May 1, 2025 • 44 mins
In 2 Corinthians 3:5, the apostle Paul writes: "Not that we are competent in ourselves...but our competence comes from God. He has made us competent as ministers of the new covenant."
Casey Coston is a veteran Church of Christ campus minister of more than 20 years. As he started his third decade in ministry, he took stock of his own "incompetence" and turned it into a book: Made Competent: A Story About Life in Ministry.
In this episode, Casey touches on some of the biggest ministry challenges and shortcomings he's faced so far, including:
- Balancing the commission to "make disciples" (a slow process that happens with a few intimate relationships at a time) and the pressure to attract bigger and bigger crowds to ministry "events"
- Balancing the love the church needs and the love his own family needs (and how church and family often compete for his energy, focus and time)
- Handling disagreements and discord with church elders and members
Casey also uses his unique point of view working with emerging generations of believers and seekers to imagine:
- How evangelism is changing and must change to connect with emerging generations
- How legacy congregations and new congregations might adapt to changes in the culture (without changing the essence of the church and the gospel it practices and preaches)
- The kinds of ministers who will meet the next moment
Links for this episode:
Made Competent: A Story About Life in Ministry by Casey Coston
Campus for Christ national Church of Christ campus ministry network
Episode 72 featuring Chris Buxton and Casey Coston on campus ministry
Discipling: The Multiplying Ministry by Milton Jones
Donate to support this ministry of "information and inspiration" at christianchronicle.org/donate
Send your comments, ideas, and suggestions to podcast@christianchronicle.org
Attend the 52nd Annual Caribbean Lectureship in Barbados this July 13 - 16, 2025. Learn more and register at caribbeanlectureship.com.
Learn more about Freed-Hardeman University graduate degrees in New Testament or Old Testament at fhu.edu/chronicle.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
BT Irwin (00:03):
family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
We are bringing you the storiesshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
I'm BT Irwin.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
Have you ever heard someone talkabout imposter syndrome?
(00:28):
Imposter syndrome is apsychological phenomenon where a
person, being in a position ofgreat responsibility and or
trust, fears being exposed asincompetent and not up to the
job.
I dare say that, out of all theprofessionals who suffer from
imposter syndrome, ministers mayhave it the worst.
(00:51):
After all, we are often put inhigh visibility public positions
from which we are supposed tomodel the life of Jesus Christ
and teach others to do the same.
The stakes are measured ineternity.
Mature ministers, wiseministers, know that they are in
fact, incompetent for the highcalling of ministry, but they
(01:13):
also know that they are madecompetent by the grace, power
and working of God around in andthrough them.
As we read in the ApostlePaul's second letter to the
Church of Christ from Corinth,chapter 3, verse 5, quote not
that we are competent inourselves, but our competence
comes from God.
(01:34):
He has made us competent asministers of the new covenant.
End quote.
Our guest today is a ministerwho dared to write a book about
his imposter syndrome, that is,his feelings of inadequacy and
incompetence as a minister.
Casey Koston set out to be achemical engineer until his
life-changing encounter withRazorbacks for Christ, a Church
(01:55):
of Christ campus ministry at theUniversity of Arkansas sent him
in a whole new direction.
He eventually became a campusminister himself, first with
Rebels for Christ, a Church ofChrist campus ministry at Ole
Miss in Oxford, mississippi, andthen Blue Hens for Christ, a
Church of Christ, campusministry at the University of
(02:16):
Delaware in Newark, delaware.
He's been in campus ministryfor over 20 years now.
We had Casey on the show backin episode 72 to talk about
Campus for Christ, a nationalsupport and training ministry
for Church of Christcongregations and ministers who
want to reach the more than4,000 college campuses in the
United States.
Casey recently published hisfirst book, made Competent, a
(02:40):
story about life and ministry.
Casey, welcome back.
Thank you, brother, good to beback.
Oh, man, good to see you again.
So last time you were here backin episode 72, you were here
with Chris Buxton and the two ofyou were talking about Campus
for Christ Ministry to Church ofChrist Campus Ministries.
That conversation awakened meto a mission field that is white
(03:04):
, with harvest on more than4,000 college campuses in the
United States.
And then, when I read your book, I found myself marveling at
the scope and size of what I canonly call a campus ministry
parallel universe that existsalongside the mainstream Church
of Christ community and culture,the mainstream Church of Christ
(03:25):
community and culture.
It's like there's a whole otherChurch of Christ world that has
been right there all along, butI haven't seen it until I met
you.
Casey Coston (03:30):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Thanks for describing it thatway.
I think, as I said in the book,we're trying to take away some
of the secrecy with what we do.
We've got a long legacy incampus ministry, I mean
practically.
You know, we understand thereare very few campus ministers
and campus ministries comparedto youth ministers and preachers
(03:50):
, you know, and children'sministers.
Maybe, I don't know, maybewe're comparable to children's
ministers.
You know, we're just, we're asmall group in general but yeah,
we think we have a big impactbecause of the strategic
location that we are, you know,on the college campus.
I love that one of myapprentices former apprentices,
claire at Ole Miss.
(04:11):
She went to her first Campusfor Christ conference when she
was with us there at Ole Missand I remember her at the
conference saying where has thisbeen all my life?
Yeah, and she was a Hardingstudent and she had had a great
experience at Harding and Ithink that is a good tension for
us with this parallel universething is, I had a really good
(04:34):
experience with the campusministry at Arkansas, did
engineering, but then I feltlike God was calling me into
ministry.
So I went to Abilene Christianand so I had a great state, you
know public universityexperience.
At Arkansas I had a great, youknow, christian university
experience at Abilene Christian.
But the thing that you know Iwrote about was that I don't
remember ACU contextualizing myMDiv at any in any way, you know
(04:59):
, for campus ministry, and so bythe time I was leaving I wasn't
even looking for campusministry jobs.
I'd kind of forgotten, you know, about that calling
specifically for campus and ofcourse God still got me there,
you know, to Ole Miss.
So I think this we have apotential for a great
partnership, you know, betweenthe public university campus
(05:20):
ministries, because you knowthey sent me to ACU and I know
others go there.
Others go to our Christianschools for training, you know,
after their campus ministryexperience.
And just one thing that weprobably did in episode 72 that
I know everybody remembers, butI wanted to remind us that you
know one of the great thingsthat has occurred is that Chris
is now teaching a campusministry course at Harding.
(05:41):
And so if you're listening andyou know parents, you know ask,
you know encourage your kids tothink about taking the campus
ministry course just to see whatit's like at Harding.
And then Chris is also withMilton Jones and some others
helped to develop a certificatein campus ministry at Lipscomb
for grads, you know, graduatestudents.
So we've begun to make someinroads there and we're really
(06:04):
thankful that the partnershiphas begun.
We just hope that'll continueso that the parallel universes
you know can kind of partneruniverse a little bit more.
BT Irwin (06:13):
Yeah, we'll link all those in the show notes so
people can go check them out.
We just had Matt Dabbs on theepisode just before this one.
He brought a lot of researchalong that showed how
congregations have life cycles,like people have life cycles,
and it is rare for acongregation to make it to 100
(06:33):
years.
Most of them make it to 60, 70,80, and that's it.
And the scary thing that Mattshowed us in that episode is
most Church of Christcongregations in the United
States formed in the middle ofthe 20th century, which means
they are reaching the naturalend of their lives.
He made the case forcongregations that are at
midlife or late life to startplanting churches now.
(06:56):
Make hay while the sun shines.
I don't presume that you agreewith Matt, but if you do, could
you make a strong case for whycollege campuses would be
fertile ground for those newchurch plants?
Casey Coston (07:08):
I think a really encouraging thing to say is that
this is happening on thecollege campus.
So, for example, the EncompassCampus Ministry in Athens, ohio,
at Ohio University, zach Wolfand his team there they planted
a campus ministry and then theyalso planted a church as
(07:28):
connected to that campusministry.
So a big shout out to ChrisBuxton's, ulife Consulting, but
also Kairos Church Planting andBe One, make One was involved in
that process.
And then we've got the WellCampus Ministry where Amy
Kendall-Wilson, my good friendand board member with me in
Campus for Christ, their campusministry in Arizona, kairos
(07:52):
helped them get Treco ChurchPlant started.
So they and they literally bothof these literally meet on
campus on Sundays and so it'sreally good to see that this is
happening.
It's good to see that, you know, a small group of maybe older,
wiser, mature church members areseeing hey, we want to go to
where the students are, we wantto be part of this.
(08:13):
And, with what you're saying, tohave more church plants, we
need more ministers and that wasjust a big reason that I wrote,
wrote the book is.
I wanted just to give people asnapshot.
My story is going to be anestablished ministry story,
although the longer I stay inDelaware, the more I'm becoming,
you know, a little moremissionary, like in planting in
(08:35):
some ways.
