July 17, 2025 • 42 mins
In early July 2025, the U.S. Internal Revenue Service changed its interpretation of the tax code to give houses of worship more leeway to engage in political speech, which may include endorsing candidates...even from the pulpit.
Is this a good thing for the church and its Great Commission?
Chris McCurley, preaching minister with the Walnut Street Church of Christ in Dickson, Tennessee, and host of the popular Dear Church Podcast, joins us to talk about politics in church. How much energy and time should preachers give to preaching and teaching on the politics of the day? When they do preach and teach on politics, what is the biblical way to do it? And should congregations and their preachers get into the political campaigning and endorsing business?
Link to the Dear Church Podcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
BT Irwin (00:03):
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
We're bringing you the storiesshaping Church of Christ,
congregations and members aroundthe world.
I'm BT Irwin.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
If you are a member of acongregation in the United
(00:25):
States, your congregation isexempt from paying taxes to the
federal government because it isclassified as a not-for-profit
organization.
Now, in order to maintain thattax-exempt status with the
Internal Revenue Service, yourcongregation must not do certain
things.
For example, your congregationmust not start making a profit
(00:50):
off of business activities thatare not related to its purpose
as a church.
So if your elders decide toopen a factory making and
selling communion trays at a bigmarkup, your congregation may
have a lot of explaining to doto the IRS.
Your tax-exempt status would bein trouble because now your
congregation is making a profitfrom a business unrelated to its
(01:14):
primary purpose as a house ofworship.
Another big no-no for churchesis endorsing or opposing
political candidates.
Since 1954, the US tax code hasbeen explicit that a house of
worship that uses its influenceto campaign for certain
candidates is no longeroperating under its primary
purpose and should not betax-exempt, but less than two
(01:37):
weeks before we recorded thisepisode, in mid-July 2025, the
Internal Revenue Service changedits interpretation of the tax
code.
So it now seems that churchesmay engage in political
endorsements in speech,including endorsing certain
candidates for office, withoutendangering their tax-exempt
status.
So are we entering a new era inwhich your congregation may
(02:02):
choose to endorse or oppose aparticular politician?
Imagine hearing your preacherendorse a candidate from the
pulpit or reading your elder'sendorsement of a candidate in
the church bulletin.
It seems that the IRS is nowallowing for that to happen, but
is that a good thing?
Today, we'll explore thatquestion with Chris McCurley,
(02:23):
the preaching minister with theWalnut Street Church of Christ
in Dixon, tennessee, and host ofthe popular Dear Church podcast
, where Chris and his guestsexplore questions like this one.
Chris, thanks for coming back onour show.
Sure, thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure.
So a lot of research over thelast few years reveals that
people in the pew seem to havean appetite to hear more
(02:44):
biblical guidance and teachingon what we might call the social
issues of the day.
For example, a couple ofepisodes back, we had Scott
McConnell from LifeWay Research.
They released a study thatrevealed a big majority of
Americans who identify asChristian want their pastors and
preachers to teach a lot moreabout what the Bible has to say
about treatment of immigrants,for example.
(03:04):
A lot more about what the Biblehas to say about treatment of
immigrants, for example.
So at the same time, there'sbeen this similar research that
shows how congregationalministers hesitate or shrink
back from doing that to thedegree or detail that the people
in the pews might want.
So let's start here.
How much better do you thinkelders, preachers and teachers
could do to guide theircongregations into deeper and
more biblical explorations ofthe social issues of the day?
Chris McCurley (03:26):
Yeah well, I think we can always do better.
I would back up and say youcan't always let the people in
the pew dictate what you preach.
That's a dangerous premise.
However, it is true thatwhatever you see going on in
society, whatever thequote-unquote issue is, it's
going to seep into the churchand so it's going to force you
to deal with it.
And right now, politics and allthat goes along with that, that
(03:51):
big ball of wax is like theIndiana Jones movie.
He's running from that bigboulder that's chasing him.
That's kind of where we're at.
I mean, it's coming after usand it's bearing down on us, and
so it would behoove us to talkabout some of these things.
Can we always do better?
Absolutely.
But at the same time, I thinkthat you know our churches that
(04:12):
I know of anyway, and I don'tknow all of them are doing a
pretty good job of being able tosay you know what?
Here's what's going on insociety.
Here's how we, as Christians,should respond, and I think
that's the angle.
I think we should look at itfrom a standpoint of you know,
as image bearers in the world,which is what we were created to
(04:33):
be.
How can we respond to, you know, the immigration issue or
whatever the issue is out there.
I think that the reason why somany in the pew are wanting to
hear about those things isbecause they're getting
confusing messages from theworld around them.
And what do you believe anymore, right?
(04:55):
I mean, if you get your newsfrom social media, which a lot
of young people do, well, whatdo you believe?
Because you know, if you lookat this recently, this big, well
, what do you believe Becauseyou know, if you look at this
recently, this big, beautifulbill that you know was put forth
?
And I mean, depending on whatside of the aisle you're
listening to, it's either thebest thing in the world or the
worst thing in the world, andeverybody's going to die.
(05:15):
And it's horrible, right?
And so what do you believeanymore?
And I think that that's part ofthe reason why this research
indicates people want to hear isbecause we don't know.
Trying to choose, okay, are we?
BT Irwin (05:45):
going to teach on immigration, for example, since
that's the one that just came upa couple of weeks ago, or are
we going to do something else?
How do you make those decisions?
Yeah?
Chris McCurley (05:55):
so I think it's important to have a pulse on the
congregation and a pulse onwhat's going on in the world
around you, especially in yourcommunity, right, because I'm in
a small community of about16,000.
Our county is about 55,000.
So what is affecting our peopleis going to be different than
somebody who's preaching inurban Chicago.
(06:17):
Right Now we are just on theoutskirts of Nashville, and so
that does seep in somewhat.
But I'm also in the South where, you know, it's not just the
Bible Belt, but where I'm at isprobably the buckle of the Bible
Belt, and so you know there'smostly conservative values and
so I'm preaching to the choir.
You know, a lot of times whenyou're talking about certain
(06:39):
conservative issues.
But I just try to always takethe approach of you know what is
God speaking to this?
Does he have anything to sayabout this?
Because sometimes he doesn't,right?
I think that's where we get offtrack, sometimes as well, is we
want the Bible to answer aquestion that it's.
You know it's not asking, andso we've got to be careful there
(07:02):
.
But instead of just picking theissue of, say, immigration we
brought that one up Instead ofpicking that issue necessarily
and saying here's where theDemocrats have it wrong where
the Republicans have it right,and vice versa.
Let's talk about the twogreatest commands, the Shema in
Hebrew Love the Lord, your God,with all of your heart, soul,
mind and strength.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
How does that set the tone forhow we treat all people?
(07:24):
You know that's love your heart, soul, mind and strength.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
How does that set the tone forhow we treat all people?
That's just an example, and sotrying to take it from the
standpoint of the world's goingto tell you these are political
issues, but when you boil itdown, whether it's abortion or
whatever, those are biblicaltopics, right, and so how do we
approach them from a biblicalstandpoint?
BT Irwin (07:41):
I think one of the hard things for preachers or
teachers or anyone who stands upand speaks in public in front
of the church is that you'veheard it said pastors say that
they have their congregation foran hour on Sunday morning and
then cable news has them andsocial media has them.
The rest of the time is thatthe things that it almost feels
(08:05):
like politics is setting theagenda and creating the field of
play.
And so, as a preacher, when youstand up to preach the message
on Sunday morning, it's almostlike you don't have home field
advantage and people are goingto interpret things.
You say the things that youshare from the Bible, but
(08:25):
they're going to filter thosethrough all the filters that
they've picked up during theweek.
And how do you overcome that asa preacher?
Chris McCurley (08:34):
That's a really good point, because I do feel
like that politics is settingthe agenda, that it's the home
team and we're just visitors.
But I mean, that's really trueof Christianity in general and
as disciples, this is not ourhome turf.
You know this is the devil'splayground and you know we are
exiles in this world and we'rewaiting for something better.
And so you know, peter calls usaliens and strangers and
sojourners, and so that I meanthat's always been true, right.
(08:57):
But you know, for me, what I'malways trying to do from the
pulpit is to bring our peopleback around to Jesus and the
gospel, because you know, thechurch is to be the agency about
which the story of salvation isto be told.
That is our number oneresponsibility.
We are to love God, love ourneighbors.
You know that is the twogreatest commandments.
(09:19):
So I'm always trying to bringour people back around to that.
