Moving from Physical to Embodied Intimacy with Tom Bruett

Queer therapist Tom Bruett joins us to explore what it means to move from connection that’s just physical to intimacy that’s truly embodied. We unpack how early messages around fear, secrecy, and performance shape desire, and what becomes possible when we bring awareness back into the body.

Together we get practical: the “thumb out” signal for pausing when you’re overwhelmed, Dan Siegel’s hand model of the brain, the window of tolerance, and simple brain-stem tools like breath and sensation to come back online. We talk consent using Betty Martin’s Wheel, sensate focus as a no-pressure practice, and why owning your own pleasure can reduce shame and resentment. Eric shares on sober intimacy and using kink/BDSM as a bridge to presence; Tim translates models into day-to-day micro-practices you can try over dishes, on a walk, or in moments of closeness. We also name app fatigue, hypersexualized spaces, and how to de-emphasize the finish line without losing the fun.

Chapter Markers

00:00 – Welcome & Introductions: Eric sets the stage, introduces Tom Bruett and his work at the Queer Relationship Institute.

03:20 – Queer Men, Bodies, and Hypermasculinity: How early messages about masculinity and secrecy shape our relationship with embodiment.

08:45 – Differentiation & Authentic Expression: Tom explains how attachment, differentiation, and experimentation help queer men reconnect with themselves.

14:30 – Adolescence Delayed: Emotional, Sexual, Spiritual: Exploring the unique timing of queer men’s adolescence and what that means for intimacy.

18:55 – Physical vs. Embodied Connection: Tim and Tom define embodied intimacy, contrasting it with purely physical encounters.

23:15 – Sober Intimacy & BDSM as a Bridge: Eric shares his transition into sobriety and how kink created space for embodied connection.

28:40 – Desire Differences & Myths in Gay Culture: Unpacking desire discrepancy, app fatigue, and the hypersexualized pressures queer men face.

34:20 – First Steps into Embodiment: Practical entry points: body scans, breathwork, yoga, dance, and sensate focus exercises.

40:05 – The Nervous System & Dan Siegel’s Hand Model: Understanding hyperarousal, hypoarousal, and tools to return to regulation.

45:00 – Consent, Communication & the “Thumb Out” Signal: Introducing Betty Martin’s Wheel of Consent, shorthand for pausing, and reframing performance pressure.

49:20 – De-Emphasizing the Finish Line: How to shift focus away from orgasm as the marker of success and expand intimacy through experimentation.

52:00 – Closing Reflections: Tom, Tim, and Eric share final takeaways on vulnerability, practice, and ongoing exploration.

53:08 – Closing Ritual: Tim leads the gratitude and release, “container open but not broken.”

Episode Transcript

Eric Bomyea (00:06):
Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go
all in on men's work, embodimentpractices, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. Ifyou're enjoying the show, please
be sure to share your favoriteepisode, leave a review, and
subscribe. And if you have aquestion about anything you've
heard us talk about, please sendus a message. We'd love to hear
from you. And now on to today'sshow.
Today, we're joined by queertherapist Tom Bruwett. Tom is a

(00:26):
founder of the QueerRelationship Institute and the
author of the Go To RelationshipGuide for Gay Men. He spent
years helping queer folks buildstronger relationships, starting
with the one they have withtheir own bodies. For many of
us, early sexual experienceswere influenced by fear,
secrecy, scarcity, and evenperformance. How have these
messages impacted our connectionto desire and pleasure?

(00:48):
And what possibilities emergewhen we bring awareness to these
patterns and engage with ourbodies more fully? Tim, Tom, are
you ready to go all in?

Timothy Bish (00:56):
I'm ready.

Tom Bruett (00:57):
I'm ready.

Eric Bomyea (00:58):
Let's do this. Tom, I'm so glad that you're here
with us. Welcome to the circle.

Tom Bruett (01:02):
Thank you. I'm really, really excited to have
this conversation with you both.

Eric Bomyea (01:05):
So, Tom, you're the founder of the Queer
Relationship Institute, whereyou provide therapy for queer
individuals and couples as wellas training for therapists
working with queerrelationships. Could you share
more about the mission and theservices of the institute?

Tom Bruett (01:17):
Sure. Yeah, I just actually, before this call, had
my final group of training witha group of therapists. I train a
group of therapists from aroundthe world in this model of
relationship therapy that I doand it was our final session
today and it was full of lotsof, I mean, so many emotions of
people just having the abilityto kind of be in a queer space

(01:38):
and especially when you're ahealer, right, like it's not
always easy to find places forsupport. So the biggest kind of
mission of the QueerRelationship Institute is to
provide training and support fortherapists and coaches who want
to help other people in queerrelationships. I also do
individual therapy and couplestherapy and all that kind of
stuff too.

Timothy Bish (01:57):
So part of your work is about embodiment. Am I
right about that?

Tom Bruett (02:02):
Mhmm.

Timothy Bish (02:03):
I'm curious if we could just start off with my
experience in men's work hasbeen that a lot of men struggle
with their relationship withtheir body or or could be served
with a deepening of theirrelationship with their body.
I'm wondering if you could speaka about men in general and then
how queer men might differ or orspecial circumstances that we

(02:25):
might find ourselves in thataren't maybe not totally shared.

Tom Bruett (02:29):
Yeah. Think gender plays a lot a huge role in this.
And so if we're if we'resocialized, raised male, right,
there are certain aspects of thebody that are okay. It's okay to
be strong. It's okay to havemuscles.
It's, you know, it's not okay tobe soft. It's not okay usually
to have certain kinds ofemotions. Anger is okay, but,
you know, sadness and and griefcan be often looked down upon.

(02:50):
And so I think when you when youlayer on that the experience of
being a queer guy, I mean,there's there's, you know, a
quote that I really love aboutthis is is this idea that, like,
as queer men, we're we are sortof the spies into hyper
masculinity because we have tobe, like, that much more on
guard because we're hidingaspects of who we actually are.

(03:12):
And so you take all this stuff,all the crap that we have to
deal with as as men, and thenyou just amplify it when you're
in a queer body.

Timothy Bish (03:19):
Yeah. Thank you for that. You know, because in
in men's workspaces and anembodiment practice, we will
often ask people to come intodifferent practices and then
have an experience ofthemselves. And I find that it
is really hard for men to dothat, especially if they're new
to the practice. And I thinkpart of it is what you just said

(03:40):
where we've been told some ofthese experiences are okay.
And so those I think we havequicker access to, like anger.
But then there's this giganticswath of human experience that
we were told is not okay ornonoptimal, certainly not the
ideal sexy Marlboro man. And sothen we don't have any sort of
access to it because we haven'tbeen given tools or seen it

(04:03):
modeled, which is why we are alldoing the work we're doing so
that we can start to model that.