But we just we need moreministers for these plants, and
so we need to be strategic, justlike we were with our church
buildings, like the buildings webuilt in the 50s, 60s, 70s.
We were.
We were strategic with thoseand now we need to be strategic
in a new way perhaps, and, yeah,I think, think more about
either being really close to thecollege campus or just taking
(08:57):
advantage.
You know, campus ministrieshave registered student
organization status and so wecan reserve space on campus,
normally for free or prettycheap, so churches have a great
opportunity to be part of this.
One other thing you know withthis that I think is helpful is
just when we talk about beingstrategic and trying to get
(09:19):
churches, you know, to thinkabout this with us with what
Matt was saying.
Again, there could be certainlyanecdotes that don't all fall in
line with this, but in general,a few people, 18 and younger,
will own their faith before theygo to college.
A few people, after collegewill own their faith Like it'll
become theirs.
(09:39):
It'll become real.
It won't just be their parentsor their preachers anymore,
it'll be theirs.
But college ministry to meobviously biased, but I think it
would bear out is that is themajor time that young people own
their faith.
And where better to be thanwith them when they're trying to
figure out what they're goingto hold on to, what they're
(10:00):
going to let go of and kind ofform their own faith that we
hope will still be as vibrant?
But it might look a littledifferent and that's okay.
BT Irwin (10:07):
I have one more question on campus ministry and
then we'll get to the book.
Let's say a congregation in acollege town feels called and
moved to plant a newcongregation on its local
college campus.
For that new congregation to bemost effective at what the Lord
creates the church to be and doin the world, how might a
Church of Christ congregation ona college campus be a little
(10:31):
different from the olderplanting congregation?
Casey Coston (10:33):
Cary Newhoff is just a leadership guy.
He helps leaders, christianleaders, and he was talking
about this recently and so Ithought this was helpful.
He talked about how olderchurches choose methods over
mission, and so they had amission and they used methods to
reach.
(10:54):
You know, help, you know,fulfill that mission.
New churches reverse this.
They say, yeah, we now have anew mission.
We have a new mission to reachcollege students and we
understand that it's going totake different methods probably
to reach that new mission.
And so I think with that, achurch has to ask who do we want
(11:15):
to reach?
It's very possible that youknow churches, where they are,
just need to maybe change someof their methods in reaching the
community that's right aroundthem.
But again, being strategic andtrying to reach the next
generation might require, yeah,doing something, even a little
more bold and a little moreadaptive.
(11:35):
And so, you know, thinkingabout, you know, if we want to
reach college students, then oneof the things I struggled with
at Ole Miss a lot that it tookme a while to kind of process
was do I want to reach Church ofChrist students, do I want to
reach students from otherdenominations or do I just want
to reach pure lost, you know,seeking students that are a
little bit open, you know thataren't just completely turned
(11:56):
off but seekers, and so thatreally challenges you,
especially with the one youstart thinking.
You know, yeah, we want toreach our Church of Christ
students and some churches needto continue doing that.
But you know we have some greatChurch of Christ students here
but we have three or four, youknow that's it.
You know, in the Delawarecampus ministry.
So it makes more sense for usto turn our eyes towards seekers
(12:18):
on campus and we'll reach a fewstudents from other
denominations along the way.
But I've become more convictedin, you know, trying to find
those seekers that are open,that are interested, that you
know American students that kindof gave up on church a little
bit, but again they're openbecause they're trying to own
whatever faith they're going tohave while in college.
(12:39):
Or of course, internationalstudents who are just wide open
either, you know, at least, tofriendship, often to reading the
Bible.
You know, at least tofriendship, often to reading the
Bible, you know, because theywant to keep working on their
English.
And then I would just say, youknow, recognize, obviously, that
if your mission is collegestudents just recognize that
you're there for the studentsand that gets you out of
yourself.
And the big, the three L's thatwe like to use is listen, learn
(13:01):
and love.
So if you are listening,learning and just purely loving
those students, you're going tolove that because it's getting
you out of yourself.
You have a mission and thecollege students are going to
love it because they will havekind of a surrogate parent or a
surrogate grandparent, you knowsomebody that is loving them
away from home, and there'll bea heart connection there that
(13:23):
they won't even realize at thebeginning.
BT Irwin (13:25):
I've spent my entire life around ministers and one
thing I think will resonate withthem when they read your book
is that you struggle all thetime with feelings of inadequacy
and incompetence.
The title you gave your book isfine, but if you asked me, I
would have given it the titlewhy, Me Lord?
I'm pretty sure I don't havewhat it takes to do this.
So talk about how thosefeelings of inadequacy and
(13:47):
incompetence are such bigfactors in your ministry.
You know, looking back.
Casey Coston (13:52):
Yeah, I just kind of realized some things that
created a perfect storm for me.
The first one was, ironically,that my success in school and
music and engineering set me upfor a fall in ministry, because
I was a really good student.
(14:12):
My wife would say humblebraghere, but I was a good student
through high school, decentstudent in college.
Engineering was hard, but Istill did pretty good.
I played piano, I sang in thechoir, I played trombone.
I just excelled in all thesethings and though I really still
never really mastered thosethings, I still had good success
in them and one of the hardlessons I learned is that you
(14:34):
never can master ministry.
Ministry, like you were sayingabout elders, I mean the elders
that hired me were not theelders that asked me to resign.
The eldership had changed over15 years as well, and so it's
hard, yeah, as a minister, whenyou're trying to adapt to new
elders coming in and out.
You know as well.
So that set me up for this fallof struggling maybe more than
(15:00):
some would have with thisincompetence.
I think being a firstgeneration minister plays a big
part of this.
You know, maybe we talked aboutthis last time too, but you
know I just, there are someimplicit things, there is some
intuition.
If you're a second generationminister, you've seen your
parents or grandparents,somebody, do this and you kind
of know what it's like.
And I think being a firstgeneration minister presents,
(15:22):
you know, some of its ownchallenges, because you're
trying, you're actually maybehaving to figure out a few more
things on your own and myparents were very supportive but
they just, you know, weren't inministry life, you know.
In that way, I think anotherthing that I identify is just
that I'm a Barnabas, so I liketo encourage people and I like
to be encouraged, and at bestI'm a Barnabas but at worst I'm
(15:47):
a people pleaser.
And so, man, just you know, andI was able to please people, my
teachers and my parents, in myacademics and in my music life
and in my engineering life, andI had pretty good social
connections, you know, in thecampus ministry at Arkansas.
But, man, just by the time Igot into ministry, it was like
at any one time someone was nodoubt unhappy with me, whether
(16:09):
it was an elder or a churchmember or a student, and my wife
would say, I know she'd amenthat, yeah, she was unhappy with
me sometimes Because you'regoing to make somebody unhappy
and we'll talk more about familyand ministry.
But so my success set me up forthe fall being a Barnabas slash
(16:30):
, people pleaser, set me up forthis.
And then just the suffering thatcame in 2006, that we'll talk
about a little bit more, foreverchanged.
You know how I would doministry and that suffering
plunged us and me into just.
You know there was no spin youcould put on that to make it
look like I was doing great.
(16:50):
You know, in ministry at thattime you know juggling my wife's
health and a lot of things likethat.
So, man, just trying to leaninto you know you really think
Paul is crazy saying for whenI'm weak, then I'm strong until
you've lived it.
And then you have to realize,ok, I am weak in this moment
until you've lived it.
(17:10):
And then you have to realize,okay, I am weak in this moment,
I cannot do this.
But this is going to force meto lean on God and surrender to
God in ways that I've just beentrying to wing it.
You know I've been trying to bea cool, professional minister
and that's not working, you know.
So I'm going to have to justaccept the weakness in this
moment and trust God to bringthe strength.
And yeah, the more I can justaccept my incompetence, the
(17:33):
easier it is to heal, the easierit is to be made competent and
to let God use me further downthe road.
BT Irwin (17:41):
My dad was a people pleaser and he was very good at
it and it burned him out.
So he fell out of ministry whenhe was 53 years old and it took
him a couple of years to getback into it again.
I'm a people pleaser, just likehim.
I reckon a lot of people whoget into ministry are natural
people pleasers.
(18:01):
But then you add on the extraweight of feeling like if I'm
not pleasing people then I'm notreally loving them in the Jesus
way.
So if they don't feel lovedthey may not believe in Jesus.
So that adds the pressure ofthe eternal salvation of souls
and witnessing for the Lord towhat may just be normal people
(18:27):
pleasing.
How have you I don't want touse the word mastered that, but
how?
Over 20 plus years of learningthat you're a people pleaser in
ministry?
How do you deal with that, um?
Or how do you discern when isthe time to please people and
when can I let that go?
Casey Coston (18:51):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, the great discernmentenvironment for me is solitude,
and I know that doesn't, youknow, come naturally.
