May 30, 2025 • 49 mins
For Christians who are Black, life in the Church of Christ in the United States is an experience that is formed by the experience of being Black. In other words, each human being encounters life (and church) through her or his experiences. Likewise, the world (and often the church) perceives human beings through the assumptions that form about certain groups of people.
Barron Jones (host of the Unfiltered Crossroads Podcast and the preaching team at Holgate Street Church of Christ in Seattle, Washington) talks about why being Black in the Church of Christ in the United States is a unique experience that often leaves Christians who are Black feeling isolation and pressure among their own brothers and sisters in Christ. Jones makes the case that a relentless pursuit of the gospel and the truth will well serve all Christians now.
Donate to support this ministry of "information and inspiration" at christianchronicle.org/donate
Send your comments, ideas, and suggestions to podcast@christianchronicle.org
Attend the 16th Annual Brotherhood of Men Conference this October 23 - 25 in Dallas, Texas. Click ewhiteministries.com to learn more and register.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
BT Irwin (00:04):
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
We're bringing you the storiesshaping Church of Christ,
congregations and members aroundthe world.
I'm BT Irwin.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
The biblical story of God andthe people of God is a story of
(00:24):
constant movement.
God calls the patriarchsAbraham, isaac and Jacob to
wander as aliens among people inplaces that are not their own.
The children of Israel sojournas slaves in Egypt for hundreds
of years.
Later, god wanders in thewilderness with Israel for two
generations until they come tothe promised land.
But once there, they enjoybeing settled and secure for
(00:48):
only about a hundred years outof their entire history in that
land.
The rest of the time they areharassed and often displaced,
until Assyria and Babylon carrythem off into exile.
Thus begins the Jewish diasporaof that time.
It is during this diaspora thatJesus is born and lives his
public life as a homelessitinerant preacher with quote no
(01:09):
place to lay his head.
End quote.
And our ancestors in theChristian faith often found
themselves persecuted and pushedout, living as pilgrims and
refugees on the margins of Romansociety.
In sum, the Bible portrays Godand God's people as outsiders In
the Bible.
This mostly keeps them far fromcultural, economic and
(01:30):
political power.
But Jesus reveals a kind ofpower that is greater than any
power we are familiar with onearth.
The greatest display andexpression of that power is
Jesus' death on a cross, a formof execution that Rome invented
for foreigners and slaves.
And what is this power thatJesus reveals?
(01:50):
It is sacrificial,self-emptying love that arises
from complete faith and hope inGod.
Jesus is able and willing tosacrifice himself for sinful
humanity because he is certainthat God will vindicate him by
raising him from the dead.
This complete confidence in Godis what emboldens Jesus to
(02:11):
speak the truth in love, anaction that gets him into
trouble with everyone, includinghis own family and friends.
I am convinced that becauseJesus does not join any faction,
all factions come to fear himand must conspire to put him to
death.
No faction can control orneutralize Jesus, so all
factions have no choice but togang up on him.
(02:31):
Jesus doesn't set out toantagonize anyone, but to simply
speak the truth in love, andthat doesn't make sense to
anyone who grows up in a worldthat teaches us to pick sides
and fight for our own side,right or wrong.
Today, we will hear from anapprentice and student of Jesus
Christ who is calling us to picksides and fight for our own
side, right or wrong.
Today, we will hear from anapprentice and student of Jesus
Christ who is calling us tofollow the example of Jesus that
is speaking the truth in love,an act that will often make us
(02:53):
exiles and outsiders in aculture that insists that we
must pick sides and fight, fight, fight.
Barron Jones is a native ofLouisiana and Mississippi, a
graduate of Lipscomb Universityin Nashville, tennessee, and a
member of the Holgate StreetChurch of Christ in Seattle,
washington, where he is part ofthe preaching team.
He hosts a YouTube channel thatexplores race, religion and
(03:15):
politics.
You know bland stuff.
He recently published aChristian Chronicle op-ed Stuck
in the Middle with Jesus, whyBlack Christians in America Feel
Alienated from Cultural Campson Either Side and what Comes
Next.
Barron Jones (03:27):
He's here with us now, brother Barron, welcome BT
good morning, afternoon orwhatever time it is for our
listeners who are listening tous and watching Glad to be here,
Excited to be a part of thisdiscussion today.
BT Irwin (03:40):
I will say that's an enthusiastic greeting for a guy
who's up very early on the WestCoast.
Barron Jones (03:44):
I will say that's an enthusiastic greeting for a
guy who's up very early.
On the West Coast, things getstarted sometimes earlier than
we planned, but hey, I'm happyto be here and I think it's
going to be a fruitfuldiscussion.
So thanks for having me.
BT Irwin (03:52):
You're wise enough to know that if you put your name
on a column like yours, somepeople are going to disagree
strongly or they may even saymean things about you.
What happened that you decidedthat any harsh reactions would
not be as bad as not publishingyour column?
What made you do it?
Barron Jones (04:09):
If we're going to be spiritual leaders, right.
And if we're going to representsomeone who himself was killed
for what he said, right.
I mean, they killed Jesus forwhat he did, but it was really a
lot for what he said.
You know, I just don't think weshould be overly concerned if
someone's going to say somethingmean about a column that I
(04:33):
submitted for publication.
Like, I think, in comparison tosome of the things that Jesus
and the disciples suffered,that's not even, I think, worthy
of, of complaining about.
You know, I think that thereare far too many expressions of
Christianity today where we areoverly concerned about the
(04:53):
response.
And it's interesting, like youknow, you and I have a similar
background as far as upbringing,right, and one of the things
they always told us was likedon't be afraid to stand up for
what you believe in the world,and you go to school and you be
strong and you, you know,whatever the consequences.
But it's like we haven't takenthat same mindset when it comes
to dealing with the brotherhood,dealing with my brothers who I
(05:17):
sit in the pew, with churchesthat I preach to, and
brotherhood politics andbrotherhood politics.
I just think if you're going tobe a spiritual leader, you
simply can't have too muchconcern for your reputation,
right?
It doesn't mean that youintentionally would stain your
reputation.
But my concern in speaking andwriting and preaching as a
(05:39):
spiritual leader cannot be totry to say things and say them
in such a way that my primaryconcern is to keep you know,
keep people happy or to keepthem comfortable.
You know, I wrote the piecebecause I think silence is a
much worse offense than actuallysharing how we truly believe
(06:01):
within a context of love.
And I have to check my heart,bt.
You know, I don't want to speakout of bitterness, I don't want
to a context of love.
Now, I have to check my heart,bt.
I don't want to speak out ofbitterness, I don't want to
speak out of rebellion.
I think there's a contrariannature in me, so I have to make
sure I'm not speaking just to becontrarian, but I truly believe
that some of these things haveto be shared and said, not
necessarily speaking for allblack people, but as a black
(06:23):
minister of the gospel speakingthings that could potentially
help a lot of black people whocan identify with some of the
things that they were said andfind themselves in similar
situations, if that's helpful.
BT Irwin (06:33):
From the column it sounds like and you just
mentioned this here you havepersonal experience feeling like
an outsider from both what youcall the quote black First
Movement end quote.
And quote white Christianspaces end quote.
What would you be willing toshare about those experiences of
feeling like an outsider ineach?
Barron Jones (06:54):
I was raised in a household that taught and lived
out not just taught but livedout the idea we are all of God's
children.
My parents modeled that we hadfellowship with black, that we
had fellowship with blackchurches.
We had fellowship withpredominantly white churches.
We were taught to love, acceptand serve everyone in the
kingdom of God, and I still holdon to that.
(07:17):
And I mention that becausesometimes, when people read a
single article like this fromsomeone that they do not know,
they start making assumptionsabout how I would view Christian
unity or do I even stillbelieve in cross-racial
fellowship within the church.
So I want to make it clear Ideeply believe those things and
(07:37):
I want to cut someone off at thecut from even trying to say
that reading something that theydon't like and maybe assuming
that someone doesn't like andmaybe assuming that someone
doesn't believe in unity or thatwe shouldn't deal with these
racial tensions.
So what I can to your questionspecifically, though, you know
what I can say about the BlackFirst movement is that I
identify with a lot of thecritiques that they have about
(07:59):
society and the dominant societyand what the dominance of white
society has done to blackpeople historically in this
country, including religion, andhow vestiges of that still
remain today.
We're not saying it's the same,but that things still remain
that have been built into theDNA of America that we need to
(08:20):
be talking about and continuingto work through those of us who
are believers in the spirit oflove advancing the kingdom of
God as we talk about thosethings.
So you know, I find adisconnect with the movement
because, again, I believe inworking with my white brothers
and sisters.
I believe in equal and sharedleadership, working together and
we need to value each other'sinput and all of those things.
(08:40):
And that's kind of where we welose our brothers in the Black
First movement, where they'rereally not that concerned with
unity and working together andfostering that relationship with
our white brothers and sisters.
I'll be honest with you, BT.
I will say this I am a littlehesitant to share personal
(09:00):
experiences, not because I'mafraid to share them or ashamed
to share them, but because Ihave found that personal
experiences as anecdotes this ismy observation often don't move
the conversation forward.
In fact, what I find typicallyhappens is people hear your
(09:23):
examples and then theyimmediately go looking for holes
in what you say, Instead ofactually letting what you say
resonate with them, that theremight be an experience of truth
outside of their experience,because if they have not
experienced it, how could itactually be true?
How could it actually be true?
Right?
And so telling a story, I think, oftentimes does the opposite
(09:47):
of what we would hope that itwould do and people can kind of
dismiss it as an exception.
See, it happened to you insteadof what I'm claiming as a small
(10:08):
narrative, as part of a largerpicture that is continuing to
happen.
