There is no single way of conducting a successful choir rehearsal. Unlock some of the secrets to conducting effective choir rehearsals with insights from seasoned choir directors and their friends, Ben and Renee Westry, music directors at the Full Gospel Interdenominational Church. Ben and Renee discuss their journey from being young musicians in their church to becoming influential leaders in their music ministry.
Join Greg Thomas, along with co-hosts Dorian Johnson and Mietta Stansil-Farrar, as they share best practices for managing church choir and band dynamics. Then, learn about the hymn of the week, "My Hope is Built on Nothing Less," as Dorian delves into its deep theological roots and scriptural connections. Mietta will also lead the group as they tackle listener questions on coordinating combined rehearsals, stressing the value of holding separate sessions for choirs and bands to ensure a focused practice environment.
Laugh along with us as we recount the humorous antics of musicians who just can’t resist tinkering with their instruments during rehearsals. We'll also explore the strategic benefits of separating choir and band rehearsals to minimize distractions and highlight the disciplined efforts needed for special events like Christmas and Resurrection Sunday. We discuss some of the nuts and bolts of managing a church band and choir, from early planning and song selection to using digital tools for efficient preparation.
As we close, reflect on the importance of prioritizing the message over the messenger and join us in celebrating the timeless traditions of the church choir and corporate singing. Don’t forget to subscribe, like, and share the Choir Room Podcast to keep these insightful conversations going!
Perpetuating and Promoting the Christian and Positive Idea Through the Medium of Music and Other Arts.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Choir Room.
This is episode 39 of the ChoirRoom Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome to the Choir.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Room.
I'm Greg Thomas, your host, andI'll soon be joined by my
co-hosts, Dorian Johnson Welcometo the Choir Room and Mietta
Stansil-Farrar.
This podcast exists to promoteand encourage two longtime
traditions in our society thatseem to be dwindling away, and
(00:31):
that is choir and corporatesinging, and we hope to revive
the excitement and joyexperienced with singing in a
choir, as well as inform andeducate the listener on all
things singing and all thingschoir.
And this podcast is aproduction of Metro Music and
Arts, whose purpose is toperpetuate and promote the
Christian and positive ideathrough the medium of music and
(00:52):
other arts.
Now, there is no one single wayto conduct a choir rehearsal or
conduct a choir in your churchservices.
Today, we discuss some of thesebest practices as we continue
with our focus on the churchchoir during this season.
We are joined by husband andwife team choir director and
music director of the FullGospel Interdenominational
(01:23):
Church in Manchester,Connecticut.
Husband and wife team, Mr andMrs, Ben and Renee Westry.
Now that's a little clip fromtheir choir rehearsal and we're
going to talk to them abouttheir best practices in a little
bit, but before they come,Dorian is going to give us our
hymn of the week.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Thanks, greg, us in a little bit, but before they
come, dorian is going to give usour hymn of the week.
Thanks, greg.
This week's hymn of the week ismy Hope is Built on Nothing.
Less In 1834, edward Mote wasreported to be walking along and
thought to himself to write ahymn on the gracious experience
of a Christian, and from thatthought came this hymn that we
(02:08):
sing all throughout the worldtoday.
This hymn reminds me of variousportions of Scripture.
We read in Psalm 40, verse 2, Iwaited patiently for the Lord.
He inclined to me and heard mycry.
He drew me up from the pit ofdestruction, out of the miry bog
, and set my feet upon a rock,making my steps secure.
(02:34):
Then we hear the words ofChrist at the end of the Sermon
on the Mount in Matthew 7,verses 24 and 25, where he says
Everyone then, who hears thesewords of mine and does them will
be like a wise man who builthis house on the rock.
And the rain fell and thefloods came and the winds blew
(02:56):
and beat on that house, but itdid not fall because it had been
founded on the rock.
Because it had been founded onthe rock.
This great hymn is so full ofrich theology, pointing us to
all that Christ has gained forus in his atoning death and in
his perfect life gaining for usforgiveness of sins and gaining
(03:20):
for us also a perfectrighteousness before the Father.
Familiar verses read in verse 1, my hope is built on nothing
less than Jesus' blood andrighteousness.
I dare not trust the sweetestframe but wholly lean on Jesus'
name.
We're reminded that theChristian goes through various
(03:42):
trials and difficultcircumstances, but despite those
circumstances, christ is stillwith us, and we hear that in
verse 2.
When we sing, when darknessveils his lovely face, I rest on
his unchanging grace.
In every high and stormy gale,my anchor holds within the veil.
(04:04):
In stormy gale, my anchor holdswithin the veil.
Verse 3 reminds us of God'sgreat faithfulness to who he is,
of his covenant with his people, the covenant that was sealed
with the blood of Christ, as weread in Jude 24, which says Now
(04:39):
to him who is able to keep youfrom stumbling and to present
you blameless before thepresence of his glory, with
great joy.
To the only God, our Savior.
Through Jesus Christ, our Lord,be glory, majesty, dominion and
authority before all time andnow and forever.
Amen.
And verse 4 points us to thatgreat day when it says when he
(05:01):
shall come with trumpet sound,oh, may I then in him be found,
dressed in his righteousnessalone, faultless, to stand
before the throne.
And, of course, after each ofthose verses, we have that
famous refrain On Christ, thesolid rock, I stand.
All other ground is sinkingsand.
(05:21):
All other ground is sinkingsand.
Are you standing on that solidrock, or are you standing on
some other place that you thinkis a stable place to stand?
Well, this hymn reminds us thatanything other than Christ is
sinking sand.
Place your trust in Christ,place your feet firmly upon the
(05:47):
one who is indeed the solid rock.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
I will shout and sing in praise for him.
Lord Standing on the promise,let the tears of Christ pass me
(06:11):
by Glory in the highest.
I will shout and sing in praisefor him, lord, for Christ has
come in.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Christ, you just heard two very different
arrangements of that great hymn,the Solid Rock, the first one
by the Brentwood Baptist ChurchChoir and Orchestra and the
second one by the late WalterHawkins on Love Alive 4.
(06:44):
And Mietta has our new CRQ.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
Thanks, Greg.
Tonight's CRQ.
When our choir and bandrehearse together, it's a bit
messy.
How should you conduct bothrehearsals together and make
them productive?
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Wow, did they use the word messy.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Messy, that's the word that they used.
Messy, well, I can tell you,mine is quick.
I don't think that I make it apractice not to rehearse new
music with the band and thechoir together.
That's a no-no for me.
I would not suggest you do itthat way.
(07:34):
Now, everything, everyone isdifferent.
Choirs are different.
I don't.
You can have to consider, maybe, rehearsal space.
I don't know what your issuesmay be.
However, rehearsing both ofthem together it will become
messy, it will be.
I am a firm believer that youshould rehearse with musicians
(07:56):
first and make sure that theyare on point with the music,
separate of singers, separate ofsingers.
Don't even have singers in theroom, just you and the music and
we work it out, hammer it outand when the choir comes.
(08:18):
You know it's kind of sketchywhen it comes to the choir,
because I also rehearse choirwithout band, if, if, that makes
sense.
You know some people can dothat.
Thank God I'm able to do that.
I've known people who are ableto do that so that the choir
will have have have a bettersense of what the notes should
(08:39):
sound like without all of theband, all of the music
surrounding it.
You know, just listening to itin its raw form.
That way they can blend and dowhat's necessary and needed for
that.
If you can do that, that'sgreat, that's great, but always.
I think you should alwaysrehearse separately and not
together.
(08:59):
Not together.
You're setting yourself up forfailure, in my opinion.
What say you, gentlemen andladies?
Speaker 3 (09:27):
we've just had a piano for the vocalists for the
vocal rehearsal.
We haven't had a band, it'sjust just the vocals and a piano
and you're working through theparts because you're right, I
mean it.
If it's a, it becomes arehearsal for both the band and
the choir and you as thedirector.
Or if you have a music directorand a choir director, there's
going to be a lot of confusionin that rehearsal and you're
really not going to get as muchout of that time for either one.
(09:50):
So I certainly agree thatthere's certainly a time for
bringing both together, butcertainly for new music.
That is not the time to saythat that is not the time.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I want to get Renee and Ben to jump in on this CRQ.
We're going to hear from them abit later, but Renee, what's
your opinion?
Speaker 5 (10:15):
Yeah, I agree Years ago when I was a kid in the
choir in the church that I amover now.
The music we did it alltogether.
It was just like the band andit was constant.
It was constant, you know.
You know them trying to learntheir part, the choir trying to
learn their part, and it didn'twork.
So now we do it where the bandlearns their stuff and before
(10:41):
the choir comes in, and then thechoir comes in and it kind of
meshes together at that point.
So it makes it a little bitmore doable.
The band already knows that,they're already familiar with it
, they know what they're doing,then the choir.
It makes it go a lot quicker.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Ben, you are on the musician side of Renee's comment
.
What's your thought?
Speaker 6 (11:00):
Yeah, so we actually throw in another layer to help
out with this process.
Yeah, so we actually throw inanother layer to help out with
(11:22):
this process.
In fact, recently we had a songthat we were trying to work
with our musicians and it wasn'tworking at all.
And so can pick out harmonypretty quick, and then we bring
them together and then, beforethe choir comes in again, we
bring in the soloists the weekbefore or the week of before the
choir comes in as well.
So we actually have like threelayers before the choir does it
with the musicians together, sothe soloist isn't figuring it
(11:45):
out with music for the firsttime right at rehearsal as well.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Right, you know there is no silver bullet to how a
choir rehearsal or bandrehearsal should be conducted.
These are just differentpractices and in some cases, you
know, some might consider bestpractices based on the context
of your situation.
However, I am a firm believerthat the musicians, the band,
should be way ahead of the choir, at least three or four songs
(12:11):
deep, and the purpose for thatis that it takes a little longer
to fine tune the music, perhapssometimes more than it does
choir.
And then sometimes you need theband to be so tight that they
can help compensate for whatevershortfalls the vocalist might
(12:32):
have in any of the music.
And in some cases you have tohave the reverse.
Some cases you have to drop theband in certain parts of the
song so that the choir can shine, because they have a better
grip on the music themselves.
Sometimes it's okay to have themusicians asking well, when are
we ever going to do this song?
In a service, you don't want tothrow the choir under the bus
(12:55):
and say, well, choir hasn'tgotten it together yet and vice
versa, you don't want to say tothe choir that the band hasn't
gotten it together yet.
But I want to go to one morething I want to go to the whole
messy word yeah because they usethe word messy to describe
how the rehearsals can be, and Iwonder if they are bringing the
(13:20):
choir in too soon or they'rebringing the band in too soon.
You know something's happeningthat's causing this rehearsal to
be messy Right.
And then I also wonder againwho's sending in the question?
Is this a choir member?
Is this a growing choirdirector?
Hey, this could even be thepastor sending this question in.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
You know what, Greg?
That's a really good questionbecause I know what messy could
look like.
I've been in rehearsals thatboth are learning at the same
time.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
And what happens.
And I don't know if it's inthis case, but when you talk
about messy, because that's theword we're focusing on right now
I've been in rehearsals andwhat what tends to happen.
The messy part is the thesingers get frustrated with the
(14:13):
musicians because the musiciansare not prepared.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Right, that'll do it.
Yeah, that'll do it it.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
Yeah, that'll do it, and and and and.
They may learn.
They may not in, the singersmay not, the vocals may not have
it all together, but they havea little more understanding as
to where these parts aresupposed to go.
So they're able to kind of fallin and get it done.
But when musicians aresomething about musicians and
singers, in a situation wherethe musicians are not prepared,
(14:49):
when the musicians are notprepared, singers get frustrated
.