Even though I'm an introvert, Iwould say solitude has not
particularly come natural for mebecause ministry you kind of
get addicted to ministry and youkind of just get addicted to
(19:12):
doing, and you know, doingevents and we'll talk more about
that as well.
But I think, even as anintrovert just trying to okay,
I'm probably not a diagnosedmanic, but I can just feel that
manic-ness in my life.
Sometimes, especially at thestart of a semester in campus
(19:32):
ministry, there's just so muchto do, meeting students, so I
have to do things that settle mysoul and settle my heart and
settle my mind and that solitudefor me and I've gotten decent
now.
At most weeks on Monday I gointo the UD library and I just
have some solitude and sometimesit's to work on a message, but
(19:52):
a lot of times it's just to readand journal and think and pray
and just do things that allow meto look back on a week and go
yeah, I was trying too hard toplease somebody there and I
didn't need to do that.
Or I'm trying to anticipatesome people pleasing coming up
in this week and I get to okay.
So I try and anticipate it andtry and be ready and say, okay,
(20:15):
I don't have to bend overbackwards.
You know, in this situation I'mgoing to say what I need to say
and then I just need to leave italone and if they take it,
great, if they don't, hey, I gotto trust God, you know, in
these situations.
So therapy has been a big help,with solitude as well, I've had
seasons where I do a littlemore therapy than others.
But I love that cognitivebehavioral therapy and I like
(20:36):
using cognitive behavioraltheology as well, because you
have to get some things settledin your mind just about you know
the first John three, the loveof God being lavished on us,
that we should be calledchildren of God.
I am a child of God and nothingI go and do today is going to
change that and so having thatidentity.
(20:57):
But you've got to make sure youknow that verse and that you've
had some prayer time and quiettime with God so that that's
deep down in your soul, so thatyou're ready to deal with the
winds that are going to blowaround you trying to work with
students and churches.
BT Irwin (21:11):
I know a Church of Christ minister that if I said
his name most people who listento this would know him and know
who I'm talking about and he foryears has gone to see a
counselor every month as regularmaintenance and he advises
every minister he knows get acounselor and see your counselor
every month.
Regular maintenance, and headvises every minister he knows
get a counselor and see yourcounselor every month.
(21:33):
It's good maintenance.
You reminded me of a story youtold in the book about a
particular I believe it was astudent who was part of your
campus ministry and it soundslike this student may have had a
leadership role, was aChristian in the first place
when he came to the universityand got involved in student
(21:55):
ministry and there was perhapsdisagreement and conflict there
and you struggled and wrestledover the course of a long period
of time to I'll say please himand work with him and eventually
the relationship, I think itcame apart.
Knowing what you know now abouthow you handled that situation
(22:18):
with that particular student whoyou loved and you wanted to
please and you wanted to workwith him, but it didn't work out
, what would you do different ifyou saw yourself walking into
another situation similar tothat one?
Casey Coston (22:29):
I was probably in some denial that I was competent
enough to figure that out withthis student without more help.
And I think I should have, youknow, had some proactive
conversations with this studentand an elder or two, you know,
and we got together because hewas a local student, so I mean
(22:51):
he knew that he was part of thechurch family there in Oxford.
He wasn't, like you know, astudent coming from another city
, so he had a lot of ties inOxford and I think I just should
have been more proactive withhim and drawing some others in
to try and help us haveconversations, like being a
ministry couple, you know,because he cared, he cared a lot
(23:11):
and he just had different ideasand ways of going about it than
I, you know, thought made senseto me or that I was comfortable
doing.
And so trying to figure out waysto equip him or empower him or
to help us find somebody elsewho could do that if I wasn't
able, you know, to be the onewho could fulfill that vision.
And I'll say I got to have aconversation with him after I
(23:36):
wrote the book because I wantedhim to know it was in there and
I think a lot of what he wastrying to do that we'll talk
about some more is he was veryattraction focused.
He was looking for events, hewas looking for things that
would draw students, and I couldjust now, looking back, I can
just tell that my soul was morefocused on trying to disciple a
few students, and so we haddifferent visions for
(23:56):
accomplishing the same goal andwe just, I needed to draw in
some more helpers, you know, tohelp us figure out how to have
those conversations sooner.
BT Irwin (24:05):
My dad I mentioned.
He was in ministry for almost50 years and I asked him to do a
podcast with me after heretired so I could get him to
talk about all the things thatthe folks in his congregations
were not likely to know aboutwhat it was like to minister to
them.
In particular, I wanted toexpose people in the pews to how
(24:25):
their minister's ministryaffects his family.
I was part of that in a veryintimate way.
My dad, I can tell you, feltthis constant tug of war between
the attention the church neededfrom him, and sometimes
demanded from him, and theattention he wanted to give to
his three kids, including me andhis wife.
(24:45):
So I was really glad that youdevoted so much of your book to
the effect that your family hason your ministry and the effect
that your ministry has on yourfamily.
What do you want to share aboutthat here?
Casey Coston (24:57):
Three big things happen that I talk about in the
book.
Number one I mentioned 2006,.
Tracy's appendix ruptured whileshe was pregnant with our first
born Miles.
Miles came six weeks early andhe was great.
He was a little small but hegrew and everything about him
was fine.
But Tracy's body just paid theprice for a ruptured appendix.
We would, of course, learn ofcourse we didn't know at the
(25:21):
time, but we would learn thatshe became infertile from that.
So then I talked about thedesire to have more kids, and we
went through the IVF process totry and have more kids Huge,
you know, big thing trying tojuggle, you know, bringing new
life into the world.
While doing ministry, we triedIVF several times.
(25:41):
So you know, from 2006 to 2014was really hard and if you can
do the math, that's eight years.
Eight years is a long time forlife to be really hard.
And I've got Tracy in the bookthat I would love for the wives
and moms to read, her writingthis note to dear Maggie and
(26:02):
Moses, because she wrote thislove letter to them before they
were ever born, because Tracyand I were struggling with how
the future was going to look.
And then the third thing wasjust me having my struggle with
the elders from 2017 to 2019.
So all these things were just,you know, compounded, you know,
(26:23):
on us as you talked about thegrief earlier.
As you talked about the griefearlier.
But one good thing that I'vealways remembered how I saw God
at work in this is all thesuffering.
Kept my ministry ambition incheck Because I had that.
I had that ministry ambition.
I wanted to be out more.
I wanted to meet with morestudents.
I wanted to stay out late.
I mean I'm not a super late guybut I would want to stay out
(26:46):
some with students.
But there was especially 2006 to2014, even later, with, you
know, twins.
I needed to get home.
I wanted to be home to be withthe kids at bedtime or to help
trace out because you know she Imean she was in the hospital
for three months, you know, backin 2006.
I stayed with her.
We had people helping take careof miles.
(27:08):
Tracy's mom took care of Milesat first and then church folks
started helping, you know, takecare of Miles.
So we didn't even see Milesmuch the first three months of
his life.
And so just just so many issues, you know, for us there.
But it did all it.
God did use that to kind ofhelp keep me in balance so that
I didn't get out of balance withthe ministry stuff becoming too
(27:28):
much.
And so one of the greatchallenges it's still cropped up
today.
You know I thought of it forlast year, so last year's Campus
for Christ conference in Troy,Alabama.
I'm like texting my wife on aSaturday night because she's
dealing with some things and I'mtexting her.
And that Saturday night is whenthe board surprised me with the
(27:52):
kind of the LifetimeAchievement Award.
That's one of the biggesthonors you get in campus
ministry, the Stephen EcksteinLifetime Achievement Award.
So I've been like texting mywife she's struggling and I go
up on stage, you know, surprisedto receive the biggest award.
You know that we give you knowfor campus ministers recognized
to receive the biggest award.
You know that we give you knowfor campus ministers.
(28:12):
And again I'm in that tension,I'm in that tug of war because
that's and I've just for themost part learned to accept man,
that's just the way it is.
You know, there's just going tobe a tension until the day we
die, or at least until we retire, hopefully maybe not the day we
die with, you know, family andministry.
BT Irwin (28:28):
That's important for ministers to understand.
It's important for churches tounderstand too.
So I appreciate you for weavingthat very thick, colorful
thread through your story.
The tension at the heart of thebook I mentioned it, I think
really draws our focus to a bigquestion hanging over our
congregations now in our part ofthe world, here in the United
(28:52):
States, and that tension isbetween the way Jesus makes
disciples and the way we do it,the way we do church in the
United States.
As you grew in your ministry,you noticed and you bring this
out in the book how Jesus makesdisciples a very few close
relationships at a time.
He's not trying to get peopleto agree with certain
(29:13):
information.
You can do that maybe in oneconversation but in the Bible we
see Jesus living a life andcalling people to imitate that
life, and they can only do thatby living with him over a long
period of time.
The Great Commission is not toget people to agree with a few
(29:35):
abstract points of doctrine.
