October 16, 2024 • 30 mins
How to STOP Obsessing Over Your Children’s Weakness
Christy-Faith and Dr. Kathy Koch explore the importance of understanding children's learning styles, the detrimental effects of perfectionism, and the debate between gentle and authoritarian parenting styles. The conversation emphasizes the need for resilience and character development in children, as well as the significance of motivation and valuing learning over grades.
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Takeaways:
- Perfectionism can stem from pride and emotional immaturity.
- Children need to struggle to appreciate their victories.
- The goal of parenting is to cultivate beautiful human beings.
About today’s guest:
Dr. Kathy Koch (“cook”) is the Founder of Celebrate Kids. She has spoken to thousands of parents, teachers, and children in over 25 countries. Kirk Cameron chose her as an expert in two recent documentaries and she is also a popular guest on many radio talk shows and podcasts. She podcasts at “Facing the Dark” and she is the author of seven books published by Moody. Dr. Kathy earned a PhD in reading and educational psychology from Purdue University.
Find Dr. Kathy Koch here:
- Website: https://CelebrateKids.com
- Facebook: https://facebook.com/CelebrateKidsInc
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Kathy Koch (00:00):
It's valuable to kinda step back. What toys do
they play with? What do they dowhen they get into trouble? What
subject matter do they do wellat? When they do talk, what do
they talk about?
When they ask questions, what dothey ask about? These are some
ways that we can figure it out.
Christy-Faith (00:12):
Welcome to the Christy-Faith Show where we
share game changing ideas withintentional parents like you.
I'm your host, Christy Faith,experienced educational adviser
and homeschool enthusiast.Together, we'll explore ways to
enrich and transform both yourlife and the lives of your
(00:33):
children. Welcome back to part2. In this episode, we'll
continue delving deeper intogame changing ideas for
intentional parents like you.
So grab your coffee, find acomfy spot, and let's dive right
in. Yes. And you also mention inyour writing that we can
paralyze our kids' intelligence.And and what's fascinating to me
is at our center, we had alearning center where we,
(00:55):
educated the children of alisters and billionaires in Los
Angeles. And these parents wouldhave their kids in extremely
rigorous private schools andthen we were hired to they would
have diagnosed learningdisabilities and we were hired
basically to do a private IEPand execute the private IEP in
our center.
And I remember seeing these kidswho hated being at school just
(01:18):
to come to our center to have towork on stuff that, honestly, we
could get it better, but it'snever gonna be right. Okay. So
let me give you an example. Thekid was struggling in math.
Okay?
And what did he have to do? Hehad to come and come to our
center and get math tutoring andmath remediation and then do the
(01:39):
summer math to make sure thathe's ready for the next grade
and and this and that and theother. And sometimes I would
just think this is part of myawakening in my own journey is
can we just let this kid gooutside? Like, he's not gonna be
a doctor. We know this.
We know this. And it really ithurt my soul to see childhoods
(02:01):
being robbed with this intensivefocus on all of their
weaknesses. I I feel like, and Iwant you guys to hear that
that's listening. We have asociety that obsesses over our
children's weaknesses. And thisis why I love what you do,
Kathy.
I'm so inspired because you areabout celebrating their
(02:25):
strengths and finding even lateron vocations in their later life
that honors this, how they'renaturally inclined. Now if
someone is very, what is it, thephysical, right, it becomes a
carpenter. Do they need mathskills? Yes. Yes.
They do need math skills, butthey don't need the math skills
of someone that is in APCalculus. Right? And so I think
(02:49):
that's why this is so empoweringfor families. It kinda helps us
step back and see the forest forthe trees. Like, what's our main
goal here?
Right? And and I want to talk toyou about something that, and I
hope this is I don't think thisis self indulgent because I hear
this all of the time. I talkabout this in the first chapter
(03:09):
of my book, how I am arecovering perfectionist. I was
raised in the system. My sisterhad profound learning
disabilities.
I was praised for how smart Iwas and my A's and I just, oh,
we don't have to worry aboutChristy. And then the focus was
on my sister. By the way, I havefull permission to talk about
(03:30):
her. We are best friends. Andshe loves she actually loves how
her story empowers families.
And also, she loves how thejuxtaposition between our
childhoods can really openparents' minds to see, Okay,
when there's a gifted child,this is what can happen. And
we're all gifted. But when Iwhen you're gifted in the way
(03:52):
society tells you is worthy,right? You're it looks
different. I want to clarifythat very specifically.
But I want you to speak a littlebit to perfectionism. I will
say, I think in homeschooling,it is a major hurdle that
parents do not know how to getover. When a child sees a
problem, automatically sees thisone's gonna be hard, and then
the mom gets pushed back. Shegets tantrums. She gets
(04:14):
resistance.
Can you get to the root of thata little bit? Before we get to
granular, like, how to help withperfectionism, would you just
speak to what's going onemotionally first?
Dr. Kathy Koch (04:25):
Those are great great observations and great
questions. Perfectionism isoften pride. It's often an
emotional immaturity where theycannot process this idea that
they can't get it right thefirst time. Sometimes laziness
is very much rooted here. Theydon't wanna have to work hard.
(04:47):
Nowadays, if we have allowed ouryoung children on devices, they
are absolutely going to leantoward perfectionism because
everything on the phone is soeasy. You can win any game you
play. You exotic games you mightlose. You know, there's you
know, they beep and they buzzand they light up when you
write. They give you a secondchance.
So I really ache for today'skids who I think are even
(05:09):
developing a perfectionisticperspective about life, maybe
earlier than in the old days. Itis a cousin to procrastination.
If you and your kids struggle toget started or struggle to
finish, that's almost alwaysindicative of fear that they
won't satisfy you. I I don't saythis in a in a harsh way, but
I'll be honest with you,Christy, that what I've noticed
(05:31):
too is that sometimes what yousay is unconditional love isn't.
