April 17, 2025 • 41 mins
What is Christian nationalism and what are its effects on the United States? Christians these days may choose to consume any number of blogs, books, cable news, podcasts, social media and talk radio shows that deal with those questions.
In this episode, however, we address how Christian nationalism may effect the Church of Christ community in the United States. In other words, is it bad or good for the health, integrity and witness of the church and its members?
Dr. Christina Littlefield, co-author with Dr. Richard Hughes, of Christian America and the Kingdom of God (University of Illinois Press) helps us unpack what "Christian nationalism" actually means and how the idea developed and manifested in the United States over 400 years. She answers questions like:
- Is Christian nationalism biblical?
- Can Christian nationalism be a good thing?
- How embedded and engaged should Christians be in the halls of power and in the public square?
- How does Christian nationalism affect Christians and congregations who embrace it?
- How might the Church of Christ community avoid the sin of political idolatry?
Links to books and podcast episodes that appear in this interview:
Myths America Lives By: White Supremacy and the Stories that Give Us Meaning, by Richard Hughes
Reviving the Ancient Faith: The Story of Churches of Christ in America, by Richard Hughes
Donate to support this ministry of "information and inspiration" at christianchronicle.org/donate
Send your comments, ideas, and suggestions to podcast@christianchronicle.org
Photo by Cody Otto on Unsplash
Attend the 16th Annual Brotherhood of Men Conference this October 23 - 25 in Dallas, Texas. Click ewhiteministries.com to l
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
BT Irwin (00:03):
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
We are bringing you the storiesshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
I'm BT Irwin and it is an honorand pleasure to be your host.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
(00:23):
Today we're talking aboutChristian nationalism and we're
not making any bones about it.
Christian nationalism is not aterm I ever heard growing up in
the Church of Christ in theUnited States in the 70s, 80s
and 90s.
I can't even tell you the firsttime I heard someone use the
term Christian nationalism, butI can tell you that I started
hearing it a lot in recent years.
(00:43):
I bet you did too.
Here at the Christian Chroniclewe found that whenever we do an
article or column or podcastthat touches on Christian
nationalism, our audience growsbigger and often responds
sometimes with strong opinions,and that gives us a clue that
folks who engage the ChristianChronicle are at least curious
about Christian nationalism,indeed more curious about
(01:04):
Christian nationalism than someother subjects we cover here.
So when one of the distinguishedhistorians and scholars in the
Church of Christ communityco-authors a book on the history
of Christian nationalism in theUnited States we pay attention.
That distinguished historianand scholar is Dr Richard Hughes
, who we had on this show twicebefore.
(01:24):
Like I said, he recentlyco-authored an expanded and
updated edition of his bookChristian America and the
Kingdom of God, published thisyear by the University of
Illinois Press.
Dr Hughes wrote many books thatmay be familiar to our of
Churches of Christ in America.
His co-author is Dr ChristinaLittlefield, associate Professor
of Communication and Religionat Pepperdine University, an
(01:47):
institution of higher educationwith deep roots and strong ties
in the Church of Christ.
Before co-authoring the expandededition of Christian America
and the Kingdom of God, drLittlefield wrote Chosen Nations
Pursuit of the Kingdom of Godand Its Influence on Democratic
Values in late 19th centuryBritain and the United States.
We were going to have both DrHughes and Dr Littlefield on the
(02:09):
show, but Dr Hughes had to bowout to attend to a family matter
.
We're pleased to welcome hisco-author, dr Christina
Littlefield, to the show.
Dr Littlefield, are you readyfor this?
Christina Littlefield (02:20):
Let's go.
BT Irwin (02:20):
All right.
The last episode we did aboutChristian nationalism was
episode 64, way back in May 2024.
And we interviewed Dr Brad Eastat Abilene Christian University
.
He made the case that Christiannationalism is a term we need
to discard for a couple ofreasons.
First, it means differentthings to different people, so
(02:41):
if you and I don't mean the samething by it, we can't have a
constructive conversation aboutit.
And second, dr East said thatChristian nationalism has become
mostly a slander to mean peopleto my right on the American
political spectrum.
So the same way that words likefascists, hitler and Nazis get
thrown around so carelessly,what do you think?
(03:02):
Is there any terminology thatwe could adopt that would be
more descriptive or useful ifwe're actually trying to get
somewhere good together?
Christina Littlefield (03:11):
I hear his critique and I think it is
really important to define yourterms and what, if you're going
to use Christian nationalism,what you mean by it.
But I think it does speak andgive us language to describe
what we are seeing and whatwe've experienced historically
and what we're experiencing nowin a way that I don't know that
(03:34):
there is a better term.
And I think those other words,like fascist, are sometimes
necessary words for us to use.
But we want to be, we do whenthey convey something bigger we
do and darker.
We do want to be really carefuland define how and when we use
it and what we mean by it.
(03:55):
But no, I stand by Christiannationalism is the best term to
use.
BT Irwin (04:01):
Yeah, I think you touched on something there.
It's so hard.
One of the hardest things forme, because I think very
carefully about language, iswhen is it appropriate to use a
term and when is it not?
So for this episode, could wecome up with a working
definition of what we mean byChristian nationalism and we can
hang all the questions thatfollow on that peg follow on
(04:25):
that peg.
Christina Littlefield (04:25):
Yeah, when I think about this, I like
to actually start with the termcivil religion, which is a term
from Robert Bella that speaks tothe ways we in America bring
sacred and secular ideastogether and sometimes sacralize
secular ideas and sometimessecularize sacred ideas, and so
that speaks to like there's acultural framework where we have
values and beliefs andnarratives and philosophies and
(04:49):
it all kind of comes togetherand it shapes who we are, how we
think you know the American wayof life, and so having people
understand that term, which ismore neutral, then helps them
understand Christian nationalism, which is still a cultural
framework of sorts that fusesChristianity and nationalism
(05:10):
together and it has its ownvalues and beliefs and
narratives, et cetera.
In that way and that's howsociologists like Samuel Perry
and Andrew Whitehead tended tofind it is this cultural
framework that fuses Christianidentity and American civic life
.
I would go further and I wouldsay it's an ideology which is
why I find the term helpful thatfuses Christian identity, and
(05:33):
often white Christian identity,with the ideology of nationalism
, and so this is why this isimportant Nationalism is an
ideology that puts the nationfirst above all else.
It is often ethnic nationalism,so ethnic centric based in one
(05:54):
group of people, even within thenation, is superior to other
people, and it often breedscontempt and fear for outsiders,
outsiders being people in othernations, but even people within
your own nation who don't looklike or think like you do.
And so when we have Christiannationalism, it is a form of
(06:15):
Christian supremacy that seeksto put often white Christians
and often white Christian maleshistorically as superior to
other citizens.
And so it does have a mythickind of narrative behind it that
(06:36):
we were founded as a Christiannation, that we've somehow lost
our way, and advocates believethey have a mission from God to
kind of take back the nation,take back and make America
Christian again.
But they advocate for theirprivilege in the public sphere
and for their vision of thenation to kind of rule over and
(06:59):
dominate others.
And so we argue that,historically, this pursuit of a
Christian America and even thekingdom of God, while it has
done some good, immense good, itoften leads to the conflation
of race and culture in a waythat leads to what we call an
empire state of mind, and thatis not Christian and not
(07:21):
democratic either.
