April 3, 2025 • 29 mins
It is a common narrative (assumption?) that Church of Christ congregations in rural and small town America are in decline. Perhaps that is a story that numbers (of congregations and members) might tell.
But are numbers the whole story? Or even the most important one?
Mike Cope believes it is not the whole story. In this episode, he talks about how the way we talk and think about rural and small town congregations needs to change and how those congregations enjoy spiritual gifts that make them rich and strong in things that matter.
Mike also fills us in on how Pepperdine University plans to invest a $7.5 million Lilly Endowment grant to come alongside rural and small town Church of Christ congregations to position them for the growth in the kingdom of God.
Link to The Christian Chronicle's coverage of the Lilly Endowment's grant to Pepperdine University
Attend the 52nd Annual Caribbean Lectureship in Barbados this July 13 - 16, 2025. Learn more and register at caribbeanlectureship.com.
Learn more about Freed-Hardeman University graduate degrees in New Testament or Old Testament at fhu.edu/chronicle.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
BT Irwin (00:19):
Thank you, you and honor God.
I'm so thankful that God calledme to the ministry of preaching
and teaching in Church ofChrist congregations that either
cannot afford a full-timeminister or cannot find one for
whatever reason.
This ministry has taken me tocongregations in many rural
areas and small towns in thepart of the country where I live
.
Few things fill me with morejoy than being a guest in these
(00:44):
congregations.
Even if I'm visiting one forthe first time, it still feels
like coming home.
That is the magic of smallChurch of Christ congregations
in the American heartland.
But along with the magic,something else hangs in the air
fear and sadness.
In every small towncongregation in which I preached
or taught over the last 25years, I heard stories of
(01:06):
decline, loss and teetering onthe edge of congregational death
.
Indeed, some of thecongregations that I visited
over the years no longer exist.
The ones that keep going do sogrieving the loss of what once
was and worrying about a futurethat seems to be getting shorter
by the year.
For years now, the ChristianChronicle has covered the trend
(01:28):
of congregations shrinking untilthey disappear.
Almost every article and columnwe publish on the subject
implies or asks the questionsoutright Do Church of Christ
congregations in rural areas andsmall towns have a future.
Will that future look like thepast?
And if not, how might it lookdifferent?
And how might congregationsembrace a different-looking
(01:50):
future and yet remain faithfuland obedient to the Lord, Jesus
Christ, who is the sameyesterday, today and forever?
The good news is that thosecongregations now have another
partner and resource to comealongside them.
Earlier this year, the LillyEndowment granted Pepperdine
University $7.5 million to fundits new Empower and Equip
(02:12):
initiative, which is on amission to strengthen the
leadership and ministries ofChurch of Christ congregations
in rural areas and small townsin the United States.
Here to tell us more is our oldfriend, Mike Cope, Director of
Ministry Outreach at PepperdineUniversity.
Mike, welcome to the exclusivecircle of the Three Times, a
Guest Club.
Mike Cope (02:30):
Thank you so much.
Bt Feels like a Saturday NightLive cast of people who've been
on multiple times.
BT Irwin (02:36):
Yeah, you're going to get a jacket one of these days.
So we're talking about thedecline in membership in numbers
of Church of Christcongregations in rural areas and
small towns.
It's a long running story inthe Christian Chronicle and a
trend that goes back for decadesnow.
How is seven and a half milliondollars going to turn that
around?
Mike Cope (02:56):
Well, money fixes everything, doesn't it?
No, of course it won't.
No, of course it won't.
(03:27):
But the Lilly Endowment lookedout and kept getting feedback
that predominantly focuses onsuburban urban churches.
In the had chances, as I waswriting the grant, to go listen
to leaders from Churches ofChrist who are in rural and
small town churches.
I attended Polishing the Pulpitfor the first time in eastern
Tennessee, tried to reconnectwith several people in my
heritage and I've learned a lot,but I'm looking forward to
learning a lot more as we goforward.
(03:48):
So the money will be helpful.
The Lilly Endowment has beengenerous but of course it is
just there to parlay and whatwe're calling the program
empower and equip, to try tohelp people.
BT Irwin (04:01):
Well, I'm going to ask you more questions about that
in a second, but I've done a lotof grant applications in my
time and I know whenever you doa grant application you've got
to come with some data and someprimary research.
So you mentioned you were outin the field exploring yourself.
I'm sure you have a lot ofother colleagues that were doing
the same.
What are some things youlearned about congregations and
(04:23):
rural areas and small towns?
And maybe another way to askthat question is what are some
assumptions most folks may getwrong about those congregations?
What are some stereotypes wemay need to drop right here and
now?
Mike Cope (04:37):
Well, the people that are writing a lot about rural
and small town churches andthere is quite a body of
literature out there, rural andsmall town churches, and there
is quite a body of literatureout there are saying that very
often, when we think ofespecially rural congregations,
we tend to vacillate betweensort of a Mayberry view of the
(04:57):
bucolic, idyllic ruralenvironment that's typically the
ones by those who don't livethere A Wendell Berry view you
know, every conference has tobegin with a Wendell Berry poem
to alternate between that and asense that rural communities
have fallen apart, as ifunemployment's, you know,
(05:18):
irreversible and many of themare nothing but meth labs.
So on either side you have thisoverly positive and overly
negative.
