April 10, 2025 • 59 mins
Many men grow up feeling othered—whether due to cultural differences, personal identity, or societal expectations. This sense of disconnection can shape their emotional landscape, leading to shame, isolation, and a struggle to express their true selves. But what if those experiences could be transformed into a source of clarity, strength, and purpose?
In this episode of The Circle, we sit down with Alex Lehmann, Men’s Leadership Coach and host of The Heart of Man podcast, to explore the power of emotional literacy in reclaiming belonging and authenticity.
Through raw and insightful conversation, we uncover:
- Why so many men feel othered and how it impacts their self-identity
- How emotional suppression reinforces shame and disconnection
- The process of Emotional Alchemy—turning pain into power
- The role of vulnerability in building deeper relationships and true belonging
- Practical strategies for fostering emotional awareness and creating community
Join us as we challenge the narratives that keep men disconnected and explore how emotional depth can transform isolation into empowerment.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric Bomyea (00:05):
Welcome back to The Circle, where we go all in on
men's work, embodimentpractices, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. Ifyou haven't already, please be
sure to like, subscribe, andleave us a review. Today, we're
joined by Alex Lehman, host ofthe Heart of Man podcast and a
men's leadership coach dedicatedto helping men develop emotional
awareness and a deeper sense ofself. Together, we'll explore
(00:26):
what it's like to feel othered,how to give language to those
feelings, and learn about wayswe can transform the pain of
those experiences into clarity,strength, and purpose. Tim,
Alex, are you ready to go allin?
Timothy Bish (00:38):
I'm ready.
Eric Bomyea (00:41):
Alex, from what I understand, your journey has
shaped the work that you dotoday. Can you share a bit about
your story, especially thoseearly experiences when you felt
different and how that hasinfluenced your path?
Alex Lehmann (00:52):
It's interesting because I'm asking myself, where
do I go with this? Do I sharethe long version of it? Do I
share the short version of it?But I think what comes up for me
right now in this moment isessential teaching that guides
me by trauma specialist, GabarMate, which is we will
prioritize as childrenattachment over authenticity.
(01:13):
And I definitely saw that beingvery prevalent with me growing
up.
I grew up in an immigrant familyin Germany, and my parents
originally come from Russia. Andso, early on, I already noticed
there was differences. There wasdifferences in our behavior.
There was differences in termsof language that we were using.
(01:34):
There was difference in thenorms of what was okay and what
was not okay.
And so, when I would leave myfamilial household and go out in
the wide world, I would noticepeople are operating
differently. And within that, Inoticed the deep desire, and
(01:55):
again, this is not somethingthat is very conscious, but the
deep primal desire to belong.The deep primal desire to be
connected to the individuals infront of me. And so I noticed
already early on wanting tohide, wanting to mask the fact
that I grew up in an immigrantfamily. I wanted to tell
(02:15):
everyone I'm German.
I'm not actually originallycoming from a Russian
background. And so I already hadthese very early imprints from a
young age. Now one thing I mightwanna add here that I think
could be valuable for thelisteners, At 10 years of age,
(02:36):
my life changed radically fromone day to the other when we, as
an entire family, moved andimmigrated to Canada. And so I
was in a completely newenvironment where I didn't speak
the language, I didn't, again,understand the norms of culture
of society. And here I amcompletely on my moan, trying to
(03:01):
find a way to come into contact,come into connection with
individuals.
For me, the way I came intocontact, at least initially, was
non verbally. And for me, it wasthrough exercise, it was through
sports, team sportsparticularly. And so I noticed
early on already wanting toconnect, but I would argue
(03:22):
because of my differences,because I was coming from a
different country, people wouldreflect back to me very early on
as well already the differencesin me. I would be chastised. I
would be bullied.
I would be laughed at for beingGerman. Eventually, I would be
laughed at for my appearance.And so I already noticed in
(03:44):
there that self consciousnessbegan to kick in. Right? This
this strong attention towardsmyself, whereas in the past, it
was just something that was noteven thought of.
And so as the experiences that Ihad accumulated over and over
(04:06):
after time, I noticed moreattention being directed towards
me, which led to an increase andan accumulation of shame, and I
would argue internalized shameparticularly, which eventually
led me to isolate myself verydeeply.
Eric Bomyea (04:25):
The the first quote that you shared, attachment over
authenticity. So as I hear youtalk about the different ways in
which you started to maybe hideyourself or start to shift
chameleon in, in the attempt toattach, in an attempt to
connect, it really started torepress your authenticity, and
(04:45):
then you started to going intoshame. So did I understand you
correctly in kind of that?
Alex Lehmann (04:49):
That is absolutely it. Right? And I would say that
is I would argue that is theconditioning we all receive. We
subconsciously, covertly, orovertly receive messages around
this aspect of you is okay. Thisway of operating is okay.
That is not. We will praise youfor this. We will punish you for
that.
Timothy Bish (05:10):
Right. So this survival mechanism that we have
as humans as a communal speciesis that if we are not in the
group, we are vulnerable andalmost certainly going to die.
Right? So this concept of thedifference between fitting in
and belonging, and we've allheard this, right? The opposite
(05:32):
of belonging, Brene Brown,right?
The opposite of belonging isfitting in because belonging is
showing up as your full self,but fitting in is molding
yourself into what I think youneed me to be in order for me to
stay here. But I think I thinkmany people listening can relate
(05:52):
to that experience and this ideaof, well, we shouldn't we
shouldn't beat ourselves up forthat because it's our we're
trying to survive. We're tryingto to to not be other, to not be
beat up, to not be ostracized,to, like, to feel like we can be
here. So I think that we canrelate intensely to that idea of
I am willing to forego aspectsof myself so that I am not
(06:17):
isolated or othered.
Eric Bomyea (06:18):
Yeah. It starts to serve a purpose, but at what
effect long term? And I think,Alex, that's what you were about
to start talking about is, like,the long term effects of this
type of hiding of self.
Alex Lehmann (06:29):
Completely. Yeah. I I guess where I would like to
begin with this is sharing maybesome of the adaptive strategies
that I learned early on and theways that I sought to cope with
the the stress around, do Ibelong or do I not belong? I
think from an early age, Icultivated a depth of
(06:50):
sensitivity, and it's almostlike my environment demanded it
of me. So, I became very attunedto my environment.
I felt like I needed to be thecaretaker for other people's
experience, manage theiremotions, be the savior to some
regard as well. I became theperfectionist. So I sought to
(07:13):
make everything perfect becauseif I do well enough, then I
might not be ridiculed. I mightnot be shamed. I not might not
be chastised.
I sought to overachieve witheverything that I was doing. So
I was seeking to prove myself.And at the core of it, I wanted
to be validated and approved formy value, for my worth. I became
(07:34):
a nice guy. Right?
I sought to appease the people Iwas with and and make them
happy, however, at the expenseof myself. And I think this is
where the flaw was. So these arethe ways that this was showing
up.
Timothy Bish (07:53):
What I feel like I heard you saying just then were
all mechanisms for safety. Like,cultivating safety, but like,
I'll be safe if I'm good enoughthat you'll keep me. I'll be
safe if I Yes. Yeah. So it thelike, the it feels like the root
of what you just shared was I'mreally trying to keep myself
safe, and I'll do that by beingamazing, being super helpful.
(08:15):
And I mean, I just watched thething about highly sensitive
people who were, as children,very attuned, And they create
more mirror neurons in brain andnervous system because they are
like, I am looking to see whatyou need, be hyper aware of any
shift in you. And that can belike a superpower. It can also
(08:37):
be a real burden because thenAbsolutely. You are you are
easily overwhelmed becauseyou're like, I'm aware of
everything that's happening.
Eric Bomyea (08:44):
Right. In the beginning, it can be helpful
because it is a it is serving asafety. It is trying to keep you
safe. But like you just said,it's starting to have an impact
on the nervous system at thephysical level. If these neurons
are being increased incomparison to somebody that's
(09:06):
not going through thatexperience, that has to have
long term consequences.
Timothy Bish (09:09):
Oh, wait. Absolutely. Can I can I just
share something really quickly?I mean, I I spoke to this with a
yoga teacher. I have a real fearof well, I I have a dislike
Mhmm.
Of bugs. They're tricky. My butbut but here's the thing that
like, my nervous system is I canbe in a dark room watching TV
falling asleep, and I'll I'llI'll see something. I'll be
(09:33):
like, boom. And, like, I willnotice, like, the one bug in the
room.
Right? And my this yoga teacherthat I worked with, she was
like, yeah. It's not in my karmato see that. She doesn't notice
those things. And I was like,oh, it's a karmic thing.
Now I believe it's actually anervous system thing where I'm
like, oh, I was so hypervigilantbecause of things. And it sounds
like a similar situation withyou Yes. Customizing or creating
(09:55):
a hypervigilance that now I'mlike, well, the reason I see the
bug is because I'm alwayslooking for danger, and my
nervous system is now trained todo that. To this day, even
though I feel like I've relaxed,if there's a bug in the room, I
will almost certainly be thefirst one to see it, and I'm not
gonna love that.
Alex Lehmann (10:14):
I love that you both are bringing in the nervous
system, and I would argue Imean, there's different there's
various different modalitiesthat have shaped me, but I would
say nervous system work isdefinitely one of the more
foundational pieces to my work.And I would argue this is also
where everything begins. This isthe roots. This is the most
systemic work that we can do,and we have to as well consider
(10:36):
that the nervous system speaks avery different language that we
might speak consciously. Soconsciously, we are we might not
even be aware that we're seekingto be safe or that we're looking
out for danger.
But this is exactly what thenervous system is dialed in to
do. I mean, you know, formillennia, this has this system
(11:00):
has sought to keep us safe. Andso as a result, we will look out
for danger. Now the question is,is what I'm seeing as dangerous
a perception, a perceivedthreat, or is it actually a real
threat?
Eric Bomyea (11:16):
Exactly. Exactly. Is the is the bug in Tim's
bedroom out to get him?
Timothy Bish (11:22):
Well Or yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it goes to that
book, Why Zebras Don't GetUlcers. Right?
What is the threat? And myperception of that threat can
have an impact on how I dealwith it. But as you know, if I
perceive the rent payment, thework deadline, the tough
(11:44):
conversation with my partner,whatever, as a real threat, our
physiology will respond to it assuch, our nervous system, our
endocrine system. Like, so we itbecomes a practice. Would you
argue, like, we have to practiceworking with our nervous system
and our physiology when weencounter threat stress whether
it's real or not real.
Alex Lehmann (12:05):
Absolutely. And the question that as well arises
is, well, how do we work withour nervous systems to do so?
Would it be valuable to maybeshare some thoughts on that?
Timothy Bish (12:15):
So for a per for a person listening right now and
they like, oh, I want to beginworking with my nervous system.
I wanna start to gain sometools, but I've never done it.
Because, like, the three of us,we've all done, like, different
kinds of men's work and yogicwork and shamanic What would you
say to someone, oh, I'mlistening and, yeah, I wanna do
it. Well, where do I start?
Alex Lehmann (12:34):
I would say the foundational place to begin is
with the breath. Absolutely. Ijust wanna pause here and just
say that. So
Timothy Bish (12:42):
Wait. Should we pause and take a breath?
Alex Lehmann (12:45):
We can Let's take a deep inhale. Do that. Yeah.
Deep inhale. Exhale through themouth.
Beautiful. Yeah. So toning usingsound as well on the exhale is a
is a wonderful avenue to as wellaccess a regulating, relaxing
response to the nervous system.So there's various ways for us
(13:08):
to address a relaxation responsewithin the nervous system. One
could be breath.
One could be movement. One couldbe sound. One could be touch.
Cold exposure as well can beabsolutely wonderful to bring a
relaxation response within thebody. So those are some cues as
well just to watch out for.
(13:30):
But I think for anyone who mightnot be aware of such things, the
breath is one of thosefoundational ones. If and it it
also really depends on whereone's default is. Is one's
default more towards anxiety, oris it more towards apathy and
(13:51):
lethargy? So within that, myanswer will be nuanced, meaning
that if someone has a bit moreof an anxious default or more
dysregulated, Actually,truthfully, both states are
dysregulation. But if someoneexperienced more anxiousness, I
would focus more on regulatingbreath practices.
