Episode 106: Why (and how) Abilene Christian University is building a nuclear reactor (Doug Robison)
January 9, 2025 • 48 mins
Since it opened almost 119 years ago, Abilene Christian University (ACU) has been educating, forming, and training Christian evangelists who spread the news of Jesus Christ around the world.
This year, however, the university is launching something that has the potential to change the world and save lives in a surprising new way.
ACU is building and preparing to fire up an experimental nuclear reactor that is cheaper, cleaner, safer and more scalable than any other kind of nuclear technology available in the world today. And it has the potential to cure cancer, eliminate existing nuclear waste and provide energy to the poorest regions of the world.
In this episode, you'll hear form lifelong Texas oil man (and nuclear convert) Doug Robison, who is on the ACU board of trustees and a principal investor in the university's nuclear experiment. He explains both the how and the why of ACU's nuclear turn and how this is an extension of the university's Christian mission.
Link to the American Nuclear Society's report on the ACU nuclear reactor
Link to the NEXT Lab at Abilene Christian University
Link to Natura Resources (the company Doug Robison founded to invest in the ACU nuclear experiment)
Find more news and stories at christianchronicle.org
Donate to support this ministry of "information and inspiration" at christianchronicle.org/donate
Send your comments, ideas, and suggestions to podcast@christianchronicle.org
Attend the 52nd Annual Caribbean Lectureship in Barbados this July 13 - 16, 2025. Learn more and register at caribbeanlectureship.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Holly LInden (00:03):
Welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast.
We're bringing you the storyshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
Here's our host, BT Irwin.
BT Irwin (00:14):
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
Colleges and universities thatgrew up on our Church of Christ
family tree have always beenpurposeful about graduating
Christian men and women who areable, ready and willing to serve
the church and humanity forChrist.
(00:36):
For example, it's common tohear folks in our Church of
Christ community talk about theministers and missionaries that
come from this college or thatuniversity with roots and ties
in our tradition.
But one of those universities,abilene Christian University in
Abilene, texas, is about to beknown for an entirely new
contribution to the world.
Some would even say asurprising contribution.
(00:57):
Can you guess what it is?
It's cheaper, cleaner, safernuclear power that even comes
with the potential to do thingslike cure cancer and eliminate
the world's stockpiles ofnuclear waste.
Now, doesn't that sound like aministry worth pursuing?
It's not a pipe dream.
(01:20):
Abilene Christian University andits partners a permit to build
an experimental liquid-fueledmolten salt nuclear reactor at
its campus in Abilene, the onlyone of its kind in the Western
Hemisphere.
That reactor is underconstruction and will come
online sometime in thenot-too-distant future.
What is a liquid-fueled moltensalt nuclear reactor, and why is
(01:42):
it such a big deal and why isAbilene Christian University
doing this?
We thought it best to bring insomeone who can answer those
questions for us, so we haveDoug Robison with us on the show
today.
Doug serves on the board oftrustees for Abilene Christian
University and is founder andpresident of Natura Resources,
the company he set up to fundACU's reactor and to find
(02:03):
commercial applications for itin the global marketplace.
Doug got involved with hisproject after 40 years in the
West Texas oil and natural gasbusiness, where he was
co-founder and president of EXLPetroleum.
Doug, how does a West Texas oilman get into nuclear energy?
Doug Robison (02:19):
and that's a little bit non-facetious
actually.
The a little bit longer answeris that I've been in the oil and
gas industry for 40 yearsactually three generations and
(02:41):
in 2004, governor Rick Perryhere in Texas appointed me to
the Texas Energy PlanningCouncil and I chaired the Energy
Supply Committee.
And what the governor asked usto do in 2004, so 20 years ago
was how do we maximize energyproduction in Texas?
And so I had a fairly largecommittee and we would hold
hearings around the state once amonth and talking to every
aspect of energy in Texas.
Well, one of those was the kindof burgeoning emerging wind
(03:05):
industry who were making claimsthat they were going to replace
the oil and gas industry, and somy committee issued a finding
it was really a hypotheticalfinding that if you were going
to replace hydrocarbons forpower, and the hydrocarbons
primarily being coal and naturalgas, the only technology that
(03:28):
could do that would be nuclear,kind of pushing it back against
this claim that wind wouldeffectively replace oil and gas
and coal.
And then we went on with ourstudy.
It really wasn't what we werereporting to the governor's
office then, and my company, exlPetroleum, was at the forefront
of revolutionizing the oil andgas industry in the Permian
(03:50):
Basin through hydraulicfracturing if you've heard of
fracking, so that was developingin the early 2000s.
And so I had thought aboutnuclear 20 years ago, but it
wasn't really at the forefront.
Nuclear 20 years ago, but itwasn't really at the forefront,
it wasn't an energy source thatwe were relying on like we need
(04:11):
to rely on it today, and so itwasn't in the forefront.
Well then, in 2017, I thought Iwas retiring from the oil and
gas industry 40 years is enoughfor anybody and so we were in
Midland Texas, the heart of thePermian Basin, which is the
heart of the oil industry in thecountry, and we moved to
Abilene to be near kids andgrandkids, and I was sitting in
(04:35):
a lecture, a meeting of thePresident's Venture Council.
We're supporters of AbileneChristian.
Both of our kids went toundergrad there.
Supporters of Abilene ChristianBoth of our kids went to
undergrad there and the PVC is aorganization of supporters that
provide funding to PresidentSchubert, the president of
Abilene Christian, to kind ofpursue some opportunities on
(04:57):
behalf of the university.
And so Dr Rusty Tile, who Ithink has spoken with the
Christian Chronicle before, drRusty Towle, who I think has
spoken with the ChristianChronicle before was making a
presentation on this interestingresearch that they're doing on
molten salt reactors, and hetalked about how this technology
could help meet the world'senergy needs, could lift people
(05:18):
out of poverty Most of the worldlives in poverty because they
don't have enough energy how wecould desalinate, purify water
Most of the world does not havesafe drinking water and also,
because it's a liquid fieldreactor, we can harvest isotopes
radioisotopes that are used inimaging and even curing cancer.
(05:40):
And so I was thinking theresitting in the meeting room that
wow, this is pretty amazingtechnology.
So I met.
Dr Tal in the back of the room.
We'd never met and he didn'tknow me from Adam.
And I said, dr Tal, introducemyself.
If you were fully funded, whatcould you do?
And he didn't have an answer.
(06:01):
He wasn't expecting thatquestion and so he asked for two
weeks.
We got together two weeks laterand he said here's what this
research project could look likeif we're fully funded.
I said you're funded, let's go.
And that was a multimilliondollar gift out of my foundation
.
It was a donation to ACU.
It was not.
We were not entering into acommercial enterprise.
We were not entering into acommercial enterprise and kind
(06:24):
of didn't forget about it.
But, you know, went on thinking, ok, now I'm going to move
toward retirement.
Well, that gift led to.
Governor Perry is now secretaryof energy under the Trump
administration.
So now Secretary Perry heard ofthe research, sent some top
leadership down from Departmentof Energy about a year later and
(06:45):
they toured the labs there inAbilene and saw the research and
basically said you have no ideahow important this is that
you're working on.
Would you fly to DC?
And so Dr Schubert, dr Tal andmyself flew up to DC in January
2019, and the Department ofEnergy said we need you to build
this reactor 2019.
(07:05):
And the Department of Energysaid we need you to build this
reactor.
We need to beat China, we needto beat Russia.
This is critical technology.
And we held our hands up andsaid, okay, we'll do that.
And so we walked out of theroom, actually, and Dr Schubert
looked at me and said Doug, doyou have any idea how we're
going to do this?
And I said, bill, I don't havea clue.
And he asked me to figure itout.
So what we did?
We got a letter of support fromthe DOE programmatic letter of
(07:27):
support in November of 2019.
That really launched theproject.
In the meanwhile, I wasfiguring out how we were going
to do this.
What we ended up doing is Icame out of retirement so that
lasted about seven months Stoodup Natura Resources to be the
corporate project because nowwe're talking about a commercial
(07:49):
effort, right and entered intoDiscover Sponsored Research
Agreements that most of theintellectual knowledge about
advanced nuclear lay in theuniversities, and so we, natura
Resources, which is the companythat I formed to fund this
project, we entered intosponsored research agreements.
(08:11):
We created a research consortiumthat had never been done before
.
So we've done a lot of thingsthat have never been done before
.
You're going to hear that morethan once as we talk and that
was comprised of AbileneChristian University being the
host of the reactor, theUniversity of Texas at Austin,
texas A&M University and GeorgiaInstitute of Technology.
(08:31):
And so Natura put 30, a littleover 30 million dollars in
sponsored research agreements inthose four universities and
said, ok, we're going to build areactor.
And said, okay, we're going tobuild a reactor, and I carried
the project out of my pocket forfour or five years, so kind of
recycling oil and gas intoadvanced nuclear literally.
(08:53):
And we now have other investorsin Natura, and so that's how I
got into it and we can talkabout what we're doing.
But that's how I migrated fromoil and gas into nuclear.
It was a series of what's thatsaying.
I can't remember Interestingcircumstances or something.
I don't remember the littlequip, but that's what happened.