But in the middle what they'reall insisting is that these are
still like suburban and urbanareas.
This is where God resides,these are God's people.
(05:40):
The places are where thepresence of God is.
I think there's a stereotypethat they're all in decline, but
that's not true.
Now we know the numbers inchurches of Christ that are
across the board will applythere, but a lot of that's
(06:02):
because of where the flow ofemployment has been, that many
people have left ruralcommunities For many of these
churches.
If you lose one family withthree kids, you know it can't
help but significantly impactyour attendance.
But there's a lot happening inthese places.
Rural is sometimes marked bynumbers, but these writers are
(06:26):
insisting that you should thinkof rural and small town as
places marked by knowing andbeing known.
They're marked by narrativesthat have thickness to them.
In suburban and urban areas wetend to measure church by how
many babies are in the nurseryand how many young families
there are, and it may look verydifferent when you get out into
(06:48):
rural communities.
They may run older but theremay be wisdom and long tenures
of connecting with communitiesin redemptive ways.
BT Irwin (06:59):
I think one of the interesting things about this
undertaking that you have thereat Pepperdine is I've grown up
in the Church of Christ my wholelife.
We're a very evangelisticpeople and I grew up in a small
town.
Our church had about 300members and we were all about
evangelism.
So we're talking door knocking,we're talking tracts.
(07:21):
We did One Nation Under God, ifyou remember that, back in the
80s and 90s, right, and then wesent a lot of missionaries and
one of the things that reallygot us going is when a
missionary would come in andtalk about going to a major
population center, a big city ora suburb, either in the United
States or another part of theworld, because it's just math,
right, if you're trying to savesouls, send your missionary or
(07:43):
your evangelist to where thereare a lot, a lot of people.
And so this, this project withcongregations in small towns and
sparsely populated areas, iskind of a change or it departs
from what I've known growing upin the Church of Christ, where
we we really focus on the bignumbers.
Mike Cope (08:03):
People who have a larger historical perspective,
like Leonard Allen.
Leonard just insisted.
We were bred and born in ruraland small-town communities.
That that's rich in our blood.
We tend to be most aware oflarger congregations and they,
of course, are going to be inthe areas with larger
populations, but much of thework that's been done in and
(08:27):
through and sometimes despitewho we are, has been out in
these rural and small towncommunities.
So for us it's not a both, andI now lead four Lilly-sponsored
initiatives for Pepperdine, anda lot of the work is in suburban
urban areas, but this one inparticular is to go back out
into these churches that oftenare the anchor institutions in
(08:51):
their communities.
As there are problems acrossthe board in rural and small
town areas, these churches havebecome even more vital.
Vital, and one thing I loveabout them is they carry still
many of them carry still the DNAof evangelism that has always
marked churches of Christ thatour work is connected to the
(09:14):
saving work of Jesus Christ forthe redemption of the whole
world, and we don't want to moveaway from that.
BT Irwin (09:21):
Amen, amen.
I preach and teach in a lot ofsmall churches.
It's a ministry I feel like Godhas called me to and I've
enjoyed it.
Um and uh over the years.
Something I say almost everytime I visit a new church at the
beginning of a sermon is um,you know, the Lord has given you
everything you need.
Right, don't think that theLord is only Lord has given you
(09:43):
everything you need.
And one of the superpowers thatI think small congregations have
that would make largecongregations jealous is how
people take care of each other.
So you know, the announcementsat my church with two, three
hundred members are on aPowerPoint slide that rotates
the beginning of service, but Isit in the back pew after I
preach at these small churchesand the announcements.
(10:03):
Announcements are more likefamily conversations where
people talk about where isso-and-so today and here's a
need and I can take care of thatand it's a superpower I think
small churches have.
So talk a little more.
You said being in a small townis about knowing and being known
little more about how smallcongregations or congregations
(10:26):
in these small communities areuniquely gifted by the Holy
Spirit in a way that might makelarger congregations a little
envious of their superpowers.
Mike Cope (10:33):
And, by the way, part of this literature that I
referred to is about that, thevery advantage of smaller
churches, or at least churchesin these rural and small town
communities.
And like you, I have thesewonderful memories, even though
I preached for mostly largerchurches.
(10:53):
I was bred and born inSouthwest Missouri and my first
gospel meetings I held were inplaces like Seneca, missouri,
and Mount Vernon, missouri,Nevada, missouri and so on.
So I still have a tender placefor that.
But it's not just eulogizing,it's not just a Wendell Berry
(11:15):
poem and, by the way, I loveWendell Berry but it's the
reality of, I know, in a largerchurch, when they're what it's
like to be the minister into thelast minute somebody comes up
and says, hey, can you announcethis?
And you try to figure out whatdo we and what don't we announce
.
But in smaller churches thereis this sense of family and that
(11:36):
it would be inappropriate notto mention it.
You get a sense of the power ofthese house churches.
Paul's dominoing around theMediterranean, trying to launch
these beachheads of the kingdom,and you can feel in his letters
that, the power of those.
One great memory I have mysenior year at Harding.
Stan Granberg and I wereco-ministers at the All Red
(11:59):
Church of Christ, which I thinkit was about an hour and a half,
two hour drive from Harding,but one of us would preach in
the morning, the other wouldlead singing, we'd reverse it at
night.