And so, yes, christiannationalism is really about
power and privilege for onegroup of citizens over other
citizens and it is putting thenation and that national
identity over the Christianfaith.
BT Irwin (07:37):
One of the questions I've always asked people when I
get into conversations with themabout this is which Christians?
Because that is a term thatapplies broadly when you're just
talking about 320 millionpeople.
So I'll ask you that whichChristians usually are we
talking about when we're talkingabout Christian nationalism in
(07:59):
the United States?
Christina Littlefield (08:00):
So our book looks historically from the
Puritans through the October 22midterms, and so, quite
honestly, all kinds ofChristians get caught up in this
story.
The more benign version is akind of a generic belief in a
Christian America that actuallymore than half of Americans fall
into and believe in, and sothat's Orthodox, mainline Roman
(08:25):
Catholic, evangelical, like allkinds of Christians can fall
into that general.
Like we want our Christianvalues to shape our nation,
right, but then it's like, okay,which Christian values?
Right, it gets even in deeperversus the Christian nationalism
is today is tends to be whiteevangelical, but it also can
(08:47):
include some Hispanic Catholicand Protestant, some black
Protestants, historically blackProtestants, some even Roman
Catholic.
There's, there's goes a littlebit of a different direction,
but so it can include allChristians direction, but so it
can include all Christians.
(09:07):
And so one thing we want towrestle with and my students
wrestle with is how do we evendefine Christian right?
We define Christian asorthodoxy, right, right beliefs,
and we often go back, thinkabout the Nicene Creed as one
way of thinking about rightbeliefs.
But we're a non-credal faith inthe Church of Christ, so that
doesn't necessarily help us,although most in the Church of
(09:30):
Christ would follow.
But our founders didn'tnecessarily right.
Barton Stone wasn't a NiceneChristian, but Alexander
Campbell was, and we might thinkthen also of orthopraxy right
practice.
Are we mimicking Christ?
Are we acting like Christ?
And so those questions can helpus.
But in Christian nationalism itis self-defined.
(09:51):
The people who are propagatorsof it define themselves as
Christians, and how close theyhew to Christian beliefs or how
close they hew to Christianpractice is a matter of debate.
BT Irwin (10:03):
I can imagine some people listening to this right
now would say well, what's sobad about Christian nationalism?
What's wrong with wanting ourChristian values to have such
influence over our society?
Christina Littlefield (10:19):
I love that.
I love that question so much.
So let's go back anddifferentiate nationalism from
patriotism.
First of all, nationalism islove of country above all else
and also usually love of acertain people group within that
country and putting them assupreme over all else.
That's idolatry.
(10:39):
Patriotism is love for yourcountry because of its laws and
its principles and it allows youto have a right, ordering,
right.
Christian nationalism the faithgets subordinated to the nation
.
But you can have a proper civicpatriotism that seeks to care
(11:00):
for your society and appreciatethe place where you live and
lean into serving and makingthat place better.
That is healthy, that canrecognize the good right in your
society but also is is willingto critique and go.
Okay, here's where we fallshort, right, here's where we
(11:20):
can strive to do better.
And so most scholars who lookat nationalism differentiate
nationalism from patriotism.
Some might say ethnicnationalism versus civic
nationalism.
I find that that, in the wordsof Jason Blakely, one of my
colleagues still is putting,tends to put one group as kind
(11:41):
of the dominant group.
But but patriotism can bereally healthy.
When we think about howChristian values shape the
nation, I think that gets reallysticky right.
Which Christian values and howare they shaping?
So one thing I stress I wasjust talking with a group of
(12:02):
capstone seniors at Pepperdineand they were believing that
Christian nationalism was anyChristian engagement in the
public sphere or in shapingpublic policy.
I'm like, oh no, no, no, that'snot Christian nationalism.
In fact, we argue that is.
The antidote to Christiannationalism is more involvement
(12:24):
in shaping.
But it's how right it's themeans that you use.
Are you, as I think about this,are you seeking to influence,
right?
Are you by persuasion, or areyou trying to dominate by
coercion?
Are we seeking to share powerand influence with others and
(12:47):
work together in a pluralisticdemocracy for the flourishing of
everybody?
Are we seeking to privilegeourselves and our way of
thinking?
Are we seeking laws thatcontribute to the public good or
are we seeking laws that limitthe freedom of fellow citizens?
And so those are some questionsto kind of ask and wrestle with
(13:07):
, I think.
What policies and whatChristian values?
That gets even stickier right.
How do we decide?
And so I teach a whole religion, ge, that helps students think
about, wrestle with how can wedo this?
Well, how can we do this in away that avoids that empire
(13:29):
state of mind but is still trueto what we believe and
contributes to what we believe,while also leaving room for
others to contribute what theybelieve right.
BT Irwin (13:40):
Most of the folks listening to this are members or
former members of the Church ofChrist, and I reckon they're
listening because of theirrelationship to the Church of
Christ.
So I want to frame the rest ofthis conversation not in terms
of politics in the United States, but in terms of how politics
in the United States affects thehealth and integrity of the
(14:02):
Church of Christ.
Here I assume the most importantthing to people in our audience
is that they be faithful andobedient apprentices and
students of Jesus Christ andthat they maintain the health
and integrity of the body ofChrist here in the United States
.
As I was reading your book, Iwoke to this observation.
For the last several years,every conversation I hear in
(14:24):
Christian circles that dealswith politics seems to start and
end with what is good and rightfor the United States.
I cannot recall any politicaldialogue or political talk that
had the health and integrity ofthe church as its focus and goal
.
So it seems to me like we aremore and more motivated to talk
about federal policy and thepoliticking that goes into it
(14:46):
than we are to talk about thekingdom of God in the way of
Jesus Christ, almost as if thenation has replaced the church
as a first importance toChristians or, if not, that we
can no longer imagine onewithout the other, as if we
believe that the United Statesand the church are fused somehow
.
What do you think of this?
Christina Littlefield (15:07):
I mean, that's exactly the problem with
Christian nationalism is that wefuse them together and then we
subordinate the church to thenation and we might think we're
still pursuing the kingdom ofGod and whatever political party
we support, but we aresubordinating them.
And so I think that's reallyimportant.
(15:29):
That Christian nationalism isidolatry.
I would actually argue itbreaks a lot of the Ten
Commandments.
It often puts politicalideology ahead of God.
So in that way we can see thatit's not just idolatrous, but it
can be seen as adulterous.
We're cheating on the churchwith our political ideologies
(15:54):
and I think we all need to beaware of.
You know what's directing ourlives.
Is it our political worldviewor is it our Christian faith and
our work in the church, and Icould go on that particular vein
.
But I think the point about theemphasis on the US and the
(16:18):
emphasis on national politics isreally important.
We as Christians need to havean international right,
revelation right, internationalkingdom of God.
Every tribe, nation, tonguewill worship and recognize that
we need to seek the good of theentire world.
(16:38):
I also think we actually can dothe most in our own communities
and so, you know, we might beable to do the most good in our
own city, city council, stateschool board, volunteering in
our own communities.
So that kind of national focusalso, I think, sometimes keeps
(17:02):
us from doing good where we'replanted.
