June 5, 2025 • 39 mins
Could eating more pie lead to healthier and stronger churches?
Doug Pell says "yes." A longtime Church of Christ elder and retired senior executive from the U.S. defense industry, Pell recently authored Set in Order the Things That Are Lacking: Lessons in Biblical Leadership (Sain Publications).
In this episode, Pell shares the experience he gained from decades in church and corporate leadership and the knowledge he gained from his intense study of biblical eldership for local congregations.
Pell touches on the following themes:
- Why the corporate management model is not the leadership model that the Lord chooses for his church
- Why biblical leadership is harder than anyone imagines, but perhaps not as hard to attain as congregations might think
- How congregational leadership must happen in living rooms, not elders' meetings
- Why deacons and wives may be the most important people to a congregation's eldership
- And what does pie have to do with congregational health?
Link to Set in Order the Things That Are Lacking: Lessons in Biblical Leadership
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
BT Irwin (00:03):
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
We're bringing you the storiesshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
I'm BT Irwin.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
Last fall, the Barna Groupreleased a study that found
almost three out of four churchleaders in the United States
(00:27):
fear that their congregationswill decline because of
inadequate leadership.
Half of those respondents wenton to say that their
congregations do not prioritizetraining and developing new
leaders.
What about you and yourcongregation?
How would you describe thehealth and vitality of your
congregation's eldership?
How would you describe theintention and investments your
(00:50):
congregation is making in futureelders?
Today we're talking aboutcongregational leadership, with
emphasis on how the Bibleimagines that leadership coming
from healthy and vibrantelderships.
We'll hear from a man whobrings decades of experience as
both an elder and a leader incorporate America.
Doug Pell is an executive coachand retired executive with
(01:10):
decades of experience as asenior finance officer in the US
defense industry.
He also put in decades ofservice and elderships at two
Church of Christ congregationsin Ohio and Michigan.
Now full disclosure Doug and hiswife Kathy are longtime friends
of my own family, my parents,going back to the days when they
were starting their families inAkron, ohio, back in the 1970s.
(01:31):
Doug's son, tim, grew up withme, was my roommate for two
years at Harding University andis still one of my best friends,
and Doug was my cabin counselorwhen I was eight years old and
going to church camp for thefirst time.
He took care of me that firstnight when I ate too much candy
and threw up outside the cabin,and he comforted me on nights
when I got homesick.
So we go way, way back, butthat is not why he's here today.
(01:52):
Doug took all of his experiencein eldership and leadership,
added several years of intensebiblical study and wrote Set and
Order the Things that AreLacking Lessons in Biblical
Leadership now available fromSANE Publications.
It is 558 pages of Lessons inBiblical Leadership, which, doug
, I will point out, makes it thelongest book I've read for this
(02:12):
show.
How long did it take you towrite this book?
Doug Pell (02:16):
I'd been thinking about it for a long time, but
the moment I set pen to paperstarted the research until
publication was five years Now.
The last year was searching fora publisher, but so I'll say
three and a half to four years,you know, broken broken up by.
You know vacation here andthere and went and said hi to my
(02:40):
wife and yeah, let's get intoit.
BT Irwin (02:46):
The title is Set in Order the Things that Are
Lacking, which comes from theApostle Paul's letter to Titus,
chapter 1, verse 5.
That verse comes up again andagain and again throughout the
book.
Did you, or do you observe orperceive that something is
lacking in more than a fewcongregations?
And I'll just I'll hand you aquote from the book.
(03:07):
Here's your quote the churchthat Jesus died for has been
going through a test ofleadership for a very long time.
We have been failing the test,end quote.
Tell us a little bit about theurgency that you perceive there
and why you feel like this bookis needed now.
Doug Pell (03:26):
The quote was a reminder that it's been going.
It's been going badly for thechurch ever since the first
century.
In Acts 20, 29,.
Paul said I know that after mydeparture he's talking to the
Ephesian elders in Melinus.
After my departure, savagewolves will come in among you,
(03:48):
not sparing the flock, and fromamong your own selves he's
talking to the elders men willarise speaking perverse things
to draw away the disciples afterthem.
From everything we can tellfrom history, it really was
Ephesus where this grandapostasy happened to the church.
(04:11):
So Paul was right.
Most all apostasies that we cansee in the church started with
the problem of the organizationof the church, the leadership of
the church.
As the leadership goes, so goesthe church.
BT Irwin (04:31):
When I finished the book, I shut the book feeling a
little bit overwhelmed andthinking, wow, who could ever
become an elder?
Who could ever become an elder?
(05:01):
And so, in a time where itfeels like we're struggling so
much with a shortage ofqualified men for many things in
society, not least the Churchof Christ, how is it that?
Well, let me say it this wayyou know, when congregations
read this book, or when peoplethat are elders or may become
elders read this book, they maythink the standards are harder
and higher to attain than I everimagined.
So what is a congregation to dowhen too few men meet the
standard of eldership?
Doug Pell (05:20):
I kind of got this same idea halfway into the book.
I went man, people are going toread this and go.
We cannot.
We thought we could appointelders and now we can't.
I went.
That's okay.
I think it's important thatwe're slow to hire.
This is just something welearned in business.
(05:41):
Let's be slow to hire, let's beslow to put people in positions
of authority, let's make sure.
I've been through severalappointments of elders and the
process is not rigorous enough.
(06:03):
We first of all want desire.
Do you desire it?
We don't do enough teaching onbiblical desire and most men in
today's culture, most people intoday's culture, would say well,
if a man wants it, there'ssomething wrong with him.
There must be something wrongwith him because he wants to be
in control, because that's whowe see in business, right?
(06:27):
And yet I appreciate someonewho wants to be a fireman and
they want to save lives.
They want it so badly, they'rewilling to put themselves at
risk and run into burningbuildings to save somebody and
(06:48):
they're willing to stand up infront of people and say I am
qualified, I know what I'm doing, I want to help you, Please
hire me.
And I think that's the kind ofdesire that we need in men.
Now, the first qualificationbefore the list, the litany of
(07:14):
qualifications that comes in 1Timothy 3 and Titus 1, is that a
man should be above reproach,and we don't do enough teaching
on that.
What does that mean?
It means that if he's sinned,he's forgiven.
(07:34):
He can't be blamed, and westruggle with this in the church
.
There's this very legalisticview that the man has to be
perfect and never have sinned.
We look at all thesequalifications and instead we
(07:59):
should be saying, well, if he'slacking in hospitality, maybe we
ought to help him, Becausethat's something that's
important, you know.
Or if he's not right with God,maybe we ought to help him,
because he needs to learn that.
And so let's take our time andlet's develop these people, the
(08:26):
husbands and the wives.