And what I mean by that is youmight say to your kids, really,
anything's okay, you know, doyour best.
But when they miss 3 problems,you don't behave like it was
their best. In fact, now wasthat your best? Or I'm, you
know, maybe you imply or youeven say, hey, I'm disappointed
with the 3 mistakes. And again,you have a right to be
(05:53):
disappointed with 3 mistakes ifyou have proof that with more
effort, diligence, perseverance,they could have had a perfect
score. So sometimes it's DNA,there sometimes it's DNA.
I was raised by, my dad was anengineer, a German engineer, and
Dave and I are grateful for thehigh standards that we were
raised with. And yet, if Davewere here with me, we would both
(06:16):
say to you that my dad was notthe kind of guy who liked, lazy
mistakes. He was not panicked bytrue mistakes when he knows we
had studied and tried hard, butwe just made we missed the mark.
So I think our background is apowerful thing there.
Perfectionistic mom, that's theway you know how to be a mom.
But if you know it's killing youand if it's negating your
relationship with your yourkids, then we can step back and
(06:37):
talk about what is it that wereally want. We want joyful,
grateful, content children whoare able to focus, do well in
the things that they've beencalled to do, and we need to
back off sometimes.
Christy-Faith (06:53):
Yes. Well, the gentle parenting movement isn't
gonna like your answer. Well,here's the thing is, I am really
big on teaching my childrenvirtue, and you really can't
have virtue without vices. Andsometimes it's necessary to call
things for what they are. But intoday's society, that's a big
parenting no no.
It's a big parenting no no toactually say, I'm seeing a
(07:17):
little bit of laziness here. Canyou speak to that? Because
here's where I am in parentingis I I was raised in I was
raised a Christian. My parentswere not authoritarian, but I
definitely, in my youngparenting years, was involved
with a lot of authoritarian,patriarchal parenting messages
(07:42):
and made a lot of mistakes andhave a lot of regrets with my
firstborn child. And then, youknow, would start reading books
and then would read stuff ongentle parenting like way, you
know, the early gentle parentingstuff and I'm like, this doesn't
align.
This doesn't really align withwith my beliefs and my values.
And I do think that there areperspectives out there where
(08:03):
there is a balance here and Iwant to ask you about this and I
want to go there. What is yourview on gentle parenting? And
the reason why I want to ask youis because you seek to for
families to have connection andyou seek for children to be
honored and celebrated for whothey are and how they were
created. So with knowing thatabout you, what is your view of
(08:28):
gentle parenting?
Dr. Kathy Koch (08:29):
I'm a 150,000,000 percent against it.
How's that? I think it's thecheap way out. I think parents
need to be strong enough to sayno and yes. No to the no things,
yes to the yes things.
I think we have to expect ourkids to grow and mature. They
don't know what they're capableof. Gentle parenting can cause
(08:50):
them to be so lazy and they willnever develop who they could
have been. We are reallyexpected by our creator, the one
who put the family together, tocause our children to become who
they were created to be. And so,no, sit down and try again.
It's unacceptable work. I thinkwe've raised them to have
responsibilities at home. Youcan call them chores. I like the
(09:11):
word responsibility. I think weraise them up to understand what
is a fair expectation.
Here's the evidence. I havepictures from the last two
assignments in my phone. Let meremind you of how well you did.
Now do you see today's I thinkyou hurried today because your
brother, you know, was finishedearly, and he's already outside
playing. And you made, aninappropriate choice, and we're
(09:31):
not putting up with this.
So go try again. So I I think weneed to be strong and and
forceful with the rightattitude. If I could put it that
way, we would never scare ourkids. But gentle parenting, I
wrote I wrote the book ResilientKids partly because we have to
let them struggle, and we haveto let them grow through the
(09:52):
struggle or they'll be so weak.So I'd love to hear your take on
it.
I haven't thought about that ina while, so I hope my answer is
is accurate. I am I will tellyou that it is dangerous. It is
it is causing mental healthproblems in our children because
they don't know who they are,and they can't accept any
feedback. And life is full ofopportunities to expect
(10:13):
feedback, and that's how we growup.
Christy-Faith (10:16):
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(12:48):
Yes. Well and the thesis is allmisbehavior is an unmet need.
What would you say to that?
Dr. Kathy Koch (12:55):
There may be something right about that. I've
written about the 5 core needsthat I think children have, but
I don't think that even if it'sunmet need, that doesn't mean
that we're gentle in thesolution of that, I guess, is
what would be confusing for me.I just wrote my newest book is
on character. My newest book ison biblical character and I
wrote it because I'm reallyconcerned about the lack of
(13:17):
character in adults. Frankly, ifI can go there and the lack of
training for character in ourchildren, I'm not a fan of
training for obedience obedienceif we train for obedience, we
might not get it, but if wetrain don't tell and yell but
train for character we get bothcharacter and obedience because
Christy all disobedience isrooted in unhealthy character.
(13:41):
Okay arguing is rooted in thequalities of selfishness self
centeredness pride and a lack offlexibility. Whining behavior.
Do any of you have a 34 yearold? They just have that voice,
and they just whine all daylong, or maybe even a 7 year old
or a 9 year old, and they loveto whine to get the buttons
pushed so that you give themanother cookie. Whining is self
(14:02):
centered and selfishness andpride and a lack of flexibility
and and other things.
There's just so much I could sayabout that. So I'm a big
believer in the training up ofcharacter and virtues. That's
our job. And and we can do thatin our homeschool day, and we do
it after the homeschool day hasended, if you want to call it
that. We can we can do thisbetter.
Christy-Faith (14:21):
The whole point is we want kids who are
resilient. And how do we fosterthat in our children? And
resiliency is being able tohandle hardship. Honestly, what
is resiliency? It's when lifegets hard, can you still stand?
