Coach Garth Pleasant (Horton Road Church of Christ, Jackson, Michigan) is one of the winningest college basketball coaches of all time (720 wins, 19 national tournament appearances and four national championships at Rochester Christian University, Rochester Hills, Michigan, over 38 years).
In all that time, Coach Pleasant and his teams never played a single home game ... because they didn't have a home court.
In this episode, Coach Pleasant, who is also a veteran Church of Christ preacher for more than five decades, answers whether he would choose coaching or preaching...and why.
He shares both his philosophy and practice of coaching that made him successful by his own standard: Transforming the lives of young men into Christians and citizens.
Coach Pleasant also touches on:
- The current state of college athletics in the age of name-image-likeness (NIL) and the transfer portal (and how it affects private Christian schools like Rochester).
- How a greater dependence on intercollegiate athletics revenue is changing Christian college campuses.
- How the gospel he preaches (and how he preaches it) matured and seasoned over many decades in the church.
Link to Bobby Ross Jr.'s Christian Chronicle profile on Coach Pleasant (Sept. 20, 2024)
Link to the film documentary, Coach: Make the Bigtime Where You're At
Find more news and stories at christianchronicle.org
Donate to support this ministry of "information and inspiration" at christianchronicle.org/donate
Send your comments, ideas, and suggestions to podcast@christianchronicle.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Holly Linden (00:03):
Welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast.
We are bringing you the storyshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
Here is our host, BT Irwin.
BT Irwin (00:14):
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
The Church of Christ communityproduced some real sports
legends over the years Way toomany to list here.
A couple of examples, thoughJust a week or two ago, the
(00:35):
Christian Chronicle reviewed Dothe Right Thing, the Stallings
Standard, a documentary aboutthe life of legendary football
coach Gene Stallings, and a fewepisodes back on this show we
featured Colt McCoy, one of thegreatest college football
players of all time, a Church ofChrist sports legend that is
familiar to a lot of folks uphere in Michigan, where I live.
May not be as familiar to folksin other parts of the country,
(00:57):
but you're about to find out whyhe should be.
In fact, the ChristianChronicles' Bobby Ross Jr
recently spent a whole weekendwith him and wrote a story about
it.
You'll find that link in theshow notes.
He is Garth Pleasant, theretired head men's basketball
coach at what is now RochesterChristian University in
Rochester Hills, michigan.
Coach Pleasant led the Warriorsfor 38 years, earning 720 wins,
(01:20):
making 19 national tournamentappearances and winning four
national championships, and ifthat doesn't impress you, maybe
this well, out of all the gamesthat Coach Pleasant coached in
those 38 years, not one of themwas a home game.
In all that time RochesterChristian University did not
have a home basketball court.
Coach Pleasant's story recentlymade it into its own
(01:42):
documentary film Coach, make theBig Time when You're At.
He also wrote a book Don't BeAfraid to Stub your Toe Lessons
from an Old Coach.
You'll find links in the shownotes.
Coach Pleasant also served asthe minister with the Lake Orion
Church of Christ in Lake Orion,Michigan, for 30 years.
He retired from there but isstill preaching at the Horton
Road Church of Christ in Jackson, michigan.
(02:02):
Coach Pleasant, thank you fordribbling on in here today.
Thank you for having me, brad.
And before I get into thequestions, I have to disclose to
our audience that Coach and Ihave known each other for 30
years.
I was a student at MichiganChristian College from 1994 to
1996, and then I did stints asan employee at Rochester College
and then Rochester Universitythree times over the last 23
(02:24):
years.
So listener understand thatthis interview may sound a
little different from most ofthe others we do here.
It's because the subject and Iare friends that go way back.
And with that Coach.
Let's get down to the questions.
I'm going to start with this.
You coached for 38 years, but Ithink you've probably preached
for even longer.
So as long as you were coachingat Michigan Christian Rochester
(02:47):
, you were preaching at LakeOrient Church of Christ, and I
think you're still preaching now, just for a different
congregation.
So you were always in asituation where you could do
both coach and preach.
But if you had to choose one orthe other, which one would you
have chosen, and why?
Coach Garth Pleasant (03:02):
Without question, I would have chosen
being at Rochester ChristianUniversity.
I was the Lake Orion ministerfor 29 years and 11 months.
Wow, and why I would choosethat?
I've often said this.
There's two or three reasons.
Number one you always wonelders meeting away from being
(03:26):
fired at a church, and so I knewI could say what I believed and
I didn't have to preach a lie,because if they fired me I still
was putting food on my family'stable, yeah, but brad.
The real reason is that I wasable to be with young people
five days a week in theclassroom on the court coaching,
(03:52):
and their lives are beingmolded at that time and I felt
that maybe I could have agreater influence on young
people than I could old peoplelike myself, who are hard to
change.
BT Irwin (04:09):
Remind me what was your first year as head coach at
what was then MichiganChristian College 1972-73.
Coach Garth Pleasant (04:16):
I started working here in 1971, and I took
over the basketball job in 1972.
BT Irwin (04:23):
Okay, and you were 23 years old.
Coach Garth Pleasant (04:27):
Well, when I came here, I was 22.
I was 23 when I startedcoaching.
BT Irwin (04:31):
Okay, so 23 years old.
I remember what that was liketo be 23.
You're just starting out.
At that time, when you took thehead coaching position there at
Michigan Christian College, didyou set a goal to get a
coaching job at a bigger schoolin a few years, or did you think
?
No, I want to stay here therest of my life and build this
program.
Coach Garth Pleasant (04:52):
You know it was my dream job when I came
to school here in 67,.
The institution had atremendous impact on my
spiritual life.
Now.
I had great spiritual parents,an upbringing, but there was
something about being here and Ilove this place.
(05:15):
I fell in love with it and Iremember telling Dr Jones the
late Dr Jones I would like tocome back here and coach one day
.
And so that opportunity aroseand I was young and probably too
young.
I was so young that I thought Iknew everything about coaching
(05:37):
and I was going to out coacheverybody when do you think you
actually became a good coach?
I was still trying to become agood coach my last year of
coaching.
To be honest with you, everyyear I would work to try to make
myself a better coach.
I always liked the idea that Iwould fire myself after every
(05:58):
year and try to find out why Ishould come back.
Now, being the athleticdirector, I knew I was going to
hire myself back, but always tryto look at things that you can
improve on.
BT Irwin (06:13):
So let me ask the question a different way.
I reckon at some point, at somepoint along the way, someone
from another school had tonotice you and you had to, along
the way, receive invitations toapply for other jobs elsewhere.
And I reckon maybe some ofthose schools were Christian
(06:33):
schools or private.
You know private Christianschools where you would have had
the opportunity to form youngmen the same way you were at
Michigan, christian Rochester.
Did those opportunities evercome along and what made you
pass them up?
Coach Garth Pleasant (06:48):
They came along both at the collegiate
level and even at high schoollevel around here.
It was because of my love forthis institution, brad, and that
might be hard for people tounderstand, you know, but you
know I mean I love this place.
(07:08):
It's been my life.
My wife and I.
We were dorm parents.
I stayed here because I couldinclude my kids in my coaching.
I would take my boys with me togames and I took Kim sometimes,
and the bus would pull up infront of the house and we'd go
(07:33):
out and get on it and just greatmemories, great family memories
.
My wife kept score at times andshe washed the uniforms times
and she washed the uniforms wefed kids and we kept kids in our
house and I love theinstitution, yeah.
BT Irwin (07:52):
So let's talk about those kids for a second.
The subtitle of the documentarythat our mutual friend, ryan
Coral, made about you a coupleof years ago is make the big
time where you're at, and thatis as good a subtitle as anyone
could write for your life.
In fact, that's been one ofyour mottos over your entire
career at Rochester.
For those in our audience whoaren't familiar, you did not
(08:12):
coach a single home basketballgame over your entire career,
because Rochester did not have abasketball court for its home
games and the practice gym, aswe both know, was kind of a dump
.
You managed to recruit goodplayers and get great results
out of them.
Your teams always won year inand year out, and several of
(08:35):
them brought home nationalchampionships.
So you clearly discovered thesecret of turning the stone.
The builders rejected into thecapstone.
What is that secret?
How did you do it?
Coach Garth Pleasant (08:53):
Wow, first of all, make the Big Time when
you Are was a book I read,frosty Westerby.
I believe the author was Brad.
I never apologized to anyonefor what I didn't have.
