June 5, 2025 • 52 mins
In this episode of The Circle Podcast, we’re joined by Jonathan Scott—also known as Wild Blue Yonder and Esther the Village Mermaid—for a deeply moving conversation about queer resilience, the Radical Fairy movement, and the healing power of gathering in circle.
A longtime community organizer and founder of the Victory Programs, Jonathan shares his lived experience from the height of the AIDS epidemic, when queer communities, abandoned by institutions, created sacred spaces for care, grief, breath, and belonging. From heart circles in treatment centers to radical fairy sanctuaries, he reminds us that intimacy, connection, and breath can be medicine—especially when systems fail.
We explore:
✨ The birth of “circles of care” during the AIDS crisis
✨ What the Radical Fairy movement teaches about subject-to-subject connection
✨ How breathwork and storytelling offer deep healing
✨ The importance of queer spaces beyond clubs and apps
✨ Intimacy without performance—and the freedom of just being
Whether you lived through the epidemic or are learning this history for the first time, this episode offers essential wisdom for queer healing, spiritual embodiment, and collective care.
00:00 Introduction and Welcome
00:23 Meet Jonathan Scott and Esther, the Village Mermaid
01:18 Circles of Care During the AIDS Epidemic
04:51 The Power of Heart Circles
08:33 Living Through Two Pandemics
15:51 Radical Fairies and Heart Circles
21:55 The Importance of Unapologetic Expression
28:11 Navigating Expectations in Queer Spaces
29:13 The Power of Intentional Gatherings
32:52 Creating Safe and Intimate Spaces
34:16 The Importance of Compassion and Connection
37:22 The Role of Rituals and Ceremonies
45:21 Honoring the Past and Building the Future
49:16 Concluding Reflections and Gratitude
🔔 Don’t forget to like, comment, and subscribe for more conversations on men’s work, queer embodiment, and healing.
#AIDSEpidemic #RadicalFairy #QueerHistory #QueerHealing #LGBTQPodcast #MensWork #Embodiment #JonathanScott #Breathwork #HeartCircle #GayMenHealing #SubjectToSubject #QueerResilience #Provincetown #TheCirclePodcast #LGBTQWellness #LGBTQHistory
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric Bomyea (00:05):
Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go
all in on men's work, embodimentpractices, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. Ifyou're enjoying the show, please
be sure to share your favoriteepisode, leave a review, and
subscribe. And if you have aquestion about anything you've
heard us talk about, please sendus a message. We'd love to hear
from you. And now onto the show.
Today, we're joined by JonathanScott, also known as Wild Blue
(00:25):
Yonder and Esther, the villagemermaid. A province town radical
ferry, you'll find him swimmingin the bay, singing to birds,
making flamingo pink jam fromwild beach roses, and walking
his Jack Russell keto. That'sketo with a q, like the capital
of Ecuador, not the diet with aK. Jonathan is also a lifelong
community organizer. He'sfounded the Victory Programs and
(00:46):
built 30 treatment homes forpeople facing HIV, addiction,
and homelessness.
During the height of the AIDSepidemic, when fear and stigma
were everywhere, Jonathan leanedinto community, gathering in
circles of care that becamesacred ground for healing and
resilience. We're so honored tohave him here today to take us
back to that time and share avital part of our queer history.
Tim, Jonathan, are you ready togo all in? Ready. I'm ready.
(01:09):
Let's go. Jonathan, I'm really,really happy that you're here
with us today. We first met acouple years back on the beach
when we were walking our dogs,and you welcomed me into town
with with lovingly socialdistanced arms. And you taught
me so much during our firstwalks together about life and
love during the height of theAIDS epidemic in the eighties
(01:29):
and nineties. And now today, weget to go even deeper because
you've been coming to the men'sembodiment circles here in town.
And it was at one of thesecircles that you mentioned how
important gatherings like thiswere and are, and you told us
about how you participated andhelped create what you called
circles of care, spaces wherepeople could come together, be
seen, and begin to heal in themidst of the AIDS crisis. I'd
(01:50):
love it if you could bring usback to that memory. What do you
remember about those earlygatherings?
Jonathan Scott (01:54):
Well, I wanna, first of all, thank you both for
the men's embodiment work thatyou are doing in creating this
incredibly beautiful, lovelycontainer and ritual for people
to come together, and it's areally sacred thing whenever
anybody can share from theheart. And I, you know, I have,
(02:19):
you introduced me with threedifferent names, and, you know,
we all, I think, live many livesand many roles the longer we go.
And, yeah, Jonathan is, theprofessional, and he had a lot
of checklists in life and did alot of things, know, lots of
pats on the back, chair of theboard of mass equality, fighting
(02:41):
for equal marriage, and chair ofthe board of Ryan White Planning
Council, and and running victoryprograms for the homeless living
with HIV and AIDS, alsoaddiction. And Esther, the
village mermaid, was really whoI was in when I wasn't doing
that, and I would come down toProvincetown in the seventies
(03:03):
and eighties, and we had thisreally wildly fun beach party
where everybody all you had todo is bring a bathing cap, and
we had this wild mayhem party onthe beach, and everybody came,
lesbians and gay men, and wewould do this water ballet at
the end.
And, you know, mostly, it wasnaked except for the bathing
(03:26):
cap. And I was crowned Estherbecause I happened to own a
really big tiara. So that's howI got to be Esther. And, you
know, Wild Blue Yonder is reallywho I aspire to be today. I call
myself a homeschool radicalfairy because I, you know, I
(03:47):
never had time to go to a aspiritual gathering of the
radical fairies, and it's, youknow, all around the country and
around the world, there arethese really sacred lands where
gay gay people have, foundplaces to have containers.
And, so I got to the radicalfairies late in life, in terms
(04:10):
of going to the gatherings, butI really believe that the
principles that they practice,which are caring for others and
volunteering and attention tothe earth and natural farming
and a lot of the work that men'sembodiment work does. And the
and the heart of radical fairiesis starting every day with art
(04:31):
circle, which is, which is arhyme for what you two do and
what you two offer people. Youknow, all circles are a little
different, and they all havetheir own way and, depending on,
you know, the the theme, and youbring in breath work and,
topics. But for me, it's the thepower and empowerment is when
(04:57):
you can bring people together todo that. And when I was running
victory programs, you know, wewe and and you you, you know and
and especially in the height ofthe AIDS epidemic when all
institutions had abandoned gaypeople and homeless people and
(05:17):
people living with addiction,religious institutions, medical
institutions, politicalinstitutions, all we had, and
the heart of my treatmentprogram was heart circles every
single day.
And, you know, some peoplelistening may know them as 12
step meetings, but it's for me,it's all the same kind of
(05:39):
opportunity to to find yourfeelings wherever they are
today, however imperfect theymay be, and to the the power of
participation by just listening.Mhmm. So, you know, I was out
before the AIDS epidemic, youknow, was part of our
(06:01):
vocabulary, and it was a wildtime in the seventies and early
eighties for gay men and bathhouses and outdoor sex, and you
had to go out to meet people.You had to physically meet
people and get to know them, youknow, whether you know, I there
wasn't a weekend in my earlytwenties that I wasn't at the
(06:21):
clubs Friday, Saturday, Sundaytea dance, and, you know, and it
and it's also why the clubs inProvincetown were so important
because people coming around theworld, you know, finally had a
place to go and to meet people.It's very different today with
the apps when you're sort ofjudged on a photograph or 10
words, and you think you knowsomebody.
(06:43):
And and, of course, none of usever are are photographs are the
10 words that we pick. But I youknow, when when we first
discovered this terrible diseasethat was happening to people we
knew in the community and ourfriends. And for me in Boston,
(07:06):
the big year was 1986. AlthoughAIDS had been, you know,
happening very swiftly in NewYork and San Francisco and LA
and the bigger cities, thesmaller cities seem to have a
little later impact. And, youknow, those of us in Boston were
a little like, well, it's notaffecting us yet.
But, boy, it when it did, itdid. And 1986 was you know, my
(07:30):
three best friends died thatyear, and they all died very,
very quickly. And I got testedin 1987, and in what is now, I
think, historically, the longestprocrastination in picking up
test results, it took me twoyears before I went back to the
(07:50):
Fenway Health to get my results,and they were positive. And the
reason why I didn't wanna pickup my results before that is
because there was nothinganybody could do. But we all
knew about safe sex, and at thatpoint, we were all really pretty
sure about most of thetransmission, blood to blood
(08:11):
through sex, through needles,through, you know, the if you're
if you're receiving an infusion.
So hemophiliacs, gay men, peoplefrom Haiti, IV drug users, sex
workers, and, and nobody caredabout this group for years and
(08:32):
years and years. You know, whenI met you, Eric, we were in the
midst or just really startinganother worldwide pandemic, and,
so I've had the this the theexciting opportunity to live
through two worldwide pandemicsnow. But a couple of the major
differences when I met you is wewe couldn't, well, the one thing
(08:57):
that was absolutely clear wasthe rush to get a vaccine around
COVID was immediate, and it wasall people talked about, and
every scientist, and everypharmaceutical company was at a
race. The lethargy around HIVand AIDS was was beyond
(09:19):
disheartening. It was murder,and, thousands of people died
because nobody nobody who coulddid.
And, and, even our presidentRonald Reagan never once during
his term publicly mentioned theword AIDS. So I got very
involved in ACT UP, and becausethere was no kind of medical
(09:43):
care, at all, there was nonothing you could do, All we had
was each other, and an amazingthing happened to me. You know?
It was right after I wasdiagnosed, and I was a young
young guy in my, you know, latetwenties. And, you know, at that
time, all I really wanted was aboyfriend, or I wanted love, or
(10:06):
I wanted all the things, youknow, the fairy tales told you
about.
And here I was harboring a fataland incurable disease, and at
the time it was, and we didn'tknow if we would be alive within
six months. And the disease sideof it was really horrible, and
we had all these acronyms likecrypto was for cryptosporidium
(10:26):
for people that just lostweight. You know, you would have
these handsome bodybuilders thatwould become skeletons, you
know, really literallyovernight, KS for Carposis
sarcoma, which was horrible,horrible lesions on your body. I
remember visiting my friend Markin the Lemuel Shattuck Hospital,
and his legions were everywhere.I he was unrecognizable, and it
(10:51):
was so, so horrible.