But it's again, it's more thanjust nostalgia, it's remembering
the power of the witness ofthat church in their community.
(12:20):
So I'm still struck by that.
I'm struck by what I've learnedabout these communities as I've
traveled around, talked topeople.
Somebody said these arecommunities where if a dollar
store moves in, it changes yourlife for the better.
In a suburban we complain aboutall of the family dollar stores
(12:41):
and so on, but they're sayingboy, one moves in, it can change
your life for the better.
And somebody else said well,what marks us is I know a guy.
If you're in a large urbanchurch, something goes wrong.
You call the experts.
But in many of these churches Iknow a guy, I know somebody,
because it's largely aboutknowing and being known.
I have been trying to dig downinto this.
(13:02):
I've read that part of whycrime is lower in rural and
small town communities is crimedepends on anonymity.
It's a little tough to get awaywith something when everybody
knows who it was you know, whenyou pretty much know the people
in your neighborhood.
So that's something to draw on,since the gospel is all about
(13:23):
relationships, loving God,loving your neighbor.
I think there is a centeredplace for this redemptive
witness.
BT Irwin (13:34):
So in my opening to the episode I said a lot of
small town congregations that Iencounter have been fearful of
the future in recent years.
But if our call is from theLord and the Lord empowers and
equips us, the future is alwaysbright, no matter what we see
happening in the present.
So where do you see the biggestopportunities for small town
(13:55):
congregations to enter once moreinto the growth and life of God
?
How might they build for thekingdom of God now and in the
future?
Mike Cope (14:07):
Yeah, I think what I'm learning as I listen to
fellow leaders of churches isthat, rather than panic, there
needs to be a time ofdiscernment, a time of pulling
away.
I always love Dallas Willard'squote.
He said if you don't come apartfor a while, you will come apart
(14:28):
after a while.
And he points out even theMessiah didn't have a messianic
complex.
The Messiah pulled away and hespent time discerning, he spent
time in prayer, he spent timewith a few, but then to be able
to develop again a cleartheological identity and out of
justice for evangelism and toknow a community means that we
(15:07):
are combining both narrative anddata.
So we want to know where welive and who the people are
around us, and then we want topractice good stewardship.
We bring things to thecommunity, and that matches up
with what Lily has asked of thisprogram.
They've asked for three things.
They've asked that we go abouthelping to develop and encourage
(15:30):
leadership, that we try toassist in missional imagination
so that churches aren't justdiscouraged because maybe they
aren't as big as they were inthe past, and that we help them
understand what anchors in thecommunity they are and what it
means to have collaboration withcommunity ministries, all in
(15:53):
the context, again, of believingthat everything's related to
the saving worth of Jesus.
BT Irwin (15:59):
Yes, yes.
So let's get down to the nittygritty.
You've got seven and a halfmillion dollars from Lilly
Endowment and you started whatyou call the Empower and Equip
initiative for Church of Christcongregations in rural areas and
small towns.
How will this initiativeactually work?
Who will be doing the work andwhat will they be doing?
Mike Cope (16:19):
will this initiative actually work?
Who will be doing the work andwhat will they be doing?
Well, the program that we havewritten by the way, john Barton
is my assistant director in this.
I think most of your audienceknows John, but the program we
wrote has a national focus and aregional focus.
So on the national level, we'reworking with several partners
to try to do what we can broadlyfor Churches of Christ.
(16:42):
Through the Seibert Instituteat Abilene Christian University,
we hope to have a podcastfocused on rural and small town
churches.
We're trying to develop alibrary that will be useful for
churches, especially since manyare finding it hard to find
somebody to preach If they'refinding resources like that
difficult.
We want to make it free andeasily available.
(17:05):
The Christian Chronicle is oneof our partners in this.
They're going to have a specialfocus on, as they have in the
past on, small town and ruralchurches.
They'll continue doing that andrural churches They'll continue
doing that.
Mission Alive, kairos, ourchurch planting, national
partners.
And then another of ourpartners is Stan Granberg's
(17:27):
Church Research Council, becausethis work he's doing to try to
give us a new census, a newdirectory for churches of Christ
, is so important.
We haven't had one in a longtime.
So that'll overlap witheverything else we're doing by
knowing where these churches are, who to contact.
And then, on a regional level,we're partnering with several
(17:50):
other of our Christianinstitutions, I guess especially
the ones that I've hadconnection with in my life,
especially the ones that I'vehad connection with in my life.
They're going to be developingtheir own programs.
So it'll be up to Rochester,it'll be up to York, it'll be up
to Lubbock Christian and so onto develop a program that can
(18:10):
reach their area and we'retrusting them as full partners.
I just got off a Zoom with mostof these partners.
It's very excited.
I'm just trusting that God isgoing to use us together and
then we'll get together, eitheron Zoom or maybe once a year
together in person to share whatwe're learning.
And again, the wisdom goes awayall the way down.
(18:34):
In this I'm like the one who'sgot the greatest learning curve
and I've got these partners whoare learning all they can.
But the real richness andwisdom of this is embedded in
the actual members and leadersof these rural and small-town
churches.
We just want to provide someresources and bring them
together in ways that they canbe helpful to each other.
(18:55):
It's not like Pepperdine isgoing to spend the full $7.5
million we're re-granting tothese institutions so that they
have the resources toparticipate.
