Episode 141: How do we know if it's really spiritual warfare? (Dr. Joe Beam)

"Spiritual warfare" seems to be on the lips and minds of many Christ-claimers in the United States these days, including those in the Church of Christ.

But what is "spiritual warfare" and how do we know that we're waging it?

Dr. Joe Beam, who wrote the landmark book Seeing the Unseen: A Handbook for Spiritual Warfare in the early 1990s, joins the present-day milieu on how the spirit realm is affecting current events and vice versa.

In this episode, Beam answers questions like:

• What might be contributing to what could be an increase in "spiritual warfare" talk in the United States these days?
• What is the difference between demon-possessed and demonized?
• Does demon-possession still happen today (and how do we know if someone is demon-possessed)?
• How do we know if we're being "attacked" by evil spiritual forces or if we're creating our own negative circumstances or situations?
• How do we know if God is communicating with us or if we're just having strong feelings that come from ourselves?
• How do we know if someone is "speaking for God"?
• For Church of Christ congregations that have to come to believe that the Holy Spirit is available to guide and support them, how do they learn to discern and follow the Holy Spirit?
• How do we "test the spirits" (1 John 4:1)? 

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:03):
Family and friends, neighbors, and most of all,
strangers, welcome to theChristian Chronicle Podcast.
We're bringing you the storiesshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
I'm B.
T.
Early.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
Growing up in a conservativeChurch of Christ community in
small town Middle America in the1980s and 1990s, we didn't seem

(00:26):
to give much thought to whatI'll call the spirit realm.
When we did use terms likespiritual, it was mostly in
reference to people who weremore devoted to church life or
to practicing personal morality.
In our particular Church ofChrist context at the time, I
don't know that we consideredthat the Holy Spirit could be
active and working in the livesof quote-unquote spiritual
people, as much as we thoughtthey were just better

(00:48):
practitioners and students ofthe Bible, which came to us from
the Holy Spirit a long, longtime ago.
I'm putting it this way becausein my Church of Christ circles,
we were cessationists, that's aterm I didn't know back then but
learned in recent years.
The root word of cessationist iscease, as in, the Holy Spirit
ceased to be present andproactive as a force, directing

(01:10):
and leading the Church of Christonce the last page of the Bible
was written before the end ofthe first century.
Alexander Campbell, perhaps themost influential teacher and
thinker among Church of Christmembers, taught this in the 19th
century, and it became doctrinefor most Church of Christ folks
by the 20th century.
The belief that the Holy Spiritleft the scene once the Church

(01:30):
had a Bible for direction andguidance may have also led
Church of Christ folks toabandon the belief that they had
anything to do with a spiritualrealm at all.
But in 1993, a book came outthat became a sensation among
Church of Christ folks all overthe world.
Seeing the Unseen by Dr.
Joe Beam seemed to beeverywhere.
My classmates at HardingUniversity read and talked about

(01:52):
it.
Several Church of Christcongregations I attended, as far
north as Ohio and as far southas Mississippi, hosted Dr.
Beam for Seeing the Unseenconferences.
The book led me and so manyother Church of Christ folks to
a radical reconsideration ofspirituality.
Dr.
Beam interpreted the Bible in away that kindled our imagination
of a spiritual realm that isactive and present in our

(02:14):
day-to-day lives and the worldat large.
Suddenly the folks in my Churchof Christ circles were talking
about angels, demons, andspiritual warfare, not as
legends and myths from biblicalantiquity, but as present
realities that affect what ishappening in our lives here and
now.
Seeing the Unseen came out at atime when believers and seekers
on every branch of the Christianfamily tree in the global north

(02:36):
and west seemed to have agrowing fascination with the
spiritual realm.
Frank Peretti's This PresentDarkness, published in 1986,
sold millions of copies.
Books like Beams and Peretti'shelped bring ideas that were
once part of charismaticChristianity into mainstream
Christianity and even to theChurch of Christ.
I'll never forget my surprisewhen I found out that my mom,

(02:58):
the conservative wife of aconservative Church of Christ
preacher, enjoyed readingPeretti's work.
She's the reason I read it too.
So Joe Beams Seeing the Unseenmet the moment when Church of
Christ folks were getting morecurious about the spiritual
realm than they had been ingenerations.
Since then, interest in thespiritual realm has only grown
among Christ believers ingeneral and perhaps Church of

(03:20):
Christ folks in particular, andso has interest in spiritual
warfare, bleeding over from popChristianity into American
politics, where it gets lacedwith ideology and bleeds back
over into the church as astrange amalgam.
One of the most alarming orexciting developments of our
time, depending on how you seeit, is the belief among some
American Christ claimers thatpolitics is spiritual warfare.

(03:44):
In some cases, that has ledChrist claimers to break the law
or take violent and even deadlyaction against those they
perceive to be agents of darkspiritual powers.
For example, many of those whoattacked the U.S.
Capitol on January 6, 2021,claimed to be doing so as an act
of spiritual warfare.
And the man who murdered aMinnesota state legislator and
her husband, and attempted tomurder two others on June 14,

(04:07):
2025, may have believed that hewas engaging in a spiritual
battle against the forces ofevil.
We're recording this episodejust a few weeks after an
assassin murdered popularpolitical activist Charlie Kirk,
who many Christ claimers in theUnited States revere.
In the days following his death,many of those Christ claimers
framed his murder as a casualtyof a spiritual war.

(04:28):
All of this got me thinkingabout Seeing the Unseen by Dr.
Joe Beam.
It's been a while since I readthe book, so I reached out to
Dr.
Beam, and he's here with ustoday.
Dr.
Joe Beam is, of course, theauthor of Seeing the Unseen.
He's a best-selling author often books, in fact, most of them
on family marriage and sex.
After serving as a Church ofChrist minister for several
years, Dr.
Beam established the FamilyDynamics Institute in 1994.

(04:50):
He went on to establish LovePath International in 2008 and
Marriage Helper in 2014.
These days, he blogs, hostsmarriage seminars, and makes
appearances on both Christianand mainstream news programs
like this one.
Dr.
Beam, it's good to have you withus.
Well, thank you, BT.

SPEAKER_01 (05:06):
I really appreciate the invitation.
Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
Yeah, this is a long coming time and coming.
I one of the landmark moments inmy life was when you published
Seeing the Unseen back in 1993,I believe.
And I remember going to 94, theyear I graduated from high
school.
And I remember going to uhseveral workshops in several

(05:30):
different states where you werethe headliner talking about
seeing the unseen.
So it's been 31 years.
How have you perceived howChurch of Christ folks relate to
the book after three decades?

SPEAKER_01 (05:44):
Well, it's an interesting thing of all the
books that I've written.
That's the one that continues touh be bought.
And I continue to get uhmessages from people that this
church just had a class on it,or this person just read it and
helped them deal with aparticular issue.
And so it just fascinates methat after three decades, people
are still using that book.
I'm I'm amazed by that.

SPEAKER_00 (06:10):
And my feeling is that uh seeing the unseen landed
among Church of Christ folkslike me at a time when the
larger Christian culture andeven American pop culture was
entering into a new fascinationwith the spirit realm.
So, uh, using your hindsight,what do you think God might have
been up to in the time leadingup to seeing the unseen and

(06:34):
since then?

SPEAKER_01 (06:37):
Well, I had had a period in my life that was
pretty bad.
And I had left my wife andfamily back in 1984 and uh lived
a very godless lifestyle.
And in 1987, finally got my lifestraight again, asked Alice, my
wife, if she would marry meagain, and she did.
And so we remarried in 1987.

