January 31, 2025 • 47 mins
The way Christians think about and use sex is changing. For example, a recent study by Barna Group and Pure Desire Ministries shows that Christian porn use is almost equal to porn use by the general public. And an increasing number of Christians believe that it is OK to look at porn. At the same time, fewer and fewer congregations are addressing the issue from the pulpit, in recovery groups or in small groups.
Meanwhile, Adventures in Missions (AIM), a popular missionary training program at Sunset International Bible Institute discovered that is missionaries-in-training needed to talk about sex. Not only because of how sex often becomes an issue on the mission field, but because too many future missionaries are themselves victims of sexual trauma.
In this episode, Holly and Steve Holladay of Ultimate Escape talk about why sexual dysfunction and sexual sin are so prevalent in the church today...and how churches can (and should) address this head-on (instead of avoiding it or pretending it's not there).
Link to Bobby Ross Jr.'s Christian Chronicle report on "sex education" at Adventures in Missions
Link to Barna Group / Pure Desire study on porn use among Christians
Link to Ultimate Escape
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Holly Linden (00:03):
Welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast.
We are bringing you the storyshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
Here is our host, BT Irwin.
BT Irwin (00:14):
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
We need to talk about sex, andwe might as well, because most
studies show that we're thinkingabout it all the time anyway,
and new studies show that moreand more Christians are using
(00:35):
sex like a drug and feeling lessremorse about it.
In that episode we explored areport from the Barna Group on
how attitudes about sex arechanging among Christians.
In the United States, forexample, over three in five
Christians say it's possible fora person to look at porn on a
regular basis and still live asexually healthy life.
(00:56):
Also, almost half 49% ofChristians who admit to looking
at porn say they are quotecomfortable with how much
pornography they use.
End quote Rodney Wright of PureDesire Ministries responded to
the new research from BarnaGroup and he talked about how
congregations, ministers andparents might respond.
It's a good, good talk, so besure to go listen to episode 109
(01:19):
if you haven't already.
This episode episode 110, comesfrom a news story from the
Christian Chronicle's own BobbyRoss Jr, who reported that
Adventures in Missions or AIMfor short a popular missionary
training program at SunsetInternational Bible Institute in
Lubbock, texas, discovered theneed to talk about the
missionary position on sex.
(01:39):
Sexual assault and sexual sinsare a reality that missionaries
face on the mission field.
A training program formissionaries is not complete if
it does not prepare them forthis, and many of the future
missionaries in the AIM programare themselves victims of sexual
trauma.
So the folks at AIM decidedthat sex can't wait if they are
to fully prepare missionariesfor the field, and for that they
(02:01):
enlisted Holly and SteveHolliday, co-founders of
Ultimate Escape, a ministry thatequips individuals, families,
churches and other organizationsto address sexuality with
intentionality and sensitivity.
This includes pastoralcounseling for teens and adults
looking for help with issuesincluding sexual trauma and
abuse, sexual identity confusionand sexual addiction.
(02:24):
You're about to hear from Hollyand Steve Holliday, but before
we get to that, please beadvised this conversation is
candid and perhaps too explicitor graphic and I mean those
terms in a good way for whatsome parents or grandparents may
want their youngsters to hear.
So if you don't want to bebombarded with questions you're
not ready to answer, maybe savethis one for a time when the
kids are not around.
And with that let's get toHolly and Steve Holiday, holly.
(02:49):
Steve, are you ready for thefirst ever sex talk on the?
Steve Holladay (02:51):
Christian Chronicle podcast.
I think we are Sure.
BT Irwin (02:55):
All right, here goes Well.
A few months ago I waslistening to a minister tell the
story of how one of his fellowministers set out to write a
candid book about sex, and theminister telling the story said
he cautioned his fellow ministerfrom writing the book because
he would forever be known as thequote-unquote sex minister.
With your ministry, ultimateEscape, you've dived right into
(03:16):
a ministry that is, frankly, allabout sex.
Why did you accept thechallenge and put yourselves out
there for this ministry?
What is your story?
Steve Holladay (03:26):
Somebody already opened the door to sexuality in
my world by age four to five.
So I have no real memory oflife prior to sexual struggle,
as I know what it's like to bethat Christian kid, that
Christian teenager on theoutside, everything looks great.
On the inside, nobody knowswhat I do, nobody knows how I
(03:47):
feel.
Finally, at age 33, sought helpfor what at that point I
recognized was a sexualaddiction that had been going on
my entire life, and that'sspring of 2002.
Fast forward two years.
So two years into recovery, ourchurch was doing Rick Warren's
(04:08):
book, the Purpose Driven Life Ithink about every church under
the sun.
Back in 03, 04 was doing the 40Day Purpose Campaign.
So my prayer during that timewas God, if there's something
beyond youth ministry thatyou've prepared me to do or
planned for me to do, pleasehelp me see it.
And then here was my littleexception.
(04:28):
But I really love youthministry and I really like the
church I'm at.
But if you can work withinthose parameters, god, let me
know what you'd like me to do.
And literally within a few weeks, the vision for Ultimate Escape
just unfolded in my mind.
A lot of what drove me to beginUltimate Escape was my own
(04:50):
struggle, my own recovery,recognizing at that point back
in 2004, there was no one whowas focusing on helping teens
dealing with addictive sexualbehavior.
But then our ministry hasmorphed through the years to
where we've.
I would like to think that it'sa.
The ministry has matured.
We address all areas ofsexuality.
(05:11):
We are not just a one facet,we're not just talking about
sexual addiction, we're not justfocusing on one particular
problem like pornography.
I think our ministry at thispoint tries to help families and
churches take a positiveapproach to sexuality.
Holly Holladay (05:29):
Like many, many people male, female, it doesn't
matter I have a history ofsexual trauma and so, while the
idea was, ultimately I feel likethe idea was God's just kind of
laid it in our lap and weeither some people say, oh, you
(05:49):
guys had so much faith.
Honestly, I think we were juststupid sometimes, but it's
worked out well.
We were naive Maybe that's anicer word but, having had a
history of dating someone who,like Steve, said he was the kid
(06:10):
that everybody wanted theirother children to be like from
the outside dated one of thoseturned very abusive fairly
quickly.
I was too young.
I was too young to be in thatkind of relationship and deal
with those kinds of emotions andtrauma and stressors, and so
(06:33):
really didn't know what to dowith it.
So, even though my nature wouldbe to not talk a lot about that
and certainly not to ever talkabout it in front of other
people or be public or any ofthat, because of the hurt that I
had experienced, just felt likereally I had an obligation, a
duty, to be open and share howthings can change and how things
(06:56):
can be different.
BT Irwin (06:57):
Would you share with us a little bit about how
Ultimate Escape works?
What are the things that you doin this ministry?
Steve Holladay (07:06):
So the three primary areas for Ultimate
Escape is the speaking orpresentations, and then
counseling and resourceproduction.
In probably the last four orfive years we've tried to spend
more of our time focusing ondeveloping resources.
We have a podcast of our timefocusing on developing resources
(07:28):
.
We have a podcast.
I've been writing a workbookthat hopefully will be finished
and ready for a publisher by theend of this year.
In our history of speaking foralmost 20 years now, just
abundantly clear the people inthe pews want this topic talked
about.
I hear that especially oncollege campuses.
You know from college students.
Our church didn't talk aboutthis.
(07:49):
We didn't talk about this whenI was growing up and almost an
anger under current in thequestions that they ask.
People want to talk about this.
That's why our ministry triesto focus so much on the
presentation side.
And then the counseling piecewas never intended to be the
major focus During COVID.
(08:11):
It became the major focusbecause there was no speaking
and people were just coming outof the woodwork.
Probably the last six, sevenyears most of my clients have
been working on sexual traumabackground.
Now sometimes the sexual traumabackground has led to
compulsive sexual behavior orsome sexual identity confusion.
(08:32):
But the primary core issue hasbeen the early sexual encounters
, early sexual exposure, Fromwhat you observe.
BT Irwin (08:42):
What do you think of the culture and teaching of sex
and sexuality in our Church ofChrist, community and tradition?
Steve Holladay (08:49):
Once in a while I may find a minister who has
addressed it at some point.
Maybe they did a single sermonor a brief series four years ago
.
I find that most churches don'thave it in the conversation on
a consistent basis and somechurches, just you know, there's
never been a presentation fromthe pulpit on anything from a
(09:12):
healthy standpoint about sex.
You know there may be areference here and there about
how sinful pornography is, youknow, or some teaching about
sexual sin, but as far ascasting a vision for what God
intended sex to be about, I findthat most churches never do
that.
