Intimacy Without Sex: A Queer Conversation on Asexuality With Hannah O'Rourke

Episode Transcript
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Eric Bomyea (00:05):
Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go
all in on men's work, embodimentpractices, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. Ifyou're enjoying the show, please
be sure to share your favoriteepisode, leave a review, and
subscribe. And if you have aquestion about anything you've
heard us talk about, please sendus a note. We'd love to hear
from you. And now on to today'sshow.
Today we ask what happens whenwe take sex out of the center of

(00:27):
our conversations aboutidentity, attraction, and
intimacy? In this episode of TheCircle, we welcome Hannah
O'Rourke, a yoga teacher andearly childhood care provider
who identifies as asexual tohelp us explore a topic that's
often misunderstood even withinqueer spaces. Together, we
unpack the nuances of ace of theasexuality spectrum, the
difference between romantic andsexual orientation, and how

(00:50):
asexuality challenges ourassumptions about what it means
to be queer. Tim, Hannah, areyou ready to go all in?

Hannah O'Rourke (00:57):
Absolutely.

I'm ready. Let's do this. Well, first of all,
Hannah, welcome to the circle.Thank you so much for being with
us today.

Thank you.

And so I'm just wondering, can we start with
just sharing a little bit aboutyour personal journey and how
you came to identify as asexualand what that process was like
for you?

Yeah. So I probably started to identify as
with the label of asexualprobably around '23, '24. But
looking back, I realized thatthat has been my identity my
whole life. I just didn't havethe vocabulary or the language

(01:35):
to understand that that is whatit was. So, yeah, I would say
that it's like a little bit, youknow, realizing realizing this
about yourself in more of afinite way at an older age.
Not that 23 is old, but just,you know, having had pretty good

(01:56):
amount of life experience undermy belt by that point, it
definitely was a big shift inperspective while also being
really comforting, actually, tosort of be like, okay. This is
the why behind so many of thesequestions I've had growing up in

(02:16):
in my experiences, but just Ididn't have any language or
awareness of of that space.

Yeah. Could you bring us into some of those
questions that you had beenasking yourself?

Yeah. So, you know, for me, when I started
dating, I was around 14, 15. Andwhile I felt, you know, intense
romantic attraction andattachment to my high school
boyfriend, I also was aware thatthat was the thing I was the

(02:50):
most interested in. And whilesex was part of my life, I kind
of always was a little bit likeit felt like a means to an end.
Now granted, I was a teenagerflooded with teenage hormones.
And I think what some peopledon't understand with asexuality
is it's not as though, you know,those nerve endings at that

(03:12):
anatomy doesn't work. Right?It's not the same as a medical
issue with that. So it was alittle confusing because while I
would feel the pull to engage insexuality with my boyfriend,
there was always just somethingabout it where at a certain
point, I was like, okay, this iskind of boring. Like, I I'd
rather skip to the end, and wecan, like, cuddle and talk and,

(03:36):
like, go for a walk and hang outtogether.
So it was just a little bit Iwouldn't have been able to
describe it back then, but italways felt a little bit like
almost like, performative. Like,was aware because obviously
growing up in the two thousands,I mean, there's been peaks and
valleys, but it was one of theheights of, like, female kind

(03:57):
of, patriarchal viewpoint.Right? Like, you can remember,
like, the Victoria's Secretfashion show and

Christina, Britney, the low rise jeans that were
below the hips. Yeah.

That were basically exposing your crotch.
Yes. And and it was like thiswhole thing about, you know, you
want to appeal to the male gaze.That is how you are validated.
That's how you know your worthof something was to have the
adoration or the attention ofmen or, you know, in my case,
when I was that age of boys.

(04:31):
So, yeah, it was just sort oflike it felt as though I was
checking a box. It felt asthough I was sort of like, okay,
like, you know, he desires mesexually, therefore, I'm valid.
And that's what I would get outof it is a feeling of
validation. Not realizing thatfor other people, it was
actually more of a mutualendeavor. So that was sort of

(04:56):
like something that I couldn'tever articulate back then.
But now knowing what I know, I'mable to look back and say, oh,
the reason why it was almostlike, okay, like, I go to my
boyfriend's house, we hang out,we have fun, we have sex, and
then we get to, like, actuallyhave fun together. So it wasn't
that it wasn't like that. Itwasn't that it was non
consensual or anything likethat. It was just that it was

(05:17):
almost like I was missing a partof the script.

Timothy Bish (05:21):
So I'm really curious. Thank you for sharing
that. You know, as a young queerperson, I remember, at a certain
age, there was a lot ofconversation amongst the boys
about sex and sexual desire andthings you want to do or things
that you may have done. And I'dbe curious if you're open to
sharing a little bit about whatyou were hearing from your
contemporaries and and how thatfelt different. Because I have

(05:43):
to imagine it was giving yousome clues that, oh, something
here is not quite the same.
Am I right about that?

Yeah. I mean, definitely. So kind of
interestingly, whether or not itwas the particular boyfriend I
had at that time and whateverwas influencing him, which, you
know, back in that day also waslike the heyday of like I mean,
not heyday, but Internet pornwas like just kind of becoming

(06:09):
readily available. Right?

Phones were getting bigger again. Right.

And it's like all of a sudden, like, you know,
back then it not even phones,but it would be like, you know

Napster.

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. You were

on the peer to peer sharing networks, downloading
porn, and all the the upcomingwebsites.

Yeah. And it was kind of a new frontier.
Like, at this point, it's sooversaturated, and it's so like,
yeah, everyone has seeneverything, and it's whatever.
But back then, it was a littlemore new. And so I think that
that was influencing hisbehavior.
And so when I would talk with mywith my best friend who was also
in a sexual relationship withher boyfriend or just in general

(06:47):
with peers, there was alwaysthis point where they would say
like, oh, you know, we did fillin the blank. And I'd be like,
yeah. Like that's so duh. Likethat's so boring. Like the stuff
that my boyfriend and I weredoing looking back was probably
more the word.