(07:00):
And early 90s, it was a bookthat came out called what was
the name of this book?
It was a it was about angels,this present darkness.
That was the name of the book.
And so I read that book, thatnovel, and it was a novel, and
and I knew therefore it hadseveral theological issues, but
it it it didn't really matterbecause it was a novel, it

(07:21):
wasn't a Bible study.
But it made me start thinking,you know, when I was doing all
those bad things, I take fullresponsibility uh for my
godlessness, I take fullresponsibility for the
everything that I did.
But I got to wondering, hmm, andand that book made me start
wondering.
I wonder if I had any help, ifthere were any spiritual issues

(07:43):
involved.
And so I actually sat down andwrote a list of questions.
And then I decided I'm gonnalook up and research in my Bible
and find the answers to thesequestions if I can.
And so each question became achapter, and and that's how the
book was done.
And when Howard Books, which isnow a division of uh Simon and

(08:03):
Schuster, but back then whenHoward Books approached me and
asked me if I would write a bookon it, I said, Well, no, I
really want to write a book ongrace, because I've been
forgiven and gotten all thisgrace and mercy, and that's what
I want to write about.
And they said, Okay, we'll giveyou the opportunity to write
that book if you write the bookon spiritual warfare first.

(08:26):
Well, I'd already been outliningthose chapters or writing those
chapters.
And so I took that, and that'show it came to be.
And and the timing was reallyinteresting.
For example, and and if this isoff-based, then please forgive
me.
But around 1990, there were veryfew Catholic priests who were

(08:46):
ordained to be exorcists.
Not just any Catholic priest cando that.
They have to have certaintraining, and then they can't do
it even then without permissionof their bishop.
And around 1990, there were sofew in America because they
didn't need many, because notmuch was happening.
Now, in the Catholic Church, ifthey think you might be
demon-possessed, it's notbecause of the fact that you

(09:07):
have schizophrenia.
I mean, they have some criteriasuch as you can levitate or you
have um knowledge of thingsthere's no way you could have
knowledge of, like speak alanguage that hasn't been spoken
for a thousand years, that kindof thing.
And so if they say you'redemon-possessed, they have
researched it thoroughly.
And the closer we got to themillennium, the closer we got to

(09:28):
the year 2000, all of a sudden,they didn't have an effector
system.
And they were meeting all thesepeople that by their criteria,
which was pretty stringent, thatthese people were
demon-possessed, or at leastdemonized.
And if we wish, we can talkabout the difference in those
two later.
And and so I got to thinking,you know, since the devil

(09:49):
doesn't know when the world isgoing to end, and there were a
lot of people predicting that itwas going to be about the year
2000.
You may remember how manyevangelists on television were
saying everything's going tocome to an end because of Y2K
and all that kind of stuff.
And this is the judgment daycoming.
Well, because the devil doesn'tknow when that's going to be.
Jesus said that, because thedevil does know when that's

(10:11):
going to happen.
And I got to thinking, maybe,just maybe.
That's why all of a sudden we'reseeing all this increase in
spiritual activity, because ofthe fact that maybe, you know,
what if these televisiontelevangelists are right?
And so a lot of things startedhappening, big time things.

(10:31):
And so it was about the righttime to be published.
And so I'd like to believe thatby the providence of God, that
the book came out at the righttime for the right people.

SPEAKER_00 (10:41):
You said we could talk about this a little more,
demon-possessed versusdemonized.
I'm sure somebody listening intheir car right now wants to
know the difference betweenthose two things.

SPEAKER_01 (10:50):
Well, of course, when you were in the New
Testament about demonpossession, they had full and
complete control of that humanbeing's body.
So that they would throw them inthe person they were in into the
fire or cut themselves or thosekinds of things because they had
full possession.
And so demon possession, thedemon or demons, because as we
know from the time when Jesusquestioned that one where the

(11:12):
where the swine were, that therewere at least 2,000 inside that
guy.
And so the demon or demons wouldtake control, complete control
of the person.
Demonize is a phrase that's kindof been coined from reading
Ephesians, where he talks aboutdon't give the devil a foothold.
Now, I'm certainly not a Greekscholar.
Okay.
I took a Euro Greek when I wasin college, but I don't remember

(11:35):
any of it.
So I'm not a Greek scholar.
And I had to go back and look upthat word.
And when it says don't give thedevil a foothold, I think that's
the King James Version.
It was a word that originallymeant scabbard, a place where
you put your sword, and thenover time it evolved into a
place that was a chink in yourarmor.

(11:56):
Like, okay, I can get you rightthere.
You're armored otherwise, butright there is a place where I
can get my sword into you.
And if you look at the contextof that BT, right in the context
of saying that, he's talkingabout bitterness, anger, rage,
those kinds of things.
So he's talking about verynegative emotions that we who
are full of the spirit shouldn'tbe allowing to take us over

(12:19):
anyway.
And in the middle of all thosenegative emotions, he says,
don't give the devil a foothold.
Don't give the devil an opening.
And so demon eyes would be,well, there's not a demon that
has complete control of you,like the boy that was thrown
into the fire, or the 2,000 thatwent into the pigs.
But because of your emotionalstate, because of the fact that

(12:41):
you've made yourself vulnerableby living in anger, living in
bitterness, living in rage,those kinds of negative
emotions.
Or if you want to go talk aboutGalatians 5, beginning of verse
19, any of the works of theflesh, adultery, fornication,
uncleanness, lasciviousness,idolatry, witchcraft, all those
kinds of things listed there,that you give them an opening.

(13:03):
And so even if you're notcompletely possessed, let's say
you're highly influenced,because of the fact that most
people do things because ofemotions.
And if they can startmanipulating your emotions
because you've made yourselfopen and vulnerable to that,
that's what's called demonized.
So it would be yes, there's ademon involved, but he doesn't

(13:26):
have complete control over you.
But he definitely has sometremendous influence on you.
And you may feel because of thatinfluence that you're completely
controlled.

SPEAKER_00 (13:36):
So it's interesting that you brought up Y2K, the
year 2000.
And now that you're refreshingmy memory now, I remember
sitting through the workshops inthe 90s, and the devil doesn't
know when the world is going toend.
Jesus doesn't even know when theworld is going to end.
Only the Father knows.
So, you know, the year 2000,your point then and your point

(13:58):
now is if everybody's talkingabout the end of the world
coming in 2000, the devil mightthink, well, hey, I better, you
know, I better up my case.

SPEAKER_01 (14:06):
Maybe the Holy Spirit's telling them something,
you know.

SPEAKER_00 (14:09):
Yeah.
So it's been 25 years since theyear 2000 now.
I feel like interest in thespirit world has only increased
and gone mainstream.
I I wonder if you made thatreally interesting observation
about the 90s.
What have you observed happeningin the church and in the world
around the church since the year2000?

SPEAKER_01 (14:31):
Well, and of course, this is Beam's perception.
So forgive me if if myperception is not very astute.
But for the first part of the2000s, we actually became less
spiritual, I thought, in thesense that we became more and
more worldly.
The whole society, but not justthe society, the church became
more and more worldly.

