July 3, 2025 • 56 mins
In this episode of The Circle, Eric and Tim explore how personal growth and spiritual practice can quietly slip into another form of hustle. Why do we sometimes treat healing like a to-do list? What happens when our breathwork, yoga, or journaling stops being supportive and starts becoming performative?
Together, they unpack perfectionism, self-trust, and the radical permission to just be. From Tim’s morning breathwork dilemma to Eric’s meditation hall ego trip, this episode is a heartfelt, humorous, and deeply honest look at what it means to grow without losing yourself in the process.
Topics include:
- The trap of trying to “win” at healing
- How spiritual practices can become performance
- The importance of intention vs. outcome
- The power of check-ins and body-based awareness
- Why doing less might be exactly what you need
Whether you’re burned out from personal development or just curious about being more present, this conversation is an invitation to soften, slow down, and stop striving.
00:00 - Intro: The Hustle of Healing
02:03 - Why We Strive Even in Spiritual Spaces
06:20 - Eric’s “Best Meditator” Moment
09:45 - The Yoga Trap: Performing vs. Practicing
13:10 - External Validation in Embodiment Work
18:25 - The Slippery Slope of “Not Doing Enough”
22:42 - Spiritual Checklists: Help or Harm?
28:00 - Choosing What’s Right for *Today*
32:48 - The Fine Line Between Fixing and Growing
36:10 - Doing to Be: Yoga's Eight Limbs
42:12 - Intention, Not Just Action
46:40 - Is This Practice Serving Me?
50:55 - The Gift of Showing Up (Even When You Don’t Want To)
57:12 - Internal Validation: Can It Be Enough?
01:02:40 - From Broken to Better: Shifting Motivation
01:07:30 - Men’s Work & the Power of Just Being
01:11:58 - Check-Ins: A Simple, Radical Practice
01:20:00 - Feeling Without Explaining
01:25:30 - App Behavior, Loneliness & Conscious Choice
01:31:15 - Being with Discomfort Without Numbing
01:37:20 - Embodiment Is Not Measured in Metrics
01:41:00 - Closing Reflections: Let Being Guide Your Doing
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric Bomyea (00:06):
Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go
all in on men's work, embodimentpractices, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. Ifyou're enjoying the show, please
be sure to share your favoriteepisode, leave a review, and
subscribe. And if you have aquestion about anything you've
heard us talk about, please sendus a message. We'd love to hear
from you. And now onto the show.
Many of us come into embodimentwork and personal growth looking
to feel more whole, moregrounded, more present, more
(00:29):
connected. But somewhere alongthe way, some old patterns might
sneak in. The striving, thefixing, the belief that if we
just do enough breath work,enough shadow work, enough
healing, we'll finally be okay.We turn our spiritual practice
into another hustle. Healingbecomes another form of
productivity.
And without realizing it, webring the same mindset that
burned us out right into thevery place we're trying to find
(00:50):
peace. But what if that need tokeep going is the very thing
that keeps us from feelingenough? Today, we're talking
about the radical act ofstopping, of letting go, of just
being. Because maybe, justmaybe, that's where the real
transformation begins. Tim, areyou ready to go all in?
Timothy Bish (01:06):
I'm ready. Let's do this.
Eric Bomyea (01:08):
So there was a stretch of time where I was
doing all the things, all thehealing things. I was in
therapy, I was doing breathworks, I was in men's group,
intensive programs. But itseemed like no matter how much I
did, I still felt like I wasfalling short. Like there was
some sort of better or morehealed version of me that I
hadn't reached yet, and I wassomehow failing or not getting
there fast enough. So Tim, I'mcurious, have you experienced
(01:31):
that too?
And if so, what do you thinkdrives that constant need to
improve even in the healingspace?
Timothy Bish (01:38):
I have absolutely experienced that, and I think
everybody that I know where I'vehad this conversation has also
experienced it. So I feel likeone thing that happens
frequently is something happensin your life that is
challenging, upsetting,uncomfortable, potentially sad,
(02:01):
or requires grief, and you arelooking for something. So I had
yoga teachers who would oftensay, you know, people will come
to yoga because this thing hashappened, and they're looking
for something. I don't thinkthere's anything wrong with
recognizing that you're in deeppain, and you're looking for
(02:25):
ways to maybe not feel thatpain. Similar to you, I've been
especially, you know, recently,I just got divorced.
I had to go through that lifetransition, and I was doubled
down. I'm journaling. I'm doingbreath work. I'm meditating. I'm
in groups and, you know, leadinggroups and going to groups, and
I'm going to retreats.
And, you know, I I wanted tofind some solutions and to
(02:48):
create to create the causes forwhat I wanted next. And so I
don't think I don't think mostpeople come purely in, I'm gonna
be as excellent at spiritualityas I am at other things. It it
hasn't occurred to me quite likethat from most of the people
that I've been, talking to. Butwhat what I think does happen is
(03:13):
you come looking for something,and then you get little glimpses
of it. So you take a yoga class,and you feel better when you're
done.
Sometimes you'll you'll have,oh, in fifteen minutes of that
class, I forgot about my breakupor I forgot about the, you know,
the thing, and there's somerelief. And so you you keep
coming back. You keep comingback. But I think at some point,
(03:35):
you have to be mindful then ofwhat what that is and and what
what is really healing.
Eric Bomyea (03:45):
What I'm hearing there is that many of us will
come to a spiritual practice orspiritual space as a remedy.
We've got a current pain orproblem that we're trying to
solve that has led us to seekingthis out as a solution. So
seeking it out as a remedy forthe malady that we're
experiencing. And then very fewof us, I would say, are going in
(04:11):
and saying like, Oh, I'm goingto go into this thing to be the
best. So those are the twothings that I was hearing you
say.
One is that we're going in withthe intention of helping
ourselves. And we're not goingin with the intention of like,
Oh, I'm doing this thing to helpmyself and I'm going to be the
best. But potentially whathappens over time, and I'll tell
an experience that I had on myfirst silent meditation retreat.
I went in with beginner's mind.I had really very little
(04:35):
experience with meditation.
And I was like, oh, I'm justgonna do this five day silent
practice, and I'm gonna see howit goes. It was very quick,
probably within the first day ortwo that I was like, oh, I'm
gonna be the best meditator. Iwas like, I was looking around.
I was judging people. I waslike, I see you over there
shifting.
I see you over there fidgeting.I was like, I'm gonna be better
(04:56):
than that. I'm gonna sit hereall stoic and like, I'm not
gonna move and I'm gonna be thebest meditator in this room. And
I had to catch myself. Was like,woah, woah, woah.
Like, where did that come from?Like, is this serving me right
now to be the best meditator?
Timothy Bish (05:11):
Well, what or what does that even mean? Right. And
I think that's the thing. We wecan get wrapped up then, and and
I think this is one of theseductive dangers of yoga asana
is that, you know, you do theyoga asana practice, and it can
have it can transform your bodyin ways that people tend to
really like, and it can beacrobatic and at times very
(05:36):
impressive looking. So people goinitially looking for for
something deeper often, and andthen you can get wrapped up in,
well, not only did I feel betterfor x amount of time because of
that practice, now I realize,oh, I was the deepest in my
split.
And then if that starts tomatter, then you can start to
(05:58):
focus on, like, all theincredible things you can do,
and and it can distract fromwhat's really happening, which
is, well, what is it about thispractice that helps you feel
more grounded, more present,less burdened by whatever you're
burdened by, gives you greaterclarity? You know, the split
doesn't matter.
Eric Bomyea (06:16):
Yeah. The irony is that the benefit for me in these
spaces and in these practices isthe going in and being with
myself and tending inward. Andthen what ends up happening in
examples like that where I mightbe trying to do the poses the
most and being the impressiveperson in the split is I'm going
(06:36):
external. I'm now out into theworld again, and I'm seeking
outside validation rather thanworking within. And so I think
that's just really a fascinatingswitch that sometimes happen.
Where's the line between I'mworking on my practice and I'm
deepening into my practice andperformance?
Timothy Bish (06:58):
Right. I think it's caring about someone else's
opinion of your process. Right?So, you know, and I learned this
this is why they you know, indance and in yoga, they often
say, you know, an injury canteach you so much. And that's a
tough lesson to learn becauseinjuries are tricky, and they
(07:18):
don't feel good.
But but having danced andpracticed yoga with and through
injuries at times, it really istrue because then there were
many moments when, oh, the thingI have to do now to honor where
I'm at is wildly different thanthe thing that I could do and
that will likely be able to dolater that is more impressive.
(07:42):
And I have to I have to bewilling to be here now and know
that I cannot tell you know, Iwas practicing in New York City.
I can't walk around and tell the35 other people in class, hey,
by the way, I'm working withthis injury. So when we did
forearm stand and I didn't do itand I was in a different pose,
like, but I just need you toknow that I could do you know
what I mean? Mhmm.
And so so in that moment, youhave to you have to practice
(08:05):
being being like, well, I haveto focus on what I'm doing. I
and I can't and then I but sohere's the thing, because I do
it all the time. I mean, I haveI have an embarrassing amount of
looking outward, you know, forany number of reasons, and I
work on it. So I don't thinkit's necessarily always about
just stopping that. Because ifsomeone knows how to do that and
(08:28):
you're listening to thispodcast, please send us an email
and tell me how.
But I think instead, it'srecognizing, oh, I I I wanted
that person to know that I coulddo a split. I wanted them to see
me in that impressive forearmstand.
Eric Bomyea (08:42):
Like me in the meditation hall being like, I'm
gonna let you know subliminally,I'm going to trans I'm going to,
like, send this to you that,like, I'm not going to fidget. I
see you fidgeting. I'm not goingto fidget.
Timothy Bish (08:52):
Yeah. Like I mean, yes. And so then you just
recognize, oh, there's thatthing making it about what they
think. And it also happens soI'll tell you a story from
today, this morning, where I gotup and, I have the dog, so my
morning routine is a little bitdifferent, and I and I felt like
I had a little bit less time.And so, normally, I get up and I
(09:13):
do my journaling, which takes meabout thirty minutes, and then I
do this breath practice.
And for the last few months,I've been doing four rounds of
Wim Hof. It's taking me justunder fifteen minutes. And
today, I was like, if I do thatvideo, that YouTube video, I'm
gonna be cutting it prettyclose. Then I'll have to rush my
walk with the dog, I didn'twanna do that. And so I'm like,
(09:35):
well, I could go back to thethree round, you know, YouTube
video that I started with.
You know? And I had thisinternal conflict about, well,
is that less? Is that you know?And then I've I've had that same
thought. Like, this can be ittoday, and it doesn't have to be
compared to yesterday ortomorrow.
And what what would that feellike? And so I I settled, but it
(09:59):
was it was a practice ofawareness. I'm aware that I'm
competing with a previousversion of myself and an
idealized version of myselfbecause I have this need to be
exceptional because I'mterrified no one's gonna love
me. All of this to say there wasa part of me that was more
willing to not do the breathpractice than to do a reduced
version because then I wouldhave felt like I wasn't doing it
(10:20):
enough. And then I was like,Tim, this is your practice.
Just do the three rounds.
Eric Bomyea (10:25):
Commendable to see it, to have that internal
dialogue with yourself. I veryrarely see it. I'm like, for me
myself, if I'm in that position,I'm I'm either like, I'm gonna
do it or burn it all down.Right? Like, forget I'm just not
even gonna do it.
If I can't do it to what is onmy task list, what's on my to do
list Yeah. And this is somethingI wanna chat about is that,
(10:47):
like, sometimes for me, I lookat my spiritual practices almost
as a to do, and I think there'sanother fine line between
holding yourself accountable topersonal growth spiritual
practices and checking somethingoff of a list.
