Lifeway Research executive director Scott McConnell is back to talk about some new research that sheds light on current events.
For starters, church attendance and sales of Bibles are going up. Not only that, but Americans' regard for the Bible seems to be increasing. Young people, in particular are demonstrating more openness to learning about the Bible. Scott explores what could be driving these trends and what it means for Church of Christ congregations and members.
Next, we turn to Lifeway Research's ongoing research on how evangelical Christians say they feel and think about immigrants and immigration in the United States. On one hand, evangelical Christians say that they are pro-immigrant and pro-immigration by a wide margin; on the other hand, they continue to support politicians that seem to be anti-immigrant and anti-immigration. What explains this?
Link to Lifeway Research's latest findings on the increase in church attendance in the United States
Donate to support this ministry of "information and inspiration" at christianchronicle.org/donate
Send your comments, ideas, and suggestions to podcast@christianchronicle.org
Attend the 16th Annual Brotherhood of Men Conference this October 23 - 25 in Dallas, Texas. Click ewhiteministries.com to learn more and register.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
BT Irwin (00:03):
family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
We're bringing you the storiesshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
I'm BT Irwin May what you areabout to hear.
Bless you and honor God here.
(00:27):
Bless you and honor God.
So I have this secret dream thatI never shared with anyone
until now.
We here at the ChristianChronicle always want to know
how current events and trends inthe world affect Church of
Christ folks and what Church ofChrist folks think about them.
So here is my dream that somewealthy Church of Christ member
gives us a check with a numberfollowed by a bunch of zeros, so
we could endow something like aBarna Group or Pew Research
(00:50):
Center, but for the purpose ofresearching and surveying the
Church of Christ communityaround the world.
Well, maybe that dream willeventually come true now that I
put it out there, but until then, we have the next best thing,
and that is LifeWay research.
Now, lifeway is an arm of theSouthern Baptist Convention, but
their research covers allChrist believers and Christ
(01:12):
seekers in general, with specialfocus on what the general
public calls evangelicalChristians, since Church of
Christ folks check a lot of theboxes for what the public and
researchers consider evangelical.
We fit in that category for thepurpose of those who survey
religious groups, and thatincludes LifeWay Research, so a
lot of the studies they put outdo a nice job of helping us make
(01:33):
some strong inferences abouthow Church of Christ folks act,
feel and think.
In case you haven't noticed,there is a lot going on in the
world Church of Christ.
Folks are part of it and theyhave feelings and thoughts on it
.
We thought it might be a goodtime to figure out what some of
those feelings and thoughtsmight be, so we brought back our
old friend, scott McConnell,who is executive director at
(01:55):
Lifeway Research.
He's making his record-settingfourth appearance on the show.
Scott, welcome back again.
Well, thank you, it's an honor.
You come out with new stuffevery week, and I would
encourage those in our audiencethat like to keep up with trends
and really good research onwhat churches and Christians are
doing to subscribe to youremail newsletter, because every
(02:18):
day something new drops in theinbox and it's always worthwhile
.
I picked a few things that I'dlike to ask you about today that
I think our audience wouldreally care about, and I want to
start with something that mostpeople.
Actually, I can't think ofanyone who would think it's not
good news.
Bible sales in the UnitedStates were up 22% from October
2023 to October 2024.
(02:41):
And that's from the Wall StreetJournal.
That continues a year-on-yeartrend of Bible sales increases
that goes back to at least 2019.
Y'all recently published areport on whether Americans are
reading all of those new Biblesthey're buying, and what did you
find?
Scott McConnell (02:56):
We approached the question kind of creatively.
We didn't just ask howfrequently do you read the Bible
.
We ask Americans how much ofthe Bible have you read?
And two-thirds of Americanshave read half of the Bible or
less and in fact 9% have readnone of it.
But we do see that about morethan one in five have read all
(03:19):
of it or all of it more thanonce.
And so really, as you think ofAmericans yes, most Americans
own a Bible somewhere in theirhouse, but it's a pretty wide
range of people who've read alot of it or just a little bit
of it, and even their attitudesabout it many kind of read it.
We think of somebody picking upthe Bible and reading and then
(03:41):
the next day they pick up wherethey left off and keep reading.
But that kind of systematicapproach is actually only the
way about a third of Americansthink about reading the Bible.
Quite a few are actuallythinking of it as a reference
book.
So somebody tells them of apassage, they'll pick it up and
look at that, or, if they have aneed, they'll look that up, or
they'll just flip it open andsee where their eyes land and
(04:04):
start reading there.
BT Irwin (04:05):
I was surprised by the number of Americans who
reported that they feel like I'mgoing to say they feel like
they think they've read morethan half the Bible.
Were you surprised by that?
Scott McConnell (04:18):
I mean because there's still a lot of Americans
that call themselves aChristian.
You would expect that a lot ofthem will have read a good chunk
of the Bible, but the extremesare kind of where your eyes go
first, and so those aren't thatsurprising.
Part of it, too, is kind oftheir attitude of is this a book
(04:42):
that you read once, or is this?
You know, that's typically theway I think of books is.
You know, I'm going to read itonce, and if it's good, I'll
keep it on my shelf, but I'mprobably not going to read it
again.
14% of Americans think of theBible that way it's a book worth
reading once.
44%, though, believe it's abook to read over and over again
.
As believers, we really do seeit as something that can be life
(05:06):
transformational.
Really any day we pick it up,and 26% see it as a book to be
referenced as needed, and 6% sayit's not worth reading at all.
So that's a pretty low number.
BT Irwin (05:19):
And 9% are not sure.
One thing I noticed from yourresearch is that.
One thing I noticed from yourresearch is that, let's see, you
did a similar study.
Was it in 2019 or 2016?
2016, right, you did a similarstudy.
And back in 2016, the agecohort that and I forget how you
put it, I'll just say heremaybe engaged with the Bible the
(05:42):
least or knew the least amountof the Bible or read the least
of the Bible, was the youngestage cohort.
In your study, which wouldn'tsurprise many people.
It's the youngest age cohort,but in the findings that you
just released, that changed.
The age cohort that replacedthat youngest age cohort was the
(06:06):
65 and older age cohort.
Was that surprising and whatmight be the reason for that?
That really caught my attention.
Scott McConnell (06:17):
I mean, oftentimes what we see when we
look at an age breakout ondifferent beliefs is that young
people tend to be more curiousand yet they may not have really
thought through all the piecesyet of whatever belief we're
asking about or practice, andthe oldest adults tend to have
made up their mind and arepretty firm in it, whatever that
is.
And so you know we do see a lotof older adults kind of pretty
(06:38):
firm that I, you know, I reallydon't need the Bible on a
regular basis, even though theymay still hold on to some of the
beliefs.
BT Irwin (06:50):
I don't think you asked this question in your
study, but does it seem likeyounger cohorts may be
demonstrating more curiosityabout the Bible than they did,
say, 10 years ago?
Scott McConnell (06:57):
I'd probably use the word openness.
There's definitely an opennessthere.
There is a curiosity of justinterested in knowing more.
You know, that doesn'tnecessarily mean they've bought
into hey, I'm going to startreading because I'm so curious.
But there's an openness and soyou know, if somebody draws them
in, somebody recommendssomething, somebody has a
(07:20):
podcast on you know something inscripture, you know they're not
going to tune that out, they'regoing to be, they're going to
be curious, they're going to beinterested in, in what it has to
say.
Uh, because they're stillexploring.
