In this episode of The Circle Podcast, we go all in on the often-overlooked role of joy in men’s work and embodiment practices. While grief, anger, and fear frequently dominate men’s spaces, joy remains an underdeveloped muscle—one that, when cultivated, can become a profound source of purpose and connection.
Eric and Tim unpack why many men struggle to access joy, how societal conditioning stifles its expression, and why joy is just as essential as any other emotion in personal growth. They examine the embodied nature of joy—how it moves through the body, signals alignment with purpose, and serves as a powerful guidepost for transformation.
Through raw and insightful conversation, we uncover:
- Why joy is often absent in men’s spaces—and why it needs to be reclaimed
- How cultural and personal conditioning suppress joy in men’s lives
- The connection between joy, presence, and deeper emotional awareness
- How embracing joy can shift relationships, purpose, and personal fulfillment
Join us as we challenge the narratives that keep joy at a distance and explore how opening to it can create a fuller, more integrated experience of masculinity and life.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric Bomyea (00:05):
Welcome back to The Circle. My name's Eric, and this
is Tim. Together, we exploremen's work, embodiment
practices, and personal growththrough our queer perspective.
If you haven't already, pleasebe sure to like, subscribe, and
leave us a review. Today, we'rediving into joy.
Why it's important, why it canbe elusive, and how men's work
can help open us up toexperience more of it. Tim, are
(00:26):
you ready to go all in?
Timothy Bish (00:27):
I am. Let's do this then. Let's do it.
Eric Bomyea (00:29):
So Tim, you and I have sat in a lot of circles
where we've seen men sit withgrief, anger, fear, but joy?
That seems a little bit moreelusive. So today we're gonna
dive into that and talk abouthow in men's work we often say
we're in these spaces to faceour shadows. But what about our
light? What role do you see joyplaying in a man's personal
growth?
Timothy Bish (00:49):
Well, I think that joy is an essential component
for finding our purpose andpassion in life. And joy is a
tricky thing because men havebeen historically allowed to
have certain kinds of emotions,which is why I think in these
(01:10):
spaces, we're doing a lot ofexploration of darkness, of
sadness, of grief, ofloneliness, because they have
been off the table. We're notsupposed to be impacted by those
or or we're only supposed to beimpacted by them in very
particular ways, and so we'vecompartmentalized them. So we
walk in kind of needing a fullexperience of them. Well, joy,
(01:36):
happiness, these sorts ofthings, we're allowed to have,
but we're supposed to have themin particular ways.
Right? And so, and I I just havethis feeling that a lot of
people are like, you have to bemindful of exactly how joyful
you are in the way in which youare joyful or happy or effulgent
(01:57):
because you wouldn't want it toseem gay. Right? So, like, how
can I be how can I still signalto you that I'm, like, super
masculine but enjoying thismoment? And so that I think joy
gets tricky because we probablytry to customize it in a
(02:17):
particular way, in a palatableway.
Like, I can be happy, but I haveto be happy and still be these
other things.
Eric Bomyea (02:24):
And so it's to have to look a certain way or be
expressed in a certain way orfor a certain duration of time.
Timothy Bish (02:30):
Right. So, you know, I think one of the images
I have is the, watching theSuper Bowl or any football game
really, And you're with yourbuddies and, like, the team does
something you want them to doand you're very happy. You get
that sort of big effulgent,like, yeah. You know? But it's
like, there's still, like, alevel of, like, intensity to
that.
And can we have other can we beaware of other kinds of joy? And
(02:56):
I feel like that's a thing thatwe need to work on. So can I
experience joy when it is alittle more subtle, when it is
softer, when it isn't the bigscream? Mhmm. And and only when
we can start to feel thatexperience and start to
recognize it regularly will westart to understand the things
(03:20):
about in our life that we'repassionate about or the and that
lead us to our purpose.
Because joy, the way that Idescribe it, are like little
breadcrumbs from Hansel andGretel. Right? And the more
times you notice thatexperience, chances are you're
on the right path. And if you'reon a path where you only get a
few breadcrumbs or nobreadcrumbs, that should
probably indicate something toyou. But how many of us are
(03:44):
walking down a path and we we'reso disconnected from the
experience of joy that we can'teven recognize if there are or
are not breadcrumbs on our path?
And so joy is, as I said, like aguidepost to passion and
purpose, but we need to be ableto experience it and recognize
that experience in order toutilize that guidepost.
Eric Bomyea (04:04):
Yeah. So what I'm hearing is it sounds like, joy
is more of an embodiedexperience than it is
necessarily an emotion. So,like, I'm just trying to
rationalize this for myself.Right? Like, joy and happiness
in my brain could be synonyms.
But what I'm hearing is that joyis more embodied, right? It's
more of that, like, how does itfeel in my body and the
recognition of it? How does thatfull rapture of energy feel. And
(04:30):
so can we unpack that a littlebit more and talk about how joy
might show up in the body?
Timothy Bish (04:35):
Yeah. I mean, I can talk to you about how I
think it shows up in my body.And I should say, just going
back, I did a little research,and so there is a distinction
between joy and happiness, butthere's a lot of disagreement
about precisely what thatdistinction is. But I do think
you're right that joy is anexperience that we can have an
embodied experience of, and thatembodied experience can be
(04:56):
really informative. For me, joyhas a lightness to it.
Joy has an ease. It is a steady,calm, easiness to it. It isn't
exactly excitement, althoughexcitement can be so the thing
(05:18):
about, you know, emotions withthese experiences is they can
be, like, crossover. So I can bejoyful and excited. I can, you
know, joyful and a lot ofthings.
Joyful and, you know, quietlycontent or Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (05:27):
We can do two things at once. Yeah.
Timothy Bish (05:28):
But so so the feeling of joy for me feels like
it's lightness and ease,whereas, like, anxiety feels
like tension and holding oranger feels like heat. You know?
But I imagine, you know, forevery person listening to this,
there might be a slightlydifferent experience of joy, you
know, depending on who they are,how they are, their
(05:50):
constitution, and theirupbringing, and, you know, their
experiences.
Eric Bomyea (05:52):
Yeah. Because my experience of joy is more of
like a full body radiance. Idon't feel it in any one
particular place. It's like myentire body is just like fully
online.
Timothy Bish (06:01):
Well, you talked about this last night in the
circle because I told you thatego eradicator, an embodiment
practice for those of you whoare new to this. It's a it's a
an embodiment practice. It'ssometimes also referred to as
radiance charger, which is likein the Kundalini yoga tradition,
and it's a more trauma informedway of of discussing it, And you
(06:24):
really like that. So when yousaid you were feeling your
radiance, can you try to goinward and talk about that from
the felt sense perspective? Whatdoes that mean to you?
Eric Bomyea (06:34):
The radiance of joy to me was this full body
experience where it just lit meup, lit up every inch of my body
inside and out. There wasn't asingle place of darkness. It was
just like a full body and itreally brought me into the
moment. And as I studied my ownreaction and my own experience
(06:58):
of joy, I really started tounderstand that for me, joy is
when I'm fully present, wherethere is nothing else that
matters in this life except forright here, right now. So if
it's doing something withsomebody or by myself or in a
group, if if the rest of theworld melts away, I'm in a state
(07:22):
of joy.
Timothy Bish (07:22):
Well, I'm really glad that you said that because
I was, as you know, relisteningor rereading the Velvet Rage,
and he mentions this, we cannotrecognize our joy if we're not
present. So this idea that joyis an experience that's
happening in the present, and ifwe are not present because we
(07:43):
are thinking you know,forecasting into the future or
ruminating about the past, itmight become invisible to us.
And so why is embodiment such animportant practice for men,
especially if they're lookingfor joy in in the pursuit of
their purpose and passion?Although, to be clear, joy like,
(08:03):
looking for joy is a a validpursuit in and of itself. We're
not gonna be able to do that ifwe don't know how to be present.
And embodiment helps us to
Eric Bomyea (08:12):
be present. Practice being present. And it
is. It's something that, like, Ifound really interesting is
that, like like, I can practiceat joy, just like I can practice
with my edges of sadness, anger,grief, and frustrations, right?
I hadn't really considered how Icould incorporate embodiment
(08:34):
practices in a cultivation ofthat.
Like I said earlier, I thinkthat I've really come to learn
or see men's work as a way toexplore my shadow, and now
starting to see it as a way toreally also dive into my light.
Timothy Bish (08:49):
Right. And that I hope is a big takeaway from the
last two circles here inProvincetown, this idea that joy
is a thing that we can practice.And as I mentioned in the
circles, the yogis knew this fora long time. And so in the Yoga
Sutras, there are very fewmentions of the practice of
asana, asana meaning seat orconnection to the earth, but
frequently, associated solelywith the practices of physical
(09:14):
postures and and shapes of thebody. There are very little
mentions of it because yoga isso gigantic, but this one
mention, the connection to theearth should be steady and
joyful.