Right? And life is really hard.And so I have concerns, very
(14:42):
many concerns about the gentleparenting movement and then I've
also seen the results ofauthoritarian, just abusive
parenting as well. I went to aChristian liberal arts college
and let me tell you, some ofthose kids who were raised in
those households, they wentcrazy. They, you know, sexual
behaviors, drinking, all ofthat.
This was at a very conservativeChristian liberal arts
(15:05):
undergraduate institution. Andso I think it's really hard,
especially for people of theChristian faith nowadays, to
navigate this parentinglandscape because we maybe we
were raised in a more abusiveway, and we want something
different, but we don't knowwhat that different looks like.
And so that's really exciting.Can you speak any any other
(15:27):
wisdom to raising resilientkids?
Dr. Kathy Koch (15:31):
One thing that you were you were implying, we
have to let them struggle and bethe victory or have the victory
at the end. So one of the thingsthat I think is really tempting
for parents, you know, if yourkid is at the breakfast bar,
working on a problem and they'remoaning and they're groaning and
they're sweating and they're,mommy, it's so hard, then it's
so easy to go up and just rescuethem in that moment. I would
(15:52):
actually say leave the room ifyou can safely do that and let
them struggle through it. Andand when they do well on their
handwriting or theirmemorization or their poetry or
whatever they're doing when theydo well, then you get to say,
look at how you benefited fromstaying the course and doing the
hard work and you celebratetheir victory. If you steal the
victory, they won't learn thatthe the Valley experience is
(16:15):
worth it.
Okay? So things are gonna behard. The English language makes
no sense. You're gonna challengethem daily with behavior,
motivation, academic, artistic,musical, athletic pursuits. You
know, obviously eat right, youknow, drink enough water, sleep
enough, have great familydynamics.
When your kids struggle, twothings, let them struggle and
(16:37):
have their own victory and thencelebrate them. And let them
know if they are the cause ofthe struggle. There's cause
effect relationships. If youdon't sleep, you're tired and
cranky, and this is the result.If you if you forget that the
coop has a poetry contest andyou were gonna enter and today
was the last day to enter,that's not new.
(16:58):
Don't be lame than me. I'm not.No. You're capable as a 14 year
old of managing your schedule.We've talked about it.
You were gonna go into class andsign right up and you forgot,
and I am so sorry that you havedisappointed yourself. So this
is hard for parents. You don'twant your kids disappointed, but
you guys, you cannot ownsomething that is theirs to own
(17:19):
because they have to learnsometimes the hard way that
decisions they make result inother things that happen. So I
hope that comes clear again,wrote a whole book on it. It's
fragile children are not well.
We have got to help kids learnfrom their own struggle, walk
out of the valleys, figure outhow to make things easier when
(17:40):
they can, but don't don'thelicopter them. Don't don't
quickly rescue it. All to itmight rescue the day. Like, if
you quickly rescue them today,you'll have a better day. Right?
You'll feel like, oh, I can sitdown with a cup of coffee
because my kid has stoppedwhining. So I get it. On that
one day, it feels like you didthe right thing. But I'm gonna
say to you with integrity thatif you continue that pattern of
(18:02):
always rescuing them so that youstay happy, over dependent upon
you, and they're never gonnahave confidence in themselves.
And this is actually gonna hurtthem and hurt you and the
relationship you have with thatkid.
Yeah. Well, and the thing that
Christy-Faith (18:20):
we talk a lot about resilience in kids, but
let's take a minute to unpackthe word fragile because I think
everybody wants resilience orwanna raise a resilient kid, but
I don't think people actuallydefine for themselves what
fragile looks like. And it'simportant to do because I think
(18:41):
it's not a bad thing. I have 4kids if I look and I go, you
know what? I'm a little worriedabout the resilience with this
one right now. She's a littleblown by by the winds, blown by
the wind, not really in solidground.
So I'm now reminded of myself.So, of course, as I mentioned,
my parents did the best theycould, you know. I grew up in I
(19:02):
have wonderful parents, stillmarried. They're great. But we,
you know, we had some hard timesgrowing up and my sister had a
hard time learning and and I themessage definitely was Christy
does great in school, you know,you just do that.
And but looking back, Kathy, andthis is an epiphany for today, I
(19:23):
was extremely fragile. Mywhether I got an a and it was at
that point, it wasn't even an A.It had to be like 97% or above.
And if I didn't get that, itwould ruin a day, a week. I
thought I thought my entirefuture was going to be a
dumpster fire now.
I wasn't going to get into agood college. But you know what?
(19:45):
That connection that I madetoday is, wow, how fragile I
was. Now, let's let's flip thatbecause I I have done a lot of
healing in my life, a lot ofI've had a lot of beautiful
therapists who have helped me.And I remember when I was
applying to graduate schoolsand, you know, no family helped
(20:07):
financially.
So I had to, you know, be ableto get scholarships and things
like that. And I remember takingthe GRE to get into graduate
school, and I studied so hard.And I remember turning in that
test, finishing it. It waspaper, but I back in the day,
that's how old I am. They're notpaper anymore.
And I remember thinking tomyself, I could not have tried
(20:27):
harder. What will come willcome. I could not have tried
harder on this. And you knowwhat? I didn't obsess over it
for a week.
I mean, yes, I was. I wanted togo to graduate school. I got
into graduate school, right? ButI'm just looking back on that
shift in the growth and thatthere is hope for us. If your
kid really struggles withperfectionism, if you do
(20:49):
yourself, I think homeschoolmoms struggle with it because we
are the type that takes, wedon't, we do it.