Timothy Bish (11:03):
Right. And I think I think it exists on a spectrum.
Right? So I believe my ownpersonal experience has been
that there have been times whenchecking things off the list was
really helpful, especially inthe beginning. And that list
making me do things that thatwithout it, I might have I don't
(11:24):
really you know?
There was a lot to learn, but Ithink in our evolution as
people, whether we're talkingabout spirituality or just
personal growth, as we start todeepen into things, we might
then rely on them less. So, youknow, I'll I'll go to swimming.
I was a swimmer when I was inhigh school, and we had lots of
(11:44):
different tools that we woulduse for different drills. We had
kickboards. We had hand paddles.
We had pull buoys and all allkinds of things that we would
use. And your relationship withthose things changes. And I feel
like we have to allow that inour spiritual growth. But for
me, I'm hearing from you and Ithink a lot of people, well, it
(12:05):
was because it can also add up.It's supposed to be an hour of
yoga asana, thirty minutes ofmeditation.
I should probably do thirtyminutes of breath work. I do
(12:28):
believe that there should besome structure, and that
structure for me is I would likethere to be some practice for me
every day. And then that canthere can be some flow in so
typically, do four rounds of WimHof. Today, I did three. That
does not make me a failure at myspiritual practice, but that's a
practice because there's a partof me that wanted to say that.
Eric Bomyea (12:47):
Yeah. So what I'm hearing is it's almost like the
task list can be the trainingwheels that can help us get into
habit and routine and ritual. Ifwe're bringing in a devotional
sense to them, it can be aritualistic thing. And then over
time, we can start to remove ornot have as much rigid structure
because it becomes more of anembodied process. We're able to
(13:09):
feel into, how am I today orwhere am I at today?
And can I say I can still do apractice and it's going to be
three rounds of breath ratherthan four rounds and still
commit to that? Because me, in apast life, I would have burned
it all down. If I can't do thefour, I won't do it all.
Timothy Bish (13:29):
Yeah. Well, that that's one extreme, and I can
really relate to that. I thinkwe have that in common. I I
think, though, the structure isimportant because the other
extreme is the people lettingthemselves off the hook so
easily. And wanting to bring alot of love and compassion to
that, it isn't a blame or a bad,but you might be missing some
(13:50):
gold if you you don't pushthrough the some of the moments
that you didn't wanna be at.
So anything worth doing, andI've talked about this with
regards to my dance career, youhave to be willing to go to
class when you don't want to.All the people who made it. And
and it's dance class or it'syour voice lessons or it's
(14:11):
whatever the thing is. Sometimesyou're gonna go and you don't
wanna go. And I think that's abig difference.
The willingness to go when youdon't wanna go and then then the
experience of what it feelslike. Sometimes you go when you
don't wanna go, and then it'sthe worst. But sometimes you're
like, I didn't wanna do this,but that was killer. I'm so glad
(14:33):
I did it. So glad I did it.
I think I, have I told the thestory about Sleep No More on
this podcast?
Eric Bomyea (14:40):
Not that I recall.
Timothy Bish (14:40):
Okay. Sleep No More is this interactive theater
experience in New York Cityabout Macbeth. Mhmm. Have I not
told this? Okay.
And my my first husband, wantedto see the show, and so I got
him tickets for the for the showfor his birthday. And
Eric Bomyea (15:01):
I
Timothy Bish (15:01):
did not wanna go. I was like, this sounds
miserable. I don't wanna do it.But it's his birthday, I agreed
to do it, and we go and do it.Anyway, the short version of the
story, you get separated andeveryone's wearing masks.
So you're in this big, like,five story, like, warehouse
where you can just meander andall kinds of things are
happening, and it's really welldone. So you're not really with
your person or your people.You're kinda separated the whole
(15:22):
time. Anyway, I proceed to havethe most incredible experience.
I got called out, singled out bylead actors in the show on two
separate occasions.
Actually, the witch at one pointpulled me aside and gave me the
a kiss. I was the only personin, like, the 400 people in this
experience that had lip marks onmy mask. At the end, I was like,
Eric Bomyea (15:43):
that
Timothy Bish (15:43):
was amazing. And I asked I asked, you know, my
first husband how was hisexperience. And, you know, he
went with the expectation ofwanting the experience that I
ultimately ended up having. Sohe was a little disappointed.
And I was like, oh, that was sogreat.
And if two hours prior, I wouldhave been like, I don't wanna
go. Mhmm. And now I I like Itell that story frequently. It
(16:06):
so there is value I think inshowing up sometimes when you
don't want to. It isn't alwaysgonna be what I just described,
but what you learn as anathlete, what you learn as a
whatever endeavor you're doingcould be gold in that moment.
So I think there's that. Andthen as you start to get more
and more steeped, then you haveto start to soften around those
(16:28):
and really make your choicesbased more on what your purpose
is and less on what you'resupposed tos are. And the
intention too. Right? I do thinkit's important to show up,
really do believe in this mantrathat showing up is the hardest
Eric Bomyea (16:44):
part. And I think though showing up with the
intention of, Oh, I'm going tothis class or I'm going to this
show because it is out ofservice and love and devotion,
either to somebody else or tomyself. And that can result in a
personal growth experience orsomething magical can happen out
(17:05):
of that with the rightintention. But if I'm going with
the intention of I want to gobecause I'm trying to fix
something or I'm trying to provesomething, trying to get
external validation from it,then I feel like we start to
maybe dip into a differentterritory with that.
Timothy Bish (17:24):
Right. And I think we need to shed light. So one of
the reasons why I am prone todoing that is because I would
only get validation, especiallyat a young age, when I would do
exceptional things. So I wastrained to be constantly
striving for exceptional to beexceptional in ways, and that
(17:46):
often meant, you know, bewilling to go the extra mile and
checking things off the list. Sowhen we start to look at that
and recognize, is that servingme or not?
We have to look at it with a lotof compassion. And so it isn't,
in my in my opinion and in mypersonal experience, it isn't
about removing it. I don't thinkI don't think I'm ever gonna
(18:08):
fully remove it unless I get,you know, enlightened. I think
it will be about recognizing itand then consciously choosing
with that recognition. Oh, partof me wants to do this because
it's an old pattern ofachievement and validation
seeking.
Is that serving me right now?And, you know, in the, the
(18:31):
example I gave earlier with mypractice this morning, I am very
glad that I did three breathsthree rounds of breath rather
than none. So I actually thinkit's served. And if I have time
tomorrow, I'll probably do four.Because four feels good.
Mhmm. Feels like a stretch, andI feel like that's part of it.
I'm like, I'm trying to stretch.
Eric Bomyea (18:52):
Right. And so what I what I hear there is that
there is a true genuine desirefor personal growth rather than
this need to perform. Or thenext concept that I want to
introduce is the desire to fixourselves because we feel
broken, Like, oh, I have to dothis thing in order to be the
(19:13):
most healed. I have to do thisthing in order to be the most
present. And so can you talk tome about your journey of getting
to that point of being able tohave that genuine desire for
growth?
Timothy Bish (19:28):
Oh, I'm gonna ask you to ask that question again
in a second. The thing I wannabring up because it's what just
inspired is, you know, the eightlimbs of yoga. For for the
Ishtanga yoga or the Raja yogapath, the eight limbs, yama,
niyama, asana, pranayama,pratyahara, dharana, dhyana, and
samadhi. Right? So the ethicalconsiderations and observances,
(19:52):
the postures, the breath, sensewithdrawal, the first the first
six are things that we can do.
And and then in the doing ofthose things, we start to create
the foundation for thepossibility of the next two that
we can't do in the same way thatwe think of as doing. Now if you
(20:19):
speak to an enlightened being,they probably will have a better
explanation of that. But, thatmeditative absorption and then
the state of samadhi bliss orecstasy, these are things that
that we have to do things tocreate the causes for, but we
can't do them. So it's thisblend of there is some doing in
(20:42):
our path, but I think that doingallows us to then be. And so we
have to or I invite us all toconsider, can we allow being to
be a component while we aredoing?
Eric Bomyea (20:58):
So if I'm understanding, like, the concept
is here that I cannot do bliss.I can be bliss, and in order to
be bliss, there are things thatI can do to get to that state.
Yeah. Right. Correct?
Timothy Bish (21:15):
Okay. Yeah. There right. There exactly. There are
there are things that I can doto prepare myself.
You know? So Amir talks aboutthis, like, cleansing the temple
body, cleansing our physical andsubtle body, basically preparing
ourselves to the best of ourability to be ready for the
depth of experience that we'rethat we're hoping to have. But
(21:36):
we can't we can't just do thatdepth of experience. Like, we
create the causes and thefoundation for it, and then we
have to be and and then meetthat moment when it when it
comes. So, yeah, that's that'swhy to me, it's a really because
I don't it isn't about notdoing.
To me, especially where I'm atnow going through my divorce,
(21:58):
and there are moments when I'mlike, I want to feel
differently. And so what I wantyou to do is to give me the
recipe, and I can just I'll dothat recipe, and then I'll feel
better. And the lesson that I'vebeen learning is that isn't how
this is gonna work. You're gonnahave to be with some of these
feelings and these experiences,and you're gonna have to be
(22:19):
waiting, be in the waiting forthe answers that you're in the
clarity you're looking for.
Eric Bomyea (22:25):
What I'm hearing too, this goes back to the
intention behind something. Whyam I doing it? Am I doing it
because I'm like, oh, thecurrent situation I'm in right
now needs to be fixed, changedradically different. And I'm
just not okay with either whatI'm in or who I am in this
present moment. And so I'mtrying to fix myself.
(22:48):
And so there may be a narrativeof I am not enough going on. And
so now I have to do, do, do. Ihave to do the four rounds of
breath. I have to do the thirtyminutes of journaling. I have to
do the two hours of yoga everyday, right?
Because I have to do thesethings in order to become that
thing that I'm trying to become.And I think, again, there's just
(23:12):
such a fine line here betweenthere's aspirational striving
of, I do want to become a betterperson, a more healed person, a
deeper connected person. But howdoes that, like, how can that
sometimes dip into the, like, Iam not enough currently, and I'm
trying to fix myself?
Timothy Bish (23:31):
Well, I I mean, that's important. I think that
it's okay if you are reallyuncomfortable and you wanna
change something. I think that'stotally okay. And I think it's
okay if aspects of yourspiritual practice do make a
change even if it's temporary. Ido some breath work and some
(23:51):
meditation, and I feel betterfor a period of time.
I'm less burdened by the thingthat's happening. Great. But we
have to be mindful if that's allwe're doing. I'm uncomfortable.
I want to change, and now I'mgonna run to this practice to
get it to change.
And I think what I'm learningand discovering now is that I
have to be willing to sit with,oh, I'm feeling I'm feeling
(24:16):
scared and uncertain. That'sthat's what I'm feeling. That's
the experience that I'm having.And and what I've been doing in
my own personal practice, Irecognize, okay. I'm feeling
scared and uncertain.
Here's the experience that thatexists in my physical body. So
right now, fear and uncertainty,although I'm not feeling it in
this moment, but this morning,I'm like, it felt like a
tightness in my midline. I Ikind of identify, well, this is
(24:37):
what I'm feeling. This is myexperience. And then I say,
okay.
I have to just be comfortablebeing that person who's having
that experience. And then when Isat down to do my breath, even
though the breath does make mefeel better, I couldn't do it
(24:59):
just so that it would make mefeel better. And then I think
there are moments when you can.You know what's gonna make me
feel better if I do a little bitof breath? Okay.
No problem. But but it can't bethe everyday. Like, the reason I
did the breath was because I hadmade commitments to myself that
that were bigger than this onemoment of uncertainty that I'm
describing. And so I went to thebreath, and it did make me feel
(25:19):
better. But I had to be willingto sit with, well, this is
actually my experience, and Ican't try to run from it by
hiding it with a thing.