BT Irwin (17:06):
As somebody who's been an elected official this goes
back a little bit to what yousaid a few minutes ago when
being elected to office orserving in a public office as a
Christian, what does it mean,then, to espouse Christian
values in that place ofauthority?
I took it to mean that I have aresponsibility to love my
(17:29):
neighbors through my publicservice, so I need to comport
myself with excellence andintegrity and do the most good
for as many people as I could.
However, some people would runfor a school board or a city
council, try to get into publicoffice to promote what they
might call a Christian agenda.
(17:49):
So can you you know what I meanby that?
I mean, are those kind of twodifferent things in your mind?
Christina Littlefield (18:19):
They are it's.
Are you using the power ofpublic office to serve
curriculum or ban?
Certain books has been banned,certain maybe education?
We don't like that.
You know sex ed was the firstbattleground for a lot of
Christians, and so yeah, but arewe serving all students in that
(18:44):
community and a lot of it is soperformative?
Right Battles right now todisplay the Ten Commandments in
Louisiana schools.
Display the 10 commandments inLouisiana schools, for example.
Is that really promotingChristianity?
Is that really, you know,showing people how our faith
(19:05):
changes our lives and and andand makes us better and makes us
more loving, or is it?
It's just a coercive?
Let's push this on people in ain a way that that maybe will
make them even turn against it?
BT Irwin (19:20):
I want to.
I want to speak for those thatthat hold to hold to this idea
of Christian nationalism being apositive thing.
I reckon there are quite a fewfolks in Church of Christ pews
who who believe, much like thepeople who raised me.
Like I said, growing up insmall town Ohio.
We would say, well, what wouldbe wrong with Christian values
(19:43):
having more influence in ourculture and our society?
Certainly, I still believe thatnow.
So I want to ask what aboutChristian nationalism, as we've
defined it here, could bedangerous to the Christians who
believe in it or to the healthand integrity of the church?
(20:03):
Why is this not a threat to thenation, but a threat to our own
selves as followers of JesusChrist?
Christina Littlefield (20:11):
Well, I think it leads us into the sin
of idolatry, careful about kindof who's wagging the dog right
(20:42):
what is directing and leading us, and that's hard and that's
something our faith.
I think.
What I appreciate about theChurch of Christ is we were
trying to restore right a closer, more pure vision of
Christianity, and so I think weneed to be really careful about
that.
It is, I think, where most inour Church of Christ would fall
into is the more benign pursuitof a Christian America, and when
(21:07):
Christians were far and abovethe demographic majority in the
nation it was much easier to saywell, of course we should then
shape the nation with our values, and I think there was so much
good that came out of pursuingthe kingdom of God and we try to
(21:27):
show that particularly theending of human enslavement
right Came from people wantingtheir Christian values to shape
the nation.
Defense for human enslavementalso came from people wanting
their vision of a Christiansociety to shape the nation.
The labor rights that we takefor granted today came from
(21:50):
Christian nationalists wantingto have their Christian values
pursue the nation.
And I think a lot of goodhappening right now.
You know we have a massiveunhoused population here in
California and I see so manyChristian groups on the front
lines of trying to serve thosewho are unhoused and get them
(22:13):
help and get them into housingand get them medical treatment
and doing some immense good, andwhether that's handing out what
we call blessing bags at ourchurch of, like you know,
plastic baggies full of stuffthey need, or, you know, serving
them food and soup kitchens, or, you know, working in shelters
(22:34):
or whatnot, and so you know, mychurch has a lot of work with a
group called Many Mansions thatis about helping people get into
housing.
So the church is doing immensegood and that's Christian values
shaping the public sphere.
That's doing immense good.
The challenge with the ChristianAmerica myth is that it still
(22:57):
says that this nation should beChristian.
Right.
When we insist on the nationbeing Christian or make being a
good American be the same asbeing a good Christian being a
good Christian means you're agood American right Then we are
(23:23):
essentially led down a path thataccepts coercive means to keep
the nation Christian or to forceothers to accept some of our
visions for society.
And it's there where I think wedo a disservice to our
neighbors and to our fellowcitizens and to the witness of
our faith and so, again, themeans of how we do it, I think
are so important, and I wrestlewith students.
(23:46):
I love to wrestle with studentsbecause you know I believe
Jesus is the truth, the way andthe life.
I believe that Jesus Christ isthe way, the 100% way to God,
and so in that I could beaccused of being a Christian
supremacist.
Right, I think Christianity isthe best way to God.
(24:09):
But I have hopefully enoughhumility to also recognize I
can't intellectually prove thatI can't.
God doesn't want me to forcethat on other people.
The way that I share my faithis forthright.
Here's my, here's what Ibelieve is the truth.
Right, and I invite you topartake, I invite you to check
(24:32):
it out for yourself.
Right, it's our posture.
I think that makes thedifference.
But I think we as Christians inAmerica have to give up a
Christian America because thenumbers are no longer on our
side, and when we try to forcethat, I think we actually do
more harm to the practice oftrue Christianity.
BT Irwin (24:55):
I think we actually do more harm to the practice of
true Christianity.
Well, I'm a history nut, asanyone who knows me can tell you
, and I really appreciate thebreadth and depth of your
account of the history of howChristians have tried to
influence or outright controlsociety in the United States,
going back to even before therevolution, and that also
includes how the development ofthe United States influenced and
(25:17):
shaped how Christiansunderstand themselves in this
country and in the world.
One of the odd things about usChurch of Christ folks is that
on one hand, many of us insistthat Christianity was essential
to the direction and formationof the United States and you go
to great lengths to show thatthat is in many important ways
accurate but many of us alsodeny that the direction and
(25:41):
formation of the United Stateshad any influence on how we do
Christianity in church.
That's another way of sayingthat we often entertain imagined
and real visions of our role inshaping the country, but we
have real blind spots when itcomes to understanding how the
country shaped us.
Would you riff on that thought?
Christina Littlefield (25:59):
Yeah, I think that's so important.
We want to think that we'repure from the culture and we're
influencing the culture, but theculture isn't influencing us
and that's just False.
We you know the those whosupport the idea of America
founded as a Christian nation,often confuse the planting
(26:22):
fathers from the foundingfathers.
I got that from another scholarbut I love that idea.
So the Puritans wanted aChristian Commonwealth, but the
founding fathers set upseparation of church and state
so that there would be religiousliberty for all citizens.
And so our church movementcomes from the Second Great
(26:44):
Awakening, which was a massiverevival effort over 40 plus
years that, in response to thatsecular founding, was trying to
influence and persuade Americato kind of a Protestant culture,
cultural Christianity.
But so much of the nation'sfounding even shaped how that
(27:09):
manifested Right.
The language that we used wasthis Republican, democratic
language.
We moved away from doctrine topromote kind of democratic
ideals.
We you know most of the earlyChristians in America were of a
Calvinist variety and we atlarge kicked that to the curb
(27:32):
because Calvinist ideas ofpredestination were not very
American right.
They didn't give enough freewill and individual choice, and
so our movement absorbed all ofthis, whether we like it or not,
as much as we were trying torestore the church, we absorbed
a lot of that ethos of theSecond Great Awakening and we
(27:55):
see it most in AlexanderCampbell who of course lived
longer than Barton Stone and didmore to influence our movement.
You know he very much promotedAmerica as this new order for
the ages that was going to maybeusher in the millennium and was
going to spread democraticvalues through the West and then
on to the rest of the world andwe see that in the pages of the
(28:18):
Millennial Harbinger.