(07:09):
Hardcore. Yeah. It was probablymore intense than the average
teenage sexual experience, butit didn't resonate that way for
me because honestly, all of sexkind of felt the same as like, I
don't Like, checking a box. Andit so it didn't have any impact.
Like, friend be like, oh my god.
My boyfriend, you know, wants totry anal, and I'm so nervous

(07:32):
about that. Oh my god. I don'tthink, like, what is what are
the implications of that? And Iwas like, like, literally, like,
have you washed your hairbefore? Like, dude, it means
nothing.
It didn't nothing had anyattached meaning for me. So I
did start to kind of clue in andbe like, oh, these things that

(07:53):
hold weight, emotional weight,and meaning to my peers, I'm
just kinda looking around like,yeah. Like, and and? Like, what
do you mean? What does thatmean?
It literally means just what itis. Mhmm. So I kind of started
to get clued in to be like, oh,okay. Like, my view on sex is a
bit different than my friends.But at the time, because women

(08:18):
were kind of praised for beinghypersexual at that point, I was
just like, oh, you know, I'mjust more mature than they are.
I'm just, you know, I just havea better handle on myself. I'm,
in fact, my narrative is I'mjust a very highly evolved
sexual person. I'm very sexual.And that's why all of this stuff
is par for the course.

Because that was probably the language that was
available at that time.

Exactly. That really was. There was no yeah.
There was no with in terms of,especially, like, female sexual
identity, it was either are menchoosing you as a sexual
partner, therefore, you'relegitimate and you're a valid
person, or it's are you able toplease men and keep them, you
know, engaged with you and notwanting to go elsewhere for

(09:01):
stuff. And there really wasn'tany focus on what is your
internal as a woman.
What's your internal experiencewith sex? So because there
wasn't any attention to that, Inever asked myself the question.
And I just sort of was like, oh,yeah. This is this is totally
just like, you know, state ofthe union. It's all it's all as
it is.

I'm really interested in what you just said
around, like, the internalfeeling around sex.

Mhmm.

And if you're open to it, letting us into your felt
experience around what doesromance feel like in your body
versus what does sex feel like?

Totally. So for me, romance in my body and I'm
honestly I'm not the mostromantic or sentimental person.
I do experience romanticattraction. But I'm not, you
know, I'm not like the if myhusband is gonna do something
romantic for me, it's not gonnabe like, oh, I got you flowers

(09:58):
and jewelry. It's gonna be like,I cleaned the whole kitchen.

Oh, acts of service.

Top to bottom. It is sparkling. And I'm like,
oh my god, that is so touching.I feel so cared for. I feel so
seen.

I also love an act of service.

Yeah. It's just Can relate. It's a little bit
more of that to me. But thatbeing said, for me, that is
romantic. Yeah.
Yeah. So romance feels to melike butterflies or the feeling
of like, oh my god, like, I'm soseen and cared for as a human of
I'm appreciated. Right. Whereassex, like I always say, if I'm
trying to explain asexualitypeople, I'm like, have you ever

(10:34):
had someone like you maybe youknow them kinda well, well
enough that when they see you,they give you a hug. And you
don't think twice about that.
You just give them that little,hey, how are you? Hug, and
that's it. And to me, it's likethat's kind of an equivalent of
how sex feels in my body, whichis like, I'm aware that I'm
hugging you. I'm aware thatwe're doing this. It's fine.
I've said yes. I'm comfortableto it. But that's pretty much

(10:56):
it. There's not a whole lot elsegoing on.

It's a really helpful description. Thank you.

I'm actually really impressed, because I feel
like in the gay male community,we we value sex so much, but,
you know, I think a lot of thathas to do with I'll speak for
myself. It was a means ofvalidation. It was a means of
feeling safe, you know, all thisstuff. And I wonder how many of
us could as clearly describe ourembodied experience of sex as

(11:27):
the one you just described. Youknow?
And and, course, in embodimentpractice, one of the main things
that we do is start to try tolisten and create a conversation
with our own physical body andour sensations so that we can
tap into these centers of wisdomand sort of bring everything
online. You just described it inwhat seemed like a very
thorough, understood way, andI'd be curious to know if we

(11:49):
asked if we, like, went on thestreet right now, like, what is
your embodied experience of sexfor people who are having a lot
of it and seeking a lot of it?I'd be I would be curious to
know how how, fluent they wouldbe in the in the language of
sensation around this topic.

Right. And it is an interesting thing because
as I said before, it's like, youknow, unless you have a medical
condition where you are unableto feel physically, you know,
objectively sex feels good.Right? And so for me, it's like
it was never like it wasphysically painful or
uncomfortable. It was like,yeah, okay.
This feels good. But it youknow, it's similar to like, oh,

(12:26):
I went and got a pedicure andthey rubbed my feet, and that
felt good too.

Mhmm.

Like, that's kind of Yeah. For me. And so
with other people I am, I alwayskind of not relating to the
other side of it. I am curious,like, does sex feel like a
connecting of souls? Does itfeel like a merging of two
entities?
Is it more just in the physicaltactile realm? Is it more in the
heady emotional realm? And I'dbe curious to know that answer

(12:52):
too. And I do kind of wonder howmany people have taken the time
to actually be like, okay,beyond the fact that it
physically feels good, what elseam I experiencing?

Yeah. I would say I think it can be all of the
things that you mentioned, and Ithink it depends on context and
the person. As I'm gettingolder, I find that an emotional
attachment is really the thingthat makes it extra hot. So as
you kind of said, well, sure, wecan go through the motions and

(13:23):
kind of like push some buttonsif we want, you know? Like for
me, that's, you know, but Iidentify as a demisexual, which
I believe is in the slice ofasexuality.
I don't I'm pretty sure that'sright. We could Google it. And
so for me, it's like that'sreally the thing. Yeah. And
without that, it still it stillcan it still happens.
Like, it can still be fine, butthen it's it's missing something

(13:45):
for me.

Totally. And I'll I'll share. I asked his
permission prior to this, but myhusband also identifies as
demisexual. So one of the thingsthat when we were first dating
and getting to know each other,you know, you share stories, you
get to know each other. And Iwould talk about having, like,
one night stands or whatever.
And he'd be like, I've never hadone of those. And I remember
being like, I mean, come on.There's no way. Like, you're you

(14:09):
can be honest with me. I'm notgonna judge you.
And he's like, no. I I literallynever have. It's not something
my body can do. He's like, Ihave to feel a connection. And
he was like, it's not to saythat I haven't had sex with
people that I wasn't in arelationship with.
He's like, but they've alwaysbeen friends. There has to be
some kind

Mhmm.

Of emotional connection. He's like,
otherwise, I just it doesn'tmake sense to me. No. So, yeah,
and that is under demisexualsunder the umbrella of
asexuality.

