The two youngest members of The Christian Chronicle's full-time news team are incoming managing editor Calvin Cockrell (Gen Y) and outgoing managing editor Audrey Jackson (Gen Z). In this episode, they talk about how working with The Christian Chronicle is exposing them to the Church of Christ they never imagined or knew. They also talk about what it is like to be journalists at a time when the profession is under cultural, economic and political duress. And, if they were to start a new Christian Chronicle just for Christians under the age of 30, how would it be different from The Christian Chronicle of preceding generations?
Link to The Christian Chronicle on TikTok (referenced in the interview)
Donate to support this ministry of "information and inspiration" at christianchronicle.org/donate
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Learn more about how to visit the Bible lands as a graduate student at the Freed-Hardeman University Graduate School of Theology at fhu.edu/chronicle
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
BT Irwin (00:03):
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
We're bringing you the storiesshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
I'm BT Irwin.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
Just to give you an idea of theChristian Chronicle's age, here
are some things that happened in1943, the year that the first
(00:26):
issue of the Christian Chroniclerolled off the press in Texas.
World War II raged across theplanet, franklin Roosevelt was
president of the United Statesand that year he became the
first US president to travel byairplane on presidential
business, crossing the Atlanticto meet with British Prime
Minister Winston Churchill inCasablanca.
Cs Lewis published his classicthe Screwtape Letters, and the
(00:51):
pages of the Christian Chroniclereported on how Church of
Christ congregations wereevangelizing through an
innovative use of a fast-growingtechnology radio.
So yeah, the ChristianChronicle has been around for a
long time and the world haschanged a lot since that very
first issue.
And that's why it was big newswhen the Christian Chronicle
hired 20-something-year-oldrecent college graduate Audrey
(01:13):
Jackson.
On her first day she loweredthe average age of the Christian
Chronicle news team by oh quitea lot.
About a year later, theChristian Chronicle brought on
another 20-something, calvinCockrell, to fill a whole new
role converting or creatingChristian Chronicle content for
social media, most of all socialmedia popular with the youngest
generations.
Age is just a number.
(01:35):
Age is just a number.
What matters for a ministrylike the Christian Chronicle is
that it be accessible, relevantand valuable to Christians of
all ages and from as manybackgrounds as there are places
in the world where the Church ofChrist puts down roots.
To that end, audrey and Calvinhave been big contributors.
For example, over the last fouryears Audrey has reported some
(01:56):
of the deepest diving, mostrevealing, thoughtful stories
we've ever run, from 18countries where she traveled,
including the United States, andas managing editor she played a
key role in the branding andredesign of the Christian
Chronicle last year.
But the day after we record thisepisode will be Audrey's last
day with us.
She recently got engaged to bemarried and is moving to a new
(02:18):
city to start a whole new lifethere.
No doubt we'll hear or see heragain, but this season with the
Christian Chronicle ends for hernow.
The day she leaves, calvinCockrell will take over managing
editor duties.
So at this changing of theguard, we're bringing in the
Christian Chronicle's twoyoungest editors to talk about
the present and future of whatwe here call Real News that
Honors God.
(02:38):
I'll point out that my age isalmost their two ages put
together, so you know whatthey've got is going to be fresh
almost their two ages puttogether.
So you know what they've got isgoing to be fresh.
Audrey, calvin, thanks forbeing here today.
Audrey, congratulations ongetting married sometime soon,
though you don't know when andfor moving on to big things.
And Calvin, congratulations toyou for getting promoted to
managing editor and moving intobig new things of your own.
(03:01):
Thank you for making time to beon our show today.
Audrey Jackson (03:05):
Thanks for having us.
I can't believe you didn't makea joke about me moving on to
greener pastures, since I'mheaded to Kentucky.
BT Irwin (03:13):
I'll leave that joke to you, thank you.
Calvin Cockrell (03:16):
Yeah, thanks.
Thanks for having me on.
BT Irwin (03:18):
All right.
So first of all, we got tostart with you, audrey, because
this is your next to last daywhen we're recording this.
I think you were fresh out ofcollege when you took the job
with the Christian Chronicle.
When you started here, what didyou imagine it would be like
covering the Church of ChristBeaton?
I'll back up a second here.
I'm sure when you were lookingfor jobs, when you were thinking
about what you were going to doafter you graduated and I don't
(03:41):
remember this story you mayhave looked at a lot of
different options for journalismwork and maybe some other
things, and then you ended up atthe Christian Chronicle
covering the Church of Christbeat.
What did you imagine it wouldbe like when you started?
And here we are four yearslater.
How did what you actuallycovered compare with what you
imagined at first?
Audrey Jackson (04:00):
You know, when I applied for this job, I thought
reporting on Church of Christwould have a much narrower lens.
I thought it would be fullylimited just to churches and
what churches are doing,ministries and what ministries
are doing.
So one thing I learned veryquickly was the broad scope of
coverage that we have based onwhat affects Church of Christ
(04:23):
members and what thoseChristians are doing.
That's something I tell peopleall the time as a religion
reporter is religion is inalmost every aspect of life when
you think about it.
It's in social circles, it's inpolitics, and so we're also
there.
Church of Christ members arealso there in those spaces doing
(04:46):
things, being impacted andaffected by different things
happening, and so I was shockedby the scope of things I was
able to cover.
You know I went to Uvalde afterthe shooting there.
I've been in Ukraine and Israelreporting on the wars, so I
think that caught me off guard.
I didn't realize how broad ofcoverage we had at the Christian
(05:06):
Chronicle when I startedworking here.
BT Irwin (05:08):
This question could be for both of you, because both
of you are a few years in now tocovering Church of Christ news.
How has covering the Church ofChrist changed your impression
of the Church of Christ?
Calvin Cockrell (05:22):
For me kind of along the same lines of what
audrey was just talking about.
It's shown me how far reachingthe impact of churches of christ
and and church members has been, and it's also shown me how
many opportunities there are, Ithink, to do good in in so many
situations.
There's so many ministries thatI've seen that I never would
(05:44):
have thought of or imagined.
There's so many opportunitiesthere are to do good in so many
situations, through so manyavenues and in so many places.
Discovering Churches of Christnews has also shown me what a
(06:10):
wide spectrum there is amongChurches of Christ.
You know I grew up in Alabama,I still live here, deep South
Bible Belt, and so even amongChurches of Christ there's a
certain culture here that hasbeen my entire perception, or
had been my entire perception ofour fellowship, or had been my
entire perception of ourfellowship, and so reporting and
watching my colleagues reporton churches around the country
and around the globe has beenvery eye-opening.
BT Irwin (06:31):
When you talked about being exposed to ministries that
you didn't even imagine existed, and I'll use the word cultures
, congregational cultures thatare outside of the Alabama Bible
Belt, culture that you've knownyour whole life.
Can you give us a couple ofexamples of stories that you
covered, that opened your eyesto that?
Calvin Cockrell (06:54):
Yeah, I just recently covered this play that
was done by an Atlanta church.
It was a very interesting topic.
It was called the Art ofInfluence and Interview with the
Devil.