So we definitely adopted andincorporated a lot of that and
adopted a lot of theindividualism of the American
psyche of that second greatawakening age.
And it was that awakening wasvery successful in stamping the
nation as Protestant for about150 years, which is where those
(28:44):
who want to promote the idea ofa Christian American can most
point to the cultural hegemonyof Protestantism in this time
period.
Of course it left people outright, and Roman Catholics
particularly, and the Church ofJesus Christ of Latter-day
(29:04):
Saints, like there was groupsthat were excluded in that
vision of a Christian Americathat today are part of,
sometimes part of Christiannationalism, because they need
the numbers.
But in that in the second greatawakening time period there was
a ton of anti-Catholicism,particularly so.
Even then it left left peopleout of the vision.
BT Irwin (29:28):
We had.
We had Dr Hughes on the showback in episode 71 last July and
that entire episode was abouthow the founding of the United
States influenced the Church ofChrist, particularly how we read
the Bible, because and thisisn't in your current book, but
Alexander Campbell believed theBible is a constitution in the
(29:53):
same way that the USConstitution is a legal
framework for the function ofthe nation.
So we'll put a link in the shownotes to episode 71, so you can
go back and listen to that veryspecific way that the
development of the United Statesinfluenced who we are as the
Church of Christ.
I'm 49 years old.
I've been a Church of Christkid my whole life.
(30:14):
My dad and papaw were Church ofChrist preachers.
My sisters and I went to Churchof Christ colleges.
One of my observations is I'veseen a big change in focus over
my lifetime.
You make a lot of references inyour book to nostalgia in the
1950s.
I think I circled 1950s everytime I saw it in the book and it
(30:34):
seemed like there was a hundredtimes and a deep longing in the
hearts of many Christians to goback to that era, and I totally
get that.
I wasn't alive in the 50s butmy wife and I have talked a lot
lately about how we wish wecould go back to the 1980s, when
we grew up.
Because it's just human.
We long for our childhood.
(30:55):
If it was a good childhood, itwas safe, it was simple, it was
magical in our memories.
And as we get older and we facedeath, that longing gets
stronger and stronger.
So you seem to more than implythat nostalgia is a powerful
force behind politics in theUnited States and political
(31:16):
expression and focus amongChristians, I'd say particularly
in the Church of Christ, aswe've struggled a great deal in
recent years with decline inmembership and so many churches
closing.
Would you comment a little bitmore on that here?
Christina Littlefield (31:29):
Yeah, I think nostalgia is a powerful
force today and I think you'reright that it is human to yearn
for simpler days.
Right, the world is morecomplicated, more global, more
confusing.
There have been some serioushardships of you know, massive
(31:51):
shifts in the world today, fromglobalization and the closing of
factories and Rust Belt townsright, that was very painful.
The rise of the internet andthe opening up of that to lots
of different worldviews is bothexhilarating and interesting,
(32:13):
but also confusing.
Both exhilarating andinteresting, but also confusing.
And of course, then the rise ofsocial media immediately after
that, um is made us um moreconnected and less connected at
the same time.
Right, all of this breeds umfeelings of isolation and
confusion and thus, yeah, desirefor what, at the face, may seem
(32:34):
like a simpler time.
And particularly, it was a timewhere, particularly the 1950s
why that is such a decade peoplewant to go back to is that was
the peak of American Protestantcivil religion, was the peak of
(32:59):
American Protestant civilreligion, and it was a time
where Christianity was thedominant Protestant Christianity
was the dominant hegemonicforce and influence on our
nation.
And all of that started to fallapart in the 1960s and there
was a lot of questioning offaith, and so I think that's
what people are yearning for.
I think, particularly forChristians who resonate with
(33:20):
traditional family values.
There was an appeal that in the1950s there was our vision of
family values were the dominantnorm in our society.
So there's a yearning to kindof go back to those times.
So I get that and I think thatthat can be really appealing.
I think we just forget that noteveryone was included in that
(33:47):
vision.
Right, roman Catholics and Jewswere excluded in that vision.
We still hadn't opened upimmigration to most of the world
, so we definitely didn'tinclude other religious
worldviews or other, even people, groups, for the most part
outside of the dominant European.
(34:07):
And of course there was lots oflimits on women and people of
color.
And so when we yearn, what weyearn for is maybe you know a
time where our values werevalued, but for a lot of people
they hear that we want to goback to a time where they were
(34:28):
not valued, and so I think weneed to be.
It's good to both understandthe appeal and understand why
that same appeal is threateningto other people.
BT Irwin (34:41):
What character traits of conservative Christians in
general and Church of Christfolks in particular are reasons
for optimism about how we mightturn out as followers of God and
witnesses to our wider culture?
Okay, so there's a lot there of.
Christina Littlefield (34:54):
God and witnesses to our wider culture.
Oh, okay, so there's a lotthere.
One thing you were saying abouthow the book looks at what
scripture says, and that's all.
Dr Hughes, I updated that veryminimally and that's what makes
this book unique on the marketis it looks at what does the
Bible say about a chosen nation,what does the Bible say about a
kingdom of God?
And then we lay out howChristians have tried to do that
(35:17):
over time, and the invitationis for people to measure for
themselves.
How did we do?
By your own definitions oforthodoxy and orthopraxy, how
did Christians do?
Where did they do?
Well, and we might lean intothat model, where did they fall
short?
And then my hope is that peoplewill look internally.
(35:40):
How am I doing?
Where do I need to lean in?
(36:01):
Where do I fall short Versuswhere am I rooted in scripture
and loving my neighbors andseeking to protect the least of
these?
And I think where conservativeChristians and the Church of
Christ broadly because we areactually one of the most
politically diversedenominations in the country we
are rooted in Scripture.
We know our Bibles very wellgenerally and so we have great
(36:22):
biblical literacy to know thedifference between what
Scripture says versus what maybea political pundit is saying on
air.
And I think we have a deepinternal motivation to honor God
and be Christ's disciples andwitness by our love.
(36:44):
And so I think if we can leaninto those things, those will
serve us really well.
I think we do need to be reallymindful of what we're consuming
and how much time we give tothat consumption versus how much
time we give to being incommunity and fellowship with
Christians, our fellow believers, in weekly communion, in prayer
(37:08):
and Bible study and smallgroups.
Right, how are we balancingthat so that we really have
strong roots and strongfoundations?
And I think that's what we dobest and that will guard our
hearts and minds well, I think.
BT Irwin (37:29):
Well said Well.
Dr Christina Littlefield isco-author, along with our friend
Dr Richard Hughes, of ChristianAmerica and the Kingdom of God
White Christian Nationalism fromthe Puritans through January 6,
2021.
Updated and expanded editionfrom University of Illinois
Press.
As a Bible nerd and historybuff, and who loves the Church
of Christ and the United States,I cannot recommend this book
(37:52):
enough.
Whether you end up agreeingwith the book's thesis, you will
learn a lot.
So go to the link we post inthe show notes and check it out
now.
Dr Littlefield, thank you forcarrying some heavy water with
us today.
Christina Littlefield (38:03):
My pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
BT Irwin (38:05):
We hope that something you heard in this episode
encouraged, enlightened orenriched you in some way.