And maybe I'm guilty sometimesof just pushing politics
completely aside, but it hasbecome an idol in our culture
and it's become an idol in thechurch.
There are Christians whoidolize politics, and so I'm
constantly, especially inelection year, trying to bring
(09:39):
people around about.
Hey, remember, what's mostimportant here is not a man-made
kingdom that's destined to fall, but rather Jesus's kingdom,
and he has an agenda to changethe world.
And that's how you change theworld not through politics, but
one soul at a time, becauseyou're not here very long, right
, and so it's important toremember the mission and
(10:01):
remember what we are to be about.
BT Irwin (10:03):
Personal question you just brought up an election year
in politics On a scale of oneto 10, 10 being the most and one
being the least.
How exhausted have you felt atany point in our political
climate trying to preach thekingdom against all the inertia
and the headwinds of politics?
(10:23):
Yeah, I'd say a 12 for sure.
Chris McCurley (10:26):
You know I mean it is absolutely exhausting.
Now I will say that I am at acongregation in Dixon, tennessee
, where our folks are reasonableand logical.
When it comes to that.
I don't fight a lot of theChristian nationalism and the
idolatry that you see.
It doesn't permeate us as much.
I think there are plenty ofpeople here that are politically
(10:49):
minded, but they don't bring itto the altar, so to speak, and
worship it.
They keep it in a good placefor the most part.
I think there's alwaysexceptions, but I think we've
got a great group here, so Idon't deal with it as much on a
church level, but just theminutiae that you see on social
(11:11):
media and just the constantbickering back and forth on
social media.
As a minister, I feel a need tobe on social media and I use it
to promote the message andpromote Jesus.
And I mean, it's a bathroomwall, isn't it?
It's just, it's terrible.
And so, yeah, it actuallycauses you to be very jaded.
(11:34):
And you know, when I was inAbilene, texas, I was on the
school board for many years andso I was involved in local
politics and I got to be honestwith you the older I get, the
more I seem like.
You know I just I don't wantanything to do with it and I
know that's not necessarily thebest option, but I get to where
I'm like.
(11:54):
Just please turn off the TV,turn off anything that could you
know.
Get into my ears about politicsbecause I'm so tired of it.
BT Irwin (12:02):
So 12,.
I'm sorry, man, I'm reallysorry.
That was a whole lot worse thanI expected, yeah yeah.
So just an aside, here at ourcongregation we have about 250
people and I remember a fewyears ago not too long ago now a
lot of people confided to methat they really wanted to talk
(12:23):
about politics in church andthey weren't coming to me
because they, because they weretrying to figure out who would
get their vote or what partythey said should support or who
was wrong or whatever.
But almost all of them came andconfided to me because they
were hurting really, really badand they felt like there was
(12:46):
division and they felt likerelationships were falling apart
in the church and so theyreally wanted to talk about
politics, they wanted to sortthrough all that and you
understand, you understandthat's a minefield, right?
For a church to decide to gothere.
So I want to get down to thenew guidelines that the Internal
(13:07):
Revenue Service recentlyannounced.
In simple language, the IRS nowseems to be giving houses of
worship a lot more leeway toparticipate in politics without
losing their tax-exempt status,and the reason that the IRS gave
for the change is thatcongregations ought to be free,
under the First Amendment of theUS Constitution, to discuss and
(13:27):
talk about the issues of theday, including what most folks
call politics.
So you can't speak for allministers everywhere, but in
your own experience, have youever felt that you could not
talk about certain things incertain ways because it could
jeopardize your congregation'stax-exempt status?
Chris McCurley (13:52):
I've never felt that.
Of course, I have been inchurches that were in
conservative settings and inconservative states.
So I was in Texas beforeTennessee and both are
conservative states.
That you know.
I mean it's going to be hard toput your tax exempt status in
jeopardy in these states Nowwhen the federal government gets
involved and depending on who'sin the White House.
(14:14):
We've had some times recentlywhere that's been brought up and
there was a bit of someparanoia that that might happen.
I don't know that we've everbeen close to that as much as
many have tried to scare us intothinking that we were.
But I mean there was apossibility, right, that many of
us were, you know, kind ofpondering could this happen and
(14:35):
if it does, what would happen.
But I think you know, for meI've never been in a situation
where I've had to worry aboutthat and if I was, I would just
do what I feel like I'm calledto do, which is preach the word
and try to do it to the best ofmy ability and whatever happens,
you kind of let the chips fallwhere they may, right?
(14:56):
But yeah, to answer thatquestion, no, I've never felt
that, but I've also been in abubble, if you will.
BT Irwin (15:03):
Never felt that, but I've also been in a bubble, if
you will.
The new guidelines from the IRSseem to give congregations
leeway to even endorsecandidates for political office,
including from the pulpit.
Candidates could mean anyonefrom those running for city
council to the local schoolboard, which you mentioned.
You served on the school boardfor many years in Abilene, all
the way up to president of theUnited States.
(15:24):
So we've just talked a lotabout what might be the right
and proper way to engagepolitics in a congregation.
You've stressed preaching theword that the Lord gives us to
preach through the scriptures.
Could you ever see a place?
(15:45):
Could you ever see a place ortime or occasion where it would
be appropriate for a preacher,for example, to endorse a
candidate from the pulpit?
Chris McCurley (15:56):
Yeah, not for me personally.
There may be preachers inchurch cultures where they feel
that that is important andadequate.
I would be opposed to that.
Our elders here, who areconservative men, who you know
feel strongly that you know thechurch should stand with the
word of God on certain issuesand especially those that we
(16:19):
call political in nature,whether it be abortion,
sexuality, those kinds of things, but they would even be opposed
to that, and even the church inAbilene that was very
conservative, would have beenopposed to that.
I'm opposed to that justbecause for a few reasons.
Number one I think we have anidolatry problem when it comes
to politics.
It's obviously divisive as well,and all the candidates are
(16:43):
flawed.
This idea that one has got itfigured out and is the perfect
man for the job because hechecks every box and the other
one doesn't, I mean it's justnot true.
They're flawed men and no matterwho gets elected, no matter how
much we may like him, no matterhow much we may revere him or
her, they're not preaching thegospel.
(17:05):
Right and I think that's aproblem too, or it has been a
problem in years past isChristians expect a candidate or
an elected official to do thework of a disciple to uphold our
Christian values and morals,and I would love for that to
happen, but it's just not goingto always, and so to expect that
(17:28):
person to do that, I thinkthat's futile.
I think it's our job to do that, and I hope that whoever's
elected will uphold the laws ofland, protect its citizens and
do the right thing and consultwith God and pray about.
You know that they have arelationship with God that
affects the way that they govern, but, at the end of the day,
(17:51):
whoever's in the White Housedoesn't change who I am and what
my mission is.
BT Irwin (17:58):
I'm trying to think about this from a point of view
of someone who might disagreewith you on that last point.
I grew up in my entire entryinto politics or interest in
politics when I was a teenagerin the 1990s, was the pro-life
movement right?
And so my parents and mygrandparents and my church
(18:20):
growing up just stressed to mehow important it was to save the
lives of unborn children, andpolitics is obviously a means by
which you can do that, and it'sactually really important.
It was always kind of a givengrowing up in my church
environment that you supportedcandidates who were pro-life,
(18:44):
and those candidates were almostalways Republican candidates.
And so there's a lot at stakehere.
Right, there are actual livesat stake, millions of unborn
babies.
Their lives are at stake.
And so I could hear someonelisten to the point you made
about not endorsing a politicalcandidate.
But somebody might say butChris, you know what about when
(19:04):
lives are at stake, such as inthe case of abortion, and you
have a candidate who's pro-liferunning against a candidate
who's pro-choice, you knowpro-abortion, why would you not
endorse the pro-life candidateto the members of your church?
Would you not endorse thepro-life?
Chris McCurley (19:21):
candidate to the members of your church.
My first response has nothingto do with spirituality.
My first response would be andhow has that worked?
You know, I mean we've hadcandidates that were pro-life
all the way through.
We've had candidates that hadcontrol of Congress and the
House.
That could have changed.
You know the abortion laws andthings of that nature that have
done nothing.
(19:41):
I mean, you know, here we are,abortion is still legal.
I mean, we've seen somemovement lately in that with
President Trump, and certainlyI'm all for that.
You know, there's issues thatare near and dear to all of us,
and that is one that is near anddear to me.
I personally could not vote forsomeone who's not pro-life
because I believe it's abiblical topic more than a
(20:03):
political topic, and so that isan issue that is a driver for me
when I vote.