Right, If I, as your brother inChrist, say this is I write
this article, BT, and I say thisis how I'm feeling, like that
should be enough.
I shouldn't need to really giveyou any stories or histories
behind it to buttress it or tomake it stand up for your
approval.
Because I am your brother inChrist, why would you think I
needed to give you anythingbeyond what I say, unless you,
(10:31):
from the get-go, question mymotives, questioning my
intentions, which I know a lotof people do, and most people
who read the article don't knowme.
But you do know the faith thatI profess and a lot of people
have spoken in their churches.
You've allowed me to preach inyour pulpits and I give a lesson
(10:53):
and you say amen.
But then if I say somethingabout race relations in the
church and in America, all of asudden now I need personal
examples for you to buy intowhat I'm saying I find that a
lot of times when we tellstories, what people will do is
they'll go and they'll look,they'll dismiss eight stories,
(11:14):
They'll dismiss nine storiesthat black people tell, They'll
go find one black person whowill support their cause.
So they will dismiss the nine,They'll dismiss the eight and
they'll go find one and they'llsay see, what you're saying
can't be true, because Johnny,Mary, Sue, over here, they don't
have that experience.
But what about the eight thatjust told you that all your,
that your brothers and sistersin Christ, they just told you
they have that experience.
I have very low expectationsthat any experiences that I
(11:36):
could share, unfortunately,would move the conversation.
The way that I think us justtrusting each other, the way
that I think us just trustingeach other, loving each other
and taking for granted that yourintentions and that your
actions are truly genuine,that's what's going to move the
conversation forward, and thenwe can share stories to say, wow
(11:59):
, brother, I'm sorry that thathappened to you and that's going
to help.
You know that's going to helpme be reflective and think, but
I think we have to.
We're kind of getting the cartbefore the horse.
We want to lead withexperiences and we really have
to lead with.
What type of relationship doblack Christians and white
Christians have in churches ofChrist that can set the stage so
(12:19):
that when black Christians talkabout their experiences in your
churches, you don't run and tryto find other black people that
you don't even know on Fox Newsor CNN that are going to say
something that you agree with.
Meanwhile, the black personthat is in your church that you
allow to preach in your pulpit,you would discount what they say
(12:41):
.
Now, back in 2015, I was livingin San Antonio, Texas in 2015 at
that time and I was arrested inJanuary of 2015 for driving
while intoxicated in San AntonioTexas and was arrested, put in
the back of a patrol car, takendown to the station, taken down
(13:01):
to the station and they took myblood by force as a part of the
arrest process.
Well, BT, what that officer didnot know.
White officer and I bring uprace only because we're talking
about policing in America.
So if anyone doesn't think raceis a part of that.
We got to get into history tounderstand facts right.
(13:22):
I don't know the gentlemanpersonally.
All I know is he was white, Iwas black, I got taken down to
jail.
But what he did not know aboutme is that I was a church boy,
BT.
He had arrested a church boy.
He had put in the report hesmelled a moderate amount of
intoxicants on my person, but hedid not know, BT, that I was a
(13:45):
church boy.
Ironically, at the time, BT, Iwas out driving Uber, so I was
actually taking drunk people offof the streets at the time I
was driving for Uber.
at the time when he pulled meover and arrested me he put in
the report I smelled a moderateamount of intoxicants on his
person.
Now you and I have similarupbringings, bt.
So we're a good Church ofChrist boy.
(14:06):
So we were raised.
We were told not only do younot get drunk, bt, you don't
touch the stuff.
That's the environment that Iwas raised in.
So I have never consumedalcohol in my life.
He didn't know that To him Iwas just another Black person.
I feel that he thought he couldtake down and he's going to
find something or something willstick.
(14:27):
Well, they took my blood.
So obviously, when the bloodwork came back, the charges were
dropped because there was noalcohol in my system.
But between the time that I wasarrested and the time that my
blood work came back and thecase was dropped and word of my
arrest got out, to my dismay Ifound that some of my white
(14:48):
brothers and sisters, almostfrom the jump, either took the
word of the police officer orquestioned why something like
that would happen to me in asituation like that and, brother
, that hurt because I'vepreached in your pulpits.
(15:09):
You've known me since I was yeahigh.
You know my family, so whydon't I get the benefit of the
doubt?
Even in our judicial systemit's innocent until proven
guilty.
So what should it be within thechurch, where we have all been
baptized into the body of Christand have all been made to drink
of that one spirit?
I'm going to get the preacherto quote scripture.
(15:31):
But what should it be in thechurch if in the court of law
it's innocent until provenguilty?
Now, I don't know the whitepolice officer's heart.
I don't know why some of mywhite brothers and sisters felt
led to believe him quickly orwere open to the idea more than
(15:52):
they believed me, you know.
And race is one of those trickythings, because we're not in a
time where people are openlyespousing racism, even though I
see that actually growing,unfortunately.
But I'm not here to judgeanybody's heart or intentions.
I can only say, as a blackChristian who has moved in many
white dominated spaces in ourcountry and in religion and in a
(16:16):
law enforcement system that hashistorically been designed to
entrap black people, in asituation where an officer said
he smelled alcohol on my person,which I know was not true in
the moment that he said it, hecalls himself a professional and
the blood work came back in myfavor.
It's hurtful that I had to hearthose things expressed.
(16:41):
So that's just one experience.
I had to hear those thingsexpressed, so that's just one
experience.
This is one I could tell others.
I've had guns pulled on medriving a car.
I've never done anything.
You talk to the black people inyour churches.
BT Irwin (16:57):
They have stories, but are those stories really going
to move you?
Yeah, one of the things thatI've heard from some of my
friends in churches that I'veattended still attend to this
day are very similar to what yousay.
It's that I don't understandwhy people that have worshiped
(17:20):
with me for 10, 20, 30 yearsI've entrusted me with their to
be an elder or to preach, or toshepherd them or have entrusted
me with their kids and youthgroup.
I don't understand why theydon't believe me when I tell
them certain things about myexperience and that's been
(17:45):
something that I've heard, alament that I've heard from many
people over the years.
I don't know why I'm so trustedin some ways, but when I talk
about my experience as a personof color, that's when my
brothers and sisters don'tbelieve me anymore.
Barron Jones (18:02):
We as black Christians can get access and
approval in white dominatedspaces, when what we are saying
is in line with what thosespaces agree with and that is
the gospel, right.
And so you know, this is where,like in the black first
(18:23):
movement, they would say yeah,you know those white people at
those churches, they only likeyou because you're saying what
they want you to say.
Well, I mean, I'm saying what Iwant to say, which is the
gospel.
I believe in the gospel.
I believe in furthering thekingdom of God on Earth.
I believe in the message ofJesus of Nazareth that came as
(18:50):
king of the Jews, light unto theGentiles, light unto us all,
and that he is calling us towork together and to be together
.
So it's not just that blackChristians and white dominated
spaces are saying things thatwhite people like to hear.
We are saying things that webelieve about the gospel that
happen to coincide with whatwhite brothers and sisters also
believe about the gospel.
When black people start to saythings that are not supported by
those spaces, that we find thealienation that comes with that,
(19:11):
if we actually choose to sayanything, because we know that
saying something is going tojeopardize the relationship that
has been built based upon thethings that we do agree on,
which is the gospel.
Well, someone says, well, youhave to bring up race.
Well, race relations is part ofthe gospel.
(19:32):
It's just not a part of thegospel that is welcomed openly.
I think we would hope that wehave built up a relationship so
that when we do say something,it does not jeopardize the 15,
20, 25 years, the leadership,the preaching, all of the things
(19:53):
that we have done together.
We would hope that when we saysomething that would come across
to some of our white brothersand sisters as like, why would
they say that?
Or why would you, outside oftheir experience or knowledge or
grasp of what the truth mightbe, how could our take on this
one issue denigrate, jeopardize,diminish, do anything to what
(20:22):
we to all of these other areas?
So this is why a lot of blackChristians really won't say that
much.
My white brothers and sisterswho are church leaders, just I
would respectfully say to youdirectly it's not about how you
feel about the article, it'sabout the black people in your
(20:42):
spaces, in your churches.
What do they think about what Iwrote and do they feel safe
enough to say what that brotherwrote in the article Amen
Resonates with me.
They're not condemning yourchurches to hell.
They're in your churches,they're in fellowship with you.
BT Irwin (21:02):
I want to point out one thing about your column that
is refreshing to me.
It's when you say that thisisn't a quote call to centrism
or neutrality, end quote.
And I like that because I feelthat many times, when we talk
about being moderate or standingon the middle ground, what we
really mean is that we avoidtalking about things on which we
(21:23):
disagree.
We pretend that ourdisagreements don't exist, just
for the sake of getting along.
And you're explicit that you'renot calling for this.
You're calling for what youcall quote prophetic clarity,
end quote.
What?
Barron Jones (21:37):
do you mean by that?
We want a church that'stheologically sound,
theologically healthy,spiritually healthy.
So you know, mainstream doesn'tmean correct, neutral doesn't
mean righteous and centristdoesn't mean prophetic.
So I think we're going to beserious about the truth.
The truth has to be my startingpoint, right, and unity should
(21:57):
come after.
I don't even think unity shouldbe the starting point.
The starting point should betruth, and then let's let us
unite around what the truth is.
Now, finding out what truth isand discerning truth is a
lifelong endeavor.
It's not a place where we getto and that we hold and maintain
, but it is something that weare constantly doing.
Until God transitions us toanother existence.
(22:20):
We are always searching anddiscerning what the truth is.