I knew the kids I recruitedthat their middle school gyms
were much nicer than ourpractice gym.
When I came here we only hadtwo baskets.
(09:15):
I asked the president if Icould raise money to put up some
side goals and he said no.
Put up some side goals, and hesaid no.
And so what I did?
I went to Home Depot, got foursheets of plywood.
(09:37):
I had the maintenancesupervisor cut it into a fan
shape backboard, put a rim on itand bolted it to the walls down
there you can still see theholes where it was bolted, and
so that gave me four morebaskets.
The floor would warp and we cutit out and we put a piece of
plywood down and varnish it.
(09:59):
That floor set on concrete.
You know there was no give.
Most floors now have a subfloorthat was right on concrete.
Wow, and it was so cold in thatgym, so cold and the floor
(10:21):
would be slippery.
But we recruited kids thatusually didn't have another
option, brad.
But they were good kids andthey were good players and we
tried to make them betterplayers and we tried to recruit
kids that would fit into oursystem.
(10:44):
Okay, when I recruited a kid, Ihardly talked about basketball.
I talked about our twocornerstones.
Number one was our characterand the second cornerstone was
academics.
I wanted them to get a degree.
(11:06):
I got a degree and look whatI've been able to do.
And the second thing I wantedthem.
I even coached my own son and Iwanted him to leave here a
better person than when he camein and we talked about those
things and I hardly duringrecruiting I hardly ever talked
(11:28):
about basketball.
I talked about buildingcharacter and getting your
degree and I was a little toughon the kids, I think in some of
those things, brad, we endedevery practice with a prayer.
Every practice we got togetherand we prayed and I told them
(11:48):
all the time make good decisions.
Josh Graves wrote this in anarticle he had wrote one time
called.
I Will Always Call Him Coach,very dear to me, and he made the
comment I always told them Iwould rather not win a game and
be in heaven with every one ofyou than not to lose a game and
(12:12):
not be in heaven with one of you.
We tried to recruit kids thatwould fall into that category
and it's amazing sometimes howkids developed and how their
lives were changed.
I was meeting with two captainsone year before the season.
One was a Catholic, but onlywent to church maybe once or
(12:37):
twice a year and the other wasnothing.
And before we left CaribouCoffee, I said tell me about
your spiritual life.
And they both said Coach, Ithink about it a lot more than I
(12:57):
ever used to.
And during that year the youngman who did not have any
religious affiliation came in myoffice, closed the door and
said coach, my dad has cancer.
Would you pray with me?
You know, and the um, and so Imean that's greater than winning
any game, brad, yes, yeah.
(13:19):
So we tried to recruit kidsthat would fit into our system,
kids who played hard.
Coach has always talked abouthow hard we played.
Our practices were brutal,always talked about how hard we
played.
BT Irwin (13:36):
Our practices were brutal.
We practiced harder than weplayed.
I've heard you talk about thisa little bit.
Before you know, when you'rerecruiting players, there had to
be some kind of a calculus orformula that you use to decide
whether to go for a kid or not.
And obviously you want to wingames and you won a lot of games
.
And so you said a moment agothat you would recruit kids that
nobody else wanted, and yet youmust have seen the potential in
(13:59):
them to be winners.
Did you ever have situationswhere you felt like you had to
walk away from a player thatwould be a really good
basketball player but maybe notfit the character of the program
, or where you took a risk on akid who maybe didn't have the
talent but had the character andyou thought maybe I can coach
(14:19):
this kid up to a high level ofof performance?
Tell us a little bit how youweighed each each recruit and
figured out how, uh, whether youwanted them on your team or not
.
Coach Garth Pleasant (14:30):
Okay, great question.
Sometimes kids, they wouldeliminate themselves while I was
at the gym watching them playhigh school by their attitude,
various things like that.
I had a former player who was acoach call me.
(14:52):
I had a former player who was acoach call me.
He was a junior college coachand he had a junior college kid
that was All-American.
That went to Division I schooland the kid was leaving and my
former player said would youwant this kid?
He's 6'8", he averaged 15 and11.
(15:12):
I said yeah, and so we got thekid on campus.
I called his college coach andI started to tell him a little
bit about our program and hejust stopped me.
He said, coach, he'll be betterthan any player that you've
ever coached player that you'veever coached and he would have
been Brad.
He was 6'8", he had Popeye arms.
(15:35):
I was going to be a good coach.
One more year, okay, and so hewasn't going to graduate in the
one year he had.
And I went to our president, drJohnson, and I said here's the
situation.
And Dr Johnson said go aheadand recruit him and maybe you
can change his life.
(15:55):
I said okay.
So we had the kid on campus.
We got him in classes.
The next day, my assistant,george, called me down.
He said we might have a problem.
And I went down there and ayoung man was there.
And the young man says I'venever done my college, my home.
(16:18):
Let me back up.
I've never done my studies.
People did it for me and I sayswell, we will do all we can for
you.
We have an ACE lab and we willwork with you, but you're going
to do your own work.
His second problem was you knowhis I'm trying to think what he
(16:43):
said his social life, my sociallife.
Well, I knew what he meant andI said oh, I've got a great
social life.
He meant, you know parties andgirls and things that we didn't
tolerate here.
And so we talked and eventhough, even though he was going
(17:05):
to make me a really good coach,I said you know what?
This isn't fair to you and it'snot fair to me.
I took out my credit card.
We bought him a one-way ticketback home to one of the
Carolinas.
That was the last time we sawhim.
But you know, a cancer willdestroy you.
(17:27):
I don't care how good they are,I don't care how good they are,
a cancer will destroy you.
Yes, I recruited kids that Ididn't know how good they were
going to be.
One of them was Mike Tobin.
And Mike Tobin, when he firstcame to us, he was going up
(17:48):
against Mike Robinson and BennyThurot every day and they were
just beating him up.
When he's a senior he was ahoss.
He worked and worked and worked.
He was all-American.
He was the most valuable playerat the national tournament.
(18:10):
I went into the locker room athalftime and we were behind and
I was upset.
I know you mentioned that.
You heard me yelling one timeand you didn't come in the
locker room.
I was upset and I told the team.
I said if anyone takes a shotbefore Mike touches the ball,
(18:34):
unless it's a wide open layup,you will come out of the game
and you will sit on the bench.
We gave Mike the ball and wewon by 15 points.
But he was somebody you know.
His dad would say oh, I don'tknow if he's good enough to play
for you.
You love dads like that,because most dads think their
(18:57):
kids much better than theyreally are.
Big Benny, I love Benny.
Benny was from Detroit andthere's a reason we called him
Big Benny.
And I never in 38 years, Inever cussed at a player and I
didn't let them cuss in front ofme.
(19:20):
Benny came off the court I'vetold this story a lot and he
drops the F bomb loud.
It's the first time out of thesecond half in a close game.
I said Benny, sit down.
And so the team went back out.
I says Benny, you're not goingto play the rest of the game,
(19:40):
even if we lose.
You're not going back in Now.
This is an All-American, thisis a 6'6" 260-pound I mean beast
and we won the game.
I could call Benny right now onthe phone.
I could get him on the phoneright now and say Benny, do you
remember when you came off thecourt and you dropped the F-bomb
(20:03):
?
Yeah, coach, I sure do.
I said how many more times didyou do that?
He says none, coach, none.
BT Irwin (20:10):
And before we hung up I guarantee he would say I love
you coach, cause I'm not anathlete and I I've never coached
, but I am a dad and, uh, youknow, I have a 12 year old son
and so, uh, you know how do you,how do you push the players
hard on one hand, you know,psych them up without
discouraging them or or psychingthem out, are you?
(20:32):
How do you balance that, thatgrace and that tough love, to
get all you can, all you can getout of there is without pushing
them too hard to where they getdiscouraged and and quit?
Great question.
Coach Garth Pleasant (20:47):
You have to look at every kid as an
individual.
Okay, let me give you anexample.
I could just get after my son,johnny, and his attitude is,
I'll show you.
I get after his good friend,mike Robinson, two-time
(21:09):
All-American, maybe the bestplayer we've ever, one of the
best players we've ever had, andhe would pout and I had to come
back and say something good tohim hey man, you really did good
here, you know, but every kidis different.
The one thing we demanded, wedemanded that they gave a total
(21:38):
effort.
Okay, I mean we practiced hard,but again, every kid is
different.