PCP, pneumocystis pneumoniathat, you know, would fill your
lungs. It was the first time Ireally understood and heard the
word intubation because we knewthat if a friend of ours was
intubated, that was it. Theyprobably had a day left to live.
And and, you know, the and theworst for me was, CMV,
(11:13):
cytomegalovirus, which blindedyou. And my my partner, Kevin,
who was 30 years old, and he wasa beautiful bodybuilder and, gym
trainer, he he got CMV, and andmost people had all of these at
the end.
It wasn't just one. You were itwas a total collapse of the
(11:33):
immune system. So what do you dowhen you're facing all of that
and you're about 28 years old,and all of a sudden, every time
you meet somebody, you have todisclose that you have a fatal
and incurable disease. Do youwanna date me? And I you know,
at the time, I, you know, I hadonce I had somebody get up in
the middle of a of a dinner dateand just say to me, I can't
(11:56):
handle this and leave.
And it things like that happenedall all the time. But I had gone
to an event where they werehonoring people who were doing
work with AIDS. It was an AIDSaction committee event in
Boston, and a person getting theaward was a woman named doctor
Anne Webster, and she she wasbeautiful. She looked like Julie
(12:19):
Christie, if you remember her,the old British the movies
British movie star. She had redhair, ringlets, and a beautiful
smile and green eyes, and shehad just wonderful, wonderful
energy.
New Yorker who was doing herwork in Boston with doctor Herb
Benson at the Beth IsraelDeaconess Hospital, in the mind
body program, and they weredoing evidence based work on the
(12:42):
relaxation response, which wasteaching people how to breathe,
teaching people how to meditate,teaching people really
facilitating visualization. AndI and at this event I went to,
she was getting an award, andwhen her name was announced, I I
(13:03):
saw dozens and dozens of guys Iknow stand up and cheer. And I
knew, you know, I knew I wasgonna take her group. And it was
a ten week program, and she wasreally the first person that
really taught me the power ofbreathing. And so when I began
(13:26):
going to the men's embodimentgroup, it was it was for me both
familiar, but also somethingthat I really wanted to I really
wanted to integrate in my life.
I wanted not just Jonathan andnot just Esther, but really the
person I wanna be, the Wild BlueYonder, which is my radical
(13:48):
fairy name. You can call me WildBlue for short.
Timothy Bish (13:54):
And Can I jump in for something? So so first of
all, thank you for sharing allof that. And I want I wanna get
into more of the minutiae of ofthat group that you just talked
about, the breath, and how ithow it serves because,
obviously, that's what we lovedoing. But before we do that
Right. Something that I reallyheard you saying in so many ways
was this power of togetherness.
(14:16):
And at one point when you weretelling the story and you were
saying that these groups thatyou were working to support and
some of these groups to whichyou belonged felt without help,
without support, withoutacknowledgment, and you said all
we had was each other. Right. SoI wonder if you could just speak
a little bit to the power ofcoming together consciously. And
(14:39):
in the context of right now inthis moment, it feels like that
understanding of
Jonathan Scott (14:45):
the power is there, and it feels like it's
part of why they're trying toseparate us and, like, why
they're pulling trans people,for example, and and sort of
separating us from our becausethere is power when we're
together. So I'm wondering, doyou have So it's you're you're
right, Tim. I mean, I I think itit was all we had was each
(15:06):
other. And I I went foreverything because there were no
doctors that could help you, andeverybody had sort of turned
their back on us. So, you know,AIDS, Medicine, and Miracle, you
know, conference with Mary AnnWilliamson, Positive Directions,
Northern Lights Alternatives.
(15:29):
I mean, there were just so manygroups that I did, and and the
heart of all these groups washeart circle work, which is what
both of you and the containeryou're creating with your men's
embodiment group is very, verymuch the same. And it was what I
was attracted to, and it wasvery, very much a part of my
(15:50):
personal life, even though I wasalso doing that work and my
staff was doing that kind ofwork in our treatment programs
as well. I it wasn't until Iwent to my first gathering, a
spiritual gathering of radicalfairies. It was Beltane. It was
(16:11):
May 1.
And, again, I came very, verylate to going to a radical fairy
sanctuary. But in the heartcircle, I really discovered, and
it was Harry Hay ascontroversial controversial as
he could be, he was the founderof the radical fairies and the
(16:33):
Mattachine Society before thatand had spent decades and
decades living with NativeAmericans, and he brought the
ritual of heart circle to gaymen. He brought the ritual of of
creating magic spaces for eachother where we could be whoever
we wanted to be. And I think,you know, his basis, and it's
(16:59):
also very much what you two aredoing is I'm a subject. You're
an object.
And we look at each other assubject object often. You know,
you go on any of the apps, andit's like you judge somebody by
a photograph or, again, a fewwords that they put down. You
think you know them and, youknow, contact them for a hookup
(17:20):
or a date or whatever it is.Aerie was like, no. No.
No. No. No. We should nevermodel our relationships after
heterosexuals, but they mustalways be ethical. And I love
that word because ethical isreally what does that mean to
you?
And, but the other thing he he II think that I really found,
(17:46):
which is the heart of theradical fairies, is to move from
subject object to subjectsubject. How do you get to stop
looking at somebody just in themost superficial way? And the
big word, the big I word isintimacy. And intimacy is happen
(18:06):
is what happens in a heartcircle.
Eric Bomyea (18:08):
Mhmm.
Jonathan Scott (18:08):
So you've both integrated this beautiful
technique of breathing andsharing through a whatever the
discussion topic or the word is,but you've also created this
magic container where people cancan be, for this one moment in
(18:30):
time, free and safe to saywhatever is in their heart
without judgment and without, orinstruction. Nobody's saying you
well, do this, do that. Youknow? And I think, really, all
of the the heart circles that Iam in are very much, very much
like that, that it's asimportant to be a listener and
(18:53):
part as you're a participant asit is when it's your opportunity
to speak.
Timothy Bish (18:58):
You know? I can't tell you how many times in men's
workspaces and many of the men'sworkspaces I have been in have
not been exclusively queer. Butbecause men typically have been
conditioned to be so separatefrom their emotions and their
feelings and their experience,just listening to another person
share their experience, whichalmost certainly you can relate
(19:20):
to on some level, is can be theopening, can be the beginning of
you sort of, oh, I'm not soalone. So this listening to
other people, even if you nevershare in the first few circles,
can be the medicine you need.And so you that's what I'm
hearing you say, and I and I'veobserved it.
I think you're absolutely right.You just need permission to know
(19:42):
this is something we can do. Andthen oftentimes also, oh, you
felt that too? Right. I've beenfeeling that, but I've been over
here thinking I'm the only one.
Right. And then you're like, oh,no. You and you and oh, okay. We
have more in common than Ithought.
Eric Bomyea (19:55):
Right. Especially when if we go back to one of the
examples you gave of this timewhere doctors wouldn't even work
with many people with HIV andAIDS. And it's like when you
don't feel seen by people thatare supposed to be there to take
care of you, The importance ofgatherings like this, of places
where you can bring yourfullness to be seen, to be
(20:16):
heard, can be lifesaving. And Ithink we see that work today of
the feeling that you get just bycoming and participating, by
listening, by being in thatenvironment where you can bring
your fullness, where you canbring all of your authenticity
to one place, even if it's forjust a couple minutes.
Jonathan Scott (20:38):
And it goes you know, and you too as
facilitators are also very mucha part of the group too, and I
think that's a very radicalfairy thing that there's no real
leader or somebody telling youthis is the way or these are the
rules, but you you facilitate tomove the circle and allow it,
all these things to happen. But
Timothy Bish (20:59):
That's really that's a really big part of my
teacher's lineage, and which ispartly why I was so excited to
have Eric join as a facilitatorbecause that's exactly right.
There there there isn't meant tobe a hierarchy. But now when
someone's facilitating, they'recreating a structure, and so
that that exists. But, the powerof being able to one day be
(21:20):
leading and then the next weeksit down and be led because it
isn't about any one person. It'sabout us.
Right. And I think that's sopowerful. Like, the circle
doesn't belong to one person. Itbelongs to everyone who wants to
come to it. Yeah.
There's real power in that.
Eric Bomyea (21:35):
Absolutely. I started the circles off. I have
a little message that I sayabout we sit in a circle because
in a circle, we all can be seenand heard equally. If we are
equidistanced from the center,all of us are on a spoke. Right?
That that creates that thatequality, that equilibrium
within the the space.
Timothy Bish (21:55):
Can can I jump in for I I I'm curious because I
remember when I was a young boy,in the eighties, you know,
outside of Pittsburgh, and therethe this image of gay people,
and the way that my family wouldtalk about it, you know, they
had all these different things.And one of the things was about,
like, how flamboyant and, like,over the top. And, of course,
(22:16):
the only picture you would eversee if you were me or you know,
was, like, that one picture fromthe pride parade. You know? But
now as I'm talking to you and Iunderstand more about radical
fairy culture and all this, Iwonder if part of it was,
especially at that time, needinga place where you could be so
unapologetically authenticbecause so many other places you
(22:39):
were either forced or beingasked to suppress either parts
or all of you.
Can you speak to a little bitabout, like, the importance of
that, like, full unapologeticexpression, especially with
regards to healing?
Jonathan Scott (22:52):
Yeah. I mean, you know, when I went to the the
first radical very spiritualgathering, and again, it was
Beltane, so there were a lot ofpeople there, you walk in. It's
a little like opening the gatesto the Land Of Oz. I was
completely unprepared, and therewere probably half a dozen
(23:13):
people at the entrance gate.They were just, you know,
dressed like they had juststepped out of Cirque du Soleil.
I mean, they were wearingwhatever they wanted, and I
could look in the distance andsee people wearing nothing. And
and every single one of them, aswe entered, just said, welcome
home. Oh. And it was really youknow, it was like, okay. And it
(23:36):
was, you know, I think, again,when you you, you strip away all
of the the the roles that all ofthe people inside you, you know,
you shed all of these lives, yougo and, you know, at the at the
fairy sanctuaries, many peopleare create a new name or, you
(23:59):
know, you nobody really caredabout what I did professionally,
but people really cared abouthow I was feeling and how I was
coping.