In a very general sense, Iunderstand that there are major
truths that don't change, butlife is very dynamic and there's
a lot of crevices and things inlife that we got to figure out
and we're always on that journey.
So I would say, you know,prophetic being prophetic is
(22:45):
that we don't walk away fromtension.
We expect tension, andprophetic clarity calls us to
speak truth even when it'suncomfortable, even when it
jeopardizes theological comfort.
Comfortable even when itjeopardizes theological comfort.
(23:07):
Prophetic clarity meansspeaking when it jeopardizes
political alignment, financialsecurity, long-held assumptions,
right.
That's what I mean by propheticclarity and that's why it's
dangerous to some people,because prophetic clarity can
disrupt.
It challenges, it exposes whatwe've always allowed to remain
(23:28):
unexamined, unchallenged in ourchurches, especially when it
comes to power, influence andrace.
BT Irwin (23:37):
I think I want to clear something up here for
people listening, because thismay not be clear to some folks.
When a lot of people in ourpews hear prophet, they think of
one who predicts the future.
When you talk about propheticclarity or speaking with
prophetic voice, I think youmean more than that.
So could you just for the sakeof everyone listening here, when
(24:00):
you talk about what it means tospeak prophetically, what is it
that you're saying?
Barron Jones (24:05):
Probably for our people.
You know, preaching would be amuch more term that, a term that
would much more easily genderup the word picture ideas that
we want here.
We want someone who is bringingforth the word of God as it
should be for the people of Godin a particular time and place,
(24:26):
shaped by the God who is givingthem the word.
BT Irwin (24:29):
I think of prophecy as telling the truth and
reflecting the truth about God,and also reflecting to people
the truth about themselves, soholding up a mirror to people so
that they can see themselvesmore truly.
You talk about the gospel topeople so that they can see
themselves more truly.
You talk about the gospel andthat's where I think some people
in the pews may not track withyou anymore, because they say
(24:50):
well, what does the color ofsomeone's skin have to do with
choosing Jesus?
What does the color ofsomeone's skin have to do with
the gospel?
So could you connect those dotsfor people that still don't
follow where you're leading?
Barron Jones (25:05):
I think part of the difficulty in embracing what
I'm trying to convey by an idealike prophetic clarity actually
stems from how churches ofChrist have historically
understood spirituality right.
So you know, over time ourfocus has often been less about
transforming ourselves, bt, andmore about correcting others.
(25:31):
So we pour we've poured a lotof enormous energy into learning
doctrines, convincing otherswhy what they might be saying or
doing might not be inaccordance with scripture right.
We have spent far less timeexamining how we need to grow,
(25:52):
how we need to repent, how weourselves need to be transformed
, and I think that is more kindof the original spirit of the
early participants of themovement.
Like it began with the desireto restore something that they
felt like was more Christlikeand more biblical.
But somewhere along the waythat vision, I think, shifted
(26:15):
and it became about defendingpositions, pointing out flaws in
others.
So now this is why I think westruggle with an idea of
prophetic clarity, because itputs us under the spotlight.
It puts our churches under thespotlight, it puts our theology
under the spotlight and we, Idon't think, really know what to
do with that.
As a fellowship we have notreally cultivated the muscle for
(26:38):
repentance.
I hate to say it, but we canrepent of that.
Let us repent of notcultivating the muscle for
repentance.
We've not practiced saying wewere wrong.
We need to grow, we need to dobetter, because somehow we think
it jeopardizes the work thatwe've done up until this point.
(26:58):
So we've got to get.
We've got to get beyond that.
This is exactly what propheticclarity leads to.
Got to get beyond that.
This is exactly what propheticclarity leads to.
It leads to repentance.
Bt a church that can join handstogether, black brothers and
white brothers, and say werepent.
It's going to require, I think,major spiritual and
(27:20):
psychological shift that we haveto be a part of, because we've
just been in the habit oftelling everybody else what to
do.
But I think, if we were to behonest with ourselves, we have a
lot of work that we need to do,especially when it comes to
racism, unity and love acrossracial lines.
The goal is not condemnation.
BT Irwin (27:35):
When you were talking about our history, our heritage,
our tradition in the Church ofChrist.
Some people don't like thatword, but one of the things I
was thinking about is that weare a very individual.
We are individualistic when itcomes to the gospel, and so when
(27:58):
you were talking about how wewould be outward focused, what
everyone else is maybe doingwrong, that we're doing right,
and we go into a defensiveposture, I was thinking we
interpret that through anindividual level.
So an example would be well, Igo to the right church that does
(28:20):
the right things and doesn't dothe wrong things, so I'm safe,
I'm okay because I'm a member ofthat church and I don't drink,
I don't smoke, I don't swear, Idon't do drugs, I don't have sex
outside of marriage Us goodChurch of Christ kids.
(28:40):
We know all the don'ts.
And so as an individual and I'mspeaking from my own experience
I know I'm in the right churchthat does the right things and
doesn't do the wrong things.
I know that I don't do thosethings that I'm not supposed to
do and I'm working every day togrow in my relationship with
Jesus.
So I'm reading my Bible, I'mspending time in prayer, I'm
(29:02):
giving money when I go to churchand then, when this idea of
racism comes into the picture, Ican see and I'm now speaking
from experience I can tell youhow it was confusing to me A
long time ago because I thought,well, I'm at the right church,
I do the right things, not thewrong.
(29:22):
Well, I'm at the right church,I do the right things, not the
wrong things, I do all the rightthings.
And, frankly, where I grew up,I I don't know any black people.
So, as an individual, I thinkthis is not something that I
need to think about or careabout at all.
It just has nothing to do withme, because I'm trying to get to
(29:42):
heaven and I'm doing all thesethings to get to heaven, and I'm
doing all these things to getto heaven and I'm avoiding these
things.
And so I feel like a lot of ourpeople in the pews interpret
life through thatindividualistic lens, and I
think that's where a lot of usget stuck is that when we start
talking about the things thatyou've brought forward in your
(30:04):
column and I've had whiteChristians say this to me many,
many times in life that hasnothing to do with me, that
doesn't concern me at all,that's not a problem for me, and
what they mean is I'm not aracist, right?
That's not a problem for mebecause they're thinking about
themselves as one individualtrying to get to heaven and
(30:27):
they're like I've never had theopportunity to be racist or
that's just not something that Ifeel in my heart, so it's, it's
no concern of mine, baron, whydo you keep bringing this up to
me?
You see, I'm fine, I'm good,I'm going to heaven by the grace
of God.
Why are you insisting on makingthis something that we need, a
(30:49):
problem that we need to dealwith?
Barron Jones (30:51):
It's always interesting how the apostolic
church handled the Grecianwidows in Acts 6.
Can you imagine some of theHebraic, jerusalem, judea
(31:14):
centered Christians who saidthey got nothing to do with me?
That's them.
They got a problem with howthings are playing out.
I ain't got nothing to do withme because I'm good, me and God,
I've been baptized in Christ,I'm saved, I'm going to heaven.
So, like some of the thingsthat we say right and that
individualistic mindset that youtalked about, can we imagine
what that would sound like whenyou have the Grecian widows who
(31:34):
say, hey, hold up, hold up, holdup.
We don't feel like things arefair.
We ain't about to leave thebody of Christ, we ain't.
We're not accusing leadership,we're just saying, hey, you know
, let's talk about this.
Take a look at it.
And I can easily see someChristians, some of the ones who
were on the Hebraic side, beingvery dismissive, saying it has
(31:56):
nothing to do with them, thatthey ain't got nothing against.
No, grecian widow Some of myfavorite friends are Grecian
widows.
I mean, we can go with all ofthe sayings that we hear, right,
okay.
But the leaders said, oh, no,okay, we're going to take this
complaint seriously.
I love the fact that thereseemed to be like oh, because
(32:16):
the Grecian widows said it, theyare believable.
We're going to look into this,we're going to follow up, we're
going to come up with a solution.
The people that are going to beexecuting the solution seem to
be of Greek influence themselves.
So to someone who feels likethis discussion doesn't concern
them, I would just say go backand read that text and ask
(32:39):
yourself if your response towhat black brothers and sisters
in Christ are sharing with you,if your response would fit
within the context of how theapostolic leadership responded
in Act six.
And look at what they did.
Yeah, they didn't accuse theGrecian widows of being victims
living in the past, having anaxe to grind a chip on their
(33:03):
shoulder, past having an ax togrind a chip on their shoulder.
They took their complaintsseriously and they came up with
a solution together.
BT Irwin (33:09):
I just going through the feedback that came in after
we published your column, Ifound a retort that is common
pretty much every time wepublish something like this, and
that is being black or whiteshould not matter at all.
Quote for you are all one inChrist Jesus.
End quote.
Galatians, chapter three, verse28.
That comes up almost every time.
As an apprentice and student ofJesus Christ and a member of
(33:33):
his body, why does being blackmatter to you?
Nonetheless, why do you hope itmatters to brothers and sisters
in Christ who are not black?
Barron Jones (33:42):
Wow, you know, being black or white should not
matter.
Right, that's the, that's thebrother.
You know we don't live in theshould nots, brother.
I'm sorry, like I'm trying, Igot to live in this real world
out here.
Being black or white should notmatter.
(34:03):
I understand that statement tobe aspirational.
It reflects the kind of worldthat we hope to live in.
But I am trying to live in theworld that is Brother BT, and
the world that is, especially inAmerica, is a world where race
(34:28):
matters.
It has always mattered inAmerica and it's still.
All we're saying is it stilldoes.
That's all that column issaying is that in white
dominated Christian spaces, racestill matters Doesn't mean that
y'all are not Christians,doesn't mean that we won't
follow your leadership.
Don't make the article say whatit's not saying.