BT Irwin (09:14):
And that's how Doug stopped being retired right
there.
Doug Robison (09:18):
That's right.
BT Irwin (09:20):
So, before we go any further, I think we need to talk
about this nuclear reactor.
Why is it such a big deal?
Why has it not been done before?
Explain what makes this projectso special.
Doug Robison (09:34):
Okay, well, first of all, it has been done before.
So it's a molten salt cooled,liquid-fueled reactor and we'll
talk about that real quickly.
And this is where having dr talon the phone would be on the on
the interview would be great,um, but I've learned enough to
be dangerous.
Uh, they built a molten saltreactor at okra national lab
(09:56):
that's in knoxville, tennessee,back in the 1960s.
It operated for about fiveyears.
Uh, the united states in the 60sthis is before your time was we
were engaged in an arms racewith the soviet union and, uh,
the us was, uh, following worldwar ii and so forth was really
(10:20):
advancing into nucleartechnology.
The customer for nucleartechnology was the Department of
Defense, not the Department ofEnergy, if you will and Admiral
Rickover was building a nuclearNavy.
He wanted reactors forsubmarines and for aircraft
(10:42):
carriers and also wanted to beable to enrich uranium to
plutonium for warheads.
It was a military purpose, andmolten salt reactors, being a
liquid fuel reactor, perhaps,was not.
The next was not the besttechnology for a, say, an
aircraft carrier tossing on thewaves of the ocean, and it's
very difficult, if notimpossible, to enrich the fuel
(11:06):
in a molten salt reactor toplutonium for warheads, and so
it's as if the first vehicle youbuilt was a tank for a
battlefield and you put treadson it and armor and maybe some
weapons.
But today we don't need military, we're talking about civilian
use, we need energy, and so themolten salt technology has come
(11:29):
back to the forefront as okay,maybe this is not a military
application of nucleartechnology, but it's a really,
really interesting applicationof nuclear technology for
civilian purposes.
So it has been done before.
It was built in the 60s anddemonstrated what we have done,
(11:51):
and I'll take a step back BT onwhy this is important now.
The rise of the climate agenda.
You know, I think in my careerI've seen three or four
significant energy events.
The first, I would say, was therise of OPEC in the 70s, and
what that meant was that, priorto that time, the price of crude
(12:14):
oil in the world was set by theTexas Railroad Commission
through their allowable scheduleand with the price of crude oil
in the world was set by theTexas Railroad Commission
through their allowable schedule, and with the rise of OPEC, the
US lost that, if you will, andwe saw foreign control and a lot
of foreign influence on energy.
So that would be one energyevent.
The other would be the war inUkraine.
Just recently has really wokenthe world up into energy in a
(12:38):
lot of different ways, but Ithink the most significant was
the rise of the climate agendaand really beginning probably 15
years ago.
So when we wrote that report in2004, the hypothetical about
wind energy we weren't worriedabout removing coal from the
grid because nobody was thinkingabout doing that.
We got 70% of our power fromcoal.
(12:59):
Why would we take it off thegrid?
Well, with the climate agendaand the concerns about climate
change, coal has been and isbeing removed from the grid.
So how are we going to replacethat power?
So it became not just aninteresting technology, it
actually became a necessity thatwe find and the statement we
(13:20):
back made in 2004 that if you'regoing to replace hydrocarbons
again coal and natural gas forpower, you got to go nuclear.
We don't have any othertechnology that could do it, and
so that's that's now the pressto move forward, that if I'm
rambling you can interrupt, butI think I'm answering your
question.
So it has been done.
(13:41):
It needs to be done again.
What is different about thistechnology?
Real, simply two areas.
What we think of nuclearreactors are light water
reactors.
So we're familiar with the bigdome, big pressure dome, huge
facility that is awater-cooleded, solid-fueled
reactor and it's a technologythat I think we have close to
(14:05):
100 of those around the nation.
It's the safest, cleanest formof energy that we have in the
country.
But it is 60-year-oldtechnology and again, it was
more of a military type ofapplication.
But we just took what Rickoverwere using in aircraft carriers
and submarines and kind ofdeployed them on land for power.
So a light water reactor, afission process.
(14:28):
All a reactor does is generateheat.
It does it through the fissionprocess.
You take a fissionable materialsuch as uranium, you put it
inside of the fuel rod, acladding, and that's your first
layer of containment, and so youhave the fission process
happening.
But these particles are flyingnear the speed of light.
(14:49):
They're missing each other,they're just radioactive.
You put it into a moderator,say graphite, and that slows the
fission particles down.
It slows the nuclear particlesdown so they begin to collide.
When they collide, they fission, they split.
When they split, they create anextra particle that causes
another fission and then youhave a sustained chain reaction.
(15:12):
Every time that fission happens,it creates heat.
A tremendous amount of heathappens.
It creates heat.
A tremendous amount of heat.
You know millions of times thedensity of power created from
any other energy source.
So you have to take that heat.
Then that's being created inthe moderator and you transfer
that heat to where you can turnwater into steam.
(15:35):
That turns a turbine.
That makes electricity.
Okay, that's what reactors do.
It's a really really efficient,very, very hot oven that
creates heat that we turn intoelectricity.
Well, the two technologies thereis.
You have a solid fuel core andyou have water as your heat
transfer.
It's like a radiator in yourcar.
(15:56):
It's moving your radiator fluidmoves heat from the engine
block through the radiator intothe atmosphere and just
circulates.
It's the same concept A solidfuel reactor.
The disadvantage there is thatthe fuel that is in that
cladding you would burn maybe 3%to 5% of the fuel that's in the
cladding before that fuel rodbegins to deteriorate, because
(16:20):
it is your first level ofcontainment.
When that deterioration begins,the fuel rod has to be pulled
and replaced, and that nowbecomes spent nuclear waste what
we call spent nuclear waste.
95% to 97% of the fuel is stillin the rod, but because the rod
has deteriorated now, what arewe going to do with it?
(16:40):
I mean, are we going to bury it?
Or, you know, we have to put itsomewhere for 100,000 years,
and so that's our waste issue,and that's one of the usually
three concerns people have aboutnuclear reactors.
We do not use a fuel rod.
Well, let me go to the nexttechnology.
I'll talk about what we so also, you're using water as his heat
(17:02):
transfer fluid, and water isvery good for that, because it
goes from a liquid to a gas.
It goes from water to steamvery easily, very quickly, and
so you can get.
When you get to that steamphase, you have pressure
expansion and you take 7000times in volume, and that's what
(17:25):
creates pressure that turnsyour turbines.
That's what you want.
Well, that steam is incrediblyhigh pressure, and if it's near
the radioactive material thinkFukushima then you could have a
steam release, which is whatthat big containment dome is to
contain.
You could have a steam releaseinto the atmosphere that has
(17:47):
radioactive material, and nowyou have a gas cloud, if you
will, in the environment.
We do not use water as ourcoolant.
Our coolant is molten salt, soit's a salt that has a melting
temperature, and I'm going touse a candle as an analogy here.
The salt is a solid.
(18:09):
It moves to a liquid at about450 degrees Celsius, so very,
very high melting point, thepoint to where the salt flashes
to a steam or to a gas, is 1,000degrees plus more.
BT Irwin (18:24):
Wow.
Doug Robison (18:25):
In fact, the point to where the salt we're using
wants to become a gas is higherthan the melting temperature of
the stainless steel of thereactor core itself.
Wow, stainless steel of thereactor core itself.
Wow, so what you have is afluid that we have to heat up to
450 degrees C to turn into aliquid.
(18:46):
That cannot become a gasbecause you never can get to the
temperature high enough forthat to happen, because if you
were to get to high temperature,the stainless steel that the
reactor core would melt as soonas the salt leaves that
containment.
We have multiple layers ofcontainment.
It freezes back into a solidonce it drops below 450 degrees.
(19:09):
So think of a candle that youheat with a flame and it becomes
a liquid, but if you drip it onthe table it instantly freezes
back into a solid, right?
BT Irwin (19:19):
Yes.
Doug Robison (19:20):
Well, that's molten salt and so it's what's
called walk-away safe, and theydescribed it at Oak Ridge back
in the 60s as that.
They were asked so what is yourcontainment if something were
to happen?
And facetiously they said well,we dig a hole and put a rock on
it, and what they meant wasthat it's not going into the
(19:40):
atmosphere, it's going from aliquid back to a solid and it's
going to sit there in whatevercontainment place you have for
it as a solid.
The second technologydifference I mentioned earlier
was liquid fuel.
So I talked about the, the, thefuel rock, right, and so the.
The problem you're burning threeto five percent.
The other 95 to 97% is nowunspent nuclear fuel.
(20:02):
And where are we going to putit?
What are we going to do with it?
Our fuel and we're using highassay, low enriched uranium for
this first reactor is in thesalt, much as you would put
sugar in coffee.
So it's not in a fuel rod, it'sin the salt.
The advantage of that is that weburn 100% of the fuel.
(20:24):
We don't have unspent nuclearfuel to be concerned with.
In fact, molten salt reactorshave the ability to take that
storage or that spent nuclearfuel that is sitting in storage
around the country.