I was talking more in generalterms of, you know, endorsing a
candidate from the pulpit,knowing that you, knowing that
they are flawed like anybodyelse, while they may have good
(20:24):
qualities and certainly thingsthat match up with what we
believe, then I think that's agiven, that's something to take
into consideration for sure,especially if there's a
candidate that doesn't upholdour Christian values.
So I want to be clear I wouldnot discourage my congregation
(20:47):
from voting or being involved inthe political process.
In fact, when we talk about itI tell them all the time go
ahead, vote, be involved.
You know, use the system thatwe have been given to affect
change as much as possible, butjust don't allow it to take an
(21:07):
unhealthy place in your life.
Don't allow it to occupy anunhealthy position in your life
Because at the end of the dayagain, whoever's in the White
House doesn't affect who we areand what our mission is.
Right, I hope that makes sense.
But yeah, I mean, I thinkabsolutely.
You know that you've gotextremes here.
(21:29):
You've got the David Lipscombextreme which says I don't think
you should be in politics andno Christian should ever be
invested in politics in any way,shape or form.
And then you've got the otherend of the spectrum which says
politics is the driver of myfaith rather than faith being
the driver of my politics.
And look, you don't have tovote.
It's not a sin if you don'tvote and it bothers me when we
(21:51):
make people feel guilty thatthey don't.
But for me personally, I wantto be involved and use the
system that we've been given tohopefully affect some change
like that.
I would love for abortion tonot be a thing and for it to be
completely wiped out and wenever have to worry about that
again.
Unfortunately, we've hadcandidates that had an
(22:12):
opportunity to make some bigchanges there and they didn't.
BT Irwin (22:15):
I think it certainly has changed a lot of people's
perspective on the issue thelast few years that it's not as
easy as maybe some of us thoughtor were led to believe.
I want to ask you about thesenew guidelines from the IRS.
I've been a church guy my wholelife and I don't remember ever
being around any church leaderswho said you know, what we
really need is we need theleeway to endorse political
(22:38):
candidates in our congregation.
These guidelines from the IRSare these a gift we didn't know
we needed in the church, ormight these become a temptation
that could catch us off guard?
Yes that's my answer.
Chris McCurley (22:52):
You know a gift from the standpoint that you
know it seemed that we wereheading in an unhealthy, scary
direction, in that we were goingto be limited as to what we
could talk about and what wecould preach on, even if it was
directly from the Bible.
But if it opposed, you knowwhoever was in office and the
(23:14):
mandates that they handed down.
So if you were preachingagainst, say, homosexuality,
abortion or something like that,then you know you could have
your tax exempt status takenaway.
And you know, obviously we wereheading towards a direction
where those things would beclassified as hate speech.
And I don't know how close wewere.
We saw other countries aroundus that were dealing with it and
it scared us, and you know,rightfully so.
(23:34):
And so a gift from thatstandpoint that that seems to
completely change the directionand move it back into a more
logical and reasonable position.
But yeah, I mean it can lead toan unhealthy fixation on
politics and really just play towhat I've already said, which
(23:56):
is further division, which isfurther division, further
idolatry, further makingpolitics more than what it needs
to be.
Again, I said it a while ago.
Let me frame it this wayPolitics can be useful and it
can be a resource, but when wemake it bigger than what it
(24:17):
should be is when it becomes aproblem.
By the way, you know whatpolitics means.
Right, you break it downPolymenian ticks, which are
blood sucking insects.
I mean that's what politicsmeans?
No, I mean it does get a badrap, and rightfully so.
But I don't think the answer isfor less Christians to be
involved.
I think the answer would be formore Christians to be involved.
(24:39):
I think the answer would be formore Christians to be involved,
but limiting that involvementso that it doesn't consume you
and pull you away from what'smost important.
BT Irwin (24:51):
Yeah, I'm heavily involved in politics local
politics as an expression ofneighbor love.
So I have been a public servantin my community because Jesus
commands me to love my neighbors, and so one of the ways that I
love my neighbors is throughlocal politics.
And so I believe in the classicdefinition of politics it's
(25:15):
basically the business of thecity, right?
The city of the polis, and it'syou know.
If, in your case, 16,000 peoplelive together in Dixon,
tennessee, they've got to find away to organize life right and
coexist, and politics in itsbest form is how you do that.
So we can't live without it,and yet it has.
It sometimes grows intosomething that's kind of
(25:36):
sinister.
I want to bring us back to thechurch, though, because we've
talked a lot about politics here, and one of the things I've
said probably a million times onthis show is this is not a show
about politics.
This is a show about the churchand its great commission, and
we bump into politics all thetime.
So it's something that we haveto talk about, but I don't want
(25:57):
to lose sight of why we'rereally here.
So we're Church Christ folks.
We aspire to derive everychurch practice from biblical
command example and inference.
What biblical command exampleinference could encourage and
support a congregation topossibly endorse a political
candidate?
Can you think of any?
Yeah, you know I can't think ofany.
Chris McCurley (26:18):
You know, book, chapter, verse, kind of thing.
And that's where I said amoment ago.
If you back way up and you lookat you know proper Bible study,
that's one of the things thatwe do right.
You know proper Bible study,that's one of the things that we
do right.
We start with an agenda or apreference and then we go to the
Bible and say what does theBible have to say about this?
And the truth of the matter iswhat happens more often than not
(26:41):
is the Bible doesn't haveanything to say about that, but
we want it to say somethingabout that.
So we put some verses togetherand we say, see, this backs up
or this supports my view here.
And I think the better questionis what does God say about this
?
And when you look at Jesus'sministry, he just didn't really
(27:03):
dig into politics.
I mean, the verses that we seeare him talking about render
under Caesar.
What is Caesar's?
And you know, I mean, basically, you've got a bigger mission in
mind here.
You know, don't get too caughtup in the way of Rome and what's
going on around you.
You know, obviously, when itbecomes a contradiction with
(27:25):
God's word or Jesus's mission,then you know we can't go along
any further.
Word or Jesus's mission, thenyou know we can't go along any
further.
But Jesus is saying you knowand I think that's the message
of you know the prophets as well, jeremiah, I mean, be a good
little citizen, you know, buildyour houses and plug into this
new community you're in and makea difference, bloom where
you're planted, right.
(27:46):
So I would think that thatwould be the basic message.
Also, I also feel like that youknow, if we're being who we
need to be, if we're striving tobe Jesus in this world around
followers and who are strivingto live out his mission were
(28:13):
involved in local politics andeven on a bigger level, how much
difference that would make.
What has happened is,unfortunately and I'm speaking
generally here but what'shappened is it's kind of like
the fan at the basketball gamethat's ranting and raving at the
referee and after they lose thegame they're blaming the's
ranting and raving at thereferee and after they lose the
game, they're blaming thereferees.
And how terrible the refereesare and I'm like well, but are
(28:36):
you attracting the best of thebest to the field of refereeing?
Because they know I'm going tobe treated horribly, I'm not
going to get paid a whole lot, Iget no respect.
I mean, after a while thepeople who are best suited for
the job say you know what, youcan find somebody else.
And I think we're seeing that alittle bit in our school
systems with coaches and eventeachers.
(28:58):
And I think you're seeing thatin the realm of politics is you
know, the people that you'reattracting to the job are not
necessarily the ones that youknow maybe are the best suited
for it, because you know whowants the job right.
And so how much better could itbe if folks that were Christ
(29:18):
followers said you know what?
I'm going to be involved in theprocess and try to do my best
to affect change, with God on myside.
BT Irwin (29:24):
I would encourage them to do that.
I've been twisting arms likecrazy in my community trying to
get the best and brightest torun for city council this fall,
and I've been twisting arms likecrazy in my community trying to
get the best and brightest torun for city council this fall,
and I've succeeded with a couple, I'm happy to say.
So I want to end with this.
When I think about how much werely on the Bible to inform and
inspire the lives that we leadas apprentices and students of
(29:47):
Jesus Christ and as the Churchof Christ, as apprentices and
students of Jesus Christ and asthe Church of Christ, one thing
that just really has kind ofoccurred to me in recent years
is the Christians in the firstcentury.
They could not possibly imaginethe station in life that
Christians hold in the UnitedStates in the 21st century.
They had very little power,very little influence, very few
(30:09):
rights.
They had very little power,very little influence, very few
rights, and so, as a preacher,looking back to the Bible to try
to figure out how to preach tothe church in 21st century
United States, how to encourageChristians to be involved in
their communities, toparticipate in politics, even to
(30:30):
be involved in theircommunities to participate in
politics.