We get it done. When someoneelse can't, we get it done. So I
think we are a little bit benttowards perfectionism and also
the pressure from society to notmess this up. All eyes are on
us, especially if you're the 1stperson in your family doing the
homeschooling, like everybody'slooking at you like, I wonder
(21:11):
how your kids are gonna turnout. It's a lot of pressure
because the outward world isfocused on the result.
Did you get an A inhomeschooling? And we can do
that to ourselves. And that'snot the journey. The journey is
we are cultivating beautifulhuman beings. That's our job.
(21:32):
Our job is way bigger thangetting an A on that math test
or getting all the spellingwords right. It's encouraging
that you say you're an awfulspeller. I think a lot of women
are going to be encouraged byhearing that today. Last
question. Motivation.
Motivation. I don't even wannasay anything else. I just want
(21:53):
you to say what you think needsto women need to hear about
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Dr. Kathy Koch (24:30):
The first thing I'll say is that every child is
motivated. So there's no suchthing as a non motivated child,
which makes the question, how doI motivate my kid, the wrong
question. I know you've askedit. I'm not shaming you. This is
very normal that we don'tunderstand this.
Some of you have childrenmotivated to be apathetic, and
(24:52):
it's very easy to be good atthat. Some of you have kids
motivated to act out to get yourattention because you just
affirmed a sister and nowthey're jealous and they want
you to notice them, and so theyact in appropriately so they
they'll hear you say their name.Everybody's motivated. So it's
how do I motivate them in theright direction? And there's 3
(25:12):
things the research says arevery clear.
1, they have to have value. Theyhave to believe they have value.
If your kids don't think theymatter, nothing matters. So what
messages have you spoken overthem and into them about the
fact that they have value? Man,I'm so glad, Elizabeth, that you
were created and that you're mydaughter and that you're 7
today.
(25:33):
I can't wait to see what thefuture holds. You are special to
me. Secondly, they have to valuelearning. Motivated kids have to
value learning, not grades. Oneof the freedom of homeschooling
is you don't have to grade.
Now some of you might live in astate where you have to do some
reports, and I get that, butgrades are so false. And you
need to parent for the bigpicture, 12 years, right? You
(25:53):
picture you parent for the bigpicture until they're 18, and
then you'll never not be aparent. The noun parent will
always be your noun, and so youhave to parent for the big
picture, not just let's have agood week. So, they have to
value learning.
Are they curious? Do youcelebrate your own learning?
Have you talked with them atlunch or dinner about what you
discovered that day when youwere reading a book to prepare
(26:14):
for a lesson? You're like, Inever knew this about Ferris
wheels. Just tell them somethinginteresting that they would find
fascinating.
And then 3rd, they have tobelieve in their future. And,
Christy, this is hard becausethe future looks bleak. You
know, we we know about the worldfalling apart as it falls apart
live in front of us on ourscreens, And there are kids who
have said to me, I I don't thinkI want to go up, and I'm not
(26:35):
convinced God is good becauselook at all of the difficult
things that are going on. And Ibelieve God is good because his
word declares that he's good,and I've lived long enough with
him to say that he has been goodto me. But I understand why
people without that faithjourney might question that.
So do your kids believe in theirfuture? Do you talk
optimistically about theirfuture? Not college. They don't
all have to go. I believe kidsshould be college worthy, but I
(26:57):
don't think they should all go.
And we need tradesmen, we needtech and tradespeople, we need
plumbers, and electricians, andcarpet layers, and contractors,
and truck drivers, and grocerystore workers, and I'm serious
about this. And if you have abody smart, logic smart kid
who's gonna change the world bybeing a great electrician, go
for it. I couldn't pass anelectrician's exam to save my
life. I tell people all thetime, get a job that can't be
(27:20):
outsourced to India. So it can'tbe about talking all the time
about your alma mater incollege.
It's about what are their valuesfor their future. Do they hope
to be married and moms and dads?Then that's what you talk about.
So they have to valuethemselves, value learning, and
value their future. And if thosethree things are consistently
talked about in a positive veinand get your parents to also
talk about those things withthem, then motivation in the
(27:43):
right direction is much morelikely.
So again, it there's it's acomplex issue, but I wanna
encourage you to use your wordswell, to use the spirit of
optimism well, and to help thembelieve in themselves. It's
absolutely critical.
Christy-Faith (27:55):
Hi there, podcast family. If our episodes bring a
smile to your face, challengeyou, or spark your thoughts, tap
that like and subscribe buttonto stay connected with us. Also,
we'd truly love to hear yourvoice in the comments. Your
insights and stories are whatmakes this community special.
And not only does it allow us tohear you, but your engagement
helps us reach more people andspread our message.
(28:17):
So go ahead and don't be shy.Like, subscribe, and comment.
Wow. Profound. What amazingwords of wisdom.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show today. Where can my
audience find you, Kathy?
Dr. Kathy Koch (28:31):
Well, first of all, thanks for having me. What
a fun conversation. Our websiteis CelebrateKids.com. That's
plural, CelebrateKids.com, and,you can find my podcast there,
Facing the Dark. You can find mybooks there and other things
that we provide.
We have online courses that someof your people might wanna
enroll in. And then we are weare active on Facebook and
Instagram at celebrate kids inc.
Christy-Faith (28:53):
Great. And we will put all of that in the show
notes. And I just realized Icalled you by your first name,
and I wanna correct that. DoctorKathy. I'm so sorry.
I I think you prefer doctorKathy or do you prefer doctor
Cook?
Dr. Kathy Koch (29:04):
No. I go by doctor Kathy professionally
partly because of the spellingof k o c h is, my last name is k
o c h, pronounced Cook, and it'sjust confusing. So if people
wanna Google my name to findeverywhere I've been, it's
kathykoch, but I go by doctorKathy You.