Eric Bomyea (04:08):
Mhmm. And so that that quote that you shared of us
being like the spies into thehyper masculinity, I really love
that. It resonates with mebecause I can relate to really
masquerading and trying to fitand shape shift myself to fit
certain molds. But what that didis it took me away from my

(04:29):
authenticity and my actualembodied experience. And so I'm
curious, how do you work withqueer men to help them come back
into their embodied experience?

Tom Bruett (04:39):
So that is the root of all of the work that I do is
is, rooted in the theory and themodel of my mentors, Doctor.
Ellen Bader and Peter Pearson,and they have this model of,
relationship therapy that is isbuilt on understanding
attachment science,understanding the brain, but
then the big piece that I thinkis important for queer men is
the differentiation piece. Andso having the ability, like you

(05:02):
said, to go inward and to knowwhat you want, feel, long for,
desire, like so often we are cutoff from that because we're
playing a role in society insome way. And so a lot of the
work that I do is around helpingpeople reconnect with
themselves. And it's yeah, partof it is is you know your mind
and the mental piece of it, buta lot of it is the body and even

(05:23):
the spiritual.

Timothy Bish (05:24):
Is that the gateway? I'm thinking in this
moment about my own personalexperience and how does a queer
person know what what is theirauthentic expression, what they
really want if we have spentdecades or lifetimes, trying to
be something else? And I have toimagine that you've encountered
this. I've been working reallyhard to be strong enough, smart

(05:47):
enough, successful enough, earnyour love, not get my ass
kicked, you know, whatever. Sohow does that person start the
process of understanding what itis they really want when that
hasn't been the priority forvery legitimate reasons.
I want to make sure that'sreally clear. What we've done
for our own safety is notsomething we should judge
ourselves for, but if we want toheal and grow, we have to kind

(06:10):
of meet it. So what do you do?

Tom Bruett (06:11):
It actually takes a lot of courage and
experimentation and risk taking.Mean to do this process of
differentiation, It's to goinward and actually connect with
yourself and then tolerate thetension when you hold on to
yourself in relationship withsomebody else is not something
that many people are taught andcertainly not a lot of men. And
so I think, you know, like yousaid, have some compassion and

(06:33):
grace with ourselves, but thenget outside of our comfort zone,
take some risks, experiment, trysome new things, and many of us
didn't have an adolescence atthe same time as we physically
had our adolescence. You know,we physically go through
adolescence at the same time asa lot of our straight
counterparts, but we go through,I think, our emotional and
spiritual adolescence a lotlater, usually after we come to

(06:55):
terms with or, you know, get toknow more about ourselves or
identities or anything likethat. And adolescence is, like,
by definition, a period ofexploration, and so if haven't
had that freedom or thatexploration, I think when we get
through adulthood and we wake upand we're like, oh gosh, we're
doing this job that we hate andwe're miserable.

(07:16):
What are we going to do now?

Eric Bomyea (07:17):
And so physical adolescence, emotional
adolescence, what about sexualadolescence? The time that we
get to experiment and explorethat way. Because I can just say
from my personal experience, asmy peers in high school were
starting to become sexuallyactive, I was a closeted gay

(07:39):
boy, very nervous abouteverything. So I did not have
that experimentation until acouple years into my college
years there.

Tom Bruett (07:47):
And that I think definitely and we know that like
queer culture is not a monolith.There's as many queer stories
out there as there are queerpeople out there, and so your
story is gonna be different thanmine and different than yours
and etcetera. But yeah, we don'tthere's not like a typical road
map for a lot of us, and itdepends on how old you are, when
you came out, where you cameout, you know, was your family

(08:09):
accepting, did you have windowsand mirrors into other gay male
experiences or queer maleexperiences? I mean for me, I
came, I had a sexual adolescencesuper early, but I don't
necessarily think that was itwas embodied. It certainly
wasn't embodied.
It was it was physical but notembodied.

Timothy Bish (08:25):
I'm really glad that you just said that because
I'd love for us to talk a littlebit about that distinction. I
know that our queer community orthe gay male community in
particular can be very focusedon physicality on our bodies and
how they look and very focusedon sex oftentimes as a form of
validation. How would we howwould you talk about that in

(08:47):
contrast to what it means to beembodied? About the body versus
embodied, and what how how doyou see that?

Tom Bruett (08:53):
If we think about embodied as as kind of combining
your mind, your body, and andalso your spirit or your soul or
whatever whatever version ofthat you want to connect with, I
think it's about like actuallybeing fully present. And so many
of us, I mean this is certainlymy experience, this is a
personal journey that I am stillon. Do I always have embodied

(09:13):
sex? No. I mean there arecertainly times where I use sex
as a way to relieve stress orwhatever.
Right? And that's not bad. Idon't wanna, like, pathologize
any type of sex. But are we alsoable to have the ability to to
actually have fully embodiedsex? And I think that that's
something a lot of people in ourcommunity are longing for.

Eric Bomyea (09:32):
Longing for, yes. But how do how would somebody
even know what the differenceis? If I've spent my entire
adolescence and then intoadulthood just with physical
sex, I don't know what embodiedsex is. I don't even know if
there's another way to have sex.So like

Timothy Bish (09:47):
I actually don't think that outside of the yogic
demonic embodiment world thatI've ever even heard that term.
So if we're thinking about ourqueer community and how we try
to bring it to them, like, howdo we bring it when I don't
think it's a part? It certainlyhasn't been a part of the
conversation that I'veoverheard.

Tom Bruett (10:04):
And I guess I overlap in a lot of that
community. I've done a lot ofpsychedelic work and a lot of
men's work personally and it'sbeen super important and
influential in my life. Sothere's a lot of people in that
community where that's true. Ithink sometimes people will get
in into it through tantra or youknow there are some aspects of
like where there is overlapbetween I think the queer male

(10:26):
community and this kind ofembodied life, but I think it is
it's not pervasive, and it's notwhat we see in pornography, it
is not what we're, you know,even in romantic comedies,
right, the queer romanticcomedies that are out there,
that's not usually the kind ofsex that's depicted, and so I
think it usually people usuallyare starting to long for it when

(10:47):
they're having sex that ends upfeeling unfulfilled, that they
end up feeling unfulfilled, orthey have a sexual experience
and they feel shame or regret orremorse afterwards, or there's
some kind of negative experienceconnected with sex, And then
people start maybe opening uptheir eyes a little bit and
saying, want something differenthere.

Timothy Bish (11:05):
Yeah. I've heard and have experienced in my past
the feeling where wanting theexperience to be something, but
as it's happening, not that it'snecessarily bad, but it's, you
know, like, ugh. It's the it'sjust not it's just not
satisfying in the same way. Iimagine that is sort of a flag,
like, that would draw someone'sattention to maybe I'm wanting

(11:27):
something else here.