You know, it's not differentthan drugs and alcohol. Mhmm.
Right? So we can numb ourselvesin all kinds of ways. We can do
it with exercise.
We you know, we and so we haveto be mindful of, well, when am
(25:42):
I when am I using somethingconsciously? When am I using it
reflexively or reactively? Andwhen am I when am I running
towards something, and when am Irunning away from something?
Eric Bomyea (25:56):
I think that those recognitions and that that
tuning into what's going on, theintention behind something, the
motivation behind something, Ithink is the really critical
component here. And I like torefer to many of these things as
(26:16):
tools. They are tools in thetoolkit to pull forward, to pull
out at certain times because Iknow that there is an effect
that it has on me. But it's notnecessarily that I'm gonna do
this breathwork practice becauseI know the feeling that this
(26:36):
breathwork practice. It's morethat like, oh, I'm gonna commit
to something for myself.
And then in the doing of thatand in the accomplishment of
that, I'm in a cycle of personalgrowth. Going back to that going
to the class when it feels a
Timothy Bish (26:55):
little
Eric Bomyea (26:55):
uncomfortable, right, when it's the desire may
not truly be there. But therecognition that, like, I know
that, like, if I'm trulycommitted to myself, that this
is going to benefit me. It maynot be the actual tangible, this
breath work practice made myhead go tingly, but it's the
(27:16):
accomplishment afterwards oflike, I did this, I pushed
myself, and now I'm like, whatwas the quote that you said
recently about like, like, selfconfidence and upholding the
commitments that we make toourselves?
Timothy Bish (27:29):
Oh, it was Carolyn Mays who, in her lecture series
about building self esteem andthe way that we build self
esteem by upholding thecommitments we make to
ourselves. And that that has hada huge impact in my life because
there's truth to it. If I don'thonor the commitments that I
(27:50):
make to me, well, then why wouldI like, how could I reasonably
expect anyone else to honorthem? And what happens when I
start chipping away at my ownself trust? Oh, I really I can't
trust myself to do any of thethings I say I'm gonna do, and
then I don't ever do anything.
Eric Bomyea (28:07):
That's why I referenced that is like in those
moments of like, why am I doingsomething? Again, it's not about
how physically I'm going to feelafter the yoga practice or the
breath work or whatever it mightbe. It's the, oh, I'm setting
myself a thing that I want toaccomplish and I'm upholding
(28:31):
myself to that. Yeah. And I'mbuilding that self esteem so
that over time, maybe I have toseek less externally because I'm
doing this for myself, bymyself.
Yeah. I mean,
Timothy Bish (28:46):
I think I think a lot of these practices are
geared at giving us an aninternal experience so that we
can start to understand what ourinternal experience is and start
to trust it. Because I can'tmake you validate me, but I can
I can start to look inward andvalidate myself? You know, this
(29:09):
is a practice I've been doing atnight now just recently, and
it's I wanted to become moremore regular. But recognizing,
oh, Tim, you did you did a greatjob doing this sort of
recognizing and validatingmyself because I just was never
in a I was never in a headspacebefore to do that. Never thought
(29:30):
of it.
It was like, oh, it matters ifmy teacher saw it. It matters if
the the, you know, the directoror the choreographer saw it. It
matters if the coach saw. That'swhat matters. And then said, oh,
well, no.
It can matter it can matter if Isaw. So the ability to go inward
and get some of that validationfrom ourself rather than needing
it from other people. And that'salso a practice because it isn't
(29:54):
initially it's a little bit likewhen we do limiting we identify
limiting belief and then we havethis reframed view. And,
initially, it doesn't if you'reif you are accustomed to and
listen. I've been I've been forforty six and more than forty
six and three quarter years beenlooking outward for people to
validate me.
So, no, it doesn't feel assatisfying when I first start
(30:17):
doing it to myself, but I can'tstop. And with practice, like
anything else, it can deepen anddeepen and deepen. So I'm like,
now I'm in that practice. I lookforward to the time when I get
to come back and be like, itdoes feel the same now. It feels
better.
I don't know if this is gonna belike episode, like, 33 or 35 or
(30:38):
something. And maybe I'll saythat episode 150. I mean,
Eric Bomyea (30:45):
it just feels good to be recognized by others as
well. I think it's just thereliance on it. Can we be happy
if we don't get it? And thenwhen we do get it, allowing it
to be that extra little cherryon top.
Timothy Bish (31:02):
Yeah. I mean, when we talk about personal growth
and looking back on our livesand we think about therapy and
all this stuff, we talk aboutour we talk about our childhoods
a lot. And, you know, there'ssort of the joke about, you
know, everything your is yourparents' fault and whatever. But
when you're young, your yoursafety, your security is in the
(31:27):
hands of your caregivers in yourcommunity. So I think what
happens is some of these thingsfeel that important.
And so we learn the lesson then,and it's like, well, now how do
we do we start to change thatwhen the validation feels that
(31:48):
important, but it isn't anymore?I'm I'm an adult now, and I I
know that I can manage certainaspects of my life. But my
internal experience says I stillneed it from them. Right? That's
that's where the work is.
So it's not about, I think,beating up on anyone Mhmm. But
looking back and realizing,well, some of these patterns
were were created when you weremy you being my family, my
(32:12):
community, whatever, my sourceof safety. And I was I was,
like, necessarily looking to youto help me understand my world
and my life. That's how itstarts. We look around to be
like, help me understand what'shappening.
I I understand it by by seeingyou and what you do and how you
reflect back to me. And so,yeah, we start by looking at
(32:34):
other people. Now we have tolearn to look in towards
ourselves. I'd like to recognizethat that is not a small ask.
And this is why I think thereare are whole, like, medical
fields and and industries aroundhelping people to do this very
thing.
Eric Bomyea (32:50):
Yeah. High high achievers are not born
overnight. Right? People thatare are are striving to do the
things, be the best, all thisstuff, that is not born
overnight. It is something thatit's ingrained in us through the
experience that you justdescribed.
And it doesn't also vanishovernight. And I think though
(33:12):
that as a person who is thathigh performance, like do do do
type of person, it can also bean extreme benefit. I have been
able to find ways in which toturn it into a superpower, not
just in my professional career,but now also in my own personal
practices where I can have themotivation to get something done
(33:36):
and strive towards it. Andchecking myself along the way of
what is my motivation, what's myintention behind this, and then
using it then to propel me alongmy journey.
Timothy Bish (33:47):
Well, is foundational in the men's
workspace and in personalgrowth, which is the wound is
often our greatest gift, that weheal others through the process
of healing our own wound. Right?So exactly, it can be a
superpower. Would argue that iflooked at consciously, it almost
(34:12):
always is. So discipline, adesire to a desire for
excellence, these could all betotal superpowers once we
realize what they are, how wegot them, and we don't allow
them to be compulsive.
We allow them to be a a thing, atool we can utilize. I like to
(34:33):
think of it almost like a amusician or a DJ's board and a
dial that I can consciously dialup and dial back depending on
the context. And for me, I'mdialing up that or I'm learning
Eric Bomyea (34:47):
to dial up and down that thing from a place of,
like, growth and opportunity togrow rather than an opportunity
to fix because I'm broken. Ithink that's a distinct
difference is that I wasstriving for so long because I
was broken, because I wasn'tenough. Now I can sometimes, not
(35:11):
all the time, I can sometimesrecognize that like, oh, I'm
doing this because, yes, I canclaim that I'm perfect exactly
the way that I am in thismoment, and I can also improve.
Timothy Bish (35:22):
Yeah. I wanna shine some light though that
that awareness that you havecame from practice. So for the
person who feels broken, therecan still be value in trying to
not feel broken. And then one ofthe benefits can be at some
(35:43):
point you realize, oh, I canshift this perspective. And I
but I I don't know that everyonecan
Eric Bomyea (35:48):
do that immediately. Definitely not. But
I think the underlying thingthough that if we take it back
to the start of thisconversation of how somebody
might fall into that trap oflike, do, do, do, I have to go
to the retreat, do the breathwork, do the thing because I'm
in a constant state of morehealing, right, It's like, okay.
Like and I recognize that I thatI am enough.
Timothy Bish (36:11):
Well, this is why I think I wanted to talk about
this today with regards to beingone of the most advanced
practices that I I don't evenknow if advanced is the right
word so much as impactful, isthe check-in. And I do believe
(36:31):
that sometimes we can sort ofgloss over the check-in as like,
this thing that we do. And andfor those of you who don't know,
a check-in, in a men's space andin the in the men's sharing
circle here in Provincetown, westart with a check-in where we
scan our body from the crown ofthe head down to the, tips of
our toes, moving through thewhole body. And it's a simple
(36:53):
practice where we look forsensation, and then we ask
ourselves, is there an emotionconnected to that sensation? And
we try to keep it really shortand tight without any story.
So an example would be I'll justdo it. Tim checking in, and I
feel an uplifted tension in mycheeks. Feels connected to joy.
(37:22):
I could go on and do the thewhole scan, but not connected to
joy because I'm having fun,recording a podcast or any
story. Just I feel upliftedtension in my cheeks, joy.
And then I feel warmth in mychest, love. And then I feel
tightness in my abdomen,anxiety. And we start to we
(37:44):
start to really clue in,check-in with what we're feeling
because we can't be with ituntil we until we feel it. And I
think so I think another reasonwhy people do so much is because
if we're not aware of what we'refeeling when it's subtle, then
we're only usually ever aware ofwhat we're feeling when it's
(38:06):
gigantic. So then you meet aperson.
I am in incredible pain. Well,if you're in incredible pain, of
course, you're looking toalleviate that pain, to
alleviate the grief, to whateverthe thing is, and there's
nothing wrong with that. So goto a yoga class if yoga class
(38:27):
helps you manage the grief ofhaving lost someone, whether
it's lost them forever or lostthem because it's a breakup. You
know? Go to the kickboxing classif you are you know?
But then when it gets to be morenuanced, start to check-in with
yourself every day so that youcan be with yourself before it's
(38:48):
that big, which I which is nowwhat I'm doing in the morning.
I'm checking with myself. Okay.I woke up feeling scared and
uncertain. I'm not so scared anduncertain that I'm going to
collapse in my day.
And the the the recognition ofit, the claiming of it, and the
being with it immediatelychanges it. So we go to the we
(39:09):
go to the, the scientificexperiment, right, where they're
looking at does it does lightbehave like a wave or a
particle? Remember this? Do knowthis experiment? And the
presence of the observer changesit.
Okay. So I'm not, there'sthere's a scientific experiment.
Eric Bomyea (39:28):
Are you talking about the scientific method or,
like, a scientific experiment?
Timothy Bish (39:31):
There is a scientific experiment about
observing the nature of light.
Eric Bomyea (39:35):
Got it.
Timothy Bish (39:35):
And light can behave both like a wave or like
a particle. And I wanna stophere and say, I am not a science
expert. Right? But part of that,and then we can all look it up
and please write in if there'syou know, the the observer, the
presence of an observer changesthe way it behaves. Okay.
I'm gonna stop there. That'sthat's real, and we're gonna
Google this afterwards. Okay.But this is a real thing. The
(39:59):
the the fact that it's beingobserved changes it.
That is true of our experience.So rather than I'm in so much
pain and now I'm trying tochange it, if I can just observe
and be with, it already startsto change it. And it doesn't
mean that's why we should do it.But it's but we can't be with
(40:22):
something if we don't know it'sthere. So part of the being is,
okay.
So to this morning, I am ascared and uncertain man. I'm a
man who is experiencing fear anduncertainty. I'm also a man
who's experiencing hope andcontentment. You know? Like, all
(40:43):
of these things were true thismorning.