(14:13):
Meaning, the focus is gonna betowards the relaxation response,
focusing on extending those,elongating those. If someone
struggles with apathy andlethargy, I would focus a lot
more on the activation, theinhale response. Right? So I
think those are some cues that Iwould just wanna point out, but
(14:37):
I would argue working with apractitioner or working with
someone who has a foundationalunderstanding of the nervous
system is usually a great placeto be in.
Timothy Bish (14:48):
So just to summarize what you heard and
what I've what I've often said,I just wanna make sure that
we're in agreement here. Ifsomeone is activated, anxious,
stressed, and they're looking totry to calm that down, turn the
volume down, relax a little bit,you're gonna invite them to
extend their exhale. But ifsomeone is sluggish or low
(15:12):
energy, you're gonna invite themto accentuate or or or elongate
their inhale as a way. And thatthat's what I will tell people.
Like, if you if you wanna relax,longer exhales.
If you wanna wake up, longerinhales. Is that sort of what
you're saying?
Alex Lehmann (15:25):
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It can be quite simple as
such.
Timothy Bish (15:28):
Really, really simple and powerful. I think
that's the thing I wanna remindpeople who are listening. It
doesn't have to be supercomplicated. It doesn't have to
look like it's at the top of amountain. You don't have to have
a special outfit or crystalsaround you.
All of those things are great,and I and I have special outfits
and crystals, like,
Alex Lehmann (15:45):
you know
Timothy Bish (15:45):
but you don't need it. You can be in your car or on
the subway or on the bus, and ifyou're feeling anxious, start to
lengthen your exhale. If you'refeeling sluggish and you need to
activate, you can start tolengthen your inhale. You can do
this, and no one even has toknow you're doing it. Totally.
Alex Lehmann (15:58):
Yeah. Yeah. What I would also just wanna add as
well is, you know, I used toexperience a lot of chronic
anxiety, depressive tendencies.I experienced a lot of
internalized shame for myself,and so as a result, I
experienced low self esteem. Andin the aftermath, what I can now
say is that I was very muchejected from my body.
(16:21):
I was disassociated from mybody. I was not in contact with
my body. And so, as a result, Iwas not even aware of what's
present within my body. And so,the breath, and if we just focus
on the breath, if we can just aswell focus on the sensation of
the movement of air movingthrough our body, this is
already a doorway where we canbegin to bring our access back
(16:46):
to the body. And I would saythis is as well the place from
which I've as well experiencedmyself to really be able to work
with these responses.
You know, chronic anxiety issomething I experience
extensively, and I might stillhave episodes where I notice
(17:06):
fear arising, but because I havea depth of sensitivity now
towards my body, because I'vetrained myself to be in my body,
when those states arise, I canwork with that. You know? I can
maybe do a practice that allowsme to regulate in those moments.
If I notice I need a little bitmore activation, I observe that
within my body, and I can aswell bring myself into some form
(17:27):
of practice that allows me toactivate.
Timothy Bish (17:29):
You know, I'm really curious because I I love
what you just said. And I'mwondering, you talked about
shame and feeling othered andisolated and and having that
like, what do you think it isabout those experiences that
tend to take a person out oftheir own body or embodied
experience?
Alex Lehmann (17:48):
One definition of trauma that I really like is
anything that is too much, toofast, too soon. So one could as
well speak of it as extremestates of overwhelm, where we
were not able to come back intoa state of regulation. I think
(18:08):
our bodies are designed toexperience stress. So stress
itself is not a bad thing. Butthis challenge arises when we're
not able to come back into arelaxation response.
And this is where the nervoussystem registers, I was in a
threat response, and now I'mback. I'm safe. And especially
(18:30):
as children, we actually needthe guidance. We need the
direction of other individuals,our caregivers, our parents,
that can actually provide thatsafety response. We need to be
able to express the experiencesand the way an experience has
(18:51):
impacted us.
The unfortunate thing for manyindividuals is they are not
effectively held through suchexperiences. You know,
especially as men, we're as wellsocialized and conditioned
towards not sharing suchexperiences, meaning that we
never fully complete the cycle,the activation cycle.
Timothy Bish (19:12):
Right. We never where we never come back, like,
make it full circle. Is thatwhat I'm saying?
Alex Lehmann (19:17):
Yeah. Right. That's that's absolutely
correct. Right? And so thenervous system still registers
as if we're still in theresponse.
So anything that might besimilar to the same event that
led to that experience ofoverwhelm, If we feel the
slightest hint of that, it'salmost like we regress, we time
(19:40):
travel back to that first timethat this happened. And the
nervous system picks up. What isthe response that I learned in
that moment that kept me safe?And we will bring that response
back and seek to as wellgenerate an experience of safety
(20:01):
within that moment. Thatunfortunately is often not going
to be the most effectiveresponse.
It might not bring us actuallyinto the type of life that we
want to lead. So so just to makeit a little bit more concrete, I
learned to hide. I learned to bethe silent one. I learned to be
the obedient one. So when thingsfeel threatening to me, when
(20:24):
things felt threatening to me inthe past, I learned yes,
absolutely, just the way thatyour body kind of represented
it.
I stiffened up, I tightened up,and I tried to make myself
small. Whether it was through myphysiology, energetically, and I
didn't want to be seen, I wantedto be invisible. Right? So that
(20:45):
was great, perhaps, in thosemoments when I was young.
However, as an adult, it didn'treally lead me to be able to
live lead a life that I wantedto live.
And that was where the challengecame in for me.
Eric Bomyea (21:00):
When I was hearing you talk about just you saw my
body tense up. Just I was like,in that experience, was like,
okay, like, if I'm experiencingthis for myself, how am I going
to feel it in my body? And itwas exactly that. And so when
I'm in a state like that, I havea really hard time expressing
what's going on inside of me.And so now I want to figure out
(21:23):
a way to bridge the topic thatwe were discussing around
nervous system and how thattranslates into emotions and how
we can express those emotions orthrough a restricted nervous
system response, how we mightrepress our emotions and our
emotional expression.
Alex Lehmann (21:41):
Yeah. Beautiful. Is there a specific question
that you wanna lead, or wouldyou like me just to share my
perspective on that?
Eric Bomyea (21:47):
I would invite your perspective on on what you just
heard. Yeah.
Alex Lehmann (21:50):
Well, what I what I'm picking up on that so in
those moments when we aredysregulated, usually, we're in
a state of hyperarousal, andadrenaline, cortisol will shoot
into our system, which areactually numbing agents, meaning
that we won't actually feelcontact to our body. We won't
(22:11):
actually feel contact to thesensations, and as well the
emotions that we associate tothose sensations. So, the first
thing for me is really how can Ireturn back into a state of
safety within my body? So whenI'm able to return back into a
state of safety within my body,that's when I actually get to
feel my body again. And fromthere, I might be able to direct
(22:37):
my attention towards what arethe sensations that I'm feeling
within my body.
Right? So forget about feelingsand emotions for a moment,
because those areinterpretations of the
sensations that we're having.But let's just focus on what do
I notice? Maybe I notice sometightening within my belly.
Maybe I notice some warmth in myheart.
Maybe I'm noticing my shouldersare moving forward. Right? So
(23:01):
just bringing our attentiontowards that can be super
valuable. And even as wellwithin sessions with clients, I
then begin to ask certainquestions. Well, what is the
texture of that sensation thatyou're feeling within your body?
If that sensation had a voiceright now, what would it say?
(23:22):
You know? What kind of colorwould it have? What shape does
it have?
Timothy Bish (23:26):
You're really creating a vocabulary for a
person and their own and theirown body and their own physical
experience. That's what I
Alex Lehmann (23:33):
feel like That's absolutely it.
Timothy Bish (23:34):
Yeah. And Absolutely. Because there isn't
right or wrong. It isn't for thelisteners as far as I understand
it, it isn't as if anger has aprofile that will feel like
this. It's like anger for youand anger for me, like, can can
feel different.
We might give it differentcolors and different textures,
but we are invited into theexploration of it for ourselves.
(23:57):
And and I feel like that's whatI'm hearing you say. And I and I
I think it's so importantbecause understand what your
anger is or your or your joy oryour whatever and know that it
doesn't have to be anything inparticular except what it is for
you.
Eric Bomyea (24:11):
I want to go back to something that Alex said
though that really inspired mewas like before we even bring
emotions into it, before we evenbring anger into the
conversation, recognize what amI feeling? What's the sensation?
Before I then say, Oh, thatsensation is connected to anger.
Sure. Yeah.
Timothy Bish (24:31):
And then allowing people whatever it is they're
feeling.
Alex Lehmann (24:35):
Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (24:37):
And I love the idea of this giving vocabulary to
something, a practice that Ibrought into one of the sharing
circles and one of theembodiment circles in town was I
handed out a sheet. I was like,look, some of these men may not
have a vocabulary for what'sgoing on inside of their body.
And so we started at the somaticlevel and I connected it to the
(24:58):
elements. I said, Okay, take amoment and just where do you
feel or where do you sense earthin your body? Where is there
stability versus where mightthere be something shifting?
Is something rumbling withwater? Is there wetness? Is
there dryness? And just startingto give a little bit of clues to
(25:19):
folks to be able to say like,oh, okay, these are words that I
know. Right?
And now I can kind of startconnecting them because like I
can only speak from myexperience. Like I was 35 years
old before I even understoodthat there were more emotions
than happy and sad. I had moreways to insult people and call
people bad names than I didwords for my own bodily
(25:42):
sensations and emotions. Yeah.So just like being able to to
work with people and be like,hey.
What's the texture? What's thecolor?
Alex Lehmann (25:52):
Yeah. I love what you're saying because I would
argue a lot of men don't have acontext Mhmm. For sensations,
for feelings because we're justso early on conditioned that
it's not safe for us to feel.Right? It's not it's not okay
for us to feel.
Timothy Bish (26:07):
And there there have been religious teachings
where much of what is connectedto the body is dirty or
shameful. So this idea ofmindfully coming into the body,
I think is sometimesdiscouraged. So of course, don't
have a sense of my physicalitybecause it's inherently sinful.
(26:28):
I I mean, I don't believe that,but that that was the messaging
that I got. Well, like, oh,pooping is dirty.
Like, peeing is dirty. Sex isdirty. So many things are are,
like, kind of dirty and bad, andwe're not supposed to ever talk
about them. You're like, okay.Well, then what happens when I'm
having chronic digestivedistress because of my anxiety?
Can I talk about that? Becauseone of the symptoms might be
(26:49):
connected to these things we'vesaid are bad and you shouldn't
have and there's no there's youknow? So so it doesn't surprise
me at all then that we don'thave any real practice with
healing our body because we'vebeen told, well, your body's
kind of inherently bad. Most ofwhat it wants to do, you
shouldn't do. Yeah.
Alex Lehmann (27:09):
I I think this is a really good point as well that
you're making here, Tim, becauseI think a good place to begin is
for men as well to understandwhat is the value of this. Like,
why even bring our focus towardsthis? How does this as well
impact our lives? You know, Ithink a lot of men that I speak
to, they wanna understand theROI, the return of investment.
(27:32):
Right?
So I
Eric Bomyea (27:34):
would be one those men.
Alex Lehmann (27:36):
Likewise. Likewise. Right? So what I would
say the return of investment wasfor me is for me to bring more
attention towards my body, forme to become more emotionally
articulate. It supported meactually to lead my life in
empowering ways, and it would aswell bring attention towards
(28:00):
what I'm feeling, and so I canactually as well metabolize what
I'm feeling.
Just consider that we're kind oflike sponges, and, you know,
we're walking through our lives,we're walking through the day,
and we're impacted by ourexperiences. You know, and very
much like brushing our teeth, wealso need to tend to our
emotional hygiene. Now the issueis, you know, we're not taught
(28:23):
that this is actually a value.This is something that is
important for us to do. Now whatthe what happens when we don't
do that?
Our emotions our emotionalexpression, it accumulates over
time. We eject out of our bodiesbecause it's not safe to be in
our bodies anymore. We becomevery analytical. So we're much
in our kind of like cerebralcontext as a result of that. And
(28:48):
so within our system, within ournervous system, we won't
actually feel that sense ofsafety.