If it did, thanks be to God andplease pay it forward.
Did thanks be to God and pleasepay it forward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Recommend and review itwherever you listen to your
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Your subscription,recommendation and review help
us reach more people and pleasesend your comments, ideas and
(38:27):
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Don't forget this ministry toinform and inspire Christians
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So if you like the show and youwant to keep it going and make
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(38:49):
Slash donate.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis a production of the
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of Christ congregations,members and ministries around
the world since 1943.
The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Audrey
Jackson, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and executive director
(39:10):
and CEO Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis written, directed, hosted
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Podcast your Voice Studios inthe Motor City, detroit,
michigan, usa.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
We are bringing you the storiesshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
I'm BT Irwin and it is an honorand pleasure to be your host.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
(00:23):
Today we're talking aboutChristian nationalism and we're
not making any bones about it.
Christian nationalism is not aterm I ever heard growing up in
the Church of Christ in theUnited States in the 70s, 80s
and 90s.
I can't even tell you the firsttime I heard someone use the
term Christian nationalism, butI can tell you that I started
hearing it a lot in recent years.
(00:43):
I bet you did too.
Here at the Christian Chroniclewe found that whenever we do an
article or column or podcastthat touches on Christian
nationalism, our audience growsbigger and often responds
sometimes with strong opinions,and that gives us a clue that
folks who engage the ChristianChronicle are at least curious
about Christian nationalism,indeed more curious about
(01:04):
Christian nationalism than someother subjects we cover here.
So when one of the distinguishedhistorians and scholars in the
Church of Christ communityco-authors a book on the history
of Christian nationalism in theUnited States we pay attention.
That distinguished historianand scholar is Dr Richard Hughes
, who we had on this show twicebefore.
(01:24):
Like I said, he recentlyco-authored an expanded and
updated edition of his bookChristian America and the
Kingdom of God, published thisyear by the University of
Illinois Press.
Dr Hughes wrote many books thatmay be familiar to our of
Churches of Christ in America.
His co-author is Dr ChristinaLittlefield, associate Professor
of Communication and Religionat Pepperdine University, an
(01:47):
institution of higher educationwith deep roots and strong ties
in the Church of Christ.
Before co-authoring the expandededition of Christian America
and the Kingdom of God, drLittlefield wrote Chosen Nations
Pursuit of the Kingdom of Godand Its Influence on Democratic
Values in late 19th centuryBritain and the United States.
We were going to have both DrHughes and Dr Littlefield on the
(02:09):
show, but Dr Hughes had to bowout to attend to a family matter
.
We're pleased to welcome hisco-author, dr Christina
Littlefield, to the show.
Dr Littlefield, are you readyfor this?
Christina Littlefield (02:20):
Let's go.
BT Irwin (02:20):
All right.
The last episode we did aboutChristian nationalism was
episode 64, way back in May 2024.
And we interviewed Dr Brad Eastat Abilene Christian University
.
He made the case that Christiannationalism is a term we need
to discard for a couple ofreasons.
First, it means differentthings to different people, so
(02:41):
if you and I don't mean the samething by it, we can't have a
constructive conversation aboutit.
And second, dr East said thatChristian nationalism has become
mostly a slander to mean peopleto my right on the American
political spectrum.
So the same way that words likefascists, hitler and Nazis get
thrown around so carelessly,what do you think?
(03:02):
Is there any terminology thatwe could adopt that would be
more descriptive or useful ifwe're actually trying to get
somewhere good together?
Christina Littlefield (03:11):
I hear his critique and I think it is
really important to define yourterms and what, if you're going
to use Christian nationalism,what you mean by it.
But I think it does speak andgive us language to describe
what we are seeing and whatwe've experienced historically
and what we're experiencing nowin a way that I don't know that
(03:34):
there is a better term.
And I think those other words,like fascist, are sometimes
necessary words for us to use.
But we want to be, we do whenthey convey something bigger we
do and darker.
We do want to be really carefuland define how and when we use
it and what we mean by it.
(03:55):
But no, I stand by Christiannationalism is the best term to
use.
BT Irwin (04:01):
Yeah, I think you touched on something there.
It's so hard.
One of the hardest things forme, because I think very
carefully about language, iswhen is it appropriate to use a
term and when is it not?
So for this episode, could wecome up with a working
definition of what we mean byChristian nationalism and we can
hang all the questions thatfollow on that peg follow on
(04:25):
that peg.
Christina Littlefield (04:25):
Yeah, when I think about this, I like
to actually start with the termcivil religion, which is a term
from Robert Bella that speaks tothe ways we in America bring
sacred and secular ideastogether and sometimes sacralize
secular ideas and sometimessecularize sacred ideas, and so
that speaks to like there's acultural framework where we have
values and beliefs andnarratives and philosophies and
(04:49):
it all kind of comes togetherand it shapes who we are, how we
think you know the American wayof life, and so having people
understand that term, which ismore neutral, then helps them
understand Christian nationalism, which is still a cultural
framework of sorts that fusesChristianity and nationalism
(05:10):
together and it has its ownvalues and beliefs and
narratives, et cetera.
In that way and that's howsociologists like Samuel Perry
and Andrew Whitehead tended tofind it is this cultural
framework that fuses Christianidentity and American civic life
.
I would go further and I wouldsay it's an ideology which is
why I find the term helpful thatfuses Christian identity, and
(05:33):
often white Christian identity,with the ideology of nationalism
, and so this is why this isimportant Nationalism is an
ideology that puts the nationfirst above all else.
It is often ethnic nationalism,so ethnic centric based in one
(05:54):
group of people, even within thenation, is superior to other
people, and it often breedscontempt and fear for outsiders,
outsiders being people in othernations, but even people within
your own nation who don't looklike or think like you do.
And so when we have Christiannationalism, it is a form of
(06:15):
Christian supremacy that seeksto put often white Christians
and often white Christian maleshistorically as superior to
other citizens.
And so it does have a mythickind of narrative behind it that
(06:36):
we were founded as a Christiannation, that we've somehow lost
our way, and advocates believethey have a mission from God to
kind of take back the nation,take back and make America
Christian again.
But they advocate for theirprivilege in the public sphere
and for their vision of thenation to kind of rule over and
(06:59):
dominate others.
And so we argue that,historically, this pursuit of a
Christian America and even thekingdom of God, while it has
done some good, immense good, itoften leads to the conflation
of race and culture in a waythat leads to what we call an
empire state of mind, and thatis not Christian and not
(07:21):
democratic either.
And so, yes, christiannationalism is really about
power and privilege for onegroup of citizens over other
citizens and it is putting thenation and that national
identity over the Christianfaith.
BT Irwin (07:37):
One of the questions I've always asked people when I
get into conversations with themabout this is which Christians?
Because that is a term thatapplies broadly when you're just
talking about 320 millionpeople.
So I'll ask you that whichChristians usually are we
talking about when we're talkingabout Christian nationalism in
(07:59):
the United States?
Christina Littlefield (08:00):
So our book looks historically from the
Puritans through the October 22midterms, and so, quite
honestly, all kinds ofChristians get caught up in this
story.
The more benign version is akind of a generic belief in a
Christian America that actuallymore than half of Americans fall
into and believe in, and sothat's Orthodox, mainline Roman
(08:25):
Catholic, evangelical, like allkinds of Christians can fall
into that general.