BT Irwin (19:06):
Well, you know, foundations always want reports
when they give out money.
What measures of success didyou choose for this initiative
and how will you know what youare doing is working?
Mike Cope (19:17):
That's the tough one, isn't it?
We love metrics.
What you are doing is workingUh, that's the tough one, isn't
it?
We love metrics.
And metrics are important.
Uh, we all know that in aproject like this, bodies,
budgets and buildings is goingto tell a piece of the story,
but not all of it.
What we're really thinkingabout is faithfulness and
fruitfulness.
Um, faithfulness, especiallyabout who you are, and
fruitfulness about what you aredoing.
(19:39):
Of course, they're two sides ofthe same coins so it's hard to
separate them.
But, as I said, it's going tobe difficult in these because
one family leaves and it's likea trampoline you know where one
family comes in.
So it will be notoriouslydifficult to have some of the
traditional metrics.
But, having said that, we aregoing to work with these
(20:00):
churches and ask about ways thatwe can evaluate the development
of leaders and the developmentof missional imagination and the
development of anchorrelationships and communities,
relationships and communities.
(20:21):
Lilly has some specific thingsin mind, but we're going to work
with our partners to try tomake sure that we have fiduciary
responsibility to what they'veasked us to do contribute to the
knowledge that they'regathering from many different
grants like this one.
All of that to say BT.
It's a complicated thing butthere are things we can measure,
like our regional partners cankeep track of how many different
(20:44):
churches they've been connectedwith, how many leaders in those
churches, how many ministersthey've brought together and
helpful cohorts and so on.
BT Irwin (20:53):
I'll ask a real, specific question you in the
material I read about the grantour own report of the Christian
Chronicle that we wrote aboutyour receiving the grant it
seemed like there was going tobe a particular focus on leaders
and ministers within thosecongregations.
Mike Cope (21:08):
Yes.
BT Irwin (21:09):
So would it then be that a lot of the activity from
you and your regional partnerswould be directed at building
and cultivating leaders andministers, and how might you be
doing that?
I?
Mike Cope (21:24):
fully expect that.
An example is that one of ourregional partners is York and
just a couple of days after youand I recording this, they have
their equip conference.
So far they've got ministersfrom 18 states and Canada coming
there.
You know they're sitting outthere with all of these rural
(21:47):
and small town churches aroundthem.
We're thankful that we've beenable to share this money with
them and, of course, they hadthe vision already.
When I flew up to meet withYork, I was bowled over by the
people who were there and thevision God's put on their heart.
So this just provides moreresources for the kind of dreams
they already had.
(22:08):
But yeah, that would be anexample of a gathering of
leaders from 18 churches andfrom churches in Canada, but
there'll be others that I thinkwhat they'll do is just find six
to 10 churches a year anddevelop a cohort and that will
probably be especially of theministers and other leaders,
both formal and informal leaders, but to try to find ways to
(22:31):
dream together, pray togetherfor kingdom purposes.
BT Irwin (22:36):
So if there are any congregational leaders listening
to this right now and they wantto get in on this good stuff,
what do they do?
How do they get in touch?
Mike Cope (22:45):
I would say watch for the announcements that are
being released from thesevarious partners.
The money, as Lily's designed,it, doesn't go directly to
congregations, it's going to goto this network and then through
them.
For example, let's supposeyou're in Arkansas and you find
(23:07):
out that Harding, as a part ofparticipating in this, may be
doing some cohorts.
Now I don't know, I haven'tseen their final proposal, but
let's suppose that through thefive years of the project they
want to develop some cohorts ofchurches around.
Then they might contact Hardingto see if they could
participate in that.
But again, we're still workingout all of the sub-grantings.
(23:30):
So I hate to announce all ofthe regional partners.
Again, I think it'll be most ofthe institutions I've had a
connection with.
And, of course, the ChristianChronicle, because we're part of
this too, and I know we'll bereporting on it as well,
absolutely, and that's importantto me both because for
something on the front end andfor something ongoing, ongoing
(23:52):
is they'll be telling thesecritical stories.
But it felt like a God story inthe beginning to me that, just
as I had heard from Lily andthey were opening the door for
me to write this program, theChronicle had an important
article that really struck anerve for me about rural and
small town churches.
So, yeah, the Chronicle's apartner all the way through.
BT Irwin (24:12):
I'm happy to be one.
Mike Cope is Director ofMinistry Outreach for Pepperdine
University in Malibu,california.
He's riding point on the newLilly Endowment funded Empower
and Equip initiative for Churchof Christ congregations in rural
areas and small towns.
Among Church of Christpreachers, he's pulled ahead of
Gerard Davis, david Shannon andRubel Shelley for the most
(24:34):
appearances on the ChristianChronicle podcast.
Mike, thank you for coming backagain.
Mike Cope (24:38):
It was great to be with you, BT.
Thank you so much.
BT Irwin (24:41):
Listener.
You'll find links in the shownotes for all of the Christian
Chronicle coverage we referencedin this episode.
You'll also find links toresources that Mike shared.
Check those out now.
We hope that something you heardin this episode encouraged,
enlightened or enriched you insome way.
If it did, thanks be to God andplease pay it forward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
(25:03):
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And don't forget our ministry toinform and inspire Christians
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(25:24):
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(25:44):
of Christ congregations,members and ministries around
the world since 1943.
