April 17, 2025 • 56 mins
Anger is a powerful and often misunderstood emotion, especially among men. While society may encourage its suppression or view it negatively, anger, when acknowledged and channeled appropriately, can serve as a catalyst for personal growth and transformation.
In this episode of The Circle, hosts Eric Bomyea and Timothy Bish go all in on the complexities of anger, exploring its origins, manifestations, and potential as a force for positive change. Through an insightful conversation, they discuss:
- Understanding Anger: Recognizing anger as a natural human emotion that exists on a spectrum, from mild irritation to intense rage.
- Anger and Boundaries: How feelings of anger can signal boundary violations and the importance of identifying and setting personal limits.
- Tools for Managing Anger: The role of men's work and embodiment practices in developing awareness of anger's early signs and strategies to process it constructively.
- Transforming Anger into Action: Ways to harness the energy of anger to motivate and drive purposeful action, turning potential destruction into empowerment.
Join us as we reframe anger from a feared emotion into a valuable tool for self-awareness and empowerment, guiding men toward healthier relationships with themselves and others.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric Bomyea (00:05):
Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go
all in on men's work, embodimentpractice, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. Ifyou haven't already, please be
sure to give us a follow, like,review, and subscribe. Today,
we're diving into the fire ofanger, how it moves through the
body, and how men's work canhelp us use it as a tool for
transformation rather than aforce of destruction. Tim, are
(00:26):
you ready to go all in?
Timothy Bish (00:27):
I hope so. I am. I am. Alright. Well, let's go.
Eric Bomyea (00:32):
Yeah. So anger is pretty powerful. It's a pretty
powerful emotion, pretty primal,and often misunderstood. It
could be seen as something to beavoided or controlled, but can
we reframe it as somethingvaluable? So Tim, my first
question is, how do you viewanger in your work and in your
practices?
Timothy Bish (00:50):
I believe that anger is an emotion that we all
have, which is kind of sillybecause all emotions are
available to all of us. It ispart of our human experience,
we've talked about that manytimes. But anger is interesting
because it is really powerful,and we have conceptions around
(01:11):
it. And for men, we are allowedto experience anger because it
its outward expression is veryoften strong and big and bold
and synonymous with kinds ofstrength and power that we
really value in this moment inour life and in our culture. But
(01:34):
we also haven't been modeled.
Many of us, most of us, have notbeen modeled modeled healthy
conscious anger and a process ofthat or been given tools or
resources to sort of understandthis emotion. So we, this week,
(01:56):
had two circles talking aboutanger. And many of the men
indicated that one of theirstruggles with anger was a
feeling as if they were failingbecause they were angry. And I
was, you know, sort ofreflecting back that might be in
large part because we don't havethe tools to start to deal with
(02:18):
our anger when it is manageable.We kind of only understand anger
in its biggest, most vibrantsort of rageful sometimes form.
And then, of course, from thatperspective, anger is entirely
bad, and we all sort of agreethat it doesn't have a place
here or that it shouldn't behere. But when we think of anger
(02:41):
as existing on a spectrum likeevery other emotion, You know,
we have been very sad or alittle sad. We've been you know,
we all are familiar with so manydifferent kinds of love and the
intensity of that love. Right?Anger isn't different, but
without tools or conversationaround it, it can be this thing
(03:05):
we only see at, like, a nine ora 10.
And so from a nine or a 10, wehave, like, an opinion about it.
So I think when we start toconnect to anger and the
fullness of the experience ofanger and the possibility of
anger and have tools to meet it,it can actually be a very
motivating force. And I have hadmoments in my life where people
(03:30):
have made me angry, and Ichanneled that anger into action
in a healthy or fruitful way.And from that, oh, it motivated
me to exceed their expectations.And in so doing, I achieved a
goal I wanted to achieve or, youknow, things like that.
(03:51):
So I think the possibility ofanger being a conscious
motivating factor exists, but Ithink we need to have a
conversation around our abilityto experience this emotion, our
recognition that this emotionisn't just rage, and tools to
(04:11):
need it when we start toexperience it.
Eric Bomyea (04:14):
And so what I heard you say is that anger is a
pretty natural emotionalresponse and it sits on a
spectrum. It can range fromlike, I'm mildly irritated to
I'm in a full rage. And whatwe're striving to do through
men's work and embodimentpractice is to bring a little
bit of awareness to when thatemotional response starts to be
(04:36):
triggered. When am I triggeredand it's minor irritation versus
when am I triggered and it's afull blown rage? So I'm curious,
what are some of the
Timothy Bish (04:51):
things that you perceive that can trigger anger
in you? I believe anger is anindication that one of our
boundaries is being has beenviolated or is being violated or
on the precipice of beingviolated. So when I'm having
that experience, I start tothink about, well, what what is
(05:15):
happening in this moment? So canyou can you restate your
question one more time?
Eric Bomyea (05:21):
Yeah. So I'm I'm I guess, what can anger signify?
Right? And like, what are thosethings? You just started talking
about boundaries.
So like, you know, a crossboundary can create that
emotional response of anger.
Timothy Bish (05:34):
So what's interesting is, you know, one of
the reasons in men's work wetalk about boundaries and edges
is understanding our capacity,what we're willing to accept,
what we're not. But we oftendon't know that. So with anger,
we I think a lot of people canhave and have had the experience
of, I'm feeling really angry andI'm not even entirely sure why.
(05:56):
I think when we do thisexploration, we can start to
recognize, oh, I'm feeling angryabout a situation or a person or
or a something. And I caninquire, okay.
Well, like, what is happening?And there's real power in, oh,
that person is on the precipiceof crossing a boundary, or they
(06:18):
are they are pushing my limit tothe place where I may not be
able to maintain my composure.What if I were aware enough to
notice that and then takeconscious action in that moment
instead of waiting until theyhave fully pushed me over, which
they may or may not intend todo, And then I am in full
(06:39):
reaction where everything is redand intense when it may be the
case that they didn't do it onpurpose and they they didn't
realize they were crossing aboundary because I wasn't aware
that it existed.
Eric Bomyea (06:52):
Being able to have the awareness to then be able to
work with it, to say like, Okay,hey, there's a boundary right
here and I'm starting to get alittle flared. I'm starting to
feel maybe a little bit of heatin my body. I've experienced
anger as a very fiery emotion.So I start to experience heat. I
start to really I can feel myblood pressure rising.
(07:14):
So just being aware of thosebodily sensations, that somatic
experience that's happeninginside of my body can give me
enough of a little bit of apause to be like, Okay, what's
happening here? Is it aboundary? Is it another
suppressed emotion? Could it bean injustice that I'm feeling, a
betrayal? Maybe there's afrustration or a powerlessness
(07:35):
that I'm experiencing.
What is happening in my fieldright now that is causing my
body to start to feel this way?
Timothy Bish (07:42):
I love that you said that because this is why
embodiment practice, yogicpractice is so important. It
creates a dialogue with our bodyto get the signals. And anger,
those signals tend to be prettybig. I'm I'm red in the face.
I'm hot.
I'm agitated. Some people, me inparticular, I feel like a
(08:04):
digestive sort of stomach y kindof experience when I'm when I'm
having anger. And so if we cantap into that, we can start to,
oh, wait. I'm starting to feelthis thing. Can I take a look?
Can I can I start to becomecurious about why why am I
starting to feel this agitationor this heat? So our ability to
(08:28):
reconnect to our own body andour sensations can be an
indication that I am nearinganger without being overcome by
it.
Eric Bomyea (08:36):
Yeah. Something has tripped the wire, right, and has
caused this sensation to happeninside of my body. And now it's
like, okay, before I let theentire thing explode, can I go
in and identify what it is andprevent the full destructive
force from being unleashed?
Timothy Bish (08:55):
Right. And what's important to remember is that
anger and full rage or fullprotective engagement isn't
always bad. So I wanted to bringthis there's a the teaching in
yoga of Ahimsa, non harming, asI understand it, is to cause the
(09:19):
least amount of harm possiblewhenever possible. And, you
know, a yogi will work hard toconsider that in in as many ways
as they can. That could meanphysically attacking,
restraining, or potentially evenmurdering, a gunman who is
(09:41):
capable in that moment of mowingdown, you know, any number of
people.
Now I suspect any yogi, myselfincluded, would prefer not to
take that action if they could.But in that moment, some
righteous or justifiable angerwould be fuel in service to a
(10:03):
higher good. Right? So so whenwe think about anger, I don't
want us to think about anger asa bad thing. I want us to think
about it as a thing that needsto be respected, understood, and
worked with.
And I think the example I usedlast night, which I really like
I just made it up, by the way,but no one's mad that the stove
(10:26):
is hot, that it's eitherelectric heat or or flame. No
one's mad about that. But we allunderstand, oh, this has a
purpose and a and a a place inhere, but it demands our
attention. And, you know, even,you know, regular cooks and and
parents who do this all thetime, remember, I have to be
(10:49):
mindful. I have to watch whereI'm putting my hands.
I have to watch that part of thepot if it might be hot. I have
to be mindful of these things. Ithink anger is the same. I'm not
mad at anger in the way that I'mnot mad at the stove, but I have
to use it mindfully. And then,you know, with the stove, we
have understandings.
Well, where do I put the the pothandle? You remember that, like,
thing for kids, like, the pothandle should be away so they
(11:11):
can't grab it and all thisstuff. We need a same set of
tools to approach and work withanger because anger isn't going
anywhere.
Eric Bomyea (11:21):
Yeah. I love that analogy so much because it's
like I don't when I'm cooking,like, I'm not ignoring the
flame. Right? Like, I'm veryaware that the flame exists, and
then I leverage it to accomplishwhat I'm trying to accomplish.
Right?
Timothy Bish (11:35):
I would argue you're even grateful Yeah. That
it's there because of whatyou're trying to accomplish
Absolutely. When placedconsciously.
Eric Bomyea (11:42):
Yes. Mhmm.
Timothy Bish (11:42):
So exactly.
Eric Bomyea (11:43):
Right. But not ignoring it. Right? Like, even
if I've even if I've gottenburnt before by my stove, I I do
not ignore the heat of thatstove. Sometimes I might get a
little unconscious of it and Imay be a little in my own world
or somewhere else and I'm notthinking about it and I get a
little bit forgetful of it orI'm just not paying full
(12:05):
attention and then I might get alittle burn.
I might grab the handle of thatpot and be like, Oh, that's hot.
I forgot. Right? Because Iwasn't bringing my awareness to
it. But, you know, not notignoring it, not pretending like
it doesn't exist.
It's there, and it's serving apurpose.
Timothy Bish (12:22):
Well, and the nature of this particular
emotion is that it willimmediately remind you. So you
grab the pot, a little you werea little distracted. You were
you know? And you will bereminded immediately. Anger is
big and powerful and has atendency to remind us quickly
when we become unconscious ofit.
(12:43):
I think that feels true in my inmy observation and personal
experience.
Eric Bomyea (12:49):
Yeah. I wanna go back to the example you gave of
the active shooter, right? Andusing conscious rage to take
action. And so I think it's avery scary example, but I
actually think that it's a goodexample to work through because
it can help us to identify someof the things in which anger can
(13:12):
signal. So I start to think ofanger can signal an unmet need.