Like we want our Christianvalues to shape our nation,
right, but then it's like, okay,which Christian values?
Right, it gets even in deeperversus the Christian nationalism
is today is tends to be whiteevangelical, but it also can
(08:47):
include some Hispanic Catholicand Protestant, some black
Protestants, historically blackProtestants, some even Roman
Catholic.
There's, there's goes a littlebit of a different direction,
but so it can include allChristians direction, but so it
can include all Christians.
(09:07):
And so one thing we want towrestle with and my students
wrestle with is how do we evendefine Christian right?
We define Christian asorthodoxy, right, right beliefs,
and we often go back, thinkabout the Nicene Creed as one
way of thinking about rightbeliefs.
But we're a non-credal faith inthe Church of Christ, so that
doesn't necessarily help us,although most in the Church of
(09:30):
Christ would follow.
But our founders didn'tnecessarily right.
Barton Stone wasn't a NiceneChristian, but Alexander
Campbell was, and we might thinkthen also of orthopraxy right
practice.
Are we mimicking Christ?
Are we acting like Christ?
And so those questions can helpus.
But in Christian nationalism itis self-defined.
(09:51):
The people who are propagatorsof it define themselves as
Christians, and how close theyhew to Christian beliefs or how
close they hew to Christianpractice is a matter of debate.
BT Irwin (10:03):
I can imagine some people listening to this right
now would say well, what's sobad about Christian nationalism?
What's wrong with wanting ourChristian values to have such
influence over our society?
Christina Littlefield (10:19):
I love that.
I love that question so much.
So let's go back anddifferentiate nationalism from
patriotism.
First of all, nationalism islove of country above all else
and also usually love of acertain people group within that
country and putting them assupreme over all else.
That's idolatry.
(10:39):
Patriotism is love for yourcountry because of its laws and
its principles and it allows youto have a right, ordering,
right.
Christian nationalism the faithgets subordinated to the nation
.
But you can have a proper civicpatriotism that seeks to care
(11:00):
for your society and appreciatethe place where you live and
lean into serving and makingthat place better.
That is healthy, that canrecognize the good right in your
society but also is is willingto critique and go.
Okay, here's where we fallshort, right, here's where we
(11:20):
can strive to do better.
And so most scholars who lookat nationalism differentiate
nationalism from patriotism.
Some might say ethnicnationalism versus civic
nationalism.
I find that that, in the wordsof Jason Blakely, one of my
colleagues still is putting,tends to put one group as kind
(11:41):
of the dominant group.
But but patriotism can bereally healthy.
When we think about howChristian values shape the
nation, I think that gets reallysticky right.
Which Christian values and howare they shaping?
So one thing I stress I wasjust talking with a group of
(12:02):
capstone seniors at Pepperdineand they were believing that
Christian nationalism was anyChristian engagement in the
public sphere or in shapingpublic policy.
I'm like, oh no, no, no, that'snot Christian nationalism.
In fact, we argue that is.
The antidote to Christiannationalism is more involvement
(12:24):
in shaping.
But it's how right it's themeans that you use.
Are you, as I think about this,are you seeking to influence,
right?
Are you by persuasion, or areyou trying to dominate by
coercion?
Are we seeking to share powerand influence with others and
(12:47):
work together in a pluralisticdemocracy for the flourishing of
everybody?
Are we seeking to privilegeourselves and our way of
thinking?
Are we seeking laws thatcontribute to the public good or
are we seeking laws that limitthe freedom of fellow citizens?
And so those are some questionsto kind of ask and wrestle with
(13:07):
, I think.
What policies and whatChristian values?
That gets even stickier right.
How do we decide?
And so I teach a whole religion, ge, that helps students think
about, wrestle with how can wedo this?
Well, how can we do this in away that avoids that empire
(13:29):
state of mind but is still trueto what we believe and
contributes to what we believe,while also leaving room for
others to contribute what theybelieve right.
BT Irwin (13:40):
Most of the folks listening to this are members or
former members of the Church ofChrist, and I reckon they're
listening because of theirrelationship to the Church of
Christ.
So I want to frame the rest ofthis conversation not in terms
of politics in the United States, but in terms of how politics
in the United States affects thehealth and integrity of the
(14:02):
Church of Christ.
Here I assume the most importantthing to people in our audience
is that they be faithful andobedient apprentices and
students of Jesus Christ andthat they maintain the health
and integrity of the body ofChrist here in the United States
.
As I was reading your book, Iwoke to this observation.
For the last several years,every conversation I hear in
(14:24):
Christian circles that dealswith politics seems to start and
end with what is good and rightfor the United States.
I cannot recall any politicaldialogue or political talk that
had the health and integrity ofthe church as its focus and goal
.
So it seems to me like we aremore and more motivated to talk
about federal policy and thepoliticking that goes into it
(14:46):
than we are to talk about thekingdom of God in the way of
Jesus Christ, almost as if thenation has replaced the church
as a first importance toChristians or, if not, that we
can no longer imagine onewithout the other, as if we
believe that the United Statesand the church are fused somehow
.
What do you think of this?
Christina Littlefield (15:07):
I mean, that's exactly the problem with
Christian nationalism is that wefuse them together and then we
subordinate the church to thenation and we might think we're
still pursuing the kingdom ofGod and whatever political party
we support, but we aresubordinating them.
And so I think that's reallyimportant.
(15:29):
That Christian nationalism isidolatry.
I would actually argue itbreaks a lot of the Ten
Commandments.
It often puts politicalideology ahead of God.
So in that way we can see thatit's not just idolatrous, but it
can be seen as adulterous.
We're cheating on the churchwith our political ideologies
(15:54):
and I think we all need to beaware of.
You know what's directing ourlives.
Is it our political worldviewor is it our Christian faith and
our work in the church, and Icould go on that particular vein
.
But I think the point about theemphasis on the US and the
(16:18):
emphasis on national politics isreally important.
We as Christians need to havean international right,
revelation right, internationalkingdom of God.
Every tribe, nation, tonguewill worship and recognize that
we need to seek the good of theentire world.
(16:38):
I also think we actually can dothe most in our own communities
and so, you know, we might beable to do the most good in our
own city, city council, stateschool board, volunteering in
our own communities.
So that kind of national focusalso, I think, sometimes keeps
(17:02):
us from doing good where we'replanted.
BT Irwin (17:06):
As somebody who's been an elected official this goes
back a little bit to what yousaid a few minutes ago when
being elected to office orserving in a public office as a
Christian, what does it mean,then, to espouse Christian
values in that place ofauthority?
I took it to mean that I have aresponsibility to love my
(17:29):
neighbors through my publicservice, so I need to comport
myself with excellence andintegrity and do the most good
for as many people as I could.
However, some people would runfor a school board or a city
council, try to get into publicoffice to promote what they
might call a Christian agenda.
(17:49):
So can you you know what I meanby that?
I mean, are those kind of twodifferent things in your mind?
Christina Littlefield (18:19):
They are it's.
Are you using the power ofpublic office to serve
curriculum or ban?
Certain books has been banned,certain maybe education?
We don't like that.
You know sex ed was the firstbattleground for a lot of
Christians, and so yeah, but arewe serving all students in that
(18:44):
community and a lot of it is soperformative?
Right Battles right now todisplay the Ten Commandments in
Louisiana schools.