Even in youth ministries, youknow they may talk about sexual
(09:33):
struggles, they may have, youknow, some conversations about
what you know what's beingtalked about in schools and what
kids are dealing with and whatkids are dealing with.
But I find it very rare that anoverall comprehensive theology
of sexuality has been put outthere for people to wrap their
mind around.
Holly Holladay (09:52):
From my perspective, growing up, the
only thing that I ever heard andof course nothing was ever from
I felt like sex was the silent,the big no-no.
It was silent from the pulpit,but as far as classes and maybe
a little we didn't actually havea youth minister but from some
(10:13):
youth leaders who worked with us, the only message I ever
received was this is wrong, it'sbad, don't ever do it.
Nothing along the lines of youknow, this is a good thing, god
created it.
Nothing along the lines of youknow this is a good thing, god
created it.
Here are the boundaries underwhich it works best.
It was just a this is wrong,don't do it.
And when you're confronted witha, when you're confronted with
(10:38):
whether it's a temptation or asituation, you just really don't
know how to handle.
It's wrong, don't do it doesn'treally help you a lot.
That doesn't give you any kindof tool, for you know what do
you do in this situation shouldit come up.
And honestly I'd like to sayit's changed, but by and large I
(10:59):
think it's still.
You know, the silence isdeafening.
BT Irwin (11:04):
It's mighty convenient to blame the culture outside
the church for sin inside thechurch, but I came across a new
study that the Barna Groupreleased in the last few weeks.
That study found that 54% a tadmore than half of practicing
Christians in the United Statesconsume porn something like once
a month.
I want to note that the Barnastudy found that the fastest
(11:27):
growing cohort of Christians whoview porn are women.
Two out of five Christian womenin the Barna study now report
viewing porn about once a month.
I doubt that anyone listeningto this will feel much surprise
at those figures, because I'mwilling to bet my next paycheck
that a good number of peoplelistening to this have struggled
with porn, maybe even in thelast month.
(11:48):
What is surprising about theBonner Report is that three out
of five practicing Christiansnow say that it is okay to view
porn at least once in a whileand that porn does not
necessarily make one sexuallyunhealthy.
Half of practicing Christianswho report that they view porn
say they are quote comfortablewith how much porn they use.
(12:09):
End quote.
What do you think new data likethis reveals about what is
going on among Christians and inthe church?
Steve Holladay (12:17):
I would.
My first reaction is I thinkthe statistic, the number, is
still low.
I think it's well more than youknow ballpark 50%, and
especially if you take the age,you know age 35, 40 and under I
think it would be much largerthan that, from both sexes, male
(12:38):
and female.
It's a reflection of whatinternet access, what
smartphones you know with, everychild has the ability to
produce their own porn, and manyof our kids and college
students are, you know, theyoung ministers now, 10 years
(12:59):
ago were university studentswith smartphones and internet
access and sexting and lookingat porn.
Those behaviors don't stop, andso you have a lot of people who
are standing in pulpit onSunday morning and struggling
with behaviors that theyprobably feel very shameful
about.
(13:21):
Some may not, but I think thevast majority of people who have
gone into ministry full-time uh, probably somewhere down inside
recognizes it's not, it's nothealthy, it's not right, it's
not God honoring Um, and so thatthat statistic?
Yeah, I'm not surprised.
I think it just reflects, um,what you know what a skewed norm
(13:43):
Ali uses that term frequently askewed norm.
The effect that that's had onour culture and the followers of
Jesus are not that muchdifferent than what our culture
is like when it comes to asexual standpoint standpoint, I
would like to say I'm surprisedthat, however, whatever the I
(14:06):
can't remember the exact figure,but they felt like it was not
even that damaging.
Holly Holladay (14:12):
I would like to say that surprises me, it
doesn't.
It does make me very sad, I'llbe honest.
It just having had probably a alarger than average view of the
damage that that porn can do toan individual and to a
(14:34):
relationship, whether that's amarriage or whether that is a
relationship with children orfriends or whatever it does, it
does make me sad, you know, andit's one of those things.
I wish I could sit down andhave a conversation with someone
who is coming for thatperspective and say okay, help
me understand this, make thismake sense to me, because it
(14:57):
just it doesn't.
Which then begs the questionwhy, why are people coming to
that conclusion?
Why, why are people coming tothat conclusion?
Is it a way to justify?
Is it a way to say there's, youknow, it's really, it's really
not hurting anyone?
Um, my problem with that is, youknow, when you're viewing porn,
(15:18):
no matter what, for and there'sa lot of different kinds of
porn, I think that's one of thethings that surprised me when we
first started Ultimate Escapeis the different formats it can
take, but no matter what, youhave someone male, female, adult
, child doesn't matter who isbeing exploited.
(15:38):
And so for these people who aresaying I don't really think
it's that damaging, what if youwere the one being exploited?
What if her child was the onebeing exploited?
What if it was your friend?
And I feel like that changesthe dynamic of the conversation.
BT Irwin (15:55):
I have a 12 year old son and uh, he had his first
encounter that I know of withporn this this summer.
Uh, a friend, uh and his, hissmartphone and friend and his
smartphone.
And I feel overwhelmed.
I feel completely overwhelmedby the accessibility of internet
porn.
(16:16):
It's ubiquitous, it's likeeverywhere, and so I feel
overwhelmed in terms of how do Iprotect my son from this, how
do I deal with this?
But I want to deal with it in away that doesn't shame him or
make him ashamed of hissexuality right, and in terms of
(16:36):
the congregations you'vedescribed and the people in the
pews, I'll bet there are a lotof people in the pews who feel
overwhelmed as well by the readyavailability of porn and the
dopamine hit they get from it.
Is there anything you can saythat would give us hope in the
face of some of these statisticsthat I just shared?
Steve Holladay (16:58):
If the hope is like it's going to go away.
No, I've got nothing, it's justgoing to get worse.
I think to me the hope is justbecause a person is struggling
with it or has been exposed toit doesn't mean they're doomed
for the rest of their life, thatthey have to continue doing it.
So I think the hope is in God'sability to transform the mind,
(17:22):
god's ability to heal ourbrokenness and restore what's
right and good.
And I think that happens oneperson at a time.
It's an individual thing,because I don't think there's
any amount of education thatpornography is dangerous or
(17:43):
pornography is going to hurtyour future, no amount of
telling people that is likely toreally make a dent in the steps
that they take in the future.
I think it's a somebody goesdown that path for themself and
at some point they realize, wow,this isn't getting me what I
(18:06):
hoped it would, or this is notfulfilling.
Now what do I do?
But you know, as parents we caneducate our children to the
dangers.
We can let them know whatbasically it is.
If they ever see somethingthat's pornography, here's how
to respond.
We can do a great job layingthat foundation and they're more
(18:26):
likely to navigate that in ahealthy way.
So I'm not at all saying don'twaste your time, it's not going
to be of any value.
But even to recognize that achild who has been well-educated
and alerted to the danger ofporn.
If a 12-year-old boy has afriend and that friend shows him
porn on his phone, it's natural.
(18:49):
It's normal for the 12-year-oldeyes to respond to that.
And then what happens in theirbody?
That that's normal and natural.
And so I think, to help ourkids understand it is normal to
be interested in sexual things.
God wired your brain.
When your eyes see a sexualtrigger, it's normal for
something to start happening inyour body in God wired your
brain.
When your eyes see a sexualtrigger, it's normal for
something to start happening inyour body in a pleasurable way.
(19:11):
It's normal for your eyes towant to see that again.
Now let's talk about what'sreally going on at a deeper
level, because to me there's abig difference in a sexual
desire, sexual need, and anemotional need, and the enemy
has done a great job throughouthistory of distracting people
(19:32):
with sexuality, distracting themto pursue a sexual need when
it's really an emotional needthat we're longing for.
So I'm longing for connection,I'm longing to feel desired or
wanted or to have a purpose, andpornography or any other sexual
behavior, whether it's imaginedlike sexual fantasy or a real
(19:56):
life sexual encounter withanother person or a virtual
sexual encounter, can tap intothose desires of the heart, can
tap into those desires of theheart.
And so if a person recognizeswhat they need and they're
willing to do that extra work ofpursuing it in a healthy way
and then being able to receivethe reward of it actually is
(20:18):
fulfilled not just a temporaryhit, it's not just a dopamine
rush.
Now I'm truly connected.
I feel like I really do have apurpose, I feel like I matter,
I'm wanted.
I think that typically comeswith more maturity.
I don't expect a 13-year-old todo that well.