BT Irwin (07:33):
Yeah, so, uh, here's one of the big findings from
your study of Americans Biblereading habits.
In 2016, just 36% of Americanssaid that the Bible is quote
true in quote and end quote, andthat's from Lifeway Research.
In the study you just released,that number is up to 48%, so
that's a big jump.
Also noteworthy is that 45% ofAmericans in your recent study
(07:58):
said the Bible is quotelife-changing end quote, and
that is up from 35% in 2016.
What were you all able tosurmise about the reasons for
this?
Scott McConnell (08:09):
Really, we believe that increasingly
there's less middle ground whenit comes to the Bible, and so we
see good news like this thosethat are open to the Bible,
those that are fascinated by itor are devout believers in what
the Bible has to say and what itis, are more positive.
(08:33):
But those who believe it's abook of myths, those that don't
believe it's authoritative intheir life, you know, they're
also more convinced of that, andso even in other surveys we've
done, we kind of see a 50-50split, and here we see some of
these positive adjectives aboutthe Bible really jumping up
(08:55):
toward that 50% mark.
So all those that are kind ofon the positive side, they may
have been leaning that waybefore, so they picked one or
two adjectives.
Now, you know most of thepositive adjectives, they're
willing to check and just goyeah, you know I'm in on this,
and so that's definitelyencouraging that culturally,
(09:17):
while we're in a secular age,it's not a secular age that has
no room for faith.
And so people who kind of sayno, I think there's something
more and I think that that moreis found in the Bible, you know
they're they're much morewilling to say it, they're much
more willing to, to identifywith that and and so that is
(09:39):
encouraging.
BT Irwin (09:40):
Can we find any causation or correlation there
that that explains why this hashappened over the last 10 years?
Scott McConnell (09:47):
We don't have anything direct in the data
itself.
You know our culture tends tobe a swinging pendulum on a lot
of different issues, so I thinkyou know just some of the
cultural conversations where youknow where morality and where
religious freedom is is kind ofhaving a day right now.
(10:13):
It creates a little more spaceto express, hey, yeah, that's
what I think too, whereas whensome of the social conversation
is pushing against Christianity,some of these same people may
be less willing to say out loudthat they lean that direction.
BT Irwin (10:31):
I had to check myself a little bit because I've had
conversations with people inrecent years.
I grew up in a small town inOhio and I say to people back
then in the 1980s in small townOhio, you assumed that everybody
believed the Bible, whetherthey went to church or not.
And I've said recently topeople that that isn't the case
(10:53):
anymore.
But these numbers you know, 48percent, 48 percent of Americans
you didn't say churchgoers, yousaid Americans in general say
the Bible is true.
It might indicate that there'smore openness now from our
neighbors who may not be membersof churches or may not be
practicing Christianity of anykind, more openness now to
(11:17):
engage on the Bible, because itseems like more of them now
would say yeah, I believe it'strue, teach me about it?
Scott McConnell (11:26):
Yes, absolutely , and that ties to our
conversation about youngeradults, younger Americans
conversation about youngeradults, younger Americans that,
while some of the generationthat is currently aging out and
passing away were fully boughtin, the younger generation is
still open, many of thempositive about the Bible, but
(11:47):
may not have the knowledge thatthe older generation had, and so
we've got to be inviting themin to study scripture.
Let's read some of it together,book club style, or, you know,
let's get them in the front doorof really exploring what the
Word of God says.
BT Irwin (12:03):
Well, speaking of invitations, you released a
report in March of this yearthat half of all Protestant
congregations in the UnitedStates are reporting attendance
growth since the end of thepandemic.
What can you tell us about thepeople who are coming back to
church, or coming to church forthe first time, you know?
Scott McConnell (12:22):
this snapshot of 2025 compared to the
beginning of 2023, you know,many of those numbers are people
returning from the pandemic,you know to see a majority of
churches indicating actualgrowth in worship attendance.
It's a rare thing We've notbeen in that space for a long,
long time, and so that's veryencouraging.
(12:45):
This means that a lot ofchurches have had good news
recently the vibe's gonna bebetter because, hey, we're a
little more full than we werelast year and the year before,
and so that definitely is apositive thing.
But, honestly, this is in themidst, though, of a long-term
(13:07):
trend that's heading the otherdirection, and so we don't want
to not celebrate, though, in theshort term, this has been good
and, as what are the financialadvisors say, you know, past
performance does not predict theoutcome of your future
investments, so we're not goingto say we're definitely going
back to that long-term trend,but you know we do want to
celebrate what's happened theselast couple of years of seeing
(13:29):
growth in so many churches, andbe praying that that continues.
BT Irwin (13:34):
But you do report that not all congregations are
growing equally.
Scott McConnell (13:39):
That is true, and some of that is just the
timing of the COVID rebound.
Most of the smallest churchesrebounded immediately, literally
as soon as their local areathey could meet again.
They did.
Some of them never had to stopbecause they were small enough
that there were no regulationsand so they bounced back
(14:01):
immediately.
The midsize, the large churchessome of them had to be closed
even for a year in some parts ofthe country, and so a lot of
people got out of the habit ofattending.
A lot of people got out of thehabit of attending and I think a
lot of church leaders werereally surprised by that just
how disconnected so many peoplegot so quickly and it was really
(14:25):
hard to get them back engaged.
It was almost like reaching anew person to get somebody to
come back.
And literally, when we set upthis question, we thought we
were post-pandemic.
And literally, when we set upthis question, we thought we
were post-pandemic.
You know, we thought, bycomparing to the beginning of 23
, that we wouldn't have much ofthe rebound from the pandemic.
And yet we see with thesenumbers that you know, the mid
and large sized churches, really, you know, we're still seeing
(14:47):
COVID rebound in 2023 and 24.
24.
And so you know, I do thinkwe're reaching the point now and
a number of denominations haveput out really positive numbers
this last year of conversions,of baptisms, and I think we're
to the point now where the newpeople who are coming to
churches are literally newpeople coming to Christ rather
(15:11):
than rebound folks who hadattended years ago, and so
that's also super encouragingnationally, but also super
encouraging for a localcongregation.
BT Irwin (15:21):
I want to ask you about that in a second.
Just a quick detour here.
I don't remember seeinganything in the research beyond
just the larger churches seem tobe seeing attendance growth
faster than smaller churches.
Did you learn anything aboutkind of a resorting of where
people are members post-pandemic?
(15:42):
For example?
I know our congregation, largercongregation.
There were several months thatwe were online but when we came
back the growth, the return tothe pews was slow.
A lot of people did not comeback to our congregation, they
went to other congregations andwe picked up some new people.
(16:02):
So does Lifeway Research haveany information about maybe how
members of churches resortedthemselves post pandemic?
We have not dug into that.
Scott McConnell (16:12):
There are a couple of good surveys by Pew
and Hartford that have beentracking some of that.
In general, the churches thatwere closed the shortest amount
of time tended to benefit themost, because devout believers
(16:33):
wanted to be attending churchand if their church was going to
be closed for months they'dfind somewhere else, and so
there were some folks moving.
Obviously some people just usedit as an excuse.
You know they were kind ofthinking of it.
Anyway, let's go ahead and shoparound or let's watch some
churches online if we're goingto be home, and let's try some
others that way.
And so you know it probablyaccelerated that more than
(16:57):
normal, for sure.
But yeah, a lot of the reboundagain was initially just people
coming back.