Display the 10 commandments inLouisiana schools, for example.
Is that really promotingChristianity?
Is that really, you know,showing people how our faith
(19:05):
changes our lives and and andand makes us better and makes us
more loving, or is it?
It's just a coercive?
Let's push this on people in ain a way that that maybe will
make them even turn against it?
BT Irwin (19:20):
I want to.
I want to speak for those thatthat hold to hold to this idea
of Christian nationalism being apositive thing.
I reckon there are quite a fewfolks in Church of Christ pews
who who believe, much like thepeople who raised me.
Like I said, growing up insmall town Ohio.
We would say, well, what wouldbe wrong with Christian values
(19:43):
having more influence in ourculture and our society?
Certainly, I still believe thatnow.
So I want to ask what aboutChristian nationalism, as we've
defined it here, could bedangerous to the Christians who
believe in it or to the healthand integrity of the church?
(20:03):
Why is this not a threat to thenation, but a threat to our own
selves as followers of JesusChrist?
Christina Littlefield (20:11):
Well, I think it leads us into the sin
of idolatry, careful about kindof who's wagging the dog right
(20:42):
what is directing and leading us, and that's hard and that's
something our faith.
I think.
What I appreciate about theChurch of Christ is we were
trying to restore right a closer, more pure vision of
Christianity, and so I think weneed to be really careful about
that.
It is, I think, where most inour Church of Christ would fall
into is the more benign pursuitof a Christian America, and when
(21:07):
Christians were far and abovethe demographic majority in the
nation it was much easier to saywell, of course we should then
shape the nation with our values, and I think there was so much
good that came out of pursuingthe kingdom of God and we try to
(21:27):
show that particularly theending of human enslavement
right Came from people wantingtheir Christian values to shape
the nation.
Defense for human enslavementalso came from people wanting
their vision of a Christiansociety to shape the nation.
The labor rights that we takefor granted today came from
(21:50):
Christian nationalists wantingto have their Christian values
pursue the nation.
And I think a lot of goodhappening right now.
You know we have a massiveunhoused population here in
California and I see so manyChristian groups on the front
lines of trying to serve thosewho are unhoused and get them
(22:13):
help and get them into housingand get them medical treatment
and doing some immense good, andwhether that's handing out what
we call blessing bags at ourchurch of, like you know,
plastic baggies full of stuffthey need, or, you know, serving
them food and soup kitchens, or, you know, working in shelters
(22:34):
or whatnot, and so you know, mychurch has a lot of work with a
group called Many Mansions thatis about helping people get into
housing.
So the church is doing immensegood and that's Christian values
shaping the public sphere.
That's doing immense good.
The challenge with the ChristianAmerica myth is that it still
(22:57):
says that this nation should beChristian.
Right.
When we insist on the nationbeing Christian or make being a
good American be the same asbeing a good Christian being a
good Christian means you're agood American right Then we are
(23:23):
essentially led down a path thataccepts coercive means to keep
the nation Christian or to forceothers to accept some of our
visions for society.
And it's there where I think wedo a disservice to our
neighbors and to our fellowcitizens and to the witness of
our faith and so, again, themeans of how we do it, I think
are so important, and I wrestlewith students.
(23:46):
I love to wrestle with studentsbecause you know I believe
Jesus is the truth, the way andthe life.
I believe that Jesus Christ isthe way, the 100% way to God,
and so in that I could beaccused of being a Christian
supremacist.
Right, I think Christianity isthe best way to God.
(24:09):
But I have hopefully enoughhumility to also recognize I
can't intellectually prove thatI can't.
God doesn't want me to forcethat on other people.
The way that I share my faithis forthright.
Here's my, here's what Ibelieve is the truth.
Right, and I invite you topartake, I invite you to check
(24:32):
it out for yourself.
Right, it's our posture.
I think that makes thedifference.
But I think we as Christians inAmerica have to give up a
Christian America because thenumbers are no longer on our
side, and when we try to forcethat, I think we actually do
more harm to the practice oftrue Christianity.
BT Irwin (24:55):
I think we actually do more harm to the practice of
true Christianity.
Well, I'm a history nut, asanyone who knows me can tell you
, and I really appreciate thebreadth and depth of your
account of the history of howChristians have tried to
influence or outright controlsociety in the United States,
going back to even before therevolution, and that also
includes how the development ofthe United States influenced and
(25:17):
shaped how Christiansunderstand themselves in this
country and in the world.
One of the odd things about usChurch of Christ folks is that
on one hand, many of us insistthat Christianity was essential
to the direction and formationof the United States and you go
to great lengths to show thatthat is in many important ways
accurate but many of us alsodeny that the direction and
(25:41):
formation of the United Stateshad any influence on how we do
Christianity in church.
That's another way of sayingthat we often entertain imagined
and real visions of our role inshaping the country, but we
have real blind spots when itcomes to understanding how the
country shaped us.
Would you riff on that thought?
Christina Littlefield (25:59):
Yeah, I think that's so important.
We want to think that we'repure from the culture and we're
influencing the culture, but theculture isn't influencing us
and that's just False.
We you know the those whosupport the idea of America
founded as a Christian nation,often confuse the planting
(26:22):
fathers from the foundingfathers.
I got that from another scholarbut I love that idea.
So the Puritans wanted aChristian Commonwealth, but the
founding fathers set upseparation of church and state
so that there would be religiousliberty for all citizens.
And so our church movementcomes from the Second Great
(26:44):
Awakening, which was a massiverevival effort over 40 plus
years that, in response to thatsecular founding, was trying to
influence and persuade Americato kind of a Protestant culture,
cultural Christianity.
But so much of the nation'sfounding even shaped how that
(27:09):
manifested Right.
The language that we used wasthis Republican, democratic
language.
We moved away from doctrine topromote kind of democratic
ideals.
We you know most of the earlyChristians in America were of a
Calvinist variety and we atlarge kicked that to the curb
(27:32):
because Calvinist ideas ofpredestination were not very
American right.
They didn't give enough freewill and individual choice, and
so our movement absorbed all ofthis, whether we like it or not,
as much as we were trying torestore the church, we absorbed
a lot of that ethos of theSecond Great Awakening and we
(27:55):
see it most in AlexanderCampbell who of course lived
longer than Barton Stone and didmore to influence our movement.
You know he very much promotedAmerica as this new order for
the ages that was going to maybeusher in the millennium and was
going to spread democraticvalues through the West and then
on to the rest of the world andwe see that in the pages of the
(28:18):
Millennial Harbinger.
So we definitely adopted andincorporated a lot of that and
adopted a lot of theindividualism of the American
psyche of that second greatawakening age.
And it was that awakening wasvery successful in stamping the
nation as Protestant for about150 years, which is where those
(28:44):
who want to promote the idea ofa Christian American can most
point to the cultural hegemonyof Protestantism in this time
period.
Of course it left people outright, and Roman Catholics
particularly, and the Church ofJesus Christ of Latter-day
(29:04):
Saints, like there was groupsthat were excluded in that
vision of a Christian Americathat today are part of,
sometimes part of Christiannationalism, because they need
the numbers.
But in that in the second greatawakening time period there was
a ton of anti-Catholicism,particularly so.
Even then it left left peopleout of the vision.
BT Irwin (29:28):
We had.