Even I'm saying there's verylittle in the Bible from our
first century brothers andsisters to show us how to do
that, because that wasn't theworld in which they lived.
I don't know if you agree ordisagree with me on that point.
Chris McCurley (30:41):
I do agree with you.
Yeah the church, the firstchurch, never should have gotten
off the ground.
BT Irwin (30:46):
No, it shouldn't.
It's amazing that it survived,and only by the grace of God and
the power of God did it surviveout of the first century.
So, as a preacher and a teacher, when you look to scripture to
form this idea of what it lookslike for us as followers of
Jesus in 21st century America,where do you go?
(31:08):
What scriptures form the basisof what you teach to your folks
there?
Chris McCurley (31:15):
I tell our folks , and I try to remind them, that
, no matter which way theelection goes, whether it swings
in your favor or not, thechurch doesn't need politics,
the church doesn't needgovernment support, because the
first church didn't have it andthey thrived.
So that should be a lesson forus.
(31:35):
Would we love to have thesupport of whoever's in the
White House and federalgovernment?
Yes, would we love for them tomake it easier for us to do what
we do?
Yes, obviously, and we want tokeep certain protections and
certain rights, for sure.
But if we were a persecutedchurch, if we didn't have
government support, if this waslike, say, rome, and we were put
(31:58):
in a position to choose betweenthe emperor and God, we'd be
okay.
It wouldn't be ideal, based onwhat we've lived so far, but we
would be okay, and so that's one.
Based on what we've lived sofar, but we would be okay, and
so that's one.
But I think about you know, wementioned a while ago, but when
(32:18):
the Jews were taken into exileand they were told to just, you
know, basically get comfortable,have a family, you know, work
the land, you know, build a life, because you're going to be
here a while and try to be alight where you're at.
You know.
I think about Peter and hiswritings to persecuted
Christians and these exiles, asyou would have it, of the
dispersion, and he's tellingthem.
You know, it's not always goingto be this way, but for now
(32:40):
this is the way it is, and hetells them to pray.
Pray for your, for your leaders.
You know, even though you don'treally like them, even though
you don't agree with them, eventhough that they're kind of the
cause of all this, pray for yourleaders, pray for those in
positions like that, and that'stough to swallow.
I also believe that God hasalways worked through culture,
(33:00):
and so the culture that we're innow I believe God is working
through and I believe that youknow there is a lot that can be
done in this culture as well andfinding our place in that.
The Bible is a story, the storyof redemption, and when you get
baptized you are placed in thatstory and you get to live that
(33:21):
story.
So how are you going to live itout in the here and now?
And when I see all of thedivision and all of the vitriol
on social media, all of thedivision and all of the vitriol
on social media, or even withinthe church or in society around
us, I think and meanwhile thelost are still lost.
Here we are bickering andfighting over all this stuff and
(33:41):
meanwhile the lost are stilllost Because, again, no matter
how great government's going atthe time or how bad it is.
It's a man-made system andthose always fall.
They're always destined to fall, and it bothers me that we
don't expect perfection inanything else, certainly
politics.
(34:02):
If you agree with me on oneissue or two, yeah, you're hired
, I'm voting for that guy.
But we expect perfection in thechurch and we expect everything
to be perfect, and it's likeit's unrealistic.
You don't expect perfection inanything else in your life, but
yet if it's not perfect in thechurch, I'm out of here.
(34:22):
Yeah, and just learn, learn, youknow, learning how to, how to
get along and not just survive,but to thrive in this culture
when there's so much divisionand so much hatred.
You know the world has enoughdrama.
They don't need it at churchand this doesn't need to be an
episode of as the world turns.
I mean we need to be, we needto be out there and showing that
(34:45):
hey, you're, you're investingin politics and you're listening
to.
You know the culture around youand they're telling you what's
most important.
But here's what's mostimportant and we have a family
here and you can have arelationship with God and your
life will be astronomicallybetter, to the point that you
don't have to worry and beaffected by all that drama.
(35:06):
Does that make sense?
BT Irwin (35:07):
It does make sense, and I said that was going to be
the last question, but I'm goingto ask you this one because you
were quoting Jeremiah 29 at thebeginning of your answer, which
just happened to be the textthat we were looking at in adult
Bible class on Sunday morning.
And it hurts me, but thosepromises in Jeremiah 29,.
When God gave the exiles thosepromises, it was in anticipation
(35:29):
that they would go home.
So you're going to be inBabylon for a while, but I
promise you you will go home.
You will go back home someday.
And so I've been thinking sinceSunday morning about seeking
first the kingdom of God, whichfactors into what I'll be
preaching this Sunday.
Have we in the church in theWest, in the United States, have
(35:52):
we kind of forgotten how toseek first the kingdom of God?
Have we become forgetful aboutwhat that means, so that
politics has kind of moved intothat vacuum and has taken the
place in our imaginations andour minds of what the kingdom,
of what we should be waiting forand anticipating and working
toward.
It's become politics instead.
(36:14):
You get around a lot, you talkto a lot of people.
So I wonder if you're pickingup that vibe the same way I am.
Chris McCurley (36:20):
Absolutely.
You know the promises inJeremiah 29, 29, 11 is.
You know the email tagline andthe graduation card.
You know first, for I know theplans I have for you graduation
card.
You know first, for I know theplans I have for you.
And you know that wasn'twritten to you.
I tell people all the time theBible wasn't written to you, it
was written for you but itwasn't written to you.
And the heading just above,depending on the version you use
, just above chapter 29 saysmessage to exiles.
(36:43):
And you know it really wasn'tall that encouraging to many
people because some 70 years inthe future you're going to go
home, but for right now, so manypeople were not even going to
see that promise come tofruition.
And so, as a future hope andwhere that applies to us is,
yeah, we have a future hope youknow the whole God's going to
prosper me and all that.
(37:03):
You know, in the future you'regoing to live a very prosperous
existence in paradise with him.
But this idea that well, Iheard a guy say it this way you
have exegesis, which is properlyextracting from the text what
it means.
You have eisegesis, which issaying what I want it to say.
(37:26):
And then he said there'sanother called narcissus, where
I just make it out to apply tome.
And then he said there'sanother called Narcissus, where
I just make it out to apply tome.
And we do that with the Bibleall the time.
We read it devotionally,narcissistically, and I think we
do that with Jeremiah 29.
And I think that has a lot to dowith what you just asked is
(37:46):
we're kind of forgotten kingdompeople in that you know, jesus
brought the kingdom.
It's here and it's still tocome, you know right, but we're
in it now and I don't know that.
We always see that becausewe're so distracted by the
things that are going on aroundus.
And Jesus said my kingdom isnot of this world.
And I think that's crucial tounderstanding this whole
discussion is, you know, there'sa man-made kingdom and you've
(38:10):
got one foot in it and one footin the other.
It seems like most times, andit's hard sometimes to figure
out where I'm at, but at the endof the day that kingdom goes
away, that kingdom is not goingto be here long term.
This one is.
So you better focus yourattention on the one that's
going to last and not the onethat's going to be destroyed.
BT Irwin (38:29):
That's good.
Well, chris McCurley, I feellike I've just been on an
episode of Dear Church, so, butI got to ask the question, we
can make that happen.
I know I got to ask the question, so I hope you enjoyed
answering them.
Thank you for being our guesttoday Absolutely.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's a pleasure.
Awesome, it was a pleasure.
Awesome, it was a pleasure.
And while we're saying goodbye,I want to say a personal thank
(38:49):
you to Dr David Layton forinviting me to be his guest on
his Journey to Hope podcast.
I'll link it in the show notesand recommend it, not because I
got to be on it, but because DrLayton interviews so many people
who have stories that willboost your hope in God if you
find your hope sagging, as youfind your hope sagging, as we
all do from time to time.
So if you need some fresh windin your sails, I recommend the
(39:11):
Journey to Hope podcast.
I had a lot of fun being in theguest chair for a change.
Please check it out.
We hope something you heard inthis episode encouraged,
enlightened or enriched you insome way.
If it did, thanks be to God andplease pay it forward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Recommend and review itwherever you listen to your
favorite podcasts.
Your subscription,recommendation and review help
(39:34):
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Please send your comments,ideas and suggestions to podcast
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And don't forget our ministry toinform and inspire Christians
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So if you like the show and youwant to keep it going and make
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(39:56):
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The Christian Chronicle podcastis a production of the
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of Christ congregations,members and ministries around
the world since 1943.