My son Johnny, he'd rip yourhead, I probably shouldn't say
that, but I mean he was onetough cookie.
(21:59):
His son, logan is a really goodplayer but shows no emotion at
all.
Ricky Dorn, great player thatwe had, 6'10 kid, two-time
All-American, I never could findhis hot button.
Brad, is that right?
You know, he was Ricky, youknow, and he just, I mean he was
(22:24):
a good player, but as far aslike getting him fired up, you
know, and things like that, hejust went out and played.
Every kid is different and Ithink sometimes we overemphasize
pep talks.
Okay, we're playing for thenational championship game.
(22:48):
Why do I need to give a peptalk?
Okay, a couple times I justtold a funny joke, said let's go
, and I used to tell the guysthere's no pressure today.
Pressure is guys your age overin iraq getting shot at now.
That's pressure.
(23:08):
This is a game and um, I,number one, wanted them to have
fun.
I wanted them to have fun.
Number two, I wanted them todevelop themselves as players
and I thought doing those thingstook care of the third thing
(23:29):
winning.
BT Irwin (23:29):
I want to ask you a little bit more about the way
that college sports is changing.
38 years as a coach, you'veseen a lot of changes since 1972
.
And that doesn't include yourdays as a college player at
Michigan, christian and Lipscomb, I believe, right.
So you're, you're involved withthe sports management program
(23:51):
at Rochester Christian.
It's a good one, and yourecently hosted a public program
on how college sports ischanging.
I think that program focused onhow college sports is changing.
I think that program focused onhow paying student athletes and
changes to the transfer portalrules are turning college sports
into something completelydifferent than what we've been
used to.
How do you anticipate thatchanges in college sports are
(24:13):
going to trickle down to affectschools like Rochester?
Sports are going to trickledown to affect schools like
Rochester.
Do you think that in this newcollege sports economy, you'd be
able to do the same things nowat Rochester that you were able
to do over the course of yourcareer?
I don't think so.
Coach Garth Pleasant (24:29):
Wow, it has hurt high school sports
because a coach doesn't go tolook for a high school kid to
recruit.
Right now he goes to the portal.
Okay, john Beeline once said ifhe was still coaching he would
recruit the MAC, theMid-American Conference, they're
(24:53):
all conference team, right,right.
They're all conference team,right, right.
And the guy from OhioUniversity he made the comment,
he says some people said whathappened to your kicker?
He says I know what happened tomy kicker.
Alabama stole my kicker.
Okay, michigan stole theirpunter from Arkansas State.
(25:20):
I believe, yeah, it's out ofcontrol.
And I could see why.
Go back when Mike Robinson wasa freshman.
I didn't redshirt him because Iwas sure if I redshirted him, a
Mac school was going to come inand get him Really Yep.
(25:40):
And I think that can happentoday.
I know we have a player on theteam right now that a good
friend of mine, who really likesus and he wouldn't do anything
to hurt us.
But he told me if that kidwants to leave, please tell me.
Okay.
Not only does it trickle downto us, this is trickling down to
(26:06):
high school.
Wow, high school kids are goingto be starting to get paid.
Your team in Columbus spent $22million on their team this year
.
Yes, they recruited aquarterback out of Texas his
(26:30):
senior year.
He didn't even go to school hissenior year.
They recruited him.
He got $2 or $3 million fromthem.
Never took a snap, or maybetook one or two snaps, joined
the portal and went back toTexas and was their starting
quarterback.
Ewers or whatever.
His name is, quinn Ewers, yeah,yeah, I mean, it's a business
(26:54):
For me.
It's getting where I don't evenenjoy college sports anymore.
Rochester Christian Universityis the true college sport.
Our kids are here.
They get some scholarship money.
BT Irwin (27:14):
They're here because they love the game and I don't
know where it's going to go Ifthe situation you've described
in college athletics continuesthe way it has, how is that
going to affect schools likeRochester Christian that have
made intercollegiate athleticsso important to their revenue
(27:36):
model?
And then there's a follow-upquestion to that.
So I'll let you answer thatfirst question and then I'll
I'll go to the second one.
Coach Garth Pleasant (27:42):
Okay, I, I don't think it's going to
affect schools like us that much.
We could lose a basketballplayer.
Okay, I don't think we're goingto lose anybody else in another
sport.
I don't think we're going tolose anybody else in another
sport, and so I don't think it'sgoing to hurt us that much.
(28:04):
I don't think you're going tosee those big schools.
I think you're going to seethem stealing basketball players
and football players.
That's where all the money is.
I could see a Division IIschool saying that guy can play
for us see a Division II schoolsaying that guy can play for us.
BT Irwin (28:21):
Two trends that have been going on right over the
last few years in schools thatcome out of the Church of Christ
tradition.
One is that the number ofstudents who enroll in those
schools that come out of theChurch of Christ is declining as
a total percentage of thestudent body.
And we had a an episode, uh,last november, october, november
where we looked at, you know,even the schools down in the
(28:42):
bible belt, uh, the ones thatare strongest, uh, in their
connections with church ofchrist congregations, uh, the
percent of their total studentbody that comes from the church
of christ is shrinking.
And then you have some of thesmaller schools, like Rochester,
christian, york, faulkner, thatare making up for that by
(29:03):
recruiting not only studentsoutside the Church of Christ
tradition but, like I said amoment ago, starting a lot of
intercollegiate sports andbringing in a lot of student
athletes in order to bolster thebottom line.
We had an interview with MitchHenry at Faulkner University
last fall, I think, where wetalked about how Faulkner is
(29:25):
integrating those studentathletes into campus culture and
campus life.
So this question is building onthat interview we had with Mitch
Henry, you and I were both atRochester College back when Dr
Johnson was there in the 90s,and Dr Johnson is the one who
saw that we needed to recruitfrom beyond the Church of Christ
community in order forRochester to be a viable
(29:49):
four-year school, and you and Iboth saw how that changed the
campus culture and the studentbody, and it was.
It was a very positive change.
And now, uh, over the last fewyears Rochester Christian has
been, uh, we started a lot ofnew intercollegiate programs and
recruited a lot of studentathletes, and that's going to
continue to be a big part ofwhat Rochester Christian is
(30:10):
doing going forward.
How has that changed, uh, theculture on campus and the
student body, and how do youforesee Rochester Christian
having so many more studentathletes year after year that
aren't necessarily coming from aChristian background?
How do you see that?
How do you see keeping thatcampus and that student body,
(30:35):
culture, christian, as we'vealways known it?
You've been there from almostthe very beginning, so you've
seen all the changes.
Just give me your perspectiveon that.
Coach Garth Pleasant (30:45):
It's just changed tremendously.
But life changes.
First of all, to address thecollege athletics Bottom line
and if my peers here, mycolleagues, don't like me saying
(31:09):
this, oh, that's too bad.
We would not be open if itwasn't for athletics at this
school.
We would not be open if itwasn't for athletics at this
school.
We would not be open.
Our athletes have, on theaverage, a higher ACT score than
the regular student and ourathletes have a higher.
(31:30):
Okay, now I made my players goto the ACE lab.
I sent a card around every weekor two with the players getting
updates about their situation.
I had three rules you had to bea class, you had to sit on the
(31:54):
front row and you had to takenotes.
Wow, that was my rule.
We have a number of kids thatmake our all academic teams and
Dr Johnson always said he wanted, he liked, athletes in the
recruiting business, our coacheshere.
(32:17):
He liked coaches in therecruiting business.
Think about our coaches.
They have to, they have torecruit a full team.
Our baseball group coach, herecruits 50 kids, yeah.
We have two basketball teams.
(32:37):
We'll have like 30 kids inbasketball, yeah.
And so I mean, think about that.
And so we're here because ofathletics.
Athletes sometimes can give abad name.
We see these Division I guys,our guys aren't Division I.
(32:59):
You know they're not primadonnas that they expect
something.
And if we do, I had a kid.
A teacher told me I had a kidsitting in a chair and he had
his foot on the chair acrossfrom him and a person came in,
wanted to walk down that aisleand the kid said go around.
I called the kid and I took hisuniform.
(33:22):
He was off the team.
Wow, I'm not tolerating that.
Yeah, you know I've gotten ridof good players, but we have a
standard to live up to.
I always said that I'm beingredundant.
When we traveled we left ourbench cleaner than when we got
(33:49):
there.
We left the locker room cleanerthan we got there, even though
we might pick up things wedidn't leave.
