April 10, 2025 • 44 mins
It is a fact that more people in the world live in cities than in rural areas. That means the Church of Christ, if it is to be faithful and obedient to Jesus the Christ, must get used to city life and loving its neighbors in the city.
But what we imagine to be "urban ministry" in the Church of Christ is outdated and perhaps was never quite right-headed in the first place. These days, affluent professionals are moving to the "inner city" in droves while the things that we once assumed characterize the inner city are becoming more common in exurbs and suburbs.
So, in a sense, "urban ministry" may now be just...ministry.
In this episode, Dr. Steve Cloer, associate professor of ministry at the Harding School of Theology and director of the Center for Church and City Engagement in Memphis, Tennessee, talks about how our assumptions about "urban ministry" reveal a lot about ourselves and what we imagine about God and the world God so loves. He also riffs on how the Church of Christ might follow God into a future of (city) ministry that may look nothing like what was normal in the mid- to late-20th century.
Link to Dr. Steve Cloer's Christian Chronicle column on the "changing face of urban ministry"
Link to the Center for Church and City Engagement
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
BT Irwin (00:04):
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
We're bringing you the storiesshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
I'm BT Irwin.
It is an honor and pleasure tobe your host.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
Listeners to this show know Ilive just outside Detroit,
(00:27):
michigan, usa.
It's always interesting, whenwe visit some other part of the
country, to listen to whatpeople think of Detroit who
haven't been here or haven'tbeen here in a long time.
Detroit is a case study in howcities in the United States are
changing these days.
Like many US cities in the midto late 20th century, detroit's
inner city fell on hard times asupwardly mobile and well-off
(00:52):
white residents left for thesuburbs.
This enormous disinvestment ofpolitical power and wealth left
cities like Detroit hollowed out, as things like jobs, services
and tax revenue migrated away.
Those with the fewest economicand political means could not
afford to follow.
In many cases those were peopleof color who were not even
(01:14):
close to recovering from decadesof legal barriers to education,
home ownership and jobs.
Despair metastasized in aninner-city economic depression
and jobs Despair metastasized inan inner-city economic
depression.
Churches moved.
Too Many suburban congregationsstarted in the city and moved
out.
When their members moved, thosecongregations became sources of
money and volunteers that theysent back into the city in
(01:37):
support of what they calledurban ministries that sprung up
to serve those struggling withlife there.
For years my own suburbancongregation has supported
ministries to the homeless ininner city Detroit, but things
have changed in Detroit and manyother cities over the last 20
to 30 years.
Not long ago I had lunch withthe pastor of a Presbyterian
church in inner city Detroit.
(01:58):
He told the story of how, fromthe 1960s until recent years,
that congregation's ministriesgrew in response to the drug
abuse, homelessness, joblessness, mental illness and poverty
that characterized itsneighborhood.
In the last few years, however,things in the neighborhood
changed.
Today the church is surroundedby new hotels, offices,
(02:20):
restaurants and upscaleresidences.
The people the church onceserved through its ministries
are gone from the neighborhood.
The neighbors who live aroundthe church now are wealthy,
white and young.
So are that church's ministriesto these newcomers still urban
ministries as we have thoughtabout them for generations?
That phenomenon of changinginner cities and how they affect
(02:42):
what we call urban ministry isthe subject of a recent guest
column that we published in theChristian Chronicle.
The author of that column is DrSteve Cloer, associate
Professor of Ministry at HardingSchool of Theology in Searcy,
arkansas, and Director of theCenter for Church and City
Engagement in Memphis, tennessee.
The title of his column is theChanging Face of Urban Ministry.
(03:04):
You can read it at the link weput in the show notes, but Dr
Cloer is here to talk about itnow.
Dr Cloer, why is urban ministrya conversation worth having now
?
Dr. Steve Cloer (03:13):
Well, I mean, first and foremost, the world is
predominantly urban, and so weneed to have this conversation,
because that's where our worldis Somewhere around the mid
2000s, 2007, 2008, that theworld population became more
urban than rural.
I think it's around 55% rightnow the world's population is
(03:39):
urban, and that number is justgoing to go up.
There's still, I think, onecontinent Africa is still
predominantly rural, but it'squickly becoming more urban, so
that number is going to go up.
There's still, I think, onecontinent Africa is still
predominantly rural, but it'squickly becoming more urban, so
that number is going to go up.
Latin America is around 80percent urban.
United States predominantlyurban.
So that's the context that we'rein is people moving to cities,
living in cities, and so I thinkwe need to talk about then what
(04:03):
does it look like to doministry in urban areas?
Because that's going to be alittle bit different than maybe
a rural or even a suburban areaof some sorts.
Churches of Christ have more ofa rural background, and so
that's kind of how our movementgrew up, and so I think shifting
(04:25):
into an urban context is alittle bit challenging for our
churches in some cases, and so,because of that, I think we need
to talk about this.
I think we need to have anemphasis.
You know, I work at HardingSchool of Theology.
Most of the students fromHarding, or the people that are
in the school of theology theygraduate.
They're going to be working ina city, they're going to be
(04:47):
moving to Nashville, little Rockor Dallas, fort Worth or
someplace like that, and so wehave to be thinking about what
does ministry look like in anurban area?
BT Irwin (04:56):
because of that, Our editors gave your Christian
Chronicle guest column theheadline the Changing Face of
Urban Ministry.
Tell us about that.
What are the trends that areshaping what we in the Church of
Christ have been calling urbanministry for the last few
generations?
Dr. Steve Cloer (05:15):
That's a good question.
In some ways, urban ministryhas been around ever since
there's been the gospel in thecity, and so you can make an
argument that the apostle Paulwas doing urban ministry as he
went through missionary journeysand traveled to big cities like
Athens and Corinth and Ephesusand Antioch, and I mean these
(05:39):
were big, ancient cities andthey were doing ministry in
those cities, and so in someways urban ministry has always
been around.
And in our restoration movement,david Lipscomb was involved in
Nashville and doing ministrythere.
You have the example of EH Imesand the Central Church of
(06:01):
Christ, an attempt to plant achurch in the downtown area of
Nashville that served the poorand those struggling and that
had a tremendous impact at thatpoint.
But in my lifetime, when Ithink about urban ministry, I
think about an emphasis thatstarted in the 1990s, I would
(06:22):
say, when a lot of predominantlywhite churches of Christ
realized that the downtown areasof our cities had become
forsaken, neglected in somesenses, and that there was a lot
of poverty.
And so there was an attempt toview the downtown areas, the
(06:42):
inner cities, from amissiological lens.
And so let's plant churches inthe inner cities, let's start
ministries in the inner cities,and so we had all these
different inner city ministriesthat started popping up in many
different cities around theUnited States.
There was a big effort inMemphis.
(07:02):
It was called the Memphis UrbanMinistry at the time, but it
was happening in other cities,in Little Rock, in Dallas, in
Fort Worth, in Denver, inPortland, in Chicago, in St
Louis and many other places, andit was around that time that
there was a conference that wasstarted to try to provide
networking to all of thesequote-unquote urban ministries.
(07:26):
It's called the National UrbanMinistry Conference.
My friend, harold Shank, tellsme that when this conference
begun, they counted around 90different ministries in
different cities in the UnitedStates, which is a lot, and so
that I think when we think abouturban ministry, particularly in
(07:47):
predominantly white churches,that's often what we think about
is this attempt to startministries in kind of the
downtown areas.
Now I should add to this thatpredominantly African-American
churches and predominantlyHispanic churches have been in
existence in the downtown urbancore of our cities for many
decades, and when a lot ofchurches moved out, they stayed.
(08:10):
So there's a lot of a lot ofchurches that are probably
African-American, who are who'veconsistently been engaging what
we might say quote unquoteurban ministry.
So that's something of thetrend, I think.
Now we're seeing a lot ofchange going on.
We call this gentrification incities to where we're having to
(08:32):
kind of rethink what we meanwhen we use the phrase urban
ministry.
BT Irwin (08:39):
As I read your column I thought about everything I
ever assumed or imagined abouturban ministry, and I awoke to
this realization about myselfwhen I hear the words urban
ministry.
And I think it's helpful for usto kind of define what that
means, because it could meandifferent things to different
people.
For me, I picture people ofcolor who are often poor, and
(09:01):
when I think of them I don'teven think about their location
per se.
In other words, my mindassociates urban ministry more
with poor people of color thanwith the quote-unquote inner
city.
So I wonder, for Christians wholive and look like me and I'm a
white guy who lives in thesuburbs to what extent does the
term urban ministry actuallymean urban as in a specific
(09:24):
context or place, or does itactually serve as a euphemism
for certain groups of peoplelike people of color?