The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Audrey
Jackson, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and executive director
(40:18):
and CEO Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis written, directed, hosted
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Podcast your Voice Studios inthe Motor City, detroit,
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Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
We're bringing you the storiesshaping Church of Christ,
congregations and members aroundthe world.
I'm BT Irwin.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
If you are a member of acongregation in the United
(00:25):
States, your congregation isexempt from paying taxes to the
federal government because it isclassified as a not-for-profit
organization.
Now, in order to maintain thattax-exempt status with the
Internal Revenue Service, yourcongregation must not do certain
things.
For example, your congregationmust not start making a profit
(00:50):
off of business activities thatare not related to its purpose
as a church.
So if your elders decide toopen a factory making and
selling communion trays at a bigmarkup, your congregation may
have a lot of explaining to doto the IRS.
Your tax-exempt status would bein trouble because now your
congregation is making a profitfrom a business unrelated to its
(01:14):
primary purpose as a house ofworship.
Another big no-no for churchesis endorsing or opposing
political candidates.
Since 1954, the US tax code hasbeen explicit that a house of
worship that uses its influenceto campaign for certain
candidates is no longeroperating under its primary
purpose and should not betax-exempt, but less than two
(01:37):
weeks before we recorded thisepisode, in mid-July 2025, the
Internal Revenue Service changedits interpretation of the tax
code.
So it now seems that churchesmay engage in political
endorsements in speech,including endorsing certain
candidates for office, withoutendangering their tax-exempt
status.
So are we entering a new era inwhich your congregation may
(02:02):
choose to endorse or oppose aparticular politician?
Imagine hearing your preacherendorse a candidate from the
pulpit or reading your elder'sendorsement of a candidate in
the church bulletin.
It seems that the IRS is nowallowing for that to happen, but
is that a good thing?
Today, we'll explore thatquestion with Chris McCurley,
(02:23):
the preaching minister with theWalnut Street Church of Christ
in Dixon, tennessee, and host ofthe popular Dear Church podcast
, where Chris and his guestsexplore questions like this one.
Chris, thanks for coming back onour show.
Sure, thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure.
So a lot of research over thelast few years reveals that
people in the pew seem to havean appetite to hear more
(02:44):
biblical guidance and teachingon what we might call the social
issues of the day.
For example, a couple ofepisodes back, we had Scott
McConnell from LifeWay Research.
They released a study thatrevealed a big majority of
Americans who identify asChristian want their pastors and
preachers to teach a lot moreabout what the Bible has to say
about treatment of immigrants,for example.
(03:04):
A lot more about what the Biblehas to say about treatment of
immigrants, for example.
So at the same time, there'sbeen this similar research that
shows how congregationalministers hesitate or shrink
back from doing that to thedegree or detail that the people
in the pews might want.
So let's start here.
How much better do you thinkelders, preachers and teachers
could do to guide theircongregations into deeper and
more biblical explorations ofthe social issues of the day?
Chris McCurley (03:26):
Yeah well, I think we can always do better.
I would back up and say youcan't always let the people in
the pew dictate what you preach.
That's a dangerous premise.
However, it is true thatwhatever you see going on in
society, whatever thequote-unquote issue is, it's
going to seep into the churchand so it's going to force you
to deal with it.
And right now, politics and allthat goes along with that, that
(03:51):
big ball of wax is like theIndiana Jones movie.
He's running from that bigboulder that's chasing him.
That's kind of where we're at.
I mean, it's coming after usand it's bearing down on us, and
so it would behoove us to talkabout some of these things.
Can we always do better?
Absolutely.
But at the same time, I thinkthat you know our churches that
(04:12):
I know of anyway, and I don'tknow all of them are doing a
pretty good job of being able tosay you know what?
Here's what's going on insociety.
Here's how we, as Christians,should respond, and I think
that's the angle.
I think we should look at itfrom a standpoint of you know,
as image bearers in the world,which is what we were created to
(04:33):
be.
How can we respond to, you know, the immigration issue or
whatever the issue is out there.
I think that the reason why somany in the pew are wanting to
hear about those things isbecause they're getting
confusing messages from theworld around them.
And what do you believe anymore, right?
(04:55):
I mean, if you get your newsfrom social media, which a lot
of young people do, well, whatdo you believe?
Because you know, if you lookat this recently, this big, well
, what do you believe Becauseyou know, if you look at this
recently, this big, beautifulbill that you know was put forth
?
And I mean, depending on whatside of the aisle you're
listening to, it's either thebest thing in the world or the
worst thing in the world, andeverybody's going to die.
(05:15):
And it's horrible, right?
And so what do you believeanymore?
And I think that that's part ofthe reason why this research
indicates people want to hear isbecause we don't know.
Trying to choose, okay, are we?
BT Irwin (05:45):
going to teach on immigration, for example, since
that's the one that just came upa couple of weeks ago, or are
we going to do something else?
How do you make those decisions?
Yeah?
Chris McCurley (05:55):
so I think it's important to have a pulse on the
congregation and a pulse onwhat's going on in the world
around you, especially in yourcommunity, right, because I'm in
a small community of about16,000.
Our county is about 55,000.
So what is affecting our peopleis going to be different than
somebody who's preaching inurban Chicago.
(06:17):
Right Now we are just on theoutskirts of Nashville, and so
that does seep in somewhat.
But I'm also in the South where, you know, it's not just the
Bible Belt, but where I'm at isprobably the buckle of the Bible
Belt, and so you know there'smostly conservative values and
so I'm preaching to the choir.
You know, a lot of times whenyou're talking about certain
(06:39):
conservative issues.
But I just try to always takethe approach of you know what is
God speaking to this?
Does he have anything to sayabout this?
Because sometimes he doesn't,right?
I think that's where we get offtrack, sometimes as well, is we
want the Bible to answer aquestion that it's.
You know it's not asking, andso we've got to be careful there
(07:02):
.
But instead of just picking theissue of, say, immigration we
brought that one up Instead ofpicking that issue necessarily
and saying here's where theDemocrats have it wrong where
the Republicans have it right,and vice versa.
Let's talk about the twogreatest commands, the Shema in
Hebrew Love the Lord, your God,with all of your heart, soul,
mind and strength.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
How does that set the tone forhow we treat all people?
(07:24):
You know that's love your heart, soul, mind and strength.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
How does that set the tone forhow we treat all people?
That's just an example, and sotrying to take it from the
standpoint of the world's goingto tell you these are political
issues, but when you boil itdown, whether it's abortion or
whatever, those are biblicaltopics, right, and so how do we
approach them from a biblicalstandpoint?
BT Irwin (07:41):
I think one of the hard things for preachers or
teachers or anyone who stands upand speaks in public in front
of the church is that you'veheard it said pastors say that
they have their congregation foran hour on Sunday morning and
then cable news has them andsocial media has them.
The rest of the time is thatthe things that it almost feels
(08:05):
like politics is setting theagenda and creating the field of
play.
And so, as a preacher, when youstand up to preach the message
on Sunday morning, it's almostlike you don't have home field
advantage and people are goingto interpret things.
You say the things that youshare from the Bible, but
(08:25):
they're going to filter thosethrough all the filters that
they've picked up during theweek.
And how do you overcome that asa preacher?
Chris McCurley (08:34):
That's a really good point, because I do feel
like that politics is settingthe agenda, that it's the home
team and we're just visitors.
But I mean, that's really trueof Christianity in general and
as disciples, this is not ourhome turf.
You know this is the devil'splayground and you know we are
exiles in this world and we'rewaiting for something better.
And so you know, peter calls usaliens and strangers and
sojourners, and so that I meanthat's always been true, right.
(08:57):
But you know, for me, what I'malways trying to do from the
pulpit is to bring our peopleback around to Jesus and the
gospel, because you know, thechurch is to be the agency about
which the story of salvation isto be told.
That is our number oneresponsibility.
We are to love God, love ourneighbors.
You know that is the twogreatest commandments.
(09:19):
So I'm always trying to bringour people back around to that.
And maybe I'm guilty sometimesof just pushing politics
completely aside, but it hasbecome an idol in our culture
and it's become an idol in thechurch.
There are Christians whoidolize politics, and so I'm
constantly, especially inelection year, trying to bring
(09:39):
people around about.
Hey, remember, what's mostimportant here is not a man-made
kingdom that's destined to fall, but rather Jesus's kingdom,
and he has an agenda to changethe world.