We had Dr Hughes on the showback in episode 71 last July and
that entire episode was abouthow the founding of the United
States influenced the Church ofChrist, particularly how we read
the Bible, because and thisisn't in your current book, but
Alexander Campbell believed theBible is a constitution in the
(29:53):
same way that the USConstitution is a legal
framework for the function ofthe nation.
So we'll put a link in the shownotes to episode 71, so you can
go back and listen to that veryspecific way that the
development of the United Statesinfluenced who we are as the
Church of Christ.
I'm 49 years old.
I've been a Church of Christkid my whole life.
(30:14):
My dad and papaw were Church ofChrist preachers.
My sisters and I went to Churchof Christ colleges.
One of my observations is I'veseen a big change in focus over
my lifetime.
You make a lot of references inyour book to nostalgia in the
1950s.
I think I circled 1950s everytime I saw it in the book and it
(30:34):
seemed like there was a hundredtimes and a deep longing in the
hearts of many Christians to goback to that era, and I totally
get that.
I wasn't alive in the 50s butmy wife and I have talked a lot
lately about how we wish wecould go back to the 1980s, when
we grew up.
Because it's just human.
We long for our childhood.
(30:55):
If it was a good childhood, itwas safe, it was simple, it was
magical in our memories.
And as we get older and we facedeath, that longing gets
stronger and stronger.
So you seem to more than implythat nostalgia is a powerful
force behind politics in theUnited States and political
(31:16):
expression and focus amongChristians, I'd say particularly
in the Church of Christ, aswe've struggled a great deal in
recent years with decline inmembership and so many churches
closing.
Would you comment a little bitmore on that here?
Christina Littlefield (31:29):
Yeah, I think nostalgia is a powerful
force today and I think you'reright that it is human to yearn
for simpler days.
Right, the world is morecomplicated, more global, more
confusing.
There have been some serioushardships of you know, massive
(31:51):
shifts in the world today, fromglobalization and the closing of
factories and Rust Belt townsright, that was very painful.
The rise of the internet andthe opening up of that to lots
of different worldviews is bothexhilarating and interesting,
(32:13):
but also confusing.
Both exhilarating andinteresting, but also confusing.
And of course, then the rise ofsocial media immediately after
that, um is made us um moreconnected and less connected at
the same time.
Right, all of this breeds umfeelings of isolation and
confusion and thus, yeah, desirefor what, at the face, may seem
(32:34):
like a simpler time.
And particularly, it was a timewhere, particularly the 1950s
why that is such a decade peoplewant to go back to is that was
the peak of American Protestantcivil religion, was the peak of
(32:59):
American Protestant civilreligion, and it was a time
where Christianity was thedominant Protestant Christianity
was the dominant hegemonicforce and influence on our
nation.
And all of that started to fallapart in the 1960s and there
was a lot of questioning offaith, and so I think that's
what people are yearning for.
I think, particularly forChristians who resonate with
(33:20):
traditional family values.
There was an appeal that in the1950s there was our vision of
family values were the dominantnorm in our society.
So there's a yearning to kindof go back to those times.
So I get that and I think thatthat can be really appealing.
I think we just forget that noteveryone was included in that
(33:47):
vision.
Right, roman Catholics and Jewswere excluded in that vision.
We still hadn't opened upimmigration to most of the world
, so we definitely didn'tinclude other religious
worldviews or other, even people, groups, for the most part
outside of the dominant European.
(34:07):
And of course there was lots oflimits on women and people of
color.
And so when we yearn, what weyearn for is maybe you know a
time where our values werevalued, but for a lot of people
they hear that we want to goback to a time where they were
(34:28):
not valued, and so I think weneed to be.
It's good to both understandthe appeal and understand why
that same appeal is threateningto other people.
BT Irwin (34:41):
What character traits of conservative Christians in
general and Church of Christfolks in particular are reasons
for optimism about how we mightturn out as followers of God and
witnesses to our wider culture?
Okay, so there's a lot there of.
Christina Littlefield (34:54):
God and witnesses to our wider culture.
Oh, okay, so there's a lotthere.
One thing you were saying abouthow the book looks at what
scripture says, and that's all.
Dr Hughes, I updated that veryminimally and that's what makes
this book unique on the marketis it looks at what does the
Bible say about a chosen nation,what does the Bible say about a
kingdom of God?
And then we lay out howChristians have tried to do that
(35:17):
over time, and the invitationis for people to measure for
themselves.
How did we do?
By your own definitions oforthodoxy and orthopraxy, how
did Christians do?
Where did they do?
Well, and we might lean intothat model, where did they fall
short?
And then my hope is that peoplewill look internally.
(35:40):
How am I doing?
Where do I need to lean in?
(36:01):
Where do I fall short Versuswhere am I rooted in scripture
and loving my neighbors andseeking to protect the least of
these?
And I think where conservativeChristians and the Church of
Christ broadly because we areactually one of the most
politically diversedenominations in the country we
are rooted in Scripture.
We know our Bibles very wellgenerally and so we have great
(36:22):
biblical literacy to know thedifference between what
Scripture says versus what maybea political pundit is saying on
air.
And I think we have a deepinternal motivation to honor God
and be Christ's disciples andwitness by our love.
(36:44):
And so I think if we can leaninto those things, those will
serve us really well.
I think we do need to be reallymindful of what we're consuming
and how much time we give tothat consumption versus how much
time we give to being incommunity and fellowship with
Christians, our fellow believers, in weekly communion, in prayer
(37:08):
and Bible study and smallgroups.
Right, how are we balancingthat so that we really have
strong roots and strongfoundations?
And I think that's what we dobest and that will guard our
hearts and minds well, I think.
BT Irwin (37:29):
Well said Well.
Dr Christina Littlefield isco-author, along with our friend
Dr Richard Hughes, of ChristianAmerica and the Kingdom of God
White Christian Nationalism fromthe Puritans through January 6,
2021.
Updated and expanded editionfrom University of Illinois
Press.
As a Bible nerd and historybuff, and who loves the Church
of Christ and the United States,I cannot recommend this book
(37:52):
enough.
Whether you end up agreeingwith the book's thesis, you will
learn a lot.
So go to the link we post inthe show notes and check it out
now.
Dr Littlefield, thank you forcarrying some heavy water with
us today.
Christina Littlefield (38:03):
My pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
BT Irwin (38:05):
We hope that something you heard in this episode
encouraged, enlightened orenriched you in some way.
If it did, thanks be to God andplease pay it forward.
Did thanks be to God and pleasepay it forward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Recommend and review itwherever you listen to your
favorite podcasts.
Your subscription,recommendation and review help
us reach more people and pleasesend your comments, ideas and
(38:27):
suggestions to podcast atchristianchronicleorg.
Don't forget this ministry toinform and inspire Christians
and congregations around theworld is a non-profit ministry
that relies on your generosity.
So if you like the show and youwant to keep it going and make
it a little better, please makea tax-deductible gift to the
Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg.
(38:49):
Slash donate.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis a production of the
Christian Chronicle Incorporated, informing and inspiring Church
of Christ congregations,members and ministries around
the world since 1943.
The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Audrey
Jackson, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and executive director
(39:10):
and CEO Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis written, directed, hosted
and edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan at
Podcast your Voice Studios inthe Motor City, detroit,
michigan, usa.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
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