I thought so. Yeah. I got it. Well, so I'm
also curious if if we can stayhere for a second, you talked
about, sex can feel good. Thefoot rub also felt good.
Mhmm. But it occurs to me, like,there might be an assumption
that if you're asexual, it'skind of disgusting, and that's
not what I'm hearing. So myfirst question is, is that an

(14:57):
experience that you, like, bumpinto a lot, and what would you
well, how do you communicatearound that?

Yeah. So, you know, within asexuality,
asexuality is sort of think ofit as an umbrella. And then
within it is, as we talkedabout, demisexual, graysexual.
Like, there's all these kind of,like, little categories within
asexuality. And one of thosecategories is I forget the,
like, actual name.
I think I wrote down somewhere.But it's it's basically sex

(15:23):
repulsed. So for some people,that is their experience. Sex,
what I've read, is that sex canalmost like imagine something
that would sensory wise justoverwhelm you. So for me, that
would be walking through slimyseaweed.
Oh.

Yeah. That that created a visceral.

Right? It's so upsetting. I don't wanna think
about it. I certainly don'twanna do it. And if I had to do
it, I would be like, oh my god.
Oh, no. The whole time would behorrible. Yeah. And for people
that are identified as sexrepulsed, that is for them what
that would be. And then there'skind of more people like myself
that are not I don't wanna sayindifferent because I'm not

(16:05):
indifferent.
It's I just it's not myinclination to engage in
sexuality. But if, for example,my husband had said, you know, I
am just heterosexual, and Ican't be in a relationship with
someone that doesn't have thataspect, we I could have worked
with that. So there's kind of awhole branch. But for me,

(16:25):
actually, like, I wouldexperience repulsion if I had no
vested interest in it at all. Sofor example, if it was something
like, someone was like, oh, Ireally I'd like to have sex.
And in that moment, I was eitherfeeling overwhelmed, touched
out, tired. I wouldn't be ableto then say, okay, you know,

(16:46):
that's fine. Let's just do it.That would be repulsive to me.
But in other past experiences,it's kind of been something
where I'm like, if I'm in aspace where I am okay with it,
then it's fine.
I'm not really gonna getanything out of it, but I'm okay
with it.

I I would be interested. So is there a
component of the thing you mightget out of it is the offering of
something sacred to someonespecial, someone meaningful.

Yes. It's that you're it's an act of service to
somebody else. Right? It's that,you know, you're making them
feel good. You're filling theircup.
It but it really has nothing.It's not a two way street.

Yeah.

And then I've noticed though, as I've gotten
older, I think a lot about thisquote, that Kim Cattrall from
Sex and the City said, which islike, I basically, it's like, if
I'm not having fun, I don'twanna do it for even a moment.
And as I've gotten older, that'shonestly been more my
experience, which is like, I'vebecome less like, oh, like, let
me pour into your cup in thisway.

Mhmm.

And luckily, because my husband is also on
the asexual spectrum, you know,this works. But I think if I was
with someone that expected aheteronormative sexual
experience, at this stage in mylife, it would breed quite a lot
of resentment. Because it wouldfeel like I can give I have so
many other things to give thatwill make you feel comforted,

(18:13):
safe, loved, doted on. It's justnot gonna be a sexual release.
And a little bit, if you needthat, like, how about it?
You have a hand. Right. Youdon't need me. And, you know,
but it's interesting. Like, whenmy husband and I were just
dating, and I was sort of havingthis realization about myself, I
had the thought where I waslike, if I say to him, you know,

(18:34):
I'm realizing I'm asexual.
And although the sex we havetogether is enjoyable because I
know it's fulfilling for you,doesn't really do a lot for me.
And then sometimes I can feelalmost like burdened by it.
Because it's kind of like, youknow, the same way that if
someone was like, oh, like, I'mso overwhelmed by my chores. And
you're like, well, I'll do yourlaundry for you. And the

(18:56):
friend's like, oh, that makes mefeel so good.
Thank you. But then every week,they're like, did you do my
laundry? Mhmm. You'd be like,no. Fuck off.
Like, do your own laundrysometimes. And so my husband, I
kind of had this conversation. Iwas like, this is where I'm at.
You know, if this is an issuefor you, if it's a deal breaker
for you, we can explore otheroptions, other ideas. But this

(19:19):
is where I'm at, and I'm notreally willing to budge that
much.
And luckily for him and for me,he was very open to that
conversation. But, you know, Ithink that at this stage in my
life, I've given enough in thatarena Right. It feels.

I'd love to share a story because I, I can relate.
I think this might be thedemisexual in me. I don't know.
But I was dating this person, anex of mine, and was about to go
away for a month to film a moviein North Carolina. Was living in
New York City.
I was gonna go to NorthCarolina. And my my ex, my

(20:00):
boyfriend at the time, he waskind of jealous and worried that
I was gonna be gone. So rightbefore I was leaving, he was
trying to have, like, all thesex, so much sex. And I I don't
know if I'm like, if the idea isthat you're gonna sort of give
me all the

Tire you out?

Tire me out. Yeah. Yeah. So that I don't have this
compulsion later. I'm like,don't think it really works that
way.
But I remember, the reason Ibring it up is I started to feel
burdened by it. I'm like, thisthis isn't how I would rather
have had one really, like, sweetmagical moment than to try to
have seven, like, check it offthe list kind of moments. And I

(20:36):
remember there was a point Iwas, like, annoyed because I'm
like, this isn't how this issupposed to be in in my head, my
heart, or my body. Yes. And so Ican relate to that, like, well,
if I'm gonna do it, it's gottabe because there's something in
it for me.
And if what's in it for me isjust Validating you. Yeah. And,
like, making you feel lessjealous and then also

(20:58):
recognizing that isn't how thatworks. Yes. In two days from
now, I could potentially findsomeone attractive.
I mean, like Right. This isn'tgonna work the way you want it
to, but

100%. No. I totally relate to that. And it's
it is that feeling of almostlike, I don't know, like, if you
were caring for someone that wasill, and they had like a little
bell to ring when they neededyou. And it was like, they ring
the bell, you bring them a glassof water.
You get back to the kitchen, andas you step back in the kitchen,
they're like, ding ding ding.You're like, oh my god. Like,
again? Like, what do you want?And it's kind of like, exactly.