Um, I don't know if it's fair,I'm just saying from a singer
start and start throwing,throwing right.
You know, and they have you knowthere's commentary, they, they
begin to have commentary.
So I'm almost certain thatthose are some of the messy
(15:10):
things that might be happeningin that rehearsal.
It's not necessarily that thechoir, because musicians I love
musicians, because even if thechoir is not prepared, musicians
will have their ownentertainment.
They will figure their ownentertainment.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
But you see, that was where I was going to go with it
.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Yeah, they'll make up their own entertainment, that's
a whole other problem because,then that's what frustrates
choir members too.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
They're trying to learn parts, and not a single
musician is able to sit therewithout tinkering Right and
plucking and playing andchatting and laughing, yeah.
They're just not there becausethey've got their part, yeah,
and they're just totally tunedout from what?
Speaker 2 (15:52):
the choir is doing so , the drums are going, you know
everything.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
If you really want to get me to throw something.
It's something about a drummerand I love the drums I do.
But it's something about adrummer when we're trying to
teach the choir their parts.
The drummer does something onthe, the, the snare that grinds
(16:19):
my gears.
He just he would.
And I had to have a friend.
He knew it bothered me, he knewhe and he, he was a drummer for
the choir and he would just sitthere and I had a have a friend
.
He knew it bothered me, he knewhe and he, he was a drummer for
the choir and he would just sitthere and just and he would
just do it while we're trying toteach.
And and they would.
(16:44):
I could hear them say watch meat her, watch me at her.
She's going to get upset in aminute it's going to frustrate
her, and so yeah, they maketheir own entertainment and it
becomes a real.
Speaker 6 (16:55):
It can become messy so, greg, I think I visited you
first when I was like 25 26years old and I always wondered
why I never practiced.
I think I visited you firstwhen I was like 25, 26 years old
and I always wondered why thechoir never practiced with the
musicians, and I didn't figureit out for quite a few years.
But now, looking back, I thinkthat's why he did it Keep them
(17:16):
separate, keep the distractionsminimal.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
You know we did have some disciplined and seasoned
musicians and you need that whenyou're going to bring choir and
band together, separate fromthe musicians' rehearsal.
The choir rehearsed every week,the band rehearsed every other
week, and then the last week ofthe month the choir and band
came together and so they wouldgo over the music that the
band's been covering and thechoir's been covering in
preparation for services.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
But we would come together in particular, uh, more
often, for special events.
Yeah, I was gonna say alsoduring those special occasions
as well.
Right, it was christmas,resurrection sunday, I mean,
where everybody had to be walksin and there was just but by
that time everyone had practicedeverything right and we were
just coming to tighten upeverything the official tech
rehearsal yeah, yeah, but butyeah, and even in those
(18:13):
rehearsals it could get a little.
Yeah, I'm sure.
Yeah, because yep, and and knowthat choir members aren't
innocent in all of this either,if you leave them alone too long
they'll start their chew andchat.
Chat and chew and everythingelse while you're working with
(18:39):
the band.
So there's definitely lots ofpersonalities in both groups,
and so, yeah, I sought the Lord.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
And he answered me and delivered me From every fear
.
Those who look on Him Areradiant.
Look on him, our radiant.
They'll never be ashamed.
(19:33):
They'll never be ashamed.
And this poor man cried, andthe Lord heard me and saved me
from my enemies.
The Son of God surrounds Hissaints.
(19:58):
He will deliver them.
He will deliver them.
He will deliver them.
So, magnify the Lord with me,oh, and come, let's all his name
(20:23):
together Together.
Glorify the Lord with me andcome, exalt His name forever.
Oh, taste and see that the Lordis good.
(20:48):
Oh, blessed is he who hides inme.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Welcome to the choir room From the choir rehearsal of
the Full GospelInterdenominational church in
Manchester, connecticut.
The music director and thechoir director husband and wife
team, the two extra voices youheard during the CRQ, the
dynamic duo Mr and Mrs Ben andRenee Westry.
(21:16):
Thanks for joining us guys.
So glad to have you here in thechoir room.
Hello, hello, hello, thank youfor having us I think we've
known each other for about what?
10, 12 years maybe, uh, longer,longer than that yeah, I think
I was.
Speaker 6 (21:32):
Yeah, yeah, I was in my, I think, mid to late 20s
when I first met you, and I'm 43now wow, has it been that long.
I mean goodness yeah, we, wewent and visited a choir
practice.
Uh, when I was in my late 20sand brought our choir leaders at
the time down with us.
We had two separate choirs atthe time a youth choir and an
(21:53):
adult choir, and we came andwatched how you did things.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Well, I hope you didn't leave disappointed and
that you felt it was worth thetrip and that you were blessed
to have been there.
We were.
I honestly didn't realize itwas that long ago, but I'm glad
to say that we are still friendsafter all these years, even
with the distance between us.
Ben and I are talking, you know, at least once a month, and so
(22:18):
it's just been great to be ableto maintain the friendship and
the camaraderie and thefellowship over the years.
We're continuing our focus onchurch choirs and, Ben and Renee
, you've been kind enough tosend us some clips from your
rehearsal, and earlier in thisepisode we heard from three of
your choir members sharing theirpersonal experiences and why
(22:39):
they do what they do in churchchoir.
So let's start with thespecific roles that you both
have.
Renee, you are the choirdirector.
Ben, you're the band director.
Renee, let's start with you.
Give us the story on your rolethere.
Speaker 5 (22:52):
Hello.
So, yeah, I actually work atthe church.
I have been there for 23 yearsworking.
I work full time and I work inthe leadership role, and one of
the positions that I do hold isworking in the music department,
and I have been in the musicdepartment at this church since
(23:16):
I was a kid.
I think I was 12 years old whenI joined the choir.
I was I was the youngest choirmember to ever be allowed to
join and so, yeah, I've been inthe music ministry at my home
church since then and when I wasabout 21, I became a leader of
the youth choir and my roleshave shifted and now my husband
(23:41):
and I both do the music ministryof the church and I usually
work with the singers more.
I'm not a musician, so we kindof like have split roles.
He handles the music side ofthe band side of it, I work with
the singers and the like, theworship and the choir, and then
(24:02):
we both like pastor the area youknow, both together taking care
of the people, watching overthe people.
So that's what I do.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
So the youngest choir member at age 12.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
Yeah, I was 12 years old, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
At age 12, you literally grew up there.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
I did, I did and now I am the leader of the choir
leader that was over me.
She's now like a retired leader, and so she I am, but now I
have the roles have switched andI get to lead her and still
glean from her, though you knowI still.
(24:40):
I still look at her and she'smy inspiration.
Awesome, I'm thankful.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
That's great and it's really important to make sure
that there are no feelings ofanimosity or feelings of being
pushed aside now that you'reunder new leadership.
Speaker 5 (24:53):
Yeah, yep, yep, I think so.
Yeah, and it was.
I mean I'm sure that I know shewould love to.
If she physically could, shewould still be directing every
song, I mean just for the timefor you know, shift, and.
But she's amazing and sheshares lots of wisdom and she's
one of the things with all ofher heart.
(25:14):
Awesome, her age it's awesome.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
It's wonderful that you can say that and that the
two of you are still servingtogether in a lot of situations.
That doesn't exist, and sokudos to you and to the former
choir director.
Let's go to Ben Ben, let's hearyour side of the journey, yeah,
so when I was a church boy,grew up in the church like Renee
.
Speaker 6 (25:36):
My first service was eight days old, but didn't serve
the Lord until I was really 15years old, got saved, and one of
the first things I did was Iasked to join the band and I
played the trumpet.
And I learned in school, youknow, to read sheet music, which
wasn't really you know, it wasclassical.
(25:59):
It wasn't church, no gospel.
There was no gospel choir inthe school.
So I just started playing thetrumpet and then over time I
became the head of the youthband.
Our pastor wanted to get youngpeople playing instruments and
so I was responsible for gettingthat group together once a
month to play for the worshipservice.
(26:20):
At the time we had a once amonth youth meeting and so that
was my responsibility.
And over time I began to learnother instruments the bass,
guitar, the keyboards, justtrying to help out wherever I
could.
And when my wife and I gotmarried it just started to be a
thing where we merged the twoareas together and we both had
(26:43):
individual administrativeresponsibilities that eventually
turned into one area, and as wegot older we were transitioned
into a leadership role withinthe church, and so I would say
for the past 25, yeah, 28 yearsI've been a part of the music
department and I frequently sayto my wife, it's like I never,
(27:06):
ever feel like it's duty to bethere.
Some days are harder than otherswhen you're tired, but I love
it.
I can tell you by the end ofevery worship service I'm
grateful that I was up there andserving.
Watching people with theirhands raised praising the Lord
and seeing burdens come offpeople's shoulders and their
lives, watch the tears streamdown people's faces it makes it
(27:26):
worth it every time.
Yeah, makes it worth it everytime.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
It is super special when you can see the impact of
the music ministry on the facesand lives of the people, and to
be able to do that with yourspouse, I'm sure it's got to be
super special.
Now I know the church isinterdenominational, and so tell
me the dynamics of the choir interms of culture and age.
What are some of the otherdynamics of the choir?
Speaker 5 (27:51):
So we have like a very diverse church from all
different backgrounds, and sothat's the first thing.
Dynamics are all over the placeand about four years ago we
decided to dissolve the youthchoir, which was like the high
schoolers up, and we meshed themtogether.
(28:13):
So now our big main choir isfrom you know, we have some 14
year olds up through 80s, youknow, like so as a very cultural
diversity and diverse diversityin age.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Did you say the youngest is 14?
Speaker 5 (28:33):
Yeah, 14 years old.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, oh you got to love that 14 to 80.
I mean that's a super greatspread and I think it's it's
conducive to learning from, youknow, the 14 year old, learning
from the 25 year and the 25 yearold, learning from the 40 year
old and the 40 year old,learning from the 70 year old,
and etc.
I think it's a wonderful thingto have if your congregation has
(28:56):
the ability and the dynamics todo such a thing.
Yeah, it is, ben.
I imagine you see some of thesame dynamics amongst the band
members.
What are some of the otherdynamics you deal with?
Speaker 6 (29:07):
There's so many backgrounds.
It's one of our challengesactually, is picking music that
resonates with each age groupand each cultural background.
So Renee and I frequently talk.
We you know she's in it day inand day out because she's an
employee of the church.
I volunteer when I'm not at myregular job, so when we get home
(29:27):
we tend to talk about thisstuff, which can be good and bad
some days, because some daysyou get frustrated with your
area, right, and you want to fixthings and we talk them out.
But the days that we really goback and forth, a lot is
discovering what music resonateswith the church, and it can be
a challenge because we have agroup that loves what's new and
(29:47):
fresh and we have some that arestill playing Andre Grouch every
day in their living room, andso choosing music that resonates
with the church it's probablyone of our biggest challenges.
Whether we go with hymns oneweek, we try to find a mix of
new, older, but most of all wecan tell when a song, when the
(30:10):
church likes a song.
It's just a feeling you get.
It.
It's just so much easier tosing and we find that now that
we put the lyrics on the screenif they can follow along, it
makes it easier to adopt a song.
That makes a big difference.
So even if the music's tight,the singing's great.
If they don't know the song,people tend to have some
trepidation.
So a lot of thought goes intojust picking the right stuff for
(30:32):
such a culturally and agediverse group.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
How many are in your choir?
Speaker 5 (30:38):
50.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
And did that change at all when you combine the two?
I mean, did you find any folksthat decided not to be a part of
it anymore because of that, orwere people receptive?