(20:38):
I do think a 20-year-old ismuch more capable of making
those kinds of choices.
Holly Holladay (20:44):
Conversation needs to start when your child
is able to communicate, and Idon't mean by that that they
need to know everything there isto know at, you know, 18 months
to two years old.
That's not what I'm saying.
However, they need to knowearly on.
Hey, this is my body.
I've made my body there.
There's nothing wrong with mybody.
(21:04):
It's not dirty.
There are not parts of it thatare bad.
There are parts of it that arepublic and there are parts of it
that are private, and it reallyjust starts very innocently
with that.
Moving on to you know, as theyget a little bit older, they
start asking the questions wheredo babies come from?
Well, you don't have to diveinto all the nitty gritty, but
(21:25):
if it's a gradual little bits ofinformation that are age
appropriate, at the right time,you're not faced with this huge
the talk.
You know.
People say you know, oh, mychild's turning 12.
We're going to have the talk.
Honestly, it's too late.
At that point it is way toolate.
The train's already left thestation.
They've been indoctrinated fromtheir peers and you don't know
(21:49):
whether that's accurateinformation or inaccurate.
So you want to lay thatfoundation of truth very early
on.
But what it also does is itgives your children.
It kind of arms them for whatto expect, not in a scary bad
way, but if children know whatto expect and they know what
(22:17):
pornography is, then theythey're prepared when they see
it.
And it's not this secretsecretive like, ok, I saw
something, and I'm pretty surethe way I feel inside that I
wasn't supposed to see it, butman, that was interesting.
Let me look at that that again.
You're kind of cutting that offat the pass.
Steve Holladay (22:29):
I'll share an experience with.
One of our children was on hisway home from football practice
elementary school, you know, acommunity football practice.
I'm driving down the road, alittle two-seater, an old MR2,
it's just me and my son drivingdown the road and he said hey,
dad, guess what the guys weretalking about in line at
(22:51):
practice.
I have no idea what were theytalking about?
Masturbation.
They were telling me how to doit and saying I should go do it.
I said well, what do you thinkabout that?
He said I thought theyshouldn't be talking about that
at football practice.
Yeah, you're probably right,Keep driving down the road what
could have been a life alteringmoment.
(23:15):
I try to stay off my soapboxhere, but one of the things that
I have such an issue with,especially among youth ministers
and church leaders, is that wecan't be talking about this
topic to our younger kids.
You know we don't want to betalking about gender identity
issues and sexual identityconfusion and pornography and
(23:38):
sexting, and we don't want totalk about all this stuff with
our middle school or high schoolstudents because we don't want
to contaminate their mind orplant ideas that may cause them
to do things Our culture doesn'tafford us the luxury of not
talking about it.
Our kids are already doing it.
(23:59):
If we haven't talked to ourkids by the time they're in
middle school, if we haven'ttalked to them about sexting,
and when somebody asks for apicture, or when somebody asks
me for a nude, how do I respondto that?
I haven't armed my son or mydaughter both I haven't armed
them with what to do when arequest like that comes.
(24:20):
Then they're left trying to dealwith that with an adolescent
mind, and the adolescent mindgoes to if I don't do this,
they're going to be mad at me.
Or if I don't do this, what arethey going to tell everybody
that I did?
And so I respond from a placeof fear and a perception of
threat.
Or I want them to like me.
(24:41):
Or well, it seems like all myfriends do this, so there must
not be anything wrong with itbecause everybody's doing it.
Well, number one not everybodyis doing it.
And number two even ifeverybody were doing it, it
still doesn't make it healthy.
But if I haven't talked to mychildren about that kind of
(25:01):
stuff at six and eight and 10and 12, then convincing a 12
year old something isn't goodwhen they've already decided
that it is because everybodyelse says it is.
That's not going to be asuccessful conversation.
BT Irwin (25:18):
One of my best friends is an alcoholic, a recovering
alcoholic.
He's been sober for quite sometime now.
But one of the things, one ofthe most important things he
ever said to me he actually saidit in front of a group at
church and I never forgot it iswhen he uh, when he was drinking
a lot, when he was drinkingheavily and he was hiding it
(25:40):
from his family and he washiding it from his church, he,
he said, he, he felt like he hadthis problem that he had to
solve.
Right, he said I have adrinking problem, I've got to
stop drinking, I got to stopdrinking.
And eventually what he figuredout when he went to counseling
and 12-step group and startedattending meetings, is that
(26:02):
drinking was not his problem, itwas his solution.
And he said, when he figuredout that the drinking was
actually his solution to hisreal problem, that's when things
started to change.
And so I came across somestatistics here from the
American Psychiatric AssociationOne in three Americans feels
(26:25):
quote terribly, end quote lonely, and one in four Americans is
living with mental health issuesor mental health illness.
And so we have some realproblems right now in our
country, in our own churches andin our pews with people who are
struggling with loneliness,depression, with mental illness,
(26:47):
and so sex porn use becomes akind of solution to that
loneliness and that pain thatpeople are going through.
I'd like to flip this here atthe end of our conversation and
ask how can we give us acompelling picture of healthy,
vibrant sexuality and how wemight turn toward real solutions
(27:10):
to the real problems that thatwe have?
Steve Holladay (27:13):
So I think healthy, vibrant sexuality
starts with the foundation.
God is the author of sex.
We are sexual beings.
There's no need to hide oursexuality.
We get God wired.
It's just a part of the humanexperience and that's a good
thing.
Not until God created male andfemale and basically said to
(27:37):
them go and have a lot of sex.
That's the first time he saidthe world is very good.
So again I come back to just afoundation.
From a theology standpoint, sexis good.
We're sexual beings by God'sdesign and there is a way,
there's a path that God saysthis is the ultimate way to use
(27:58):
this, this is the mostfulfilling way, this is the way
that it works really well, andthat is in the context of
marriage, that if we can have avision that marriage is the
relationship that God intendedfor people to engage in sexual
behavior together, that it wouldbe mutually pleasurable for
both male and female, he createdour bodies where both male and
(28:20):
female have the ability to haveextremely pleasurable, exciting
physiological responses from asexual standpoint, and that
that's good.
Again, we don't need to hidefrom that.
I'm not saying go take out abillboard that says I had great
sex last night, I'm Um and alsoto recognize that the enemy is
going to try to destroy that,and he's done a really good job
(28:56):
attempting to destroy that Umand so to get things out of this
the secrecy column and theshame column that we are sexual
beings.
It's normal if you see somebodythat you find attractive, it's
normal to have an interest inthat person.
That there's nothing wrongenough to hide the fact or
(29:18):
pretend like I don't notice whensomebody's attractive.
But then okay.
But now I channel that energyback in the direction of where
it needs to go, because Goddidn't create a world where our
sexuality just exists on ourshirt sleeve and we're sexual
with everybody that we findattractive.
(29:38):
But in a broken world wheresexuality is pretty much
everywhere, you know, healthy isknowing how to rein it in,
knowing how to redirect it.
Okay, so I saw something thatwas just sexually triggering.
Now what do I do with that?
To me, that's part of healthy.
Whether somebody is dealingwith you know it's gone all the
(30:01):
way to the end of the spectrumwhere it's an addiction now.
To the end of the spectrumwhere it's an addiction now or
it's in that kind of thatmid-range of it can be misused,
no matter where I'm at on thatspectrum, I need to know how to
re-channel or redirect my sexualenergy.
And so if I'm a 14-year-old,I'm in school and I see somebody
who's dressed in a veryprovocative way part of a
(30:24):
healthy vision for sexuality issomebody hopefully my parents.
Somebody has taught me what todo in that.
How do I handle that?
Because it's normal for me tobe aroused in that moment.
It's normal for that energy towant a place to go, and so I
need some education, somepreparation.
How do I do that?
(30:45):
To me, all of those things arepart of the vision for what
healthy and embracing God's plan, what that looks like.
Holly Holladay (30:57):
I think what I would add is that obviously we
live in a very, very brokenworld.
I think at this point and Idon't know, I don't think I'm
jaded, maybe I'm jaded, but Ifeel like at this point it's
very difficult to find someonewho does not have some kind of
(31:17):
sexual hang-up, sexual trauma,something in their background.
So I guess for me, you knowwhat's the vision.
The vision is get help.
Call it what it is.
It wasn't that you were in the.
You know you're in a place youshouldn't have been, or you wore
a shirt you shouldn't have worn.
(31:38):
If you have been sexuallyassaulted, call it what it is.
Realize that it has a profoundeffect on every decision you
make every day of your life,whether you know it or not.