Tom Bruett (11:28):
Or if you have to always use substances with sex.
I mean, that's a huge one in ourcommunity. Right? And whether
it's alcohol which is the mostpervasive, or it's meth on the
other end of the spectrum, orpoppers or whatever it is, like
if you're having to sort ofcheck out of your body in some
way to actually be physicallyconnected to somebody else,
again I'm not saying that that'sbad or undesirable for some

(11:49):
people, but are there otheroptions? Are there other ways
you can be in your body?

Eric Bomyea (11:53):
And I think the key word here, again, it's not
moralistic judgment, it's doesit feel fulfilling? Are you
leaving that experiencefulfilled or unfulfilled? And
how does that feel in the body?Because we aren't going to seek
out solutions for things if wedon't see them as problems and

(12:14):
we don't identify if it couldeven be a problem worth finding
a solution for. So in this case,using physical sex and noticing
the sensations that arise afterthat, If I'm going in and I'm
just like I'm blissed out onsomething, in my case, I drank

(12:36):
heavily for many, many years andI was only intimate when
drinking.
I wouldn't have been able toeven realize whether I was
fulfilled or not after a sexualencounter. I was just like, I'm
just in my own little land.Right. And then getting sober
and being able to start being inthose experiences a little bit
more, was able to really startto gauge how I was feeling

(13:01):
before and after differentexperiences.

Tom Bruett (13:04):
Thank you for sharing that. Can I ask you a
question about that?

Eric Bomyea (13:07):
Yes, please.

Tom Bruett (13:08):
A lot of because this is a common experience for
a lot of people when they getsober, is that the idea of sober
sex and the process of sober sextakes a lot of time. Like, it's
not an easy thing. And so I'mwondering if you had that
experience, if it was difficultfor you to actually, have some
more embodied or sober sex andnot that they're the same.

Eric Bomyea (13:24):
Yeah. So there were moments of challenge. During my
transition from heavily drinkingand drugging to then being fully
sober, I dabbled into BDSM as away to become a little bit more
embodied in my relations becauseit took a little bit of the just

(13:45):
straight sexual component off ofit. So I could still be intimate
with a partner withoutnecessarily having to bring sex
into the equation. And so thatwas a nice bridge for me to be
like, oh, well, I can beintimate with somebody and I can
start to reveal parts of my mymental self and also physical

(14:07):
self, and we're playing withwith rope.
Right? And I can like we canlike baby step into, you know,
maybe the underwear comes off atsome point.

Tom Bruett (14:15):
I love that you're bringing that up because I think
kink and BDSM can is is anincredibly vulnerable experience
and exchange if you're doing itin a, you know, connected,
authentic way.

Eric Bomyea (14:26):
And it doesn't have to involve sex. And so it can be
a nice way to, for me anyway, todevelop some intimacy without
having to be fully sexuallyintimate. So I'm curious for
you. So you talked initiallyabout your mentors and teachers
being focused on attachment. Andso what led you from being

(14:50):
curious of attachment theory inthat sort of world to then
bringing in sex therapy?
What was the bridge for you?

Tom Bruett (15:00):
The bridge for me was I do a lot of relational
work, lot of work with gay men.I was in the Bay Area for ten
years, and so I was working witha lot of men, and there were a
lot of sex, you know, situationsthat were coming up that I just
didn't feel prepared to know howto help people with, and so I
thought becoming a sextherapist, I would, you know, I
would go to sex therapy schooland I would get these great

(15:21):
mentors and I would learn a lot,you know, from the schools, and
what I found was a similarsituation that I found
throughout my professionalcareer is that there are not
usually enough queer resourcesin spaces like that, like we end
up having to continue to findwhat works for us, and so even
in the sex therapy trainingprogram, I was always like,

(15:41):
okay, but how does this apply toqueer people? How does this
apply to gay men? Like, why areyou pathologizing that thing?
Know, and the sex therapycommunity is pretty open minded
in general, but there's just notthat many resources out there
for us.

Eric Bomyea (15:54):
Could we get specific on some of those? You
said you were in the Bay Areaand there were clients bringing
you certain specific things. Canwe talk about some of those
typical things or some of themore common things that were
being brought to you that thenyou sought education for that
you could then go back to themwith a little bit more
knowledge?

Tom Bruett (16:15):
I mean, the trickiest one, I think, for a
lot of folks is desiredifferences or desire
discrepancy. So you're in arelationship with somebody and
in a relationship there isinherently a lower desire
partner and a higher desirepartner. One is not good, one is
not bad, but they always existbecause people are not ever, you
know, fully 100 aligned on that.That can be really tricky when

(16:35):
you're working with couplesbecause it's really hard to not
like blame one person or getinto like accusations or demand
sex or anything like that, andso that was one area where I was
just like, I felt like I didn'tI didn't have the skills with
gay men to help to help themthrough this issue. Another
issue certainly is substances.
I mean, I worked a lot with methand gay men, in my early career,

(16:59):
and I worked in a rehab for awhile, and they're I think
coming off of a substance likemeth is so complicated, and
there's so many differentlayers, and when you mix it with
sex, and it makes sex, you know,like, I'm not going to remember
the right statistic, but like500, you know, times the the
power of dopamine released thanjust an orgasm on its own. So

(17:22):
it's like when you put an orgasmand meth together, it's it's
like a perfect storm for, kindof filling some of those those
voids we have as gay men.

Timothy Bish (17:31):
We could go back to the desire discrepancy, I
find really fascinating. I'mcurious I have to imagine that
that is a challenge for anyperson in a relationship, you
know, queer or not queer. So I'mcurious, how is it specifically
challenging for queer people?And I I have I think I have an
idea, but I'd like to hear fromyou about I I have to imagine

(17:53):
I'll just say it. I have toimagine for people in
relationships who are alsogetting a lot of validation from
sex, than not getting sex orfeeling forced to give sex might
carry a weight.
But I'd be curious to hear whatyou've learned and what you
know.

Tom Bruett (18:06):
There's so many myths too that like gay men just
love sex and they're all sex,sex, sex, sex. And so then if
you find yourself in arelationship, kinda like you're
saying, where, like, where'sthis where where did the sex go?
You take it super personally,and then it shows up in lots of
different other areas of yourconnection, and if you just stop
personalizing it and figure out,okay, we just we're just

(18:26):
different. We have differentwirings, different ways that
we're made up. How can weactually just, like, find
something on the sexual menuthat works for both of us?
And and what are the things thatturn you on so that we can
maybe, you know, do thattogether instead of blame and
accuse and all that kind ofstuff? But the differences for
gay men I think are like rightfrom what we started with how

(18:47):
sexualized we are and how, youknow, it's all there's so much
pressure on bodies and how youlook and how big your dick is
and you know, how many dicks youcould take. I mean, there's just
like so many things there tocomplicate the situation.