Again, 95% to 97% of the fuelis perfectly good, sitting there
(20:46):
and to reutilize that fuel andfuel rods as fuel for molten
salt reactors which we can thenturn into electricity or water
or you know, whatever we'redoing with the process, so that
those are the two and that's whyit's called a generation four
technology.
It's it's a molten salt cooled,liquid fueled reactor and we
(21:12):
answer multiple concerns thatpeople have about safety.
We're walk away safe, becausethe worst that can happen is we
go from a liquid form to a solidform in a containment vessel.
We never get into theatmosphere and the waste issue
we do not generate the unspentnuclear fuel with our current
(21:33):
technology with our currenttechnology.
BT Irwin (21:36):
That's fantastic.
So the reactor is there amolten salt cooled reactor
anywhere on the planet right now?
Doug Robison (21:45):
We think there is the DOE.
Go back to 2019, when they saidwe need you to build this
reactor.
We need to beat China, we needto beat Russia.
China has announced that theyhave built a molten salt liquid
fuel reactor.
Ok, they were.
China was at all of the nuclearconferences in the 60s and 70s
(22:08):
and 80s, pretty much soaking upas much information as they
could get.
And then when they starteddeveloping their nuclear program
, they went radio silent.
And then when they starteddeveloping their nuclear program
, they went radio silent.
And so now we don't have muchinformation on what is going on
in China.
We have what they have said intheir press releases and so
forth, but their indication isthat they have deployed a molten
(22:37):
salt liquid fuel reactor, butwe don't.
I don't know that we have.
I don't have independentconfirmation of that.
Maybe the State Department does.
BT Irwin (22:42):
So the one that you're building at Abilene Christian,
when it comes online, it will bethe first that you know of,
maybe outside of China,certainly the first.
Doug Robison (22:54):
There's no doubt.
It will be the first since the1960s.
Wow.
BT Irwin (23:00):
How far along is construction on this reactor and
what's the process that willneed to be followed to get it
online?
Doug Robison (23:08):
You cannot build, you cannot deploy a reactor in
the United States without theapproval of the Nuclear
Regulatory Commission.
And there's some, unfortunately, there's some projects out
there that are saying they'regoing to do that.
No, you're not.
You're not going to build areactor with that NRC approval.
It's against the law.
So when we, when we started theproject in the middle of 2020,
(23:31):
the strategy was that I laid outis we have to get a license If
we're going to deploy commercialreactors to meet the needs of
the world that I laid out.
You know those kind of threemissional goals that we had we
have to have a license from theNRC because you can't deploy one
without that.
So how do we do that?
How do we get there as fast aspossible?
(23:52):
And so the researchers and wehad up to 150 at the four
universities working on theproject of researchers and we
had up to 150 at the fouruniversities working on the
project Immediately.
Really, the only goal we hadwas to get an application in
front of the Nuclear RegulatoryCommission.
So within two years, we hadfiled our application with the
Nuclear Regulatory Commissionfor a molten salt research
(24:15):
reactor.
It was docketed by the NRC.
At that time, we were only oneof two projects in the country
that had been successful ingetting an application in front
of the NRC and getting itdocketed for review.
So then what happened?
That was in August of 2022,.
So then what happened that wasin August of 2022, is we began
(24:39):
the review process with theNuclear Regulatory Commission.
They put up to 80 examiners orreviewers on the project.
They spent 15,000 man hoursreviewing the application.
The application is impressive,some 600 pages thick, so it's an
(25:00):
incredibly difficult piece oftechnical work that the group
did, and you won't hear thisoften, but but I spoke at okra
ridge national lab a couple ofweeks ago.
I was at the texas nuclearsummit in austin earlier this
week, and the statement I makepublicly is that you hear a lot
of criticism of the NRC.
From our perspective, the NRCdid exactly what they said they
(25:20):
would do, and in less time, andso what I mean by that is in
September of this year, ourpermit was approved by the
Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
We went down for a signingceremony at their headquarters
in Maryland and we had all ofour researchers from the
universities there, and it was alot of excitement.
I think the NRC was as excitedas we were, because what they
(25:44):
had just done and I say they,you know the NRC and our team we
answered over 300 questions inthat review process, so a
tremendous amount of manpower onboth sides they had when we got
that permit.
That was the firstliquid-fueled reactor ever
permitted in the history of theUnited States.
And I say that because thereactor at Oak Ridge that they
(26:08):
built in the 1960s the NRC didnot exist at that time, so the
NRC had never licensed aliquid-fueled reactor.
We had asked them to dosomething they had never done
before and it is the firstadvanced research reactor ever
licensed in the history of theUnited States.
Wow, it's a huge accomplishmentby our team and a huge
(26:28):
accomplishment by the NuclearRegulatory Commission.
BT Irwin (26:32):
Well, congratulations on that.
So is this a?
Explain it again?
When so, is this a?
Explain it again?
Your company is the commercial,the commercial side of this
right.
Who's going to own the reactor?
Will it be owned by AbileneChristian or owned by Natura, or
is it a joint venture?
How does this work out?
Doug Robison (26:53):
It's a joint venture.
It is licensed as UniversityResearch Reactor.
There's about 30 of thosearound the country.
The University of Texas has one.
I tell people in Austin I saidI don't know if you know it, but
there's a nuclear reactor rightin the middle of Austin and
most people are unaware of that.
It is UT's.
It's a light water reactor.
(27:14):
You know what we traditionallythink of.
Texas A&M has one on theircampus.
There are close to 30 otheruniversities that have research
reactors.
They're all light waterreactors.
This is a research reactor.
What is different about this andthis is what we laid out to the
DOE in 2019 when they asked usto build the reactor is that we
(27:36):
were going to utilize theDepartment of Energy's
University Research ReactorProgram, not just to build a
reactor, say a light waterreactor that you conduct
research in.
That's a neutron source, whichis what they're used for for
research and education, butwe're going to use the DOE
Research Re reactor program tobring new technology to the
(27:59):
marketplace, and the response ofthe DOE was that's genius.
That's never been done before.
And so Natura, in funding theproject to the universities and
to ICU on this project is wecollect the intellectual
property coming off of all ofthis research and then our.
(28:23):
So what our job is is to takethis technology from a research
reactor into commercial reactors.
This going to be somethingwhere students are involved and
professors alongside your ownpeople.
BT Irwin (28:58):
So how will it operate ?
Who will operate it?
And then what's going to happento the energy that it produces?
Doug Robison (29:03):
That's a great question, bt.
The operation is reallyenvisioned to be quite simple.
Now, the advantages of havingUT and A&M here as a part of our
research consortium is theyboth have reactors on campus so
they know how to, and we'vecollaborated a lot between those
universities on how to operatea reactor.
(29:24):
The operation of a molten saltreactor is envisioned to be much
simpler than a light waterreactor, because of the
technology, because of thedesign.
But the light water reactorsthat are scattered on university
campuses across the nation areoperated by students.
They're training grounds fornuclear operators.
So this will be the sameResearch will be conducted at
(29:48):
this reactor.
But unlike the other reactorsaround the nation, this reactor
in many ways is the researchproject.
It's not just a neutron sourceto provide an environment to
conduct experiments.
It itself is the experimentBecause it is a liquid-fueled
research reactor underDepartment of Energy regulations
(30:09):
.
It is a liquid fuel researchreactor under department of
energy regulations.
It is limited in power to onemegawatt thermal, so it's a very
low power reactor.
Uh, it's, it's small, it itfits on the back of a semi, so
it falls in the category ofwhat's called a small modular
reactor.
Uh, also one of therestrictions under the DOE
(30:30):
University Research ReactorProgram is it cannot be
connected to the grid, so wecannot take the heat that we
talked about earlier and convertthat into steam and generate
electricity by DOE regulation,and so that heat would just be
vented into the atmospherethrough radiators, so it's not
(30:53):
going to be a power source.
What that reactor does, it doesthree things.
It provides an advanced reactorfor research purposes between
ACU and the other threeuniversities that are a part of
this project, so it gives them atremendous research tool other
three universities that are apart of this project, so it
gives them a tremendous researchtool For Natura in our need to
(31:13):
develop commercial deployment.
It proves that we can license aliquid-fueled molten salt
reactor and we checked that boxin September.
That was a huge question mark,it's never been done before and
a lot of skepticism as if it asit could be done.
And we have proven that, yes,you can.
(31:34):
The NRC has licensed, didlicense this reactor technology.
The third thing the NuclearRegulatory Commission is the
world standard on safety andthat's really all they're
concerned with.
Is this safe?
They're not going to look atour business model and say, is
it economic or does it makesense, but they will not allow
(31:56):
you, and they should not everallow anyone, to deploy a design
of a reactor.
That is a threat to people orthe environment, so it's not
going to happen.
People are the environment, soit's not going to happen.
So, along those lines, as we'reseeing a lot of advanced
(32:20):
reactor technologies now tryingto make their way through the
process, and only three haveactually filed applications with
the NRC, so most are just whatwe call paper reactors.
It just designs on a computerscreen.
The NRC has been clear if youwant to deploy an advanced
nuclear technology at acommercial level, you have to
have operating data as to howthat technology functions.
(32:44):
They will not license based onthis is what we think is going
to happen, or here's what ourmodels show is going to happen.
That will not suffice for theirlicensing purposes.