It is to invite them toparticipate in an intense,
ongoing sharing of life by whichthey come to imitate the life
of Jesus.
And that requires intimacy andit requires time, and those two
things are not what you aredoing when you're giving a
15-minute talk to 100 people.
(29:56):
So that might discipleship theJesus way and you show this in
the book is a Christian invitingmaybe three people to come
along and learn by doing so.
Here's the tension again.
When our churches hire ministers, they pay them real money.
That is often one of thebiggest line items in the church
(30:18):
budget.
So there's this pressure forthe number of dollars that go to
a minister to generate numbersthat justify that expense.
So maybe disciple-makinghappens three people at a time,
but three disciples does notseem like a good return for the
investment that a congregationmakes in a minister.
So, given a choice, thecongregation might rather see
(30:41):
300 people at an event thanthree people quietly growing
alongside the minister overseveral years.
So the pressure is on for theminister to get the big numbers
that justify what it costs topay him.
And I think your book hits onthis point again and again and
again.
Would you like to talk aboutthat?
Casey Coston (30:59):
Milton Jones old book Discipling the Multiplying
Ministry.
I think it's out of print butyou might can get it somewhere.
So I have these hisillustrations in the book.
So if you can imagine anepicenter and then the ripple
effects, these concentriccircles you've got Jesus with,
(31:20):
with John is, you know, thebeloved is his one, and then
you've got the three, peter,james and John, and then you've
got the 12,.
Okay, so those were what Miltonwere calling levels one, two
and three, and then levels four,five and six are the 70.
Jesus sends out the 70.
The 500 are with Jesus, youknow, after his resurrection,
(31:42):
and then the crowds, themultitudes for the feedings and
you know some other big events.
What I learned the hard way atOle Miss was just living in this
tension.
But what Milton said wasdiscipleship only occurs on
levels one, two and three.
So only when you're with oneperson or three people or 12
people can you disciple them inthat intimate way that you're
(32:04):
talking about.
That's going to move the needle, to help them become more like
Jesus.
And you know, I can see thatbeing a little bit of an
overstatement.
We hope, obviously, thatsermons and messages to you know
a few hundred people makes adifference.
But, yeah, week after week,teaching a Bible class to Ole
Miss students, I didn't feelnearly as effective as I did
(32:30):
having one conversation with onestudent at lunch about their
faith.
I felt like I was able to nudgethem and move the needle a
little bit more with the HolySpirit's help.
You know, in that oneconversation, some of it is, you
just don't know how 100 peopleare affected, you know by your
message and you kind of have totrust and let go.
But again, the one, two andthree levels are multiplication.
(32:53):
The four, five and six levelsare addition.
And so this is where, yeah, ourministries and I'm sure it's
not just American, but I thinkit's certainly true of a lot of
American churches If you buildit they'll come mentality from
Field of Dreams.
We just we tend to get excitedabout addition and we have to
(33:13):
find, you know, some ways to atleast balance out our addition
mentality with themultiplication mentality.
And so, again, the thing Iwrestle with in the book is if
Jesus is focused on 12.
Right, why am I not focused on12?
And so you can say, yeah, jesus, he launched out and had these
(33:35):
two or three days with the 5,000.
Okay, that's great.
That was an attraction thing.
There's a lot of teaching therebut there's food there.
But he didn't do feedings allthe time.
He did that big one, he didanother big one, you know, mark
tells us, and that was about itfor the big crowds.
But then you know some of thefamous interactions he has with
people the rich man, the womancaught in adultery.
(33:56):
These are one-on-one, intimateconversations that are
life-changing.
They are changing.
You know, the Samaritan woman,nicodemus, all these stories are
one-on-one conversations andthe disciples are listening in,
you know, probably to some ofthose conversations at least,
and so that's just the bigemphasis.
So for preachers, campusministers, youth ministers, I
(34:16):
would say, man, the next timeyou are getting hired or looking
, you need to have these kindsof conversations in the process
of being hired and say, look,we're going to do some four,
five and six stuff, but we havegot to have some one, two and
three stuff to make sure thatthere is some balance.
If for no other reason than formy soul, but I think it's also
(34:38):
for the kingdom, it is going tobenefit the kingdom if we are
multiplying and not just adding.
BT Irwin (34:44):
Well, I think the growth and spread of Church of
Christ congregations in theUnited States in the middle of
the 20th century is an exampleof a model, meeting a moment, in
other words, the way we didchurch back then bus ministries,
door knocking, church buildings, education programs, gospel
(35:05):
meetings, jewel Miller, filmstrips, vacation, bible school,
youth groups, that kind of stuff.
It fit how people behaved andthought in our culture in the
post-World War II years.
I don't think we've done enoughto consider how much what we
think of as church emerged fromthe culture to meet the culture
(35:26):
in that moment.
But the culture and the peopleare different now.
They're changing.
So those old models met amoment that is long gone.
You, being in campus ministry,are in the vanguard of those
meeting the new moment and theemerging generations making it.
What do Church of Christ folksneed to know about?
What is coming and how mightour local congregations meet
(35:49):
this new moment?
Casey Coston (35:53):
I think this is hard but good for us.
How much were those methodsfocused on attraction?
How much were they focused onfour, five and six?
Because what I would say for incollege ministry right now,
trying to meet the moment, thereally good thing amazing thing
is that discipleship reallydoesn't change.
Amazing thing is thatdiscipleship really doesn't
(36:17):
change.
Okay, discipleship is a meal orcoffee and conversation and
Bible study and prayer andsomeday, with, without force and
without manipulation orpressure, lovingly winning
somebody to Jesus.
And they're going to, they'regoing to give their lives to
Jesus at some point.
I don't think the discipleshipchanges very much from 1950, you
know, to 2025.
The attraction stuff that we'retrying to do, I think does
(36:40):
change.
And so you know, I thought Iknow about the Jewel Miller film
strips.
I'm not sure if I ever saw one,but right now, you know we have
the Chosen and people couldwatch the Chosen right now and
they could have watch parties intheir home, you know, for you
know pool season, and invitesome neighbors over or have a
small group you know thatwatches the Chosen together.
(37:00):
I think those are great.
You know attraction methods thatmight work, you know, for folks
now, students and outsiderstoday and seekers, let's let's
not forget.
I mean we can get caught up inour attraction stuff but really
what they need is a meal andsome love and some conversation
(37:21):
and we can be intentional inthose conversations.
We don't want to get stuck incasual conversations about up
here we're always talking aboutthe Eagles or the Phillies, and
I'm a Cardinal, I'm not wearingmy Cardinal shirt today, so we
can get stuck in the casualconversations.
We want to be intentional aboutmoving those conversations on
to spiritual things and tryingto get into biblical
conversations, churches ofChrist.
(37:41):
You know, we kind of were inthat season of certainty like,
hey, we knew the Bible, we knewwhat to do, and I think we've
learned some humility, certainlyover the years and I think we
can still be confident withoutthe arrogance.
But I think the humility to say, hey, this is going to take
faith for all of us.
It's going to take faith for usto leave the 99 and go find the
(38:04):
one.
But guess what that's what Godsaid life's going to be about is
faith.
So anything that is requiringsome faith, requiring some trust
, going to require some risk.
We have got to remember thatGod's probably involved in that.
I think my last, you know, pleawith everything that we've done
here at BT that I appreciate somuch.
This opportunity is again.
(38:26):
We need a new generation ofministers who are willing to be
made competent, which meansaccepting our incompetence.
We're going to have to bewilling to suffer a little bit,
which is why I put the sufferingin the book, because, as John
Mark Hicks told me, the book wasinspiring but sobering.
And even if you're not ready togo into ministry, I'd love for
(38:46):
you to read the book.
If you're a parent orgrandparent, give it to a young
person in your life.
Just encourage them to read thebook and see if God, you know,
wants to use them to help raiseup a new generation of ministers
.
BT Irwin (39:05):
Casey Koston is a seasoned campus minister with
more than two decades ofexperience on public university
campuses in the United States.
He is author of Made Competent,a story about life and ministry
now available from KarisPublishing.
You'll find a link in the shownotes.
Casey, I have to say I admireyou because you always go toward
what you fear that's one themein the book is that you feel
incompetent and not up to thechallenge, and yet you always go
(39:26):
forward in faith, and I admireyou for that.
Yeah, and last question herewhat does a blue hen say?
Meyer?
You for that, yeah, and and uh.
Casey Coston (39:33):
Last question here what does a blue hen say?
You know, I'm not sure I'veheard at a, at a football game,
what they say.
BT Irwin (39:39):
Uh, just, yeah, not sure there's a call there.
I mean I know, I know, I know,uh, I went to school at Harding.
Casey Coston (39:48):
So I know the Razorbacks right, it's, that's
right.
Woo pig, we can woo pig yeah.
BT Irwin (39:50):
There you go.
And what about Ole Miss?