Dr. Steve Cloer (09:32):
Yeah, that's a good tough question and I
understand what you're saying.
I think that word urban canmean different things to
different people, differentthings to different people, and
that's one of the reasons why atHarding, when we started this
Center for Church and CityEngagement, we wrestled with,
okay, what do we call thiscenter?
(09:52):
And we thought about Center forUrban Engagement or Urban
Ministry, and we decided to notuse the word urban.
Instead we used the word city,because we felt like that was
more inclusive.
The word urban Instead we usedthe word city, because we felt
like that was more inclusive,more comprehensive, and we felt
like it also communicated moreof what we were trying to do.
(10:15):
I think some churches, when theyhear the word urban ministry,
they think, oh, that's notsomething that we do, that's
something that some otherministry does or some other
church does, and we don't reallydo that, whereas I think if
we're a church in a city, you'reengaged in ministry to the city
.
So, yeah, I think that thatword can be problematic.
Like you said, it can typicallycause us to think about
ministering to people who are inpoverty or ministering into
(10:38):
distressed neighborhoods.
I prefer thinking about theword city, which, the way I
would define city is three wordsdensity, diversity in place,
density, diversity in place.
So you're in one place that'swhere there's a lot, of, a lot
of people who are a lot ofdifferent kinds of people, that
(11:00):
we would call that a city.
We would call that a city, andif I am, if we're a church in
that city and we're going to tryto minister to the city,
minister to our neighborhood inour city, well, probably you're
going to be dealing with poverty.
Probably you're going to bedealing with diversity.
Probably you're going to bedealing with immigration and
(11:21):
refugees.
Probably you're going to bedealing with different languages
being spoken.
Probably you're going to bedealing with different languages
being spoken.
Probably you're going to bedealing with loneliness and
isolation, all the differentthings that are prevalent within
quote unquote urban areas.
You're probably going to bedealing with that if you are a
church in a city.
And so let's think about whatdoes it mean to engage in city
(11:43):
ministry and to be a church forthe city?
I think that's maybe a morehelpful, more inclusive, more
comprehensive approach tothinking about this than what
we've thought about urbanministry in the past.
Now, certainly, there are goingto be some churches that are in
more of a distressedneighborhood and so they're
(12:04):
going to be a lot more focusedon addiction recovery or they're
going to be a lot more focusedon benevolent ministry and
things of that nature, andthere's going to be some
churches that are in a morewealthier location and so their
ministries are going to look alittle bit different.
But the way the city ischanging and the city of Memphis
is a good example the threemost distressed neighborhoods in
(12:27):
the city of Memphis at leastwhat I would say three most
distressed neighborhoods areoutside the I-240 loop, so used
to is okay.
Inside the loop is where theurban core is, where the
struggles are.
Now it's outside the I-240 loopand I think that's what we're
seeing in a lot of cities isit's very desirable to live in
(12:49):
the downtown area.
It may be a pocket in a firstring suburb or someplace like
that.
That is where there's a lot ofdistressed and under-resourced
areas.
So that's why I think justchurches in the city need to
think about how do we ministerto the city.
BT Irwin (13:06):
So, when you were working through what to call the
Center for Church and CityEngagement and you were
struggling with languagelanguage is important because it
means something right and youwere intentional about not using
the word urban but using theword city.
My question is urban ministry.
(13:27):
It's a term that we've used inthe Church of Christ for
generations and it meansdifferent things to different
people, but I wonder, is itstill a useful term for us to
use now?
Do we need new language thatreflects a new imagination and
understanding of what ishappening or needs to happen?
Dr. Steve Cloer (13:46):
That's a good question too.
To be honest, I don't reallyknow.
I think the term can still behelpful.
You know, barna did someresearch.
I have the book here with mecalled Inside the Urban Church
and I've looked at that research.
The way they define urban isthey use the way the United
(14:09):
States Census uses the wordurban, which is they define an
area that has 425 housing unitsper square mile.
So that's an urban area.
So they're they're focusing onpopulation there, um, just high
dense areas, and I I think thatmight be one way to think about
(14:29):
it we're engaging in urbanministry if we're in a high
dense populated area, because ifI'm in a high dense populated
area, I'm going to be dealingwith poverty, I'm going to be
dealing with, uh, diversity, I'mgoing to be dealing with all
these things.
That quote unquote in the pasthas defined urban ministry.
But I don't know.
(14:51):
That's a good question.
When I was the preacher at theSouthside Church of Christ in
just south of downtown fortworth, I really tried to promote
the idea that we're a citychurch, we're here, we're a
church for the city, and and Ithought that was a more
comprehensive, positive way toto view the vision of our, of
our church.
(15:12):
I think more churches need tothink that way, that we're a
church for the city, um, butyeah, in the past, urban
ministry has meant oftenministry to people in poverty,
ministry to people inunder-resourced areas, and maybe
that phrase can still be a clueto that.
We're engaging in urbanministry, but I want to expand
(15:34):
it, I want to think bigger,because, as I um, as was
mentioned in my article, you canbe a church in a first ring
suburb and right next door Nowyou've got uh, housing,
subsidized housing, affordablehousing.
You can be the impact Houstonchurch of Christ, which has has
a tremendous track record ofministry to people in poverty,
(15:56):
and you go to the Impact HoustonChurch.
Today, right next door arereally nice townhomes that young
adults and middle to upperclass are living in.
So we're all dealing with thisshifting, changing landscape.
So I think maybe a better wayto think about it is we're
ministering to the city.
BT Irwin (16:18):
I want to jam on that for a second, because something
you said a moment ago got methinking.
You said Barna defines an urbanarea the same way the US Census
Bureau does.
Which is what did you say?
425?
Dr. Steve Cloer (16:32):
425 housing units per square mile.
BT Irwin (16:35):
Per square mile.
So when you think about it thatway, like the congregation
where I'm a member, in anaffluent suburb of of Detroit,
there are definitely 425 housingunits probably more within the
square mile of our, our churchbuilding.
It's also a very diverse area.
I think there are over ahundred languages spoken in the
(16:57):
local school district.
So density, diversity and place.
And yet if I were to go downthe pews at my congregation and
ask people about our urbanministry work, they would
specifically talk about our workwith homeless people in Pontiac
(17:18):
, michigan, which is about 15minutes away, and it is a
majority, the majority of thepeople who live in Pontiac are
people of color.
There's a lot of poverty thereand the interesting thing about
that is, by Barna's definitionand the Census Bureau's
definition of what you're sayingright here, our congregation is
involved in urban ministryright there in its own
(17:41):
neighborhood, but people don'tthink about it that way.
Dr. Steve Cloer (17:44):
Right, right, and this is what I think more
churches need to be thinkingabout, and so I mentioned in my
column a quote from Jim Harbin.
Jim Harbin is the president ofthe National Urban Ministry
Association, which puts on theUrban Ministry Conference.
Jim planted the RaleighCommunity Church of Christ that
(18:06):
came out of the Memphis UrbanMinistry emphasis back in the
90s 2000s, and he shared thatquote with me one time.
We were talking about this verydynamic, and he said you know,
steve, it really is all urbanministry very dynamic.
And he said you know, steve, itreally is all urban ministry.
And I think that there's sometruth to that, that, yes, you
can be in maybe a little morewealthier suburb, but it is an
(18:28):
urban area by density definitionand you're dealing with some of
the elements that come with anurban area, as you mentioned,
with different languages beingspoken, many different types of
people.
How do we navigate this?
How do we minister to thisneighborhood?
I would like more churches incities to start thinking about
(18:52):
how do we minister to ourneighborhood right where we are.
To me, that's the new face ofurban ministry.
And, yeah, sure, we're going topartner with other churches to
reach certain neighborhoodswhere maybe they need a few more
resources than where we are, ormaybe are challenged in certain
ways.
We're going to still do that.
(19:12):
There's still a place for that.
But we can't simply think, okay, in our church we're just going
to kind of take care of oneanother and and do kind of urban
mission work in anotherneighborhood.
We've got to think, no, we'reurban, we're doing urban mission
work right here where we are.
This is a mission point.
Yeah, so how do we reach ourneighborhood that is constantly
(19:35):
changing, because we're livingin a city that's constantly
changing constantly changing,because we're living in a city
that's constantly changing.
BT Irwin (19:46):
Yeah, that's where, as I reflected on myself, I
thought urban ministry in myimagination is actually a
euphemism for ministering tocertain kinds of people,
regardless of where they are,and yet our congregation is
doing urban ministry, bydefinition, just by what it does
in its own community.
I have, maybe a uniqueperspective on this.