Eric Bomyea (19:02):
I've been over a year now off of Grindr, Scruff,
and any gay dating app because Icouldn't handle it anymore. I
could not handle one more personasking for a dick pic. I could
not handle just the way that Iwas being engaged with any
further. And it really I felt somuch shame. I struggle every

(19:26):
day.
I look in the mirror, I'm like,I'm not sexy enough. I'm not fit
enough. My dick's not bigenough. All of these things. And
it's just like I had to removemyself from that environment
because I had to just focus onmyself for a little bit.
Was like, I need to love myselfa little bit more before I even
play in these waters againbecause it's just too cutthroat
for me right now. Thehypersexualized nature we live

(19:49):
in Provincetown, Massachusetts,so we're in a gay gay vacation
town.

Tom Bruett (19:54):
My favorite place in the world.

Eric Bomyea (19:55):
Yay. Well, when you when you come to town, please
come visit us. It really is amagical slice of land, and it's
also very hypersexualized. Andthat sound good or bad?

Timothy Bish (20:04):
I feel like if people are listening to this and
they're interested in trying tounderstand the level of
embodiment that they have withtheir sex currently, if they
wanna deepen that. You know, asa yoga teacher, I hear a lot
about Tantra. And then so what Iwhat I've learned is that a lot
of people really misunderstandTantra. And Tantra is actually
like a deeply, robustphilosophical system that is,

(20:27):
like, with lots and lots ofpractice. So I I often say, oh,
if you're talking about realTantric sex, it would probably
look more like a, like, deeplong breath practice and, you
know, than it would like theKarma Sutra, like, crazy
positions.
Right? And so so it seems as ifembodied sex means first
starting to have a relationshipwith your own embodiment and

(20:48):
then bringing that into thesituation. So when you're
working with clients who areinterested in cultivating this,
where do you start? What aresome first steps for them?

Tom Bruett (20:57):
Because I'm a therapist, right, there are
certain restrictions andboundaries. So I'm not touching
people, I'm not like having themhave sex or or in my office, but
I am helping them kind of talkthrough some things that they
can do. So as you were talking,the image that came to mind for
me was like, okay, like what arethe parts of your body that you
like and what are the parts oreven tolerate? What are the

(21:19):
parts of your body you tolerate?Because not not many of us have
parts of our body that we evenwould say we like.
Can you can you like justconnect with a part of your body
that you tolerate? And can youjust breathe into that a little
bit, you know, and just kind ofbe with that part of your body.
And then you could work up to,okay, are there some parts of
your body that you really don'tlike? You know, your stomach
hanging over your pants, is thatsomething that you can just

(21:40):
soften up a little bit andbreathe into? You know, but if
as we move to more embodied sexwith partners, I think there is
a way in which we allowourselves to be fully seen and
that felt and tasted and all theother things by somebody else,
but it takes it being kind ofactually able to be in your own
body and whatever messy orlovely or whatever the

(22:03):
relationship is with your ownbody, you've got to start there.

Timothy Bish (22:05):
It's why in in the men's work space the body scan I
think is such an importantpractice. Scanning through the
body, starting to look fordifferent sensations, identify
them by quality and location.Sometimes ask yourself, is there
an emotion? It seems so simple.And yet I believe through
observation and through personalexperience that most of us are

(22:27):
not asking ourselves or checkingin with how we're actually
feeling.
And so then we're not super goodat it. So the idea of find one
place, If I heard you correctly,find one place that you can
tolerate and just send yourawareness there with some breath
is huge. So if you're listening,yeah, it sounds simple. And yes,

(22:48):
you could probably do it inthirty seconds if that's all you
had. But it is super impactfulin my experience, and it sounds
like you you agree.
And so and then the more you doit, the the greater the access
we'll have to the plethora ofexperiences that we can have
simultaneously. Mhmm. I mean,feel really fortunate because so
much of my work I was a dancerand lots of we have to drink

(23:12):
now.

Eric Bomyea (23:12):
There's a there's a a loving drinking game, whatever
beverage you want. It could bechamomile tea or whatever you
wanna be drinking. But anytimeTim references that he was a
professional dancer.

Timothy Bish (23:24):
Well, yeah. I didn't use the word professional
on purpose. Because I did trainwith my body that way and then
and then with and then withyoga, I I had a luxury of being
in conversation with my physicalbody and with other people's
physical bodies, I thinkexponentially more than most
people. And then through thiswork and in facilitating groups,

(23:44):
I realized, oh, a lot of peoplehaven't not only have they not
had the luxury I've had, they'vehad almost none. And so I see
the healing, and that's partlywhy these circles exist, to
bring some of it.
How are you feeling in any givenmoment?

Eric Bomyea (23:58):
The relationship that we have to our bodies could
be intolerable. It could be likefor a long time, my body scans
stopped at my neck. Like Ireally could not bring myself
into my body. There was agatekeeper at my neck that said,
nope, your attention does notcome into the body. It was
trauma.
It was all sorts of things thatprevented me from, like, going

(24:20):
through, and it was it waspractice. It was very similar to
what you said. Like, find aplace that is a little
comfortable.

Timothy Bish (24:25):
Well, in the circles, I've noticed that
sometimes if it feels like we'regetting too self helpy to that
that sometimes also presses apause button for for men. I had
one guy in particular who wouldjust answer fine. I feel fine. I
feel you know? And so this to methen feels like why something
like a yoga class that thatsomeone might perceive as maybe

(24:49):
a little bit more fitness orother sort so what are some
things that are access pointsfor for people who might not
feel safe in a deeply demonicspiritual space or maybe they
don't even feel deeplycomfortable in a therapeutic
space.
Like where what what are thingsthat they can do or where places
they could go?

Tom Bruett (25:08):
I think yoga is a great place to start, but also
is walking. I mean, you're justwalking in nature and you're
paying attention to your fivesenses, whether you believe it
or not, that's mindfulness.Mhmm. And so mindfulness is just
paying attention to what'shappening now, that's it. So
whatever you're doing that'spaying attention to what's
happening now, that's as simpleas it gets.
So, you know, ecstatic dance, ifyou're somebody who likes to

(25:29):
dance. I think even going out toa club and dancing, but if
you're not, you know, fully outof your mind, can you just be
with the music? You know, canyou allow the music to kind of
take over your body in some wayor like be present with what's
happening in your body with themusic? There's so many different
ways that that people can dothis. It doesn't have to be
formal.
It doesn't have to be therapy.It doesn't have to be I mean, I

(25:49):
I do love I've I've caught a fewof your Instagram lives where
you're doing breath practicesand like, I mean, what a great
free resource for our community.I mean, you don't even have to
pay a lot of money for it rightnow. Right?

Eric Bomyea (26:01):
Sorry. That's a big mission of ours is how can we
bring this work to more people?How do we make it more
accessible to more people? Andthe reason why we're doing the
Instagram live breath practicesis for a couple of reasons. One
is that a sixty minute class issometimes a high barrier to

(26:23):
entry for a lot of people.
Especially if you have travel toit. If you have to travel to it
and now all of a sudden it's nota sixty minute commitment, it's
an hour and a half commitment.And that is a huge barrier to
entry for many people. The otheris that sometimes in person is
scary. And so let's figure out away to do that virtually.