Casey Coston (39:52):
Ole Miss is hottie totty.
Yeah, okay, all right.
BT Irwin (39:55):
All right, university of Delaware.
You need to get working on that.
You need to.
That's right.
You need a call.
Casey, thanks for being on theshow.
Thank you, brother.
We hope something you heard inthis episode encouraged,
enlightened Thanks.
Be to God and please pay itforward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Recommend and review itwherever you listen to your
(40:17):
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(40:37):
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(40:58):
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The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Audrey
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The Christian Chronicle podcastis written, directed, hosted
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(41:21):
Podcast your Voice Studios inthe Motor City, detroit,
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Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
We are bringing you the storiesshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
I'm BT Irwin.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
Have you ever heard someone talkabout imposter syndrome?
(00:28):
Imposter syndrome is apsychological phenomenon where a
person, being in a position ofgreat responsibility and or
trust, fears being exposed asincompetent and not up to the
job.
I dare say that, out of all theprofessionals who suffer from
imposter syndrome, ministers mayhave it the worst.
(00:51):
After all, we are often put inhigh visibility public positions
from which we are supposed tomodel the life of Jesus Christ
and teach others to do the same.
The stakes are measured ineternity.
Mature ministers, wiseministers, know that they are in
fact, incompetent for the highcalling of ministry, but they
(01:13):
also know that they are madecompetent by the grace, power
and working of God around in andthrough them.
As we read in the ApostlePaul's second letter to the
Church of Christ from Corinth,chapter 3, verse 5, quote not
that we are competent inourselves, but our competence
comes from God.
(01:34):
He has made us competent asministers of the new covenant.
End quote.
Our guest today is a ministerwho dared to write a book about
his imposter syndrome, that is,his feelings of inadequacy and
incompetence as a minister.
Casey Koston set out to be achemical engineer until his
life-changing encounter withRazorbacks for Christ, a Church
(01:55):
of Christ campus ministry at theUniversity of Arkansas sent him
in a whole new direction.
He eventually became a campusminister himself, first with
Rebels for Christ, a Church ofChrist campus ministry at Ole
Miss in Oxford, mississippi, andthen Blue Hens for Christ, a
Church of Christ, campusministry at the University of
(02:16):
Delaware in Newark, delaware.
He's been in campus ministryfor over 20 years now.
We had Casey on the show backin episode 72 to talk about
Campus for Christ, a nationalsupport and training ministry
for Church of Christcongregations and ministers who
want to reach the more than4,000 college campuses in the
United States.
Casey recently published hisfirst book, made Competent, a
(02:40):
story about life and ministry.
Casey, welcome back.
Thank you, brother, good to beback.
Oh, man, good to see you again.
So last time you were here backin episode 72, you were here
with Chris Buxton and the two ofyou were talking about Campus
for Christ Ministry to Church ofChrist Campus Ministries.
That conversation awakened meto a mission field that is white
(03:04):
, with harvest on more than4,000 college campuses in the
United States.
And then, when I read your book, I found myself marveling at
the scope and size of what I canonly call a campus ministry
parallel universe that existsalongside the mainstream Church
of Christ community and culture,the mainstream Church of Christ
(03:25):
community and culture.
It's like there's a whole otherChurch of Christ world that has
been right there all along, butI haven't seen it until I met
you.
Casey Coston (03:30):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Thanks for describing it thatway.
I think, as I said in the book,we're trying to take away some
of the secrecy with what we do.
We've got a long legacy incampus ministry, I mean
practically.
You know, we understand thereare very few campus ministers
and campus ministries comparedto youth ministers and preachers
(03:50):
, you know, and children'sministers.
Maybe, I don't know, maybewe're comparable to children's
ministers.
You know, we're just, we're asmall group in general but yeah,
we think we have a big impactbecause of the strategic
location that we are, you know,on the college campus.
I love that one of myapprentices former apprentices,
claire at Ole Miss.
(04:11):
She went to her first Campusfor Christ conference when she
was with us there at Ole Missand I remember her at the
conference saying where has thisbeen all my life?
Yeah, and she was a Hardingstudent and she had had a great
experience at Harding and Ithink that is a good tension for
us with this parallel universething is, I had a really good
(04:34):
experience with the campusministry at Arkansas, did
engineering, but then I feltlike God was calling me into
ministry.
So I went to Abilene Christianand so I had a great state, you
know public universityexperience.
At Arkansas I had a great, youknow, christian university
experience at Abilene Christian.
But the thing that you know Iwrote about was that I don't
remember ACU contextualizing myMDiv at any in any way, you know
(04:59):
, for campus ministry, and so bythe time I was leaving I wasn't
even looking for campusministry jobs.
I'd kind of forgotten, you know, about that calling
specifically for campus and ofcourse God still got me there,
you know, to Ole Miss.
So I think this we have apotential for a great
partnership, you know, betweenthe public university campus
(05:20):
ministries, because you knowthey sent me to ACU and I know
others go there.
Others go to our Christianschools for training, you know,
after their campus ministryexperience.
And just one thing that weprobably did in episode 72 that
I know everybody remembers, butI wanted to remind us that you
know one of the great thingsthat has occurred is that Chris
is now teaching a campusministry course at Harding.
(05:41):
And so if you're listening andyou know parents, you know ask,
you know encourage your kids tothink about taking the campus
ministry course just to see whatit's like at Harding.
And then Chris is also withMilton Jones and some others
helped to develop a certificatein campus ministry at Lipscomb
for grads, you know, graduatestudents.
So we've begun to make someinroads there and we're really
(06:04):
thankful that the partnershiphas begun.
We just hope that'll continueso that the parallel universes
you know can kind of partneruniverse a little bit more.
BT Irwin (06:13):
Yeah, we'll link all those in the show notes so
people can go check them out.
We just had Matt Dabbs on theepisode just before this one.
He brought a lot of researchalong that showed how
congregations have life cycles,like people have life cycles,
and it is rare for acongregation to make it to 100
(06:33):
years.
Most of them make it to 60, 70,80, and that's it.
And the scary thing that Mattshowed us in that episode is
most Church of Christcongregations in the United
States formed in the middle ofthe 20th century, which means
they are reaching the naturalend of their lives.
He made the case forcongregations that are at
midlife or late life to startplanting churches now.
(06:56):
Make hay while the sun shines.
I don't presume that you agreewith Matt, but if you do, could
you make a strong case for whycollege campuses would be
fertile ground for those newchurch plants?
Casey Coston (07:08):
I think a really encouraging thing to say is that
this is happening on thecollege campus.
So, for example, the EncompassCampus Ministry in Athens, ohio,
at Ohio University, zach Wolfand his team there they planted
a campus ministry and then theyalso planted a church as
(07:28):
connected to that campusministry.
So a big shout out to ChrisBuxton's, ulife Consulting, but
also Kairos Church Planting andBe One, make One was involved in
that process.
And then we've got the WellCampus Ministry where Amy
Kendall-Wilson, my good friendand board member with me in
Campus for Christ, their campusministry in Arizona, kairos
(07:52):
helped them get Treco ChurchPlant started.
So they and they literally bothof these literally meet on
campus on Sundays and so it'sreally good to see that this is
happening.
It's good to see that, you know, a small group of maybe older,
wiser, mature church members areseeing hey, we want to go to
where the students are, we wantto be part of this.
(08:13):
And, with what you're saying, tohave more church plants, we
need more ministers and that wasjust a big reason that I wrote,
wrote the book is.
I wanted just to give people asnapshot.
My story is going to be anestablished ministry story,
although the longer I stay inDelaware, the more I'm becoming,
you know, a little moremissionary, like in planting in
(08:35):
some ways.
But we just we need moreministers for these plants, and
so we need to be strategic, justlike we were with our church
buildings, like the buildings webuilt in the 50s, 60s, 70s.
We were.
We were strategic with thoseand now we need to be strategic
in a new way perhaps, and, yeah,I think, think more about
either being really close to thecollege campus or just taking
(08:57):
advantage.
You know, campus ministrieshave registered student
organization status and so wecan reserve space on campus,
normally for free or prettycheap, so churches have a great
opportunity to be part of this.
One other thing you know withthis that I think is helpful is
just when we talk about beingstrategic and trying to get
(09:19):
churches, you know, to thinkabout this with us with what
Matt was saying.
Again, there could be certainlyanecdotes that don't all fall in
line with this, but in general,a few people, 18 and younger,
will own their faith before theygo to college.
A few people, after collegewill own their faith Like it'll
become theirs.
(09:39):
It'll become real.
It won't just be their parentsor their preachers anymore,
it'll be theirs.
But college ministry to meobviously biased, but I think it
would bear out is that is themajor time that young people own
their faith.
And where better to be thanwith them when they're trying to
figure out what they're goingto hold on to, what they're
(10:00):
going to let go of and kind ofform their own faith that we
hope will still be as vibrant?