And I say that because that'show I lived for a lot of years.
Yeah, I knew this had the stuffback here that had happened,
(31:59):
but you know that was in thepast.
It really didn't matter.
But what it was doing was itwas kind of like the rudder
steering the ship, kind of likethe rudder steering the ship and
every everything I did it hadan impact on.
Getting help was the best thingI ever did.
It's the best thing I ever didfor me.
It's the best thing I ever didfor my marriage and it's the
best thing I ever did as aparent.
So that would be my.
That's kind of my soapbox.
(32:20):
You know, steve has his and Ihave mine.
Mine is please get help,Whether it you know, whether you
you and sometimes you're theperpetrator.
You know, I don't, I don't missthat that there are maybe
people that hear this thatrealize hey, I did some things
to people I really shouldn'thave done.
I'm really glad you see that.
(32:41):
Go get help.
I think everybody needs to getprofessional help from someone
who knows how to deal withtrauma, particularly sexual
trauma, and figure out how toput the pieces back together and
then live a healthy lifestyle,because if we don't do that,
we're just going to perpetuateto the next generation and the
(33:02):
next even more brokenness.
Steve Holladay (33:06):
You know I'm going to go back to the phrase
Jesus used.
You'll know the truth, and thetruth will set you free.
I think we can focus on thetruth of sexuality, that it's a
good thing.
God designed it.
Here's the way that it workswell, based on what the one who
created it says, and then, atthe same time, we don't shy away
(33:28):
from, as Holly said, callingthings what they are.
You know, kids in a youth groupneed to know if you're sending a
picture of yourself in a sexualway, that's the misuse of
sexuality.
If you're a teenager and you'reasking somebody for pictures
like that, you're misusingsexuality.
(33:49):
You're using somebody else foryour selfish benefit.
That's what predators do.
That's predatory behavior.
I'm not saying we label them apredator.
I'm saying call the behaviorwhat it is.
If you're trying to exploitpeople so you can get a moment
of sexual pleasure, that's thesame thing at its core as the
(34:12):
guy who goes to a park and rapesa woman.
It's using somebody else for myselfish sexual pleasure.
And so I think we call it whatit is, because truth leads to
freedom.
BT Irwin (34:27):
How much space and time should congregations give
to discussing and teaching sexand sexuality?
Our commission is to proclaimthe good news that Jesus is the
Christ, the risen and reigningSavior of all creation.
If we're talking about sex,we're not talking about that, or
are we?
Steve Holladay (34:47):
When we're talking about sex, we are
talking about a thing that isjust core to our humanity, and
it is core in a way that honorsGod.
At the end of the day, sex isnot about a physical act.
Sex is about a union of maleand female.
It's bringing together the partof God that is expressed in
(35:07):
masculine and the parts of Godthat are expressed in feminine,
and it's a rejoining or areunion of when God separated
those into male and female bymaking us in his image, and so I
think it's a deeply spiritualthing.
From a practical standpoint, Igo to.
(35:30):
Well, the world is immersed24-7 in messages about sexuality
, so how often does the churchneed to be addressing it?
Well, I'm not saying a churchneeds to be immersed 24-7 in
conversation about sex, but itneeds to be sufficient enough to
equip people to deal with the24-7 messaging they're getting
(35:54):
from a broken culture.
No-transcript Um, I don't have ahere's number of hours in a
year or the number of Bibleclasses in a year.
I would say that I think thekey word is consistent.
We need to consistently bereinforcing truth and
consistently encouraging peopleto get help, and consistently
(36:17):
encouraging people If you arestruggling, which most people
are.
If you're struggling, here'swhat God offers about that.
God doesn't say stay trapped inthe mess you're in.
God says I can set you free.
God says I want to heal thebrokenness.
Holly uses the phrase Godrestores the years the locusts
(36:40):
have eaten, that God has avision for restored sexuality
and I think people need to hearthat.
But again, I would say, need tohear it consistently.
Once every five years isprobably not enough, and once
every week would be too much forsure.
BT Irwin (36:58):
What does a congregation look like if it is
a community that encourages andteaches godly, healthy, vibrant
sex and sexuality?
Steve Holladay (37:09):
They're safe.
They look very safe that whensomebody is observed exploiting
or mistreating someone else,that it's dealt with.
Let me give you an example.
I was working with a young lady.
She's on a church trip.
She's sitting in the back seatof a church van and she is being
(37:33):
verbally, sexually harassed andassaulted by boys in the youth
group.
She goes to her youth minister,tells the youth minister what's
happened and basically nothingis done about it to change it.
She is continually exposed tothis one specific boy who does
(37:56):
this day or weekend, week outthroughout her high school
career.
Every time she goes to churchshe's exposed to this boy who
continually verbally assaultsher.
That should not happen.
That's not what healthy lookslike.
Healthy looks like protectingpeople from abusers.
(38:19):
Healthy looks like we can talkabout it and we can talk about
it openly, appropriately.
That is somebody struggling.
That that some.
There is enough visibility inour church that a person who's
struggling knows someone atchurch who has dealt with that
(38:42):
struggle.
That there's enough openness insharing our stories or our
testimonies that it's just kindof common knowledge.
If you're struggling with porn,here's somebody who's been down
that road.
If you've been sexually abused,here's somebody who's been down
that road from a leadershipstandpoint.
So whether that's a minister,an elder, somebody in church
(39:05):
leadership, that we're publicenough that people know who they
can go to.
And if somebody new walks inthe door, it's fairly easy that
they can find out who to go to,because all they have to do is
ask I'm struggling with this,who here can help me who to go
(39:25):
to?
Because all they have to do isask okay, I'm struggling with
this, who here can help me?
To me, that's part of healthy,regular classes that are dealing
with either God's vision orhere are ways that we can be
struggling.
I'm not saying it has to belimited to sexual struggles.
As you mentioned, a lot ofpeople are dealing with some
pretty significant emotionalmental illnesses and so I think
(39:46):
a part of being a healthy churchis we recognize that.
We were members of theWhitesbury Road Church, wfr
Church there in West Monroe hugecelebrate recovery.
I think it was pretty typicalin the years we were there to
have four or 500 people on aFriday night at a celebrate
recovery meeting.
That's high visibility.
(40:07):
That says if you're struggling,this is a place where you can
get help.
But again, I'm going to go backto healthy.
Doesn't just recognize that westruggle and that we're trying
to be clean from a sobrietystandpoint around drugs and
alcohol, but that we're alsotrying to be sober from a sexual
(40:28):
standpoint and safe from asexual standpoint.
Healthy churches don't allowpeople to be exploited or abused
in a sexual way, and so when weknow what's going on, we deal
with it straightforward in acompassionate.
What's going on?
(40:48):
We deal with it straightforwardin a compassionate,
god-honoring, christ-like way.
Holly Holladay (40:53):
But Jesus confronted things, but he did in
the right spirit.
I would just add that to me,healthy looks like when you have
a leader that has been caughtin some kind of sexual sin, that
the leadership deals with itappropriately, meaning they I've
(41:14):
seen it a lot of times be justswept under the rug and maybe
the person loses their job.
Maybe they don't.
Maybe they paint the affairpartner as some kind of terrible
temptress who came and you knowthis preacher was the best
thing we'd ever had and she cameand lured him away.
Maybe that was the case, butmore than likely it's not for a
(41:36):
lot of different reasons.
But in cases like that or caseswhere they get found out for
some terrible porn addiction,that they don't sweep it under
the rug and they don't throwthem to the wolves either.
I feel like there's a healthymiddle ground.
Do you need to stay in thatposition?
Probably not, at least notright now.
But here are some ways that wewant to help you, because you
(42:00):
obviously you need some help.
We want you to heal.
We want the congregation toheal as well, and when you treat
it as something secretive to beswept under the rug, it just
creates a pervasive culture ofdamage.
that I think it's really hard toget away from, so that would be
something that I would like tosee from a healthy standpoint.
BT Irwin (42:25):
Holly and Steve Holliday lead Ultimate Escape, a
ministry that equipsindividuals, families, churches
and other organizations toaddress sexuality with
intentionality and sensitivity.
We'll put links to theircontact information in the show
notes so you can learn more foryour congregation.
(42:45):
Holly, steve, thank you.
I only blushed a couple oftimes.
Steve Holladay (42:49):
I appreciate it very much.
Thanks for the opportunity tojoin you today.
BT Irwin (42:53):
Thank you, it was a pleasure having you.
We hope that something youheard in this episode encouraged
, enlightened or enriched you insome way.
If it did, please pay itforward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
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(43:15):
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Slash donate Until next time.