For most of my career, I'vebeen responsible for managing
(20:07):
volunteers who come to work withministries in what we think of
as inner city or urban contextshere in.
Detroit, where I live.
Almost all of those volunteersover the years have been
well-off white Christians fromthe exurbs and suburbs
surrounding the city and this ismy observation Many, if not
(20:28):
most, of them came with anassumption that no ministry is
happening in the inner cityuntil they show up.
So part of my work has been toreveal to these Christians that
they are not coming to aministry dead zone.
In fact, god is present andworking.
God's people are present andworking, and you mentioned a
moment ago how manycongregations stayed in the
(20:52):
neighborhoods that werehollowing out during white
flight and they continue to workin those neighborhoods and they
continue to minister.
Um, so I've heard from theselocals, uh, that have been
partners of mine through theyears.
Uh, local congregations, localministries in the neighborhoods,
uh, they have skin in the gamein their communities.
They have all shared with meover the years this experience
(21:15):
of Christians coming from theoutside who look right through
them as if they're not there andthey look down on what the
actual residents of theneighborhood and the
congregations and ministriesthat are there.
They kind of look down on it asprimitive or maybe not worth
doing.
So from this experience of mine, I've grown to wonder what
(21:35):
assumptions and motivations arebehind so much of what well-off
Christians call urban ministry.
Dr. Steve Cloer (21:43):
That's a really good, complicated question.
What immediately comes to mymind is oftentimes in that
situation, we think we haveresources.
This neighborhood or this groupor this church doesn't have
resources, and so we're comingto bring our resources to you,
(22:07):
and so there might be a littlebit of a kind of a Messiah
complex or a Savior complex,that we have some things that
you don't have, and so we'recoming to bring those things to
you, um, and and and so that'skind of the the, the superiority
perspective that we have.
I think a healthier way to viewthat is to think about a
(22:30):
reciprocity approach that, yeah,there there might be something
that we can offer, but there'ssomething that that you have to
offer to us.
There's some things that wehave to learn, some things that
we need to know, some thingsthat we need to hear, some
things we need to experience andand so we're yeah, we're coming
(22:52):
and we're bringing ourvolunteer hours or we're
bringing some of the resourcesthat we have, but we're also
coming because we need to hearsome things and experience some
things and learn some things,and and so approach approaching
things for more of a reciprocityrelationship, I think is a much
healthier way of thinking aboutit.
Let me give you one example.
So this is a personal example.
(23:15):
So when I was living in FortWorth, texas example so when I
was living in Fort Worth, texas,preaching for the Southside
Church, my car broke down oneday and I thought you know what?
My car's in the shop.
It's going to be a couple ofdays before it's fixed.
I'm going to ride the publicbus system.
I'm going to ride the publicbus system to work.
(23:35):
I'm going to do this forseveral days.
I'm just going to see what thisis like I ride the public bus
system and I do that.
I get a different perspective.
I see things.
I learn a lot about waiting andabout being patient.
The bus doesn't always run ontime.
Then I have all these spiritualconversations.
(23:57):
I had people come up to measking me biblical questions,
spiritual questions, not becauseI was a minister, maybe just
because I was there.
I had more spiritualconversations on the bus than I
did in the church foyer, and andso I use an example that there
were things that I learned whenI was placed myself in a in a
(24:19):
place, place I'm not normally at.
I think that could be an elementhere that, okay, we're going to
go, we're going to partner withthis ministry or this church in
a different neighborhood thatwe're not normally in, that is,
a more under-resourced ordistressed neighborhood.
Oh yeah, there's something thatI can offer here, but there's a
lot that I can learn here andthere's some things that I can
experience it.
(24:39):
So I think that's a muchhealthier approach.
Is this reciprocity?
So moving from kind of asuperiority to a level playing
field, reciprocity?
So that'd be one thought andanother thought.
To be honest, I think sometimeswe feel if we're in like a
suburban wealthier situation, wecan feel a little guilt.
(25:03):
I have all this, this stuff andand I've been blessed in so much
, so many ways and and, andhere's a neighborhood over here
that doesn't have that, and sowe feel guilty and so we're
we're kind of going to to makemake ourselves feel a little bit
better and and maybe the way todeal with that is to think
(25:25):
about maybe maybe we're actuallyin trouble.
We have, we have this wealthand we have these, these, these
resources of stuff.
I mean Jesus said it's hard forthe, for the rich man, into the
kingdom.
So maybe we're in trouble.
Maybe we're actually going toserve in this neighborhood so
that we can quote, unquote, saveourselves, so that we can learn
(25:47):
more deeply what it means tofollow Jesus.
So maybe we're going, notnecessarily because we think we
can help this person, maybewe're going because we think
this person can actually help me, because it's hard to enter the
kingdom of God as a wealthyperson.
So I think thinking more likethat is a healthier, more
(26:07):
faithful approach to engagementministry.
BT Irwin (26:15):
One of the problems that the church in the United
States has is that we tend tolook at everything through the
same lens through which ourculture looks at things.
So we tend to look at thingsthrough an economic lens, and I
think that can amount tosometimes we believe that
because we're well off, thatmeans that we're doing things
(26:37):
right.
Right, god has blessed us,we're doing things right, and if
other people are not well offeconomically, they're not doing
things as right as we are.
Therefore, we have more to giveand more to teach and less to
learn.
So in community developmentwork Habitat for Humanity, for
example, where I worked foryears it's helping everyone
(26:59):
understand that God has endowedevery community with wealth of
different kinds.
So money is one measure ofwealth, but in the kingdom of
God we measure wealth in otherways, and so that levels the
playing field between anaffluent suburban church and a
church that's in the inner city.
Because we're not looking ateconomic wealth, we're looking
(27:21):
at the variety of blessings thatGod has given us that we need
to share with one another.
So certainly, economic wealthis something we have to share,
but we almost always seeourselves as having the upper
hand and wanting to keep theupper hand.
Yeah, and how do we?
This could be a question youanswer how do we, how do we
(27:43):
model and teach in the church ofChrist a different economy
right and a different way of ofmeasuring wealth and what we
have to give and what we have toreceive from one another,
especially since we rarely comeinto contact with each other
unless we're, you know, puttingeverybody on a bus to come down
and volunteer for a day.
Right.
Dr. Steve Cloer (28:02):
Yeah, that's a great question.
A couple of thoughts on that.
Number one, I think, findingfinding opportunities to, to be
the guest in, in anotherperson's space or another
neighborhood space or anotherchurch's space, ministry space,
and so we're used to being thehost.
(28:23):
We're used to, you know, as yousaid, putting people on buses
bringing them to our church andwe put on a VBS or whatever.
We're used to being the host.
Are there ways that we can be aguest?
Are the ways that we can be ata church or ministry where we
listen, where we observe, wherewe are served, where we're the
(28:48):
guest, where we acknowledge andplace ourself in a position of
vulnerability, where we're hereto listen to what you have to
say, because there's somethingthat you have to say that I
think I need to hear.
I think that's good and I thinkthat's really important.
I think it's really importantfor white people who are maybe
living in a, as you mentioned,in a suburb.
It's very important for us toput ourselves in places where
(29:11):
we're the minority and eithereconomically or racially, and
where we listen and we learn.
And my kids when we were inFort Worth they attended an
elementary school that wasprobably Hispanic schools, a
low-income Hispanic school atthe time and that was a good
experience for us.
It was a good experience to bea minority and to listen and to
(29:34):
notice and observe and to learn,and there were things that we
learned.
So I think that's one thing tonotice and observe and to learn,
and there were things that welearned.
So I think that's one thing.
I think a second piece, and inmy work at Harding and the
classes that I teach aroundmission, one of the questions I
encourage my students to ask iswhat is God doing in the
neighborhood or in the city?
What is God doing?
(29:55):
God is doing something here.
God's at work.
As you mentioned, it's not aministry dead zone.
God was already working in theheart of Cornelius.
God was already working in theheart of the Ethiopian eunuch
before Philip showed up orbefore Peter showed up at
Cornelius.
God was already working inLydia's heart before Paul got to
Philippi.
So God's doing something hereand he's working in people's
hearts.
God's doing something here andhe's working in people's hearts,
(30:18):
and so what is he?
doing, and so can we have eyesto be attentive, to listen, to
be obedient observers, as I liketo say.
I think that's an importantquestion that we constantly need
to be asking, and sure we wantto also ask the question what
does God want to do here?
And so how can we join God inhis redemptive work?
(30:38):
But we also want to be askingwhat is God already doing?
And so that question can be areally good way to debrief or to
approach entering into aneighborhood.
That keeps us from feeling like, okay, I'm kind of the one
that's the superiority here, I'mthe one who kind of knows
everything, has the advantage.