Speaker 5 (30:51):
I think I don't think it was.
Yeah, I don't.
I think people were veryreceptive.
I think it had to do with theapproach and the you know, when
we explained the reasoningbehind it and mostly the reason
was just trying to not be pulledin so many different areas,
especially like the band,especially, instead of having to
(31:12):
learn like all these differentsmall groups, it was so much
easier to just say we have onechoir, one band, one choir.
I mean, I think the way we didit, people were very receptive
to, I mean, organically, we justover time, some people, we've
been trying we put a biggerfocus on it, like, if you're
going to be a part of this choir, like you got to learn your
stuff, like we, when we, youknow, we took over, we kind of,
(31:35):
like, you know, put a little bitmore emphasis and importance on
you know this is ministry.
You know, if you, if you aregoing to preach over, you know,
if you were a preacher, youwould prepare and you would be
ready and you would pray over it.
There's no different than this.
It's not a hobby, it's aministry.
And when we started puttingthat emphasis, know, organically
, we just, you know, did losesome over time.
(31:56):
But we're definitely buildingback and now we're building
young people like the youngpeople are getting excited, um
about it and so they see moreyoung people up there and then,
okay, now I want to be a part,now I want to be a part.
So that's been a positive,that's been great.
Just that's just been recentlytoo.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
It's been really nice so did you bring over music
from your youth choir and haveand introduce it to some of the
older one, I mean?
Speaker 5 (32:20):
so I'm sure you had to do some of that, yeah that as
well in order to get everyoneto buy in yeah, what we did is
we took we took both, like youknow, um lists of songs, you
know, the ones that the adultswould do, the ones with the
youth to do, and we kind of justlike took some from each.
So so it kind of made it like,and then we did a bunch of new
(32:40):
stuff, you know.
So it was like, you know, wetook.
I think we took, I think whenwe did it this is like 10 years
ago now, I think we took like 10from each or something like
that, like in our like you knowlibrary, that we would pull from
10 from each and then we justadded a few more and then
eventually, over time I don'tknow, just it's worked.
It's worked really well.
(33:01):
Actually.
He'll give you everything.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
He'll give you everything.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
So magnify the Lord with me and come exalt His name.
I'm intrigued by something yousaid you were 12 years old.
This is the one church you'vebeen serving in.
I'm intrigued by something yousaid you were 12 years old at
this one.
This is the one church you'vebeen serving in.
(33:40):
Yes, and this would go for Benas well.
Speaker 6 (33:45):
Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 4 (33:47):
Wow, well, that's commendable, yeah, because we
rarely see that, that you servethese ministers of music and
these music directors serve inthat one church, because you
know we have so many options todo other things in other places.
(34:08):
So I think that is awesome.
That really, really is awesome.
That really really is awesome.
Ben, I do have a question foryou how?
Speaker 6 (34:24):
were you able to get the young men and women to get
interested in the band, wow, ok,so we're having this discussion
right now because we are seeinga need in our youngest
generation to be interested inmusic and I think for a long
time there was a lot ofintimidation around not being
good enough to play, because inour particular area I get really
jealous of areas like aroundthe city where they have gospel
(34:47):
choirs and they tend to be morelike.
If they're in our area theytend to be inner city.
Our town is a little moresuburban but it's still very
diverse, but we have no gospelchoir in our area.
They tend to be inner city.
Our town is a little moresuburban but it's still very
diverse, but we have no gospelchoir in our area in the school
system.
So you know we have playerslearning violin and cello and
you know clarinet and we're nottrying to play the clarinet
(35:08):
while singing.
You know I can pick from a lotof songs.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
I could use it.
Well, you know, if it's doneright, it can work.
I can pick from a lot of songs.
I could use it.
Well, you know, if it's doneright, it can work.
I mean, Kirk Carr has usedevery instrument from accordion
to clarinet.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
That's true.
Wow, I could use it.
Speaker 6 (35:34):
So what we did was we kind of just said if you play
an instrument, whatever it is,just join us.
And what we found is, yeah, Ithink it's true for most age
groups, but especially youngpeople, like to be together,
they want to be with theirfriends.
And so for a while, we weredoing like a separate practice,
and then a group of us actuallygot together and formed our own
band and what we would do is wewould this wasn't a church
(35:54):
sponsored event or anything likethat we would just get together
as friends and we would playinstruments and we'd sometimes
play specials in the churchtogether.
There was about eight, nine ofus and we would started taking
it a lot more serious, becausenow we were 18, 19 and we wanted
to sound good and the more we,we actually started getting
invited to play at otherchurches and from there, um, the
(36:19):
group didn't last forever, Likemost bands.
Uh, they don't last forever.
But as the band dissolved, um,we're all still members of the
church and they absorbed intothe what I would call the church
sponsored band that plays weekafter week.
So, um, and a lot of the in thein the years that I've been at
the church I think this is acommon theme where a group of
people on their own time werejust kind of jamming and gigging
(36:41):
together at their houses andjust loved music, and then they
would volunteer and sign up tobe in a church band, and so it
was kind of natural to see themgrow as young people into that
area.
So that's kind of what I'mworking on right now.
You can ask, renee, this hasbeen probably my thing.
I'm praying for the most rightnow.
I need another generation topick up a guitar.
(37:05):
I need a couple keyboardplayers right now, because the
Lord's working on me in a coupleof different areas right now
and it's.
You know, I need some more helpin my area and it would help me
to move forward, but I believeGod will provide.
Amen, absolutely Indeed.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
You know, as leaders of the choir and band, both of
you must have some level ofadministrative responsibilities.
This is a twofold question.
Tell us how your choir and bandare administrated and then,
when it comes to the finalselection for songs that are
going to be ministered, whomakes that final decision and
how is that decision made?
Speaker 6 (37:43):
Renee, it's administration is your gift.
Why don't you start with that?
Speaker 5 (37:49):
Yeah, so there's a team of four of us that work on
the music.
Ben and I are like the headoverseers, and then we have a
team, a married couple, under us, that work with us.
So the four of us do a lot ofthe administration, um kathleen,
who is um the wife, she, her,and I do a lot of the paperwork
and not papers, but everythingum the digital stuff.
(38:13):
We pick the songs and then weare, we upload it, we use the
box as a place for all of ourfile sharing.
Yeah, file sharing.
You know we pick the song andwe create the agenda and put an
agenda in the box.
All the choir members areconnected to the box in the
agenda as a link that bringsthem to the folder that has all
(38:33):
the stuff in it that they need.
We'll record the parts and putthe parts in there if it's a
more difficult song, so thatthey can come to the rehearsal.
You know, ready to go, put MP3in there, the chord sheet, lyric
sheet, everything in there.
So that's pretty much what wedo for administration.
We come up with, like this iswhat we're rehearsing, this
(38:55):
practice, this is what we'regoing over, and come up with
like this is what we'rerehearsing this practice, this
is what we're going over.
And we have we like havecalendars, you know, like this
is what we're going to do thisweek, this is what we're going
to do this week.
You know just to, so we can beprepared for special events at
backup plans, et cetera.
Speaker 6 (39:06):
So yeah, yeah, so I think she's um being we
understand a little bit.
So it's a lot more than this.
So that there we, we.
It sounds really simple, but Imean, this is we plan like we.
(39:33):
It's funny we have this runningjoke at the beginning of the
summer that in two months wehave to start planning for
christmas.
Um, so administration is likelike you have.
Yeah, it's like you, you'relooking for stuff.
Uh, way, way far ahead, and I Ithink something that's really
helped us is that there's.
(39:54):
It sounds really simple, butagendas really do matter in our
world For people to know whattime to arrive, what song we're
going to work on, the order inwhich we're going to do the song
.
It provides a certain amount ofcomfort for the members to know
just what they got to do thesong.
It provides a certain amount ofcomfort for the members to know
just what they got to do andwith the file sharing, we can
(40:16):
also look in if we are unsure.
If our soloists don't know themusic, we can see when they log
in.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
So all these things really do help.
Now, who does the recording andhow do you do them?
Speaker 5 (40:27):
So usually what we'll do is we have our like leads
that know that they work.
They're really good at findingthe parts, so, yeah, finding the
harmonies, and so we'll havelike a rehearsal and they'll
just simply record it on theirphone.
We're really simple for recordtheir part on your phone, upload
(40:48):
it to the box and label what,who, which, which choir, which
part it is, and the choir knowswhich part to go to to find
their part.
Yeah, it's pretty simple,gotcha.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Well, no two rehearsals are the same.
Some start with warmups, somestart with a devotional, some
start with a combination of thetwo.
Some people get right into themusic, the hard part of the
music.
Tell us how you guys conductyour rehearsals.
Speaker 5 (41:12):
So you know we pray together.
You know we usually try to dothe songs by like some faster,
some slower.
Give it like a little bit of,give them a few breaks in
between, you know, the harderstuff, don't save it all for the
end when they're tired.
Or you know like kind of dostuff like that and usually we
(41:33):
try to.
If it's a newer song we willtry to maybe do the harder stuff
.
But usually we just do like Ato Z, like just go through it
and try it and then stop when itgets hard, stop if there's
something we need to work on.
That way it kind of gives us anidea of how they're doing with
it.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
That's just yeah, ben , I'm sure your rehearsals are
different, but how did they lineup with what the choir is
learning so?
Speaker 6 (42:00):
we work on before the choir comes in.
We're probably working on thesong for two to three weeks if
it's new.
There's a lot of repeat.
So when you say the term, uh,you know eight, be ready, have
eight songs, be eight songs deep.
I know exactly what you mean,because there are songs we've
been playing for months now thatwe have yet to do, and for the
(42:20):
musicians sometimes they're likewe're still doing that and it's
like, yeah, we're still doingthat, um, but anything we try to
do no more than two brand newsongs, um in a in a practice,
and that means just a runthrough.
If it's the first time thechoir's ever sung it, we
actually play the originalrecording for them, um, from the
(42:42):
artist we got it from.
So before even the musiciansplay it, we actually sometimes
feel out, do they even like thissong interesting?
And we play it for them and wecan get a good feeling before we
ever sink a lot of work in ifit's even connecting with them.
But it's very layered.
I mentioned earlier that wearrive at 630, just the
musicians and the main leaders,and then we work for half an
(43:06):
hour to 45 minutes and then asoloist will come in and then
the choir shows up usually 45minutes into that practice.
Um, and we we've discoveredthat if, as mieta said, if the
musicians got it together,practice does not have to be two
hours.
Practice when I was growing upwas two hours long every time,
um, and it was the whole grouptogether stumbling and bumbling
(43:27):
through it.
Now we do it where the choircomes in and works probably for
30 to 45 minutes at the most andthey can go home and we get the
same amount of work done.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
It's just it's just approach.
I feel guilty because I don'tdo rehearsals less than two
hours.
But I will say this, and I sayit often, that it is the choir
director's responsibility thatthe choir leaves rehearsal
saying it was good to have beenthere, yeah.
(43:59):
And so, whether it's two hoursor 45 minutes, you know, or an
hour and a half, when people aregoing through the hustle and
bustle of coming from work andgetting to the church to give us
their undivided attention, forwhatever period of time that is,
I think the choir director hasa full responsibility to put in
the work, to making sure thattheir time is well spent, having
(44:23):
learned something, feelingaccomplished and having enjoyed
the fellowship.
Speaker 4 (44:29):
Ben, you said something that got my hair
standing on the back of my neck.
With musicians in particular,you find it sometimes helpful to
pick a song and just kind ofsit and listen to it from the
original artist, and listen toit with the musicians, just to
(44:50):
see if this music resonates atall, not just and I'm going to,
I'm going to add to that notjust spiritually, but just
musically, I guess and Greg, youcan help me with this word
maybe musically, phonetic,phonetically.