(26:47):
And then the other is that thekind of impromptu nature of a
live versus something on demandand invite people into, oh,
well, happening now, like,what's my excuse? Like, let me
just let me just try it.

Tom Bruett (27:00):
So I just love what you're saying. I mean, my
philosophy really is just it'san experiment. Just try a little
experiment. Doesn't mean you'recommitting to this for the rest
of your life. But if you'rebreathing into your big toe or
you're taking and doing anInstagram live, just try it.
What do you have to lose?

Timothy Bish (27:12):
So in men's work spaces, we talk a lot about the
nervous system. I'm just gonnaspeak from my own experience.
When I was a young gay boy andthen moving into New York City
to become a professional dancer.Alright.

Eric Bomyea (27:26):
Was so hydrated by the end of this.

Tom Bruett (27:28):
I will yeah.

Timothy Bish (27:28):
Because I'm just gonna keep saying it now. I I
was crippled with anxiety thatwould manifest as like pretty
intense digestive like issues.And it would it would create a
thing where I would sometimeschoose to not eat if I had to go
out because I would be afraidthat I would have to use the
bathroom. There would be momentswhen I would be afraid, like, in
performances to be like, if Ican't make it on stage, like,

(27:49):
this is what you should dowithout me, like, that kind of
thing. And, and what I'velearned in personal experience
and then observing is that thesepractices really were and have
been a tool.
Believe it or not, I'm I'm waymore relaxed and less anxious
than I have been. So, yeah, alot of progress has been made.
Now to the question of we inmen's work, we'll talk about the

(28:12):
nervous system and sort ofmoving charges, dispersing these
things. And I I sometimes relateit to ducks flapping their wings
or dogs sort of like, you know,do you work in that way? Do you
talk about it like that?
And do you find that helpful?And if not, what would be?

Tom Bruett (28:29):
I talk about the brain a lot because when I'm
doing couples work or relationalwork, like, it's a lot of people
who are in their brains. And sojust understanding the way that
the brain works in conflict andunderstanding like the hand
model of the brain, Dan Siegel'smodel, where it's very very
simple. These are your fourfrontal fingers or your frontal
cortex, that's the thinkingbrain. Your thumb is your
amygdala, you're fight flightfreeze, and so if you are

(28:51):
activated in the way you'retalking about, if you're anxious
and your thumb is out, you can'tthink, right? So you just have
to stop, you have to get intoyour body in that moment.
And then you do brainstemexercises, which is breathing
exercises or getting into yourbody. That's the only way that
you can actually get back intoyour body and into your nervous
system if your thumb is out. Andso that's like the most

(29:13):
important thing that I teachcouples right away is like, you
have to understand this isneuroscience. And then, you
know, how can you bring it intoyour body in a a way that
actually can give you some somefreedom?

Timothy Bish (29:24):
Wait. That is so huge that I'm gonna I'm gonna
try to say it again and thenhave you say it again because I
I think I think we really needto because I think sometimes
with men's work, people think ofit as sort of like, you know, up
on its mountaintop, like rubbingthe crystals together sort of
like, you know, whatever. Andyou're like, no. This is this is
real. Our our our brains and ournervous systems are are a

(29:45):
system.
And if we are one pedal ispressed all the way, we we have
to do something or or it's we'renot going to change that. And
that's what I'm hearing. We haveto make a change physically or
we can't think our way out of anintense amygdala fear response.
Is that what I'm hearing?

Tom Bruett (30:03):
Yes, because the brain, you know, you have to do
brain stem activities. Brainstem activities are the, you
know, the brain stem is theoldest part of the brain, so
it's getting into the body, it'swhat controls sex, appetite, all
that kind of stuff. So you haveto get into the body in some
way. There's lots of differentways you can do that, but you
have to get into the body.

Timothy Bish (30:19):
So you're talking about movement, posture, breath,
sound, all of the things thatwe're doing in embodiment
practices are ways, And so andI'm only getting excited because
I've said this. I'm like, youguys take these things if they
work for you and bring them intoyour life when you can. So, yes,
there are times where we dosomething called like a Shakti
shake. Maybe you can't always dothat, you know, when you're

(30:40):
stressed out before yourbusiness meeting, But you can do
deep regulated breath, andthere's like all these different
kinds that people don't evenhave to know you're doing.
Right?
And so so, yes, it's like thesetools that can actually shift,
create a real shift, and thenthat shift can allow you what
sounds like some space for moreconscious choice making.

Tom Bruett (31:01):
It's the only way. It's literally the only way. If
you don't do that, your thumb isnot going to come back online
and your frontal cortex is notgoing to come back online and
then you can't think. Not goingto have executive function.

Timothy Bish (31:11):
So exactly. So so okay so just a little bit more
about that then. Are are we'rewe're being dominated right now
by a reptilian like brain oramygdala, and then if we don't
take action, are we are webasically just in instinct and
survival? Can you speak a littlebit about that?

Tom Bruett (31:28):
So yes. If your if your amygdala is activated, the
first step is noticing thatthat's happening. So many people
don't even know it. They justthey they've been in that space
for so long that they they justreact. So there's something,
another Dan Siegel conceptcalled the window of tolerance.
So the window of tolerance iswhen your brain is all online,
everything's working smoothly,you can think, you can make
really good, you know,decisions, all that kind of

(31:50):
stuff, so you're calm, that'sall happening. You can either go
into one of two states therewhen your thumb comes out.
Hyperarousal, that's where likethings feel like too much, you
get angry, rageful, likeanxious, all that kind of stuff,
addiction happens there. Or yougo to hypoarousal, that's when
you start to shut down, you numbout, you know, you and so you
have to kind of realize what'shappening, and so you have to

(32:11):
know when you go into hypoarousal, what are the things
that happen for you, and whenyou go into hyper arousal, what
are the things that happen foryou? And then you have all these
tools that you guys aredescribing that you can do in
those moments to get back intothe body.

Timothy Bish (32:23):
So hyperarousal I have to assume then is I'm
shouting, I'm sending impulsivetexts, I'm being
confrontational. Hypo arousalmight be I'm withdrawing. I'm,
like, looking to numb. Or or isthis generally and so those

Tom Bruett (32:38):
exactly right.

Timothy Bish (32:38):
That's what people would be looking for then. Oh,
so every time you start numbingyourself with fill in the blank,
that might be a sign that you'renot you're not an executive
function.

Tom Bruett (32:49):
And then that's a great time to do some breath
work or to stretch or do someyoga or what whatever. Right?
There's so many options, butyou've got to have those tools
in your toolbox. So when I'mworking with people, that's one
of the first things that I helppeople figure out.