If we borrowed towels, we laidthe towels out and our captains
had to write a thank you note.
We go into a restaurant, youknow, and I want people to say
(34:10):
that's the politest group ofkids that we've had.
So you know I'm proud of ourathletes and what they do
academically and what they'vedone in society.
You know, I think our athleteshave become very good people in
society.
BT Irwin (34:30):
We're almost out of time.
I wonder if I could ask youwe'll do a fast break here.
Just to stick with a basketballanalogy, ask you 10 fast
questions.
These will be fast questionswith fast answers, just to wrap
up our time.
You up for that?
I'm ready.
Okay, here Question number onewho's your all-time favorite
basketball player to watchMichael Jordan?
(34:53):
Give us your most memorablethrill of victory moment and
your most haunting thrill ofvictory moment and your most
haunting agony of defeat moment.
Coach Garth Pleasant (34:59):
My greatest thrill was at Aquinas
College.
We were beating Aquinas and myassistant coach, unbeknownst to
me, put my son back in the game.
Johnny coach, unbeknownst to me, put my son back in the game.
(35:23):
Johnny Aquinas took a shot.
Johnny got the rebound.
There's like maybe 12 secondsleft and he just started
dribbling all over the court andI'm yelling what are you doing?
As the clock ticked down, five,four, three, he came right to
me dribbling the ball.
The horn sounded, he gave methe ball, hugged me.
(35:44):
It was my 500th win.
BT Irwin (35:45):
Oh, I've heard that story.
I love that story.
That is a thrill victory momentfor sure.
What about your most hauntingagony of defeat moment?
Coach Garth Pleasant (35:55):
Oh, probably 300 of them.
Ah, oh my.
Let me think we lost in thesemifinals and we would have won
the national championship thatyear too.
That game was really thenational championship and I
(36:17):
don't know what I would havedone different, but it just
haunts me.
We had a lead.
We were three up, they weredribbling the ball down court
and we fouled them.
Now there's a big debate Ifyou're three up, do you foul or
(36:40):
not foul?
I've never wanted to foul and Ihad a reason for it, but we
fouled that time.
They made two free throws.
We inbounded the ball and theyfouled us immediately and I said
to my assistant we should havegot the ball to another player.
(37:03):
He says, don't worry, the kidthat had the ball.
He said he hasn't missed a freethrow all day and I looked at
him and I glared at him andguess what?
He missed the free throw.
The ball bounded around andthey called a foul on us and we
(37:26):
ended up losing that game.
BT Irwin (37:29):
Okay, so what's the best basketball game you've ever
witnessed in person that Iwitnessed in person?
In person Could be one youcoached.
Coach Garth Pleasant (37:36):
It could be one that somebody else
coached, but for me the mostexciting game would be when we
won the national championshipand I couldn't pick one over the
other championship and Icouldn't pick one over the other
.
And I told the guys, whoeverwins the NCAA division one
championship, they will not beany more excited than you will
(37:57):
be.
That's right.
And John Horst said they wonthe NBA championship and he was
just as excited when we won ournational championship.
I mean we got on that bus andthe guys are singing.
We are the champions.
I mean that bus rocked all theway home from Oklahoma.
BT Irwin (38:19):
This is kind of related.
One of your former captains,who also happened to be my
roommate for a year, is JoshGraves, who is now senior
minister at Otter Creek Churchof Christ in Brentwood,
tennessee, and one time when wewere living together, josh told
me he had this recurring gooddream where Rochester College
somehow made it into MarchMadness and beat Purdue in the
(38:39):
tournament.
Do you have any recurringdreams, either good ones or
nightmares, that you're willingto share?
Coach Garth Pleasant (38:47):
Well, one time we were going to play U of
D and I woke up.
I was dreaming and we werebeating them and I tried to go
back and catch that dream and goto sleep, but I couldn't.
BT Irwin (39:04):
Yeah, tell us about a time when God showed up for you
in a big way.
Coach Garth Pleasant (39:12):
Oh boy, I probably could say every day
Maybe.
When I came back here I hadleft for a few years and I
thought I wanted to get out ofcoaching and Dr Gardner was the
(39:32):
president when I coached here.
And then I went south for fouryears and then I got out of
coaching one year and Dr Gardnerkept trying to get me to come
back and a man named Dean Smith,who was a dear friend, him and
(39:56):
his wife Carolyn, really workedon us and I kept saying no, no,
no.
And then I came on campus oneday and they just all came back
to me and, brad, sometimes Idon't know if it's God or if
it's coincidence.
(40:17):
I don't know if that makessense to you, but I asked Mark
Love before he came here onetime about that and he said
whether it's God or whether it'scoincidence, praise.
BT Irwin (40:33):
God, tell us what Bible verses are on your mind
the most these days?
Is there somewhere that yourmind just keeps coming back to
for some reason?
Coach Garth Pleasant (40:45):
Well, I think a lot about Ephesians that
it is by God's grace that weare saved.
There's nothing I can do tosave myself.
I think about the passage aboutmay the love of God and Jesus
(41:09):
Christ and the communion of theHoly Spirit be with you always.
And you know, I just I praythat, I think about that.
I encourage the church whereI'm at now to every morning to
say this is the day the Lord hasmade.
(41:31):
I'm going to rejoice and beglad in it.
And then I think about thepassage in Hebrews where it
tells me to focus my eyes onJesus, to try to keep focused on
Jesus.
And that's sort of tough in theworld that we live in today,
(41:51):
brad, and things happen and wewonder why.
You know, this is not thescript that I wanted and I, you
know, recently told somebody youknow well, I mentioned this my
(42:12):
wife has been sick since themid-80s.
Wow Lives in constant pain ofjust autoimmune problems
fibromyalgia, lupus andsarcoidosis.
That was diagnosed at MayoClinic and she lives on steroids
(42:34):
and I prayed so much that Godwould heal her.
And I go back to the passagethat Paul talked about in
Corinthians, where he went toGod three times and God said my
grace is sufficient, and ifthings don't go right, you know
(42:59):
God's grace is sufficient.
BT Irwin (43:00):
A last question what is the gospel according to Garth
Pleasant?
Coach Garth Pleasant (43:04):
That Jesus lived, he died, he was buried,
he was resurrected and he'scoming again.
I'm very ecumenical, you know.
I came from a very, veryconservative background and I'm
grateful for my heritage.
(43:25):
But about three weeks ago Igave a lesson on my spiritual
journey and where I am today andI was raised about, you got to
do work and I think you have towork, but you work because
(43:46):
someone loves you so much.
I was told to get it right and Ikept meeting people who were
smarter than I was and loved theLord more than I did, and they
(44:10):
read the Bible and they saw itdifferently than me.
And I was told if you'resinning, quit.
Well, I'm over 75, and that'sstill tough.
I got mad the other day, okay,and I wanted to wrestle a couple
young guys.
You know, and I've changed fromall of that If I could quit
(44:31):
sinning, then Jesus didn't haveto die on the cross.
Now I don't believe.
I keep sinning.
So grace may abound.
You know what I'm saying.
I do and I keep studying thescripture, you know, and I find
things that I once thought wasgospel.
It's not gospel.
And I realize, as my mothersaid on her deathbed, I hope
(44:56):
I've done enough.
And I said, mom, you can't doenough, and I'm angry with
preachers like myself who hasgiven you that idea.
You can't do enough, and I'mangry with preachers like myself
who has given you that idea.
You can't do enough.
That's why Jesus did it for us.
BT Irwin (45:18):
Amen.
Well, garth Pleasant is thelegendary Rochester Christian
University men's basketballcoach and preacher for Church of
Christ congregations up here inSoutheast Michigan for just as
long.
He's also the author of Don'tStub your Toe Lessons from an
Old Coach and the subject of thedocumentary Coach, make the Big
Time when You're At theChristian Chronicles.
Bobby Ross Jr recently wroteabout the weekend he spent going
(45:40):
to ball games with CoachPleasant.
I'm very jealous.
Links and more links will be inthe show notes Coach thank you
for shooting hoops with us today.
Brad, thank you and God blessyou and your work, and I'm a fan
of the Christian Chronicle.
Thank you, we appreciate you,coach.
Thanks for stopping by.
We hope that something youheard in this episode encouraged
(46:01):
, enlightened or enriched you insome way.
If it did, please pay itforward, subscribe to this
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Your subscription,recommendation and review helps
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at christianchronicleorg.
