September 2, 2025 • 47 mins
Church of Christ congregations in the rural areas and small towns of the United States are struggling with closures and membership losses. What act of God and the Church of Christ together could lead to growth and health?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook is co-director of the new Center for Ministry at York University in York, Nebraska. In this episode, Dr. Westbrook unpacks some of the reasons that so many congregations in rural and small town America are struggling. She reveals some of the approaches that may position these congregations for new growth. That includes a new focus and stronger dependence on girls and women, who are often the heart and soul of church growth and yet are sometimes overlooked.
Link to Episode 119: Unleashing the superpowers of rural and small town churches (Mike Cope)
Link to the Center for Ministry at York University
Donate to support this ministry of "information and inspiration" at christianchronicle.org/donate
Send your comments, ideas, and suggestions to podcast@christianchronicle.org
Learn more about how to visit the Bible lands as a graduate student at the Freed-Hardeman University Graduate School of Theology at fhu.edu/chronicle
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
BT Irwin (00:03):
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle podcast.
We're bringing you the storiesshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
I'm BT Earley May what you areabout to hear.
Bless you and honor God.
Over the last, oh, 20 years orso, we here at the Christian
(00:24):
Chronicle have been reporting onhow Church of Christ
congregations in the rural areasand small towns of the United
States are getting smaller andsmaller year after year.
Some are holding on but othersare closing.
You can read the stories in theChristian Chronicle's archives.
Earlier this year we reportedthat the Lilly Endowment granted
(00:45):
Pepperdine University in Malibu, california, several million
dollars to try to reverse thattrend.
God knows.
We here at the ChristianChronicle would like to report
on congregations growing andmultiplying in rural areas and
small towns.
Back in episode 119, we hadPepperdine University's Mike
Cope explaining how the LillyEndowment grant money will go to
(01:07):
work all over the United States.
The basic plan that he laid outin that episode is that several
partner institutions, mostlycolleges and universities of
Church of Christ heritage, willinvest portions of the grant in
working with rural and smallChurch of Christ congregations
in their geographic regions.
York University in York,nebraska, a school with roots
(01:29):
and strong ties in the Church ofChrist, invested the Lilly
Endowment funds in the creationof what it calls the Center for
Ministry.
Now the Center for Ministry isdoing a lot of the things you
would expect it to do if helpingrural and small-town churches
is its mission, but it's doingone thing more it's putting
special focus on girls and women.
(01:49):
Doesn't that just make all thesense in the world?
I mean, think about it.
Have you ever encountered anactive, growing, healthy
congregation that did not havegirls and women at its heart?
And I don't know about you, butI know far more women who
brought people to church and ledthem to faith in Jesus Christ
than I know men who did the same.
(02:10):
So if breathing new life intorural and small town
congregations is the goal, couldthere be any better way to go
at it than by activating,empowering, equipping and
following the lead of girls andwomen?
York University is counting onit and for that reason its new
Center for Ministry brought inDr Anessa Westbrook.
(02:30):
She comes to York Universityafter more than a decade on the
faculty at Harding University,where she taught in the College
of Bible and Ministry anddirected the annual Bloom
Conference for Women Disciples.
She is a biblical scholar andministry leader who specializes
in helping girls and womendiscover Christian discipleship.
She's here with us today.
Dr Westbrook, congratulationsto you on your appointment to
(02:53):
co-lead the Center for Ministryat York University and thank you
for being our guest today.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (02:57):
Thank you for having me.
BT Irwin (02:59):
It's a pleasure, so congratulations to you for your
appointment to co-lead the newCenter for Ministry at York
University.
That came about because Yorkbecame part of Pepperdine
University's Lilly Endowmentfunded Rural and Small Town
Initiative, which we've reportedon here at the Christian
Chronicle.
Now, in particular, the Centerfor Ministry at York will focus
(03:19):
on Church of Christcongregations in the Great
Plains, Midwest and RockyMountain regions of the United
States.
Since most of our listenersdon't live in those regions,
what can you tell us about thestate of the church and its
communities there in thosestates?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (03:35):
Well, I've been at this job an entire
month and a half, so I don'tconsider myself an expert, yet
very much a learner, but I havehad a chance to have great
conversations Of learner, but Ihave had a chance to have great
conversations.
Of course, we've been doing alot of research on this and we
really started before the centerbegan on July 1st.
But here's some of the thingsthat we're hearing and these are
(03:57):
what I would consider to betrends.
Attendance is very small.
It's very low, in fact.
I was speaking to a preacherthis week and there were only
four people in attendance at thechurch where he preached.
Now most of them aren't thatsmall, but it is small.
A number of churches havereported to me that they have
aging populations.
There have been a few that havesaid that they really don't
(04:20):
have families or members underthe age of 50, and so they need
help learning how to reach out.
We actually have a coachingprogram that's going on right
now.
We had a cohort with RickGibson and he is trying to help
church leaders figure out how tokind of move past some of the
mental blocks that they mighthave or be creative and trying
(04:42):
to figure out how to reach outto the community and also
address some of the other issues.
I've also been doing somereading, so the churches are
dealing with things that theyreally don't feel qualified to
deal with A lot of addiction andjust social issues that are
really a stretch for some ofthem.
Again, there are a lot ofchurches that are having a hard
(05:05):
time figuring out how to connectto the community, how to engage
with the younger populationaround them and attract them to
church.
That has become verydiscouraging, so discouragement
is a big issue.
So there are some churches thatare located in areas that have
a bigger population, but they'redrawing from rural areas.
(05:26):
And so those churches, eventhough they're in some place
that is population-wise larger,they're still smaller than you
might expect to see, becausethey don't have a connection
with the people around them.
And then there's also there'sstates that have a very low
number of churches.
I was speaking to one churchleader and he was listing off
(05:49):
different churches in his state,and there were about 10 to 12
in the entire state.
I was speaking with Dr Lairdearlier this week, who is
actually my co-director for thecenter, and he mentioned a state
where he believes there's onlyfive churches, so they're very
spread out and there's a realneed for community between them
(06:09):
when they have an event.
I mean, those church leadersare going to have to drive.
They're used to driving, youknow, one, two hours easy.
Sometimes they have to drivefurther than that.
So it is, you know, it is a bigdeal.
They need support, for sure.
Then, of course, there's thefear of what do we do if we
can't attract a younger crowd?
What are we going to do?
(06:29):
Are we going to have to close?
And we're hoping that we canhelp revive and provide support
and encouragement to thesechurches so that they don't have
to face that reality.
BT Irwin (06:41):
It's crazy to think about, because the states that
you cover are huge in squaremileage, and to think about a
huge state with fourcongregations and you said a
couple hour drive.
I imagine some of those folkswould have to drive.
Initiative seeks to start a newtrend in growth and health
among Church of Christcongregations In a part of the
(07:10):
country that is not known to bea hotbed for the Church of
Christ.
How are y'all going to do that?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (07:18):
I mean it is a huge responsibility, I mean
it's one that seems very holy,and you look at it and you just
wonder, okay, so how can we dothis?
And pretty early on, after DrLaird and I got started with
this, both of us felt convictedabout a couple of things.
One is that we should notassume that we know what the
(07:42):
churches need, I mean just froma basic standpoint.
We cannot assume that weunderstand their situation.
And the second thing we becameconvicted about is that we need
to pour into the leaders of thechurches and help them grow and
develop.
And what we've done is we'vetried to identify some people
that are regional leaders andthat definitely have connections
(08:08):
and already have respect withthe different churches there,
and so we're gathering them upfirst to try to find out exactly
what is needed in these areasand get advice and get a better
picture of what's happening.
And then we're going to extendfrom there of what we're
attempting to do and, lordwilling, with a lot of prayer
(08:29):
and God's guidance, we might beable to do this.
But we would like to startsomething that is grassroots,
that will last longer than thegrant, and so we have about four
years left on the grant.
But this work, this doesn'tneed to end in four years.
The churches need to have animpact much beyond that, and so
that's what we're attempting todo, and we also think that if
(08:52):
there's greater connectionbetween the congregations in
these areas, as they're facingthings that are similar, if that
connection and thatconversation is established and
they're used to having thoseconversations with each other,
that they can help each otherbrainstorm to try to find
(09:12):
solutions, and so that I thinkthat's important.
I'm also beginning work on whatwe're referring to as kind of a
women's council to try to helpme identify needs of the women
in the region, and this is goingto be made up of women who are
active in their churches.
Not all of them will beprofessionally in ministry,
because a lot of these churchesdon't even have a full-time
preacher, and so there are a fewthat are larger that might have
(09:35):
a woman on staff, but we'regoing to be exploring what is
needed among the women.
But one of the big issues for ushas been trying to locate
churches.