But it might look a littledifferent and that's okay.
BT Irwin (10:07):
I have one more question on campus ministry and
then we'll get to the book.
Let's say a congregation in acollege town feels called and
moved to plant a newcongregation on its local
college campus.
For that new congregation to bemost effective at what the Lord
creates the church to be and doin the world, how might a
Church of Christ congregation ona college campus be a little
(10:31):
different from the olderplanting congregation?
Casey Coston (10:33):
Cary Newhoff is just a leadership guy.
He helps leaders, christianleaders, and he was talking
about this recently and so Ithought this was helpful.
He talked about how olderchurches choose methods over
mission, and so they had amission and they used methods to
reach.
(10:54):
You know, help, you know,fulfill that mission.
New churches reverse this.
They say, yeah, we now have anew mission.
We have a new mission to reachcollege students and we
understand that it's going totake different methods probably
to reach that new mission.
And so I think with that, achurch has to ask who do we want
(11:15):
to reach?
It's very possible that youknow churches, where they are,
just need to maybe change someof their methods in reaching the
community that's right aroundthem.
But again, being strategic andtrying to reach the next
generation might require, yeah,doing something, even a little
more bold and a little moreadaptive.
(11:35):
And so, you know, thinkingabout, you know, if we want to
reach college students, then oneof the things I struggled with
at Ole Miss a lot that it tookme a while to kind of process
was do I want to reach Church ofChrist students, do I want to
reach students from otherdenominations or do I just want
to reach pure lost, you know,seeking students that are a
little bit open, you know thataren't just completely turned
(11:56):
off but seekers, and so thatreally challenges you,
especially with the one youstart thinking.
You know, yeah, we want toreach our Church of Christ
students and some churches needto continue doing that.
But you know we have some greatChurch of Christ students here
but we have three or four, youknow that's it.
You know, in the Delawarecampus ministry.
So it makes more sense for usto turn our eyes towards seekers
(12:18):
on campus and we'll reach a fewstudents from other
denominations along the way.
But I've become more convictedin, you know, trying to find
those seekers that are open,that are interested, that you
know American students that kindof gave up on church a little
bit, but again they're openbecause they're trying to own
whatever faith they're going tohave while in college.
(12:39):
Or of course, internationalstudents who are just wide open
either, you know, at least, tofriendship, often to reading the
Bible.
You know, at least tofriendship, often to reading the
Bible, you know, because theywant to keep working on their
English.
And then I would just say, youknow, recognize, obviously, that
if your mission is collegestudents just recognize that
you're there for the studentsand that gets you out of
yourself.
And the big, the three L's thatwe like to use is listen, learn
(13:01):
and love.
So if you are listening,learning and just purely loving
those students, you're going tolove that because it's getting
you out of yourself.
You have a mission and thecollege students are going to
love it because they will havekind of a surrogate parent or a
surrogate grandparent, you knowsomebody that is loving them
away from home, and there'll bea heart connection there that
(13:23):
they won't even realize at thebeginning.
BT Irwin (13:25):
I've spent my entire life around ministers and one
thing I think will resonate withthem when they read your book
is that you struggle all thetime with feelings of inadequacy
and incompetence.
The title you gave your book isfine, but if you asked me, I
would have given it the titlewhy, Me Lord?
I'm pretty sure I don't havewhat it takes to do this.
So talk about how thosefeelings of inadequacy and
(13:47):
incompetence are such bigfactors in your ministry.
You know, looking back.
Casey Coston (13:52):
Yeah, I just kind of realized some things that
created a perfect storm for me.
The first one was, ironically,that my success in school and
music and engineering set me upfor a fall in ministry, because
I was a really good student.
(14:12):
My wife would say humblebraghere, but I was a good student
through high school, decentstudent in college.
Engineering was hard, but Istill did pretty good.
I played piano, I sang in thechoir, I played trombone.
I just excelled in all thesethings and though I really still
never really mastered thosethings, I still had good success
in them and one of the hardlessons I learned is that you
(14:34):
never can master ministry.
Ministry, like you were sayingabout elders, I mean the elders
that hired me were not theelders that asked me to resign.
The eldership had changed over15 years as well, and so it's
hard, yeah, as a minister, whenyou're trying to adapt to new
elders coming in and out.
You know as well.
So that set me up for this fallof struggling maybe more than
(15:00):
some would have with thisincompetence.
I think being a firstgeneration minister plays a big
part of this.
You know, maybe we talked aboutthis last time too, but you
know I just, there are someimplicit things, there is some
intuition.
If you're a second generationminister, you've seen your
parents or grandparents,somebody, do this and you kind
of know what it's like.
And I think being a firstgeneration minister presents,
(15:22):
you know, some of its ownchallenges, because you're
trying, you're actually maybehaving to figure out a few more
things on your own and myparents were very supportive but
they just, you know, weren't inministry life, you know.
In that way, I think anotherthing that I identify is just
that I'm a Barnabas, so I liketo encourage people and I like
to be encouraged, and at bestI'm a Barnabas but at worst I'm
(15:47):
a people pleaser.
And so, man, just you know, andI was able to please people, my
teachers and my parents, in myacademics and in my music life
and in my engineering life, andI had pretty good social
connections, you know, in thecampus ministry at Arkansas.
But, man, just by the time Igot into ministry, it was like
at any one time someone was nodoubt unhappy with me, whether
(16:09):
it was an elder or a churchmember or a student, and my wife
would say, I know she'd amenthat, yeah, she was unhappy with
me sometimes Because you'regoing to make somebody unhappy
and we'll talk more about familyand ministry.
But so my success set me up forthe fall being a Barnabas slash
(16:30):
, people pleaser, set me up forthis.
And then just the suffering thatcame in 2006, that we'll talk
about a little bit more, foreverchanged.
You know how I would doministry and that suffering
plunged us and me into just.
You know there was no spin youcould put on that to make it
look like I was doing great.
(16:50):
You know, in ministry at thattime you know juggling my wife's
health and a lot of things likethat.
So, man, just trying to leaninto you know you really think
Paul is crazy saying for whenI'm weak, then I'm strong until
you've lived it.
And then you have to realize,ok, I am weak in this moment
until you've lived it.
(17:10):
And then you have to realize,okay, I am weak in this moment,
I cannot do this.
But this is going to force meto lean on God and surrender to
God in ways that I've just beentrying to wing it.
You know I've been trying to bea cool, professional minister
and that's not working, you know.
So I'm going to have to justaccept the weakness in this
moment and trust God to bringthe strength.
And yeah, the more I can justaccept my incompetence, the
(17:33):
easier it is to heal, the easierit is to be made competent and
to let God use me further downthe road.
BT Irwin (17:41):
My dad was a people pleaser and he was very good at
it and it burned him out.
So he fell out of ministry whenhe was 53 years old and it took
him a couple of years to getback into it again.
I'm a people pleaser, just likehim.
I reckon a lot of people whoget into ministry are natural
people pleasers.
(18:01):
But then you add on the extraweight of feeling like if I'm
not pleasing people then I'm notreally loving them in the Jesus
way.
So if they don't feel lovedthey may not believe in Jesus.
So that adds the pressure ofthe eternal salvation of souls
and witnessing for the Lord towhat may just be normal people
(18:27):
pleasing.
How have you I don't want touse the word mastered that, but
how?
Over 20 plus years of learningthat you're a people pleaser in
ministry?
How do you deal with that, um?
Or how do you discern when isthe time to please people and
when can I let that go?
Casey Coston (18:51):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, the great discernmentenvironment for me is solitude,
and I know that doesn't, youknow, come naturally.
Even though I'm an introvert, Iwould say solitude has not
particularly come natural for mebecause ministry you kind of
get addicted to ministry and youkind of just get addicted to
(19:12):
doing, and you know, doingevents and we'll talk more about
that as well.
But I think, even as anintrovert just trying to okay,
I'm probably not a diagnosedmanic, but I can just feel that
manic-ness in my life.
Sometimes, especially at thestart of a semester in campus
(19:32):
ministry, there's just so muchto do, meeting students, so I
have to do things that settle mysoul and settle my heart and
settle my mind and that solitudefor me and I've gotten decent
now.
At most weeks on Monday I gointo the UD library and I just
have some solitude and sometimesit's to work on a message, but
(19:52):
a lot of times it's just to readand journal and think and pray
and just do things that allow meto look back on a week and go
yeah, I was trying too hard toplease somebody there and I
didn't need to do that.
Or I'm trying to anticipatesome people pleasing coming up
in this week and I get to okay.
So I try and anticipate it andtry and be ready and say, okay,
(20:15):
I don't have to bend overbackwards.
You know, in this situation I'mgoing to say what I need to say
and then I just need to leave italone and if they take it,
great, if they don't, hey, I gotto trust God, you know, in
these situations.