So in that case, I have an unmetneed for safety. So all of a
sudden triggered, right? I'vegot this thing that's inside of
me that's alive. I also thinkof, you know, if that gunman is
coming in, I think that it's aninjustice. It's a betrayal.
It's a betrayal of our sharedunderstanding of common spaces
(13:34):
and how we are going to interactas a society and the politeness
and the way that we should treatpeople.
Timothy Bish (13:41):
Respect for life.
Eric Bomyea (13:42):
Respect for life. So now all of a sudden, I'm
reacting to that. Anger issignaling that there is a
misalignment of my values withtheirs. And so I think it
actually starts to help us in anextreme example understand some
of the things that can have anangry response. Right.
Timothy Bish (14:06):
And it is an intense example, but it allows
us to understand that even angerat a 10 isn't necessarily bad.
So I get nervous about peopleputting value judgments on
emotions at certain intensities,but rather think about them in
(14:28):
the context and with consciousawareness and application. So it
may be the case that anger at a10 only has a very few specific
circumstances in which it isappropriate, but it still has
some. There is no that's all badwhen we think about the
(14:53):
emotional human experience thatwe're all talking about here.
Eric Bomyea (14:57):
There are some times though that I've
experienced in my life growingup. Like I was a very reactive,
emotionally unregulated child.My emotions were very large. And
so what maybe would have been aminor irritant or a one or a two
on the anger scale to somechildren was a full 10 for me.
(15:19):
So I think trying to find waysin which to kind of bring that
down a little bit, bring thatdial down so that my reaction
isn't as large and so that I canunderstand what a 10 looks like
and when it might be appropriateto go to that 10 versus how do I
(15:40):
regulate myself a little bitmore so that the minor
infractions don't become a 10?
Timothy Bish (15:46):
Well, this is why we need people who can model it
and to give us tools because thechild needs guidance. They need
communication. They need tools.They need to understand
boundaries. And but it is notthe child's responsibility as
far as I understand it to beable to figure that out in that
(16:08):
moment.
Oh, I'm irrationally angry rightnow, and now I need to, you
know, engage my own tools. No.The child needs a guardian to
help them understand what theirexperience is. And I think most
of us didn't have that. So firstand foremost, the the child that
(16:29):
you described, your your youngself, like, you know, dear young
Eric, right, wasn't doinganything wrong, was was trying
to figure out their theirexperience and and was needing
guidance in that.
And that guidance could bestern, you know, if it needs to
be from a from a guardian. Butcontext around anger is okay,
(16:51):
but this is too much. Like,these feelings are valid. Like,
here's some stuff we can do. Andthat's why we're having the
conversation.
So now because everybody in thecircle last night and the night
before, agreed that they didn'thave a really healthy model of
(17:15):
anger, and they weren't taughttools to navigate it. Every
single person in the circle inthe last two days now this is a,
you know, small sample, buteveryone agreed. So that leads
me to believe, and based onother observations that I've had
in working with lots of men indifferent ways, I do not believe
most of us have had thatmodeled. And so how do we learn
(17:38):
it?
Eric Bomyea (17:39):
Well, I'm curious. I have a pretty clear
understanding from my ownexperiences and my own family,
right? Like what uncontrolledanger looks like or unconscious
anger, right? Like me, myself asa non rational kid, like going
with big reactions. My father isa very angry person, self
(18:00):
claimed.
That is one of his crutches. Heloves to use it. I'm angry
because my father was angry. Iwas like, Okay, great, cool. But
also, let's him off
Timothy Bish (18:08):
the hook.
Eric Bomyea (18:09):
Right. So I've seen lots of modeled you know,
unconscious anger. But I'mcurious, like, what does the
conscious use of anger looklike? Like, if you were to model
that for me, what would it looklike?
Timothy Bish (18:23):
Well, I feel like I have modeled it for you. I
can't remember when this was,but we were recording an episode
and we were in a differentunderstanding of what we were
talking about, and I I gotangry. Right? But what did I do?
I paused.
I stood up. I shook. I said, Ithink we need to take a break. I
(18:46):
stepped away. Right?
That's one example. I I don'teven I'm not even gonna suggest
that that was the best way.Maybe there were even better
ways to do it. But I've hadteachers of mine, my teacher,
Amir Kalighi. I was in aretreat.
We were gonna go into a sweatlodge. And I had this image of
(19:06):
what this sweat lodge was gonnabe, and I thought it was gonna
be like a big sauna. And I waslike, it's gonna be hot. And I
don't like it when it's hot, butI can can deal with hot. And
then I get there, and we're alllike all these men that I've
been training with, we're all inour bathing suits sort of ready
to go in every you know?
And I see this hut. I don't It'snot a hut. I don't you know,
(19:29):
it's a lodge, and it's like fourfeet tall and completely dark.
And I start I'm like, wait. So Istart looking.
I'm like, are there stairs? Dowe go down? Like, is, you know,
is this a stairwell down? Youknow? It turns out, no.
It is not a stairwell down. Itis a very short, very cramped
(19:51):
space into which lots of menwearing almost no clothes come
in. And then some guy, hopefullyyou trust him, starts
pitchforking in fired lava rock
Eric Bomyea (20:04):
Mhmm.
Timothy Bish (20:05):
To heat this room really intensely. And then when
when that's all done, they closethe door and it's pitch black.
Oh my gosh. And myclaustrophobia, what I was like.
And I went in and I was like Iwas sitting next to Amir.
Amir was like, come sit next tome. This will be fine. And then
at one point, I'm like, I can'tdo this. Anyway, long story
short, I left and then felt likea failure
Eric Bomyea (20:27):
and
Timothy Bish (20:29):
was out there so mad. And I was like, I'm gonna
fucking leave. Like, fuck thisshit. Like, someone should have
told me this blah blah blah, youknow, clearly in a full trigger.
And then a friend of mine cameout and talked to me, and I was
like, I'm leaving.
I'm done. Like, fuck this. Ihate you know. Mhmm. Know?
And then finally, America do it.And I was like, I need to talk
to you. And he was like, okay.And we went into his room, and
(20:54):
he was steady enough to take methrough a process, a process
that included me grabbing apillow and screaming and, like,
punching and moving this energythrough me. And then I really
like telling the story because Ihad that moment, and I was like
I was and I'm like, okay.
I wasn't fully calmed, but I'mlike, okay. Enough to leave and
(21:19):
leave the room and say, okay.I'm not leaving. I can do this.
And then the next day, so manythings happened that, like,
allowed for, like, healing andtransformation.
But it was because he was ableto stand there with me, see me,
like, raging at him. Like, youshould have fucking told me
(21:41):
this, you know, like, this wasyour responsibility, blah blah
blah blah. And, of course, I'm,like, raging at him because he's
every man that never told me allthe things I needed to know.
Right? And he was able to holdit, breathe with me, lead me
through a thing, and move thecharge.
And from that, I stayed and thenhad transformational healing. So
I think when we think aboutdealing with anger, well, can
(22:05):
you have a person who can watchthe storm happen and then and
stay? And not he didn't stormback at me. He didn't match me
with, you know and I wasn't Iwasn't attacking him in the
sense of, like, I wasn'tcriticizing him. I was kind of
expressing my own but he he wasa steady force.
(22:30):
That, I think we all need that,and we need we need space to to
recognize that that's helpful.We need the space to recognize
the extent to which we can dothat, and we also need space to
recognize that in our attempt todo that, we may fail.
Eric Bomyea (22:45):
And thank you for sharing that example and walking
us through it. I mean, being inthat moment, it sounds like to
me that there was almost abetrayal. Walked into a
situation and were eitherexpecting something or there was
I think you said it like youshould have told me. We should
(23:07):
have been aware of what we werewalking into because
Timothy Bish (23:10):
Up until five minutes before that happened, I
had no clue that myclaustrophobia was about to be
triggered. Yeah. It just never Ithought, oh, I'm gonna have to
sit through the heat and, like,kind of breathe and, like,
manage that. I'm because I'm,like, a very fiery person. Like,
that's gonna be hard for me.
Claustrophobia was never on myradar. And then suddenly it was
like front and center. Like, youare you are gonna be trapped in
(23:33):
a dark space with like lavarocks.
Eric Bomyea (23:35):
Yeah. Like, I can I could I could trust the
situation that I had presentedin my head? Right? However,
right, like, you are presentinga new vision for me that I do
not trust. There is now abetrayal.
Right? Like, this was not what Isigned up for.
Timothy Bish (23:48):
Be clear, by the way, I want to go a little
deeper into the details. This isthe lava rocks existed in the
center of this round sort of,like, low yurt. Right? And they
I think there was, like, alittle row of rocks, I can't
quite remember, into which theserocks were. But I'm like, oh, if
I had been at a different partof the circle and it was pitch
(24:12):
black, I could haveinadvertently crawled over,
like, lava rocks that had justbeen fired.
I mean, it was it was kind of areally like, a legitimately
scary position even if you don'thave claustrophobia. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (24:27):
And I I and I'm I'm I'm tracking this because it's
like there's so many things thatyou stand for. Or you stand for
safety of bringing people intoawareness of the experience that
they may be going through. Andby you seeing that situation,
you're like, this is actuallyunsafe. This could potentially
be very dangerous. That's avalue of yours.
(24:47):
And this entire experiencepushed you to that edge, that
boundary of like, I do not agreethat spaces should be unsafe.
And to me, the space is unsafe,so I'm feeling anger towards it
and also claustrophobia and alsoright?
Timothy Bish (25:02):
Yeah. And you're describing it very well. I will
say in generosity to my teacherand the experience that he's
creating, if claustrophobiaisn't a thing, it may not
register, and you might needsomeone to bring it to your
awareness. So I can understandhow a very well intentioned
person could think we're justgonna go in here and, like, do
(25:25):
the spiritual practice. Andthey're not thinking, well, what
if I have to crawl out of here?
And will I burn myself on, youknow, volcanic rock in the
process? Because that isn't thatisn't a fear he's got. It's not
on his radar. So I wanna bereally generous about that. I
(25:47):
was angry, I think justifiablyso, And I think that he heard me
when I expressed it.
But I I I just want to be clear.I I still think he was doing his
best to create a safe container.
Eric Bomyea (26:00):
And this is this is not a jab at that. I'm just I'm
and I'm valid I want to validatethat, the emotion, the anger,
super justified by saying thereare these things that what I'm
hearing are certain things thatyou hold dear that were not
(26:21):
like, respected in a way. Right?And it may not have anything to
do with him. Right?
Like his right? This is justlike this is your experience.
And
Timothy Bish (26:29):
Well, is the importance, I think, of, like,
understanding our edges, ourboundaries, our capacities, and
how we can utilize it. Because Iwasn't aware until that moment,
oh, I really value the abilityto leave whenever I need to. In
that moment, it became clear,oh, I I don't feel like I can
(26:51):
leave if I need to, and now Ihave an experience of that. And
in this moment, my experiencewas fear and anger. Yeah.
Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (27:01):
And both of those things are survival mechanisms,
right? And I think that's a lotof what we're talking about is
how do we recognize whensomething is triggering or
starting to encroach upon oursurvival instincts. And we meet
it with anger as a signal toourselves to be like, Hey, I
don't like that. Something aboutthat doesn't align with who I
(27:25):
am. And then from there, whatconscious action can I take?