The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Audrey
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The Christian Chronicle podcastis written, directed, hosted
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(26:06):
Podcast your Voice Studios inthe Motor City, detroit,
michigan, usa.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
Thank you, you and honor God.
I'm so thankful that God calledme to the ministry of preaching
and teaching in Church ofChrist congregations that either
cannot afford a full-timeminister or cannot find one for
whatever reason.
This ministry has taken me tocongregations in many rural
areas and small towns in thepart of the country where I live
.
Few things fill me with morejoy than being a guest in these
(00:44):
congregations.
Even if I'm visiting one forthe first time, it still feels
like coming home.
That is the magic of smallChurch of Christ congregations
in the American heartland.
But along with the magic,something else hangs in the air
fear and sadness.
In every small towncongregation in which I preached
or taught over the last 25years, I heard stories of
(01:06):
decline, loss and teetering onthe edge of congregational death
.
Indeed, some of thecongregations that I visited
over the years no longer exist.
The ones that keep going do sogrieving the loss of what once
was and worrying about a futurethat seems to be getting shorter
by the year.
For years now, the ChristianChronicle has covered the trend
(01:28):
of congregations shrinking untilthey disappear.
Almost every article and columnwe publish on the subject
implies or asks the questionsoutright Do Church of Christ
congregations in rural areas andsmall towns have a future.
Will that future look like thepast?
And if not, how might it lookdifferent?
And how might congregationsembrace a different-looking
(01:50):
future and yet remain faithfuland obedient to the Lord, Jesus
Christ, who is the sameyesterday, today and forever?
The good news is that thosecongregations now have another
partner and resource to comealongside them.
Earlier this year, the LillyEndowment granted Pepperdine
University $7.5 million to fundits new Empower and Equip
(02:12):
initiative, which is on amission to strengthen the
leadership and ministries ofChurch of Christ congregations
in rural areas and small townsin the United States.
Here to tell us more is our oldfriend, Mike Cope, Director of
Ministry Outreach at PepperdineUniversity.
Mike, welcome to the exclusivecircle of the Three Times, a
Guest Club.
Mike Cope (02:30):
Thank you so much.
Bt Feels like a Saturday NightLive cast of people who've been
on multiple times.
BT Irwin (02:36):
Yeah, you're going to get a jacket one of these days.
So we're talking about thedecline in membership in numbers
of Church of Christcongregations in rural areas and
small towns.
It's a long running story inthe Christian Chronicle and a
trend that goes back for decadesnow.
How is seven and a half milliondollars going to turn that
around?
Mike Cope (02:56):
Well, money fixes everything, doesn't it?
No, of course it won't.
No, of course it won't.
(03:27):
But the Lilly Endowment lookedout and kept getting feedback
that predominantly focuses onsuburban urban churches.
In the had chances, as I waswriting the grant, to go listen
to leaders from Churches ofChrist who are in rural and
small town churches.
I attended Polishing the Pulpitfor the first time in eastern
Tennessee, tried to reconnectwith several people in my
heritage and I've learned a lot,but I'm looking forward to
learning a lot more as we goforward.
(03:48):
So the money will be helpful.
The Lilly Endowment has beengenerous but of course it is
just there to parlay and whatwe're calling the program
empower and equip, to try tohelp people.
BT Irwin (04:01):
Well, I'm going to ask you more questions about that
in a second, but I've done a lotof grant applications in my
time and I know whenever you doa grant application you've got
to come with some data and someprimary research.
So you mentioned you were outin the field exploring yourself.
I'm sure you have a lot ofother colleagues that were doing
the same.
What are some things youlearned about congregations and
(04:23):
rural areas and small towns?
And maybe another way to askthat question is what are some
assumptions most folks may getwrong about those congregations?
What are some stereotypes wemay need to drop right here and
now?
Mike Cope (04:37):
Well, the people that are writing a lot about rural
and small town churches andthere is quite a body of
literature out there, rural andsmall town churches, and there
is quite a body of literatureout there are saying that very
often, when we think ofespecially rural congregations,
we tend to vacillate betweensort of a Mayberry view of the
(04:57):
bucolic, idyllic ruralenvironment that's typically the
ones by those who don't livethere A Wendell Berry view you
know, every conference has tobegin with a Wendell Berry poem
to alternate between that and asense that rural communities
have fallen apart, as ifunemployment's, you know,
(05:18):
irreversible and many of themare nothing but meth labs.
So on either side you have thisoverly positive and overly
negative.
But in the middle what they'reall insisting is that these are
still like suburban and urbanareas.
This is where God resides,these are God's people.
(05:40):
The places are where thepresence of God is.
I think there's a stereotypethat they're all in decline, but
that's not true.
Now we know the numbers inchurches of Christ that are
across the board will applythere, but a lot of that's
(06:02):
because of where the flow ofemployment has been, that many
people have left ruralcommunities For many of these
churches.
If you lose one family withthree kids, you know it can't
help but significantly impactyour attendance.
But there's a lot happening inthese places.
Rural is sometimes marked bynumbers, but these writers are
(06:26):
insisting that you should thinkof rural and small town as
places marked by knowing andbeing known.
They're marked by narrativesthat have thickness to them.