And it's an indication that wearen't doing them so this is the
(09:34):
thing about joy. We're like, wecan't walk around the world sort
of hoping joy hits us. We havewe we can instead practice
working with joy, and that'swhat the yogis do. So when I'm
doing my asana practice, yes, Ican be very serious and
spiritual. Lots of people kindof go to that place.
(09:55):
You could also practice beingjoy being joyful. Can you make
this posture a joyful posture?Can you bring joy into a posture
that is otherwise reallychallenging, in the same way
that we would do withsteadiness? So I'm in a
balancing posture, and I'mstruggling to keep my balance,
and I'm, like, practicing withsteadiness. Can I do it?
(10:15):
And then but the thing is, it'slike, but if I fall out of my
tree pose this is why I say inmy yoga classes, if you fall out
of a pose, you've got a smile.
Eric Bomyea (10:22):
I smile a lot, y'all.
Timothy Bish (10:24):
If I fall out of tree pose where I was practicing
steadiness, can I now practicejoy? In the same way that I
would practice joy if I foundthat tree pose and was like, oh,
we've all had that moment.
Eric Bomyea (10:35):
Nailed it.
Timothy Bish (10:35):
Oh, I'm nailing this. I'm like, this is
impressive. I feel incredible.Yeah. And I've done that, like I
Eric Bomyea (10:41):
didn't know my body could move like that or, like,
hold this position. Like, I'mnow celebrating myself. And,
yeah, the
Timothy Bish (10:46):
the I mean, remember one time I was
demonstrating a handstand atJiva Mukti Yoga, because it was,
like, the peak pose for youknow? And I popped up and for
and, like, this has almost neverhappened to me, but I'm like, I
popped right into this balance.I'm like, oh, I could hang out
here for 10 or fifteen breaths.I don't know how I did it. Of
course, I was teaching, so I didnot have that luxury.
(11:07):
Like, I had to come down. But Ihad a moment of like, oh, that
was really fun and joyful. Mhmm.Now can I practice joy when I
don't have that experience? Ihope so because that's the
experience I'm almost alwayshaving.
Handstands are tricky for me.
Eric Bomyea (11:21):
Yeah. I've never been able to do one except for
on a wall. So
Timothy Bish (11:24):
Well, every time you practice, you know, you're
practicing steadiness. And thenwhen you fall out of it, if you
smile, you're practicing joy.Yeah, love it. One of the things
I
Eric Bomyea (11:33):
when you were starting that, you said, like,
you know, if we just go throughlife expecting joy to, like, hit
us in the face, it made methink, like, yeah, like, this
external search for joy I don'tknow is how I'm going to
recognize it. I'm going torecognize joy internally. And so
that to me starts to say, theworld can't tell me how to
(11:55):
experience joy. But if I listento myself, I can find what might
be bringing me joy. And thatmakes me think of authenticity.
And I want to
Timothy Bish (12:04):
Well, before we get there, because you just
brought it up so beautifully, itfeels like you're making the
distinction between joy andvalidation.
Eric Bomyea (12:11):
And,
Timothy Bish (12:12):
yeah, again, in the book, The Velvet Rage that I
already referenced, there is thedistinction is made that joy is
an intrinsic experience comingfrom the inside out, And
validation is obviously comingfrom the outside in. Oh, I think
you look really good. I thinkyou did that really well. And
the tricky thing is, like mostthings, they can coexist. So
(12:33):
someone could validate you for athing that you feel really good
about, and now you're having,like, a dual experience.
Right? But we should be reallyclear about, well, the true joy
that we are looking for,especially if we're looking to,
like, find our passions and isgonna come from within. It
cannot be dependent on anoutside source because and I'd
(12:54):
like for us all to think aboutthis for a minute. How many
times have you done somethingreally well or you've looked
great or, you know, whatever thething is, and you don't get
validation for any number ofreasons. A lot, I would have to
imagine.
And it doesn't mean you didn'tdo it well or that you don't
(13:16):
look great. If we are dependenton someone noticing and then and
then choosing to tell us, whichcan have so many factors, many
of which have nothing to do withus, then we are setting
ourselves up for disappointment.Like, oh, that person really
recognized how great I was, butthey were in a hurry. So they
(13:37):
didn't say anything to me. If Ineed them to say something to me
and they didn't, oh, I'mterrible.
Mhmm. In reality, you're like,no. You did that great, And it's
all about this going in. So if Ican be satisfied with, I feel
really good about having donethat well, great.
Eric Bomyea (13:55):
And then anything else is icing, extra. Because
the joy can carry you through.If it's connected to joy, if the
thing that you accomplished orthe outfit that you put on or
however it is that you aremoving through the world,
expressing yourself, connectingto your authenticity, if it is
(14:15):
authentic to you, yeah, youdon't need that validation. I
don't need that validation.Sometimes I crave it.
There's no doubt about that. Butthat also is a study and a
practice for me to be like, oh,then that thing that I did,
right, wasn't really the thingthat was bringing me joy? Or
maybe I was doing it for someother alternative reason or
(14:35):
purpose.
Timothy Bish (14:36):
Well, and we are social beings, so we are allowed
to want to understand how wecoexist with other beings,
especially if they matter to us.But right, I'm thinking now of
an example, I think it wasyesterday, where I was going
about my day. I think it waskinda busy, and I wanted to do a
(14:58):
practice. I wanted to do apractice because I know I knew I
would feel better if I did it.And so I did one.
It was like a thirty minuteKundalini yoga practice, and and
I did it because of how thefeeling I cultivated within me
from the inside out. Until thismoment, or maybe I mentioned it
(15:19):
to you, I don't remember, butuntil this moment, like most of
the world did not know why I wasdoing it, and so there was no
one who was gonna be like, youdid a really great job or you're
so disciplined or any of that.It was I'm doing it because I
know how I will feel when I'mdone, and that feeling is worth
doing the thing. Connecting tothat, I think, is really
powerful. If it if it requiredsomeone else to pat me on the
(15:41):
back, then I never would havedone it because no one was gonna
come and sit in my living roomand watch me for thirty minutes.
Although, I would argue
Eric Bomyea (15:49):
I mean, some
Timothy Bish (15:49):
people did a really good job. No. No. I'm I'm
I'm kidding. And I'm hearingthat, like,
Eric Bomyea (15:56):
you tapped into something. You were able to,
like, listen to yourself andsay, what am I wanting in the
moment? What am I needing in themoment? And then being able to
recognize like, oh, I want to doa practice and I want to do this
specific practice. Coming out ofthat at the end of it and
recognizing that it brought joyis what it sounded like, or it
brought some sort ofcontentment, fulfillment, that
(16:19):
it was connected to your truth.
Right?
Timothy Bish (16:22):
And the intrinsic experience. Can I start to look
inward and notice Before I startto look outward, can I look
inward? How do I feel? How do Ifeel when I do this? And I think
we should all make that themeasure.
How do I feel when I do thisactivity or that activity? And
if the answer is more often thannot you don't feel good, I think
(16:44):
it's time to contemplate thedoing of that thing.
Eric Bomyea (16:49):
I want to go back to how we can have some of us
have had experiences where ourjoy has been policed, right? Or
our expressions of joy have beenridiculed or shamed in some sort
of way. So, I think aboutcertain expressions of joy.
Laughing joyfully, dancingjoyfully, singing joyfully, like
(17:16):
some different expressions ofjoy that to some are really
comfortable to do by themselves.Like, if somebody's got music
on, like I tend to do this alot.
Like if I'm by myself and I havemusic on, like I'll sing and
I'll dance and I'll like do allthat stuff and I like feel
present. I'm in the moment, I'mfeeling joy. But then I catch
(17:37):
myself, I'm like, what ifsomebody's at the door? What if
somebody's outside? What ifsomebody's looking in?
Right? And I start to get reallyself conscious. And so I wanna
talk about that a little bit,about how self consciousness can
prevent us from fully expressingand feeling our joy.
Timothy Bish (17:52):
I think any previous experience we had where
we were told that we're notdoing it quite the right way, it
should look a different way,we'll carry them with us until
we work through that. But, yeah,I suspect a lot of people are
managing their experience of joyso that it is palatable and
(18:17):
appropriate. I remember onetime, I was actually dancing in
a touring show, but I was in thestudio by myself and I was doing
like was just, like, boppingaround. I wasn't, like, dancing,
dancing, bopping around. And mypartner, she walked in and and
saw me, and I turned around andI was like, oh, hey.
And I think her expectation wasthat I should be embarrassed,
(18:38):
that I just got caught, like,dancing. But I wasn't, and I
understand why some people mightbe. So I think we have to start
to recognize, you know, men'swork in this podcast, all the
stuff we're doing, it's reallyhuman work. And we need to have
a conversation aroundnormalizing the entirety of the
(19:02):
human experience. So we'vetalked about this already.