And, again, every day beginswith a heart circle, and that's
how you got to know people. I acouple years ago, there's sort
of this offshoot of a a workshopthat, radical fairies have been
(24:24):
doing since Harry Hay for fortyyears called sex magic, and it,
for gay men, you know, that'slike, wow. This sounds like fun.
And, so I did a sex magicworkshop in Spain with 15 we
went to the woods for ten dayswith a dozen 15, you know, gay
men from all around the world,Germany, Holland, Sri Lanka,
(24:49):
Israel, United Kingdom. I wasthe only person actually there
from The US, and, every daybegan with with, heart circles.
And, you know, I had all Irealized then I had I was making
all these judgments about peoplein the group or assumptions
about who they were and whatthey felt. I was really and by
(25:12):
day three and, you know, thesesort of this kind of sharing and
talking, I realized I don't knowanything about anybody. And,
Jonathan, what you know, shutup. Just listen. Let other
people be, and, maybe you'llreally learn something.
And so by the end of theworkshop, I I like to say that
(25:35):
there was a lot of magic for me,but there was no sex at all. But
the magic but, you know, when Iheld hands at the very end with
these 15 people, it was, for me,like, the best sex I've ever had
because it was the most intimateI had ever been with a group of
people about being a gay man.And and and all the struggles
(26:00):
we've had in coming out, and,you know, and my story was
repeated in a rhyme form witheverybody in the room. We all we
all feel often very much thesame way, all although, you
know, our our roots gettingthere, you know, comes from
different places.
Eric Bomyea (26:19):
I love that story so much because there is such an
intimacy when we stop trying tofigure out who a person is.
Right. And we get curious abouthow they're doing. And by
sharing stories of our comingout, of our vulnerabilities, of
our vulnerable moments, even inthe present moment of how we are
(26:41):
or how we were in that, wereally get to see people. We
really get to experience them.
And it's moving beyond the whoare you, what do you do, to how
are you.
Jonathan Scott (26:52):
Right. And I find with your group too, I
mean, P Town's a small town, andI live here full time. And I
might not, you know, knoweverybody, but I certainly see
people all the time. And thereare a number of people that have
come in and out of your groupthat I have seen, talked to,
said hi to, or or maybe not. Andhow powerful that's been to just
(27:16):
say, wow.
They are. There's a lot. Youknow? If I open up my heart, you
know, I can really get to knowsomebody, and, it's been really,
really beautiful to get to knowother people in this town in a
very different way, you know,than I don't go to the clubs
anymore, but, you know, it isit's really been a beautiful way
as well as also learning andreminding myself, you know, when
(27:42):
all else fails and all elsefails a lot, the power we have
in our own breath, and we can'tyou know, we have no control of
another person, place, or thing,but we have control of our own
attitudes and our own behaviorand what we say and the words we
use. And I find that your group,helps ground people in creating
(28:07):
that kind of language and thatkind of vocabulary, which is not
natural for most of us on a youknow, we're not living all the
time in a fairy sanctuary orgoing to, you know, groups all
the time like this.
Timothy Bish (28:20):
Well, I'd like to ask you, what I've noticed in
the group over the, what, twonow maybe two and a half years
ish that it's been happening isthat the men who are coming are
are wanting something a littledifferent. And it feels like
there are a lot of people, I'llspeak for myself, but I think a
lot of people have voiced to mesometimes feeling overwhelmed
(28:43):
with the expectation of a queerperson or more specifically
maybe a gay man. Right? And thatthe places we're meant to go,
you know, we we have tea dancesand and dance parties and clubs.
And and can you speak a littlebit about how these circles can
help create a necessary balance?
(29:04):
Because it isn't really aboutgetting rid of anything, but
it's about having theopportunity for many things, it
seems to me. How do you feelabout that?
Jonathan Scott (29:13):
Well, you know, I think you're totally accurate,
and I think, you know, it again,it's it we all want love,
boyfriends, and we all wantfriends, people in our lives,
and, you know, this is a way toreally begin to cut through, I
(29:34):
think, a lot of superficialstuff. You know? It's not a
club. It's not a a dance partyor or or some event, but you're
really mindfully making adecision to, you know, find a
place of of peace and serenityand whatever courage it takes to
(29:57):
come to a group. You know?
I feel like a newcomer withwhatever group I'm in. Even
though I've been to your groupsa number of times, I feel like
every time I come, it's a newday. We're sitting in different
places, and that I, you know, Idon't feel any more confident
(30:19):
than anybody else in the roomwhether somebody's coming for
the first time or has come toevery one of your groups. So I
think there's this real beautyof creating a platform that
we're all equal. And I think forme, that's the difference
between some of the, you know,other ways we interact to try
(30:40):
and get to know people, and, youknow, it's it's not artificial.
I mean, this is the way we havetold stories since the beginning
of time. You know,
Eric Bomyea (30:52):
humans have been gathering in circles for a very
long time. And Right. The thethe main difference what I'm
hearing you say and what I'veexperienced is the
intentionality of the space.Right. You said earlier that
through ritual, we createmagical spaces.
Jonathan Scott (31:07):
Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea (31:08):
And that's what we do. And this is not a slam at
the clubs because they do servea purpose, a time, and a place.
There is very little ritualaround many of those spaces.
There's very little consciousintention behind those spaces.
So being able to be in spacethat was ritualistically,
(31:29):
intentionally set so that themagic of being together can
really blossom to say, hey,we're gathering today.
Jonathan Scott (31:36):
And I've met left many clubs and many events
not feeling really good aboutmyself or feeling kind of more
lonely than when I got there orfeeling just kinda tired. But,
you know, when you choose to goto a group like this, there has
never really been a time where Ihaven't you know, a secret
(31:56):
shared is a secret cut in half,and at least. And I think
Eric Bomyea (32:02):
I love that.
Jonathan Scott (32:04):
I I think that, you know, again, we're we're all
equals. I've had this whole lifeexperience and, you know,
different from other people's,but it it's all you know,
history doesn't repeat itself.It only rhymes, and I think I
really see that in all of us.
Timothy Bish (32:23):
Well, you know, my teachers would say, like, ritual
and ceremony, is importantbecause things are important
when we say so.
Eric Bomyea (32:30):
Right.
Timothy Bish (32:30):
And so when I was doing my Jeeva Mukti yoga
teacher training, I've mentionedthis many times, the 14 points.
And so these 14 things you haveto include in order for it to be
an open class. And when we firstlearned it, some of the people
were like, well, isn't thatgonna be confining? Isn't that
and then what we discovered wasit allowed that structure
allowed for unbelievablecreativity and almost like
(32:51):
infinite possibility. And so Iwanna draw this back now to a
few years ago shortly after theembodiment circle had started, I
ran a conscious connectionworkshop that was it was it was
gonna include nudity, and it waslike, it wasn't marketed
specifically for for only queermen, but it was a men's, you
know, workshop.
(33:12):
But there were some parametersaround it. And one of the
parameters was like, there's notgonna be any sexual activity in
this workshop even though therewill be nudity. And the and the
the response that we got, themen were so one one man said it
restored his faith in humanity.It a lot but so in some moment,
I feel like, oh, you got torelax in some way. You didn't
(33:33):
you didn't have to worry aboutwhether or not you had to, like,
perform in a particular waybecause the structure allowed
you to not do that.
And so then it all became aboutintimacy, which is why I bring
it up because you mentionedearlier the importance of
intimacy. And I think it's soimportant for us to understand
that there are so many kinds ofintimacy, so many valuable
healing things that can beintimate that aren't necessarily
(33:58):
sexual, even though sex canobviously be intimate, and
that's important. So we're notsaying no. Actually, I'm saying
more, please. But but but butbut and can I sit and stare at
you in the eye as a friend?
Can I can I connect with you inall these other ways also, like,
in addition to it? So Right.Like, can can you speak to that
a little bit?
Jonathan Scott (34:15):
Well, I mean, again, it's it's when you create
the container for subjectsubject, and, you know, you just
you you, you know, can you youdevelop you it's a quantum leap
in in in not only yourdevelopment, your openness, but
(34:35):
really your friendship withother people too and how, you
know, I think how you you Theway that you engage. The way
that you engage. Right.
Eric Bomyea (34:47):
When we move from subject to object, if I'm just
looking at you as an object ofwhich something I can get
something from you, whether thatis a favor or sex or money or
job, whatever it might be, and Istart looking at you as a human
being and as a subject, thatengagement automatically shifts.
And when we create these magicalcontainers in which we can bring
(35:11):
people into that manner ofengagement, that's where the
intimacy starts to
Timothy Bish (35:15):
happen. And I would like to bring in a lot of
compassion because and I knowthat I know that it's there,
this idea of, you know, if Ilook at someone as an object,
well, I might be doing thatbecause I've grown up being
modeled that. People have beenlooking at me as an object. And
it really becomes this sort ofreframe of how we think about
the world we live in and thepeople and our connections. So
(35:38):
for the people who might be insubject object manner of
engagement, it may not bebecause they're some diabolical
person stroking their fluffycat.
They'd be like, oh, you may nothave known that there's this is
even possible.
Eric Bomyea (35:51):
Right?
Timothy Bish (35:51):
And so one of the things one of the reasons this
podcast exists and why we do thecircle is to help people, oh,
there are other ways ofengaging. And so just a lot of
compassion there because, youknow, when I think about when I
think about the work I'm doingnow and some of the stuff that's
been in my life now and my, youknow, growing up in Pittsburgh
(36:12):
in the eighties and nineties,like, everything I'm doing now,
my family would have thought wasthe weirdest, craziest stuff. I
needed people to introduce me. Imean, I'm an acupuncturist. And
in Pittsburgh, that would thatwould have sounded like lunacy.
You're gonna put needles in you,and I needed people to that I
trusted. So it was a longprocess. So for people, it's
(36:34):
like, it isn't gonna be a lightswitch where suddenly everything
changes, but come try. Feel givethings a shot. Talk to people.
Hear their experience becausepeople are getting benefit from
it. People are finding ease,finding depth, finding
connection, and how unbelievablyvaluable that is. I mean, I'm
thinking about I remembermeeting you at the brewery.
(36:57):
Right. Right.
And I don't know. That was,what, a year and a half ago
maybe? And how much I value thedepth that we've been able to
create over that period of time,you know, much in the last few
months, but that is reallyvaluable to me. Lots of people
can have that if they know thatthere's permission and that
there's there are places andways.