In suburban and urban areas wetend to measure church by how
many babies are in the nurseryand how many young families
there are, and it may look verydifferent when you get out into
(06:48):
rural communities.
They may run older but theremay be wisdom and long tenures
of connecting with communitiesin redemptive ways.
BT Irwin (06:59):
I think one of the interesting things about this
undertaking that you have thereat Pepperdine is I've grown up
in the Church of Christ my wholelife.
We're a very evangelisticpeople and I grew up in a small
town.
Our church had about 300members and we were all about
evangelism.
So we're talking door knocking,we're talking tracts.
(07:21):
We did One Nation Under God, ifyou remember that, back in the
80s and 90s, right, and then wesent a lot of missionaries and
one of the things that reallygot us going is when a
missionary would come in andtalk about going to a major
population center, a big city ora suburb, either in the United
States or another part of theworld, because it's just math,
right, if you're trying to savesouls, send your missionary or
(07:43):
your evangelist to where thereare a lot, a lot of people.
And so this, this project withcongregations in small towns and
sparsely populated areas, iskind of a change or it departs
from what I've known growing upin the Church of Christ, where
we we really focus on the bignumbers.
Mike Cope (08:03):
People who have a larger historical perspective,
like Leonard Allen.
Leonard just insisted.
We were bred and born in ruraland small-town communities.
That that's rich in our blood.
We tend to be most aware oflarger congregations and they,
of course, are going to be inthe areas with larger
populations, but much of thework that's been done in and
(08:27):
through and sometimes despitewho we are, has been out in
these rural and small towncommunities.
So for us it's not a both, andI now lead four Lilly-sponsored
initiatives for Pepperdine, anda lot of the work is in suburban
urban areas, but this one inparticular is to go back out
into these churches that oftenare the anchor institutions in
(08:51):
their communities.
As there are problems acrossthe board in rural and small
town areas, these churches havebecome even more vital.
Vital, and one thing I loveabout them is they carry still
many of them carry still the DNAof evangelism that has always
marked churches of Christ thatour work is connected to the
(09:14):
saving work of Jesus Christ forthe redemption of the whole
world, and we don't want to moveaway from that.
BT Irwin (09:21):
Amen, amen.
I preach and teach in a lot ofsmall churches.
It's a ministry I feel like Godhas called me to and I've
enjoyed it.
Um and uh over the years.
Something I say almost everytime I visit a new church at the
beginning of a sermon is um,you know, the Lord has given you
everything you need.
Right, don't think that theLord is only Lord has given you
(09:43):
everything you need.
And one of the superpowers thatI think small congregations have
that would make largecongregations jealous is how
people take care of each other.
So you know, the announcementsat my church with two, three
hundred members are on aPowerPoint slide that rotates
the beginning of service, but Isit in the back pew after I
preach at these small churchesand the announcements.
(10:03):
Announcements are more likefamily conversations where
people talk about where isso-and-so today and here's a
need and I can take care of thatand it's a superpower I think
small churches have.
So talk a little more.
You said being in a small townis about knowing and being known
little more about how smallcongregations or congregations
(10:26):
in these small communities areuniquely gifted by the Holy
Spirit in a way that might makelarger congregations a little
envious of their superpowers.
Mike Cope (10:33):
And, by the way, part of this literature that I
referred to is about that, thevery advantage of smaller
churches, or at least churchesin these rural and small town
communities.
And like you, I have thesewonderful memories, even though
I preached for mostly largerchurches.
(10:53):
I was bred and born inSouthwest Missouri and my first
gospel meetings I held were inplaces like Seneca, missouri,
and Mount Vernon, missouri,Nevada, missouri and so on.
So I still have a tender placefor that.
But it's not just eulogizing,it's not just a Wendell Berry
(11:15):
poem and, by the way, I loveWendell Berry but it's the
reality of, I know, in a largerchurch, when they're what it's
like to be the minister into thelast minute somebody comes up
and says, hey, can you announcethis?
And you try to figure out whatdo we and what don't we announce
.
But in smaller churches thereis this sense of family and that
(11:36):
it would be inappropriate notto mention it.
You get a sense of the power ofthese house churches.
Paul's dominoing around theMediterranean, trying to launch
these beachheads of the kingdom,and you can feel in his letters
that, the power of those.
One great memory I have mysenior year at Harding.
Stan Granberg and I wereco-ministers at the All Red
(11:59):
Church of Christ, which I thinkit was about an hour and a half,
two hour drive from Harding,but one of us would preach in
the morning, the other wouldlead singing, we'd reverse it at
night.
But it's again, it's more thanjust nostalgia, it's remembering
the power of the witness ofthat church in their community.
(12:20):
So I'm still struck by that.
I'm struck by what I've learnedabout these communities as I've
traveled around, talked topeople.
Somebody said these arecommunities where if a dollar
store moves in, it changes yourlife for the better.
In a suburban we complain aboutall of the family dollar stores
(12:41):
and so on, but they're sayingboy, one moves in, it can change
your life for the better.
And somebody else said well,what marks us is I know a guy.
If you're in a large urbanchurch, something goes wrong.
You call the experts.
But in many of these churches Iknow a guy, I know somebody,
because it's largely aboutknowing and being known.
I have been trying to dig downinto this.