So therapy has been a big help,with solitude as well, I've had
seasons where I do a littlemore therapy than others.
But I love that cognitivebehavioral therapy and I like
(20:36):
using cognitive behavioraltheology as well, because you
have to get some things settledin your mind just about you know
the first John three, the loveof God being lavished on us,
that we should be calledchildren of God.
I am a child of God and nothingI go and do today is going to
change that and so having thatidentity.
(20:57):
But you've got to make sure youknow that verse and that you've
had some prayer time and quiettime with God so that that's
deep down in your soul, so thatyou're ready to deal with the
winds that are going to blowaround you trying to work with
students and churches.
BT Irwin (21:11):
I know a Church of Christ minister that if I said
his name most people who listento this would know him and know
who I'm talking about and he foryears has gone to see a
counselor every month as regularmaintenance and he advises
every minister he knows get acounselor and see your counselor
every month.
Regular maintenance, and headvises every minister he knows
get a counselor and see yourcounselor every month.
(21:33):
It's good maintenance.
You reminded me of a story youtold in the book about a
particular I believe it was astudent who was part of your
campus ministry and it soundslike this student may have had a
leadership role, was aChristian in the first place
when he came to the universityand got involved in student
(21:55):
ministry and there was perhapsdisagreement and conflict there
and you struggled and wrestledover the course of a long period
of time to I'll say please himand work with him and eventually
the relationship, I think itcame apart.
Knowing what you know now abouthow you handled that situation
(22:18):
with that particular student whoyou loved and you wanted to
please and you wanted to workwith him, but it didn't work out
, what would you do different ifyou saw yourself walking into
another situation similar tothat one?
Casey Coston (22:29):
I was probably in some denial that I was competent
enough to figure that out withthis student without more help.
And I think I should have, youknow, had some proactive
conversations with this studentand an elder or two, you know,
and we got together because hewas a local student, so I mean
(22:51):
he knew that he was part of thechurch family there in Oxford.
He wasn't, like you know, astudent coming from another city
, so he had a lot of ties inOxford and I think I just should
have been more proactive withhim and drawing some others in
to try and help us haveconversations, like being a
ministry couple, you know,because he cared, he cared a lot
(23:11):
and he just had different ideasand ways of going about it than
I, you know, thought made senseto me or that I was comfortable
doing.
And so trying to figure out waysto equip him or empower him or
to help us find somebody elsewho could do that if I wasn't
able, you know, to be the onewho could fulfill that vision.
And I'll say I got to have aconversation with him after I
(23:36):
wrote the book because I wantedhim to know it was in there and
I think a lot of what he wastrying to do that we'll talk
about some more is he was veryattraction focused.
He was looking for events, hewas looking for things that
would draw students, and I couldjust now, looking back, I can
just tell that my soul was morefocused on trying to disciple a
few students, and so we haddifferent visions for
(23:56):
accomplishing the same goal andwe just, I needed to draw in
some more helpers, you know, tohelp us figure out how to have
those conversations sooner.
BT Irwin (24:05):
My dad I mentioned.
He was in ministry for almost50 years and I asked him to do a
podcast with me after heretired so I could get him to
talk about all the things thatthe folks in his congregations
were not likely to know aboutwhat it was like to minister to
them.
In particular, I wanted toexpose people in the pews to how
(24:25):
their minister's ministryaffects his family.
I was part of that in a veryintimate way.
My dad, I can tell you, feltthis constant tug of war between
the attention the church neededfrom him, and sometimes
demanded from him, and theattention he wanted to give to
his three kids, including me andhis wife.
(24:45):
So I was really glad that youdevoted so much of your book to
the effect that your family hason your ministry and the effect
that your ministry has on yourfamily.
What do you want to share aboutthat here?
Casey Coston (24:57):
Three big things happen that I talk about in the
book.
Number one I mentioned 2006,.
Tracy's appendix ruptured whileshe was pregnant with our first
born Miles.
Miles came six weeks early andhe was great.
He was a little small but hegrew and everything about him
was fine.
But Tracy's body just paid theprice for a ruptured appendix.
We would, of course, learn ofcourse we didn't know at the
(25:21):
time, but we would learn thatshe became infertile from that.
So then I talked about thedesire to have more kids, and we
went through the IVF process totry and have more kids Huge,
you know, big thing trying tojuggle, you know, bringing new
life into the world.
While doing ministry, we triedIVF several times.
(25:41):
So you know, from 2006 to 2014was really hard and if you can
do the math, that's eight years.
Eight years is a long time forlife to be really hard.
And I've got Tracy in the bookthat I would love for the wives
and moms to read, her writingthis note to dear Maggie and
(26:02):
Moses, because she wrote thislove letter to them before they
were ever born, because Tracyand I were struggling with how
the future was going to look.
And then the third thing wasjust me having my struggle with
the elders from 2017 to 2019.
So all these things were just,you know, compounded, you know,
(26:23):
on us as you talked about thegrief earlier.
As you talked about the griefearlier.
But one good thing that I'vealways remembered how I saw God
at work in this is all thesuffering.
Kept my ministry ambition incheck Because I had that.
I had that ministry ambition.
I wanted to be out more.
I wanted to meet with morestudents.
I wanted to stay out late.
I mean I'm not a super late guybut I would want to stay out
(26:46):
some with students.
But there was especially 2006 to2014, even later, with, you
know, twins.
I needed to get home.
I wanted to be home to be withthe kids at bedtime or to help
trace out because you know she Imean she was in the hospital
for three months, you know, backin 2006.
I stayed with her.
We had people helping take careof miles.
(27:08):
Tracy's mom took care of Milesat first and then church folks
started helping, you know, takecare of Miles.
So we didn't even see Milesmuch the first three months of
his life.
And so just just so many issues, you know, for us there.
But it did all it.
God did use that to kind ofhelp keep me in balance so that
I didn't get out of balance withthe ministry stuff becoming too
(27:28):
much.
And so one of the greatchallenges it's still cropped up
today.
You know I thought of it forlast year, so last year's Campus
for Christ conference in Troy,Alabama.
I'm like texting my wife on aSaturday night because she's
dealing with some things and I'mtexting her.
And that Saturday night is whenthe board surprised me with the
(27:52):
kind of the LifetimeAchievement Award.
That's one of the biggesthonors you get in campus
ministry, the Stephen EcksteinLifetime Achievement Award.
So I've been like texting mywife she's struggling and I go
up on stage, you know, surprisedto receive the biggest award.
You know that we give you knowfor campus ministers recognized
to receive the biggest award.
You know that we give you knowfor campus ministers.
(28:12):
And again I'm in that tension,I'm in that tug of war because
that's and I've just for themost part learned to accept man,
that's just the way it is.
You know, there's just going tobe a tension until the day we
die, or at least until we retire, hopefully maybe not the day we
die with, you know, family andministry.
BT Irwin (28:28):
That's important for ministers to understand.
It's important for churches tounderstand too.
So I appreciate you for weavingthat very thick, colorful
thread through your story.
The tension at the heart of thebook I mentioned it, I think
really draws our focus to a bigquestion hanging over our
congregations now in our part ofthe world, here in the United
(28:52):
States, and that tension isbetween the way Jesus makes
disciples and the way we do it,the way we do church in the
United States.
As you grew in your ministry,you noticed and you bring this
out in the book how Jesus makesdisciples a very few close
relationships at a time.
He's not trying to get peopleto agree with certain
(29:13):
information.
You can do that maybe in oneconversation but in the Bible we
see Jesus living a life andcalling people to imitate that
life, and they can only do thatby living with him over a long
period of time.
The Great Commission is not toget people to agree with a few
(29:35):
abstract points of doctrine.
It is to invite them toparticipate in an intense,
ongoing sharing of life by whichthey come to imitate the life
of Jesus.
And that requires intimacy andit requires time, and those two
things are not what you aredoing when you're giving a
15-minute talk to 100 people.
(29:56):
So that might discipleship theJesus way and you show this in
the book is a Christian invitingmaybe three people to come
along and learn by doing so.
Here's the tension again.
When our churches hire ministers, they pay them real money.
That is often one of thebiggest line items in the church
(30:18):
budget.
So there's this pressure forthe number of dollars that go to
a minister to generate numbersthat justify that expense.
So maybe disciple-makinghappens three people at a time,
but three disciples does notseem like a good return for the
investment that a congregationmakes in a minister.
So, given a choice, thecongregation might rather see
(30:41):
300 people at an event thanthree people quietly growing
alongside the minister overseveral years.
So the pressure is on for theminister to get the big numbers
that justify what it costs topay him.
And I think your book hits onthis point again and again and
again.
Would you like to talk aboutthat?
Casey Coston (30:59):
Milton Jones old book Discipling the Multiplying
Ministry.
I think it's out of print butyou might can get it somewhere.
So I have these hisillustrations in the book.