Jonathan Scott (37:19):
And yes. And especially in circle work, it's
very active to just be alistener, and that's also very
hard for me because, oh, I'vegot so many stories, and, oh, I
can tell you all the all the
Eric Bomyea (37:33):
things really fun stories. Shoulda,
Jonathan Scott (37:35):
woulda, coulda, you shoulda done with your life
and how to make things betterand just to shut up and just to
listen. There's a there's a 12step acronym called wait. Why am
I talking? Or waste. Why am Istill talking?
And so for me, it's it's really,I mean, I can get on the phone
(38:00):
and just blab to anybody aboutwhat's going on, but for me to
just really, really actively bea witness to to other people's
journey, whatever way, shape, orform they take it, and it's it's
very, very powerful.
Eric Bomyea (38:18):
And It's not just the facilitators who are
actively engaged in creating thespace. It's all the
participants. If everyone joinsin with that same mindset, the
power of that container isincredible. It is so potent when
everyone comes in with that oflike, Oh, let me participate by
listening. Let me participate bywitnessing.
(38:41):
Right.
Timothy Bish (38:43):
And listening and witnessing from so many levels.
So in the embodiment work,having like, listening with our
full body. How how does it feelto stand in front of this
person? Like, what am I feelingin my body? What am I sensing?
Not just necessarily theirwords, although there's
opportunity for that too. Andthis brings me back to this
image of the radical fairies andI think some of, like, the work
(39:05):
that they're doing and theimportance because we can listen
to a person's expression when weallow them the opportunity to
dress and express the way theywant to and and and how powerful
that can be. And I'm thinkingI've never been to a radical
fairy gathering yet, although Idid get my first invite, and so
I'm excited. I'm excited. Butprior to that, like, here in
(39:26):
Provincetown, I have hadpowerful experiences during
carnival when I've been reallyinvolved in creating whatever
the thing is I wanna create.
And I realized later, oh, it'sbecause I was able to bring an
expression that mattered to me,and then I felt seen in that
(39:47):
expression. There was powerthere. And so it sounds like the
radical fairies are creatingthat opportunity. Am I hearing
you right about that?
Jonathan Scott (39:54):
Oh, And you go to a gathering and, you know,
you go to a lot of workshops inyour life and and, you know, or
conferences, and every hour,there's a different speaker or a
different group that you can goto. Well, there's a lot that
goes on at the spiritualgatherings of radical fairies,
but there's nobody really incharge. So if people wanna do a
(40:16):
group, they just write it on aboard, and there'll be a yoga
group or there'll be a groupfor, you know, people dealing
you know, gay gay men who'swho've survived cancer or or or
just heart circles. You know?The the when you finish a sex
magic workshop, and it's reallythe most beautiful, beautiful
(40:41):
gay term, and I I love it.
But when you finish it, youbecome and it's a phrase that
Harry Hay coined. You becomepart of a circle of loving
companions. And you are alsocreating your own circle of
loving companions. It's not thesame intensity and all of that
other work that goes in, but itdoesn't matter because it it it
(41:07):
launches people to discover allthe other things they wanna
wanna do and can do. And there'syou know?
Timothy Bish (41:13):
My teacher would delight in hearing you say that
because I I believe it's true. Ibelieve all the all the circles
that I've been a part of, theones that I've created and the
ones that I've participated in,have been that, and how
beautiful that is.
Jonathan Scott (41:24):
Right. Thank you for that. Circles of loving
companions. And it's a really,to me, a really beautiful way of
just describing gayrelationships, and what Harry
Hay said was we should not modelour relationships after
heterosexuals. We should createour own language and just keep
them ethical.
Timothy Bish (41:41):
So this is why this is why I'm so glad you
brought that up because, I havebeen honored by my teacher to
run my first MWI program in inthe embodied masculine method,
and I'm gonna do it for forqueer men. And some people have
asked about why. And and I and Ido believe that there are
(42:01):
aspects of our experience thatare different. And not that they
can't be shared or, like,understood, but there is power
in the in the possibility ofrelating in a way that is more
truly authentic. And I feel likethat's what I'm hearing.
So it it isn't necessarily aboutseparate, but it's about a
foundation and possibility forour fullest authenticity.
Jonathan Scott (42:22):
And also a beautiful word because I was a
philosophy major in in myundergraduate work, and, really,
it every philosopher is reallyabout how how to become the most
authentic person you can be, andI think, you know, that is the
(42:45):
journey. That is really thejourney, and you you know, I'm
just really grateful to live ina town that isn't just a resort
town, but, you know, it has thisreal depth to it too. And it can
be superficial, but but I thinkthere are plenty of ways that we
can create, and you havecreated, and others are creating
(43:07):
these really, really beautifulritual spaces for people to come
together. And, you know, we wentto this beautiful moonlight
Beltane on the beach bonfirelast night, and probably, you
know, 30 people were there, andpeople dressed however they
wanted to dress and put on hatsor whatever they want, and it
(43:29):
was, you know, really, reallymagical. And we created a magic
space and a sort of fire bonfirefacilitator, you know, led us in
a way of really just thinkingabout where we were and why
we're together.
And even you know, it can bedone in really beautiful ways as
well, and and we live in anenvironment that, you know,
(43:54):
everything is moving here. Thewind moves. The leaves move. The
birds move. People are up anddown the street on bicycles.
The land is literally moving.The land is always moving, and
it's so stimulating, and it's soexciting. People often ask me,
you know, oh, aren't you, like,how can you live there off
season? I'm like, this is baby.You know?
I am never bored, and I'm neverlonely, though I'm often alone,
(44:18):
and, you know, I'm I I'm oftendoing the same kind of things I
do every day, walk my dog and goswimming and ride my bike and
call people. And but I I findthat, just to be a part of this
land is is really special. Thefairy sanctuaries are very
special land places too. Theyhave been been created through
(44:42):
blood, sweat, and tears, and,you know, I I don't even know
how how you can do that, how howhow we've been able to do that.
But
Timothy Bish (44:52):
I wanna have a little bit of a appreciation.
Last night at this Beltanebonfire, which was really
beautiful, I was reminded of thevariety of people that exist in
our community here inProvincetown and some of their
traditions. So Tangle calls inthe four directions differently
than I do and my teacher does,but it was powerful and magical
(45:13):
and so how wonderful that was.But also the creation of a
lineage. And we started thisconversation by talking about
the HIVAIDS epidemic, and wethink about all of the people
that we lost, all of the peoplethat would now be in the place
(45:34):
of wisdom keeper, storyteller,mentor, all of that.
And so we are in a moment nowwhere we could start to rebuild
and recreate that. And it is ofsuch importance, so valuable. I
feel very fortunate that I hadsome men in my life, some older
men who really taught me thingsthat I needed to know without
(45:56):
whom I would not have not havecome to understand it. And as we
build the circle, as we buildthis community, as we build the
podcast, that the intention isto have this as a resource
because because we need it. Andwe need to recognize some of the
things that we have today, likeprep, for example, came because
(46:16):
of so much hard work andsacrifice and loss and death.
And we need to honor that in thesame way that we honored the
first people in the Beltanebonfire. And and then we need to
build that and and and value it,cherish it, and bring it. So
thank you so much for comingwith your stories because this
(46:36):
is part of that process as faras I can see. And that's how it
feels to me.
Jonathan Scott (46:40):
Well, thank you, Tim. I mean, you know, there was
a beautiful poet, Paul Minette,who who died of AIDS, and he
once said that that losing allthe lovers and friends and
people to AIDS was like tossinghandfuls of diamonds into the
(47:01):
wild surf. And I feel like whatyou all are doing is sort of
finding those diamonds again. I,you know, I mean, I am very
aware that I am now twice as oldas so many people I loved, and
(47:22):
how I've gotten to travel aroundthe world and did my
professional thing, and evenadopted a kid, and how I've, you
know, had these beautifulbonfires and made friends and
had lovers and made mistakes andreally gotten to live, and how
gypped all these people were onthat, except what they left
(47:47):
behind is, you know, everythingin my heart. It's indelible as a
fingerprint, and I think, youknow, what you're doing is
exactly, you know, what theywould want.
Really. It's really, you knowtheir death is not in vain
because of the work that, youknow, you continue to do and to
(48:11):
bring people together, and, youknow, we don't have to wait for
a COVID crisis or AIDS crisisto, you know, be in a circle and
hold hands or or or learn how torelax and breathe. And I think,
you know, this is our watch. Youknow? We deal with planet Earth
experiences, whatever happens onour watch, and I had some pretty
(48:34):
crappy things just unbelievably,you know, tumultuous and and
heartbreaking.
And and and, you know, I builtvictory programs from that, and,
and it's, you know, still goingtoday, and thousands of people
go through it. And, you know, Iyou know, it's their journey. I
(48:54):
just I just did the bricks andmortar, but people come. If you
build it, they will come, andwhat you're doing is building
it. And people are comingbecause there's hunger, or I
really believe a hunger for thekind of intimacy, the kind of
caring, and the kind of ways ofjust learning how to cope and
not having to do it alone.
Timothy Bish (49:15):
Well, it's the mission it's my mission and I
think our shared mission and themission of this podcast to
continue to sharpen what webring to to be able to expand it
so that as many people that wantit and can benefit from it have
it available to them. And sothere's this very particular way
because you've been teaching usso beautifully today. A very
(49:36):
particular way in the yogatradition that I am been taught
to honor teachers, and that isthank you for teaching me.
Please stay in my life. So letit be on the record now.
If you are open to continuing tohelp us understand and share
this with the world, it would bea huge honor.
Jonathan Scott (49:56):
And we'll have a lot of fun doing it because if
you don't have a sense of humor,you know, you gotta do all this
with a little sense of humor.That's absolutely right. That's
absolutely right. Oh.
Eric Bomyea (50:06):
This is a beautiful episode of conversation
experience today. Be able to sitand hear these tales, to be able
to explore this topic, to take amoment from Tango last night,
(50:29):
bloom, baby bloom. Yeah. Bringyour
Timothy Bish (50:31):
baby bloom, baby bloom.