Timothy Bish (27:29):
Right. And so just to complete the story then,
because I think it's relevantnow that what you after what you
just said, the agreement thenext day was that I was gonna go
back and do it again. But I hadspoken about my need for a
certain amount of control inorder to feel safe, so I was
going to be the man pitchforkingthe stones. And and then that
(27:52):
meant that I could be right bythe door. And then if I needed
to, I could I I had agency toopen the door and and pop out if
I needed.
Whereas where I was the firstnight, I was a few men down, and
it would have meant crawling inthe dark over their laps. Now in
where I was seated, to be clear,there was no threat of me
crawling on the rock. But if Ihad been in a different place,
(28:15):
there might have been. And sothat was the arrangement, and I
was gonna go ahead and do it. Idid the training to to put the
rocks in because you have to becareful.
Eric Bomyea (28:25):
Yeah. Mean You know?
Timothy Bish (28:26):
These are lava rocks that we just took out of
the fire. And then later in thatexperience, I learned that there
was another man who was gonna doit who had arguably equal or
greater claustrophobia than Ihave. And because of all the
(28:46):
work that we had done, I said toto Amir, I said, you know, I
think the best course right nowis to let him do it. And so I
approached him, talked to himabout it. He agreed, and I think
the greatest good was served.
So two days later, I felt likean enormous amount of growth and
(29:07):
transformation had happened, butin part because anger came up
and I had someone who wascapable of holding it
Eric Bomyea (29:16):
and allowing me to work through it. And and
modeling, like, how to work withsomebody through that intense
emotion. And so
Timothy Bish (29:25):
now Before you go on, because I know you're about
to just because anger could havecould have made me leave, but I
know I would have had a feelingabout that. There would have
been a part of me that wouldhave felt justified in leaving
because I was justifiably angry.There would have been another
part of me that had felt like Iquit or I would have maybe shame
(29:46):
and all this other stuff. Theprocess of being able to be as
angry as I was and then have aconscious practice to work
through it, I think, was thething that got me to that place
that felt really good. If I hadgotten to a car, which I could
have done, and left, I I wouldhave felt justified.
(30:08):
I also know I would not havefelt as good as
Eric Bomyea (30:11):
I ended up feeling. And being able to sit with it
and work through it and thenallow it to be discharged
through you and then channeledinto a learning opportunity and
an opportunity for growth.Beautiful. And so with a lot of
this work, it really is youteach me, I teach somebody else.
(30:33):
It's kind of like the lineageaspect of it of you were modeled
something and now you have theopportunity to now model that.
So now curious, if a man came toone of your circles struggling
with explosive or repressedanger, where would you start in
helping to work with it?
Timothy Bish (30:49):
I would need a more specific question because I
suspect lots of men come tocircle. Circles, mine or others,
and they are struggling withanger. So are you asking me
about someone who's gettingexplosively angry in Circle, or
they are coming to Circle tohelp work on
Eric Bomyea (31:10):
their anger? Okay. Let's start with let's let's
break this down then. So let'ssay it's a personal one on one
coaching client who'sspecifically coming to you
because, hey, I've recognizedthat I have some tendencies
towards explosive anger. I mayhave some repressed anger.
Like, I wanna work with you.Where do we start?
Timothy Bish (31:29):
I would start by becoming curious about how like,
where they start to feel angerand how. What makes you angry?
What? And start to look forpatterns. You know, typically, I
can get angry.
This is an example in thecircle. Like, oh, someone cuts
(31:50):
me off in traffic. I can getangry about that. But is it a
pattern of mine? A lot of themen in the circle, it is a
pattern of theirs.
And I'm not me personally, Tim,I am not quick to road rage. It
doesn't seem very, like,fruitful or, you know, useful in
any way. Doesn't bother mesuper, like, a lot. So what what
(32:17):
creates anger in yourepetitively over and over and
over again? Where do where doyou find it?
And then how do you experienceit? So step one would be
recognizing, oh, I get angryevery time someone speaks to me
this way. Once we start toidentify those things, you can
say, okay. Well, what I'mhearing is that you get angry a
(32:40):
lot when someone speaks to youin a particular way. And then we
start to go the next level.
Like, well, what's underneaththat? And what's underneath that
is, are you feelingdisrespected? Are you feeling
unheard? Are you feeling unseen?And we start to get we start
going to the root.
And, you know, with the yogapractice, my teachers always
said yoga is a radical practicebecause we are looking for the
(33:04):
root. We're looking for the rootof what's happening and to
address the root. And this isthe same idea. So so you might
think, don't like it when peopletalk to me in a certain way.
Chances are that's not the root.
And the root is, oh, you don'tyou feel disrespected or you
feel unheard or you feel, youknow, mistreated, whatever
Eric Bomyea (33:25):
the thing is. An unmet need.
Timothy Bish (33:26):
Yeah. And then we start to get deeper and deeper.
What's that thing? Okay. Andwhen we when we have a sense of
what that thing is and how itoccurs in our body, then we can
start to first look at it andrecognize it, but then also
start to work with that.
So when that happens, here'sthis tool or practice or this
(33:47):
tool or practice that you canstart to work with because it
doesn't mean it's gonna stopannoying you, bothering you.
Eric Bomyea (33:55):
Okay. We take that.
Timothy Bish (33:57):
Right. You don't have to be you don't have to be
a reaction to it.
Eric Bomyea (34:00):
Right. Like, I go back to, like, me as a child,
like, can I take that 10 down toa two?
Timothy Bish (34:05):
Right? The
Eric Bomyea (34:07):
thing is still going to happen that is going to
create some anger inside of me.There's going to be an anger
reaction. But instead of thatthing, let's just take, you
know, somebody cuts me off intraffic. Instead of me going all
the way to a 10
Timothy Bish (34:25):
Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea (34:26):
How can I, next time it happens, maybe go to a
two?
Timothy Bish (34:29):
Yeah. But that's really generous. I think we are
saying, if you're at a 10, can Iget you to an eight? And just
that space, you might be able tothink about, well, what is the
consequence of that thing I wantto do so badly? I wanna scream
at you.
I want to lay on my horn. I wantto block you on something. You
(34:55):
know? And that space allows youto be like, do I really wanna do
that? Even the space to be like,should I put my phone down and
go, like, lay down for a minute,put some music on?
So, yes, ideally, ten to two. Ilove that. Like, also smart
driving. Right? Yeah.
(35:15):
Yeah. But I think I think,additionally, reducing it any
amount to create a little bit ofspace will help most of us not
make a rash decision that wewill then regret. Thank you.
Eric Bomyea (35:32):
I think that's really valuable to start there
and working your way down theladder, so to speak. The next
part of the question, whathappens if there's somebody that
comes to circle that has anexperience similar to the one
that you had? How do you thinkyou would handle that today?
Timothy Bish (35:52):
If a person came and had an experience similar
the one that I had with Amir, Iwould hopefully meet them in the
way that he met me. Deeppresence groundedness,
curiosity, allowance. So tostart with this, Amir never once
(36:17):
indicated that my emotionsweren't welcome. Right. And he
never said, I don't or I don'tremember if he was like, your
anger is welcome here.
It's allowed. But I felt that.So I'm like, okay. I think I
would meet it with with thosethings.
Eric Bomyea (36:37):
Powerful, like the allowance of it, the recognition
of it. We're not going to ignorethis. We're not going to try to
suppress this. We're going totry to move it. It is welcome
here.
Timothy Bish (36:49):
I will say, and that it's the moving of it that
I think is so powerful for men.And I talked about this, you
know, there is a physiologicalcascade of things that happen
when we start to experienceemotions and anger. Like, our
nervous system and our endocrinesystem start to prepare us in in
different ways. And the movingof it is so important with
(37:13):
movement, with breath. It's whywe feel better when we box,
which I want you to talk aboutin a second, or do a killer
workout or take a long walk or,you know, any number of things.
I was in an a retreat whereanother man got triggered, and
the response was some version ofsacred combat. He was given the
(37:37):
opportunity to push up and exertforce against a person who was
exerting force back and workingthrough that emotion in this
safe way to move it. And thenfrom that moving of it, enough
space had been created that hewas able to step into a powerful
(38:01):
choice. I don't wanna go deeperinto these details about that,
but that ability to move it in asafe, conscious way allowed for
a powerful choice that servedthe greatest good for all. And
that, I think, is what we'regoing for.
Eric Bomyea (38:18):
Allowance, movement, not repression, not
ignoring. It's part of why Ibox. And I've shared this in
both circles that one of thepractices that I have found most
useful in my consciouschanneling of aggression and
anger is boxing. And I do it ina way that I'm creating a safe
(38:42):
container for myself to be ableto play with those emotions in a
way. I'm not going boxingbecause I'm currently angry.
I go boxing and I set myself upa container. Total workout is 12
rounds with three rounds ofboxing in each of those. 12
(39:07):
sets, three reps.
Timothy Bish (39:08):
I don't know. So it's 12 rounds.
Eric Bomyea (39:10):
Yeah. So there's 12 rounds of boxing and then
there's three
Timothy Bish (39:14):
sets in each round. Sure. I'm y'all, I'm
Eric Bomyea (39:17):
as you can clearly tell, like, I'm not the one to
talk fitness. Like, I I know themath, but I don't know the
names. Okay. Don't know the thethings. I have the whole thing
is 12, and then each of those 12is three.
Timothy Bish (39:29):
Got it. Yeah. So, yeah, we'll say each round Yeah.
Has three sets
Eric Bomyea (39:33):
Yeah.
Timothy Bish (39:34):
And you do 12 rounds. Yes. 12 rounds.
Altogether. Yes.
Yeah. So thirty thirty six sets.Yes. Got it. And how long is the
set?
Eric Bomyea (39:45):
A minute.
Timothy Bish (39:46):
And what do you do in that minute?
Eric Bomyea (39:47):
So it's different boxing combinations, Jab cross,
Jab cross hook, and they buildin progression. So what happens
is the first round is usuallyone one to two punches. And then
the second round willincorporate one
Timothy Bish (40:05):
to two more. When you say, like, kinds of punch.
Yeah. So jab, cross. And then a
Eric Bomyea (40:12):
hook, and then an uppercut. Yeah. So and then
different places where it may belike a body or a head. So
different areas that they couldbe placed. And so what that
progression allows though isthat, again, I'm not going into
boxing to say, I need to moveenergy because I'm angry.
It's like, I'm going to create acontainer in which my aggression
(40:35):
can slowly build. And so thenthrough that, as I'm starting to
move my body in a way that isreally forceful, the natural
heat starts to rise. There maybe a memory that pops up. There
may be something that pops upthat allows me to start to build
(40:56):
up that intensity, thataggression starts to build, that
anger can start to build. Andthen I have that set time, that
time container where I can gothere and then I come down.
And then I go there and then Icome down.
Timothy Bish (41:10):
So you're working with it as if you're in a
workshop.
Eric Bomyea (41:14):
Yeah.
Timothy Bish (41:14):
Yeah. I think that's what we a lot of the
practice we do is that verything. I put myself in a safe
place with structure so that Ican relax into that. And I think
the time structure that you justmentioned allows you to ramp up
and ramp down without you andthen you start to experience,
(41:39):
well, what does it feel like toto be to be connected in this
way at an at a six and then aseven and then an eight. Right.