(21:29):
It's sort of like, if the ifthere was gonna be something in
there where you were like, Iknow you're insecure. Let's have
this really special moment andreaffirm, get rid of that
insecurity, kind of like havethat feeling of togetherness to
reassure you. That's somethingwhere you're like, okay, yeah,
I'm I'm willing to give that toyou because I care about you.
But then beyond that, you'rejust like, dude, what do you

(21:50):
want?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Exactly.

Full disclosure, I am kind of that person in
relation. I'm not that I I amnot somebody that can easily go
out and hook up and I do have tohave a I don't know if it's an
emotional connection, but it hasto be safe. I have to feel safe
with somebody in order for mybiology to work. If I don't feel

(22:14):
safe, I'm not getting a boner.It's just not gonna happen.
I will be in my head in fight orflight mode and it's just not
gonna happen. I have to havethat safety with the person. And
then once I have it, I'minsatiable sometimes. I am like,
I am that person with the ding,ding, ding. Right?
Because it it is such anintimate moment because then

(22:36):
there might be a moment of greedthere coming in of like, oh, I
feel so intimate. I feel sosafe. I wanna hold on to this
safety. Yeah. And so this is away that I keep getting my
safety met.
Yeah. Right? Or my intimacy met.

And I think for a lot of people that is the
case. That like, you know,there's a lot of it's, you know,
interesting crossover betweensexual proclivity and attachment
theory.

Mhmm.

And how does that how does your personal way
of attaching to people play outwithin that scope or I think
that but a lot of people, as youjust said, you can identify. I
need to feel emotionalconnection. But then once I feel
that, it's so wonderful. It's sogreat that I just wanna re up it

(23:17):
all the time. And I think thatbut that's like a question you
have to ask yourself.
I think a lot of people, if theywere to say people that would
describe maybe their sex life asbeing unfulfilling or not what
they hope it would be, myquestion to them be like, well,
what are what are you hoping toget out of it? Because if you're
just as a culture, we're sohypersexualized that I think

(23:39):
it's just like, well, I don'tknow. I'm hoping to get sex out
of it. It's like, okay. Butlike, if you're not feeling
fulfilled or satisfied by thatexperience, what's missing?
Right? And like for me, when Iasked myself what's missing, the
answer was I just don't careabout this. And what you were
saying about, like, if youhaving to have a sense of safety
or whatever, interestinglyenough, like for me, I didn't

(24:02):
need to feel safe, quoteunquote. I mean, I needed to
feel like the person wasn'tgonna kill me or, like, you
know, that I wasn't, like, youknow, the Craigslist killer's
next victim. Yeah.
But it really because there wasno there was no deeper meaning
to sex for me that other thanthe physical act. Like I said,
like, when my husband was like,you've had one night stands? I'm
like, well, yeah. Like

Have you hugged somebody?

Yeah. Exactly. Like, have you said hey on the
street to somebody? Like, Idon't need to feel because sex
is just that. It is a physicalexchange for me.
And because there is no deeperemotional impact or meaning, I
don't need to feel a connectionto the person on any kind of
level other than physically, Ithink you're attractive. But

(24:44):
even then, that's kind of likewhere I've explained to people
before where people like, so youdon't find people if you're
asexual, you don't think peopleare attractive. Like, oh, no. I
absolutely experienceattraction. But for most people,
the order of operations would besee someone who you think is
hot.
You have that rush of hormoneand emotion. You think, oh my
god, I really want them tonotice me or talk to me. I want

(25:05):
to flirt with them. I want toget that validation, and I want
to be in the presence of someoneI find attractive. And then for
most people, then they'd say,and I'd like to then get to know
them better and have sex withthem and get to know their
bodies.
For me, it's like, oh, they'rereally attractive. Like, it
would be fun to flirt with them.Mhmm. That's where it stops. The
process does not continue.

(25:26):
It can if I decide it will, butthere's nothing biological in me
that's like does wants that.

Well, is really interesting because I feel like
you're shedding a light. Youknow, we talk about the the way
that we prioritize sex, the waythat we think about sex, and I
would argue, and especially withporn, I think we think about sex
as it's supposed to be thisreally big explosive moment, and
not just explosive with regardsto orgasm, but that too. Mhmm.
But, like, it it usually has anan ending, but it's all it's

(25:55):
like this super heightened,super heightened. And I don't
think there's a very robustconversation happening about how
sex evolves in a long termrelationship.
And so I and I think there needsto be that. And so how can sex
be different? Well, I thinkfirst and foremost, sex not
always having to be explosive,energetically even. Yeah. Maybe

(26:19):
maybe maybe it doesn't alwayshave to culminate in an orgasm.
Right?

Some of the best sex I've ever had didn't have an
orgasm. Right? Like, some of thebest sexual experiences is that
I can remember, no orgasminvolved.

Yeah. But I think it can open up, like, a lot of
possibility to different kindsof sex. I will tell a quick
story that this is not a sexstory, but, I was in a did I
tell you? If I told thisalready, I'm sorry. But I was in
a partnered, naked yoga classthat I had never gone to in New
York City.
And I was with my friend, and heand I had been intimate prior to

(26:55):
then. But we were doing youknow, it was it was a yoga
class, so we weren't we weren'tthere to have sex. And it but it
was very flirty. It was verytouchy. And so at the end, when
we left, we walked down you putour clothes on.
We walked downstairs, and wekinda looked at each other and
be like, well, it would bereally fun to go home and hook
up now and sort of close this.But we both were like, but
actually, this was sointeresting and unique. Why

(27:17):
don't we just leave it? And wedid. And it's one of the moments
that I think about because itwas a totally different kind of
sexy than anything I had hadbefore.
And I think there's a benefit intalking about lots of different
kinds of sexy.

Definitely.

Deeply intimate. Right? Like, was It sounded like
a very intimate

I liked him. I trusted him. We were being
tactile. We had some parameters.So, you know and it was, yeah,
it was a totally different kindof interaction.
Right.

And it kind of like, can we take sex out of
intimacy? Right. Can we beintimate with people without
sex? And something that I wasreally hearing when I was
talking to you is the depth ofyour intimacy really is based
off of heart energy and depth ofconversational connection.

An emotional connection.

Because some of the conversations that I heard you
talk about that you have hadwith your husband before you
guys got married, I was like,wow. These are, like, really
deep personal intimateconversations that I'm hearing.