And that's how you change theworld not through politics, but
one soul at a time, becauseyou're not here very long, right
, and so it's important toremember the mission and
(10:01):
remember what we are to be about.
BT Irwin (10:03):
Personal question you just brought up an election year
in politics On a scale of oneto 10, 10 being the most and one
being the least.
How exhausted have you felt atany point in our political
climate trying to preach thekingdom against all the inertia
and the headwinds of politics?
(10:23):
Yeah, I'd say a 12 for sure.
Chris McCurley (10:26):
You know I mean it is absolutely exhausting.
Now I will say that I am at acongregation in Dixon, tennessee
, where our folks are reasonableand logical.
When it comes to that.
I don't fight a lot of theChristian nationalism and the
idolatry that you see.
It doesn't permeate us as much.
I think there are plenty ofpeople here that are politically
(10:49):
minded, but they don't bring itto the altar, so to speak, and
worship it.
They keep it in a good placefor the most part.
I think there's alwaysexceptions, but I think we've
got a great group here, so Idon't deal with it as much on a
church level, but just theminutiae that you see on social
(11:11):
media and just the constantbickering back and forth on
social media.
As a minister, I feel a need tobe on social media and I use it
to promote the message andpromote Jesus.
And I mean, it's a bathroomwall, isn't it?
It's just, it's terrible.
And so, yeah, it actuallycauses you to be very jaded.
(11:34):
And you know, when I was inAbilene, texas, I was on the
school board for many years andso I was involved in local
politics and I got to be honestwith you the older I get, the
more I seem like.
You know I just I don't wantanything to do with it and I
know that's not necessarily thebest option, but I get to where
I'm like.
(11:54):
Just please turn off the TV,turn off anything that could you
know.
Get into my ears about politicsbecause I'm so tired of it.
BT Irwin (12:02):
So 12,.
I'm sorry, man, I'm reallysorry.
That was a whole lot worse thanI expected, yeah yeah.
So just an aside, here at ourcongregation we have about 250
people and I remember a fewyears ago not too long ago now a
lot of people confided to methat they really wanted to talk
(12:23):
about politics in church andthey weren't coming to me
because they, because they weretrying to figure out who would
get their vote or what partythey said should support or who
was wrong or whatever.
But almost all of them came andconfided to me because they
were hurting really, really badand they felt like there was
(12:46):
division and they felt likerelationships were falling apart
in the church and so theyreally wanted to talk about
politics, they wanted to sortthrough all that and you
understand, you understandthat's a minefield, right?
For a church to decide to gothere.
So I want to get down to thenew guidelines that the Internal
(13:07):
Revenue Service recentlyannounced.
In simple language, the IRS nowseems to be giving houses of
worship a lot more leeway toparticipate in politics without
losing their tax-exempt status,and the reason that the IRS gave
for the change is thatcongregations ought to be free,
under the First Amendment of theUS Constitution, to discuss and
(13:27):
talk about the issues of theday, including what most folks
call politics.
So you can't speak for allministers everywhere, but in
your own experience, have youever felt that you could not
talk about certain things incertain ways because it could
jeopardize your congregation'stax-exempt status?
Chris McCurley (13:52):
I've never felt that.
Of course, I have been inchurches that were in
conservative settings and inconservative states.
So I was in Texas beforeTennessee and both are
conservative states.
That you know.
I mean it's going to be hard toput your tax exempt status in
jeopardy in these states Nowwhen the federal government gets
involved and depending on who'sin the White House.
(14:14):
We've had some times recentlywhere that's been brought up and
there was a bit of someparanoia that that might happen.
I don't know that we've everbeen close to that as much as
many have tried to scare us intothinking that we were.
But I mean there was apossibility, right, that many of
us were, you know, kind ofpondering could this happen and
(14:35):
if it does, what would happen.
But I think you know, for meI've never been in a situation
where I've had to worry aboutthat and if I was, I would just
do what I feel like I'm calledto do, which is preach the word
and try to do it to the best ofmy ability and whatever happens,
you kind of let the chips fallwhere they may, right?
(14:56):
But yeah, to answer thatquestion, no, I've never felt
that, but I've also been in abubble, if you will.
BT Irwin (15:03):
Never felt that, but I've also been in a bubble, if
you will.
The new guidelines from the IRSseem to give congregations
leeway to even endorsecandidates for political office,
including from the pulpit.
Candidates could mean anyonefrom those running for city
council to the local schoolboard, which you mentioned.
You served on the school boardfor many years in Abilene, all
the way up to president of theUnited States.
(15:24):
So we've just talked a lotabout what might be the right
and proper way to engagepolitics in a congregation.
You've stressed preaching theword that the Lord gives us to
preach through the scriptures.
Could you ever see a place?
(15:45):
Could you ever see a place ortime or occasion where it would
be appropriate for a preacher,for example, to endorse a
candidate from the pulpit?
Chris McCurley (15:56):
Yeah, not for me personally.
There may be preachers inchurch cultures where they feel
that that is important andadequate.
I would be opposed to that.
Our elders here, who areconservative men, who you know
feel strongly that you know thechurch should stand with the
word of God on certain issuesand especially those that we
(16:19):
call political in nature,whether it be abortion,
sexuality, those kinds of things, but they would even be opposed
to that, and even the church inAbilene that was very
conservative, would have beenopposed to that.
I'm opposed to that justbecause for a few reasons.
Number one I think we have anidolatry problem when it comes
to politics.
It's obviously divisive as well,and all the candidates are
(16:43):
flawed.
This idea that one has got itfigured out and is the perfect
man for the job because hechecks every box and the other
one doesn't, I mean it's justnot true.
They're flawed men and no matterwho gets elected, no matter how
much we may like him, no matterhow much we may revere him or
her, they're not preaching thegospel.
(17:05):
Right and I think that's aproblem too, or it has been a
problem in years past isChristians expect a candidate or
an elected official to do thework of a disciple to uphold our
Christian values and morals,and I would love for that to
happen, but it's just not goingto always, and so to expect that
(17:28):
person to do that, I thinkthat's futile.
I think it's our job to do that, and I hope that whoever's
elected will uphold the laws ofland, protect its citizens and
do the right thing and consultwith God and pray about.
You know that they have arelationship with God that
affects the way that they govern, but, at the end of the day,
(17:51):
whoever's in the White Housedoesn't change who I am and what
my mission is.
BT Irwin (17:58):
I'm trying to think about this from a point of view
of someone who might disagreewith you on that last point.
I grew up in my entire entryinto politics or interest in
politics when I was a teenagerin the 1990s, was the pro-life
movement right?
And so my parents and mygrandparents and my church
(18:20):
growing up just stressed to mehow important it was to save the
lives of unborn children, andpolitics is obviously a means by
which you can do that, and it'sactually really important.
It was always kind of a givengrowing up in my church
environment that you supportedcandidates who were pro-life,
(18:44):
and those candidates were almostalways Republican candidates.
And so there's a lot at stakehere.
Right, there are actual livesat stake, millions of unborn
babies.
Their lives are at stake.
And so I could hear someonelisten to the point you made
about not endorsing a politicalcandidate.
But somebody might say butChris, you know what about when
(19:04):
lives are at stake, such as inthe case of abortion, and you
have a candidate who's pro-liferunning against a candidate
who's pro-choice, you knowpro-abortion, why would you not
endorse the pro-life candidateto the members of your church?
Would you not endorse thepro-life?
Chris McCurley (19:21):
candidate to the members of your church.
My first response has nothingto do with spirituality.
My first response would be andhow has that worked?
You know, I mean we've hadcandidates that were pro-life
all the way through.
We've had candidates that hadcontrol of Congress and the
House.
That could have changed.
You know the abortion laws andthings of that nature that have
done nothing.
(19:41):
I mean, you know, here we are,abortion is still legal.
I mean, we've seen somemovement lately in that with
President Trump, and certainlyI'm all for that.
You know, there's issues thatare near and dear to all of us,
and that is one that is near anddear to me.
I personally could not vote forsomeone who's not pro-life
because I believe it's abiblical topic more than a
(20:03):
political topic, and so that isan issue that is a driver for me
when I vote.
I was talking more in generalterms of, you know, endorsing a
candidate from the pulpit,knowing that you, knowing that
they are flawed like anybodyelse, while they may have good
(20:24):
qualities and certainly thingsthat match up with what we
believe, then I think that's agiven, that's something to take
into consideration for sure,especially if there's a
candidate that doesn't upholdour Christian values.
So I want to be clear I wouldnot discourage my congregation
(20:47):
from voting or being involved inthe political process.