As you probably know, theChurches of Christ in the United
States book is very out of date, and then there's a new group
that's come along that refers tothemselves as a church research
(09:57):
council that is trying to gettogether a list so that we can
find churches, and so we'reexcited about that.
But we're also having our ownconversations and doing our own
research to try to locate thechurches in our region so we can
reach out to them.
But just to kind of put a plugin for that effort with the
Church Research Council, I wouldjust encourage churches to fill
(10:18):
that out so that churches canfind each other.
I think that's important.
Another thing that we're tryingto do is Dr Laird is actually
developing shepherdingconferences Now he's been doing
these for a long time.
He's done four or five, and theones he's been doing are
multi-day events, but what he'sdeveloping are eight one-day
(10:39):
events.
These are going to float aroundour region and we're hoping
that this will help encourageand train shepherds.
And then we're also going tohave something for shepherds'
wives, and so that's also aneffort.
He is looking for hostcongregations and we're also
still seeking some support forthose, and so with this and then
(11:00):
other things that we're tryingto do, we're going to have
different cohorts that are goingto zero in on specific needs.
I'm in conversation with aprofessor right now who is going
to be doing a cohort calledThrive.
That's basically looking athelping people who are
experiencing compassion, fatigueor burnout, and so that's
(11:21):
something that we're going to beoffering.
That's probably going to startup in January.
We're still trying to figureout details, but we're doing
something called a layeringapproach that's how we're
referring to it, as Because wedon't believe one size fits all
we want to make sure that wehave lots of options for
different people to get the typeof training or encouragement
(11:43):
that they need.
And then, once we get a lot ofcohorts started and so we're
targeting having about 10different cohorts and we're
going to allow these largergroups of ministers and people
who are already very active intheir regions to help inform
who's going to be in them, helpus start them.
But once these are started,then, as they see a need, we're
(12:07):
going to contact somebody whocan provide for that need,
somebody that has the expertisein that area.
BT Irwin (12:13):
So when I think of a rural or small town Church of
Christ congregations and I visita lot of them all the time as I
preach and teach here and there, and those are my roots I think
conservative, and I mean thatin the best way the belief that
some things are essential or ifnot essential, at least worth
(12:34):
conserving and that we should becareful, slow, thoughtful about
change.
So I reckon perceptions aboutchange could be the point of
friction for the work you mightbe setting out to do with rural
and small town congregations.
How much change do you think isactually necessary for Church
of Christ congregations to growand thrive again in rural and
(12:56):
small towns, and what kind ofchange and how might you help
change averse or change cautiouscongregations, ease their way
into it?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (13:04):
Well, it's kind of interesting when you
think about change because everysingle person has a different
tolerance level for it.
So somebody might pursue changejust because they like to keep
things interesting.
Somebody else's kind of gutlevel reaction to it could be
pushing back on it.
So when we talk about change incongregations, I think a lot of
times we're not specifyingexactly what we're talking about
(13:25):
.
So when we talk about change incongregations, I think a lot of
times we're not specifyingexactly what we're talking about
.
So if we're resisting change,does that mean across the board?
Are we not going to changeanything that we're doing, the
way we're reaching out?
Of course there's been a lot ofdiscussion over the years about
song choice in church and howwe construct some of those
(13:45):
things.
But change in and of itself, ifwe're just going to look at it
not in specifics but justgenerally, change is necessary.
When the world is changing,we've got to figure out new
solutions to new problems andthe discomfort that comes with
change isn't necessarily a badthing.
(14:07):
I mean, I think if we were allbeing honest with ourselves, the
times where we grew the mostwere times when something was
new, where we had to stretchourselves.
Kent Brantley, the Ebola doctor,if you may remember him from a
number of years ago.
But when he came and spoke onetime he said that in the United
(14:29):
States our God is comfort and Ithought that is such an
interesting perspective and I'venever forgotten that and we,
truly, we enjoy beingcomfortable.
If you just think about how weconstruct our lives, we want to
be comfortable, we want thingsto just stay in that state, but
is that going to overrule theother good things that could be
(14:50):
done?
And I've thought about that alot.
I've shared that with mystudents.
I've also think about it whenI'm in situations that might not
be the most comfortable, butI'm doing something that I
really feel like is pursuing theLord's work.
Then you know we've got to pushourselves.
We can't just stay stagnant.
So when it comes to the smalland rural churches, especially
(15:14):
the ones that are notexperiencing a lot of growth,
that have little to no, few tono families in them, then
something's got to change.
I mean, this is all hands ondeck at this point and in some
of these situations we've got toscramble and churches need to
figure out how to reach out tothe younger population and
(15:37):
really show to them reallydemonstrate that they care about
what they're going through, andthat's going to be pushing
themselves.
It's going to be change.
I grew up in Northeast Oklahomaand I remember when the Joy Bus
was a big thing and we actuallywere running two different Joy
Buses and we had all these kidscoming and it was wonderful.
(15:58):
It was great, but it createdchange and you heard all types
of stories about differentchurches that had all these kids
coming.
What a wonderful problem, butit created change.
The classrooms became moreunruly, carpets got messed up.
You know there were things thathappened and but still like
(16:19):
that's uncomfortable.
So we don't want to like makeour God comfort, we want to push
ourselves.
BT Irwin (16:25):
As you were talking, I was thinking a little bit about
politics and I don't like tobring in politics this is not
going where people think it isbut there has been discussion in
our nation lately about inpolitics, the oldest people have
all the power and there needsto be a making way for younger
(16:47):
generations to take their ownhand at governing in our country
.
And as I'm about to turn 50this year, I've said a lot to
people recently I don't feellike I'm about to turn 50.
I still feel like I'm 25.
I don't think of myself asmidlife 50.
I still feel like I'm 25.
I don't think of myself asmidlife.
I think of myself as young andstarting out.
(17:08):
And so, on the one hand, whenyou talked about people in these
congregations being over theage of 50, I think a lot of us
who are over the age of 50 don'tknow that we're over the age of
50.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (17:21):
Yeah, I always forget my age.
BT Irwin (17:23):
Yeah, we don't want to believe it.
We still feel young, we stillfeel like we're starting out,
and so maybe we're not thinkingin terms of getting out of the
way or at least reaching downand pulling up younger
generations into leadership.
So, as you were talking, I wasjust thinking is a disconnect
(17:44):
between generations one of theroot causes of congregational
decline?
Because as we get older, wecan't let go and we won't let go
and we're not thinking we needto share this congregation with
the generations coming up behindus.
That's just not even on ourmind.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (18:03):
Yeah, I would say definitely, and one of
the things that happened,especially when we're looking at
young families, is the way theyview time and events is
different and this kind ofchurch there's sports, there's
kids activities, and they're onthe same level.
BT Irwin (18:34):
Yeah.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (18:35):
And so when they're trying to pick and
choose, they're all good things,you know they're good things,
but some families may be viewingthem as equal, and so I feel
like that's something that wedefinitely need to address.
But I know, with the women'sministry that I was working with
before we moved, one of thethings that we really tried to
(18:57):
do was really pursue the youngerfamilies and try to get them
involved with what we were doing, and so we would try to
incorporate the young mothers,we would try to reach out to
their kids, and so if we had awomen's event, we would try to
get some of those kids to readscripture and things like that
(19:18):
at the event.
So we really need to show themthat they're needed, and I think
that we probably need to go alittle bit overboard with that.
I'm always thinking about thesituation that came up in Acts
with the Grecian widows thatwere overlooked in the
distribution of food.
That is such a beautiful,beautiful example of how to
(19:38):
handle something that comes upBecause the early church didn't
say okay, we're going to fixthis, we're going to go 50-50.
Okay, we're going to fix this,we're going to go 50-50.
They pursued these women bychoosing seven men who spoke
Greek, and we need to go all outin trying to reach the younger
generation and try to reachthose families and bring them in
.
And part of that is also sayinghey, we need you, we need your
(20:02):
skills, we need your input, weneed your wisdom and you have
something to offer and reallyjust show them that, show them
how important they are.
BT Irwin (20:12):
I'm glad you brought up the thing about time with
church, youth, sports, that kindof thing.
It reminded me that my wife,who's about my age, of course,
and she's a senior leader at anorganization I don't think about
40 people, work for herdirectly and one of the hard
adjustments for her as she'smoved up the ladder into senior
(20:34):
management has been thatmillennials, in particular,
she's told me, millennials,expect to be involved in
decision making and know what'sgoing on in a way that, like Gen
X, my generation, my wife'sgeneration and then our parents,
did not expect.