Eric Bomyea (50:32):
Like truly sitting here and witnessing authenticity
and being in a circle of men, ofloving companions. That's what
we are today and that's whatwe'll continue to be. And we're
gonna keep finding thosediamonds. Yeah. And we're gonna
(50:54):
keep polishing them up so thatthey can shine bright for years
and generations to come.
Yeah. We like things thatsparkle.
Jonathan Scott (51:02):
Hell yes. We do. We're all little magpies at
heart.
Eric Bomyea (51:08):
Thank you. I'm feeling very complete. How are
you, Tim?
Jonathan Scott (51:10):
Thank you. I feel complete. And Jonathan?
Well, I feel complete.
Timothy Bish (51:14):
Thank you.
Eric Bomyea (51:16):
Tim, will you take us out, please?
Jonathan Scott (51:18):
I will. So let's close
Timothy Bish (51:19):
our eyes and take an inhale through the nose and a
soft exhale through the mouth.And it is with the deepest
appreciation and gratitude forany insights, awarenesses,
understandings that we may havegained in today's sacred circle
that we now release thearchetypes and the spirits. And
(51:41):
it is with these words that ourcontainer is open but not
broken.
Eric Bomyea (51:44):
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Oh.
Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go
all in on men's work, embodimentpractices, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. Ifyou're enjoying the show, please
be sure to share your favoriteepisode, leave a review, and
subscribe. And if you have aquestion about anything you've
heard us talk about, please sendus a message. We'd love to hear
from you. And now onto the show.
Today, we're joined by JonathanScott, also known as Wild Blue
(00:25):
Yonder and Esther, the villagemermaid. A province town radical
ferry, you'll find him swimmingin the bay, singing to birds,
making flamingo pink jam fromwild beach roses, and walking
his Jack Russell keto. That'sketo with a q, like the capital
of Ecuador, not the diet with aK. Jonathan is also a lifelong
community organizer. He'sfounded the Victory Programs and
(00:46):
built 30 treatment homes forpeople facing HIV, addiction,
and homelessness.
During the height of the AIDSepidemic, when fear and stigma
were everywhere, Jonathan leanedinto community, gathering in
circles of care that becamesacred ground for healing and
resilience. We're so honored tohave him here today to take us
back to that time and share avital part of our queer history.
Tim, Jonathan, are you ready togo all in? Ready. I'm ready.
(01:09):
Let's go. Jonathan, I'm really,really happy that you're here
with us today. We first met acouple years back on the beach
when we were walking our dogs,and you welcomed me into town
with with lovingly socialdistanced arms. And you taught
me so much during our firstwalks together about life and
love during the height of theAIDS epidemic in the eighties
(01:29):
and nineties. And now today, weget to go even deeper because
you've been coming to the men'sembodiment circles here in town.
And it was at one of thesecircles that you mentioned how
important gatherings like thiswere and are, and you told us
about how you participated andhelped create what you called
circles of care, spaces wherepeople could come together, be
seen, and begin to heal in themidst of the AIDS crisis. I'd
(01:50):
love it if you could bring usback to that memory. What do you
remember about those earlygatherings?
Jonathan Scott (01:54):
Well, I wanna, first of all, thank you both for
the men's embodiment work thatyou are doing in creating this
incredibly beautiful, lovelycontainer and ritual for people
to come together, and it's areally sacred thing whenever
anybody can share from theheart. And I, you know, I have,
(02:19):
you introduced me with threedifferent names, and, you know,
we all, I think, live many livesand many roles the longer we go.
And, yeah, Jonathan is, theprofessional, and he had a lot
of checklists in life and did alot of things, know, lots of
pats on the back, chair of theboard of mass equality, fighting
(02:41):
for equal marriage, and chair ofthe board of Ryan White Planning
Council, and and running victoryprograms for the homeless living
with HIV and AIDS, alsoaddiction. And Esther, the
village mermaid, was really whoI was in when I wasn't doing
that, and I would come down toProvincetown in the seventies
(03:03):
and eighties, and we had thisreally wildly fun beach party
where everybody all you had todo is bring a bathing cap, and
we had this wild mayhem party onthe beach, and everybody came,
lesbians and gay men, and wewould do this water ballet at
the end.
And, you know, mostly, it wasnaked except for the bathing
(03:26):
cap. And I was crowned Estherbecause I happened to own a
really big tiara. So that's howI got to be Esther. And, you
know, Wild Blue Yonder is reallywho I aspire to be today. I call
myself a homeschool radicalfairy because I, you know, I
(03:47):
never had time to go to a aspiritual gathering of the
radical fairies, and it's, youknow, all around the country and
around the world, there arethese really sacred lands where
gay gay people have, foundplaces to have containers.
And, so I got to the radicalfairies late in life, in terms
(04:10):
of going to the gatherings, butI really believe that the
principles that they practice,which are caring for others and
volunteering and attention tothe earth and natural farming
and a lot of the work that men'sembodiment work does. And the
and the heart of radical fairiesis starting every day with art
(04:31):
circle, which is, which is arhyme for what you two do and
what you two offer people. Youknow, all circles are a little
different, and they all havetheir own way and, depending on,
you know, the the theme, and youbring in breath work and,
topics. But for me, it's the thepower and empowerment is when
(04:57):
you can bring people together todo that. And when I was running
victory programs, you know, wewe and and you you, you know and
and especially in the height ofthe AIDS epidemic when all
institutions had abandoned gaypeople and homeless people and
(05:17):
people living with addiction,religious institutions, medical
institutions, politicalinstitutions, all we had, and
the heart of my treatmentprogram was heart circles every
single day.
And, you know, some peoplelistening may know them as 12
step meetings, but it's for me,it's all the same kind of
(05:39):
opportunity to to find yourfeelings wherever they are
today, however imperfect theymay be, and to the the power of
participation by just listening.Mhmm. So, you know, I was out
before the AIDS epidemic, youknow, was part of our
(06:01):
vocabulary, and it was a wildtime in the seventies and early
eighties for gay men and bathhouses and outdoor sex, and you
had to go out to meet people.You had to physically meet
people and get to know them, youknow, whether you know, I there
wasn't a weekend in my earlytwenties that I wasn't at the
(06:21):
clubs Friday, Saturday, Sundaytea dance, and, you know, and it
and it's also why the clubs inProvincetown were so important
because people coming around theworld, you know, finally had a
place to go and to meet people.It's very different today with
the apps when you're sort ofjudged on a photograph or 10
words, and you think you knowsomebody.
(06:43):
And and, of course, none of usever are are photographs are the
10 words that we pick. But I youknow, when when we first
discovered this terrible diseasethat was happening to people we
knew in the community and ourfriends. And for me in Boston,
(07:06):
the big year was 1986. AlthoughAIDS had been, you know,
happening very swiftly in NewYork and San Francisco and LA
and the bigger cities, thesmaller cities seem to have a
little later impact. And, youknow, those of us in Boston were
a little like, well, it's notaffecting us yet.
But, boy, it when it did, itdid. And 1986 was you know, my
(07:30):
three best friends died thatyear, and they all died very,
very quickly. And I got testedin 1987, and in what is now, I
think, historically, the longestprocrastination in picking up
test results, it took me twoyears before I went back to the
(07:50):
Fenway Health to get my results,and they were positive. And the
reason why I didn't wanna pickup my results before that is
because there was nothinganybody could do. But we all
knew about safe sex, and at thatpoint, we were all really pretty
sure about most of thetransmission, blood to blood
(08:11):
through sex, through needles,through, you know, the if you're
if you're receiving an infusion.
So hemophiliacs, gay men, peoplefrom Haiti, IV drug users, sex
workers, and, and nobody caredabout this group for years and
(08:32):
years and years. You know, whenI met you, Eric, we were in the
midst or just really startinganother worldwide pandemic, and,
so I've had the this the theexciting opportunity to live
through two worldwide pandemicsnow. But a couple of the major
differences when I met you is wewe couldn't, well, the one thing
(08:57):
that was absolutely clear wasthe rush to get a vaccine around
COVID was immediate, and it wasall people talked about, and
every scientist, and everypharmaceutical company was at a
race. The lethargy around HIVand AIDS was was beyond
(09:19):
disheartening. It was murder,and, thousands of people died
because nobody nobody who coulddid.
And, and, even our presidentRonald Reagan never once during
his term publicly mentioned theword AIDS. So I got very
involved in ACT UP, and becausethere was no kind of medical
(09:43):
care, at all, there was nonothing you could do, All we had
was each other, and an amazingthing happened to me. You know?
It was right after I wasdiagnosed, and I was a young
young guy in my, you know, latetwenties. And, you know, at that
time, all I really wanted was aboyfriend, or I wanted love, or
(10:06):
I wanted all the things, youknow, the fairy tales told you
about.
And here I was harboring a fataland incurable disease, and at
the time it was, and we didn'tknow if we would be alive within
six months. And the disease sideof it was really horrible, and
we had all these acronyms likecrypto was for cryptosporidium
(10:26):
for people that just lostweight. You know, you would have
these handsome bodybuilders thatwould become skeletons, you
know, really literallyovernight, KS for Carposis
sarcoma, which was horrible,horrible lesions on your body. I
remember visiting my friend Markin the Lemuel Shattuck Hospital,
and his legions were everywhere.I he was unrecognizable, and it
(10:51):
was so, so horrible.
PCP, pneumocystis pneumoniathat, you know, would fill your
lungs. It was the first time Ireally understood and heard the
word intubation because we knewthat if a friend of ours was
intubated, that was it. Theyprobably had a day left to live.
And and, you know, the and theworst for me was, CMV,
(11:13):
cytomegalovirus, which blindedyou. And my my partner, Kevin,
who was 30 years old, and he wasa beautiful bodybuilder and, gym
trainer, he he got CMV, and andmost people had all of these at
the end.
It wasn't just one. You were itwas a total collapse of the
(11:33):
immune system. So what do you dowhen you're facing all of that
and you're about 28 years old,and all of a sudden, every time
you meet somebody, you have todisclose that you have a fatal
and incurable disease. Do youwanna date me? And I you know,
at the time, I, you know, I hadonce I had somebody get up in
the middle of a of a dinner dateand just say to me, I can't
(11:56):
handle this and leave.