So what they said is you haveto have a test reactor or a
demonstration reactor, which iswhat this one is for Natura.
(33:04):
That will provide the actualoperating data as to how this
reactor functions.
And so the third thing thisreactor does for Natura is it
provides the operational datawhich we may need no more than
two or three weeks actually ofoperating data to collect the
information that will supportour commercial reactor that
(33:24):
we're already moving forward,that will support our commercial
reactor that we're alreadymoving forward.
So we're doing things inparallel as we're deploying this
research demonstration reactor,we're also preparing to deploy
our commercial reactor when thisreactor, this research reactor,
goes critical, we will gatherthat data that will then feed
(33:48):
into our commercial applicationbefore the NRC and we'll have
actual operational data tosupport that application, which
is what they said they needed.
BT Irwin (33:55):
Wow, wow.
So I you know a couple of lastquestions here.
It's interesting, and thereason we're having this
interview with you, doug, onthis particular program is so
many of our audience members arefamiliar with Abilene Christian
University.
So many of our folks in ouraudience have gone to Christian
(34:16):
colleges like ACU and so youknow they remember a time when
these schools started aspreacher training schools and
Bible and ministry schools, andso we have this long arc from
how a lot of our schools startedto now we're building a nuclear
reactor at Abilene ChristianUniversity.
(34:36):
You know we've come a long way,so I wonder if you can make the
connection between you know theChristian heritage and mission
of a school like ACU and thecutting edge nuclear technology
that you're trying to bringonline soon.
Doug Robison (34:51):
Yeah, well, that makes sense.
I'm on the ACU Board ofTrustees and that question has
been asked.
And ACU I haven't mentioned.
I mentioned the license.
I have to mention BT, that theother thing that has happened is
that ACU has put $23 millioninto the Dillard Science
(35:12):
Engineering Research Center.
That facility is open.
We opened it in September oflast year and it is again the
first advanced reactor facilityin the nation.
It is the only reactor facility, advanced reactor facility.
The others are in planning thatoutside of a national laboratory
(35:35):
and so if we look at that, wehave to give the partnership
between Natura and ACU.
The partnership between myselfand Dr Phil Schubert is just
there's no way to express thecommitment on both sides, which
I think goes to the second partof your question.
So so ACU and again I'm on theboard of trustees there, so I'm
(35:58):
very familiar with with the, theoutstanding nature of that
university.
If we had Dr Tal or Dr Schuberton the line, which would be
actually Actually talking toPhil Schubert about this, would
be wonderful to get hisperspective as university
president.
Acu has become one of thecountry's outstanding
universities in a lot ofdifferent ways.
(36:24):
It is still very much abiblical-based and that biblical
tradition of preaching and soforth.
The Bible College is still verymuch at the heart of ACU.
But what has happened is thatthere has been a growing
(36:48):
investment in STEM andengineering and chemistry and
physics and so forth, and if youhaven't been on the ACU campus
for a while, you're going to seesome new buildings that weren't
there before.
And so the question the missionstatement of Abilene Christian
is to develop students, to trainstudents for Christian service
and leadership throughout theworld.
Well, if you're a Bible majoror perhaps an education major,
that's kind of easy to see.
(37:10):
How do I apply that missionstatement in my vocation?
If you're an engineer or achemist, maybe that doesn't
translate as easily.
But if you look at the missionand it's hard to overemphasize
how important the mission of howdo we meet the needs of the
world?
How do we lift people out ofpoverty?
This is Matthew 25.
(37:31):
How do we provide people foodand shelter and water and cure
cancer?
Well, this technology can dothose things.
And so the mission of the nextlab, which is nuclear
engineering, the next lab whichis Nuclear Engineering,
experimental Testing Lab, nextlab at ACU, is to really fulfill
(37:54):
that mission.
The mission of Natura Resourcesis pretty much exactly the same
thing.
And so there's a, and that iswhat got me out of the chair in
2017 to meet Dr Tal in the backof the room.
That's what prompted my giftand that's what prompted me to
come out of retirement.
I did not need another career.
(38:15):
I wasn't looking to dosomething.
I thought I had an idea of whatretirement looked like, but
this was too important not to do.
And we can meet those world'sneeds.
And we can meet those world'sneeds.
And so that mission and thatpermeates not only through ACU
(38:44):
and myself and the researchersthere the other Natura investors
.
This is a risky investment.
We're doing something that'snever been done before, and and
and lots of ways this can fail,although our our, our track
record of success is is makingthis look more and more like hey
, I think you guys are actuallygoing to pull this thing off,
but our investors kind of getthat.
That.
That, ok, maybe I can make moremoney investing in whatever,
(39:12):
but it's not.
It doesn't have the potential tohave the impact that this
technology does, and so that'swhat drives us to move as fast
as we've moved.
There's only two companies thathave permits from the NRC.
Both are taking the pathwayheavy R&D, a lot of engineering,
a lot of hard work how do weget to an application?
We've done it faster andquicker and cheaper than anybody
(39:37):
else in the history of thenuclear industry has done.
So our unique approach hasenabled us to do that, but it's
because of the mission thatwe're trying to fulfill.
So if you go into the CERTfacility, you're going to see
Matthew 25 quoted in the lobby Imean, it is at the foundation
of what we're doing and evensome of our corporate partners,
(39:57):
now that we have brought intothe project Zachary Nuclear,
zachary Engineering, a100-year-old company located in
San Antonio, texas 20,000employees, I believe.
I believe I mean just a hugethey're.
They're actually celebratingtheir 100 year anniversary this
year.
John zachary uh, owner of thatgroup, brought his team down two
(40:19):
years ago and met with meone-on-one and had heard about
what we were doing and why wewere doing it.
And john asked me is is, is themission statement really why
you're doing it?
Yes, and he asked the entireteam and luckily they all gave
the same answer.
So it's unique.
We're not just trying to saydevelop an industry or make
(40:41):
money.
We have to make money becauseif we can't deploy a technology
that will compete and thrive inthe marketplace without mandates
or subsidies, then we haven'tdeployed a technology that can
meet the needs of the world youhave to be commercially
successful to do that, and sothere's that aspect of it, but
(41:02):
that's not the core of it.
That is what we have to do, butthat's not why we're doing it.
That is what we have to do, butthat's not why we're doing it.
And so that translates.
It's what helps a chemist.
You know we haven't talkedabout medical isotopes at all
really much.
We can harvest, because it's aliquid-fueled reactor.
Whenever that fission eventhappens, bt, those isotopes are
(41:26):
created, those fragments aregenerated.
Usually they're locked insideof a fuel cell at the bottom of
a pool of water.
So some appear for a fewseconds, some for hours and days
and some for hundreds ofthousands of years.
But many of the useful ones arefairly short-lived.
Where you can't get them, theyappear and they're gone.
They're like a mist in themorning.
(41:48):
Some of those isotopes can curecancer Actinium-225, for example
.
We can harvest Actinium-225 ina liquid-fueled reactor and cure
prostate cancer.
Oh, wow, okay, that's worthpursuing.
So the chemist involved in thisproject that's what they're
working on is how do we harvestthese isotopes, how do we
(42:11):
identify them?
How do we pull them out of amolten salt fuel and then
deliver them to thepharmaceutical industry, to the
medical industry so we can curecancer.
So it's just remarkabletechnology.
And go back to your firstquestion has it been done before
?
It's been done before, we don'thave to prove it, we know it
(42:34):
works.
It just has never been licensed, which is what we just did.
So that's just.
It's really at this point thatI don't want to say crass, it's
just a function of capital.
Holly LInden (42:44):
Hmm.
Doug Robison (42:45):
The, the which, which is what we're hoping our
success will continue to attract, is the capital we need to then
develop commercial reactors andbegin to deploy them.
BT Irwin (42:56):
So last question, doug is there any chance at all that
you're going to retire again?
Doug Robison (43:13):
Yeah, well, one way or another.
Yeah, I don't, I don't knowthat.
That's a that's, that's aquestion you know I wasn't the
only one that didn't retire.
My wife also did not retire and,uh, we, we both had plans.
And uh, she, she's asked mefrom time to time and and, uh,
she, I think I've been on theroad for the last three or four
months with nonstop and she'svery tolerant but she does ask
me if you had known what thiswas going to become, would you
(43:35):
have ever gotten out of thechair in 2017?
And I have to admit, yeah, Iprobably would have.
So the people who are workingwith us at BT and kind of see
that I mean, the effort isamazing, the change is constant.
The team we have at Natura andat the universities are just
incredible.
(43:55):
We know what we're trying to do.
They say this is good for me.
You know, I wouldn't enjoyretirement.
I'm not sure people are tellingme that just because that's
what I need to hear, so we'lllet time dictate that.
I've learned I'm not the masterof my own faith and so I've
(44:16):
become comfortable with that.
So we'll see what happens.
BT Irwin (44:33):
Yes, sir, president of Natura Resources, and a major
part of bringing a liquid fuel,molten, salt-cooled nuclear
reactor to Abilene ChristianUniversity, the first in North
America since the 1960s.
And you've heard all about thattechnology here.
Doug, thank you for taking usto class today.
Doug Robison (44:45):
You're welcome, bt .