(14:51):
So that many churches becamemore of a spiritual country club
than a true church of the livingGod.
The church I attend here inNashville is a great church.
But three or four years ago,they had a major problem, and
they brought uh Dr.
Rubel Shelley in.
They helped them theologicallydeal with that problem.
And during that study, they cameto realize that they had become,

(15:13):
I'm quoting them, that they hadbecome a spiritual country club.
And that what they needed to getback to was the pure gospel, get
back into studying the word.
And so, so they have a lot ofpeople going to church there
now.
Dr.
Leonard Allen, who is the headof the Bible department at
Lipscomb, Dr.
Carlos Gupton, who is the headof the Doctor of Ministry

(15:35):
program at Lipscomb, et cetera,have started going to that
church and being part of theirteaching program just for that
reason.
Now, more recently, it seemedthat people actually began to
turn further from God and moretoward the occult, although they
weren't necessarily calling itthe occult.
Now, there are certain peoplethat, you know, follow things

(15:56):
like the Wiccans, but manypeople were getting more into a
self-help program.
And I'm all for people becomingthe best they can be.
But where it became that there'sthe universe, and you begin to
hear not about God, but aboutthe universe.
And then the next thing youknow, everybody was some kind of
a channeler.

(16:17):
You know, God's channelinghimself, or the universe is
channeling itself through me.
And church people then startedthinking that anything, well, I
made that too generic.
I'm sorry, BT.
Some church people began tothink that if they felt
something strongly, then Godtold them.
The Holy Spirit laid this on myheart, or God told me that.

(16:39):
I'm a dear friend of mine.
We we had his funeral a coupleof years ago, but every other
thing he said, God told me, orGod lay this on my heart.
And I finally said to him, youknow, God's awfully busy just
with you, because everything youthink or feel, everything you
think or feel, you you attributeit to God because he loved God

(17:01):
dearly.
But you have to understand, justbecause you feel it doesn't mean
it's coming from God.
And so in that sense, there'sbecome much more interest in
spirituality, but not so much inbiblical spirituality.
Now, our friends in the uhPentecostal churches, you know,
they've always been into this.

(17:21):
But but some of the theologyI've met there, for example, I
was called into this assembly ofGod church and to visit with
this guy, and he said, Yeah,we're dealing with this demon
and a person here, but he's alsoat the same time in a person in
West Virginia and another personover in New Jersey.
And I said, Stop right there.
Demons aren't deity.

(17:44):
They don't have the ability tobe omnipresent.
Oh, yeah, but we know his name,and he's in all three people.
Biblically, that's not possible.
God's omnipotent, God can beall-powerful, God's omnipresent,
he can be everywhere, but Satancan't.
Satan himself can't beeverywhere.
He's an angel, can be one placeat a time, and so you're giving

(18:06):
these demons the ability of God.
So while I appreciate the factthat you want to fight evil,
your theology's very muchlacking.
You need to get more into theword, my friend.

SPEAKER_00 (18:17):
Spiritual warfare seems to be an idea that is no
longer confined to the innercircles of the church.
It seems to be going moremainstream in pop culture.
So, what do you think mostChristians and most people in
general get wrong aboutspiritual warfare?
You just gave an example there,but where where do you think we

(18:37):
we get tangled up in unbiblicalideas about spiritual warfare?

SPEAKER_01 (18:42):
One of the most common things I hear is that uh
I'm being attacked withspiritual warfare.
When what they did was that theythey ate poorly, they ate fats
and sugars and stuff untilfinally they were 350 pounds,
and now they're saying I'm beingattacked spiritually with my
health.

(19:02):
And I'm going, that's not aspiritual attack.
You you did that to yourself.
And it kind of got to the pointwhere that anytime I felt any
opposition from anything,including my own body or anyone,
whether it's my best friend or apolitician, that that became
spiritual warfare, and it becamekind of the word for anytime
things aren't going the way Iexpect them to.

(19:24):
Yes.
Whereas a lot of that is is aresult of our own actions.
It's it's not the devil doingit, although I'm convinced the
devil's out there, and I'mconvinced the devil is active.
Another thing is this idea thatthere are angels, which I'm
convinced there are, and that wesomehow command them.

(19:45):
One fellow told me, he said,When I moved into my new house,
I went to that corner of myproperty and that corner, the
four corners of my property, andI commanded an angel to stand at
the four properties, fourcorners of my property as long
as my family lived there.
He said, So we're safe.
And I said, What made you thinkyou could command them to do

(20:05):
that?
I mean, where do you get thatkind of authority or power?
Don't you understand that whenJesus, according to the Hebrew
writer, when he became a humanbeing, he became a little lower
than the angels.
They're not a lower life speciesto us, or whatever you want to
call it, they're not a lowerbeing than us.
They're a higher being than us.
And so by coming here, Jesusbecame lower than they were.

(20:29):
And people tell me all the time.
I commanded Satan to do this,and I commanded Satan to do
that.
And I'll pull out Jude and I'llsay, okay, we have a story here
where Michael, the archangel,was continuing with Satan for
the body of Moses.
And even Michael, the mostpowerful good angel we know

(20:50):
anything about, didn't rebukeSatan on his own.
He said, the Lord rebuke you.
And we have a story inRevelation where Michael and
Satan's armies fought in theheavens and etc.
And you think you have the powerto command Satan, to ban Satan,
those kinds of things?
Now, there are a lot of thingswe can do in the name of the

(21:10):
Lord Jesus Christ, but you gotto understand he's big, he's
bad, and he's mad.
And when people, and and and wego on, it was either Peter or
you that would say this thatpeople who don't understand the
power of those spiritual beingsare like brute beast, meaning
you're as dumb as a dog.

(21:30):
If you think that these beingsaren't as powerful as they are,
and they are extremely powerful.

SPEAKER_00 (21:37):
I was in my early 20s, mid-20s.
It'd been a few years after Iread Seeing the Unseen for the
first time, and it was fresh onmy mind.
And then a few years later,again, mid mid to late 20s, I
had a bad experience with aChristian elder uh who claimed
to be able to cast demons out ofpeople who are struggling with

(21:59):
things like drinking, drugs, andsex addiction.
And I ended up in therapy.
I'm not afraid to admit it here.
I ended up in therapy because ofwhat was a traumatic experience
I had with this man.
More than 20 years ago, it stillraises a lot of questions for
me.
Eventually, I was what we calldelivered from my sin into

(22:19):
recovery.
It wasn't by an act of spiritualwarfare by an exorcist, I'll put
it that way, like this manclaimed to be able to do, but
through lots of what we mightcall unspiritual methods like
counseling and 12-step groupsand things like that.
So I think maybe the crux of theproblem for me is that this
Christian elder believed thatdeliverance had to come through

(22:41):
only spiritual means, and itcould happen like that.
He would cast out a demon.
But my experience provedotherwise, and I struggled with
that.
Like I said, I had to get intotherapy because I thought I'd
been rejected by God when theexorcism didn't work.
So your book was fresh on mymind when that happened to me.
You've been through a lotyourself.
Could you talk about thatsituation I was in as a young,

(23:04):
as a young man and what happenedthere?

SPEAKER_01 (23:09):
I remember way back when I was a young man.
So this would have been like1832 or something.
So way back when I was a youngguy, there was an article in the
Gospel Advocate, which was avery popular magazine that
circulated in the churches ofChrist back back in the 70s, for
example.
And a guy had written an articlein there that demon possession

(23:29):
in the New Testament wasactually euphemisms for mental
problems, and that there was nosuch thing as true demon
possession.
It was about people who wereschizophrenics or whatever it
might be.
And and I reject that.
When the New Testament talksabout demon possession, it means
demon possession.
But I'm going to go back to theto our Catholic friends again.