It was kind of about how Sataninfluences our everyday lives
(07:15):
and kind of manipulates usthrough everyday interactions
and so something like that, aministry through theater, and I
hadn't really seen anything likethat before In terms of culture
.
You know, I reported on achurch, or two churches actually
(07:39):
, that were merging in Spokane,Washington.
So that was an interestingexperience, you know, being in a
place where, you know, even inthe US, where Christianity is
not so widespread, not so common, and so that's something that
(08:01):
they were kind of strugglingwith and trying to work through
to reach people, which you know,that can be a struggle anywhere
, but especially when there'skind of no basic Christian
foundation for a lot of people.
Audrey Jackson (08:17):
I really just echo most of what Calvin said.
My first thought was I wasreally surprised by what the
full spectrum of Church ofChrist are and can be, because,
very similarly, I grew up innorth central Arkansas, I went
to Harding, so there's kind of atemplate almost of what those
(08:37):
congregations are in that area.
So seeing just across the UShow different congregations
function and how they vary wassomething that caught me off
guard.
BT Irwin (08:49):
Do you have some examples, like Calvin gave?
Audrey Jackson (08:51):
One example is with communion.
I've had everything from grapejuice, which is pretty standard,
to wine in Italy and grape sodawine in Italy and grape soda.
So it just varies on tradition,on what people can get their
(09:11):
hands on where they are in life.
That's just a small example ofsome of the differences I've
seen.
BT Irwin (09:14):
So you mentioned wine in Italy and I believe you had
the grape soda in Africa.
Is that right?
Audrey Jackson (09:22):
Somewhere in Africa.
I can't remember the exactcountry.
BT Irwin (09:25):
You've been all over that continent, so you have done
a lot of traveling as areporter for the Christian
Chronicle and it's, is it 18countries, not including the
United States 18, not includingyeah.
I believe at this point thereare more members of the Church
of Christ living outside theUnited States than in the United
(09:46):
States and that balance isprobably going to continue to
tip more in favor of outside theUnited States.
What about?
Our fellowship in other partsof the world differs the most
from what we experience here inthe US.
Calvin, just a moment ago,talked about hey, I've been in
Alabama my whole life.
(10:06):
This is what I know and youtalked about growing up in
Arkansas and going to HardingUniversity and that's kind of
what you knew.
You used the word template.
So as you traveled overseas andyou encountered a lot of
congregations and other culturesand contexts, what did you
notice about them that reallydiffers from our culture here in
(10:27):
our congregations?
Audrey Jackson (10:28):
In some ways they're very similar, I would
say broadly.
One of the things I've seenoutside of the US is there is
more of a spirit of cooperation,oftentimes interconnectivity.
I think there's a tendency inthe US where there are so many
congregations, especially in theBible Belt, where people can
(10:48):
kind of pick and choose who theyassociate with based on if they
agree with their principles,you know, churches of Christ.
There's a reaching across thetable and shaking hands and
(11:12):
bringing into fellowshiptogether.
Oh, that was not a completesentence.
There's a habit to reach acrossthe table and make friendships
and alliances and havefellowship with people that if
you're in an area where there'sa high density of churches of
Christ, you might not do thatnormally but you're more
(11:34):
isolated.
I see that ministries andcongregations tend to reach out
more into their communities andto other fellow believers and
make those connections and paths.
BT Irwin (11:49):
Wow, wow, that's a good observation.
I bet a lot of people wholisten to this have never even
thought of that before, and Ihaven't really thought about it
until right now.
So, as you visited thesecongregations and other parts of
the world, what surprised youthe most?
Audrey Jackson (12:02):
I think one of the first times I went to South
Africa that was my first timebeing on that continent I was
shocked at the level of dressthat some people have for Sunday
, because I'm pretty casual whenit comes to going to church and
(12:22):
I would certainly expect inareas of the world that are
developing nations it might besimilar to that and it's not.
They dress to the nines, theypull out the silk and the satin
and you're walking in red, dusty, dirt roads to church and they
are in a white silk gown, whichI would have never expected
(12:46):
because I would never wear whitein those situations.
I think that was something thatimpressed me kind of the level
of reverence that certaincongregations in certain places
of the world bring to worshipand ministry.
BT Irwin (12:58):
I literally don't wear a white button-down shirt to
church anymore because I don'twant to spill coffee on it.
So that's you know we do have weAmericans?
I think we I've studied this inmissions classes that I took in
grad school we, we tend to havea little of bit of a default
setting.
I think that we believe we mayknow best and so we tend to
(13:22):
imagine ourselves, I think, asrole models and teachers for the
world.
But in your experience amongthose Christians that you
visited in all those othercountries, what have you heard
or seen from them that those ofus who are in the United States
could benefit a great deal if wewould learn it from them?
I mean, what could Christiansin other countries teach us here
in the United States?
Audrey Jackson (13:43):
I think this is done within Churches of Christ
in the US as well, but I see itmore often outside the US is the
laying of a groundwork for apath to invitation that doesn't
necessarily involvestraightforward evangelism Okay,
involve straightforwardevangelism.
Calvin Cockrell (14:04):
Okay.
Audrey Jackson (14:05):
So I think about Turkey, in which they were
providing temporary housing,relief and aid to different
people who'd been affected bythe earthquakes, but they
weren't preaching while theywere doing that, they weren't
going forth and saying oh well,you need to, you know, attend
church to be able to live inthis container home.
There were no specificationsset on the person who's
(14:29):
experiencing a tragedy that theyneed to fulfill in order to
receive something.
And I see I've seen that allaround the world as people going
forth, you know, with medicalmissions and things like that,
and just saying you know, thisis a seed, this is just going to
be here are Christians comingand doing something, requiring
nothing of us, which begs thequestion why and I see that
(14:53):
approach much more outside ofthe US than inside of the US,
though I do see it here as well-From your observation.
BT Irwin (15:00):
Americans and I have this on my brain because I just
read oh, what's the name of thebook?
The Relentless Elimination ofHurry, or whatever, by John Mark
Comer.
I don't know if you've heard ofthe book, but Americans, I
think, tend to be in a hurry andwe're very goal oriented.
So we have a goal in mind andwe hurry toward that goal and we
(15:21):
work very, very hard towardthat goal.
You think that, as you'veobserved in other places, where
Christians say, hey, we're doingthis for we're loving our
neighbors, without anyexpectation of anything in
return, without condition, we'replanting a seed right Seeds
take time to grow.
Is there a, would you say, maybeone of the reasons there's such
a difference?
There is because Americans tendto be in a hurry to get
(15:43):
somewhere, and maybe some of theother cultures where you
visited, they may move at aslower pace.
It could be because they'reagrarian, like Comer makes the
point in his book, that farmersknow how to wait.
You plant a seed, you can'tmake it grow.
It takes time.
But you've visited thesecountries I haven't.
Do you notice a slower pace oflife, more of just being in
(16:04):
touch with the moment andwaiting for things, versus our
kind of all-business, go, go, goAmerican mindset.
Audrey Jackson (16:11):
I've definitely seen a slower pace in other
countries.
I would say I think there isalso a baseline in the US that
allows for more rapid approaches, because in the US, I would say
, most people have a baselinefor Christianity.