And it things like that happenedall all the time. But I had gone
to an event where they werehonoring people who were doing
work with AIDS. It was an AIDSaction committee event in
Boston, and a person getting theaward was a woman named doctor
Anne Webster, and she she wasbeautiful. She looked like Julie
(12:19):
Christie, if you remember her,the old British the movies
British movie star. She had redhair, ringlets, and a beautiful
smile and green eyes, and shehad just wonderful, wonderful
energy.
New Yorker who was doing herwork in Boston with doctor Herb
Benson at the Beth IsraelDeaconess Hospital, in the mind
body program, and they weredoing evidence based work on the
(12:42):
relaxation response, which wasteaching people how to breathe,
teaching people how to meditate,teaching people really
facilitating visualization. AndI and at this event I went to,
she was getting an award, andwhen her name was announced, I I
(13:03):
saw dozens and dozens of guys Iknow stand up and cheer. And I
knew, you know, I knew I wasgonna take her group. And it was
a ten week program, and she wasreally the first person that
really taught me the power ofbreathing. And so when I began
(13:26):
going to the men's embodimentgroup, it was it was for me both
familiar, but also somethingthat I really wanted to I really
wanted to integrate in my life.
I wanted not just Jonathan andnot just Esther, but really the
person I wanna be, the Wild BlueYonder, which is my radical
(13:48):
fairy name. You can call me WildBlue for short.
Timothy Bish (13:54):
And Can I jump in for something? So so first of
all, thank you for sharing allof that. And I want I wanna get
into more of the minutiae of ofthat group that you just talked
about, the breath, and how ithow it serves because,
obviously, that's what we lovedoing. But before we do that
Right. Something that I reallyheard you saying in so many ways
was this power of togetherness.
(14:16):
And at one point when you weretelling the story and you were
saying that these groups thatyou were working to support and
some of these groups to whichyou belonged felt without help,
without support, withoutacknowledgment, and you said all
we had was each other. Right. SoI wonder if you could just speak
a little bit to the power ofcoming together consciously. And
(14:39):
in the context of right now inthis moment, it feels like that
understanding of
Jonathan Scott (14:45):
the power is there, and it feels like it's
part of why they're trying toseparate us and, like, why
they're pulling trans people,for example, and and sort of
separating us from our becausethere is power when we're
together. So I'm wondering, doyou have So it's you're you're
right, Tim. I mean, I I think itit was all we had was each
(15:06):
other. And I I went foreverything because there were no
doctors that could help you, andeverybody had sort of turned
their back on us. So, you know,AIDS, Medicine, and Miracle, you
know, conference with Mary AnnWilliamson, Positive Directions,
Northern Lights Alternatives.
(15:29):
I mean, there were just so manygroups that I did, and and the
heart of all these groups washeart circle work, which is what
both of you and the containeryou're creating with your men's
embodiment group is very, verymuch the same. And it was what I
was attracted to, and it wasvery, very much a part of my
(15:50):
personal life, even though I wasalso doing that work and my
staff was doing that kind ofwork in our treatment programs
as well. I it wasn't until Iwent to my first gathering, a
spiritual gathering of radicalfairies. It was Beltane. It was
(16:11):
May 1.
And, again, I came very, verylate to going to a radical fairy
sanctuary. But in the heartcircle, I really discovered, and
it was Harry Hay ascontroversial controversial as
he could be, he was the founderof the radical fairies and the
(16:33):
Mattachine Society before thatand had spent decades and
decades living with NativeAmericans, and he brought the
ritual of heart circle to gaymen. He brought the ritual of of
creating magic spaces for eachother where we could be whoever
we wanted to be. And I think,you know, his basis, and it's
(16:59):
also very much what you two aredoing is I'm a subject. You're
an object.
And we look at each other assubject object often. You know,
you go on any of the apps, andit's like you judge somebody by
a photograph or, again, a fewwords that they put down. You
think you know them and, youknow, contact them for a hookup
(17:20):
or a date or whatever it is.Aerie was like, no. No.
No. No. No. We should nevermodel our relationships after
heterosexuals, but they mustalways be ethical. And I love
that word because ethical isreally what does that mean to
you?
And, but the other thing he he II think that I really found,
(17:46):
which is the heart of theradical fairies, is to move from
subject object to subjectsubject. How do you get to stop
looking at somebody just in themost superficial way? And the
big word, the big I word isintimacy. And intimacy is happen
(18:06):
is what happens in a heartcircle.
Eric Bomyea (18:08):
Mhmm.
Jonathan Scott (18:08):
So you've both integrated this beautiful
technique of breathing andsharing through a whatever the
discussion topic or the word is,but you've also created this
magic container where people cancan be, for this one moment in
(18:30):
time, free and safe to saywhatever is in their heart
without judgment and without, orinstruction. Nobody's saying you
well, do this, do that. Youknow? And I think, really, all
of the the heart circles that Iam in are very much, very much
like that, that it's asimportant to be a listener and
(18:53):
part as you're a participant asit is when it's your opportunity
to speak.
Timothy Bish (18:58):
You know? I can't tell you how many times in men's
workspaces and many of the men'sworkspaces I have been in have
not been exclusively queer. Butbecause men typically have been
conditioned to be so separatefrom their emotions and their
feelings and their experience,just listening to another person
share their experience, whichalmost certainly you can relate
(19:20):
to on some level, is can be theopening, can be the beginning of
you sort of, oh, I'm not soalone. So this listening to
other people, even if you nevershare in the first few circles,
can be the medicine you need.And so you that's what I'm
hearing you say, and I and I'veobserved it.
I think you're absolutely right.You just need permission to know
(19:42):
this is something we can do. Andthen oftentimes also, oh, you
felt that too? Right. I've beenfeeling that, but I've been over
here thinking I'm the only one.
Right. And then you're like, oh,no. You and you and oh, okay. We
have more in common than Ithought.
Eric Bomyea (19:55):
Right. Especially when if we go back to one of the
examples you gave of this timewhere doctors wouldn't even work
with many people with HIV andAIDS. And it's like when you
don't feel seen by people thatare supposed to be there to take
care of you, The importance ofgatherings like this, of places
where you can bring yourfullness to be seen, to be
(20:16):
heard, can be lifesaving. And Ithink we see that work today of
the feeling that you get just bycoming and participating, by
listening, by being in thatenvironment where you can bring
your fullness, where you canbring all of your authenticity
to one place, even if it's forjust a couple minutes.
Jonathan Scott (20:38):
And it goes you know, and you too as
facilitators are also very mucha part of the group too, and I
think that's a very radicalfairy thing that there's no real
leader or somebody telling youthis is the way or these are the
rules, but you you facilitate tomove the circle and allow it,
all these things to happen. But
Timothy Bish (20:59):
That's really that's a really big part of my
teacher's lineage, and which ispartly why I was so excited to
have Eric join as a facilitatorbecause that's exactly right.
There there there isn't meant tobe a hierarchy. But now when
someone's facilitating, they'recreating a structure, and so
that that exists. But, the powerof being able to one day be
(21:20):
leading and then the next weeksit down and be led because it
isn't about any one person. It'sabout us.
Right. And I think that's sopowerful. Like, the circle
doesn't belong to one person. Itbelongs to everyone who wants to
come to it. Yeah.
There's real power in that.
Eric Bomyea (21:35):
Absolutely. I started the circles off. I have
a little message that I sayabout we sit in a circle because
in a circle, we all can be seenand heard equally. If we are
equidistanced from the center,all of us are on a spoke. Right?
That that creates that thatequality, that equilibrium
within the the space.
Timothy Bish (21:55):
Can can I jump in for I I I'm curious because I
remember when I was a young boy,in the eighties, you know,
outside of Pittsburgh, and therethe this image of gay people,
and the way that my family wouldtalk about it, you know, they
had all these different things.And one of the things was about,
like, how flamboyant and, like,over the top. And, of course,
(22:16):
the only picture you would eversee if you were me or you know,
was, like, that one picture fromthe pride parade. You know? But
now as I'm talking to you and Iunderstand more about radical
fairy culture and all this, Iwonder if part of it was,
especially at that time, needinga place where you could be so
unapologetically authenticbecause so many other places you
(22:39):
were either forced or beingasked to suppress either parts
or all of you.
Can you speak to a little bitabout, like, the importance of
that, like, full unapologeticexpression, especially with
regards to healing?
Jonathan Scott (22:52):
Yeah. I mean, you know, when I went to the the
first radical very spiritualgathering, and again, it was
Beltane, so there were a lot ofpeople there, you walk in. It's
a little like opening the gatesto the Land Of Oz. I was
completely unprepared, and therewere probably half a dozen
(23:13):
people at the entrance gate.They were just, you know,
dressed like they had juststepped out of Cirque du Soleil.
I mean, they were wearingwhatever they wanted, and I
could look in the distance andsee people wearing nothing. And
and every single one of them, aswe entered, just said, welcome
home. Oh. And it was really youknow, it was like, okay. And it
(23:36):
was, you know, I think, again,when you you, you strip away all
of the the the roles that all ofthe people inside you, you know,
you shed all of these lives, yougo and, you know, at the at the
fairy sanctuaries, many peopleare create a new name or, you
(23:59):
know, you nobody really caredabout what I did professionally,
but people really cared abouthow I was feeling and how I was
coping.
And, again, every day beginswith a heart circle, and that's
how you got to know people. I acouple years ago, there's sort
of this offshoot of a a workshopthat, radical fairies have been
(24:24):
doing since Harry Hay for fortyyears called sex magic, and it,
for gay men, you know, that'slike, wow. This sounds like fun.
And, so I did a sex magicworkshop in Spain with 15 we
went to the woods for ten dayswith a dozen 15, you know, gay
men from all around the world,Germany, Holland, Sri Lanka,
(24:49):
Israel, United Kingdom. I wasthe only person actually there
from The US, and, every daybegan with with, heart circles.
And, you know, I had all Irealized then I had I was making
all these judgments about peoplein the group or assumptions
about who they were and whatthey felt. I was really and by
(25:12):
day three and, you know, thesesort of this kind of sharing and
talking, I realized I don't knowanything about anybody. And,
Jonathan, what you know, shutup. Just listen. Let other
people be, and, maybe you'llreally learn something.