Let's develop them, but theyshould be above reproach, that
is, they could be bad people atone time.
Yeah, Paul was a bad person atone time.
You and I were bad people atone time, but you know we're
above reproach.
We've taken care that Goddoesn't blame us, and neither
(08:49):
should the congregation.
One of my beta review teammembers said you know what, Doug
?
Every one of thesequalifications for an elder is
also an attribute of everyChristian, man and woman.
Every Christian needs to havethese qualifications.
Yeah, there's a quote.
I want to read a quote to youthat I also put in the book, but
(09:11):
it's from Charles Hodge Jr.
He wrote a little book.
It's a teeny little book.
It's called my Elders.
So it says Without qualifiedmen desiring the office for
righteous purposes, the push toform an eldership or add to the
existing eldership only leads totrouble.
God's plan is a man.
(09:32):
1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1describe God's man.
They involve character,maturity, spirituality, size.
Don't put little men in highchurch places.
(09:53):
There are few qualities in saidlistings, not true of mature
Christians.
No-transcript.
Don't work at becoming an elder.
Work at becoming a maturedChristian.
Be God's man for God's work.
(10:13):
God calls men, not angels.
Men can qualify.
Perfection is not expected.
Then he goes on.
We know we should have eldersin every congregation because it
is God's will, Acts 14.23,Titus 1.5.
We must cease devising othergoverning systems and spend more
(10:35):
time developing qualifiedelders.
Even though a church couldtemporarily exist without elders
, we must never be satisfiedwith that condition and be
persistent in improving.
So what do I tell congregationsthat are afraid?
I say well, every time the menget together.
(11:00):
Every time the congregationgets together as a whole, one of
the subjects ought to be howare we doing with developing the
right kind of leadership here.
I've been in too many meetingswhere we didn't talk about that.
We have to start when Brad isyoung and we have to mentor him.
(11:28):
Take him on a hospital visit.
I tell that story about BillJones, one of the elders at
Congregation where you and Iwere first at Brad a long, long,
long time ago, and he just diedrecently at close to 100.
Yeah, but he got to see my book, he got to see the quote.
(11:48):
I visited him and shared withhim the quote I had about him.
But it's one of the things hedid.
He says, doug, let's go on ahospital visit.
And I didn't like to do that.
I didn't like to publicly pray,I didn't like to do a lot of
things, I didn't like to putmyself out there, but he said,
(12:08):
no, come on.
I didn't like to do a lot ofthings, I didn't like to put
myself out there, but he said,no, come on.
And he was sharing with mesomething that was rich but
uncomfortable in a way, becauseyou're visiting somebody and you
don't know what to say, and hetaught me.
So that was kind of like a mini, mini, little eldership right
(12:30):
there in the hospital room.
That's what it's all about.
BT Irwin (12:35):
A recurring theme in your book is that the Lord
desires elderships, not so muchelders.
So your emphasis is on becomingan eldership.
What do you mean by that?
Doug Pell (12:48):
How many elders names do you know out of the New
Testament?
We know a lot of evangelists,right?
Yeah, we know their names.
I don't know.
I mean, we know that Peter wasan elder Peter, yeah, maybe John
, maybe the men are kind ofhidden in this thing called the
(13:08):
eldership.
This, this one body, someonekind of god, god help us.
They need to spend more timetogether and try to figure out
how they're going to be oneinstead of five.
So that's what I mean.
One of the first things theyshould do is figure out how
(13:29):
they're going to approach everysubject from a teaching, a
doctrinal point of view.
What is God's view of this?
Not what my view is.
What's God's view?
I've also heard over the yearsthat, well, it's best, when you
appoint elders, to have an oddnumber of elders.
Well, why is that?
Well, it's best when youappoint elders to have an odd
number of elders?
I go well.
(13:50):
Why?
Well, because if there's adisagreement.
You can have two against one orthree against two, so you always
have an odd number, so youdon't have a tie and therefore
you can move forward.
And I go.
Well, maybe those elders needto.
Every time they get together,they need to read John, chapter
(14:15):
17, again and again and again.
Jesus' prayer for unity to beone, to be the same as God.
So I illustrate it this way Ifthere's five elders, I think
with every decision they make,the vote ought to be six to zero
(14:37):
.
And if you don't know how toget that sixth vote from five
elders, then that's where youneed to start.
How are we going to figure outwhat God wants for this decision
we're making?
BT Irwin (14:51):
I bet some people listen to that and say, well,
that's impossible, especially inthis day and age where people
seem to have forgotten how toget along and work things out.
And there are places in thebook where you are emphatic that
we are going to stay here untilwe are all in agreement on this
(15:12):
.
So call your wives and say I'mnot going to be home for dinner
tonight.
Bring dinner in.
Or yeah, you actually said.
I drew a smiley face next to itCall the congregation and tell
them to bring in food, becausethe elders are going to stay in
this room until they reachagreement.
You've been a part ofelderships.
Was that the reality of theelderships on which you serve?
(15:36):
That you would stay atsomething until you would have
that unanimous vote, that, yeah,we are all in agreement on this
and we feel like we're votingwith God on this.
Doug Pell (15:47):
How do we become one?
We've got to work at it, and wegot to do that before we try to
do anything else.
BT Irwin (15:55):
Well, how about this one In the book you wrote, quote
the more pie I ate, thehealthier the church became, end
quote.
What do you mean by that?
Doug Pell (16:03):
I call it living room leadership.
Yeah, living room leadership,living room leadership, yeah,
living room leadership.
When my fellow elder and Iwould sit down in living rooms
and kitchens, that's somethingwe purposefully did and we said
we're coming to your houseThursday night, you know,
(16:24):
because we just want to get toknow you, we want to learn from
you, we want to listen, we wantto do the work of an elder
because we care about you.
So I would say, please don'tfeed us Our wives are waiting at
(16:45):
home to feed us, but every timePeach pie was my favorite, the
congregations I held in for knewthat I got peach pie, peach,
cobbler, peach, this, everythingpeach which is fine.
One of the things we did inthose living rooms was after we
talked about their family, theirexperience, their experience.
(17:09):
How were they converted?
What's your?
Story.
And then we would turn and say,well, we're here for really a
purpose and that is we know whowe are and we know what we're
supposed to be doing and we careabout you.
We want to help you get toheaven.
How can we help you?
That was the best part aboutbeing an elder, but there was
(17:31):
that we found that just being inliving rooms, whether we ate
pie or cake or I just I kind ofkind of grabbed onto this, this
pie thing.
But the more pie we ate, whichmeans the more living rooms and
kitchens we were in, the betterthe church was the contention,
(17:52):
the hospitality grew.
It had a far-reaching impactbecause we were in one couple's,
one family's living room and,you know, sometimes with tears
in their eyes, they would saywe've never had an elder here,
(18:13):
never had, we've never done this.