And so, okay, can I just be thatman? And I think the I think it
helps. The problem is it doesn'thelp in a quantifiable way where
I can't say, oh, I did that andI lost five pounds. Or I did
that and, you know, two of thesewrinkles went away. Or I did
that, you know, and I got threephone numbers for dates.
(41:03):
You know? It's like I did thatand I felt something shift. A
worthwhile thing shifted, Ibelieve.
Eric Bomyea (41:10):
That practice and what I heard you say during that
was, I am this, period. There isno story. It's not, I am sad
because X, Y, and Z, and this isthe power of the check-in
practice, is it is radicalpermission to just be. We do not
(41:31):
have to justify our experience.This is my experience.
This is who I am right now. Thisis my being.
Timothy Bish (41:39):
Well, the the the story is the story isn't always
blaming, but it almost alwaysdraws us out of the what is for
us. So if I if I'm like, oh, Ihave tightness in my shoulders
because I did shoulders today,it it still makes it about this
thing that happened in the pastor happened over there. You
(41:59):
know? And
Eric Bomyea (42:00):
The doing rather than the being.
Timothy Bish (42:02):
Right. And then but so with the check-in, if
it's like tightness in myshoulders and fatigue or
sadness, you're like, okay.Because the thing is, it doesn't
matter. You know, if you thinkabout, like, maybe you did
shoulders at the gym, maybe youhad to babysit for your for your
nephew and you had to pick theyou know, the the the why your
(42:25):
shoulders are tight doesn'tmatter. You're still having the
experience you're having, andit's about that.
So when we talk about being,well, what experience are you
having? And a lot of peoplecan't even tell you. And, you
know, I work with so manyclients, but, with acupuncture
and personal training inparticular, when I ask people
(42:47):
when when I ask men, how are youfeeling? It's very often fine.
And now it's actually become ajoke with some of my clients.
I'm like, I need you to say morethan fine. I need fine doesn't
say anything to me. And and Iand I'm encouraging them into
that into that conversationbecause because fine isn't a
feeling. Fine isn't a sensation.And then you realize, oh, we've
(43:10):
been conditioned.
Oh, I'm supposed to just sayit's fine. When in reality, you
might you might be feeling sore.And as a personal trainer, I
might wanna know aboutinformation. Yeah. You might be
feeling really tired.
Oh, maybe maybe I don't wannaweight load you so heavy right
now if if you're at a 90 onyour, you know, fatigue
percentage. But I would need youto be able to tell me that.
(43:33):
That's why this is such animportant like, the check-in is
such an important practice.Everyone should do it every day.
It doesn't take that long.
Eric Bomyea (43:41):
It doesn't take that long. And the the power of
recognizing who you are, howyou're doing in any given moment
without the need to justify, torationalize it, is so
liberating. It really is. Tojust say, I'm tired. That's it.
(44:02):
I'm experiencing fatigue. Or I'mhappy. The storytelling that
goes along with that, reallydoesn't For me, it just
invalidates. It invalidates thefeeling. Like, you're trying to
justify it.
Why do you need to justify it?Why does anyone need to justify
(44:22):
it? Just be. And that's I'm nottrying to say, it's that easy.
Timothy Bish (44:27):
I'm like, that sounds I'm
Eric Bomyea (44:28):
trying to, like, paint the picture of, like, it
can be that easy. It can be thateasy to be like, oh, chili
fingers. I don't have to gothrough and then, like,
criticize my body, shittycirculation because I smoked for
fifteen years. Right? Like, Ican just say, yes, chili
fingers.
Do I want to, like, warm myfingers up? Right? It's just how
(44:50):
I am. It's just who I am rightnow. I don't need to I don't
need to, like, go in the pastand, like, criticize myself, I
can use it as information.
Timothy Bish (44:59):
Sure. It's also empowering them when we think
about destructive behavior. Soif I can recognize if I can go
down the list of experiences, Ifeel angry. Okay. Well, why am I
angry?
Oh, I'm jealous. Why am Ijealous? Oh, that that person
(45:20):
didn't wanna hang out with me.Okay. What what why do I feel
jealous about oh, I don't feelchosen.
Oh, okay. So I I don't feelchosen. I feel abandoned in some
way. And now now I'm on an appsearching for something else.
(45:41):
And then if you can stop insteadof being reflexive, like, well,
I'm just on the app becausethat's what I always do.
And I you know? And yourecognize, oh, I'm on this app
because I feel lonely andunchosen, and I'm looking for
someone to make me feel chosenand less lonely, you might
reconsider that behavior. Thatdoes not mean, by the way, that
(46:02):
you shouldn't be unabs or that,you know, that behavior. You
know? But being conscious of,well, what am I what am I
actually looking for?
And is this what I'm wanting?And oftentimes, it's like, well,
when you recognize it, oh, Imight be able to give that to
myself or I might be able to getit in a healthier way, and then
I could make that choice when Iwanna go on the app because, oh,
(46:23):
I want to have a hookup. Okay.As opposed to I need to have a
hookup to make me feel less,abandoned or less less
invalidated, and therefore, I'mgonna do whatever it takes.
Eric Bomyea (46:36):
Try to seek that and get that externally.
Timothy Bish (46:39):
Right. And so that's one example because there
are so many. And I, you
Eric Bomyea (46:43):
know I just feel inclined. Like, I do, like, yes,
if you want to be on the apps,go on the apps. But I also want
to maybe just give peoplepermission as well that I made a
decision last year. It's beenalmost an entire year since I've
been on any of the dating appsbecause of that behavior. I
recognised what was happeninginside of me and how compulsive
(47:05):
it was.
I wasn't even looking. I wasjust going on blindly,
mindlessly. I'm like, why am Idoing this? Why do I keep doing
this? And I just wanted to givethat as a message to y'all that,
like, you do not need to be onthe apps to have a fulfilling
life.
Like like, if if you want to, gofor it. Do it. Have have the
(47:27):
fun. Do the do the interactionsin however you want to. I also
want to say, like, you can alsobe gay and not be on the the
apps.
Timothy Bish (47:35):
No. I think that I think that's I think that's
totally right. And I'vediscovered that oftentimes, I
would go on the apps to filltime, to feel to get a few
dopamine pings, you know, But Iwould often feel worse. Because
if I'm on and this is why wecome back to this recognizing
(47:55):
what's happening and thenallowing ourselves to be with
it. You're on the app lookingfor a thing that it can't really
give you.
And so when you when you walkaway from it, you haven't gotten
the thing you were looking for.And when you are unconscious of
what that thing is, then you'rejust like, well, I I I put the
(48:17):
app down. I don't feel I feelworse, but I don't know why. As
opposed to, oh, I was lookingfor someone to make me feel less
lonely.
Eric Bomyea (48:23):
Starts with us.
Timothy Bish (48:24):
Right. And then and so then we start to look
into our own feelings and ourown experiences. We start to be
with ourself first and foremost.And then we can recognize, well,
chances are if I wanna feel lesslonely, I probably need to call
someone that I think knows me.And, I mean, these are the
choices that I would make.
(48:45):
So I hear you. I don't think,you know, and then any behavior
that can be compulsive, we couldput into this example.
Absolutely. Because, like,
Eric Bomyea (48:55):
it full circle, it's the dopamine hit of
accomplishing something, doingsomething of like-
Timothy Bish (48:59):
Yeah. I got I got a like, I got a message, I got
an offer.
Eric Bomyea (49:02):
I crossed that thing off my checklist. Whatever
it might be, right, that hit.Yeah. And like, again
Timothy Bish (49:07):
I got a I got a drink. I got a hit. I got a
like, it can be any of thesethings. It's the motivation. Why
am, like, why am I doing that?
And and a lot of that is youprobably don't know if you
haven't been with yourself. AndI suspect for people who are
practicing this observation oftheir internal experience and
(49:28):
and trying to be with it, Itdoesn't mean that they might not
do any of these behaviors, butif they were to do it, I suspect
it would be much more conscious.I'm choosing to do this as
opposed to this is the
Eric Bomyea (49:42):
thing I always do. The power of choice and making
the conscious choice. Andsometimes that conscious choice
is I'm choosing to do nothing orI'm choosing to reduce the
amount of practice that I'mdoing and being able to
recognize that.
Timothy Bish (50:03):
So men's work, it's really about helping us to
connect to our full humanexperience. And, you know, one
of the cultural challenges thatmen have is not feeling like
they have permission to to feeltheir emotions. And so a lot of
the strategies then around thatis to suppress them, to ignore
(50:26):
them. And what we've learned isthat that doesn't that doesn't
make them go away. It just putsthem in a different form, and
then they come up.
They they surface in in otherways. They're not gone. And so
that's what this is. Thepractice of being with yourself
sometimes then means being, as Idescribed earlier, being with an
(50:49):
uncomfortable version of you.And the it might sound at first
to be like, well, what if I justdon't pay attention to it?
But that it's not gonna go away.So the truth is I'm going
through a divorce, and I have,over the last few months, been
feeling a lot of fear anduncertainty. Pretending that I'm
not feeling fearful anduncertain is not gonna make it
(51:10):
go away. I suspect it wouldactually make it worse. So would
I rather be sitting or would Irather my being be like, oh, I'm
just, like, really content andjoyful, and I feel I mean, yes.
And on those moments, I I I hopethat I remember to savor them.
But the practice is going toinclude being with yourself when
(51:32):
it is uncomfortable, and that'spart of the practice. And we go
back to the to the athlete orthe dancer. That's the moment
you went to the lesson or to thepractice or to the rehearsal
when you didn't want to. Fastforward to you won the gold
medal.
You are performing at the MetOpera. You know, whatever the
thing is, it's a necessary stepin that direction.
Eric Bomyea (51:54):
This has been really enlightening for me as
I've gone through a lot of thiswork and a lot of what we've
talked about today of thestriving, overachieving, why am
I doing certain things andreally wanting to offer to folks
(52:16):
that it can be of service. Itcan be of service to be
achieving something, especiallywhen the motivation is for
yourself. And then over time,just resting in the beingness of
yourself. I don't know. Do havea more elaborate way to wrap up
(52:40):
right now as my brain is feelinga little tingly and mushy?
Timothy Bish (52:44):
Well, like, what what are you being with? You're
being with tingling andmushiness?
Eric Bomyea (52:48):
Yeah. Like like a little dullness in the brain.
Timothy Bish (52:51):
Yeah. Yeah. So you're a man who's experiencing
some dullness right now. Yeah.Okay.
Well, you can be with that. Ithink that to me, feels deeply
connected to these universalteachings. That yogic teaching
of every posture or practice isa combination of effort and
grace to the Chinese teaching ofyin yang where everything that
(53:12):
exists has both of them, iscomprised of both of them. It
cannot be a 100% of one and zeroof the other. Right?
And so in our journey, we needto have the masculine, feminine,
the sun, the moon. We need tohave some doing, and we need to
have some being. So a fewtakeaways. First and foremost,
(53:35):
we live in a world that reallyprioritizes the doing. So then
maybe one of the things we needto do is to practice how to how
to be.
But we have to recognize thatthe nature of our world and the
nature of our human experienceand our life is going to be a
mix of these things. So get morein touch with being with
(53:58):
yourself, and then let thatbeing influence how and what you
are doing, and let themcommingle. So one of the images
that we use in men's work a lotwhen we talk about the masculine
and the feminine or the yin andthe yang is the river and its
(54:19):
banks. And when you think of ariver, most of the time when I
have this image, they're justtogether. Now imagine just
banks, an empty riverbed.
Okay? And now imagine a riverwith no banks. You're like, it's
just like sort of a chaoticflood. Right? They need to be
together, and I think it's thesame.