We're saying race still mattersDoesn't mean that y'all are not
Christians, doesn't mean thatwe won't follow your leadership.
Don't make the article say whatit's not saying.
We're saying race still matters.
So we aspire, as Dr King said,aspire to be judged by the
(34:53):
content of our.
We aspire to have a country andto have a church where being
black or white should not matter.
But because you say that, youthink that that's how it is.
No-transcript.
I pray for that vision, I serveand I preach and I minister
(35:19):
towards that vision, which iswhat bringing about the kingdom
of God on Earth and in this,this society, where race should
not matter, should be part ofthat kingdom that we hope and
that we're praying, that we'reworking, is coming, you know,
but what I cannot do is pretendthat that the vision has already
(35:39):
arrived, because black peoplein this country, in this society
, we have inherited A countryand a church, bt, where race
(36:03):
determines more than justperception.
It can affect our dignity, oursafety, our opportunities, our
access to justice and, yes, evenour standing in spiritual and
religious places.
And the church, unfortunately,is not separate from society.
The church exists withinsociety, which means the effects
(36:28):
of race and racism are noterased just because we walk
through the church doors.
Brother and some white peoplewoke up one day and said they
don't see color.
That does not change reality,because a few white people in
our churches are saying thatBlack Christians know this, we
know this, we lived it right.
We experience what it feelslike to walk into these spaces
(36:53):
and wonder if we're being seen,being fully heard, being fully
embraced Right, and it's it'scomplex, very complex situation.
So you know, to your question,yes, my blackness matters.
It doesn't matter because Iwant it to matter.
It matters because the Americansystem was built on making it
(37:18):
matter.
That's history.
And you know we get fromhousing to education to law
enforcement, health care,economics, transportation,
religion.
You can't name me a segment ofAmerican society where race
didn't play a part in thehistory of this country.
It has been baked into the DNAof this country.
(37:39):
That was not the doing of Blackpeople.
Your Black brothers and sistersdidn't do that.
It was the doing of those whocreated those systems.
And all we're saying is maybethe work of undoing all of that
is undone, maybe that work isunfinished and we need to
continue to openly and willinglybe a part of that work.
(38:02):
Now I will say this because youknow people will use Galatians
man.
People make Galatians 3.28, dog.
They make that verse do somework.
I mean, they make that verse dosome heavy lifting.
Right?
The verse gets thrown around alot of times in these type of
conversations as if it cancels,as if that verse cancels out the
(38:25):
reality of what people livethrough.
Now the verse is beautiful andit's powerful.
It talks about unity.
But I have to say this thatverse, beachy, did not stop
(38:47):
White slaveholders frombrutalizing black people.
That verse did not stop JimCrow from being instituted.
That verse did not stop 250years of slavery plus 100 years
of Jim Crow, mass incarceration,police brutality and the war
against black users of drugs.
That verse didn't stop all ofthat.
(39:10):
It did not stop blackChristians from being excluded
from white congregations and noteven to want black Christians
to read the Bible for fear thatthey would get a hold of a few
passages about justice.
Galatians 3.28 didn't stop allof that.
It did not stop the silence ofthe church during lynchings or
the resistance to integration.
So I would respectfully say, asa minister of the gospel and as
(39:33):
one that is always looking atscripture and how to exegete it
and apply it, let us not misuseGalatians 3.28 to shut down
black voices like these Grecianwidows who all we're saying is
sometimes it doesn't seem fair,that's all we're saying.
(39:54):
People, we get a littlereckless in using that verse
because we just don't like whatsomebody wrote or what they're
saying about a certain issue.
So, yeah, you know, my blacknessmatters because God created me
in it.
It's part of my humanity.
It's part of my story but, moreimportantly, it affects how I am
seen in America and even in myown church, if I'm, if I'm
(40:19):
treated well or mistreated ormisunderstood or understood
properly and all of it matters.
Right, and I long for the day.
May God speed the day when myblackness does not carry the
social and political andreligious consequences that it
carries, does not carry thesocial and political and
religious consequences that itcarries.
May God speed the day when Ican walk into any space, not
(40:46):
only in America but in ourchurches, and be received fully
in my humanity without havingthe second guess.
If my race is affecting how I'mbeing perceived or people have
made judgments about mepolitically just because of the
color of my skin.
Before I even open up my mouthto say God bless you, brother
and Jesus, you already have anidea about who I am.
May God speed the day.
But that day, brother, is nothere yet in 2025.
I don't believe it is and I'masking my white brothers and
(41:08):
sisters to join me in the circleof repentance so that God can
bring about that day.
BT Irwin (41:13):
I kind of want to give you an opportunity to bring it
back to the gospel again,because you are speaking to us
as a minister of the gospel ofJesus Christ and you're speaking
to all of us here in the UnitedStates, regardless of the color
of our skin and the culturefrom which we come.
We have listeners in 120countries around the world, so
there are Christians everywherein the world listening to you, a
(41:34):
minister of the gospel of JesusChrist, and I want to give you
the opportunity to tie yourcolumn and everything you've
said today back to what is thegood news for humanity.
What is it that we are calledto do and respond to together as
believers in Jesus Christ?
Yeah.
Barron Jones (41:54):
You're asking me to extend the invitation when
you ask a question like thatbecause that's what we're
bringing all together and sayyou know, god is doing a great
thing, he's bringing aboutsomething great.
But, ben, are you thinking withGalatians 3.28?
Yeah, you know, I think.
Look at Paul man and just theway he, the way he ministered,
(42:16):
was the way he ministered inattempting to bring together the
polarizing ends of theJew-Gentile relationship
Supports your interpretation ofGalatians 3.28, which is not all
the same or alike, but workingtogether within one body.
(42:41):
That's the hard way to do it.
That's why he had so manyissues and problems to deal with
in his churches.
Right so the Acts 15 councilthat was the easy part.
We often think that that was adifficult decision that they had
to make.
Do the Gentiles have to becircumcised?
That came together and had ameeting man.
(43:03):
Church meetings sometimes ascontiguous as they can get.
We all can have church meetingsand make decisions.
They had a church meeting andmake decisions and they had the
Holy Spirit on their side in avery strong way, which I believe
we haven't.
Holy Spirit on their side in avery strong way, which I believe
we haven't, but they had themin a very strong way.
They made a church decision.
Then you see Paul now having tolive in the reality of that
(43:29):
decision.
That's the letters and that'sthe problems that he had to deal
with.
That was the hard way to do.
It is to try to let Jews beJews and the Gentiles to
basically be Gentiles, with afew rules they had to follow and
in the King James Version saysfare ye.
Well, if you do this, theydidn't, man, that was very
(43:50):
aspirational.
They had a lot.
Paul had a lot of problems.
Paul was living, creatingtheology in the moment, trying
to keep that thing together.
So I think I'll just say youknow, I'm not even riffing on
what you said, just saying, yeah, man, if you look at the life
of Paul, the way that he triedto live out the gospel in his
churches only proved, proves, Ithink, your interpretation of
(44:13):
Galatians 328, which is that Godis not trying to make us alike.
He wants us to be together andbe ourselves, which is different
and that is a high calling, forvery different reasons for us
in 2025 than for them, but inmany respects no less difficult.
(44:34):
We stand perpetually on theverge of monumental change
because all it takes is twobrothers on a podcast.
All it takes is a few ministersin a city, starting to have
lunch and to talk about what canwe do?
Let us model theseconversations.
(44:56):
Let's start as ministers havingthese conversations and then
let's take these conversationsto our people.
All it takes is a few ruralchurches, both black and white
churches of Christ, to say let'stry to do something radical and
model something radical thatrural America has never seen and
(45:16):
model something radical thatrural America has never seen.
It only takes a few people andthe way that we are structured.
We don't have to ask anybodyfor permission to take the
kingdom of God to another level.
So what I love about Churches ofChrist we always stand on the
verge of change and repentance.
So the great thing aboutChurches of Christ is that we
(45:37):
can do it.
Our structure allows us to justgo and do it, and all it takes
is two brothers, two sisters, agroup of friends, a couple of
churches.
That's all it takes, and wealways, perpetually, continually
stand at the verge, on the edgeof change and repentance, on
the edge of change andrepentance.
And so I call myself to thattoday and I've enjoyed this
(46:06):
conversation with you as abrother that previously I have
not known but you know, love andappreciate because of this
discussion and commit to usingmy time and talent and resources
and skills and abilities, tousing my time and talent and
resources and skills andabilities and all that God has
given me, to making sure that Iam showing up for this
discussion and presenting myselfin a way that brings glory,
honor, respect and excellence tothe presentation of the gospel,
(46:29):
not only in my church, thechurch of Christ, but in our
communities at large.
And to God be the glory.
Well, brother Barron Jones,thank you for being, and to God
be the glory.
BT Irwin (46:37):
Well, brother Baron Jones, thank you for being that
voice crying in the wilderness.
You said prophetic clarity isnot from the middle space or the
neutral space.
Sometimes you have to step outinto the wilderness.
And thank you for letting yourvoice be heard in the pages of
the Christian Chronicle and onthis podcast today.
And let it just be the start ofa growing conversation that
(46:59):
spreads to our congregationsacross the land.
Amen.
We hope that something you heardin this episode encouraged,
enlightened or enriched you insome way.
If it did, thanks be to God andplease pay it forward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Recommend and review itwherever you listen to your
favorite podcasts.
Your subscription,recommendation and review help
(47:22):
us reach more people.
Please send your comments,ideas and suggestions to podcast
at christianchronicleorg.
And don't forget our ministryto inform and inspire Christians
and congregations around theworld is a non-profit ministry
that relies on your generosity.