And so, working with millennialsin her workplace, it's like
(20:56):
they want to be in the roomwhere it happens to follow a
line from Hamilton, and so whenyou were talking about how
younger generations think abouttime, I was also thinking that
the generations that tend tolead congregations now come from
much more of a hierarchicalworldview, whereas these younger
(21:18):
generations expect to beinvolved almost immediately and
to know everything that's goingon, and so when they feel shut
out, when they feel left out ofthose things, then they don't
hang around, they go somewhereelse, and what you just said
reminded me of that.
One of your areas of experienceand expertise is Christian
(21:40):
discipleship among women.
You've brought it up a couple oftimes here and getting ready
for this interview actuallysurprised me.
When I look back at all of thechurch growth or church health
experts that we've had on thisshow, or when I try to think of
all the church growth or churchhealth experts that I know they
are all men and I'll add to thatI've been in plenty of
(22:02):
congregations that held theirown without men serving as
elders or preachers, but I'venever been in a congregation
that could hold its own withoutwomen.
That's coming from the grandsonand the son of a conservative
church Christ preacher and I cantell you in our family we have
always believed that women arethe backbone and central nervous
system of a healthy localcongregation.
(22:22):
Yet most of our church growthand church health stuff at least
that I've consumed over thelast 20, 30, 40 years seems to
focus the most on men and whatthey're doing.
So as you enter your new rolewith the Center for Ministry,
how will you put forth thegrowth of girls and women as
(22:43):
crucial and essential to thegrowth and health of rural and
small town congregations?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (22:48):
Yeah Well, I appreciate you sharing those
observations with me.
I've had a number of preachersover the years say something
very similar.
I had a prominent preacher onetime say that if you want to
know who's really running theevents at church, drop by my
building during the week andyou're going to see it full of
women that are busy doing things.
(23:09):
So women are very important andkind of like you mentioned
about the millennials, they wantto be heard, and this is
something that I found veryinteresting because being heard
and being a part of thedecision-making is so important
to them.
I have seen churches that havemade moves to try to have more
(23:31):
public roles for women but havenot involved them in decision
making, and that's really whatthey're craving is to be heard
and to be able to make an impactin their church.
So I'm glad you brought thatout, but I wanted to add that on
that is similar with women, aswith millennials, and so with
the center, one of the thingsthat we are committed to is
(23:54):
trying to help both men andwomen in their roles and
preparing to help their churchesand preparing for ministry in
whatever capacity that they aregoing to be a part of it.
And, like for my background ofcoming from that small church in
Northeast Oklahoma, mygrandmother I had two
(24:15):
grandmothers that were veryinvolved in church.
One of them was a long-termmissionary, the other one was a
volunteer and did so manydifferent things, so I had some
great examples.
I didn't have to look very farfor mentors my mom was a Bible
class teacher and so that wasreally helpful.
But trying to encourage churchesto use the women that they have
(24:38):
and have them invest into thatnext generation of women and
mentor them, I think that'sreally important From the
situation where we are right nowin society, and especially in
these smaller and rural churches, because we need everybody.
We just do not have the luxuryI don't know that we ever really
(24:59):
had this luxury, but we do nothave the luxury of only going
and utilizing half of ourcongregation, of only going and
utilizing half of ourcongregation.
We really do need every personin our churches to view their
life as ministry and try tofigure out how to use the gifts
that God has given them.
And I mean take a look atwhat's happening often in our
(25:19):
society, different issues thatcome up.
If we're really going to makean impact, then we've got to
think about how to use everymember of our congregation, even
the kids, like even encouragingthem.
We need absolutely everybody todeal with some of the things
that we're facing right now, andso what we're going to try to
do is we're going to providetraining and we're going to
(25:43):
incorporate that into our events, into our offerings.
I'm looking at starting somethings on the campus of York,
working with some of thestudents there who are
interested in going out andserving.
We're going to be trying tohelp women get placed in
internships and I don't know howchallenging this is going to be
(26:04):
up here, because it's a littleeasier in the South, you know
but we're going to try to helpthem get those opportunities and
it could be that that we'll betrying to place some in the
South as well and some of theSouthern churches.
So if you have internshippossibilities for students,
please send it my direction andI'll try to see if I can get
somebody connected to that, seeif I can get somebody connected
(26:30):
to that, but also just trying toencourage churches to help
women discover who they are.
One of the things that is anissue a lot of times is that
women do not see themselves asplaying a crucial role, and I
remember nobody said this.
Okay, so I'm going to tell astory on myself, but no one said
this to me.
But when I was at school, Iprepared the best I could for
(26:54):
the mission field.
I took the classes, I did thetraining, I went to the
conferences, I did all of it.
But in my heart of hearts, Ireally believed that my husband
would be the one to answer thehard questions.
As soon as we got to the missionfield, one of the things that I
discovered was that that justwasn't the case.
(27:14):
So we're going to distinguishbetween him and me and so
helping women really take theirface seriously, because a lot of
times we're going to be insituations and we're going to be
the ones that are called uponto answer those tough questions.
It could come from kids, itcould come from somebody at
school, it could come fromsomebody at work, but we all
(27:36):
need to be prepared to answer.
We need to be prepared toanswer those questions, and so
that's really important.
So those, and then we're alsowe're going to have a retreat
for women who are working inministry, and then we're
developing some ministers'wives' retreats, because we
believe that the wives ofministers are so important, and
(27:59):
if the wife gets burnt out,sometimes the husband ends up
leaving ministry to focus on hisfamily.
So we're going to do our bestto try to encourage them as well
.
BT Irwin (28:09):
I reckon the vast majority of all church growth
and church health, articles andbooks and programs of maybe the
last 50 to 100 years in theChurch of Christ came from men,
and so I want to ask what mightwe be missing?
By having such a male-dominatedschool of thought on how the
church grows and thrives?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (28:31):
Yeah, well , first of all, there's
something that's a little bitdifferent with female spiritual
development from men's spiritualdevelopment, and it could be
because of what we're doing,because of our focus on men.
But we have these younger boysthat have opportunities early on
, which is wonderful.
(28:51):
I'm 110% behind this.
Okay, so this is great.
However, a lot of times, theyounger women do not have the
same type of focus, and so whatends up happening is, as they're
sitting there, I mean,basically they become observers.
So when we put them into thatposition, we're not energizing
(29:15):
them for growth.
Women have so many gifts and, aswe talked about previously, one
of the things that we see isthat women are so active in
churches.
See, is that women are soactive in churches, and so we
need to be encouraging that, butnot only encouraging it, but
also holding it up and showingthat it really is.
(29:35):
It's making a difference,encouraging people to work
within their gift set.
I think that's really important.
When it comes to men, hopefully, there's some sort of you sort
of distinction between who'sgood at what.
It could be not a man, so maybeyou all feel that you're kind
of pushed into the same moldsometimes, but in some churches,
(29:58):
women are pushed into the samemold and like, for example, what
are the options here?
You can help with the potluckor you can teach children's
classes, and we overlook a lotof the other opportunities that
might show up in outreach ordifferent parts of the church.
If a woman has leadershipskills in her school, where
(30:19):
she's a teacher, how could achurch utilize those?
If a woman has financial skills, if she's in that field, how
could she be of assistance tothe church?
And I know that's a biggerconversation.
But, like, exactly what do theyhave to offer?
And we're going to have tothink and be creative of how to
use it, because we do, we'remissing out on those when we're
(30:39):
not incorporating them.
And then, if women don't have anactive role or a planning role,
there's one specific area that,for whatever reason, women
often end up being involved in,and that is reaching out to
visitors.
You know.
So, like those types ofoutreaches, I believe that women
(31:00):
are natural connectors.
They're really good at watchingout for other people.
They have those nurturingskills and those nurturing
abilities and there's somediscussion about is that because
of childbearing, becausethey're formed for childbearing?
That could be the case.
I don't know, but it does pop upa lot, and so women they're the
(31:23):
glue.
They're the glue to a churchand really help the church stay
connected in a way that'sspecial.
So when we're not focusing onthem and when their voice isn't
heard, especially when it comesto planning, then we may be
losing out of incorporating someof those things that they have
(31:43):
to offer into that.
The other thing.
So if this was a podcast aboutpreparing preachers for ministry
, one of the things I would havesaid would be okay, listen to
your wives, because they haveantennas and they pick up on
things, and women seem to have areally strong sense of
discernment, and so when we'renot listening to them and
(32:06):
incorporating them, we're losingout on that as well.
BT Irwin (32:09):
When you were talking about the church, we make these
assumptions about people.
We treat women as monoliths andmen as monoliths, that because
they're a man or a woman, theymust be good at this and not
that.
And so when you're talkingabout the girls being observers,
I thought it's because if wedon't actually know the people
in our congregations and howthey're gifted as individuals,
(32:32):
then we'll never be able to callout those gifts and call them
to use them in the body ofChrist.