(43:36):
May grace and peace be yours inabundance.
Holly Linden (43:41):
The Christian Chronicle podcast is a
production of the ChristianChronicle Inc.
Informing and inspiring Churchof Christ congregations, members
and ministries around the worldsince 1943.
The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Audrey
Jackson, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and President and CEO
(44:02):
Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle Podcastis written, directed, hosted
and edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan in
Detroit, michigan, usa.
Welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast.
We are bringing you the storyshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
Here is our host, BT Irwin.
BT Irwin (00:14):
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
We need to talk about sex, andwe might as well, because most
studies show that we're thinkingabout it all the time anyway,
and new studies show that moreand more Christians are using
(00:35):
sex like a drug and feeling lessremorse about it.
In that episode we explored areport from the Barna Group on
how attitudes about sex arechanging among Christians.
In the United States, forexample, over three in five
Christians say it's possible fora person to look at porn on a
regular basis and still live asexually healthy life.
(00:56):
Also, almost half 49% ofChristians who admit to looking
at porn say they are quotecomfortable with how much
pornography they use.
End quote Rodney Wright of PureDesire Ministries responded to
the new research from BarnaGroup and he talked about how
congregations, ministers andparents might respond.
It's a good, good talk, so besure to go listen to episode 109
(01:19):
if you haven't already.
This episode episode 110, comesfrom a news story from the
Christian Chronicle's own BobbyRoss Jr, who reported that
Adventures in Missions or AIMfor short a popular missionary
training program at SunsetInternational Bible Institute in
Lubbock, texas, discovered theneed to talk about the
missionary position on sex.
(01:39):
Sexual assault and sexual sinsare a reality that missionaries
face on the mission field.
A training program formissionaries is not complete if
it does not prepare them forthis, and many of the future
missionaries in the AIM programare themselves victims of sexual
trauma.
So the folks at AIM decidedthat sex can't wait if they are
to fully prepare missionariesfor the field, and for that they
(02:01):
enlisted Holly and SteveHolliday, co-founders of
Ultimate Escape, a ministry thatequips individuals, families,
churches and other organizationsto address sexuality with
intentionality and sensitivity.
This includes pastoralcounseling for teens and adults
looking for help with issuesincluding sexual trauma and
abuse, sexual identity confusionand sexual addiction.
(02:24):
You're about to hear from Hollyand Steve Holliday, but before
we get to that, please beadvised this conversation is
candid and perhaps too explicitor graphic and I mean those
terms in a good way for whatsome parents or grandparents may
want their youngsters to hear.
So if you don't want to bebombarded with questions you're
not ready to answer, maybe savethis one for a time when the
kids are not around.
And with that let's get toHolly and Steve Holiday, holly.
(02:49):
Steve, are you ready for thefirst ever sex talk on the?
Steve Holladay (02:51):
Christian Chronicle podcast.
I think we are Sure.
BT Irwin (02:55):
All right, here goes Well.
A few months ago I waslistening to a minister tell the
story of how one of his fellowministers set out to write a
candid book about sex, and theminister telling the story said
he cautioned his fellow ministerfrom writing the book because
he would forever be known as thequote-unquote sex minister.
With your ministry, ultimateEscape, you've dived right into
(03:16):
a ministry that is, frankly, allabout sex.
Why did you accept thechallenge and put yourselves out
there for this ministry?
What is your story?
Steve Holladay (03:26):
Somebody already opened the door to sexuality in
my world by age four to five.
So I have no real memory oflife prior to sexual struggle,
as I know what it's like to bethat Christian kid, that
Christian teenager on theoutside, everything looks great.
On the inside, nobody knowswhat I do, nobody knows how I
(03:47):
feel.
Finally, at age 33, sought helpfor what at that point I
recognized was a sexualaddiction that had been going on
my entire life, and that'sspring of 2002.
Fast forward two years.
So two years into recovery, ourchurch was doing Rick Warren's
(04:08):
book, the Purpose Driven Life Ithink about every church under
the sun.
Back in 03, 04 was doing the 40Day Purpose Campaign.
So my prayer during that timewas God, if there's something
beyond youth ministry thatyou've prepared me to do or
planned for me to do, pleasehelp me see it.
And then here was my littleexception.
(04:28):
But I really love youthministry and I really like the
church I'm at.
But if you can work withinthose parameters, god, let me
know what you'd like me to do.
And literally within a few weeks, the vision for Ultimate Escape
just unfolded in my mind.
A lot of what drove me to beginUltimate Escape was my own
(04:50):
struggle, my own recovery,recognizing at that point back
in 2004, there was no one whowas focusing on helping teens
dealing with addictive sexualbehavior.
But then our ministry hasmorphed through the years to
where we've.
I would like to think that it'sa.
The ministry has matured.
We address all areas ofsexuality.
(05:11):
We are not just a one facet,we're not just talking about
sexual addiction, we're not justfocusing on one particular
problem like pornography.
I think our ministry at thispoint tries to help families and
churches take a positiveapproach to sexuality.
Holly Holladay (05:29):
Like many, many people male, female, it doesn't
matter I have a history ofsexual trauma and so, while the
idea was, ultimately I feel likethe idea was God's just kind of
laid it in our lap and weeither some people say, oh, you
(05:49):
guys had so much faith.
Honestly, I think we were juststupid sometimes, but it's
worked out well.
We were naive Maybe that's anicer word but, having had a
history of dating someone who,like Steve, said he was the kid
(06:10):
that everybody wanted theirother children to be like from
the outside dated one of thoseturned very abusive fairly
quickly.
I was too young.
I was too young to be in thatkind of relationship and deal
with those kinds of emotions andtrauma and stressors, and so
(06:33):
really didn't know what to dowith it.
So, even though my nature wouldbe to not talk a lot about that
and certainly not to ever talkabout it in front of other
people or be public or any ofthat, because of the hurt that I
had experienced, just felt likereally I had an obligation, a
duty, to be open and share howthings can change and how things
(06:56):
can be different.
BT Irwin (06:57):
Would you share with us a little bit about how
Ultimate Escape works?
What are the things that you doin this ministry?
Steve Holladay (07:06):
So the three primary areas for Ultimate
Escape is the speaking orpresentations, and then
counseling and resourceproduction.
In probably the last four orfive years we've tried to spend
more of our time focusing ondeveloping resources.
We have a podcast of our timefocusing on developing resources
(07:28):
.
We have a podcast.
I've been writing a workbookthat hopefully will be finished
and ready for a publisher by theend of this year.
In our history of speaking foralmost 20 years now, just
abundantly clear the people inthe pews want this topic talked
about.
I hear that especially oncollege campuses.
You know from college students.
Our church didn't talk aboutthis.
(07:49):
We didn't talk about this whenI was growing up and almost an
anger under current in thequestions that they ask.
People want to talk about this.
That's why our ministry triesto focus so much on the
presentation side.
And then the counseling piecewas never intended to be the
major focus During COVID.
(08:11):
It became the major focusbecause there was no speaking
and people were just coming outof the woodwork.
Probably the last six, sevenyears most of my clients have
been working on sexual traumabackground.
Now sometimes the sexual traumabackground has led to
compulsive sexual behavior orsome sexual identity confusion.
(08:32):
But the primary core issue hasbeen the early sexual encounters
, early sexual exposure, Fromwhat you observe.
BT Irwin (08:42):
What do you think of the culture and teaching of sex
and sexuality in our Church ofChrist, community and tradition?
Steve Holladay (08:49):
Once in a while I may find a minister who has
addressed it at some point.
Maybe they did a single sermonor a brief series four years ago
.
I find that most churches don'thave it in the conversation on
a consistent basis and somechurches, just you know, there's
never been a presentation fromthe pulpit on anything from a
(09:12):
healthy standpoint about sex.
You know there may be areference here and there about
how sinful pornography is, youknow, or some teaching about
sexual sin, but as far ascasting a vision for what God
intended sex to be about, I findthat most churches never do
that.
Even in youth ministries, youknow they may talk about sexual
(09:33):
struggles, they may have, youknow, some conversations about
what you know what's beingtalked about in schools and what
kids are dealing with and whatkids are dealing with.
But I find it very rare that anoverall comprehensive theology
of sexuality has been put outthere for people to wrap their
mind around.
Holly Holladay (09:52):
From my perspective, growing up, the
only thing that I ever heard andof course nothing was ever from
I felt like sex was the silent,the big no-no.
It was silent from the pulpit,but as far as classes and maybe
a little we didn't actually havea youth minister but from some
(10:13):
youth leaders who worked with us, the only message I ever
received was this is wrong, it'sbad, don't ever do it.