And so the more you do that, themore you're gonna be able to
move through your life andrealize let's say something
happens fast. Like, oh, Iimmediately went to an eight.
(42:00):
Well, without any context,you're you're kind of at the
whim. Right? But with whatyou're describing and what we do
in embodiment work and yogicpractice is, oh, I went from
zero to an eight fast, and Ihave a sense of how I how I am
at an eight and what happens ifeight turns to nine so I can
(42:21):
start to make some choicesimmediately so that I I can be
the most conscious person I canbe.
And with me, that's stillprobably very red faced and very
passionate, but it's controlledor conscious.
Eric Bomyea (42:38):
And I can go as I'm building up, I start to
understand where also that lineexists, where I go into red
rage, where I go intodestructive anger. And I can
start to become very aware ofthat. And if I do allow myself
(42:58):
to cross over that, if I'm in aflurry, I'm round eight and I am
just feeling it and somethinghas unlocked and I am just going
to town on that bag and I'mlike, Rah! Coming back down.
Coming back to myself allows methen if in the real world
something does bring me up, Iknow that I can come down.
(43:22):
I can go there and then I canjust kind of bring myself back.
I can come back down to ease. Wejust talked with Julian about
this right, of coming back toourselves.
Timothy Bish (43:33):
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think that is an unbelievably
valuable skill that most of usneed to bring awareness to and
increase practice and to have acommunity where we can talk
about that. Because in thepracticing of it, as in the
(43:54):
practice of anything, we aregoing to fail.
That's the idea of why wepractice. We're like, can I test
the limit, see if I can do it?Oh, I got it wrong. I got it
wrong. Oh, now I got it right.
You know, that idea. And so canwe engage in that with this
emotion that sometimes feelslike we have limited permission.
(44:16):
And and if we get it wrong, wecan immediately feel like a
failure. So what if you didn't?What if what if I could talk to
someone who was also on theirjourney of deepening their
understanding and engagementwith anger, And I could get
their reflection without methinking, well, if I tell them
that I messed up, what if I toldthem I got a little unskillful
in that moment, they were gonnathink I'm a whatever and
(44:38):
everything's gonna crumble.
And instead, oh, no. Here's aman where I can say, I was doing
pretty well, and then thishappened, and I got too sharp
with my kids or with thiscolleague or whatever the thing.
You know? Because that's themoment of growth. Oh, so what I
heard was, what what could youdo next time?
And we're suddenly in a processthat I think is of benefit to
(45:03):
all people.
Eric Bomyea (45:03):
Absolutely. Being able to really share in that
experience and and recognizethat, like, many of us, myself,
I'll just speak to myself, likeI was ashamed of my anger. Anger
was used as a way to shame me.You are bad if you are angry.
And I looked at the world thatway too.
(45:24):
Looked at still this day, I'mworking through it. Like I think
of my father. Right? It's a veryangry man. And I think of him as
a bad man.
And I'm still working throughthat today. And I'm still trying
to unpack that today so that Ican work towards forgiving him
while also working on myself andmy own relationship with my
(45:46):
anger. And the allowance that Idon't have to suppress my anger,
that I can express it, and thatI can then talk with other
people about it.
Timothy Bish (45:58):
I think I'm listening to an audiobook right
now that reminded me of thisconcept where I think we will
all benefit, especially when itcomes to anger, when we start to
describe behavior, not people.So what I heard you say about
your about your dad, and I thinka lot of us can relate, oh, he
was an angry person. He was anangry drunk. He was an angry
(46:21):
whatever. And so I think of himas a bad man.
And for our own understanding ofthe emotion and the process and
moving forward, like, well, whatif he's not a bad man? But what
if his behaviors were bad?
Eric Bomyea (46:33):
Right. What about his behaviors didn't align with
my values that
Timothy Bish (46:39):
I disagree with. Right. And this then makes it
more empowering because, oh, Isaw exemplified behaviors I do
not want to exhibit, engage in,offer to others, perpetuate
exactly. And so but rather than,well, you're you're bad, I'm
(47:03):
choosing, and then what am Ichoosing? Well, I know I don't
want that.
So what's what what is thechoice I will make? Oh, I wanna
be more patient. I wanna be morecompassionate, more
understanding. I wanna be moreyou know, whatever the thing is.
And, again, I keep coming back.
So, like, why are we doing men'swork and embodiment practice and
shamanic work and yogic work? Todo that, to to create and
(47:25):
cultivate the experience and thecapacity within ourselves to be
the person we wanna be. Becauseit doesn't happen. It doesn't
just happen. You don't decide,I'm I wasn't compassionate, but
tomorrow I'm going to be, andthen from then on.
No. You have to practicecompassion and practice empathy.
(47:47):
And part of that practice isbecoming curious about it and
listening to other people'sexperience of it and letting
that inform you. And I thinkthis is in large part why our
elders are so important. Becausea lot of this is, oh, through
(48:08):
years and years and decades ofexperience, you have come to
understand these things, and youmight be able to offer me a bit
of a shortcut.
Now if you think about the life,let's assume assume that we all
live eighty years. And if anelder could give you a piece of
advice that would get you to anunderstanding even five years
(48:31):
sooner, that's kind of amazing.And then you could pass
Eric Bomyea (48:36):
it off to somebody else who could get it five years
earlier than that.
Timothy Bish (48:39):
Yeah. So if I if I get an insight when I'm I'm 46
right now. If I get an insighttoday that, you know, from an
elder that I trust that I wouldotherwise have to wait another
ten years, and I can startliving it now. And then I can
opt in you know? So this is thebenefit of having a community
where we can share ourexperiences and then have them
(49:02):
held and seen.
So that the I think theimportant thing here is when
you're the the new one with theleast amount of experience in
this kind of work, yourexperience is heard and seen and
held also. It isn't it isn'tcompared to that elder who's
been doing this practice forfifty years and, you know, is
(49:23):
this calm elderly presence thatwe've seen. No. You get to say
your thing too and then listento all this other stuff.
Eric Bomyea (49:33):
And be able to bring in that beginner's
experience as well. I think it'sreally beautiful to understand
that we can all learn somethingfrom each other. We can all
learn something from eachother's experiences to hopefully
navigate this world with alittle bit more ease, a little
bit more joy, and not control.Because I don't want to say
(49:59):
controlling emotions. I don'tbelieve emotions should be
controlled.
It's more like respected. Idon't think
Timothy Bish (50:08):
emotions being controlled. I think emotions can
be understood. I think they canbe collaborated with. Yeah. And
I think they can be directed viaconsciousness in in a variety
respectful way.
Yeah. So I think I think I likethat idea of the word control
(50:28):
not exactly right. Because if weif we think about controlling
them, at any moment when we havea big emotion, we may feel like
we're failing to control them.So, yeah, I'm in agreement with
you. Emotions come and go.
Mhmm. Oftentimes, we don't havecontrol over whether or not they
show up. We have control overhow we respond to their to their
(50:50):
showing up. In the same way thatwe get to respond to the
weather. Oh, it's raining, and Ican wear a raincoat or take an
umbrella or, you know, driveinstead of bike or, you know,
whatever the thing is.
But I can't I can't stop therain until it stops. So when we
have anger, I'll it's I'mexperiencing anger. So now what
(51:14):
do I like, what is my angerraincoat or my anger umbrella?
Mhmm. Because I'm not gonna Ican't just poof, anger is gone.
Right. But I can take somesteps.
Eric Bomyea (51:25):
I can't say every day is gonna be a sunny day, but
I can definitely say I can beprepared for when it is a rainy
day.
Timothy Bish (51:31):
So sunny is happy and anger is rain. Like, what
without let's go back to it.Like, what is sadness? Is it
snow?
Eric Bomyea (51:37):
Well, sadness ice. Yeah. So Okay. I'm just I did I
did have an opportunity to pullup Robert Frost's poem.
Timothy Bish (51:44):
Oh, yay.
Eric Bomyea (51:45):
So with that, just a quick little recap. We covered
anger today, and anger is reallypowerful. Anger is really
powerful and oftentimesmisunderstood. And I think that
with today's conversation, westarted to highlight that we can
build a relationship with ouranger. We can acknowledge that
(52:07):
underneath that anger issomething else.
And listening to what thatsomething else might be and
bringing curiosity to it canhelp us to make change in our
own lives and in the world.
Timothy Bish (52:19):
You you and I have both been in circles. I have
seen it happen so many times.Men will get into a chi
generator, and we are asked tohold this pose sometimes for
fifteen minutes, twenty minutes.I've heard 30 and Yeah. I have
seen anger, not just anger, butlike lot fuel someone to keep
(52:46):
going.
It can be so powerful. But inthat practice, we start to
understand our nuancedexperience of it and bringing
that nuanced experience. Soanger can
Eric Bomyea (52:59):
be
Timothy Bish (52:59):
powerful. Anger can be consciously directed.
Anger needs to be respected.Anger, I believe, needs to be
discussed, especially when it'sat its beginning stages so that,
oh, I'm starting to feel angry.And can we have an exploration
before I am, like, out ofcontrol?
(53:22):
And I think if we can start thispractice, there's a lot of power
to be had. And, you know, thisis a podcast for queer men and
queer people. I think a lot ofqueer people have a lot of
reason to be angry. Angry aboutwhat was expected of them and,
(53:42):
you know, being forced to denyparts of their truth. And so and
I think we we had thatexperience in a world where many
of us were still not allowed toexpress it.
So why why do we need men'sworkspaces and queer men's
workspaces for that purpose? Andwe saw it modeled yesterday and
(54:02):
the day before in the circle.The men there needed it because
it was a shared experience.
Eric Bomyea (54:11):
And and thank you for bringing the container for
us to have that sharedexperience to be able to say,
we're here to learn how to useanger as a tool of
transformation rather thanallowing it to be a destructive
force because it really can be.
Timothy Bish (54:28):
And I would the reason I brought it thank you
for saying that. The reason Ibrought it was because I have
been, you know, in the last fewweeks experiencing some anger of
my own. I wanna remind people asyou're working with anger, that
does not mean that it isn'tuncomfortable. Mhmm. I have been
uncomfortable in the last fewweeks and and months, and and I
(54:56):
am grateful that I have toolsand community to engage
consciously with this emotionand the discomfort that comes
with it.
So I'd like to just say quicklythank you to everyone who
supported me through thatprocess. And it is my hope now
to be that support for otherpeople, and then hopefully we
(55:16):
create a con a network ofpeople. We can all support each
other.
Eric Bomyea (55:21):
Right. You know, a bunch of steady oaks supporting
each other, you know, keepingkeeping each other's branches.
Be like, hey. I got you today,or you might have to get me.
Timothy Bish (55:29):
Is that is that rubbing the bark?
Eric Bomyea (55:31):
Yeah. No. No. No. That's my little branch.
My little branch going onsaying, like, I got you. Oh,
like I got you.
Timothy Bish (55:35):
Like little neurons? Okay. Yeah. Okay. Well,
let's wrap this up with thispoem.
Eric Bomyea (55:39):
All right.
Timothy Bish (55:39):
Well Wait. I got to laugh because I like your
little branch.
Eric Bomyea (55:43):
Yeah. Okay. All right. This is Fire and Ice by
Robert Frost. Some say the worldwill end in fire.