Very much appreciate it, alwaysglad to talk to you.
BT Irwin (44:49):
It's a pleasure.
We hope that something youheard in this episode encouraged
, enlightened or enriched you insome way.
If it did, please pay itforward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Recommend and review itwherever you listen to your
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Please send your comments,ideas and suggestions to podcast
(45:12):
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And don't forget our ministryto inform and inspire Christians
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So if you like the show and youwant to keep it going and make
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Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg.
Slash donate Until next time.
(45:33):
May grace and peace be yours inabundance.
Holly LInden (45:37):
The Christian Chronicle podcast is a
production of the ChristianChronicle Inc.
Informing and inspiring Churchof Christ congregations, members
and ministries around the worldsince 1943.
The Christian ChroniclesManaging Editor is Audrey
Jackson, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and President and CEO
(45:58):
Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle Podcastis written, directed, hosted
and edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan in
Detroit, michigan, usa.
Welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast.
We're bringing you the storyshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
Here's our host, BT Irwin.
BT Irwin (00:14):
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
Colleges and universities thatgrew up on our Church of Christ
family tree have always beenpurposeful about graduating
Christian men and women who areable, ready and willing to serve
the church and humanity forChrist.
(00:36):
For example, it's common tohear folks in our Church of
Christ community talk about theministers and missionaries that
come from this college or thatuniversity with roots and ties
in our tradition.
But one of those universities,abilene Christian University in
Abilene, texas, is about to beknown for an entirely new
contribution to the world.
Some would even say asurprising contribution.
(00:57):
Can you guess what it is?
It's cheaper, cleaner, safernuclear power that even comes
with the potential to do thingslike cure cancer and eliminate
the world's stockpiles ofnuclear waste.
Now, doesn't that sound like aministry worth pursuing?
It's not a pipe dream.
(01:20):
Abilene Christian University andits partners a permit to build
an experimental liquid-fueledmolten salt nuclear reactor at
its campus in Abilene, the onlyone of its kind in the Western
Hemisphere.
That reactor is underconstruction and will come
online sometime in thenot-too-distant future.
What is a liquid-fueled moltensalt nuclear reactor, and why is
(01:42):
it such a big deal and why isAbilene Christian University
doing this?
We thought it best to bring insomeone who can answer those
questions for us, so we haveDoug Robison with us on the show
today.
Doug serves on the board oftrustees for Abilene Christian
University and is founder andpresident of Natura Resources,
the company he set up to fundACU's reactor and to find
(02:03):
commercial applications for itin the global marketplace.
Doug got involved with hisproject after 40 years in the
West Texas oil and natural gasbusiness, where he was
co-founder and president of EXLPetroleum.
Doug, how does a West Texas oilman get into nuclear energy?
Doug Robison (02:19):
and that's a little bit non-facetious
actually.
The a little bit longer answeris that I've been in the oil and
gas industry for 40 yearsactually three generations and
(02:41):
in 2004, governor Rick Perryhere in Texas appointed me to
the Texas Energy PlanningCouncil and I chaired the Energy
Supply Committee.
And what the governor asked usto do in 2004, so 20 years ago
was how do we maximize energyproduction in Texas?
And so I had a fairly largecommittee and we would hold
hearings around the state once amonth and talking to every
aspect of energy in Texas.
Well, one of those was the kindof burgeoning emerging wind
(03:05):
industry who were making claimsthat they were going to replace
the oil and gas industry, and somy committee issued a finding
it was really a hypotheticalfinding that if you were going
to replace hydrocarbons forpower, and the hydrocarbons
primarily being coal and naturalgas, the only technology that
(03:28):
could do that would be nuclear,kind of pushing it back against
this claim that wind wouldeffectively replace oil and gas
and coal.
And then we went on with ourstudy.
It really wasn't what we werereporting to the governor's
office then, and my company, exlPetroleum, was at the forefront
of revolutionizing the oil andgas industry in the Permian
(03:50):
Basin through hydraulicfracturing if you've heard of
fracking, so that was developingin the early 2000s.
And so I had thought aboutnuclear 20 years ago, but it
wasn't really at the forefront.
Nuclear 20 years ago, but itwasn't really at the forefront,
it wasn't an energy source thatwe were relying on like we need
(04:11):
to rely on it today, and so itwasn't in the forefront.
Well then, in 2017, I thought Iwas retiring from the oil and
gas industry 40 years is enoughfor anybody and so we were in
Midland Texas, the heart of thePermian Basin, which is the
heart of the oil industry in thecountry, and we moved to
Abilene to be near kids andgrandkids, and I was sitting in
(04:35):
a lecture, a meeting of thePresident's Venture Council.
We're supporters of AbileneChristian.
Both of our kids went toundergrad there.
Supporters of Abilene ChristianBoth of our kids went to
undergrad there and the PVC is aorganization of supporters that
provide funding to PresidentSchubert, the president of
Abilene Christian, to kind ofpursue some opportunities on
(04:57):
behalf of the university.
And so Dr Rusty Tile, who Ithink has spoken with the
Christian Chronicle before, drRusty Towle, who I think has
spoken with the ChristianChronicle before was making a
presentation on this interestingresearch that they're doing on
molten salt reactors, and hetalked about how this technology
could help meet the world'senergy needs, could lift people
(05:18):
out of poverty Most of the worldlives in poverty because they
don't have enough energy how wecould desalinate, purify water
Most of the world does not havesafe drinking water and also,
because it's a liquid fieldreactor, we can harvest isotopes
radioisotopes that are used inimaging and even curing cancer.
(05:40):
And so I was thinking theresitting in the meeting room that
wow, this is pretty amazingtechnology.
So I met.
Dr Tal in the back of the room.
We'd never met and he didn'tknow me from Adam.
And I said, dr Tal, introducemyself.
If you were fully funded, whatcould you do?
And he didn't have an answer.
(06:01):
He wasn't expecting thatquestion and so he asked for two
weeks.
We got together two weeks laterand he said here's what this
research project could look likeif we're fully funded.
I said you're funded, let's go.
And that was a multimilliondollar gift out of my foundation
.
It was a donation to ACU.
It was not.
We were not entering into acommercial enterprise.
We were not entering into acommercial enterprise and kind
(06:24):
of didn't forget about it.
But, you know, went on thinking, ok, now I'm going to move
toward retirement.
Well, that gift led to.
Governor Perry is now secretaryof energy under the Trump
administration.
So now Secretary Perry heard ofthe research, sent some top
leadership down from Departmentof Energy about a year later and
(06:45):
they toured the labs there inAbilene and saw the research and
basically said you have no ideahow important this is that
you're working on.
Would you fly to DC?
And so Dr Schubert, dr Tal andmyself flew up to DC in January
2019, and the Department ofEnergy said we need you to build
this reactor 2019.
(07:05):
And the Department of Energysaid we need you to build this
reactor.
We need to beat China, we needto beat Russia.
This is critical technology.
And we held our hands up andsaid, okay, we'll do that.
And so we walked out of theroom, actually, and Dr Schubert
looked at me and said Doug, doyou have any idea how we're
going to do this?
And I said, bill, I don't havea clue.
And he asked me to figure itout.
So what we did?
We got a letter of support fromthe DOE programmatic letter of
(07:27):
support in November of 2019.
That really launched theproject.
In the meanwhile, I wasfiguring out how we were going
to do this.
What we ended up doing is Icame out of retirement so that
lasted about seven months Stoodup Natura Resources to be the
corporate project because nowwe're talking about a commercial
(07:49):
effort, right and entered intoDiscover Sponsored Research
Agreements that most of theintellectual knowledge about
advanced nuclear lay in theuniversities, and so we, natura
Resources, which is the companythat I formed to fund this
project, we entered intosponsored research agreements.
(08:11):
We created a research consortiumthat had never been done before
.
So we've done a lot of thingsthat have never been done before
.
You're going to hear that morethan once as we talk and that
was comprised of AbileneChristian University being the
host of the reactor, theUniversity of Texas at Austin,
texas A&M University and GeorgiaInstitute of Technology.
(08:31):
And so Natura put 30, a littleover 30 million dollars in
sponsored research agreements inthose four universities and
said, ok, we're going to build areactor.
And said, okay, we're going tobuild a reactor, and I carried
the project out of my pocket forfour or five years, so kind of
recycling oil and gas intoadvanced nuclear literally.
(08:53):
And we now have other investorsin Natura, and so that's how I
got into it and we can talkabout what we're doing.
But that's how I migrated fromoil and gas into nuclear.
It was a series of what's thatsaying.
I can't remember Interestingcircumstances or something.
I don't remember the littlequip, but that's what happened.
BT Irwin (09:14):
And that's how Doug stopped being retired right
there.
Doug Robison (09:18):
That's right.
BT Irwin (09:20):
So, before we go any further, I think we need to talk
about this nuclear reactor.
Why is it such a big deal?
Why has it not been done before?
Explain what makes this projectso special.
Doug Robison (09:34):
Okay, well, first of all, it has been done before.
So it's a molten salt cooled,liquid-fueled reactor and we'll
talk about that real quickly.
And this is where having dr talon the phone would be on the on
the interview would be great,um, but I've learned enough to
be dangerous.