So when we think about being anddoing, we have to let them both
(54:43):
coexist. So for our purposes, weneed to invite more being
because we're super good atdoing. Men, in particular, are
good at doing. Queer men aregood at are good at hyper doing
to make up for, you know, allthe ways that they felt like
they weren't good enough. And socan we practice just being and
(55:07):
what's coming?
And by the way, I will keep youupdated because it is a
practice, and I would rather bedoing. I would rather you tell
me five push ups and five situps, and then and then I won't
be uncertain anymore. That wouldbe great, but that isn't how
it's gonna work. So I'm gonnakeep practicing, and I will keep
letting you know how it goes.But besides that, I'm feeling
(55:28):
complete.
Feelcom Alright. Let's, closeour eyes. Take a deep inhale.
Big, loud exhale. And it is withdeep appreciation and gratitude
for any insights, awarenesses,or understandings that we may
have gained in the sacred sharedspace that we now release the
archetypes and the spirits thatwe called in.
(55:49):
I wish everyone safety and loveas we leave. And with these
words are containers open, butnot broken. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go
all in on men's work, embodimentpractices, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. Ifyou're enjoying the show, please
be sure to share your favoriteepisode, leave a review, and
subscribe. And if you have aquestion about anything you've
heard us talk about, please sendus a message. We'd love to hear
from you. And now onto the show.
Many of us come into embodimentwork and personal growth looking
to feel more whole, moregrounded, more present, more
(00:29):
connected. But somewhere alongthe way, some old patterns might
sneak in. The striving, thefixing, the belief that if we
just do enough breath work,enough shadow work, enough
healing, we'll finally be okay.We turn our spiritual practice
into another hustle. Healingbecomes another form of
productivity.
And without realizing it, webring the same mindset that
burned us out right into thevery place we're trying to find
(00:50):
peace. But what if that need tokeep going is the very thing
that keeps us from feelingenough? Today, we're talking
about the radical act ofstopping, of letting go, of just
being. Because maybe, justmaybe, that's where the real
transformation begins. Tim, areyou ready to go all in?
Timothy Bish (01:06):
I'm ready. Let's do this.
Eric Bomyea (01:08):
So there was a stretch of time where I was
doing all the things, all thehealing things. I was in
therapy, I was doing breathworks, I was in men's group,
intensive programs. But itseemed like no matter how much I
did, I still felt like I wasfalling short. Like there was
some sort of better or morehealed version of me that I
hadn't reached yet, and I wassomehow failing or not getting
there fast enough. So Tim, I'mcurious, have you experienced
(01:31):
that too?
And if so, what do you thinkdrives that constant need to
improve even in the healingspace?
Timothy Bish (01:38):
I have absolutely experienced that, and I think
everybody that I know where I'vehad this conversation has also
experienced it. So I feel likeone thing that happens
frequently is something happensin your life that is
challenging, upsetting,uncomfortable, potentially sad,
(02:01):
or requires grief, and you arelooking for something. So I had
yoga teachers who would oftensay, you know, people will come
to yoga because this thing hashappened, and they're looking
for something. I don't thinkthere's anything wrong with
recognizing that you're in deeppain, and you're looking for
(02:25):
ways to maybe not feel thatpain. Similar to you, I've been
especially, you know, recently,I just got divorced.
I had to go through that lifetransition, and I was doubled
down. I'm journaling. I'm doingbreath work. I'm meditating. I'm
in groups and, you know, leadinggroups and going to groups, and
I'm going to retreats.
And, you know, I I wanted tofind some solutions and to
(02:48):
create to create the causes forwhat I wanted next. And so I
don't think I don't think mostpeople come purely in, I'm gonna
be as excellent at spiritualityas I am at other things. It it
hasn't occurred to me quite likethat from most of the people
that I've been, talking to. Butwhat what I think does happen is
(03:13):
you come looking for something,and then you get little glimpses
of it. So you take a yoga class,and you feel better when you're
done.
Sometimes you'll you'll have,oh, in fifteen minutes of that
class, I forgot about my breakupor I forgot about the, you know,
the thing, and there's somerelief. And so you you keep
coming back. You keep comingback. But I think at some point,
(03:35):
you have to be mindful then ofwhat what that is and and what
what is really healing.
Eric Bomyea (03:45):
What I'm hearing there is that many of us will
come to a spiritual practice orspiritual space as a remedy.
We've got a current pain orproblem that we're trying to
solve that has led us to seekingthis out as a solution. So
seeking it out as a remedy forthe malady that we're
experiencing. And then very fewof us, I would say, are going in
(04:11):
and saying like, Oh, I'm goingto go into this thing to be the
best. So those are the twothings that I was hearing you
say.
One is that we're going in withthe intention of helping
ourselves. And we're not goingin with the intention of like,
Oh, I'm doing this thing to helpmyself and I'm going to be the
best. But potentially whathappens over time, and I'll tell
an experience that I had on myfirst silent meditation retreat.
I went in with beginner's mind.I had really very little
(04:35):
experience with meditation.
And I was like, oh, I'm justgonna do this five day silent
practice, and I'm gonna see howit goes. It was very quick,
probably within the first day ortwo that I was like, oh, I'm
gonna be the best meditator. Iwas like, I was looking around.
I was judging people. I waslike, I see you over there
shifting.
I see you over there fidgeting.I was like, I'm gonna be better
(04:56):
than that. I'm gonna sit hereall stoic and like, I'm not
gonna move and I'm gonna be thebest meditator in this room. And
I had to catch myself. Was like,woah, woah, woah.
Like, where did that come from?Like, is this serving me right
now to be the best meditator?
Timothy Bish (05:11):
Well, what or what does that even mean? Right. And
I think that's the thing. We wecan get wrapped up then, and and
I think this is one of theseductive dangers of yoga asana
is that, you know, you do theyoga asana practice, and it can
have it can transform your bodyin ways that people tend to
really like, and it can beacrobatic and at times very
(05:36):
impressive looking. So people goinitially looking for for
something deeper often, and andthen you can get wrapped up in,
well, not only did I feel betterfor x amount of time because of
that practice, now I realize,oh, I was the deepest in my
split.
And then if that starts tomatter, then you can start to
(05:58):
focus on, like, all theincredible things you can do,
and and it can distract fromwhat's really happening, which
is, well, what is it about thispractice that helps you feel
more grounded, more present,less burdened by whatever you're
burdened by, gives you greaterclarity? You know, the split
doesn't matter.
Eric Bomyea (06:16):
Yeah. The irony is that the benefit for me in these
spaces and in these practices isthe going in and being with
myself and tending inward. Andthen what ends up happening in
examples like that where I mightbe trying to do the poses the
most and being the impressiveperson in the split is I'm going
(06:36):
external. I'm now out into theworld again, and I'm seeking
outside validation rather thanworking within. And so I think
that's just really a fascinatingswitch that sometimes happen.
Where's the line between I'mworking on my practice and I'm
deepening into my practice andperformance?
Timothy Bish (06:58):
Right. I think it's caring about someone else's
opinion of your process. Right?So, you know, and I learned this
this is why they you know, indance and in yoga, they often
say, you know, an injury canteach you so much. And that's a
tough lesson to learn becauseinjuries are tricky, and they
(07:18):
don't feel good.
But but having danced andpracticed yoga with and through
injuries at times, it really istrue because then there were
many moments when, oh, the thingI have to do now to honor where
I'm at is wildly different thanthe thing that I could do and
that will likely be able to dolater that is more impressive.
(07:42):
And I have to I have to bewilling to be here now and know
that I cannot tell you know, Iwas practicing in New York City.
I can't walk around and tell the35 other people in class, hey,
by the way, I'm working withthis injury. So when we did
forearm stand and I didn't do itand I was in a different pose,
like, but I just need you toknow that I could do you know
what I mean? Mhmm.
And so so in that moment, youhave to you have to practice
(08:05):
being being like, well, I haveto focus on what I'm doing. I
and I can't and then I but sohere's the thing, because I do
it all the time. I mean, I haveI have an embarrassing amount of
looking outward, you know, forany number of reasons, and I
work on it. So I don't thinkit's necessarily always about
just stopping that. Because ifsomeone knows how to do that and
(08:28):
you're listening to thispodcast, please send us an email
and tell me how.
But I think instead, it'srecognizing, oh, I I I wanted
that person to know that I coulddo a split. I wanted them to see
me in that impressive forearmstand.
Eric Bomyea (08:42):
Like me in the meditation hall being like, I'm
gonna let you know subliminally,I'm going to trans I'm going to,
like, send this to you that,like, I'm not going to fidget. I
see you fidgeting. I'm not goingto fidget.
Timothy Bish (08:52):
Yeah. Like I mean, yes. And so then you just
recognize, oh, there's thatthing making it about what they
think. And it also happens soI'll tell you a story from
today, this morning, where I gotup and, I have the dog, so my
morning routine is a little bitdifferent, and I and I felt like
I had a little bit less time.And so, normally, I get up and I
(09:13):
do my journaling, which takes meabout thirty minutes, and then I
do this breath practice.
And for the last few months,I've been doing four rounds of
Wim Hof. It's taking me justunder fifteen minutes. And
today, I was like, if I do thatvideo, that YouTube video, I'm
gonna be cutting it prettyclose. Then I'll have to rush my
walk with the dog, I didn'twanna do that. And so I'm like,
(09:35):
well, I could go back to thethree round, you know, YouTube
video that I started with.
You know? And I had thisinternal conflict about, well,
is that less? Is that you know?And then I've I've had that same
thought. Like, this can be ittoday, and it doesn't have to be
compared to yesterday ortomorrow.
And what what would that feellike? And so I I settled, but it
(09:59):
was it was a practice ofawareness. I'm aware that I'm
competing with a previousversion of myself and an
idealized version of myselfbecause I have this need to be
exceptional because I'mterrified no one's gonna love
me. All of this to say there wasa part of me that was more
willing to not do the breathpractice than to do a reduced
version because then I wouldhave felt like I wasn't doing it
(10:20):
enough. And then I was like,Tim, this is your practice.
Just do the three rounds.
Eric Bomyea (10:25):
Commendable to see it, to have that internal
dialogue with yourself. I veryrarely see it. I'm like, for me
myself, if I'm in that position,I'm I'm either like, I'm gonna
do it or burn it all down.Right? Like, forget I'm just not
even gonna do it.
If I can't do it to what is onmy task list, what's on my to do
list Yeah. And this is somethingI wanna chat about is that,
(10:47):
like, sometimes for me, I lookat my spiritual practices almost
as a to do, and I think there'sanother fine line between
holding yourself accountable topersonal growth spiritual
practices and checking somethingoff of a list.
Timothy Bish (11:03):
Right. And I think I think it exists on a spectrum.
Right? So I believe my ownpersonal experience has been
that there have been times whenchecking things off the list was
really helpful, especially inthe beginning. And that list
making me do things that thatwithout it, I might have I don't
(11:24):
really you know?
There was a lot to learn, but Ithink in our evolution as
people, whether we're talkingabout spirituality or just
personal growth, as we start todeepen into things, we might
then rely on them less. So, youknow, I'll I'll go to swimming.
I was a swimmer when I was inhigh school, and we had lots of
(11:44):
different tools that we woulduse for different drills. We had
kickboards. We had hand paddles.
We had pull buoys and all allkinds of things that we would
use. And your relationship withthose things changes. And I feel
like we have to allow that inour spiritual growth. But for
me, I'm hearing from you and Ithink a lot of people, well, it
(12:05):
was because it can also add up.It's supposed to be an hour of
yoga asana, thirty minutes ofmeditation.