So if you like the show and youwant to keep it going and make
it even better, please make atax-deductible gift to the
(47:42):
Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg slash
donate.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis a production of the Christian
Chronicle Incorporated,informing and inspiring Church
of Christ congregations, membersand ministries around the world
since 1943.
The Christian Chroniclesmanaging editor is Audrey
Jackson, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and executive director
(48:04):
and CEO Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis written, directed, hosted
and edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan at
Podcast your Voice Studios inthe Motor City, detroit,
michigan, usa.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
We're bringing you the storiesshaping Church of Christ,
congregations and members aroundthe world.
I'm BT Irwin.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
The biblical story of God andthe people of God is a story of
(00:24):
constant movement.
God calls the patriarchsAbraham, isaac and Jacob to
wander as aliens among people inplaces that are not their own.
The children of Israel sojournas slaves in Egypt for hundreds
of years.
Later, god wanders in thewilderness with Israel for two
generations until they come tothe promised land.
But once there, they enjoybeing settled and secure for
(00:48):
only about a hundred years outof their entire history in that
land.
The rest of the time they areharassed and often displaced,
until Assyria and Babylon carrythem off into exile.
Thus begins the Jewish diasporaof that time.
It is during this diaspora thatJesus is born and lives his
public life as a homelessitinerant preacher with quote no
(01:09):
place to lay his head.
End quote.
And our ancestors in theChristian faith often found
themselves persecuted and pushedout, living as pilgrims and
refugees on the margins of Romansociety.
In sum, the Bible portrays Godand God's people as outsiders In
the Bible.
This mostly keeps them far fromcultural, economic and
(01:30):
political power.
But Jesus reveals a kind ofpower that is greater than any
power we are familiar with onearth.
The greatest display andexpression of that power is
Jesus' death on a cross, a formof execution that Rome invented
for foreigners and slaves.
And what is this power thatJesus reveals?
(01:50):
It is sacrificial,self-emptying love that arises
from complete faith and hope inGod.
Jesus is able and willing tosacrifice himself for sinful
humanity because he is certainthat God will vindicate him by
raising him from the dead.
This complete confidence in Godis what emboldens Jesus to
(02:11):
speak the truth in love, anaction that gets him into
trouble with everyone, includinghis own family and friends.
I am convinced that becauseJesus does not join any faction,
all factions come to fear himand must conspire to put him to
death.
No faction can control orneutralize Jesus, so all
factions have no choice but togang up on him.
(02:31):
Jesus doesn't set out toantagonize anyone, but to simply
speak the truth in love, andthat doesn't make sense to
anyone who grows up in a worldthat teaches us to pick sides
and fight for our own side,right or wrong.
Today, we will hear from anapprentice and student of Jesus
Christ who is calling us to picksides and fight for our own
side, right or wrong.
Today, we will hear from anapprentice and student of Jesus
Christ who is calling us tofollow the example of Jesus that
is speaking the truth in love,an act that will often make us
(02:53):
exiles and outsiders in aculture that insists that we
must pick sides and fight, fight, fight.
Barron Jones is a native ofLouisiana and Mississippi, a
graduate of Lipscomb Universityin Nashville, tennessee, and a
member of the Holgate StreetChurch of Christ in Seattle,
washington, where he is part ofthe preaching team.
He hosts a YouTube channel thatexplores race, religion and
(03:15):
politics.
You know bland stuff.
He recently published aChristian Chronicle op-ed Stuck
in the Middle with Jesus, whyBlack Christians in America Feel
Alienated from Cultural Campson Either Side and what Comes
Next.
Barron Jones (03:27):
He's here with us now, brother Barron, welcome BT
good morning, afternoon orwhatever time it is for our
listeners who are listening tous and watching Glad to be here,
Excited to be a part of thisdiscussion today.
BT Irwin (03:40):
I will say that's an enthusiastic greeting for a guy
who's up very early on the WestCoast.
Barron Jones (03:44):
I will say that's an enthusiastic greeting for a
guy who's up very early.
On the West Coast, things getstarted sometimes earlier than
we planned, but hey, I'm happyto be here and I think it's
going to be a fruitfuldiscussion.
So thanks for having me.
BT Irwin (03:52):
You're wise enough to know that if you put your name
on a column like yours, somepeople are going to disagree
strongly or they may even saymean things about you.
What happened that you decidedthat any harsh reactions would
not be as bad as not publishingyour column?
What made you do it?
Barron Jones (04:09):
If we're going to be spiritual leaders, right.
And if we're going to representsomeone who himself was killed
for what he said, right.
I mean, they killed Jesus forwhat he did, but it was really a
lot for what he said.
You know, I just don't think weshould be overly concerned if
someone's going to say somethingmean about a column that I
(04:33):
submitted for publication.
Like, I think, in comparison tosome of the things that Jesus
and the disciples suffered,that's not even, I think, worthy
of, of complaining about.
You know, I think that thereare far too many expressions of
Christianity today where we areoverly concerned about the
(04:53):
response.
And it's interesting, like youknow, you and I have a similar
background as far as upbringing,right, and one of the things
they always told us was likedon't be afraid to stand up for
what you believe in the world,and you go to school and you be
strong and you, you know,whatever the consequences.
But it's like we haven't takenthat same mindset when it comes
to dealing with the brotherhood,dealing with my brothers who I
(05:17):
sit in the pew, with churchesthat I preach to, and
brotherhood politics andbrotherhood politics.
I just think if you're going tobe a spiritual leader, you
simply can't have too muchconcern for your reputation,
right?
It doesn't mean that youintentionally would stain your
reputation.
But my concern in speaking andwriting and preaching as a
(05:39):
spiritual leader cannot be totry to say things and say them
in such a way that my primaryconcern is to keep you know,
keep people happy or to keepthem comfortable.
You know, I wrote the piecebecause I think silence is a
much worse offense than actuallysharing how we truly believe
(06:01):
within a context of love.
And I have to check my heart,bt.
You know, I don't want to speakout of bitterness, I don't want
to a context of love.
Now, I have to check my heart,bt.
I don't want to speak out ofbitterness, I don't want to
speak out of rebellion.
I think there's a contrariannature in me, so I have to make
sure I'm not speaking just to becontrarian, but I truly believe
that some of these things haveto be shared and said, not
necessarily speaking for allblack people, but as a black
(06:23):
minister of the gospel speakingthings that could potentially
help a lot of black people whocan identify with some of the
things that they were said andfind themselves in similar
situations, if that's helpful.
BT Irwin (06:33):
From the column it sounds like and you just
mentioned this here you havepersonal experience feeling like
an outsider from both what youcall the quote black First
Movement end quote.
And quote white Christianspaces end quote.
What would you be willing toshare about those experiences of
feeling like an outsider ineach?
Barron Jones (06:54):
I was raised in a household that taught and lived
out not just taught but livedout the idea we are all of God's
children.
My parents modeled that we hadfellowship with black, that we
had fellowship with blackchurches.
We had fellowship withpredominantly white churches.
We were taught to love, acceptand serve everyone in the
kingdom of God, and I still holdon to that.
(07:17):
And I mention that becausesometimes, when people read a
single article like this fromsomeone that they do not know,
they start making assumptionsabout how I would view Christian
unity or do I even stillbelieve in cross-racial
fellowship within the church.
So I want to make it clear Ideeply believe those things and
(07:37):
I want to cut someone off at thecut from even trying to say
that reading something that theydon't like and maybe assuming
that someone doesn't like andmaybe assuming that someone
doesn't believe in unity or thatwe shouldn't deal with these
racial tensions.
So what I can to your questionspecifically, though, you know
what I can say about the BlackFirst movement is that I
identify with a lot of thecritiques that they have about
(07:59):
society and the dominant societyand what the dominance of white
society has done to blackpeople historically in this
country, including religion, andhow vestiges of that still
remain today.
We're not saying it's the same,but that things still remain
that have been built into theDNA of America that we need to
(08:20):
be talking about and continuingto work through those of us who
are believers in the spirit oflove advancing the kingdom of
God as we talk about thosethings.
So you know, I find adisconnect with the movement
because, again, I believe inworking with my white brothers
and sisters.
I believe in equal and sharedleadership, working together and
we need to value each other'sinput and all of those things.
(08:40):
And that's kind of where we welose our brothers in the Black
First movement, where they'rereally not that concerned with
unity and working together andfostering that relationship with
our white brothers and sisters.
I'll be honest with you, BT.
I will say this I am a littlehesitant to share personal
(09:00):
experiences, not because I'mafraid to share them or ashamed
to share them, but because Ihave found that personal
experiences as anecdotes this ismy observation often don't move
the conversation forward.
In fact, what I find typicallyhappens is people hear your
(09:23):
examples and then theyimmediately go looking for holes
in what you say, Instead ofactually letting what you say
resonate with them, that theremight be an experience of truth
outside of their experience,because if they have not
experienced it, how could itactually be true?
How could it actually be true?
Right?
And so telling a story, I think, oftentimes does the opposite
(09:47):
of what we would hope that itwould do and people can kind of
dismiss it as an exception.
See, it happened to you insteadof what I'm claiming as a small
(10:08):
narrative, as part of a largerpicture that is continuing to
happen.
Right, If I, as your brother inChrist, say this is I write
this article, BT, and I say thisis how I'm feeling, like that
should be enough.
I shouldn't need to really giveyou any stories or histories
behind it to buttress it or tomake it stand up for your
approval.
Because I am your brother inChrist, why would you think I
needed to give you anythingbeyond what I say, unless you,
(10:31):
from the get-go, question mymotives, questioning my
intentions, which I know a lotof people do, and most people
who read the article don't knowme.