Uh, they built a molten saltreactor at okra national lab
(09:56):
that's in knoxville, tennessee,back in the 1960s.
It operated for about fiveyears.
Uh, the united states in the 60sthis is before your time was we
were engaged in an arms racewith the soviet union and, uh,
the us was, uh, following worldwar ii and so forth was really
(10:20):
advancing into nucleartechnology.
The customer for nucleartechnology was the Department of
Defense, not the Department ofEnergy, if you will and Admiral
Rickover was building a nuclearNavy.
He wanted reactors forsubmarines and for aircraft
(10:42):
carriers and also wanted to beable to enrich uranium to
plutonium for warheads.
It was a military purpose, andmolten salt reactors, being a
liquid fuel reactor, perhaps,was not.
The next was not the besttechnology for a, say, an
aircraft carrier tossing on thewaves of the ocean, and it's
very difficult, if notimpossible, to enrich the fuel
(11:06):
in a molten salt reactor toplutonium for warheads, and so
it's as if the first vehicle youbuilt was a tank for a
battlefield and you put treadson it and armor and maybe some
weapons.
But today we don't need military, we're talking about civilian
use, we need energy, and so themolten salt technology has come
(11:29):
back to the forefront as okay,maybe this is not a military
application of nucleartechnology, but it's a really,
really interesting applicationof nuclear technology for
civilian purposes.
So it has been done before.
It was built in the 60s anddemonstrated what we have done,
(11:51):
and I'll take a step back BT onwhy this is important now.
The rise of the climate agenda.
You know, I think in my careerI've seen three or four
significant energy events.
The first, I would say, was therise of OPEC in the 70s, and
what that meant was that, priorto that time, the price of crude
(12:14):
oil in the world was set by theTexas Railroad Commission
through their allowable scheduleand with the price of crude oil
in the world was set by theTexas Railroad Commission
through their allowable schedule, and with the rise of OPEC, the
US lost that, if you will, andwe saw foreign control and a lot
of foreign influence on energy.
So that would be one energyevent.
The other would be the war inUkraine.
Just recently has really wokenthe world up into energy in a
(12:38):
lot of different ways, but Ithink the most significant was
the rise of the climate agendaand really beginning probably 15
years ago.
So when we wrote that report in2004, the hypothetical about
wind energy we weren't worriedabout removing coal from the
grid because nobody was thinkingabout doing that.
We got 70% of our power fromcoal.
(12:59):
Why would we take it off thegrid?
Well, with the climate agendaand the concerns about climate
change, coal has been and isbeing removed from the grid.
So how are we going to replacethat power?
So it became not just aninteresting technology, it
actually became a necessity thatwe find and the statement we
(13:20):
back made in 2004 that if you'regoing to replace hydrocarbons
again coal and natural gas forpower, you got to go nuclear.
We don't have any othertechnology that could do it, and
so that's that's now the pressto move forward, that if I'm
rambling you can interrupt, butI think I'm answering your
question.
So it has been done.
(13:41):
It needs to be done again.
What is different about thistechnology?
Real, simply two areas.
What we think of nuclearreactors are light water
reactors.
So we're familiar with the bigdome, big pressure dome, huge
facility that is awater-cooleded, solid-fueled
reactor and it's a technologythat I think we have close to
(14:05):
100 of those around the nation.
It's the safest, cleanest formof energy that we have in the
country.
But it is 60-year-oldtechnology and again, it was
more of a military type ofapplication.
But we just took what Rickoverwere using in aircraft carriers
and submarines and kind ofdeployed them on land for power.
So a light water reactor, afission process.
(14:28):
All a reactor does is generateheat.
It does it through the fissionprocess.
You take a fissionable materialsuch as uranium, you put it
inside of the fuel rod, acladding, and that's your first
layer of containment, and so youhave the fission process
happening.
But these particles are flyingnear the speed of light.
(14:49):
They're missing each other,they're just radioactive.
You put it into a moderator,say graphite, and that slows the
fission particles down.
It slows the nuclear particlesdown so they begin to collide.
When they collide, they fission, they split.
When they split, they create anextra particle that causes
another fission and then youhave a sustained chain reaction.
(15:12):
Every time that fission happens,it creates heat.
A tremendous amount of heathappens.
It creates heat.
A tremendous amount of heat.
You know millions of times thedensity of power created from
any other energy source.
So you have to take that heat.
Then that's being created inthe moderator and you transfer
that heat to where you can turnwater into steam.
(15:35):
That turns a turbine.
That makes electricity.
Okay, that's what reactors do.
It's a really really efficient,very, very hot oven that
creates heat that we turn intoelectricity.
Well, the two technologies thereis.
You have a solid fuel core andyou have water as your heat
transfer.
It's like a radiator in yourcar.
(15:56):
It's moving your radiator fluidmoves heat from the engine
block through the radiator intothe atmosphere and just
circulates.
It's the same concept A solidfuel reactor.
The disadvantage there is thatthe fuel that is in that
cladding you would burn maybe 3%to 5% of the fuel that's in the
cladding before that fuel rodbegins to deteriorate, because
(16:20):
it is your first level ofcontainment.
When that deterioration begins,the fuel rod has to be pulled
and replaced, and that nowbecomes spent nuclear waste what
we call spent nuclear waste.
95% to 97% of the fuel is stillin the rod, but because the rod
has deteriorated now, what arewe going to do with it?
(16:40):
I mean, are we going to bury it?
Or, you know, we have to put itsomewhere for 100,000 years,
and so that's our waste issue,and that's one of the usually
three concerns people have aboutnuclear reactors.
We do not use a fuel rod.
Well, let me go to the nexttechnology.
I'll talk about what we so also, you're using water as his heat
(17:02):
transfer fluid, and water isvery good for that, because it
goes from a liquid to a gas.
It goes from water to steamvery easily, very quickly, and
so you can get.
When you get to that steamphase, you have pressure
expansion and you take 7000times in volume, and that's what
(17:25):
creates pressure that turnsyour turbines.
That's what you want.
Well, that steam is incrediblyhigh pressure, and if it's near
the radioactive material thinkFukushima then you could have a
steam release, which is whatthat big containment dome is to
contain.
You could have a steam releaseinto the atmosphere that has
(17:47):
radioactive material, and nowyou have a gas cloud, if you
will, in the environment.
We do not use water as ourcoolant.
Our coolant is molten salt, soit's a salt that has a melting
temperature, and I'm going touse a candle as an analogy here.
The salt is a solid.
(18:09):
It moves to a liquid at about450 degrees Celsius, so very,
very high melting point, thepoint to where the salt flashes
to a steam or to a gas, is 1,000degrees plus more.
BT Irwin (18:24):
Wow.
Doug Robison (18:25):
In fact, the point to where the salt we're using
wants to become a gas is higherthan the melting temperature of
the stainless steel of thereactor core itself.
Wow, stainless steel of thereactor core itself.
Wow, so what you have is afluid that we have to heat up to
450 degrees C to turn into aliquid.
(18:46):
That cannot become a gasbecause you never can get to the
temperature high enough forthat to happen, because if you
were to get to high temperature,the stainless steel that the
reactor core would melt as soonas the salt leaves that
containment.
We have multiple layers ofcontainment.
It freezes back into a solidonce it drops below 450 degrees.
(19:09):
So think of a candle that youheat with a flame and it becomes
a liquid, but if you drip it onthe table it instantly freezes
back into a solid, right?
BT Irwin (19:19):
Yes.
Doug Robison (19:20):
Well, that's molten salt and so it's what's
called walk-away safe, and theydescribed it at Oak Ridge back
in the 60s as that.
They were asked so what is yourcontainment if something were
to happen?
And facetiously they said well,we dig a hole and put a rock on
it, and what they meant wasthat it's not going into the
(19:40):
atmosphere, it's going from aliquid back to a solid and it's
going to sit there in whatevercontainment place you have for
it as a solid.
The second technologydifference I mentioned earlier
was liquid fuel.
So I talked about the, the, thefuel rock, right, and so the.
The problem you're burning threeto five percent.
The other 95 to 97% is nowunspent nuclear fuel.
(20:02):
And where are we going to putit?
What are we going to do with it?
Our fuel and we're using highassay, low enriched uranium for
this first reactor is in thesalt, much as you would put
sugar in coffee.
So it's not in a fuel rod, it'sin the salt.
The advantage of that is that weburn 100% of the fuel.
(20:24):
We don't have unspent nuclearfuel to be concerned with.
In fact, molten salt reactorshave the ability to take that
storage or that spent nuclearfuel that is sitting in storage
around the country.
Again, 95% to 97% of the fuelis perfectly good, sitting there
(20:46):
and to reutilize that fuel andfuel rods as fuel for molten
salt reactors which we can thenturn into electricity or water
or you know, whatever we'redoing with the process, so that
those are the two and that's whyit's called a generation four
technology.
It's it's a molten salt cooled,liquid fueled reactor and we
(21:12):
answer multiple concerns thatpeople have about safety.
We're walk away safe, becausethe worst that can happen is we
go from a liquid form to a solidform in a containment vessel.
We never get into theatmosphere and the waste issue
we do not generate the unspentnuclear fuel with our current
(21:33):
technology with our currenttechnology.