But you know, a lot of churchesreprioritized and they got back
to the basics when theyreopened and, I think, put a
little more emphasis onevangelism.
That often gets put on the backburner too often and just by
(17:21):
encouraging their congregationto have those conversations, to
be inviting people, I think it'sbearing fruit.
BT Irwin (17:28):
So it is bearing fruit .
You had a statistic and youyou're going to have to help me
through it again, but you hadthe statistic in your report
about the number of conversionsamong people who come to
congregations and it wasinteresting because you compared
it to a study you did in thepast, a few years ago, and it
(17:51):
broke down to something like howmany conversions per 100 people
years ago and it broke down tosomething like how many
conversions per 100 people, youknow, or something along those
lines.
You can explain that in asecond, but you already
mentioned that conversionspeople being baptized, people
committing their lives to Christhas been increasing in the
congregations that you'recovering in your research.
Scott McConnell (18:13):
We're seeing that in some of the
denominational statistics thathave come out from several
denominations this year.
Just some nice rebounds notonly in worship attendance but
also again in conversions.
However, they're tracking that,whether that's a profession of
faith or a baptism, and some ofthe ratios of attendees per new
(18:36):
commitment to Christ didn'tchange dramatically.
But at the same time you knowthe totals are looking like
they're heading in a really gooddirection.
BT Irwin (18:48):
OK, so that's all good stuff, let's let's turn to a
harder subject immigration or,to be more specific, immigrants
living in the United States.
It looks like it could be acase of heartburn for all of us
this summer, and I'm putting itthat way for reasons that will
become apparent in my questions.
Lifeway Research has beentracking evangelical attitudes
(19:09):
about immigrants and immigrationfor several years now, and you
updated that research back inFebruary of this year.
What did you want to find outby circling back to your body of
research on immigration?
Scott McConnell (19:21):
Normally we go several years in between.
You know a survey on the exactsame topic, but elections and
political campaigns tend tooversimplify issues you know
kind of get it down to are youleft or you're right?
You know kind of a kind of adichotomy and you know most of
the political polls showed thatimmigration was one of the top
issues.
Even even among pastors it wasone of the top issues for for
(19:45):
how they were going to vote andand so with with a lot of the
sentiment of of the politicalconversation being negative.
We just wanted to circle backto see if evangelical sentiments
on immigration had changed verymuch, because again it felt
like it was really a drivingissue in the political cycle and
in the past we've seen thatevangelicals have strong views
(20:09):
on immigration and wanted to seeif those had moved.
BT Irwin (20:13):
There may be this idea out there in mainstream news or
in the online world thatconservative Christians,
evangelical Christians, likefolks in the Church of Christ,
would you know, build a moat anda wall on every foot of the US
border and round up and deport40 million immigrants today if
they could.
But based on your research,that picture of Christians in
(20:34):
the United States really couldnot be further from the truth.
That's true, I mean even whenwe put.
Scott McConnell (20:39):
We try to be very objective in our survey,
and so we put positives, we putnegatives.
You know, some of the negativethings that we listed for
respondents, you know, is thenumber of recent immigrants to
the United States.
Is it a drain on economicresources?
Less than half of evangelicalsbelieve that's the case.
(21:01):
Is it a threat to the safety ofcitizens?
Just 43% say that's the case.
Is it a threat to law and order?
Just 37% say that's the case.
And then, mixed in there,almost the same percentages say
you know, the number of recentimmigrants is an opportunity to
introduce them to Jesus Christand it's an opportunity to show
(21:22):
them love.
And so you know, yes, there aresome negatives.
There is hey, this could impactmy security, this could impact
my wallet, and you know, for allAmericans, their wallet is
super important.
We know that from our elections.
We know that, you know in thecase, in any case.
But there's also this you knowthis desire to love immigrants.
(21:46):
And you know legal immigration86% of evangelicals say that
legal immigration is helpful.
And so a lot of the questionsreally come down to you know our
laws about what makes animmigrant legal, and oftentimes
those who come here come withlegally, but that status expires
or that status changes.
(22:06):
If it's a temporary status,that's for hundreds of thousands
.
That's changed recently.
Just with the stroke of a pen,they move from legal to illegal,
and and so you know what we'veseen over time is more and more
evangelicals saying Congressneeds to pass significant new
immigration legislation thisyear and so so in 2025, it's 80
(22:30):
percent of evangelicals say weneed to change the laws we have
on the books.
BT Irwin (22:36):
A number of the questions we ask show that
evangelicals want laws to beenforced, but there's also this
really strong sentiment that ourcurrent laws are not just so
the thing that strikes me and itmay be the spark for your
research is what a gulf existsbetween what evangelical
(22:58):
Christians say they believe andwant like a couple of the things
you just mentioned there inregard to immigrants and
immigration and, at the veryleast, what I'll call the
rhetoric and spectacle comingfrom the politicians to whom
evangelical Christians givetheir often unquestioning and
unwavering support.
(23:18):
And because of that I can seewhy Americans who are not
evangelical Christians form suchstrong opinions about what
evangelical Christians believeand what they want to do.
So I try really hard to be MrVanilla on the show, but
sometimes I have to ask aquestion because I can't come up
with a better way to ask it.
If there is such a big gapbetween what evangelical
(23:39):
Christians say they want and therhetoric and spectacle of the
politicians they support, isthat support simply a matter of
evangelical Christians feelinglike they have no other
political options, feeling likethey have no other political
options?
What I've heard from my ownfamily and friends is that they
don't like the politicians theychoose, but they like them a lot
better than the otherpoliticians.
(24:00):
So your research showed thatthe vast majority of evangelical
Christians actually wantcooperation among politicians to
bring about what we might callcommon sense policy.
That would actually keep mostimmigrants here and let more in
in a orderly fashion, right.
Yet for all we hear about thepower of the evangelical
(24:21):
Christian voting bloc, we'regetting no closer to that kind
of cooperation or policy.
So I guess I'm asking what hasyour research shown you about
why evangelical Christians keepsettling for policies and
politicians that seem so out ofstep with what evangelical
Christians keep saying theyactually want?
Scott McConnell (24:41):
As we have done surveys related to elections,
both this last one and previousones Americans and Christians
both tell us that they're notsingle issue voters.
Both tell us that they're notsingle issue voters.
And so, even when we havesomething that's cut and dry,
where there's large numbers ofevangelicals believing the same
(25:02):
thing, um, we sometimes see themvoting in a different direction
, or you know, because at thesame time, they're you know,
they're caring about theirwallet, they're caring about
immigration, they're caringabout abortion, they're caring
about healthcare, they're caringabout, you know, defense, and
(25:22):
so, in their mind, they'rehaving to sort through all of
that and pick a candidate, andand you know, every candidate is
a human being.
So they're they're having tosort through all of that and
pick a candidate, and you know,every candidate is a human being
, so they're all flawed.
The United States system isbuilt on compromise and we
normally think of that ascompromise happening in
Washington, but the compromisealso has to happen for a voter.
(25:43):
I'm going to have to vote forsomebody.
That's less than what I want.
I'm going to have to vote forsomebody.
That's less than what I want,and so, while in the voting
booth you can only make onedecision, the rest of the time
we can speak up and say, hey, Ivoted for this person, but I'm
not agreeing with them on thisissue.