They have a baseline for theBible, for Jesus.
(16:32):
Not everyone, but most peoplein the US have some type of
baseline, especially if you'rein the South.
Almost everyone's been to avacation Bible school,
everyone's gone to church atleast once on Wednesday night.
So I think there is less of aframework, less of a foundation
that has to be laid in certaincases, whereas when you're
(16:54):
working in another part of theworld, where there's no
foundation and, a lot of times,entirely different religious
belief systems, it takes a lotlonger to lay those foundations
and those frameworks and bringabout understanding, and so I
think that naturally lends to aslower approach.
BT Irwin (17:09):
Let's imagine that you set out to start from scratch a
news organization for Church ofChrist folks your age and
younger.
How would you do it?
What would it be, and how wouldthings like content and
delivery be different from whatthe senior generations have
experienced in their lifetimes?
Audrey Jackson (17:29):
Well, I hate to say it because I love a print
copy, but it would probably besolely digital.
I think about how I consumenews and while I love print
copies, I've got the New YorkTimes subscription, so that's
digital.
I read the Associated Pressonline.
I read different sources online.
I have apps on my phone.
I see news clips on InstagramReels not TikTok, because my age
(17:54):
is just above the cutoff forwanting to be on TikTok and
receiving my news that way.
BT Irwin (17:59):
There's a cutoff.
Audrey Jackson (18:00):
There's a cutoff .
It's about I wasn't aware 24,23, I would say so our interns
are 2021.
They're on TikTok, I'm not at26.
But yeah, probably short formvideos densely packed with
information, probably in a morelaid back or casual storytelling
(18:23):
manner and digitally.
Calvin Cockrell (18:25):
I mean, I'm older than you, audrey, and I'm
on TikTok, that's true, ActuallyCalvin's a big TikTok
influencer.
At least as a person.
But yeah, I mean for me I justturned 30, kind of on the
borderline millennial Gen Z.
But typically when I'mconsuming news that doesn't
(18:48):
involve my job, it's comingthrough social media Facebook,
tiktok, instagram or emailnewsletters.
I like to that.
That saves me from having tolike go specifically on a
website and look througheverything kind of a digest.
The thing about the social mediastuff is you pretty much have
to rely on people beinginterested enough to engage with
(19:11):
it and share it so that otherpeople see it.
And you know, I think you knowwhat do younger generations care
about?
And I think what do youngergenerations care about?
(19:39):
I think a lot of it isself-centered, and I don't mean
that necessarily in a negativeway, but just observationally
that younger people are mostlyinterested in things that
directly involve them or peoplethey know.
And you know that's true of allpeople to a degree, but I think
especially younger people and Idon't mean that they don't care
about others either, but Ithink they want to have some
skin in the game and they wantto be included in the
conversation and the process,and if they can't be, if they
can't get that, then they're notreally interested.
So I think that's, that'sreally important.
BT Irwin (19:59):
You've had some like monster Christian Chronicle,
tiktok posts or I don't knowwhat you call them Like.
What's the biggest one you'vehad, calvin?
Wasn't it like 17 million?
It was something crazy.
Calvin Cockrell (20:12):
It wasn't 17.
I think it was three or 4million views.
Yeah, but that was one of theones that didn't have my face in
it, so maybe that sayssomething.
BT Irwin (20:25):
I mean just to put it in perspective, the Christian
Chronicle newspaper that getsmailed out every month all over
the world has I still think it'saround 130,000 recipients every
month.
So and that's good, that's bignumbers.
We can sell some ads there.
But Calvin, that TikTok.
(20:45):
We're talking about millions ofviewers, so that reach goes
multiple times further than ournewspaper, and that's why I
always call the ChristianChronicle a media family when I
talk about it.
Now it's not just the newspaperanymore, it's all the media.
So I have one more journalismquestion for y'all and then
(21:05):
we'll wrap this up.
So I grew up hearing a lotabout media bias, and I think we
even hear about it at theChristian Chronicle, because,
you know, church of Christ,folks are fairly opinionated and
if they don't like a particularstory or that, we reported a
story in the first place, we doonce in a while hear from people
who might say we have some formof media bias and we're human
(21:30):
beings, we're not robots, we'renot AI.
So each of the human beingsthat works with the Christian
Chronicle forms opinions andfeelings about the subjects that
they cover, and so it would bea lie to say we don't form
biases.
We don't form biases, sometimesover the subjects we cover.
(21:50):
But, that being said, whyshould people of any persuasion
trust that we report accuratelyand fairly?
How do you, as professionaljournalists, manage your own
feelings and opinions aboutsubjects in a way that you can
still report, so that people cantrust that what you're giving
them is going to be accurate andfair?
Audrey Jackson (22:12):
First of all, in terms of our reporting being
fair and accurate, it's not justone person.
I don't sit at my desk, writean article, format, that for the
website, and then publish it.
There is an editing process andit goes through the hands of
copy editors, it goes throughthe hands of Bobby Ross Jr, our
editor-in-chief, and so if thereis bias, inherent bias or overt
(22:35):
bias, that's going to getcaught and cut by staff.
But on top of that, I thinkpersonally, professionally, as
long as you're very aware ofyour biases, everyone has them,
but as long as you are aware ofthem, they are less likely to
affect your reporting.
I think it's when you eitherdeny having them or you are
(22:58):
unaware of them because they'reso subconscious.
That's when it starts to creepin, because you can't really
manage that if you are unawareof it.
Calvin Cockrell (23:05):
There's sort of a uniqueness to what we do
compared to other newsorganizations in that the
majority of the time we're notreally out to report on
hard-hitting, controversialissues.
We're trying to share, for themost part, the good and
worthwhile things thatChristians are doing in the
(23:25):
kingdom, and so, you know, biasdoesn't necessarily play into
that a lot of times, you know,but there are times we have to
get into the weeds on certainissues, divisive issues that
exist within our fellowship orthat impact our fellowship, and
we just have to do our best tohave honest conversations and
(23:47):
get to the truth and get thereasonable voices out there.
And we're not always going todo it perfectly.
But I hope that our readerswill trust that as Christians we
are, we're all Christians hereand we're that we're being
honest in our efforts.
And you know, like Audrey said,we serve as a check on each
other.
It may surprise some people,but we as a team do not agree on
(24:11):
everything all the time.
We have different perspectivesand if we've written something
in a way that feels, you know,too one-sided or something like
that, then we help each other.
Real things back in.
BT Irwin (24:24):
I can attest to that.
So let's bring it back to thebig picture here at the end.
The two of you have beencovering the Church of Christ
around the world for a few yearsnow, so you have more
experience and exposure thanmost folks do.
What would you say is the stateof our fellowship and its
people now?
Audrey Jackson (24:41):
I would say there is a general consensus of
concern, especially in the US,about declining numbers and not
having as much engagement withyounger generations.
I mean, you asked a questionthat kind of touched on that is
how would we engage with peopleour age?
Because if you go to mostchurches of Christ in the US,
(25:02):
there is kind of a drop off,especially in rural
congregations.