BT Irwin (21:36):
That's fantastic.
So the reactor is there amolten salt cooled reactor
anywhere on the planet right now?
Doug Robison (21:45):
We think there is the DOE.
Go back to 2019, when they saidwe need you to build this
reactor.
We need to beat China, we needto beat Russia.
China has announced that theyhave built a molten salt liquid
fuel reactor.
Ok, they were.
China was at all of the nuclearconferences in the 60s and 70s
(22:08):
and 80s, pretty much soaking upas much information as they
could get.
And then when they starteddeveloping their nuclear program
, they went radio silent.
And then when they starteddeveloping their nuclear program
, they went radio silent.
And so now we don't have muchinformation on what is going on
in China.
We have what they have said intheir press releases and so
forth, but their indication isthat they have deployed a molten
(22:37):
salt liquid fuel reactor, butwe don't.
I don't know that we have.
I don't have independentconfirmation of that.
Maybe the State Department does.
BT Irwin (22:42):
So the one that you're building at Abilene Christian,
when it comes online, it will bethe first that you know of,
maybe outside of China,certainly the first.
Doug Robison (22:54):
There's no doubt.
It will be the first since the1960s.
Wow.
BT Irwin (23:00):
How far along is construction on this reactor and
what's the process that willneed to be followed to get it
online?
Doug Robison (23:08):
You cannot build, you cannot deploy a reactor in
the United States without theapproval of the Nuclear
Regulatory Commission.
And there's some, unfortunately, there's some projects out
there that are saying they'regoing to do that.
No, you're not.
You're not going to build areactor with that NRC approval.
It's against the law.
So when we, when we started theproject in the middle of 2020,
(23:31):
the strategy was that I laid outis we have to get a license If
we're going to deploy commercialreactors to meet the needs of
the world that I laid out.
You know those kind of threemissional goals that we had we
have to have a license from theNRC because you can't deploy one
without that.
So how do we do that?
How do we get there as fast aspossible?
(23:52):
And so the researchers and wehad up to 150 at the four
universities working on theproject of researchers and we
had up to 150 at the fouruniversities working on the
project Immediately.
Really, the only goal we hadwas to get an application in
front of the Nuclear RegulatoryCommission.
So within two years, we hadfiled our application with the
Nuclear Regulatory Commissionfor a molten salt research
(24:15):
reactor.
It was docketed by the NRC.
At that time, we were only oneof two projects in the country
that had been successful ingetting an application in front
of the NRC and getting itdocketed for review.
So then what happened?
That was in August of 2022,.
So then what happened that wasin August of 2022, is we began
(24:39):
the review process with theNuclear Regulatory Commission.
They put up to 80 examiners orreviewers on the project.
They spent 15,000 man hoursreviewing the application.
The application is impressive,some 600 pages thick, so it's an
(25:00):
incredibly difficult piece oftechnical work that the group
did, and you won't hear thisoften, but but I spoke at okra
ridge national lab a couple ofweeks ago.
I was at the texas nuclearsummit in austin earlier this
week, and the statement I makepublicly is that you hear a lot
of criticism of the NRC.
From our perspective, the NRCdid exactly what they said they
(25:20):
would do, and in less time, andso what I mean by that is in
September of this year, ourpermit was approved by the
Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
We went down for a signingceremony at their headquarters
in Maryland and we had all ofour researchers from the
universities there, and it was alot of excitement.
I think the NRC was as excitedas we were, because what they
(25:44):
had just done and I say they,you know the NRC and our team we
answered over 300 questions inthat review process, so a
tremendous amount of manpower onboth sides they had when we got
that permit.
That was the firstliquid-fueled reactor ever
permitted in the history of theUnited States.
And I say that because thereactor at Oak Ridge that they
(26:08):
built in the 1960s the NRC didnot exist at that time, so the
NRC had never licensed aliquid-fueled reactor.
We had asked them to dosomething they had never done
before and it is the firstadvanced research reactor ever
licensed in the history of theUnited States.
Wow, it's a huge accomplishmentby our team and a huge
(26:28):
accomplishment by the NuclearRegulatory Commission.
BT Irwin (26:32):
Well, congratulations on that.
So is this a?
Explain it again?
When so, is this a?
Explain it again?
Your company is the commercial,the commercial side of this
right.
Who's going to own the reactor?
Will it be owned by AbileneChristian or owned by Natura, or
is it a joint venture?
How does this work out?
Doug Robison (26:53):
It's a joint venture.
It is licensed as UniversityResearch Reactor.
There's about 30 of thosearound the country.
The University of Texas has one.
I tell people in Austin I saidI don't know if you know it, but
there's a nuclear reactor rightin the middle of Austin and
most people are unaware of that.
It is UT's.
It's a light water reactor.
(27:14):
You know what we traditionallythink of.
Texas A&M has one on theircampus.
There are close to 30 otheruniversities that have research
reactors.
They're all light waterreactors.
This is a research reactor.
What is different about this andthis is what we laid out to the
DOE in 2019 when they asked usto build the reactor is that we
(27:36):
were going to utilize theDepartment of Energy's
University Research ReactorProgram, not just to build a
reactor, say a light waterreactor that you conduct
research in.
That's a neutron source, whichis what they're used for for
research and education, butwe're going to use the DOE
Research Re reactor program tobring new technology to the
(27:59):
marketplace, and the response ofthe DOE was that's genius.
That's never been done before.
And so Natura, in funding theproject to the universities and
to ICU on this project is wecollect the intellectual
property coming off of all ofthis research and then our.
(28:23):
So what our job is is to takethis technology from a research
reactor into commercial reactors.
This going to be somethingwhere students are involved and
professors alongside your ownpeople.
BT Irwin (28:58):
So how will it operate ?
Who will operate it?
And then what's going to happento the energy that it produces?
Doug Robison (29:03):
That's a great question, bt.
The operation is reallyenvisioned to be quite simple.
Now, the advantages of havingUT and A&M here as a part of our
research consortium is theyboth have reactors on campus so
they know how to, and we'vecollaborated a lot between those
universities on how to operatea reactor.
(29:24):
The operation of a molten saltreactor is envisioned to be much
simpler than a light waterreactor, because of the
technology, because of thedesign.
But the light water reactorsthat are scattered on university
campuses across the nation areoperated by students.
They're training grounds fornuclear operators.
So this will be the sameResearch will be conducted at
(29:48):
this reactor.
But unlike the other reactorsaround the nation, this reactor
in many ways is the researchproject.
It's not just a neutron sourceto provide an environment to
conduct experiments.
It itself is the experimentBecause it is a liquid-fueled
research reactor underDepartment of Energy regulations
(30:09):
.
It is a liquid fuel researchreactor under department of
energy regulations.
It is limited in power to onemegawatt thermal, so it's a very
low power reactor.
Uh, it's, it's small, it itfits on the back of a semi, so
it falls in the category ofwhat's called a small modular
reactor.
Uh, also one of therestrictions under the DOE
(30:30):
University Research ReactorProgram is it cannot be
connected to the grid, so wecannot take the heat that we
talked about earlier and convertthat into steam and generate
electricity by DOE regulation,and so that heat would just be
vented into the atmospherethrough radiators, so it's not
(30:53):
going to be a power source.
What that reactor does, it doesthree things.
It provides an advanced reactorfor research purposes between
ACU and the other threeuniversities that are a part of
this project, so it gives them atremendous research tool other
three universities that are apart of this project, so it
gives them a tremendous researchtool For Natura in our need to
(31:13):
develop commercial deployment.
It proves that we can license aliquid-fueled molten salt
reactor and we checked that boxin September.
That was a huge question mark,it's never been done before and
a lot of skepticism as if it asit could be done.
And we have proven that, yes,you can.
(31:34):
The NRC has licensed, didlicense this reactor technology.
The third thing the NuclearRegulatory Commission is the
world standard on safety andthat's really all they're
concerned with.
Is this safe?
They're not going to look atour business model and say, is
it economic or does it makesense, but they will not allow
(31:56):
you, and they should not everallow anyone, to deploy a design
of a reactor.
That is a threat to people orthe environment, so it's not
going to happen.
People are the environment, soit's not going to happen.
So, along those lines, as we'reseeing a lot of advanced
(32:20):
reactor technologies now tryingto make their way through the
process, and only three haveactually filed applications with
the NRC, so most are just whatwe call paper reactors.
It just designs on a computerscreen.
The NRC has been clear if youwant to deploy an advanced
nuclear technology at acommercial level, you have to
have operating data as to howthat technology functions.
(32:44):
They will not license based onthis is what we think is going
to happen, or here's what ourmodels show is going to happen.
That will not suffice for theirlicensing purposes.
So what they said is you haveto have a test reactor or a
demonstration reactor, which iswhat this one is for Natura.
(33:04):
That will provide the actualoperating data as to how this
reactor functions.
And so the third thing thisreactor does for Natura is it
provides the operational datawhich we may need no more than
two or three weeks actually ofoperating data to collect the
information that will supportour commercial reactor that
(33:24):
we're already moving forward,that will support our commercial
reactor that we're alreadymoving forward.