Nothing along the lines of youknow, this is a good thing, god
created it.
Nothing along the lines of youknow this is a good thing, god
created it.
Here are the boundaries underwhich it works best.
It was just a this is wrong,don't do it.
And when you're confronted witha, when you're confronted with
(10:38):
whether it's a temptation or asituation, you just really don't
know how to handle.
It's wrong, don't do it doesn'treally help you a lot.
That doesn't give you any kindof tool, for you know what do
you do in this situation shouldit come up.
And honestly I'd like to sayit's changed, but by and large I
(10:59):
think it's still.
You know, the silence isdeafening.
BT Irwin (11:04):
It's mighty convenient to blame the culture outside
the church for sin inside thechurch, but I came across a new
study that the Barna Groupreleased in the last few weeks.
That study found that 54% a tadmore than half of practicing
Christians in the United Statesconsume porn something like once
a month.
I want to note that the Barnastudy found that the fastest
(11:27):
growing cohort of Christians whoview porn are women.
Two out of five Christian womenin the Barna study now report
viewing porn about once a month.
I doubt that anyone listeningto this will feel much surprise
at those figures, because I'mwilling to bet my next paycheck
that a good number of peoplelistening to this have struggled
with porn, maybe even in thelast month.
(11:48):
What is surprising about theBonner Report is that three out
of five practicing Christiansnow say that it is okay to view
porn at least once in a whileand that porn does not
necessarily make one sexuallyunhealthy.
Half of practicing Christianswho report that they view porn
say they are quote comfortablewith how much porn they use.
(12:09):
End quote.
What do you think new data likethis reveals about what is
going on among Christians and inthe church?
Steve Holladay (12:17):
I would.
My first reaction is I thinkthe statistic, the number, is
still low.
I think it's well more than youknow ballpark 50%, and
especially if you take the age,you know age 35, 40 and under I
think it would be much largerthan that, from both sexes, male
(12:38):
and female.
It's a reflection of whatinternet access, what
smartphones you know with, everychild has the ability to
produce their own porn, and manyof our kids and college
students are, you know, theyoung ministers now, 10 years
(12:59):
ago were university studentswith smartphones and internet
access and sexting and lookingat porn.
Those behaviors don't stop, andso you have a lot of people who
are standing in pulpit onSunday morning and struggling
with behaviors that theyprobably feel very shameful
about.
(13:21):
Some may not, but I think thevast majority of people who have
gone into ministry full-time uh, probably somewhere down inside
recognizes it's not, it's nothealthy, it's not right, it's
not God honoring Um, and so thatthat statistic?
Yeah, I'm not surprised.
I think it just reflects, um,what you know what a skewed norm
(13:43):
Ali uses that term frequently askewed norm.
The effect that that's had onour culture and the followers of
Jesus are not that muchdifferent than what our culture
is like when it comes to asexual standpoint standpoint, I
would like to say I'm surprisedthat, however, whatever the I
(14:06):
can't remember the exact figure,but they felt like it was not
even that damaging.
Holly Holladay (14:12):
I would like to say that surprises me, it
doesn't.
It does make me very sad, I'llbe honest.
It just having had probably a alarger than average view of the
damage that that porn can do toan individual and to a
(14:34):
relationship, whether that's amarriage or whether that is a
relationship with children orfriends or whatever it does, it
does make me sad, you know, andit's one of those things.
I wish I could sit down andhave a conversation with someone
who is coming for thatperspective and say okay, help
me understand this, make thismake sense to me, because it
(14:57):
just it doesn't.
Which then begs the questionwhy, why are people coming to
that conclusion?
Why, why are people coming tothat conclusion?
Is it a way to justify?
Is it a way to say there's, youknow, it's really, it's really
not hurting anyone?
Um, my problem with that is, youknow, when you're viewing porn,
(15:18):
no matter what, for and there'sa lot of different kinds of
porn, I think that's one of thethings that surprised me when we
first started Ultimate Escapeis the different formats it can
take, but no matter what, youhave someone male, female, adult
, child doesn't matter who isbeing exploited.
(15:38):
And so for these people who aresaying I don't really think
it's that damaging, what if youwere the one being exploited?
What if her child was the onebeing exploited?
What if it was your friend?
And I feel like that changesthe dynamic of the conversation.
BT Irwin (15:55):
I have a 12 year old son and uh, he had his first
encounter that I know of withporn this this summer.
Uh, a friend, uh and his, hissmartphone and friend and his
smartphone.
And I feel overwhelmed.
I feel completely overwhelmedby the accessibility of internet
porn.
(16:16):
It's ubiquitous, it's likeeverywhere, and so I feel
overwhelmed in terms of how do Iprotect my son from this, how
do I deal with this?
But I want to deal with it in away that doesn't shame him or
make him ashamed of hissexuality right, and in terms of
(16:36):
the congregations you'vedescribed and the people in the
pews, I'll bet there are a lotof people in the pews who feel
overwhelmed as well by the readyavailability of porn and the
dopamine hit they get from it.
Is there anything you can saythat would give us hope in the
face of some of these statisticsthat I just shared?
Steve Holladay (16:58):
If the hope is like it's going to go away.
No, I've got nothing, it's justgoing to get worse.
I think to me the hope is justbecause a person is struggling
with it or has been exposed toit doesn't mean they're doomed
for the rest of their life, thatthey have to continue doing it.
So I think the hope is in God'sability to transform the mind,
(17:22):
god's ability to heal ourbrokenness and restore what's
right and good.
And I think that happens oneperson at a time.
It's an individual thing,because I don't think there's
any amount of education thatpornography is dangerous or
(17:43):
pornography is going to hurtyour future, no amount of
telling people that is likely toreally make a dent in the steps
that they take in the future.
I think it's a somebody goesdown that path for themself and
at some point they realize, wow,this isn't getting me what I
(18:06):
hoped it would, or this is notfulfilling.
Now what do I do?
But you know, as parents we caneducate our children to the
dangers.
We can let them know whatbasically it is.
If they ever see somethingthat's pornography, here's how
to respond.
We can do a great job layingthat foundation and they're more
(18:26):
likely to navigate that in ahealthy way.
So I'm not at all saying don'twaste your time, it's not going
to be of any value.
But even to recognize that achild who has been well-educated
and alerted to the danger ofporn.
If a 12-year-old boy has afriend and that friend shows him
porn on his phone, it's natural.
(18:49):
It's normal for the 12-year-oldeyes to respond to that.
And then what happens in theirbody?
That that's normal and natural.
And so I think, to help ourkids understand it is normal to
be interested in sexual things.
God wired your brain.
When your eyes see a sexualtrigger, it's normal for
something to start happening inyour body in God wired your
brain.
When your eyes see a sexualtrigger, it's normal for
something to start happening inyour body in a pleasurable way.
(19:11):
It's normal for your eyes towant to see that again.
Now let's talk about what'sreally going on at a deeper
level, because to me there's abig difference in a sexual
desire, sexual need, and anemotional need, and the enemy
has done a great job throughouthistory of distracting people
(19:32):
with sexuality, distracting themto pursue a sexual need when
it's really an emotional needthat we're longing for.
So I'm longing for connection,I'm longing to feel desired or
wanted or to have a purpose, andpornography or any other sexual
behavior, whether it's imaginedlike sexual fantasy or a real
(19:56):
life sexual encounter withanother person or a virtual
sexual encounter, can tap intothose desires of the heart, can
tap into those desires of theheart.
And so if a person recognizeswhat they need and they're
willing to do that extra work ofpursuing it in a healthy way
and then being able to receivethe reward of it actually is
(20:18):
fulfilled not just a temporaryhit, it's not just a dopamine
rush.
Now I'm truly connected.
I feel like I really do have apurpose, I feel like I matter,
I'm wanted.
I think that typically comeswith more maturity.
I don't expect a 13-year-old todo that well.
(20:38):
I do think a 20-year-old ismuch more capable of making
those kinds of choices.
Holly Holladay (20:44):
Conversation needs to start when your child
is able to communicate, and Idon't mean by that that they
need to know everything there isto know at, you know, 18 months
to two years old.
That's not what I'm saying.
However, they need to knowearly on.
Hey, this is my body.
I've made my body there.
There's nothing wrong with mybody.
(21:04):
It's not dirty.
There are not parts of it thatare bad.
There are parts of it that arepublic and there are parts of it
that are private, and it reallyjust starts very innocently
with that.
Moving on to you know, as theyget a little bit older, they
start asking the questions wheredo babies come from?