(30:59):
No, god's the one who knowswhat is needed, god's the one
who's active, it's God's mission, it's not mine.
And so what is he doing and howcan we join him in that?
BT Irwin (31:12):
Well, I'm not an anthropologist or sociologist,
but from my armchair I thinkthat we in the Church of Christ
are at an inflection point inour movement toward God, and I
feel like there's some tensionthat's been building among us
for many years and it plays outin our ministries.
And that tension, I think, isthis my generation grew up in
(31:33):
the 80s in a Church of Christthat seemed to understand
something like urban ministry asa means to an end.
So a congregation might supporturban ministries like feeding
people, rehabilitating people,sheltering people as means to
getting people into thebaptistry and the church of
(31:54):
Christ.
I think, from my generationforward, though, emerging
generations see ministries moreas the end in themselves.
So, in other words, we don'tclothe, feed and shelter people
so that we can baptize them intothe kingdom of God.
We clothe, feed and shelterpeople because that is the
kingdom of God.
We clothe, feed and shelterpeople because that is the
kingdom of God, as Jesusdemonstrates in his own life.
(32:17):
So the measure of ourministries is not how many
people we baptize into thechurch of Christ, it's how many
people grow together into asociety where the reign and rule
of Christ is evident.
Do you observe this tension too, and if so, how do you think it
will play out as urban ministry, or whatever it becomes called,
evolves over the nextgeneration or two?
Dr. Steve Cloer (32:41):
Well, yes, I observed this tension and I
notice it and I appreciate theway you described that.
And just in my own life, I'venoticed how, when I was much
younger, when we would talkabout going on a mission trip,
it was hey, we're going to setup Bible studies to share the
message of Jesus, door knock,things like that.
(33:02):
And then later now, when, likemy kids go on a mission trip,
they're going to do serviceprojects, do acts of mercy and
things like that.
So it's just interesting theway we've conceived of mission
and I do think there is someconfusion around that.
I've been the Center forChurch-City Engagement has been
(33:23):
working on a project where we'vebeen going to different cities
and doing listening sessionswith church leaders and doing
listening sessions with churchleaders and we're trying to just
understand what our urbanchurch leaders are thinking
about, wrestling with what aretheir hopes, dreams, barriers
and struggles.
Well, one of the themes I'venoticed we're still working
(33:44):
through the data but one of thethings I've noticed is there is
confusion around what is themission of God and what are we
as a church needing to be doing.
And so we'll hear from a churchleader saying, hey, we're doing
this really great work offeeding and tutoring kids in
(34:04):
schools and things like that,and then you'll always have
somebody else, yeah, but we needto be sharing the message with
them, you know.
And so that tension is thereand I think, any time, if you
have an urban church, a churchin the city that is trying to
reach out to its neighborhood,this is going to be a tension
that comes up, I think, in termsof, ok, how do we navigate this
(34:28):
?
Well, first of all, we have togo back to what do we believe
the gospel to be and what do webelieve God's mission to be and
how do we understand that?
And when I look at the ministryof Jesus, I see Jesus when he
said he came teaching, preachingand healing.
So to me that is a holisticapproach.
(34:51):
But it was a holistic approachthat was intertwined, it was not
separate.
It was not okay one day I'mgoing to preach and the other
day I'm going to feed.
It was he fed the 5,000 as hetaught them.
It was kind of something thatwas all intertwined together.
And as you look at an urbanneighborhood, a neighborhood in
the city, as you look at anurban neighborhood, a
neighborhood in the city, you'regoing to see spiritual, social,
(35:16):
physical, relational, emotionalissues that are all intertwined
.
And so you have a single momwho is struggling to find a job
and to get out of poverty.
Well, part of her issues aresocial, maybe she's made some
bad decisions.
Maybe part of her issues aresystemic, maybe she's trapped in
(35:37):
a system that's hard to breakthrough.
But part of her issues arespiritual and having a
relationship with God.
And so if we're going tominister to an urban
neighborhood, it seems to methat our ministry is going to
have to be holistic.
That's a way that's intertwined.
We're going to have to preachand teach and heal, and so that
(36:00):
means, I think, feeding andclothing and ministering to
those that are sick, andvisiting those in prison, and
working for actions of mercy andjustice, while at the same time
proclaiming the verbal messageof Jesus and that you need Jesus
in your life and you need torepent and be baptized.
(36:20):
To me, it seems that it needsto go together and churches need
to find ways, and this is, Ithink, the challenge.
Churches need to find ways tointertwine that.
So, if we have a food pantry,how can we couple that with some
element of spiritual outreach?
It doesn't mean that we'redemanding that, in order to get
(36:42):
the food that you've got to havea Bible study.
We're not saying that and thenall we do is give out food.
That is good, that is kingdomwork.
But can we couple with that anattempt to share the message of
Jesus, or to pray with you, orto encourage you to walk towards
Jesus?
Or if we have a health clinic,can we pray with all the
patients?
If we're offering clothing, orif we're tutoring kids in the
(37:05):
neighborhood school, can weinvite them to children's Bible
class on Sunday?
How can we make thisintertwined?
I think there needs to be morethought on that, but I think, as
you delve into the urbancontext, the urban world, there
was one writer who described itthis way that you know,
(37:27):
complicated wickedness.
There's complicated wickednessin the world and it's not
something that I can just say,oh, this one thing is all you
need.
It's a myriad.
I need complete restoration.
I need to be completelyreconciled back to God and
restored back to him, and I seeJesus doing that.
I see Jesus he heals the blindman by the pool of Siloam.
(37:51):
That has a holistic effect towhere now he can be restored
into society, he can get a job,he can be back with his family,
he can see as well as he cancome to have his sins forgiven,
and so we want to have that samesort of approach, in my view,
to where we are, where it'sholistic, where we care about
(38:12):
the holistic person and we'redoing it all together in an
intertwined format.
BT Irwin (38:17):
I want to ask you here at the end is if people are
listening to this and most ofour listeners are in urban
centers in large cities andthey're listening to this
conversation.
Maybe they've read the columnyou wrote for the Christian
Chronicle and they want to knowhow they can get involved.
What do you have for them?
Dr. Steve Cloer (38:37):
Well, I would love for them to be connected
with the Center for Church andCity Engagement and just to know
about what the center is doing,the resources that we're
developing.
This is a new center.
It started in August of thispast year and one of the main
goals of the center is tosupport churches and cities.
And so you know, if you're, ifyou work at a church that's in
(39:02):
an urban location, we want youto be connected with the Center
for Churches and Engagement and,as a part of our work, we're
going to be a key sponsor of theNational Urban Ministry
Conference, which happens everyFebruary.
This next February it'll be inLittle Rock, arkansas, hosted by
the River City Church, and Iwould encourage you, if you are
(39:23):
working at a church or a memberof a church in an urban setting,
come to the Urban MinistryConference and be a part.
And you may think, no, that'snot for me.
Probably it is for you.
Probably if you're trying toreach the neighborhood in the
city that you're in.
It's just like, as I mentionedin the column about Mark Powell,
(39:43):
who's the now preacher at theDonaldson Church of Christ
150-year-old church in EastNashville you think, oh, that's
not a place to do urban ministry, quote unquote when actually
they have a recovery program,they have a church or a group
that meets in their buildingthat worships in Swahili.
(40:04):
They're reaching out to theneighborhood schools, they're
dealing with young adults movinginto the neighborhood, they're
navigating urban issues andprobably at your church, if you
look at your neighborhood, it'sthe same kinds of urban issues
that are plaguing yourneighborhood.
And so how do you do that?
How does your church engagethat?
(40:26):
Well, come to the UrbanMinistry Conference and we'll
talk about that.
And if I can be helpful to yourchurch or your leaders, the
center can be helpful.
We want to do that.
We want to be helpful so thatchurches and cities can engage
their neighborhoods.
BT Irwin (40:42):
Well, Dr Steve Kloer is Associate Professor of
Ministry at the Harding Schoolof Theology in Searcy, Arkansas,
and the Director of the Centerfor Church and City Engagement
in Memphis, Tennessee.
He recently contributed a guestcolumn titled the Changing Face
of Urban Ministry to theChristian Chronicle.
The link will be in the shownotes.
Dr Clover, thank you for goingto the city with us today.
Dr. Steve Cloer (41:05):
You're welcome.
BT Irwin (41:06):
Thank you for the invitation.
It's been a pleasure.
We hope something you heard inthis episode encouraged,
enlightened or enriched you in.
(41:26):
It's been a pleasure morepeople.
Please send your comments,ideas and suggestions to podcast
at christianchronicleorg.