Does it make sense?
Does it?
Because there I know a fewmusicians that are have a hard
(45:14):
time dealing or working withlearning some of the music that
we, we sing nowadays, and a lotof times they say things like
well, that doesn't make sensemusically, you know, it doesn't
make sense.
It doesn't make sense mus, itdoesn't make sense Musical
theory, theoretically, itdoesn't make sense, you know.
So they, they find it hard toeven subscribe to learning
(45:39):
because it doesn't make sensemusically, and so I think it is
an awesome thing.
I never thought about it, butI'm gonna do it now.
Sit with it, you know, sit withthe musicians and let's listen
to it first before we start tolearn it.
You know, kind of listen to it.
That is an awesome thing.
I never thought to do that,because I'm just used to
throwing songs to people and saylearn that we're going to get
(46:01):
to it, just learn that.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Well, I think when a musician says that it doesn't
make sense.
That's code for oh.
Speaker 4 (46:09):
I know it is it's code.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
I'll just leave it right there.
It's cold.
Speaker 4 (46:15):
I get that.
I do, I get that.
Wow, that's amazing.
I'm going to have to.
I'm going to have to use that,ben, thank you.
Speaker 6 (46:27):
Yeah.
So, greg, I wanted to back upsomething you had said.
So we have a little bit of adifferent makeup with our choir.
We actually have two differentgroups.
Our choir sings one song a weekand our worship team carries
the bulk of the singing at thisparticular time.
(46:48):
Now, me and my wife have goneback and forth with this quite a
few times on how to incorporatethe choir into the whole
worship service, and it's one ofthe things that's just unique
about our setting.
The choir is one job for the 43years I've been in the building
has been to sing right beforethe preacher preaches.
(47:08):
So they have lessresponsibility than our worship
singers, so they don't requirethe same amount of time.
Our worship team meets actuallytwice a week Sunday morning
right before we actually stepout, and then Thursday night we
go through the a week a week ofsong lists.
So it's a we're a little bitdifferent than most we're.
(47:29):
We're kind of I'm continuallytrying to get the choir involved
into the worship service moreum, but it's.
We have a volunteer army, um,and our church makeup is very um
.
Everybody does a lot of things,um, and we've talked about this
, uh, greg, a little bit um,when some of our singers are are
(47:49):
Sunday school teachers areinvolved in the tech side, and
so they may not even sing withus every time the choir sings,
and so it creates some differentchallenges.
But everybody is reallyinvolved in just about
everything they can be involvedin, but it creates some
different hurdles and challengesfor us as well.
Hopefully that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Sure.
Well, let me speak to each ofthose points briefly.
The choir needs to understandthat even though they may not be
leading the song service, theyare still an intricate part of
the worship experience.
Sometimes the congregation onlyneeds to see them engaged in
worship and that encourages thecongregation to enter in.
Again, the choir needs toremember that they have a
(48:30):
threefold ministry, if you will,during the context of the
worship service and in the wordsof Dr James Mabson, he says
that the choir ministers to Godwith the people, ministers to
God for the people and thenministers to the people, and
that's typically the case duringthe typical worship service.
So the choir needs tounderstand the fact that, even
(48:52):
though they're not leading theworship service at that moment,
they are participating.
They are encouraging theworship team, they're
encouraging themselves, becausethe worship at that point is
still unto God with the people.
I think we get into a dangeroussituation when the choir feels
that they're only effective orthey're only doing ministry when
they are singing a choirspecial.
(49:12):
So let's make sure that theyunderstand that that's not the
case.
And then the second thing isand this may sound a little
direct, but let me complete thethought is that people will make
time for what they want to do.
If it's a ball game, we'll maketime.
If it's shopping, we'll maketime.
If it's surfing the internet,we'll make time.
(49:33):
If it's just sitting around thedinner table at a restaurant,
we make time for what we want todo, and I think it is the same
when it comes to the house ofGod.
We have to choose to make timefor what we want to do.
So for those who want to be inthe choir and feel like they're
called to the ministry of music,then they make the time to do
(49:53):
that.
Now I'm not saying that thesacrifice of your family or your
marriage or your job or yourhealth or even your finances,
but there is some sacrifice inthat I'm going to give an hour
to rehearsal or I'm going togive two hours a week to
rehearsal, whether that's at thechurch or whether that's an
hour in my own time and an hourat the church.
We make the time for what wewant to do.
(50:15):
Now I said that first because ifthe choir then is going to be
more involved in the worshipservice on Sunday and that
they're singing more songs,there's the what we call the
sermonic selection before thesermon and sometimes the
offertory song, which is theoffering before the sermon,
before the sermonic selection.
So sometimes that's at leasttwo songs that the choir is
(50:35):
preparing each week.
That may require more time interms of rehearsal.
So the choir and the band forthat matter, will have to
understand that it may requirejust a little more time in
rehearsal in order to prepareenough songs to have in our
arsenal to sing at any pointduring the service on Sunday,
whether that's an offertory songand the, if you will, sermonic
(50:58):
selection.
That's at least two songs thathappen in the service.
That can't always bepredetermined, because when it
is, then there really is no flowand we've all experienced no
flow in the service beforebecause we've sang the wrong
song at the wrong time.
And then finally and I totallyunderstand this choir members
who are involved in variousareas of ministry.
(51:20):
You've got volunteers, but theyare Sunday school teachers,
some of them are youth leaders,some of them are elders, et
cetera.
At some point it may benecessary to ask choir members
to commit to just being involvedin choir.
Now, I know that's a trickyproposition and not every choir
or not every church can even dothis.
But if the music ministry isgrowing and you're trying to
(51:42):
grow it.
You may be approaching the timeor at the time where you have
to ask choir members to committo just this, so that you don't
sacrifice your marriages or yourrelationship with your children
or you don't sacrifice too muchmore of your time or your
health because they're pulled inso many different areas.
You'll know just from sittingin rehearsal how many people are
(52:02):
actually rehearsing outside ofrehearsal and that is often an
indicator or an indication ofhow much time people actually
have to commit to the musicministry.
And that's a big pill toswallow when you're asking
people for more time to one areaof ministry and reconsidering
the other one.
I know teachers who areteachers at heart will want to
(52:22):
do both.
People who are involved in otherareas of ministry may be doing
it because family did it orbecause there's a need, and in
the church we know that peoplewill say yes oftentimes say yes
because they see a need.
It's a genuine yes, but thenlife catches up to them and they
realize they've overextendedthemselves.
So with music ministry it'ssuch a huge responsibility and
(52:44):
such a huge commitment, eventhough two hours of your week
seems like nothing compared tohow much time we would spend
watching television or sittingat a ball game, but it is a huge
responsibility nonetheless.
And it may seem to them likeyou're asking them for an arm or
a leg, but if they stop toseriously consider how much of
their time during the week wentto other things, this is unto
(53:06):
the Lord.
This is the music ministry.
It is a huge part of theworship experience and I think
this is an okay request.
And you'll know where the yeasare and the nays are, and I
don't think anybody should feelcondemned if they feel like they
can't give you an extra hour oran extra 30 minutes a week, and
you shouldn't feel condemned byasking for that.
So let me summarize this longreply to your comments.
(53:30):
One, the choir is more involvedin the worship service than
they probably realize.
However, if they're going tostart singing more choir songs
during the worship service, thatmay require more rehearsals and
may require more learning,because you have to have more
songs in your repertoire to beable to pull out at any moment
that is suitable for thatservice.
(53:52):
And then, thirdly, with that,that may require more rehearsal
time, whether that's morerehearsal time during the week
or asking them to commit morerehearsal time personally, so
that when they do come torehearsal they have learned the
material.
Don't you go back and say, gregThomas, you should be
committing more time to thehouse.
Speaker 6 (54:12):
I got it recorded, man, it's recorded.
Speaker 4 (54:17):
Do you, do you see in the future the choir
participating more in theworship service other than just
the sermonic selection, if youwill?
Speaker 5 (54:30):
than just the sermonic selection, if you will.
I can definitely see that couldhappen, where we would maybe
sing more than one song beforethe message.
I think we'd have to have somerestructuring in our services
and the way we do things to beable to accommodate them being
up there the whole time.
As far as, like, say, we openup up the service and they were,
(54:53):
they were up on the platform,we wouldn't be able to
necessarily do that at this timedoesn't mean that would never
happen.
The our church loves the choir,so if we ever did that, I know
that it would just like beamazing.
The choir is a we're a greatteam and have great camaraderie,
so if we were able to one daydo that, that would be amazing.
(55:16):
But, um, definitely singing,you know, we could definitely
probably add to what we're doing.
We used to do the choir used tosing on sunday morning, sunday
nights and wednesday nights.
We have three services a weekand the choir used to do more
singing.
Um, but we kind of like cutback on some things on Wednesday
nights and cut back on Sundaynights.
Not because of the choir isjust like restructuring our
(55:36):
services.
So it ended up being where thechoir just does the one song
before the message, butdefinitely we could grow that.
Speaker 1 (55:46):
So the song before the sermon, which again is often
referred to as the sermonicselection, and ironically in a
lot of churches that song hasnothing to do with the sermon.
But does the pastor or whoeveris speaking ever tell you what
they're preaching so that yoursong lines up with that message?
Speaker 5 (56:05):
I wish.
No, they don't.
I mean very, very rarely doesthat ever happen.
That usually it, you know,organically, the Lord just does
it.
I mean I'm not saying it's,it's.
We've failed and ever sungsomething that was totally off.
(56:25):
I think you know spirit of God,you know you prayerfully pick
and you choose your selection.
But those times it does line upperfectly.
It's like yeah but no but um no, nobody tells us.
Speaker 1 (56:40):
I see, all the more reason to have several songs in
your arsenal ready to go.
So yeah, they'd say well, thisis what I'm preaching.
I'd like you to find a song, orsometimes the.
The pastor will say, hey,here's the song I'd like you to
do yeah, and that's fine.
I mean we are under authority.
We're taking that and we'regoing to do it to the best of
our ability.
But then there are other timeswhen pastor just trusts the
(57:03):
music ministry and that's reallywhere you want to be.
You want that kind ofrelationship where they trust
the spirit in you, ofrelationship where they trust
the spirit in you, trust thatyou're not going to come with
something totally disconnected.
Speaker 4 (57:16):
Uh, and that you're hearing from god as well?
Yeah, I'm gonna.
I promise this is well, here'smy comic relief, right?
So, um, has there ever been atime where the song that you
picked for the sermonicselection just totally bombed?
Speaker 5 (57:34):
that is, wait a minute, renee made it hard to
preach because I've been there,I know that happens, like I wish
I, I wish I could say no, butyeah, yeah yeah, see, we don't
often tell the truth about that.
We don't, we don't it hashappened, oh, and you go to your
(57:57):
seat and you're like, oh mygosh thank you for sharing,
renee.
Speaker 4 (58:06):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (58:13):
No, getting that one back.
Speaker 5 (58:14):
No no.
Speaker 6 (58:16):
So Renee probably doesn't even want me to bring
this up, but we had a, she hadan, we all had an experience.
I heard how old were we.
Renee, keep me near the cross.
Speaker 5 (58:29):
Remember that when we sang that song reminding me,
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 (58:39):
The thing about it is we were so young and there was
so much to learn on our end thatwhen it didn't work, we really
blamed ourselves for it andlearned a lot.