And don't forget that ourministry to inform and inspire
(46:23):
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So if you like the show and youwant to keep it going and make
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Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg.
Slash donate Until next time.
May grace and peace be yours inabundance.
Holly Linden (46:57):
The Christian Chronicle Podcast is a
production of the ChristianChronicle Inc and abundance and
President and CEO, ericTrigestad.
The Christian Chronicle Podcastis written, directed, hosted
and edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan in
Detroit, michigan, usa.
Welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast.
We are bringing you the storyshaping Church of Christ
congregations and members aroundthe world.
Here is our host, BT Irwin.
BT Irwin (00:14):
Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all,
strangers.
Welcome to the ChristianChronicle Podcast.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
The Church of Christ communityproduced some real sports
legends over the years Way toomany to list here.
A couple of examples, thoughJust a week or two ago, the
(00:35):
Christian Chronicle reviewed Dothe Right Thing, the Stallings
Standard, a documentary aboutthe life of legendary football
coach Gene Stallings, and a fewepisodes back on this show we
featured Colt McCoy, one of thegreatest college football
players of all time, a Church ofChrist sports legend that is
familiar to a lot of folks uphere in Michigan, where I live.
May not be as familiar to folksin other parts of the country,
(00:57):
but you're about to find out whyhe should be.
In fact, the ChristianChronicles' Bobby Ross Jr
recently spent a whole weekendwith him and wrote a story about
it.
You'll find that link in theshow notes.
He is Garth Pleasant, theretired head men's basketball
coach at what is now RochesterChristian University in
Rochester Hills, michigan.
Coach Pleasant led the Warriorsfor 38 years, earning 720 wins,
(01:20):
making 19 national tournamentappearances and winning four
national championships, and ifthat doesn't impress you, maybe
this well, out of all the gamesthat Coach Pleasant coached in
those 38 years, not one of themwas a home game.
In all that time RochesterChristian University did not
have a home basketball court.
Coach Pleasant's story recentlymade it into its own
(01:42):
documentary film Coach, make theBig Time when You're At.
He also wrote a book Don't BeAfraid to Stub your Toe Lessons
from an Old Coach.
You'll find links in the shownotes.
Coach Pleasant also served asthe minister with the Lake Orion
Church of Christ in Lake Orion,Michigan, for 30 years.
He retired from there but isstill preaching at the Horton
Road Church of Christ in Jackson, michigan.
(02:02):
Coach Pleasant, thank you fordribbling on in here today.
Thank you for having me, brad.
And before I get into thequestions, I have to disclose to
our audience that Coach and Ihave known each other for 30
years.
I was a student at MichiganChristian College from 1994 to
1996, and then I did stints asan employee at Rochester College
and then Rochester Universitythree times over the last 23
(02:24):
years.
So listener understand thatthis interview may sound a
little different from most ofthe others we do here.
It's because the subject and Iare friends that go way back.
And with that Coach.
Let's get down to the questions.
I'm going to start with this.
You coached for 38 years, but Ithink you've probably preached
for even longer.
So as long as you were coachingat Michigan Christian Rochester
(02:47):
, you were preaching at LakeOrient Church of Christ, and I
think you're still preaching now, just for a different
congregation.
So you were always in asituation where you could do
both coach and preach.
But if you had to choose one orthe other, which one would you
have chosen, and why?
Coach Garth Pleasant (03:02):
Without question, I would have chosen
being at Rochester ChristianUniversity.
I was the Lake Orion ministerfor 29 years and 11 months.
Wow, and why I would choosethat?
I've often said this.
There's two or three reasons.
Number one you always wonelders meeting away from being
(03:26):
fired at a church, and so I knewI could say what I believed and
I didn't have to preach a lie,because if they fired me I still
was putting food on my family'stable, yeah, but brad.
The real reason is that I wasable to be with young people
five days a week in theclassroom on the court coaching,
(03:52):
and their lives are beingmolded at that time and I felt
that maybe I could have agreater influence on young
people than I could old peoplelike myself, who are hard to
change.
BT Irwin (04:09):
Remind me what was your first year as head coach at
what was then MichiganChristian College 1972-73.
Coach Garth Pleasant (04:16):
I started working here in 1971, and I took
over the basketball job in 1972.
BT Irwin (04:23):
Okay, and you were 23 years old.
Coach Garth Pleasant (04:27):
Well, when I came here, I was 22.
I was 23 when I startedcoaching.
BT Irwin (04:31):
Okay, so 23 years old.
I remember what that was liketo be 23.
You're just starting out.
At that time, when you took thehead coaching position there at
Michigan Christian College, didyou set a goal to get a
coaching job at a bigger schoolin a few years, or did you think
?
No, I want to stay here therest of my life and build this
program.
Coach Garth Pleasant (04:52):
You know it was my dream job when I came
to school here in 67,.
The institution had atremendous impact on my
spiritual life.
Now.
I had great spiritual parents,an upbringing, but there was
something about being here and Ilove this place.
(05:15):
I fell in love with it and Iremember telling Dr Jones the
late Dr Jones I would like tocome back here and coach one day
.
And so that opportunity aroseand I was young and probably too
young.
I was so young that I thought Iknew everything about coaching
(05:37):
and I was going to out coacheverybody when do you think you
actually became a good coach?
I was still trying to become agood coach my last year of
coaching.
To be honest with you, everyyear I would work to try to make
myself a better coach.
I always liked the idea that Iwould fire myself after every
(05:58):
year and try to find out why Ishould come back.
Now, being the athleticdirector, I knew I was going to
hire myself back, but always tryto look at things that you can
improve on.
BT Irwin (06:13):
So let me ask the question a different way.
I reckon at some point, at somepoint along the way, someone
from another school had tonotice you and you had to, along
the way, receive invitations toapply for other jobs elsewhere.
And I reckon maybe some ofthose schools were Christian
(06:33):
schools or private.
You know private Christianschools where you would have had
the opportunity to form youngmen the same way you were at
Michigan, christian Rochester.
Did those opportunities evercome along and what made you
pass them up?
Coach Garth Pleasant (06:48):
They came along both at the collegiate
level and even at high schoollevel around here.
It was because of my love forthis institution, brad, and that
might be hard for people tounderstand, you know, but you
know I mean I love this place.
(07:08):
It's been my life.
My wife and I.
We were dorm parents.
I stayed here because I couldinclude my kids in my coaching.
I would take my boys with me togames and I took Kim sometimes,
and the bus would pull up infront of the house and we'd go
(07:33):
out and get on it and just greatmemories, great family memories
.
My wife kept score at times andshe washed the uniforms times
and she washed the uniforms wefed kids and we kept kids in our
house and I love theinstitution, yeah.
BT Irwin (07:52):
So let's talk about those kids for a second.
The subtitle of the documentarythat our mutual friend, ryan
Coral, made about you a coupleof years ago is make the big
time where you're at, and thatis as good a subtitle as anyone
could write for your life.
In fact, that's been one ofyour mottos over your entire
career at Rochester.
For those in our audience whoaren't familiar, you did not
(08:12):
coach a single home basketballgame over your entire career,
because Rochester did not have abasketball court for its home
games and the practice gym, aswe both know, was kind of a dump
.
You managed to recruit goodplayers and get great results
out of them.
Your teams always won year inand year out, and several of
(08:35):
them brought home nationalchampionships.
So you clearly discovered thesecret of turning the stone.
The builders rejected into thecapstone.
What is that secret?
How did you do it?
Coach Garth Pleasant (08:53):
Wow, first of all, make the Big Time when
you Are was a book I read,frosty Westerby.
I believe the author was Brad.
I never apologized to anyonefor what I didn't have.
I knew the kids I recruitedthat their middle school gyms
were much nicer than ourpractice gym.
When I came here we only hadtwo baskets.
(09:15):
I asked the president if Icould raise money to put up some
side goals and he said no.
Put up some side goals, and hesaid no.
And so what I did?
I went to Home Depot, got foursheets of plywood.
(09:37):
I had the maintenancesupervisor cut it into a fan
shape backboard, put a rim on itand bolted it to the walls down
there you can still see theholes where it was bolted, and
so that gave me four morebaskets.
The floor would warp and we cutit out and we put a piece of
plywood down and varnish it.
(09:59):
That floor set on concrete.
You know there was no give.
Most floors now have a subfloorthat was right on concrete.
