Almost as soon as Church of Christ missionaries entered Ukraine after the breakup of the Soviet Union, Christian Chronicle reporters entered the country as well. For more than three decades now, The Christian Chronicle has covered how the Ukrainian people embraced with joy the gospel of Jesus Christ. Few parts of Europe can match Ukraine for how the Church of Christ took root, sprang up, grew and spread.
Russia's invasion and occupation of Ukrainian territory in 2014 and all-out war against its neighbor starting in 2022 has done great harm to the Church of Christ and its members in Ukraine. But not grave harm. In the face of death and destruction, Church of Christ congregations and members are rising up and showing how the love and power of God is greater than bombs and tanks. But recent events in the United States are leaving some Christians in Ukraine feeling betrayed by their brothers and sisters in Christ.
In this episode, Jeff Abrams (executive director of Rescue Ukraine and former minister with Tuscumbia Church of Christ in Tuscumbia, Alabama) and Marina Noyes (a pillar in the Vinograder Church of Christ in Kiev, Ukraine) talk about how the Church of Christ and its members are holding out after three years of war in Ukraine. They also talk about how the changing political situation in the United States is affecting the Church of Christ in Ukraine.
Link to a full archive of The Christian Chronicle's coverage of the Church of Christ in Ukraine
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Holly Linden (00:03):
Welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast.
We are bringing you the storyshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
Here is our host, BT Irwin.
BT Irwin (00:14):
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
When the Iron Curtain fell inthe 1990s and Christian
missionaries flowed into formerSoviet bloc nations, the people
of Ukraine were some of the mosteager, joyful and responsive to
(00:36):
the news that Jesus is theChrist and that his kingdom is
near.
The sound of splashingbaptistries could be heard all
over the land.
At the same time that thishappened, the Christian
Chronicle began sendingreporters to Ukraine to cover
the story of new Christians andChurch of Christ congregations
being born in real time.
Over the last 30 years, we'vekept up that coverage as those
(00:59):
Christians and congregationsgrew and brought forth new
generations walking together inthe way of Jesus the Christ.
Russia's invasion of Ukraine inFebruary 2022 upset life for
almost all of the Christians inthe Church of Christ community
there.
Since the first Russianmissiles landed in Ukrainian
territory and the first Russiansoldiers stepped foot on
(01:22):
Ukrainian soil, the ChristianChronicle has been covering how
the invasion and war areaffecting Christians and the
Church of Christ in Ukraine.
You can read all of thatcoverage in an archive link
we'll post in the show notes.
Now I don't mean to belittleanyone anywhere else, but here
in the United States, forexample, it may be common to
hear congregational leaders talkabout how awfully hard it is to
(01:45):
keep a church on focus andtogether when there are so many
distractions for membersdistractions like jobs and
phones and social media andyouth sports.
But in Ukraine, keeping achurch together and on focus is
a matter of keeping its membersalive and hopeful when an enemy
army is actually trying tocapture and kill them.
(02:06):
So, after three years ofnon-stop war, how are Christians
and congregations doing that?
How has the war affected thelife and work of the Church of
Christ in Ukraine?
Today we have two people whocan tell us more about that from
their own firsthand experienceand eyewitness accounts in
Ukraine.
Jeff Abrams, a Church of Christminister, leads Rescue Ukraine,
(02:28):
an independent nonprofitministry that for almost 30
years, has been bringingAmerican and Ukrainian
Christians together to build thebody of Christ and to proclaim
the kingdom of God in Ukraine.
Since Russia's invasion inFebruary 2022, rescue Ukraine
has been mobilizing support forUkrainians both at home and in
(02:49):
the Ukrainian refugee diasporaaround the world.
Marina Noyes is a nativeUkrainian who, with her husband,
jim, planted the VinogradoChurch of Christ in Kiev more
than 20 years ago.
They fled Ukraine when the warstarted, but since then returned
to continue working with thechurch and its neighbors.
Marina and Jim are currently inthe United States, but will
soon return to Kiev to resumetheir work with the church there
(03:12):
.
Jeff, marina, thank you formaking time in wartime to talk
to our audience today.
Jeff Abrams (03:19):
It's an honor to be here, brother.
Marina Noyes (03:21):
Yes, I'm glad to be here.
BT Irwin (03:24):
Well, in our reporting at the Christian Chronicle
since the 1990s, it seems thatthe Ukrainian people have been
exceptional in their receptivityin response to the good news
that Jesus is the Christ.
What can you tell us about howthe Church of Christ found
fertile soil in which to growand multiply in Ukraine over the
(03:46):
last 30 years?
Marina Noyes (03:49):
Well, if you look at it from a historical
perspective, in the last 30years of the Church of Christ in
Ukraine, I think it had severalstages of development.
It had several stages ofdevelopment.
So first it was this first waveof influx of converts that
(04:16):
basically, at that time it wascaused by the fact that people
who had lived under communistpropaganda they began to feel
freedom and they had anopportunity to learn the truth,
and I was one of those people.
So I remember the feelings andaspirations of my people at that
time.
But at that time there weremany, many newly born immature
(04:40):
babies in Christ and they didn'tknow much about the church,
what is church, and you know, Iwas baptized before I was
introduced into the church.
So yeah, and then they came tothe second stage and it was
marked by a very faithful anddiligent work of American
missionaries.
(05:01):
They came and stayed in Ukraineand they helped the immature
Christians get more rooted inthe scriptures, learn about what
biblical leadership is, what isChristian attitude, what is
relationships, true-rightrelationships.
(05:24):
And those missionaries theygave us a very good personal
example and we're very thankfulfor their love and for their
dedication.
And then they came to the thirdstage.
The third stage is whenUkrainian brothers, having been
(05:45):
taught by American teachers,having gone through some schools
and getting some training, theytook responsibilities of
leadership upon themselves andthat gave the church new
opportunities because more andmore people were trained and the
(06:06):
church, getting more mature,started new ministries like
children, teenagers, helping thecommunities of the blind.
Our church was very muchinvolved with the blind
community, the handicapped,prisoners started prison
(06:26):
ministry, low-income families,and that was the time the Lord
gave us peace and the church hadan opportunity to grow.
That time to grow not only inknowledge but in love, showing
mercy, showing kindness andcompassion.
(06:47):
And now let me suggest that nowwe are in the fourth stage of
the Church of Christ in Ukrainebeing tested.
The Church is being tested bythe war.
Jeff Abrams (07:02):
Part of the whole process.
To me it's like they'rereliving the book or duplicating
the book of Acts all acrossUkraine.
Now there's the teaching, thebaptizing, the teaching.
There's the sharing of commongood, there's taking care of the
neighbors.
(07:23):
They're meeting daily fromrefugee house to refugee house
and it's really an amazing thingto see.
It's a beautiful thing to see.
But you know, it all hadn'tbeen roses right, there'd been a
lot of thorns in this time, alot of challenges.
We've had, to my knowledge,about 15 Christians that have
(07:44):
died in this war since thefull-scale invasion.
We've had, to my knowledge,about 15 Christians that have
died in this war since afull-scale invasion.
We've had a lot of Christiansthat have lost everything.
They've lost their cities,they've lost their homes.
Obviously They've lost theirchurch buildings, they've lost
their life savings and they havereally been up against it.
(08:07):
And so many of them have beenlike you used the word tested.
Their faith has been tested,unlike anything.
I think this is the greatestattack on the Lord's Church
since the days of the Romanemperors, certainly the European
church, and I'm just thankfulfor the resilience of our
brothers and sisters in Christ.
(08:27):
But I think this war is givingus generational opportunities to
overcome evil with good, andyou know we need to be best we
can embracing thoseopportunities.
BT Irwin (08:41):
There's been a lot of information or disinformation as
it may be about how bothRussian occupiers and Ukrainian
authorities are treating ormistreating churches.
For example, the Wall StreetJournal reported last year that
in Ukrainian territory that isunder Russian occupation, the
Russians are cracking down onwhat they call evangelical
(09:03):
churches, which I would expectto include the Church of Christ
from Wall Street Journal's pointof view.
And then there are some reportsof Ukrainian authorities
cracking down on churches andrestricting religious freedom
for security reasons.
Y'all have been in Ukrainesince the war started.
You're in touch with churchesin Ukraine every day From what
you gather.
What do you make of thesereports?
Marina Noyes (09:27):
day from what you gather.
What do you make of thesereports?
Well, I want to say thatRussian propaganda has done a
very good job of spreading liesabout the so-called persecutions
of the Russian Orthodox Churchof Moscow patriarchy.
It is true that Ukrainianparliament banned the
denomination, but it was bannedbecause it has become a tool of
(09:50):
undermining the security of ourcountry and the facts of
collaboration cooperation of theRussian Orthodox Church of
Moscow Patriarchy with RussianSecret Service.
Those facts are so innumerablethat it is only a blind who
cannot see them.
At the same time, I do not knowof any other religious
(10:15):
restrictions that would beimposed by Ukrainian authorities
on churches authorities onchurches.