What we found is it's verycommon for ministry to be so
disconnected from leadership attimes, and so what we've learned
over the years is that we we'renot operating outside of, you
(59:01):
know, on our own, but we reallyneed to collaborate more to the
best we can and to be in tunewith what's happening in the
church, and it just makes life alot easier when we're all on
the same page.
We're not mind.
Readers praise the Lord.
So any direction always helps,but you know, ministry is
together.
It's not everybody operating intheir silos, but we should
(59:23):
connect.
Speaker 1 (59:24):
That is the perfect closer to this podcast.
Ben Renee, thanks for joiningus, mietta and Dorian, as usual.
And to our listeners rememberto subscribe, like and share.
And then finally remember, ifwe ever put the messenger before
the message, we have failed topresent an unblemished gospel.
I'm Greg Thomas.
Join us again next time here inthe Choir Room.
Welcome to the Choir Room.
This is episode 39 of the ChoirRoom Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome to the Choir.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Room.
I'm Greg Thomas, your host, andI'll soon be joined by my
co-hosts, Dorian Johnson Welcometo the Choir Room and Mietta
Stansil-Farrar.
This podcast exists to promoteand encourage two longtime
traditions in our society thatseem to be dwindling away, and
(00:31):
that is choir and corporatesinging, and we hope to revive
the excitement and joyexperienced with singing in a
choir, as well as inform andeducate the listener on all
things singing and all thingschoir.
And this podcast is aproduction of Metro Music and
Arts, whose purpose is toperpetuate and promote the
Christian and positive ideathrough the medium of music and
(00:52):
other arts.
Now, there is no one single wayto conduct a choir rehearsal or
conduct a choir in your churchservices.
Today, we discuss some of thesebest practices as we continue
with our focus on the churchchoir during this season.
We are joined by husband andwife team choir director and
music director of the FullGospel Interdenominational
(01:23):
Church in Manchester,Connecticut.
Husband and wife team, Mr andMrs, Ben and Renee Westry.
Now that's a little clip fromtheir choir rehearsal and we're
going to talk to them abouttheir best practices in a little
bit, but before they come,Dorian is going to give us our
hymn of the week.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Thanks, greg, us in a little bit, but before they
come, dorian is going to give usour hymn of the week.
Thanks, greg.
This week's hymn of the week ismy Hope is Built on Nothing.
Less In 1834, edward Mote wasreported to be walking along and
thought to himself to write ahymn on the gracious experience
of a Christian, and from thatthought came this hymn that we
(02:08):
sing all throughout the worldtoday.
This hymn reminds me of variousportions of Scripture.
We read in Psalm 40, verse 2, Iwaited patiently for the Lord.
He inclined to me and heard mycry.
He drew me up from the pit ofdestruction, out of the miry bog
, and set my feet upon a rock,making my steps secure.
(02:34):
Then we hear the words ofChrist at the end of the Sermon
on the Mount in Matthew 7,verses 24 and 25, where he says
Everyone then, who hears thesewords of mine and does them will
be like a wise man who builthis house on the rock.
And the rain fell and thefloods came and the winds blew
(02:56):
and beat on that house, but itdid not fall because it had been
founded on the rock.
Because it had been founded onthe rock.
This great hymn is so full ofrich theology, pointing us to
all that Christ has gained forus in his atoning death and in
his perfect life gaining for usforgiveness of sins and gaining
(03:20):
for us also a perfectrighteousness before the Father.
Familiar verses read in verse 1, my hope is built on nothing
less than Jesus' blood andrighteousness.
I dare not trust the sweetestframe but wholly lean on Jesus'
name.
We're reminded that theChristian goes through various
(03:42):
trials and difficultcircumstances, but despite those
circumstances, christ is stillwith us, and we hear that in
verse 2.
When we sing, when darknessveils his lovely face, I rest on
his unchanging grace.
In every high and stormy gale,my anchor holds within the veil.
(04:04):
In stormy gale, my anchor holdswithin the veil.
Verse 3 reminds us of God'sgreat faithfulness to who he is,
of his covenant with his people, the covenant that was sealed
with the blood of Christ, as weread in Jude 24, which says Now
(04:39):
to him who is able to keep youfrom stumbling and to present
you blameless before thepresence of his glory, with
great joy.
To the only God, our Savior.
Through Jesus Christ, our Lord,be glory, majesty, dominion and
authority before all time andnow and forever.
Amen.
And verse 4 points us to thatgreat day when it says when he
(05:01):
shall come with trumpet sound,oh, may I then in him be found,
dressed in his righteousnessalone, faultless, to stand
before the throne.
And, of course, after each ofthose verses, we have that
famous refrain On Christ, thesolid rock, I stand.
All other ground is sinkingsand.
(05:21):
All other ground is sinkingsand.
Are you standing on that solidrock, or are you standing on
some other place that you thinkis a stable place to stand?
Well, this hymn reminds us thatanything other than Christ is
sinking sand.
Place your trust in Christ,place your feet firmly upon the
(05:47):
one who is indeed the solid rock.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
I will shout and sing in praise for him.
Lord Standing on the promise,let the tears of Christ pass me
(06:11):
by Glory in the highest.
I will shout and sing in praisefor him, lord, for Christ has
come in.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Christ, you just heard two very different
arrangements of that great hymn,the Solid Rock, the first one
by the Brentwood Baptist ChurchChoir and Orchestra and the
second one by the late WalterHawkins on Love Alive 4.
(06:44):
And Mietta has our new CRQ.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
Thanks, Greg.
Tonight's CRQ.
When our choir and bandrehearse together, it's a bit
messy.
How should you conduct bothrehearsals together and make
them productive?
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Wow, did they use the word messy.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Messy, that's the word that they used.
Messy, well, I can tell you,mine is quick.
I don't think that I make it apractice not to rehearse new
music with the band and thechoir together.
That's a no-no for me.
I would not suggest you do itthat way.
(07:34):
Now, everything, everyone isdifferent.
Choirs are different.
I don't.
You can have to consider, maybe, rehearsal space.
I don't know what your issuesmay be.
However, rehearsing both ofthem together it will become
messy, it will be.
I am a firm believer that youshould rehearse with musicians
(07:56):
first and make sure that theyare on point with the music,
separate of singers, separate ofsingers.
Don't even have singers in theroom, just you and the music and
we work it out, hammer it outand when the choir comes.
(08:18):
You know it's kind of sketchywhen it comes to the choir,
because I also rehearse choirwithout band, if, if, that makes
sense.
You know some people can dothat.
Thank God I'm able to do that.
I've known people who are ableto do that so that the choir
will have have have a bettersense of what the notes should
(08:39):
sound like without all of theband, all of the music
surrounding it.
You know, just listening to itin its raw form.
That way they can blend and dowhat's necessary and needed for
that.
If you can do that, that'sgreat, that's great, but always.
I think you should alwaysrehearse separately and not
together.
(08:59):
Not together.
You're setting yourself up forfailure, in my opinion.
What say you, gentlemen andladies?
Speaker 3 (09:27):
we've just had a piano for the vocalists for the
vocal rehearsal.
We haven't had a band, it'sjust just the vocals and a piano
and you're working through theparts because you're right, I
mean it.
If it's a, it becomes arehearsal for both the band and
the choir and you as thedirector.
Or if you have a music directorand a choir director, there's
going to be a lot of confusionin that rehearsal and you're
really not going to get as muchout of that time for either one.
(09:50):
So I certainly agree thatthere's certainly a time for
bringing both together, butcertainly for new music.
That is not the time to saythat that is not the time.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I want to get Renee and Ben to jump in on this CRQ.
We're going to hear from them abit later, but Renee, what's
your opinion?
Speaker 5 (10:15):
Yeah, I agree Years ago when I was a kid in the
choir in the church that I amover now.
The music we did it alltogether.
It was just like the band andit was constant.
It was constant, you know.
You know them trying to learntheir part, the choir trying to
learn their part, and it didn'twork.
So now we do it where the bandlearns their stuff and before
(10:41):
the choir comes in, and then thechoir comes in and it kind of
meshes together at that point.
So it makes it a little bitmore doable.
The band already knows that,they're already familiar with it
, they know what they're doing,then the choir.
It makes it go a lot quicker.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Ben, you are on the musician side of Renee's comment
.
What's your thought?
Speaker 6 (11:00):
Yeah, so we actually throw in another layer to help
out with this process.
Yeah, so we actually throw inanother layer to help out with
(11:22):
this process.
In fact, recently we had a songthat we were trying to work
with our musicians and it wasn'tworking at all.
And so can pick out harmonypretty quick, and then we bring
them together and then, beforethe choir comes in again, we
bring in the soloists the weekbefore or the week of before the
choir comes in as well.
So we actually have like threelayers before the choir does it
with the musicians together, sothe soloist isn't figuring it
(11:45):
out with music for the firsttime right at rehearsal as well.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Right, you know there is no silver bullet to how a
choir rehearsal or bandrehearsal should be conducted.
These are just differentpractices and in some cases, you
know, some might consider bestpractices based on the context
of your situation.
However, I am a firm believerthat the musicians, the band,
should be way ahead of the choir, at least three or four songs
(12:11):
deep, and the purpose for thatis that it takes a little longer
to fine tune the music, perhapssometimes more than it does
choir.
And then sometimes you need theband to be so tight that they
can help compensate for whatevershortfalls the vocalist might
(12:32):
have in any of the music.
And in some cases you have tohave the reverse.
Some cases you have to drop theband in certain parts of the
song so that the choir can shine, because they have a better
grip on the music themselves.
Sometimes it's okay to have themusicians asking well, when are
we ever going to do this song?
In a service, you don't want tothrow the choir under the bus
(12:55):
and say, well, choir hasn'tgotten it together yet and vice
versa, you don't want to say tothe choir that the band hasn't
gotten it together yet.
But I want to go to one morething I want to go to the whole
messy word yeah because they usethe word messy to describe
how the rehearsals can be, and Iwonder if they are bringing the
(13:20):
choir in too soon or they'rebringing the band in too soon.
You know something's happeningthat's causing this rehearsal to
be messy Right.
And then I also wonder againwho's sending in the question?
Is this a choir member?
Is this a growing choirdirector?
Hey, this could even be thepastor sending this question in.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
You know what, Greg?
That's a really good questionbecause I know what messy could
look like.
I've been in rehearsals thatboth are learning at the same
time.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
And what happens.
And I don't know if it's inthis case, but when you talk
about messy, because that's theword we're focusing on right now
I've been in rehearsals andwhat what tends to happen.
The messy part is the thesingers get frustrated with the
(14:13):
musicians because the musiciansare not prepared.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Right, that'll do it.
Yeah, that'll do it it.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
Yeah, that'll do it, and and and and.
They may learn.
They may not in, the singersmay not, the vocals may not have
it all together, but they havea little more understanding as
to where these parts aresupposed to go.
So they're able to kind of fallin and get it done.
But when musicians aresomething about musicians and
singers, in a situation wherethe musicians are not prepared,
(14:49):
when the musicians are notprepared, singers get frustrated
.
Um, I don't know if it's fair,I'm just saying from a singer
start and start throwing,throwing right.
You know, and they have you knowthere's commentary, they, they
begin to have commentary.
So I'm almost certain thatthose are some of the messy
(15:10):
things that might be happeningin that rehearsal.
It's not necessarily that thechoir, because musicians I love
musicians, because even if thechoir is not prepared, musicians
will have their ownentertainment.
They will figure their ownentertainment.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
But you see, that was where I was going to go with it
.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Yeah, they'll make up their own entertainment, that's
a whole other problem because,then that's what frustrates
choir members too.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
They're trying to learn parts, and not a single
musician is able to sit therewithout tinkering Right and
plucking and playing andchatting and laughing, yeah.