Wow, and it was so cold in thatgym, so cold and the floor
(10:21):
would be slippery.
But we recruited kids thatusually didn't have another
option, brad.
But they were good kids andthey were good players and we
tried to make them betterplayers and we tried to recruit
kids that would fit into oursystem.
(10:44):
Okay, when I recruited a kid, Ihardly talked about basketball.
I talked about our twocornerstones.
Number one was our characterand the second cornerstone was
academics.
I wanted them to get a degree.
(11:06):
I got a degree and look whatI've been able to do.
And the second thing I wantedthem.
I even coached my own son and Iwanted him to leave here a
better person than when he camein and we talked about those
things and I hardly duringrecruiting I hardly ever talked
(11:28):
about basketball.
I talked about buildingcharacter and getting your
degree and I was a little toughon the kids, I think in some of
those things, brad, we endedevery practice with a prayer.
Every practice we got togetherand we prayed and I told them
(11:48):
all the time make good decisions.
Josh Graves wrote this in anarticle he had wrote one time
called.
I Will Always Call Him Coach,very dear to me, and he made the
comment I always told them Iwould rather not win a game and
be in heaven with every one ofyou than not to lose a game and
(12:12):
not be in heaven with one of you.
We tried to recruit kids thatwould fall into that category
and it's amazing sometimes howkids developed and how their
lives were changed.
I was meeting with two captainsone year before the season.
One was a Catholic, but onlywent to church maybe once or
(12:37):
twice a year and the other wasnothing.
And before we left CaribouCoffee, I said tell me about
your spiritual life.
And they both said Coach, Ithink about it a lot more than I
(12:57):
ever used to.
And during that year the youngman who did not have any
religious affiliation came in myoffice, closed the door and
said coach, my dad has cancer.
Would you pray with me?
You know, and the um, and so Imean that's greater than winning
any game, brad, yes, yeah.
(13:19):
So we tried to recruit kidsthat would fit into our system,
kids who played hard.
Coach has always talked abouthow hard we played.
Our practices were brutal,always talked about how hard we
played.
BT Irwin (13:36):
Our practices were brutal.
We practiced harder than weplayed.
I've heard you talk about thisa little bit.
Before you know, when you'rerecruiting players, there had to
be some kind of a calculus orformula that you use to decide
whether to go for a kid or not.
And obviously you want to wingames and you won a lot of games
.
And so you said a moment agothat you would recruit kids that
nobody else wanted, and yet youmust have seen the potential in
(13:59):
them to be winners.
Did you ever have situationswhere you felt like you had to
walk away from a player thatwould be a really good
basketball player but maybe notfit the character of the program
, or where you took a risk on akid who maybe didn't have the
talent but had the character andyou thought maybe I can coach
(14:19):
this kid up to a high level ofof performance?
Tell us a little bit how youweighed each each recruit and
figured out how, uh, whether youwanted them on your team or not
.
Coach Garth Pleasant (14:30):
Okay, great question.
Sometimes kids, they wouldeliminate themselves while I was
at the gym watching them playhigh school by their attitude,
various things like that.
I had a former player who was acoach call me.
(14:52):
I had a former player who was acoach call me.
He was a junior college coachand he had a junior college kid
that was All-American.
That went to Division I schooland the kid was leaving and my
former player said would youwant this kid?
He's 6'8", he averaged 15 and11.
(15:12):
I said yeah, and so we got thekid on campus.
I called his college coach andI started to tell him a little
bit about our program and hejust stopped me.
He said, coach, he'll be betterthan any player that you've
ever coached player that you'veever coached and he would have
been Brad.
He was 6'8", he had Popeye arms.
(15:35):
I was going to be a good coach.
One more year, okay, and so hewasn't going to graduate in the
one year he had.
And I went to our president, drJohnson, and I said here's the
situation.
And Dr Johnson said go aheadand recruit him and maybe you
can change his life.
(15:55):
I said okay.
So we had the kid on campus.
We got him in classes.
The next day, my assistant,george, called me down.
He said we might have a problem.
And I went down there and ayoung man was there.
And the young man says I'venever done my college, my home.
(16:18):
Let me back up.
I've never done my studies.
People did it for me and I sayswell, we will do all we can for
you.
We have an ACE lab and we willwork with you, but you're going
to do your own work.
His second problem was you knowhis I'm trying to think what he
(16:43):
said his social life, my sociallife.
Well, I knew what he meant andI said oh, I've got a great
social life.
He meant, you know parties andgirls and things that we didn't
tolerate here.
And so we talked and eventhough, even though he was going
(17:05):
to make me a really good coach,I said you know what?
This isn't fair to you and it'snot fair to me.
I took out my credit card.
We bought him a one-way ticketback home to one of the
Carolinas.
That was the last time we sawhim.
But you know, a cancer willdestroy you.
(17:27):
I don't care how good they are,I don't care how good they are,
a cancer will destroy you.
Yes, I recruited kids that Ididn't know how good they were
going to be.
One of them was Mike Tobin.
And Mike Tobin, when he firstcame to us, he was going up
(17:48):
against Mike Robinson and BennyThurot every day and they were
just beating him up.
When he's a senior he was ahoss.
He worked and worked and worked.
He was all-American.
He was the most valuable playerat the national tournament.
(18:10):
I went into the locker room athalftime and we were behind and
I was upset.
I know you mentioned that.
You heard me yelling one timeand you didn't come in the
locker room.
I was upset and I told the team.
I said if anyone takes a shotbefore Mike touches the ball,
(18:34):
unless it's a wide open layup,you will come out of the game
and you will sit on the bench.
We gave Mike the ball and wewon by 15 points.
But he was somebody you know.
His dad would say oh, I don'tknow if he's good enough to play
for you.
You love dads like that,because most dads think their
(18:57):
kids much better than theyreally are.
Big Benny, I love Benny.
Benny was from Detroit andthere's a reason we called him
Big Benny.
And I never in 38 years, Inever cussed at a player and I
didn't let them cuss in front ofme.
(19:20):
Benny came off the court I'vetold this story a lot and he
drops the F bomb loud.
It's the first time out of thesecond half in a close game.
I said Benny, sit down.
And so the team went back out.
I says Benny, you're not goingto play the rest of the game,
(19:40):
even if we lose.
You're not going back in Now.
This is an All-American, thisis a 6'6" 260-pound I mean beast
and we won the game.
I could call Benny right now onthe phone.
I could get him on the phoneright now and say Benny, do you
remember when you came off thecourt and you dropped the F-bomb
(20:03):
?
Yeah, coach, I sure do.
I said how many more times didyou do that?
He says none, coach, none.
BT Irwin (20:10):
And before we hung up I guarantee he would say I love
you coach, cause I'm not anathlete and I I've never coached
, but I am a dad and, uh, youknow, I have a 12 year old son
and so, uh, you know how do you,how do you push the players
hard on one hand, you know,psych them up without
discouraging them or or psychingthem out, are you?
(20:32):
How do you balance that, thatgrace and that tough love, to
get all you can, all you can getout of there is without pushing
them too hard to where they getdiscouraged and and quit?
Great question.
Coach Garth Pleasant (20:47):
You have to look at every kid as an
individual.
Okay, let me give you anexample.
I could just get after my son,johnny, and his attitude is,
I'll show you.
I get after his good friend,mike Robinson, two-time
(21:09):
All-American, maybe the bestplayer we've ever, one of the
best players we've ever had, andhe would pout and I had to come
back and say something good tohim hey man, you really did good
here, you know, but every kidis different.
The one thing we demanded, wedemanded that they gave a total
(21:38):
effort.
Okay, I mean we practiced hard,but again, every kid is
different.
My son Johnny, he'd rip yourhead, I probably shouldn't say
that, but I mean he was onetough cookie.
(21:59):
His son, logan is a really goodplayer but shows no emotion at
all.
Ricky Dorn, great player thatwe had, 6'10 kid, two-time
All-American, I never could findhis hot button.
Brad, is that right?
You know, he was Ricky, youknow, and he just, I mean he was
(22:24):
a good player, but as far aslike getting him fired up, you
know, and things like that, hejust went out and played.
Every kid is different and Ithink sometimes we overemphasize
pep talks.
Okay, we're playing for thenational championship game.
(22:48):
Why do I need to give a peptalk?
Okay, a couple times I justtold a funny joke, said let's go
, and I used to tell the guysthere's no pressure today.
Pressure is guys your age overin iraq getting shot at now.