Oh, definitely. And, like, when people say that
kind of idea of, like, can therebe intimacy without sex? For me,
I'm like, 100%. That's a, youknow, a no brainer. And it's
it's, you know, it's not justlike, you know, the example I
gave before.
Like, my husband cleans thekitchen, and I feel so special
and and cared for and whatever.Or he, you know, buys me a
present that he knows that I'vebeen looking at online and

(28:46):
wanted or something. It's alsolike people assume also, I think
a lot of times that asexualitycomes with like a immediate link
to like not wanting physicaltouch at all. My husband and I
are so physically intimate. Youknow, we cuddle, we hug.

(29:06):
Like, I literally Like, when wewere sleeping, our If our dogs
aren't in the middle of us, I amlike on his back like a little
backpack. Like, is so much thereis so many ways to be physically
intimate that aren't attached tosex. And I think people think of
sex as the ultimate, almost likethe the goal of intimacy. But in

(29:28):
my experience, you can a 100%remove sex and have not just
intimacy, but romantic intimacywith somebody if they're on the
same page with you.

Have you ever seen the movie The Opposite of Sex?

I haven't.

It's got Christina Ricci. It has Lisa Kudrow and
some other Two

of my favorites.

There's some it's a it's a really interesting I
think it came out in thenineties. And, anyway, there was
this one conversation. One ofthe characters said, what if sex
isn't about procreation? What ifit's about concentration? Right?
And, like, this moment of sorather than, oh, I'm gonna have
I'm gonna have a physiologicalexperience with you, He was sort

(30:08):
of suggesting, well, what ifit's just about two people
coming together? And then ifthat was one way of defining it,
then that could exist in allkinds of ways that wouldn't
necessarily require certainkinds of stimulation or
penetration or, you know, it'slike, oh, if what I'm doing is
coming and, like, giving you myconcentration, my full

(30:29):
attention, you're doing the samefor me. Yeah. Then that to me
feels like it could expand thedefinition beyond a certain set
of physical acts that have to,like, fit into this slice.

Absolutely. I mean, when you were saying that,
it made me actually think of aformer partner that I have that
I had. And he had been goingthrough a very tough time in his
life, and he had been, away forabout two months. When he
finally came home, I remembervery, very specifically, we had
this, you know, reunion. I'dmissed him so much.

(31:03):
We'd lived together. It had beenvery hard to be apart. And we
were having sex. And I rememberthough having this moment where
I was like, this is so lovely.We're so connected.
I've missed him so much. I justlike feel so so connected to
him. But realizing that if wewhat if we weren't actually
having sex, I would have thesame feeling if we were just

(31:25):
lying in bed together, if wewere just being together, that
the sex part was kind ofarbitrary in a way. And I think
a lot of people, out of analmost knee jerk reaction,
probably think, like, this isthe validating way to say, okay,
check. Yes.
I I'm into I have an intimateconnection with somebody. But

(31:46):
it's sort of like, there are asyou said, there are so many
ways. Intimacy does not I mean,if you think about the general
idea of intimacy, you can havean intimate relationship with a
friend that's completelyplatonic, but you share a deep
level of intimacy with them. Itdoesn't so we I think we get we
confused because if I were tosay to someone, oh, you know,
your dearest best friend, do youfeel an intimate connection? Be

(32:07):
like, oh, of course.
But that same person, if I wereto say, can you experience
intimacy without sex? If they'rethinking romantically, might not
understand that those two thingscan cross over.

I'm curious. As many queer spaces, this town,
Provincetown, centers a lotaround sexual liberation. What
has it been like navigatingthose spaces, this town, as
somebody who doesn'tnecessarily, like Yeah. Truly
connect with that?

So it's interesting. I think, you know,
speaking from my ownperspective, some asexual
people, if they've realized thatthis is who they are early on,
they might never have had sex.They might never have had any
kind of sexual encounter. Formyself, that's not true. Having
realized it a little bit lateron, you know, I've definitely

(32:54):
had a lot of experiences.
And so, in a way, I can relate.Right? If someone tells a funny
story or a joke, it's not asthough I'm like, wow, like
that's a foreign alien conceptto me. I'm like, oh, that is
funny. Like, I have I can relateto that.
Where it does become a littlebit, not even alienating, but it

(33:17):
does kind of make you feel otheris when that is the sole focus
of everything. And people alsoassume, you know, they assume
you're a person who's partneredwith somebody. So they'll assume
that that means sexual stuff.And so there's definitely been
times when someone will make aand it's all in fun, but like a

(33:38):
joke about like, oh, you know,like say I was at the gym, like,
you know, oh, like, you know,your husband's gonna be happy to
see you later or something likethat. And I just sort of smile
and say, You know, I'm not gonnaget into it with perfect
strangers, but there is sort ofthis assumption if you're happy

(33:58):
and you're partnered that you'rehaving sex.
So there are times when I eitherjust gloss over it or I say, oh,
yeah, for sure. Or, you know,some just kind of it's easier
just to sort of

Placate.

Yeah, to placate. But it does sometimes
leave you feeling a little bitlike, you know, the cheese
stands alone. Like, you know, sobut I would also say that
Provincetown being a it's a, youknow, queer town for sure. But
if you look at, like, forexample, if you look at our US
census, it's I think I forgetthe percentage, but way more

(34:31):
percentage of men than there arewomen. So it's kind of like
female sexuality in P town is onthe back burner anyway.
I would say the exception of,like, you know, you walk past
Toys of Eros, and you have goodrepresentation. Right? There's
stuff of all kinds in thatwindow. It's not just about the
male experience. But beyondthat, like, it's pretty male

(34:52):
gaze y around here.
So in a weird way, I kind oflike that invisibility, that
kind of overlooking of thefemale sexual experience,
whether it's straight, lesbian,whatever, you kind of get to,
like, fly under cover of nightin a way because people aren't
that interested in in thatexperience from you anyway.

When you were telling that story, I I kind of
flashed to Commercial Street,and then I also flashed to,
like, TV shows and so we haveall these ideas of how we have a
sexy experience, meaning not nota sexual experience but a sexy
like, oh, so I put on a ballgown or I put on like, this

(35:33):
really tight shorts or the, youknow, the tank top. And so,
would you be willing to toshare, like, ways in which you
have that for yourself?