(26:11):
I voted against this person andI still disagree with with them,
or I do agree with them on thisissue, and I think, as
Christians, we have to be lesswedded to our political party
and our political process andmore wedded to the principles of
the king of kings and reallyspeaking up for God's heart, and
really, all through scripture,we see that he has a heart for
(26:36):
what many translations refer toas a resident alien, somebody
born in another country wholives among you and you know,
just a direct command to thepeople of Israel to treat them
like they're one of you.
And unfortunately, in ourcountry we've probably for
(26:56):
political reasons, we've madethis a lot more complicated, and
every piece of the process ismore complicated.
Applying for permanent statusor applying for citizenship is
incredibly onerous andincredibly expensive, and so we
tend to end up treating peopleas less than us as citizens of
(27:20):
this country who live among us.
BT Irwin (27:23):
Your research touches on something I observe from my
time working with the ChristianChronicle.
We report on Church of Christcongregations that are deeply,
deeply involved in caring forimmigrants and refugee
communities.
We've had several, severalepisodes of this podcast that
just focused on their stories,and they are deeply involved in
(27:46):
trying to bring immigrants andrefugees to the United States,
literally to save their lives.
So when you were talking aboutthe stroke of a pen a moment ago
, I thought about a guest we hadon this show in the last few
months.
He's a brother in Christ fromHaiti and he is here in the
United States as a refugeebecause his life was in danger
(28:06):
back in Haiti, was in dangerback in Haiti.
So we know a lot of people inour Church of Christ community.
They do what they do forimmigrants and for refugees
because they believe in theBible and the example and
teachings of Jesus Christ.
And yet, if other researchholds, the majority of the folks
in those congregations support,at least with their votes,
(28:35):
political actions and rhetoricthat seem to endanger, at least
menace, the you know, the veryimmigrants and refugees these
folks are supporting throughtheir congregations.
I mean, what kind of dissonancehas your research picked up
coming from respondents in thesesituations.
Do you understand what I'masking, dissonance being you
have a strong love and a strongconscience and yet, at the same
time, maybe, what you seehappening around you, you don't
(28:59):
support it, but you feel caughtin the tension or the bind.
Did your research respondentstalk about that any with y'all
as you surveyed them?
Scott McConnell (29:08):
As we did this survey.
Obviously I think the nationwas anticipating some changes
coming very quickly, but it wasbefore many of those changes
took place.
But even the strong sentimentswe've seen over the multiple
surveys we've done on this topic, we see dissonance there and
and really that's why they werecalling for changes in laws,
(29:31):
because we're desiring thingsthat an outsider might think are
in conflict.
You know, we we desire nine outof 10 want the rule of law
respected.
Nine out of 10 want toguarantee secure national
borders.
But we also, nine out of 10,want to respect the God-given
dignity of every person and nineout of 10 want to protect the
(29:54):
unity of the immediate family.
And in my local town I see astory last night on the news
where a married couple of 25years ripped apart and the
gentleman deported because hedid not have documents, and they
have three kids.
The wife and the three kidsdon't speak Spanish.
(30:18):
So so for them to move, to tryto keep to Mexico, to try to
keep unity of the family, isalmost impossible.
You know, financially they'renow in ruin.
And so you know we're tornapart because we do want the
rules to be followed, but at thesame time we just ripped apart
a family and that is not theheart of evangelicals.
(30:42):
And while it's not 90%, three infour evangelicals actually want
to establish a path towardscitizenship for those who are
interested and meetqualifications.
And you know we've got otherquestions where, you know eight
out of 10, you know want to seea citizenship path for dreamers.
(31:04):
You know second generation, youknow the second generation, and
so there is this dissonancewhere you know laws have not
been enforced but at the sametime, and that we know that's
not biblical, but at the sametime, the laws are not what we
want them to be and some of the,you know, some of the red tape
(31:26):
is pretty crazy.
For some of these, and againfor many undocumented immigrants
, there's literally no path,there's no way to apply, there's
no way to request to make itright, and we're a people that
believe in redemption, we're apeople that believe in second
chances and making things right.
Making things right and formany we, as Americans, we have
(31:52):
to take responsibility.
We have not offered that secondchance, we have not offered a
path for somebody to make itright.
BT Irwin (31:56):
On this show.
I say this all the time this isnot a show about politics, it's
about the church, and I try tokeep us in the bounds of the
church.
But politics affects the churchand vice versa.
One of the things I feel like Iremember from the report is
that congregants reported in thesurvey that they do want to
(32:19):
talk about this stuff in church,not the politics of it.
Scott McConnell (32:24):
But it sounds to me like they're saying we
would welcome teaching on this,we would welcome conversation
about this in our churches 80%would value hearing a sermon
that teaches how biblicalprinciples and examples can be
applied to immigration in the US, and only 23% of evangelicals
say the Bible is the number oneinfluence on their thinking on
(32:46):
this topic Interesting, and lessthan four out of 10 say it's
even on their list ofinfluencers.
The Bible, yes.
So you know, as evangelicals,we are to be people of the book,
and so the principles of theBible should be influencing
everything in our lives.
And so, really, that's thebiggest opportunity for the
(33:07):
church is to understand whatScripture does say, to
understand what God's heart is.
And, yes, this is a verycomplicated topic.
You touched on refugees.
Well, that's a whole categoryto understand what is our legal
definition of a refugee and whatdoes that involve.
(33:29):
And so, yes, it's difficult,but at the same time, the
principles are pretty easy toapply.
And, yes, some really smartpeople in Washington need to set
policy in place and proceduresin place that fit that.
But we've really just seenparalysis at that level, and I
(33:51):
think, as believers, we've gotto continue to speak up and ask
for improvement.
BT Irwin (33:57):
So I think I found a way to draw all three topics of
our conversation together today.
So, leaders of churches, morepeople believe the Bible is true
than they did 10 years ago.
More people are coming tochurch and they want to hear
what the Bible has to say abouthow to treat the immigrant and
the refugee who are ourneighbors.
So didn't know if these threetopics related, but it turns out
(34:19):
they do.
I'm going to ask you a question.
I don't know if I'm allowed toask, but I want to know do you
have any really exciting newresearch coming up that you just
can't wait to share with thepublic?
I'm not asking for the research, I'm just asking for a sneak
peek.
Is there a summer blockbustertrailer you can give us right
now for some new researchLifeway is going to be bringing
to us soon.
Scott McConnell (34:40):
We are doing analysis on a couple big
discipleship surveys and sowe're going to be eager to share
that this fall and just unpackthat Because, again, on that
journey of understandingscripture, understanding our
relationship with God kind ofthe fancy church term for that
is discipleship and allowingother people to help us on that
(35:02):
journey and just unpacking a lotof pieces of that.
BT Irwin (35:06):
I'm excited about it.
I've been in a lot of churchesrecently where leaders have
asked me about discipleship andthey're talking about
discipleship, so it sounds likeyou're on the right wavelength
there.
So, scott, you're always one ofthe most fun guests for a nerd
like me, and I know all thenerds in our audience just love
listening to you talk about dataand surveys and things like
that.
Thanks for coming back on sucha busy week.
(35:27):
Thank you, appreciate it, godbless.
We hope that something you heardin this episode encouraged,
enlightened or enriched you insome way.
If it did, thanks be to God andplease pay it forward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Recommend and review itwherever you listen to your
favorite podcasts.