And so by the end of theworkshop, I I like to say that
(25:35):
there was a lot of magic for me,but there was no sex at all. But
the magic but, you know, when Iheld hands at the very end with
these 15 people, it was, for me,like, the best sex I've ever had
because it was the most intimateI had ever been with a group of
people about being a gay man.And and and all the struggles
(26:00):
we've had in coming out, and,you know, and my story was
repeated in a rhyme form witheverybody in the room. We all we
all feel often very much thesame way, all although, you
know, our our roots gettingthere, you know, comes from
different places.
Eric Bomyea (26:19):
I love that story so much because there is such an
intimacy when we stop trying tofigure out who a person is.
Right. And we get curious abouthow they're doing. And by
sharing stories of our comingout, of our vulnerabilities, of
our vulnerable moments, even inthe present moment of how we are
(26:41):
or how we were in that, wereally get to see people. We
really get to experience them.
And it's moving beyond the whoare you, what do you do, to how
are you.
Jonathan Scott (26:52):
Right. And I find with your group too, I
mean, P Town's a small town, andI live here full time. And I
might not, you know, knoweverybody, but I certainly see
people all the time. And thereare a number of people that have
come in and out of your groupthat I have seen, talked to,
said hi to, or or maybe not. Andhow powerful that's been to just
(27:16):
say, wow.
They are. There's a lot. Youknow? If I open up my heart, you
know, I can really get to knowsomebody, and, it's been really,
really beautiful to get to knowother people in this town in a
very different way, you know,than I don't go to the clubs
anymore, but, you know, it isit's really been a beautiful way
as well as also learning andreminding myself, you know, when
(27:42):
all else fails and all elsefails a lot, the power we have
in our own breath, and we can'tyou know, we have no control of
another person, place, or thing,but we have control of our own
attitudes and our own behaviorand what we say and the words we
use. And I find that your group,helps ground people in creating
(28:07):
that kind of language and thatkind of vocabulary, which is not
natural for most of us on a youknow, we're not living all the
time in a fairy sanctuary orgoing to, you know, groups all
the time like this.
Timothy Bish (28:20):
Well, I'd like to ask you, what I've noticed in
the group over the, what, twonow maybe two and a half years
ish that it's been happening isthat the men who are coming are
are wanting something a littledifferent. And it feels like
there are a lot of people, I'llspeak for myself, but I think a
lot of people have voiced to mesometimes feeling overwhelmed
(28:43):
with the expectation of a queerperson or more specifically
maybe a gay man. Right? And thatthe places we're meant to go,
you know, we we have tea dancesand and dance parties and clubs.
And and can you speak a littlebit about how these circles can
help create a necessary balance?
(29:04):
Because it isn't really aboutgetting rid of anything, but
it's about having theopportunity for many things, it
seems to me. How do you feelabout that?
Jonathan Scott (29:13):
Well, you know, I think you're totally accurate,
and I think, you know, it again,it's it we all want love,
boyfriends, and we all wantfriends, people in our lives,
and, you know, this is a way toreally begin to cut through, I
(29:34):
think, a lot of superficialstuff. You know? It's not a
club. It's not a a dance partyor or or some event, but you're
really mindfully making adecision to, you know, find a
place of of peace and serenityand whatever courage it takes to
(29:57):
come to a group. You know?
I feel like a newcomer withwhatever group I'm in. Even
though I've been to your groupsa number of times, I feel like
every time I come, it's a newday. We're sitting in different
places, and that I, you know, Idon't feel any more confident
(30:19):
than anybody else in the roomwhether somebody's coming for
the first time or has come toevery one of your groups. So I
think there's this real beautyof creating a platform that
we're all equal. And I think forme, that's the difference
between some of the, you know,other ways we interact to try
(30:40):
and get to know people, and, youknow, it's it's not artificial.
I mean, this is the way we havetold stories since the beginning
of time. You know,
Eric Bomyea (30:52):
humans have been gathering in circles for a very
long time. And Right. The thethe main difference what I'm
hearing you say and what I'veexperienced is the
intentionality of the space.Right. You said earlier that
through ritual, we createmagical spaces.
Jonathan Scott (31:07):
Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea (31:08):
And that's what we do. And this is not a slam at
the clubs because they do servea purpose, a time, and a place.
There is very little ritualaround many of those spaces.
There's very little consciousintention behind those spaces.
So being able to be in spacethat was ritualistically,
(31:29):
intentionally set so that themagic of being together can
really blossom to say, hey,we're gathering today.
Jonathan Scott (31:36):
And I've met left many clubs and many events
not feeling really good aboutmyself or feeling kind of more
lonely than when I got there orfeeling just kinda tired. But,
you know, when you choose to goto a group like this, there has
never really been a time where Ihaven't you know, a secret
(31:56):
shared is a secret cut in half,and at least. And I think
Eric Bomyea (32:02):
I love that.
Jonathan Scott (32:04):
I I think that, you know, again, we're we're all
equals. I've had this whole lifeexperience and, you know,
different from other people's,but it it's all you know,
history doesn't repeat itself.It only rhymes, and I think I
really see that in all of us.
Timothy Bish (32:23):
Well, you know, my teachers would say, like, ritual
and ceremony, is importantbecause things are important
when we say so.
Eric Bomyea (32:30):
Right.
Timothy Bish (32:30):
And so when I was doing my Jeeva Mukti yoga
teacher training, I've mentionedthis many times, the 14 points.
And so these 14 things you haveto include in order for it to be
an open class. And when we firstlearned it, some of the people
were like, well, isn't thatgonna be confining? Isn't that
and then what we discovered wasit allowed that structure
allowed for unbelievablecreativity and almost like
(32:51):
infinite possibility. And so Iwanna draw this back now to a
few years ago shortly after theembodiment circle had started, I
ran a conscious connectionworkshop that was it was it was
gonna include nudity, and it waslike, it wasn't marketed
specifically for for only queermen, but it was a men's, you
know, workshop.
(33:12):
But there were some parametersaround it. And one of the
parameters was like, there's notgonna be any sexual activity in
this workshop even though therewill be nudity. And the and the
the response that we got, themen were so one one man said it
restored his faith in humanity.It a lot but so in some moment,
I feel like, oh, you got torelax in some way. You didn't
(33:33):
you didn't have to worry aboutwhether or not you had to, like,
perform in a particular waybecause the structure allowed
you to not do that.
And so then it all became aboutintimacy, which is why I bring
it up because you mentionedearlier the importance of
intimacy. And I think it's soimportant for us to understand
that there are so many kinds ofintimacy, so many valuable
healing things that can beintimate that aren't necessarily
(33:58):
sexual, even though sex canobviously be intimate, and
that's important. So we're notsaying no. Actually, I'm saying
more, please. But but but butbut and can I sit and stare at
you in the eye as a friend?
Can I can I connect with you inall these other ways also, like,
in addition to it? So Right.Like, can can you speak to that
a little bit?
Jonathan Scott (34:15):
Well, I mean, again, it's it's when you create
the container for subjectsubject, and, you know, you just
you you, you know, can you youdevelop you it's a quantum leap
in in in not only yourdevelopment, your openness, but
(34:35):
really your friendship withother people too and how, you
know, I think how you you Theway that you engage. The way
that you engage. Right.
Eric Bomyea (34:47):
When we move from subject to object, if I'm just
looking at you as an object ofwhich something I can get
something from you, whether thatis a favor or sex or money or
job, whatever it might be, and Istart looking at you as a human
being and as a subject, thatengagement automatically shifts.
And when we create these magicalcontainers in which we can bring
(35:11):
people into that manner ofengagement, that's where the
intimacy starts to
Timothy Bish (35:15):
happen. And I would like to bring in a lot of
compassion because and I knowthat I know that it's there,
this idea of, you know, if Ilook at someone as an object,
well, I might be doing thatbecause I've grown up being
modeled that. People have beenlooking at me as an object. And
it really becomes this sort ofreframe of how we think about
the world we live in and thepeople and our connections. So
(35:38):
for the people who might be insubject object manner of
engagement, it may not bebecause they're some diabolical
person stroking their fluffycat.
They'd be like, oh, you may nothave known that there's this is
even possible.
Eric Bomyea (35:51):
Right?
Timothy Bish (35:51):
And so one of the things one of the reasons this
podcast exists and why we do thecircle is to help people, oh,
there are other ways ofengaging. And so just a lot of
compassion there because, youknow, when I think about when I
think about the work I'm doingnow and some of the stuff that's
been in my life now and my, youknow, growing up in Pittsburgh
(36:12):
in the eighties and nineties,like, everything I'm doing now,
my family would have thought wasthe weirdest, craziest stuff. I
needed people to introduce me. Imean, I'm an acupuncturist. And
in Pittsburgh, that would thatwould have sounded like lunacy.
You're gonna put needles in you,and I needed people to that I
trusted. So it was a longprocess. So for people, it's
(36:34):
like, it isn't gonna be a lightswitch where suddenly everything
changes, but come try. Feel givethings a shot. Talk to people.
Hear their experience becausepeople are getting benefit from
it. People are finding ease,finding depth, finding
connection, and how unbelievablyvaluable that is. I mean, I'm
thinking about I remembermeeting you at the brewery.
(36:57):
Right. Right.
And I don't know. That was,what, a year and a half ago
maybe? And how much I value thedepth that we've been able to
create over that period of time,you know, much in the last few
months, but that is reallyvaluable to me. Lots of people
can have that if they know thatthere's permission and that
there's there are places andways.
Jonathan Scott (37:19):
And yes. And especially in circle work, it's
very active to just be alistener, and that's also very
hard for me because, oh, I'vegot so many stories, and, oh, I
can tell you all the all the
Eric Bomyea (37:33):
things really fun stories. Shoulda,
Jonathan Scott (37:35):
woulda, coulda, you shoulda done with your life
and how to make things betterand just to shut up and just to
listen. There's a there's a 12step acronym called wait. Why am
I talking? Or waste. Why am Istill talking?
And so for me, it's it's really,I mean, I can get on the phone
(38:00):
and just blab to anybody aboutwhat's going on, but for me to
just really, really actively bea witness to to other people's
journey, whatever way, shape, orform they take it, and it's it's
very, very powerful.
Eric Bomyea (38:18):
And It's not just the facilitators who are
actively engaged in creating thespace. It's all the
participants. If everyone joinsin with that same mindset, the
power of that container isincredible. It is so potent when
everyone comes in with that oflike, Oh, let me participate by
listening. Let me participate bywitnessing.