I do want to ask though maybeyou already answered this
question but what attributes ofwomen make them specially fit
for making disciples?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (32:50):
I want to point out that some of the men
in congregations are alsoobservers.
BT Irwin (32:56):
Yeah.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (32:56):
So they don't have a chance when we're
overemphasizing that one hour.
If they don't have public gifts, then they may not be utilized
either.
So this is really thisparticular issue definitely
spans across both genders, kindof as you brought up too.
But as far as what attributesof women really really gift them
for making disciples at thefirst one and let's keep an open
(33:20):
mind when I say this one so andthat is shepherding.
So this is not saying thatthey're elders, but it's the
gift of shepherding, if youliterally think about what that
looks like, where somebody istaking care of a flock of people
.
This pops up a lot on spiritualgift inventories, and so I've
actually had to answer thisquestion quite a bit, because
(33:41):
women will get this gift andthey'll say, okay, what is going
on here?
Because I am not an elder, Iwill not be an elder.
But what does this mean?
And I'll ask questions likewhen you go to church, do you
notice who's there, who isn'tthere?
Do you follow up on people?
If somebody has a prayerrequest in Bible class, do you
check on them later to see howthey're doing?
(34:02):
I mean, somebody that's goingto do that is going to have that
gift, and so they're very goodat that, they're going to go out
of their way to do it.
A lot of times they don't haveas many social concerns, I would
say they're the ones that arechatting after church, checking
in on people and things likethat.
It seems like I'm the lastperson to leave the building a
(34:24):
lot of times because I'm talkingto people, and a lot of other
women are like that too.
And then, of course, like wetalked about before, connecting
being able to help peopleconnect whether that's somebody
that visits the church, and if achurch out there has a women's
ministry this is something thatcould be good for them to get
involved with is basically whatis our follow-up process when
(34:47):
somebody comes to visit?
Is that something that they canassist with too?
Kind of coming up with ideas onhow to handle it, or connecting
different groups within thechurch, trying to keep open eyes
to see who's not involved.
I believe that involvementministries would be it would be
really wise for them toincorporate women into it,
(35:08):
because they do reach out prettynaturally to other people and
then, like you mentioned, tryingto figure out what people's
gifting are.
It's like what is that Like?
What are they good at?
How do we use them in thechurch.
And then the big thing, I thinkand this could be true for both
men and women, but I reallyfeel like women get into a lot
(35:29):
of circles pretty naturally inthe community and if we could
just really help them see howimportant that is and I don't
know if the listeners out thereare familiar with missional
churches or missional thinking,but basically what that is is,
as you're out in the community,you keep your eyes open to see
(35:50):
what's happening.
What are the needs?
And I'm putting this verysimply, but basically, what are
the needs?
Do we see God opening up a doorthat hasn't been opened up
before?
And how are we going to meetthat need?
And so women, as they're goingabout and they're interacting
(36:11):
with different people at work ordifferent community
organizations, they are verywell equipped to hear the needs
of people, be able to identifythose, and then you're creative
with how to meet that need.
Now I would say that, as thisis happening, I'm sure this
isn't just a Church of Christproblem, but we tend to
overthink things.
Let's spend a year trying tocome up with a perfect plan, but
(36:35):
with this type of approach, weneed to just come up with
something that we think mightwork and experiment, to just
give ourselves permission to tryit out.
And then communication isanother one that I think of.
And then we've also mentionedpicking up on things, dynamics
or potential issues that otherpeople may not pick up on.
You know, those are someattributes that come to mind.
BT Irwin (36:57):
My, my degree is in marketing and you know, those
are some attributes that come tomind.
My degree is in marketing andone of the things about
marketing is there's somethingcalled propensity marketing,
which basically means it's a loteasier to ride a wave than to
make a wave.
So a really good marketer knowshow to spot a wave building and
grab their surfboard and ride onthat wave rather than try to
(37:18):
make waves.
And a lot of churches, I think,are trying to make waves, and
so what you're saying is thatwomen in particular may be very
well attuned to the waves.
That are building theircommunities, and so they can be
the ones who say let's grab ourboard and catch a wave.
Yeah, men may want to makewaves, right.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (37:41):
Yeah.
BT Irwin (37:42):
But those waves that are already building in the
community are where you see Godat work.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (37:47):
Yes.
I mean God's amazing.
Some of the doors that he canopen up, walls he can bring down
, I mean he's at work.
We've got to believe that Godis at work in our communities.
We just need to look and seewhat he's up to.
My husband and I we weremissionaries in Hungary.
In the mid-90s is when we movedover and as we were working
(38:08):
with people, they would tell usstories sometimes about how they
didn't have anybody in theirfamily that believed in God,
except for maybe a grandmother,but it wasn't like an active
part of their life, but theyknew he was there.
Then they would cite differentthings that happened.
They felt like God was tryingto reach them or guide them and
it was really interestingbecause at the time a lot of
(38:31):
different people were sayinglet's take God to Eastern Europe
.
God was already in EasternEurope and we have to believe
that God is at work in ourcommunities.
We just need to figure out whathe's up to.
We need to keep our eyes openand women I mean especially
equipped to be out there andkind of keep those feelers out.
BT Irwin (38:54):
Yeah, agreed, agreed.
I was thinking a little bitabout how in my life, in
community development work andin congregations, there are
certain groups of people thatthere's a power dynamic in play
here and more privileges isoften an assumption that I don't
think they even recognize inthemselves, that they have
(39:21):
nothing to learn from those whohave less power or less
privileges.
I could give you specificexamples but I won't right now.
So in the Church of Christ inparticular, where men do the
preaching and the teaching andthe eldering, I feel like there
can become this it may besubconscious assumption among
(39:43):
men that they have nothing tolearn from women, that they
cannot be taught by women, and,if I'm picking up what you're
putting down, as girls grow upin that and women grow up in
that, that leads to it could bea subconscious belief that they
have nothing to teach men intheir congregation.
(40:06):
And so I'm just wondering howwould our churches be different
if we listened to girls andwomen more, If we believed we
had something to learn from themand we want to be taught by
them?
How would that change thechurch?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (40:24):
Yeah, well , first of all, let me say that
we really we need to recognizethat we can learn from anybody
and maybe, by human nature,maybe we're trying to preserve
our sense of self-worth, but wetend to think that just because
I'm X or just because I havethis training, I can't learn
from somebody who doesn't havewhat I have.
(40:46):
Where I can have a conversationwith somebody with no college
degree maybe they've got aneighth grade education and
that's it and this person couldbe gifted by God with the
spiritual gift of wisdom andreally speak something to me and
into my life that I need tolearn.
One of the uncomfortablethoughts that I often have and
(41:10):
this pops up when I was teachingin New Testament and Old
Testament especially is whenJesus and God would interact
with people and would sendpeople.
If you think about the prophets, I mean, it's not like these
guys were YouTube stars orsomebody that was really
attractive.
I mean, some of them were justflat out weird, you know, and
(41:32):
that was who God wanted thepeople to listen to, and so when
I think about that, I thought,okay, so if God was trying to
get our attention today and hesent us somebody that was
outside the norm.
That was not somebody that waspopular, not somebody that was
attractive.
Bible says, you know, jesuswasn't an attractive person.
(41:55):
His personality, I believe, wasprobably very magnetic.
I believe his love for peopleoozed out of him.
But if they're not fitting whatwe believe an influencer should
look like, like what if he wastrying to speak to us through
something like that?
So through someone like that,then would we listen?
(42:16):
And so I really think, on abroader level, we need to be
challenging ourselves to learnand listen to different people,
and you know so when it comes towomen, if women would have a
chance to really share theirperspective and share their
(42:37):
point of view, that is somethingthat is rich, and one of my
favorite Bible classes that I'veever attended was one that had
a number of people throughoutthe class, from all different
fields, share how they viewed aparticular section of scripture.
Every single one of them viewedit from a different lens, and
that made the scripture richer.
(42:58):
So when we listen to women andlisten to their perspectives and
what they see, that is going tomake what we're doing.
That will make scriptureChristian life.
All of it will be richer, and Ibelieve we would be more
compassionate.
Women tend to be compassionateand kind of rush in and get
(43:18):
involved with situations.
That's something else that wehaven't really discussed, but
yeah, I think that's important.
BT Irwin (43:27):
Well, dr Anessa Westbrook is the new
co-executive director of theCenter for Ministry at York
University.
If you are listening to this,in the American heartland, the
Midwest, the Great Plains, theRocky Mountain states, she and
the team at the Center forMinistry are there to be a
resource for you as you seekgrowth and health in your local
(43:49):
congregations.
We'll put links in the shownotes to the Center for Ministry
so you can get in contact withthem.
Dr Westbrook, thank you forbeing our guest today.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (43:57):
Thank you so much for having me.
BT Irwin (43:59):
It's been a pleasure.