We enjoy religious freedom inUkraine and I have not heard
about any cases of persecution,and since the beginning of the
war, we experienced moretolerance and cooperation among
(10:38):
churches of differentpersuasions, and this is one of
the fruits that the war brought.
Jeff Abrams (10:44):
I've been in the occupied territories a couple of
times since 2014, wheneverRussia pro-Russian forces
initiated all this over, been toDonetsk a couple of times, in
fact, and in those territoriesthat are under Russian control,
there is not freedom of religion, there is oppression.
(11:07):
There were many of my brothersand sisters in Christ in those
areas were afraid to meet withsomebody like me because they're
being watched and they're beingmonitored, and that's from the
Russian side.
That's what Russia does.
That's what Russia does.
That's what Putin does.
The head of the RussianOrthodox Church is a fellow by
(11:29):
the name of Kirill and he seesthis as a religious or holy war.
He, wherever territory isgained by Russia, the Russian
military, he sees that asterritory, as people gained for
his denomination, the RussianOrthodox Church, and, as Marina
(11:50):
has expressed it very well,they're a tool of the Russian
government, russian military.
Kirill there's a lot ofevidence he's a former KGB agent
Coincidentally, vladimir Putinformer KGB agent and those guys
are close.
And so in Russia, there issignificant persecution of
(12:15):
Christians.
There is the denial ofreligious liberties and
evangelism and putting up churchsigns, and in occupied
territories there's more thanthat, and we've actually in the
city of Gorlovka in 2014, abouta month into the war, during a
Sunday morning worship service,masked military people,
(12:39):
pro-russian people, came in andthey interrupted that worship
service, guns pointing, makingthreats.
Basically, they stole thatfacility and we've never gotten
it back.
And we have one of the peoplethat we have here in Tuscumbia
from Ukraine.
She was in that assembly thatday.
It was very terrifying.
(13:00):
People were screaming, fainting.
So that's Russia.
That's the reality of whatRussia does, what they want to
do.
People were screaming, faintingand you know it was hard.
So that's Russia.
That's the reality of whatRussia does, what they want to
do.
If Putin and Kirill have theirway, any land conquered by
Russia in Ukraine, the onlyreligion that will be free to
(13:22):
exercise its rights would be theRussian Orthodox Church.
The Ukraine government has beenextremely friendly with all
religious groups, as far as myinformation, with the exception
of these priests that arepublicly, you know, praying for
the death of Ukrainians, prayingfor the death of Zelensky.
(13:45):
I mean, they were openly, youknow, as in their sermons, as in
their prayers, they're prayingfor the destruction of the land
that they're standing in.
It was, you know, preposterousthing.
And Marina, again I keepgetting back that Marina's right
that you know russianpropaganda is is amazing.
How.
How anybody could believe suchillogical and ludicrous things
(14:09):
is beyond me.
But it is being spoken again.
You know, if you repeat a lieenough times it sounds like the
truth.
But yeah, our experience, ourexperience has been we've had no
restrictions.
We printed and distributedbibles, we've had camps.
I've traveled.
When I, when I tell peoplethese blog posts, I say why are
you here, what are you doing?
I'm a preacher, I've come tocheck on some people, encourage
(14:31):
them, bring Bibles.
Okay, go ahead.
God bless you.
These military people.
They even let me pray with themin these places, frontline
places, we pause for prayer.
So there's a very welcomingenvironment today for the Church
of Christ and, I would say, forall religions.
BT Irwin (14:50):
We talked a little bit before we started recording.
Jeff, when you first startedgoing to Ukraine, you were going
to the eastern part of thecountry, which is now occupied
by Russia.
Now occupied by Russia.
Do you know if any of thosecongregations over there are
still meeting?
Jeff Abrams (15:11):
are still intact In the Donetsk area.
That's kind of the Bible beltof Europe, right?
More Christians in that areathan in all of Europe put
together, I would say.
So in that area there are somecongregations left.
There are some Christians left,but they're in the occupied
territories.
(15:31):
They're very difficult for themto meet to openly worship.
Most of them are not doing thatanymore.
Most of them, whateverworshiping they do, is from
their homes and they've had toleave those areas.
In the cities that are notoccupied but destroyed, if that
makes sense to you.
You know we still have a few, aremnant of Christians there.
(15:55):
We've helped a lot of thoseChristians to evacuate to safer
areas.
But, for example, in Kramatorskthere are still probably 15 to
25 Christians that are there.
They meet every Sunday andthere were Mark while I was with
them just a few weeks ago andthey have maybe 60 to 100 that
will come and worship from thecommunity.
(16:16):
That are refugees that arehaving various material needs
met and then they stay for Bibleclasses material needs met and
then they stay for Bible classes.
That's one of the reasonsthere's been so much numerical
growth, because these refugeesare coming and they're receiving
bread, but also it was a breadof life and they're responding
favorably to what Marinaresponded to three decades ago.
(16:45):
But it's really tough for thesechurches near the contact line.
We have great Christianfamilies in Zaporizhia, in Sumy,
in Kramatorsk, slavyansk,konstantinopoulos.
Now there's just like two orthree Christians.
I know I'm using names with you.
That may not make sense to you,but it's that whole line down
(17:08):
there next to the Russian borderand that's a very challenging
place to be now.
But our Christians, I mean,they're getting used to the
sound of the sirens and thebombs and they just press on,
they just they keep doing whatthey're going to do.
It can be like a fatalistattitude.
If I live, I live.
(17:29):
If I die, I die.
But I'm going to stay here, I'mnot going to run, I'm just
going to put it in the hands ofGod.
Some of them don't even respondanymore to the sound of the
sirens to go underground andtake refuge.
They're just three years of it,they're just tired.
BT Irwin (17:45):
Marina, you live in Ukraine.
You're in New Mexico right nowas we're recording this, but
you're getting ready to headhome to Kiev and you and your
husband are residents there.
You work with the Vina GrataChurch of Christ.
Yes, how?
This is a awfully big questionthat I don't know that you can
answer.
(18:05):
But let's take it down to thepersonal level, to individuals
and to households.
At three years, in how much haslife changed for our Ukrainian
brothers and sisters in Christ?
I mean, what is life like nowand how?
How are how are they dealingwith?
Marina Noyes (18:24):
life.
Okay, I want to tell you thatthere hasn't been any single
person in the whole country ofUkraine there hasn't been any
single person who has not beenaffected by the war.
Some lost their loved ones,some lost their, their homes.
(18:46):
Some have their family membersserving in the front line.
Some mothers that we know havetheir sons missing in action,
maybe somewhere in prisonRussian as war prisoners may be
lost, they do not know.
Some had to flee abroad and hadto find some refuge in other
(19:12):
countries.
Many people lost their jobs,many people developed health
issues because of daily stresses.
Almost all, I would say, havebeen emotionally wounded.
Jeff Abrams (19:30):
No doubt.
Marina Noyes (19:31):
It's the whole nation emotionally wounded,
emotionally suffering people,emotionally wounded, emotionally
suffering people.
And another thing they alllearn to survive under missile
attacks, under drone attacks,with night alarms, blackouts,
(19:53):
heating shortages, watershortages, and I think Apostle
Paul and his words in 2Corinthians I think they
describe this condition betterthan anyone else.
This is what Apostle Paul saidwe are hard-pressed on every
(20:14):
side, but not crushed.
Perplexed but not in despair,struck down but not destroyed.
This is the spirit of thecountry and the church as the
spiritual leader of the country.
Jeff Abrams (20:32):
You know, I had a lady named Anna that I became
friends with back in 1990.
She was a babushka, which meansa grandmother, but she was
never married.
The love of her life died inWorld War II actually, and she
was the oldest Christian inUkraine and you know, her
(20:55):
attitude is so representative ofso many Christians there where
I tried to persuade her.
I would go she's like aUkrainian mother to me.
I would go and persuade her.
Kramatorsk is a dangerous city.
There the Russians are about 15miles away and they can reach
it with artillery and it's notan ideal situation.
(21:18):
And I would beg her, you know,talk to her like a son to a
mother.
I say we have a place, we havepeople that take care of you.
And I thought she'd listen tome.
She's her first word,translated to me, was the word
impossible.
Now you're not, not gonna leaveher.
Her attitude was she said I washere when the Germans occupied
(21:39):
Kramatorsk.
When the Russians come, if theydo, if I can survive the
Germans, I'll survive theRussians.
And she said my next stop whenI leave Kramatorsk is going to
be heaven.
And I was there with her lastjanuary for her 90, for 100th
(22:00):
birthday party.
And then a couple months later,she, she died and I wasn't able
to be there for a funeral.
But I went back a few weekslater and went to a grave, took
some roses, we said some words,had a prayer, but her attitude
is is one that that is like itis the voice of our faithful
(22:21):
brothers and sisters in Christ.
Marina Noyes (22:23):
I think that the Lord, in His incomprehensible
divine wisdom, prepared HisChurch in Ukraine for this trial
of the war, and Hispreparations were twofold.
Basically, there were two majortesting and training grounds
for the church.