(23:49):
Over time, they came to realizethat you can call anything demon
possession if it doesn't meetyour standard of what you
consider to be holy.
So depression, oh, you'redemon-possessed.
Anxiety, oh, you'redemon-possessed.
You know, grief.
No, people get depressed, peopleget anxious.
And so I go back to what ourCatholic friends finally figured
out, which is, no, if it's ifit's truly demonic, it is

(24:13):
supernatural.
And so somebody said to me, I amdemon-possessed.
Well, let's start looking at theevidence here.
You see, they train theirexorcists that if you're going
to deal with a real demon, andit's really a demon, it's not
somebody having some kind ofemotional difficulty, that you
better realize that when you getin that room, that demon will

(24:36):
expose every sin you've everdone.
And so if you have anythingyou're afraid for the people
that are in there helping youwith to know, you don't want to
become an exorcist becausethey'll expose you.
And another thing is you don'tdo it by yourself because of the
fact that these people who aretruly demon-possessed can have
extraordinary physical power.

(24:58):
I mean, be as strong as three orfour men, that kind of thing.
And so, like I said, they wereuh they have five criteria.
I can't remember all, but one isspeaking a language that hadn't
been spoken in a thousand years,another is levitation, which I
would have to admit issupernatural, another would be,
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
And so, with a young man likeyou, if you were depressed or

(25:19):
whatever you were going throughat the time, and maybe even
let's say if I'm working withsome young guy who's having a
problem getting pastpornography, well, I know that
some of my Pentecostal friendswill say he's got a demon of
porn.
Well, where's the supernaturalaction?
Where he's he's watchingsomething on his computer.
There's nothing supernaturalabout that.

(25:40):
Now, might he be demonized inthe sense that they're taking
advantage of his negativeemotions?
Well, if you want to demon, youknow, by the way, I define
demonized early, maybe, butmaybe not even then.
And so I think you do atremendous amount of harm to
people to tell them they have ademon.
Because then they startquestioning all kinds of things.

(26:03):
Who am I?
What's going on with me?
What's et cetera, et cetera, etcetera.
So I would never approachsomebody who didn't demonstrate
supernatural qualities as beingdemon-possessed, because that's
just a that's unbiblical.
It's not according to scripture.
And by doing that, if you thinkabout it, BT, that's the way
people can take all kinds ofpower over you.

(26:25):
Oh, you've got a demon ofjealousy, or you've got a demon
of pornography, or you've got ademon of depression.
And now all of a sudden they'rethe authority, and you're the
weak person who has to yield totheir authority.
And so people that go aroundclaiming they can do all those
things.
My fear is that these are peoplewho are wanting to have power

(26:46):
and control.
Could be wrong, but that's myopinion.

SPEAKER_00 (26:52):
I want to kind of flip the coin a little bit here.
At about the same time that Ihad the experience with this
would-be exorcist, some peoplewho took spiritual warfare very
seriously began attending aChurch of Christ congregation
that I knew well.
And over time, they became verydisruptive.
They were the kinds of people,and you spoke of this earlier,

(27:14):
who often said things like, Godtold me to fill in the blank, or
the Holy Spirit said, fill inthe blank.
And they began to speak outagainst the congregation and its
leaders.
They would they would disruptworship assemblies.
And every time they did it, theyclaimed to speak for God.
If you think that something wentoff the rails there, could you

(27:35):
tell us what it might have been?

SPEAKER_01 (27:38):
Well, I know what you're talking about.
A young man that I'm very fondof, a really good guy, loves
Jesus.
He got very much into that.
And and he got onto the staff ofa of one of the churches of
Christ, where one of my one ofmy friends, a good, very good
friend, is the lead ministerthere.
And this young man began tocause problems, just like you're
describing.

(27:59):
And and so the minister of thatchurch, my good buddy, called me
and he said, Well, what do wedo?
He said, He's he's he'sdisrupting this church.
But I know he's a good man witha good heart.
I love him.
So I called a Pentecostalpreacher here in uh Nashville
that I had met, and that was anolder guy who had a lot of
wisdom about life and things,and I got the two of them
together.
And the Pentecostal ministertold my friend minister, you've

(28:24):
got to remove that guy from yourstaff because church unity is
crucial, and God does not send aspirit of division.
And if this young man, in hissincerity, but misguided
sincerity, is beginning todisrupt or divide that church,
he is not acting for God becauseGod's not trying to tear
churches apart.

(28:44):
God's trying to build churchestogether, and so you just need
to love him and let him go.
And that's what my friend did.
He said, you know, and and theguy went to a church with
similar beliefs that he had andfit in perfectly there.
Another church that I getinvited to speak for at least
once a year, sometimes more thanthat, for the last 19 years, is

(29:05):
out on the uh Mexican border inTexas.
And it started off as anassembly of God, and over the
years it it left the assembly ofGod and became what uh is now
referred to as a communitychurch.
And and their theology andmine's about 99% the same.
And when this young man, who hadbeen the associate pastor in

(29:27):
that church, became the leadpastor in that church because
the older man resigned, he toldme, he said, Joe, the first
thing I did was I call in somepeople in my church who uh were
always speaking in tongues andgiving interpretations.
And he said, I told them, now mybelief is the same as yours that
God does that today.
Now, understand I'm quoting him.
He said, My belief is God doesthat things again, but I'm quite

(29:49):
convinced he's not doing itthrough you.
Because I know the kind of livesyou live outside of church, and
God's not talking through you,and so you're not allowed to say
a word in church again.
Well, half his church left.
And they had 300, went down tolike 150, and now they're
averaging 7,000 in attendant.

unknown (30:09):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (30:10):
Uh-huh.
I think that no matter howpassionate people might be, no
matter how sincere they may be,God's not sending them to tear a
church apart.
That's not what that's not thework of God.
And you know that good people,misguided, can be used by Satan,

(30:33):
even though these people don'trealize it.
For example, one of my buddieswas a very charismatic elder in
his congregation.
And therefore was kind of thelead elder in that since that
people followed him.
He had so much personality,charisma, love, that kind of
thing.
They uh he wound up gettingcaught having an affair.

(30:55):
Of course, he resigned from theeldership and his wife divorced
him.
And right after that happened,the minister who had been to
that church about 20 years, someof the kids he had baptized were
now deacons in that church.
You understand?
He'd been there a long time.
They finally caught him for 20years.
He'd been going out to othercities and soliciting boys in

(31:19):
boys' bathrooms and parks andthings like that, had been
arrested several times, but itnever got back to his church.
And now it did.
Now you could imagine, oh, rightin the middle of this, the the
church was in the middle of abuilding project, which makes it
even more vulnerable.
And so your minister has beenthere 20 years, gets caught as

(31:40):
having been in arrested severaltimes and has just never been
exposed.
And now he's exposed.
And so people have beenfollowing that man's leadership
for 20 years, and now there'sone guy in that church with a
personality who can rescue it,and he's not there anymore.
And so I was having aconversation with him.
I said, you know, you're you'rewhat you did in having your

(32:04):
affair was your decision.
Nobody made you do that.
But you know how that in thecase with David in the Old
Testament, we don't know howmany times he walked on that
roof and and didn't get tempted,or even if he saw a beautiful
woman bathing, didn't gettempted.
But we're told about the onetime when it did work.