We've been in the church for 40years.
But we discovered we ate pie andwe discovered marriages that
were in trouble, children thatwere out of duty, out of service
.
We found a family that hadnever been baptized.
(18:35):
Everyone thought they had beenbaptized, everyone thought they
were never in the church.
They said, well, we just neverthought.
We, you know, you've beenlistening to these sermons for
40 years Wow, 30 years.
Yes, you want to take care ofthat.
40 years Wow, 30 years.
Yes, you want to take care ofthat.
Found out why one brother neverwanted to be called on the
Bible class.
Well, he couldn't read.
(18:55):
We didn't know that he wasfaking.
He was in his 50s.
Isn't that amazing?
Yes, which you can learn whenyou eat pie.
I'm not the same size I waswhen I was at church camp.
I'm a little bit heavier.
BT Irwin (19:12):
Yeah, my parents.
When I was a kid you know mydad being the minister at the
church they went on a mission tohost every household in our
congregation in our home forSunday dinner.
And I think it took about threeyears for every household at
(19:37):
our congregation to have Sundaydinner with us in our home.
That's why I hate lasagna tothis day, because my mom made so
many lasagnas and just put themin the freezer the chest
freezer in the basement, andevery week it was lasagna.
So to this day I don't likelasagna because I ate a lot of
lasagna.
(19:57):
But for elders to be in thehomes of members I shared this
with a couple of elders a fewweeks ago after I'd read this
chapter in the book, and theyacted as if what he's saying is
impossible.
Who has the time to do that?
Who has the time to visit thatmany homes?
(20:19):
And it depends on the size ofyour congregation.
But living room leadership,which is a phrase that comes up
over and over and over again inyour book, it sounds to me like
when you think of eldership,that is essential.
It is essential to be in thehomes of the members.
Is there an ideal eldership tomembership ratio?
Doug Pell (20:41):
I had met a fellow.
I think he was a professor atAbilene years ago.
He wrote a couple of books.
Well, I think he was aprofessor at Abilene years ago.
He wrote a couple of books.
I met him.
His name was Flavel Yakeley.
I got a hold of one of hisbooks on church leadership and
organization.
That's the title.
It was published in 1986,church Leadership and
(21:03):
Organization.
He was almost like astatistician for the church.
He would survey congregationsto find out what works, what
doesn't work.
He had a rule of the bestratios for the best growth rate
in a congregation.
He called it the rule of one,two, four For every 200 members.
(21:27):
The best ratio for growth ratefor every 200 members is one
preacher, two elders, fourdeacons.
One preacher, two elders, fourdeacons.
Okay, here's the short answer.
I don't know.
Again, I'm a small church kindof guy.
(21:50):
If you can find two men thatare qualified, that's good
enough, right, and you make itwork.
And if you do it right and ifyou get the right, you appoint
the right deacons and they dotheir work well, you can grow
(22:11):
the church rapidly and not addanother elder.
You can do a lot with twoelders.
BT Irwin (22:21):
So it all depends.
There is so much in the bookabout the trust that the
congregation has in elders andthe transparency of an eldership
before the congregation and youjust made the point yourself
it's those personalrelationships, it's that being
hosted by the members thatbuilds that trust and that
transparency and allows theeldership to anticipate problems
(22:48):
that may arise or to spotopportunities and to serve the
people well and to love thepeople well.
So that takes energy.
You said it yourself severalplaces.
You talk about the lack ofsleep and being.
I think you said something likewhen you become an elder you're
(23:08):
signing up for insomnia orsomething like that.
So you don't hide from the factthat this kind of leadership
requires giving up giving upsleep, giving up time with time,
doing other activities that youmight enjoy.
But it's essential to the kindof relationship that elders and
(23:30):
their congregations have.
So just to do the math, youthink the more elders, the more
qualified elders, the bigger theeldership in a congregation,
the better, because you havemore elders and more living
rooms.
You write quite a bit aboutdeacons in this book, even
though it's about eldership, andhere's a quote.
It's a really curious one Quotelocal churches' most common
(23:52):
fatal assumption is thecomfortable attraction of elders
to be deacons, end quote.
That's a provocative quotethere.
So what do you mean by that?
Doug Pell (24:04):
It's a failure of every leadership team and every
organization church, government,business, family.
It's not understanding yourrole, roles, responsibilities
(24:25):
and authority.
That's what I try to get acrossin this book For an elder.
You have a role to play, youhave responsibilities to take
care of, you have authority.
That's been given to you andyou got to know that and you got
(24:46):
to work towards becoming thatperson.
Once the elders reallyunderstand here's what I'm
supposed to be doing.
They should be working towardsthat and it's being the
visionary, being the overseer.
The Greek word is episkopos, butit's two words.
(25:08):
It's episkopos, but it's twowords.
It's episkopos, skopos, meaningyou know, putting on field
glasses or microscope, or youknow, trying to find, to burrow
in and understand.
You know the sheep and over,scoping, overlooking we get our
(25:34):
English word skeptical from thescopos.
We have to understand whatshepherding is, what a leader,
what a caretaker, what a manager, what a instructor, what a
steward, what a centric, whatall those attributes of an elder
are.
But there's this tendency towant to go back because the
deacons aren't doing their work,because we haven't trained them
(25:54):
, we haven't told them what theproblem is, our communication
skills are poor, and so thishappens in business all the time
.
I might as well just do itmyself.
I'll just do it myself.
It's easier to be a deacon, andso we kind of gravitate to what
we know we can do.
We feel good at the end of theday.
Hey, I did something, I'm tired, I did it, but we didn't do the
(26:19):
work of an elder you tell a fewtimes in the book is about as
you were coming up in yourcareer.
BT Irwin (26:35):
You eventually reached the level of senior leadership
and one of the discoveries youmade when you reached senior
leadership is that, oh, I'm nothere to work in the business
anymore, now it's my job to workon the business.
And you apply that to eldershipElders their work is not
(26:59):
working in the church, theirwork is working on the church.
And the deacons work in thechurch and show the members of
the congregation how to work inthe congregation, show the
members of the congregation howto work in the congregation.
And so when we go back to thatone-two-four ratio that you
mentioned from Flavel-Yakely,it's interesting.
I think some people mightassume that there would be more
(27:24):
elders than deacons, and I'veseen congregations where there
are many more elders thandeacons.
But you'll notice from thatratio one-two-four, there are
twice as many deacons as elders,and I would guess that's
because deacons are the ones whoare working in the congregation
, while it's the elders who areworking on the congregation.