We love to receive them anddon't forget our ministry to
inform and inspire Christiansand congregations around the
world is a non-profit ministrythat relies on your generosity.
So if you like this show andyou want to keep it going and
(41:48):
make it even better, please makea tax-deductible gift to the
Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg.
Slash donate.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis a production of the
Christian Chronicle Incorporated, informing and inspiring Church
of Christ congregations,members and ministries around
the world since 1943.
(42:08):
The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Audrey
Jackson, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and executive director
and CEO Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis written, directed, hosted
and edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan at
Podcast your Voice Studios inthe Motor City, detroit,
(42:29):
michigan, usa.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
We're bringing you the storiesshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
I'm BT Irwin.
It is an honor and pleasure tobe your host.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
Listeners to this show know Ilive just outside Detroit,
(00:27):
michigan, usa.
It's always interesting, whenwe visit some other part of the
country, to listen to whatpeople think of Detroit who
haven't been here or haven'tbeen here in a long time.
Detroit is a case study in howcities in the United States are
changing these days.
Like many US cities in the midto late 20th century, detroit's
inner city fell on hard times asupwardly mobile and well-off
(00:52):
white residents left for thesuburbs.
This enormous disinvestment ofpolitical power and wealth left
cities like Detroit hollowed out, as things like jobs, services
and tax revenue migrated away.
Those with the fewest economicand political means could not
afford to follow.
In many cases those were peopleof color who were not even
(01:14):
close to recovering from decadesof legal barriers to education,
home ownership and jobs.
Despair metastasized in aninner-city economic depression
and jobs Despair metastasized inan inner-city economic
depression.
Churches moved.
Too Many suburban congregationsstarted in the city and moved
out.
When their members moved, thosecongregations became sources of
money and volunteers that theysent back into the city in
(01:37):
support of what they calledurban ministries that sprung up
to serve those struggling withlife there.
For years my own suburbancongregation has supported
ministries to the homeless ininner city Detroit, but things
have changed in Detroit and manyother cities over the last 20
to 30 years.
Not long ago I had lunch withthe pastor of a Presbyterian
church in inner city Detroit.
(01:58):
He told the story of how, fromthe 1960s until recent years,
that congregation's ministriesgrew in response to the drug
abuse, homelessness, joblessness, mental illness and poverty
that characterized itsneighborhood.
In the last few years, however,things in the neighborhood
changed.
Today the church is surroundedby new hotels, offices,
(02:20):
restaurants and upscaleresidences.
The people the church onceserved through its ministries
are gone from the neighborhood.
The neighbors who live aroundthe church now are wealthy,
white and young.
So are that church's ministriesto these newcomers still urban
ministries as we have thoughtabout them for generations?
That phenomenon of changinginner cities and how they affect
(02:42):
what we call urban ministry isthe subject of a recent guest
column that we published in theChristian Chronicle.
The author of that column is DrSteve Cloer, associate
Professor of Ministry at HardingSchool of Theology in Searcy,
arkansas, and Director of theCenter for Church and City
Engagement in Memphis, tennessee.
The title of his column is theChanging Face of Urban Ministry.
(03:04):
You can read it at the link weput in the show notes, but Dr
Cloer is here to talk about itnow.
Dr Cloer, why is urban ministrya conversation worth having now
?
Dr. Steve Cloer (03:13):
Well, I mean, first and foremost, the world is
predominantly urban, and so weneed to have this conversation,
because that's where our worldis Somewhere around the mid
2000s, 2007, 2008, that theworld population became more
urban than rural.
I think it's around 55% rightnow the world's population is
(03:39):
urban, and that number is justgoing to go up.
There's still, I think, onecontinent Africa is still
predominantly rural, but it'squickly becoming more urban, so
that number is going to go up.
There's still, I think, onecontinent Africa is still
predominantly rural, but it'squickly becoming more urban, so
that number is going to go up.
Latin America is around 80percent urban.
United States predominantlyurban.
So that's the context that we'rein is people moving to cities,
living in cities, and so I thinkwe need to talk about then what
(04:03):
does it look like to doministry in urban areas?
Because that's going to be alittle bit different than maybe
a rural or even a suburban areaof some sorts.
Churches of Christ have more ofa rural background, and so
that's kind of how our movementgrew up, and so I think shifting
(04:25):
into an urban context is alittle bit challenging for our
churches in some cases, and so,because of that, I think we need
to talk about this.
I think we need to have anemphasis.
You know, I work at HardingSchool of Theology.
Most of the students fromHarding, or the people that are
in the school of theology theygraduate.
They're going to be working ina city, they're going to be
(04:47):
moving to Nashville, little Rockor Dallas, fort Worth or
someplace like that, and so wehave to be thinking about what
does ministry look like in anurban area?
BT Irwin (04:56):
because of that, Our editors gave your Christian
Chronicle guest column theheadline the Changing Face of
Urban Ministry.
Tell us about that.
What are the trends that areshaping what we in the Church of
Christ have been calling urbanministry for the last few
generations?
Dr. Steve Cloer (05:15):
That's a good question.
In some ways, urban ministryhas been around ever since
there's been the gospel in thecity, and so you can make an
argument that the apostle Paulwas doing urban ministry as he
went through missionary journeysand traveled to big cities like
Athens and Corinth and Ephesusand Antioch, and I mean these
(05:39):
were big, ancient cities andthey were doing ministry in
those cities, and so in someways urban ministry has always
been around.
And in our restoration movement,david Lipscomb was involved in
Nashville and doing ministrythere.
You have the example of EH Imesand the Central Church of
(06:01):
Christ, an attempt to plant achurch in the downtown area of
Nashville that served the poorand those struggling and that
had a tremendous impact at thatpoint.
But in my lifetime, when Ithink about urban ministry, I
think about an emphasis thatstarted in the 1990s, I would
(06:22):
say, when a lot of predominantlywhite churches of Christ
realized that the downtown areasof our cities had become
forsaken, neglected in somesenses, and that there was a lot
of poverty.
And so there was an attempt toview the downtown areas, the
(06:42):
inner cities, from amissiological lens.
And so let's plant churches inthe inner cities, let's start
ministries in the inner cities,and so we had all these
different inner city ministriesthat started popping up in many
different cities around theUnited States.
There was a big effort inMemphis.
(07:02):
It was called the Memphis UrbanMinistry at the time, but it
was happening in other cities,in Little Rock, in Dallas, in
Fort Worth, in Denver, inPortland, in Chicago, in St
Louis and many other places, andit was around that time that
there was a conference that wasstarted to try to provide
networking to all of thesequote-unquote urban ministries.
(07:26):
It's called the National UrbanMinistry Conference.
My friend, harold Shank, tellsme that when this conference
begun, they counted around 90different ministries in
different cities in the UnitedStates, which is a lot, and so
that I think when we think abouturban ministry, particularly in
(07:47):
predominantly white churches,that's often what we think about
is this attempt to startministries in kind of the
downtown areas.
Now I should add to this thatpredominantly African-American
churches and predominantlyHispanic churches have been in
existence in the downtown urbancore of our cities for many
decades, and when a lot ofchurches moved out, they stayed.
(08:10):
So there's a lot of a lot ofchurches that are probably
African-American, who are who'veconsistently been engaging what
we might say quote unquoteurban ministry.
So that's something of thetrend, I think.
Now we're seeing a lot ofchange going on.
We call this gentrification incities to where we're having to
(08:32):
kind of rethink what we meanwhen we use the phrase urban
ministry.
BT Irwin (08:39):
As I read your column I thought about everything I
ever assumed or imagined abouturban ministry, and I awoke to
this realization about myselfwhen I hear the words urban
ministry.
And I think it's helpful for usto kind of define what that
means, because it could meandifferent things to different
people.
For me, I picture people ofcolor who are often poor, and
(09:01):
when I think of them I don'teven think about their location
per se.
In other words, my mindassociates urban ministry more
with poor people of color thanwith the quote-unquote inner
city.
So I wonder, for Christians wholive and look like me and I'm a
white guy who lives in thesuburbs to what extent does the
term urban ministry actuallymean urban as in a specific
(09:24):
context or place, or does itactually serve as a euphemism
for certain groups of peoplelike people of color?
Dr. Steve Cloer (09:32):
Yeah, that's a good tough question and I
understand what you're saying.
I think that word urban canmean different things to
different people, differentthings to different people, and
that's one of the reasons why atHarding, when we started this
Center for Church and CityEngagement, we wrestled with,
okay, what do we call thiscenter?
(09:52):
And we thought about Center forUrban Engagement or Urban
Ministry, and we decided to notuse the word urban.
Instead we used the word city,because we felt like that was
more inclusive.