There's kind of a cut off aroundmaybe like 50, or younger
people are not as present in thechurch, and so I'd say that is
something that I generally see,at least among US congregations,
but that of course leaks intointernational churches as well,
because a lot of churches inother countries are supported by
(25:24):
churches in the US and so, aschurches in the US are affected
by decline, that is also feltglobally, and so I'd say that is
kind of a general feeling thatI've seen across churches around
the world, churches around theworld, but there's also, I find,
(25:45):
pockets of hope andencouragement where people are
finding unconventional ways todo ministry and finding that
that has a huge impact withcommunity and engagement,
because when I think people tendto be very set in a mindset of
this is evangelism and this ishow evangelism works, and so
when you break that mold,especially for people who aren't
(26:06):
in the church, that feels morewelcoming a lot of times.
Calvin Cockrell (26:10):
I believe.
I think it's a tough questionto answer and I think the answer
is different in you know, notonly different places, but right
down the street you know, thereare churches, of course, that
are struggling and declining,but there are churches that are
growing and doing something Inboth cases, churches that are
(26:30):
doing a lot of good, and I justthink that we just have to keep
pressing on, as we always havedone, and working for the cause
of Christ.
BT Irwin (26:39):
Audrey, we're recording this on your next to
last day, so let's end thisconversation with you.
You've covered some of the mostdramatic stories, I think, to
ever appear in the ChristianChronicle, and that's not just
over the four years you've beenhere.
I think that's since we startedpublishing in 1943.
(26:59):
So what story or stories madethe deepest impression on you?
Audrey Jackson (27:05):
I think a lot about Turkey and some of my
foreign reporting in spaces inthe world that are not
necessarily highly traffickedwith Christianity.
It's not a place wheremissionaries tend to go, it's
not a place where there's a hugechurch presence.
(27:27):
I tend to think of those spacesmore as having impact on me
personally, because I think thehope that I've found there is
very interesting, because Ithink if I was in a situation
where I felt isolated, I wouldnot have much hope or excitement
.
But then you go there and thereis work that is happening and
(27:47):
people connecting withcommunities and other people and
setting aside cultural andreligious differences to get to
know who those people are, thatcommunity is, and work with them
, rather than like offering thema product, but really
connecting with a community andworking in tandem with them to
(28:09):
share what they believe.
BT Irwin (28:12):
Yeah, those were really good stories.
They were very impactfulstories that you wrote.
You went to Turkey twice, right?
Audrey Jackson (28:20):
I wrote about Turkey twice.
I went to Turkey once.
BT Irwin (28:23):
That's right.
So you reported after theearthquake and then you went a
year later, yes, and reportedfrom Turkey a year later.
Those were impactful stories.
We'll link those in the shownotes so everybody can go back
and read those again.
Well, audrey, it's been a lot offun working with you and you've
(28:44):
done just a crackerjack job asa reporter, as a photographer,
as a managing editor.
As a managing editor, you workso hard, your standards are so
high.
You, like I said, you'vetraveled all over the world and
you've done some of the mostdifficult reporting for us over
the last four years that you'vebeen here.
So you've been a blessing notonly to the staff at the
(29:04):
Christian Chronicle but more soto all of our listeners and
readers and watchers around theworld, and then all the people
that they touch that will nevereven know that you are the
source of the story thatinspired or informed someone to
do what they do.
So you will be missed very muchby all of us in the Christian
(29:25):
Chronicle family all around theworld, and we're thankful to you
for what you've done so wellfor the last four years, and our
prayers are with you as you getmarried at some point.
So your fiance has a year ofreally, really intense,
difficult residency and thenwhen that's over because he's
(29:48):
going to be a doctor when that'sover, then you'll take a breath
and set your wedding date andplan and and and off we go,
right.
Audrey Jackson (29:58):
Exactly yeah, Intern year for ER you know,
emergency medicine residentsthat's really difficult for them
.
Just an easy example is in themonth of August.
He gets five days off total andnone of those are consecutive,
and he works a bunch of 24 hourshifts.
So, yeah, sitting down gettingtogether to plan a wedding would
(30:21):
not be very easy, and Idefinitely want him to be
involved in the wedding planning.
So we're just going to hold offfor a bit.
BT Irwin (30:28):
For sure and if there's, is there anything at
all?
Any hint, like you may not know, but what?
I always like to ask thisquestion of most people, because
I know how I think I'm alwaysthinking ahead to what project
would I like to do?
What thing would I really beinterested in doing?
So you're going to take a break.
I think you're leaving theChronicle for the time being.
(30:50):
Are you thinking aboutjournalism?
What?
What ideas do you have in mindfor what's the next big project
that Audrey's going to take onbesides getting married?
Audrey Jackson (31:00):
I would love to connect more with photography
Calvin talked about when hestudied at his university.
It was more visually focused,and the same is true about me.
I had a focus inphotojournalism, and while I've
done a lot of that for theChronicle on the Stories I Also
Report, I've been functioning asa multimedia journalist,
writing and photographing bothsides of the story.
(31:21):
I would love to just lean intothe visual side of it, because I
think I'm a good writer.
I'm a good photographer, butI'm great at neither, because
I'm splitting my time betweenboth, and so I would really like
to put more time and effortinto just the photography aspect
of that and maybe be a greatphotographer one day.
BT Irwin (31:42):
Yeah, all right.
So that means we can all lookforward to seeing your
photography out there sooner orlater.
Audrey Jackson (31:50):
Hopefully.
BT Irwin (31:52):
Calvin, you got any big plans, so you're going to
become managing editor.
You said it's not going to beexactly the same as the role and
responsibilities that Audreyhad as managing editor.
What are you really excited?
Calvin Cockrell (32:04):
about.
A lot of the things are thesame that I've been doing.
Some of it is a little moregrunt work, but I am excited,
hopefully, about getting to do abit more on the ground
reporting and going in person totravel to different places.
BT Irwin (32:24):
That'll be awesome.
You've done a great job.
Everything you've touched herehas been really good.
So I know, uh, I know you'renot the same as Audrey.
What is that?
You don't replace Audrey, yousucceed her and, uh, so we
expect.
We expect great things, for weexpect great things from from
both of you.
So thanks for taking time to uhshare with our audience today.
(32:45):
It was, it was a pleasure to toget to hang out with a couple
of colleagues and listen toy'all talk about your work and,
audrey, we wish you well.
Audrey Jackson (32:54):
Thanks for having me this one last time.
Calvin Cockrell (32:57):
Thanks for having me Hopefully more times.
BT Irwin (33:02):
Count on it.
Count on it.
We hope that something youheard in this episode encouraged
, enlightened or enriched you insome way.
If it did, thanks be to God andplease pay it forward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Recommend and review itwherever you listen to your
favorite podcasts.
Your subscription,recommendation and review help
us reach more people.
(33:23):
Please send your comments,ideas and suggestions to
podcastchristianchronicleorg.
Don't forget our ministry toinform and inspire Christians
and congregations around theworld is a nonprofit ministry
that relies on you.
So if you like the show and youwant to keep it going and make
it even better, please make atax-deductible gift to the
Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg.