(32:24):
Now, do you think it's acoincidence that she happened to
be bathing in her backyard thesame night that David couldn't
sleep?
Now, I don't think there's acoincidence to that.
They they know if they can getpeople with similar weaknesses
together, then they may act onthose weaknesses and do
something wrong.
I said, So I'm quite convincedthe devil didn't make you have

(32:44):
an affair.
But the woman that you had theaffair with, I mean, you've gone
for years and been faithful toyour wife.
Why her?
And he said, This, this.
I said, Can you see this?
At the same time that yourminister was just about to
finally be exposed.
If I were the devil, and I'mnot, I don't care what they say
on the internet, but if I werethe devil, I think that would be

(33:07):
the perfect plan to kill thatchurch.
Get in the middle of thebuilding program so it makes it
financially vulnerable.
A preacher that's been 20 years,they all love, and expose them
as being consistently sinningfor 20 years, and and have their
charismatic leader out at thesame time.
And I said, So?
How does it feel being used?

(33:30):
Kind of made him mad.
I said, I'm not trying to makeyou mad.
I'm serious.
How does it feel being used?
Because I'm quite convinced theyused you, and and now you're
paying the penalty for that, andbut so is that church.
I think there are many timesthat they're good people who
wind up in situations theyshould have never been in, and
I'm not justifying thesituation.

(33:53):
That that can also be people whoabsolutely believe they're doing
the right thing, like God toldme that.
These bad guys are good at whatthey do.
The primary tool of Satan hasnever been possession, it's
always been deception.
You know, he's a liar and thefather of lies, and and these
guys are amazing deceivers.

(34:15):
Now, the good news about thatbig guy who had been the elder,
uh, I actually, along withanother minister, got to
officiate at the wedding wherehe and his wife remarried each
other a couple of years later.
So he was rescued by the graceand power of God.
But I'm convinced those thingsare spiritual warfare.
My my getting indigestion is notspiritual warfare.

(34:39):
My having an argument with theuh the association of the
neighborhood where I live is nottypically spiritual warfare.
My having a terrible boss is notnecessarily spiritual warfare.
But when the kingdom of God isbeing affected, when souls are
being threatened or lost, that'sspiritual warfare.

(35:00):
The rest of the stuff is justthe pettiness of life, in my
opinion.

SPEAKER_00 (35:07):
I I was working with a church recently, and I think
this congregation isrepresentative of a lot that
I've encountered over the last20 years or so.
There's a real desire to hearfrom God and to know what God
wants us to do.
But for Church of Christ folkswho are coming around to
believing that God mightcommunicate with us and direct

(35:28):
us through what we callspiritual means, uh, we often do
not know how to do that.
So, to put it in simple terms,I'm thinking of this eldership
that shared with me severaltimes over the last year or two
that they have come to believethat the Holy Spirit is
available to their congregation.
But as Church of Christ lifersfrom the baby boomer generation,
they don't have the first cluehow to connect with, discern,

(35:52):
and follow the Holy Spirit.
So at times, Church of Christcongregations that come around
to believing in the very realpresence of the spiritual world
are like the Wild West.
Nobody knows, quote, how itworks, unquote.
So you can have all kinds ofpeople trying all kinds of
things, and it can lead tochaos.
And I've given a couple ofexamples in this interview.

(36:13):
What advice would you give tothat eldership that believes in
the spiritual world, most of allin the presence of the Holy
Spirit, but doesn't know what todo about it for the life of the
church and the maturation oftheir members?

SPEAKER_01 (36:27):
This is a very good question.
I would agree with them thatthat the Holy Spirit is
available more than what wetraditionally have thought.
Think about it this way.
You know, in in Ephesianschapter four, when when Paul
writes to the letter, uh writesthat letter to the Ephesians,
it's a church at Ephesus, hesaid, if you wonder what the

(36:47):
will of the Lord is, and hetalks about that, he said that
then he starts listening severalthings.
And the first thing he says is,be filled with the Spirit.
Now, I believe, and I think mostof us in the churches of Christ
believe that you receive theHoly Spirit at baptism.
Now, there are some of us whodon't believe that, that that
refers to the word of God.

(37:08):
But I'm of the ilk that believethat that at baptism repent, be
baptized, and receive the giftof the Holy Spirit.
And I believe that.
So that when in Acts, when Paulgets, well, I guess it was
Ephesus, wasn't it?
When he says, Those guys, youreceive the Holy Spirit since
you believed, they said, Who'sthat?
We haven't even heard of him.
Well, what bat what kind ofbaptism didn't you get?

(37:30):
And he baptized them again sothey could have the Holy Spirit.
Now, it's to those people whoalready have the Holy Spirit
that in the book of Ephesiansand chapter four, he says, be
filled with the Spirit.
So there's something more therethan just what we get at
baptism.
Okay, I'm convinced there is.
All right, but I as you said,okay, even if you believe that,

(37:54):
and and and surely other peoplebelieve it, even if they don't
think they do, because in Jameswe're told to pray for wisdom
and to believe that we get it.
Well, then God's communicatingto me in some way other than
through my five senses.
When when I was a young man andI was taught God can only
communicate to our five senses,we either have to see it, smell

(38:16):
it, taste it, touch it, youknow, hear it, that kind of
thing.
And I didn't think back thenthat to ask questions when I was
being taught that, like, wait aminute.
The angel spoke to Joseph, thehusband of Mary, in her dream.
Which which of the five sensesis that?
He didn't taste it, touch it,feel it.

(38:37):
You understand that that wascommunication directly into his
mind, directly.
And if you think about that, ifyou ask for wisdom, you're
asking for the same thing.
Do something in my mind.
All right.
So, how can you trust it?
How can you know?
Because if I pray for wisdom,how can I know if it's wisdom
from God or wisdom that might bebeing sent to me by my own

(39:02):
desires or from other badsources?
Well, here's the way Iunderstand that, and feel free
to correct me.
Okay.
The first is it's got to be inconsistent, it's got to be
consistent with the word.
People who don't know much aboutthe Bible, who tell me that God

(39:22):
said this or God put that on myheart, I'm thinking, you
wouldn't know if he did.
And you wouldn't know how tocheck that.
We're told to test the spiritsto see which one would be of
God.
Well, I only have one way totest the spirit, and that's my
objective truth.
And the objective truth I haveis what's in the word.
And and one good thing about us,well, there's many good things,

(39:44):
but one of the good things aboutus in the churches of Christ, we
are people of the word.
I've been invited to speak forevery kind of church you can
imagine, okay?
And I've I've interacted withministers and pastors and
priests from many otherreligious groups who are
claiming to be part ofChristendom.
And I'm telling you, even theirministers who have been through

(40:09):
their theological schools arepeople who don't have as much
typical Bible knowledge as theaverage Church of Christ people
sitting in the pew.
Now, I don't have any exactcriteria to where, you know,
I've done exact research and canprove that in every way.
But for example, I was talkingto this president, I'm sorry,

(40:30):
United Methodist minister oneday, and and he said, I didn't
know that Pentecost was a Jewishholiday.
I said, What?
He said, and I've been toseminary, nobody taught me that.
And I'm thinking, uh, just abouteverybody in the church of
Christ who's been there morethan a few years knows that.
So we are people of the book.
And I once met a Baptistpreacher who was named by Time

(40:52):
Magazine as one of the 10 bestpreachers in America.
And I had to go meet him.
I want to meet somebody thatsaid good.
By the way, he said, Well, likeone of my deacons said, what
does Time Magazine know aboutpreaching?
I thought, okay, that's that's ahumble reply.
I like that.
And and he said, I grew up in alittle town.