I should probably do thirtyminutes of breath work. I do
(12:28):
believe that there should besome structure, and that
structure for me is I would likethere to be some practice for me
every day. And then that canthere can be some flow in so
typically, do four rounds of WimHof. Today, I did three. That
does not make me a failure at myspiritual practice, but that's a
practice because there's a partof me that wanted to say that.
Eric Bomyea (12:47):
Yeah. So what I'm hearing is it's almost like the
task list can be the trainingwheels that can help us get into
habit and routine and ritual. Ifwe're bringing in a devotional
sense to them, it can be aritualistic thing. And then over
time, we can start to remove ornot have as much rigid structure
because it becomes more of anembodied process. We're able to
(13:09):
feel into, how am I today orwhere am I at today?
And can I say I can still do apractice and it's going to be
three rounds of breath ratherthan four rounds and still
commit to that? Because me, in apast life, I would have burned
it all down. If I can't do thefour, I won't do it all.
Timothy Bish (13:29):
Yeah. Well, that that's one extreme, and I can
really relate to that. I thinkwe have that in common. I I
think, though, the structure isimportant because the other
extreme is the people lettingthemselves off the hook so
easily. And wanting to bring alot of love and compassion to
that, it isn't a blame or a bad,but you might be missing some
(13:50):
gold if you you don't pushthrough the some of the moments
that you didn't wanna be at.
So anything worth doing, andI've talked about this with
regards to my dance career, youhave to be willing to go to
class when you don't want to.All the people who made it. And
and it's dance class or it'syour voice lessons or it's
(14:11):
whatever the thing is. Sometimesyou're gonna go and you don't
wanna go. And I think that's abig difference.
The willingness to go when youdon't wanna go and then then the
experience of what it feelslike. Sometimes you go when you
don't wanna go, and then it'sthe worst. But sometimes you're
like, I didn't wanna do this,but that was killer. I'm so glad
(14:33):
I did it. So glad I did it.
I think I, have I told the thestory about Sleep No More on
this podcast?
Eric Bomyea (14:40):
Not that I recall.
Timothy Bish (14:40):
Okay. Sleep No More is this interactive theater
experience in New York Cityabout Macbeth. Mhmm. Have I not
told this? Okay.
And my my first husband, wantedto see the show, and so I got
him tickets for the for the showfor his birthday. And
Eric Bomyea (15:01):
I
Timothy Bish (15:01):
did not wanna go. I was like, this sounds
miserable. I don't wanna do it.But it's his birthday, I agreed
to do it, and we go and do it.Anyway, the short version of the
story, you get separated andeveryone's wearing masks.
So you're in this big, like,five story, like, warehouse
where you can just meander andall kinds of things are
happening, and it's really welldone. So you're not really with
your person or your people.You're kinda separated the whole
(15:22):
time. Anyway, I proceed to havethe most incredible experience.
I got called out, singled out bylead actors in the show on two
separate occasions.
Actually, the witch at one pointpulled me aside and gave me the
a kiss. I was the only personin, like, the 400 people in this
experience that had lip marks onmy mask. At the end, I was like,
Eric Bomyea (15:43):
that
Timothy Bish (15:43):
was amazing. And I asked I asked, you know, my
first husband how was hisexperience. And, you know, he
went with the expectation ofwanting the experience that I
ultimately ended up having. Sohe was a little disappointed.
And I was like, oh, that was sogreat.
And if two hours prior, I wouldhave been like, I don't wanna
go. Mhmm. And now I I like Itell that story frequently. It
(16:06):
so there is value I think inshowing up sometimes when you
don't want to. It isn't alwaysgonna be what I just described,
but what you learn as anathlete, what you learn as a
whatever endeavor you're doingcould be gold in that moment.
So I think there's that. Andthen as you start to get more
and more steeped, then you haveto start to soften around those
(16:28):
and really make your choicesbased more on what your purpose
is and less on what you'resupposed tos are. And the
intention too. Right? I do thinkit's important to show up,
really do believe in this mantrathat showing up is the hardest
Eric Bomyea (16:44):
part. And I think though showing up with the
intention of, Oh, I'm going tothis class or I'm going to this
show because it is out ofservice and love and devotion,
either to somebody else or tomyself. And that can result in a
personal growth experience orsomething magical can happen out
(17:05):
of that with the rightintention. But if I'm going with
the intention of I want to gobecause I'm trying to fix
something or I'm trying to provesomething, trying to get
external validation from it,then I feel like we start to
maybe dip into a differentterritory with that.
Timothy Bish (17:24):
Right. And I think we need to shed light. So one of
the reasons why I am prone todoing that is because I would
only get validation, especiallyat a young age, when I would do
exceptional things. So I wastrained to be constantly
striving for exceptional to beexceptional in ways, and that
(17:46):
often meant, you know, bewilling to go the extra mile and
checking things off the list. Sowhen we start to look at that
and recognize, is that servingme or not?
We have to look at it with a lotof compassion. And so it isn't,
in my in my opinion and in mypersonal experience, it isn't
about removing it. I don't thinkI don't think I'm ever gonna
(18:08):
fully remove it unless I get,you know, enlightened. I think
it will be about recognizing itand then consciously choosing
with that recognition. Oh, partof me wants to do this because
it's an old pattern ofachievement and validation
seeking.
Is that serving me right now?And, you know, in the, the
(18:31):
example I gave earlier with mypractice this morning, I am very
glad that I did three breathsthree rounds of breath rather
than none. So I actually thinkit's served. And if I have time
tomorrow, I'll probably do four.Because four feels good.
Mhmm. Feels like a stretch, andI feel like that's part of it.
I'm like, I'm trying to stretch.
Eric Bomyea (18:52):
Right. And so what I what I hear there is that
there is a true genuine desirefor personal growth rather than
this need to perform. Or thenext concept that I want to
introduce is the desire to fixourselves because we feel
broken, Like, oh, I have to dothis thing in order to be the
(19:13):
most healed. I have to do thisthing in order to be the most
present. And so can you talk tome about your journey of getting
to that point of being able tohave that genuine desire for
growth?
Timothy Bish (19:28):
Oh, I'm gonna ask you to ask that question again
in a second. The thing I wannabring up because it's what just
inspired is, you know, the eightlimbs of yoga. For for the
Ishtanga yoga or the Raja yogapath, the eight limbs, yama,
niyama, asana, pranayama,pratyahara, dharana, dhyana, and
samadhi. Right? So the ethicalconsiderations and observances,
(19:52):
the postures, the breath, sensewithdrawal, the first the first
six are things that we can do.
And and then in the doing ofthose things, we start to create
the foundation for thepossibility of the next two that
we can't do in the same way thatwe think of as doing. Now if you
(20:19):
speak to an enlightened being,they probably will have a better
explanation of that. But, thatmeditative absorption and then
the state of samadhi bliss orecstasy, these are things that
that we have to do things tocreate the causes for, but we
can't do them. So it's thisblend of there is some doing in
(20:42):
our path, but I think that doingallows us to then be. And so we
have to or I invite us all toconsider, can we allow being to
be a component while we aredoing?
Eric Bomyea (20:58):
So if I'm understanding, like, the concept
is here that I cannot do bliss.I can be bliss, and in order to
be bliss, there are things thatI can do to get to that state.
Yeah. Right. Correct?
Timothy Bish (21:15):
Okay. Yeah. There right. There exactly. There are
there are things that I can doto prepare myself.
You know? So Amir talks aboutthis, like, cleansing the temple
body, cleansing our physical andsubtle body, basically preparing
ourselves to the best of ourability to be ready for the
depth of experience that we'rethat we're hoping to have. But
(21:36):
we can't we can't just do thatdepth of experience. Like, we
create the causes and thefoundation for it, and then we
have to be and and then meetthat moment when it when it
comes. So, yeah, that's that'swhy to me, it's a really because
I don't it isn't about notdoing.
To me, especially where I'm atnow going through my divorce,
(21:58):
and there are moments when I'mlike, I want to feel
differently. And so what I wantyou to do is to give me the
recipe, and I can just I'll dothat recipe, and then I'll feel
better. And the lesson that I'vebeen learning is that isn't how
this is gonna work. You're gonnahave to be with some of these
feelings and these experiences,and you're gonna have to be
(22:19):
waiting, be in the waiting forthe answers that you're in the
clarity you're looking for.
Eric Bomyea (22:25):
What I'm hearing too, this goes back to the
intention behind something. Whyam I doing it? Am I doing it
because I'm like, oh, thecurrent situation I'm in right
now needs to be fixed, changedradically different. And I'm
just not okay with either whatI'm in or who I am in this
present moment. And so I'mtrying to fix myself.
(22:48):
And so there may be a narrativeof I am not enough going on. And
so now I have to do, do, do. Ihave to do the four rounds of
breath. I have to do the thirtyminutes of journaling. I have to
do the two hours of yoga everyday, right?
Because I have to do thesethings in order to become that
thing that I'm trying to become.And I think, again, there's just
(23:12):
such a fine line here betweenthere's aspirational striving
of, I do want to become a betterperson, a more healed person, a
deeper connected person. But howdoes that, like, how can that
sometimes dip into the, like, Iam not enough currently, and I'm
trying to fix myself?
Timothy Bish (23:31):
Well, I I mean, that's important. I think that
it's okay if you are reallyuncomfortable and you wanna
change something. I think that'stotally okay. And I think it's
okay if aspects of yourspiritual practice do make a
change even if it's temporary. Ido some breath work and some
(23:51):
meditation, and I feel betterfor a period of time.
I'm less burdened by the thingthat's happening. Great. But we
have to be mindful if that's allwe're doing. I'm uncomfortable.
I want to change, and now I'mgonna run to this practice to
get it to change.
And I think what I'm learningand discovering now is that I
have to be willing to sit with,oh, I'm feeling I'm feeling
(24:16):
scared and uncertain. That'sthat's what I'm feeling. That's
the experience that I'm having.And and what I've been doing in
my own personal practice, Irecognize, okay. I'm feeling
scared and uncertain.
Here's the experience that thatexists in my physical body. So
right now, fear and uncertainty,although I'm not feeling it in
this moment, but this morning,I'm like, it felt like a
tightness in my midline. I Ikind of identify, well, this is
(24:37):
what I'm feeling. This is myexperience. And then I say,
okay.
I have to just be comfortablebeing that person who's having
that experience. And then when Isat down to do my breath, even
though the breath does make mefeel better, I couldn't do it
(24:59):
just so that it would make mefeel better. And then I think
there are moments when you can.You know what's gonna make me
feel better if I do a little bitof breath? Okay.
No problem. But but it can't bethe everyday. Like, the reason I
did the breath was because I hadmade commitments to myself that
that were bigger than this onemoment of uncertainty that I'm
describing. And so I went to thebreath, and it did make me feel
(25:19):
better. But I had to be willingto sit with, well, this is
actually my experience, and Ican't try to run from it by
hiding it with a thing.
You know, it's not differentthan drugs and alcohol. Mhmm.
Right? So we can numb ourselvesin all kinds of ways. We can do
it with exercise.
We you know, we and so we haveto be mindful of, well, when am
(25:42):
I when am I using somethingconsciously? When am I using it
reflexively or reactively? Andwhen am I when am I running
towards something, and when am Irunning away from something?
Eric Bomyea (25:56):
I think that those recognitions and that that
tuning into what's going on, theintention behind something, the
motivation behind something, Ithink is the really critical
component here. And I like torefer to many of these things as
(26:16):
tools. They are tools in thetoolkit to pull forward, to pull
out at certain times because Iknow that there is an effect
that it has on me. But it's notnecessarily that I'm gonna do
this breathwork practice becauseI know the feeling that this
(26:36):
breathwork practice. It's morethat like, oh, I'm gonna commit
to something for myself.