Christy-Faith (29:22):
Yes. Well, I am so honored. I don't know if the
the audience doesn't know thisbecause I didn't tell them, but
I asked you months months agoand you I was so blessed that
you had an opening in yourschedule to come and have a
conversation with little old metoday. But I know the audience
is gonna get tremendous valuefrom today's conversation.
Please, please go to celebratekids.
(29:44):
Find out what type of smartsyour kids have, and happy
homeschooling to everybody.We'll see you on the next show.
It's valuable to kinda step back. What toys do
they play with? What do they dowhen they get into trouble? What
subject matter do they do wellat? When they do talk, what do
they talk about?
When they ask questions, what dothey ask about? These are some
ways that we can figure it out.
Christy-Faith (00:12):
Welcome to the Christy-Faith Show where we
share game changing ideas withintentional parents like you.
I'm your host, Christy Faith,experienced educational adviser
and homeschool enthusiast.Together, we'll explore ways to
enrich and transform both yourlife and the lives of your
(00:33):
children. Welcome back to part2. In this episode, we'll
continue delving deeper intogame changing ideas for
intentional parents like you.
So grab your coffee, find acomfy spot, and let's dive right
in. Yes. And you also mention inyour writing that we can
paralyze our kids' intelligence.And and what's fascinating to me
is at our center, we had alearning center where we,
(00:55):
educated the children of alisters and billionaires in Los
Angeles. And these parents wouldhave their kids in extremely
rigorous private schools andthen we were hired to they would
have diagnosed learningdisabilities and we were hired
basically to do a private IEPand execute the private IEP in
our center.
And I remember seeing these kidswho hated being at school just
(01:18):
to come to our center to have towork on stuff that, honestly, we
could get it better, but it'snever gonna be right. Okay. So
let me give you an example. Thekid was struggling in math.
Okay?
And what did he have to do? Hehad to come and come to our
center and get math tutoring andmath remediation and then do the
(01:39):
summer math to make sure thathe's ready for the next grade
and and this and that and theother. And sometimes I would
just think this is part of myawakening in my own journey is
can we just let this kid gooutside? Like, he's not gonna be
a doctor. We know this.
We know this. And it really ithurt my soul to see childhoods
(02:01):
being robbed with this intensivefocus on all of their
weaknesses. I I feel like, and Iwant you guys to hear that
that's listening. We have asociety that obsesses over our
children's weaknesses. And thisis why I love what you do,
Kathy.
I'm so inspired because you areabout celebrating their
(02:25):
strengths and finding even lateron vocations in their later life
that honors this, how they'renaturally inclined. Now if
someone is very, what is it, thephysical, right, it becomes a
carpenter. Do they need mathskills? Yes. Yes.
They do need math skills, butthey don't need the math skills
of someone that is in APCalculus. Right? And so I think
(02:49):
that's why this is so empoweringfor families. It kinda helps us
step back and see the forest forthe trees. Like, what's our main
goal here?
Right? And and I want to talk toyou about something that, and I
hope this is I don't think thisis self indulgent because I hear
this all of the time. I talkabout this in the first chapter
(03:09):
of my book, how I am arecovering perfectionist. I was
raised in the system. My sisterhad profound learning
disabilities.
I was praised for how smart Iwas and my A's and I just, oh,
we don't have to worry aboutChristy. And then the focus was
on my sister. By the way, I havefull permission to talk about
(03:30):
her. We are best friends. Andshe loves she actually loves how
her story empowers families.
And also, she loves how thejuxtaposition between our
childhoods can really openparents' minds to see, Okay,
when there's a gifted child,this is what can happen. And
we're all gifted. But when Iwhen you're gifted in the way
(03:52):
society tells you is worthy,right? You're it looks
different. I want to clarifythat very specifically.
But I want you to speak a littlebit to perfectionism. I will
say, I think in homeschooling,it is a major hurdle that
parents do not know how to getover. When a child sees a
problem, automatically sees thisone's gonna be hard, and then
the mom gets pushed back. Shegets tantrums. She gets
(04:14):
resistance.
Can you get to the root of thata little bit? Before we get to
granular, like, how to help withperfectionism, would you just
speak to what's going onemotionally first?
Dr. Kathy Koch (04:25):
Those are great great observations and great
questions. Perfectionism isoften pride. It's often an
emotional immaturity where theycannot process this idea that
they can't get it right thefirst time. Sometimes laziness
is very much rooted here. Theydon't wanna have to work hard.
(04:47):
Nowadays, if we have allowed ouryoung children on devices, they
are absolutely going to leantoward perfectionism because
everything on the phone is soeasy. You can win any game you
play. You exotic games you mightlose. You know, there's you
know, they beep and they buzzand they light up when you
write. They give you a secondchance.
So I really ache for today'skids who I think are even
(05:09):
developing a perfectionisticperspective about life, maybe
earlier than in the old days. Itis a cousin to procrastination.
If you and your kids struggle toget started or struggle to
finish, that's almost alwaysindicative of fear that they
won't satisfy you. I I don't saythis in a in a harsh way, but
I'll be honest with you,Christy, that what I've noticed
(05:31):
too is that sometimes what yousay is unconditional love isn't.
And what I mean by that is youmight say to your kids, really,
anything's okay, you know, doyour best.
But when they miss 3 problems,you don't behave like it was
their best. In fact, now wasthat your best? Or I'm, you
know, maybe you imply or youeven say, hey, I'm disappointed
with the 3 mistakes. And again,you have a right to be
(05:53):
disappointed with 3 mistakes ifyou have proof that with more
effort, diligence, perseverance,they could have had a perfect
score. So sometimes it's DNA,there sometimes it's DNA.
I was raised by, my dad was anengineer, a German engineer, and
Dave and I are grateful for thehigh standards that we were
raised with. And yet, if Davewere here with me, we would both
(06:16):
say to you that my dad was notthe kind of guy who liked, lazy
mistakes. He was not panicked bytrue mistakes when he knows we
had studied and tried hard, butwe just made we missed the mark.