That's pressure.
(23:08):
This is a game and um, I,number one, wanted them to have
fun.
I wanted them to have fun.
Number two, I wanted them todevelop themselves as players
and I thought doing those thingstook care of the third thing
(23:29):
winning.
BT Irwin (23:29):
I want to ask you a little bit more about the way
that college sports is changing.
38 years as a coach, you'veseen a lot of changes since 1972
.
And that doesn't include yourdays as a college player at
Michigan, christian and Lipscomb, I believe, right.
So you're, you're involved withthe sports management program
(23:51):
at Rochester Christian.
It's a good one, and yourecently hosted a public program
on how college sports ischanging.
I think that program focused onhow college sports is changing.
I think that program focused onhow paying student athletes and
changes to the transfer portalrules are turning college sports
into something completelydifferent than what we've been
used to.
How do you anticipate thatchanges in college sports are
(24:13):
going to trickle down to affectschools like Rochester?
Sports are going to trickledown to affect schools like
Rochester.
Do you think that in this newcollege sports economy, you'd be
able to do the same things nowat Rochester that you were able
to do over the course of yourcareer?
I don't think so.
Coach Garth Pleasant (24:29):
Wow, it has hurt high school sports
because a coach doesn't go tolook for a high school kid to
recruit.
Right now he goes to the portal.
Okay, john Beeline once said ifhe was still coaching he would
recruit the MAC, theMid-American Conference, they're
(24:53):
all conference team, right,right.
They're all conference team,right, right.
And the guy from OhioUniversity he made the comment,
he says some people said whathappened to your kicker?
He says I know what happened tomy kicker.
Alabama stole my kicker.
Okay, michigan stole theirpunter from Arkansas State.
(25:20):
I believe, yeah, it's out ofcontrol.
And I could see why.
Go back when Mike Robinson wasa freshman.
I didn't redshirt him because Iwas sure if I redshirted him, a
Mac school was going to come inand get him Really Yep.
(25:40):
And I think that can happentoday.
I know we have a player on theteam right now that a good
friend of mine, who really likesus and he wouldn't do anything
to hurt us.
But he told me if that kidwants to leave, please tell me.
Okay.
Not only does it trickle downto us, this is trickling down to
(26:06):
high school.
Wow, high school kids are goingto be starting to get paid.
Your team in Columbus spent $22million on their team this year
.
Yes, they recruited aquarterback out of Texas his
(26:30):
senior year.
He didn't even go to school hissenior year.
They recruited him.
He got $2 or $3 million fromthem.
Never took a snap, or maybetook one or two snaps, joined
the portal and went back toTexas and was their starting
quarterback.
Ewers or whatever.
His name is, quinn Ewers, yeah,yeah, I mean, it's a business
(26:54):
For me.
It's getting where I don't evenenjoy college sports anymore.
Rochester Christian Universityis the true college sport.
Our kids are here.
They get some scholarship money.
BT Irwin (27:14):
They're here because they love the game and I don't
know where it's going to go Ifthe situation you've described
in college athletics continuesthe way it has, how is that
going to affect schools likeRochester Christian that have
made intercollegiate athleticsso important to their revenue
(27:36):
model?
And then there's a follow-upquestion to that.
So I'll let you answer thatfirst question and then I'll
I'll go to the second one.
Coach Garth Pleasant (27:42):
Okay, I, I don't think it's going to
affect schools like us that much.
We could lose a basketballplayer.
Okay, I don't think we're goingto lose anybody else in another
sport.
I don't think we're going tolose anybody else in another
sport, and so I don't think it'sgoing to hurt us that much.
(28:04):
I don't think you're going tosee those big schools.
I think you're going to seethem stealing basketball players
and football players.
That's where all the money is.
I could see a Division IIschool saying that guy can play
for us see a Division II schoolsaying that guy can play for us.
BT Irwin (28:21):
Two trends that have been going on right over the
last few years in schools thatcome out of the Church of Christ
tradition.
One is that the number ofstudents who enroll in those
schools that come out of theChurch of Christ is declining as
a total percentage of thestudent body.
And we had a an episode, uh,last november, october, november
where we looked at, you know,even the schools down in the
(28:42):
bible belt, uh, the ones thatare strongest, uh, in their
connections with church ofchrist congregations, uh, the
percent of their total studentbody that comes from the church
of christ is shrinking.
And then you have some of thesmaller schools, like Rochester,
christian, york, faulkner, thatare making up for that by
(29:03):
recruiting not only studentsoutside the Church of Christ
tradition but, like I said amoment ago, starting a lot of
intercollegiate sports andbringing in a lot of student
athletes in order to bolster thebottom line.
We had an interview with MitchHenry at Faulkner University
last fall, I think, where wetalked about how Faulkner is
(29:25):
integrating those studentathletes into campus culture and
campus life.
So this question is building onthat interview we had with Mitch
Henry, you and I were both atRochester College back when Dr
Johnson was there in the 90s,and Dr Johnson is the one who
saw that we needed to recruitfrom beyond the Church of Christ
community in order forRochester to be a viable
(29:49):
four-year school, and you and Iboth saw how that changed the
campus culture and the studentbody, and it was.
It was a very positive change.
And now, uh, over the last fewyears Rochester Christian has
been, uh, we started a lot ofnew intercollegiate programs and
recruited a lot of studentathletes, and that's going to
continue to be a big part ofwhat Rochester Christian is
(30:10):
doing going forward.
How has that changed, uh, theculture on campus and the
student body, and how do youforesee Rochester Christian
having so many more studentathletes year after year that
aren't necessarily coming from aChristian background?
How do you see that?
How do you see keeping thatcampus and that student body,
(30:35):
culture, christian, as we'vealways known it?
You've been there from almostthe very beginning, so you've
seen all the changes.
Just give me your perspectiveon that.
Coach Garth Pleasant (30:45):
It's just changed tremendously.
But life changes.
First of all, to address thecollege athletics Bottom line
and if my peers here, mycolleagues, don't like me saying
(31:09):
this, oh, that's too bad.
We would not be open if itwasn't for athletics at this
school.
We would not be open if itwasn't for athletics at this
school.
We would not be open.
Our athletes have, on theaverage, a higher ACT score than
the regular student and ourathletes have a higher.
(31:30):
Okay, now I made my players goto the ACE lab.
I sent a card around every weekor two with the players getting
updates about their situation.
I had three rules you had to bea class, you had to sit on the
(31:54):
front row and you had to takenotes.
Wow, that was my rule.
We have a number of kids thatmake our all academic teams and
Dr Johnson always said he wanted, he liked, athletes in the
recruiting business, our coacheshere.
(32:17):
He liked coaches in therecruiting business.
Think about our coaches.
They have to, they have torecruit a full team.
Our baseball group coach, herecruits 50 kids, yeah.
We have two basketball teams.
(32:37):
We'll have like 30 kids inbasketball, yeah.
And so I mean, think about that.
And so we're here because ofathletics.
Athletes sometimes can give abad name.
We see these Division I guys,our guys aren't Division I.
(32:59):
You know they're not primadonnas that they expect
something.
And if we do, I had a kid.
A teacher told me I had a kidsitting in a chair and he had
his foot on the chair acrossfrom him and a person came in,
wanted to walk down that aisleand the kid said go around.
I called the kid and I took hisuniform.
(33:22):
He was off the team.
Wow, I'm not tolerating that.
Yeah, you know I've gotten ridof good players, but we have a
standard to live up to.
I always said that I'm beingredundant.
When we traveled we left ourbench cleaner than when we got
(33:49):
there.
We left the locker room cleanerthan we got there, even though
we might pick up things wedidn't leave.
If we borrowed towels, we laidthe towels out and our captains
had to write a thank you note.
We go into a restaurant, youknow, and I want people to say
(34:10):
that's the politest group ofkids that we've had.
So you know I'm proud of ourathletes and what they do
academically and what they'vedone in society.
You know, I think our athleteshave become very good people in
society.
BT Irwin (34:30):
We're almost out of time.
I wonder if I could ask youwe'll do a fast break here.
Just to stick with a basketballanalogy, ask you 10 fast
questions.
These will be fast questionswith fast answers, just to wrap
up our time.
You up for that?
I'm ready.
Okay, here Question number onewho's your all-time favorite
basketball player to watchMichael Jordan?