(41:14):
It had two churches, a church ofChrist and a Baptist church.
He said, I guess I wound updoing what most people do.
I went to the one where I feltpeople showed me more love.
I said, Are you saying thechurch of Christ people?
Oh no, no, no, no.
I'm just saying the Baptistpeople gave me more.
He said, but I'll tell you onething I've always appreciated
about the churches of Christ.
You guys know the book.

(41:35):
Well, I think that's a goodcompliment.
Now, not everybody in churchdoes.
There are a lot of people thatknow about that much scripture
and act like they know it all.
But the more we become true,genuine Bible students, then
that's the first thing.
And so if a church were to sayto me, Dr.
Beam, we want to hear from theSpirit more, what do we do?
I'd say, spend at least oneyear, at least one year in deep

(42:00):
Bible study, where you surveythe entire Bible and at least
get a picture of the whole thingtogether and hide this together,
and then go back and pick thesevarious things.
I mean, know the book, becausethe second wave would be wisdom.
So I call that one the word.
Then comes wisdom.
Like, for example, when Paul'strying to go to Asia and he has

(42:21):
that dream, you may remember,and he woke up the next morning
and he told his buddies, it's inthe book of Acts there, he tells
his buddies, I had this dreamabout this guy in this
Macedonian garb.
And if you look at the way Lukewrites it there, basically what
he said was, Y'all reckon that'swhere we're supposed to go?
Now, that's how you phrase it ifyou were from Tennessee.

(42:42):
But they they had to think itthrough.
Is God telling us to go there?
Because God didn't let out tellhim.
And and you start looking at theway God interacted with people
as they grew spiritually, thepeople who were not mature, he
acted, he treated them as ifthey were children.

(43:02):
This is what you do, this iswhat you don't do, this is what
you do, this is what you don'tdo.
And as they got more mature, hestarted leaving it up to them to
make decisions.
Like, okay, Paul, that's where Iwant you to go, but you've got
to figure this out.
Now I'm gonna give you someclues.
Like I'm gonna give you thisdream, but but you've got to
figure this out because if if wecan only do exactly what God

(43:26):
tells us to, then we're stillthis little children.
We have to use your word,maturate.
We have to mature.
And and so wisdom is a big deal,but wisdom is useless for people
who are not solidly grounded inthe word.
All right, but then I haveanother W, and again, BT, you
can correct me all you want herein a minute.

(43:47):
I call it awakenings.
And wakenings is my word, justso I could have another W.
Wakenings is my word.
When you just know you'resupposed to do something.
I've asked many audiences overthe time.
I'll say any of you guys everget this strong feeling that you

(44:11):
should pick up the phone andcall a particular person, and
you didn't know why, but youjust felt like you're supposed
to do that, and you went overand picked up the phone and
called them.
And when you did, they said, Oh,thank God you call me.
I really need you right now.
I said, How many of you?
I'm telling you, BT, on everychurch I've ever asked that
question, about half of theadult hands go up.

(44:32):
About half.
Now I'm saying, okay, do youthink God might be involved in
that?
I mean, did you know?
Well, no, you didn't know.
Now, I realize that uh thatthere's some people who say, no,
no, no, God's involved, notinvolved in that.
I told a story years ago, and itwas I was it was it was the day
the tax returns were due.

(44:53):
This was way back.
Okay.
And before I I started using anaccountant, I'm not rich enough
to use an accountant.
I just got tired of beingaudited.
But this was back when I stilldid my own taxes.
And of course, you had to haveit in mail by midnight.
I'd been working with it all daylong because I waited until that
day, you know, that kind ofstuff.
And so I'm trying to get to theairport by midnight to get my,

(45:16):
I'm not airport, I'm sorry, tothe uh uh post office by
midnight.
So I can get it, you know, astamp before midnight so I'm not
late.
So I drop it in.
All right, so it's like 10 tillmidnight, I'm driving back to my
house.
I had to go downtown Montgomery,Alabama, to do that because
that's the only post office Icould get in before midnight.
And I'm driving back, and all ofa sudden I felt like I should go

(45:36):
visiting one of our members.
Now, let me put this in context.
I never visited anybody.
It literally, and I'm notexaggerating, if I walked into a
hospital room to see one of ourmembers, they would say, I've
heard it more than once, I mustbe dying Joe's here.
Because I never, ever visitedanybody.

(46:00):
And I had this urge to visitthis guy, his family, you know,
this man and his wife atmidnight.
So I drive to their housebecause I felt urged to do that.
And I knocked on the door.
Now the curtains were drawn, thelights were on, and when I
knocked on the door, I couldhear some noise.
So I knocked on the door again,totally quiet, knocked on the

(46:22):
door again.
And now I'm thinking, I musthave interrupted a burglar or
something.
And about that time, uh, thegentleman of the house, the
home, my friend, he he crackedthe door open, just cracked it.
And I could see all he had onwas a pair of gym shorts, and I
couldn't see or smell or hearanything else, but just
instantly, just instantly, Iknew what it was.

(46:45):
And I said, Hey, uh you tell herto go home and you meet me in 15
minutes over here at thisall-night restaurant.
So he shut the door, I went, Igot a table.
15 minutes later, he walked in,he was furious, he was angry.
He said, How did you know aboutthat?
I said, I didn't.

(47:07):
Why didn't you come to my house?
I don't know, but I did.
Wow.
How did you know she was there?
I don't even know who she is,but I knew she was there.
I said, I'm convinced that Godtold me.
And and we're here to rescue youfrom this.
Now I told that from the pulpitonce.

(47:29):
Oh man, I got attacked likecrazy.
God is no respecter of persons,therefore, if God sent you to
one person's house, God wouldhave to send you to everybody's
house that was committingadultery.
Otherwise, God's a respecter ofpersons.
I thought, well, if God sent melike that, I'd I'd be better
than Santa Claus.
I'd be going everywhere you canimagine.

(47:51):
No, I don't know why God doeswhy he does.
I don't know why God chooseswhom.
I don't know how God chooseswhen.
I don't even know why Godchooses why, but I do know that
there have been many times inlife.
Do you happen to know bunnychance who Joe Almanzo is?

SPEAKER_00 (48:10):
Joe Almanzo?
Doesn't ring a bell for me.
I bet it does for somebodylistening to this, though.

SPEAKER_01 (48:17):
I'm sure it will.
Joe's over in the in the Dallasarea.
When he was a young man, he waspart of what he refers to as the
Mexican mafia.
Okay.
Okay.
He did some pretty bad stuff.
And then he finally got arrestedand convicted, and he went to
the penitentiary.
And one day he's walking downthe hall in a penitentiary, and
there's a trash can, and he seesthis multicovered colored little

(48:40):
thing in the trash can.
And out of curiosity, it picksit up and it's an offer for a
Bible correspondence course.
So he starts taking a Biblecorrespondence course while he's
in prison.
And finally, somebody comes inthe prison, teaches him
personally and immerses him.
And uh and eventually he got outand he was so convicted then
that he went to school andlearned about his Bible and

(49:02):
became a minister.
And so Joe tells a story howthat that his church was right
on the edge of these projects inhis church building, and that
the only air conditioneranywhere around was in his
office.
You know, auditorium wasn't airconditioned, certainly those
those slums weren't airconditioned.
And and he said he's sittingthere studying when all of a
sudden he just was compelledthat he had to get up and go

(49:27):
offer free Bibles.
He said, I told the Lord it'shot out there, and I'm studying
for Sunday.
And he said, I couldn't get itout of my mind.
He said, So I picked up ahandful of Bibles and I started
into the projects and I knockedon this door, and and it was
just a screen door because itwas so hot that the screen door
was shut, the wooden doors open,and this lady comes out of the

(49:50):
shadow and said, Yes, and hesaid, I'm Joel Monshoe.
I came because I thought maybeyou'd like to have a Bible.
And she said, I was just prayingfor one.
He said, Well, I'm the guythat's been sent to deliver it.
And he said, May I help youunderstand it?
Set up a Bible study with her,and after a period of time,
converted led to Jesus, her, herhusband, and her grown children

(50:14):
all became Christians.
And he said, Joe, I was tryingto study, but she wouldn't quit
praying.
I thought that is so cool.
Now, if somebody's gonna say Godwasn't involved in that, I'm
gonna say, How dare you saythat?
Every good gift comes from God,the father.
And God said, Ask for wisdom.