Yeah. So I always joke. I'm an only child,
and I'm like an only child inevery sense of the word. In
that, for me, that feeling oflike, oh, I'm gonna wear my
cutest tank top and like mycutest, you know, shorts or
whatever it is, and I'm gonna goout. It's all it's pretty much

(36:04):
me, myself, and I.
So, like, for me, if I'm goingto put on an outfit that I think
looks really good, that I feelreally sexy in, it has nothing
to do with other people findingme sexy. It's about do I look in
the mirror and say, oh, girl,you look so good. Like, it's

(36:25):
really and I, like, I say thatwith everything else where I'm
like, you know, in terms of Idon't have outward competition.
With people like, let's play apickup game of soccer. I'm like,
oh, crap.
Like, I can't I don't care. Idon't really care

at all.

But if you were to say, you know, hey, you're
gonna try and beat your own miletime, then I'm like, heck yeah.
Like, let's do this. Previousme, you're fucked. Like, that's
where

also deep

deeply loved. Deeply loved. But also like
you're a dumb bitch and I'mgonna school you right now. So
for me, it really is kind of allinward, which, you know, on the
surface sounds a bitnarcissistic. But I don't know.
It's it's about having therelationship with yourself
first. And like if I'm wearing acute outfit and someone goes

(37:13):
like, hey, girl, you look sogood. Or like someone's like, oh
my god, you look so hot. It'sobviously an ego boost. I
definitely everybody, you know,will feel good when you say or
someone's like, oh my god, yourbody is looking amazing.
Like, I'm not gonna be like, oh,how dare you? I'm like, thank
you. But I could have a 100people tell me that I've never
looked better. And if I look inthe mirror and I don't feel that

(37:33):
way, it means nothing to me.That external validation kind of
rings super hollow.
And sometimes I wish it would bemore powerful. Right? Because
people who are like, my god, youlook so good. And if I could
actually be like, oh, thank you.That has actually made me feel
that way.
It would be a lot easier, Ifeel, sometimes.

It's I'm like, it's fascinating. I'm I'm
feeling I'm feeling a littleenvious because it does feel
like when you're connected toit, I mean, you said it's
potentially narcissistic or itsounds like that, but it also
sounds like a lot of consciousself love. And it'd be like, oh,
I'm the compass

Yeah.

On on this experience, and that sounds
refreshing. It's like, oh, if Icould just like my outfit and
walk down Commercial Street andnot need anything from anyone
else, I mean, sign me up. Thatsounds, you know? And obviously
I try to do that, but of courseI then will wonder, did they
notice me because of all of myprogramming and the way And I

(38:31):
get what you're saying, you lookat the, you know, you're passing
a window and you see yourreflection and that fills you
up. Like, that sounds great.

Like, first of all,

I'm so happy for you. Let's walk down Commercial
Street together in some cutetank tops and shorts and, like,
see if I can it'll rub off onme. But, like, it sounds like
really self love and it soundslike, when you can tap into it,
a really comfortable, stableexperience.

Definitely. And it's it's funny, like, that when
you're describing that, like, II'm always a bit self conscious
where I'm like, when I walk downthe street, car window, shop
window, I'm like, oh, hey, girl.

And like,

you look so good today. And it's like, but I
and I truly get that kind ofthat feeling of whoo that you
would get if someone else saidthat to you. And like I said,
obviously, if someone else paysme that kind of compliment, I
like it. It makes me feel good.It definitely gives me like my
fluffs my feathers a little bit.
But at the end of the day, if Ifelt like I if I wasn't feeling

(39:32):
that way and someone said it, itdoes nothing for me. It's almost
like I'm like, yeah, but I don'tbelieve you, so it doesn't
matter. It is all very centeredin yourself.

Right. If the experiences don't line up. Yes.
If my internal experience istelling me one thing and you're
trying to tell me another, like,they don't match. So

Exactly. Them.

It's not

doing it.

It means nothing in that case. Mhmm.
Yeah. Very much so. But and it,you know, as I like, when I say
it sounds narcissistic, it in away, it's kind of like, you
know, we we can think aboutthings as like, you know,
healthy amount of ego versus anunhealthy amount.
And I honestly think for myself,like, it's not as though I
don't, like, I don't see myselfin the mirror and say, oh, you
look so good today, and thenthink, and you're better than

(40:15):
everyone else. That would be thenarcissism. Right? Correct. It's
more that it's just like, I ammy own my most important person
is me.
And I think growing up as anonly child in kind of a rural
place, you know, I had to be mymost important person. When I
would play with my toys, I wasthe only one there. So I had to

(40:37):
make sure I cultivated a reallyrich inner life, a really rich
inner connection. And I thinkthat is partly why being
asexual, for me at least, itdoesn't affect my self esteem.
I've read on lots of forumspeople who are like, I feel so
ashamed.
I feel like what's wrong withme. But because it feels

(40:57):
authentic to me and it matchesup, then I don't question it.

For somebody that might be questioning if they are
asexual or they might be feelingshame around their identity,
what's one thing that you wouldwant them to hear?

You are no less valid an adult, a person. You
have it's not that you have lessto contribute if you don't
resonate with sex. For me, once,you know, once I started getting
older and those teenage hormonesstarted to wear off, and I
wasn't kind of able to use themas a nice veil to distract me
from my actual experience, itwas this moment where I was

(41:32):
like, oh gosh, like, something'swrong with me. You know? If what
adult isn't interested in sex?
What mature human doesn't wantsex, doesn't get something out
of it? You know, I must havePeter Pan syndrome. I'm there's
something wrong with me. But Iwould just want everyone to if
they're thinking like, whydoesn't sex make me feel any

(41:54):
particular way? Or even if it'slike, why do I feel repulsed by
it?
Sex has been put on a pedestalin our culture and in our, you
know, society, but it's notreal. It's just it's just not
real at all. And you're no lessvalid at fill in the blank
adult, spouse, person, if that'snot part of it for you. And I

(42:17):
think a lot of people think, oh,arrested development or even a
lot of the feedback when you sayyou're asexual is like, oh, what
happened? Oh.
Oh. Like, what happened to you?And it's like, nothing. Nothing
happened. For some people,asexuality can be born from a
trauma response.
But to me, how is that anydifferent than somebody who's

(42:39):
like, oh, I was married to afemale who's like, I was married
to a man, and it was such ahorrible toxic relationship that
I don't ever wanna date menagain. I wanna date women.
Whether or not that person wasborn a lesbian or if their
environmental influences havemade them more have more
proclivity towards that, wedon't question it. We don't say

(43:00):
like, oh, but like, maybe givemen another try. So it's kind of
just one more time.
Maybe it'll work. It's kind oflike, this is this is just as
valid as any other person sayingthis is my sexual boundary. This
is my experience.