The word urban Instead we usedthe word city, because we felt
like that was more inclusive,more comprehensive, and we felt
like it also communicated moreof what we were trying to do.
(10:15):
I think some churches, when theyhear the word urban ministry,
they think, oh, that's notsomething that we do, that's
something that some otherministry does or some other
church does, and we don't reallydo that, whereas I think if
we're a church in a city, you'reengaged in ministry to the city
.
So, yeah, I think that thatword can be problematic.
Like you said, it can typicallycause us to think about
ministering to people who are inpoverty or ministering into
(10:38):
distressed neighborhoods.
I prefer thinking about theword city, which, the way I
would define city is three wordsdensity, diversity in place,
density, diversity in place.
So you're in one place that'swhere there's a lot, of, a lot
of people who are a lot ofdifferent kinds of people, that
(11:00):
we would call that a city.
We would call that a city, andif I am, if we're a church in
that city and we're going to tryto minister to the city,
minister to our neighborhood inour city, well, probably you're
going to be dealing with poverty.
Probably you're going to bedealing with diversity.
Probably you're going to bedealing with immigration and
(11:21):
refugees.
Probably you're going to bedealing with different languages
being spoken.
Probably you're going to bedealing with different languages
being spoken.
Probably you're going to bedealing with loneliness and
isolation, all the differentthings that are prevalent within
quote unquote urban areas.
You're probably going to bedealing with that if you are a
church in a city.
And so let's think about whatdoes it mean to engage in city
(11:43):
ministry and to be a church forthe city?
I think that's maybe a morehelpful, more inclusive, more
comprehensive approach tothinking about this than what
we've thought about urbanministry in the past.
Now, certainly, there are goingto be some churches that are in
more of a distressedneighborhood and so they're
(12:04):
going to be a lot more focusedon addiction recovery or they're
going to be a lot more focusedon benevolent ministry and
things of that nature, andthere's going to be some
churches that are in a morewealthier location and so their
ministries are going to look alittle bit different.
But the way the city ischanging and the city of Memphis
is a good example the threemost distressed neighborhoods in
(12:27):
the city of Memphis at leastwhat I would say three most
distressed neighborhoods areoutside the I-240 loop, so used
to is okay.
Inside the loop is where theurban core is, where the
struggles are.
Now it's outside the I-240 loopand I think that's what we're
seeing in a lot of cities isit's very desirable to live in
(12:49):
the downtown area.
It may be a pocket in a firstring suburb or someplace like
that.
That is where there's a lot ofdistressed and under-resourced
areas.
So that's why I think justchurches in the city need to
think about how do we ministerto the city.
BT Irwin (13:06):
So, when you were working through what to call the
Center for Church and CityEngagement and you were
struggling with languagelanguage is important because it
means something right and youwere intentional about not using
the word urban but using theword city.
My question is urban ministry.
(13:27):
It's a term that we've used inthe Church of Christ for
generations and it meansdifferent things to different
people, but I wonder, is itstill a useful term for us to
use now?
Do we need new language thatreflects a new imagination and
understanding of what ishappening or needs to happen?
Dr. Steve Cloer (13:46):
That's a good question too.
To be honest, I don't reallyknow.
I think the term can still behelpful.
You know, barna did someresearch.
I have the book here with mecalled Inside the Urban Church
and I've looked at that research.
The way they define urban isthey use the way the United
(14:09):
States Census uses the wordurban, which is they define an
area that has 425 housing unitsper square mile.
So that's an urban area.
So they're they're focusing onpopulation there, um, just high
dense areas, and I I think thatmight be one way to think about
(14:29):
it we're engaging in urbanministry if we're in a high
dense populated area, because ifI'm in a high dense populated
area, I'm going to be dealingwith poverty, I'm going to be
dealing with, uh, diversity, I'mgoing to be dealing with all
these things.
That quote unquote in the pasthas defined urban ministry.
But I don't know.
(14:51):
That's a good question.
When I was the preacher at theSouthside Church of Christ in
just south of downtown fortworth, I really tried to promote
the idea that we're a citychurch, we're here, we're a
church for the city, and and Ithought that was a more
comprehensive, positive way toto view the vision of our, of
our church.
(15:12):
I think more churches need tothink that way, that we're a
church for the city, um, butyeah, in the past, urban
ministry has meant oftenministry to people in poverty,
ministry to people inunder-resourced areas, and maybe
that phrase can still be a clueto that.
We're engaging in urbanministry, but I want to expand
(15:34):
it, I want to think bigger,because, as I um, as was
mentioned in my article, you canbe a church in a first ring
suburb and right next door Nowyou've got uh, housing,
subsidized housing, affordablehousing.
You can be the impact Houstonchurch of Christ, which has has
a tremendous track record ofministry to people in poverty,
(15:56):
and you go to the Impact HoustonChurch.
Today, right next door arereally nice townhomes that young
adults and middle to upperclass are living in.
So we're all dealing with thisshifting, changing landscape.
So I think maybe a better wayto think about it is we're
ministering to the city.
BT Irwin (16:18):
I want to jam on that for a second, because something
you said a moment ago got methinking.
You said Barna defines an urbanarea the same way the US Census
Bureau does.
Which is what did you say?
425?
Dr. Steve Cloer (16:32):
425 housing units per square mile.
BT Irwin (16:35):
Per square mile.
So when you think about it thatway, like the congregation
where I'm a member, in anaffluent suburb of of Detroit,
there are definitely 425 housingunits probably more within the
square mile of our, our churchbuilding.
It's also a very diverse area.
I think there are over ahundred languages spoken in the
(16:57):
local school district.
So density, diversity and place.
And yet if I were to go downthe pews at my congregation and
ask people about our urbanministry work, they would
specifically talk about our workwith homeless people in Pontiac
(17:18):
, michigan, which is about 15minutes away, and it is a
majority, the majority of thepeople who live in Pontiac are
people of color.
There's a lot of poverty thereand the interesting thing about
that is, by Barna's definitionand the Census Bureau's
definition of what you're sayingright here, our congregation is
involved in urban ministryright there in its own
(17:41):
neighborhood, but people don'tthink about it that way.
Dr. Steve Cloer (17:44):
Right, right, and this is what I think more
churches need to be thinkingabout, and so I mentioned in my
column a quote from Jim Harbin.
Jim Harbin is the president ofthe National Urban Ministry
Association, which puts on theUrban Ministry Conference.
Jim planted the RaleighCommunity Church of Christ that
(18:06):
came out of the Memphis UrbanMinistry emphasis back in the
90s 2000s, and he shared thatquote with me one time.
We were talking about this verydynamic, and he said you know,
steve, it really is all urbanministry very dynamic.
And he said you know, steve, itreally is all urban ministry.
And I think that there's sometruth to that, that, yes, you
can be in maybe a little morewealthier suburb, but it is an
(18:28):
urban area by density definitionand you're dealing with some of
the elements that come with anurban area, as you mentioned,
with different languages beingspoken, many different types of
people.
How do we navigate this?
How do we minister to thisneighborhood?
I would like more churches incities to start thinking about
(18:52):
how do we minister to ourneighborhood right where we are.
To me, that's the new face ofurban ministry.
And, yeah, sure, we're going topartner with other churches to
reach certain neighborhoodswhere maybe they need a few more
resources than where we are, ormaybe are challenged in certain
ways.
We're going to still do that.
(19:12):
There's still a place for that.
But we can't simply think, okay, in our church we're just going
to kind of take care of oneanother and and do kind of urban
mission work in anotherneighborhood.
We've got to think, no, we'reurban, we're doing urban mission
work right here where we are.
This is a mission point.
Yeah, so how do we reach ourneighborhood that is constantly
(19:35):
changing, because we're livingin a city that's constantly
changing constantly changing,because we're living in a city
that's constantly changing.
BT Irwin (19:46):
Yeah, that's where, as I reflected on myself, I
thought urban ministry in myimagination is actually a
euphemism for ministering tocertain kinds of people,
regardless of where they are,and yet our congregation is
doing urban ministry, bydefinition, just by what it does
in its own community.
I have, maybe a uniqueperspective on this.
For most of my career, I'vebeen responsible for managing
(20:07):
volunteers who come to work withministries in what we think of
as inner city or urban contextshere in.
Detroit, where I live.
Almost all of those volunteersover the years have been
well-off white Christians fromthe exurbs and suburbs
surrounding the city and this ismy observation Many, if not
(20:28):
most, of them came with anassumption that no ministry is
happening in the inner cityuntil they show up.
So part of my work has been toreveal to these Christians that
they are not coming to aministry dead zone.
In fact, god is present andworking.
God's people are present andworking, and you mentioned a
moment ago how manycongregations stayed in the
(20:52):
neighborhoods that werehollowing out during white
flight and they continue to workin those neighborhoods and they
continue to minister.
