a few lyrics.
That would it just negative itjust.
And I never did it.
I never did it again and I hadto learn as time went on that
when you do things like that youdon't realize what you're doing
.
You could be messing with theintegrity of gospel music when
(19:39):
you start to do things like that.
So you have to be very, very,very careful, even with hymns.
I've seen people change lyricsto hymns to fit.
If you have to do things likethat, then perhaps use another
song, find the selection thatwill best fit and suit whatever
(20:01):
the occasion or the moment maycall for, because you know I
doing things like that for me,for me it just messes with the
integrity a lot of time.
So what say you?
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Well, I think it's a definite no.
I agree with me.
There's no way that you canthink that changing the lyrics
to a popular pop song andbringing it to a worship service
is going to minister to thehearts of the people or touch
the heart of God, especiallywhen you consider the fact that
(20:36):
this is a popular pop song andeverybody who listens to pop
music is going to recognize it.
And so there's no way that wecan convince ourselves that
superimposing the name of God orJesus over that content is
going to change the meaning ofthe song.
That song is going to soundlike and mean what it always
(20:56):
meant to the listener when theyfirst heard it.
Now they'll definitely receivesome level of entertainment out
of it, but that doesn't minister.
And then, finally, my concernis that if the choir director is
going to continue to try tograb that which is considered
unholy or ungodly and try tograft it into the church
experience, it doesn't compelmany women to want to come to
(21:18):
the house of God because itstarts to look, feel, sound,
smell like what they're alreadydoing.
And so if the church housesounds like the clubhouse, why
leave the clubhouse.
Speaker 6 (21:31):
So I think that more often than not, when churches do
try to do something like this,it tends to be more corny or
cringy than they anticipated itbeing, and it's a little
embarrassing, yeah, cheesy, andso I think that ends up hurting
(21:52):
you more than it helps you.
Second, when you sing a songfrom a pop artist or any kind of
artist like that kind of likewhat you were just saying, greg,
it's almost like an endorsementof that in a way, because,
you're right, people arethinking about that the whole
(22:12):
time.
And then, lastly, there are somany songs out there in
Christendom that you couldchoose from that, communicate
the same message and probably doit in a more clear, concise and
God-centered way, like it waswritten for the purpose of, you
(22:32):
know, accomplishing that goal.
So I don't think that we haveto go there because we have so
many options, but I mean onethought that I do have that's
not completely negative about itis I've seen some churches do
some special things on on a daylike Father's Day, for instance,
(22:56):
I've heard a church that I oncewas at for a while do a special
song that was like a tribute todad's.
That was actually aninspirational song and it wasn't
meant for worship, it was likean inspirational moment and the
thing and it was not like one ofthose really questionable
(23:19):
morality like artists kind ofsituations.
So I've seen that kind of thingwork and accomplish a purpose
outside of the confines ofworship and trying to encounter
God.
You know what I mean.
So I can see that kind ofworking, but if you're trying to
(23:40):
use it in a worship set orsomething like that, I'm gonna
err on the side of no as well.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Well, because it, because it doesn't minister
Doing ministry, and then it'sanother thing just be singing a
song, like you said.
You know that example.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I probably to thesurprise of no one here
immediately said no, but butthen I thought, really really
quickly, because there are hymnsthat are to the music it's true
of classical music that aren'tso a Christian.
(24:18):
So take a hymn like be still mysoul.
That's typically sung to thetune of Sibelius's in land, yeah
right.
There are other tunes that werewritten by by Composers who
weren't Christians that are used.
I think the key here is lyricsto songs that have already been
(24:38):
written.
Exactly, and we're living inthis age of technology where
we've got recordings, yes,modern day ones, right, and so
these were just pieces of musicupon which these lyrics were
placed.
So it's what's in the lyricsthat are the focus, and people
may know that particular tune,but I have a Qbq what's the
(25:03):
question behind the question?
Because what is the motive whenwe are doing that?
Yeah, when you're takingPopular music, secular music,
and changing the lyrics to adaptthem to a church setting and
the apostle Paul Admonishes theCorinthians for relying upon
(25:25):
worldly wisdom, bringing theworld's thoughts, the world's
ideas, all of those things, intothe church.
And I would say that the motiveoften for doing that is
Relevancy.
It's to make oneself seemrelevant, to make oneself seem
like we know where certainpeople are.
(25:45):
But ultimately, church is forthe church right.
Church is for the church.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
That's good that right there.
That's really good.
And on that note of this week'sCRQ, thanks to Horia, mia and
Coleman and to our listeners.
Be reminded of theannouncements made earlier in
this podcast and remember ifever we put the messenger before
the message, we have failed topresent an unblemished gospel.
I'm Greg Thomas.
Join us again next week righthere in the choir room.
(26:14):
You.
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