(38:41):
Right.
Timothy Bish (38:43):
And listening and witnessing from so many levels.
So in the embodiment work,having like, listening with our
full body. How how does it feelto stand in front of this
person? Like, what am I feelingin my body? What am I sensing?
Not just necessarily theirwords, although there's
opportunity for that too. Andthis brings me back to this
image of the radical fairies andI think some of, like, the work
(39:05):
that they're doing and theimportance because we can listen
to a person's expression when weallow them the opportunity to
dress and express the way theywant to and and and how powerful
that can be. And I'm thinkingI've never been to a radical
fairy gathering yet, although Idid get my first invite, and so
I'm excited. I'm excited. Butprior to that, like, here in
(39:26):
Provincetown, I have hadpowerful experiences during
carnival when I've been reallyinvolved in creating whatever
the thing is I wanna create.
And I realized later, oh, it'sbecause I was able to bring an
expression that mattered to me,and then I felt seen in that
(39:47):
expression. There was powerthere. And so it sounds like the
radical fairies are creatingthat opportunity. Am I hearing
you right about that?
Jonathan Scott (39:54):
Oh, And you go to a gathering and, you know,
you go to a lot of workshops inyour life and and, you know, or
conferences, and every hour,there's a different speaker or a
different group that you can goto. Well, there's a lot that
goes on at the spiritualgatherings of radical fairies,
but there's nobody really incharge. So if people wanna do a
(40:16):
group, they just write it on aboard, and there'll be a yoga
group or there'll be a groupfor, you know, people dealing
you know, gay gay men who'swho've survived cancer or or or
just heart circles. You know?The the when you finish a sex
magic workshop, and it's reallythe most beautiful, beautiful
(40:41):
gay term, and I I love it.
But when you finish it, youbecome and it's a phrase that
Harry Hay coined. You becomepart of a circle of loving
companions. And you are alsocreating your own circle of
loving companions. It's not thesame intensity and all of that
other work that goes in, but itdoesn't matter because it it it
(41:07):
launches people to discover allthe other things they wanna
wanna do and can do. And there'syou know?
Timothy Bish (41:13):
My teacher would delight in hearing you say that
because I I believe it's true. Ibelieve all the all the circles
that I've been a part of, theones that I've created and the
ones that I've participated in,have been that, and how
beautiful that is.
Jonathan Scott (41:24):
Right. Thank you for that. Circles of loving
companions. And it's a really,to me, a really beautiful way of
just describing gayrelationships, and what Harry
Hay said was we should not modelour relationships after
heterosexuals. We should createour own language and just keep
them ethical.
Timothy Bish (41:41):
So this is why this is why I'm so glad you
brought that up because, I havebeen honored by my teacher to
run my first MWI program in inthe embodied masculine method,
and I'm gonna do it for forqueer men. And some people have
asked about why. And and I and Ido believe that there are
(42:01):
aspects of our experience thatare different. And not that they
can't be shared or, like,understood, but there is power
in the in the possibility ofrelating in a way that is more
truly authentic. And I feel likethat's what I'm hearing.
So it it isn't necessarily aboutseparate, but it's about a
foundation and possibility forour fullest authenticity.
Jonathan Scott (42:22):
And also a beautiful word because I was a
philosophy major in in myundergraduate work, and, really,
it every philosopher is reallyabout how how to become the most
authentic person you can be, andI think, you know, that is the
(42:45):
journey. That is really thejourney, and you you know, I'm
just really grateful to live ina town that isn't just a resort
town, but, you know, it has thisreal depth to it too. And it can
be superficial, but but I thinkthere are plenty of ways that we
can create, and you havecreated, and others are creating
(43:07):
these really, really beautifulritual spaces for people to come
together. And, you know, we wentto this beautiful moonlight
Beltane on the beach bonfirelast night, and probably, you
know, 30 people were there, andpeople dressed however they
wanted to dress and put on hatsor whatever they want, and it
(43:29):
was, you know, really, reallymagical. And we created a magic
space and a sort of fire bonfirefacilitator, you know, led us in
a way of really just thinkingabout where we were and why
we're together.
And even you know, it can bedone in really beautiful ways as
well, and and we live in anenvironment that, you know,
(43:54):
everything is moving here. Thewind moves. The leaves move. The
birds move. People are up anddown the street on bicycles.
The land is literally moving.The land is always moving, and
it's so stimulating, and it's soexciting. People often ask me,
you know, oh, aren't you, like,how can you live there off
season? I'm like, this is baby.You know?
I am never bored, and I'm neverlonely, though I'm often alone,
(44:18):
and, you know, I'm I I'm oftendoing the same kind of things I
do every day, walk my dog and goswimming and ride my bike and
call people. And but I I findthat, just to be a part of this
land is is really special. Thefairy sanctuaries are very
special land places too. Theyhave been been created through
(44:42):
blood, sweat, and tears, and,you know, I I don't even know
how how you can do that, how howhow we've been able to do that.
But
Timothy Bish (44:52):
I wanna have a little bit of a appreciation.
Last night at this Beltanebonfire, which was really
beautiful, I was reminded of thevariety of people that exist in
our community here inProvincetown and some of their
traditions. So Tangle calls inthe four directions differently
than I do and my teacher does,but it was powerful and magical
(45:13):
and so how wonderful that was.But also the creation of a
lineage. And we started thisconversation by talking about
the HIVAIDS epidemic, and wethink about all of the people
that we lost, all of the peoplethat would now be in the place
(45:34):
of wisdom keeper, storyteller,mentor, all of that.
And so we are in a moment nowwhere we could start to rebuild
and recreate that. And it is ofsuch importance, so valuable. I
feel very fortunate that I hadsome men in my life, some older
men who really taught me thingsthat I needed to know without
(45:56):
whom I would not have not havecome to understand it. And as we
build the circle, as we buildthis community, as we build the
podcast, that the intention isto have this as a resource
because because we need it. Andwe need to recognize some of the
things that we have today, likeprep, for example, came because
(46:16):
of so much hard work andsacrifice and loss and death.
And we need to honor that in thesame way that we honored the
first people in the Beltanebonfire. And and then we need to
build that and and and value it,cherish it, and bring it. So
thank you so much for comingwith your stories because this
(46:36):
is part of that process as faras I can see. And that's how it
feels to me.
Jonathan Scott (46:40):
Well, thank you, Tim. I mean, you know, there was
a beautiful poet, Paul Minette,who who died of AIDS, and he
once said that that losing allthe lovers and friends and
people to AIDS was like tossinghandfuls of diamonds into the
(47:01):
wild surf. And I feel like whatyou all are doing is sort of
finding those diamonds again. I,you know, I mean, I am very
aware that I am now twice as oldas so many people I loved, and
(47:22):
how I've gotten to travel aroundthe world and did my
professional thing, and evenadopted a kid, and how I've, you
know, had these beautifulbonfires and made friends and
had lovers and made mistakes andreally gotten to live, and how
gypped all these people were onthat, except what they left
(47:47):
behind is, you know, everythingin my heart. It's indelible as a
fingerprint, and I think, youknow, what you're doing is
exactly, you know, what theywould want.
Really. It's really, you knowtheir death is not in vain
because of the work that, youknow, you continue to do and to
(48:11):
bring people together, and, youknow, we don't have to wait for
a COVID crisis or AIDS crisisto, you know, be in a circle and
hold hands or or or learn how torelax and breathe. And I think,
you know, this is our watch. Youknow? We deal with planet Earth
experiences, whatever happens onour watch, and I had some pretty
(48:34):
crappy things just unbelievably,you know, tumultuous and and
heartbreaking.
And and and, you know, I builtvictory programs from that, and,
and it's, you know, still goingtoday, and thousands of people
go through it. And, you know, Iyou know, it's their journey. I
(48:54):
just I just did the bricks andmortar, but people come. If you
build it, they will come, andwhat you're doing is building
it. And people are comingbecause there's hunger, or I
really believe a hunger for thekind of intimacy, the kind of
caring, and the kind of ways ofjust learning how to cope and
not having to do it alone.
Timothy Bish (49:15):
Well, it's the mission it's my mission and I
think our shared mission and themission of this podcast to
continue to sharpen what webring to to be able to expand it
so that as many people that wantit and can benefit from it have
it available to them. And sothere's this very particular way
because you've been teaching usso beautifully today. A very
(49:36):
particular way in the yogatradition that I am been taught
to honor teachers, and that isthank you for teaching me.
Please stay in my life. So letit be on the record now.
If you are open to continuing tohelp us understand and share
this with the world, it would bea huge honor.
Jonathan Scott (49:56):
And we'll have a lot of fun doing it because if
you don't have a sense of humor,you know, you gotta do all this
with a little sense of humor.That's absolutely right. That's
absolutely right. Oh.
Eric Bomyea (50:06):
This is a beautiful episode of conversation
experience today. Be able to sitand hear these tales, to be able
to explore this topic, to take amoment from Tango last night,
(50:29):
bloom, baby bloom. Yeah. Bringyour
Timothy Bish (50:31):
baby bloom, baby bloom.
Eric Bomyea (50:32):
Like truly sitting here and witnessing authenticity
and being in a circle of men, ofloving companions. That's what
we are today and that's whatwe'll continue to be. And we're
gonna keep finding thosediamonds. Yeah. And we're gonna
(50:54):
keep polishing them up so thatthey can shine bright for years
and generations to come.
Yeah. We like things thatsparkle.
Jonathan Scott (51:02):
Hell yes. We do. We're all little magpies at
heart.
Eric Bomyea (51:08):
Thank you. I'm feeling very complete. How are
you, Tim?
Jonathan Scott (51:10):
Thank you. I feel complete. And Jonathan?
Well, I feel complete.
Timothy Bish (51:14):
Thank you.
Eric Bomyea (51:16):
Tim, will you take us out, please?
Jonathan Scott (51:18):
I will. So let's close
Timothy Bish (51:19):
our eyes and take an inhale through the nose and a
soft exhale through the mouth.And it is with the deepest
appreciation and gratitude forany insights, awarenesses,
understandings that we may havegained in today's sacred circle
that we now release thearchetypes and the spirits. And
(51:41):
it is with these words that ourcontainer is open but not
broken.
Eric Bomyea (51:44):
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Oh.
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