Some say in ice. From what I'vetasted of desire, I hold with
those who favor fire. But if Ihad to perish twice, I think I
know enough of hate to know thatfor destruction, ice is also
(56:04):
great and would suffice. Withthat, I'm feeling very complete.
How are you?
Timothy Bish (56:10):
I also feel complete. Will you take a sip,
please? I will. Closing our eyesand connecting to our breath. It
is with deep appreciation andgratitude for the shared space,
for these insights andawarenesses that may have come
that we release the sacredcontainer, wishing you all
safety, community, brotherhood,and love.
(56:31):
And with these words, containeris open but not broken. Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go
all in on men's work, embodimentpractice, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. Ifyou haven't already, please be
sure to give us a follow, like,review, and subscribe. Today,
we're diving into the fire ofanger, how it moves through the
body, and how men's work canhelp us use it as a tool for
transformation rather than aforce of destruction. Tim, are
(00:26):
you ready to go all in?
Timothy Bish (00:27):
I hope so. I am. I am. Alright. Well, let's go.
Eric Bomyea (00:32):
Yeah. So anger is pretty powerful. It's a pretty
powerful emotion, pretty primal,and often misunderstood. It
could be seen as something to beavoided or controlled, but can
we reframe it as somethingvaluable? So Tim, my first
question is, how do you viewanger in your work and in your
practices?
Timothy Bish (00:50):
I believe that anger is an emotion that we all
have, which is kind of sillybecause all emotions are
available to all of us. It ispart of our human experience,
we've talked about that manytimes. But anger is interesting
because it is really powerful,and we have conceptions around
(01:11):
it. And for men, we are allowedto experience anger because it
its outward expression is veryoften strong and big and bold
and synonymous with kinds ofstrength and power that we
really value in this moment inour life and in our culture. But
(01:34):
we also haven't been modeled.
Many of us, most of us, have notbeen modeled modeled healthy
conscious anger and a process ofthat or been given tools or
resources to sort of understandthis emotion. So we, this week,
(01:56):
had two circles talking aboutanger. And many of the men
indicated that one of theirstruggles with anger was a
feeling as if they were failingbecause they were angry. And I
was, you know, sort ofreflecting back that might be in
large part because we don't havethe tools to start to deal with
(02:18):
our anger when it is manageable.We kind of only understand anger
in its biggest, most vibrantsort of rageful sometimes form.
And then, of course, from thatperspective, anger is entirely
bad, and we all sort of agreethat it doesn't have a place
here or that it shouldn't behere. But when we think of anger
(02:41):
as existing on a spectrum likeevery other emotion, You know,
we have been very sad or alittle sad. We've been you know,
we all are familiar with so manydifferent kinds of love and the
intensity of that love. Right?Anger isn't different, but
without tools or conversationaround it, it can be this thing
(03:05):
we only see at, like, a nine ora 10.
And so from a nine or a 10, wehave, like, an opinion about it.
So I think when we start toconnect to anger and the
fullness of the experience ofanger and the possibility of
anger and have tools to meet it,it can actually be a very
motivating force. And I have hadmoments in my life where people
(03:30):
have made me angry, and Ichanneled that anger into action
in a healthy or fruitful way.And from that, oh, it motivated
me to exceed their expectations.And in so doing, I achieved a
goal I wanted to achieve or, youknow, things like that.
(03:51):
So I think the possibility ofanger being a conscious
motivating factor exists, but Ithink we need to have a
conversation around our abilityto experience this emotion, our
recognition that this emotionisn't just rage, and tools to
(04:11):
need it when we start toexperience it.
Eric Bomyea (04:14):
And so what I heard you say is that anger is a
pretty natural emotionalresponse and it sits on a
spectrum. It can range fromlike, I'm mildly irritated to
I'm in a full rage. And whatwe're striving to do through
men's work and embodimentpractice is to bring a little
bit of awareness to when thatemotional response starts to be
(04:36):
triggered. When am I triggeredand it's minor irritation versus
when am I triggered and it's afull blown rage? So I'm curious,
what are some of the
Timothy Bish (04:51):
things that you perceive that can trigger anger
in you? I believe anger is anindication that one of our
boundaries is being has beenviolated or is being violated or
on the precipice of beingviolated. So when I'm having
that experience, I start tothink about, well, what what is
(05:15):
happening in this moment? So canyou can you restate your
question one more time?
Eric Bomyea (05:21):
Yeah. So I'm I'm I guess, what can anger signify?
Right? And like, what are thosethings? You just started talking
about boundaries.
So like, you know, a crossboundary can create that
emotional response of anger.
Timothy Bish (05:34):
So what's interesting is, you know, one of
the reasons in men's work wetalk about boundaries and edges
is understanding our capacity,what we're willing to accept,
what we're not. But we oftendon't know that. So with anger,
we I think a lot of people canhave and have had the experience
of, I'm feeling really angry andI'm not even entirely sure why.
(05:56):
I think when we do thisexploration, we can start to
recognize, oh, I'm feeling angryabout a situation or a person or
or a something. And I caninquire, okay.
Well, like, what is happening?And there's real power in, oh,
that person is on the precipiceof crossing a boundary, or they
(06:18):
are they are pushing my limit tothe place where I may not be
able to maintain my composure.What if I were aware enough to
notice that and then takeconscious action in that moment
instead of waiting until theyhave fully pushed me over, which
they may or may not intend todo, And then I am in full
(06:39):
reaction where everything is redand intense when it may be the
case that they didn't do it onpurpose and they they didn't
realize they were crossing aboundary because I wasn't aware
that it existed.
Eric Bomyea (06:52):
Being able to have the awareness to then be able to
work with it, to say like, Okay,hey, there's a boundary right
here and I'm starting to get alittle flared. I'm starting to
feel maybe a little bit of heatin my body. I've experienced
anger as a very fiery emotion.So I start to experience heat. I
start to really I can feel myblood pressure rising.
(07:14):
So just being aware of thosebodily sensations, that somatic
experience that's happeninginside of my body can give me
enough of a little bit of apause to be like, Okay, what's
happening here? Is it aboundary? Is it another
suppressed emotion? Could it bean injustice that I'm feeling, a
betrayal? Maybe there's afrustration or a powerlessness
(07:35):
that I'm experiencing.
What is happening in my fieldright now that is causing my
body to start to feel this way?
Timothy Bish (07:42):
I love that you said that because this is why
embodiment practice, yogicpractice is so important. It
creates a dialogue with our bodyto get the signals. And anger,
those signals tend to be prettybig. I'm I'm red in the face.
I'm hot.
I'm agitated. Some people, me inparticular, I feel like a
(08:04):
digestive sort of stomach y kindof experience when I'm when I'm
having anger. And so if we cantap into that, we can start to,
oh, wait. I'm starting to feelthis thing. Can I take a look?
Can I can I start to becomecurious about why why am I
starting to feel this agitationor this heat? So our ability to
(08:28):
reconnect to our own body andour sensations can be an
indication that I am nearinganger without being overcome by
it.
Eric Bomyea (08:36):
Yeah. Something has tripped the wire, right, and has
caused this sensation to happeninside of my body. And now it's
like, okay, before I let theentire thing explode, can I go
in and identify what it is andprevent the full destructive
force from being unleashed?
Timothy Bish (08:55):
Right. And what's important to remember is that
anger and full rage or fullprotective engagement isn't
always bad. So I wanted to bringthis there's a the teaching in
yoga of Ahimsa, non harming, asI understand it, is to cause the
(09:19):
least amount of harm possiblewhenever possible. And, you
know, a yogi will work hard toconsider that in in as many ways
as they can. That could meanphysically attacking,
restraining, or potentially evenmurdering, a gunman who is
(09:41):
capable in that moment of mowingdown, you know, any number of
people.
Now I suspect any yogi, myselfincluded, would prefer not to
take that action if they could.But in that moment, some
righteous or justifiable angerwould be fuel in service to a
(10:03):
higher good. Right? So so whenwe think about anger, I don't
want us to think about anger asa bad thing. I want us to think
about it as a thing that needsto be respected, understood, and
worked with.
And I think the example I usedlast night, which I really like
I just made it up, by the way,but no one's mad that the stove
(10:26):
is hot, that it's eitherelectric heat or or flame. No
one's mad about that. But we allunderstand, oh, this has a
purpose and a and a a place inhere, but it demands our
attention. And, you know, even,you know, regular cooks and and
parents who do this all thetime, remember, I have to be
(10:49):
mindful. I have to watch whereI'm putting my hands.
I have to watch that part of thepot if it might be hot. I have
to be mindful of these things. Ithink anger is the same. I'm not
mad at anger in the way that I'mnot mad at the stove, but I have
to use it mindfully. And then,you know, with the stove, we
have understandings.
Well, where do I put the the pothandle? You remember that, like,
thing for kids, like, the pothandle should be away so they
(11:11):
can't grab it and all thisstuff. We need a same set of
tools to approach and work withanger because anger isn't going
anywhere.
Eric Bomyea (11:21):
Yeah. I love that analogy so much because it's
like I don't when I'm cooking,like, I'm not ignoring the
flame. Right? Like, I'm veryaware that the flame exists, and
then I leverage it to accomplishwhat I'm trying to accomplish.
Right?
Timothy Bish (11:35):
I would argue you're even grateful Yeah. That
it's there because of whatyou're trying to accomplish
Absolutely. When placedconsciously.
Eric Bomyea (11:42):
Yes. Mhmm.
Timothy Bish (11:42):
So exactly.
Eric Bomyea (11:43):
Right. But not ignoring it. Right? Like, even
if I've even if I've gottenburnt before by my stove, I I do
not ignore the heat of thatstove. Sometimes I might get a
little unconscious of it and Imay be a little in my own world
or somewhere else and I'm notthinking about it and I get a
little bit forgetful of it orI'm just not paying full
(12:05):
attention and then I might get alittle burn.
I might grab the handle of thatpot and be like, Oh, that's hot.
I forgot. Right? Because Iwasn't bringing my awareness to
it. But, you know, not notignoring it, not pretending like
it doesn't exist.
It's there, and it's serving apurpose.
Timothy Bish (12:22):
Well, and the nature of this particular
emotion is that it willimmediately remind you. So you
grab the pot, a little you werea little distracted. You were
you know? And you will bereminded immediately. Anger is
big and powerful and has atendency to remind us quickly
when we become unconscious ofit.
(12:43):
I think that feels true in my inmy observation and personal
experience.
Eric Bomyea (12:49):
Yeah. I wanna go back to the example you gave of
the active shooter, right? Andusing conscious rage to take
action. And so I think it's avery scary example, but I
actually think that it's a goodexample to work through because
it can help us to identify someof the things in which anger can
(13:12):
signal. So I start to think ofanger can signal an unmet need.
So in that case, I have an unmetneed for safety. So all of a
sudden triggered, right? I'vegot this thing that's inside of
me that's alive. I also thinkof, you know, if that gunman is
coming in, I think that it's aninjustice. It's a betrayal.
It's a betrayal of our sharedunderstanding of common spaces
(13:34):
and how we are going to interactas a society and the politeness
and the way that we should treatpeople.
Timothy Bish (13:41):
Respect for life.
Eric Bomyea (13:42):
Respect for life. So now all of a sudden, I'm
reacting to that. Anger issignaling that there is a
misalignment of my values withtheirs. And so I think it
actually starts to help us in anextreme example understand some
of the things that can have anangry response. Right.