Your subscription,recommendation and review help
(35:49):
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Please send your comments,ideas and suggestions to podcast
at christianchronicleorg anddon't forget our ministry to
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world is a non-profit ministrythat relies on you and your
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And if you do happen to be thatuber-wealthy Church of Christ
(36:10):
member who wants to write thatcheck with all those zeros to
endow a Christian Chronicleresearch arm, we would take that
too.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis a production of the Christian
Chronicle Incorporated,informing and inspiring Church
of Christ congregations, membersand ministries around the world
since 1943.
The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Audrey
(36:32):
Jackson, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and executive director
and CEO Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis written, directed, hosted
and edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan at
Podcast your Voice Studios inthe Motor City, detroit,
michigan, usa.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
We're bringing you the storiesshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
I'm BT Irwin May what you areabout to hear.
Bless you and honor God here.
(00:27):
Bless you and honor God.
So I have this secret dream thatI never shared with anyone
until now.
We here at the ChristianChronicle always want to know
how current events and trends inthe world affect Church of
Christ folks and what Church ofChrist folks think about them.
So here is my dream that somewealthy Church of Christ member
gives us a check with a numberfollowed by a bunch of zeros, so
we could endow something like aBarna Group or Pew Research
(00:50):
Center, but for the purpose ofresearching and surveying the
Church of Christ communityaround the world.
Well, maybe that dream willeventually come true now that I
put it out there, but until then, we have the next best thing,
and that is LifeWay research.
Now, lifeway is an arm of theSouthern Baptist Convention, but
their research covers allChrist believers and Christ
(01:12):
seekers in general, with specialfocus on what the general
public calls evangelicalChristians, since Church of
Christ folks check a lot of theboxes for what the public and
researchers consider evangelical.
We fit in that category for thepurpose of those who survey
religious groups, and thatincludes LifeWay Research, so a
lot of the studies they put outdo a nice job of helping us make
(01:33):
some strong inferences abouthow Church of Christ folks act,
feel and think.
In case you haven't noticed,there is a lot going on in the
world Church of Christ.
Folks are part of it and theyhave feelings and thoughts on it
.
We thought it might be a goodtime to figure out what some of
those feelings and thoughtsmight be, so we brought back our
old friend, scott McConnell,who is executive director at
(01:55):
Lifeway Research.
He's making his record-settingfourth appearance on the show.
Scott, welcome back again.
Well, thank you, it's an honor.
You come out with new stuffevery week, and I would
encourage those in our audiencethat like to keep up with trends
and really good research onwhat churches and Christians are
doing to subscribe to youremail newsletter, because every
(02:18):
day something new drops in theinbox and it's always worthwhile
.
I picked a few things that I'dlike to ask you about today that
I think our audience wouldreally care about, and I want to
start with something that mostpeople.
Actually, I can't think ofanyone who would think it's not
good news.
Bible sales in the UnitedStates were up 22% from October
2023 to October 2024.
(02:41):
And that's from the Wall StreetJournal.
That continues a year-on-yeartrend of Bible sales increases
that goes back to at least 2019.
Y'all recently published areport on whether Americans are
reading all of those new Biblesthey're buying, and what did you
find?
Scott McConnell (02:56):
We approached the question kind of creatively.
We didn't just ask howfrequently do you read the Bible
.
We ask Americans how much ofthe Bible have you read?
And two-thirds of Americanshave read half of the Bible or
less and in fact 9% have readnone of it.
But we do see that about morethan one in five have read all
(03:19):
of it or all of it more thanonce.
And so really, as you think ofAmericans yes, most Americans
own a Bible somewhere in theirhouse, but it's a pretty wide
range of people who've read alot of it or just a little bit
of it, and even their attitudesabout it many kind of read it.
We think of somebody picking upthe Bible and reading and then
(03:41):
the next day they pick up wherethey left off and keep reading.
But that kind of systematicapproach is actually only the
way about a third of Americansthink about reading the Bible.
Quite a few are actuallythinking of it as a reference
book.
So somebody tells them of apassage, they'll pick it up and
look at that, or, if they have aneed, they'll look that up, or
they'll just flip it open andsee where their eyes land and
(04:04):
start reading there.
BT Irwin (04:05):
I was surprised by the number of Americans who
reported that they feel like I'mgoing to say they feel like
they think they've read morethan half the Bible.
Were you surprised by that?
Scott McConnell (04:18):
I mean because there's still a lot of Americans
that call themselves aChristian.
You would expect that a lot ofthem will have read a good chunk
of the Bible, but the extremesare kind of where your eyes go
first, and so those aren't thatsurprising.
Part of it, too, is kind oftheir attitude of is this a book
(04:42):
that you read once, or is this?
You know, that's typically theway I think of books is.
You know, I'm going to read itonce, and if it's good, I'll
keep it on my shelf, but I'mprobably not going to read it
again.
14% of Americans think of theBible that way it's a book worth
reading once.
44%, though, believe it's abook to read over and over again
.
As believers, we really do seeit as something that can be life
(05:06):
transformational.
Really any day we pick it up,and 26% see it as a book to be
referenced as needed, and 6% sayit's not worth reading at all.
So that's a pretty low number.
BT Irwin (05:19):
And 9% are not sure.
One thing I noticed from yourresearch is that.
One thing I noticed from yourresearch is that, let's see, you
did a similar study.
Was it in 2019 or 2016?
2016, right, you did a similarstudy.
And back in 2016, the agecohort that and I forget how you
put it, I'll just say heremaybe engaged with the Bible the
(05:42):
least or knew the least amountof the Bible or read the least
of the Bible, was the youngestage cohort.
In your study, which wouldn'tsurprise many people.
It's the youngest age cohort,but in the findings that you
just released, that changed.
The age cohort that replacedthat youngest age cohort was the
(06:06):
65 and older age cohort.
Was that surprising and whatmight be the reason for that?
That really caught my attention.
Scott McConnell (06:17):
I mean, oftentimes what we see when we
look at an age breakout ondifferent beliefs is that young
people tend to be more curiousand yet they may not have really
thought through all the piecesyet of whatever belief we're
asking about or practice, andthe oldest adults tend to have
made up their mind and arepretty firm in it, whatever that
is.
And so you know we do see a lotof older adults kind of pretty
(06:38):
firm that I, you know, I reallydon't need the Bible on a
regular basis, even though theymay still hold on to some of the
beliefs.
BT Irwin (06:50):
I don't think you asked this question in your
study, but does it seem likeyounger cohorts may be
demonstrating more curiosityabout the Bible than they did,
say, 10 years ago?
Scott McConnell (06:57):
I'd probably use the word openness.
There's definitely an opennessthere.
There is a curiosity of justinterested in knowing more.
You know, that doesn'tnecessarily mean they've bought
into hey, I'm going to startreading because I'm so curious.
But there's an openness and soyou know, if somebody draws them
in, somebody recommendssomething, somebody has a
(07:20):
podcast on you know something inscripture, you know they're not
going to tune that out, they'regoing to be, they're going to
be curious, they're going to beinterested in, in what it has to
say.
Uh, because they're stillexploring.
BT Irwin (07:33):
Yeah, so, uh, here's one of the big findings from
your study of Americans Biblereading habits.
In 2016, just 36% of Americanssaid that the Bible is quote
true in quote and end quote, andthat's from Lifeway Research.
In the study you just released,that number is up to 48%, so
that's a big jump.
Also noteworthy is that 45% ofAmericans in your recent study
(07:58):
said the Bible is quotelife-changing end quote, and
that is up from 35% in 2016.
What were you all able tosurmise about the reasons for
this?