But you do know the faith thatI profess and a lot of people
have spoken in their churches.
You've allowed me to preach inyour pulpits and I give a lesson
(10:53):
and you say amen.
But then if I say somethingabout race relations in the
church and in America, all of asudden now I need personal
examples for you to buy intowhat I'm saying I find that a
lot of times when we tellstories, what people will do is
they'll go and they'll look,they'll dismiss eight stories,
(11:14):
They'll dismiss nine storiesthat black people tell, They'll
go find one black person whowill support their cause.
So they will dismiss the nine,They'll dismiss the eight and
they'll go find one and they'llsay see, what you're saying
can't be true, because Johnny,Mary, Sue, over here, they don't
have that experience.
But what about the eight thatjust told you that all your,
that your brothers and sistersin Christ, they just told you
they have that experience.
I have very low expectationsthat any experiences that I
(11:36):
could share, unfortunately,would move the conversation.
The way that I think us justtrusting each other, the way
that I think us just trustingeach other, loving each other
and taking for granted that yourintentions and that your
actions are truly genuine,that's what's going to move the
conversation forward, and thenwe can share stories to say, wow
(11:59):
, brother, I'm sorry that thathappened to you and that's going
to help.
You know that's going to helpme be reflective and think, but
I think we have to.
We're kind of getting the cartbefore the horse.
We want to lead withexperiences and we really have
to lead with.
What type of relationship doblack Christians and white
Christians have in churches ofChrist that can set the stage so
(12:19):
that when black Christians talkabout their experiences in your
churches, you don't run and tryto find other black people that
you don't even know on Fox Newsor CNN that are going to say
something that you agree with.
Meanwhile, the black personthat is in your church that you
allow to preach in your pulpit,you would discount what they say
(12:41):
.
Now, back in 2015, I was livingin San Antonio, Texas in 2015 at
that time and I was arrested inJanuary of 2015 for driving
while intoxicated in San AntonioTexas and was arrested, put in
the back of a patrol car, takendown to the station, taken down
(13:01):
to the station and they took myblood by force as a part of the
arrest process.
Well, BT, what that officer didnot know.
White officer and I bring uprace only because we're talking
about policing in America.
So if anyone doesn't think raceis a part of that.
We got to get into history tounderstand facts right.
(13:22):
I don't know the gentlemanpersonally.
All I know is he was white, Iwas black, I got taken down to
jail.
But what he did not know aboutme is that I was a church boy,
BT.
He had arrested a church boy.
He had put in the report hesmelled a moderate amount of
intoxicants on my person, but hedid not know, BT, that I was a
(13:45):
church boy.
Ironically, at the time, BT, Iwas out driving Uber, so I was
actually taking drunk people offof the streets at the time I
was driving for Uber.
at the time when he pulled meover and arrested me he put in
the report I smelled a moderateamount of intoxicants on his
person.
Now you and I have similarupbringings, bt.
So we're a good Church ofChrist boy.
(14:06):
So we were raised.
We were told not only do younot get drunk, bt, you don't
touch the stuff.
That's the environment that Iwas raised in.
So I have never consumedalcohol in my life.
He didn't know that To him Iwas just another Black person.
I feel that he thought he couldtake down and he's going to
find something or something willstick.
(14:27):
Well, they took my blood.
So obviously, when the bloodwork came back, the charges were
dropped because there was noalcohol in my system.
But between the time that I wasarrested and the time that my
blood work came back and thecase was dropped and word of my
arrest got out, to my dismay Ifound that some of my white
(14:48):
brothers and sisters, almostfrom the jump, either took the
word of the police officer orquestioned why something like
that would happen to me in asituation like that and, brother
, that hurt because I'vepreached in your pulpits.
(15:09):
You've known me since I was yeahigh.
You know my family, so whydon't I get the benefit of the
doubt?
Even in our judicial systemit's innocent until proven
guilty.
So what should it be within thechurch, where we have all been
baptized into the body of Christand have all been made to drink
of that one spirit?
I'm going to get the preacherto quote scripture.
(15:31):
But what should it be in thechurch if in the court of law
it's innocent until provenguilty?
Now, I don't know the whitepolice officer's heart.
I don't know why some of mywhite brothers and sisters felt
led to believe him quickly orwere open to the idea more than
(15:52):
they believed me, you know.
And race is one of those trickythings, because we're not in a
time where people are openlyespousing racism, even though I
see that actually growing,unfortunately.
But I'm not here to judgeanybody's heart or intentions.
I can only say, as a blackChristian who has moved in many
white dominated spaces in ourcountry and in religion and in a
(16:16):
law enforcement system that hashistorically been designed to
entrap black people, in asituation where an officer said
he smelled alcohol on my person,which I know was not true in
the moment that he said it, hecalls himself a professional and
the blood work came back in myfavor.
It's hurtful that I had to hearthose things expressed.
(16:41):
So that's just one experience.
I had to hear those thingsexpressed, so that's just one
experience.
This is one I could tell others.
I've had guns pulled on medriving a car.
I've never done anything.
You talk to the black people inyour churches.
BT Irwin (16:57):
They have stories, but are those stories really going
to move you?
Yeah, one of the things thatI've heard from some of my
friends in churches that I'veattended still attend to this
day are very similar to what yousay.
It's that I don't understandwhy people that have worshiped
(17:20):
with me for 10, 20, 30 yearsI've entrusted me with their to
be an elder or to preach, or toshepherd them or have entrusted
me with their kids and youthgroup.
I don't understand why theydon't believe me when I tell
them certain things about myexperience and that's been
(17:45):
something that I've heard, alament that I've heard from many
people over the years.
I don't know why I'm so trustedin some ways, but when I talk
about my experience as a personof color, that's when my
brothers and sisters don'tbelieve me anymore.
Barron Jones (18:02):
We as black Christians can get access and
approval in white dominatedspaces, when what we are saying
is in line with what thosespaces agree with and that is
the gospel, right.
And so you know, this is where,like in the black first
(18:23):
movement, they would say yeah,you know those white people at
those churches, they only likeyou because you're saying what
they want you to say.
Well, I mean, I'm saying what Iwant to say, which is the
gospel.
I believe in the gospel.
I believe in furthering thekingdom of God on Earth.
I believe in the message ofJesus of Nazareth that came as
(18:50):
king of the Jews, light unto theGentiles, light unto us all,
and that he is calling us towork together and to be together
.
So it's not just that blackChristians and white dominated
spaces are saying things thatwhite people like to hear.
We are saying things that webelieve about the gospel that
happen to coincide with whatwhite brothers and sisters also
believe about the gospel.
When black people start to saythings that are not supported by
those spaces, that we find thealienation that comes with that,
(19:11):
if we actually choose to sayanything, because we know that
saying something is going tojeopardize the relationship that
has been built based upon thethings that we do agree on,
which is the gospel.
Well, someone says, well, youhave to bring up race.
Well, race relations is part ofthe gospel.
(19:32):
It's just not a part of thegospel that is welcomed openly.
I think we would hope that wehave built up a relationship so
that when we do say something,it does not jeopardize the 15,
20, 25 years, the leadership,the preaching, all of the things
(19:53):
that we have done together.
We would hope that when we saysomething that would come across
to some of our white brothersand sisters as like, why would
they say that?
Or why would you, outside oftheir experience or knowledge or
grasp of what the truth mightbe, how could our take on this
one issue denigrate, jeopardize,diminish, do anything to what
(20:22):
we to all of these other areas?
So this is why a lot of blackChristians really won't say that
much.
My white brothers and sisterswho are church leaders, just I
would respectfully say to youdirectly it's not about how you
feel about the article, it'sabout the black people in your
(20:42):
spaces, in your churches.
What do they think about what Iwrote and do they feel safe
enough to say what that brotherwrote in the article Amen
Resonates with me.
They're not condemning yourchurches to hell.
They're in your churches,they're in fellowship with you.
BT Irwin (21:02):
I want to point out one thing about your column that
is refreshing to me.
It's when you say that thisisn't a quote call to centrism
or neutrality, end quote.
And I like that because I feelthat many times, when we talk
about being moderate or standingon the middle ground, what we
really mean is that we avoidtalking about things on which we
(21:23):
disagree.
We pretend that ourdisagreements don't exist, just
for the sake of getting along.
And you're explicit that you'renot calling for this.
You're calling for what youcall quote prophetic clarity,
end quote.
What?
Barron Jones (21:37):
do you mean by that?
We want a church that'stheologically sound,
theologically healthy,spiritually healthy.
So you know, mainstream doesn'tmean correct, neutral doesn't
mean righteous and centristdoesn't mean prophetic.
So I think we're going to beserious about the truth.
The truth has to be my startingpoint, right, and unity should
(21:57):
come after.
I don't even think unity shouldbe the starting point.
The starting point should betruth, and then let's let us
unite around what the truth is.
Now, finding out what truth isand discerning truth is a
lifelong endeavor.
It's not a place where we getto and that we hold and maintain
, but it is something that weare constantly doing.
Until God transitions us toanother existence.
(22:20):
We are always searching anddiscerning what the truth is.
In a very general sense, Iunderstand that there are major
truths that don't change, butlife is very dynamic and there's
a lot of crevices and things inlife that we got to figure out
and we're always on that journey.
So I would say, you know,prophetic being prophetic is
(22:45):
that we don't walk away fromtension.
We expect tension, andprophetic clarity calls us to
speak truth even when it'suncomfortable, even when it
jeopardizes theological comfort.
Comfortable even when itjeopardizes theological comfort.
(23:07):
Prophetic clarity meansspeaking when it jeopardizes
political alignment, financialsecurity, long-held assumptions,
right.