They're just not there becausethey've got their part, yeah,
and they're just totally tunedout from what?
Speaker 2 (15:52):
the choir is doing so , the drums are going, you know
everything.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
If you really want to get me to throw something.
It's something about a drummerand I love the drums I do.
But it's something about adrummer when we're trying to
teach the choir their parts.
The drummer does something onthe, the, the snare that grinds
(16:19):
my gears.
He just he would.
And I had to have a friend.
He knew it bothered me, he knewhe and he, he was a drummer for
the choir and he would just sitthere and I had a have a friend
.
He knew it bothered me, he knewhe and he, he was a drummer for
the choir and he would just sitthere and just and he would
just do it while we're trying toteach.
And and they would.
(16:44):
I could hear them say watch meat her, watch me at her.
She's going to get upset in aminute it's going to frustrate
her, and so yeah, they maketheir own entertainment and it
becomes a real.
Speaker 6 (16:55):
It can become messy so, greg, I think I visited you
first when I was like 25 26years old and I always wondered
why I never practiced.
I think I visited you firstwhen I was like 25, 26 years old
and I always wondered why thechoir never practiced with the
musicians, and I didn't figureit out for quite a few years.
But now, looking back, I thinkthat's why he did it Keep them
(17:16):
separate, keep the distractionsminimal.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
You know we did have some disciplined and seasoned
musicians and you need that whenyou're going to bring choir and
band together, separate fromthe musicians' rehearsal.
The choir rehearsed every week,the band rehearsed every other
week, and then the last week ofthe month the choir and band
came together and so they wouldgo over the music that the
band's been covering and thechoir's been covering in
preparation for services.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
But we would come together in particular, uh, more
often, for special events.
Yeah, I was gonna say alsoduring those special occasions
as well.
Right, it was christmas,resurrection sunday, I mean,
where everybody had to be walksin and there was just but by
that time everyone had practicedeverything right and we were
just coming to tighten upeverything the official tech
rehearsal yeah, yeah, but butyeah, and even in those
(18:13):
rehearsals it could get a little.
Yeah, I'm sure.
Yeah, because yep, and and knowthat choir members aren't
innocent in all of this either,if you leave them alone too long
they'll start their chew andchat.
Chat and chew and everythingelse while you're working with
(18:39):
the band.
So there's definitely lots ofpersonalities in both groups,
and so, yeah, I sought the Lord.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
And he answered me and delivered me From every fear
.
Those who look on Him Areradiant.
Look on him, our radiant.
They'll never be ashamed.
(19:33):
They'll never be ashamed.
And this poor man cried, andthe Lord heard me and saved me
from my enemies.
The Son of God surrounds Hissaints.
(19:58):
He will deliver them.
He will deliver them.
He will deliver them.
So, magnify the Lord with me,oh, and come, let's all his name
(20:23):
together Together.
Glorify the Lord with me andcome, exalt His name forever.
Oh, taste and see that the Lordis good.
(20:48):
Oh, blessed is he who hides inme.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Welcome to the choir room From the choir rehearsal of
the Full GospelInterdenominational church in
Manchester, connecticut.
The music director and thechoir director husband and wife
team, the two extra voices youheard during the CRQ, the
dynamic duo Mr and Mrs Ben andRenee Westry.
(21:16):
Thanks for joining us guys.
So glad to have you here in thechoir room.
Hello, hello, hello, thank youfor having us I think we've
known each other for about what?
10, 12 years maybe, uh, longer,longer than that yeah, I think
I was.
Speaker 6 (21:32):
Yeah, yeah, I was in my, I think, mid to late 20s
when I first met you, and I'm 43now wow, has it been that long.
I mean goodness yeah, we, wewent and visited a choir
practice.
Uh, when I was in my late 20sand brought our choir leaders at
the time down with us.
We had two separate choirs atthe time a youth choir and an
(21:53):
adult choir, and we came andwatched how you did things.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Well, I hope you didn't leave disappointed and
that you felt it was worth thetrip and that you were blessed
to have been there.
We were.
I honestly didn't realize itwas that long ago, but I'm glad
to say that we are still friendsafter all these years, even
with the distance between us.
Ben and I are talking, you know, at least once a month, and so
(22:18):
it's just been great to be ableto maintain the friendship and
the camaraderie and thefellowship over the years.
We're continuing our focus onchurch choirs and, Ben and Renee
, you've been kind enough tosend us some clips from your
rehearsal, and earlier in thisepisode we heard from three of
your choir members sharing theirpersonal experiences and why
(22:39):
they do what they do in churchchoir.
So let's start with thespecific roles that you both
have.
Renee, you are the choirdirector.
Ben, you're the band director.
Renee, let's start with you.
Give us the story on your rolethere.
Speaker 5 (22:52):
Hello.
So, yeah, I actually work atthe church.
I have been there for 23 yearsworking.
I work full time and I work inthe leadership role, and one of
the positions that I do hold isworking in the music department,
and I have been in the musicdepartment at this church since
(23:16):
I was a kid.
I think I was 12 years old whenI joined the choir.
I was I was the youngest choirmember to ever be allowed to
join and so, yeah, I've been inthe music ministry at my home
church since then and when I wasabout 21, I became a leader of
the youth choir and my roleshave shifted and now my husband
(23:41):
and I both do the music ministryof the church and I usually
work with the singers more.
I'm not a musician, so we kindof like have split roles.
He handles the music side ofthe band side of it, I work with
the singers and the like, theworship and the choir, and then
(24:02):
we both like pastor the area youknow, both together taking care
of the people, watching overthe people.
So that's what I do.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
So the youngest choir member at age 12.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
Yeah, I was 12 years old, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
At age 12, you literally grew up there.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
I did, I did and now I am the leader of the choir
leader that was over me.
She's now like a retired leader, and so she I am, but now I
have the roles have switched andI get to lead her and still
glean from her, though you knowI still.
(24:40):
I still look at her and she'smy inspiration.
Awesome, I'm thankful.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
That's great and it's really important to make sure
that there are no feelings ofanimosity or feelings of being
pushed aside now that you'reunder new leadership.
Speaker 5 (24:53):
Yeah, yep, yep, I think so.
Yeah, and it was.
I mean I'm sure that I know shewould love to.
If she physically could, shewould still be directing every
song, I mean just for the timefor you know, shift, and.
But she's amazing and sheshares lots of wisdom and she's
one of the things with all ofher heart.
(25:14):
Awesome, her age it's awesome.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
It's wonderful that you can say that and that the
two of you are still servingtogether in a lot of situations.
That doesn't exist, and sokudos to you and to the former
choir director.
Let's go to Ben Ben, let's hearyour side of the journey, yeah,
so when I was a church boy,grew up in the church like Renee
.
Speaker 6 (25:36):
My first service was eight days old, but didn't serve
the Lord until I was really 15years old, got saved, and one of
the first things I did was Iasked to join the band and I
played the trumpet.
And I learned in school, youknow, to read sheet music, which
wasn't really you know, it wasclassical.
(25:59):
It wasn't church, no gospel.
There was no gospel choir inthe school.
So I just started playing thetrumpet and then over time I
became the head of the youthband.
Our pastor wanted to get youngpeople playing instruments and
so I was responsible for gettingthat group together once a
month to play for the worshipservice.
(26:20):
At the time we had a once amonth youth meeting and so that
was my responsibility.
And over time I began to learnother instruments the bass,
guitar, the keyboards, justtrying to help out wherever I
could.
And when my wife and I gotmarried it just started to be a
thing where we merged the twoareas together and we both had
(26:43):
individual administrativeresponsibilities that eventually
turned into one area, and as wegot older we were transitioned
into a leadership role withinthe church, and so I would say
for the past 25, yeah, 28 yearsI've been a part of the music
department and I frequently sayto my wife, it's like I never,
(27:06):
ever feel like it's duty to bethere.
Some days are harder than otherswhen you're tired, but I love
it.
I can tell you by the end ofevery worship service I'm
grateful that I was up there andserving.
Watching people with theirhands raised praising the Lord
and seeing burdens come offpeople's shoulders and their
lives, watch the tears streamdown people's faces it makes it
(27:26):
worth it every time.
Yeah, makes it worth it everytime.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
It is super special when you can see the impact of
the music ministry on the facesand lives of the people, and to
be able to do that with yourspouse, I'm sure it's got to be
super special.
Now I know the church isinterdenominational, and so tell
me the dynamics of the choir interms of culture and age.
What are some of the otherdynamics of the choir?
Speaker 5 (27:51):
So we have like a very diverse church from all
different backgrounds, and sothat's the first thing.
Dynamics are all over the placeand about four years ago we
decided to dissolve the youthchoir, which was like the high
schoolers up, and we meshed themtogether.
(28:13):
So now our big main choir isfrom you know, we have some 14
year olds up through 80s, youknow, like so as a very cultural
diversity and diverse diversityin age.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Did you say the youngest is 14?
Speaker 5 (28:33):
Yeah, 14 years old.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, oh you got to love that 14 to 80.
I mean that's a super greatspread and I think it's it's
conducive to learning from, youknow, the 14 year old, learning
from the 25 year and the 25 yearold, learning from the 40 year
old and the 40 year old,learning from the 70 year old,
and etc.
I think it's a wonderful thingto have if your congregation has
(28:56):
the ability and the dynamics todo such a thing.
Yeah, it is, ben.
I imagine you see some of thesame dynamics amongst the band
members.
What are some of the otherdynamics you deal with?
Speaker 6 (29:07):
There's so many backgrounds.
It's one of our challengesactually, is picking music that
resonates with each age groupand each cultural background.
So Renee and I frequently talk.
We you know she's in it day inand day out because she's an
employee of the church.
I volunteer when I'm not at myregular job, so when we get home
(29:27):
we tend to talk about thisstuff, which can be good and bad
some days, because some daysyou get frustrated with your
area, right, and you want to fixthings and we talk them out.
But the days that we really goback and forth, a lot is
discovering what music resonateswith the church, and it can be
a challenge because we have agroup that loves what's new and
(29:47):
fresh and we have some that arestill playing Andre Grouch every
day in their living room, andso choosing music that resonates
with the church it's probablyone of our biggest challenges.
Whether we go with hymns oneweek, we try to find a mix of
new, older, but most of all wecan tell when a song, when the
(30:10):
church likes a song.
It's just a feeling you get.
It.
It's just so much easier tosing and we find that now that
we put the lyrics on the screenif they can follow along, it
makes it easier to adopt a song.
That makes a big difference.
So even if the music's tight,the singing's great.
If they don't know the song,people tend to have some
trepidation.
So a lot of thought goes intojust picking the right stuff for
(30:32):
such a culturally and agediverse group.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
How many are in your choir?
Speaker 5 (30:38):
50.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
And did that change at all when you combine the two?
I mean, did you find any folksthat decided not to be a part of
it anymore because of that, orwere people receptive?
Speaker 5 (30:51):
I think I don't think it was.
Yeah, I don't.
I think people were veryreceptive.
I think it had to do with theapproach and the you know, when
we explained the reasoningbehind it and mostly the reason
was just trying to not be pulledin so many different areas,
especially like the band,especially, instead of having to
(31:12):
learn like all these differentsmall groups, it was so much
easier to just say we have onechoir, one band, one choir.
I mean, I think the way we didit, people were very receptive
to, I mean, organically, we justover time, some people, we've
been trying we put a biggerfocus on it, like, if you're
going to be a part of this choir, like you got to learn your
stuff, like we, when we, youknow, we took over, we kind of,
(31:35):
like, you know, put a little bitmore emphasis and importance on
you know this is ministry.