Timothy Bish (14:06):
And it is an intense example, but it allows
us to understand that even angerat a 10 isn't necessarily bad.
So I get nervous about peopleputting value judgments on
emotions at certain intensities,but rather think about them in
(14:28):
the context and with consciousawareness and application. So it
may be the case that anger at a10 only has a very few specific
circumstances in which it isappropriate, but it still has
some. There is no that's all badwhen we think about the
(14:53):
emotional human experience thatwe're all talking about here.
Eric Bomyea (14:57):
There are some times though that I've
experienced in my life growingup. Like I was a very reactive,
emotionally unregulated child.My emotions were very large. And
so what maybe would have been aminor irritant or a one or a two
on the anger scale to somechildren was a full 10 for me.
(15:19):
So I think trying to find waysin which to kind of bring that
down a little bit, bring thatdial down so that my reaction
isn't as large and so that I canunderstand what a 10 looks like
and when it might be appropriateto go to that 10 versus how do I
(15:40):
regulate myself a little bitmore so that the minor
infractions don't become a 10?
Timothy Bish (15:46):
Well, this is why we need people who can model it
and to give us tools because thechild needs guidance. They need
communication. They need tools.They need to understand
boundaries. And but it is notthe child's responsibility as
far as I understand it to beable to figure that out in that
(16:08):
moment.
Oh, I'm irrationally angry rightnow, and now I need to, you
know, engage my own tools. No.The child needs a guardian to
help them understand what theirexperience is. And I think most
of us didn't have that. So firstand foremost, the the child that
(16:29):
you described, your your youngself, like, you know, dear young
Eric, right, wasn't doinganything wrong, was was trying
to figure out their theirexperience and and was needing
guidance in that.
And that guidance could bestern, you know, if it needs to
be from a from a guardian. Butcontext around anger is okay,
(16:51):
but this is too much. Like,these feelings are valid. Like,
here's some stuff we can do. Andthat's why we're having the
conversation.
So now because everybody in thecircle last night and the night
before, agreed that they didn'thave a really healthy model of
(17:15):
anger, and they weren't taughttools to navigate it. Every
single person in the circle inthe last two days now this is a,
you know, small sample, buteveryone agreed. So that leads
me to believe, and based onother observations that I've had
in working with lots of men indifferent ways, I do not believe
most of us have had thatmodeled. And so how do we learn
(17:38):
it?
Eric Bomyea (17:39):
Well, I'm curious. I have a pretty clear
understanding from my ownexperiences and my own family,
right? Like what uncontrolledanger looks like or unconscious
anger, right? Like me, myself asa non rational kid, like going
with big reactions. My father isa very angry person, self
(18:00):
claimed.
That is one of his crutches. Heloves to use it. I'm angry
because my father was angry. Iwas like, Okay, great, cool. But
also, let's him off
Timothy Bish (18:08):
the hook.
Eric Bomyea (18:09):
Right. So I've seen lots of modeled you know,
unconscious anger. But I'mcurious, like, what does the
conscious use of anger looklike? Like, if you were to model
that for me, what would it looklike?
Timothy Bish (18:23):
Well, I feel like I have modeled it for you. I
can't remember when this was,but we were recording an episode
and we were in a differentunderstanding of what we were
talking about, and I I gotangry. Right? But what did I do?
I paused.
I stood up. I shook. I said, Ithink we need to take a break. I
(18:46):
stepped away. Right?
That's one example. I I don'teven I'm not even gonna suggest
that that was the best way.Maybe there were even better
ways to do it. But I've hadteachers of mine, my teacher,
Amir Kalighi. I was in aretreat.
We were gonna go into a sweatlodge. And I had this image of
(19:06):
what this sweat lodge was gonnabe, and I thought it was gonna
be like a big sauna. And I waslike, it's gonna be hot. And I
don't like it when it's hot, butI can can deal with hot. And
then I get there, and we're alllike all these men that I've
been training with, we're all inour bathing suits sort of ready
to go in every you know?
And I see this hut. I don't It'snot a hut. I don't you know,
(19:29):
it's a lodge, and it's like fourfeet tall and completely dark.
And I start I'm like, wait. So Istart looking.
I'm like, are there stairs? Dowe go down? Like, is, you know,
is this a stairwell down? Youknow? It turns out, no.
It is not a stairwell down. Itis a very short, very cramped
(19:51):
space into which lots of menwearing almost no clothes come
in. And then some guy, hopefullyyou trust him, starts
pitchforking in fired lava rock
Eric Bomyea (20:04):
Mhmm.
Timothy Bish (20:05):
To heat this room really intensely. And then when
when that's all done, they closethe door and it's pitch black.
Oh my gosh. And myclaustrophobia, what I was like.
And I went in and I was like Iwas sitting next to Amir.
Amir was like, come sit next tome. This will be fine. And then
at one point, I'm like, I can'tdo this. Anyway, long story
short, I left and then felt likea failure
Eric Bomyea (20:27):
and
Timothy Bish (20:29):
was out there so mad. And I was like, I'm gonna
fucking leave. Like, fuck thisshit. Like, someone should have
told me this blah blah blah, youknow, clearly in a full trigger.
And then a friend of mine cameout and talked to me, and I was
like, I'm leaving.
I'm done. Like, fuck this. Ihate you know. Mhmm. Know?
And then finally, America do it.And I was like, I need to talk
to you. And he was like, okay.And we went into his room, and
(20:54):
he was steady enough to take methrough a process, a process
that included me grabbing apillow and screaming and, like,
punching and moving this energythrough me. And then I really
like telling the story because Ihad that moment, and I was like
I was and I'm like, okay.
I wasn't fully calmed, but I'mlike, okay. Enough to leave and
(21:19):
leave the room and say, okay.I'm not leaving. I can do this.
And then the next day, so manythings happened that, like,
allowed for, like, healing andtransformation.
But it was because he was ableto stand there with me, see me,
like, raging at him. Like, youshould have fucking told me
(21:41):
this, you know, like, this wasyour responsibility, blah blah
blah blah. And, of course, I'm,like, raging at him because he's
every man that never told me allthe things I needed to know.
Right? And he was able to holdit, breathe with me, lead me
through a thing, and move thecharge.
And from that, I stayed and thenhad transformational healing. So
I think when we think aboutdealing with anger, well, can
(22:05):
you have a person who can watchthe storm happen and then and
stay? And not he didn't stormback at me. He didn't match me
with, you know and I wasn't Iwasn't attacking him in the
sense of, like, I wasn'tcriticizing him. I was kind of
expressing my own but he he wasa steady force.
(22:30):
That, I think we all need that,and we need we need space to to
recognize that that's helpful.We need the space to recognize
the extent to which we can dothat, and we also need space to
recognize that in our attempt todo that, we may fail.
Eric Bomyea (22:45):
And thank you for sharing that example and walking
us through it. I mean, being inthat moment, it sounds like to
me that there was almost abetrayal. Walked into a
situation and were eitherexpecting something or there was
I think you said it like youshould have told me. We should
(23:07):
have been aware of what we werewalking into because
Timothy Bish (23:10):
Up until five minutes before that happened, I
had no clue that myclaustrophobia was about to be
triggered. Yeah. It just never Ithought, oh, I'm gonna have to
sit through the heat and, like,kind of breathe and, like,
manage that. I'm because I'm,like, a very fiery person. Like,
that's gonna be hard for me.
Claustrophobia was never on myradar. And then suddenly it was
like front and center. Like, youare you are gonna be trapped in
(23:33):
a dark space with like lavarocks.
Eric Bomyea (23:35):
Yeah. Like, I can I could I could trust the
situation that I had presentedin my head? Right? However,
right, like, you are presentinga new vision for me that I do
not trust. There is now abetrayal.
Right? Like, this was not what Isigned up for.
Timothy Bish (23:48):
Be clear, by the way, I want to go a little
deeper into the details. This isthe lava rocks existed in the
center of this round sort of,like, low yurt. Right? And they
I think there was, like, alittle row of rocks, I can't
quite remember, into which theserocks were. But I'm like, oh, if
I had been at a different partof the circle and it was pitch
(24:12):
black, I could haveinadvertently crawled over,
like, lava rocks that had justbeen fired.
I mean, it was it was kind of areally like, a legitimately
scary position even if you don'thave claustrophobia. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (24:27):
And I I and I'm I'm I'm tracking this because it's
like there's so many things thatyou stand for. Or you stand for
safety of bringing people intoawareness of the experience that
they may be going through. Andby you seeing that situation,
you're like, this is actuallyunsafe. This could potentially
be very dangerous. That's avalue of yours.
(24:47):
And this entire experiencepushed you to that edge, that
boundary of like, I do not agreethat spaces should be unsafe.
And to me, the space is unsafe,so I'm feeling anger towards it
and also claustrophobia and alsoright?
Timothy Bish (25:02):
Yeah. And you're describing it very well. I will
say in generosity to my teacherand the experience that he's
creating, if claustrophobiaisn't a thing, it may not
register, and you might needsomeone to bring it to your
awareness. So I can understandhow a very well intentioned
person could think we're justgonna go in here and, like, do
(25:25):
the spiritual practice. Andthey're not thinking, well, what
if I have to crawl out of here?
And will I burn myself on, youknow, volcanic rock in the
process? Because that isn't thatisn't a fear he's got. It's not
on his radar. So I wanna bereally generous about that. I
(25:47):
was angry, I think justifiablyso, And I think that he heard me
when I expressed it.
But I I I just want to be clear.I I still think he was doing his
best to create a safe container.
Eric Bomyea (26:00):
And this is this is not a jab at that. I'm just I'm
and I'm valid I want to validatethat, the emotion, the anger,
super justified by saying thereare these things that what I'm
hearing are certain things thatyou hold dear that were not
(26:21):
like, respected in a way. Right?And it may not have anything to
do with him. Right?
Like his right? This is justlike this is your experience.
And
Timothy Bish (26:29):
Well, is the importance, I think, of, like,
understanding our edges, ourboundaries, our capacities, and
how we can utilize it. Because Iwasn't aware until that moment,
oh, I really value the abilityto leave whenever I need to. In
that moment, it became clear,oh, I I don't feel like I can
(26:51):
leave if I need to, and now Ihave an experience of that. And
in this moment, my experiencewas fear and anger. Yeah.
Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (27:01):
And both of those things are survival mechanisms,
right? And I think that's a lotof what we're talking about is
how do we recognize whensomething is triggering or
starting to encroach upon oursurvival instincts. And we meet
it with anger as a signal toourselves to be like, Hey, I
don't like that. Something aboutthat doesn't align with who I
(27:25):
am. And then from there, whatconscious action can I take?
Timothy Bish (27:29):
Right. And so just to complete the story then,
because I think it's relevantnow that what you after what you
just said, the agreement thenext day was that I was gonna go
back and do it again. But I hadspoken about my need for a
certain amount of control inorder to feel safe, so I was
going to be the man pitchforkingthe stones. And and then that
(27:52):
meant that I could be right bythe door. And then if I needed
to, I could I I had agency toopen the door and and pop out if
I needed.