That's what I mean by propheticclarity and that's why it's
dangerous to some people,because prophetic clarity can
disrupt.
It challenges, it exposes whatwe've always allowed to remain
(23:28):
unexamined, unchallenged in ourchurches, especially when it
comes to power, influence andrace.
BT Irwin (23:37):
I think I want to clear something up here for
people listening, because thismay not be clear to some folks.
When a lot of people in ourpews hear prophet, they think of
one who predicts the future.
When you talk about propheticclarity or speaking with
prophetic voice, I think youmean more than that.
So could you just for the sakeof everyone listening here, when
(24:00):
you talk about what it means tospeak prophetically, what is it
that you're saying?
Barron Jones (24:05):
Probably for our people.
You know, preaching would be amuch more term that, a term that
would much more easily genderup the word picture ideas that
we want here.
We want someone who is bringingforth the word of God as it
should be for the people of Godin a particular time and place,
(24:26):
shaped by the God who is givingthem the word.
BT Irwin (24:29):
I think of prophecy as telling the truth and
reflecting the truth about God,and also reflecting to people
the truth about themselves, soholding up a mirror to people so
that they can see themselvesmore truly.
You talk about the gospel topeople so that they can see
themselves more truly.
You talk about the gospel andthat's where I think some people
in the pews may not track withyou anymore, because they say
(24:50):
well, what does the color ofsomeone's skin have to do with
choosing Jesus?
What does the color ofsomeone's skin have to do with
the gospel?
So could you connect those dotsfor people that still don't
follow where you're leading?
Barron Jones (25:05):
I think part of the difficulty in embracing what
I'm trying to convey by an idealike prophetic clarity actually
stems from how churches ofChrist have historically
understood spirituality right.
So you know, over time ourfocus has often been less about
transforming ourselves, bt, andmore about correcting others.
(25:31):
So we pour we've poured a lotof enormous energy into learning
doctrines, convincing otherswhy what they might be saying or
doing might not be inaccordance with scripture right.
We have spent far less timeexamining how we need to grow,
(25:52):
how we need to repent, how weourselves need to be transformed
, and I think that is more kindof the original spirit of the
early participants of themovement.
Like it began with the desireto restore something that they
felt like was more Christlikeand more biblical.
But somewhere along the waythat vision, I think, shifted
(26:15):
and it became about defendingpositions, pointing out flaws in
others.
So now this is why I think westruggle with an idea of
prophetic clarity, because itputs us under the spotlight.
It puts our churches under thespotlight, it puts our theology
under the spotlight and we, Idon't think, really know what to
do with that.
As a fellowship we have notreally cultivated the muscle for
(26:38):
repentance.
I hate to say it, but we canrepent of that.
Let us repent of notcultivating the muscle for
repentance.
We've not practiced saying wewere wrong.
We need to grow, we need to dobetter, because somehow we think
it jeopardizes the work thatwe've done up until this point.
(26:58):
So we've got to get.
We've got to get beyond that.
This is exactly what propheticclarity leads to.
Got to get beyond that.
This is exactly what propheticclarity leads to.
It leads to repentance.
Bt a church that can join handstogether, black brothers and
white brothers, and say werepent.
It's going to require, I think,major spiritual and
(27:20):
psychological shift that we haveto be a part of, because we've
just been in the habit oftelling everybody else what to
do.
But I think, if we were to behonest with ourselves, we have a
lot of work that we need to do,especially when it comes to
racism, unity and love acrossracial lines.
The goal is not condemnation.
BT Irwin (27:35):
When you were talking about our history, our heritage,
our tradition in the Church ofChrist.
Some people don't like thatword, but one of the things I
was thinking about is that weare a very individual.
We are individualistic when itcomes to the gospel, and so when
(27:58):
you were talking about how wewould be outward focused, what
everyone else is maybe doingwrong, that we're doing right,
and we go into a defensiveposture, I was thinking we
interpret that through anindividual level.
So an example would be well, Igo to the right church that does
(28:20):
the right things and doesn't dothe wrong things, so I'm safe,
I'm okay because I'm a member ofthat church and I don't drink,
I don't smoke, I don't swear, Idon't do drugs, I don't have sex
outside of marriage Us goodChurch of Christ kids.
(28:40):
We know all the don'ts.
And so as an individual and I'mspeaking from my own experience
I know I'm in the right churchthat does the right things and
doesn't do the wrong things.
I know that I don't do thosethings that I'm not supposed to
do and I'm working every day togrow in my relationship with
Jesus.
So I'm reading my Bible, I'mspending time in prayer, I'm
(29:02):
giving money when I go to churchand then, when this idea of
racism comes into the picture, Ican see and I'm now speaking
from experience I can tell youhow it was confusing to me A
long time ago because I thought,well, I'm at the right church,
I do the right things, not thewrong.
(29:22):
Well, I'm at the right church,I do the right things, not the
wrong things, I do all the rightthings.
And, frankly, where I grew up,I I don't know any black people.
So, as an individual, I thinkthis is not something that I
need to think about or careabout at all.
It just has nothing to do withme, because I'm trying to get to
(29:42):
heaven and I'm doing all thesethings to get to heaven, and I'm
doing all these things to getto heaven and I'm avoiding these
things.
And so I feel like a lot of ourpeople in the pews interpret
life through thatindividualistic lens, and I
think that's where a lot of usget stuck is that when we start
talking about the things thatyou've brought forward in your
(30:04):
column and I've had whiteChristians say this to me many,
many times in life that hasnothing to do with me, that
doesn't concern me at all,that's not a problem for me, and
what they mean is I'm not aracist, right?
That's not a problem for mebecause they're thinking about
themselves as one individualtrying to get to heaven and
(30:27):
they're like I've never had theopportunity to be racist or
that's just not something that Ifeel in my heart, so it's, it's
no concern of mine, baron, whydo you keep bringing this up to
me?
You see, I'm fine, I'm good,I'm going to heaven by the grace
of God.
Why are you insisting on makingthis something that we need, a
(30:49):
problem that we need to dealwith?
Barron Jones (30:51):
It's always interesting how the apostolic
church handled the Grecianwidows in Acts 6.
Can you imagine some of theHebraic, jerusalem, judea
(31:14):
centered Christians who saidthey got nothing to do with me?
That's them.
They got a problem with howthings are playing out.
I ain't got nothing to do withme because I'm good, me and God,
I've been baptized in Christ,I'm saved, I'm going to heaven.
So, like some of the thingsthat we say right and that
individualistic mindset that youtalked about, can we imagine
what that would sound like whenyou have the Grecian widows who
(31:34):
say, hey, hold up, hold up, holdup.
We don't feel like things arefair.
We ain't about to leave thebody of Christ, we ain't.
We're not accusing leadership,we're just saying, hey, you know
, let's talk about this.
Take a look at it.
And I can easily see someChristians, some of the ones who
were on the Hebraic side, beingvery dismissive, saying it has
(31:56):
nothing to do with them, thatthey ain't got nothing against.
No, grecian widow Some of myfavorite friends are Grecian
widows.
I mean, we can go with all ofthe sayings that we hear, right,
okay.
But the leaders said, oh, no,okay, we're going to take this
complaint seriously.
I love the fact that thereseemed to be like oh, because
(32:16):
the Grecian widows said it, theyare believable.
We're going to look into this,we're going to follow up, we're
going to come up with a solution.
The people that are going to beexecuting the solution seem to
be of Greek influence themselves.
So to someone who feels likethis discussion doesn't concern
them, I would just say go backand read that text and ask
(32:39):
yourself if your response towhat black brothers and sisters
in Christ are sharing with you,if your response would fit
within the context of how theapostolic leadership responded
in Act six.
And look at what they did.
Yeah, they didn't accuse theGrecian widows of being victims
living in the past, having anaxe to grind a chip on their
(33:03):
shoulder, past having an ax togrind a chip on their shoulder.
They took their complaintsseriously and they came up with
a solution together.
BT Irwin (33:09):
I just going through the feedback that came in after
we published your column, Ifound a retort that is common
pretty much every time wepublish something like this, and
that is being black or whiteshould not matter at all.
Quote for you are all one inChrist Jesus.
End quote.
Galatians, chapter three, verse28.
That comes up almost every time.
As an apprentice and student ofJesus Christ and a member of
(33:33):
his body, why does being blackmatter to you?
Nonetheless, why do you hope itmatters to brothers and sisters
in Christ who are not black?
Barron Jones (33:42):
Wow, you know, being black or white should not
matter.
Right, that's the, that's thebrother.
You know we don't live in theshould nots, brother.
I'm sorry, like I'm trying, Igot to live in this real world
out here.
Being black or white should notmatter.
(34:03):
I understand that statement tobe aspirational.
It reflects the kind of worldthat we hope to live in.
But I am trying to live in theworld that is Brother BT, and
the world that is, especially inAmerica, is a world where race
(34:28):
matters.
It has always mattered inAmerica and it's still.
All we're saying is it stilldoes.
That's all that column issaying is that in white
dominated Christian spaces, racestill matters Doesn't mean that
y'all are not Christians,doesn't mean that we won't
follow your leadership.
Don't make the article say whatit's not saying.
We're saying race still mattersDoesn't mean that y'all are not
Christians, doesn't mean thatwe won't follow your leadership.
Don't make the article say whatit's not saying.
We're saying race still matters.
So we aspire, as Dr King said,aspire to be judged by the
(34:53):
content of our.
We aspire to have a country andto have a church where being
black or white should not matter.
But because you say that, youthink that that's how it is.
No-transcript.