Um, so I've heard from theselocals, uh, that have been
partners of mine through theyears.
Uh, local congregations, localministries in the neighborhoods,
uh, they have skin in the gamein their communities.
They have all shared with meover the years this experience
(21:15):
of Christians coming from theoutside who look right through
them as if they're not there andthey look down on what the
actual residents of theneighborhood and the
congregations and ministriesthat are there.
They kind of look down on it asprimitive or maybe not worth
doing.
So from this experience of mine, I've grown to wonder what
(21:35):
assumptions and motivations arebehind so much of what well-off
Christians call urban ministry.
Dr. Steve Cloer (21:43):
That's a really good, complicated question.
What immediately comes to mymind is oftentimes in that
situation, we think we haveresources.
This neighborhood or this groupor this church doesn't have
resources, and so we're comingto bring our resources to you,
(22:07):
and so there might be a littlebit of a kind of a Messiah
complex or a Savior complex,that we have some things that
you don't have, and so we'recoming to bring those things to
you, um, and and and so that'skind of the the, the superiority
perspective that we have.
I think a healthier way to viewthat is to think about a
(22:30):
reciprocity approach that, yeah,there there might be something
that we can offer, but there'ssomething that that you have to
offer to us.
There's some things that wehave to learn, some things that
we need to know, some thingsthat we need to hear, some
things we need to experience andand so we're yeah, we're coming
(22:52):
and we're bringing ourvolunteer hours or we're
bringing some of the resourcesthat we have, but we're also
coming because we need to hearsome things and experience some
things and learn some things,and and so approach approaching
things for more of a reciprocityrelationship, I think is a much
healthier way of thinking aboutit.
Let me give you one example.
So this is a personal example.
(23:15):
So when I was living in FortWorth, texas example so when I
was living in Fort Worth, texas,preaching for the Southside
Church, my car broke down oneday and I thought you know what?
My car's in the shop.
It's going to be a couple ofdays before it's fixed.
I'm going to ride the publicbus system.
I'm going to ride the publicbus system to work.
(23:35):
I'm going to do this forseveral days.
I'm just going to see what thisis like I ride the public bus
system and I do that.
I get a different perspective.
I see things.
I learn a lot about waiting andabout being patient.
The bus doesn't always run ontime.
Then I have all these spiritualconversations.
(23:57):
I had people come up to measking me biblical questions,
spiritual questions, not becauseI was a minister, maybe just
because I was there.
I had more spiritualconversations on the bus than I
did in the church foyer, and andso I use an example that there
were things that I learned whenI was placed myself in a in a
(24:19):
place, place I'm not normally at.
I think that could be an elementhere that, okay, we're going to
go, we're going to partner withthis ministry or this church in
a different neighborhood thatwe're not normally in, that is,
a more under-resourced ordistressed neighborhood.
Oh yeah, there's something thatI can offer here, but there's a
lot that I can learn here andthere's some things that I can
experience it.
(24:39):
So I think that's a muchhealthier approach.
Is this reciprocity?
So moving from kind of asuperiority to a level playing
field, reciprocity?
So that'd be one thought andanother thought.
To be honest, I think sometimeswe feel if we're in like a
suburban wealthier situation, wecan feel a little guilt.
(25:03):
I have all this, this stuff andand I've been blessed in so much
, so many ways and and, andhere's a neighborhood over here
that doesn't have that, and sowe feel guilty and so we're
we're kind of going to to makemake ourselves feel a little bit
better and and maybe the way todeal with that is to think
(25:25):
about maybe maybe we're actuallyin trouble.
We have, we have this wealthand we have these, these, these
resources of stuff.
I mean Jesus said it's hard forthe, for the rich man, into the
kingdom.
So maybe we're in trouble.
Maybe we're actually going toserve in this neighborhood so
that we can quote, unquote, saveourselves, so that we can learn
(25:47):
more deeply what it means tofollow Jesus.
So maybe we're going, notnecessarily because we think we
can help this person, maybewe're going because we think
this person can actually help me, because it's hard to enter the
kingdom of God as a wealthyperson.
So I think thinking more likethat is a healthier, more
(26:07):
faithful approach to engagementministry.
BT Irwin (26:15):
One of the problems that the church in the United
States has is that we tend tolook at everything through the
same lens through which ourculture looks at things.
So we tend to look at thingsthrough an economic lens, and I
think that can amount tosometimes we believe that
because we're well off, thatmeans that we're doing things
(26:37):
right.
Right, god has blessed us,we're doing things right, and if
other people are not well offeconomically, they're not doing
things as right as we are.
Therefore, we have more to giveand more to teach and less to
learn.
So in community developmentwork Habitat for Humanity, for
example, where I worked foryears it's helping everyone
(26:59):
understand that God has endowedevery community with wealth of
different kinds.
So money is one measure ofwealth, but in the kingdom of
God we measure wealth in otherways, and so that levels the
playing field between anaffluent suburban church and a
church that's in the inner city.
Because we're not looking ateconomic wealth, we're looking
(27:21):
at the variety of blessings thatGod has given us that we need
to share with one another.
So certainly, economic wealthis something we have to share,
but we almost always seeourselves as having the upper
hand and wanting to keep theupper hand.
Yeah, and how do we?
This could be a question youanswer how do we, how do we
(27:43):
model and teach in the church ofChrist a different economy
right and a different way of ofmeasuring wealth and what we
have to give and what we have toreceive from one another,
especially since we rarely comeinto contact with each other
unless we're, you know, puttingeverybody on a bus to come down
and volunteer for a day.
Right.
Dr. Steve Cloer (28:02):
Yeah, that's a great question.
A couple of thoughts on that.
Number one, I think, findingfinding opportunities to, to be
the guest in, in anotherperson's space or another
neighborhood space or anotherchurch's space, ministry space,
and so we're used to being thehost.
(28:23):
We're used to, you know, as yousaid, putting people on buses
bringing them to our church andwe put on a VBS or whatever.
We're used to being the host.
Are there ways that we can be aguest?
Are the ways that we can be ata church or ministry where we
listen, where we observe, wherewe are served, where we're the
(28:48):
guest, where we acknowledge andplace ourself in a position of
vulnerability, where we're hereto listen to what you have to
say, because there's somethingthat you have to say that I
think I need to hear.
I think that's good and I thinkthat's really important.
I think it's really importantfor white people who are maybe
living in a, as you mentioned,in a suburb.
It's very important for us toput ourselves in places where
(29:11):
we're the minority and eithereconomically or racially, and
where we listen and we learn.
And my kids when we were inFort Worth they attended an
elementary school that wasprobably Hispanic schools, a
low-income Hispanic school atthe time and that was a good
experience for us.
It was a good experience to bea minority and to listen and to
(29:34):
notice and observe and to learn,and there were things that we
learned.
So I think that's one thing tonotice and observe and to learn,
and there were things that welearned.
So I think that's one thing.
I think a second piece, and inmy work at Harding and the
classes that I teach aroundmission, one of the questions I
encourage my students to ask iswhat is God doing in the
neighborhood or in the city?
What is God doing?
(29:55):
God is doing something here.
God's at work.
As you mentioned, it's not aministry dead zone.
God was already working in theheart of Cornelius.
God was already working in theheart of the Ethiopian eunuch
before Philip showed up orbefore Peter showed up at
Cornelius.
God was already working inLydia's heart before Paul got to
Philippi.
So God's doing something hereand he's working in people's
hearts.
God's doing something here andhe's working in people's hearts,
(30:18):
and so what is he?
doing, and so can we have eyesto be attentive, to listen, to
be obedient observers, as I liketo say.
I think that's an importantquestion that we constantly need
to be asking, and sure we wantto also ask the question what
does God want to do here?
And so how can we join God inhis redemptive work?
(30:38):
But we also want to be askingwhat is God already doing?
And so that question can be areally good way to debrief or to
approach entering into aneighborhood.
That keeps us from feeling like, okay, I'm kind of the one
that's the superiority here, I'mthe one who kind of knows
everything, has the advantage.
(30:59):
No, god's the one who knowswhat is needed, god's the one
who's active, it's God's mission, it's not mine.
And so what is he doing and howcan we join him in that?
BT Irwin (31:12):
Well, I'm not an anthropologist or sociologist,
but from my armchair I thinkthat we in the Church of Christ
are at an inflection point inour movement toward God, and I
feel like there's some tensionthat's been building among us
for many years and it plays outin our ministries.
And that tension, I think, isthis my generation grew up in
(31:33):
the 80s in a Church of Christthat seemed to understand
something like urban ministry asa means to an end.