So we're doing things inparallel as we're deploying this
research demonstration reactor,we're also preparing to deploy
our commercial reactor when thisreactor, this research reactor,
goes critical, we will gatherthat data that will then feed
(33:48):
into our commercial applicationbefore the NRC and we'll have
actual operational data tosupport that application, which
is what they said they needed.
BT Irwin (33:55):
Wow, wow.
So I you know a couple of lastquestions here.
It's interesting, and thereason we're having this
interview with you, doug, onthis particular program is so
many of our audience members arefamiliar with Abilene Christian
University.
So many of our folks in ouraudience have gone to Christian
(34:16):
colleges like ACU and so youknow they remember a time when
these schools started aspreacher training schools and
Bible and ministry schools, andso we have this long arc from
how a lot of our schools startedto now we're building a nuclear
reactor at Abilene ChristianUniversity.
(34:36):
You know we've come a long way,so I wonder if you can make the
connection between you know theChristian heritage and mission
of a school like ACU and thecutting edge nuclear technology
that you're trying to bringonline soon.
Doug Robison (34:51):
Yeah, well, that makes sense.
I'm on the ACU Board ofTrustees and that question has
been asked.
And ACU I haven't mentioned.
I mentioned the license.
I have to mention BT, that theother thing that has happened is
that ACU has put $23 millioninto the Dillard Science
(35:12):
Engineering Research Center.
That facility is open.
We opened it in September oflast year and it is again the
first advanced reactor facilityin the nation.
It is the only reactor facility, advanced reactor facility.
The others are in planning thatoutside of a national laboratory
(35:35):
and so if we look at that, wehave to give the partnership
between Natura and ACU.
The partnership between myselfand Dr Phil Schubert is just
there's no way to express thecommitment on both sides, which
I think goes to the second partof your question.
So so ACU and again I'm on theboard of trustees there, so I'm
(35:58):
very familiar with with the, theoutstanding nature of that
university.
If we had Dr Tal or Dr Schuberton the line, which would be
actually Actually talking toPhil Schubert about this, would
be wonderful to get hisperspective as university
president.
Acu has become one of thecountry's outstanding
universities in a lot ofdifferent ways.
(36:24):
It is still very much abiblical-based and that biblical
tradition of preaching and soforth.
The Bible College is still verymuch at the heart of ACU.
But what has happened is thatthere has been a growing
(36:48):
investment in STEM andengineering and chemistry and
physics and so forth, and if youhaven't been on the ACU campus
for a while, you're going to seesome new buildings that weren't
there before.
And so the question the missionstatement of Abilene Christian
is to develop students, to trainstudents for Christian service
and leadership throughout theworld.
Well, if you're a Bible majoror perhaps an education major,
that's kind of easy to see.
(37:10):
How do I apply that missionstatement in my vocation?
If you're an engineer or achemist, maybe that doesn't
translate as easily.
But if you look at the missionand it's hard to overemphasize
how important the mission of howdo we meet the needs of the
world?
How do we lift people out ofpoverty?
This is Matthew 25.
(37:31):
How do we provide people foodand shelter and water and cure
cancer?
Well, this technology can dothose things.
And so the mission of the nextlab, which is nuclear
engineering, the next lab whichis Nuclear Engineering,
experimental Testing Lab, nextlab at ACU, is to really fulfill
(37:54):
that mission.
The mission of Natura Resourcesis pretty much exactly the same
thing.
And so there's a, and that iswhat got me out of the chair in
2017 to meet Dr Tal in the backof the room.
That's what prompted my giftand that's what prompted me to
come out of retirement.
I did not need another career.
(38:15):
I wasn't looking to dosomething.
I thought I had an idea of whatretirement looked like, but
this was too important not to do.
And we can meet those world'sneeds.
And we can meet those world'sneeds.
And so that mission and thatpermeates not only through ACU
(38:44):
and myself and the researchersthere the other Natura investors
.
This is a risky investment.
We're doing something that'snever been done before, and and
and lots of ways this can fail,although our our, our track
record of success is is makingthis look more and more like hey
, I think you guys are actuallygoing to pull this thing off,
but our investors kind of getthat.
That.
That, ok, maybe I can make moremoney investing in whatever,
(39:12):
but it's not.
It doesn't have the potential tohave the impact that this
technology does, and so that'swhat drives us to move as fast
as we've moved.
There's only two companies thathave permits from the NRC.
Both are taking the pathwayheavy R&D, a lot of engineering,
a lot of hard work how do weget to an application?
We've done it faster andquicker and cheaper than anybody
(39:37):
else in the history of thenuclear industry has done.
So our unique approach hasenabled us to do that, but it's
because of the mission thatwe're trying to fulfill.
So if you go into the CERTfacility, you're going to see
Matthew 25 quoted in the lobby Imean, it is at the foundation
of what we're doing and evensome of our corporate partners,
(39:57):
now that we have brought intothe project Zachary Nuclear,
zachary Engineering, a100-year-old company located in
San Antonio, texas 20,000employees, I believe.
I believe I mean just a hugethey're.
They're actually celebratingtheir 100 year anniversary this
year.
John zachary uh, owner of thatgroup, brought his team down two
(40:19):
years ago and met with meone-on-one and had heard about
what we were doing and why wewere doing it.
And john asked me is is, is themission statement really why
you're doing it?
Yes, and he asked the entireteam and luckily they all gave
the same answer.
So it's unique.
We're not just trying to saydevelop an industry or make
(40:41):
money.
We have to make money becauseif we can't deploy a technology
that will compete and thrive inthe marketplace without mandates
or subsidies, then we haven'tdeployed a technology that can
meet the needs of the world youhave to be commercially
successful to do that, and sothere's that aspect of it, but
(41:02):
that's not the core of it.
That is what we have to do, butthat's not why we're doing it.
That is what we have to do, butthat's not why we're doing it.
And so that translates.
It's what helps a chemist.
You know we haven't talkedabout medical isotopes at all
really much.
We can harvest, because it's aliquid-fueled reactor.
Whenever that fission eventhappens, bt, those isotopes are
(41:26):
created, those fragments aregenerated.
Usually they're locked insideof a fuel cell at the bottom of
a pool of water.
So some appear for a fewseconds, some for hours and days
and some for hundreds ofthousands of years.
But many of the useful ones arefairly short-lived.
Where you can't get them, theyappear and they're gone.
They're like a mist in themorning.
(41:48):
Some of those isotopes can curecancer Actinium-225, for example
.
We can harvest Actinium-225 ina liquid-fueled reactor and cure
prostate cancer.
Oh, wow, okay, that's worthpursuing.
So the chemist involved in thisproject that's what they're
working on is how do we harvestthese isotopes, how do we
(42:11):
identify them?
How do we pull them out of amolten salt fuel and then
deliver them to thepharmaceutical industry, to the
medical industry so we can curecancer.
So it's just remarkabletechnology.
And go back to your firstquestion has it been done before
?
It's been done before, we don'thave to prove it, we know it
(42:34):
works.
It just has never been licensed, which is what we just did.
So that's just.
It's really at this point thatI don't want to say crass, it's
just a function of capital.
Holly LInden (42:44):
Hmm.
Doug Robison (42:45):
The, the which, which is what we're hoping our
success will continue to attract, is the capital we need to then
develop commercial reactors andbegin to deploy them.
BT Irwin (42:56):
So last question, doug is there any chance at all that
you're going to retire again?
Doug Robison (43:13):
Yeah, well, one way or another.
Yeah, I don't, I don't knowthat.
That's a that's, that's aquestion you know I wasn't the
only one that didn't retire.
My wife also did not retire and,uh, we, we both had plans.
And uh, she, she's asked mefrom time to time and and, uh,
she, I think I've been on theroad for the last three or four
months with nonstop and she'svery tolerant but she does ask
me if you had known what thiswas going to become, would you
(43:35):
have ever gotten out of thechair in 2017?
And I have to admit, yeah, Iprobably would have.
So the people who are workingwith us at BT and kind of see
that I mean, the effort isamazing, the change is constant.
The team we have at Natura andat the universities are just
incredible.
(43:55):
We know what we're trying to do.
They say this is good for me.
You know, I wouldn't enjoyretirement.
I'm not sure people are tellingme that just because that's
what I need to hear, so we'lllet time dictate that.
I've learned I'm not the masterof my own faith and so I've
(44:16):
become comfortable with that.
So we'll see what happens.
BT Irwin (44:33):
Yes, sir, president of Natura Resources, and a major
part of bringing a liquid fuel,molten, salt-cooled nuclear
reactor to Abilene ChristianUniversity, the first in North
America since the 1960s.
And you've heard all about thattechnology here.
Doug, thank you for taking usto class today.
Doug Robison (44:45):
You're welcome, bt .
Very much appreciate it, alwaysglad to talk to you.
BT Irwin (44:49):
It's a pleasure.
We hope that something youheard in this episode encouraged
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(45:12):
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Slash donate Until next time.
(45:33):
May grace and peace be yours inabundance.
Holly LInden (45:37):
The Christian Chronicle podcast is a
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Informing and inspiring Churchof Christ congregations, members
and ministries around the worldsince 1943.
The Christian ChroniclesManaging Editor is Audrey
Jackson, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and President and CEO
(45:58):
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The Christian Chronicle Podcastis written, directed, hosted
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In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com