(13:02):
I've read that part of whycrime is lower in rural and
small town communities is crimedepends on anonymity.
It's a little tough to get awaywith something when everybody
knows who it was you know, whenyou pretty much know the people
in your neighborhood.
So that's something to draw on,since the gospel is all about
(13:23):
relationships, loving God,loving your neighbor.
I think there is a centeredplace for this redemptive
witness.
BT Irwin (13:34):
So in my opening to the episode I said a lot of
small town congregations that Iencounter have been fearful of
the future in recent years.
But if our call is from theLord and the Lord empowers and
equips us, the future is alwaysbright, no matter what we see
happening in the present.
So where do you see the biggestopportunities for small town
(13:55):
congregations to enter once moreinto the growth and life of God
?
How might they build for thekingdom of God now and in the
future?
Mike Cope (14:07):
Yeah, I think what I'm learning as I listen to
fellow leaders of churches isthat, rather than panic, there
needs to be a time ofdiscernment, a time of pulling
away.
I always love Dallas Willard'squote.
He said if you don't come apartfor a while, you will come apart
(14:28):
after a while.
And he points out even theMessiah didn't have a messianic
complex.
The Messiah pulled away and hespent time discerning, he spent
time in prayer, he spent timewith a few, but then to be able
to develop again a cleartheological identity and out of
justice for evangelism and toknow a community means that we
(15:07):
are combining both narrative anddata.
So we want to know where welive and who the people are
around us, and then we want topractice good stewardship.
We bring things to thecommunity, and that matches up
with what Lily has asked of thisprogram.
They've asked for three things.
They've asked that we go abouthelping to develop and encourage
(15:30):
leadership, that we try toassist in missional imagination
so that churches aren't justdiscouraged because maybe they
aren't as big as they were inthe past, and that we help them
understand what anchors in thecommunity they are and what it
means to have collaboration withcommunity ministries, all in
(15:53):
the context, again, of believingthat everything's related to
the saving worth of Jesus.
BT Irwin (15:59):
Yes, yes.
So let's get down to the nittygritty.
You've got seven and a halfmillion dollars from Lilly
Endowment and you started whatyou call the Empower and Equip
initiative for Church of Christcongregations in rural areas and
small towns.
How will this initiativeactually work?
Who will be doing the work andwhat will they be doing?
Mike Cope (16:19):
will this initiative actually work?
Who will be doing the work andwhat will they be doing?
Well, the program that we havewritten by the way, john Barton
is my assistant director in this.
I think most of your audienceknows John, but the program we
wrote has a national focus and aregional focus.
So on the national level, we'reworking with several partners
to try to do what we can broadlyfor Churches of Christ.
(16:42):
Through the Seibert Instituteat Abilene Christian University,
we hope to have a podcastfocused on rural and small town
churches.
We're trying to develop alibrary that will be useful for
churches, especially since manyare finding it hard to find
somebody to preach If they'refinding resources like that
difficult.
We want to make it free andeasily available.
(17:05):
The Christian Chronicle is oneof our partners in this.
They're going to have a specialfocus on, as they have in the
past on, small town and ruralchurches.
They'll continue doing that andrural churches They'll continue
doing that.
Mission Alive, kairos, ourchurch planting, national
partners.
And then another of ourpartners is Stan Granberg's
(17:27):
Church Research Council, becausethis work he's doing to try to
give us a new census, a newdirectory for churches of Christ
, is so important.
We haven't had one in a longtime.
So that'll overlap witheverything else we're doing by
knowing where these churches are, who to contact.
And then, on a regional level,we're partnering with several
(17:50):
other of our Christianinstitutions, I guess especially
the ones that I've hadconnection with in my life,
especially the ones that I'vehad connection with in my life.
They're going to be developingtheir own programs.
So it'll be up to Rochester,it'll be up to York, it'll be up
to Lubbock Christian and so onto develop a program that can
(18:10):
reach their area and we'retrusting them as full partners.
I just got off a Zoom with mostof these partners.
It's very excited.
I'm just trusting that God isgoing to use us together and
then we'll get together, eitheron Zoom or maybe once a year
together in person to share whatwe're learning.
And again, the wisdom goes awayall the way down.
(18:34):
In this I'm like the one who'sgot the greatest learning curve
and I've got these partners whoare learning all they can.
But the real richness andwisdom of this is embedded in
the actual members and leadersof these rural and small-town
churches.
We just want to provide someresources and bring them
together in ways that they canbe helpful to each other.
(18:55):
It's not like Pepperdine isgoing to spend the full $7.5
million we're re-granting tothese institutions so that they
have the resources toparticipate.
BT Irwin (19:06):
Well, you know, foundations always want reports
when they give out money.
What measures of success didyou choose for this initiative
and how will you know what youare doing is working?
Mike Cope (19:17):
That's the tough one, isn't it?
We love metrics.
What you are doing is workingUh, that's the tough one, isn't
it?
We love metrics.
And metrics are important.
Uh, we all know that in aproject like this, bodies,
budgets and buildings is goingto tell a piece of the story,
but not all of it.
What we're really thinkingabout is faithfulness and
fruitfulness.
Um, faithfulness, especiallyabout who you are, and
fruitfulness about what you aredoing.
(19:39):
Of course, they're two sides ofthe same coins so it's hard to
separate them.