One came in 2014, and at thattime many people had to flee
(22:46):
from the east, from thoseoccupied towns, and there were
lots of Christians among them,and those were the Christians
that they found new spiritualfamilies in other parts of
Ukraine.
They joined other churches inother parts of Ukraine and by
their example of how to reallydeal with trials and
(23:10):
prosecutions, other churcheswere strengthened.
Also at that time, somepreachers from the East.
They relocated to Ukraine andthey either planted new
congregations or preached in thealready established
(23:31):
congregations.
So the churches in other partsof Ukraine was strengthened at
that time and that was the firsttesting.
At that time we first time welearned what is IDP internally
displaced people, refugees, soto speak.
(23:53):
Well, and those refugees foundsupport and help of the churches
and the church for the firsttime learned what to do with
them, how to provide them withdwelling places, this food
distribution and, of course, howto offer this spiritual and
(24:16):
moral support to the refugees.
Little did we know at that timethat the Lord prepared us for
something bigger.
So that was the first test, andthe second test came, or maybe
the Lord's second tool ofpreparation.
It's the pandemic COVIDpandemic because at that time
(24:40):
the church learned to teach andpreach online when the members
are scattered and or sitting intheir homes, and we learned to
keep in touch with each otherthrough groups in messengers.
But little did we know at thattime, also that it was a
preparation for a bigger test,but that gave Ukrainian
(25:03):
Christians an opportunity not tolose contacts with their
churches.
And it's like now we have aprayer group which is online,
and the members of our prayergroup are scattered Some are in
Europe, some are in undergroundchurch in the occupied territory
and some are in Kiev.
(25:25):
And here we are in America, yousee.
But those things were reallythe preparations for the trials,
and this preparation that theLord gave helped us to endure
these trials.
BT Irwin (25:42):
I should note that, just before we recorded this,
marina was in a Bible study withsome.
Marina Noyes (25:48):
Christians in Ukraine over Zoom.
BT Irwin (25:49):
I was going to ask you about that.
Recent survey data has shown adecline in evangelical support
for US financial and militaryassistance to Ukraine, and I
know a lot of Church of Christfolks don't consider us
evangelical, but pollsters do,because we share some common
characteristics with what theyclassify as evangelicals.
Our focus here in thisinterview is not how much, if
(26:12):
any, financial and militarysupport the United States should
give to Ukraine as a nation andmilitary support the United
States should give to Ukraine asa nation.
However, recent times haveproven that those kinds of
political debates can color theattitudes and actions of
Christians and congregations.
So with the change inadministration in Washington DC
and recent events, have youdetected any kind of change of
(26:32):
attitude among Christians in theUnited States as regards coming
alongside and supporting theirbrothers and sisters in Ukraine?
Marina Noyes (26:41):
Well, I want to address that.
I think that those Christiansin America who have been to
Ukraine or who personally knowsome Ukrainians or heard their
testimonies, I don't think theirattitude will change or has
changed or will change.
Those that have followed theevents, the developments from
(27:06):
the very beginning.
I think they have already madeup their minds and they know
what is right, what is wrong,who is the aggressor, who is the
victim.
I don't think that those peoplewill be shaken or turned.
However, recently I began tonotice that some Christians in
(27:28):
America begin to more agree withpoliticians rather than with
the word of God, and that isshocking to me.
You know, and I think there's avery good advice that Solomon
gave to all of us, and Solomonsays whoever says to the guilty,
(27:52):
you are innocent will be cursedby people and denounced by
nations.
It's in Proverbs 24, 24.
It's just not by people cursedby people and denounced by
nations.
So I don't want to be cursed ordenounced and I think that many
(28:16):
Christians will just need tounderstand where the truth is.
It goes through all thispropaganda and lies.
Jeff Abrams (28:26):
You know there's undoubtedly taking place a
trickle-down effect from thedivisive political rhetoric, the
pro-Russian propaganda.
Again, if something is repeatedover and over, it can be a lie,
but it begins to sound like thetruth.
(28:47):
Zelensky's a thief.
Ukraine is corrupt.
You know they don't want peace,they provoke the war and any.
If someone is even a little bitreluctant to give or to pray to
begin with, that kind of can bethe domino that pushes them on
(29:09):
over and says okay, I'm out.
I don't know who's right, who'swrong, I don't.
So I'm just not gonna, I'm notgonna, I'm not gonna help, I
don't trust the situation and,and you know we, I gotta be
careful how we express this.
But for, for a guy like me,who's, when I think of Ukraine,
(29:30):
it's family, it's, it's, it's,it's blood.
For me it's, it's everythingfor me, it's my heart, right,
just like marina's, and to hereven more, of course.
But when I hear, when I hearamerica first, america first,
america first I, I listen tothat through, uh, through
(29:51):
ukrainian lens and and you knowit almost sounds like if you're
not american, and you know italmost sounds like if you're not
American, I'm not going to helpyou, I'm not going to care
about you.
And we've got to be Christiansfirst and we belong to a
heavenly kingdom.
And there's nothing in theBible that says I'm to be more
(30:22):
concerned about a neighbor basedon their proximity to me, their
ability to repay me, whatlanguage they speak, what
passport they have, I mean.
And so there's undoubtedlygoing to be a chilling effect in
the Lord's church among peoplewho know better, and so it's up
to people like me, like Marina,like the listeners of this
podcast, to say, hey, come on,we got to help.
We got to help these folks.
They're in a ditch and we havegreat opportunity, we have
generational opportunity to stepup and be a true blessing to
(30:46):
people who would do the same forus and do the same for us.
Ukrainian Christians are.
They're not perfect.
They got their flaws, like weall do, but they're so kind,
they're so generous, they're sowilling to help their neighbor
and we need to do for them whatthey're doing for each other
best we can.
BT Irwin (31:07):
We're recording this.
It's interesting we'rerecording this a few days after
the meeting that PresidentZelensky had with President
Trump in the White House and weall know how that went.
And it's interesting that Idon't engage in social media,
but I still snoop around inthere sometimes.
I have a lot of friends, a lot,a lot, a lot of friends in the
(31:28):
Church of Christ.
It was curious to me that inthe days following that Oval
Office meeting, how many ofthose Church of Christ folks
started posting things aboutZelensky being a thief, things
that I'd never seen them be veryinterested in before.
So, circling around to thisquestion, both of you talked
(31:49):
about how important it was whenAmerican missionaries came to
Ukraine in the 1990s.
American missionaries came toUkraine in the 1990s and the
love and the support that thechurch in the United States has
poured into the church inUkraine over the last 30 years.
How are Christians in Ukraineprocessing what they must be
(32:11):
hearing about what's going on inthe United States right now?
Marina Noyes (32:16):
Well, I think the latest tension in the
relationship between ourcountries.
First it brought the feeling ofshock, complete shock, and then
the feeling of betrayal.
But after getting over theshock, we began to come back to
the old truth that we should nottrust kings and their alliances
(32:41):
, that we trust the Lord and hisword, and this is what we need
to stand on.
This is the position of thechurch in Ukraine, I could say.
Jeff Abrams (32:56):
Georgian Ukraine I could say.
Well, I would add to that thereis some justified concern about
Russia and America, and maybesome European nations, just kind
of going off by themselves anddetermining the fate of Ukraine
(33:18):
and Ukrainians.
And there has been a lot ofrhetoric on social media that is
very disappointing frombrothers and sisters in Christ.
It is the repeating of falseinformation.
It is I'm ashamed to say thisit is, it is.
(33:38):
It is from the Kremlin morethan from Christ.
It is Russian propaganda and,for example, even in in
president Trump's speech lastnight it was there were so many
elements of it that weChristians would agree to.
That makes us more vulnerableto agree with everything and
need to, and that makes us morevulnerable to agree with
(33:59):
everything.
And when political leaders havegreat influence and they say
things that aren't true aboutUkraine, we know.
Not true.
It's bona fide, easily provable.
But when our brothers andsisters in Christ, when they
have such allegiance to apersonality that they lose the
(34:21):
ability to filter out what isreal and what is false,
especially if you're alreadyinclined America, first hang on
to our stuff.
We're not going to be victimsanymore.
We're the piggy bank of theworld, we're the policemen of
the world and we're just tiredof that and it's extremely
(34:45):
troubling.
I am active on social media andFacebook.
I'm trying to get the truth outthere in a positive way, bring
us together, help us to notdivide over political
disagreements, and we can be afaithful Christian and still
disagree with our politicalleaders.
We can be a faithful Christianand still disagree with other
faithful Christians, and we'vegot to keep the kingdom of God
(35:08):
in focus and our mission infocus.
And this war, while giving usagain generational opportunities
to do good, it's also givingthe devil an opportunity to
divide us, and it blows my mind.
I was on a Zoom call thismorning with people in Ukraine,
(35:28):
and today our government is notonly withholding military
assistance to help Ukrainiansdefend themselves against
missiles and drones and bullets,but now we are withholding from
them the intelligence that letsthem know a missile is coming
(35:49):
your way.