Eric Bomyea (33:02):
Oh, I love that. And such a powerful reflection
of the power of these practises,how to get us back into that
state where we can be making thebest decisions that we can for
ourselves. And so I'm curious,bringing it back to partnership
and bringing it back to sex, ifsomebody's starting to

(33:24):
experience hyper or hypo arousalin those states, how can we work
with our partners?

Tom Bruett (33:30):
This is going to bring me to the topic of
consent, which I feel like inour community is not always
fully understood. And so BettyMartin, who's a researcher, has
done so much great work on thisand she has something called the
wheel of consent. And so ifyou're trying to do something,
right, if like, say I amrealizing I'm in hypo arousal
and I want something for mypartner, like, can I ask for it?

(33:51):
Can I say, will you do thisthing? And then is your partner
going say, I will or no I won't?
Or if you, you know, I want tohug you, may I hug you? Yes you
may or no you won't. So often inour spaces, we just sort of go
to it, right? We go to physicaltouch, and then if you
especially if you had some sortof trauma in your life, that can
be even more traumatizing. Andso I think in our partnerships,

(34:12):
there's gotta be like afoundation of consent and a
communication, a way to talkabout this stuff.

Eric Bomyea (34:17):
And in those cases where we're in an intimate
relationship with somebody andwe are working through and maybe
I'm a client of yours and I amtrying to do my own practices,
right? I've noticed that, oh, mythumb is out. And I've now
coming back to myself, like, howcould I be working with my
partner through that as well? Ifwe're in a physical moment and
my thumb comes out and I'msaying, Oh, I'm trying to work

(34:39):
with myself, how can my partneralso work

Timothy Bish (34:41):
with me?

Tom Bruett (34:42):
That's why I because by definition, right, if your
executive function is offline,not gonna be able to speak as
eloquently as you just did

Eric Bomyea (34:49):
there. So

Tom Bruett (34:50):
sometimes I I say just do this, just just do the
thumbs out motion. That's enoughto say I need a break.

Eric Bomyea (34:56):
I love it.

Tom Bruett (34:58):
And then do some practices and then come back
after you've had an opportunityto get back into your body.

Eric Bomyea (35:03):
But when there is such a pressure on the
physicality of sex to beperformative, to be this it has
to look this exact way, like, Ihave to be erect the entire time
and I can't take breaks and Ihave to get to the finish line.
And if I don't, then I'm not aman. Right? If I don't, then I'm
a failure at sex. And just thecourage to say, okay, we're in

(35:24):
the middle of something andthumbs out.
I need to take a pause. Andwhat's gonna happen? I'm gonna
lose my erection. You might loseyour erection. Whatever we were
doing might have to come to a astandstill.
It doesn't mean that it's over.It doesn't mean that we failed.
It means that we have anopportunity here to demonstrate
a different type of intimacy.And then if things are picking

(35:49):
back up, we can get right backon the train.

Timothy Bish (35:52):
I'm curious. It sounds to me like this awareness
of our amygdala, I. E. Our thumbout, versus not, probably
probably ups up mainly outsideof a sexual context.

Tom Bruett (36:08):
Not always.

Timothy Bish (36:08):
Yeah. I mean, not always. But I so I feel like a
lot of this practice isn't Iknow that we're talking about
embodied sex today, but a lot ofthe practice of being able to
communicate with your partnerthat you have slipped into that
state or that you are in a bitof overwhelm, I a lot of that
practice is gonna happen day today, like over the dishes, on
the phone, like that kind ofthing. And and then, yes, of
course, it could it could finditself in the bedroom, but the

(36:33):
practice doesn't have to beexclusively in the bedroom. Is
that am I hearing you right?

Tom Bruett (36:36):
Absolutely right. Yeah. Absolutely right. And the
and the way you were justdescribing, like, saying my
thumbs out during sex and yourerections, I mean, that is,
like, real vulnerability. Thatis super authentic.
And, I mean, I certainly craveto have that in my partnerships
and, you know, I think a lot ofpeople do.

Timothy Bish (36:51):
That to me feels like like an advanced the the
ability to get there doesn'tfeel like the kind of thing that
you can do immediately. It feelslike the the awareness that you
would have to build over overtime practicing, looking,
curiosity, insight, sharing.

Tom Bruett (37:09):
Yeah. The first step is just noticing that your thumb
is going out. Getting to knowyour nervous system a little bit
better. And then doing somepractices. Like you can practice
or even it's better to practicewhen your thumb is not out.

Timothy Bish (37:21):
Sure. And then I have to since we're since we're
talking about embodiment, I haveto imagine then going back to
that awareness of what we'refeeling is one major tool of
knowing if our thumb is up.Right? So for me, I blush. I I
can feel the heat when when I'mstarting to get upset, which is
frustrating because I feelbetrayed by it.
I can't really hide it. But butit's a physical sensation that I

(37:45):
have that lets me know I'mfeeling upset. I'm feeling
unsafe, whatever the thing is.If a person isn't yet connected
to those things, then going intotheir body can help them
understand, oh, I'm feelingwarm. I'm feeling tired, I'm
feeling foggy, right?
All the all of these which couldbe sensations many of which
wouldn't be just sort of headenergy experiences.

Tom Bruett (38:08):
A 100% and so whether you're somebody because
some people are more cognitiveright they'll go right to the
thought, Some people are morebody sensation. However your
nervous system works, it's okay.Start there.

Eric Bomyea (38:19):
What would be the difference there? If somebody is
more cognitive, what dialoguemight they be having with
themselves versus more of thefelt sense? Get an example
there.

Tom Bruett (38:29):
Yeah, so the felt sense is going to be more like,
oh, I'm feeling like my stomachis hurting or, you know, oh, I'm
blushing or, you know, that'sgoing be more the physical. The
thought is going to be morelike, oh gosh, I've got a
million different things to dotoday. Oh, did I do that right?
Oh, I don't think I did thatright. You know, like that voice
inside that is just never goingto let you off that hamster
wheel.

Timothy Bish (38:49):
So let's for a moment assume that in a
partnership two people are bothrelaxed and in executive
function, and they want to startto bring a deeper level of
embodiment into their intimacyand sexual interaction? How
might someone just learningbegin?

Tom Bruett (39:10):
I mean there's lots of different routes here, but
the one that's coming to mind asyou're asking that question is
something called 'sensatefocused'. And so it's actually a
practice where you don't, it'snot orgasm focused, so take
orgasm off the table. I knowthere's so much pressure, right,
to have an orgasm, orgasm iswhat sex is, and just like it's

(39:31):
a multiple session kind ofprotocol, where you're going to
first start fully clothed, andmaybe you're going to just like
hold hands lying in bed, or rubeach other's shoulders, or like
do something that feels good,and with consent, you know,
practice like, may I rub yourshoulders? Like does this feel
good? Do you want it harder?
Do you want it softer? Like toget into the practice of

(39:52):
communicating when there's nopressure of sex whatsoever, no
pressure of orgasm. That's areally good place for a lot of
people to start. It feels superweird, you know, people are not
people don't love that idea, Butbut the freedom that can come
when you take orgasm and sex andpenetrative sex off the table is
just huge.