Doug Pell (27:41):
If I wanted to start my own cookie business, because
I love cookies, I love chocolatechip cookies and I'm really
good at it, and I have an ovenand I know how to do it and I've
got my grandmother's recipe andI give my kids those cookies
(28:03):
and they take them to school andthey share them with their
friends and their friends'mothers come over and want to
know where did you get thosecookies?
And they encourage me to expand.
And so I don't just bakecookies for my children, I bake
them for the neighborhood.
And then they say, well, youneed to turn this into a
(28:26):
business.
And so you say, well, okay, andyou kind of jump off that cliff
and go I'm going to be anentrepreneur, I'm going to start
a business, and you bakecookies and you hire staff and
you have quality controlproblems and you've got
(28:47):
production problems.
All of a sudden you realize thebusiness is failing because
you're not getting customers,you're not paying attention to
the business, you're too busymaking cookies.
Most businesses that start todaywill fail within five years.
(29:11):
The majority will fail withinfive years.
The majority will fail withinfive years.
Almost all of them will failwithin 10.
And that concept, I think,applies to the church.
I think there are a lot ofchurches that are dead and they
don't know it.
(29:32):
I know that's kind of a drastic, awful thing to say, but it's
because we're busy bakingcookies and making cookies,
which we love to do and we neverstep out and get to perspective
and get to 20,000 feet to say,okay, where are we headed,
(29:52):
what's the vision?
Are we painting the rightpicture?
Are we hiring the right people?
Are we developing the rightculture?
And you can substitute churchfor business here, and I don't
mean to be common or profaneabout it, but I think sometimes
that's the best parable to use.
BT Irwin (30:10):
I think sometimes that's the best parable to use.
My dad said to me a few yearsago when we were talking about
elderships.
He said in a lot of churchesthe minister does the work of
the elders, the elders do thework of the deacons, and then
the deacons don't know whythey're there.
And he was joking.
(30:31):
But I thought of that joke alot.
It's not a joke, I know.
as I read your book I thoughtthis is exactly what dad was
talking about.
I didn't expect to read a lotabout deacons when I picked up
the book and started reading,but you devote quite a bit of
time to deacons because I thinkyour point is when deacons are
working, then the elders areable to do their work on the
(30:52):
congregation.
And so at one point you say ifdeacons are the crux of the
church's work, you go on to saythe elders' wives are quote the
crux or heart of the church'sleadership end quote.
And you go on to paint apicture of wives being quite
intimate with and participativein the life and work of a
(31:14):
congregation's eldership.
I could summarize what youwrote by saying no wives, no
eldership.
Doug Pell (31:19):
Every chapter has a title and then it has one of my
quotes underneath it and this isthe quote I pulled out Is she
an exceptional example of theChristian woman or is she just
good enough to not disqualifyher husband?
Yeah, yeah, it's quite a quote.
It's kind of in your face,isn't it?
(31:40):
I've gotten some people comingat me going Doug, you should not
have said that, no, no, Ireally should have said that.
No, no, I really should have.
(32:00):
The wife is not just this thingthat hangs on to the elder.
The wife is integral.
I can't do the work of an elderwithout my wife.
She just doesn't qualify me.
She helps me.
I'm not really good with youknow, there's ewe lambs and ram
lambs.
Right, there's male and femalesheep and I know how to talk to
(32:24):
the ram lambs pretty well.
I'm not that good at talking tothe ewe lambs and she helped me
.
I was asked one time.
It was a new eldership that wehad formed and I was asked by
one of the other elders well,let's talk about our wives?
(32:45):
And he asked me bluntly what doyou tell your wife after an
elders meeting?
And I knew what he meant.
Do you reveal what we'retalking about?
And I know I get pushback fromother elders that are out there
(33:06):
teaching and trying to talkabout the eldership.
Some would say, no, you shouldbe pretty secretive.
The eldership is really a placewhere you have high
confidentiality.
I agree, but I told him, toldthe rest of the elders.
(33:28):
I said it's my call If I thinkthat my wife can handle a
subject sometimes she can'tshe's very protective of me,
right but if I think she canhandle it and if I think I can,
that the eldership would bestronger if I got her opinion,
(33:49):
I'll talk about this with her.
It's always been the case andthat's what I recommend.
I mean I trust my judgment inthat matter and I tell the
elders whether I'm going toreveal this to my wife or not.
(34:09):
I mean I'm not divulgingsomething that I haven't got
pre-authorization from theelders.
1 Timothy 3.11 says Likewisetheir wives, elders and deacons
this is 1 Timothy 3, must berespectful, not slanders,
self-controlled, dependable inall things, dependable in all
things, faithful in all things.
That kind of encompasseseverything that a Christian
(34:30):
woman is supposed to be andshe's supposed to know when to
hold her tongue and when to keepprivate private and not be
blabbering.
And because that kind of a wifewill destroy an eldership.
BT Irwin (34:47):
You write so much about transparency in the book.
You write so much abouttransparency in the book and
it's refreshing to me becauseI've been a part of
congregations where eldershipswent behind closed doors, made
decisions and then announcedthose decisions to the
congregation and thecongregation never saw them
(35:08):
coming.
And so you write a lot aboutthe lengths elderships should go
to be transparent tocongregations.
One of the things you say anelder should never say is just
trust me on that.
Just trust me on that.
Would you want to talk aboutwhy that's something an elder
should never say to a member ofa congregation?
Doug Pell (35:31):
Well, number one it's dismissive.
So right off the bat you knowyou've taken their concern.
Their question is just anindication of their concern and
you just turned it around onthem and said none of your
(35:51):
business.
And you just turned it around onthem and said none of your
business.
So that's why I said don't youknow, just don't trigger.
Don't trigger that problem.
Many leaderships, manyelderships, lead in secrecy.
That's what you're talkingabout.
They don't need to know.
I've always believed thattransparency just breeds trust.
(36:12):
Secrecy leads to mistrust.
Think about who God is.
God is the most transparentleader we've ever known.
He reveals his diary.
He told some of the juicieststories about the greatest
(36:34):
people in the world.
So my caution to every elder isto err on the side of
transparency.
BT Irwin (36:40):
Well, chapter three of your book is titled Read to
Lead and you've given elders 558pages of reading on eldership.
The book is Set in Order theThings that Are Lacking Lessons
in Biblical Leadership nowavailable from Sane Publications
, and the author is Doug Pell.
Coach.
(37:00):
Thanks for being on the show.
Doug Pell (37:01):
It's been my pleasure , Brad.
Thank you for the opportunity.
BT Irwin (37:07):
We hope that something you heard in this episode
encouraged, enlightened orenriched you in some way.
If it did, thanks be to God andplease pay it forward.
Subscribe to this.
Thank you and suggestions topodcast at christianchronicleorg
(37:31):
.
Don't forget our ministry toinform and inspire Christians
and congregations around theworld is a non-profit ministry
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So if you like the show and youwant to keep it going and make
it even better, please make atax-deductible gift to the
Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg.