And so this is where we willactually experience chronic
states of anxiety. Mhmm. This iswhere the coping mechanisms
start kicking in. And I wouldargue, when we're coming from
these places, we're not actuallycoming from powerful places.
We're coming from propped upplaces.
(29:09):
And so for me, to show up in anempowered way is really about
addressing what's here,metabolizing what's here, so I
can really show up to thismoment in a clean way where I'm
not projecting my pastexperiences into what's here.
Eric Bomyea (29:30):
I back to the quote that you shared in the
beginning. It's moving fromattachment to authenticity.
Right? Like being back in yourbody, being back home, being
back as part of your fullexpression, full experience, and
the beauty that that can bringto the world and to others, to
yourself. It's such a gift tocome back home to yourself.
(29:54):
But it's hard. It's hard whenwe've had so many years of being
outside of our body, of being inthis state of I'm afraid, I
don't feel safe, and I have allthese coping mechanisms and I've
now just ejected, like you said.I love that I love that image
(30:15):
of, oh, something bad happened.Like, oh, the bug in the room
eject. Right?
Timothy Bish (30:20):
You know, I've had this experience. I feel like I
feel like honoring our authenticexperience is one of the ways
that we can move in thisdirection and start to heal. So
I have two stories for you. One,so I also had experienced
chronic anxiety. Little gayqueer boy keeping it closeted,
and I just had digestive like,my stomach would cramp and hurt
(30:41):
so badly.
And I remember one time I was inNew York City, and I got into a
cab. I was rushing home becauseI was in so so much pain. I got
into the cab, and I and I just,for the first time, kind of
screamed. I'm like, it justhurts so bad. Because I I was
like, I've been doing this fortwelve, fifteen years, and, you
know, and I'm embarrassed, and,you know, I'm rushing home in a
(31:04):
cab I can't afford, and, youknow, it hurts so bad.
And as soon as I said, it hurtsso bad, half of the pain
instantly disappeared. And Iremember sitting in the back of
the cab, and I was like, wait.What? Like you know? And I'm
like, oh, I just claimed partlike, so owning my authentic
experience, which is I'm in alot of pain because what I was
(31:25):
doing prior to then is trying topretend so no one knew.
So same same digestive issue andpretending like, I'm fine. I'm
fine. Nothing's wrong. Mhmm. Andit shifted.
And the same thing, the secondstory was when I auditioned for
my second Broadway show, and Ifinally had just had enough. And
I walked in to sing. I was like,you're never supposed to do
(31:48):
this, but I'm like, I'm justreally nervous, everybody. Mhmm.
I just told them.
I'm like I'm like, I'm justreally nervous. And then
immediately something shifted,and of course, they were all so
nice to me. And then I sang mysong. I probably sang it better
because I had said that eventhough you're not supposed to do
that. So if you are auditioningfor Broadway, do not tell them
you're nervous.
It's, like, not what they'reinterested in. But it worked for
(32:09):
me because it was my authenticlike, it was it was more
authentic than the thing I wastrying to pretend to be. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (32:15):
I love that. Thank you for sharing both of those
stories, very intimate andvulnerable stories, and I
appreciate both of those. Imean, just the acknowledgment of
them is really powerful andbeautiful, so thank you for
sharing. And I've actuallyreceived the opposite advice of
like, you said, if you're goingout for that audition, don't
tell people you're nervous. AndI've actually been told that
(32:37):
during interviews, I guess I'mjust going to talk from a
corporate America standpoint,that it's if you're giving a
presentation or you're in aninterview, acknowledge your
feelings, acknowledge yourexperience because it makes you
more relatable.
It's like, oh, this is a humanin front of me. And now all of a
sudden, the power dynamic thatmay have been at play, oh,
(32:57):
interviewee, interviewer, youhold the power. Now all of a
sudden, the the the field haskind of leveled by just me
expressing my internal field.Like, this is what's going on
inside of me and I want you tosee it. It's a very vulnerable
act.
And most people, they see that,are going to acknowledge it and
respect it. So I respect you,Tim, for letting us in.
Timothy Bish (33:18):
Yeah. I appreciate you. Appreciate you.
Alex Lehmann (33:23):
I I love what you both are sharing, and as well,
thank you as well for, you know,these two stories and these two
shares. And a few things arecoming up for me, which is, you
know, if I were just to ponderon the stories that you shared,
Tim, I consider how you mighthave moved from suppression,
repression, and avoidance ofthose feelings towards
(33:44):
expression. Yeah. And I thinkthis is something substantial
for a listener just as well toconsider. So where are we in a
state of suppression andrepression and avoidance?
And where can we, in safeenvironments, in environments
that feel safe to us, I thinkthat is the important caveat,
move towards expression. And itcan as well begin solely just
(34:07):
with ourselves. Right? So Ithink that is as as well a
foundational thing just to beginwith. I as well have a story on
that that I would love to share.
Please. Which yeah. So one thingthat is coming up for me as I
heard your story, Tim, is I usedto work as a paramedic. And it
was you it was probably at theheight of the anxiety that I
(34:30):
experienced, the depression Iexperienced, and as well the low
states of confidence. Iexperienced deep social anxiety.
For me, it was very confrontingto be in a room with strangers,
to be with individuals that Ididn't know. That was really
challenging for me. And earlyon, I learned to not express
(34:53):
what is there for me, because Ihad had experiences where
individuals use that against me.And I was chastised. I was
ridiculed.
Individuals that I trusted, youknow, where that eventually
ended up backfiring. And so Ilearned early on to hold such
(35:13):
experiences in. And within mywork as a paramedic, you know,
we would be working in pairs,and there was one coworker where
I felt a sense of safety comingfrom him. I'm not sure how
connected he was to this work,but I recognized as well that he
(35:35):
prioritized creating safetywithin his environment, and he
wanted to make people feel safe.And I remember on one shift
where he had just asked me, hey,man.
What's going on? You know? Like,what's what's happening for you?
Because it was quite obviousthat I was terrified. It was
(35:56):
quite obvious that I was goingthrough a lot.
My physiology was alreadyinforming everyone about this.
But what he was doing isproviding me a space where I
could share. And I didn't dothat initially. I first needed
to know from him, can I trustyou? When I felt that, I leaned
(36:17):
in, you know, and I just beganto blurt out my story, my
experiences.
And I recall still the way mybody would tremor when I did.
It's almost like I was releasingthe excess stress from those
moments of holding that in. AndI can only remember as well the
(36:43):
liberation, the freedom that Ifelt on the other side of that,
of being in an environment withsomeone that feels safe, where I
got to express that. And for me,that was the first time where I
understood the value ofexpression versus repression.
Timothy Bish (37:00):
Thank you so much for sharing that story with us.
I I feel like I could I imaginemyself sitting next to you and
having that experience. Itreally does bring up When we
think about men's work, onething we think about is the
safety of the container,creating conscious safe spaces
(37:25):
into which men can come andstart to experiment and play and
feel with expression. And so ifyou haven't been in one of these
spaces, you get to start to havethis experience. I think it's so
powerful when you can feel thatsafety is when you can really go
(37:45):
to that next level.
And then you also you know, I'vebeen fortunate enough to be in
spaces where men with moreexperience are modeling and
demonstrating for me kinds ofexpression maybe I'd I'd never
thought was available to me or Iwasn't allowed to have it or
wasn't appropriate. And so Ithink you're really talking
about an aspect of men's workthat is so valuable, which is we
(38:10):
can really only experiment andtry to express when we feel safe
to do it. If we don't feel safeenough, it's like that's
survival. I'm gonna prioritizeacceptance over authenticity.
I'm gonna prioritize, So back tothe very beginning
Eric Bomyea (38:30):
I'm ejected out of my body, and I'm only in my
head.
Timothy Bish (38:33):
Safety, safety, safety, which doesn't which
means, you know, I'm not gonnamaybe in this moment feel able
to try something new andvulnerable. So, I mean, what
would you say about since youjust spoke about safety, how how
you've seen it impact the menwith whom you work?
Alex Lehmann (38:51):
In in terms of them developing a sense of
safety through the work with me?
Timothy Bish (38:57):
Or, like, how safety, whether you're leading a
group or working with individualclients, has allowed men to
start to learn the the thevariety of expression that is
available to them and findingtheir own flavor in it.
Alex Lehmann (39:13):
It's it's just simply the foundational piece.
Right? There there has so thesafety gives individuals a
permission field.
Timothy Bish (39:20):
Permission field.
Alex Lehmann (39:21):
So that's, yeah, that's the word that really
stands out for me. So withoutthe safety, we actually don't
feel like we have thepermission. And permission is
not something that someone elsecan give us. It has to start
with us. So, we have to giveourselves the permission, but we
won't do that if we don'tactually feel the sense of
safety for it.
Right? So, think it beginsthere, and environment plays
(39:46):
such a critical role for that.Right? So, I think for anyone
who's listening in, who is atthe effect of all the
conditioning that there is thatthey've received, and as well
simply don't feel safe, mycuriosity to you is, what are
the environments? What are theplaces where you can go where
(40:07):
individuals might be speaking adifferent language, where
there's a different message thatis communicated, where, yeah,
your authentic expression isactually not just welcome, but
it's encouraged.
Timothy Bish (40:18):
Can I pause you there for a second? So one of
the missions of this podcast,especially in this moment, is
that, you know, there are queerpeople all over our country who
may not be feeling safe or seenor feel like they have
communities or resources, andthis podcast is hoping, aiming,
(40:39):
trying, choosing to be one ofthose things. So if you are a
queer person and you feel reallyisolated, can that safe space be
your bedroom with yourheadphones on listening to us?
Because we are here with you,and we want you to know that you
are not alone. And then I thinkthat exploration of what are the
(41:00):
places where you feel safe is soimportant.
When I was a kid, there wasnever a discussion of a felt
sense of safety. I think theadults in my life were just
like, well, you're safe becauseI kind of know that. But no one
was ever no one was ever askingme if I felt safe, and I often
(41:21):
didn't. And so bringing thatinto the conversation, think, is
really powerful.
Eric Bomyea (41:25):
Absolutely. And I think that that idea of somebody
from the outside maybeperceiving like, oh, your
physical environment is safe.There's not a wolf in your
bedroom. Like, you're safe. Butthey don't understand the
internal environment where thereare wolves attacking from all
directions.
Totally. That goes back to beingable to express the internal
(41:51):
experience out to the worldbecause what somebody might see
is like, oh, he's safe, he'sfine. But in reality, it's like,
well, that's not how I feel. AndI think creating environments in
which we can start to bring ourinternal environment external
out into the world, whether thatis somebody in their bedroom
(42:13):
listening to this podcast. Ihope this podcast helps you out
if you're listening.
I do too. Creating that safetyand ability to receive and then
also hopefully express inreturn.
Alex Lehmann (42:26):
It's beautiful.
Eric Bomyea (42:28):
So I'm feeling that we've covered a lot of ground.
And so I just want to do a quickcheck-in and to see if there's
anywhere that you all would liketo explore either new or a
little bit deeper before westart to wrap things up.
Timothy Bish (42:43):
Well, I think I want to go a little bit into how
how our felt sense, which Ithink we've talked about pretty
well, can translate intoemotional literacy. Okay. Let's
go there then.
Alex Lehmann (42:56):
Yeah. I love that. Is there I'm curious, Tim. Is
there a specific question aroundthat that you'd be interested in
exploring?
Timothy Bish (43:02):
I mean, I'm interested in we live in a
culture where it occurs to methat men were allowed only a few
emotions in a few particularcircumstances. And we are
learning now through men's workthat in order to engage fully
with your partners, with yourchildren, with your communities,
(43:23):
with your colleagues, a broaderunderstanding of your emotional
state and how it impacts you isreally powerful. So if I'm if
I'm a man who wants to step intothat powerful authentic
expression, but I I have existedin a world where I don't have a
context for that, how do we howdo we start doing that?
Alex Lehmann (43:45):
Yeah. It's such a great question. I think, first
of all, being in environmentswith individuals who might have
that emotional literacy isfoundational to begin with,
meaning that we need to have acontext for something that we
don't know about. Right? Wedon't know what we don't know.