Like, emotions are a humanexperience, not a feminine
experience, and then only someemotions are masculine. We've
talked about that. So what isthe the range? Like, what is the
the maximum total emotions thatwe are that are available to us?
And chances are we are allcapable of experiencing them to
(19:25):
to greater or lesser degrees.
So why would anyone beembarrassed or or feel compelled
to hide their joy, theirjubilance, their exuberation,
whatever. Is it exuberate?Exuberance. Exuberance. Thank
you.
Exuberation. Yeah. I just I justmade up a word, everyone, and I
and I feel joy about that.
Eric Bomyea (19:46):
Numerous coming next week.
Timothy Bish (19:47):
But there's a lot of cultural parts that are
stepping in to say, but itshould still seem broody. It
should still seem mysterious. Itshould still seem really
masculine. It should seem that'stoo much. I mean, if I think
about when I first heard about
Eric Bomyea (20:03):
There were times that I've been told you're too
much.
Timothy Bish (20:04):
Totally. Well, when I think about my first
introduction to pride parades,like long before I had ever been
to one or or even understoodwhat that was, I remember the
talk was about how everyone istoo much. It's too big. It's too
loud. It's too colorful.
It's too you know? And then fillin the blank. And why? Why are
(20:29):
we afraid of Joy. Bigexpressions of happiness?
Why do they have to look aparticular way? Why can't I
scream at the at the Super Bowlwhen my team gets a touchdown,
but I can't be equally happy ina different situation or
context. And I think like theemphasis on this resilience and
(20:49):
grit and I like start to thinklike how can we reframe joy Just
like we've reframedvulnerability as a strength.
Eric Bomyea (20:58):
How can we reframe joy also as a strength? And
nurturing that, that we're notjust in practice in a chi
generator to you know, hold adisciplined pose and be like,
oh, I'm super serious right now.Like, how can we also say like,
(21:19):
yeah, that is a certain type ofstrength, also strengthen
expressing myself and beingjoyful?
Timothy Bish (21:26):
Yeah. I think we have to I think we have to give
ourselves the permission to playwith it. I can't tell you how
many times I've been in men'scircles and one of two or the
only queer gay person in theroom, and I I get to the moment
when we're gonna do, like, eyegazing chi generator. And, you
know, the man in front of mewants to, like, snarl and growl
(21:48):
and, you know, which is, by theway, totally welcome, totally
valid, and also available to me.And I'm just not in that place,
and I start smiling at him.
And it's like, right. I can Ican I can engage the same thing
(22:09):
differently? They're both fine.And good thing about these men's
workspaces and spaces whereconscious people are doing
conscious work is it isaccepted. But there are still
moments where I'll see a flashof, oh, you thought I was gonna
meet you with an intensity ofone kind, and I'm meeting you
(22:29):
with a different kind.
Mhmm. So I think I think that wewe do it by playing with it, by
talking about it, and by keepcontinue to bring it. I mean,
you know, you at the at theretreat, you and your partner,
Mikey, your practice you wereoffering was one I had never
(22:51):
seen before, and it wasunapologetically, like, joy,
community base. And and I thinkthat is an example of, yeah, we
can get really primal. We cantalk about the warrior.
We can talk about the magicianand the king. Can we talk about
(23:12):
the lover in all of his forms?Or does it only have to be,
like, the lover when we are,like, ravishing our woman,
which, you know, is, like, thetalk often? Is that the only way
we can talk about the lover? Iwould argue no.
There's probably lots of ways wecan talk about the lover and the
power of the lover. There is areason that there are four
masculine primary archetypes andthe lover is one of them.
Eric Bomyea (23:36):
Speaking of retreat, like one of the things
that I recall, and I think thisgoes back to that balance of
validation and joy and how itcan be a tricky balance. So
often in these spaces, manystraight men, Men outside of the
queer community are not used toreceiving compliments. That's
(23:58):
right. Right? So one of thethings that I was doing on
retreat was I just started goingup to men and I was like, it's
effusive compliment day andyou're very handsome and you
have a great body.
And, like, I was, like,showering them with love and
praise and affection, but notin, like, a sexualized way.
(24:20):
Like, it was not sexualized atall, and they did not receive it
that way either. They were justso lit up. Were like they were
like, woah. Like, I've justreceived a compliment from
somebody that I love and trustand, like, it feels good.
And, like, they lit up. And Iwas like, yeah. Like, you can
spread joy pretty easily bythat, like, just reminding
people, you know, that veryhandsome and they have a great
body.
Timothy Bish (24:39):
Yeah. For the record, I was at that retreat
and did not receive one of thosecompliments.
Eric Bomyea (24:43):
You received it several times.
Timothy Bish (24:44):
Did I? Yeah. Okay. I was I was also I was also
really busy.
Eric Bomyea (24:48):
Because the joke ended up being like, oh, I
thought that was just for me.
Timothy Bish (24:51):
Oh, okay. Okay. That's right. Oh, that's right.
Okay.
So people really I'll own that.I'll own that. But it's
different. It's differentbetween the two of us.
Eric Bomyea (24:57):
Yeah. People really leaned into it though. And it
really was an expression of oflove. It was my expression of
the lover in a way, and it wasreceived in a way that people
could, like, activate and theycould feel joy from something
like that.
Timothy Bish (25:11):
Let's talk about that for a second because and
I'm I already have a a theory ofmy own, but I want you to just
think about all of the loveyou've ever experienced in your
lifetime. And then think abouthow much of that love was
romantic sexual love. And whenwe think of it, that I'm gonna
(25:34):
have to assume less than 50%.Right? Because we've loved our
families and our friends and ourteachers and, you know, our
communities and different we'veloved geographic locations, and
we've loved experiences.
You know? And so the idea thatwe're going to talk about this
experience as if it can only bethis one thing for it to be,
(25:58):
like, acceptable? Like, a mancan only experience, like, the
lover archetype or love whenhe's ravishing his woman. Like
or, like, occasionally when he'scaring for his children. Like,
well, what about his buddy Yeah.
That he would go to the ends ofthe earth for? Can can they tell
each other they love each other?Can we take this stigma away of,
(26:18):
oh, maybe that means that thisabout you or that about you
because we're so afraid of that?And instead, no. I'm a human
being capable of loving.
Love is good for everyone. Let'sdo more of that.
Eric Bomyea (26:33):
In in all of the ways.
Timothy Bish (26:36):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So joy. Mhmm.
Joy is a way to connect to ourpurpose. It's a way to connect
with other people. It's a way toshow a piece of ourselves that
is as important and as valid asall the other stuff we have to
do. We still have to work on ourshadows and figure out where our
triggers and our edges are. Westill have to, you know, be
(26:58):
honest with ourselves about ourshortcomings or our weaknesses
and and think about ways to, youknow, fortify all aspects of
ourselves.
But chances are we're not goingto
Eric Bomyea (27:08):
be very successful if we don't ever allow ourselves
the experience of joy. So forthose that are a little
uncomfortable with expressionsof joy, I think of I want to ask
you what practices, but I alsowant to give a spoiler, right?
Because last night Tim led theembodiment circle and we were
doing a big physical exercise.And then when we went into
(27:34):
stillness, Tim invited us intoany expression that was wanting
to come. And he had on a reallygreat song that was a fun beat.
And the invitation silently waslike, if you want to dance,
dance. And it was after a bigmovement practice where it's
hard to, for me anyway, it'shard to just come to full
(27:56):
stillness. And so that practicewas a way, from my perspective,
to help men who may be a littleuncomfortable with expressions
of joy, like dance, to kind ofbridge that gap. So I want to
just pass it over to you now andother ways that men, if they are
feeling uncomfortable with anysort of expression, how they can
(28:18):
maybe take some baby steps.
Timothy Bish (28:20):
Well, okay. Baby steps. I'm gonna I'm gonna say
the opposite of a baby step,which is sometimes you have to
give your like that fake it tillyou make it, you have to give
yourself permission to be reallybig. So, you know, in acting and
in and in theater, it'll oftensay, you know, it's better to be
bigger and have the directorpull you back than for you to be
(28:40):
too small and then have to,like, pull it out of you pull it
out of you. And so I hadmentioned, I forget when, in one
of the circles that there aremany joy and laughter practices
built into a lot of differenttraditions.
And it it just demonstrates thenecessity for sometimes like,
oh, we all need permission topractice this, and we can come
(29:05):
into a very exaggerated form ofit. Because in so doing, then I
start to get a sense of, like,where the edges of this
experience are for me and whereI tend to gravitate most
naturally. So I would say that'san important thing. But if we're
(29:26):
doing baby steps, one thing Iwould say is, you know, create a
playlist of songs that make youfeel, like, lighthearted, that
uplift you, that bring youcloser to that experience so
that you know, oh, hey. I canalways turn to this resource and
(29:46):
begin to shift my mood.