Slash donate.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis a production of the
(37:53):
Christian Chronicle Incorporated, informing and inspiring Church
of Christ congregations,members and ministries around
the world since 1943.
The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Audrey
Jackson, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and executive director
and CEO Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis written, directed, hosted
(38:14):
and edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan at
Podcast your Voice Studios inthe Motor City, detroit,
michigan, usa.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
We're bringing you the storiesshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
I'm BT Irwin.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
Last fall, the Barna Groupreleased a study that found
almost three out of four churchleaders in the United States
(00:27):
fear that their congregationswill decline because of
inadequate leadership.
Half of those respondents wenton to say that their
congregations do not prioritizetraining and developing new
leaders.
What about you and yourcongregation?
How would you describe thehealth and vitality of your
congregation's eldership?
How would you describe theintention and investments your
(00:50):
congregation is making in futureelders?
Today we're talking aboutcongregational leadership, with
emphasis on how the Bibleimagines that leadership coming
from healthy and vibrantelderships.
We'll hear from a man whobrings decades of experience as
both an elder and a leader incorporate America.
Doug Pell is an executive coachand retired executive with
(01:10):
decades of experience as asenior finance officer in the US
defense industry.
He also put in decades ofservice and elderships at two
Church of Christ congregationsin Ohio and Michigan.
Now full disclosure Doug and hiswife Kathy are longtime friends
of my own family, my parents,going back to the days when they
were starting their families inAkron, ohio, back in the 1970s.
(01:31):
Doug's son, tim, grew up withme, was my roommate for two
years at Harding University andis still one of my best friends,
and Doug was my cabin counselorwhen I was eight years old and
going to church camp for thefirst time.
He took care of me that firstnight when I ate too much candy
and threw up outside the cabin,and he comforted me on nights
when I got homesick.
So we go way, way back, butthat is not why he's here today.
(01:52):
Doug took all of his experiencein eldership and leadership,
added several years of intensebiblical study and wrote Set and
Order the Things that AreLacking Lessons in Biblical
Leadership now available fromSANE Publications.
It is 558 pages of Lessons inBiblical Leadership, which, doug
, I will point out, makes it thelongest book I've read for this
(02:12):
show.
How long did it take you towrite this book?
Doug Pell (02:16):
I'd been thinking about it for a long time, but
the moment I set pen to paperstarted the research until
publication was five years Now.
The last year was searching fora publisher, but so I'll say
three and a half to four years,you know, broken broken up by.
You know vacation here andthere and went and said hi to my
(02:40):
wife and yeah, let's get intoit.
BT Irwin (02:46):
The title is Set in Order the Things that Are
Lacking, which comes from theApostle Paul's letter to Titus,
chapter 1, verse 5.
That verse comes up again andagain and again throughout the
book.
Did you, or do you observe orperceive that something is
lacking in more than a fewcongregations?
And I'll just I'll hand you aquote from the book.
(03:07):
Here's your quote the churchthat Jesus died for has been
going through a test ofleadership for a very long time.
We have been failing the test,end quote.
Tell us a little bit about theurgency that you perceive there
and why you feel like this bookis needed now.
Doug Pell (03:26):
The quote was a reminder that it's been going.
It's been going badly for thechurch ever since the first
century.
In Acts 20, 29,.
Paul said I know that after mydeparture he's talking to the
Ephesian elders in Melinus.
After my departure, savagewolves will come in among you,
(03:48):
not sparing the flock, and fromamong your own selves he's
talking to the elders men willarise speaking perverse things
to draw away the disciples afterthem.
From everything we can tellfrom history, it really was
Ephesus where this grandapostasy happened to the church.
(04:11):
So Paul was right.
Most all apostasies that we cansee in the church started with
the problem of the organizationof the church, the leadership of
the church.
As the leadership goes, so goesthe church.
BT Irwin (04:31):
When I finished the book, I shut the book feeling a
little bit overwhelmed andthinking, wow, who could ever
become an elder?
Who could ever become an elder?
(05:01):
And so, in a time where itfeels like we're struggling so
much with a shortage ofqualified men for many things in
society, not least the Churchof Christ, how is it that?
Well, let me say it this wayyou know, when congregations
read this book, or when peoplethat are elders or may become
elders read this book, they maythink the standards are harder
and higher to attain than I everimagined.
So what is a congregation to dowhen too few men meet the
standard of eldership?
Doug Pell (05:20):
I kind of got this same idea halfway into the book.
I went man, people are going toread this and go.
We cannot.
We thought we could appointelders and now we can't.
I went.
That's okay.
I think it's important thatwe're slow to hire.
This is just something welearned in business.
(05:41):
Let's be slow to hire, let's beslow to put people in positions
of authority, let's make sure.
I've been through severalappointments of elders and the
process is not rigorous enough.
(06:03):
We first of all want desire.
Do you desire it?
We don't do enough teaching onbiblical desire and most men in
today's culture, most people intoday's culture, would say well,
if a man wants it, there'ssomething wrong with him.
There must be something wrongwith him because he wants to be
in control, because that's whowe see in business, right?
(06:27):
And yet I appreciate someonewho wants to be a fireman and
they want to save lives.
They want it so badly, they'rewilling to put themselves at
risk and run into burningbuildings to save somebody and
(06:48):
they're willing to stand up infront of people and say I am
qualified, I know what I'm doing, I want to help you, Please
hire me.
And I think that's the kind ofdesire that we need in men.
Now, the first qualificationbefore the list, the litany of
(07:14):
qualifications that comes in 1Timothy 3 and Titus 1, is that a
man should be above reproach,and we don't do enough teaching
on that.
What does that mean?
It means that if he's sinned,he's forgiven.
(07:34):
He can't be blamed, and westruggle with this in the church
.
There's this very legalisticview that the man has to be
perfect and never have sinned.
We look at all thesequalifications and instead we
(07:59):
should be saying, well, if he'slacking in hospitality, maybe we
ought to help him, Becausethat's something that's
important, you know.
Or if he's not right with God,maybe we ought to help him,
because he needs to learn that.
And so let's take our time andlet's develop these people, the
(08:26):
husbands and the wives.
Let's develop them, but theyshould be above reproach, that
is, they could be bad people atone time.
Yeah, Paul was a bad person atone time.
You and I were bad people atone time, but you know we're
above reproach.
We've taken care that Goddoesn't blame us, and neither
(08:49):
should the congregation.
One of my beta review teammembers said you know what, Doug
?
Every one of thesequalifications for an elder is
also an attribute of everyChristian, man and woman.
Every Christian needs to havethese qualifications.
Yeah, there's a quote.