It's fascinating that you said that. I flashed
to, I'm talking all all about myexes, but I had another ex that
was celebrating the New Year,and he was telling his story
about coming out. And he cameout to his his twin brother and
his dad, and the dad said tohim, he's like, Well, have you
ever been with a woman? And hesaid, No. He's like, Well, then

(43:35):
how do you know that you're gayif you've never been with a
woman?
And his response was, he waslike, Well, did you have to be
with a woman to know you wantedto be? So it's interesting,
like, the moments where we willquestion things and the moments
when we won't because it's like,right. No one you you knew you
were straight before you hadstraight sex.

Right.

But now you're gonna ask me. And it's like, oh,
because there's a part of me youdon't understand, which is fine.
Part of what we're trying to dois create understanding, but
it's an interesting thing tohave to manage. Like, answering
a question, lots of people neverhave to answer.

And it's also, as you said, it's also managing
people's expectations. You know,and it's hard to say how
accurate this is. But, like andbecause asexuality is somewhat
new in terms of being a openconcept. But I think right now,
it's saying that, like, 1%,maybe slightly less of the
population identifies asasexual. And that's like tiny.

(44:29):
Right? 1%. But a little bit, I'mkind of like, well, if you were
to rewind to like 1920, and youwere to pull how many men
identify as gay, it would havebeen significantly less than now
because it just wasn't talkedabout. It wasn't verbalized. It
wasn't seen as even an option.
And so a little bit, I sort ofthink about that where it's
like, you know, how many people,if you really stop to think

(44:51):
about it, would say, you know,maybe you don't identify as full
stop asexual. But on thatspectrum, as you said, where
you're like, wait a minute, Idon't wanna just hook up with
random guys. I need to have aphysical connection or else it
won't work. And it's kinda likeif you were to within whether
you're straight, gay, whatever,I think it's interesting like,

(45:12):
yeah, it's one percent. But howmany people actually, if they
had the understanding would belike, oh, actually, I resonate a
bit with that.

Well, I mean, I just I just discovered the term
demisexual, like, not that longago. So, yes, if you would ask
me two years ago, are youdemisexual? I don't know. I
probably I probably would havesaid I would not have identified
such because I didn't know itwas a thing.

Or if someone said, do you identify any part
of you as being asexual? Youwould have said, well, no. I
have sex with partners, so I'mnot asexual.

Yeah. I would no. That's that's even more well
said. Yes. That's exactly right.
And then it was a discovery. Sothe understanding and the
language around it helps us. AndI think you're right. The more
we understand it, the more wemight recognize, a shared
experience.

Right. And I'll say that, you know, I had the
privilege of because I have hada sexual past, nobody could
challenge me with like, well,but you haven't tried it, so how
do you know? In fact, I'd belike, oh, like, trust me, I have
enough experiences to know.There

Do you wanna see my lipstick case?

Literally, like, I'm like, I'm no need to
ask if I'm uninformed. I'm verywell informed. So I feel, you
know, lucky that that never wasquestioned in that regard. But I
will say that, for example, youknow, it was just in the last
couple years that I startedactually, you know, when you go
to your doctor and says, how doyou identify? All of a sudden,

(46:38):
asexual pops up on the menu.
And so this was probably, like,five years ago or so, and I
thought, oh my gosh. Like, thereI am. That's so cool. Like, I'm
gonna check it off becausepreviously, I've always just put
straight because I'm married toa man, and it's just like,
that's easiest. When I went tothat doctor's appointment, she
was like, oh, and I noticed youmarked asexual.
And I was like, oh, yeah. Mhmm.Like, kind of expecting it not

(46:59):
to be anything. She's like,well, basically, she went down
this rabbit hole of like, do youthink there's something
medically wrong with you? Like,are you able to feel aroused?
And I'm like, well, yeah, butthat's not the point. And it's
like, well, okay. Like, oh, oh,I noticed you're on an SSRI.
That's probably a hot culprit.That's a part of why you don't
feel sexual attraction.

(47:19):
It's like, no. You know, thissort of, like, needing to find a
reason for the behavior. Justsimilarly how, you know, for gay
men way back I mean, notactually, sadly, not way back
when, very recently. In fact,it's almost like, oh, like, what
like, when you were a kid, didsomething happen? Did did is
there a medical is there amental reason, a psychological

(47:41):
psychological reason?
Reason? It's It's like, not atall, bitch. Like, it's like, are
you kidding me? So but there issort of that feeling of people
don't because there's not a lotof verbiage out there for it.
Even medical professionals arekind of looking for the why
because it seems strange.
For most people, the idea thatsex means nothing is very

(48:03):
foreign.

Well, to take a thing that we have so glamorized
in our world, and that we've allsort of silently agreed it's the
most important thing or one ofthe most important things, and
then suddenly you meet a personwho isn't impacted in in the
same way, yeah, it's like therethere's not enough
understanding. There is anepisode of, The Big Bang Theory.
Have you watched The Big BangTheory?

A little yeah.

Okay. With Sheldon it's one of my favorite, TV
shows. But, Sheldon was talkingto Penny, and he was talking
about, he was talking aboutsexual attraction. He's like,
he's like, you know, and thenthis for sexual attraction,
assuming you're afflicted withsuch. It was like this laugh
line.
Of course, the character ofPenny was like, you know, okay.
Because she was, like, beautifuland had lots of boyfriends and

(48:44):
whatever. Mhmm. But it wasreally funny because of it was
just like, oh, they made thejoke about switching the
perspective. From him from him,it wasn't like that he was
missing anything.
He was like, instead, you'reburdened. Yeah. You're you're
all burdened by a thing that I'mthat I'm not burdened by. And I
and that's why it was such a biglaugh line too because, the
doctor should be

asking you these questions.

Yeah. And that's so interesting too
because I definitely I'm anobserver. I'm definitely that
person at a party who's sittingthere watching everybody, and
and it just that's kind ofhumans interest me in that way.
I love people watching. And soit's funny.
I'll you know, when I work outat the gym here, and if I'm like
taking a rest or in betweensomething, and I'll look around,

(49:26):
and it'll be like, you know, aguy who has like he's holding a
dumbbell, but he's not doinganything because he's just like
staring at this other guy wayacross the gym. It's like he's
frozen in time. Right? And it'slike you were in the middle of a
curl, and then you were like,And now you're just off thinking
whatever you're thinking.