So a congregation might supporturban ministries like feeding
people, rehabilitating people,sheltering people as means to
getting people into thebaptistry and the church of
(31:54):
Christ.
I think, from my generationforward, though, emerging
generations see ministries moreas the end in themselves.
So, in other words, we don'tclothe, feed and shelter people
so that we can baptize them intothe kingdom of God.
We clothe, feed and shelterpeople because that is the
kingdom of God.
We clothe, feed and shelterpeople because that is the
kingdom of God, as Jesusdemonstrates in his own life.
(32:17):
So the measure of ourministries is not how many
people we baptize into thechurch of Christ, it's how many
people grow together into asociety where the reign and rule
of Christ is evident.
Do you observe this tension too, and if so, how do you think it
will play out as urban ministry, or whatever it becomes called,
evolves over the nextgeneration or two?
Dr. Steve Cloer (32:41):
Well, yes, I observed this tension and I
notice it and I appreciate theway you described that.
And just in my own life, I'venoticed how, when I was much
younger, when we would talkabout going on a mission trip,
it was hey, we're going to setup Bible studies to share the
message of Jesus, door knock,things like that.
(33:02):
And then later now, when, likemy kids go on a mission trip,
they're going to do serviceprojects, do acts of mercy and
things like that.
So it's just interesting theway we've conceived of mission
and I do think there is someconfusion around that.
I've been the Center forChurch-City Engagement has been
(33:23):
working on a project where we'vebeen going to different cities
and doing listening sessionswith church leaders and doing
listening sessions with churchleaders and we're trying to just
understand what our urbanchurch leaders are thinking
about, wrestling with what aretheir hopes, dreams, barriers
and struggles.
Well, one of the themes I'venoticed we're still working
(33:44):
through the data but one of thethings I've noticed is there is
confusion around what is themission of God and what are we
as a church needing to be doing.
And so we'll hear from a churchleader saying, hey, we're doing
this really great work offeeding and tutoring kids in
(34:04):
schools and things like that,and then you'll always have
somebody else, yeah, but we needto be sharing the message with
them, you know.
And so that tension is thereand I think, any time, if you
have an urban church, a churchin the city that is trying to
reach out to its neighborhood,this is going to be a tension
that comes up, I think, in termsof, ok, how do we navigate this
(34:28):
?
Well, first of all, we have togo back to what do we believe
the gospel to be and what do webelieve God's mission to be and
how do we understand that?
And when I look at the ministryof Jesus, I see Jesus when he
said he came teaching, preachingand healing.
So to me that is a holisticapproach.
(34:51):
But it was a holistic approachthat was intertwined, it was not
separate.
It was not okay one day I'mgoing to preach and the other
day I'm going to feed.
It was he fed the 5,000 as hetaught them.
It was kind of something thatwas all intertwined together.
And as you look at an urbanneighborhood, a neighborhood in
the city, as you look at anurban neighborhood, a
neighborhood in the city, you'regoing to see spiritual, social,
(35:16):
physical, relational, emotionalissues that are all intertwined
.
And so you have a single momwho is struggling to find a job
and to get out of poverty.
Well, part of her issues aresocial, maybe she's made some
bad decisions.
Maybe part of her issues aresystemic, maybe she's trapped in
(35:37):
a system that's hard to breakthrough.
But part of her issues arespiritual and having a
relationship with God.
And so if we're going tominister to an urban
neighborhood, it seems to methat our ministry is going to
have to be holistic.
That's a way that's intertwined.
We're going to have to preachand teach and heal, and so that
(36:00):
means, I think, feeding andclothing and ministering to
those that are sick, andvisiting those in prison, and
working for actions of mercy andjustice, while at the same time
proclaiming the verbal messageof Jesus and that you need Jesus
in your life and you need torepent and be baptized.
(36:20):
To me, it seems that it needsto go together and churches need
to find ways, and this is, Ithink, the challenge.
Churches need to find ways tointertwine that.
So, if we have a food pantry,how can we couple that with some
element of spiritual outreach?
It doesn't mean that we'redemanding that, in order to get
(36:42):
the food that you've got to havea Bible study.
We're not saying that and thenall we do is give out food.
That is good, that is kingdomwork.
But can we couple with that anattempt to share the message of
Jesus, or to pray with you, orto encourage you to walk towards
Jesus?
Or if we have a health clinic,can we pray with all the
patients?
If we're offering clothing, orif we're tutoring kids in the
(37:05):
neighborhood school, can weinvite them to children's Bible
class on Sunday?
How can we make thisintertwined?
I think there needs to be morethought on that, but I think, as
you delve into the urbancontext, the urban world, there
was one writer who described itthis way that you know,
(37:27):
complicated wickedness.
There's complicated wickednessin the world and it's not
something that I can just say,oh, this one thing is all you
need.
It's a myriad.
I need complete restoration.
I need to be completelyreconciled back to God and
restored back to him, and I seeJesus doing that.
I see Jesus he heals the blindman by the pool of Siloam.
(37:51):
That has a holistic effect towhere now he can be restored
into society, he can get a job,he can be back with his family,
he can see as well as he cancome to have his sins forgiven,
and so we want to have that samesort of approach, in my view,
to where we are, where it'sholistic, where we care about
(38:12):
the holistic person and we'redoing it all together in an
intertwined format.
BT Irwin (38:17):
I want to ask you here at the end is if people are
listening to this and most ofour listeners are in urban
centers in large cities andthey're listening to this
conversation.
Maybe they've read the columnyou wrote for the Christian
Chronicle and they want to knowhow they can get involved.
What do you have for them?
Dr. Steve Cloer (38:37):
Well, I would love for them to be connected
with the Center for Church andCity Engagement and just to know
about what the center is doing,the resources that we're
developing.
This is a new center.
It started in August of thispast year and one of the main
goals of the center is tosupport churches and cities.
And so you know, if you're, ifyou work at a church that's in
(39:02):
an urban location, we want youto be connected with the Center
for Churches and Engagement and,as a part of our work, we're
going to be a key sponsor of theNational Urban Ministry
Conference, which happens everyFebruary.
This next February it'll be inLittle Rock, arkansas, hosted by
the River City Church, and Iwould encourage you, if you are
(39:23):
working at a church or a memberof a church in an urban setting,
come to the Urban MinistryConference and be a part.
And you may think, no, that'snot for me.
Probably it is for you.
Probably if you're trying toreach the neighborhood in the
city that you're in.
It's just like, as I mentionedin the column about Mark Powell,
(39:43):
who's the now preacher at theDonaldson Church of Christ
150-year-old church in EastNashville you think, oh, that's
not a place to do urban ministry, quote unquote when actually
they have a recovery program,they have a church or a group
that meets in their buildingthat worships in Swahili.
(40:04):
They're reaching out to theneighborhood schools, they're
dealing with young adults movinginto the neighborhood, they're
navigating urban issues andprobably at your church, if you
look at your neighborhood, it'sthe same kinds of urban issues
that are plaguing yourneighborhood.
And so how do you do that?
How does your church engagethat?
(40:26):
Well, come to the UrbanMinistry Conference and we'll
talk about that.
And if I can be helpful to yourchurch or your leaders, the
center can be helpful.
We want to do that.
We want to be helpful so thatchurches and cities can engage
their neighborhoods.
BT Irwin (40:42):
Well, Dr Steve Kloer is Associate Professor of
Ministry at the Harding Schoolof Theology in Searcy, Arkansas,
and the Director of the Centerfor Church and City Engagement
in Memphis, Tennessee.
He recently contributed a guestcolumn titled the Changing Face
of Urban Ministry to theChristian Chronicle.
The link will be in the shownotes.
Dr Clover, thank you for goingto the city with us today.
Dr. Steve Cloer (41:05):
You're welcome.
BT Irwin (41:06):
Thank you for the invitation.
It's been a pleasure.
We hope something you heard inthis episode encouraged,
enlightened or enriched you in.
(41:26):
It's been a pleasure morepeople.
Please send your comments,ideas and suggestions to podcast
at christianchronicleorg.
We love to receive them anddon't forget our ministry to
inform and inspire Christiansand congregations around the
world is a non-profit ministrythat relies on your generosity.
So if you like this show andyou want to keep it going and
(41:48):
make it even better, please makea tax-deductible gift to the
Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg.
Slash donate.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis a production of the
Christian Chronicle Incorporated, informing and inspiring Church
of Christ congregations,members and ministries around
the world since 1943.
(42:08):
The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Audrey
Jackson, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and executive director
and CEO Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis written, directed, hosted
and edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan at
Podcast your Voice Studios inthe Motor City, detroit,
(42:29):
michigan, usa.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
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