(33:46):
The Christian Chronicle podcastis a production of the Christian
Chronicle Incorporated,informing and inspiring Church
of Christ congregations, membersand ministries around the world
since 1943.
The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Calvin
Cockrell, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and executive director
and CEO Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis written, directed, hosted
(34:09):
and edited by BT Irwin.
It is produced by JamesFlanagan at Podcast your Voice
Studios in the Motor City,detroit, michigan, usa.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
We're bringing you the storiesshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
I'm BT Irwin.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
Just to give you an idea of theChristian Chronicle's age, here
are some things that happened in1943, the year that the first
(00:26):
issue of the Christian Chroniclerolled off the press in Texas.
World War II raged across theplanet, franklin Roosevelt was
president of the United Statesand that year he became the
first US president to travel byairplane on presidential
business, crossing the Atlanticto meet with British Prime
Minister Winston Churchill inCasablanca.
Cs Lewis published his classicthe Screwtape Letters, and the
(00:51):
pages of the Christian Chroniclereported on how Church of
Christ congregations wereevangelizing through an
innovative use of a fast-growingtechnology radio.
So yeah, the ChristianChronicle has been around for a
long time and the world haschanged a lot since that very
first issue.
And that's why it was big newswhen the Christian Chronicle
hired 20-something-year-oldrecent college graduate Audrey
(01:13):
Jackson.
On her first day she loweredthe average age of the Christian
Chronicle news team by oh quitea lot.
About a year later, theChristian Chronicle brought on
another 20-something, calvinCockrell, to fill a whole new
role converting or creatingChristian Chronicle content for
social media, most of all socialmedia popular with the youngest
generations.
Age is just a number.
(01:35):
Age is just a number.
What matters for a ministrylike the Christian Chronicle is
that it be accessible, relevantand valuable to Christians of
all ages and from as manybackgrounds as there are places
in the world where the Church ofChrist puts down roots.
To that end, audrey and Calvinhave been big contributors.
For example, over the last fouryears Audrey has reported some
(01:56):
of the deepest diving, mostrevealing, thoughtful stories
we've ever run, from 18countries where she traveled,
including the United States, andas managing editor she played a
key role in the branding andredesign of the Christian
Chronicle last year.
But the day after we record thisepisode will be Audrey's last
day with us.
She recently got engaged to bemarried and is moving to a new
(02:18):
city to start a whole new lifethere.
No doubt we'll hear or see heragain, but this season with the
Christian Chronicle ends for hernow.
The day she leaves, calvinCockrell will take over managing
editor duties.
So at this changing of theguard, we're bringing in the
Christian Chronicle's twoyoungest editors to talk about
the present and future of whatwe here call Real News that
Honors God.
(02:38):
I'll point out that my age isalmost their two ages put
together, so you know whatthey've got is going to be fresh
almost their two ages puttogether.
So you know what they've got isgoing to be fresh.
Audrey, calvin, thanks forbeing here today.
Audrey, congratulations ongetting married sometime soon,
though you don't know when andfor moving on to big things.
And Calvin, congratulations toyou for getting promoted to
managing editor and moving intobig new things of your own.
(03:01):
Thank you for making time to beon our show today.
Audrey Jackson (03:05):
Thanks for having us.
I can't believe you didn't makea joke about me moving on to
greener pastures, since I'mheaded to Kentucky.
BT Irwin (03:13):
I'll leave that joke to you, thank you.
Calvin Cockrell (03:16):
Yeah, thanks.
Thanks for having me on.
BT Irwin (03:18):
All right.
So first of all, we got tostart with you, audrey, because
this is your next to last daywhen we're recording this.
I think you were fresh out ofcollege when you took the job
with the Christian Chronicle.
When you started here, what didyou imagine it would be like
covering the Church of ChristBeaton?
I'll back up a second here.
I'm sure when you were lookingfor jobs, when you were thinking
about what you were going to doafter you graduated and I don't
(03:41):
remember this story you mayhave looked at a lot of
different options for journalismwork and maybe some other
things, and then you ended up atthe Christian Chronicle
covering the Church of Christbeat.
What did you imagine it wouldbe like when you started?
And here we are four yearslater.
How did what you actuallycovered compare with what you
imagined at first?
Audrey Jackson (04:00):
You know, when I applied for this job, I thought
reporting on Church of Christwould have a much narrower lens.
I thought it would be fullylimited just to churches and
what churches are doing,ministries and what ministries
are doing.
So one thing I learned veryquickly was the broad scope of
coverage that we have based onwhat affects Church of Christ
(04:23):
members and what thoseChristians are doing.
That's something I tell peopleall the time as a religion
reporter is religion is inalmost every aspect of life when
you think about it.
It's in social circles, it's inpolitics, and so we're also
there.
Church of Christ members arealso there in those spaces doing
(04:46):
things, being impacted andaffected by different things
happening, and so I was shockedby the scope of things I was
able to cover.
You know I went to Uvalde afterthe shooting there.
I've been in Ukraine and Israelreporting on the wars, so I
think that caught me off guard.
I didn't realize how broad ofcoverage we had at the Christian
(05:06):
Chronicle when I startedworking here.
BT Irwin (05:08):
This question could be for both of you, because both
of you are a few years in now tocovering Church of Christ news.
How has covering the Church ofChrist changed your impression
of the Church of Christ?
Calvin Cockrell (05:22):
For me kind of along the same lines of what
audrey was just talking about.
It's shown me how far reachingthe impact of churches of christ
and and church members has been, and it's also shown me how
many opportunities there are, Ithink, to do good in in so many
situations.
There's so many ministries thatI've seen that I never would
(05:44):
have thought of or imagined.
There's so many opportunitiesthere are to do good in so many
situations, through so manyavenues and in so many places.
Discovering Churches of Christnews has also shown me what a
(06:10):
wide spectrum there is amongChurches of Christ.
You know I grew up in Alabama,I still live here, deep South
Bible Belt, and so even amongChurches of Christ there's a
certain culture here that hasbeen my entire perception, or
had been my entire perception ofour fellowship, or had been my
entire perception of ourfellowship, and so reporting and
watching my colleagues reporton churches around the country
and around the globe has beenvery eye-opening.
BT Irwin (06:31):
When you talked about being exposed to ministries that
you didn't even imagine existed, and I'll use the word cultures
, congregational cultures thatare outside of the Alabama Bible
Belt, culture that you've knownyour whole life.
Can you give us a couple ofexamples of stories that you
covered, that opened your eyesto that?
Calvin Cockrell (06:54):
Yeah, I just recently covered this play that
was done by an Atlanta church.
It was a very interesting topic.
It was called the Art ofInfluence and Interview with the
Devil.
It was kind of about how Sataninfluences our everyday lives
(07:15):
and kind of manipulates usthrough everyday interactions
and so something like that, aministry through theater, and I
hadn't really seen anything likethat before In terms of culture
.
You know, I reported on achurch, or two churches actually
(07:39):
, that were merging in Spokane,Washington.