I want to read a quote to youthat I also put in the book, but
(09:11):
it's from Charles Hodge Jr.
He wrote a little book.
It's a teeny little book.
It's called my Elders.
So it says Without qualifiedmen desiring the office for
righteous purposes, the push toform an eldership or add to the
existing eldership only leads totrouble.
God's plan is a man.
(09:32):
1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1describe God's man.
They involve character,maturity, spirituality, size.
Don't put little men in highchurch places.
(09:53):
There are few qualities in saidlistings, not true of mature
Christians.
No-transcript.
Don't work at becoming an elder.
Work at becoming a maturedChristian.
Be God's man for God's work.
(10:13):
God calls men, not angels.
Men can qualify.
Perfection is not expected.
Then he goes on.
We know we should have eldersin every congregation because it
is God's will, Acts 14.23,Titus 1.5.
We must cease devising othergoverning systems and spend more
(10:35):
time developing qualifiedelders.
Even though a church couldtemporarily exist without elders
, we must never be satisfiedwith that condition and be
persistent in improving.
So what do I tell congregationsthat are afraid?
I say well, every time the menget together.
(11:00):
Every time the congregationgets together as a whole, one of
the subjects ought to be howare we doing with developing the
right kind of leadership here.
I've been in too many meetingswhere we didn't talk about that.
We have to start when Brad isyoung and we have to mentor him.
(11:28):
Take him on a hospital visit.
I tell that story about BillJones, one of the elders at
Congregation where you and Iwere first at Brad a long, long,
long time ago, and he just diedrecently at close to 100.
Yeah, but he got to see my book, he got to see the quote.
(11:48):
I visited him and shared withhim the quote I had about him.
But it's one of the things hedid.
He says, doug, let's go on ahospital visit.
And I didn't like to do that.
I didn't like to publicly pray,I didn't like to do a lot of
things, I didn't like to putmyself out there, but he said,
(12:08):
no, come on.
I didn't like to do a lot ofthings, I didn't like to put
myself out there, but he said,no, come on.
And he was sharing with mesomething that was rich but
uncomfortable in a way, becauseyou're visiting somebody and you
don't know what to say, and hetaught me.
So that was kind of like a mini, mini, little eldership right
(12:30):
there in the hospital room.
That's what it's all about.
BT Irwin (12:35):
A recurring theme in your book is that the Lord
desires elderships, not so muchelders.
So your emphasis is on becomingan eldership.
What do you mean by that?
Doug Pell (12:48):
How many elders names do you know out of the New
Testament?
We know a lot of evangelists,right?
Yeah, we know their names.
I don't know.
I mean, we know that Peter wasan elder Peter, yeah, maybe John
, maybe the men are kind ofhidden in this thing called the
(13:08):
eldership.
This, this one body, someonekind of god, god help us.
They need to spend more timetogether and try to figure out
how they're going to be oneinstead of five.
So that's what I mean.
One of the first things theyshould do is figure out how
(13:29):
they're going to approach everysubject from a teaching, a
doctrinal point of view.
What is God's view of this?
Not what my view is.
What's God's view?
I've also heard over the yearsthat, well, it's best, when you
appoint elders, to have an oddnumber of elders.
Well, why is that?
Well, it's best when youappoint elders to have an odd
number of elders?
I go well.
(13:50):
Why?
Well, because if there's adisagreement.
You can have two against one orthree against two, so you always
have an odd number, so youdon't have a tie and therefore
you can move forward.
And I go.
Well, maybe those elders needto.
Every time they get together,they need to read John, chapter
(14:15):
17, again and again and again.
Jesus' prayer for unity to beone, to be the same as God.
So I illustrate it this way Ifthere's five elders, I think
with every decision they make,the vote ought to be six to zero
(14:37):
.
And if you don't know how toget that sixth vote from five
elders, then that's where youneed to start.
How are we going to figure outwhat God wants for this decision
we're making?
BT Irwin (14:51):
I bet some people listen to that and say, well,
that's impossible, especially inthis day and age where people
seem to have forgotten how toget along and work things out.
And there are places in thebook where you are emphatic that
we are going to stay here untilwe are all in agreement on this
(15:12):
.
So call your wives and say I'mnot going to be home for dinner
tonight.
Bring dinner in.
Or yeah, you actually said.
I drew a smiley face next to itCall the congregation and tell
them to bring in food, becausethe elders are going to stay in
this room until they reachagreement.
You've been a part ofelderships.
Was that the reality of theelderships on which you serve?
(15:36):
That you would stay atsomething until you would have
that unanimous vote, that, yeah,we are all in agreement on this
and we feel like we're votingwith God on this.
Doug Pell (15:47):
How do we become one?
We've got to work at it, and wegot to do that before we try to
do anything else.
BT Irwin (15:55):
Well, how about this one In the book you wrote, quote
the more pie I ate, thehealthier the church became, end
quote.
What do you mean by that?
Doug Pell (16:03):
I call it living room leadership.
Yeah, living room leadership,living room leadership, yeah,
living room leadership.
When my fellow elder and Iwould sit down in living rooms
and kitchens, that's somethingwe purposefully did and we said
we're coming to your houseThursday night, you know,
(16:24):
because we just want to get toknow you, we want to learn from
you, we want to listen, we wantto do the work of an elder
because we care about you.
So I would say, please don'tfeed us Our wives are waiting at
(16:45):
home to feed us, but every timePeach pie was my favorite, the
congregations I held in for knewthat I got peach pie, peach,
cobbler, peach, this, everythingpeach which is fine.
One of the things we did inthose living rooms was after we
talked about their family, theirexperience, their experience.
(17:09):
How were they converted?
What's your?
Story.
And then we would turn and say,well, we're here for really a
purpose and that is we know whowe are and we know what we're
supposed to be doing and we careabout you.
We want to help you get toheaven.
How can we help you?
That was the best part aboutbeing an elder, but there was
(17:31):
that we found that just being inliving rooms, whether we ate
pie or cake or I just I kind ofkind of grabbed onto this, this
pie thing.
But the more pie we ate, whichmeans the more living rooms and
kitchens we were in, the betterthe church was the contention,
(17:52):
the hospitality grew.
It had a far-reaching impactbecause we were in one couple's,
one family's living room and,you know, sometimes with tears
in their eyes, they would saywe've never had an elder here,
(18:13):
never had, we've never done this.
We've been in the church for 40years.
But we discovered we ate pie andwe discovered marriages that
were in trouble, children thatwere out of duty, out of service
.
We found a family that hadnever been baptized.
(18:35):
Everyone thought they had beenbaptized, everyone thought they
were never in the church.
They said, well, we just neverthought.
We, you know, you've beenlistening to these sermons for
40 years Wow, 30 years.
Yes, you want to take care ofthat.