We hope something you heard inthis episode encouraged,
enlightened or enriched you insome way.
If it did, thanks be to God andplease pay it forward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Recommend and review itwherever you listen to your
favorite podcasts.
Your subscription,recommendation and review help
(44:20):
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Please send your comments,ideas and suggestions to podcast
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(44:41):
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The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Calvin
(45:03):
Cockrell, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and president and CEO
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The Christian Chronicle iswritten, directed, hosted and
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Podcast your Voice Studios inthe Motor City, detroit,
michigan, usa.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle podcast.
We're bringing you the storiesshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
I'm BT Earley May what you areabout to hear.
Bless you and honor God.
Over the last, oh, 20 years orso, we here at the Christian
(00:24):
Chronicle have been reporting onhow Church of Christ
congregations in the rural areasand small towns of the United
States are getting smaller andsmaller year after year.
Some are holding on but othersare closing.
You can read the stories in theChristian Chronicle's archives.
Earlier this year we reportedthat the Lilly Endowment granted
(00:45):
Pepperdine University in Malibu, california, several million
dollars to try to reverse thattrend.
God knows.
We here at the ChristianChronicle would like to report
on congregations growing andmultiplying in rural areas and
small towns.
Back in episode 119, we hadPepperdine University's Mike
Cope explaining how the LillyEndowment grant money will go to
(01:07):
work all over the United States.
The basic plan that he laid outin that episode is that several
partner institutions, mostlycolleges and universities of
Church of Christ heritage, willinvest portions of the grant in
working with rural and smallChurch of Christ congregations
in their geographic regions.
York University in York,nebraska, a school with roots
(01:29):
and strong ties in the Church ofChrist, invested the Lilly
Endowment funds in the creationof what it calls the Center for
Ministry.
Now the Center for Ministry isdoing a lot of the things you
would expect it to do if helpingrural and small-town churches
is its mission, but it's doingone thing more it's putting
special focus on girls and women.
(01:49):
Doesn't that just make all thesense in the world?
I mean, think about it.
Have you ever encountered anactive, growing, healthy
congregation that did not havegirls and women at its heart?
And I don't know about you, butI know far more women who
brought people to church and ledthem to faith in Jesus Christ
than I know men who did the same.
(02:10):
So if breathing new life intorural and small town
congregations is the goal, couldthere be any better way to go
at it than by activating,empowering, equipping and
following the lead of girls andwomen?
York University is counting onit and for that reason its new
Center for Ministry brought inDr Anessa Westbrook.
(02:30):
She comes to York Universityafter more than a decade on the
faculty at Harding University,where she taught in the College
of Bible and Ministry anddirected the annual Bloom
Conference for Women Disciples.
She is a biblical scholar andministry leader who specializes
in helping girls and womendiscover Christian discipleship.
She's here with us today.
Dr Westbrook, congratulationsto you on your appointment to
(02:53):
co-lead the Center for Ministryat York University and thank you
for being our guest today.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (02:57):
Thank you for having me.
BT Irwin (02:59):
It's a pleasure, so congratulations to you for your
appointment to co-lead the newCenter for Ministry at York
University.
That came about because Yorkbecame part of Pepperdine
University's Lilly Endowmentfunded Rural and Small Town
Initiative, which we've reportedon here at the Christian
Chronicle.
Now, in particular, the Centerfor Ministry at York will focus
(03:19):
on Church of Christcongregations in the Great
Plains, Midwest and RockyMountain regions of the United
States.
Since most of our listenersdon't live in those regions,
what can you tell us about thestate of the church and its
communities there in thosestates?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (03:35):
Well, I've been at this job an entire
month and a half, so I don'tconsider myself an expert, yet
very much a learner, but I havehad a chance to have great
conversations Of learner, but Ihave had a chance to have great
conversations.
Of course, we've been doing alot of research on this and we
really started before the centerbegan on July 1st.
But here's some of the thingsthat we're hearing and these are
(03:57):
what I would consider to betrends.
Attendance is very small.
It's very low, in fact.
I was speaking to a preacherthis week and there were only
four people in attendance at thechurch where he preached.
Now most of them aren't thatsmall, but it is small.
A number of churches havereported to me that they have
aging populations.
There have been a few that havesaid that they really don't
(04:20):
have families or members underthe age of 50, and so they need
help learning how to reach out.
We actually have a coachingprogram that's going on right
now.
We had a cohort with RickGibson and he is trying to help
church leaders figure out how tokind of move past some of the
mental blocks that they mighthave or be creative and trying
(04:42):
to figure out how to reach outto the community and also
address some of the other issues.
I've also been doing somereading, so the churches are
dealing with things that theyreally don't feel qualified to
deal with A lot of addiction andjust social issues that are
really a stretch for some ofthem.
Again, there are a lot ofchurches that are having a hard
(05:05):
time figuring out how to connectto the community, how to engage
with the younger populationaround them and attract them to
church.
That has become verydiscouraging, so discouragement
is a big issue.
So there are some churches thatare located in areas that have
a bigger population, but they'redrawing from rural areas.
(05:26):
And so those churches, eventhough they're in some place
that is population-wise larger,they're still smaller than you
might expect to see, becausethey don't have a connection
with the people around them.
And then there's also there'sstates that have a very low
number of churches.
I was speaking to one churchleader and he was listing off
(05:49):
different churches in his state,and there were about 10 to 12
in the entire state.
I was speaking with Dr Lairdearlier this week, who is
actually my co-director for thecenter, and he mentioned a state
where he believes there's onlyfive churches, so they're very
spread out and there's a realneed for community between them
(06:09):
when they have an event.
I mean, those church leadersare going to have to drive.
They're used to driving, youknow, one, two hours easy.
Sometimes they have to drivefurther than that.
So it is, you know, it is a bigdeal.
They need support, for sure.
Then, of course, there's thefear of what do we do if we
can't attract a younger crowd?
What are we going to do?
(06:29):
Are we going to have to close?
And we're hoping that we canhelp revive and provide support
and encouragement to thesechurches so that they don't have
to face that reality.
BT Irwin (06:41):
It's crazy to think about, because the states that
you cover are huge in squaremileage, and to think about a
huge state with fourcongregations and you said a
couple hour drive.
I imagine some of those folkswould have to drive.
Initiative seeks to start a newtrend in growth and health
among Church of Christcongregations In a part of the
(07:10):
country that is not known to bea hotbed for the Church of
Christ.
How are y'all going to do that?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (07:18):
I mean it is a huge responsibility, I mean
it's one that seems very holy,and you look at it and you just
wonder, okay, so how can we dothis?
And pretty early on, after DrLaird and I got started with
this, both of us felt convictedabout a couple of things.
One is that we should notassume that we know what the
(07:42):
churches need, I mean just froma basic standpoint.
We cannot assume that weunderstand their situation.
And the second thing we becameconvicted about is that we need
to pour into the leaders of thechurches and help them grow and
develop.
And what we've done is we'vetried to identify some people
that are regional leaders andthat definitely have connections
(08:08):
and already have respect withthe different churches there,
and so we're gathering them upfirst to try to find out exactly
what is needed in these areasand get advice and get a better
picture of what's happening.
And then we're going to extendfrom there of what we're
attempting to do and, lordwilling, with a lot of prayer
(08:29):
and God's guidance, we might beable to do this.
But we would like to startsomething that is grassroots,
that will last longer than thegrant, and so we have about four
years left on the grant.
But this work, this doesn'tneed to end in four years.
The churches need to have animpact much beyond that, and so
that's what we're attempting todo, and we also think that if
(08:52):
there's greater connectionbetween the congregations in
these areas, as they're facingthings that are similar, if that
connection and thatconversation is established and
they're used to having thoseconversations with each other,
that they can help each otherbrainstorm to try to find
(09:12):
solutions, and so that I thinkthat's important.
I'm also beginning work on whatwe're referring to as kind of a
women's council to try to helpme identify needs of the women
in the region, and this is goingto be made up of women who are
active in their churches.
Not all of them will beprofessionally in ministry,
because a lot of these churchesdon't even have a full-time
preacher, and so there are a fewthat are larger that might have
(09:35):
a woman on staff, but we'regoing to be exploring what is
needed among the women.
But one of the big issues for ushas been trying to locate
churches.
As you probably know, theChurches of Christ in the United
States book is very out of date, and then there's a new group
that's come along that refers tothemselves as a church research
(09:57):
council that is trying to gettogether a list so that we can
find churches, and so we'reexcited about that.
But we're also having our ownconversations and doing our own
research to try to locate thechurches in our region so we can
reach out to them.
But just to kind of put a plugin for that effort with the
Church Research Council, I wouldjust encourage churches to fill
(10:18):
that out so that churches canfind each other.