So that was an interestingexperience, you know, being in a
place where, you know, even inthe US, where Christianity is
not so widespread, not so common, and so that's something that
(08:01):
they were kind of strugglingwith and trying to work through
to reach people, which you know,that can be a struggle anywhere
, but especially when there'skind of no basic Christian
foundation for a lot of people.
Audrey Jackson (08:17):
I really just echo most of what Calvin said.
My first thought was I wasreally surprised by what the
full spectrum of Church ofChrist are and can be, because,
very similarly, I grew up innorth central Arkansas, I went
to Harding, so there's kind of atemplate almost of what those
(08:37):
congregations are in that area.
So seeing just across the UShow different congregations
function and how they vary wassomething that caught me off
guard.
BT Irwin (08:49):
Do you have some examples, like Calvin gave?
Audrey Jackson (08:51):
One example is with communion.
I've had everything from grapejuice, which is pretty standard,
to wine in Italy and grape sodawine in Italy and grape soda.
So it just varies on tradition,on what people can get their
(09:11):
hands on where they are in life.
That's just a small example ofsome of the differences I've
seen.
BT Irwin (09:14):
So you mentioned wine in Italy and I believe you had
the grape soda in Africa.
Is that right?
Audrey Jackson (09:22):
Somewhere in Africa.
I can't remember the exactcountry.
BT Irwin (09:25):
You've been all over that continent, so you have done
a lot of traveling as areporter for the Christian
Chronicle and it's, is it 18countries, not including the
United States 18, not includingyeah.
I believe at this point thereare more members of the Church
of Christ living outside theUnited States than in the United
(09:46):
States and that balance isprobably going to continue to
tip more in favor of outside theUnited States.
What about?
Our fellowship in other partsof the world differs the most
from what we experience here inthe US.
Calvin, just a moment ago,talked about hey, I've been in
Alabama my whole life.
(10:06):
This is what I know and youtalked about growing up in
Arkansas and going to HardingUniversity and that's kind of
what you knew.
You used the word template.
So as you traveled overseas andyou encountered a lot of
congregations and other culturesand contexts, what did you
notice about them that reallydiffers from our culture here in
(10:27):
our congregations?
Audrey Jackson (10:28):
In some ways they're very similar, I would
say broadly.
One of the things I've seenoutside of the US is there is
more of a spirit of cooperation,oftentimes interconnectivity.
I think there's a tendency inthe US where there are so many
congregations, especially in theBible Belt, where people can
(10:48):
kind of pick and choose who theyassociate with based on if they
agree with their principles,you know, churches of Christ.
There's a reaching across thetable and shaking hands and
(11:12):
bringing into fellowshiptogether.
Oh, that was not a completesentence.
There's a habit to reach acrossthe table and make friendships
and alliances and havefellowship with people that if
you're in an area where there'sa high density of churches of
Christ, you might not do thatnormally but you're more
(11:34):
isolated.
I see that ministries andcongregations tend to reach out
more into their communities andto other fellow believers and
make those connections and paths.
BT Irwin (11:49):
Wow, wow, that's a good observation.
I bet a lot of people wholisten to this have never even
thought of that before, and Ihaven't really thought about it
until right now.
So, as you visited thesecongregations and other parts of
the world, what surprised youthe most?
Audrey Jackson (12:02):
I think one of the first times I went to South
Africa that was my first timebeing on that continent I was
shocked at the level of dressthat some people have for Sunday
, because I'm pretty casual whenit comes to going to church and
(12:22):
I would certainly expect inareas of the world that are
developing nations it might besimilar to that and it's not.
They dress to the nines, theypull out the silk and the satin
and you're walking in red, dusty, dirt roads to church and they
are in a white silk gown, whichI would have never expected
(12:46):
because I would never wear whitein those situations.
I think that was something thatimpressed me kind of the level
of reverence that certaincongregations in certain places
of the world bring to worshipand ministry.
BT Irwin (12:58):
I literally don't wear a white button-down shirt to
church anymore because I don'twant to spill coffee on it.
So that's you know we do have weAmericans?
I think we I've studied this inmissions classes that I took in
grad school we, we tend to havea little of bit of a default
setting.
I think that we believe we mayknow best and so we tend to
(13:22):
imagine ourselves, I think, asrole models and teachers for the
world.
But in your experience amongthose Christians that you
visited in all those othercountries, what have you heard
or seen from them that those ofus who are in the United States
could benefit a great deal if wewould learn it from them?
I mean, what could Christiansin other countries teach us here
in the United States?
Audrey Jackson (13:43):
I think this is done within Churches of Christ
in the US as well, but I see itmore often outside the US is the
laying of a groundwork for apath to invitation that doesn't
necessarily involvestraightforward evangelism Okay,
involve straightforwardevangelism.
Calvin Cockrell (14:04):
Okay.
Audrey Jackson (14:05):
So I think about Turkey, in which they were
providing temporary housing,relief and aid to different
people who'd been affected bythe earthquakes, but they
weren't preaching while theywere doing that, they weren't
going forth and saying oh well,you need to, you know, attend
church to be able to live inthis container home.
There were no specificationsset on the person who's
(14:29):
experiencing a tragedy that theyneed to fulfill in order to
receive something.
And I see I've seen that allaround the world as people going
forth, you know, with medicalmissions and things like that,
and just saying you know, thisis a seed, this is just going to
be here are Christians comingand doing something, requiring
nothing of us, which begs thequestion why and I see that
(14:53):
approach much more outside ofthe US than inside of the US,
though I do see it here as well-From your observation.
BT Irwin (15:00):
Americans and I have this on my brain because I just
read oh, what's the name of thebook?
The Relentless Elimination ofHurry, or whatever, by John Mark
Comer.
I don't know if you've heard ofthe book, but Americans, I
think, tend to be in a hurry andwe're very goal oriented.
So we have a goal in mind andwe hurry toward that goal and we
(15:21):
work very, very hard towardthat goal.
You think that, as you'veobserved in other places, where
Christians say, hey, we're doingthis for we're loving our
neighbors, without anyexpectation of anything in
return, without condition, we'replanting a seed right Seeds
take time to grow.
Is there a, would you say, maybeone of the reasons there's such
a difference?
There is because Americans tendto be in a hurry to get
(15:43):
somewhere, and maybe some of theother cultures where you
visited, they may move at aslower pace.
It could be because they'reagrarian, like Comer makes the
point in his book, that farmersknow how to wait.
You plant a seed, you can'tmake it grow.
It takes time.
But you've visited thesecountries I haven't.
Do you notice a slower pace oflife, more of just being in
(16:04):
touch with the moment andwaiting for things, versus our
kind of all-business, go, go, goAmerican mindset.
Audrey Jackson (16:11):
I've definitely seen a slower pace in other
countries.
I would say I think there isalso a baseline in the US that
allows for more rapid approaches, because in the US, I would say
, most people have a baselinefor Christianity.
They have a baseline for theBible, for Jesus.
(16:32):
Not everyone, but most peoplein the US have some type of
baseline, especially if you'rein the South.
Almost everyone's been to avacation Bible school,
everyone's gone to church atleast once on Wednesday night.