Whereas where I was the firstnight, I was a few men down, and
it would have meant crawling inthe dark over their laps. Now in
where I was seated, to be clear,there was no threat of me
crawling on the rock. But if Ihad been in a different place,
(28:15):
there might have been. And sothat was the arrangement, and I
was gonna go ahead and do it. Idid the training to to put the
rocks in because you have to becareful.
Eric Bomyea (28:25):
Yeah. Mean You know?
Timothy Bish (28:26):
These are lava rocks that we just took out of
the fire. And then later in thatexperience, I learned that there
was another man who was gonna doit who had arguably equal or
greater claustrophobia than Ihave. And because of all the
(28:46):
work that we had done, I said toto Amir, I said, you know, I
think the best course right nowis to let him do it. And so I
approached him, talked to himabout it. He agreed, and I think
the greatest good was served.
So two days later, I felt likean enormous amount of growth and
(29:07):
transformation had happened, butin part because anger came up
and I had someone who wascapable of holding it
Eric Bomyea (29:16):
and allowing me to work through it. And and
modeling, like, how to work withsomebody through that intense
emotion. And so
Timothy Bish (29:25):
now Before you go on, because I know you're about
to just because anger could havecould have made me leave, but I
know I would have had a feelingabout that. There would have
been a part of me that wouldhave felt justified in leaving
because I was justifiably angry.There would have been another
part of me that had felt like Iquit or I would have maybe shame
(29:46):
and all this other stuff. Theprocess of being able to be as
angry as I was and then have aconscious practice to work
through it, I think, was thething that got me to that place
that felt really good. If I hadgotten to a car, which I could
have done, and left, I I wouldhave felt justified.
(30:08):
I also know I would not havefelt as good as
Eric Bomyea (30:11):
I ended up feeling. And being able to sit with it
and work through it and thenallow it to be discharged
through you and then channeledinto a learning opportunity and
an opportunity for growth.Beautiful. And so with a lot of
this work, it really is youteach me, I teach somebody else.
(30:33):
It's kind of like the lineageaspect of it of you were modeled
something and now you have theopportunity to now model that.
So now curious, if a man came toone of your circles struggling
with explosive or repressedanger, where would you start in
helping to work with it?
Timothy Bish (30:49):
I would need a more specific question because I
suspect lots of men come tocircle. Circles, mine or others,
and they are struggling withanger. So are you asking me
about someone who's gettingexplosively angry in Circle, or
they are coming to Circle tohelp work on
Eric Bomyea (31:10):
their anger? Okay. Let's start with let's let's
break this down then. So let'ssay it's a personal one on one
coaching client who'sspecifically coming to you
because, hey, I've recognizedthat I have some tendencies
towards explosive anger. I mayhave some repressed anger.
Like, I wanna work with you.Where do we start?
Timothy Bish (31:29):
I would start by becoming curious about how like,
where they start to feel angerand how. What makes you angry?
What? And start to look forpatterns. You know, typically, I
can get angry.
This is an example in thecircle. Like, oh, someone cuts
(31:50):
me off in traffic. I can getangry about that. But is it a
pattern of mine? A lot of themen in the circle, it is a
pattern of theirs.
And I'm not me personally, Tim,I am not quick to road rage. It
doesn't seem very, like,fruitful or, you know, useful in
any way. Doesn't bother mesuper, like, a lot. So what what
(32:17):
creates anger in yourepetitively over and over and
over again? Where do where doyou find it?
And then how do you experienceit? So step one would be
recognizing, oh, I get angryevery time someone speaks to me
this way. Once we start toidentify those things, you can
say, okay. Well, what I'mhearing is that you get angry a
(32:40):
lot when someone speaks to youin a particular way. And then we
start to go the next level.
Like, well, what's underneaththat? And what's underneath that
is, are you feelingdisrespected? Are you feeling
unheard? Are you feeling unseen?And we start to get we start
going to the root.
And, you know, with the yogapractice, my teachers always
said yoga is a radical practicebecause we are looking for the
(33:04):
root. We're looking for the rootof what's happening and to
address the root. And this isthe same idea. So so you might
think, don't like it when peopletalk to me in a certain way.
Chances are that's not the root.
And the root is, oh, you don'tyou feel disrespected or you
feel unheard or you feel, youknow, mistreated, whatever
Eric Bomyea (33:25):
the thing is. An unmet need.
Timothy Bish (33:26):
Yeah. And then we start to get deeper and deeper.
What's that thing? Okay. Andwhen we when we have a sense of
what that thing is and how itoccurs in our body, then we can
start to first look at it andrecognize it, but then also
start to work with that.
So when that happens, here'sthis tool or practice or this
(33:47):
tool or practice that you canstart to work with because it
doesn't mean it's gonna stopannoying you, bothering you.
Eric Bomyea (33:55):
Okay. We take that.
Timothy Bish (33:57):
Right. You don't have to be you don't have to be
a reaction to it.
Eric Bomyea (34:00):
Right. Like, I go back to, like, me as a child,
like, can I take that 10 down toa two?
Timothy Bish (34:05):
Right? The
Eric Bomyea (34:07):
thing is still going to happen that is going to
create some anger inside of me.There's going to be an anger
reaction. But instead of thatthing, let's just take, you
know, somebody cuts me off intraffic. Instead of me going all
the way to a 10
Timothy Bish (34:25):
Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea (34:26):
How can I, next time it happens, maybe go to a
two?
Timothy Bish (34:29):
Yeah. But that's really generous. I think we are
saying, if you're at a 10, can Iget you to an eight? And just
that space, you might be able tothink about, well, what is the
consequence of that thing I wantto do so badly? I wanna scream
at you.
I want to lay on my horn. I wantto block you on something. You
(34:55):
know? And that space allows youto be like, do I really wanna do
that? Even the space to be like,should I put my phone down and
go, like, lay down for a minute,put some music on?
So, yes, ideally, ten to two. Ilove that. Like, also smart
driving. Right? Yeah.
(35:15):
Yeah. But I think I think,additionally, reducing it any
amount to create a little bit ofspace will help most of us not
make a rash decision that wewill then regret. Thank you.
Eric Bomyea (35:32):
I think that's really valuable to start there
and working your way down theladder, so to speak. The next
part of the question, whathappens if there's somebody that
comes to circle that has anexperience similar to the one
that you had? How do you thinkyou would handle that today?
Timothy Bish (35:52):
If a person came and had an experience similar
the one that I had with Amir, Iwould hopefully meet them in the
way that he met me. Deeppresence groundedness,
curiosity, allowance. So tostart with this, Amir never once
(36:17):
indicated that my emotionsweren't welcome. Right. And he
never said, I don't or I don'tremember if he was like, your
anger is welcome here.
It's allowed. But I felt that.So I'm like, okay. I think I
would meet it with with thosethings.
Eric Bomyea (36:37):
Powerful, like the allowance of it, the recognition
of it. We're not going to ignorethis. We're not going to try to
suppress this. We're going totry to move it. It is welcome
here.
Timothy Bish (36:49):
I will say, and that it's the moving of it that
I think is so powerful for men.And I talked about this, you
know, there is a physiologicalcascade of things that happen
when we start to experienceemotions and anger. Like, our
nervous system and our endocrinesystem start to prepare us in in
different ways. And the movingof it is so important with
(37:13):
movement, with breath. It's whywe feel better when we box,
which I want you to talk aboutin a second, or do a killer
workout or take a long walk or,you know, any number of things.
I was in an a retreat whereanother man got triggered, and
the response was some version ofsacred combat. He was given the
(37:37):
opportunity to push up and exertforce against a person who was
exerting force back and workingthrough that emotion in this
safe way to move it. And thenfrom that moving of it, enough
space had been created that hewas able to step into a powerful
(38:01):
choice. I don't wanna go deeperinto these details about that,
but that ability to move it in asafe, conscious way allowed for
a powerful choice that servedthe greatest good for all. And
that, I think, is what we'regoing for.
Eric Bomyea (38:18):
Allowance, movement, not repression, not
ignoring. It's part of why Ibox. And I've shared this in
both circles that one of thepractices that I have found most
useful in my consciouschanneling of aggression and
anger is boxing. And I do it ina way that I'm creating a safe
(38:42):
container for myself to be ableto play with those emotions in a
way. I'm not going boxingbecause I'm currently angry.
I go boxing and I set myself upa container. Total workout is 12
rounds with three rounds ofboxing in each of those. 12
(39:07):
sets, three reps.
Timothy Bish (39:08):
I don't know. So it's 12 rounds.
Eric Bomyea (39:10):
Yeah. So there's 12 rounds of boxing and then
there's three
Timothy Bish (39:14):
sets in each round. Sure. I'm y'all, I'm
Eric Bomyea (39:17):
as you can clearly tell, like, I'm not the one to
talk fitness. Like, I I know themath, but I don't know the
names. Okay. Don't know the thethings. I have the whole thing
is 12, and then each of those 12is three.
Timothy Bish (39:29):
Got it. Yeah. So, yeah, we'll say each round Yeah.
Has three sets
Eric Bomyea (39:33):
Yeah.
Timothy Bish (39:34):
And you do 12 rounds. Yes. 12 rounds.
Altogether. Yes.
Yeah. So thirty thirty six sets.Yes. Got it. And how long is the
set?
Eric Bomyea (39:45):
A minute.
Timothy Bish (39:46):
And what do you do in that minute?
Eric Bomyea (39:47):
So it's different boxing combinations, Jab cross,
Jab cross hook, and they buildin progression. So what happens
is the first round is usuallyone one to two punches. And then
the second round willincorporate one
Timothy Bish (40:05):
to two more. When you say, like, kinds of punch.
Yeah. So jab, cross. And then a
Eric Bomyea (40:12):
hook, and then an uppercut. Yeah. So and then
different places where it may belike a body or a head. So
different areas that they couldbe placed. And so what that
progression allows though isthat, again, I'm not going into
boxing to say, I need to moveenergy because I'm angry.
It's like, I'm going to create acontainer in which my aggression
(40:35):
can slowly build. And so thenthrough that, as I'm starting to
move my body in a way that isreally forceful, the natural
heat starts to rise. There maybe a memory that pops up. There
may be something that pops upthat allows me to start to build
(40:56):
up that intensity, thataggression starts to build, that
anger can start to build. Andthen I have that set time, that
time container where I can gothere and then I come down.
And then I go there and then Icome down.
Timothy Bish (41:10):
So you're working with it as if you're in a
workshop.
Eric Bomyea (41:14):
Yeah.
Timothy Bish (41:14):
Yeah. I think that's what we a lot of the
practice we do is that verything. I put myself in a safe
place with structure so that Ican relax into that. And I think
the time structure that you justmentioned allows you to ramp up
and ramp down without you andthen you start to experience,
(41:39):
well, what does it feel like toto be to be connected in this
way at an at a six and then aseven and then an eight. Right.
And so the more you do that, themore you're gonna be able to
move through your life andrealize let's say something
happens fast. Like, oh, Iimmediately went to an eight.
(42:00):
Well, without any context,you're you're kind of at the
whim. Right? But with whatyou're describing and what we do
in embodiment work and yogicpractice is, oh, I went from
zero to an eight fast, and Ihave a sense of how I how I am
at an eight and what happens ifeight turns to nine so I can
(42:21):
start to make some choicesimmediately so that I I can be
the most conscious person I canbe.
And with me, that's stillprobably very red faced and very
passionate, but it's controlledor conscious.