So I think our background is apowerful thing there.
Perfectionistic mom, that's theway you know how to be a mom.
But if you know it's killing youand if it's negating your
relationship with your yourkids, then we can step back and
(06:37):
talk about what is it that wereally want. We want joyful,
grateful, content children whoare able to focus, do well in
the things that they've beencalled to do, and we need to
back off sometimes.
Christy-Faith (06:53):
Yes. Well, the gentle parenting movement isn't
gonna like your answer. Well,here's the thing is, I am really
big on teaching my childrenvirtue, and you really can't
have virtue without vices. Andsometimes it's necessary to call
things for what they are. But intoday's society, that's a big
parenting no no.
It's a big parenting no no toactually say, I'm seeing a
(07:17):
little bit of laziness here. Canyou speak to that? Because
here's where I am in parentingis I I was raised in I was
raised a Christian. My parentswere not authoritarian, but I
definitely, in my youngparenting years, was involved
with a lot of authoritarian,patriarchal parenting messages
(07:42):
and made a lot of mistakes andhave a lot of regrets with my
firstborn child. And then, youknow, would start reading books
and then would read stuff ongentle parenting like way, you
know, the early gentle parentingstuff and I'm like, this doesn't
align.
This doesn't really align withwith my beliefs and my values.
And I do think that there areperspectives out there where
(08:03):
there is a balance here and Iwant to ask you about this and I
want to go there. What is yourview on gentle parenting? And
the reason why I want to ask youis because you seek to for
families to have connection andyou seek for children to be
honored and celebrated for whothey are and how they were
created. So with knowing thatabout you, what is your view of
(08:28):
gentle parenting?
Dr. Kathy Koch (08:29):
I'm a 150,000,000 percent against it.
How's that? I think it's thecheap way out. I think parents
need to be strong enough to sayno and yes. No to the no things,
yes to the yes things.
I think we have to expect ourkids to grow and mature. They
don't know what they're capableof. Gentle parenting can cause
(08:50):
them to be so lazy and they willnever develop who they could
have been. We are reallyexpected by our creator, the one
who put the family together, tocause our children to become who
they were created to be. And so,no, sit down and try again.
It's unacceptable work. I thinkwe've raised them to have
responsibilities at home. Youcan call them chores. I like the
(09:11):
word responsibility. I think weraise them up to understand what
is a fair expectation.
Here's the evidence. I havepictures from the last two
assignments in my phone. Let meremind you of how well you did.
Now do you see today's I thinkyou hurried today because your
brother, you know, was finishedearly, and he's already outside
playing. And you made, aninappropriate choice, and we're
(09:31):
not putting up with this.
So go try again. So I I think weneed to be strong and and
forceful with the rightattitude. If I could put it that
way, we would never scare ourkids. But gentle parenting, I
wrote I wrote the book ResilientKids partly because we have to
let them struggle, and we haveto let them grow through the
(09:52):
struggle or they'll be so weak.So I'd love to hear your take on
it.
I haven't thought about that ina while, so I hope my answer is
is accurate. I am I will tellyou that it is dangerous. It is
it is causing mental healthproblems in our children because
they don't know who they are,and they can't accept any
feedback. And life is full ofopportunities to expect
(10:13):
feedback, and that's how we growup.
Christy-Faith (10:16):
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(10:39):
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(12:48):
Yes. Well and the thesis is allmisbehavior is an unmet need.
What would you say to that?
Dr. Kathy Koch (12:55):
There may be something right about that. I've
written about the 5 core needsthat I think children have, but
I don't think that even if it'sunmet need, that doesn't mean
that we're gentle in thesolution of that, I guess, is
what would be confusing for me.I just wrote my newest book is
on character. My newest book ison biblical character and I
wrote it because I'm reallyconcerned about the lack of
(13:17):
character in adults. Frankly, ifI can go there and the lack of
training for character in ourchildren, I'm not a fan of
training for obedience obedienceif we train for obedience, we
might not get it, but if wetrain don't tell and yell but
train for character we get bothcharacter and obedience because
Christy all disobedience isrooted in unhealthy character.
(13:41):
Okay arguing is rooted in thequalities of selfishness self
centeredness pride and a lack offlexibility. Whining behavior.
Do any of you have a 34 yearold? They just have that voice,
and they just whine all daylong, or maybe even a 7 year old
or a 9 year old, and they loveto whine to get the buttons
pushed so that you give themanother cookie. Whining is self
(14:02):
centered and selfishness andpride and a lack of flexibility
and and other things.
There's just so much I could sayabout that. So I'm a big
believer in the training up ofcharacter and virtues. That's
our job. And and we can do thatin our homeschool day, and we do
it after the homeschool day hasended, if you want to call it
that. We can we can do thisbetter.
Christy-Faith (14:21):
The whole point is we want kids who are
resilient. And how do we fosterthat in our children? And
resiliency is being able tohandle hardship. Honestly, what
is resiliency? It's when lifegets hard, can you still stand?
Right? And life is really hard.And so I have concerns, very
(14:42):
many concerns about the gentleparenting movement and then I've
also seen the results ofauthoritarian, just abusive
parenting as well. I went to aChristian liberal arts college
and let me tell you, some ofthose kids who were raised in
those households, they wentcrazy. They, you know, sexual
behaviors, drinking, all ofthat.
This was at a very conservativeChristian liberal arts
(15:05):
undergraduate institution. Andso I think it's really hard,
especially for people of theChristian faith nowadays, to
navigate this parentinglandscape because we maybe we
were raised in a more abusiveway, and we want something
different, but we don't knowwhat that different looks like.
And so that's really exciting.Can you speak any any other
(15:27):
wisdom to raising resilientkids?