Well, you don't have to diveinto all the nitty gritty, but
(21:25):
if it's a gradual little bits ofinformation that are age
appropriate, at the right time,you're not faced with this huge
the talk.
You know.
People say you know, oh, mychild's turning 12.
We're going to have the talk.
Honestly, it's too late.
At that point it is way toolate.
The train's already left thestation.
They've been indoctrinated fromtheir peers and you don't know
(21:49):
whether that's accurateinformation or inaccurate.
So you want to lay thatfoundation of truth very early
on.
But what it also does is itgives your children.
It kind of arms them for whatto expect, not in a scary bad
way, but if children know whatto expect and they know what
(22:17):
pornography is, then theythey're prepared when they see
it.
And it's not this secretsecretive like, ok, I saw
something, and I'm pretty surethe way I feel inside that I
wasn't supposed to see it, butman, that was interesting.
Let me look at that that again.
You're kind of cutting that offat the pass.
Steve Holladay (22:29):
I'll share an experience with.
One of our children was on hisway home from football practice
elementary school, you know, acommunity football practice.
I'm driving down the road, alittle two-seater, an old MR2,
it's just me and my son drivingdown the road and he said hey,
dad, guess what the guys weretalking about in line at
(22:51):
practice.
I have no idea what were theytalking about?
Masturbation.
They were telling me how to doit and saying I should go do it.
I said well, what do you thinkabout that?
He said I thought theyshouldn't be talking about that
at football practice.
Yeah, you're probably right,Keep driving down the road what
could have been a life alteringmoment.
(23:15):
I try to stay off my soapboxhere, but one of the things that
I have such an issue with,especially among youth ministers
and church leaders, is that wecan't be talking about this
topic to our younger kids.
You know we don't want to betalking about gender identity
issues and sexual identityconfusion and pornography and
(23:38):
sexting, and we don't want totalk about all this stuff with
our middle school or high schoolstudents because we don't want
to contaminate their mind orplant ideas that may cause them
to do things Our culture doesn'tafford us the luxury of not
talking about it.
Our kids are already doing it.
(23:59):
If we haven't talked to ourkids by the time they're in
middle school, if we haven'ttalked to them about sexting,
and when somebody asks for apicture, or when somebody asks
me for a nude, how do I respondto that?
I haven't armed my son or mydaughter both I haven't armed
them with what to do when arequest like that comes.
(24:20):
Then they're left trying to dealwith that with an adolescent
mind, and the adolescent mindgoes to if I don't do this,
they're going to be mad at me.
Or if I don't do this, what arethey going to tell everybody
that I did?
And so I respond from a placeof fear and a perception of
threat.
Or I want them to like me.
(24:41):
Or well, it seems like all myfriends do this, so there must
not be anything wrong with itbecause everybody's doing it.
Well, number one not everybodyis doing it.
And number two even ifeverybody were doing it, it
still doesn't make it healthy.
But if I haven't talked to mychildren about that kind of
(25:01):
stuff at six and eight and 10and 12, then convincing a 12
year old something isn't goodwhen they've already decided
that it is because everybodyelse says it is.
That's not going to be asuccessful conversation.
BT Irwin (25:18):
One of my best friends is an alcoholic, a recovering
alcoholic.
He's been sober for quite sometime now.
But one of the things, one ofthe most important things he
ever said to me he actually saidit in front of a group at
church and I never forgot it iswhen he uh, when he was drinking
a lot, when he was drinkingheavily and he was hiding it
(25:40):
from his family and he washiding it from his church, he,
he said, he, he felt like he hadthis problem that he had to
solve.
Right, he said I have adrinking problem, I've got to
stop drinking, I got to stopdrinking.
And eventually what he figuredout when he went to counseling
and 12-step group and startedattending meetings, is that
(26:02):
drinking was not his problem, itwas his solution.
And he said, when he figuredout that the drinking was
actually his solution to hisreal problem, that's when things
started to change.
And so I came across somestatistics here from the
American Psychiatric AssociationOne in three Americans feels
(26:25):
quote terribly, end quote lonely, and one in four Americans is
living with mental health issuesor mental health illness.
And so we have some realproblems right now in our
country, in our own churches andin our pews with people who are
struggling with loneliness,depression, with mental illness,
(26:47):
and so sex porn use becomes akind of solution to that
loneliness and that pain thatpeople are going through.
I'd like to flip this here atthe end of our conversation and
ask how can we give us acompelling picture of healthy,
vibrant sexuality and how wemight turn toward real solutions
(27:10):
to the real problems that thatwe have?
Steve Holladay (27:13):
So I think healthy, vibrant sexuality
starts with the foundation.
God is the author of sex.
We are sexual beings.
There's no need to hide oursexuality.
We get God wired.
It's just a part of the humanexperience and that's a good
thing.
Not until God created male andfemale and basically said to
(27:37):
them go and have a lot of sex.
That's the first time he saidthe world is very good.
So again I come back to just afoundation.
From a theology standpoint, sexis good.
We're sexual beings by God'sdesign and there is a way,
there's a path that God saysthis is the ultimate way to use
(27:58):
this, this is the mostfulfilling way, this is the way
that it works really well, andthat is in the context of
marriage, that if we can have avision that marriage is the
relationship that God intendedfor people to engage in sexual
behavior together, that it wouldbe mutually pleasurable for
both male and female, he createdour bodies where both male and
(28:20):
female have the ability to haveextremely pleasurable, exciting
physiological responses from asexual standpoint, and that
that's good.
Again, we don't need to hidefrom that.
I'm not saying go take out abillboard that says I had great
sex last night, I'm Um and alsoto recognize that the enemy is
going to try to destroy that,and he's done a really good job
(28:56):
attempting to destroy that Umand so to get things out of this
the secrecy column and theshame column that we are sexual
beings.
It's normal if you see somebodythat you find attractive, it's
normal to have an interest inthat person.
That there's nothing wrongenough to hide the fact or
(29:18):
pretend like I don't notice whensomebody's attractive.
But then okay.
But now I channel that energyback in the direction of where
it needs to go, because Goddidn't create a world where our
sexuality just exists on ourshirt sleeve and we're sexual
with everybody that we findattractive.
(29:38):
But in a broken world wheresexuality is pretty much
everywhere, you know, healthy isknowing how to rein it in,
knowing how to redirect it.
Okay, so I saw something thatwas just sexually triggering.
Now what do I do with that?
To me, that's part of healthy.
Whether somebody is dealingwith you know it's gone all the
(30:01):
way to the end of the spectrumwhere it's an addiction now.
To the end of the spectrumwhere it's an addiction now or
it's in that kind of thatmid-range of it can be misused,
no matter where I'm at on thatspectrum, I need to know how to
re-channel or redirect my sexualenergy.
And so if I'm a 14-year-old,I'm in school and I see somebody
who's dressed in a veryprovocative way part of a
(30:24):
healthy vision for sexuality issomebody hopefully my parents.
Somebody has taught me what todo in that.
How do I handle that?
Because it's normal for me tobe aroused in that moment.
It's normal for that energy towant a place to go, and so I
need some education, somepreparation.
How do I do that?
(30:45):
To me, all of those things arepart of the vision for what
healthy and embracing God's plan, what that looks like.
Holly Holladay (30:57):
I think what I would add is that obviously we
live in a very, very brokenworld.
I think at this point and Idon't know, I don't think I'm
jaded, maybe I'm jaded, but Ifeel like at this point it's
very difficult to find someonewho does not have some kind of
(31:17):
sexual hang-up, sexual trauma,something in their background.
So I guess for me, you knowwhat's the vision.
The vision is get help.
Call it what it is.
It wasn't that you were in the.
You know you're in a place youshouldn't have been, or you wore
a shirt you shouldn't have worn.
(31:38):
If you have been sexuallyassaulted, call it what it is.
Realize that it has a profoundeffect on every decision you
make every day of your life,whether you know it or not.
And I say that because that'show I lived for a lot of years.
Yeah, I knew this had the stuffback here that had happened,
(31:59):
but you know that was in thepast.
It really didn't matter.
But what it was doing was itwas kind of like the rudder
steering the ship, kind of likethe rudder steering the ship and
every everything I did it hadan impact on.
Getting help was the best thingI ever did.
It's the best thing I ever didfor me.
It's the best thing I ever didfor my marriage and it's the
best thing I ever did as aparent.
So that would be my.
That's kind of my soapbox.
(32:20):
You know, steve has his and Ihave mine.
Mine is please get help,Whether it you know, whether you
you and sometimes you're theperpetrator.