I think that's important.
Another thing that we're tryingto do is Dr Laird is actually
developing shepherdingconferences Now he's been doing
these for a long time.
He's done four or five, and theones he's been doing are
multi-day events, but what he'sdeveloping are eight one-day
(10:39):
events.
These are going to float aroundour region and we're hoping
that this will help encourageand train shepherds.
And then we're also going tohave something for shepherds'
wives, and so that's also aneffort.
He is looking for hostcongregations and we're also
still seeking some support forthose, and so with this and then
(11:00):
other things that we're tryingto do, we're going to have
different cohorts that are goingto zero in on specific needs.
I'm in conversation with aprofessor right now who is going
to be doing a cohort calledThrive.
That's basically looking athelping people who are
experiencing compassion, fatigueor burnout, and so that's
(11:21):
something that we're going to beoffering.
That's probably going to startup in January.
We're still trying to figureout details, but we're doing
something called a layeringapproach that's how we're
referring to it, as Because wedon't believe one size fits all
we want to make sure that wehave lots of options for
different people to get the typeof training or encouragement
(11:43):
that they need.
And then, once we get a lot ofcohorts started and so we're
targeting having about 10different cohorts and we're
going to allow these largergroups of ministers and people
who are already very active intheir regions to help inform
who's going to be in them, helpus start them.
But once these are started,then, as they see a need, we're
(12:07):
going to contact somebody whocan provide for that need,
somebody that has the expertisein that area.
BT Irwin (12:13):
So when I think of a rural or small town Church of
Christ congregations and I visita lot of them all the time as I
preach and teach here and there, and those are my roots I think
conservative, and I mean thatin the best way the belief that
some things are essential or ifnot essential, at least worth
(12:34):
conserving and that we should becareful, slow, thoughtful about
change.
So I reckon perceptions aboutchange could be the point of
friction for the work you mightbe setting out to do with rural
and small town congregations.
How much change do you think isactually necessary for Church
of Christ congregations to growand thrive again in rural and
(12:56):
small towns, and what kind ofchange and how might you help
change averse or change cautiouscongregations, ease their way
into it?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (13:04):
Well, it's kind of interesting when you
think about change because everysingle person has a different
tolerance level for it.
So somebody might pursue changejust because they like to keep
things interesting.
Somebody else's kind of gutlevel reaction to it could be
pushing back on it.
So when we talk about change incongregations, I think a lot of
times we're not specifyingexactly what we're talking about
(13:25):
.
So when we talk about change incongregations, I think a lot of
times we're not specifyingexactly what we're talking about
.
So if we're resisting change,does that mean across the board?
Are we not going to changeanything that we're doing, the
way we're reaching out?
Of course there's been a lot ofdiscussion over the years about
song choice in church and howwe construct some of those
(13:45):
things.
But change in and of itself, ifwe're just going to look at it
not in specifics but justgenerally, change is necessary.
When the world is changing,we've got to figure out new
solutions to new problems andthe discomfort that comes with
change isn't necessarily a badthing.
(14:07):
I mean, I think if we were allbeing honest with ourselves, the
times where we grew the mostwere times when something was
new, where we had to stretchourselves.
Kent Brantley, the Ebola doctor,if you may remember him from a
number of years ago.
But when he came and spoke onetime he said that in the United
(14:29):
States our God is comfort and Ithought that is such an
interesting perspective and I'venever forgotten that and we,
truly, we enjoy beingcomfortable.
If you just think about how weconstruct our lives, we want to
be comfortable, we want thingsto just stay in that state, but
is that going to overrule theother good things that could be
(14:50):
done?
And I've thought about that alot.
I've shared that with mystudents.
I've also think about it whenI'm in situations that might not
be the most comfortable, butI'm doing something that I
really feel like is pursuing theLord's work.
Then you know we've got to pushourselves.
We can't just stay stagnant.
So when it comes to the smalland rural churches, especially
(15:14):
the ones that are notexperiencing a lot of growth,
that have little to no, few tono families in them, then
something's got to change.
I mean, this is all hands ondeck at this point and in some
of these situations we've got toscramble and churches need to
figure out how to reach out tothe younger population and
(15:37):
really show to them reallydemonstrate that they care about
what they're going through, andthat's going to be pushing
themselves.
It's going to be change.
I grew up in Northeast Oklahomaand I remember when the Joy Bus
was a big thing and we actuallywere running two different Joy
Buses and we had all these kidscoming and it was wonderful.
(15:58):
It was great, but it createdchange and you heard all types
of stories about differentchurches that had all these kids
coming.
What a wonderful problem, butit created change.
The classrooms became moreunruly, carpets got messed up.
You know there were things thathappened and but still like
(16:19):
that's uncomfortable.
So we don't want to like makeour God comfort, we want to push
ourselves.
BT Irwin (16:25):
As you were talking, I was thinking a little bit about
politics and I don't like tobring in politics this is not
going where people think it isbut there has been discussion in
our nation lately about inpolitics, the oldest people have
all the power and there needsto be a making way for younger
(16:47):
generations to take their ownhand at governing in our country
.
And as I'm about to turn 50this year, I've said a lot to
people recently I don't feellike I'm about to turn 50.
I still feel like I'm 25.
I don't think of myself asmidlife 50.
I still feel like I'm 25.
I don't think of myself asmidlife.
I think of myself as young andstarting out.
(17:08):
And so, on the one hand, whenyou talked about people in these
congregations being over theage of 50, I think a lot of us
who are over the age of 50 don'tknow that we're over the age of
50.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (17:21):
Yeah, I always forget my age.
BT Irwin (17:23):
Yeah, we don't want to believe it.
We still feel young, we stillfeel like we're starting out,
and so maybe we're not thinkingin terms of getting out of the
way or at least reaching downand pulling up younger
generations into leadership.
So, as you were talking, I wasjust thinking is a disconnect
(17:44):
between generations one of theroot causes of congregational
decline?
Because as we get older, wecan't let go and we won't let go
and we're not thinking we needto share this congregation with
the generations coming up behindus.
That's just not even on ourmind.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (18:03):
Yeah, I would say definitely, and one of
the things that happened,especially when we're looking at
young families, is the way theyview time and events is
different and this kind ofchurch there's sports, there's
kids activities, and they're onthe same level.
BT Irwin (18:34):
Yeah.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (18:35):
And so when they're trying to pick and
choose, they're all good things,you know they're good things,
but some families may be viewingthem as equal, and so I feel
like that's something that wedefinitely need to address.
But I know, with the women'sministry that I was working with
before we moved, one of thethings that we really tried to
(18:57):
do was really pursue the youngerfamilies and try to get them
involved with what we were doing, and so we would try to
incorporate the young mothers,we would try to reach out to
their kids, and so if we had awomen's event, we would try to
get some of those kids to readscripture and things like that
(19:18):
at the event.
So we really need to show themthat they're needed, and I think
that we probably need to go alittle bit overboard with that.
I'm always thinking about thesituation that came up in Acts
with the Grecian widows thatwere overlooked in the
distribution of food.
That is such a beautiful,beautiful example of how to
(19:38):
handle something that comes upBecause the early church didn't
say okay, we're going to fixthis, we're going to go 50-50.
Okay, we're going to fix this,we're going to go 50-50.
They pursued these women bychoosing seven men who spoke
Greek, and we need to go all outin trying to reach the younger
generation and try to reachthose families and bring them in
.
And part of that is also sayinghey, we need you, we need your
(20:02):
skills, we need your input, weneed your wisdom and you have
something to offer and reallyjust show them that, show them
how important they are.
BT Irwin (20:12):
I'm glad you brought up the thing about time with
church, youth, sports, that kindof thing.
It reminded me that my wife,who's about my age, of course,
and she's a senior leader at anorganization I don't think about
40 people, work for herdirectly and one of the hard
adjustments for her as she'smoved up the ladder into senior
(20:34):
management has been thatmillennials, in particular,
she's told me, millennials,expect to be involved in
decision making and know what'sgoing on in a way that, like Gen
X, my generation, my wife'sgeneration and then our parents,
did not expect.
And so, working with millennialsin her workplace, it's like
(20:56):
they want to be in the roomwhere it happens to follow a
line from Hamilton, and so whenyou were talking about how
younger generations think abouttime, I was also thinking that
the generations that tend tolead congregations now come from
much more of a hierarchicalworldview, whereas these younger
(21:18):
generations expect to beinvolved almost immediately and
to know everything that's goingon, and so when they feel shut
out, when they feel left out ofthose things, then they don't
hang around, they go somewhereelse, and what you just said
reminded me of that.
One of your areas of experienceand expertise is Christian
(21:40):
discipleship among women.
You've brought it up a couple oftimes here and getting ready
for this interview actuallysurprised me.