Eric Bomyea (40:10):
Like, if I got on the apps today, like, how would
I even, like, talk to a partnerabout that? Like, I'm like, hey.
Do you wanna come over and justrub my shoulders?

Tom Bruett (40:17):
Right? Like

Eric Bomyea (40:17):
like that seems so foreign in gay culture today.
Yeah. Right.

Timothy Bish (40:22):
Like I want I want the button that says shoulder
rubs. Truly.

Eric Bomyea (40:25):
But the amount of times that I've been shamed for
like even including side on myprofile back in the day, like,
I'm like, I can't even ask for ashoulder massage. Like, I feel
like it's just it's I love this.I love this so much because,
like, is such an intimate momentthat seems really far away for
at least for for me. I want it.I crave it.
But, like, how do I even, like,ask for it? How do I even get

(40:47):
it?

Tom Bruett (40:47):
But even if you're gonna ask for a blowjob. Right?
Like, there there are theblowjobs on the app where it's
like the guy comes over,blowjob, and leaves. Right? Can
you can you turn that into amoment that actually has a
little bit more connection?
Can you look into each other'seyes? Can you touch his body in
a different way? Like are thereways that you can, even in those
small interactions, because Iknow it's really easy to find
those, can you try to bring someconnection into those moments?

Timothy Bish (41:11):
That example is a practice that one person could
be doing without having a bigconversation. So right now we're
talking about trying to have anembodied experience from a
grinder. Chances are you don'tknow this person. Right? That
could still be something that ifI'm working with my own
experience of embodiment, oh,I'm gonna I'm gonna bring some
touch.
You don't have to tell theperson, oh, I'm gonna practice

(41:33):
some embodiment, likesensational awareness while I,
like, approach your genitalsbefore I do the thing to them
that we agreed to. Right? Whichby the way is really sexy. So
I'm gonna use that. So I justthis is like so if someone's
listening, it doesn't have to bebecause part of what I'm hearing
you say is, oh, with two peoplewho really care and are trying

(41:54):
to meet each other, you couldthen have a really robust
conversation about how to meeteach other.
But if in this example, you'relike, I can just try touching
you differently and seeing howthat feels and seeing how you
react. I mean, this is all inassuming that, like, everyone is
consenting. But yeah. So it is apersonal practice.

Tom Bruett (42:10):
A personal practice. I mean just just pay attention
to the five senses, right? Imean sex is a very sensual
experience. When you're doingthat blowjob, what does it smell
like? What does it taste like?
What does it feel like? Is thereis there heat in your body? Like
without even the other person somuch weighing into it, you can
you can try to make it moreembodied for yourself. Is that
like gonna be the be all end allmost fulfilling thing for most

(42:31):
people? Probably not.
Right? But it's a step. And so Ithink this can just feel so
overwhelming and then peoplecould go into that collapsed
state of like, well, the wholegay community is fucked, and
everybody just is transactional,and I don't think that's a super
healthy or helpful spot either,because then you're just in the
hopelessness. And so we've gotto like find a way to like take
small steps out of it. And it itis I wish I could say it's gonna

(42:55):
be easy, but it's it's gonnatake all of us like bringing a
little bit more awareness to theto the table.

Timothy Bish (43:00):
Do you have a theory on if we should and how
we could deemphasize the orgasmin gay male sex or queer sex?
Because to be clear, I love Ilove having orgasms, but I I
hear you when you said earlierthere can be a freedom in, but
it isn't a requirement for thisto have been worthwhile.

Tom Bruett (43:24):
There's so many couples who come in and so we
just have to be honest aboutfacts, right? So thirty percent
of the time at 30 you're goingto have erectile
disappointments, forty percentof the time at 40, fifty percent
of the time at 50, and so if wecall them disappointments and we
just make them a part of growingolder, the privilege of growing
older, like it's going tohappen. And so can you go into

(43:46):
an experience and so oftenpartners will take it personally
like, oh, he didn't come and sothat means that he's not into
me. Like, woah, let's detanglethat logic there for a moment,
right? Like he didn't come maybebecause he didn't want to come.
So one of the principles isreally you're in charge of your
own orgasm. And so if you wantto come, you're in charge of
that. If you don't want to come,that's okay, right? And so you

(44:08):
just getting to a place ofdifferentiation around my
partner is going to tell me whathe needs to feel pleasure, I'm
going to be responsible for mypleasure and we can communicate
that about and negotiate aboutthat, but like I'm not taking on
his orgasm.

Timothy Bish (44:21):
There was there was this article that I read
about human physiology and oursexual desire matched with our
intimate connection. And oftenas as we deepen intimately with
someone, the shifting in oursexual desire, is there a truth
to that? And is there anythingworth talking about there so
that we understand? Because Ithink one experience that I've

(44:44):
had is I start to deepen myconnection with someone and then
feel jealousy when this newstrange stranger is able to
elicit a response that I seem tonot be able to anymore or not as
consistently or

Tom Bruett (44:58):
My thoughts would be that it that it's so individual
that like for some people thethe closer that they get to
somebody, the more eroticallyturned on they are, and that for
some people the closer they getto somebody, the less erotically
turned on they are. So I thinkit's really about like the
individual getting to know yournervous system. Whatever it is,
it's natural, it's okay, butjust know yourself, and don't

(45:19):
try to compare yourself to yourpartner or partners.

Timothy Bish (45:21):
So if you're in a relationship where one person is
deepening their sexualconnection because of that
emotional connection and theother one is pulling away, or
not pulling away, but, they'rehaving a different experience,
how do you help them meet eachother?

Tom Bruett (45:34):
This would be like the the way we're talking about
it now, like more of classicallyif we think about it from like
an attachment scienceperspective, the anxious, more
anxious person than the moreavoidant person, and so it's
tricky, and that's where you canI mean that's the desired
differences and why it can take,you know, sometimes months and
months in in couples therapy andsex therapy to work through this
because you gotta get to what'sactually going what's at the

(45:56):
root of this? And then, for somepeople, like, again, owning your
own pleasure, what turns you on,what are breaks, you know, there
there's a model in sex therapycalled the that that you compare
sex to a car. And so we all haveaccelerators and brakes.
Accelerators are things you turnon that turn you on. Brakes are
things that turn you off.
Just like a car, if a brake ispressed down, doesn't matter how

(46:18):
hard you press on theaccelerator, you're not going
anywhere. And so getting to knowwhat your turn ons and turn offs
are, that way you can tell yourpartner. Right? Like, oh, when
you like nibble my ear, that'sgonna probably push the
accelerator a little bit. And soif you're feeling avoidant, I
can push the accelerator andmaybe that will bring us into
more a more connectedexperience.
Maybe it won't.