There are apps that Ukrainiansuse.
They can tell a cruise missileis headed to.
Key drones are coming, take,take, shelter.
A lot of that information comesfrom american intelligence, our
satellites, our, our planes andand, and now our country's
saying no, no.
(36:10):
It's like ukraine is beingblackmailed to to surrender or
be obliterated.
That's the peace plan.
And so what do we do?
You know we're encouraged asChristians to add a politics and
just focus on spreading thegospel, but they're intertwined
here.
Some and I even fear Marina maycan address this more than I
(36:32):
can, but I fear that someUkrainians will be less
receptive to a gospel that isbeing brought to Ukraine by
Americans, because you know, weAmericans betrayed Ukraine.
We sided with the invader, withthe dictator, and we don't want
any more to do with you or yourgospel.
(36:53):
Surely that will be an upcomingconcern.
Marina Noyes (36:59):
That's true.
This is one of the concernsthat might be, but also another.
Ukraine doesn't want theso-called Ruski Mir, russian
world, because it would mean theprosecution of Christians,
evangelical churches and noreligious freedom.
We know that.
(37:19):
We look at Russia.
Look at Russia.
There's only one bigdenomination, the right one, so
to speak.
There's no religious freedomthere.
Look at the occupiedterritories what they're doing
there to our churches.
So territories, what they'redoing there to our churches.
(37:39):
So this is the biggest concernof Ukrainian Christians, I think
, because one of the things thatwe've been really enjoying in
Ukraine since Ukraine becameindependent is religious freedom
.
It's true, religious freedom,and if Russia comes, it will be
taken away from us and this isthe dearest thing for us.
(38:01):
We don't want that.
BT Irwin (38:04):
Well, I want to close with the assertion that all the
land in the world belongs to Godand God is present and working
on every square inch of theearth.
And, as Psalms 2 says,nation-states are always
conspiring and plotting, but Godlaughs and has them in derision
.
So, even as war is raging inUkraine, no army can evict God
from God's own earth and God'sown land.
(38:25):
And even as the killing andmaiming go on and on, god is
making new life and resurrectinglife.
Would each of you close us outby telling us a recent story of
where you have witnessed God atwork in a powerful way, among
the Ukrainian people or inUkraine?
Marina Noyes (38:43):
Well, I want to share one fact.
On February the 12th, ukrainianparliament established a
national day of prayer inUkraine.
There are only two countries inthe world that have a national
day of prayer, so from now on,february 24th is to be annually
(39:10):
observed as a national day ofprayer, and this year, the first
time in history, the Ukraine'sparliament began its session by
performing the spiritual prayeranthem.
That was unprecedented, butthis is the first time it's
going to happen now annually onthat day, and that reminded me
(39:31):
of the words in 2 Chronicles,7-14.
714, if my people, who arecalled by my name, will humble
themselves and pray and seek myface and turn from their wicked
ways, then I will hear fromheaven and I will forgive their
sin and will heal their land.
(39:53):
And here is what is interesting.
And here is what is interesting.
The latest turbulent events onthe international arena began
after February the 12th, andthey got especially hot after
(40:14):
the 24th day of February.
It looks like Satan, the fatherof all lies, is at great rage
right now Because Ukraine, onthe national level, on the level
of its government, is turningto God and at the same time, the
(40:37):
Lord began to expose someleaders.
And the Lord is reallyrevealing now what is in the
hearts of many men, of many,many, both rulers and common
citizens.
That is all happening sincethat new law that was issued.
Jeff Abrams (41:03):
There's a preacher, for example, in the frontline
city of Sumy.
His name is Andrei.
Prior to the war, prior to thefull-scale invasion, andrei had
never even held a gun in hishand.
When the Russians invaded, hejoined his local militia.
He learned how to shoot ajavelin and since getting that
(41:30):
education he's very successfullydefended his city against
Russian invasion, especially intanks.
He's killed himself three tanks.
He's been decorated for hisheroism in battle.
We helped him not only get avan but to reinforce the van
(41:54):
with metal sheets and I visitedhim on multiple occasions.
You can see the bullet holes inthis van from Russian fire and
he's paid such a high pricebecause of this war.
His son has been killed inbattle recently and I was with
(42:15):
him a few weeks ago, with Andreand you know, just praying with
him and crying with him.
It just puts a face to thistragedy.
It's not a statistic, you know.
And he has three brothers thatare also fighting against
(42:36):
Russian forces.
He has a sister that isfighting, two of his brothers
have been severely injured, onewith a brain injury.
Both of them are stillhospitalized in Kiev and one may
not survive.
And I know of no family, noUkrainian family.
Certainly that's paid a higherprice than this.
(42:56):
There's another preacher overthere named Alex.
Before he was enlisted ordrafted in the Army a few weeks
ago, he looked like John theBaptist would look, I think Long
hair and just loves his musickind of an artsy guy.
Just got married and he neverreally stepped up and led the
(43:20):
Lord's people.
But the professional preachersrelocated to safer areas.
He stayed there in Kramatorskand I met him where he's in his
training camp in an undisclosedlocation a few weeks ago and,
you know, took him a bunch ofhand warmers and he's just such
a great fellow.
He's got such a big heart forthe Lord, for his country, and
(43:44):
he could have chosen to run away, but he chose to run to the
fight, you know, and to you knowhe's willing to die for the
freedoms that we take forgranted here.
And how can you not stand withpeople like that?
How can we ignore them and justsay that's far away from here
(44:05):
and that's not our problem andit is our problem?
You know, when one Christianhurts, we all hurt, and there
are a lot of UkrainianChristians that are hurting.
And this is an opportunity forus to show something of our
character, show something of theheart of Christ that presumably
lives in us.
BT Irwin (44:22):
People are listening to this all over the world right
now.
I would include we do havelisteners in Russia to this
program and 117 countries andthe United States all 50 states.
So here at the very end.
If Christians are listening tothis anywhere in the world and
they want to help, what can theydo?
Jeff Abrams (44:41):
We do need to pray.
We need to pray fervently,frequently, faithfully, and that
ought to be a mandate not justin every congregation, but in
every Christian, in every family, every home.
We need to be praying daily forUkraine.
If we believe in the power ofprayer, we believe this is
actually a winnable war.
That's the message, you know.
(45:02):
It just aggravates me to no endwhen I hear someone say this is
an unwinnable war.
It's like saying that God isnot going to answer my prayers.
I'm praying that it is winnable.
David's battle looked unwinnable.
Right Christ's battle with thegrave looked unwinnable.
Daniel's fight with the lionslooked unwinnable.
(45:24):
But prayers get answered whenwe lift them up.
But, furthermore, we need toput feet on our prayers.
We need to cry.
We need to cry out.
We need to encourage ourUkrainian brethren.
We need to give of our treasureto cry out.
We need to encourage ourUkrainian brethren.
We need to give of our treasureto help them and whomsoever.
(45:45):
Much is given that's me.
Much is required, and RescueUkraine is a nonprofit
organization.
We've got our website,rescueukrainecom.
People can go there, they cangive, and I appreciate people's
trust in us and what we'retrying to do and we try to be
(46:05):
good stewards of everything thatcomes to us and there's not a
day that goes by that we're notin contact with Ukrainians that
need to know we're standing withthem faithfully and also
financially, and I appreciateChristian Chronicle and doing so
much good to keep this news outthere in people's consciousness
(46:31):
, in their hearts and aware ofopportunities to step up and
overcome evil with good.
This is an opportunity thatwe've never had in our lifetime
before to show the power of good, and again I'm grateful for so
many brothers and sisters inChrist who do care and do help,
(46:53):
who are making a difference.
Don't stop.
BT Irwin (46:57):
Well, like I said at the top of the show, we'll put
links in the show notes to allof the ways that you can help
the church in Ukraine.
We'll also put links to theChristian Chronicles extensive
coverage of the church inUkraine, not only over the last
three years but the last 30years, so you can get the whole
story.
Jeff, marina, all of us who arelistening to you today join in
(47:23):
prayer for you and with you, andfor the people and places you
love in Ukraine and forUkrainians who have spread out
all over the world.
Thank you for sharing with ustoday.
Marina Noyes (47:32):
Thank you.
Jeff Abrams (47:33):
Thank you for giving us this opportunity.
Slava, slava Ukraine.
God bless you.
God bless Christian Chronicle,and God bless everybody that's
listening, that has SlavaUkraine.
God bless you.
God bless Christian Chronicle,and God bless everybody that's
listening that has a heart forUkraine.
Our brothers and sisters needus to step up.
Marina Noyes (47:48):
Thank you.
BT Irwin (47:50):
We hope that something you heard in this episode
encouraged, enlightened orenriched you in some way.
If it did, thanks be to God andplease pay it forward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Recommend and review itwherever you listen to your
favorite podcasts.
Your subscription,recommendation and review help
(48:11):
us reach more people and pleasesend your comments, ideas and
suggestions to podcast atchristianchronicleorg.
Don't forget our ministry toinform and inspire Christians
and congregations around theworld is a non-profit ministry
that relies on your generosity.