Mhmm.

And I often have this thought where I'm
like, oh, what a bummer to be soeasily distracted from present
moment. Yeah. From the presentmoment by this kind of amorphous
concept. And that's always beensomething that for me is
interesting where it's like,don't because I you know, people
I forget what it's like, thestudy that's people think about

(50:07):
sex a certain cadence a day.Right?
If it's like every few minutesor something. I almost never do,
especially not provoked. It'snot something that I'm just
sitting there and I'm all ofsudden I'm like, oh, bam.

Text.

Yeah. Just doesn't happen. And so from my
perspective, it is like, wow.Like, how much of your time goes
to thinking about that? Are youare you do you want it?
Are you getting enough of it?What does it mean if you're not?
How like, all these Is it withthe right person? They're with
the right person. Could it bebetter?
All of these things where I'mjust like, oh, wow. That would
take up so much mental effortand energy that I just don't

(50:45):
spend on that at all.

So again, it sounds like kind of a luxury.

I mean, in a sense, like, you know, actually
Once I became comfortable withthe idea of it, because at first
I wasn't. Like, you know, when IAnd in my own way, feel like I,
you know, came out as asexual inthe sense that I always Like, my
behavior was always kind of inalignment with asexuality, but
my mind wasn't. And I hadn'taccepted it about myself.
Because it did. I bought intothe rhetoric that if you're an

(51:12):
adult that doesn't enjoy sex,something is wrong with you.

Mhmm.

I really resonate with the like, oh, and
if you're afflicted by thatMhmm. Because it's like, wow.
Yeah. Like, before now that I'munderstand it, now that I've had
a lot of thought about it, Iactually feel immensely lucky
that that's not something thatdistracts me or that takes up to
preoccupies too much space in myhead. If I'm, you know, not
getting laid, it doesn't sayanything about me.

(51:37):
I don't care. Like, it doesn'tI'm not thinking like, oh god,
it's been eight months. I mustbe getting hideous. That's why
it's happening. It's I'm sohorrible and gross.
It's like, I don't spend anyenergy on that whatsoever.

Wow. Because what what I love so much about this
conversation is the permissionthat this label can give to
folks and also almost thepermission that you've given me
to take some of that energy thatI direct so outward into the
world and really bring it in,bring it home. Mean, RuPaul says

(52:12):
it, how the hell are you gonnalove somebody else if you can't
love yourself? And this is sucha beautiful example of that, of
how much time we do spendseeking external when some of
that could be directed internal.And there's no right or wrong
here.

No, there's not.

It's going to be different for each person and
each person is going to havetheir own fulfillment just like
you do. Yeah. Your sense ofintimacy is very different than
somebody else's sense ofintimacy.

And I definitely I really love that
RuPaul quote. And I there'sanother Oscar Wilde, and I don't
remember the exact quote, butit's, the relationship with you
have with yourself is the mostimportant one of your lifetime.
And that really resonates forme. And in fact, when I
realized, oh, it's not just thatI'm lukewarm on sex or that I
don't really get it. Like, oh,this is actually like the label

(53:01):
does give me a feeling ofpermission.
It was a feeling of like, almostas though like, I had this
moment. Was like, I'm so sorryI've been making you perform in
ways that weren't real for you.I'm so sorry that I was putting
an agenda on you. Didn't meananything to you. And now that I
know that, it was a much betterconnection with myself.

About to cry because I'm like, like, I need
to do that with my body. I needto, like, apologize hardcore to
my body for all of the pressureand situations that I've put
myself through to try to besomething, do something. Right.
I'm sorry, but I love you justthe

way you

are. And

you know what? You don't know what you don't
know till you know it. And sowhile I was saying, I'm so sorry
that I put us in situations thatweren't authentic to us, I
didn't know better at the time.And now that I know better, I
will do better. And for me,that's been such a affirming
thing.

And it sounds like it was a valid part of your
journey in coming to theunderstanding.

Definitely.

Right? So rather than going back and like, now
you can say, well, what I can dois make an empowered choice
moving forward about what isauthentic to me. Right. And not
because, I mean, I think this isimportant with a lot of, like,
going back and kind of healingour our inner children

Yeah.

Not beating ourselves up for not being the
person we would be now Yep.Then, but rather just like, oh,
well, that happened, and nowwhat? Like, what have I learned,
and now what? Honoring, thathappened.

Yeah.

But maybe it won't happen anymore. Or if it does
happen again, it's gonna happendifferently because I have
greater understanding and I haveI can make more conscious
choices about it in the greatestgood for for all involved.

Yeah. You And, know, when you say inner child,
I really think about how the wayI interact with my inner child
is I think about my adult selfnow. And I you know, for the
record, I had fantastic parents.My mom and dad are amazing. They
were so supportive and loving.
I have literally I'm veryprivileged to say I have no
complaints about how I wasraised or my parents'

(55:02):
relationship with me. But when Ithink about my inner child, what
I think about is those momentssay when I was 15, I was hooking
up with my high schoolboyfriend, and I felt like this
is kind of weird. I feel kind ofuncomfortable, but not enough to
stop it, but just something'snot right. Now I can show up for
her. And as the adult self, it'salmost like I'm not reparenting,
but I'm like the big sister Ididn't have.

Mhmm. And

so now, if I feel myself being like, oh, I
should probably like, if we'reif I'm in a group, we're all
talking about sex, I'm like, oh,I should share something even
though it doesn't feelauthentic. I almost picture like
my self now putting my hand onthe shoulder of my younger self
and saying, that's okay. Youdon't have to. You're valid in
the conversation just as is. Youdon't have to.
And it's very affirming.

That's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for sharing
that.

Thank you for sharing this time with us today.
Yeah. Thank you for bringingyour experience to us, the
vulnerability that you broughtand the intimacy that we were
able to create through that. I'mfeeling very, very complete. How
about you, Tim?

I feel complete.

I love that.

Anna, do you feel complete?

Definitely. It was a lovely conversation.

Thank you. Tim, will you take us out, please?

Absolutely. Let's draw our spine tall, close our
eyes, or lower our gaze and justbring a lot of appreciation and
gratitude for this conversationand for any awarenesses or
insights or understandings thatmay be of service to you, to us,
to our community. And now werelease the spirits that we

(56:35):
called in, and with these words,our container is open but not
broken.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

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