Eric Bomyea (42:38):
And I can go as I'm building up, I start to
understand where also that lineexists, where I go into red
rage, where I go intodestructive anger. And I can
start to become very aware ofthat. And if I do allow myself
(42:58):
to cross over that, if I'm in aflurry, I'm round eight and I am
just feeling it and somethinghas unlocked and I am just going
to town on that bag and I'mlike, Rah! Coming back down.
Coming back to myself allows methen if in the real world
something does bring me up, Iknow that I can come down.
(43:22):
I can go there and then I canjust kind of bring myself back.
I can come back down to ease. Wejust talked with Julian about
this right, of coming back toourselves.
Timothy Bish (43:33):
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think that is an unbelievably
valuable skill that most of usneed to bring awareness to and
increase practice and to have acommunity where we can talk
about that. Because in thepracticing of it, as in the
(43:54):
practice of anything, we aregoing to fail.
That's the idea of why wepractice. We're like, can I test
the limit, see if I can do it?Oh, I got it wrong. I got it
wrong. Oh, now I got it right.
You know, that idea. And so canwe engage in that with this
emotion that sometimes feelslike we have limited permission.
(44:16):
And and if we get it wrong, wecan immediately feel like a
failure. So what if you didn't?What if what if I could talk to
someone who was also on theirjourney of deepening their
understanding and engagementwith anger, And I could get
their reflection without methinking, well, if I tell them
that I messed up, what if I toldthem I got a little unskillful
in that moment, they were gonnathink I'm a whatever and
(44:38):
everything's gonna crumble.
And instead, oh, no. Here's aman where I can say, I was doing
pretty well, and then thishappened, and I got too sharp
with my kids or with thiscolleague or whatever the thing.
You know? Because that's themoment of growth. Oh, so what I
heard was, what what could youdo next time?
And we're suddenly in a processthat I think is of benefit to
(45:03):
all people.
Eric Bomyea (45:03):
Absolutely. Being able to really share in that
experience and and recognizethat, like, many of us, myself,
I'll just speak to myself, likeI was ashamed of my anger. Anger
was used as a way to shame me.You are bad if you are angry.
And I looked at the world thatway too.
(45:24):
Looked at still this day, I'mworking through it. Like I think
of my father. Right? It's a veryangry man. And I think of him as
a bad man.
And I'm still working throughthat today. And I'm still trying
to unpack that today so that Ican work towards forgiving him
while also working on myself andmy own relationship with my
(45:46):
anger. And the allowance that Idon't have to suppress my anger,
that I can express it, and thatI can then talk with other
people about it.
Timothy Bish (45:58):
I think I'm listening to an audiobook right
now that reminded me of thisconcept where I think we will
all benefit, especially when itcomes to anger, when we start to
describe behavior, not people.So what I heard you say about
your about your dad, and I thinka lot of us can relate, oh, he
was an angry person. He was anangry drunk. He was an angry
(46:21):
whatever. And so I think of himas a bad man.
And for our own understanding ofthe emotion and the process and
moving forward, like, well, whatif he's not a bad man? But what
if his behaviors were bad?
Eric Bomyea (46:33):
Right. What about his behaviors didn't align with
my values that
Timothy Bish (46:39):
I disagree with. Right. And this then makes it
more empowering because, oh, Isaw exemplified behaviors I do
not want to exhibit, engage in,offer to others, perpetuate
exactly. And so but rather than,well, you're you're bad, I'm
(47:03):
choosing, and then what am Ichoosing? Well, I know I don't
want that.
So what's what what is thechoice I will make? Oh, I wanna
be more patient. I wanna be morecompassionate, more
understanding. I wanna be moreyou know, whatever the thing is.
And, again, I keep coming back.
So, like, why are we doing men'swork and embodiment practice and
shamanic work and yogic work? Todo that, to to create and
(47:25):
cultivate the experience and thecapacity within ourselves to be
the person we wanna be. Becauseit doesn't happen. It doesn't
just happen. You don't decide,I'm I wasn't compassionate, but
tomorrow I'm going to be, andthen from then on.
No. You have to practicecompassion and practice empathy.
(47:47):
And part of that practice isbecoming curious about it and
listening to other people'sexperience of it and letting
that inform you. And I thinkthis is in large part why our
elders are so important. Becausea lot of this is, oh, through
(48:08):
years and years and decades ofexperience, you have come to
understand these things, and youmight be able to offer me a bit
of a shortcut.
Now if you think about the life,let's assume assume that we all
live eighty years. And if anelder could give you a piece of
advice that would get you to anunderstanding even five years
(48:31):
sooner, that's kind of amazing.And then you could pass
Eric Bomyea (48:36):
it off to somebody else who could get it five years
earlier than that.
Timothy Bish (48:39):
Yeah. So if I if I get an insight when I'm I'm 46
right now. If I get an insighttoday that, you know, from an
elder that I trust that I wouldotherwise have to wait another
ten years, and I can startliving it now. And then I can
opt in you know? So this is thebenefit of having a community
where we can share ourexperiences and then have them
(49:02):
held and seen.
So that the I think theimportant thing here is when
you're the the new one with theleast amount of experience in
this kind of work, yourexperience is heard and seen and
held also. It isn't it isn'tcompared to that elder who's
been doing this practice forfifty years and, you know, is
(49:23):
this calm elderly presence thatwe've seen. No. You get to say
your thing too and then listento all this other stuff.
Eric Bomyea (49:33):
And be able to bring in that beginner's
experience as well. I think it'sreally beautiful to understand
that we can all learn somethingfrom each other. We can all
learn something from eachother's experiences to hopefully
navigate this world with alittle bit more ease, a little
bit more joy, and not control.Because I don't want to say
(49:59):
controlling emotions. I don'tbelieve emotions should be
controlled.
It's more like respected. Idon't think
Timothy Bish (50:08):
emotions being controlled. I think emotions can
be understood. I think they canbe collaborated with. Yeah. And
I think they can be directed viaconsciousness in in a variety
respectful way.
Yeah. So I think I think I likethat idea of the word control
(50:28):
not exactly right. Because if weif we think about controlling
them, at any moment when we havea big emotion, we may feel like
we're failing to control them.So, yeah, I'm in agreement with
you. Emotions come and go.
Mhmm. Oftentimes, we don't havecontrol over whether or not they
show up. We have control overhow we respond to their to their
(50:50):
showing up. In the same way thatwe get to respond to the
weather. Oh, it's raining, and Ican wear a raincoat or take an
umbrella or, you know, driveinstead of bike or, you know,
whatever the thing is.
But I can't I can't stop therain until it stops. So when we
have anger, I'll it's I'mexperiencing anger. So now what
(51:14):
do I like, what is my angerraincoat or my anger umbrella?
Mhmm. Because I'm not gonna Ican't just poof, anger is gone.
Right. But I can take somesteps.
Eric Bomyea (51:25):
I can't say every day is gonna be a sunny day, but
I can definitely say I can beprepared for when it is a rainy
day.
Timothy Bish (51:31):
So sunny is happy and anger is rain. Like, what
without let's go back to it.Like, what is sadness? Is it
snow?
Eric Bomyea (51:37):
Well, sadness ice. Yeah. So Okay. I'm just I did I
did have an opportunity to pullup Robert Frost's poem.
Timothy Bish (51:44):
Oh, yay.
Eric Bomyea (51:45):
So with that, just a quick little recap. We covered
anger today, and anger is reallypowerful. Anger is really
powerful and oftentimesmisunderstood. And I think that
with today's conversation, westarted to highlight that we can
build a relationship with ouranger. We can acknowledge that
(52:07):
underneath that anger issomething else.
And listening to what thatsomething else might be and
bringing curiosity to it canhelp us to make change in our
own lives and in the world.
Timothy Bish (52:19):
You you and I have both been in circles. I have
seen it happen so many times.Men will get into a chi
generator, and we are asked tohold this pose sometimes for
fifteen minutes, twenty minutes.I've heard 30 and Yeah. I have
seen anger, not just anger, butlike lot fuel someone to keep
(52:46):
going.
It can be so powerful. But inthat practice, we start to
understand our nuancedexperience of it and bringing
that nuanced experience. Soanger can
Eric Bomyea (52:59):
be
Timothy Bish (52:59):
powerful. Anger can be consciously directed.
Anger needs to be respected.Anger, I believe, needs to be
discussed, especially when it'sat its beginning stages so that,
oh, I'm starting to feel angry.And can we have an exploration
before I am, like, out ofcontrol?
(53:22):
And I think if we can start thispractice, there's a lot of power
to be had. And, you know, thisis a podcast for queer men and
queer people. I think a lot ofqueer people have a lot of
reason to be angry. Angry aboutwhat was expected of them and,
(53:42):
you know, being forced to denyparts of their truth. And so and
I think we we had thatexperience in a world where many
of us were still not allowed toexpress it.
So why why do we need men'sworkspaces and queer men's
workspaces for that purpose? Andwe saw it modeled yesterday and
(54:02):
the day before in the circle.The men there needed it because
it was a shared experience.
Eric Bomyea (54:11):
And and thank you for bringing the container for
us to have that sharedexperience to be able to say,
we're here to learn how to useanger as a tool of
transformation rather thanallowing it to be a destructive
force because it really can be.
Timothy Bish (54:28):
And I would the reason I brought it thank you
for saying that. The reason Ibrought it was because I have
been, you know, in the last fewweeks experiencing some anger of
my own. I wanna remind people asyou're working with anger, that
does not mean that it isn'tuncomfortable. Mhmm. I have been
uncomfortable in the last fewweeks and and months, and and I
(54:56):
am grateful that I have toolsand community to engage
consciously with this emotionand the discomfort that comes
with it.
So I'd like to just say quicklythank you to everyone who
supported me through thatprocess. And it is my hope now
to be that support for otherpeople, and then hopefully we
(55:16):
create a con a network ofpeople. We can all support each
other.
Eric Bomyea (55:21):
Right. You know, a bunch of steady oaks supporting
each other, you know, keepingkeeping each other's branches.
Be like, hey. I got you today,or you might have to get me.
Timothy Bish (55:29):
Is that is that rubbing the bark?
Eric Bomyea (55:31):
Yeah. No. No. No. That's my little branch.
My little branch going onsaying, like, I got you. Oh,
like I got you.
Timothy Bish (55:35):
Like little neurons? Okay. Yeah. Okay. Well,
let's wrap this up with thispoem.
Eric Bomyea (55:39):
All right.
Timothy Bish (55:39):
Well Wait. I got to laugh because I like your
little branch.
Eric Bomyea (55:43):
Yeah. Okay. All right. This is Fire and Ice by
Robert Frost. Some say the worldwill end in fire.
Some say in ice. From what I'vetasted of desire, I hold with
those who favor fire. But if Ihad to perish twice, I think I
know enough of hate to know thatfor destruction, ice is also
(56:04):
great and would suffice. Withthat, I'm feeling very complete.
How are you?
Timothy Bish (56:10):
I also feel complete. Will you take a sip,
please? I will. Closing our eyesand connecting to our breath. It
is with deep appreciation andgratitude for the shared space,
for these insights andawarenesses that may have come
that we release the sacredcontainer, wishing you all
safety, community, brotherhood,and love.
(56:31):
And with these words, containeris open but not broken. Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
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