You know, if you, if you aregoing to preach over, you know,
if you were a preacher, youwould prepare and you would be
ready and you would pray over it.
There's no different than this.
It's not a hobby, it's aministry.
And when we started puttingthat emphasis, know, organically
, we just, you know, did losesome over time.
(31:56):
But we're definitely buildingback and now we're building
young people like the youngpeople are getting excited, um
about it and so they see moreyoung people up there and then,
okay, now I want to be a part,now I want to be a part.
So that's been a positive,that's been great.
Just that's just been recentlytoo.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
It's been really nice so did you bring over music
from your youth choir and haveand introduce it to some of the
older one, I mean?
Speaker 5 (32:20):
so I'm sure you had to do some of that, yeah that as
well in order to get everyoneto buy in yeah, what we did is
we took we took both, like youknow, um lists of songs, you
know, the ones that the adultswould do, the ones with the
youth to do, and we kind of justlike took some from each.
So so it kind of made it like,and then we did a bunch of new
(32:40):
stuff, you know.
So it was like, you know, wetook.
I think we took, I think whenwe did it this is like 10 years
ago now, I think we took like 10from each or something like
that, like in our like you knowlibrary, that we would pull from
10 from each and then we justadded a few more and then
eventually, over time I don'tknow, just it's worked.
It's worked really well.
(33:01):
Actually.
He'll give you everything.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
He'll give you everything.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
So magnify the Lord with me and come exalt His name.
I'm intrigued by something yousaid you were 12 years old.
This is the one church you'vebeen serving in.
I'm intrigued by something yousaid you were 12 years old at
this one.
This is the one church you'vebeen serving in.
(33:40):
Yes, and this would go for Benas well.
Speaker 6 (33:45):
Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 4 (33:47):
Wow, well, that's commendable, yeah, because we
rarely see that, that you servethese ministers of music and
these music directors serve inthat one church, because you
know we have so many options todo other things in other places.
(34:08):
So I think that is awesome.
That really, really is awesome.
That really really is awesome.
Ben, I do have a question foryou how?
Speaker 6 (34:24):
were you able to get the young men and women to get
interested in the band, wow, ok,so we're having this discussion
right now because we are seeinga need in our youngest
generation to be interested inmusic and I think for a long
time there was a lot ofintimidation around not being
good enough to play, because inour particular area I get really
jealous of areas like aroundthe city where they have gospel
(34:47):
choirs and they tend to be morelike.
If they're in our area theytend to be inner city.
Our town is a little moresuburban but it's still very
diverse, but we have no gospelchoir in our area.
They tend to be inner city.
Our town is a little moresuburban but it's still very
diverse, but we have no gospelchoir in our area in the school
system.
So you know we have playerslearning violin and cello and
you know clarinet and we're nottrying to play the clarinet
(35:08):
while singing.
You know I can pick from a lotof songs.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
I could use it.
Well, you know, if it's doneright, it can work.
I can pick from a lot of songs.
I could use it.
Well, you know, if it's doneright, it can work.
I mean, Kirk Carr has usedevery instrument from accordion
to clarinet.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
That's true.
Wow, I could use it.
Speaker 6 (35:34):
So what we did was we kind of just said if you play
an instrument, whatever it is,just join us.
And what we found is, yeah, Ithink it's true for most age
groups, but especially youngpeople, like to be together,
they want to be with theirfriends.
And so for a while, we weredoing like a separate practice,
and then a group of us actuallygot together and formed our own
band and what we would do is wewould this wasn't a church
(35:54):
sponsored event or anything likethat we would just get together
as friends and we would playinstruments and we'd sometimes
play specials in the churchtogether.
There was about eight, nine ofus and we would started taking
it a lot more serious, becausenow we were 18, 19 and we wanted
to sound good and the more we,we actually started getting
invited to play at otherchurches and from there, um, the
(36:19):
group didn't last forever, Likemost bands.
Uh, they don't last forever.
But as the band dissolved, um,we're all still members of the
church and they absorbed intothe what I would call the church
sponsored band that plays weekafter week.
So, um, and a lot of the in thein the years that I've been at
the church I think this is acommon theme where a group of
people on their own time werejust kind of jamming and gigging
(36:41):
together at their houses andjust loved music, and then they
would volunteer and sign up tobe in a church band, and so it
was kind of natural to see themgrow as young people into that
area.
So that's kind of what I'mworking on right now.
You can ask, renee, this hasbeen probably my thing.
I'm praying for the most rightnow.
I need another generation topick up a guitar.
(37:05):
I need a couple keyboardplayers right now, because the
Lord's working on me in a coupleof different areas right now
and it's.
You know, I need some more helpin my area and it would help me
to move forward, but I believeGod will provide.
Amen, absolutely Indeed.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
You know, as leaders of the choir and band, both of
you must have some level ofadministrative responsibilities.
This is a twofold question.
Tell us how your choir and bandare administrated and then,
when it comes to the finalselection for songs that are
going to be ministered, whomakes that final decision and
how is that decision made?
Speaker 6 (37:43):
Renee, it's administration is your gift.
Why don't you start with that?
Speaker 5 (37:49):
Yeah, so there's a team of four of us that work on
the music.
Ben and I are like the headoverseers, and then we have a
team, a married couple, under us, that work with us.
So the four of us do a lot ofthe administration, um kathleen,
who is um the wife, she, her,and I do a lot of the paperwork
and not papers, but everythingum the digital stuff.
(38:13):
We pick the songs and then weare, we upload it, we use the
box as a place for all of ourfile sharing.
Yeah, file sharing.
You know we pick the song andwe create the agenda and put an
agenda in the box.
All the choir members areconnected to the box in the
agenda as a link that bringsthem to the folder that has all
(38:33):
the stuff in it that they need.
We'll record the parts and putthe parts in there if it's a
more difficult song, so thatthey can come to the rehearsal.
You know, ready to go, put MP3in there, the chord sheet, lyric
sheet, everything in there.
So that's pretty much what wedo for administration.
We come up with, like this iswhat we're rehearsing, this
(38:55):
practice, this is what we'regoing over, and come up with
like this is what we'rerehearsing this practice, this
is what we're going over.
And we have we like havecalendars, you know, like this
is what we're going to do thisweek, this is what we're going
to do this week.
You know just to, so we can beprepared for special events at
backup plans, et cetera.
Speaker 6 (39:06):
So yeah, yeah, so I think she's um being we
understand a little bit.
So it's a lot more than this.
So that there we, we.
It sounds really simple, but Imean, this is we plan like we.
(39:33):
It's funny we have this runningjoke at the beginning of the
summer that in two months wehave to start planning for
christmas.
Um, so administration is likelike you have.
Yeah, it's like you, you'relooking for stuff.
Uh, way, way far ahead, and I Ithink something that's really
helped us is that there's.
(39:54):
It sounds really simple, butagendas really do matter in our
world For people to know whattime to arrive, what song we're
going to work on, the order inwhich we're going to do the song
.
It provides a certain amount ofcomfort for the members to know
just what they got to do thesong.
It provides a certain amount ofcomfort for the members to know
just what they got to do andwith the file sharing, we can
(40:16):
also look in if we are unsure.
If our soloists don't know themusic, we can see when they log
in.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
So all these things really do help.
Now, who does the recording andhow do you do them?
Speaker 5 (40:27):
So usually what we'll do is we have our like leads
that know that they work.
They're really good at findingthe parts, so, yeah, finding the
harmonies, and so we'll havelike a rehearsal and they'll
just simply record it on theirphone.
We're really simple for recordtheir part on your phone, upload
(40:48):
it to the box and label what,who, which, which choir, which
part it is, and the choir knowswhich part to go to to find
their part.
Yeah, it's pretty simple,gotcha.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Well, no two rehearsals are the same.
Some start with warmups, somestart with a devotional, some
start with a combination of thetwo.
Some people get right into themusic, the hard part of the
music.
Tell us how you guys conductyour rehearsals.
Speaker 5 (41:12):
So you know we pray together.
You know we usually try to dothe songs by like some faster,
some slower.
Give it like a little bit of,give them a few breaks in
between, you know, the harderstuff, don't save it all for the
end when they're tired.
Or you know like kind of dostuff like that and usually we
(41:33):
try to.
If it's a newer song we willtry to maybe do the harder stuff
.
But usually we just do like Ato Z, like just go through it
and try it and then stop when itgets hard, stop if there's
something we need to work on.
That way it kind of gives us anidea of how they're doing with
it.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
That's just yeah, ben , I'm sure your rehearsals are
different, but how did they lineup with what the choir is
learning so?
Speaker 6 (42:00):
we work on before the choir comes in.
We're probably working on thesong for two to three weeks if
it's new.
There's a lot of repeat.
So when you say the term, uh,you know eight, be ready, have
eight songs, be eight songs deep.
I know exactly what you mean,because there are songs we've
been playing for months now thatwe have yet to do, and for the
(42:20):
musicians sometimes they're likewe're still doing that and it's
like, yeah, we're still doingthat, um, but anything we try to
do no more than two brand newsongs, um in a in a practice,
and that means just a runthrough.
If it's the first time thechoir's ever sung it, we
actually play the originalrecording for them, um, from the
(42:42):
artist we got it from.
So before even the musiciansplay it, we actually sometimes
feel out, do they even like thissong interesting?
And we play it for them and wecan get a good feeling before we
ever sink a lot of work in ifit's even connecting with them.
But it's very layered.
I mentioned earlier that wearrive at 630, just the
musicians and the main leaders,and then we work for half an
(43:06):
hour to 45 minutes and then asoloist will come in and then
the choir shows up usually 45minutes into that practice.
Um, and we we've discoveredthat if, as mieta said, if the
musicians got it together,practice does not have to be two
hours.
Practice when I was growing upwas two hours long every time,
um, and it was the whole grouptogether stumbling and bumbling
(43:27):
through it.
Now we do it where the choircomes in and works probably for
30 to 45 minutes at the most andthey can go home and we get the
same amount of work done.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
It's just it's just approach.
I feel guilty because I don'tdo rehearsals less than two
hours.
But I will say this, and I sayit often, that it is the choir
director's responsibility thatthe choir leaves rehearsal
saying it was good to have beenthere, yeah.
(43:59):
And so, whether it's two hoursor 45 minutes, you know, or an
hour and a half, when people aregoing through the hustle and
bustle of coming from work andgetting to the church to give us
their undivided attention, forwhatever period of time that is,
I think the choir director hasa full responsibility to put in
the work, to making sure thattheir time is well spent, having
(44:23):
learned something, feelingaccomplished and having enjoyed
the fellowship.
Speaker 4 (44:29):
Ben, you said something that got my hair
standing on the back of my neck.
With musicians in particular,you find it sometimes helpful to
pick a song and just kind ofsit and listen to it from the
original artist, and listen toit with the musicians, just to
(44:50):
see if this music resonates atall, not just and I'm going to,
I'm going to add to that notjust spiritually, but just
musically, I guess and Greg, youcan help me with this word
maybe musically, phonetic,phonetically.
Does it make sense?
Does it?
Because there I know a fewmusicians that are have a hard
(45:14):
time dealing or working withlearning some of the music that
we, we sing nowadays, and a lotof times they say things like
well, that doesn't make sensemusically, you know, it doesn't
make sense.
It doesn't make sense mus, itdoesn't make sense Musical
theory, theoretically, itdoesn't make sense, you know.
So they, they find it hard toeven subscribe to learning
(45:39):
because it doesn't make sensemusically, and so I think it is
an awesome thing.
I never thought about it, butI'm gonna do it now.