I would say if you can, journalwhen you notice. And journaling
doesn't have to be, like, longhand in in a piece of paper. It
can be, like, a note. It can bea voice memo. You know, what you
know, modern world, do whatworks for you.
Yeah. If you have a person thatyou really trust and you start
(30:08):
to share that, to be like, hey,I just wanna mention earlier
when we were doing this thing,felt a lot of joy. Because I
think really just shining thelight of your awareness or
attention on the experience ofit will clue you into it and
looking for more of it. Sothat's where I would say start.
Eric Bomyea (30:29):
I think like something that I've struggled
with is recognizing the thingsthat I can do by and for myself
that can light me up and radiateme versus the things that I do
for others. Because I'm acaregiver. I like to give a lot
of love. I like to share where Ican. I like to share my wealth.
(30:52):
I like to share my space. I loveto share my food. Whatever it is
that I have, I wanna be able togive to others. But that lights
me up and that brings me a lotof joy, that is reliant on the
other. And it's not that I everLike I have people over for soup
on Tuesday nights and like, Idon't need a compliment, right,
for the soup that I'm serving.
Yeah, it feels good. But like myjoy wasn't like preparing the
(31:16):
soup and getting it ready andthen ladling it out for people
and then, like, serving it.Like, that brings me joy.
Whether you like it or not, Idon't care.
Timothy Bish (31:25):
Well, you care a little bit. I care a little bit.
But but but, like, all the soupshave been so yummy. But I would
invite you because you talkedabout this now in the last two
circles. Maybe if you're open toan invitation are you open to an
invitation?
I am. Perhaps, you know, in theshort blessing that you say
before we all eat your delicioussoup, last night was cream of
mushroom Mhmm. And it was reallyyummy. Invite us into your
(31:51):
experience of joy. As a modelingthat like, I I derived much joy
from the process of creatingthis, and then that maybe
creates a space for other men tobe like, oh, okay.
Well, what even if they ask thequestion, well, where do I
derive joy? Or just noticingsomeone else claiming that
(32:12):
experience and and the benefitthere. So that's an invitation.
You can take it or not, but Ifeel like I feel like it would
welcome us all into, well, whereis my joy?
Eric Bomyea (32:23):
Yeah, because the reoccurring theme to men that
come over is the almost guiltthat they feel from coming over
empty handed. Because we do thisright after circle where they
may not have had the opportunityto like go out and like get
something to bring to the table.And there's this societal
expectation that you can't showup empty handed. And like, I'm
insistent. I'm like, I don'twant you to bring anything
(32:45):
because doing this brings me somuch joy.
And I almost want to say like,don't rob me of my joy.
Timothy Bish (32:50):
Well, I think you did say that last night. Made
that joke. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (32:53):
So it's like, there's that and there's also
like this aspect of like, youare enough. Like, just bringing
yourself is enough becausehaving you in my space brings me
also joy.
Timothy Bish (33:06):
Well, how many times in your life have some has
someone said that to you?Exactly. Yeah. And I bring I
bring it up for that reason.Like, for a long time, I even
when I even when I didexceptional things, it was never
enough.
And so settling into theexperience of, oh, I am enough,
(33:28):
and my fullness is wanted herewithout adornment, I think
that's a really intense practicefor a lot of people, I think
especially queer people. I willshare a story. I remember I was
doing a summer swim leagueoutside of Pittsburgh, which is
where I grew up. I lovePittsburgh. Go Pittsburgh.
Eric Bomyea (33:48):
Mhmm.
Timothy Bish (33:48):
And it was the final meet, and I was racing for
I was in a few final events, butthe one I wanted the most was
the 50 yard freestyle. I wouldlike it was like the glamour
event, and I wanted to win it.And I was so nervous, and I did
not feel like I had the supportand you know? Anyway, I ended up
(34:09):
winning the gold medal, butgetting a terrible time. Like,
relatively speaking, it was nota good time.
I I had a bad race, ultimately,but but I still won. I remember
I was happy that I won, but thenI went after we did the awards
ceremony, I went to a familygathering, spoke to my uncle,
and I was like, oh, you know, Iwon the gold medal. And he's
(34:30):
like, well, what was your time?And I told him what the time
was. He's like, ugh.
Well, he's like, you know,that's good, I guess, but, like,
you know, that time isn't and Ithink a lot of people have had
that experience of it couldn'tjust be there was always this
other thing. Right? And so if welive in a world where even when
something great happens, likearguably winning a gold medal
(34:52):
even though, you know, age group12, you know, whatever, but
winning a gold medal, that stillwasn't enough. So later in life,
when I show up at your at yoursoup with no bread or sparkling
water or whatever, you know, I'mgonna have to practice allowing
myself to be enough just as Iam. And so I think that's why
(35:14):
community here is so important,why satsang is so important.
We can remind each other, whichI think you are doing well. We
can remind each other, you'reenough. You're enough. You're
enough. And then when you havedinner, you can remind me that
I'm enough.
And when you know, like, well,that I think is built into the
men's work space is, oh,community that will remind you,
Eric Bomyea (35:35):
hopefully. Well, the 12 year old Tim, you did
great. You got the medal. Thankyou.
Timothy Bish (35:42):
Fair enough. My uncle wasn't wrong. My time was
bad. I do you know what
Eric Bomyea (35:47):
I But you were still joyful and happy having
accomplished something.
Timothy Bish (35:52):
Yeah. You know what? I really wish someone had
talked about, like, well, whywere you so nervous? And and,
like, and, like, addressed myanxiety. I'm, oh, because I
don't feel safe or protected.
Mhmm. And I feel like if I don'tdo incredible things, no one's
gonna love me. That would havebeen I mean, not that we we
don't we wanna stick with joyhere, but like, I'm like, oh,
yeah. So We can hold two thingsat once. We can hold two things
(36:14):
at once.
That that would have been a morepowerful Yeah. Oh, I'm I'm
terrified because no one herehas made me feel like I'm
enough. I always have to be,like, overperforming. Mhmm. And
that was a great lesson to belike, even the gold medal isn't
really enough.
It has to be the gold medal anda personal best or or a pool
(36:36):
record or you know? And you'relike, okay. Well, if that's my
standard, then it's gonna beincreasingly challenging for me
to ever have this experience asI keep raising the bar.
Eric Bomyea (36:47):
Even as that bar gets higher and higher and
higher, taking time to celebrateand finding joy because of the
handstand practice, right? Likeas you're teaching, you're an
exceptional teacher, so it'slike you are at that peak, your
bar is pretty high. And theneven the fact that during that
moment, you could find that joy,you could find that celebration
of like, Oh, I just got up therereal smooth like. I think even
(37:12):
as that bar, because it is agood practise in life to
continue to, for me, it's notabout chasing excellence, but it
is okay to encourage myself todo better, right? To
consistently improve.
There we go. It's not do better.It's consistently improve
(37:32):
towards something. And sometimesI take a step back and sometimes
I take a step forward. But aslong as I'm, like, moving
towards improving on somethingand that's my intention behind
it, like, can take those momentsto, like, celebrate progress.
Timothy Bish (37:44):
And also, I think we need to practice joy in what
we might call, like, theordinary, the mundane. So if we
go back to the yoga example, I'mnot entirely sure why, but I
really like triangle pose. Mhmm.It feels good in my body. It
comes sort of naturally to me.
It isn't a posture that I havemuch farther to go with regards
(38:07):
to, like, the limits of myflexibility, you know, and yet I
feel really good. And when I'mdeeply connected to my breath,
then, you know, it's a placewhere I can find joy. I don't
have to take triangle pose andtry to levitate in that pose,
(38:28):
you know, in order for me tofeel joyful in it. You know,
twenty years later of practice,and I still can find joy there.
And I think that's the otherside of this.
Do you have joy when you are,you know, driving in the car
with your kids? Do you have joywhen you are cooking, as you
mentioned? Do you have joy whenyou are gardening? Do you have
joy when you are reading? Do youhave joy when you are
(38:50):
meditating?
And chances are there arebreadcrumbs of joy for you
scattered. And the more you cannotice them, pay attention to
them, and feel them, the moreyou can cultivate having more of
them. Who doesn't want more joy?And every the good thing about
joy is that everyone benefits.So when I am authentically
(39:14):
joyful, I know the way I show upis impacted, and therefore my
interactions are impacted.
In the same way when I show uprageful, it has an impact,
right?
Eric Bomyea (39:25):
It sends out a different vibration.
Timothy Bish (39:26):
Yeah, that's right.
Eric Bomyea (39:27):
Yeah, one of the that, one of the breadcrumbs
that I've been noticing latelyis poetry. And not improv
poetry, so I am not gonna do iton the spot, but like reading
poetry, taking my time writingpoetry. I went to the library
today and I got a book ofchildren's poems from Shel
(39:50):
Silverstein. And I remember as akid loving them so, so much. And
I could sit there for hours andread them and lose complete
track of time.