And then in the doing of thatand in the accomplishment of
that, I'm in a cycle of personalgrowth. Going back to that going
to the class when it feels a
Timothy Bish (26:55):
little
Eric Bomyea (26:55):
uncomfortable, right, when it's the desire may
not truly be there. But therecognition that, like, I know
that, like, if I'm trulycommitted to myself, that this
is going to benefit me. It maynot be the actual tangible, this
breath work practice made myhead go tingly, but it's the
(27:16):
accomplishment afterwards oflike, I did this, I pushed
myself, and now I'm like, whatwas the quote that you said
recently about like, like, selfconfidence and upholding the
commitments that we make toourselves?
Timothy Bish (27:29):
Oh, it was Carolyn Mays who, in her lecture series
about building self esteem andthe way that we build self
esteem by upholding thecommitments we make to
ourselves. And that that has hada huge impact in my life because
there's truth to it. If I don'thonor the commitments that I
(27:50):
make to me, well, then why wouldI like, how could I reasonably
expect anyone else to honorthem? And what happens when I
start chipping away at my ownself trust? Oh, I really I can't
trust myself to do any of thethings I say I'm gonna do, and
then I don't ever do anything.
Eric Bomyea (28:07):
That's why I referenced that is like in those
moments of like, why am I doingsomething? Again, it's not about
how physically I'm going to feelafter the yoga practice or the
breath work or whatever it mightbe. It's the, oh, I'm setting
myself a thing that I want toaccomplish and I'm upholding
(28:31):
myself to that. Yeah. And I'mbuilding that self esteem so
that over time, maybe I have toseek less externally because I'm
doing this for myself, bymyself.
Yeah. I mean,
Timothy Bish (28:46):
I think I think a lot of these practices are
geared at giving us an aninternal experience so that we
can start to understand what ourinternal experience is and start
to trust it. Because I can'tmake you validate me, but I can
I can start to look inward andvalidate myself? You know, this
(29:09):
is a practice I've been doing atnight now just recently, and
it's I wanted to become moremore regular. But recognizing,
oh, Tim, you did you did a greatjob doing this sort of
recognizing and validatingmyself because I just was never
in a I was never in a headspacebefore to do that. Never thought
(29:30):
of it.
It was like, oh, it matters ifmy teacher saw it. It matters if
the the, you know, the directoror the choreographer saw it. It
matters if the coach saw. That'swhat matters. And then said, oh,
well, no.
It can matter it can matter if Isaw. So the ability to go inward
and get some of that validationfrom ourself rather than needing
it from other people. And that'salso a practice because it isn't
(29:54):
initially it's a little bit likewhen we do limiting we identify
limiting belief and then we havethis reframed view. And,
initially, it doesn't if you'reif you are accustomed to and
listen. I've been I've been forforty six and more than forty
six and three quarter years beenlooking outward for people to
validate me.
So, no, it doesn't feel assatisfying when I first start
(30:17):
doing it to myself, but I can'tstop. And with practice, like
anything else, it can deepen anddeepen and deepen. So I'm like,
now I'm in that practice. I lookforward to the time when I get
to come back and be like, itdoes feel the same now. It feels
better.
I don't know if this is gonna belike episode, like, 33 or 35 or
(30:38):
something. And maybe I'll saythat episode 150. I mean,
Eric Bomyea (30:45):
it just feels good to be recognized by others as
well. I think it's just thereliance on it. Can we be happy
if we don't get it? And thenwhen we do get it, allowing it
to be that extra little cherryon top.
Timothy Bish (31:02):
Yeah. I mean, when we talk about personal growth
and looking back on our livesand we think about therapy and
all this stuff, we talk aboutour we talk about our childhoods
a lot. And, you know, there'ssort of the joke about, you
know, everything your is yourparents' fault and whatever. But
when you're young, your yoursafety, your security is in the
(31:27):
hands of your caregivers in yourcommunity. So I think what
happens is some of these thingsfeel that important.
And so we learn the lesson then,and it's like, well, now how do
we do we start to change thatwhen the validation feels that
(31:48):
important, but it isn't anymore?I'm I'm an adult now, and I I
know that I can manage certainaspects of my life. But my
internal experience says I stillneed it from them. Right? That's
that's where the work is.
So it's not about, I think,beating up on anyone Mhmm. But
looking back and realizing,well, some of these patterns
were were created when you weremy you being my family, my
(32:12):
community, whatever, my sourceof safety. And I was I was,
like, necessarily looking to youto help me understand my world
and my life. That's how itstarts. We look around to be
like, help me understand what'shappening.
I I understand it by by seeingyou and what you do and how you
reflect back to me. And so,yeah, we start by looking at
(32:34):
other people. Now we have tolearn to look in towards
ourselves. I'd like to recognizethat that is not a small ask.
And this is why I think thereare are whole, like, medical
fields and and industries aroundhelping people to do this very
thing.
Eric Bomyea (32:50):
Yeah. High high achievers are not born
overnight. Right? People thatare are are striving to do the
things, be the best, all thisstuff, that is not born
overnight. It is something thatit's ingrained in us through the
experience that you justdescribed.
And it doesn't also vanishovernight. And I think though
(33:12):
that as a person who is thathigh performance, like do do do
type of person, it can also bean extreme benefit. I have been
able to find ways in which toturn it into a superpower, not
just in my professional career,but now also in my own personal
practices where I can have themotivation to get something done
(33:36):
and strive towards it. Andchecking myself along the way of
what is my motivation, what's myintention behind this, and then
using it then to propel me alongmy journey.
Timothy Bish (33:47):
Well, is foundational in the men's
workspace and in personalgrowth, which is the wound is
often our greatest gift, that weheal others through the process
of healing our own wound. Right?So exactly, it can be a
superpower. Would argue that iflooked at consciously, it almost
(34:12):
always is. So discipline, adesire to a desire for
excellence, these could all betotal superpowers once we
realize what they are, how wegot them, and we don't allow
them to be compulsive.
We allow them to be a a thing, atool we can utilize. I like to
(34:33):
think of it almost like a amusician or a DJ's board and a
dial that I can consciously dialup and dial back depending on
the context. And for me, I'mdialing up that or I'm learning
Eric Bomyea (34:47):
to dial up and down that thing from a place of,
like, growth and opportunity togrow rather than an opportunity
to fix because I'm broken. Ithink that's a distinct
difference is that I wasstriving for so long because I
was broken, because I wasn'tenough. Now I can sometimes, not
(35:11):
all the time, I can sometimesrecognize that like, oh, I'm
doing this because, yes, I canclaim that I'm perfect exactly
the way that I am in thismoment, and I can also improve.
Timothy Bish (35:22):
Yeah. I wanna shine some light though that
that awareness that you havecame from practice. So for the
person who feels broken, therecan still be value in trying to
not feel broken. And then one ofthe benefits can be at some
(35:43):
point you realize, oh, I canshift this perspective. And I
but I I don't know that everyonecan
Eric Bomyea (35:48):
do that immediately. Definitely not. But
I think the underlying thingthough that if we take it back
to the start of thisconversation of how somebody
might fall into that trap oflike, do, do, do, I have to go
to the retreat, do the breathwork, do the thing because I'm
in a constant state of morehealing, right, It's like, okay.
Like and I recognize that I thatI am enough.
Timothy Bish (36:11):
Well, this is why I think I wanted to talk about
this today with regards to beingone of the most advanced
practices that I I don't evenknow if advanced is the right
word so much as impactful, isthe check-in. And I do believe
(36:31):
that sometimes we can sort ofgloss over the check-in as like,
this thing that we do. And andfor those of you who don't know,
a check-in, in a men's space andin the in the men's sharing
circle here in Provincetown, westart with a check-in where we
scan our body from the crown ofthe head down to the, tips of
our toes, moving through thewhole body. And it's a simple
(36:53):
practice where we look forsensation, and then we ask
ourselves, is there an emotionconnected to that sensation? And
we try to keep it really shortand tight without any story.
So an example would be I'll justdo it. Tim checking in, and I
feel an uplifted tension in mycheeks. Feels connected to joy.
(37:22):
I could go on and do the thewhole scan, but not connected to
joy because I'm having fun,recording a podcast or any
story. Just I feel upliftedtension in my cheeks, joy.
And then I feel warmth in mychest, love. And then I feel
tightness in my abdomen,anxiety. And we start to we
(37:44):
start to really clue in,check-in with what we're feeling
because we can't be with ituntil we until we feel it. And I
think so I think another reasonwhy people do so much is because
if we're not aware of what we'refeeling when it's subtle, then
we're only usually ever aware ofwhat we're feeling when it's
(38:06):
gigantic. So then you meet aperson.
I am in incredible pain. Well,if you're in incredible pain, of
course, you're looking toalleviate that pain, to
alleviate the grief, to whateverthe thing is, and there's
nothing wrong with that. So goto a yoga class if yoga class
(38:27):
helps you manage the grief ofhaving lost someone, whether
it's lost them forever or lostthem because it's a breakup. You
know? Go to the kickboxing classif you are you know?
But then when it gets to be morenuanced, start to check-in with
yourself every day so that youcan be with yourself before it's
(38:48):
that big, which I which is nowwhat I'm doing in the morning.
I'm checking with myself. Okay.I woke up feeling scared and
uncertain. I'm not so scared anduncertain that I'm going to
collapse in my day.
And the the the recognition ofit, the claiming of it, and the
being with it immediatelychanges it. So we go to the we
(39:09):
go to the, the scientificexperiment, right, where they're
looking at does it does lightbehave like a wave or a
particle? Remember this? Do knowthis experiment? And the
presence of the observer changesit.
Okay. So I'm not, there'sthere's a scientific experiment.
Eric Bomyea (39:28):
Are you talking about the scientific method or,
like, a scientific experiment?
Timothy Bish (39:31):
There is a scientific experiment about
observing the nature of light.
Eric Bomyea (39:35):
Got it.
Timothy Bish (39:35):
And light can behave both like a wave or like
a particle. And I wanna stophere and say, I am not a science
expert. Right? But part of that,and then we can all look it up
and please write in if there'syou know, the the observer, the
presence of an observer changesthe way it behaves. Okay.
I'm gonna stop there. That'sthat's real, and we're gonna
Google this afterwards. Okay.But this is a real thing. The
(39:59):
the the fact that it's beingobserved changes it.
That is true of our experience.So rather than I'm in so much
pain and now I'm trying tochange it, if I can just observe
and be with, it already startsto change it. And it doesn't
mean that's why we should do it.But it's but we can't be with
(40:22):
something if we don't know it'sthere. So part of the being is,
okay.
So to this morning, I am ascared and uncertain man. I'm a
man who is experiencing fear anduncertainty. I'm also a man
who's experiencing hope andcontentment. You know? Like, all
(40:43):
of these things were true thismorning.
And so, okay, can I just be thatman? And I think the I think it
helps. The problem is it doesn'thelp in a quantifiable way where
I can't say, oh, I did that andI lost five pounds. Or I did
that and, you know, two of thesewrinkles went away. Or I did
that, you know, and I got threephone numbers for dates.
(41:03):
You know? It's like I did thatand I felt something shift. A
worthwhile thing shifted, Ibelieve.
Eric Bomyea (41:10):
That practice and what I heard you say during that
was, I am this, period. There isno story. It's not, I am sad
because X, Y, and Z, and this isthe power of the check-in
practice, is it is radicalpermission to just be. We do not
(41:31):
have to justify our experience.This is my experience.
This is who I am right now. Thisis my being.
Timothy Bish (41:39):
Well, the the the story is the story isn't always
blaming, but it almost alwaysdraws us out of the what is for
us. So if I if I'm like, oh, Ihave tightness in my shoulders
because I did shoulders today,it it still makes it about this
thing that happened in the pastor happened over there. You
(41:59):
know? And
Eric Bomyea (42:00):
The doing rather than the being.