When I look back at all of thechurch growth or church health
experts that we've had on thisshow, or when I try to think of
all the church growth or churchhealth experts that I know they
are all men and I'll add to thatI've been in plenty of
(22:02):
congregations that held theirown without men serving as
elders or preachers, but I'venever been in a congregation
that could hold its own withoutwomen.
That's coming from the grandsonand the son of a conservative
church Christ preacher and I cantell you in our family we have
always believed that women arethe backbone and central nervous
system of a healthy localcongregation.
(22:22):
Yet most of our church growthand church health stuff at least
that I've consumed over thelast 20, 30, 40 years seems to
focus the most on men and whatthey're doing.
So as you enter your new rolewith the Center for Ministry,
how will you put forth thegrowth of girls and women as
(22:43):
crucial and essential to thegrowth and health of rural and
small town congregations?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (22:48):
Yeah Well, I appreciate you sharing those
observations with me.
I've had a number of preachersover the years say something
very similar.
I had a prominent preacher onetime say that if you want to
know who's really running theevents at church, drop by my
building during the week andyou're going to see it full of
women that are busy doing things.
(23:09):
So women are very important andkind of like you mentioned
about the millennials, they wantto be heard, and this is
something that I found veryinteresting because being heard
and being a part of thedecision-making is so important
to them.
I have seen churches that havemade moves to try to have more
(23:31):
public roles for women but havenot involved them in decision
making, and that's really whatthey're craving is to be heard
and to be able to make an impactin their church.
So I'm glad you brought thatout, but I wanted to add that on
that is similar with women, aswith millennials, and so with
the center, one of the thingsthat we are committed to is
(23:54):
trying to help both men andwomen in their roles and
preparing to help their churchesand preparing for ministry in
whatever capacity that they aregoing to be a part of it.
And, like for my background ofcoming from that small church in
Northeast Oklahoma, mygrandmother I had two
(24:15):
grandmothers that were veryinvolved in church.
One of them was a long-termmissionary, the other one was a
volunteer and did so manydifferent things, so I had some
great examples.
I didn't have to look very farfor mentors my mom was a Bible
class teacher and so that wasreally helpful.
But trying to encourage churchesto use the women that they have
(24:38):
and have them invest into thatnext generation of women and
mentor them, I think that'sreally important From the
situation where we are right nowin society, and especially in
these smaller and rural churches, because we need everybody.
We just do not have the luxuryI don't know that we ever really
(24:59):
had this luxury, but we do nothave the luxury of only going
and utilizing half of ourcongregation, of only going and
utilizing half of ourcongregation.
We really do need every personin our churches to view their
life as ministry and try tofigure out how to use the gifts
that God has given them.
And I mean take a look atwhat's happening often in our
(25:19):
society, different issues thatcome up.
If we're really going to makean impact, then we've got to
think about how to use everymember of our congregation, even
the kids, like even encouragingthem.
We need absolutely everybody todeal with some of the things
that we're facing right now, andso what we're going to try to
do is we're going to providetraining and we're going to
(25:43):
incorporate that into our events, into our offerings.
I'm looking at starting somethings on the campus of York,
working with some of thestudents there who are
interested in going out andserving.
We're going to be trying tohelp women get placed in
internships and I don't know howchallenging this is going to be
(26:04):
up here, because it's a littleeasier in the South, you know
but we're going to try to helpthem get those opportunities and
it could be that that we'll betrying to place some in the
South as well and some of theSouthern churches.
So if you have internshippossibilities for students,
please send it my direction andI'll try to see if I can get
somebody connected to that, seeif I can get somebody connected
(26:30):
to that, but also just trying toencourage churches to help
women discover who they are.
One of the things that is anissue a lot of times is that
women do not see themselves asplaying a crucial role, and I
remember nobody said this.
Okay, so I'm going to tell astory on myself, but no one said
this to me.
But when I was at school, Iprepared the best I could for
(26:54):
the mission field.
I took the classes, I did thetraining, I went to the
conferences, I did all of it.
But in my heart of hearts, Ireally believed that my husband
would be the one to answer thehard questions.
As soon as we got to the missionfield, one of the things that I
discovered was that that justwasn't the case.
(27:14):
So we're going to distinguishbetween him and me and so
helping women really take theirface seriously, because a lot of
times we're going to be insituations and we're going to be
the ones that are called uponto answer those tough questions.
It could come from kids, itcould come from somebody at
school, it could come fromsomebody at work, but we all
(27:36):
need to be prepared to answer.
We need to be prepared toanswer those questions, and so
that's really important.
So those, and then we're alsowe're going to have a retreat
for women who are working inministry, and then we're
developing some ministers'wives' retreats, because we
believe that the wives ofministers are so important, and
(27:59):
if the wife gets burnt out,sometimes the husband ends up
leaving ministry to focus on hisfamily.
So we're going to do our bestto try to encourage them as well
.
BT Irwin (28:09):
I reckon the vast majority of all church growth
and church health, articles andbooks and programs of maybe the
last 50 to 100 years in theChurch of Christ came from men,
and so I want to ask what mightwe be missing?
By having such a male-dominatedschool of thought on how the
church grows and thrives?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (28:31):
Yeah, well , first of all, there's
something that's a little bitdifferent with female spiritual
development from men's spiritualdevelopment, and it could be
because of what we're doing,because of our focus on men.
But we have these younger boysthat have opportunities early on
, which is wonderful.
(28:51):
I'm 110% behind this.
Okay, so this is great.
However, a lot of times, theyounger women do not have the
same type of focus, and so whatends up happening is, as they're
sitting there, I mean,basically they become observers.
So when we put them into thatposition, we're not energizing
(29:15):
them for growth.
Women have so many gifts and, aswe talked about previously, one
of the things that we see isthat women are so active in
churches.
See, is that women are soactive in churches, and so we
need to be encouraging that, butnot only encouraging it, but
also holding it up and showingthat it really is.
(29:35):
It's making a difference,encouraging people to work
within their gift set.
I think that's really important.
When it comes to men, hopefully, there's some sort of you sort
of distinction between who'sgood at what.
It could be not a man, so maybeyou all feel that you're kind
of pushed into the same moldsometimes, but in some churches,
(29:58):
women are pushed into the samemold and like, for example, what
are the options here?
You can help with the potluckor you can teach children's
classes, and we overlook a lotof the other opportunities that
might show up in outreach ordifferent parts of the church.
If a woman has leadershipskills in her school, where
(30:19):
she's a teacher, how could achurch utilize those?
If a woman has financial skills, if she's in that field, how
could she be of assistance tothe church?
And I know that's a biggerconversation.
But, like, exactly what do theyhave to offer?
And we're going to have tothink and be creative of how to
use it, because we do, we'remissing out on those when we're
(30:39):
not incorporating them.
And then, if women don't have anactive role or a planning role,
there's one specific area that,for whatever reason, women
often end up being involved in,and that is reaching out to
visitors.
You know.
So, like those types ofoutreaches, I believe that women
(31:00):
are natural connectors.
They're really good at watchingout for other people.
They have those nurturingskills and those nurturing
abilities and there's somediscussion about is that because
of childbearing, becausethey're formed for childbearing?
That could be the case.
I don't know, but it does pop upa lot, and so women they're the
(31:23):
glue.
They're the glue to a churchand really help the church stay
connected in a way that'sspecial.
So when we're not focusing onthem and when their voice isn't
heard, especially when it comesto planning, then we may be
losing out of incorporating someof those things that they have
(31:43):
to offer into that.
The other thing.
So if this was a podcast aboutpreparing preachers for ministry
, one of the things I would havesaid would be okay, listen to
your wives, because they haveantennas and they pick up on
things, and women seem to have areally strong sense of
discernment, and so when we'renot listening to them and
(32:06):
incorporating them, we're losingout on that as well.
BT Irwin (32:09):
When you were talking about the church, we make these
assumptions about people.
We treat women as monoliths andmen as monoliths, that because
they're a man or a woman, theymust be good at this and not
that.
And so when you're talkingabout the girls being observers,
I thought it's because if wedon't actually know the people
in our congregations and howthey're gifted as individuals,
(32:32):
then we'll never be able to callout those gifts and call them
to use them in the body ofChrist.
I do want to ask though maybeyou already answered this
question but what attributes ofwomen make them specially fit
for making disciples?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (32:50):
I want to point out that some of the men
in congregations are alsoobservers.
BT Irwin (32:56):
Yeah.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (32:56):
So they don't have a chance when we're
overemphasizing that one hour.
If they don't have public gifts, then they may not be utilized
either.
So this is really thisparticular issue definitely
spans across both genders, kindof as you brought up too.
But as far as what attributesof women really really gift them
for making disciples at thefirst one and let's keep an open
(33:20):
mind when I say this one so andthat is shepherding.