You know, I don't, I don't missthat that there are maybe
people that hear this thatrealize hey, I did some things
to people I really shouldn'thave done.
I'm really glad you see that.
(32:41):
Go get help.
I think everybody needs to getprofessional help from someone
who knows how to deal withtrauma, particularly sexual
trauma, and figure out how toput the pieces back together and
then live a healthy lifestyle,because if we don't do that,
we're just going to perpetuateto the next generation and the
(33:02):
next even more brokenness.
Steve Holladay (33:06):
You know I'm going to go back to the phrase
Jesus used.
You'll know the truth, and thetruth will set you free.
I think we can focus on thetruth of sexuality, that it's a
good thing.
God designed it.
Here's the way that it workswell, based on what the one who
created it says, and then, atthe same time, we don't shy away
(33:28):
from, as Holly said, callingthings what they are.
You know, kids in a youth groupneed to know if you're sending a
picture of yourself in a sexualway, that's the misuse of
sexuality.
If you're a teenager and you'reasking somebody for pictures
like that, you're misusingsexuality.
(33:49):
You're using somebody else foryour selfish benefit.
That's what predators do.
That's predatory behavior.
I'm not saying we label them apredator.
I'm saying call the behaviorwhat it is.
If you're trying to exploitpeople so you can get a moment
of sexual pleasure, that's thesame thing at its core as the
(34:12):
guy who goes to a park and rapesa woman.
It's using somebody else for myselfish sexual pleasure.
And so I think we call it whatit is, because truth leads to
freedom.
BT Irwin (34:27):
How much space and time should congregations give
to discussing and teaching sexand sexuality?
Our commission is to proclaimthe good news that Jesus is the
Christ, the risen and reigningSavior of all creation.
If we're talking about sex,we're not talking about that, or
are we?
Steve Holladay (34:47):
When we're talking about sex, we are
talking about a thing that isjust core to our humanity, and
it is core in a way that honorsGod.
At the end of the day, sex isnot about a physical act.
Sex is about a union of maleand female.
It's bringing together the partof God that is expressed in
(35:07):
masculine and the parts of Godthat are expressed in feminine,
and it's a rejoining or areunion of when God separated
those into male and female bymaking us in his image, and so I
think it's a deeply spiritualthing.
From a practical standpoint, Igo to.
(35:30):
Well, the world is immersed24-7 in messages about sexuality
, so how often does the churchneed to be addressing it?
Well, I'm not saying a churchneeds to be immersed 24-7 in
conversation about sex, but itneeds to be sufficient enough to
equip people to deal with the24-7 messaging they're getting
(35:54):
from a broken culture.
No-transcript Um, I don't have ahere's number of hours in a
year or the number of Bibleclasses in a year.
I would say that I think thekey word is consistent.
We need to consistently bereinforcing truth and
consistently encouraging peopleto get help, and consistently
(36:17):
encouraging people If you arestruggling, which most people
are.
If you're struggling, here'swhat God offers about that.
God doesn't say stay trapped inthe mess you're in.
God says I can set you free.
God says I want to heal thebrokenness.
Holly uses the phrase Godrestores the years the locusts
(36:40):
have eaten, that God has avision for restored sexuality
and I think people need to hearthat.
But again, I would say, need tohear it consistently.
Once every five years isprobably not enough, and once
every week would be too much forsure.
BT Irwin (36:58):
What does a congregation look like if it is
a community that encourages andteaches godly, healthy, vibrant
sex and sexuality?
Steve Holladay (37:09):
They're safe.
They look very safe that whensomebody is observed exploiting
or mistreating someone else,that it's dealt with.
Let me give you an example.
I was working with a young lady.
She's on a church trip.
She's sitting in the back seatof a church van and she is being
(37:33):
verbally, sexually harassed andassaulted by boys in the youth
group.
She goes to her youth minister,tells the youth minister what's
happened and basically nothingis done about it to change it.
She is continually exposed tothis one specific boy who does
(37:56):
this day or weekend, week outthroughout her high school
career.
Every time she goes to churchshe's exposed to this boy who
continually verbally assaultsher.
That should not happen.
That's not what healthy lookslike.
Healthy looks like protectingpeople from abusers.
(38:19):
Healthy looks like we can talkabout it and we can talk about
it openly, appropriately.
That is somebody struggling.
That that some.
There is enough visibility inour church that a person who's
struggling knows someone atchurch who has dealt with that
(38:42):
struggle.
That there's enough openness insharing our stories or our
testimonies that it's just kindof common knowledge.
If you're struggling with porn,here's somebody who's been down
that road.
If you've been sexually abused,here's somebody who's been down
that road from a leadershipstandpoint.
So whether that's a minister,an elder, somebody in church
(39:05):
leadership, that we're publicenough that people know who they
can go to.
And if somebody new walks inthe door, it's fairly easy that
they can find out who to go to,because all they have to do is
ask I'm struggling with this,who here can help me who to go
(39:25):
to?
Because all they have to do isask okay, I'm struggling with
this, who here can help me?
To me, that's part of healthy,regular classes that are dealing
with either God's vision orhere are ways that we can be
struggling.
I'm not saying it has to belimited to sexual struggles.
As you mentioned, a lot ofpeople are dealing with some
pretty significant emotionalmental illnesses and so I think
(39:46):
a part of being a healthy churchis we recognize that.
We were members of theWhitesbury Road Church, wfr
Church there in West Monroe hugecelebrate recovery.
I think it was pretty typicalin the years we were there to
have four or 500 people on aFriday night at a celebrate
recovery meeting.
That's high visibility.
(40:07):
That says if you're struggling,this is a place where you can
get help.
But again, I'm going to go backto healthy.
Doesn't just recognize that westruggle and that we're trying
to be clean from a sobrietystandpoint around drugs and
alcohol, but that we're alsotrying to be sober from a sexual
(40:28):
standpoint and safe from asexual standpoint.
Healthy churches don't allowpeople to be exploited or abused
in a sexual way, and so when weknow what's going on, we deal
with it straightforward in acompassionate.
What's going on?
(40:48):
We deal with it straightforwardin a compassionate,
god-honoring, christ-like way.
Holly Holladay (40:53):
But Jesus confronted things, but he did in
the right spirit.
I would just add that to me,healthy looks like when you have
a leader that has been caughtin some kind of sexual sin, that
the leadership deals with itappropriately, meaning they I've
(41:14):
seen it a lot of times be justswept under the rug and maybe
the person loses their job.
Maybe they don't.
Maybe they paint the affairpartner as some kind of terrible
temptress who came and you knowthis preacher was the best
thing we'd ever had and she cameand lured him away.
Maybe that was the case, butmore than likely it's not for a
(41:36):
lot of different reasons.
But in cases like that or caseswhere they get found out for
some terrible porn addiction,that they don't sweep it under
the rug and they don't throwthem to the wolves either.
I feel like there's a healthymiddle ground.
Do you need to stay in thatposition?
Probably not, at least notright now.
But here are some ways that wewant to help you, because you
(42:00):
obviously you need some help.
We want you to heal.
We want the congregation toheal as well, and when you treat
it as something secretive to beswept under the rug, it just
creates a pervasive culture ofdamage.
that I think it's really hard toget away from, so that would be
something that I would like tosee from a healthy standpoint.
BT Irwin (42:25):
Holly and Steve Holliday lead Ultimate Escape, a
ministry that equipsindividuals, families, churches
and other organizations toaddress sexuality with
intentionality and sensitivity.
We'll put links to theircontact information in the show
notes so you can learn more foryour congregation.
(42:45):
Holly, steve, thank you.
I only blushed a couple oftimes.
Steve Holladay (42:49):
I appreciate it very much.
Thanks for the opportunity tojoin you today.
BT Irwin (42:53):
Thank you, it was a pleasure having you.
We hope that something youheard in this episode encouraged
, enlightened or enriched you insome way.
If it did, please pay itforward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Recommend and review itwherever you listen to your
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Your subscription,recommendation and review help
us reach more people and pleasesend your comments, ideas and
(43:15):
suggestions to podcast atchristianchronicleorg.
Don't forget our ministry toinform and inspire Christians
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So if you like the show and youwant to keep it going and make
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Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg.
Slash donate Until next time.
(43:36):
May grace and peace be yours inabundance.
Holly Linden (43:41):
The Christian Chronicle podcast is a
production of the ChristianChronicle Inc.
Informing and inspiring Churchof Christ congregations, members
and ministries around the worldsince 1943.
The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Audrey
Jackson, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and President and CEO
(44:02):
Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle Podcastis written, directed, hosted
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