In fact, when we talk about itI tell them all the time go
ahead, vote, be involved.
You know, use the system thatwe have been given to affect
change as much as possible, butjust don't allow it to take an
(21:07):
unhealthy place in your life.
Don't allow it to occupy anunhealthy position in your life
Because at the end of the dayagain, whoever's in the White
House doesn't affect who we areand what our mission is.
Right, I hope that makes sense.
But yeah, I mean, I thinkabsolutely.
You know that you've gotextremes here.
(21:29):
You've got the David Lipscombextreme which says I don't think
you should be in politics andno Christian should ever be
invested in politics in any way,shape or form.
And then you've got the otherend of the spectrum which says
politics is the driver of myfaith rather than faith being
the driver of my politics.
And look, you don't have tovote.
It's not a sin if you don'tvote and it bothers me when we
(21:51):
make people feel guilty thatthey don't.
But for me personally, I wantto be involved and use the
system that we've been given tohopefully affect some change
like that.
I would love for abortion tonot be a thing and for it to be
completely wiped out and wenever have to worry about that
again.
Unfortunately, we've hadcandidates that had an
(22:12):
opportunity to make some bigchanges there and they didn't.
BT Irwin (22:15):
I think it certainly has changed a lot of people's
perspective on the issue thelast few years that it's not as
easy as maybe some of us thoughtor were led to believe.
I want to ask you about thesenew guidelines from the IRS.
I've been a church guy my wholelife and I don't remember ever
being around any church leaderswho said you know, what we
really need is we need theleeway to endorse political
(22:38):
candidates in our congregation.
These guidelines from the IRSare these a gift we didn't know
we needed in the church, ormight these become a temptation
that could catch us off guard?
Yes that's my answer.
Chris McCurley (22:52):
You know a gift from the standpoint that you
know it seemed that we wereheading in an unhealthy, scary
direction, in that we were goingto be limited as to what we
could talk about and what wecould preach on, even if it was
directly from the Bible.
But if it opposed, you knowwhoever was in office and the
(23:14):
mandates that they handed down.
So if you were preachingagainst, say, homosexuality,
abortion or something like that,then you know you could have
your tax exempt status takenaway.
And you know, obviously we wereheading towards a direction
where those things would beclassified as hate speech.
And I don't know how close wewere.
We saw other countries aroundus that were dealing with it and
it scared us, and you know,rightfully so.
(23:34):
And so a gift from thatstandpoint that that seems to
completely change the directionand move it back into a more
logical and reasonable position.
But yeah, I mean it can lead toan unhealthy fixation on
politics and really just play towhat I've already said, which
(23:56):
is further division, which isfurther division, further
idolatry, further makingpolitics more than what it needs
to be.
Again, I said it a while ago.
Let me frame it this wayPolitics can be useful and it
can be a resource, but when wemake it bigger than what it
(24:17):
should be is when it becomes aproblem.
By the way, you know whatpolitics means.
Right, you break it downPolymenian ticks, which are
blood sucking insects.
I mean that's what politicsmeans?
No, I mean it does get a badrap, and rightfully so.
But I don't think the answer isfor less Christians to be
involved.
I think the answer would be formore Christians to be involved.
(24:39):
I think the answer would be formore Christians to be involved,
but limiting that involvementso that it doesn't consume you
and pull you away from what'smost important.
BT Irwin (24:51):
Yeah, I'm heavily involved in politics local
politics as an expression ofneighbor love.
So I have been a public servantin my community because Jesus
commands me to love my neighbors, and so one of the ways that I
love my neighbors is throughlocal politics.
And so I believe in the classicdefinition of politics it's
(25:15):
basically the business of thecity, right?
The city of the polis, and it'syou know.
If, in your case, 16,000 peoplelive together in Dixon,
tennessee, they've got to find away to organize life right and
coexist, and politics in itsbest form is how you do that.
So we can't live without it,and yet it has.
It sometimes grows intosomething that's kind of
(25:36):
sinister.
I want to bring us back to thechurch, though, because we've
talked a lot about politics here, and one of the things I've
said probably a million times onthis show is this is not a show
about politics.
This is a show about the churchand its great commission, and
we bump into politics all thetime.
So it's something that we haveto talk about, but I don't want
(25:57):
to lose sight of why we'rereally here.
So we're Church Christ folks.
We aspire to derive everychurch practice from biblical
command example and inference.
What biblical command exampleinference could encourage and
support a congregation topossibly endorse a political
candidate?
Can you think of any?
Yeah, you know I can't think ofany.
Chris McCurley (26:18):
You know, book, chapter, verse, kind of thing.
And that's where I said amoment ago.
If you back way up and you lookat you know proper Bible study,
that's one of the things thatwe do right.
You know proper Bible study,that's one of the things that we
do right.
We start with an agenda or apreference and then we go to the
Bible and say what does theBible have to say about this?
And the truth of the matter iswhat happens more often than not
(26:41):
is the Bible doesn't haveanything to say about that, but
we want it to say somethingabout that.
So we put some verses togetherand we say, see, this backs up
or this supports my view here.
And I think the better questionis what does God say about this
?
And when you look at Jesus'sministry, he just didn't really
(27:03):
dig into politics.
I mean, the verses that we seeare him talking about render
under Caesar.
What is Caesar's?
And you know, I mean, basically, you've got a bigger mission in
mind here.
You know, don't get too caughtup in the way of Rome and what's
going on around you.
You know, obviously, when itbecomes a contradiction with
(27:25):
God's word or Jesus's mission,then you know we can't go along
any further.
Word or Jesus's mission, thenyou know we can't go along any
further.
But Jesus is saying you knowand I think that's the message
of you know the prophets as well, jeremiah, I mean, be a good
little citizen, you know, buildyour houses and plug into this
new community you're in and makea difference, bloom where
you're planted, right.
(27:46):
So I would think that thatwould be the basic message.
Also, I also feel like that youknow, if we're being who we
need to be, if we're striving tobe Jesus in this world around
followers and who are strivingto live out his mission were
(28:13):
involved in local politics andeven on a bigger level, how much
difference that would make.
What has happened is,unfortunately and I'm speaking
generally here but what'shappened is it's kind of like
the fan at the basketball gamethat's ranting and raving at the
referee and after they lose thegame they're blaming the's
ranting and raving at thereferee and after they lose the
game, they're blaming thereferees.
And how terrible the refereesare and I'm like well, but are
(28:36):
you attracting the best of thebest to the field of refereeing?
Because they know I'm going tobe treated horribly, I'm not
going to get paid a whole lot, Iget no respect.
I mean, after a while thepeople who are best suited for
the job say you know what, youcan find somebody else.
And I think we're seeing that alittle bit in our school
systems with coaches and eventeachers.
(28:58):
And I think you're seeing thatin the realm of politics is you
know, the people that you'reattracting to the job are not
necessarily the ones that youknow maybe are the best suited
for it, because you know whowants the job right.
And so how much better could itbe if folks that were Christ
(29:18):
followers said you know what?
I'm going to be involved in theprocess and try to do my best
to affect change, with God on myside.
BT Irwin (29:24):
I would encourage them to do that.
I've been twisting arms likecrazy in my community trying to
get the best and brightest torun for city council this fall,
and I've been twisting arms likecrazy in my community trying to
get the best and brightest torun for city council this fall,
and I've succeeded with a couple, I'm happy to say.
So I want to end with this.
When I think about how much werely on the Bible to inform and
inspire the lives that we leadas apprentices and students of
(29:47):
Jesus Christ and as the Churchof Christ, as apprentices and
students of Jesus Christ and asthe Church of Christ, one thing
that just really has kind ofoccurred to me in recent years
is the Christians in the firstcentury.
They could not possibly imaginethe station in life that
Christians hold in the UnitedStates in the 21st century.
They had very little power,very little influence, very few
(30:09):
rights.
They had very little power,very little influence, very few
rights, and so, as a preacher,looking back to the Bible to try
to figure out how to preach tothe church in 21st century
United States, how to encourageChristians to be involved in
their communities, toparticipate in politics, even to
(30:30):
be involved in theircommunities to participate in
politics.
Even I'm saying there's verylittle in the Bible from our
first century brothers andsisters to show us how to do
that, because that wasn't theworld in which they lived.
I don't know if you agree ordisagree with me on that point.
Chris McCurley (30:41):
I do agree with you.
Yeah the church, the firstchurch, never should have gotten
off the ground.
BT Irwin (30:46):
No, it shouldn't.