40 years Wow, 30 years.
Yes, you want to take care ofthat.
Found out why one brother neverwanted to be called on the
Bible class.
Well, he couldn't read.
(18:55):
We didn't know that he wasfaking.
He was in his 50s.
Isn't that amazing?
Yes, which you can learn whenyou eat pie.
I'm not the same size I waswhen I was at church camp.
I'm a little bit heavier.
BT Irwin (19:12):
Yeah, my parents.
When I was a kid you know mydad being the minister at the
church they went on a mission tohost every household in our
congregation in our home forSunday dinner.
And I think it took about threeyears for every household at
(19:37):
our congregation to have Sundaydinner with us in our home.
That's why I hate lasagna tothis day, because my mom made so
many lasagnas and just put themin the freezer the chest
freezer in the basement, andevery week it was lasagna.
So to this day I don't likelasagna because I ate a lot of
lasagna.
(19:57):
But for elders to be in thehomes of members I shared this
with a couple of elders a fewweeks ago after I'd read this
chapter in the book, and theyacted as if what he's saying is
impossible.
Who has the time to do that?
Who has the time to visit thatmany homes?
(20:19):
And it depends on the size ofyour congregation.
But living room leadership,which is a phrase that comes up
over and over and over again inyour book, it sounds to me like
when you think of eldership,that is essential.
It is essential to be in thehomes of the members.
Is there an ideal eldership tomembership ratio?
Doug Pell (20:41):
I had met a fellow.
I think he was a professor atAbilene years ago.
He wrote a couple of books.
Well, I think he was aprofessor at Abilene years ago.
He wrote a couple of books.
I met him.
His name was Flavel Yakeley.
I got a hold of one of hisbooks on church leadership and
organization.
That's the title.
It was published in 1986,church Leadership and
(21:03):
Organization.
He was almost like astatistician for the church.
He would survey congregationsto find out what works, what
doesn't work.
He had a rule of the bestratios for the best growth rate
in a congregation.
He called it the rule of one,two, four For every 200 members.
(21:27):
The best ratio for growth ratefor every 200 members is one
preacher, two elders, fourdeacons.
One preacher, two elders, fourdeacons.
Okay, here's the short answer.
I don't know.
Again, I'm a small church kindof guy.
(21:50):
If you can find two men thatare qualified, that's good
enough, right, and you make itwork.
And if you do it right and ifyou get the right, you appoint
the right deacons and they dotheir work well, you can grow
(22:11):
the church rapidly and not addanother elder.
You can do a lot with twoelders.
BT Irwin (22:21):
So it all depends.
There is so much in the bookabout the trust that the
congregation has in elders andthe transparency of an eldership
before the congregation and youjust made the point yourself
it's those personalrelationships, it's that being
hosted by the members thatbuilds that trust and that
transparency and allows theeldership to anticipate problems
(22:48):
that may arise or to spotopportunities and to serve the
people well and to love thepeople well.
So that takes energy.
You said it yourself severalplaces.
You talk about the lack ofsleep and being.
I think you said something likewhen you become an elder you're
(23:08):
signing up for insomnia orsomething like that.
So you don't hide from the factthat this kind of leadership
requires giving up giving upsleep, giving up time with time,
doing other activities that youmight enjoy.
But it's essential to the kindof relationship that elders and
(23:30):
their congregations have.
So just to do the math, youthink the more elders, the more
qualified elders, the bigger theeldership in a congregation,
the better, because you havemore elders and more living
rooms.
You write quite a bit aboutdeacons in this book, even
though it's about eldership, andhere's a quote.
It's a really curious one Quotelocal churches' most common
(23:52):
fatal assumption is thecomfortable attraction of elders
to be deacons, end quote.
That's a provocative quotethere.
So what do you mean by that?
Doug Pell (24:04):
It's a failure of every leadership team and every
organization church, government,business, family.
It's not understanding yourrole, roles, responsibilities
(24:25):
and authority.
That's what I try to get acrossin this book For an elder.
You have a role to play, youhave responsibilities to take
care of, you have authority.
That's been given to you andyou got to know that and you got
(24:46):
to work towards becoming thatperson.
Once the elders reallyunderstand here's what I'm
supposed to be doing.
They should be working towardsthat and it's being the
visionary, being the overseer.
The Greek word is episkopos, butit's two words.
(25:08):
It's episkopos, but it's twowords.
It's episkopos, skopos, meaningyou know, putting on field
glasses or microscope, or youknow, trying to find, to burrow
in and understand.
You know the sheep and over,scoping, overlooking we get our
(25:34):
English word skeptical from thescopos.
We have to understand whatshepherding is, what a leader,
what a caretaker, what a manager, what a instructor, what a
steward, what a centric, whatall those attributes of an elder
are.
But there's this tendency towant to go back because the
deacons aren't doing their work,because we haven't trained them
(25:54):
, we haven't told them what theproblem is, our communication
skills are poor, and so thishappens in business all the time
.
I might as well just do itmyself.
I'll just do it myself.
It's easier to be a deacon, andso we kind of gravitate to what
we know we can do.
We feel good at the end of theday.
Hey, I did something, I'm tired, I did it, but we didn't do the
(26:19):
work of an elder you tell a fewtimes in the book is about as
you were coming up in yourcareer.
BT Irwin (26:35):
You eventually reached the level of senior leadership
and one of the discoveries youmade when you reached senior
leadership is that, oh, I'm nothere to work in the business
anymore, now it's my job to workon the business.
And you apply that to eldershipElders their work is not
(26:59):
working in the church, theirwork is working on the church.
And the deacons work in thechurch and show the members of
the congregation how to work inthe congregation, show the
members of the congregation howto work in the congregation.
And so when we go back to thatone-two-four ratio that you
mentioned from Flavel-Yakely,it's interesting.
I think some people mightassume that there would be more
(27:24):
elders than deacons, and I'veseen congregations where there
are many more elders thandeacons.
But you'll notice from thatratio one-two-four, there are
twice as many deacons as elders,and I would guess that's
because deacons are the ones whoare working in the congregation
, while it's the elders who areworking on the congregation.
Doug Pell (27:41):
If I wanted to start my own cookie business, because
I love cookies, I love chocolatechip cookies and I'm really
good at it, and I have an ovenand I know how to do it and I've
got my grandmother's recipe andI give my kids those cookies
(28:03):
and they take them to school andthey share them with their
friends and their friends'mothers come over and want to
know where did you get thosecookies?
And they encourage me to expand.
And so I don't just bakecookies for my children, I bake
them for the neighborhood.
And then they say, well, youneed to turn this into a
(28:26):
business.
And so you say, well, okay, andyou kind of jump off that cliff
and go I'm going to be anentrepreneur, I'm going to start
a business, and you bakecookies and you hire staff and
you have quality controlproblems and you've got
(28:47):
production problems.