Scott McConnell (08:09):
Really, we believe that increasingly
there's less middle ground whenit comes to the Bible, and so we
see good news like this thosethat are open to the Bible,
those that are fascinated by itor are devout believers in what
the Bible has to say and what itis, are more positive.
(08:33):
But those who believe it's abook of myths, those that don't
believe it's authoritative intheir life, you know, they're
also more convinced of that, andso even in other surveys we've
done, we kind of see a 50-50split, and here we see some of
these positive adjectives aboutthe Bible really jumping up
(08:55):
toward that 50% mark.
So all those that are kind ofon the positive side, they may
have been leaning that waybefore, so they picked one or
two adjectives.
Now, you know most of thepositive adjectives, they're
willing to check and just goyeah, you know I'm in on this,
and so that's definitelyencouraging that culturally,
(09:17):
while we're in a secular age,it's not a secular age that has
no room for faith.
And so people who kind of sayno, I think there's something
more and I think that that moreis found in the Bible, you know
they're they're much morewilling to say it, they're much
more willing to, to identifywith that and and so that is
(09:39):
encouraging.
BT Irwin (09:40):
Can we find any causation or correlation there
that that explains why this hashappened over the last 10 years?
Scott McConnell (09:47):
We don't have anything direct in the data
itself.
You know our culture tends tobe a swinging pendulum on a lot
of different issues, so I thinkyou know just some of the
cultural conversations where youknow where morality and where
religious freedom is is kind ofhaving a day right now.
(10:13):
It creates a little more spaceto express, hey, yeah, that's
what I think too, whereas whensome of the social conversation
is pushing against Christianity,some of these same people may
be less willing to say out loudthat they lean that direction.
BT Irwin (10:31):
I had to check myself a little bit because I've had
conversations with people inrecent years.
I grew up in a small town inOhio and I say to people back
then in the 1980s in small townOhio, you assumed that everybody
believed the Bible, whetherthey went to church or not.
And I've said recently topeople that that isn't the case
(10:53):
anymore.
But these numbers you know, 48percent, 48 percent of Americans
you didn't say churchgoers, yousaid Americans in general say
the Bible is true.
It might indicate that there'smore openness now from our
neighbors who may not be membersof churches or may not be
practicing Christianity of anykind, more openness now to
(11:17):
engage on the Bible, because itseems like more of them now
would say yeah, I believe it'strue, teach me about it?
Scott McConnell (11:26):
Yes, absolutely , and that ties to our
conversation about youngeradults, younger Americans
conversation about youngeradults, younger Americans that,
while some of the generationthat is currently aging out and
passing away were fully boughtin, the younger generation is
still open, many of thempositive about the Bible, but
(11:47):
may not have the knowledge thatthe older generation had, and so
we've got to be inviting themin to study scripture.
Let's read some of it together,book club style, or, you know,
let's get them in the front doorof really exploring what the
Word of God says.
BT Irwin (12:03):
Well, speaking of invitations, you released a
report in March of this yearthat half of all Protestant
congregations in the UnitedStates are reporting attendance
growth since the end of thepandemic.
What can you tell us about thepeople who are coming back to
church, or coming to church forthe first time, you know?
Scott McConnell (12:22):
this snapshot of 2025 compared to the
beginning of 2023, you know,many of those numbers are people
returning from the pandemic,you know to see a majority of
churches indicating actualgrowth in worship attendance.
It's a rare thing We've notbeen in that space for a long,
long time, and so that's veryencouraging.
(12:45):
This means that a lot ofchurches have had good news
recently the vibe's gonna bebetter because, hey, we're a
little more full than we werelast year and the year before,
and so that definitely is apositive thing.
But, honestly, this is in themidst, though, of a long-term
(13:07):
trend that's heading the otherdirection, and so we don't want
to not celebrate, though, in theshort term, this has been good
and, as what are the financialadvisors say, you know, past
performance does not predict theoutcome of your future
investments, so we're not goingto say we're definitely going
back to that long-term trend,but you know we do want to
celebrate what's happened theselast couple of years of seeing
(13:29):
growth in so many churches, andbe praying that that continues.
BT Irwin (13:34):
But you do report that not all congregations are
growing equally.
Scott McConnell (13:39):
That is true, and some of that is just the
timing of the COVID rebound.
Most of the smallest churchesrebounded immediately, literally
as soon as their local areathey could meet again.
They did.
Some of them never had to stopbecause they were small enough
that there were no regulationsand so they bounced back
(14:01):
immediately.
The midsize, the large churchessome of them had to be closed
even for a year in some parts ofthe country, and so a lot of
people got out of the habit ofattending.
A lot of people got out of thehabit of attending and I think a
lot of church leaders werereally surprised by that just
how disconnected so many peoplegot so quickly and it was really
(14:25):
hard to get them back engaged.
It was almost like reaching anew person to get somebody to
come back.
And literally, when we set upthis question, we thought we
were post-pandemic.
And literally, when we set upthis question, we thought we
were post-pandemic.
You know, we thought, bycomparing to the beginning of 23
, that we wouldn't have much ofthe rebound from the pandemic.
And yet we see with thesenumbers that you know, the mid
and large sized churches, really, you know, we're still seeing
(14:47):
COVID rebound in 2023 and 24.
24.
And so you know, I do thinkwe're reaching the point now and
a number of denominations haveput out really positive numbers
this last year of conversions,of baptisms, and I think we're
to the point now where the newpeople who are coming to
churches are literally newpeople coming to Christ rather
(15:11):
than rebound folks who hadattended years ago, and so
that's also super encouragingnationally, but also super
encouraging for a localcongregation.
BT Irwin (15:21):
I want to ask you about that in a second.
Just a quick detour here.
I don't remember seeinganything in the research beyond
just the larger churches seem tobe seeing attendance growth
faster than smaller churches.
Did you learn anything aboutkind of a resorting of where
people are members post-pandemic?
(15:42):
For example?
I know our congregation, largercongregation.
There were several months thatwe were online but when we came
back the growth, the return tothe pews was slow.
A lot of people did not comeback to our congregation, they
went to other congregations andwe picked up some new people.
(16:02):
So does Lifeway Research haveany information about maybe how
members of churches resortedthemselves post pandemic?
We have not dug into that.
Scott McConnell (16:12):
There are a couple of good surveys by Pew
and Hartford that have beentracking some of that.
In general, the churches thatwere closed the shortest amount
of time tended to benefit themost, because devout believers
(16:33):
wanted to be attending churchand if their church was going to
be closed for months they'dfind somewhere else, and so
there were some folks moving.
Obviously some people just usedit as an excuse.
You know they were kind ofthinking of it.
Anyway, let's go ahead and shoparound or let's watch some
churches online if we're goingto be home, and let's try some
others that way.
And so you know it probablyaccelerated that more than
(16:57):
normal, for sure.
But yeah, a lot of the reboundagain was initially just people
coming back.
But you know, a lot of churchesreprioritized and they got back
to the basics when theyreopened and, I think, put a
little more emphasis onevangelism.
That often gets put on the backburner too often and just by
(17:21):
encouraging their congregationto have those conversations, to
be inviting people, I think it'sbearing fruit.
BT Irwin (17:28):
So it is bearing fruit .
You had a statistic and youyou're going to have to help me
through it again, but you hadthe statistic in your report
about the number of conversionsamong people who come to
congregations and it wasinteresting because you compared
it to a study you did in thepast, a few years ago, and it
(17:51):
broke down to something like howmany conversions per 100 people
years ago and it broke down tosomething like how many
conversions per 100 people, youknow, or something along those
lines.