So this is not saying thatthey're elders, but it's the
gift of shepherding, if youliterally think about what that
looks like, where somebody istaking care of a flock of people
.
This pops up a lot on spiritualgift inventories, and so I've
actually had to answer thisquestion quite a bit, because
(33:41):
women will get this gift andthey'll say, okay, what is going
on here?
Because I am not an elder, Iwill not be an elder.
But what does this mean?
And I'll ask questions likewhen you go to church, do you
notice who's there, who isn'tthere?
Do you follow up on people?
If somebody has a prayerrequest in Bible class, do you
check on them later to see howthey're doing?
(34:02):
I mean, somebody that's goingto do that is going to have that
gift, and so they're very goodat that, they're going to go out
of their way to do it.
A lot of times they don't haveas many social concerns, I would
say they're the ones that arechatting after church, checking
in on people and things likethat.
It seems like I'm the lastperson to leave the building a
(34:24):
lot of times because I'm talkingto people, and a lot of other
women are like that too.
And then, of course, like wetalked about before, connecting
being able to help peopleconnect whether that's somebody
that visits the church, and if achurch out there has a women's
ministry this is something thatcould be good for them to get
involved with is basically whatis our follow-up process when
(34:47):
somebody comes to visit?
Is that something that they canassist with too?
Kind of coming up with ideas onhow to handle it, or connecting
different groups within thechurch, trying to keep open eyes
to see who's not involved.
I believe that involvementministries would be it would be
really wise for them toincorporate women into it,
(35:08):
because they do reach out prettynaturally to other people and
then, like you mentioned, tryingto figure out what people's
gifting are.
It's like what is that Like?
What are they good at?
How do we use them in thechurch.
And then the big thing, I thinkand this could be true for both
men and women, but I reallyfeel like women get into a lot
(35:29):
of circles pretty naturally inthe community and if we could
just really help them see howimportant that is and I don't
know if the listeners out thereare familiar with missional
churches or missional thinking,but basically what that is is,
as you're out in the community,you keep your eyes open to see
(35:50):
what's happening.
What are the needs?
And I'm putting this verysimply, but basically, what are
the needs?
Do we see God opening up a doorthat hasn't been opened up
before?
And how are we going to meetthat need?
And so women, as they're goingabout and they're interacting
(36:11):
with different people at work ordifferent community
organizations, they are verywell equipped to hear the needs
of people, be able to identifythose, and then you're creative
with how to meet that need.
Now I would say that, as thisis happening, I'm sure this
isn't just a Church of Christproblem, but we tend to
overthink things.
Let's spend a year trying tocome up with a perfect plan, but
(36:35):
with this type of approach, weneed to just come up with
something that we think mightwork and experiment, to just
give ourselves permission to tryit out.
And then communication isanother one that I think of.
And then we've also mentionedpicking up on things, dynamics
or potential issues that otherpeople may not pick up on.
You know, those are someattributes that come to mind.
BT Irwin (36:57):
My, my degree is in marketing and you know, those
are some attributes that come tomind.
My degree is in marketing andone of the things about
marketing is there's somethingcalled propensity marketing,
which basically means it's a loteasier to ride a wave than to
make a wave.
So a really good marketer knowshow to spot a wave building and
grab their surfboard and ride onthat wave rather than try to
(37:18):
make waves.
And a lot of churches, I think,are trying to make waves, and
so what you're saying is thatwomen in particular may be very
well attuned to the waves.
That are building theircommunities, and so they can be
the ones who say let's grab ourboard and catch a wave.
Yeah, men may want to makewaves, right.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (37:41):
Yeah.
BT Irwin (37:42):
But those waves that are already building in the
community are where you see Godat work.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (37:47):
Yes.
I mean God's amazing.
Some of the doors that he canopen up, walls he can bring down
, I mean he's at work.
We've got to believe that Godis at work in our communities.
We just need to look and seewhat he's up to.
My husband and I we weremissionaries in Hungary.
In the mid-90s is when we movedover and as we were working
(38:08):
with people, they would tell usstories sometimes about how they
didn't have anybody in theirfamily that believed in God,
except for maybe a grandmother,but it wasn't like an active
part of their life, but theyknew he was there.
Then they would cite differentthings that happened.
They felt like God was tryingto reach them or guide them and
it was really interestingbecause at the time a lot of
(38:31):
different people were sayinglet's take God to Eastern Europe
.
God was already in EasternEurope and we have to believe
that God is at work in ourcommunities.
We just need to figure out whathe's up to.
We need to keep our eyes openand women I mean especially
equipped to be out there andkind of keep those feelers out.
BT Irwin (38:54):
Yeah, agreed, agreed.
I was thinking a little bitabout how in my life, in
community development work andin congregations, there are
certain groups of people thatthere's a power dynamic in play
here and more privileges isoften an assumption that I don't
think they even recognize inthemselves, that they have
(39:21):
nothing to learn from those whohave less power or less
privileges.
I could give you specificexamples but I won't right now.
So in the Church of Christ inparticular, where men do the
preaching and the teaching andthe eldering, I feel like there
can become this it may besubconscious assumption among
(39:43):
men that they have nothing tolearn from women, that they
cannot be taught by women, and,if I'm picking up what you're
putting down, as girls grow upin that and women grow up in
that, that leads to it could bea subconscious belief that they
have nothing to teach men intheir congregation.
(40:06):
And so I'm just wondering howwould our churches be different
if we listened to girls andwomen more, If we believed we
had something to learn from themand we want to be taught by
them?
How would that change thechurch?
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (40:24):
Yeah, well , first of all, let me say that
we really we need to recognizethat we can learn from anybody
and maybe, by human nature,maybe we're trying to preserve
our sense of self-worth, but wetend to think that just because
I'm X or just because I havethis training, I can't learn
from somebody who doesn't havewhat I have.
(40:46):
Where I can have a conversationwith somebody with no college
degree maybe they've got aneighth grade education and
that's it and this person couldbe gifted by God with the
spiritual gift of wisdom andreally speak something to me and
into my life that I need tolearn.
One of the uncomfortablethoughts that I often have and
(41:10):
this pops up when I was teachingin New Testament and Old
Testament especially is whenJesus and God would interact
with people and would sendpeople.
If you think about the prophets, I mean, it's not like these
guys were YouTube stars orsomebody that was really
attractive.
I mean, some of them were justflat out weird, you know, and
(41:32):
that was who God wanted thepeople to listen to, and so when
I think about that, I thought,okay, so if God was trying to
get our attention today and hesent us somebody that was
outside the norm.
That was not somebody that waspopular, not somebody that was
attractive.
Bible says, you know, jesuswasn't an attractive person.
(41:55):
His personality, I believe, wasprobably very magnetic.
I believe his love for peopleoozed out of him.
But if they're not fitting whatwe believe an influencer should
look like, like what if he wastrying to speak to us through
something like that?
So through someone like that,then would we listen?
(42:16):
And so I really think, on abroader level, we need to be
challenging ourselves to learnand listen to different people,
and you know so when it comes towomen, if women would have a
chance to really share theirperspective and share their
(42:37):
point of view, that is somethingthat is rich, and one of my
favorite Bible classes that I'veever attended was one that had
a number of people throughoutthe class, from all different
fields, share how they viewed aparticular section of scripture.
Every single one of them viewedit from a different lens, and
that made the scripture richer.
(42:58):
So when we listen to women andlisten to their perspectives and
what they see, that is going tomake what we're doing.
That will make scriptureChristian life.
All of it will be richer, and Ibelieve we would be more
compassionate.
Women tend to be compassionateand kind of rush in and get
(43:18):
involved with situations.
That's something else that wehaven't really discussed, but
yeah, I think that's important.
BT Irwin (43:27):
Well, dr Anessa Westbrook is the new
co-executive director of theCenter for Ministry at York
University.
If you are listening to this,in the American heartland, the
Midwest, the Great Plains, theRocky Mountain states, she and
the team at the Center forMinistry are there to be a
resource for you as you seekgrowth and health in your local
(43:49):
congregations.
We'll put links in the shownotes to the Center for Ministry
so you can get in contact withthem.
Dr Westbrook, thank you forbeing our guest today.
Dr. Anessa Westbrook (43:57):
Thank you so much for having me.
BT Irwin (43:59):
It's been a pleasure.
We hope something you heard inthis episode encouraged,
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If it did, thanks be to God andplease pay it forward.
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(44:20):
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of Christ congregations, membersand ministries around the world
since 1943.
The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Calvin
(45:03):
Cockrell, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and president and CEO
Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle iswritten, directed, hosted and
edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan at
Podcast your Voice Studios inthe Motor City, detroit,
michigan, usa.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
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