It's amazing that it survived,and only by the grace of God and
the power of God did it surviveout of the first century.
So, as a preacher and a teacher, when you look to scripture to
form this idea of what it lookslike for us as followers of
Jesus in 21st century America,where do you go?
(31:08):
What scriptures form the basisof what you teach to your folks
there?
Chris McCurley (31:15):
I tell our folks , and I try to remind them, that
, no matter which way theelection goes, whether it swings
in your favor or not, thechurch doesn't need politics,
the church doesn't needgovernment support, because the
first church didn't have it andthey thrived.
So that should be a lesson forus.
(31:35):
Would we love to have thesupport of whoever's in the
White House and federalgovernment?
Yes, would we love for them tomake it easier for us to do what
we do?
Yes, obviously, and we want tokeep certain protections and
certain rights, for sure.
But if we were a persecutedchurch, if we didn't have
government support, if this waslike, say, rome, and we were put
(31:58):
in a position to choose betweenthe emperor and God, we'd be
okay.
It wouldn't be ideal, based onwhat we've lived so far, but we
would be okay, and so that's one.
Based on what we've lived sofar, but we would be okay, and
so that's one.
But I think about you know, wementioned a while ago, but when
(32:18):
the Jews were taken into exileand they were told to just, you
know, basically get comfortable,have a family, you know, work
the land, you know, build a life, because you're going to be
here a while and try to be alight where you're at.
You know.
I think about Peter and hiswritings to persecuted
Christians and these exiles, asyou would have it, of the
dispersion, and he's tellingthem.
You know, it's not always goingto be this way, but for now
(32:40):
this is the way it is, and hetells them to pray.
Pray for your, for your leaders.
You know, even though you don'treally like them, even though
you don't agree with them, eventhough that they're kind of the
cause of all this, pray for yourleaders, pray for those in
positions like that, and that'stough to swallow.
I also believe that God hasalways worked through culture,
(33:00):
and so the culture that we're innow I believe God is working
through and I believe that youknow there is a lot that can be
done in this culture as well andfinding our place in that.
The Bible is a story, the storyof redemption, and when you get
baptized you are placed in thatstory and you get to live that
(33:21):
story.
So how are you going to live itout in the here and now?
And when I see all of thedivision and all of the vitriol
on social media, all of thedivision and all of the vitriol
on social media, or even withinthe church or in society around
us, I think and meanwhile thelost are still lost.
Here we are bickering andfighting over all this stuff and
(33:41):
meanwhile the lost are stilllost Because, again, no matter
how great government's going atthe time or how bad it is.
It's a man-made system andthose always fall.
They're always destined to fall, and it bothers me that we
don't expect perfection inanything else, certainly
politics.
(34:02):
If you agree with me on oneissue or two, yeah, you're hired
, I'm voting for that guy.
But we expect perfection in thechurch and we expect everything
to be perfect, and it's likeit's unrealistic.
You don't expect perfection inanything else in your life, but
yet if it's not perfect in thechurch, I'm out of here.
(34:22):
Yeah, and just learn, learn, youknow, learning how to, how to
get along and not just survive,but to thrive in this culture
when there's so much divisionand so much hatred.
You know the world has enoughdrama.
They don't need it at churchand this doesn't need to be an
episode of as the world turns.
I mean we need to be, we needto be out there and showing that
(34:45):
hey, you're, you're investingin politics and you're listening
to.
You know the culture around youand they're telling you what's
most important.
But here's what's mostimportant and we have a family
here and you can have arelationship with God and your
life will be astronomicallybetter, to the point that you
don't have to worry and beaffected by all that drama.
(35:06):
Does that make sense?
BT Irwin (35:07):
It does make sense, and I said that was going to be
the last question, but I'm goingto ask you this one because you
were quoting Jeremiah 29 at thebeginning of your answer, which
just happened to be the textthat we were looking at in adult
Bible class on Sunday morning.
And it hurts me, but thosepromises in Jeremiah 29,.
When God gave the exiles thosepromises, it was in anticipation
(35:29):
that they would go home.
So you're going to be inBabylon for a while, but I
promise you you will go home.
You will go back home someday.
And so I've been thinking sinceSunday morning about seeking
first the kingdom of God, whichfactors into what I'll be
preaching this Sunday.
Have we in the church in theWest, in the United States, have
(35:52):
we kind of forgotten how toseek first the kingdom of God?
Have we become forgetful aboutwhat that means, so that
politics has kind of moved intothat vacuum and has taken the
place in our imaginations andour minds of what the kingdom,
of what we should be waiting forand anticipating and working
toward.
It's become politics instead.
(36:14):
You get around a lot, you talkto a lot of people.
So I wonder if you're pickingup that vibe the same way I am.
Chris McCurley (36:20):
Absolutely.
You know the promises inJeremiah 29, 29, 11 is.
You know the email tagline andthe graduation card.
You know first, for I know theplans I have for you graduation
card.
You know first, for I know theplans I have for you.
And you know that wasn'twritten to you.
I tell people all the time theBible wasn't written to you, it
was written for you but itwasn't written to you.
And the heading just above,depending on the version you use
, just above chapter 29 saysmessage to exiles.
(36:43):
And you know it really wasn'tall that encouraging to many
people because some 70 years inthe future you're going to go
home, but for right now, so manypeople were not even going to
see that promise come tofruition.
And so, as a future hope andwhere that applies to us is,
yeah, we have a future hope youknow the whole God's going to
prosper me and all that.
(37:03):
You know, in the future you'regoing to live a very prosperous
existence in paradise with him.
But this idea that well, Iheard a guy say it this way you
have exegesis, which is properlyextracting from the text what
it means.
You have eisegesis, which issaying what I want it to say.
(37:26):
And then he said there'sanother called narcissus, where
I just make it out to apply tome.
And then he said there'sanother called Narcissus, where
I just make it out to apply tome.
And we do that with the Bibleall the time.
We read it devotionally,narcissistically, and I think we
do that with Jeremiah 29.
And I think that has a lot to dowith what you just asked is
(37:46):
we're kind of forgotten kingdompeople in that you know, jesus
brought the kingdom.
It's here and it's still tocome, you know right, but we're
in it now and I don't know that.
We always see that becausewe're so distracted by the
things that are going on aroundus.
And Jesus said my kingdom isnot of this world.
And I think that's crucial tounderstanding this whole
discussion is, you know, there'sa man-made kingdom and you've
(38:10):
got one foot in it and one footin the other.
It seems like most times, andit's hard sometimes to figure
out where I'm at, but at the endof the day that kingdom goes
away, that kingdom is not goingto be here long term.
This one is.
So you better focus yourattention on the one that's
going to last and not the onethat's going to be destroyed.
BT Irwin (38:29):
That's good.
Well, chris McCurley, I feellike I've just been on an
episode of Dear Church, so, butI got to ask the question, we
can make that happen.
I know I got to ask the question, so I hope you enjoyed
answering them.
Thank you for being our guesttoday Absolutely.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's a pleasure.
Awesome, it was a pleasure.
Awesome, it was a pleasure.
And while we're saying goodbye,I want to say a personal thank
(38:49):
you to Dr David Layton forinviting me to be his guest on
his Journey to Hope podcast.
I'll link it in the show notesand recommend it, not because I
got to be on it, but because DrLayton interviews so many people
who have stories that willboost your hope in God if you
find your hope sagging, as youfind your hope sagging, as we
all do from time to time.
So if you need some fresh windin your sails, I recommend the
(39:11):
Journey to Hope podcast.
I had a lot of fun being in theguest chair for a change.
Please check it out.
We hope something you heard inthis episode encouraged,
enlightened or enriched you insome way.
If it did, thanks be to God andplease pay it forward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Recommend and review itwherever you listen to your
favorite podcasts.
Your subscription,recommendation and review help
(39:34):
us reach more people.
Please send your comments,ideas and suggestions to podcast
at christianchronicleorg.
And don't forget our ministry toinform and inspire Christians
and congregations around theworld is a non-profit ministry
that relies on your generosity.
So if you like the show and youwant to keep it going and make
it even better, please make atax-deductible gift to the
(39:56):
Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg slash
donate.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis a production of the
Christian Chronicle Incorporated, informing and inspiring Church
of Christ congregations,members and ministries around
the world since 1943.
The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Audrey
Jackson, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and executive director
(40:18):
and CEO Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis written, directed, hosted
and edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan at
Podcast your Voice Studios inthe Motor City, detroit,
michigan, usa.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
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