And I go back to like, that's mysignal to myself. When nothing
else matters in this worldexcept for where I am, what I'm
doing, who I'm with, that's joy.And when I read Shel
(40:15):
Silverstein's books, nothingelse matters. My phone doesn't
matter. That email doesn'tmatter.
Nothing matters except for rightthere in that moment, and it's
joyful for me.
Timothy Bish (40:27):
Love that. I love that. Here at The Circle, we
talk about joy. This emotion inmy life, it is like a toy.
Sometimes when I play, it makesme so glad.
When I can't see it, I couldfeel bad, but I don't because
I'm joyful. Well, okay. Wait.Yeah. Yeah.
No. But We might we might editthat out. No. Mean, sure. But,
(40:50):
like, it
Eric Bomyea (40:50):
was also a very beautiful moment. This is a and
it was a beautiful expression ofyour authenticity coming out.
Timothy Bish (40:55):
I am I think I'm excellent at writing bad poetry.
Eric Bomyea (40:59):
Mhmm.
Timothy Bish (40:59):
I I do. I think it's like a skill that I have.
Like, so I it's not poetry that,you know, you would do a serious
reading of. Mhmm. But but I Ithink that I'm like maybe
they're limericks.
Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (41:11):
They've got they've got a they've got a little wink
wink to them. They've got alittle there's there's a camp
factor to them.
Timothy Bish (41:16):
But it's also my dance training. I like a little
bit of rhythm. I like a like a aa rhyme and rhythm to it. Yeah.
Yeah.
So for anyone anyone who knowsme who's listening to this,
you've probably heard some of mypoetry. I'm not gonna read it
now because I'm a professional.But, yeah, I I do like know? And
it does bring me joy. It doesbring me joy.
(41:36):
Here's what I will say. I wrotethat poem two Valentine's days
ago after talking to friends inthe locker room at the gym. We
were all getting ready to do ourworkout and talking about, you
know, did we want chocolates orflowers? Or, like, what you
know? And I'm like, I don'treally want any of that.
They're like, oh, but writing apoem. And so then I wrote a poem
(41:57):
for my friends with theintention of making them laugh.
And not only was it successful,it did make people laugh. It
also brought me an enormousamount of joy in the creating of
this thing. So I do think, like,a concept I wanna talk about is
how creation is can be so joyfuland so nourishing to the human
(42:18):
experience.
So creation does not necessarilyneed to be a poem or a song or a
piece of art. It can be anynumber of things, but it can be
creating community, you know,creating conversation, you know,
anything. Baking a soup. Yeah.Well, cooking for sure.
Absolutely. And and howimportant that is. So if you're
(42:41):
looking for joy, obviously,discussed having an embodied
experience of that can help you,but also start creating in
whatever in whatever way you doand see if you start to
Eric Bomyea (42:58):
find some joy there, looking for those
breadcrumbs. Ways to expressyourself to then unlock love and
expression in others. Ways toexpress yourself. So like if I
think about your poem, right?Like it was a deep connection
for yourself in a creativecreation moment brought you a
lot of joy.
And then in the delivery of it,you were able to also unlock joy
(43:22):
in others.
Timothy Bish (43:23):
Yes. And and then I received joy knowing that they
that this made them smile orlike brighten their day or,
Eric Bomyea (43:31):
you know Beautiful circle.
Timothy Bish (43:32):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
But remembering that looking forjoy and the experience of joy
doesn't necessarily need that.So that to me feels like a like
a beautiful extra. But there aremoments when we can cultivate
joy purely because of how theexperience is for us, like the
(43:53):
practice I mentioned. But, yeah,joy can compound. And then,
like, I do something joyful thatmakes you happy while your
happiness makes me happy and,you know, we're like a snowball
of joy.
Eric Bomyea (44:04):
Yeah. We're just, like, vibrating in this joyful
frequency.
Timothy Bish (44:07):
Rolling down the hill getting bigger and bigger
and bigger. Like, joy, joy, joy,joy, joy.
Eric Bomyea (44:10):
Two boys just experiencing their joy.
Timothy Bish (44:15):
I'm not gonna go any further.
Eric Bomyea (44:16):
I feel like I'm not the improv.
Timothy Bish (44:17):
The end I'm not the that poem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Laughter and and, you know, allthat.
(44:39):
But it is good for us Mhmm. Tobe joyful, to be happy, to be
glad, to be at ease. Yeah. Ithink this is why laughing
practices were so importantbecause it can also it can also
shift. So when I'm when I'mdown, I can use laughter or or
(44:59):
trying to practice joy in someway as a tool.
So have I told the Perma Smilestory yet on this podcast? I'm
going to. Okay. Mhmm. So I'mexcited to tell this story
because I made something up, orI thought I did, as a as a,
like, as a little queer boy onmy way to to musical theater
rehearsal.
And then it turned out that itwas, like, steeped in, like, you
(45:21):
know, ancient you know? So,anyway, I'm with my friends, all
of my theater friends from WestAllegheny High School in Western
Pennsylvania. We were on our waydowntown because we were doing a
community theater production ofJesus Christ Superstar. Mhmm. So
we felt like big deals because,you know, we were doing the high
school musical, which was alsoreally excellent.
But you're like, okay. Well,this is community theater, you
(45:42):
know, like the next step up.Anyway. And my high school had
an enormous amount of talent inin it. Now I I mentioned a lot
of people say that, but I Ireally mean it.
People who have gone on to beopera singers and, you know,
whatever. And anyway, so I'm inthe car with four, I think four
or five other people, all ofwhom are, like, very talented in
whatever way they're talented.And this one girl, Bianca, such
(46:07):
a beaut she was physicallybeautiful and had an incredible
voice and singing talent. Andshe was so cranky. Something had
happened.
She was legitimately, like, notfeeling happy. And I remember
saying, well, you have to perm asmile. And she's like she's
(46:27):
like, what's perm a smile? I'mlike, you have to put the
biggest smile on your face thatyou can, and you have to hold it
for a minute. And I'm justmaking this up.
But, like and so she put it likeshe's like, I don't wanna do
that. I'm like I'm like, gottado it. And, like and then, like,
she did, like, showed ithalfway. I'm like, no. No.
No. I'm like, you have to do,like, the biggest smile. So if
you're seeing me, like, a reallybig smile. You know? Now if you
(46:48):
and I were to do it, maybe weshould
Eric Bomyea (46:49):
do it. That's how we're gonna close today.
Timothy Bish (46:51):
No, we we have time actually. Shall I shall I
set a timer? Yeah. Let's do it.Okay.
Okay.
Eric Bomyea (46:55):
So so And for all of you listening, you're more
than welcome to join us as longas you're not driving.
Timothy Bish (46:59):
Or even if are driving. I think you can do this
when you're driving. It's just asmile. Okay. We're we're gonna
try okay.
Let's just let's just do for thepodcast. Let's do thirty
seconds. Okay. Thirty seconds ofPerma Smile and like this now
you and I are already a littlebit happy. Yeah.
Yeah. But like imagine if youwere like, I'm grumpy. You can
hit a bad day.
Eric Bomyea (47:14):
I can tap into it. I'm
Timothy Bish (47:15):
a grumpy pussy. Yeah. Now we're just gonna Perma
Smile. So three, two, one, andgo. Okay.
So it doesn't it doesn't itdoesn't usually happen it
doesn't usually happen this fastif you're cranky. It doesn't
(47:42):
usually happen. Okay. Okay.Well, that was twenty four we
go.
Here we go. That was twenty fourseconds. We got our point is
made. Now if we were cranky, itmight have taken a little while
longer. It might have taken alittle while longer.
But I've never watched a personwilling to do that practice that
doesn't ultimately end upgiggling or laughing by the end
of it. And who would have knownthat that that that I was
(48:07):
tapping in? Oh, I will say this.I then heard this teaching from
Dechen Thurman, an advancedcertified Jeeva Muthi yoga
teacher in, I forget, the earlyaughts, who said, oh, it is said
that the yoga teachings andpractices will emerge
spontaneously when needed. Andwhen I heard that teaching, I
remember I thought back to thatmoment where I thought, I don't
(48:29):
know where I got the idea toPerma Smile, but I was
essentially doing one of eitheryogic or Kabbalistic laughing
practice, and it worked.
Mhmm. So the takeaway from thisepisode is Perma Smile. And
maybe now that we're doing thisseries of little practices,
(48:49):
maybe we'll just do one where wejust Perma Smile.
Eric Bomyea (48:52):
Smile three coming at you soon. Listen.
Timothy Bish (48:57):
It works. It does. It works. Tell us a little bit
about your experience of PermaSmiling.
Eric Bomyea (49:02):
I'm continuously smiling. Can still feel, like I
just naturally want to get intoa smile.
Timothy Bish (49:10):
I see a smile on your
Eric Bomyea (49:10):
Yeah, like it's just there. After just smiling
for thirty seconds, I'm like nowI'm like can I ever remove this
smile from my face? Am I evergonna be grumpy again?