So if you like the show and youwant to keep it going and make
(48:34):
it even better, please make atax-deductible gift to the
Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg.
Slash donate Until next time.
May grace and peace be yours inabundance.
Holly Linden (48:47):
The Christian Chronicle podcast is a
production of the ChristianChronicle Inc.
Informing and inspiring Churchof Christ congregations, members
and ministries around the worldsince 1943.
Members and ministries aroundthe world since 1943.
The Christian ChroniclesManaging Editor is Audrey
Jackson, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and President and CEO
(49:08):
Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle Podcastis written, directed, hosted
and edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan in
Detroit, michigan, USA.
Welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast.
We are bringing you the storyshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
Here is our host, BT Irwin.
BT Irwin (00:14):
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
When the Iron Curtain fell inthe 1990s and Christian
missionaries flowed into formerSoviet bloc nations, the people
of Ukraine were some of the mosteager, joyful and responsive to
(00:36):
the news that Jesus is theChrist and that his kingdom is
near.
The sound of splashingbaptistries could be heard all
over the land.
At the same time that thishappened, the Christian
Chronicle began sendingreporters to Ukraine to cover
the story of new Christians andChurch of Christ congregations
being born in real time.
Over the last 30 years, we'vekept up that coverage as those
(00:59):
Christians and congregationsgrew and brought forth new
generations walking together inthe way of Jesus the Christ.
Russia's invasion of Ukraine inFebruary 2022 upset life for
almost all of the Christians inthe Church of Christ community
there.
Since the first Russianmissiles landed in Ukrainian
territory and the first Russiansoldiers stepped foot on
(01:22):
Ukrainian soil, the ChristianChronicle has been covering how
the invasion and war areaffecting Christians and the
Church of Christ in Ukraine.
You can read all of thatcoverage in an archive link
we'll post in the show notes.
Now I don't mean to belittleanyone anywhere else, but here
in the United States, forexample, it may be common to
hear congregational leaders talkabout how awfully hard it is to
(01:45):
keep a church on focus andtogether when there are so many
distractions for membersdistractions like jobs and
phones and social media andyouth sports.
But in Ukraine, keeping achurch together and on focus is
a matter of keeping its membersalive and hopeful when an enemy
army is actually trying tocapture and kill them.
(02:06):
So, after three years ofnon-stop war, how are Christians
and congregations doing that?
How has the war affected thelife and work of the Church of
Christ in Ukraine?
Today we have two people whocan tell us more about that from
their own firsthand experienceand eyewitness accounts in
Ukraine.
Jeff Abrams, a Church of Christminister, leads Rescue Ukraine,
(02:28):
an independent nonprofitministry that for almost 30
years, has been bringingAmerican and Ukrainian
Christians together to build thebody of Christ and to proclaim
the kingdom of God in Ukraine.
Since Russia's invasion inFebruary 2022, rescue Ukraine
has been mobilizing support forUkrainians both at home and in
(02:49):
the Ukrainian refugee diasporaaround the world.
Marina Noyes is a nativeUkrainian who, with her husband,
jim, planted the VinogradoChurch of Christ in Kiev more
than 20 years ago.
They fled Ukraine when the warstarted, but since then returned
to continue working with thechurch and its neighbors.
Marina and Jim are currently inthe United States, but will
soon return to Kiev to resumetheir work with the church there
(03:12):
.
Jeff, marina, thank you formaking time in wartime to talk
to our audience today.
Jeff Abrams (03:19):
It's an honor to be here, brother.
Marina Noyes (03:21):
Yes, I'm glad to be here.
BT Irwin (03:24):
Well, in our reporting at the Christian Chronicle
since the 1990s, it seems thatthe Ukrainian people have been
exceptional in their receptivityin response to the good news
that Jesus is the Christ.
What can you tell us about howthe Church of Christ found
fertile soil in which to growand multiply in Ukraine over the
(03:46):
last 30 years?
Marina Noyes (03:49):
Well, if you look at it from a historical
perspective, in the last 30years of the Church of Christ in
Ukraine, I think it had severalstages of development.
It had several stages ofdevelopment.
So first it was this first waveof influx of converts that
(04:16):
basically, at that time it wascaused by the fact that people
who had lived under communistpropaganda they began to feel
freedom and they had anopportunity to learn the truth,
and I was one of those people.
So I remember the feelings andaspirations of my people at that
time.
But at that time there weremany, many newly born immature
(04:40):
babies in Christ and they didn'tknow much about the church,
what is church, and you know, Iwas baptized before I was
introduced into the church.
So yeah, and then they came tothe second stage and it was
marked by a very faithful anddiligent work of American
missionaries.
(05:01):
They came and stayed in Ukraineand they helped the immature
Christians get more rooted inthe scriptures, learn about what
biblical leadership is, what isChristian attitude, what is
relationships, true-rightrelationships.
(05:24):
And those missionaries theygave us a very good personal
example and we're very thankfulfor their love and for their
dedication.
And then they came to the thirdstage.
The third stage is whenUkrainian brothers, having been
(05:45):
taught by American teachers,having gone through some schools
and getting some training, theytook responsibilities of
leadership upon themselves andthat gave the church new
opportunities because more andmore people were trained and the
(06:06):
church, getting more mature,started new ministries like
children, teenagers, helping thecommunities of the blind.
Our church was very muchinvolved with the blind
community, the handicapped,prisoners started prison
(06:26):
ministry, low-income families,and that was the time the Lord
gave us peace and the church hadan opportunity to grow.
That time to grow not only inknowledge but in love, showing
mercy, showing kindness andcompassion.
(06:47):
And now let me suggest that nowwe are in the fourth stage of
the Church of Christ in Ukrainebeing tested.
The Church is being tested bythe war.
Jeff Abrams (07:02):
Part of the whole process.
To me it's like they'rereliving the book or duplicating
the book of Acts all acrossUkraine.
Now there's the teaching, thebaptizing, the teaching.
There's the sharing of commongood, there's taking care of the
neighbors.
(07:23):
They're meeting daily fromrefugee house to refugee house
and it's really an amazing thingto see.
It's a beautiful thing to see.
But you know, it all hadn'tbeen roses right, there'd been a
lot of thorns in this time, alot of challenges.
We've had, to my knowledge,about 15 Christians that have
(07:44):
died in this war since thefull-scale invasion.
We've had, to my knowledge,about 15 Christians that have
died in this war since afull-scale invasion.
We've had a lot of Christiansthat have lost everything.
They've lost their cities,they've lost their homes.
Obviously They've lost theirchurch buildings, they've lost
their life savings and they havereally been up against it.
(08:07):
And so many of them have beenlike you used the word tested.
Their faith has been tested,unlike anything.
I think this is the greatestattack on the Lord's Church
since the days of the Romanemperors, certainly the European
church, and I'm just thankfulfor the resilience of our
brothers and sisters in Christ.
(08:27):
But I think this war is givingus generational opportunities to
overcome evil with good, andyou know we need to be best we
can embracing thoseopportunities.
BT Irwin (08:41):
There's been a lot of information or disinformation as
it may be about how bothRussian occupiers and Ukrainian
authorities are treating ormistreating churches.
For example, the Wall StreetJournal reported last year that
in Ukrainian territory that isunder Russian occupation, the
Russians are cracking down onwhat they call evangelical
(09:03):
churches, which I would expectto include the Church of Christ
from Wall Street Journal's pointof view.
And then there are some reportsof Ukrainian authorities
cracking down on churches andrestricting religious freedom
for security reasons.
Y'all have been in Ukrainesince the war started.
You're in touch with churchesin Ukraine every day From what
you gather.
What do you make of thesereports?
Marina Noyes (09:27):
day from what you gather.
What do you make of thesereports?
Well, I want to say thatRussian propaganda has done a
very good job of spreading liesabout the so-called persecutions
of the Russian Orthodox Churchof Moscow patriarchy.
It is true that Ukrainianparliament banned the
denomination, but it was bannedbecause it has become a tool of
(09:50):
undermining the security of ourcountry and the facts of
collaboration cooperation of theRussian Orthodox Church of
Moscow Patriarchy with RussianSecret Service.
Those facts are so innumerablethat it is only a blind who
cannot see them.
At the same time, I do not knowof any other religious
(10:15):
restrictions that would beimposed by Ukrainian authorities
on churches authorities onchurches.
We enjoy religious freedom inUkraine and I have not heard
about any cases of persecution,and since the beginning of the
war, we experienced moretolerance and cooperation among
(10:38):
churches of differentpersuasions, and this is one of
the fruits that the war brought.
Jeff Abrams (10:44):
I've been in the occupied territories a couple of
times since 2014, wheneverRussia pro-Russian forces
initiated all this over, been toDonetsk a couple of times, in
fact, and in those territoriesthat are under Russian control,
there is not freedom of religion, there is oppression.
(11:07):
There were many of my brothersand sisters in Christ in those
areas were afraid to meet withsomebody like me because they're
being watched and they're beingmonitored, and that's from the
Russian side.