Eric Bomyea (46:38):
And some of your advice earlier, try. Try. If
you're both consenting andyou're willing to, like, you
know, meet each other in theseways, try. Yeah. It can feel a
little scary.
It can feel a little risky, but,like, what's the worst that
happens? You lose your erectionand then you start over? Just
saying that I'm like, oh, that'sterrifying. But then I'm like,
okay. Like, it's not the end ofthe world.
It's okay.

Tom Bruett (46:56):
Yeah. It's it's gonna happen to all of us, like,
just taking the pressure off ofit because pressure the more
with with erectiledisappointments, like, the more
pressure you put on it, theworse it gets, and so it's just
like, you gotta just get to aplace of getting to more
embodiment, and I thinkembodiment practices can be
really good for any kind of, youknow, whether it's premature
ejaculation or recountdisappointments, being more in

(47:18):
your body is going to help.

Timothy Bish (47:18):
Yeah, think embodiment practice and just
broadening our understanding ofour capacity to feel different
sensation is really powerfulbecause there are so many things
that can be pleasurable. And Ithink that we often kind of
ignore those. And we go to theit's the menu. You're like, we

(47:39):
go right to the entree, we'vekind of, like, skipped all the
appetizers, and that's as far asthat metaphor can go. But you
gotta you gotta so inembodiment, we're like, oh, I
can feel a tingling here and anachiness there simultaneously.
I can feel a coolness and awarmth. Like, you know, you
start to be like, oh, well, thenmaybe I can enjoy a lingering

(47:59):
touch that isn't fucking.

Eric Bomyea (48:02):
The intimacy of a back rub, the sensation of a
back rub. And sometimes be Weactually had We have a guest
that came on who was at aradical fairy gathering and was
participating in sex magic. Hispartner is a sex magic
facilitator. And there wasn't awhole lot of penetrative or oral

(48:27):
sex happening during this wholepractice. And he said that in
his years of living and he cameto Provincetown, Provincetown
during the seventies andeighties.
So he's seen a lot of differentthings and has experienced a lot
of different things. The mostintimate act of sex that he's
ever had was simply holdingsomebody's hand during the

(48:50):
circle. And it was such aprofound moment. Like, oh, wow.
You deeply connected withsomebody in a way that most of
us wouldn't consider as a sexualact.
But in that in thatcircumstance, it was for him.
And I was like, that was really,really beautiful.

Tom Bruett (49:06):
I'm getting emotional just hearing you talk
about that. I think it's sobeautiful.

Eric Bomyea (49:09):
Really. And I think what I'm hearing in this
conversation is the allowance totry different things, experiment
with different things, to be incontrol of my own pleasure and
responsible for my own pleasureand not that of my partner's.
And really being invested in mypartner's pleasure, but not

(49:32):
owning it or trying to takeresponsibility for it.

Tom Bruett (49:35):
Being open to doing things that may enhance their
pleasure, but not taking it onas your full responsibility.

Eric Bomyea (49:41):
And being in an embodied state where I can first
and foremost understand what'sgoing on with myself. Is my
thumb out or is my thumb in?What's happening there? And then
being able to work with myselfand then ultimately with
somebody else to see whatexperiences I can have from
there. With that, I am feelingvery complete with this
conversation, so we're justgonna make the rounds.

(50:03):
Tim, how are you feeling? I feelcomplete. Tom?

Tom Bruett (50:05):
Yeah. I I just wanna say like, I I am not an expert
in this. I am in the trenchestrying to figure this out for
myself just as much as I'mtrying to like help others, and
so I just want to be very clear,I have not fully figured this
out. It's still an explorationprocess for myself, and I hope
that it's an exploration processfor the rest of my life that I'm
continuing to figure out, youknow, what is more pleasurable,

(50:27):
how can I be more embodied, whatkind of sex do I want to have?
Like I think these are they'recertainly important things for
me to think about for the restof my life.

Timothy Bish (50:34):
Thank you for saying that. It draws back on,
what you were saying earlierwhen you're going to school and
a lack of, queer resources in inyour continuing education. We're
not experts in queer men'sembodiment either. We just are
hopefully the beginning of aconversation that we will deepen

(50:54):
and deepen. And so I love owningthat because I'm willing to go
back and correct anything that Igot wrong.
I would also love for you tocome back. Come back in a year.
See what, like, what you knowwhat mean? Like, what did we
learn in the year? Because itisn't about getting it right,
perfectly, I think.
It's about doing our best toshine a light of awareness and

(51:16):
move in the right direction ofgrowth and progress. And and
that's really the mission. Sothank you for saying it because
we are allowed to continue toevolve. And if we don't do it,
you know, who's going to? So so,yes, we are not held to the
standard of perfection, andwe're doing the best we can.

Eric Bomyea (51:31):
That's right.

Timothy Bish (51:32):
Yeah. So we'll come back in a year. Let's like
keep talking.

Tom Bruett (51:34):
You got it.

Eric Bomyea (51:35):
And I love like, yeah, let's be brave explorers
together. And like, keepexploring your journey. I'm
gonna keep exploring mine. Tim,will you keep exploring this?

Timothy Bish (51:45):
I mean, I'm committed to eye contact and
central touching with everygrinder blow job.

Tom Bruett (51:50):
Wait. Wait.

Eric Bomyea (51:52):
Actually, I do wanna go back to that because
when you were describing thatexperience, was like, think I
know the title of this episode.I think it's gonna be like like
meditating while blowing. Right?Because like your definition of
of mindfulness or meditation waslike, are you connected to your
senses? So what's a mindful blowjob look like?

Timothy Bish (52:10):
I love it.

Tom Bruett (52:11):
I'm into it.

Timothy Bish (52:13):
It will it'll be like it'll be research, and
we'll bring back what we'velearned. And then we'll we'll go
to the next level. In the spiritof research.

Eric Bomyea (52:20):
It is fun. I'm redownloading Grindr right after
this. Just kidding. No. Mymental health.

Tom Bruett (52:24):
Just go to the dick,

Eric Bomyea (52:25):
doc. You'll be fine. My mental health still
can't handle it. It's fine.Alright.
With that, now I'm feelingcomplete. As am I. Tom?

Tom Bruett (52:32):
Me too.

Eric Bomyea (52:32):
Well, Tim, will you take us out, please?

Timothy Bish (52:34):
Well, let's close our eyes or lower our gaze and
take a deep inhale through thenose. Gentle exhale through the
mouth. And it is with deepappreciation and gratitude for
any insights, awarenesses, orunderstandings that we gained in
the sacred shared space that wenow release the archetypes and
the spirits that we called in.With these words, our container

(52:54):
is open but not broken.