I pray for that vision, I serveand I preach and I minister
(35:19):
towards that vision, which iswhat bringing about the kingdom
of God on Earth and in this,this society, where race should
not matter, should be part ofthat kingdom that we hope and
that we're praying, that we'reworking, is coming, you know,
but what I cannot do is pretendthat that the vision has already
(35:39):
arrived, because black peoplein this country, in this society
, we have inherited A countryand a church, bt, where race
(36:03):
determines more than justperception.
It can affect our dignity, oursafety, our opportunities, our
access to justice and, yes, evenour standing in spiritual and
religious places.
And the church, unfortunately,is not separate from society.
The church exists withinsociety, which means the effects
(36:28):
of race and racism are noterased just because we walk
through the church doors.
Brother and some white peoplewoke up one day and said they
don't see color.
That does not change reality,because a few white people in
our churches are saying thatBlack Christians know this, we
know this, we lived it right.
We experience what it feelslike to walk into these spaces
(36:53):
and wonder if we're being seen,being fully heard, being fully
embraced Right, and it's it'scomplex, very complex situation.
So you know, to your question,yes, my blackness matters.
It doesn't matter because Iwant it to matter.
It matters because the Americansystem was built on making it
(37:18):
matter.
That's history.
And you know we get fromhousing to education to law
enforcement, health care,economics, transportation,
religion.
You can't name me a segment ofAmerican society where race
didn't play a part in thehistory of this country.
It has been baked into the DNAof this country.
(37:39):
That was not the doing of Blackpeople.
Your Black brothers and sistersdidn't do that.
It was the doing of those whocreated those systems.
And all we're saying is maybethe work of undoing all of that
is undone, maybe that work isunfinished and we need to
continue to openly and willinglybe a part of that work.
(38:02):
Now I will say this because youknow people will use Galatians
man.
People make Galatians 3.28, dog.
They make that verse do somework.
I mean, they make that verse dosome heavy lifting.
Right?
The verse gets thrown around alot of times in these type of
conversations as if it cancels,as if that verse cancels out the
(38:25):
reality of what people livethrough.
Now the verse is beautiful andit's powerful.
It talks about unity.
But I have to say this thatverse, beachy, did not stop
(38:47):
White slaveholders frombrutalizing black people.
That verse did not stop JimCrow from being instituted.
That verse did not stop 250years of slavery plus 100 years
of Jim Crow, mass incarceration,police brutality and the war
against black users of drugs.
That verse didn't stop all ofthat.
(39:10):
It did not stop blackChristians from being excluded
from white congregations and noteven to want black Christians
to read the Bible for fear thatthey would get a hold of a few
passages about justice.
Galatians 3.28 didn't stop allof that.
It did not stop the silence ofthe church during lynchings or
the resistance to integration.
So I would respectfully say, asa minister of the gospel and as
(39:33):
one that is always looking atscripture and how to exegete it
and apply it, let us not misuseGalatians 3.28 to shut down
black voices like these Grecianwidows who all we're saying is
sometimes it doesn't seem fair,that's all we're saying.
(39:54):
People, we get a littlereckless in using that verse
because we just don't like whatsomebody wrote or what they're
saying about a certain issue.
So, yeah, you know, my blacknessmatters because God created me
in it.
It's part of my humanity.
It's part of my story but, moreimportantly, it affects how I am
seen in America and even in myown church, if I'm, if I'm
(40:19):
treated well or mistreated ormisunderstood or understood
properly and all of it matters.
Right, and I long for the day.
May God speed the day when myblackness does not carry the
social and political andreligious consequences that it
carries, does not carry thesocial and political and
religious consequences that itcarries.
May God speed the day when Ican walk into any space, not
(40:46):
only in America but in ourchurches, and be received fully
in my humanity without havingthe second guess.
If my race is affecting how I'mbeing perceived or people have
made judgments about mepolitically just because of the
color of my skin.
Before I even open up my mouthto say God bless you, brother
and Jesus, you already have anidea about who I am.
May God speed the day.
But that day, brother, is nothere yet in 2025.
I don't believe it is and I'masking my white brothers and
(41:08):
sisters to join me in the circleof repentance so that God can
bring about that day.
BT Irwin (41:13):
I kind of want to give you an opportunity to bring it
back to the gospel again,because you are speaking to us
as a minister of the gospel ofJesus Christ and you're speaking
to all of us here in the UnitedStates, regardless of the color
of our skin and the culturefrom which we come.
We have listeners in 120countries around the world, so
there are Christians everywherein the world listening to you, a
(41:34):
minister of the gospel of JesusChrist, and I want to give you
the opportunity to tie yourcolumn and everything you've
said today back to what is thegood news for humanity.
What is it that we are calledto do and respond to together as
believers in Jesus Christ?
Yeah.
Barron Jones (41:54):
You're asking me to extend the invitation when
you ask a question like thatbecause that's what we're
bringing all together and sayyou know, god is doing a great
thing, he's bringing aboutsomething great.
But, ben, are you thinking withGalatians 3.28?
Yeah, you know, I think.
Look at Paul man and just theway he, the way he ministered,
(42:16):
was the way he ministered inattempting to bring together the
polarizing ends of theJew-Gentile relationship
Supports your interpretation ofGalatians 3.28, which is not all
the same or alike, but workingtogether within one body.
(42:41):
That's the hard way to do it.
That's why he had so manyissues and problems to deal with
in his churches.
Right so the Acts 15 councilthat was the easy part.
We often think that that was adifficult decision that they had
to make.
Do the Gentiles have to becircumcised?
That came together and had ameeting man.
(43:03):
Church meetings sometimes ascontiguous as they can get.
We all can have church meetingsand make decisions.
They had a church meeting andmake decisions and they had the
Holy Spirit on their side in avery strong way, which I believe
we haven't.
Holy Spirit on their side in avery strong way, which I believe
we haven't, but they had themin a very strong way.
They made a church decision.
Then you see Paul now having tolive in the reality of that
(43:29):
decision.
That's the letters and that'sthe problems that he had to deal
with.
That was the hard way to do.
It is to try to let Jews beJews and the Gentiles to
basically be Gentiles, with afew rules they had to follow and
in the King James Version saysfare ye.
Well, if you do this, theydidn't, man, that was very
(43:50):
aspirational.
They had a lot.
Paul had a lot of problems.
Paul was living, creatingtheology in the moment, trying
to keep that thing together.
So I think I'll just say youknow, I'm not even riffing on
what you said, just saying, yeah, man, if you look at the life
of Paul, the way that he triedto live out the gospel in his
churches only proved, proves, Ithink, your interpretation of
(44:13):
Galatians 328, which is that Godis not trying to make us alike.
He wants us to be together andbe ourselves, which is different
and that is a high calling, forvery different reasons for us
in 2025 than for them, but inmany respects no less difficult.
(44:34):
We stand perpetually on theverge of monumental change
because all it takes is twobrothers on a podcast.
All it takes is a few ministersin a city, starting to have
lunch and to talk about what canwe do?
Let us model theseconversations.
(44:56):
Let's start as ministers havingthese conversations and then
let's take these conversationsto our people.
All it takes is a few ruralchurches, both black and white
churches of Christ, to say let'stry to do something radical and
model something radical thatrural America has never seen and
(45:16):
model something radical thatrural America has never seen.
It only takes a few people andthe way that we are structured.
We don't have to ask anybodyfor permission to take the
kingdom of God to another level.
So what I love about Churches ofChrist we always stand on the
verge of change and repentance.
So the great thing aboutChurches of Christ is that we
(45:37):
can do it.
Our structure allows us to justgo and do it, and all it takes
is two brothers, two sisters, agroup of friends, a couple of
churches.
That's all it takes, and wealways, perpetually, continually
stand at the verge, on the edgeof change and repentance, on
the edge of change andrepentance.
And so I call myself to thattoday and I've enjoyed this
(46:06):
conversation with you as abrother that previously I have
not known but you know, love andappreciate because of this
discussion and commit to usingmy time and talent and resources
and skills and abilities, tousing my time and talent and
resources and skills andabilities and all that God has
given me, to making sure that Iam showing up for this
discussion and presenting myselfin a way that brings glory,
honor, respect and excellence tothe presentation of the gospel,
(46:29):
not only in my church, thechurch of Christ, but in our
communities at large.
And to God be the glory.
Well, brother Barron Jones,thank you for being, and to God
be the glory.
BT Irwin (46:37):
Well, brother Baron Jones, thank you for being that
voice crying in the wilderness.
You said prophetic clarity isnot from the middle space or the
neutral space.
Sometimes you have to step outinto the wilderness.
And thank you for letting yourvoice be heard in the pages of
the Christian Chronicle and onthis podcast today.
And let it just be the start ofa growing conversation that
(46:59):
spreads to our congregationsacross the land.
Amen.
We hope that something you heardin this episode encouraged,
enlightened or enriched you insome way.
If it did, thanks be to God andplease pay it forward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Recommend and review itwherever you listen to your
favorite podcasts.
Your subscription,recommendation and review help
(47:22):
us reach more people.
Please send your comments,ideas and suggestions to podcast
at christianchronicleorg.
And don't forget our ministryto inform and inspire Christians
and congregations around theworld is a non-profit ministry
that relies on your generosity.
So if you like the show and youwant to keep it going and make
it even better, please make atax-deductible gift to the
(47:42):
Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg slash
donate.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis a production of the Christian
Chronicle Incorporated,informing and inspiring Church
of Christ congregations, membersand ministries around the world
since 1943.
The Christian Chroniclesmanaging editor is Audrey
Jackson, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and executive director
(48:04):
and CEO Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis written, directed, hosted
and edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan at
Podcast your Voice Studios inthe Motor City, detroit,
michigan, usa.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!