Timothy Bish (49:19):
Yeah. Well, if you when you when you are inevitably
grumpy again, perm a smile.
Eric Bomyea (49:24):
While also acknowledging that I'm grumpy. I
also don't to gaslight myselfout of my emotions.
Timothy Bish (49:28):
No, you get to experience what's So I think we
should we should sort ofconclude our episode today then
with a brief conversation of themoment we're in right now. We're
in a moment when there's not alot of great news, specifically
if you are a queer person, evenmore specifically if you are a
trans person or a trans personof color. Like, there are a lot
(49:51):
of headlines and legislation andthings that are occurring that
are not good. And as you rightlysaid, it isn't our job or even
very helpful to ignore theauthentic experience that we're
having. So we are allowed to bedisappointed, angry, any number
(50:12):
of things.
But we're gonna wanna channelthose emotions in a conscious
way in the direction of solutionand support, but we also need to
make sure that we don't get somired in the overwhelm and the
anger and the frustration thatit starts to have a
deteriorating effect to our ownwell-being, mental, physical,
(50:35):
spiritual, energetic, all ofthat. And so can we create
spaces where we can tap into joyeven when it feels like the
world is crumbling around us?What what what would you say
about the importance of joy inthis moment, political moment?
Eric Bomyea (50:53):
It can feel elusive, that it can feel
distant, can feel forced. Andthat's the invitation. Like even
in the darkness, can you shine alittle light? And even if that's
just like raising the corners ofyour mouth just a little bit to
see how it feels. And assomebody that's on
(51:15):
antidepressants right now, Iunderstand.
It can be a big ask to smile. Iget it.
Timothy Bish (51:23):
What is that quote? Ours is not to curse the
darkness but to be the light.Beautiful. That is an inaccurate
but famous quote from, I think,a former president. But I like
the idea of we there's a lot ofdarkness, and we're welcome to
scream at the darkness if wewant.
Eric Bomyea (51:43):
Absolutely.
Timothy Bish (51:44):
But the way we transform that is to become the
light in the darkness.
Eric Bomyea (51:49):
That's it.
Timothy Bish (51:49):
Yeah. And so practicing joy can help that.
And, like, the Perma Smileexample, which I definitely
recommend, will feel forced atfirst. I never smile that big.
It's not the way you know, it'snot you know?
And allowing ourselves that tooto be, like, just in the same
way that you go to the gym anddo things that you wouldn't
(52:10):
probably do in everyday life,like at the grocery store, you
start doing them at the gym.Same idea. We're gonna, like,
we're gonna emotionallypractice. We're gonna do this
thing. And then we're gonna takeour anger or whatever else, and
we're gonna direct it in aconscious way, and we're gonna
change the world one day at atime.
Eric Bomyea (52:28):
Fuck yeah. Yeah. Alright. Well, thank you for
being with me in thisconversation. I feel still just
a nice glow to my cheeks, and mycheeks are just, like, shining.
I just feel very joyful rightnow. So with that, I feel
complete. How do you feel?
Timothy Bish (52:43):
I also feel complete. I feel complete and
joyful.
Eric Bomyea (52:46):
Yeah. Will you take us out, please?
Timothy Bish (52:48):
I will. Let's close our eyes unless you're
driving. Take a deep inhalethrough the nose. Gentle exhale
through the mouth. And in thismoment, come with appreciation
and gratitude for the sacredspace, any insights or
awarenesses we may have gained.
And as we leave here now, I wisheveryone safety, community,
(53:09):
love, and with these words arecontainers open but not broken.
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Welcome back to The Circle. My name's Eric, and this
is Tim. Together, we exploremen's work, embodiment
practices, and personal growththrough our queer perspective.
If you haven't already, pleasebe sure to like, subscribe, and
leave us a review. Today, we'rediving into joy.
Why it's important, why it canbe elusive, and how men's work
can help open us up toexperience more of it. Tim, are
(00:26):
you ready to go all in?
Timothy Bish (00:27):
I am. Let's do this then. Let's do it.
Eric Bomyea (00:29):
So Tim, you and I have sat in a lot of circles
where we've seen men sit withgrief, anger, fear, but joy?
That seems a little bit moreelusive. So today we're gonna
dive into that and talk abouthow in men's work we often say
we're in these spaces to faceour shadows. But what about our
light? What role do you see joyplaying in a man's personal
growth?
Timothy Bish (00:49):
Well, I think that joy is an essential component
for finding our purpose andpassion in life. And joy is a
tricky thing because men havebeen historically allowed to
have certain kinds of emotions,which is why I think in these
(01:10):
spaces, we're doing a lot ofexploration of darkness, of
sadness, of grief, ofloneliness, because they have
been off the table. We're notsupposed to be impacted by those
or or we're only supposed to beimpacted by them in very
particular ways, and so we'vecompartmentalized them. So we
walk in kind of needing a fullexperience of them. Well, joy,
(01:36):
happiness, these sorts ofthings, we're allowed to have,
but we're supposed to have themin particular ways.
Right? And so, and I I just havethis feeling that a lot of
people are like, you have to bemindful of exactly how joyful
you are in the way in which youare joyful or happy or effulgent
(01:57):
because you wouldn't want it toseem gay. Right? So, like, how
can I be how can I still signalto you that I'm, like, super
masculine but enjoying thismoment? And so that I think joy
gets tricky because we probablytry to customize it in a
(02:17):
particular way, in a palatableway.
Like, I can be happy, but I haveto be happy and still be these
other things.
Eric Bomyea (02:24):
And so it's to have to look a certain way or be
expressed in a certain way orfor a certain duration of time.
Timothy Bish (02:30):
Right. So, you know, I think one of the images
I have is the, watching theSuper Bowl or any football game
really, And you're with yourbuddies and, like, the team does
something you want them to doand you're very happy. You get
that sort of big effulgent,like, yeah. You know? But it's
like, there's still, like, alevel of, like, intensity to
that.
And can we have other can we beaware of other kinds of joy? And
(02:56):
I feel like that's a thing thatwe need to work on. So can I
experience joy when it is alittle more subtle, when it is
softer, when it isn't the bigscream? Mhmm. And and only when
we can start to feel thatexperience and start to
recognize it regularly will westart to understand the things
(03:20):
about in our life that we'repassionate about or the and that
lead us to our purpose.
Because joy, the way that Idescribe it, are like little
breadcrumbs from Hansel andGretel. Right? And the more
times you notice thatexperience, chances are you're
on the right path. And if you'reon a path where you only get a
few breadcrumbs or nobreadcrumbs, that should
probably indicate something toyou. But how many of us are
(03:44):
walking down a path and we we'reso disconnected from the
experience of joy that we can'teven recognize if there are or
are not breadcrumbs on our path?
And so joy is, as I said, like aguidepost to passion and
purpose, but we need to be ableto experience it and recognize
that experience in order toutilize that guidepost.
Eric Bomyea (04:04):
Yeah. So what I'm hearing is it sounds like, joy
is more of an embodiedexperience than it is
necessarily an emotion. So,like, I'm just trying to
rationalize this for myself.Right? Like, joy and happiness
in my brain could be synonyms.
But what I'm hearing is that joyis more embodied, right? It's
more of that, like, how does itfeel in my body and the
recognition of it? How does thatfull rapture of energy feel. And
(04:30):
so can we unpack that a littlebit more and talk about how joy
might show up in the body?
Timothy Bish (04:35):
Yeah. I mean, I can talk to you about how I
think it shows up in my body.And I should say, just going
back, I did a little research,and so there is a distinction
between joy and happiness, butthere's a lot of disagreement
about precisely what thatdistinction is. But I do think
you're right that joy is anexperience that we can have an
embodied experience of, and thatembodied experience can be
(04:56):
really informative. For me, joyhas a lightness to it.
Joy has an ease. It is a steady,calm, easiness to it. It isn't
exactly excitement, althoughexcitement can be so the thing
(05:18):
about, you know, emotions withthese experiences is they can
be, like, crossover. So I can bejoyful and excited. I can, you
know, joyful and a lot ofthings.
Joyful and, you know, quietlycontent or Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (05:27):
We can do two things at once. Yeah.
Timothy Bish (05:28):
But so so the feeling of joy for me feels like
it's lightness and ease,whereas, like, anxiety feels
like tension and holding oranger feels like heat. You know?
But I imagine, you know, forevery person listening to this,
there might be a slightlydifferent experience of joy, you
know, depending on who they are,how they are, their
(05:50):
constitution, and theirupbringing, and, you know, their
experiences.
Eric Bomyea (05:52):
Yeah. Because my experience of joy is more of
like a full body radiance. Idon't feel it in any one
particular place. It's like myentire body is just like fully
online.