You can explain that in asecond, but you already
mentioned that conversionspeople being baptized, people
committing their lives to Christhas been increasing in the
congregations that you'recovering in your research.
Scott McConnell (18:13):
We're seeing that in some of the
denominational statistics thathave come out from several
denominations this year.
Just some nice rebounds notonly in worship attendance but
also again in conversions.
However, they're tracking that,whether that's a profession of
faith or a baptism, and some ofthe ratios of attendees per new
(18:36):
commitment to Christ didn'tchange dramatically.
But at the same time you knowthe totals are looking like
they're heading in a really gooddirection.
BT Irwin (18:48):
OK, so that's all good stuff, let's let's turn to a
harder subject immigration or,to be more specific, immigrants
living in the United States.
It looks like it could be acase of heartburn for all of us
this summer, and I'm putting itthat way for reasons that will
become apparent in my questions.
Lifeway Research has beentracking evangelical attitudes
(19:09):
about immigrants and immigrationfor several years now, and you
updated that research back inFebruary of this year.
What did you want to find outby circling back to your body of
research on immigration?
Scott McConnell (19:21):
Normally we go several years in between.
You know a survey on the exactsame topic, but elections and
political campaigns tend tooversimplify issues you know
kind of get it down to are youleft or you're right?
You know kind of a kind of adichotomy and you know most of
the political polls showed thatimmigration was one of the top
issues.
Even even among pastors it wasone of the top issues for for
(19:45):
how they were going to vote andand so with with a lot of the
sentiment of of the politicalconversation being negative.
We just wanted to circle backto see if evangelical sentiments
on immigration had changed verymuch, because again it felt
like it was really a drivingissue in the political cycle and
in the past we've seen thatevangelicals have strong views
(20:09):
on immigration and wanted to seeif those had moved.
BT Irwin (20:13):
There may be this idea out there in mainstream news or
in the online world thatconservative Christians,
evangelical Christians, likefolks in the Church of Christ,
would you know, build a moat anda wall on every foot of the US
border and round up and deport40 million immigrants today if
they could.
But based on your research,that picture of Christians in
(20:34):
the United States really couldnot be further from the truth.
That's true, I mean even whenwe put.
Scott McConnell (20:39):
We try to be very objective in our survey,
and so we put positives, we putnegatives.
You know, some of the negativethings that we listed for
respondents, you know, is thenumber of recent immigrants to
the United States.
Is it a drain on economicresources?
Less than half of evangelicalsbelieve that's the case.
(21:01):
Is it a threat to the safety ofcitizens?
Just 43% say that's the case.
Is it a threat to law and order?
Just 37% say that's the case.
And then, mixed in there,almost the same percentages say
you know, the number of recentimmigrants is an opportunity to
introduce them to Jesus Christand it's an opportunity to show
(21:22):
them love.
And so you know, yes, there aresome negatives.
There is hey, this could impactmy security, this could impact
my wallet, and you know, for allAmericans, their wallet is
super important.
We know that from our elections.
We know that, you know in thecase, in any case.
But there's also this you knowthis desire to love immigrants.
(21:46):
And you know legal immigration86% of evangelicals say that
legal immigration is helpful.
And so a lot of the questionsreally come down to you know our
laws about what makes animmigrant legal, and oftentimes
those who come here come withlegally, but that status expires
or that status changes.
(22:06):
If it's a temporary status,that's for hundreds of thousands
.
That's changed recently.
Just with the stroke of a pen,they move from legal to illegal,
and and so you know what we'veseen over time is more and more
evangelicals saying Congressneeds to pass significant new
immigration legislation thisyear and so so in 2025, it's 80
(22:30):
percent of evangelicals say weneed to change the laws we have
on the books.
BT Irwin (22:36):
A number of the questions we ask show that
evangelicals want laws to beenforced, but there's also this
really strong sentiment that ourcurrent laws are not just so
the thing that strikes me and itmay be the spark for your
research is what a gulf existsbetween what evangelical
(22:58):
Christians say they believe andwant like a couple of the things
you just mentioned there inregard to immigrants and
immigration and, at the veryleast, what I'll call the
rhetoric and spectacle comingfrom the politicians to whom
evangelical Christians givetheir often unquestioning and
unwavering support.
(23:18):
And because of that I can seewhy Americans who are not
evangelical Christians form suchstrong opinions about what
evangelical Christians believeand what they want to do.
So I try really hard to be MrVanilla on the show, but
sometimes I have to ask aquestion because I can't come up
with a better way to ask it.
If there is such a big gapbetween what evangelical
(23:39):
Christians say they want and therhetoric and spectacle of the
politicians they support, isthat support simply a matter of
evangelical Christians feelinglike they have no other
political options, feeling likethey have no other political
options?
What I've heard from my ownfamily and friends is that they
don't like the politicians theychoose, but they like them a lot
better than the otherpoliticians.
(24:00):
So your research showed thatthe vast majority of evangelical
Christians actually wantcooperation among politicians to
bring about what we might callcommon sense policy.
That would actually keep mostimmigrants here and let more in
in a orderly fashion, right.
Yet for all we hear about thepower of the evangelical
(24:21):
Christian voting bloc, we'regetting no closer to that kind
of cooperation or policy.
So I guess I'm asking what hasyour research shown you about
why evangelical Christians keepsettling for policies and
politicians that seem so out ofstep with what evangelical
Christians keep saying theyactually want?
Scott McConnell (24:41):
As we have done surveys related to elections,
both this last one and previousones Americans and Christians
both tell us that they're notsingle issue voters.
Both tell us that they're notsingle issue voters.
And so, even when we havesomething that's cut and dry,
where there's large numbers ofevangelicals believing the same
(25:02):
thing, um, we sometimes see themvoting in a different direction
, or you know, because at thesame time, they're you know,
they're caring about theirwallet, they're caring about
immigration, they're caringabout abortion, they're caring
about healthcare, they're caringabout, you know, defense, and
(25:22):
so, in their mind, they'rehaving to sort through all of
that and pick a candidate, andand you know, every candidate is
a human being.
So they're they're having tosort through all of that and
pick a candidate, and you know,every candidate is a human being
, so they're all flawed.
The United States system isbuilt on compromise and we
normally think of that ascompromise happening in
Washington, but the compromisealso has to happen for a voter.
(25:43):
I'm going to have to vote forsomebody.
That's less than what I want.
I'm going to have to vote forsomebody.
That's less than what I want,and so, while in the voting
booth you can only make onedecision, the rest of the time
we can speak up and say, hey, Ivoted for this person, but I'm
not agreeing with them on thisissue.
(26:11):
I voted against this person andI still disagree with with them,
or I do agree with them on thisissue, and I think, as
Christians, we have to be lesswedded to our political party
and our political process andmore wedded to the principles of
the king of kings and reallyspeaking up for God's heart, and
really, all through scripture,we see that he has a heart for
(26:36):
what many translations refer toas a resident alien, somebody
born in another country wholives among you and you know,
just a direct command to thepeople of Israel to treat them
like they're one of you.
And unfortunately, in ourcountry we've probably for
(26:56):
political reasons, we've madethis a lot more complicated, and
every piece of the process ismore complicated.
Applying for permanent statusor applying for citizenship is
incredibly onerous andincredibly expensive, and so we
tend to end up treating peopleas less than us as citizens of
(27:20):
this country who live among us.