(44:06):
So being in environments withindividuals who can bring
awareness to the things that wedon't know is absolutely
foundational. And I think aswell, giving us some form of
structure or some form ofdirection, some form of guidance
for us to start bringingawareness towards our bodies is
(44:32):
as well foundational. You know,I consider as well a teaching
from one of my teachers, EdwardDangerfield, a beautiful man,
beautiful friend of mine,beautiful mentor. And when I
went through his breath worktraining four years ago, he
guided us every day for threemonths through an exploration
(44:52):
of, you know, what in sometraditions is called the
medicine wheel, which is how amI feeling physically, how am I
feeling mentally, how am Ifeeling emotionally, and how am
I feeling spiritually? And itwas interesting for me how, on
day one, my capacity toarticulate my experience was
vastly different from the way Iexpressed my experience on day
(45:16):
90.
It was vastly different.
Eric Bomyea (45:19):
Through those ninety days, how did you learn?
Was it through others? Was itthrough like, did you have
printouts? Like, how were youable to start expanding your
vocabulary?
Alex Lehmann (45:31):
Well, I think it begins by a few things. So
presence and sensitivity. So Ithink those are things that I've
had to really amp up, and I hadto really increase my capacity
for both of those. Meaningeverything is already here
within the body. But we justgotta be what I had to learn is
(45:53):
to become more present and moresensitive towards that, what I'm
noticing.
Right? Absolutely. Havingvocabulary, you know, maybe I
mean, there's a I think there'sa beautiful diagram, you know,
that expresses, like, hundredsof different words for feelings.
Eric Bomyea (46:10):
The feelings wheel?
Alex Lehmann (46:11):
Yeah. Is that is that what it's called?
Eric Bomyea (46:13):
It is. I I actually brought one in for the sharing
circle. So I'm I'm big onprintouts. Yeah. Because I'm
like I'm like, these worked forme.
Right? Like, I've I've I've hadto make flashcards Mhmm. For my
emotions because, like, I justdidn't have the vocabulary.
Alex Lehmann (46:29):
That's a beautiful place to begin. Right? And so
especially for those individualswho simply don't have that
sensitivity yet, they can drawtheir awareness towards what is
my experience, and what is theword that points more most
closely to what it is that I'mfeeling. Yeah? And it's almost
(46:50):
like that what I'm thinking ofright now is the more you do
that, the more data you'rebeginning to collect.
And you're starting tounderstand the nuance between
this is what I experienced onday three, but on day seven, I
noticed a completely differentexperience. Right? And so over
time, we're starting tocultivate that in our library. I
(47:13):
think a beautiful practice thatI like to as well give my
clients, which I received fromChris Bail, was this idea that,
you know, set yourself alarms.Set yourself Post it notes
where, you know, every few hoursor so, you check-in that, you
know, maybe the alarm goes off,and then you ask yourself a few
(47:34):
questions.
So the questions I ask is, whatdo I feel in this moment? Where
do I feel it? Based on what I'mfeeling, what do I need? What's
the three questions?
Timothy Bish (47:45):
What do I no. That's so powerful. What do I
feel in this moment? Questionnumber one. Where do I feel it?
Meaning, where in your physicalor subtle body do you feel it?
Right? And then based on theanswer, what do I need?
Absolutely. Simple and powerful.
I'm gonna incorporate that.
Eric Bomyea (48:05):
And then we add in an additional layer of
vocabulary of needs andunderstanding human needs and
like, Okay, from physical safetyall the way up, it's like that
can be an entire another episodeor another conversation in my
opinion. Right? So I think it'sjust it's a really beautiful
practice that just keeps withthe intention of studying. And
(48:28):
this is where me as somebodythat was trapped in my head for
a very long time, needed thingsthat would help bridge the gap
from my thinking and the thingsthat I excelled out, was
academia and business and allthese things. I needed a bridge
to help get me into my body.
And part of that is likestudying, like studying
vocabulary, stuttering words sothat I then can be like, okay,
(48:51):
like, let me look at my wheel.Like, this this seems like it's
the most related thing to meright now, and if I don't
understand it, maybe I need tolook it up. Right? And I do the
same thing with like needsbecause there's also a needs
wheel that you can like lookaround the outside and be like,
what is it that I might beneeding? Like, when I'm talking
to my therapist, I'm in weeklytherapy because, you know, got a
(49:12):
lot of shits on back.
Like, that's my big struggle alot of times is like, don't know
how to express. I don't knowwhat I'm wanting. I don't know
what I'm needing, and I don'tknow what I'm feeling because I
don't have the words.
Timothy Bish (49:22):
So what I'm hearing you say, which I think
is really powerful, is theinvitation to if you are
starting to become curious aboutyour own emotional experience,
your emotions and how theyexpress, we it isn't a light
switch. Mhmm. It's not gonna gofrom zero to a hundred. It is
gonna be a practice. In the sameway so for all the people
listening, when you go to thegym and you you say, I want big
(49:45):
pecs.
I want big arms. You don't doone workout and think, then it's
over. It's a slow process. And Ithink what I'm hearing you both
talk about is this invitationinto an ongoing, ever deepening
journey so that there may be anemotion you are capable of
experiencing ninety days fromnow that you don't even know
(50:06):
exists right now Mhmm. Becauseof the journey and the
exploration and the allowancefor that.
And I think men really do needpermission to have that messy
journey of discovery, feeling athing and being allowed to call
it something, and then two weekslater realize, oh, it's actually
something subtle slightlydifferent because I had to sit
(50:27):
with it in Brussels and, like,put a name on it and then change
that name. You know, like,inviting people into, like, a
messy process in the in in thedirection of growth. And the the
image that's coming up for menow is gardening. Like, oh, you
you plant a garden. You getdirty when you plant a garden.
But later, there are tomatoes orpumpkins or whatever you're
(50:48):
growing. Or beautiful begonias.Or or or yellow roses, like,
whatever the thing is. But butthe process of making that
required that there was, like, alittle bit of messiness and dirt
dirtiness to it.
Alex Lehmann (51:00):
Yeah. Absolutely. And the thing I'm observing as
well, which kinda speaks to thechallenge, is I feel I observed
that a lot of men struggle withbeing with that messiness
because it reflects to someregard our incompetence and
maybe as well brings elements ofshame up around feeling like
we're not good enough, whichthen leads a man to kind of go
(51:24):
back to the same copingmechanisms that worked in the
past, because this is wherewe'll feel a sense of
competency. Right? And what wereally need, as you said, Tim,
in order for us to train a newway of being, we actually have
to practice it.
Mhmm. Right? We actually have tobe a beginner. We have to go
through the process of being anovice at something, to be
(51:46):
really bad at it, to suck at it,to humble ourselves
Eric Bomyea (51:51):
Humble.
Alex Lehmann (51:52):
And be okay with that process. Be okay without
being messy. I think thechallenge is not so much around
what to do. It's more around canwe stay consistent in
practicing.
Timothy Bish (52:05):
So how do you invite the men you work with
into the permission to be messy?
Alex Lehmann (52:12):
I I would often bring up the conversation around
shame because I think this isone of the obstacles that can
come up. Messiness will bring upthese these elements of shame.
And I think if there is oneemotion that I observed myself
having most challenges with anda lot of men having challenges
(52:33):
with is shame. And I would argueit's because there's been many
moments where we've experiencedjudgment, humiliation,
criticism. And as a result,we're either over identified
with our shame, where we'removing through the world in a
very apologetic way, or we'vemasked all the shame that we're
(52:56):
actually feeling, and we soughtto become very competent, and
we're almost propped up in sucha way that it it we're not even
aware that shame is present.
Mhmm. And for me, you know, andthis is as well goes into the
conversation around emotions andfeelings. It's about developing
a relationship to them,regardless of what feeling is
(53:19):
there, whether it's anger,whether it's sadness, whether
it's grief, whether it's shame,whether it's guilt. Just
recognizing that, you know,they're one flavor of the human
expression. There is some formof value that they have.
Otherwise, we wouldn'texperience it. There's value to
shame. Right? If I do something,yeah, it serves a purpose. If I
(53:43):
do something inappropriate, andyou guys call me out on that and
say, Alex, I didn't appreciatewhat you did.
I would want to feel shame aboutthat because it corrects my
moral compass. It will correctmy behavior. If I didn't
experience shame around that,like, this is where we're
getting into the danger aroundsociopathy, psychopathy. So we
(54:06):
would wanna feel shame aboutthat. The challenge is where we
internalize that shame.
Eric Bomyea (54:12):
And we hold it for far too long.
Timothy Bish (54:14):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Alex Lehmann (54:14):
Yeah. Brene Brown says this. Right? It it goes
beyond I did something bad to Iam bad. Mhmm.
So we personalize the experienceof shame. And I think this is
the challenge that so many menface that we have personalized
our shame. We've made it meansomething about us.
Timothy Bish (54:34):
I'm so glad that you're bringing it up because
shame is such a cornerstonechallenge for queer people.
Shame is the thing that talksabout the velvet rage. Shame is
a major factor that we have towrestle with and confront if we
want to move into ourauthenticity and full
(54:55):
expression. And it's also sadbut comforting to recognize a
lot of people are wrestling withthis. So if we can have places
and conversations like the onewe're having now, oh, well, we
can talk about our shame so thatwe're not also burdened by it.
We're not all suppressing ourtruth because of it. And
(55:15):
instead, maybe slowly but surelyBit by bit. Bit by bit, making
making our way closer and closerto being being free of that
shame by being able to look atit and recognizing I'm not
alone. I'm not alone in feelingthis shame. That person over
there who I love and respect andhave maybe idolized or put on a
(55:35):
pedestal, like, people that Ithink are incredible have also
had this experience.
And, therefore, we're allallowed, again, back to the
messiness. We're all allowed toget a little messy to figure out
and work through our shame inservice to our authentic
expression, happiness,
Eric Bomyea (55:52):
and joy. I'm feeling very connected and not
alone in this conversation bybeing with you two men and
hearing your stories and beingable to share my own stories and
allowing you to see a little bitmore of what's inside of me and
starting to see a little bit ofwhat's inside of you and what's
(56:14):
inside of you, it really doesstart to help me at least feel
connected. And I feel veryconnected right now. And I just
the invitation for everyone islike just let people in just a
little bit. Right?
Go to that audition and tellpeople you're nervous. If that
(56:35):
is your true sensation, ifthat's truly what's alive inside
of you, let people know what'salive inside of you and see what
happens.
Alex Lehmann (56:44):
I think what's alive for me that I would just
maybe like to share as well withthe listeners is having the
courage to be seen. I think thisis such a fear that if we truly
show ourselves, if we trulyreveal ourselves and our
experience, that we might not beaccepted for that. And what I
(57:09):
noticed in my experience isthrough continuing to hide my
experience, I actuallyperpetuated the feeling that
people don't matter that peopledon't really care, that I don't
matter, that I'm disconnected,that I'm all alone? And again, I
(57:30):
wanna emphasize, in environmentswhere you feel that sense of
safety, where you feel like theindividual in front of me can
hold my experience, I I trustthat. What if we allow
ourselves?
What if we give ourselves apermission field just to reveal
our experience slightly and seewhat happens? Can the person
(57:54):
meet me? Alright. I'm gonna givethem a little bit more. Oh,
they're meeting me even more.
Great. I'll bring a little bitmore. Right? So I think just
working, it doesn't have to bethis is me. In trauma therapy,
we often speak about titration.
Right? Going one foot into thediscomfort while having one foot
(58:16):
sourced in safety. So I thinkthis is really an encouragement
that I wanna bring to thelisteners. How can you lean into
that edge of discomfort aroundthe fear of perhaps revealing
and showing your experience tothose individuals that you might
trust? And see if you can leanin and notice how you feel on
the other side of that.
(58:36):
Generally, I felt more expanded.I felt more liberated. I felt
more connected. And see whathappens then.
Eric Bomyea (58:45):
Beautiful. Beautiful. I feel very complete.
Timothy Bish (58:48):
You feel complete? I feel complete.
Alex Lehmann (58:50):
Likewise. I appreciate you both.
Eric Bomyea (58:52):
Appreciate you too. Tim, will you take us out,
please?