Dr. Kathy Koch (15:31):
One thing that you were you were implying, we
have to let them struggle and bethe victory or have the victory
at the end. So one of the thingsthat I think is really tempting
for parents, you know, if yourkid is at the breakfast bar,
working on a problem and they'remoaning and they're groaning and
they're sweating and they're,mommy, it's so hard, then it's
so easy to go up and just rescuethem in that moment. I would
(15:52):
actually say leave the room ifyou can safely do that and let
them struggle through it. Andand when they do well on their
handwriting or theirmemorization or their poetry or
whatever they're doing when theydo well, then you get to say,
look at how you benefited fromstaying the course and doing the
hard work and you celebratetheir victory. If you steal the
victory, they won't learn thatthe the Valley experience is
(16:15):
worth it.
Okay? So things are gonna behard. The English language makes
no sense. You're gonna challengethem daily with behavior,
motivation, academic, artistic,musical, athletic pursuits. You
know, obviously eat right, youknow, drink enough water, sleep
enough, have great familydynamics.
When your kids struggle, twothings, let them struggle and
(16:37):
have their own victory and thencelebrate them. And let them
know if they are the cause ofthe struggle. There's cause
effect relationships. If youdon't sleep, you're tired and
cranky, and this is the result.If you if you forget that the
coop has a poetry contest andyou were gonna enter and today
was the last day to enter,that's not new.
(16:58):
Don't be lame than me. I'm not.No. You're capable as a 14 year
old of managing your schedule.We've talked about it.
You were gonna go into class andsign right up and you forgot,
and I am so sorry that you havedisappointed yourself. So this
is hard for parents. You don'twant your kids disappointed, but
you guys, you cannot ownsomething that is theirs to own
(17:19):
because they have to learnsometimes the hard way that
decisions they make result inother things that happen. So I
hope that comes clear again,wrote a whole book on it. It's
fragile children are not well.
We have got to help kids learnfrom their own struggle, walk
out of the valleys, figure outhow to make things easier when
(17:40):
they can, but don't don'thelicopter them. Don't don't
quickly rescue it. All to itmight rescue the day. Like, if
you quickly rescue them today,you'll have a better day. Right?
You'll feel like, oh, I can sitdown with a cup of coffee
because my kid has stoppedwhining. So I get it. On that
one day, it feels like you didthe right thing. But I'm gonna
say to you with integrity thatif you continue that pattern of
(18:02):
always rescuing them so that youstay happy, over dependent upon
you, and they're never gonnahave confidence in themselves.
And this is actually gonna hurtthem and hurt you and the
relationship you have with thatkid.
Yeah. Well, and the thing that
Christy-Faith (18:20):
we talk a lot about resilience in kids, but
let's take a minute to unpackthe word fragile because I think
everybody wants resilience orwanna raise a resilient kid, but
I don't think people actuallydefine for themselves what
fragile looks like. And it'simportant to do because I think
(18:41):
it's not a bad thing. I have 4kids if I look and I go, you
know what? I'm a little worriedabout the resilience with this
one right now. She's a littleblown by by the winds, blown by
the wind, not really in solidground.
So I'm now reminded of myself.So, of course, as I mentioned,
my parents did the best theycould, you know. I grew up in I
(19:02):
have wonderful parents, stillmarried. They're great. But we,
you know, we had some hard timesgrowing up and my sister had a
hard time learning and and I themessage definitely was Christy
does great in school, you know,you just do that.
And but looking back, Kathy, andthis is an epiphany for today, I
(19:23):
was extremely fragile. Mywhether I got an a and it was at
that point, it wasn't even an A.It had to be like 97% or above.
And if I didn't get that, itwould ruin a day, a week. I
thought I thought my entirefuture was going to be a
dumpster fire now.
I wasn't going to get into agood college. But you know what?
(19:45):
That connection that I madetoday is, wow, how fragile I
was. Now, let's let's flip thatbecause I I have done a lot of
healing in my life, a lot ofI've had a lot of beautiful
therapists who have helped me.And I remember when I was
applying to graduate schoolsand, you know, no family helped
(20:07):
financially.
So I had to, you know, be ableto get scholarships and things
like that. And I remember takingthe GRE to get into graduate
school, and I studied so hard.And I remember turning in that
test, finishing it. It waspaper, but I back in the day,
that's how old I am. They're notpaper anymore.
And I remember thinking tomyself, I could not have tried
(20:27):
harder. What will come willcome. I could not have tried
harder on this. And you knowwhat? I didn't obsess over it
for a week.
I mean, yes, I was. I wanted togo to graduate school. I got
into graduate school, right? ButI'm just looking back on that
shift in the growth and thatthere is hope for us. If your
kid really struggles withperfectionism, if you do
(20:49):
yourself, I think homeschoolmoms struggle with it because we
are the type that takes, wedon't, we do it.
We get it done. When someoneelse can't, we get it done. So I
think we are a little bit benttowards perfectionism and also
the pressure from society to notmess this up. All eyes are on
us, especially if you're the 1stperson in your family doing the
homeschooling, like everybody'slooking at you like, I wonder
(21:11):
how your kids are gonna turnout. It's a lot of pressure
because the outward world isfocused on the result.
Did you get an A inhomeschooling? And we can do
that to ourselves. And that'snot the journey. The journey is
we are cultivating beautifulhuman beings. That's our job.
(21:32):
Our job is way bigger thangetting an A on that math test
or getting all the spellingwords right. It's encouraging
that you say you're an awfulspeller. I think a lot of women
are going to be encouraged byhearing that today. Last
question. Motivation.