Timothy Bish (06:01):
Well, you talked about this last night in the
circle because I told you thatego eradicator, an embodiment
practice for those of you whoare new to this. It's a it's a
an embodiment practice. It'ssometimes also referred to as
radiance charger, which is likein the Kundalini yoga tradition,
and it's a more trauma informedway of of discussing it, And you
(06:24):
really like that. So when yousaid you were feeling your
radiance, can you try to goinward and talk about that from
the felt sense perspective? Whatdoes that mean to you?
Eric Bomyea (06:34):
The radiance of joy to me was this full body
experience where it just lit meup, lit up every inch of my body
inside and out. There wasn't asingle place of darkness. It was
just like a full body and itreally brought me into the
moment. And as I studied my ownreaction and my own experience
(06:58):
of joy, I really started tounderstand that for me, joy is
when I'm fully present, wherethere is nothing else that
matters in this life except forright here, right now. So if
it's doing something withsomebody or by myself or in a
group, if if the rest of theworld melts away, I'm in a state
(07:22):
of joy.
Timothy Bish (07:22):
Well, I'm really glad that you said that because
I was, as you know, relisteningor rereading the Velvet Rage,
and he mentions this, we cannotrecognize our joy if we're not
present. So this idea that joyis an experience that's
happening in the present, and ifwe are not present because we
(07:43):
are thinking you know,forecasting into the future or
ruminating about the past, itmight become invisible to us.
And so why is embodiment such animportant practice for men,
especially if they're lookingfor joy in in the pursuit of
their purpose and passion?Although, to be clear, joy like,
(08:03):
looking for joy is a a validpursuit in and of itself. We're
not gonna be able to do that ifwe don't know how to be present.
And embodiment helps us to
Eric Bomyea (08:12):
be present. Practice being present. And it
is. It's something that, like, Ifound really interesting is
that, like like, I can practiceat joy, just like I can practice
with my edges of sadness, anger,grief, and frustrations, right?
I hadn't really considered how Icould incorporate embodiment
(08:34):
practices in a cultivation ofthat.
Like I said earlier, I thinkthat I've really come to learn
or see men's work as a way toexplore my shadow, and now
starting to see it as a way toreally also dive into my light.
Timothy Bish (08:49):
Right. And that I hope is a big takeaway from the
last two circles here inProvincetown, this idea that joy
is a thing that we can practice.And as I mentioned in the
circles, the yogis knew this fora long time. And so in the Yoga
Sutras, there are very fewmentions of the practice of
asana, asana meaning seat orconnection to the earth, but
frequently, associated solelywith the practices of physical
(09:14):
postures and and shapes of thebody. There are very little
mentions of it because yoga isso gigantic, but this one
mention, the connection to theearth should be steady and
joyful.
And it's an indication that wearen't doing them so this is the
(09:34):
thing about joy. We're like, wecan't walk around the world sort
of hoping joy hits us. We havewe we can instead practice
working with joy, and that'swhat the yogis do. So when I'm
doing my asana practice, yes, Ican be very serious and
spiritual. Lots of people kindof go to that place.
(09:55):
You could also practice beingjoy being joyful. Can you make
this posture a joyful posture?Can you bring joy into a posture
that is otherwise reallychallenging, in the same way
that we would do withsteadiness? So I'm in a
balancing posture, and I'mstruggling to keep my balance,
and I'm, like, practicing withsteadiness. Can I do it?
(10:15):
And then but the thing is, it'slike, but if I fall out of my
tree pose this is why I say inmy yoga classes, if you fall out
of a pose, you've got a smile.
Eric Bomyea (10:22):
I smile a lot, y'all.
Timothy Bish (10:24):
If I fall out of tree pose where I was practicing
steadiness, can I now practicejoy? In the same way that I
would practice joy if I foundthat tree pose and was like, oh,
we've all had that moment.
Eric Bomyea (10:35):
Nailed it.
Timothy Bish (10:35):
Oh, I'm nailing this. I'm like, this is
impressive. I feel incredible.Yeah. And I've done that, like I
Eric Bomyea (10:41):
didn't know my body could move like that or, like,
hold this position. Like, I'mnow celebrating myself. And,
yeah, the
Timothy Bish (10:46):
the I mean, remember one time I was
demonstrating a handstand atJiva Mukti Yoga, because it was,
like, the peak pose for youknow? And I popped up and for
and, like, this has almost neverhappened to me, but I'm like, I
popped right into this balance.I'm like, oh, I could hang out
here for 10 or fifteen breaths.I don't know how I did it. Of
course, I was teaching, so I didnot have that luxury.
(11:07):
Like, I had to come down. But Ihad a moment of like, oh, that
was really fun and joyful. Mhmm.Now can I practice joy when I
don't have that experience? Ihope so because that's the
experience I'm almost alwayshaving.
Handstands are tricky for me.
Eric Bomyea (11:21):
Yeah. I've never been able to do one except for
on a wall. So
Timothy Bish (11:24):
Well, every time you practice, you know, you're
practicing steadiness. And thenwhen you fall out of it, if you
smile, you're practicing joy.Yeah, love it. One of the things
I
Eric Bomyea (11:33):
when you were starting that, you said, like,
you know, if we just go throughlife expecting joy to, like, hit
us in the face, it made methink, like, yeah, like, this
external search for joy I don'tknow is how I'm going to
recognize it. I'm going torecognize joy internally. And so
that to me starts to say, theworld can't tell me how to
(11:55):
experience joy. But if I listento myself, I can find what might
be bringing me joy. And thatmakes me think of authenticity.
And I want to
Timothy Bish (12:04):
Well, before we get there, because you just
brought it up so beautifully, itfeels like you're making the
distinction between joy andvalidation.
Eric Bomyea (12:11):
And,
Timothy Bish (12:12):
yeah, again, in the book, The Velvet Rage that I
already referenced, there is thedistinction is made that joy is
an intrinsic experience comingfrom the inside out, And
validation is obviously comingfrom the outside in. Oh, I think
you look really good. I thinkyou did that really well. And
the tricky thing is, like mostthings, they can coexist. So
(12:33):
someone could validate you for athing that you feel really good
about, and now you're having,like, a dual experience.
Right? But we should be reallyclear about, well, the true joy
that we are looking for,especially if we're looking to,
like, find our passions and isgonna come from within. It
cannot be dependent on anoutside source because and I'd
(12:54):
like for us all to think aboutthis for a minute. How many
times have you done somethingreally well or you've looked
great or, you know, whatever thething is, and you don't get
validation for any number ofreasons. A lot, I would have to
imagine.
And it doesn't mean you didn'tdo it well or that you don't
(13:16):
look great. If we are dependenton someone noticing and then and
then choosing to tell us, whichcan have so many factors, many
of which have nothing to do withus, then we are setting
ourselves up for disappointment.Like, oh, that person really
recognized how great I was, butthey were in a hurry. So they
(13:37):
didn't say anything to me. If Ineed them to say something to me
and they didn't, oh, I'mterrible.
Mhmm. In reality, you're like,no. You did that great, And it's
all about this going in. So if Ican be satisfied with, I feel
really good about having donethat well, great.
Eric Bomyea (13:55):
And then anything else is icing, extra. Because
the joy can carry you through.If it's connected to joy, if the
thing that you accomplished orthe outfit that you put on or
however it is that you aremoving through the world,
expressing yourself, connectingto your authenticity, if it is
(14:15):
authentic to you, yeah, youdon't need that validation. I
don't need that validation.Sometimes I crave it.
There's no doubt about that. Butthat also is a study and a
practice for me to be like, oh,then that thing that I did,
right, wasn't really the thingthat was bringing me joy? Or
maybe I was doing it for someother alternative reason or
(14:35):
purpose.
Timothy Bish (14:36):
Well, and we are social beings, so we are allowed
to want to understand how wecoexist with other beings,
especially if they matter to us.But right, I'm thinking now of
an example, I think it wasyesterday, where I was going
about my day. I think it waskinda busy, and I wanted to do a
(14:58):
practice. I wanted to do apractice because I know I knew I
would feel better if I did it.And so I did one.
It was like a thirty minuteKundalini yoga practice, and and
I did it because of how thefeeling I cultivated within me
from the inside out. Until thismoment, or maybe I mentioned it
(15:19):
to you, I don't remember, butuntil this moment, like most of
the world did not know why I wasdoing it, and so there was no
one who was gonna be like, youdid a really great job or you're
so disciplined or any of that.It was I'm doing it because I
know how I will feel when I'mdone, and that feeling is worth
doing the thing. Connecting tothat, I think, is really
powerful. If it if it requiredsomeone else to pat me on the
(15:41):
back, then I never would havedone it because no one was gonna
come and sit in my living roomand watch me for thirty minutes.
Although, I would argue
Eric Bomyea (15:49):
I mean, some
Timothy Bish (15:49):
people did a really good job. No. No. I'm I'm
I'm kidding. And I'm hearingthat, like,
Eric Bomyea (15:56):
you tapped into something. You were able to,
like, listen to yourself andsay, what am I wanting in the
moment? What am I needing in themoment? And then being able to
recognize like, oh, I want to doa practice and I want to do this
specific practice. Coming out ofthat at the end of it and
recognizing that it brought joyis what it sounded like, or it
brought some sort ofcontentment, fulfillment, that
(16:19):
it was connected to your truth.