BT Irwin (27:23):
Your research touches on something I observe from my
time working with the ChristianChronicle.
We report on Church of Christcongregations that are deeply,
deeply involved in caring forimmigrants and refugee
communities.
We've had several, severalepisodes of this podcast that
just focused on their stories,and they are deeply involved in
(27:46):
trying to bring immigrants andrefugees to the United States,
literally to save their lives.
So when you were talking aboutthe stroke of a pen a moment ago
, I thought about a guest we hadon this show in the last few
months.
He's a brother in Christ fromHaiti and he is here in the
United States as a refugeebecause his life was in danger
(28:06):
back in Haiti, was in dangerback in Haiti.
So we know a lot of people inour Church of Christ community.
They do what they do forimmigrants and for refugees
because they believe in theBible and the example and
teachings of Jesus Christ.
And yet, if other researchholds, the majority of the folks
in those congregations support,at least with their votes,
(28:35):
political actions and rhetoricthat seem to endanger, at least
menace, the you know, the veryimmigrants and refugees these
folks are supporting throughtheir congregations.
I mean, what kind of dissonancehas your research picked up
coming from respondents in thesesituations.
Do you understand what I'masking, dissonance being you
have a strong love and a strongconscience and yet, at the same
time, maybe, what you seehappening around you, you don't
(28:59):
support it, but you feel caughtin the tension or the bind.
Did your research respondentstalk about that any with y'all
as you surveyed them?
Scott McConnell (29:08):
As we did this survey.
Obviously I think the nationwas anticipating some changes
coming very quickly, but it wasbefore many of those changes
took place.
But even the strong sentimentswe've seen over the multiple
surveys we've done on this topic, we see dissonance there and
and really that's why they werecalling for changes in laws,
(29:31):
because we're desiring thingsthat an outsider might think are
in conflict.
You know, we we desire nine outof 10 want the rule of law
respected.
Nine out of 10 want toguarantee secure national
borders.
But we also, nine out of 10,want to respect the God-given
dignity of every person and nineout of 10 want to protect the
(29:54):
unity of the immediate family.
And in my local town I see astory last night on the news
where a married couple of 25years ripped apart and the
gentleman deported because hedid not have documents, and they
have three kids.
The wife and the three kidsdon't speak Spanish.
(30:18):
So so for them to move, to tryto keep to Mexico, to try to
keep unity of the family, isalmost impossible.
You know, financially they'renow in ruin.
And so you know we're tornapart because we do want the
rules to be followed, but at thesame time we just ripped apart
a family and that is not theheart of evangelicals.
(30:42):
And while it's not 90%, three infour evangelicals actually want
to establish a path towardscitizenship for those who are
interested and meetqualifications.
And you know we've got otherquestions where, you know eight
out of 10, you know want to seea citizenship path for dreamers.
(31:04):
You know second generation, youknow the second generation, and
so there is this dissonancewhere you know laws have not
been enforced but at the sametime, and that we know that's
not biblical, but at the sametime, the laws are not what we
want them to be and some of the,you know, some of the red tape
(31:26):
is pretty crazy.
For some of these, and againfor many undocumented immigrants
, there's literally no path,there's no way to apply, there's
no way to request to make itright, and we're a people that
believe in redemption, we're apeople that believe in second
chances and making things right.
Making things right and formany we, as Americans, we have
(31:52):
to take responsibility.
We have not offered that secondchance, we have not offered a
path for somebody to make itright.
BT Irwin (31:56):
On this show.
I say this all the time this isnot a show about politics, it's
about the church, and I try tokeep us in the bounds of the
church.
But politics affects the churchand vice versa.
One of the things I feel like Iremember from the report is
that congregants reported in thesurvey that they do want to
(32:19):
talk about this stuff in church,not the politics of it.
Scott McConnell (32:24):
But it sounds to me like they're saying we
would welcome teaching on this,we would welcome conversation
about this in our churches 80%would value hearing a sermon
that teaches how biblicalprinciples and examples can be
applied to immigration in the US, and only 23% of evangelicals
say the Bible is the number oneinfluence on their thinking on
(32:46):
this topic Interesting, and lessthan four out of 10 say it's
even on their list ofinfluencers.
The Bible, yes.
So you know, as evangelicals,we are to be people of the book,
and so the principles of theBible should be influencing
everything in our lives.
And so, really, that's thebiggest opportunity for the
(33:07):
church is to understand whatScripture does say, to
understand what God's heart is.
And, yes, this is a verycomplicated topic.
You touched on refugees.
Well, that's a whole categoryto understand what is our legal
definition of a refugee and whatdoes that involve.
(33:29):
And so, yes, it's difficult,but at the same time, the
principles are pretty easy toapply.
And, yes, some really smartpeople in Washington need to set
policy in place and proceduresin place that fit that.
But we've really just seenparalysis at that level, and I
(33:51):
think, as believers, we've gotto continue to speak up and ask
for improvement.
BT Irwin (33:57):
So I think I found a way to draw all three topics of
our conversation together today.
So, leaders of churches, morepeople believe the Bible is true
than they did 10 years ago.
More people are coming tochurch and they want to hear
what the Bible has to say abouthow to treat the immigrant and
the refugee who are ourneighbors.
So didn't know if these threetopics related, but it turns out
(34:19):
they do.
I'm going to ask you a question.
I don't know if I'm allowed toask, but I want to know do you
have any really exciting newresearch coming up that you just
can't wait to share with thepublic?
I'm not asking for the research, I'm just asking for a sneak
peek.
Is there a summer blockbustertrailer you can give us right
now for some new researchLifeway is going to be bringing
to us soon.
Scott McConnell (34:40):
We are doing analysis on a couple big
discipleship surveys and sowe're going to be eager to share
that this fall and just unpackthat Because, again, on that
journey of understandingscripture, understanding our
relationship with God kind ofthe fancy church term for that
is discipleship and allowingother people to help us on that
(35:02):
journey and just unpacking a lotof pieces of that.
BT Irwin (35:06):
I'm excited about it.
I've been in a lot of churchesrecently where leaders have
asked me about discipleship andthey're talking about
discipleship, so it sounds likeyou're on the right wavelength
there.
So, scott, you're always one ofthe most fun guests for a nerd
like me, and I know all thenerds in our audience just love
listening to you talk about dataand surveys and things like
that.
Thanks for coming back on sucha busy week.
(35:27):
Thank you, appreciate it, godbless.
We hope that something you heardin this episode encouraged,
enlightened or enriched you insome way.
If it did, thanks be to God andplease pay it forward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Recommend and review itwherever you listen to your
favorite podcasts.
Your subscription,recommendation and review help
(35:49):
us reach more people.
Please send your comments,ideas and suggestions to podcast
at christianchronicleorg anddon't forget our ministry to
inform and inspire Christiansand congregations around the
world is a non-profit ministrythat relies on you and your
generosity.
And if you do happen to be thatuber-wealthy Church of Christ
(36:10):
member who wants to write thatcheck with all those zeros to
endow a Christian Chronicleresearch arm, we would take that
too.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis a production of the Christian
Chronicle Incorporated,informing and inspiring Church
of Christ congregations, membersand ministries around the world
since 1943.
The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Audrey
(36:32):
Jackson, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and executive director
and CEO Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis written, directed, hosted
and edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan at
Podcast your Voice Studios inthe Motor City, detroit,
michigan, usa.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
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