Timothy Bish (42:02):
Right. And then but so with the check-in, if
it's like tightness in myshoulders and fatigue or
sadness, you're like, okay.Because the thing is, it doesn't
matter. You know, if you thinkabout, like, maybe you did
shoulders at the gym, maybe youhad to babysit for your for your
nephew and you had to pick theyou know, the the the why your
(42:25):
shoulders are tight doesn'tmatter. You're still having the
experience you're having, andit's about that.
So when we talk about being,well, what experience are you
having? And a lot of peoplecan't even tell you. And, you
know, I work with so manyclients, but, with acupuncture
and personal training inparticular, when I ask people
(42:47):
when when I ask men, how are youfeeling? It's very often fine.
And now it's actually become ajoke with some of my clients.
I'm like, I need you to say morethan fine. I need fine doesn't
say anything to me. And and Iand I'm encouraging them into
that into that conversationbecause because fine isn't a
feeling. Fine isn't a sensation.And then you realize, oh, we've
(43:10):
been conditioned.
Oh, I'm supposed to just sayit's fine. When in reality, you
might you might be feeling sore.And as a personal trainer, I
might wanna know aboutinformation. Yeah. You might be
feeling really tired.
Oh, maybe maybe I don't wannaweight load you so heavy right
now if if you're at a 90 onyour, you know, fatigue
percentage. But I would need youto be able to tell me that.
(43:33):
That's why this is such animportant like, the check-in is
such an important practice.Everyone should do it every day.
It doesn't take that long.
Eric Bomyea (43:41):
It doesn't take that long. And the the power of
recognizing who you are, howyou're doing in any given moment
without the need to justify, torationalize it, is so
liberating. It really is. Tojust say, I'm tired. That's it.
(44:02):
I'm experiencing fatigue. Or I'mhappy. The storytelling that
goes along with that, reallydoesn't For me, it just
invalidates. It invalidates thefeeling. Like, you're trying to
justify it.
Why do you need to justify it?Why does anyone need to justify
(44:22):
it? Just be. And that's I'm nottrying to say, it's that easy.
Timothy Bish (44:27):
I'm like, that sounds I'm
Eric Bomyea (44:28):
trying to, like, paint the picture of, like, it
can be that easy. It can be thateasy to be like, oh, chili
fingers. I don't have to gothrough and then, like,
criticize my body, shittycirculation because I smoked for
fifteen years. Right? Like, Ican just say, yes, chili
fingers.
Do I want to, like, warm myfingers up? Right? It's just how
(44:50):
I am. It's just who I am rightnow. I don't need to I don't
need to, like, go in the pastand, like, criticize myself, I
can use it as information.
Timothy Bish (44:59):
Sure. It's also empowering them when we think
about destructive behavior. Soif I can recognize if I can go
down the list of experiences, Ifeel angry. Okay. Well, why am I
angry?
Oh, I'm jealous. Why am Ijealous? Oh, that that person
(45:20):
didn't wanna hang out with me.Okay. What what why do I feel
jealous about oh, I don't feelchosen.
Oh, okay. So I I don't feelchosen. I feel abandoned in some
way. And now now I'm on an appsearching for something else.
(45:41):
And then if you can stop insteadof being reflexive, like, well,
I'm just on the app becausethat's what I always do.
And I you know? And yourecognize, oh, I'm on this app
because I feel lonely andunchosen, and I'm looking for
someone to make me feel chosenand less lonely, you might
reconsider that behavior. Thatdoes not mean, by the way, that
(46:02):
you shouldn't be unabs or that,you know, that behavior. You
know? But being conscious of,well, what am I what am I
actually looking for?
And is this what I'm wanting?And oftentimes, it's like, well,
when you recognize it, oh, Imight be able to give that to
myself or I might be able to getit in a healthier way, and then
I could make that choice when Iwanna go on the app because, oh,
(46:23):
I want to have a hookup. Okay.As opposed to I need to have a
hookup to make me feel less,abandoned or less less
invalidated, and therefore, I'mgonna do whatever it takes.
Eric Bomyea (46:36):
Try to seek that and get that externally.
Timothy Bish (46:39):
Right. And so that's one example because there
are so many. And I, you
Eric Bomyea (46:43):
know I just feel inclined. Like, I do, like, yes,
if you want to be on the apps,go on the apps. But I also want
to maybe just give peoplepermission as well that I made a
decision last year. It's beenalmost an entire year since I've
been on any of the dating appsbecause of that behavior. I
recognised what was happeninginside of me and how compulsive
(47:05):
it was.
I wasn't even looking. I wasjust going on blindly,
mindlessly. I'm like, why am Idoing this? Why do I keep doing
this? And I just wanted to givethat as a message to y'all that,
like, you do not need to be onthe apps to have a fulfilling
life.
Like like, if if you want to, gofor it. Do it. Have have the
(47:27):
fun. Do the do the interactionsin however you want to. I also
want to say, like, you can alsobe gay and not be on the the
apps.
Timothy Bish (47:35):
No. I think that I think that's I think that's
totally right. And I'vediscovered that oftentimes, I
would go on the apps to filltime, to feel to get a few
dopamine pings, you know, But Iwould often feel worse. Because
if I'm on and this is why wecome back to this recognizing
(47:55):
what's happening and thenallowing ourselves to be with
it. You're on the app lookingfor a thing that it can't really
give you.
And so when you when you walkaway from it, you haven't gotten
the thing you were looking for.And when you are unconscious of
what that thing is, then you'rejust like, well, I I I put the
(48:17):
app down. I don't feel I feelworse, but I don't know why. As
opposed to, oh, I was lookingfor someone to make me feel less
lonely.
Eric Bomyea (48:23):
Starts with us.
Timothy Bish (48:24):
Right. And then and so then we start to look
into our own feelings and ourown experiences. We start to be
with ourself first and foremost.And then we can recognize, well,
chances are if I wanna feel lesslonely, I probably need to call
someone that I think knows me.And, I mean, these are the
choices that I would make.
(48:45):
So I hear you. I don't think,you know, and then any behavior
that can be compulsive, we couldput into this example.
Absolutely. Because, like,
Eric Bomyea (48:55):
it full circle, it's the dopamine hit of
accomplishing something, doingsomething of like-
Timothy Bish (48:59):
Yeah. I got I got a like, I got a message, I got
an offer.
Eric Bomyea (49:02):
I crossed that thing off my checklist. Whatever
it might be, right, that hit.Yeah. And like, again
Timothy Bish (49:07):
I got a I got a drink. I got a hit. I got a
like, it can be any of thesethings. It's the motivation. Why
am, like, why am I doing that?
And and a lot of that is youprobably don't know if you
haven't been with yourself. AndI suspect for people who are
practicing this observation oftheir internal experience and
(49:28):
and trying to be with it, Itdoesn't mean that they might not
do any of these behaviors, butif they were to do it, I suspect
it would be much more conscious.I'm choosing to do this as
opposed to this is the
Eric Bomyea (49:42):
thing I always do. The power of choice and making
the conscious choice. Andsometimes that conscious choice
is I'm choosing to do nothing orI'm choosing to reduce the
amount of practice that I'mdoing and being able to
recognize that.
Timothy Bish (50:03):
So men's work, it's really about helping us to
connect to our full humanexperience. And, you know, one
of the cultural challenges thatmen have is not feeling like
they have permission to to feeltheir emotions. And so a lot of
the strategies then around thatis to suppress them, to ignore
(50:26):
them. And what we've learned isthat that doesn't that doesn't
make them go away. It just putsthem in a different form, and
then they come up.
They they surface in in otherways. They're not gone. And so
that's what this is. Thepractice of being with yourself
sometimes then means being, as Idescribed earlier, being with an
(50:49):
uncomfortable version of you.And the it might sound at first
to be like, well, what if I justdon't pay attention to it?
But that it's not gonna go away.So the truth is I'm going
through a divorce, and I have,over the last few months, been
feeling a lot of fear anduncertainty. Pretending that I'm
not feeling fearful anduncertain is not gonna make it
(51:10):
go away. I suspect it wouldactually make it worse. So would
I rather be sitting or would Irather my being be like, oh, I'm
just, like, really content andjoyful, and I feel I mean, yes.
And on those moments, I I I hopethat I remember to savor them.
But the practice is going toinclude being with yourself when
(51:32):
it is uncomfortable, and that'spart of the practice. And we go
back to the to the athlete orthe dancer. That's the moment
you went to the lesson or to thepractice or to the rehearsal
when you didn't want to. Fastforward to you won the gold
medal.
You are performing at the MetOpera. You know, whatever the
thing is, it's a necessary stepin that direction.
Eric Bomyea (51:54):
This has been really enlightening for me as
I've gone through a lot of thiswork and a lot of what we've
talked about today of thestriving, overachieving, why am
I doing certain things andreally wanting to offer to folks
(52:16):
that it can be of service. Itcan be of service to be
achieving something, especiallywhen the motivation is for
yourself. And then over time,just resting in the beingness of
yourself. I don't know. Do havea more elaborate way to wrap up
(52:40):
right now as my brain is feelinga little tingly and mushy?
Timothy Bish (52:44):
Well, like, what what are you being with? You're
being with tingling andmushiness?
Eric Bomyea (52:48):
Yeah. Like like a little dullness in the brain.
Timothy Bish (52:51):
Yeah. Yeah. So you're a man who's experiencing
some dullness right now. Yeah.Okay.
Well, you can be with that. Ithink that to me, feels deeply
connected to these universalteachings. That yogic teaching
of every posture or practice isa combination of effort and
grace to the Chinese teaching ofyin yang where everything that
(53:12):
exists has both of them, iscomprised of both of them. It
cannot be a 100% of one and zeroof the other. Right?
And so in our journey, we needto have the masculine, feminine,
the sun, the moon. We need tohave some doing, and we need to
have some being. So a fewtakeaways. First and foremost,
(53:35):
we live in a world that reallyprioritizes the doing. So then
maybe one of the things we needto do is to practice how to how
to be.
But we have to recognize thatthe nature of our world and the
nature of our human experienceand our life is going to be a
mix of these things. So get morein touch with being with
(53:58):
yourself, and then let thatbeing influence how and what you
are doing, and let themcommingle. So one of the images
that we use in men's work a lotwhen we talk about the masculine
and the feminine or the yin andthe yang is the river and its
(54:19):
banks. And when you think of ariver, most of the time when I
have this image, they're justtogether. Now imagine just
banks, an empty riverbed.
Okay? And now imagine a riverwith no banks. You're like, it's
just like sort of a chaoticflood. Right? They need to be
together, and I think it's thesame.
So when we think about being anddoing, we have to let them both
(54:43):
coexist. So for our purposes, weneed to invite more being
because we're super good atdoing. Men, in particular, are
good at doing. Queer men aregood at are good at hyper doing
to make up for, you know, allthe ways that they felt like
they weren't good enough. And socan we practice just being and
(55:07):
what's coming?
And by the way, I will keep youupdated because it is a
practice, and I would rather bedoing. I would rather you tell
me five push ups and five situps, and then and then I won't
be uncertain anymore. That wouldbe great, but that isn't how
it's gonna work. So I'm gonnakeep practicing, and I will keep
letting you know how it goes.But besides that, I'm feeling
(55:28):
complete.
Feelcom Alright. Let's, closeour eyes. Take a deep inhale.
Big, loud exhale. And it is withdeep appreciation and gratitude
for any insights, awarenesses,or understandings that we may
have gained in the sacred sharedspace that we now release the
archetypes and the spirits thatwe called in.
(55:49):
I wish everyone safety and loveas we leave. And with these
words are containers open, butnot broken. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
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