So I think there is less of aframework, less of a foundation
that has to be laid in certaincases, whereas when you're
(16:54):
working in another part of theworld, where there's no
foundation and, a lot of times,entirely different religious
belief systems, it takes a lotlonger to lay those foundations
and those frameworks and bringabout understanding, and so I
think that naturally lends to aslower approach.
BT Irwin (17:09):
Let's imagine that you set out to start from scratch a
news organization for Church ofChrist folks your age and
younger.
How would you do it?
What would it be, and how wouldthings like content and
delivery be different from whatthe senior generations have
experienced in their lifetimes?
Audrey Jackson (17:29):
Well, I hate to say it because I love a print
copy, but it would probably besolely digital.
I think about how I consumenews and while I love print
copies, I've got the New YorkTimes subscription, so that's
digital.
I read the Associated Pressonline.
I read different sources online.
I have apps on my phone.
I see news clips on InstagramReels not TikTok, because my age
(17:54):
is just above the cutoff forwanting to be on TikTok and
receiving my news that way.
BT Irwin (17:59):
There's a cutoff.
Audrey Jackson (18:00):
There's a cutoff .
It's about I wasn't aware 24,23, I would say so our interns
are 2021.
They're on TikTok, I'm not at26.
But yeah, probably short formvideos densely packed with
information, probably in a morelaid back or casual storytelling
(18:23):
manner and digitally.
Calvin Cockrell (18:25):
I mean, I'm older than you, audrey, and I'm
on TikTok, that's true, ActuallyCalvin's a big TikTok
influencer.
At least as a person.
But yeah, I mean for me I justturned 30, kind of on the
borderline millennial Gen Z.
But typically when I'mconsuming news that doesn't
(18:48):
involve my job, it's comingthrough social media Facebook,
tiktok, instagram or emailnewsletters.
I like to that.
That saves me from having tolike go specifically on a
website and look througheverything kind of a digest.
The thing about the social mediastuff is you pretty much have
to rely on people beinginterested enough to engage with
(19:11):
it and share it so that otherpeople see it.
And you know, I think you knowwhat do younger generations care
about?
And I think what do youngergenerations care about?
(19:39):
I think a lot of it isself-centered, and I don't mean
that necessarily in a negativeway, but just observationally
that younger people are mostlyinterested in things that
directly involve them or peoplethey know.
And you know that's true of allpeople to a degree, but I think
especially younger people and Idon't mean that they don't care
about others either, but Ithink they want to have some
skin in the game and they wantto be included in the
conversation and the process,and if they can't be, if they
can't get that, then they're notreally interested.
So I think that's, that'sreally important.
BT Irwin (19:59):
You've had some like monster Christian Chronicle,
tiktok posts or I don't knowwhat you call them Like.
What's the biggest one you'vehad, calvin?
Wasn't it like 17 million?
It was something crazy.
Calvin Cockrell (20:12):
It wasn't 17.
I think it was three or 4million views.
Yeah, but that was one of theones that didn't have my face in
it, so maybe that sayssomething.
BT Irwin (20:25):
I mean just to put it in perspective, the Christian
Chronicle newspaper that getsmailed out every month all over
the world has I still think it'saround 130,000 recipients every
month.
So and that's good, that's bignumbers.
We can sell some ads there.
But Calvin, that TikTok.
(20:45):
We're talking about millions ofviewers, so that reach goes
multiple times further than ournewspaper, and that's why I
always call the ChristianChronicle a media family when I
talk about it.
Now it's not just the newspaperanymore, it's all the media.
So I have one more journalismquestion for y'all and then
(21:05):
we'll wrap this up.
So I grew up hearing a lotabout media bias, and I think we
even hear about it at theChristian Chronicle, because,
you know, church of Christ,folks are fairly opinionated and
if they don't like a particularstory or that, we reported a
story in the first place, we doonce in a while hear from people
who might say we have some formof media bias and we're human
(21:30):
beings, we're not robots, we'renot AI.
So each of the human beingsthat works with the Christian
Chronicle forms opinions andfeelings about the subjects that
they cover, and so it would bea lie to say we don't form
biases.
We don't form biases, sometimesover the subjects we cover.
(21:50):
But, that being said, whyshould people of any persuasion
trust that we report accuratelyand fairly?
How do you, as professionaljournalists, manage your own
feelings and opinions aboutsubjects in a way that you can
still report, so that people cantrust that what you're giving
them is going to be accurate andfair?
Audrey Jackson (22:12):
First of all, in terms of our reporting being
fair and accurate, it's not justone person.
I don't sit at my desk, writean article, format, that for the
website, and then publish it.
There is an editing process andit goes through the hands of
copy editors, it goes throughthe hands of Bobby Ross Jr, our
editor-in-chief, and so if thereis bias, inherent bias or overt
(22:35):
bias, that's going to getcaught and cut by staff.
But on top of that, I thinkpersonally, professionally, as
long as you're very aware ofyour biases, everyone has them,
but as long as you are aware ofthem, they are less likely to
affect your reporting.
I think it's when you eitherdeny having them or you are
(22:58):
unaware of them because they'reso subconscious.
That's when it starts to creepin, because you can't really
manage that if you are unawareof it.
Calvin Cockrell (23:05):
There's sort of a uniqueness to what we do
compared to other newsorganizations in that the
majority of the time we're notreally out to report on
hard-hitting, controversialissues.
We're trying to share, for themost part, the good and
worthwhile things thatChristians are doing in the
(23:25):
kingdom, and so, you know, biasdoesn't necessarily play into
that a lot of times, you know,but there are times we have to
get into the weeds on certainissues, divisive issues that
exist within our fellowship orthat impact our fellowship, and
we just have to do our best tohave honest conversations and
(23:47):
get to the truth and get thereasonable voices out there.
And we're not always going todo it perfectly.
But I hope that our readerswill trust that as Christians we
are, we're all Christians hereand we're that we're being
honest in our efforts.
And you know, like Audrey said,we serve as a check on each
other.
It may surprise some people,but we as a team do not agree on
(24:11):
everything all the time.
We have different perspectivesand if we've written something
in a way that feels, you know,too one-sided or something like
that, then we help each other.
Real things back in.
BT Irwin (24:24):
I can attest to that.
So let's bring it back to thebig picture here at the end.
The two of you have beencovering the Church of Christ
around the world for a few yearsnow, so you have more
experience and exposure thanmost folks do.
What would you say is the stateof our fellowship and its
people now?
Audrey Jackson (24:41):
I would say there is a general consensus of
concern, especially in the US,about declining numbers and not
having as much engagement withyounger generations.
I mean, you asked a questionthat kind of touched on that is
how would we engage with peopleour age?
Because if you go to mostchurches of Christ in the US,
(25:02):
there is kind of a drop off,especially in rural
congregations.
There's kind of a cut off aroundmaybe like 50, or younger
people are not as present in thechurch, and so I'd say that is
something that I generally see,at least among US congregations,
but that of course leaks intointernational churches as well,
because a lot of churches inother countries are supported by
(25:24):
churches in the US and so, aschurches in the US are affected
by decline, that is also feltglobally, and so I'd say that is
kind of a general feeling thatI've seen across churches around
the world, churches around theworld, but there's also, I find,
(25:45):
pockets of hope andencouragement where people are
finding unconventional ways todo ministry and finding that
that has a huge impact withcommunity and engagement,
because when I think people tendto be very set in a mindset of
this is evangelism and this ishow evangelism works, and so
when you break that mold,especially for people who aren't
(26:06):
in the church, that feels morewelcoming a lot of times.