That's what Russia does.
That's what Russia does.
That's what Putin does.
The head of the RussianOrthodox Church is a fellow by
(11:29):
the name of Kirill and he seesthis as a religious or holy war.
He, wherever territory isgained by Russia, the Russian
military, he sees that asterritory, as people gained for
his denomination, the RussianOrthodox Church, and, as Marina
(11:50):
has expressed it very well,they're a tool of the Russian
government, russian military.
Kirill there's a lot ofevidence he's a former KGB agent
Coincidentally, vladimir Putinformer KGB agent and those guys
are close.
And so in Russia, there issignificant persecution of
(12:15):
Christians.
There is the denial ofreligious liberties and
evangelism and putting up churchsigns, and in occupied
territories there's more thanthat, and we've actually in the
city of Gorlovka in 2014, abouta month into the war, during a
Sunday morning worship service,masked military people,
(12:39):
pro-russian people, came in andthey interrupted that worship
service, guns pointing, makingthreats.
Basically, they stole thatfacility and we've never gotten
it back.
And we have one of the peoplethat we have here in Tuscumbia
from Ukraine.
She was in that assembly thatday.
It was very terrifying.
(13:00):
People were screaming, fainting.
So that's Russia.
That's the reality of whatRussia does, what they want to
do.
People were screaming, faintingand you know it was hard.
So that's Russia.
That's the reality of whatRussia does, what they want to
do.
If Putin and Kirill have theirway, any land conquered by
Russia in Ukraine, the onlyreligion that will be free to
(13:22):
exercise its rights would be theRussian Orthodox Church.
The Ukraine government has beenextremely friendly with all
religious groups, as far as myinformation, with the exception
of these priests that arepublicly, you know, praying for
the death of Ukrainians, prayingfor the death of Zelensky.
(13:45):
I mean, they were openly, youknow, as in their sermons, as in
their prayers, they're prayingfor the destruction of the land
that they're standing in.
It was, you know, preposterousthing.
And Marina, again I keepgetting back that Marina's right
that you know russianpropaganda is is amazing.
How.
How anybody could believe suchillogical and ludicrous things
(14:09):
is beyond me.
But it is being spoken again.
You know, if you repeat a lieenough times it sounds like the
truth.
But yeah, our experience, ourexperience has been we've had no
restrictions.
We printed and distributedbibles, we've had camps.
I've traveled.
When I, when I tell peoplethese blog posts, I say why are
you here, what are you doing?
I'm a preacher, I've come tocheck on some people, encourage
(14:31):
them, bring Bibles.
Okay, go ahead.
God bless you.
These military people.
They even let me pray with themin these places, frontline
places, we pause for prayer.
So there's a very welcomingenvironment today for the Church
of Christ and, I would say, forall religions.
BT Irwin (14:50):
We talked a little bit before we started recording.
Jeff, when you first startedgoing to Ukraine, you were going
to the eastern part of thecountry, which is now occupied
by Russia.
Now occupied by Russia.
Do you know if any of thosecongregations over there are
still meeting?
Jeff Abrams (15:11):
are still intact In the Donetsk area.
That's kind of the Bible beltof Europe, right?
More Christians in that areathan in all of Europe put
together, I would say.
So in that area there are somecongregations left.
There are some Christians left,but they're in the occupied
territories.
(15:31):
They're very difficult for themto meet to openly worship.
Most of them are not doing thatanymore.
Most of them, whateverworshiping they do, is from
their homes and they've had toleave those areas.
In the cities that are notoccupied but destroyed, if that
makes sense to you.
You know we still have a few, aremnant of Christians there.
(15:55):
We've helped a lot of thoseChristians to evacuate to safer
areas.
But, for example, in Kramatorskthere are still probably 15 to
25 Christians that are there.
They meet every Sunday andthere were Mark while I was with
them just a few weeks ago andthey have maybe 60 to 100 that
will come and worship from thecommunity.
(16:16):
That are refugees that arehaving various material needs
met and then they stay for Bibleclasses material needs met and
then they stay for Bible classes.
That's one of the reasonsthere's been so much numerical
growth, because these refugeesare coming and they're receiving
bread, but also it was a breadof life and they're responding
favorably to what Marinaresponded to three decades ago.
(16:45):
But it's really tough for thesechurches near the contact line.
We have great Christianfamilies in Zaporizhia, in Sumy,
in Kramatorsk, slavyansk,konstantinopoulos.
Now there's just like two orthree Christians.
I know I'm using names with you.
That may not make sense to you,but it's that whole line down
(17:08):
there next to the Russian borderand that's a very challenging
place to be now.
But our Christians, I mean,they're getting used to the
sound of the sirens and thebombs and they just press on,
they just they keep doing whatthey're going to do.
It can be like a fatalistattitude.
If I live, I live.
(17:29):
If I die, I die.
But I'm going to stay here, I'mnot going to run, I'm just
going to put it in the hands ofGod.
Some of them don't even respondanymore to the sound of the
sirens to go underground andtake refuge.
They're just three years of it,they're just tired.
BT Irwin (17:45):
Marina, you live in Ukraine.
You're in New Mexico right nowas we're recording this, but
you're getting ready to headhome to Kiev and you and your
husband are residents there.
You work with the Vina GrataChurch of Christ.
Yes, how?
This is a awfully big questionthat I don't know that you can
answer.
(18:05):
But let's take it down to thepersonal level, to individuals
and to households.
At three years, in how much haslife changed for our Ukrainian
brothers and sisters in Christ?
I mean, what is life like nowand how?
How are how are they dealingwith?
Marina Noyes (18:24):
life.
Okay, I want to tell you thatthere hasn't been any single
person in the whole country ofUkraine there hasn't been any
single person who has not beenaffected by the war.
Some lost their loved ones,some lost their, their homes.
(18:46):
Some have their family membersserving in the front line.
Some mothers that we know havetheir sons missing in action,
maybe somewhere in prisonRussian as war prisoners may be
lost, they do not know.
Some had to flee abroad and hadto find some refuge in other
(19:12):
countries.
Many people lost their jobs,many people developed health
issues because of daily stresses.
Almost all, I would say, havebeen emotionally wounded.
Jeff Abrams (19:30):
No doubt.
Marina Noyes (19:31):
It's the whole nation emotionally wounded,
emotionally suffering people,emotionally wounded, emotionally
suffering people.
And another thing they alllearn to survive under missile
attacks, under drone attacks,with night alarms, blackouts,
(19:53):
heating shortages, watershortages, and I think Apostle
Paul and his words in 2Corinthians I think they
describe this condition betterthan anyone else.
This is what Apostle Paul saidwe are hard-pressed on every
(20:14):
side, but not crushed.
Perplexed but not in despair,struck down but not destroyed.
This is the spirit of thecountry and the church as the
spiritual leader of the country.
Jeff Abrams (20:32):
You know, I had a lady named Anna that I became
friends with back in 1990.
She was a babushka, which meansa grandmother, but she was
never married.
The love of her life died inWorld War II actually, and she
was the oldest Christian inUkraine and you know, her
(20:55):
attitude is so representative ofso many Christians there where
I tried to persuade her.
I would go she's like aUkrainian mother to me.
I would go and persuade her.
Kramatorsk is a dangerous city.
There the Russians are about 15miles away and they can reach
it with artillery and it's notan ideal situation.
(21:18):
And I would beg her, you know,talk to her like a son to a
mother.
I say we have a place, we havepeople that take care of you.
And I thought she'd listen tome.
She's her first word,translated to me, was the word
impossible.
Now you're not, not gonna leaveher.
Her attitude was she said I washere when the Germans occupied
(21:39):
Kramatorsk.
When the Russians come, if theydo, if I can survive the
Germans, I'll survive theRussians.
And she said my next stop whenI leave Kramatorsk is going to
be heaven.
And I was there with her lastjanuary for her 90, for 100th
(22:00):
birthday party.
And then a couple months later,she, she died and I wasn't able
to be there for a funeral.
But I went back a few weekslater and went to a grave, took
some roses, we said some words,had a prayer, but her attitude
is is one that that is like itis the voice of our faithful
(22:21):
brothers and sisters in Christ.
Marina Noyes (22:23):
I think that the Lord, in His incomprehensible
divine wisdom, prepared HisChurch in Ukraine for this trial
of the war, and Hispreparations were twofold.
Basically, there were two majortesting and training grounds
for the church.
One came in 2014, and at thattime many people had to flee
(22:46):
from the east, from thoseoccupied towns, and there were
lots of Christians among them,and those were the Christians
that they found new spiritualfamilies in other parts of
Ukraine.
They joined other churches inother parts of Ukraine and by
their example of how to reallydeal with trials and
(23:10):
prosecutions, other churcheswere strengthened.
Also at that time, somepreachers from the East.
They relocated to Ukraine andthey either planted new
congregations or preached in thealready established
(23:31):
congregations.
So the churches in other partsof Ukraine was strengthened at
that time and that was the firsttesting.
At that time we first time welearned what is IDP internally
displaced people, refugees, soto speak.