Timothy Bish (58:54):
Well, let's close our eyes. Take a deep inhale
through the nose. Sighingthrough the mouth. And it is
with deep appreciation andgratitude for the insights, the
awarenesses, the understandings,and the connection that we
shared here that we now releasethe archetypes in the spirit.
(59:16):
And as we leave the circle, Iwish everyone safety, community,
brotherhood, and love.
And with these words, containeris open but not broken. Uh-huh.
Eric Bomyea (59:27):
Uh-huh.
Welcome back to The Circle, where we go all in on
men's work, embodimentpractices, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. Ifyou haven't already, please be
sure to like, subscribe, andleave us a review. Today, we're
joined by Alex Lehman, host ofthe Heart of Man podcast and a
men's leadership coach dedicatedto helping men develop emotional
awareness and a deeper sense ofself. Together, we'll explore
(00:26):
what it's like to feel othered,how to give language to those
feelings, and learn about wayswe can transform the pain of
those experiences into clarity,strength, and purpose. Tim,
Alex, are you ready to go allin?
Timothy Bish (00:38):
I'm ready.
Eric Bomyea (00:41):
Alex, from what I understand, your journey has
shaped the work that you dotoday. Can you share a bit about
your story, especially thoseearly experiences when you felt
different and how that hasinfluenced your path?
Alex Lehmann (00:52):
It's interesting because I'm asking myself, where
do I go with this? Do I sharethe long version of it? Do I
share the short version of it?But I think what comes up for me
right now in this moment isessential teaching that guides
me by trauma specialist, GabarMate, which is we will
prioritize as childrenattachment over authenticity.
(01:13):
And I definitely saw that beingvery prevalent with me growing
up.
I grew up in an immigrant familyin Germany, and my parents
originally come from Russia. Andso, early on, I already noticed
there was differences. There wasdifferences in our behavior.
There was differences in termsof language that we were using.
(01:34):
There was difference in thenorms of what was okay and what
was not okay.
And so, when I would leave myfamilial household and go out in
the wide world, I would noticepeople are operating
differently. And within that, Inoticed the deep desire, and
(01:55):
again, this is not somethingthat is very conscious, but the
deep primal desire to belong.The deep primal desire to be
connected to the individuals infront of me. And so I noticed
already early on wanting tohide, wanting to mask the fact
that I grew up in an immigrantfamily. I wanted to tell
(02:15):
everyone I'm German.
I'm not actually originallycoming from a Russian
background. And so I already hadthese very early imprints from a
young age. Now one thing I mightwanna add here that I think
could be valuable for thelisteners, At 10 years of age,
(02:36):
my life changed radically fromone day to the other when we, as
an entire family, moved andimmigrated to Canada. And so I
was in a completely newenvironment where I didn't speak
the language, I didn't, again,understand the norms of culture
of society. And here I amcompletely on my moan, trying to
(03:01):
find a way to come into contact,come into connection with
individuals.
For me, the way I came intocontact, at least initially, was
non verbally. And for me, it wasthrough exercise, it was through
sports, team sportsparticularly. And so I noticed
early on already wanting toconnect, but I would argue
(03:22):
because of my differences,because I was coming from a
different country, people wouldreflect back to me very early on
as well already the differencesin me. I would be chastised. I
would be bullied.
I would be laughed at for beingGerman. Eventually, I would be
laughed at for my appearance.And so I already noticed in
(03:44):
there that self consciousnessbegan to kick in. Right? This
this strong attention towardsmyself, whereas in the past, it
was just something that was noteven thought of.
And so as the experiences that Ihad accumulated over and over
(04:06):
after time, I noticed moreattention being directed towards
me, which led to an increase andan accumulation of shame, and I
would argue internalized shameparticularly, which eventually
led me to isolate myself verydeeply.
Eric Bomyea (04:25):
The the first quote that you shared, attachment over
authenticity. So as I hear youtalk about the different ways in
which you started to maybe hideyourself or start to shift
chameleon in, in the attempt toattach, in an attempt to
connect, it really started torepress your authenticity, and
(04:45):
then you started to going intoshame. So did I understand you
correctly in kind of that?
Alex Lehmann (04:49):
That is absolutely it. Right? And I would say that
is I would argue that is theconditioning we all receive. We
subconsciously, covertly, orovertly receive messages around
this aspect of you is okay. Thisway of operating is okay.
That is not. We will praise youfor this. We will punish you for
that.
Timothy Bish (05:10):
Right. So this survival mechanism that we have
as humans as a communal speciesis that if we are not in the
group, we are vulnerable andalmost certainly going to die.
Right? So this concept of thedifference between fitting in
and belonging, and we've allheard this, right? The opposite
(05:32):
of belonging, Brene Brown,right?
The opposite of belonging isfitting in because belonging is
showing up as your full self,but fitting in is molding
yourself into what I think youneed me to be in order for me to
stay here. But I think I thinkmany people listening can relate
(05:52):
to that experience and this ideaof, well, we shouldn't we
shouldn't beat ourselves up forthat because it's our we're
trying to survive. We're tryingto to to not be other, to not be
beat up, to not be ostracized,to, like, to feel like we can be
here. So I think that we canrelate intensely to that idea of
I am willing to forego aspectsof myself so that I am not
(06:17):
isolated or othered.
Eric Bomyea (06:18):
Yeah. It starts to serve a purpose, but at what
effect long term? And I think,Alex, that's what you were about
to start talking about is, like,the long term effects of this
type of hiding of self.
Alex Lehmann (06:29):
Completely. Yeah. I I guess where I would like to
begin with this is sharing maybesome of the adaptive strategies
that I learned early on and theways that I sought to cope with
the the stress around, do Ibelong or do I not belong? I
think from an early age, Icultivated a depth of
(06:50):
sensitivity, and it's almostlike my environment demanded it
of me. So, I became very attunedto my environment.
I felt like I needed to be thecaretaker for other people's
experience, manage theiremotions, be the savior to some
regard as well. I became theperfectionist. So I sought to
(07:13):
make everything perfect becauseif I do well enough, then I
might not be ridiculed. I mightnot be shamed. I not might not
be chastised.
I sought to overachieve witheverything that I was doing. So
I was seeking to prove myself.And at the core of it, I wanted
to be validated and approved formy value, for my worth. I became
(07:34):
a nice guy. Right?
I sought to appease the people Iwas with and and make them
happy, however, at the expenseof myself. And I think this is
where the flaw was. So these arethe ways that this was showing
up.
Timothy Bish (07:53):
What I feel like I heard you saying just then were
all mechanisms for safety. Like,cultivating safety, but like,
I'll be safe if I'm good enoughthat you'll keep me. I'll be
safe if I Yes. Yeah. So it thelike, the it feels like the root
of what you just shared was I'mreally trying to keep myself
safe, and I'll do that by beingamazing, being super helpful.
(08:15):
And I mean, I just watched thething about highly sensitive
people who were, as children,very attuned, And they create
more mirror neurons in brain andnervous system because they are
like, I am looking to see whatyou need, be hyper aware of any
shift in you. And that can belike a superpower. It can also
(08:37):
be a real burden because thenAbsolutely. You are you are
easily overwhelmed becauseyou're like, I'm aware of
everything that's happening.
Eric Bomyea (08:44):
Right. In the beginning, it can be helpful
because it is a it is serving asafety. It is trying to keep you
safe. But like you just said,it's starting to have an impact
on the nervous system at thephysical level. If these neurons
are being increased incomparison to somebody that's
(09:06):
not going through thatexperience, that has to have
long term consequences.
Timothy Bish (09:09):
Oh, wait. Absolutely. Can I can I just
share something really quickly?I mean, I I spoke to this with a
yoga teacher. I have a real fearof well, I I have a dislike
Mhmm.
Of bugs. They're tricky. My butbut but here's the thing that
like, my nervous system is I canbe in a dark room watching TV
falling asleep, and I'll I'llI'll see something. I'll be
(09:33):
like, boom. And, like, I willnotice, like, the one bug in the
room.
Right? And my this yoga teacherthat I worked with, she was
like, yeah. It's not in my karmato see that. She doesn't notice
those things. And I was like,oh, it's a karmic thing.
Now I believe it's actually anervous system thing where I'm
like, oh, I was so hypervigilantbecause of things. And it sounds
like a similar situation withyou Yes. Customizing or creating
(09:55):
a hypervigilance that now I'mlike, well, the reason I see the
bug is because I'm alwayslooking for danger, and my
nervous system is now trained todo that. To this day, even
though I feel like I've relaxed,if there's a bug in the room, I
will almost certainly be thefirst one to see it, and I'm not
gonna love that.
Alex Lehmann (10:14):
I love that you both are bringing in the nervous
system, and I would argue Imean, there's different there's
various different modalitiesthat have shaped me, but I would
say nervous system work isdefinitely one of the more
foundational pieces to my work.And I would argue this is also
where everything begins. This isthe roots. This is the most
systemic work that we can do,and we have to as well consider
(10:36):
that the nervous system speaks avery different language that we
might speak consciously. Soconsciously, we are we might not
even be aware that we're seekingto be safe or that we're looking
out for danger.
But this is exactly what thenervous system is dialed in to
do. I mean, you know, formillennia, this has this system
(11:00):
has sought to keep us safe. Andso as a result, we will look out
for danger. Now the question is,is what I'm seeing as dangerous
a perception, a perceivedthreat, or is it actually a real
threat?
Eric Bomyea (11:16):
Exactly. Exactly. Is the is the bug in Tim's
bedroom out to get him?
Timothy Bish (11:22):
Well Or yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it goes to that
book, Why Zebras Don't GetUlcers. Right?
What is the threat? And myperception of that threat can
have an impact on how I dealwith it. But as you know, if I
perceive the rent payment, thework deadline, the tough
(11:44):
conversation with my partner,whatever, as a real threat, our
physiology will respond to it assuch, our nervous system, our
endocrine system. Like, so we itbecomes a practice. Would you
argue, like, we have to practiceworking with our nervous system
and our physiology when weencounter threat stress whether
it's real or not real.
Alex Lehmann (12:05):
Absolutely. And the question that as well arises
is, well, how do we work withour nervous systems to do so?
Would it be valuable to maybeshare some thoughts on that?
Timothy Bish (12:15):
So for a per for a person listening right now and
they like, oh, I want to beginworking with my nervous system.
I wanna start to gain sometools, but I've never done it.
Because, like, the three of us,we've all done, like, different
kinds of men's work and yogicwork and shamanic What would you
say to someone, oh, I'mlistening and, yeah, I wanna do
it. Well, where do I start?
Alex Lehmann (12:34):
I would say the foundational place to begin is
with the breath. Absolutely. Ijust wanna pause here and just
say that. So
Timothy Bish (12:42):
Wait. Should we pause and take a breath?
Alex Lehmann (12:45):
We can Let's take a deep inhale. Do that. Yeah.
Deep inhale. Exhale through themouth.
Beautiful. Yeah. So toning usingsound as well on the exhale is a
is a wonderful avenue to as wellaccess a regulating, relaxing
response to the nervous system.So there's various ways for us
(13:08):
to address a relaxation responsewithin the nervous system. One
could be breath.
One could be movement. One couldbe sound. One could be touch.
Cold exposure as well can beabsolutely wonderful to bring a
relaxation response within thebody. So those are some cues as
well just to watch out for.
(13:30):
But I think for anyone who mightnot be aware of such things, the
breath is one of thosefoundational ones. If and it it
also really depends on whereone's default is. Is one's
default more towards anxiety, oris it more towards apathy and
(13:51):
lethargy? So within that, myanswer will be nuanced, meaning
that if someone has a bit moreof an anxious default or more
dysregulated, Actually,truthfully, both states are
dysregulation. But if someoneexperienced more anxiousness, I
would focus more on regulatingbreath practices.
(14:13):
Meaning, the focus is gonna betowards the relaxation response,
focusing on extending those,elongating those. If someone
struggles with apathy andlethargy, I would focus a lot
more on the activation, theinhale response. Right? So I
think those are some cues that Iwould just wanna point out, but
(14:37):
I would argue working with apractitioner or working with
someone who has a foundationalunderstanding of the nervous
system is usually a great placeto be in.