(34:53):
Give us your most memorablethrill of victory moment and
your most haunting thrill ofvictory moment and your most
haunting agony of defeat moment.
Coach Garth Pleasant (34:59):
My greatest thrill was at Aquinas
College.
We were beating Aquinas and myassistant coach, unbeknownst to
me, put my son back in the game.
Johnny coach, unbeknownst to me, put my son back in the game.
(35:23):
Johnny Aquinas took a shot.
Johnny got the rebound.
There's like maybe 12 secondsleft and he just started
dribbling all over the court andI'm yelling what are you doing?
As the clock ticked down, five,four, three, he came right to
me dribbling the ball.
The horn sounded, he gave methe ball, hugged me.
(35:44):
It was my 500th win.
BT Irwin (35:45):
Oh, I've heard that story.
I love that story.
That is a thrill victory momentfor sure.
What about your most hauntingagony of defeat moment?
Coach Garth Pleasant (35:55):
Oh, probably 300 of them.
Ah, oh my.
Let me think we lost in thesemifinals and we would have won
the national championship thatyear too.
That game was really thenational championship and I
(36:17):
don't know what I would havedone different, but it just
haunts me.
We had a lead.
We were three up, they weredribbling the ball down court
and we fouled them.
Now there's a big debate Ifyou're three up, do you foul or
(36:40):
not foul?
I've never wanted to foul and Ihad a reason for it, but we
fouled that time.
They made two free throws.
We inbounded the ball and theyfouled us immediately and I said
to my assistant we should havegot the ball to another player.
(37:03):
He says, don't worry, the kidthat had the ball.
He said he hasn't missed a freethrow all day and I looked at
him and I glared at him andguess what?
He missed the free throw.
The ball bounded around andthey called a foul on us and we
(37:26):
ended up losing that game.
BT Irwin (37:29):
Okay, so what's the best basketball game you've ever
witnessed in person that Iwitnessed in person?
In person Could be one youcoached.
Coach Garth Pleasant (37:36):
It could be one that somebody else
coached, but for me the mostexciting game would be when we
won the national championshipand I couldn't pick one over the
other championship and Icouldn't pick one over the other
.
And I told the guys, whoeverwins the NCAA division one
championship, they will not beany more excited than you will
(37:57):
be.
That's right.
And John Horst said they wonthe NBA championship and he was
just as excited when we won ournational championship.
I mean we got on that bus andthe guys are singing.
We are the champions.
I mean that bus rocked all theway home from Oklahoma.
BT Irwin (38:19):
This is kind of related.
One of your former captains,who also happened to be my
roommate for a year, is JoshGraves, who is now senior
minister at Otter Creek Churchof Christ in Brentwood,
tennessee, and one time when wewere living together, josh told
me he had this recurring gooddream where Rochester College
somehow made it into MarchMadness and beat Purdue in the
(38:39):
tournament.
Do you have any recurringdreams, either good ones or
nightmares, that you're willingto share?
Coach Garth Pleasant (38:47):
Well, one time we were going to play U of
D and I woke up.
I was dreaming and we werebeating them and I tried to go
back and catch that dream and goto sleep, but I couldn't.
BT Irwin (39:04):
Yeah, tell us about a time when God showed up for you
in a big way.
Coach Garth Pleasant (39:12):
Oh boy, I probably could say every day
Maybe.
When I came back here I hadleft for a few years and I
thought I wanted to get out ofcoaching and Dr Gardner was the
(39:32):
president when I coached here.
And then I went south for fouryears and then I got out of
coaching one year and Dr Gardnerkept trying to get me to come
back and a man named Dean Smith,who was a dear friend, him and
(39:56):
his wife Carolyn, really workedon us and I kept saying no, no,
no.
And then I came on campus oneday and they just all came back
to me and, brad, sometimes Idon't know if it's God or if
it's coincidence.
(40:17):
I don't know if that makessense to you, but I asked Mark
Love before he came here onetime about that and he said
whether it's God or whether it'scoincidence, praise.
BT Irwin (40:33):
God, tell us what Bible verses are on your mind
the most these days?
Is there somewhere that yourmind just keeps coming back to
for some reason?
Coach Garth Pleasant (40:45):
Well, I think a lot about Ephesians that
it is by God's grace that weare saved.
There's nothing I can do tosave myself.
I think about the passage aboutmay the love of God and Jesus
(41:09):
Christ and the communion of theHoly Spirit be with you always.
And you know, I just I praythat, I think about that.
I encourage the church whereI'm at now to every morning to
say this is the day the Lord hasmade.
(41:31):
I'm going to rejoice and beglad in it.
And then I think about thepassage in Hebrews where it
tells me to focus my eyes onJesus, to try to keep focused on
Jesus.
And that's sort of tough in theworld that we live in today,
(41:51):
brad, and things happen and wewonder why.
You know, this is not thescript that I wanted and I, you
know, recently told somebody youknow well, I mentioned this my
(42:12):
wife has been sick since themid-80s.
Wow Lives in constant pain ofjust autoimmune problems
fibromyalgia, lupus andsarcoidosis.
That was diagnosed at MayoClinic and she lives on steroids
(42:34):
and I prayed so much that Godwould heal her.
And I go back to the passagethat Paul talked about in
Corinthians, where he went toGod three times and God said my
grace is sufficient, and ifthings don't go right, you know
(42:59):
God's grace is sufficient.
BT Irwin (43:00):
A last question what is the gospel according to Garth
Pleasant?
Coach Garth Pleasant (43:04):
That Jesus lived, he died, he was buried,
he was resurrected and he'scoming again.
I'm very ecumenical, you know.
I came from a very, veryconservative background and I'm
grateful for my heritage.
(43:25):
But about three weeks ago Igave a lesson on my spiritual
journey and where I am today andI was raised about, you got to
do work and I think you have towork, but you work because
(43:46):
someone loves you so much.
I was told to get it right and Ikept meeting people who were
smarter than I was and loved theLord more than I did, and they
(44:10):
read the Bible and they saw itdifferently than me.
And I was told if you'resinning, quit.
Well, I'm over 75, and that'sstill tough.
I got mad the other day, okay,and I wanted to wrestle a couple
young guys.
You know, and I've changed fromall of that If I could quit
(44:31):
sinning, then Jesus didn't haveto die on the cross.
Now I don't believe.
I keep sinning.
So grace may abound.
You know what I'm saying.
I do and I keep studying thescripture, you know, and I find
things that I once thought wasgospel.
It's not gospel.
And I realize, as my mothersaid on her deathbed, I hope
(44:56):
I've done enough.
And I said, mom, you can't doenough, and I'm angry with
preachers like myself who hasgiven you that idea.
You can't do enough, and I'mangry with preachers like myself
who has given you that idea.
You can't do enough.
That's why Jesus did it for us.
BT Irwin (45:18):
Amen.
Well, garth Pleasant is thelegendary Rochester Christian
University men's basketballcoach and preacher for Church of
Christ congregations up here inSoutheast Michigan for just as
long.
He's also the author of Don'tStub your Toe Lessons from an
Old Coach and the subject of thedocumentary Coach, make the Big
Time when You're At theChristian Chronicles.
Bobby Ross Jr recently wroteabout the weekend he spent going
(45:40):
to ball games with CoachPleasant.
I'm very jealous.
Links and more links will be inthe show notes Coach thank you
for shooting hoops with us today.
Brad, thank you and God blessyou and your work, and I'm a fan
of the Christian Chronicle.
Thank you, we appreciate you,coach.
Thanks for stopping by.
We hope that something youheard in this episode encouraged
(46:01):
, enlightened or enriched you insome way.
If it did, please pay itforward, subscribe to this
podcast and share it with afriend, recommend and review it
wherever you listen to yourfavorite podcasts.
Your subscription,recommendation and review helps
us reach more people.
Please send your comments,ideas and suggestions to podcast
at christianchronicleorg.
And don't forget that ourministry to inform and inspire
(46:23):
Christians and congregationsaround the world is a nonprofit
ministry that relies on thegenerosity of people like you.
So if you like the show and youwant to keep it going and make
it better, please make atax-deductible gift to the
Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg.
Slash donate Until next time.
May grace and peace be yours inabundance.
Holly Linden (46:57):
The Christian Chronicle Podcast is a
production of the ChristianChronicle Inc and abundance and
President and CEO, ericTrigestad.
The Christian Chronicle Podcastis written, directed, hosted
and edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan in
Detroit, michigan, usa.
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