(50:36):
Well, if if awakening comes, andall of a sudden, I'll bet you,
BT, if we well, forgive me forusing the word a bet, but I'll
guarantee you, if we were tostart digging through your life
right now, you would come upwith times when you did
something like that.
Picked up the phone, wentsomewhere, called did something,

(50:57):
just because you felt the urgeto do it, and it turned out to
be the very thing that personneeded.
And I'm gonna thank God for thatevery single time.
And so if I were talking tothose elders, I'd say, spend at
least one year, if not more, inintense Bible study for every
age group.
Every age group.
Teach the Bible as detailed asyou can.

(51:18):
Now, once you feel that peoplehave got that, then start
praying for wisdom.
And you might suggest to people,since you guys are the elders,
you're the shepherds, whichwould theoretically mean you
have more wisdom to begin with,that if they're not sure what
wisdom God is giving them,they'll come talk to you about
it.
Because in much counsel, thereis wisdom.

(51:40):
And so if they're not real sureand they're praying for wisdom,
and sometimes you'll look atthem and say, Well, based on our
understanding of God in thescripture, we believe that this
is the wise case.
I said, and sometimes you'regonna look at them and say, I
don't think God cares which oneof those two things you do.
Pick one.
God, it's okay, it doesn'tmatter to God if you're living

(52:02):
in Dallas or Phoenix, pick onebecause both are okay.
Both of them are in harmony withGod.
But sometimes you'll be able totell them, no, no, that that
option is very unwisespiritually.
Let me tell you why.
And sometimes that option isvery wise spiritually, and
sometimes it's like, either onespiritual, go with it.

(52:23):
And once you help people startlearning how to discern wisdom
from God, and start encouragingpeople to talk about their
awakenings.
Maybe uh, even if you don't haveSunday night services anymore,
maybe one Sunday night a monthor something, people come
together to tell stories abouthow God used them.
And so one, I'm sorry, I'm offof my stories.

(52:45):
I'm an old man, I tell stories.
One of the churches I wasfilling in, churches I was
filling in for in Nashville backa few years ago, I took a few
$100 bills.
And on a Sunday morning, I said,okay, by the way, I collected
the$100 bills.
I only put one of them in.
I got the other smother people.
Okay,$100 bills.

(53:06):
And I said, if you're willing topray for God to use you with
wisdom, give you wisdom to dosomething with this hundred
dollar bill, come up here andget it.
And then in a couple of weeks,we're gonna ask you what you did
with it and why and whathappened.
Stories were amazing, absolutelyamazing.

(53:30):
One guy said, I didn't know whatto do, I had no clue what I had
this hundred-dollar bill, andI'm feeling guilty because I
didn't know what to do with it.
And he said, I got a call from aguy I'd never even heard of.
He he said to a friend, I needto talk to somebody and said,
Well, go call my buddy.
And he said, He called me.
I didn't even know the guy.
The guy's marriage was introuble.
And and so we talked for awhile.

(53:51):
And and his wife at that verymoment had left him and gone to
Atlanta to be with her lover.
I said, Does she have a cellphone?
He said, Yeah, let's call her.
I said, Did you know what youwere doing?
He said, I didn't have a clue.
I have no clue what to do.
But I picked up the phone tocall her again, you know, and
called her and said, I know youdon't know me, but I believe God

(54:12):
wants me to tell you thatthere's hope for your marriage,
and here's how we can help you.
And and she said, Well, I don'teven have money to get back from
Atlanta.
He said, I got a hundred-dollarbill right here.
I'll pay for your way to getback from Atlanta.
And by the grace of God, got himinto the into the situation they

(54:33):
need to be in, save theirmarriage, and now about once
every two, three years, they'llcall him on the anniversary of
that and thank him once again.

SPEAKER_00 (54:40):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (54:41):
And all he did was say, Wow, I'll take a
hundred-dollar bill.
I'm convinced God and the HolySpirit works that way.
But if you don't have wisdom,you may blow it.
And your wisdom can't bespiritually wise if you're not
full of the word.

SPEAKER_00 (54:58):
Believe it or not, the idea for this for this
conversation we're having rightnow, and we're recording this on
September 16, 2025, came back inJune of this year when a state
legislator in Minnesota, MelissaHortman, and her husband Mark
were shot and killed by a manwho claimed claimed he was

(55:22):
waging spiritual war.
And uh it seemed to me when Iread that story that more and
more these days people areacting in violent ways against
others and claiming that they'redoing so as soldiers in a in a
spiritual in a spiritual warthat's it's happening around us.

(55:42):
So first, I guess the firstquestion I want to ask here is I
think you would say that yes,there is a smore happening now,
and that we are involved in it.
That that's kind of the premiseof seeing the unseen.
But where can that belief thatwe are in a spiritual world,

(56:02):
where can it go right and wherecan it go really wrong?

SPEAKER_01 (56:06):
Well, I I don't mean to be redundant, but I think it
has to go back to the word.
Obviously, the the the scripturesays, Thou shalt not kill.
And so instantly you would knowthis is not God telling me to do
this.
I had an elder in the church ofChrist a few years ago, for
example, left his wife for hisuh girlfriend from high school

(56:30):
that he reconnected with onFacebook.
And when I asked him, I said,How can you justify this?
He said, God is giving me achance to be with the woman he
intended me to be with to beginwith.
And I said, You know that's nottrue.
He said, How do you know it'snot true?
Because it's inconsistent withthe word, it's in contradiction
to the word.

(56:51):
God doesn't violate his ownword.
One man told me, or one womantold me, the Holy Spirit told me
to leave my husband for thatman, to which I replied, You may
be hearing from a spirit, butit's not the Holy Spirit.
So as much as we will have topay, and we will, and we do,

(57:12):
standing up for what's right,saying it out loud, even though
we may face canceled culture, uhI don't know any other way than
to stand up and teach and preachJesus because he's gonna be the
answer.
And teaching and preaching Jesusmeans you have to take stands.

(57:33):
And and so if somebody says, butyou're being homophobic, or you
are don't care, you don't wantpeople to live the life that's
meant for them, or whatever itmight be.
Look, I care if if two people ofthe same gender, if they truly
love each other and if they'rehaving troubles, I care for

(57:54):
their pain, but I can't helpthem fix that because that's
outside the word of God.
And I can't do that.
It doesn't mean I don't havecompassion, it doesn't mean I
don't care.
It means there's a standard bywhich we have to live.
Uh several years ago, I wasinvited to come on the Jimmy
Kimmel show and talk about this,and my board of directors would

(58:17):
not let me go.
They said he'll he'll make funof you.
And I said, he's a comedian.
What do you expect him to do?
And they said, Why would youwant to go?
And I said, Because I want thisaudience to see a different
version of Christians than theyhave in their minds.
Because I'll stand for thetruth, but I'll be kind and
compassionate in general.
And and we need to be.