Motivation. I don't even wannasay anything else. I just want
(21:53):
you to say what you think needsto women need to hear about
their child's motivation. Theshow will resume in just a
minute. But first, I wanna sharewith you an incredible resource
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your life so they can betterunderstand why you've chosen
this amazing lifestyle. Thisbook will challenge you, empower
you, encourage you, and give yousolid mindful answers to all
those questions you get aboutyour homeschooling choice.
Grab your copy and maybe anextra one for your mother-in-law
(24:27):
today. Homeschool Rising isavailable wherever books are
sold.
Dr. Kathy Koch (24:30):
The first thing I'll say is that every child is
motivated. So there's no suchthing as a non motivated child,
which makes the question, how doI motivate my kid, the wrong
question. I know you've askedit. I'm not shaming you. This is
very normal that we don'tunderstand this.
Some of you have childrenmotivated to be apathetic, and
(24:52):
it's very easy to be good atthat. Some of you have kids
motivated to act out to get yourattention because you just
affirmed a sister and nowthey're jealous and they want
you to notice them, and so theyact in appropriately so they
they'll hear you say their name.Everybody's motivated. So it's
how do I motivate them in theright direction? And there's 3
(25:12):
things the research says arevery clear.
1, they have to have value. Theyhave to believe they have value.
If your kids don't think theymatter, nothing matters. So what
messages have you spoken overthem and into them about the
fact that they have value? Man,I'm so glad, Elizabeth, that you
were created and that you're mydaughter and that you're 7
today.
(25:33):
I can't wait to see what thefuture holds. You are special to
me. Secondly, they have to valuelearning. Motivated kids have to
value learning, not grades. Oneof the freedom of homeschooling
is you don't have to grade.
Now some of you might live in astate where you have to do some
reports, and I get that, butgrades are so false. And you
need to parent for the bigpicture, 12 years, right? You
(25:53):
picture you parent for the bigpicture until they're 18, and
then you'll never not be aparent. The noun parent will
always be your noun, and so youhave to parent for the big
picture, not just let's have agood week. So, they have to
value learning.
Are they curious? Do youcelebrate your own learning?
Have you talked with them atlunch or dinner about what you
discovered that day when youwere reading a book to prepare
(26:14):
for a lesson? You're like, Inever knew this about Ferris
wheels. Just tell them somethinginteresting that they would find
fascinating.
And then 3rd, they have tobelieve in their future. And,
Christy, this is hard becausethe future looks bleak. You
know, we we know about the worldfalling apart as it falls apart
live in front of us on ourscreens, And there are kids who
have said to me, I I don't thinkI want to go up, and I'm not
(26:35):
convinced God is good becauselook at all of the difficult
things that are going on. And Ibelieve God is good because his
word declares that he's good,and I've lived long enough with
him to say that he has been goodto me. But I understand why
people without that faithjourney might question that.
So do your kids believe in theirfuture? Do you talk
optimistically about theirfuture? Not college. They don't
all have to go. I believe kidsshould be college worthy, but I
(26:57):
don't think they should all go.
And we need tradesmen, we needtech and tradespeople, we need
plumbers, and electricians, andcarpet layers, and contractors,
and truck drivers, and grocerystore workers, and I'm serious
about this. And if you have abody smart, logic smart kid
who's gonna change the world bybeing a great electrician, go
for it. I couldn't pass anelectrician's exam to save my
life. I tell people all thetime, get a job that can't be
(27:20):
outsourced to India. So it can'tbe about talking all the time
about your alma mater incollege.
It's about what are their valuesfor their future. Do they hope
to be married and moms and dads?Then that's what you talk about.
So they have to valuethemselves, value learning, and
value their future. And if thosethree things are consistently
talked about in a positive veinand get your parents to also
talk about those things withthem, then motivation in the
(27:43):
right direction is much morelikely.
So again, it there's it's acomplex issue, but I wanna
encourage you to use your wordswell, to use the spirit of
optimism well, and to help thembelieve in themselves. It's
absolutely critical.
Christy-Faith (27:55):
Hi there, podcast family. If our episodes bring a
smile to your face, challengeyou, or spark your thoughts, tap
that like and subscribe buttonto stay connected with us. Also,
we'd truly love to hear yourvoice in the comments. Your
insights and stories are whatmakes this community special.
And not only does it allow us tohear you, but your engagement
helps us reach more people andspread our message.
(28:17):
So go ahead and don't be shy.Like, subscribe, and comment.
Wow. Profound. What amazingwords of wisdom.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show today. Where can my
audience find you, Kathy?
Dr. Kathy Koch (28:31):
Well, first of all, thanks for having me. What
a fun conversation. Our websiteis CelebrateKids.com. That's
plural, CelebrateKids.com, and,you can find my podcast there,
Facing the Dark. You can find mybooks there and other things
that we provide.
We have online courses that someof your people might wanna
enroll in. And then we are weare active on Facebook and
Instagram at celebrate kids inc.
Christy-Faith (28:53):
Great. And we will put all of that in the show
notes. And I just realized Icalled you by your first name,
and I wanna correct that. DoctorKathy. I'm so sorry.
I I think you prefer doctorKathy or do you prefer doctor
Cook?
Dr. Kathy Koch (29:04):
No. I go by doctor Kathy professionally
partly because of the spellingof k o c h is, my last name is k
o c h, pronounced Cook, and it'sjust confusing. So if people
wanna Google my name to findeverywhere I've been, it's
kathykoch, but I go by doctorKathy You.
Christy-Faith (29:22):
Yes. Well, I am so honored. I don't know if the
the audience doesn't know thisbecause I didn't tell them, but
I asked you months months agoand you I was so blessed that
you had an opening in yourschedule to come and have a
conversation with little old metoday. But I know the audience
is gonna get tremendous valuefrom today's conversation.
Please, please go to celebratekids.
(29:44):
Find out what type of smartsyour kids have, and happy
homeschooling to everybody.We'll see you on the next show.
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