The Church Lobby

Karl Vaters talks with Brad Roth about the content from his new book, Flyover Church: How Jesus’ Ministry in Rural Places Is Good News Everywhere, for which Karl wrote the foreword.

Topics include:

• How the rural church is different from the city and suburban church, not just in scale, but in type
• How metrics are very different in the rural church
• The lure of strategy
• The radically different pace of rural ministry
• And more

Br...

Sometimes pastors are our own worst enemy, so we need to recognize that God chose us for this work.

There’s probably not a single pastor (at least not a long-term pastor) who can’t relate to the title of Craig T Owens’ latest book, When Sheep Bite: Help for Shepherd Leaders Who May Have Felt the Painful Bites.

In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Craig about what those bites mean, where they come from and what to do...

Karl Vaters talks with Frank Wooden about Microchurches. Frank has been a church planter for decades, but is now concentrating on the Microchurch model as a valid, healthy alternative in a changing cultural landscape.

Karl and Frank talk about:

• What Microchurch is
• Why it’s so appealing right now
• Some cautions to be aware of
• Three reasons the Microchurch model can work for a church of any size
• How the Microchurch model might be the an...

Karl Vaters talks with Laurie Acker about the changing face of small church ministry, especially as it relates to recruiting, training, and relying on the volunteers who are so essential in helping small churches survive and thrive in a changing world.

Laurie runs SmallChurchMinistry.com, an online ministry that provides resources and support for volunteers and ministry leaders in smaller churches. Ministries like this are so i...

Pastoring in a post-Christian context is different. The more counter-cultural our faith becomes, the more important it is to understand that Christian consumerism is deadly and church cooperation is essential.

Karl Vaters talks with Dan Nichols about these subjects, including:

• Negotiating a cultural shift in a longstanding church
• Partnering with other churches
• Bridging the big/small church divide
• And more

Dan Nichols is the...

As we come to the end of our ten-part series based on De-sizing the Church, we’re highlighting portions of conversations Karl Vaters had with five church leaders from various backgrounds about their first reactions to reading the book.

• Drew Dyck (author and editor) talks about the dangers of Christian celebrity.
• Peyton Jones (author and church planter) discusses how churches operating under the church growth paradi...

Karl Vaters talks with Mike Rubino about his First Reaction to the first chapter of De-sizing the Church, The Danger of Idolizing Outcomes.

Karl and Mike look at:

• The difference between a church that is trending or transforming
• The biggest mistakes churches make regarding metrics
• Why “idolatry” is not too strong a term for how many churches and pastors approach size, growth, and outcomes
• And more.

When we’re obsessed w...

A conversation with Matt Steen about the potential dangers of replatforming fallen pastors too quickly.

This is the first of three First Reaction episodes in which I talk to people who read advance copies of De-sizing the Church to get their response to some of the issues I raise in it.

As the co-founder of Chemistry Staffing, which helps churches find great staff members, and staff members find awesome churches, Matt has a uniq...

Fame and celebrity have many downsides. But Daniel Darling brings a balanced approach to this subject by reminding us that fame is also what allows a good message to get through the clutter.

In this episode, Karl talks with Dan about a Twitter thread Dan wrote expressing appreciation for the fame of Tim Keller.

It was Tim Keller's platform and the celebrity status it gave him that allowed Dan and so many others to be introduced to Ke...

What happens when a pastor sets out, not to minister to people who look like him, but to purposely reach people who look as different from his current congregation as possible?

That’s what Dave Gibbons, the founding pastor of Newsong Church in Orange County, CA did. In this episode, Karl Vaters talks with him about the planting of Newsong, the challenges Dave faced when he decided to guide them to look more like the diverse county t...

Meritocracy has become embedded in the American church. In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Scot McKnight about why this is dangerous, how to notice the warning signs of a toxic church culture, the problems with being or following a narcissistic leader, and more.

Scot McKnight is the co-author (with Laura Barringer) of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing.

Karl's n...

Karl Vaters interviews Bob Smietana, a columnist for Religion News Service, and the author of Reorganized Religion: The Reshaping of the American Church and Why it Matters.

Bob and Karl discuss some of unintended consequences of the Church Growth Movement from Bob's unique vantage point. They also delve into the dangers of bigness and what we can do about it.

Then they discuss Smietana’s fascinating article, “There’s a Reason Every H...

If small church pastors have a modern patron saint, Eugene Peterson might be it.

In this episode, Karl Vaters talks with Peterson’s biographer, Winn Collier about the places where Winn’s book, A Burning in My Bones: The Authorized Biography of Eugene H. Peterson, Translator of The Message, overlaps with Karl's book, De-sizing the Church.

They talk about how Winn was entrusted to write Peterson’s authorized bio, why people (espec...

One of the biggest dangers of our obsession with church size is the rise of the Christian celebrity culture. Katelyn Beaty is the author of Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church.

Katelyn defines celebrity as “social power without proximity.” In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Katelyn about what that means, why it’s a problem, and why we in the church are so susceptible to the lu...

We have an unhealthy relationship with bigness in the church. Especially in the American church. And it’s killing us. The rate of church closures, departing members, and pastoral burnout is growing exponentially.

This is the first episode of a series of podcasts based on Karl Vaters’ new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next. Karl talks about how we became so obsessed with...

Have you ever felt like your church is “less than” because you don’t have a worship experience with the talented musicians you’ve seen in larger churches? According to Teresa Stewart, not only is that not needed for an excellent worship experience, but the small church actually has advantages that are not always available to our big-church friends.

In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Teresa Stewart about some of those advan...

Ian Borkent is a pastor in the Netherlands who walked through a season of ministry burnout and now helps pastors address this issue in their own lives through the ministry of Grow a Healthy Soul.

In this episode we’ll talk about the causes of pastoral burnout, how to avoid it, and how to recruit church members to the task of helping pastors by employing the five-fold ministry gifts.

Also, I’ll be sharing some of content of my ne...

Our brains are the most important, but least understood part of our body. In this episode, Karl Vaters interviews Michel Hendricks about the fascinating place where faith and brain science intersect.

Michel is the co-author (with Jim Wilder) of The Other Half of Church: Christian Community, Brain Science, and Overcoming Spiritual Stagnation, which Karl listed as one of his top ten books in 2023.

If a conversation about brai...

This is the second of two very special episodes that we’re doing in back-to-back weeks instead of our usual bi-weekly schedule.

This episode features the message I preached in January 2024, on the day our church honored Shelley and me for our 31 years of serving the church on staff.

In this message, I talked about what we’re doing next, including why God has called us to the ministry of Helping Small Churches Thrive.

It includes some ...