Sit with it, you know, sit withthe musicians and let's listen
to it first before we start tolearn it.
You know, kind of listen to it.
That is an awesome thing.
I never thought to do that,because I'm just used to
throwing songs to people and saylearn that we're going to get
(46:01):
to it, just learn that.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Well, I think when a musician says that it doesn't
make sense.
That's code for oh.
Speaker 4 (46:09):
I know it is it's code.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
I'll just leave it right there.
It's cold.
Speaker 4 (46:15):
I get that.
I do, I get that.
Wow, that's amazing.
I'm going to have to.
I'm going to have to use that,ben, thank you.
Speaker 6 (46:27):
Yeah.
So, greg, I wanted to back upsomething you had said.
So we have a little bit of adifferent makeup with our choir.
We actually have two differentgroups.
Our choir sings one song a weekand our worship team carries
the bulk of the singing at thisparticular time.
(46:48):
Now, me and my wife have goneback and forth with this quite a
few times on how to incorporatethe choir into the whole
worship service, and it's one ofthe things that's just unique
about our setting.
The choir is one job for the 43years I've been in the building
has been to sing right beforethe preacher preaches.
(47:08):
So they have lessresponsibility than our worship
singers, so they don't requirethe same amount of time.
Our worship team meets actuallytwice a week Sunday morning
right before we actually stepout, and then Thursday night we
go through the a week a week ofsong lists.
So it's a we're a little bitdifferent than most we're.
(47:29):
We're kind of I'm continuallytrying to get the choir involved
into the worship service moreum, but it's.
We have a volunteer army, um,and our church makeup is very um
.
Everybody does a lot of things,um, and we've talked about this
, uh, greg, a little bit um,when some of our singers are are
(47:49):
Sunday school teachers areinvolved in the tech side, and
so they may not even sing withus every time the choir sings,
and so it creates some differentchallenges.
But everybody is reallyinvolved in just about
everything they can be involvedin, but it creates some
different hurdles and challengesfor us as well.
Hopefully that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Sure.
Well, let me speak to each ofthose points briefly.
The choir needs to understandthat even though they may not be
leading the song service, theyare still an intricate part of
the worship experience.
Sometimes the congregation onlyneeds to see them engaged in
worship and that encourages thecongregation to enter in.
Again, the choir needs toremember that they have a
(48:30):
threefold ministry, if you will,during the context of the
worship service and in the wordsof Dr James Mabson, he says
that the choir ministers to Godwith the people, ministers to
God for the people and thenministers to the people, and
that's typically the case duringthe typical worship service.
So the choir needs tounderstand the fact that, even
(48:52):
though they're not leading theworship service at that moment,
they are participating.
They are encouraging theworship team, they're
encouraging themselves, becausethe worship at that point is
still unto God with the people.
I think we get into a dangeroussituation when the choir feels
that they're only effective orthey're only doing ministry when
they are singing a choirspecial.
(49:12):
So let's make sure that theyunderstand that that's not the
case.
And then the second thing isand this may sound a little
direct, but let me complete thethought is that people will make
time for what they want to do.
If it's a ball game, we'll maketime.
If it's shopping, we'll maketime.
If it's surfing the internet,we'll make time.
(49:33):
If it's just sitting around thedinner table at a restaurant,
we make time for what we want todo, and I think it is the same
when it comes to the house ofGod.
We have to choose to make timefor what we want to do.
So for those who want to be inthe choir and feel like they're
called to the ministry of music,then they make the time to do
(49:53):
that.
Now I'm not saying that thesacrifice of your family or your
marriage or your job or yourhealth or even your finances,
but there is some sacrifice inthat I'm going to give an hour
to rehearsal or I'm going togive two hours a week to
rehearsal, whether that's at thechurch or whether that's an
hour in my own time and an hourat the church.
We make the time for what wewant to do.
(50:15):
Now I said that first because ifthe choir then is going to be
more involved in the worshipservice on Sunday and that
they're singing more songs,there's the what we call the
sermonic selection before thesermon and sometimes the
offertory song, which is theoffering before the sermon,
before the sermonic selection.
So sometimes that's at leasttwo songs that the choir is
(50:35):
preparing each week.
That may require more time interms of rehearsal.
So the choir and the band forthat matter, will have to
understand that it may requirejust a little more time in
rehearsal in order to prepareenough songs to have in our
arsenal to sing at any pointduring the service on Sunday,
whether that's an offertory songand the, if you will, sermonic
(50:58):
selection.
That's at least two songs thathappen in the service.
That can't always bepredetermined, because when it
is, then there really is no flowand we've all experienced no
flow in the service beforebecause we've sang the wrong
song at the wrong time.
And then finally and I totallyunderstand this choir members
who are involved in variousareas of ministry.
(51:20):
You've got volunteers, but theyare Sunday school teachers,
some of them are youth leaders,some of them are elders, et
cetera.
At some point it may benecessary to ask choir members
to commit to just being involvedin choir.
Now, I know that's a trickyproposition and not every choir
or not every church can even dothis.
But if the music ministry isgrowing and you're trying to
(51:42):
grow it.
You may be approaching the timeor at the time where you have
to ask choir members to committo just this, so that you don't
sacrifice your marriages or yourrelationship with your children
or you don't sacrifice too muchmore of your time or your
health because they're pulled inso many different areas.
You'll know just from sittingin rehearsal how many people are
(52:02):
actually rehearsing outside ofrehearsal and that is often an
indicator or an indication ofhow much time people actually
have to commit to the musicministry.
And that's a big pill toswallow when you're asking
people for more time to one areaof ministry and reconsidering
the other one.
I know teachers who areteachers at heart will want to
(52:22):
do both.
People who are involved in otherareas of ministry may be doing
it because family did it orbecause there's a need, and in
the church we know that peoplewill say yes oftentimes say yes
because they see a need.
It's a genuine yes, but thenlife catches up to them and they
realize they've overextendedthemselves.
So with music ministry it'ssuch a huge responsibility and
(52:44):
such a huge commitment, eventhough two hours of your week
seems like nothing compared tohow much time we would spend
watching television or sittingat a ball game, but it is a huge
responsibility nonetheless.
And it may seem to them likeyou're asking them for an arm or
a leg, but if they stop toseriously consider how much of
their time during the week wentto other things, this is unto
(53:06):
the Lord.
This is the music ministry.
It is a huge part of theworship experience and I think
this is an okay request.
And you'll know where the yeasare and the nays are, and I
don't think anybody should feelcondemned if they feel like they
can't give you an extra hour oran extra 30 minutes a week, and
you shouldn't feel condemned byasking for that.
So let me summarize this longreply to your comments.
(53:30):
One, the choir is more involvedin the worship service than
they probably realize.
However, if they're going tostart singing more choir songs
during the worship service, thatmay require more rehearsals and
may require more learning,because you have to have more
songs in your repertoire to beable to pull out at any moment
that is suitable for thatservice.
(53:52):
And then, thirdly, with that,that may require more rehearsal
time, whether that's morerehearsal time during the week
or asking them to commit morerehearsal time personally, so
that when they do come torehearsal they have learned the
material.
Don't you go back and say, gregThomas, you should be
committing more time to thehouse.
Speaker 6 (54:12):
I got it recorded, man, it's recorded.
Speaker 4 (54:17):
Do you, do you see in the future the choir
participating more in theworship service other than just
the sermonic selection, if youwill?
Speaker 5 (54:30):
than just the sermonic selection, if you will.
I can definitely see that couldhappen, where we would maybe
sing more than one song beforethe message.
I think we'd have to have somerestructuring in our services
and the way we do things to beable to accommodate them being
up there the whole time.
As far as, like, say, we openup up the service and they were,
(54:53):
they were up on the platform,we wouldn't be able to
necessarily do that at this timedoesn't mean that would never
happen.
The our church loves the choir,so if we ever did that, I know
that it would just like beamazing.
The choir is a we're a greatteam and have great camaraderie,
so if we were able to one daydo that, that would be amazing.
(55:16):
But, um, definitely singing,you know, we could definitely
probably add to what we're doing.
We used to do the choir used tosing on sunday morning, sunday
nights and wednesday nights.
We have three services a weekand the choir used to do more
singing.
Um, but we kind of like cutback on some things on Wednesday
nights and cut back on Sundaynights.
Not because of the choir isjust like restructuring our
(55:36):
services.
So it ended up being where thechoir just does the one song
before the message, butdefinitely we could grow that.
Speaker 1 (55:46):
So the song before the sermon, which again is often
referred to as the sermonicselection, and ironically in a
lot of churches that song hasnothing to do with the sermon.
But does the pastor or whoeveris speaking ever tell you what
they're preaching so that yoursong lines up with that message?
Speaker 5 (56:05):
I wish.
No, they don't.
I mean very, very rarely doesthat ever happen.
That usually it, you know,organically, the Lord just does
it.
I mean I'm not saying it's,it's.
We've failed and ever sungsomething that was totally off.
(56:25):
I think you know spirit of God,you know you prayerfully pick
and you choose your selection.
But those times it does line upperfectly.
It's like yeah but no but um no, nobody tells us.
Speaker 1 (56:40):
I see, all the more reason to have several songs in
your arsenal ready to go.
So yeah, they'd say well, thisis what I'm preaching.
I'd like you to find a song, orsometimes the.
The pastor will say, hey,here's the song I'd like you to
do yeah, and that's fine.
I mean we are under authority.
We're taking that and we'regoing to do it to the best of
our ability.
But then there are other timeswhen pastor just trusts the
(57:03):
music ministry and that's reallywhere you want to be.
You want that kind ofrelationship where they trust
the spirit in you, ofrelationship where they trust
the spirit in you, trust thatyou're not going to come with
something totally disconnected.
Speaker 4 (57:16):
Uh, and that you're hearing from god as well?
Yeah, I'm gonna.
I promise this is well, here'smy comic relief, right?
So, um, has there ever been atime where the song that you
picked for the sermonicselection just totally bombed?
Speaker 5 (57:34):
that is, wait a minute, renee made it hard to
preach because I've been there,I know that happens, like I wish
I, I wish I could say no, butyeah, yeah yeah, see, we don't
often tell the truth about that.
We don't, we don't it hashappened, oh, and you go to your
(57:57):
seat and you're like, oh mygosh thank you for sharing,
renee.
Speaker 4 (58:06):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (58:13):
No, getting that one back.
Speaker 5 (58:14):
No no.
Speaker 6 (58:16):
So Renee probably doesn't even want me to bring
this up, but we had a, she hadan, we all had an experience.
I heard how old were we.
Renee, keep me near the cross.
Speaker 5 (58:29):
Remember that when we sang that song reminding me,
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 (58:39):
The thing about it is we were so young and there was
so much to learn on our end thatwhen it didn't work, we really
blamed ourselves for it andlearned a lot.
What we found is it's verycommon for ministry to be so
disconnected from leadership attimes, and so what we've learned
over the years is that we we'renot operating outside of, you
(59:01):
know, on our own, but we reallyneed to collaborate more to the
best we can and to be in tunewith what's happening in the
church, and it just makes life alot easier when we're all on
the same page.
We're not mind.
Readers praise the Lord.
So any direction always helps,but you know, ministry is
together.
It's not everybody operating intheir silos, but we should
(59:23):
connect.
Speaker 1 (59:24):
That is the perfect closer to this podcast.
Ben Renee, thanks for joiningus, mietta and Dorian, as usual.
And to our listeners rememberto subscribe, like and share.
And then finally remember, ifwe ever put the messenger before
the message, we have failed topresent an unblemished gospel.
I'm Greg Thomas.
Join us again next time here inthe Choir Room.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.