(23:53):
Well, and those refugees foundsupport and help of the churches
and the church for the firsttime learned what to do with
them, how to provide them withdwelling places, this food
distribution and, of course, howto offer this spiritual and
(24:16):
moral support to the refugees.
Little did we know at that timethat the Lord prepared us for
something bigger.
So that was the first test, andthe second test came, or maybe
the Lord's second tool ofpreparation.
It's the pandemic COVIDpandemic because at that time
(24:40):
the church learned to teach andpreach online when the members
are scattered and or sitting intheir homes, and we learned to
keep in touch with each otherthrough groups in messengers.
But little did we know at thattime, also that it was a
preparation for a bigger test,but that gave Ukrainian
(25:03):
Christians an opportunity not tolose contacts with their
churches.
And it's like now we have aprayer group which is online,
and the members of our prayergroup are scattered Some are in
Europe, some are in undergroundchurch in the occupied territory
and some are in Kiev.
(25:25):
And here we are in America, yousee.
But those things were reallythe preparations for the trials,
and this preparation that theLord gave helped us to endure
these trials.
BT Irwin (25:42):
I should note that, just before we recorded this,
marina was in a Bible study withsome.
Marina Noyes (25:48):
Christians in Ukraine over Zoom.
BT Irwin (25:49):
I was going to ask you about that.
Recent survey data has shown adecline in evangelical support
for US financial and militaryassistance to Ukraine, and I
know a lot of Church of Christfolks don't consider us
evangelical, but pollsters do,because we share some common
characteristics with what theyclassify as evangelicals.
Our focus here in thisinterview is not how much, if
(26:12):
any, financial and militarysupport the United States should
give to Ukraine as a nation andmilitary support the United
States should give to Ukraine asa nation.
However, recent times haveproven that those kinds of
political debates can color theattitudes and actions of
Christians and congregations.
So with the change inadministration in Washington DC
and recent events, have youdetected any kind of change of
(26:32):
attitude among Christians in theUnited States as regards coming
alongside and supporting theirbrothers and sisters in Ukraine?
Marina Noyes (26:41):
Well, I want to address that.
I think that those Christiansin America who have been to
Ukraine or who personally knowsome Ukrainians or heard their
testimonies, I don't think theirattitude will change or has
changed or will change.
Those that have followed theevents, the developments from
(27:06):
the very beginning.
I think they have already madeup their minds and they know
what is right, what is wrong,who is the aggressor, who is the
victim.
I don't think that those peoplewill be shaken or turned.
However, recently I began tonotice that some Christians in
(27:28):
America begin to more agree withpoliticians rather than with
the word of God, and that isshocking to me.
You know, and I think there's avery good advice that Solomon
gave to all of us, and Solomonsays whoever says to the guilty,
(27:52):
you are innocent will be cursedby people and denounced by
nations.
It's in Proverbs 24, 24.
It's just not by people cursedby people and denounced by
nations.
So I don't want to be cursed ordenounced and I think that many
(28:16):
Christians will just need tounderstand where the truth is.
It goes through all thispropaganda and lies.
Jeff Abrams (28:26):
You know there's undoubtedly taking place a
trickle-down effect from thedivisive political rhetoric, the
pro-Russian propaganda.
Again, if something is repeatedover and over, it can be a lie,
but it begins to sound like thetruth.
(28:47):
Zelensky's a thief.
Ukraine is corrupt.
You know they don't want peace,they provoke the war and any.
If someone is even a little bitreluctant to give or to pray to
begin with, that kind of can bethe domino that pushes them on
(29:09):
over and says okay, I'm out.
I don't know who's right, who'swrong, I don't.
So I'm just not gonna, I'm notgonna, I'm not gonna help, I
don't trust the situation and,and you know we, I gotta be
careful how we express this.
But for, for a guy like me,who's, when I think of Ukraine,
(29:30):
it's family, it's, it's, it's,it's blood.
For me it's, it's everythingfor me, it's my heart, right,
just like marina's, and to hereven more, of course.
But when I hear, when I hearamerica first, america first,
america first I, I listen tothat through, uh, through
(29:51):
ukrainian lens and and you knowit almost sounds like if you're
not american, and you know italmost sounds like if you're not
American, I'm not going to helpyou, I'm not going to care
about you.
And we've got to be Christiansfirst and we belong to a
heavenly kingdom.
And there's nothing in theBible that says I'm to be more
(30:22):
concerned about a neighbor basedon their proximity to me, their
ability to repay me, whatlanguage they speak, what
passport they have, I mean.
And so there's undoubtedlygoing to be a chilling effect in
the Lord's church among peoplewho know better, and so it's up
to people like me, like Marina,like the listeners of this
podcast, to say, hey, come on,we got to help.
We got to help these folks.
They're in a ditch and we havegreat opportunity, we have
generational opportunity to stepup and be a true blessing to
(30:46):
people who would do the same forus and do the same for us.
Ukrainian Christians are.
They're not perfect.
They got their flaws, like weall do, but they're so kind,
they're so generous, they're sowilling to help their neighbor
and we need to do for them whatthey're doing for each other
best we can.
BT Irwin (31:07):
We're recording this.
It's interesting we'rerecording this a few days after
the meeting that PresidentZelensky had with President
Trump in the White House and weall know how that went.
And it's interesting that Idon't engage in social media,
but I still snoop around inthere sometimes.
I have a lot of friends, a lot,a lot, a lot of friends in the
(31:28):
Church of Christ.
It was curious to me that inthe days following that Oval
Office meeting, how many ofthose Church of Christ folks
started posting things aboutZelensky being a thief, things
that I'd never seen them be veryinterested in before.
So, circling around to thisquestion, both of you talked
(31:49):
about how important it was whenAmerican missionaries came to
Ukraine in the 1990s.
American missionaries came toUkraine in the 1990s and the
love and the support that thechurch in the United States has
poured into the church inUkraine over the last 30 years.
How are Christians in Ukraineprocessing what they must be
(32:11):
hearing about what's going on inthe United States right now?
Marina Noyes (32:16):
Well, I think the latest tension in the
relationship between ourcountries.
First it brought the feeling ofshock, complete shock, and then
the feeling of betrayal.
But after getting over theshock, we began to come back to
the old truth that we should nottrust kings and their alliances
(32:41):
, that we trust the Lord and hisword, and this is what we need
to stand on.
This is the position of thechurch in Ukraine, I could say.
Jeff Abrams (32:56):
Georgian Ukraine I could say.
Well, I would add to that thereis some justified concern about
Russia and America, and maybesome European nations, just kind
of going off by themselves anddetermining the fate of Ukraine
(33:18):
and Ukrainians.
And there has been a lot ofrhetoric on social media that is
very disappointing frombrothers and sisters in Christ.
It is the repeating of falseinformation.
It is I'm ashamed to say thisit is, it is.
(33:38):
It is from the Kremlin morethan from Christ.
It is Russian propaganda and,for example, even in in
president Trump's speech lastnight it was there were so many
elements of it that weChristians would agree to.
That makes us more vulnerableto agree with everything and
need to, and that makes us morevulnerable to agree with
(33:59):
everything.
And when political leaders havegreat influence and they say
things that aren't true aboutUkraine, we know.
Not true.
It's bona fide, easily provable.
But when our brothers andsisters in Christ, when they
have such allegiance to apersonality that they lose the
(34:21):
ability to filter out what isreal and what is false,
especially if you're alreadyinclined America, first hang on
to our stuff.
We're not going to be victimsanymore.
We're the piggy bank of theworld, we're the policemen of
the world and we're just tiredof that and it's extremely
(34:45):
troubling.
I am active on social media andFacebook.
I'm trying to get the truth outthere in a positive way, bring
us together, help us to notdivide over political
disagreements, and we can be afaithful Christian and still
disagree with our politicalleaders.
We can be a faithful Christianand still disagree with other
faithful Christians, and we'vegot to keep the kingdom of God
(35:08):
in focus and our mission infocus.
And this war, while giving usagain generational opportunities
to do good, it's also givingthe devil an opportunity to
divide us, and it blows my mind.
I was on a Zoom call thismorning with people in Ukraine,
(35:28):
and today our government is notonly withholding military
assistance to help Ukrainiansdefend themselves against
missiles and drones and bullets,but now we are withholding from
them the intelligence that letsthem know a missile is coming
(35:49):
your way.
There are apps that Ukrainiansuse.
They can tell a cruise missileis headed to.
Key drones are coming, take,take, shelter.
A lot of that information comesfrom american intelligence, our
satellites, our, our planes andand, and now our country's
saying no, no.
(36:10):
It's like ukraine is beingblackmailed to to surrender or
be obliterated.
That's the peace plan.
And so what do we do?
You know we're encouraged asChristians to add a politics and
just focus on spreading thegospel, but they're intertwined
here.
Some and I even fear Marina maycan address this more than I
(36:32):
can, but I fear that someUkrainians will be less
receptive to a gospel that isbeing brought to Ukraine by
Americans, because you know, weAmericans betrayed Ukraine.