Timothy Bish (14:48):
So just to summarize what you heard and
what I've what I've often said,I just wanna make sure that
we're in agreement here. Ifsomeone is activated, anxious,
stressed, and they're looking totry to calm that down, turn the
volume down, relax a little bit,you're gonna invite them to
extend their exhale. But ifsomeone is sluggish or low
(15:12):
energy, you're gonna invite themto accentuate or or or elongate
their inhale as a way. And thatthat's what I will tell people.
Like, if you if you wanna relax,longer exhales.
If you wanna wake up, longerinhales. Is that sort of what
you're saying?
Alex Lehmann (15:25):
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It can be quite simple as
such.
Timothy Bish (15:28):
Really, really simple and powerful. I think
that's the thing I wanna remindpeople who are listening. It
doesn't have to be supercomplicated. It doesn't have to
look like it's at the top of amountain. You don't have to have
a special outfit or crystalsaround you.
All of those things are great,and I and I have special outfits
and crystals, like,
Alex Lehmann (15:45):
you know
Timothy Bish (15:45):
but you don't need it. You can be in your car or on
the subway or on the bus, and ifyou're feeling anxious, start to
lengthen your exhale. If you'refeeling sluggish and you need to
activate, you can start tolengthen your inhale. You can do
this, and no one even has toknow you're doing it. Totally.
Alex Lehmann (15:58):
Yeah. Yeah. What I would also just wanna add as
well is, you know, I used toexperience a lot of chronic
anxiety, depressive tendencies.I experienced a lot of
internalized shame for myself,and so as a result, I
experienced low self esteem. Andin the aftermath, what I can now
say is that I was very muchejected from my body.
(16:21):
I was disassociated from mybody. I was not in contact with
my body. And so, as a result, Iwas not even aware of what's
present within my body. And so,the breath, and if we just focus
on the breath, if we can just aswell focus on the sensation of
the movement of air movingthrough our body, this is
already a doorway where we canbegin to bring our access back
(16:46):
to the body. And I would saythis is as well the place from
which I've as well experiencedmyself to really be able to work
with these responses.
You know, chronic anxiety issomething I experience
extensively, and I might stillhave episodes where I notice
(17:06):
fear arising, but because I havea depth of sensitivity now
towards my body, because I'vetrained myself to be in my body,
when those states arise, I canwork with that. You know? I can
maybe do a practice that allowsme to regulate in those moments.
If I notice I need a little bitmore activation, I observe that
within my body, and I can aswell bring myself into some form
(17:27):
of practice that allows me toactivate.
Timothy Bish (17:29):
You know, I'm really curious because I I love
what you just said. And I'mwondering, you talked about
shame and feeling othered andisolated and and having that
like, what do you think it isabout those experiences that
tend to take a person out oftheir own body or embodied
experience?
Alex Lehmann (17:48):
One definition of trauma that I really like is
anything that is too much, toofast, too soon. So one could as
well speak of it as extremestates of overwhelm, where we
were not able to come back intoa state of regulation. I think
(18:08):
our bodies are designed toexperience stress. So stress
itself is not a bad thing. Butthis challenge arises when we're
not able to come back into arelaxation response.
And this is where the nervoussystem registers, I was in a
threat response, and now I'mback. I'm safe. And especially
(18:30):
as children, we actually needthe guidance. We need the
direction of other individuals,our caregivers, our parents,
that can actually provide thatsafety response. We need to be
able to express the experiencesand the way an experience has
(18:51):
impacted us.
The unfortunate thing for manyindividuals is they are not
effectively held through suchexperiences. You know,
especially as men, we're as wellsocialized and conditioned
towards not sharing suchexperiences, meaning that we
never fully complete the cycle,the activation cycle.
Timothy Bish (19:12):
Right. We never where we never come back, like,
make it full circle. Is thatwhat I'm saying?
Alex Lehmann (19:17):
Yeah. Right. That's that's absolutely
correct. Right? And so thenervous system still registers
as if we're still in theresponse.
So anything that might besimilar to the same event that
led to that experience ofoverwhelm, If we feel the
slightest hint of that, it'salmost like we regress, we time
(19:40):
travel back to that first timethat this happened. And the
nervous system picks up. What isthe response that I learned in
that moment that kept me safe?And we will bring that response
back and seek to as wellgenerate an experience of safety
(20:01):
within that moment. Thatunfortunately is often not going
to be the most effectiveresponse.
It might not bring us actuallyinto the type of life that we
want to lead. So so just to makeit a little bit more concrete, I
learned to hide. I learned to bethe silent one. I learned to be
the obedient one. So when thingsfeel threatening to me, when
(20:24):
things felt threatening to me inthe past, I learned yes,
absolutely, just the way thatyour body kind of represented
it.
I stiffened up, I tightened up,and I tried to make myself
small. Whether it was through myphysiology, energetically, and I
didn't want to be seen, I wantedto be invisible. Right? So that
(20:45):
was great, perhaps, in thosemoments when I was young.
However, as an adult, it didn'treally lead me to be able to
live lead a life that I wantedto live.
And that was where the challengecame in for me.
Eric Bomyea (21:00):
When I was hearing you talk about just you saw my
body tense up. Just I was like,in that experience, was like,
okay, like, if I'm experiencingthis for myself, how am I going
to feel it in my body? And itwas exactly that. And so when
I'm in a state like that, I havea really hard time expressing
what's going on inside of me.And so now I want to figure out
(21:23):
a way to bridge the topic thatwe were discussing around
nervous system and how thattranslates into emotions and how
we can express those emotions orthrough a restricted nervous
system response, how we mightrepress our emotions and our
emotional expression.
Alex Lehmann (21:41):
Yeah. Beautiful. Is there a specific question
that you wanna lead, or wouldyou like me just to share my
perspective on that?
Eric Bomyea (21:47):
I would invite your perspective on on what you just
heard. Yeah.
Alex Lehmann (21:50):
Well, what I what I'm picking up on that so in
those moments when we aredysregulated, usually, we're in
a state of hyperarousal, andadrenaline, cortisol will shoot
into our system, which areactually numbing agents, meaning
that we won't actually feelcontact to our body. We won't
(22:11):
actually feel contact to thesensations, and as well the
emotions that we associate tothose sensations. So, the first
thing for me is really how can Ireturn back into a state of
safety within my body? So whenI'm able to return back into a
state of safety within my body,that's when I actually get to
feel my body again. And fromthere, I might be able to direct
(22:37):
my attention towards what arethe sensations that I'm feeling
within my body.
Right? So forget about feelingsand emotions for a moment,
because those areinterpretations of the
sensations that we're having.But let's just focus on what do
I notice? Maybe I notice sometightening within my belly.
Maybe I notice some warmth in myheart.
Maybe I'm noticing my shouldersare moving forward. Right? So
(23:01):
just bringing our attentiontowards that can be super
valuable. And even as wellwithin sessions with clients, I
then begin to ask certainquestions. Well, what is the
texture of that sensation thatyou're feeling within your body?
If that sensation had a voiceright now, what would it say?
(23:22):
You know? What kind of colorwould it have? What shape does
it have?
Timothy Bish (23:26):
You're really creating a vocabulary for a
person and their own and theirown body and their own physical
experience. That's what I
Alex Lehmann (23:33):
feel like That's absolutely it.
Timothy Bish (23:34):
Yeah. And Absolutely. Because there isn't
right or wrong. It isn't for thelisteners as far as I understand
it, it isn't as if anger has aprofile that will feel like
this. It's like anger for youand anger for me, like, can can
feel different.
We might give it differentcolors and different textures,
but we are invited into theexploration of it for ourselves.
(23:57):
And and I feel like that's whatI'm hearing you say. And I and I
I think it's so importantbecause understand what your
anger is or your or your joy oryour whatever and know that it
doesn't have to be anything inparticular except what it is for
you.
Eric Bomyea (24:11):
I want to go back to something that Alex said
though that really inspired mewas like before we even bring
emotions into it, before we evenbring anger into the
conversation, recognize what amI feeling? What's the sensation?
Before I then say, Oh, thatsensation is connected to anger.
Sure. Yeah.
Timothy Bish (24:31):
And then allowing people whatever it is they're
feeling.
Alex Lehmann (24:35):
Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (24:37):
And I love the idea of this giving vocabulary to
something, a practice that Ibrought into one of the sharing
circles and one of theembodiment circles in town was I
handed out a sheet. I was like,look, some of these men may not
have a vocabulary for what'sgoing on inside of their body.
And so we started at the somaticlevel and I connected it to the
(24:58):
elements. I said, Okay, take amoment and just where do you
feel or where do you sense earthin your body? Where is there
stability versus where mightthere be something shifting?
Is something rumbling withwater? Is there wetness? Is
there dryness? And just startingto give a little bit of clues to
(25:19):
folks to be able to say like,oh, okay, these are words that I
know. Right?
And now I can kind of startconnecting them because like I
can only speak from myexperience. Like I was 35 years
old before I even understoodthat there were more emotions
than happy and sad. I had moreways to insult people and call
people bad names than I didwords for my own bodily
(25:42):
sensations and emotions. Yeah.So just like being able to to
work with people and be like,hey.
What's the texture? What's thecolor?
Alex Lehmann (25:52):
Yeah. I love what you're saying because I would
argue a lot of men don't have acontext Mhmm. For sensations,
for feelings because we're justso early on conditioned that
it's not safe for us to feel.Right? It's not it's not okay
for us to feel.
Timothy Bish (26:07):
And there there have been religious teachings
where much of what is connectedto the body is dirty or
shameful. So this idea ofmindfully coming into the body,
I think is sometimesdiscouraged. So of course, don't
have a sense of my physicalitybecause it's inherently sinful.
(26:28):
I I mean, I don't believe that,but that that was the messaging
that I got. Well, like, oh,pooping is dirty.
Like, peeing is dirty. Sex isdirty. So many things are are,
like, kind of dirty and bad, andwe're not supposed to ever talk
about them. You're like, okay.Well, then what happens when I'm
having chronic digestivedistress because of my anxiety?
Can I talk about that? Becauseone of the symptoms might be
(26:49):
connected to these things we'vesaid are bad and you shouldn't
have and there's no there's youknow? So so it doesn't surprise
me at all then that we don'thave any real practice with
healing our body because we'vebeen told, well, your body's
kind of inherently bad. Most ofwhat it wants to do, you
shouldn't do. Yeah.
Alex Lehmann (27:09):
I I think this is a really good point as well that
you're making here, Tim, becauseI think a good place to begin is
for men as well to understandwhat is the value of this. Like,
why even bring our focus towardsthis? How does this as well
impact our lives? You know, Ithink a lot of men that I speak
to, they wanna understand theROI, the return of investment.
(27:32):
Right?
So I
Eric Bomyea (27:34):
would be one those men.
Alex Lehmann (27:36):
Likewise. Likewise. Right? So what I would
say the return of investment wasfor me is for me to bring more
attention towards my body, forme to become more emotionally
articulate. It supported meactually to lead my life in
empowering ways, and it would aswell bring attention towards
(28:00):
what I'm feeling, and so I canactually as well metabolize what
I'm feeling.
Just consider that we're kind oflike sponges, and, you know,
we're walking through our lives,we're walking through the day,
and we're impacted by ourexperiences. You know, and very
much like brushing our teeth, wealso need to tend to our
emotional hygiene. Now the issueis, you know, we're not taught
(28:23):
that this is actually a value.This is something that is
important for us to do. Now whatthe what happens when we don't
do that?
Our emotions our emotionalexpression, it accumulates over
time. We eject out of our bodiesbecause it's not safe to be in
our bodies anymore. We becomevery analytical. So we're much
in our kind of like cerebralcontext as a result of that. And
(28:48):
so within our system, within ournervous system, we won't
actually feel that sense ofsafety.
And so this is where we willactually experience chronic
states of anxiety. Mhmm. This iswhere the coping mechanisms
start kicking in. And I wouldargue, when we're coming from
these places, we're not actuallycoming from powerful places.
We're coming from propped upplaces.
(29:09):
And so for me, to show up in anempowered way is really about
addressing what's here,metabolizing what's here, so I
can really show up to thismoment in a clean way where I'm
not projecting my pastexperiences into what's here.