Calvin Cockrell (26:10):
I believe.
I think it's a tough questionto answer and I think the answer
is different in you know, notonly different places, but right
down the street you know, thereare churches, of course, that
are struggling and declining,but there are churches that are
growing and doing something Inboth cases, churches that are
(26:30):
doing a lot of good, and I justthink that we just have to keep
pressing on, as we always havedone, and working for the cause
of Christ.
BT Irwin (26:39):
Audrey, we're recording this on your next to
last day, so let's end thisconversation with you.
You've covered some of the mostdramatic stories, I think, to
ever appear in the ChristianChronicle, and that's not just
over the four years you've beenhere.
I think that's since we startedpublishing in 1943.
(26:59):
So what story or stories madethe deepest impression on you?
Audrey Jackson (27:05):
I think a lot about Turkey and some of my
foreign reporting in spaces inthe world that are not
necessarily highly traffickedwith Christianity.
It's not a place wheremissionaries tend to go, it's
not a place where there's a hugechurch presence.
(27:27):
I tend to think of those spacesmore as having impact on me
personally, because I think thehope that I've found there is
very interesting, because Ithink if I was in a situation
where I felt isolated, I wouldnot have much hope or excitement
.
But then you go there and thereis work that is happening and
(27:47):
people connecting withcommunities and other people and
setting aside cultural andreligious differences to get to
know who those people are, thatcommunity is, and work with them
, rather than like offering thema product, but really
connecting with a community andworking in tandem with them to
(28:09):
share what they believe.
BT Irwin (28:12):
Yeah, those were really good stories.
They were very impactfulstories that you wrote.
You went to Turkey twice, right?
Audrey Jackson (28:20):
I wrote about Turkey twice.
I went to Turkey once.
BT Irwin (28:23):
That's right.
So you reported after theearthquake and then you went a
year later, yes, and reportedfrom Turkey a year later.
Those were impactful stories.
We'll link those in the shownotes so everybody can go back
and read those again.
Well, audrey, it's been a lot offun working with you and you've
(28:44):
done just a crackerjack job asa reporter, as a photographer,
as a managing editor.
As a managing editor, you workso hard, your standards are so
high.
You, like I said, you'vetraveled all over the world and
you've done some of the mostdifficult reporting for us over
the last four years that you'vebeen here.
So you've been a blessing notonly to the staff at the
(29:04):
Christian Chronicle but more soto all of our listeners and
readers and watchers around theworld, and then all the people
that they touch that will nevereven know that you are the
source of the story thatinspired or informed someone to
do what they do.
So you will be missed very muchby all of us in the Christian
(29:25):
Chronicle family all around theworld, and we're thankful to you
for what you've done so wellfor the last four years, and our
prayers are with you as you getmarried at some point.
So your fiance has a year ofreally, really intense,
difficult residency and thenwhen that's over because he's
(29:48):
going to be a doctor when that'sover, then you'll take a breath
and set your wedding date andplan and and and off we go,
right.
Audrey Jackson (29:58):
Exactly yeah, Intern year for ER you know,
emergency medicine residentsthat's really difficult for them
.
Just an easy example is in themonth of August.
He gets five days off total andnone of those are consecutive,
and he works a bunch of 24 hourshifts.
So, yeah, sitting down gettingtogether to plan a wedding would
(30:21):
not be very easy, and Idefinitely want him to be
involved in the wedding planning.
So we're just going to hold offfor a bit.
BT Irwin (30:28):
For sure and if there's, is there anything at
all?
Any hint, like you may not know, but what?
I always like to ask thisquestion of most people, because
I know how I think I'm alwaysthinking ahead to what project
would I like to do?
What thing would I really beinterested in doing?
So you're going to take a break.
I think you're leaving theChronicle for the time being.
(30:50):
Are you thinking aboutjournalism?
What?
What ideas do you have in mindfor what's the next big project
that Audrey's going to take onbesides getting married?
Audrey Jackson (31:00):
I would love to connect more with photography
Calvin talked about when hestudied at his university.
It was more visually focused,and the same is true about me.
I had a focus inphotojournalism, and while I've
done a lot of that for theChronicle on the Stories I Also
Report, I've been functioning asa multimedia journalist,
writing and photographing bothsides of the story.
(31:21):
I would love to just lean intothe visual side of it, because I
think I'm a good writer.
I'm a good photographer, butI'm great at neither, because
I'm splitting my time betweenboth, and so I would really like
to put more time and effortinto just the photography aspect
of that and maybe be a greatphotographer one day.
BT Irwin (31:42):
Yeah, all right.
So that means we can all lookforward to seeing your
photography out there sooner orlater.
Audrey Jackson (31:50):
Hopefully.
BT Irwin (31:52):
Calvin, you got any big plans, so you're going to
become managing editor.
You said it's not going to beexactly the same as the role and
responsibilities that Audreyhad as managing editor.
What are you really excited?
Calvin Cockrell (32:04):
about.
A lot of the things are thesame that I've been doing.
Some of it is a little moregrunt work, but I am excited,
hopefully, about getting to do abit more on the ground
reporting and going in person totravel to different places.
BT Irwin (32:24):
That'll be awesome.
You've done a great job.
Everything you've touched herehas been really good.
So I know, uh, I know you'renot the same as Audrey.
What is that?
You don't replace Audrey, yousucceed her and, uh, so we
expect.
We expect great things, for weexpect great things from from
both of you.
So thanks for taking time to uhshare with our audience today.
(32:45):
It was, it was a pleasure to toget to hang out with a couple
of colleagues and listen toy'all talk about your work and,
audrey, we wish you well.
Audrey Jackson (32:54):
Thanks for having me this one last time.
Calvin Cockrell (32:57):
Thanks for having me Hopefully more times.
BT Irwin (33:02):
Count on it.
Count on it.
We hope that something youheard in this episode encouraged
, enlightened or enriched you insome way.
If it did, thanks be to God andplease pay it forward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Recommend and review itwherever you listen to your
favorite podcasts.
Your subscription,recommendation and review help
us reach more people.
(33:23):
Please send your comments,ideas and suggestions to
podcastchristianchronicleorg.
Don't forget our ministry toinform and inspire Christians
and congregations around theworld is a nonprofit ministry
that relies on you.
So if you like the show and youwant to keep it going and make
it even better, please make atax-deductible gift to the
Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg.
(33:46):
The Christian Chronicle podcastis a production of the Christian
Chronicle Incorporated,informing and inspiring Church
of Christ congregations, membersand ministries around the world
since 1943.
The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Calvin
Cockrell, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and executive director
and CEO Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis written, directed, hosted
(34:09):
and edited by BT Irwin.
It is produced by JamesFlanagan at Podcast your Voice
Studios in the Motor City,detroit, michigan, usa.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
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