So if you can imagine anepicenter and then the ripple
effects, these concentriccircles you've got Jesus with,
(31:20):
with John is, you know, thebeloved is his one, and then
you've got the three, peter,james and John, and then you've
got the 12,.
Okay, so those were what Miltonwere calling levels one, two
and three, and then levels four,five and six are the 70.
Jesus sends out the 70.
The 500 are with Jesus, youknow, after his resurrection,
(31:42):
and then the crowds, themultitudes for the feedings and
you know some other big events.
What I learned the hard way atOle Miss was just living in this
tension.
But what Milton said wasdiscipleship only occurs on
levels one, two and three.
So only when you're with oneperson or three people or 12
people can you disciple them inthat intimate way that you're
(32:04):
talking about.
That's going to move the needle, to help them become more like
Jesus.
And you know, I can see thatbeing a little bit of an
overstatement.
We hope, obviously, thatsermons and messages to you know
a few hundred people makes adifference.
But, yeah, week after week,teaching a Bible class to Ole
Miss students, I didn't feelnearly as effective as I did
(32:30):
having one conversation with onestudent at lunch about their
faith.
I felt like I was able to nudgethem and move the needle a
little bit more with the HolySpirit's help.
You know, in that oneconversation, some of it is, you
just don't know how 100 peopleare affected, you know by your
message and you kind of have totrust and let go.
But again, the one, two andthree levels are multiplication.
(32:53):
The four, five and six levelsare addition.
And so this is where, yeah, ourministries and I'm sure it's
not just American, but I thinkit's certainly true of a lot of
American churches If you buildit they'll come mentality from
Field of Dreams.
We just we tend to get excitedabout addition and we have to
(33:13):
find, you know, some ways to atleast balance out our addition
mentality with themultiplication mentality.
And so, again, the thing Iwrestle with in the book is if
Jesus is focused on 12.
Right, why am I not focused on12?
And so you can say, yeah, jesus, he launched out and had these
(33:35):
two or three days with the 5,000.
Okay, that's great.
That was an attraction thing.
There's a lot of teaching therebut there's food there.
But he didn't do feedings allthe time.
He did that big one, he didanother big one, you know, mark
tells us, and that was about itfor the big crowds.
But then you know some of thefamous interactions he has with
people the rich man, the womancaught in adultery.
(33:56):
These are one-on-one, intimateconversations that are
life-changing.
They are changing.
You know, the Samaritan woman,nicodemus, all these stories are
one-on-one conversations andthe disciples are listening in,
you know, probably to some ofthose conversations at least,
and so that's just the bigemphasis.
So for preachers, campusministers, youth ministers, I
(34:16):
would say, man, the next timeyou are getting hired or looking
, you need to have these kindsof conversations in the process
of being hired and say, look,we're going to do some four,
five and six stuff, but we havegot to have some one, two and
three stuff to make sure thatthere is some balance.
If for no other reason than formy soul, but I think it's also
(34:38):
for the kingdom, it is going tobenefit the kingdom if we are
multiplying and not just adding.
BT Irwin (34:44):
Well, I think the growth and spread of Church of
Christ congregations in theUnited States in the middle of
the 20th century is an exampleof a model, meeting a moment, in
other words, the way we didchurch back then bus ministries,
door knocking, church buildings, education programs, gospel
(35:05):
meetings, jewel Miller, filmstrips, vacation, bible school,
youth groups, that kind of stuff.
It fit how people behaved andthought in our culture in the
post-World War II years.
I don't think we've done enoughto consider how much what we
think of as church emerged fromthe culture to meet the culture
(35:26):
in that moment.
But the culture and the peopleare different now.
They're changing.
So those old models met amoment that is long gone.
You, being in campus ministry,are in the vanguard of those
meeting the new moment and theemerging generations making it.
What do Church of Christ folksneed to know about?
What is coming and how mightour local congregations meet
(35:49):
this new moment?
Casey Coston (35:53):
I think this is hard but good for us.
How much were those methodsfocused on attraction?
How much were they focused onfour, five and six?
Because what I would say for incollege ministry right now,
trying to meet the moment, thereally good thing amazing thing
is that discipleship reallydoesn't change.
Amazing thing is thatdiscipleship really doesn't
(36:17):
change.
Okay, discipleship is a meal orcoffee and conversation and
Bible study and prayer andsomeday, with, without force and
without manipulation orpressure, lovingly winning
somebody to Jesus.
And they're going to, they'regoing to give their lives to
Jesus at some point.
I don't think the discipleshipchanges very much from 1950, you
know, to 2025.
The attraction stuff that we'retrying to do, I think does
(36:40):
change.
And so you know, I thought Iknow about the Jewel Miller film
strips.
I'm not sure if I ever saw one,but right now, you know we have
the Chosen and people couldwatch the Chosen right now and
they could have watch parties intheir home, you know, for you
know pool season, and invitesome neighbors over or have a
small group you know thatwatches the Chosen together.
(37:00):
I think those are great.
You know attraction methods thatmight work, you know, for folks
now, students and outsiderstoday and seekers, let's let's
not forget.
I mean we can get caught up inour attraction stuff but really
what they need is a meal andsome love and some conversation
(37:21):
and we can be intentional inthose conversations.
We don't want to get stuck incasual conversations about up
here we're always talking aboutthe Eagles or the Phillies, and
I'm a Cardinal, I'm not wearingmy Cardinal shirt today, so we
can get stuck in the casualconversations.
We want to be intentional aboutmoving those conversations on
to spiritual things and tryingto get into biblical
conversations, churches ofChrist.
(37:41):
You know, we kind of were inthat season of certainty like,
hey, we knew the Bible, we knewwhat to do, and I think we've
learned some humility, certainlyover the years and I think we
can still be confident withoutthe arrogance.
But I think the humility to say, hey, this is going to take
faith for all of us.
It's going to take faith for usto leave the 99 and go find the
(38:04):
one.
But guess what that's what Godsaid life's going to be about is
faith.
So anything that is requiringsome faith, requiring some trust
, going to require some risk.
We have got to remember thatGod's probably involved in that.
I think my last, you know, pleawith everything that we've done
here at BT that I appreciate somuch.
This opportunity is again.
(38:26):
We need a new generation ofministers who are willing to be
made competent, which meansaccepting our incompetence.
We're going to have to bewilling to suffer a little bit,
which is why I put the sufferingin the book, because, as John
Mark Hicks told me, the book wasinspiring but sobering.
And even if you're not ready togo into ministry, I'd love for
(38:46):
you to read the book.
If you're a parent orgrandparent, give it to a young
person in your life.
Just encourage them to read thebook and see if God, you know,
wants to use them to help raiseup a new generation of ministers
.
BT Irwin (39:05):
Casey Koston is a seasoned campus minister with
more than two decades ofexperience on public university
campuses in the United States.
He is author of Made Competent,a story about life and ministry
now available from KarisPublishing.
You'll find a link in the shownotes.
Casey, I have to say I admireyou because you always go toward
what you fear that's one themein the book is that you feel
incompetent and not up to thechallenge, and yet you always go
(39:26):
forward in faith, and I admireyou for that.
Yeah, and last question herewhat does a blue hen say?
Meyer?
You for that, yeah, and and uh.
Casey Coston (39:33):
Last question here what does a blue hen say?
You know, I'm not sure I'veheard at a, at a football game,
what they say.
BT Irwin (39:39):
Uh, just, yeah, not sure there's a call there.
I mean I know, I know, I know,uh, I went to school at Harding.
Casey Coston (39:48):
So I know the Razorbacks right, it's, that's
right.
Woo pig, we can woo pig yeah.
BT Irwin (39:50):
There you go.
And what about Ole Miss?
Casey Coston (39:52):
Ole Miss is hottie totty.
Yeah, okay, all right.
BT Irwin (39:55):
All right, university of Delaware.
You need to get working on that.
You need to.
That's right.
You need a call.
Casey, thanks for being on theshow.
Thank you, brother.
We hope something you heard inthis episode encouraged,
enlightened Thanks.
Be to God and please pay itforward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Recommend and review itwherever you listen to your
(40:17):
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Your subscription,recommendation and review help
us reach more people.
Please send your comments,ideas and suggestions to podcast
at christianchronicleorg.
And don't forget our ministryto inform and inspire Christians
and congregations around theworld is a non-profit ministry
(40:37):
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So if you like the show and youwant to keep it going and make
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Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg slash
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The Christian Chronicle podcastis a production of the Christian
Chronicle Incor.
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The Christian Chronicle podcastis a production of the
Christian Chronicle Incorporated, informing and inspiring Church
(40:58):
of Christ congregations,members and ministries around
the world since 1943.
The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Audrey
Jackson, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and executive director
and CEO Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis written, directed, hosted
and edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan at
(41:21):
Podcast your Voice Studios inthe Motor City, detroit,
michigan, usa.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com