(58:38):
I'm glad you're doing this, forexample.
Uh I don't have hate towardanybody, and and there are
situations in life that I seethat break my heart.
But we have to have the courageto stand up and say, according
to the holy book I follow, thisis what's right and this is
what's wrong.

(58:59):
And I can't help it if thathurts you.
It hurts me sometimes.
It hurts me.
One of my friends many yearsago, one of my students when I
was teaching at FalconUniversity, took me to lunch one
day and said, I need you to knowthat homosexual, but I'm chaste.
If I'm chaste, well, will you beokay with me?

(59:19):
I said, I'm a heterosexual, butexcept for sex with my own wife,
I'm chaste.
Can you handle me if I'm chasteexcept for sex with my own wife?
He said, What do you mean?
Well, if I don't act on my wrongurges, can you handle me?
And he said, Yeah, yeah.
I said, same with you, buddy.
You know, we all have ourweaknesses, we all have our
flaws, and I have nothingagainst you.
I want to help you, but we gotto stand up for what's right.

(59:41):
Now, you talk about awakeningsthat happen for people often
that they don't take advantageof.
BT, it's when they think thatawakening is going to get them
in trouble.
If I say this, I might getfired.
If I say this, I may lose myfriends.
If I say this, I may not bepopular anymore.
And And therefore, I'll justkeep my mouth shut.

(01:00:03):
And it appears I'm endorsingthings I don't believe in.
In this war in which we fight,standing up for what's right.
Unfortunately, some of thepeople who do stand up for
what's right are nuts.
You know what I mean?
They're the ones screaming andyelling and and screaming that

(01:00:25):
people are gonna go to hell andnobody's listening to them.
You know what I'm talking about,right?
But we can do it with compassionand love and kindness.
Uh I'm sorry if I'm redundantnow.
This really affects me.
My my life can't be that muchlonger.
I'm I'm 76 years old.

(01:00:45):
You know, my life on this planetis limited.
But my children and mygrandchildren, and the children
they're gonna have.
If we don't stand up for what'sright, what kind of world will
they be living in?
So yeah, it is a war, BT.
So thank you for being part ofthat war.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:09):
Thank you.
Let me ask you that's the lastquestion.
If you were to write Seeing theUnseen today instead of 1994,
would there be anythingdifferent about the book?

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:21):
Yeah, I'd be bolder.
I would uh I would give morestories that my publisher back
then wouldn't let me use becausehe said people will reject your
whole message if you say this.
For example, go talk to somemissionaries who've been in the

(01:01:44):
deepest, darkest parts ofAfrica, for example, not just
one place in the world, and andthey'll tell you stories that
they say I can't come back toAmerica and tell my sponsoring
church that because it won't fittheir theology and I might lose
my support.
Things they've seen.
And and one of them explained itto me this way.

(01:02:05):
He said, Joe, if you were thedevil, and again, I don't care
what they say on the internet,I'm not the devil.
But he said, Joe, if you werethe devil, and people in America
didn't believe the devilexisted, would you openly show
yourself?
No.
You'd work subtly behind thescenes, right?
You'd make it where they doubtedthat you existed, right?
Mm-hmm.
He said, That's exactly howSatan works in the Western

(01:02:28):
world.
He's always behind the scenesand subtle, so people don't see
him.
And they think he's this reddude with horns and a long tail
and a pitchfork, and so theymake fun of him and laugh at
him.
They don't realize how powerfulhe is.
Come here.
Come to West Africa, where theywere, for example, the guys I
was talking to, where they don'thave any doubt.
They have no doubt at all thatthere is Satan and evil and etc.

(01:02:52):
He said, There's nothing herethey need to hide.
Because these people alreadyknow he exists.
And they said, We have seenthings that nobody in America
would believe happen.
We've experienced them.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:04):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:04):
And and I'm telling you that these guys are there.
I still be cautious how I toldthe story because if it came
across as sensational, then youjust get written off as an
idiot.
You know, here's some nut.
But if we don't start actuallyacknowledging that he's big and
he's bad and he's mad, and he'shere, Jesus called him the

(01:03:29):
prince of this world.
Paul called him the prince ofthe power of the air.
We're told that the whole worldis under the control of the evil
one, first James, uh, first Johnchapter 5.
And and that will end accordingto 1 Corinthians 15 when death
ends, when resurrection day.

(01:03:51):
But he's definitely in control.
And I've seen that in mylifetime.
I was born in 1949.
In my lifetime, I've seen theworld change dramatically.
And when I was a boy on asitcom, the married couple
couldn't sleep in the same bed.
Lucy and Desi and I love Lucy ondifferent beds.

(01:04:12):
Dick Van Dyke, he and Laura,different beds.
It was like that's how chasteour country.
And that was not perfect, racialprejudice, lots of other bad
problems.
But but when it came to thatkind of morality, and now I I
saw an article of the day thatsaid they were they're showing
some movies with explicit sex onNetflix.

(01:04:35):
And if your kid happens to go onthe Netflix with your not the
kid's entry, but your entry,they can see it.
And and one guy who works withkids told me this one day.
He said, I have a big problemwith parents.
He said, There's not a parentthat I deal with that would put
a pornography library on thelower shelf of their home den

(01:04:58):
for their kids to have accessto.
Not one.
And they have this littleinstrument.
As soon as they get away fromthe house, or upstairs by
themselves.
And and if you say something tothe parents about it, it's like

(01:05:19):
you don't want my child to havelook, I want your child to have
everything they they deserve.
I just don't want you to losethem.
How terrible would it be to wakeup one day and think, if maybe I
had just done that, my kidwouldn't be like that.
I'm sorry, I'm getting morbidnow.

(01:05:40):
But it's a major, major battle,and the church is losing.
But it seems to be turningaround, BT.
It really does seem to beturning around.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:52):
We have listeners, and I don't know, I haven't
looked at the data lately, butit's like 112 different
countries, all 50 states.
So Church of Christ folks aroundthe world are listening to this
right now.
What are your parting words tothem?

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:07):
Well, I would say learn the word deeply.
That's where it all starts.
And if you'll forgive me and youcan cut this out if you think
it's inappropriate, I would loveto come wherever you are and
teach for a weekend aboutspiritual warfare.
If you say, what would it cost?
You just pay my expenses andthen whatever you think is fair.
I'm not in this for the money.

(01:06:28):
I'm saying it, and if you don'twant me because I'm old and
gray, then you do it.
But we need to be talking aboutspiritual warfare.
We need to examine thosescriptures.
Please, please get into thoseand please take them seriously
and start fighting for God.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:43):
Dr.
Joe Beam, thank you for uh thankyou for all the stories, all the
wisdom.
Uh it was great to it was likesitting in one of your workshops
again today.
So uh we're all really gratefulto you for being here.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:54):
Well, BT, I'm so sorry.
I rattled on so much.
I apologize for that.
Edit out whatever you thinkneeds to be edited out.
I know you will.
And I thank you again forinviting me.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:05):
I think we all enjoyed you very much.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:06):
I appreciate it.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:08):
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(01:07:28):
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(01:07:49):
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