Eric Bomyea (29:30):
I back to the quote that you shared in the
beginning. It's moving fromattachment to authenticity.
Right? Like being back in yourbody, being back home, being
back as part of your fullexpression, full experience, and
the beauty that that can bringto the world and to others, to
yourself. It's such a gift tocome back home to yourself.
(29:54):
But it's hard. It's hard whenwe've had so many years of being
outside of our body, of being inthis state of I'm afraid, I
don't feel safe, and I have allthese coping mechanisms and I've
now just ejected, like you said.I love that I love that image
(30:15):
of, oh, something bad happened.Like, oh, the bug in the room
eject. Right?
Timothy Bish (30:20):
You know, I've had this experience. I feel like I
feel like honoring our authenticexperience is one of the ways
that we can move in thisdirection and start to heal. So
I have two stories for you. One,so I also had experienced
chronic anxiety. Little gayqueer boy keeping it closeted,
and I just had digestive like,my stomach would cramp and hurt
(30:41):
so badly.
And I remember one time I was inNew York City, and I got into a
cab. I was rushing home becauseI was in so so much pain. I got
into the cab, and I and I just,for the first time, kind of
screamed. I'm like, it justhurts so bad. Because I I was
like, I've been doing this fortwelve, fifteen years, and, you
know, and I'm embarrassed, and,you know, I'm rushing home in a
(31:04):
cab I can't afford, and, youknow, it hurts so bad.
And as soon as I said, it hurtsso bad, half of the pain
instantly disappeared. And Iremember sitting in the back of
the cab, and I was like, wait.What? Like you know? And I'm
like, oh, I just claimed partlike, so owning my authentic
experience, which is I'm in alot of pain because what I was
(31:25):
doing prior to then is trying topretend so no one knew.
So same same digestive issue andpretending like, I'm fine. I'm
fine. Nothing's wrong. Mhmm. Andit shifted.
And the same thing, the secondstory was when I auditioned for
my second Broadway show, and Ifinally had just had enough. And
I walked in to sing. I was like,you're never supposed to do
(31:48):
this, but I'm like, I'm justreally nervous, everybody. Mhmm.
I just told them.
I'm like I'm like, I'm justreally nervous. And then
immediately something shifted,and of course, they were all so
nice to me. And then I sang mysong. I probably sang it better
because I had said that eventhough you're not supposed to do
that. So if you are auditioningfor Broadway, do not tell them
you're nervous.
It's, like, not what they'reinterested in. But it worked for
(32:09):
me because it was my authenticlike, it was it was more
authentic than the thing I wastrying to pretend to be. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (32:15):
I love that. Thank you for sharing both of those
stories, very intimate andvulnerable stories, and I
appreciate both of those. Imean, just the acknowledgment of
them is really powerful andbeautiful, so thank you for
sharing. And I've actuallyreceived the opposite advice of
like, you said, if you're goingout for that audition, don't
tell people you're nervous. AndI've actually been told that
(32:37):
during interviews, I guess I'mjust going to talk from a
corporate America standpoint,that it's if you're giving a
presentation or you're in aninterview, acknowledge your
feelings, acknowledge yourexperience because it makes you
more relatable.
It's like, oh, this is a humanin front of me. And now all of a
sudden, the power dynamic thatmay have been at play, oh,
(32:57):
interviewee, interviewer, youhold the power. Now all of a
sudden, the the the field haskind of leveled by just me
expressing my internal field.Like, this is what's going on
inside of me and I want you tosee it. It's a very vulnerable
act.
And most people, they see that,are going to acknowledge it and
respect it. So I respect you,Tim, for letting us in.
Timothy Bish (33:18):
Yeah. I appreciate you. Appreciate you.
Alex Lehmann (33:23):
I I love what you both are sharing, and as well,
thank you as well for, you know,these two stories and these two
shares. And a few things arecoming up for me, which is, you
know, if I were just to ponderon the stories that you shared,
Tim, I consider how you mighthave moved from suppression,
repression, and avoidance ofthose feelings towards
(33:44):
expression. Yeah. And I thinkthis is something substantial
for a listener just as well toconsider. So where are we in a
state of suppression andrepression and avoidance?
And where can we, in safeenvironments, in environments
that feel safe to us, I thinkthat is the important caveat,
move towards expression. And itcan as well begin solely just
(34:07):
with ourselves. Right? So Ithink that is as as well a
foundational thing just to beginwith. I as well have a story on
that that I would love to share.
Please. Which yeah. So one thingthat is coming up for me as I
heard your story, Tim, is I usedto work as a paramedic. And it
was you it was probably at theheight of the anxiety that I
(34:30):
experienced, the depression Iexperienced, and as well the low
states of confidence. Iexperienced deep social anxiety.
For me, it was very confrontingto be in a room with strangers,
to be with individuals that Ididn't know. That was really
challenging for me. And earlyon, I learned to not express
(34:53):
what is there for me, because Ihad had experiences where
individuals use that against me.And I was chastised. I was
ridiculed.
Individuals that I trusted, youknow, where that eventually
ended up backfiring. And so Ilearned early on to hold such
(35:13):
experiences in. And within mywork as a paramedic, you know,
we would be working in pairs,and there was one coworker where
I felt a sense of safety comingfrom him. I'm not sure how
connected he was to this work,but I recognized as well that he
(35:35):
prioritized creating safetywithin his environment, and he
wanted to make people feel safe.And I remember on one shift
where he had just asked me, hey,man.
What's going on? You know? Like,what's what's happening for you?
Because it was quite obviousthat I was terrified. It was
(35:56):
quite obvious that I was goingthrough a lot.
My physiology was alreadyinforming everyone about this.
But what he was doing isproviding me a space where I
could share. And I didn't dothat initially. I first needed
to know from him, can I trustyou? When I felt that, I leaned
(36:17):
in, you know, and I just beganto blurt out my story, my
experiences.
And I recall still the way mybody would tremor when I did.
It's almost like I was releasingthe excess stress from those
moments of holding that in. AndI can only remember as well the
(36:43):
liberation, the freedom that Ifelt on the other side of that,
of being in an environment withsomeone that feels safe, where I
got to express that. And for me,that was the first time where I
understood the value ofexpression versus repression.
Timothy Bish (37:00):
Thank you so much for sharing that story with us.
I I feel like I could I imaginemyself sitting next to you and
having that experience. Itreally does bring up When we
think about men's work, onething we think about is the
safety of the container,creating conscious safe spaces
(37:25):
into which men can come andstart to experiment and play and
feel with expression. And so ifyou haven't been in one of these
spaces, you get to start to havethis experience. I think it's so
powerful when you can feel thatsafety is when you can really go
(37:45):
to that next level.
And then you also you know, I'vebeen fortunate enough to be in
spaces where men with moreexperience are modeling and
demonstrating for me kinds ofexpression maybe I'd I'd never
thought was available to me or Iwasn't allowed to have it or
wasn't appropriate. And so Ithink you're really talking
about an aspect of men's workthat is so valuable, which is we
(38:10):
can really only experiment andtry to express when we feel safe
to do it. If we don't feel safeenough, it's like that's
survival. I'm gonna prioritizeacceptance over authenticity.
I'm gonna prioritize, So back tothe very beginning
Eric Bomyea (38:30):
I'm ejected out of my body, and I'm only in my
head.
Timothy Bish (38:33):
Safety, safety, safety, which doesn't which
means, you know, I'm not gonnamaybe in this moment feel able
to try something new andvulnerable. So, I mean, what
would you say about since youjust spoke about safety, how how
you've seen it impact the menwith whom you work?
Alex Lehmann (38:51):
In in terms of them developing a sense of
safety through the work with me?
Timothy Bish (38:57):
Or, like, how safety, whether you're leading a
group or working with individualclients, has allowed men to
start to learn the the thevariety of expression that is
available to them and findingtheir own flavor in it.
Alex Lehmann (39:13):
It's it's just simply the foundational piece.
Right? There there has so thesafety gives individuals a
permission field.
Timothy Bish (39:20):
Permission field.
Alex Lehmann (39:21):
So that's, yeah, that's the word that really
stands out for me. So withoutthe safety, we actually don't
feel like we have thepermission. And permission is
not something that someone elsecan give us. It has to start
with us. So, we have to giveourselves the permission, but we
won't do that if we don'tactually feel the sense of
safety for it.
Right? So, think it beginsthere, and environment plays
(39:46):
such a critical role for that.Right? So, I think for anyone
who's listening in, who is atthe effect of all the
conditioning that there is thatthey've received, and as well
simply don't feel safe, mycuriosity to you is, what are
the environments? What are theplaces where you can go where
(40:07):
individuals might be speaking adifferent language, where
there's a different message thatis communicated, where, yeah,
your authentic expression isactually not just welcome, but
it's encouraged.
Timothy Bish (40:18):
Can I pause you there for a second? So one of
the missions of this podcast,especially in this moment, is
that, you know, there are queerpeople all over our country who
may not be feeling safe or seenor feel like they have
communities or resources, andthis podcast is hoping, aiming,
(40:39):
trying, choosing to be one ofthose things. So if you are a
queer person and you feel reallyisolated, can that safe space be
your bedroom with yourheadphones on listening to us?
Because we are here with you,and we want you to know that you
are not alone. And then I thinkthat exploration of what are the
(41:00):
places where you feel safe is soimportant.
When I was a kid, there wasnever a discussion of a felt
sense of safety. I think theadults in my life were just
like, well, you're safe becauseI kind of know that. But no one
was ever no one was ever askingme if I felt safe, and I often
(41:21):
didn't. And so bringing thatinto the conversation, think, is
really powerful.
Eric Bomyea (41:25):
Absolutely. And I think that that idea of somebody
from the outside maybeperceiving like, oh, your
physical environment is safe.There's not a wolf in your
bedroom. Like, you're safe. Butthey don't understand the
internal environment where thereare wolves attacking from all
directions.
Totally. That goes back to beingable to express the internal
(41:51):
experience out to the worldbecause what somebody might see
is like, oh, he's safe, he'sfine. But in reality, it's like,
well, that's not how I feel. AndI think creating environments in
which we can start to bring ourinternal environment external
out into the world, whether thatis somebody in their bedroom
(42:13):
listening to this podcast. Ihope this podcast helps you out
if you're listening.
I do too. Creating that safetyand ability to receive and then
also hopefully express inreturn.
Alex Lehmann (42:26):
It's beautiful.
Eric Bomyea (42:28):
So I'm feeling that we've covered a lot of ground.
And so I just want to do a quickcheck-in and to see if there's
anywhere that you all would liketo explore either new or a
little bit deeper before westart to wrap things up.
Timothy Bish (42:43):
Well, I think I want to go a little bit into how
how our felt sense, which Ithink we've talked about pretty
well, can translate intoemotional literacy. Okay. Let's
go there then.
Alex Lehmann (42:56):
Yeah. I love that. Is there I'm curious, Tim. Is
there a specific question aroundthat that you'd be interested in
exploring?
Timothy Bish (43:02):
I mean, I'm interested in we live in a
culture where it occurs to methat men were allowed only a few
emotions in a few particularcircumstances. And we are
learning now through men's workthat in order to engage fully
with your partners, with yourchildren, with your communities,
(43:23):
with your colleagues, a broaderunderstanding of your emotional
state and how it impacts you isreally powerful. So if I'm if
I'm a man who wants to step intothat powerful authentic
expression, but I I have existedin a world where I don't have a
context for that, how do we howdo we start doing that?
Alex Lehmann (43:45):
Yeah. It's such a great question. I think, first
of all, being in environmentswith individuals who might have
that emotional literacy isfoundational to begin with,
meaning that we need to have acontext for something that we
don't know about. Right? Wedon't know what we don't know.
(44:06):
So being in environments withindividuals who can bring
awareness to the things that wedon't know is absolutely
foundational. And I think aswell, giving us some form of
structure or some form ofdirection, some form of guidance
for us to start bringingawareness towards our bodies is
(44:32):
as well foundational. You know,I consider as well a teaching
from one of my teachers, EdwardDangerfield, a beautiful man,
beautiful friend of mine,beautiful mentor. And when I
went through his breath worktraining four years ago, he
guided us every day for threemonths through an exploration
(44:52):
of, you know, what in sometraditions is called the
medicine wheel, which is how amI feeling physically, how am I
feeling mentally, how am Ifeeling emotionally, and how am
I feeling spiritually? And itwas interesting for me how, on
day one, my capacity toarticulate my experience was
vastly different from the way Iexpressed my experience on day
(45:16):
90.