But, as I said, it's going tobe difficult in these because
one family leaves and it's likea trampoline you know where one
family comes in.
So it will be notoriouslydifficult to have some of the
traditional metrics.
But, having said that, we aregoing to work with these
(20:00):
churches and ask about ways thatwe can evaluate the development
of leaders and the developmentof missional imagination and the
development of anchorrelationships and communities,
relationships and communities.
(20:21):
Lilly has some specific thingsin mind, but we're going to work
with our partners to try tomake sure that we have fiduciary
responsibility to what they'veasked us to do contribute to the
knowledge that they'regathering from many different
grants like this one.
All of that to say BT.
It's a complicated thing butthere are things we can measure,
like our regional partners cankeep track of how many different
(20:44):
churches they've been connectedwith, how many leaders in those
churches, how many ministersthey've brought together and
helpful cohorts and so on.
BT Irwin (20:53):
I'll ask a real, specific question you in the
material I read about the grantour own report of the Christian
Chronicle that we wrote aboutyour receiving the grant it
seemed like there was going tobe a particular focus on leaders
and ministers within thosecongregations.
Mike Cope (21:08):
Yes.
BT Irwin (21:09):
So would it then be that a lot of the activity from
you and your regional partnerswould be directed at building
and cultivating leaders andministers, and how might you be
doing that?
I?
Mike Cope (21:24):
fully expect that.
An example is that one of ourregional partners is York and
just a couple of days after youand I recording this, they have
their equip conference.
So far they've got ministersfrom 18 states and Canada coming
there.
You know they're sitting outthere with all of these rural
(21:47):
and small town churches aroundthem.
We're thankful that we've beenable to share this money with
them and, of course, they hadthe vision already.
When I flew up to meet withYork, I was bowled over by the
people who were there and thevision God's put on their heart.
So this just provides moreresources for the kind of dreams
they already had.
(22:08):
But yeah, that would be anexample of a gathering of
leaders from 18 churches andfrom churches in Canada, but
there'll be others that I thinkwhat they'll do is just find six
to 10 churches a year anddevelop a cohort and that will
probably be especially of theministers and other leaders,
both formal and informal leaders, but to try to find ways to
(22:31):
dream together, pray togetherfor kingdom purposes.
BT Irwin (22:36):
So if there are any congregational leaders listening
to this right now and they wantto get in on this good stuff,
what do they do?
How do they get in touch?
Mike Cope (22:45):
I would say watch for the announcements that are
being released from thesevarious partners.
The money, as Lily's designed,it, doesn't go directly to
congregations, it's going to goto this network and then through
them.
For example, let's supposeyou're in Arkansas and you find
(23:07):
out that Harding, as a part ofparticipating in this, may be
doing some cohorts.
Now I don't know, I haven'tseen their final proposal, but
let's suppose that through thefive years of the project they
want to develop some cohorts ofchurches around.
Then they might contact Hardingto see if they could
participate in that.
But again, we're still workingout all of the sub-grantings.
(23:30):
So I hate to announce all ofthe regional partners.
Again, I think it'll be most ofthe institutions I've had a
connection with.
And, of course, the ChristianChronicle, because we're part of
this too, and I know we'll bereporting on it as well,
absolutely, and that's importantto me both because for
something on the front end andfor something ongoing, ongoing
(23:52):
is they'll be telling thesecritical stories.
But it felt like a God story inthe beginning to me that, just
as I had heard from Lily andthey were opening the door for
me to write this program, theChronicle had an important
article that really struck anerve for me about rural and
small town churches.
So, yeah, the Chronicle's apartner all the way through.
BT Irwin (24:12):
I'm happy to be one.
Mike Cope is Director ofMinistry Outreach for Pepperdine
University in Malibu,california.
He's riding point on the newLilly Endowment funded Empower
and Equip initiative for Churchof Christ congregations in rural
areas and small towns.
Among Church of Christpreachers, he's pulled ahead of
Gerard Davis, david Shannon andRubel Shelley for the most
(24:34):
appearances on the ChristianChronicle podcast.
Mike, thank you for coming backagain.
Mike Cope (24:38):
It was great to be with you, BT.
Thank you so much.
BT Irwin (24:41):
Listener.
You'll find links in the shownotes for all of the Christian
Chronicle coverage we referencedin this episode.
You'll also find links toresources that Mike shared.
Check those out now.
We hope that something you heardin this episode encouraged,
enlightened or enriched you insome way.
If it did, thanks be to God andplease pay it forward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
(25:03):
Recommend and review itwherever you listen to your
favorite podcasts.
Your subscription,recommendation and review help
us reach more people.
Please send your comments,ideas and suggestions to podcast
at christianchronicleorg.
And don't forget our ministry toinform and inspire Christians
and congregations around theworld is a nonprofit ministry
(25:24):
that relies on your generosity.
So if you like the show and youwant to keep it going and make
it even better, please make atax-deductible gift to the
Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis a production of the
Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg.
Slash donate.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis a production of the
Christian Chronicle Incorporated, informing and inspiring Church
(25:44):
of Christ congregations,members and ministries around
the world since 1943.
The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Audrey
Jackson, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and executive director
and CEO Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis written, directed, hosted
and edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan at
(26:06):
Podcast your Voice Studios inthe Motor City, detroit,
michigan, usa.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
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