We sided with the invader, withthe dictator, and we don't want
any more to do with you or yourgospel.
(36:53):
Surely that will be an upcomingconcern.
Marina Noyes (36:59):
That's true.
This is one of the concernsthat might be, but also another.
Ukraine doesn't want theso-called Ruski Mir, russian
world, because it would mean theprosecution of Christians,
evangelical churches and noreligious freedom.
We know that.
(37:19):
We look at Russia.
Look at Russia.
There's only one bigdenomination, the right one, so
to speak.
There's no religious freedomthere.
Look at the occupiedterritories what they're doing
there to our churches.
So territories, what they'redoing there to our churches.
(37:39):
So this is the biggest concernof Ukrainian Christians, I think
, because one of the things thatwe've been really enjoying in
Ukraine since Ukraine becameindependent is religious freedom
.
It's true, religious freedom,and if Russia comes, it will be
taken away from us and this isthe dearest thing for us.
(38:01):
We don't want that.
BT Irwin (38:04):
Well, I want to close with the assertion that all the
land in the world belongs to Godand God is present and working
on every square inch of theearth.
And, as Psalms 2 says,nation-states are always
conspiring and plotting, but Godlaughs and has them in derision
.
So, even as war is raging inUkraine, no army can evict God
from God's own earth and God'sown land.
(38:25):
And even as the killing andmaiming go on and on, god is
making new life and resurrectinglife.
Would each of you close us outby telling us a recent story of
where you have witnessed God atwork in a powerful way, among
the Ukrainian people or inUkraine?
Marina Noyes (38:43):
Well, I want to share one fact.
On February the 12th, ukrainianparliament established a
national day of prayer inUkraine.
There are only two countries inthe world that have a national
day of prayer, so from now on,february 24th is to be annually
(39:10):
observed as a national day ofprayer, and this year, the first
time in history, the Ukraine'sparliament began its session by
performing the spiritual prayeranthem.
That was unprecedented, butthis is the first time it's
going to happen now annually onthat day, and that reminded me
(39:31):
of the words in 2 Chronicles,7-14.
714, if my people, who arecalled by my name, will humble
themselves and pray and seek myface and turn from their wicked
ways, then I will hear fromheaven and I will forgive their
sin and will heal their land.
(39:53):
And here is what is interesting.
And here is what is interesting.
The latest turbulent events onthe international arena began
after February the 12th, andthey got especially hot after
(40:14):
the 24th day of February.
It looks like Satan, the fatherof all lies, is at great rage
right now Because Ukraine, onthe national level, on the level
of its government, is turningto God and at the same time, the
(40:37):
Lord began to expose someleaders.
And the Lord is reallyrevealing now what is in the
hearts of many men, of many,many, both rulers and common
citizens.
That is all happening sincethat new law that was issued.
Jeff Abrams (41:03):
There's a preacher, for example, in the frontline
city of Sumy.
His name is Andrei.
Prior to the war, prior to thefull-scale invasion, andrei had
never even held a gun in hishand.
When the Russians invaded, hejoined his local militia.
He learned how to shoot ajavelin and since getting that
(41:30):
education he's very successfullydefended his city against
Russian invasion, especially intanks.
He's killed himself three tanks.
He's been decorated for hisheroism in battle.
We helped him not only get avan but to reinforce the van
(41:54):
with metal sheets and I visitedhim on multiple occasions.
You can see the bullet holes inthis van from Russian fire and
he's paid such a high pricebecause of this war.
His son has been killed inbattle recently and I was with
(42:15):
him a few weeks ago, with Andreand you know, just praying with
him and crying with him.
It just puts a face to thistragedy.
It's not a statistic, you know.
And he has three brothers thatare also fighting against
(42:36):
Russian forces.
He has a sister that isfighting, two of his brothers
have been severely injured, onewith a brain injury.
Both of them are stillhospitalized in Kiev and one may
not survive.
And I know of no family, noUkrainian family.
Certainly that's paid a higherprice than this.
(42:56):
There's another preacher overthere named Alex.
Before he was enlisted ordrafted in the Army a few weeks
ago, he looked like John theBaptist would look, I think Long
hair and just loves his musickind of an artsy guy.
Just got married and he neverreally stepped up and led the
(43:20):
Lord's people.
But the professional preachersrelocated to safer areas.
He stayed there in Kramatorskand I met him where he's in his
training camp in an undisclosedlocation a few weeks ago and,
you know, took him a bunch ofhand warmers and he's just such
a great fellow.
He's got such a big heart forthe Lord, for his country, and
(43:44):
he could have chosen to run away, but he chose to run to the
fight, you know, and to you knowhe's willing to die for the
freedoms that we take forgranted here.
And how can you not stand withpeople like that?
How can we ignore them and justsay that's far away from here
(44:05):
and that's not our problem andit is our problem?
You know, when one Christianhurts, we all hurt, and there
are a lot of UkrainianChristians that are hurting.
And this is an opportunity forus to show something of our
character, show something of theheart of Christ that presumably
lives in us.
BT Irwin (44:22):
People are listening to this all over the world right
now.
I would include we do havelisteners in Russia to this
program and 117 countries andthe United States all 50 states.
So here at the very end.
If Christians are listening tothis anywhere in the world and
they want to help, what can theydo?
Jeff Abrams (44:41):
We do need to pray.
We need to pray fervently,frequently, faithfully, and that
ought to be a mandate not justin every congregation, but in
every Christian, in every family, every home.
We need to be praying daily forUkraine.
If we believe in the power ofprayer, we believe this is
actually a winnable war.
That's the message, you know.
(45:02):
It just aggravates me to no endwhen I hear someone say this is
an unwinnable war.
It's like saying that God isnot going to answer my prayers.
I'm praying that it is winnable.
David's battle looked unwinnable.
Right Christ's battle with thegrave looked unwinnable.
Daniel's fight with the lionslooked unwinnable.
(45:24):
But prayers get answered whenwe lift them up.
But, furthermore, we need toput feet on our prayers.
We need to cry.
We need to cry out.
We need to encourage ourUkrainian brethren.
We need to give of our treasureto cry out.
We need to encourage ourUkrainian brethren.
We need to give of our treasureto help them and whomsoever.
(45:45):
Much is given that's me.
Much is required, and RescueUkraine is a nonprofit
organization.
We've got our website,rescueukrainecom.
People can go there, they cangive, and I appreciate people's
trust in us and what we'retrying to do and we try to be
(46:05):
good stewards of everything thatcomes to us and there's not a
day that goes by that we're notin contact with Ukrainians that
need to know we're standing withthem faithfully and also
financially, and I appreciateChristian Chronicle and doing so
much good to keep this news outthere in people's consciousness
(46:31):
, in their hearts and aware ofopportunities to step up and
overcome evil with good.
This is an opportunity thatwe've never had in our lifetime
before to show the power of good, and again I'm grateful for so
many brothers and sisters inChrist who do care and do help,
(46:53):
who are making a difference.
Don't stop.
BT Irwin (46:57):
Well, like I said at the top of the show, we'll put
links in the show notes to allof the ways that you can help
the church in Ukraine.
We'll also put links to theChristian Chronicles extensive
coverage of the church inUkraine, not only over the last
three years but the last 30years, so you can get the whole
story.
Jeff, marina, all of us who arelistening to you today join in
(47:23):
prayer for you and with you, andfor the people and places you
love in Ukraine and forUkrainians who have spread out
all over the world.
Thank you for sharing with ustoday.
Marina Noyes (47:32):
Thank you.
Jeff Abrams (47:33):
Thank you for giving us this opportunity.
Slava, slava Ukraine.
God bless you.
God bless Christian Chronicle,and God bless everybody that's
listening, that has SlavaUkraine.
God bless you.
God bless Christian Chronicle,and God bless everybody that's
listening that has a heart forUkraine.
Our brothers and sisters needus to step up.
Marina Noyes (47:48):
Thank you.
BT Irwin (47:50):
We hope that something you heard in this episode
encouraged, enlightened orenriched you in some way.
If it did, thanks be to God andplease pay it forward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Recommend and review itwherever you listen to your
favorite podcasts.
Your subscription,recommendation and review help
(48:11):
us reach more people and pleasesend your comments, ideas and
suggestions to podcast atchristianchronicleorg.
Don't forget our ministry toinform and inspire Christians
and congregations around theworld is a non-profit ministry
that relies on your generosity.
So if you like the show and youwant to keep it going and make
(48:34):
it even better, please make atax-deductible gift to the
Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg.
Slash donate Until next time.
May grace and peace be yours inabundance.
Holly Linden (48:47):
The Christian Chronicle podcast is a
production of the ChristianChronicle Inc.
Informing and inspiring Churchof Christ congregations, members
and ministries around the worldsince 1943.
Members and ministries aroundthe world since 1943.
The Christian ChroniclesManaging Editor is Audrey
Jackson, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and President and CEO
(49:08):
Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle Podcastis written, directed, hosted
and edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan in
Detroit, michigan, USA.
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