It was vastly different.
Eric Bomyea (45:19):
Through those ninety days, how did you learn?
Was it through others? Was itthrough like, did you have
printouts? Like, how were youable to start expanding your
vocabulary?
Alex Lehmann (45:31):
Well, I think it begins by a few things. So
presence and sensitivity. So Ithink those are things that I've
had to really amp up, and I hadto really increase my capacity
for both of those. Meaningeverything is already here
within the body. But we justgotta be what I had to learn is
(45:53):
to become more present and moresensitive towards that, what I'm
noticing.
Right? Absolutely. Havingvocabulary, you know, maybe I
mean, there's a I think there'sa beautiful diagram, you know,
that expresses, like, hundredsof different words for feelings.
Eric Bomyea (46:10):
The feelings wheel?
Alex Lehmann (46:11):
Yeah. Is that is that what it's called?
Eric Bomyea (46:13):
It is. I I actually brought one in for the sharing
circle. So I'm I'm big onprintouts. Yeah. Because I'm
like I'm like, these worked forme.
Right? Like, I've I've I've hadto make flashcards Mhmm. For my
emotions because, like, I justdidn't have the vocabulary.
Alex Lehmann (46:29):
That's a beautiful place to begin. Right? And so
especially for those individualswho simply don't have that
sensitivity yet, they can drawtheir awareness towards what is
my experience, and what is theword that points more most
closely to what it is that I'mfeeling. Yeah? And it's almost
(46:50):
like that what I'm thinking ofright now is the more you do
that, the more data you'rebeginning to collect.
And you're starting tounderstand the nuance between
this is what I experienced onday three, but on day seven, I
noticed a completely differentexperience. Right? And so over
time, we're starting tocultivate that in our library. I
(47:13):
think a beautiful practice thatI like to as well give my
clients, which I received fromChris Bail, was this idea that,
you know, set yourself alarms.Set yourself Post it notes
where, you know, every few hoursor so, you check-in that, you
know, maybe the alarm goes off,and then you ask yourself a few
(47:34):
questions.
So the questions I ask is, whatdo I feel in this moment? Where
do I feel it? Based on what I'mfeeling, what do I need? What's
the three questions?
Timothy Bish (47:45):
What do I no. That's so powerful. What do I
feel in this moment? Questionnumber one. Where do I feel it?
Meaning, where in your physicalor subtle body do you feel it?
Right? And then based on theanswer, what do I need?
Absolutely. Simple and powerful.
I'm gonna incorporate that.
Eric Bomyea (48:05):
And then we add in an additional layer of
vocabulary of needs andunderstanding human needs and
like, Okay, from physical safetyall the way up, it's like that
can be an entire another episodeor another conversation in my
opinion. Right? So I think it'sjust it's a really beautiful
practice that just keeps withthe intention of studying. And
(48:28):
this is where me as somebodythat was trapped in my head for
a very long time, needed thingsthat would help bridge the gap
from my thinking and the thingsthat I excelled out, was
academia and business and allthese things. I needed a bridge
to help get me into my body.
And part of that is likestudying, like studying
vocabulary, stuttering words sothat I then can be like, okay,
(48:51):
like, let me look at my wheel.Like, this this seems like it's
the most related thing to meright now, and if I don't
understand it, maybe I need tolook it up. Right? And I do the
same thing with like needsbecause there's also a needs
wheel that you can like lookaround the outside and be like,
what is it that I might beneeding? Like, when I'm talking
to my therapist, I'm in weeklytherapy because, you know, got a
(49:12):
lot of shits on back.
Like, that's my big struggle alot of times is like, don't know
how to express. I don't knowwhat I'm wanting. I don't know
what I'm needing, and I don'tknow what I'm feeling because I
don't have the words.
Timothy Bish (49:22):
So what I'm hearing you say, which I think
is really powerful, is theinvitation to if you are
starting to become curious aboutyour own emotional experience,
your emotions and how theyexpress, we it isn't a light
switch. Mhmm. It's not gonna gofrom zero to a hundred. It is
gonna be a practice. In the sameway so for all the people
listening, when you go to thegym and you you say, I want big
(49:45):
pecs.
I want big arms. You don't doone workout and think, then it's
over. It's a slow process. And Ithink what I'm hearing you both
talk about is this invitationinto an ongoing, ever deepening
journey so that there may be anemotion you are capable of
experiencing ninety days fromnow that you don't even know
(50:06):
exists right now Mhmm. Becauseof the journey and the
exploration and the allowancefor that.
And I think men really do needpermission to have that messy
journey of discovery, feeling athing and being allowed to call
it something, and then two weekslater realize, oh, it's actually
something subtle slightlydifferent because I had to sit
(50:27):
with it in Brussels and, like,put a name on it and then change
that name. You know, like,inviting people into, like, a
messy process in the in in thedirection of growth. And the the
image that's coming up for menow is gardening. Like, oh, you
you plant a garden. You getdirty when you plant a garden.
But later, there are tomatoes orpumpkins or whatever you're
(50:48):
growing. Or beautiful begonias.Or or or yellow roses, like,
whatever the thing is. But butthe process of making that
required that there was, like, alittle bit of messiness and dirt
dirtiness to it.
Alex Lehmann (51:00):
Yeah. Absolutely. And the thing I'm observing as
well, which kinda speaks to thechallenge, is I feel I observed
that a lot of men struggle withbeing with that messiness
because it reflects to someregard our incompetence and
maybe as well brings elements ofshame up around feeling like
we're not good enough, whichthen leads a man to kind of go
(51:24):
back to the same copingmechanisms that worked in the
past, because this is wherewe'll feel a sense of
competency. Right? And what wereally need, as you said, Tim,
in order for us to train a newway of being, we actually have
to practice it.
Mhmm. Right? We actually have tobe a beginner. We have to go
through the process of being anovice at something, to be
(51:46):
really bad at it, to suck at it,to humble ourselves
Eric Bomyea (51:51):
Humble.
Alex Lehmann (51:52):
And be okay with that process. Be okay without
being messy. I think thechallenge is not so much around
what to do. It's more around canwe stay consistent in
practicing.
Timothy Bish (52:05):
So how do you invite the men you work with
into the permission to be messy?
Alex Lehmann (52:12):
I I would often bring up the conversation around
shame because I think this isone of the obstacles that can
come up. Messiness will bring upthese these elements of shame.
And I think if there is oneemotion that I observed myself
having most challenges with anda lot of men having challenges
(52:33):
with is shame. And I would argueit's because there's been many
moments where we've experiencedjudgment, humiliation,
criticism. And as a result,we're either over identified
with our shame, where we'removing through the world in a
very apologetic way, or we'vemasked all the shame that we're
(52:56):
actually feeling, and we soughtto become very competent, and
we're almost propped up in sucha way that it it we're not even
aware that shame is present.
Mhmm. And for me, you know, andthis is as well goes into the
conversation around emotions andfeelings. It's about developing
a relationship to them,regardless of what feeling is
(53:19):
there, whether it's anger,whether it's sadness, whether
it's grief, whether it's shame,whether it's guilt. Just
recognizing that, you know,they're one flavor of the human
expression. There is some formof value that they have.
Otherwise, we wouldn'texperience it. There's value to
shame. Right? If I do something,yeah, it serves a purpose. If I
(53:43):
do something inappropriate, andyou guys call me out on that and
say, Alex, I didn't appreciatewhat you did.
I would want to feel shame aboutthat because it corrects my
moral compass. It will correctmy behavior. If I didn't
experience shame around that,like, this is where we're
getting into the danger aroundsociopathy, psychopathy. So we
(54:06):
would wanna feel shame aboutthat. The challenge is where we
internalize that shame.
Eric Bomyea (54:12):
And we hold it for far too long.
Timothy Bish (54:14):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Alex Lehmann (54:14):
Yeah. Brene Brown says this. Right? It it goes
beyond I did something bad to Iam bad. Mhmm.
So we personalize the experienceof shame. And I think this is
the challenge that so many menface that we have personalized
our shame. We've made it meansomething about us.
Timothy Bish (54:34):
I'm so glad that you're bringing it up because
shame is such a cornerstonechallenge for queer people.
Shame is the thing that talksabout the velvet rage. Shame is
a major factor that we have towrestle with and confront if we
want to move into ourauthenticity and full
(54:55):
expression. And it's also sadbut comforting to recognize a
lot of people are wrestling withthis. So if we can have places
and conversations like the onewe're having now, oh, well, we
can talk about our shame so thatwe're not also burdened by it.
We're not all suppressing ourtruth because of it. And
(55:15):
instead, maybe slowly but surelyBit by bit. Bit by bit, making
making our way closer and closerto being being free of that
shame by being able to look atit and recognizing I'm not
alone. I'm not alone in feelingthis shame. That person over
there who I love and respect andhave maybe idolized or put on a
(55:35):
pedestal, like, people that Ithink are incredible have also
had this experience.
And, therefore, we're allallowed, again, back to the
messiness. We're all allowed toget a little messy to figure out
and work through our shame inservice to our authentic
expression, happiness,
Eric Bomyea (55:52):
and joy. I'm feeling very connected and not
alone in this conversation bybeing with you two men and
hearing your stories and beingable to share my own stories and
allowing you to see a little bitmore of what's inside of me and
starting to see a little bit ofwhat's inside of you and what's
(56:14):
inside of you, it really doesstart to help me at least feel
connected. And I feel veryconnected right now. And I just
the invitation for everyone islike just let people in just a
little bit. Right?
Go to that audition and tellpeople you're nervous. If that
(56:35):
is your true sensation, ifthat's truly what's alive inside
of you, let people know what'salive inside of you and see what
happens.
Alex Lehmann (56:44):
I think what's alive for me that I would just
maybe like to share as well withthe listeners is having the
courage to be seen. I think thisis such a fear that if we truly
show ourselves, if we trulyreveal ourselves and our
experience, that we might not beaccepted for that. And what I
(57:09):
noticed in my experience isthrough continuing to hide my
experience, I actuallyperpetuated the feeling that
people don't matter that peopledon't really care, that I don't
matter, that I'm disconnected,that I'm all alone? And again, I
(57:30):
wanna emphasize, in environmentswhere you feel that sense of
safety, where you feel like theindividual in front of me can
hold my experience, I I trustthat. What if we allow
ourselves?
What if we give ourselves apermission field just to reveal
our experience slightly and seewhat happens? Can the person
(57:54):
meet me? Alright. I'm gonna givethem a little bit more. Oh,
they're meeting me even more.
Great. I'll bring a little bitmore. Right? So I think just
working, it doesn't have to bethis is me. In trauma therapy,
we often speak about titration.
Right? Going one foot into thediscomfort while having one foot
(58:16):
sourced in safety. So I thinkthis is really an encouragement
that I wanna bring to thelisteners. How can you lean into
that edge of discomfort aroundthe fear of perhaps revealing
and showing your experience tothose individuals that you might
trust? And see if you can leanin and notice how you feel on
the other side of that.
(58:36):
Generally, I felt more expanded.I felt more liberated. I felt
more connected. And see whathappens then.
Eric Bomyea (58:45):
Beautiful. Beautiful. I feel very complete.
Timothy Bish (58:48):
You feel complete? I feel complete.
Alex Lehmann (58:50):
Likewise. I appreciate you both.
Eric Bomyea (58:52):
Appreciate you too. Tim, will you take us out,
please?
Timothy Bish (58:54):
Well, let's close our eyes. Take a deep inhale
through the nose. Sighingthrough the mouth. And it is
with deep appreciation andgratitude for the insights, the
awarenesses, the understandings,and the connection that we
shared here that we now releasethe archetypes in the spirit.
(59:16):
And as we leave the circle, Iwish everyone safety, community,
brotherhood, and love.
And with these words, containeris open but not broken. Uh-huh.
Eric Bomyea (59:27):
Uh-huh.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.