All of a sudden you realize thebusiness is failing because
you're not getting customers,you're not paying attention to
the business, you're too busymaking cookies.
Most businesses that start todaywill fail within five years.
(29:11):
The majority will fail withinfive years.
The majority will fail withinfive years.
Almost all of them will failwithin 10.
And that concept, I think,applies to the church.
I think there are a lot ofchurches that are dead and they
don't know it.
(29:32):
I know that's kind of a drastic, awful thing to say, but it's
because we're busy bakingcookies and making cookies,
which we love to do and we neverstep out and get to perspective
and get to 20,000 feet to say,okay, where are we headed,
(29:52):
what's the vision?
Are we painting the rightpicture?
Are we hiring the right people?
Are we developing the rightculture?
And you can substitute churchfor business here, and I don't
mean to be common or profaneabout it, but I think sometimes
that's the best parable to use.
BT Irwin (30:10):
I think sometimes that's the best parable to use.
My dad said to me a few yearsago when we were talking about
elderships.
He said in a lot of churchesthe minister does the work of
the elders, the elders do thework of the deacons, and then
the deacons don't know whythey're there.
And he was joking.
(30:31):
But I thought of that joke alot.
It's not a joke, I know.
as I read your book I thoughtthis is exactly what dad was
talking about.
I didn't expect to read a lotabout deacons when I picked up
the book and started reading,but you devote quite a bit of
time to deacons because I thinkyour point is when deacons are
working, then the elders areable to do their work on the
(30:52):
congregation.
And so at one point you say ifdeacons are the crux of the
church's work, you go on to saythe elders' wives are quote the
crux or heart of the church'sleadership end quote.
And you go on to paint apicture of wives being quite
intimate with and participativein the life and work of a
(31:14):
congregation's eldership.
I could summarize what youwrote by saying no wives, no
eldership.
Doug Pell (31:19):
Every chapter has a title and then it has one of my
quotes underneath it and this isthe quote I pulled out Is she
an exceptional example of theChristian woman or is she just
good enough to not disqualifyher husband?
Yeah, yeah, it's quite a quote.
It's kind of in your face,isn't it?
(31:40):
I've gotten some people comingat me going Doug, you should not
have said that, no, no, Ireally should have said that.
No, no, I really should have.
(32:00):
The wife is not just this thingthat hangs on to the elder.
The wife is integral.
I can't do the work of an elderwithout my wife.
She just doesn't qualify me.
She helps me.
I'm not really good with youknow, there's ewe lambs and ram
lambs.
Right, there's male and femalesheep and I know how to talk to
(32:24):
the ram lambs pretty well.
I'm not that good at talking tothe ewe lambs and she helped me
.
I was asked one time.
It was a new eldership that wehad formed and I was asked by
one of the other elders well,let's talk about our wives?
(32:45):
And he asked me bluntly what doyou tell your wife after an
elders meeting?
And I knew what he meant.
Do you reveal what we'retalking about?
And I know I get pushback fromother elders that are out there
(33:06):
teaching and trying to talkabout the eldership.
Some would say, no, you shouldbe pretty secretive.
The eldership is really a placewhere you have high
confidentiality.
I agree, but I told him, toldthe rest of the elders.
(33:28):
I said it's my call If I thinkthat my wife can handle a
subject sometimes she can'tshe's very protective of me,
right but if I think she canhandle it and if I think I can,
that the eldership would bestronger if I got her opinion,
(33:49):
I'll talk about this with her.
It's always been the case andthat's what I recommend.
I mean I trust my judgment inthat matter and I tell the
elders whether I'm going toreveal this to my wife or not.
(34:09):
I mean I'm not divulgingsomething that I haven't got
pre-authorization from theelders.
1 Timothy 3.11 says Likewisetheir wives, elders and deacons
this is 1 Timothy 3, must berespectful, not slanders,
self-controlled, dependable inall things, dependable in all
things, faithful in all things.
That kind of encompasseseverything that a Christian
(34:30):
woman is supposed to be andshe's supposed to know when to
hold her tongue and when to keepprivate private and not be
blabbering.
And because that kind of a wifewill destroy an eldership.
BT Irwin (34:47):
You write so much about transparency in the book.
You write so much abouttransparency in the book and
it's refreshing to me becauseI've been a part of
congregations where eldershipswent behind closed doors, made
decisions and then announcedthose decisions to the
congregation and thecongregation never saw them
(35:08):
coming.
And so you write a lot aboutthe lengths elderships should go
to be transparent tocongregations.
One of the things you say anelder should never say is just
trust me on that.
Just trust me on that.
Would you want to talk aboutwhy that's something an elder
should never say to a member ofa congregation?
Doug Pell (35:31):
Well, number one it's dismissive.
So right off the bat you knowyou've taken their concern.
Their question is just anindication of their concern and
you just turned it around onthem and said none of your
(35:51):
business.
And you just turned it around onthem and said none of your
business.
So that's why I said don't youknow, just don't trigger.
Don't trigger that problem.
Many leaderships, manyelderships, lead in secrecy.
That's what you're talkingabout.
They don't need to know.
I've always believed thattransparency just breeds trust.
(36:12):
Secrecy leads to mistrust.
Think about who God is.
God is the most transparentleader we've ever known.
He reveals his diary.
He told some of the juicieststories about the greatest
(36:34):
people in the world.
So my caution to every elder isto err on the side of
transparency.
BT Irwin (36:40):
Well, chapter three of your book is titled Read to
Lead and you've given elders 558pages of reading on eldership.
The book is Set in Order theThings that Are Lacking Lessons
in Biblical Leadership nowavailable from Sane Publications
, and the author is Doug Pell.
Coach.
(37:00):
Thanks for being on the show.
Doug Pell (37:01):
It's been my pleasure , Brad.
Thank you for the opportunity.
BT Irwin (37:07):
We hope that something you heard in this episode
encouraged, enlightened orenriched you in some way.
If it did, thanks be to God andplease pay it forward.
Subscribe to this.
Thank you and suggestions topodcast at christianchronicleorg
(37:31):
.
Don't forget our ministry toinform and inspire Christians
and congregations around theworld is a non-profit ministry
that relies on your generosity.
So if you like the show and youwant to keep it going and make
it even better, please make atax-deductible gift to the
Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg.
Slash donate.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis a production of the
(37:53):
Christian Chronicle Incorporated, informing and inspiring Church
of Christ congregations,members and ministries around
the world since 1943.
The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Audrey
Jackson, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and executive director
and CEO Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis written, directed, hosted
(38:14):
and edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan at
Podcast your Voice Studios inthe Motor City, detroit,
michigan, usa.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
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