Right?
Timothy Bish (16:22):
And the intrinsic experience. Can I start to look
inward and notice Before I startto look outward, can I look
inward? How do I feel? How do Ifeel when I do this? And I think
we should all make that themeasure.
How do I feel when I do thisactivity or that activity? And
if the answer is more often thannot you don't feel good, I think
(16:44):
it's time to contemplate thedoing of that thing.
Eric Bomyea (16:49):
I want to go back to how we can have some of us
have had experiences where ourjoy has been policed, right? Or
our expressions of joy have beenridiculed or shamed in some sort
of way. So, I think aboutcertain expressions of joy.
Laughing joyfully, dancingjoyfully, singing joyfully, like
(17:16):
some different expressions ofjoy that to some are really
comfortable to do by themselves.Like, if somebody's got music
on, like I tend to do this alot.
Like if I'm by myself and I havemusic on, like I'll sing and
I'll dance and I'll like do allthat stuff and I like feel
present. I'm in the moment, I'mfeeling joy. But then I catch
(17:37):
myself, I'm like, what ifsomebody's at the door? What if
somebody's outside? What ifsomebody's looking in?
Right? And I start to get reallyself conscious. And so I wanna
talk about that a little bit,about how self consciousness can
prevent us from fully expressingand feeling our joy.
Timothy Bish (17:52):
I think any previous experience we had where
we were told that we're notdoing it quite the right way, it
should look a different way,we'll carry them with us until
we work through that. But, yeah,I suspect a lot of people are
managing their experience of joyso that it is palatable and
(18:17):
appropriate. I remember onetime, I was actually dancing in
a touring show, but I was in thestudio by myself and I was doing
like was just, like, boppingaround. I wasn't, like, dancing,
dancing, bopping around. And mypartner, she walked in and and
saw me, and I turned around andI was like, oh, hey.
And I think her expectation wasthat I should be embarrassed,
(18:38):
that I just got caught, like,dancing. But I wasn't, and I
understand why some people mightbe. So I think we have to start
to recognize, you know, men'swork in this podcast, all the
stuff we're doing, it's reallyhuman work. And we need to have
a conversation aroundnormalizing the entirety of the
(19:02):
human experience. So we'vetalked about this already.
Like, emotions are a humanexperience, not a feminine
experience, and then only someemotions are masculine. We've
talked about that. So what isthe the range? Like, what is the
the maximum total emotions thatwe are that are available to us?
And chances are we are allcapable of experiencing them to
(19:25):
to greater or lesser degrees.
So why would anyone beembarrassed or or feel compelled
to hide their joy, theirjubilance, their exuberation,
whatever. Is it exuberate?Exuberance. Exuberance. Thank
you.
Exuberation. Yeah. I just I justmade up a word, everyone, and I
and I feel joy about that.
Eric Bomyea (19:46):
Numerous coming next week.
Timothy Bish (19:47):
But there's a lot of cultural parts that are
stepping in to say, but itshould still seem broody. It
should still seem mysterious. Itshould still seem really
masculine. It should seem that'stoo much. I mean, if I think
about when I first heard about
Eric Bomyea (20:03):
There were times that I've been told you're too
much.
Timothy Bish (20:04):
Totally. Well, when I think about my first
introduction to pride parades,like long before I had ever been
to one or or even understoodwhat that was, I remember the
talk was about how everyone istoo much. It's too big. It's too
loud. It's too colorful.
It's too you know? And then fillin the blank. And why? Why are
(20:29):
we afraid of Joy. Bigexpressions of happiness?
Why do they have to look aparticular way? Why can't I
scream at the at the Super Bowlwhen my team gets a touchdown,
but I can't be equally happy ina different situation or
context. And I think like theemphasis on this resilience and
(20:49):
grit and I like start to thinklike how can we reframe joy Just
like we've reframedvulnerability as a strength.
Eric Bomyea (20:58):
How can we reframe joy also as a strength? And
nurturing that, that we're notjust in practice in a chi
generator to you know, hold adisciplined pose and be like,
oh, I'm super serious right now.Like, how can we also say like,
(21:19):
yeah, that is a certain type ofstrength, also strengthen
expressing myself and beingjoyful?
Timothy Bish (21:26):
Yeah. I think we have to I think we have to give
ourselves the permission to playwith it. I can't tell you how
many times I've been in men'scircles and one of two or the
only queer gay person in theroom, and I I get to the moment
when we're gonna do, like, eyegazing chi generator. And, you
know, the man in front of mewants to, like, snarl and growl
(21:48):
and, you know, which is, by theway, totally welcome, totally
valid, and also available to me.And I'm just not in that place,
and I start smiling at him.
And it's like, right. I can Ican I can engage the same thing
(22:09):
differently? They're both fine.And good thing about these men's
workspaces and spaces whereconscious people are doing
conscious work is it isaccepted. But there are still
moments where I'll see a flashof, oh, you thought I was gonna
meet you with an intensity ofone kind, and I'm meeting you
(22:29):
with a different kind.
Mhmm. So I think I think that wewe do it by playing with it, by
talking about it, and by keepcontinue to bring it. I mean,
you know, you at the at theretreat, you and your partner,
Mikey, your practice you wereoffering was one I had never
(22:51):
seen before, and it wasunapologetically, like, joy,
community base. And and I thinkthat is an example of, yeah, we
can get really primal. We cantalk about the warrior.
We can talk about the magicianand the king. Can we talk about
(23:12):
the lover in all of his forms?Or does it only have to be,
like, the lover when we are,like, ravishing our woman,
which, you know, is, like, thetalk often? Is that the only way
we can talk about the lover? Iwould argue no.
There's probably lots of ways wecan talk about the lover and the
power of the lover. There is areason that there are four
masculine primary archetypes andthe lover is one of them.
Eric Bomyea (23:36):
Speaking of retreat, like one of the things
that I recall, and I think thisgoes back to that balance of
validation and joy and how itcan be a tricky balance. So
often in these spaces, manystraight men, Men outside of the
queer community are not used toreceiving compliments. That's
(23:58):
right. Right? So one of thethings that I was doing on
retreat was I just started goingup to men and I was like, it's
effusive compliment day andyou're very handsome and you
have a great body.
And, like, I was, like,showering them with love and
praise and affection, but notin, like, a sexualized way.
(24:20):
Like, it was not sexualized atall, and they did not receive it
that way either. They were justso lit up. Were like they were
like, woah. Like, I've justreceived a compliment from
somebody that I love and trustand, like, it feels good.
And, like, they lit up. And Iwas like, yeah. Like, you can
spread joy pretty easily bythat, like, just reminding
people, you know, that veryhandsome and they have a great
body.
Timothy Bish (24:39):
Yeah. For the record, I was at that retreat
and did not receive one of thosecompliments.
Eric Bomyea (24:43):
You received it several times.
Timothy Bish (24:44):
Did I? Yeah. Okay. I was I was also I was also
really busy.
Eric Bomyea (24:48):
Because the joke ended up being like, oh, I
thought that was just for me.
Timothy Bish (24:51):
Oh, okay. Okay. That's right. Oh, that's right.
Okay.
So people really I'll own that.I'll own that. But it's
different. It's differentbetween the two of us.
Eric Bomyea (24:57):
Yeah. People really leaned into it though. And it
really was an expression of oflove. It was my expression of
the lover in a way, and it wasreceived in a way that people
could, like, activate and theycould feel joy from something
like that.
Timothy Bish (25:11):
Let's talk about that for a second because and
I'm I already have a a theory ofmy own, but I want you to just
think about all of the loveyou've ever experienced in your
lifetime. And then think abouthow much of that love was
romantic sexual love. And whenwe think of it, that I'm gonna
(25:34):
have to assume less than 50%.Right? Because we've loved our
families and our friends and ourteachers and, you know, our
communities and different we'veloved geographic locations, and
we've loved experiences.
You know? And so the idea thatwe're going to talk about this
experience as if it can only bethis one thing for it to be,
(25:58):
like, acceptable? Like, a mancan only experience, like, the
lover archetype or love whenhe's ravishing his woman. Like
or, like, occasionally when he'scaring for his children. Like,
well, what about his buddy Yeah.
That he would go to the ends ofthe earth for? Can can they tell
each other they love each other?Can we take this stigma away of,
(26:18):
oh, maybe that means that thisabout you or that about you
because we're so afraid of that?And instead, no. I'm a human
being capable of loving.
Love is good for everyone. Let'sdo more of that.
Eric Bomyea (26:33):
In in all of the ways.
Timothy Bish (26:36):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So joy. Mhmm.
Joy is a way to connect to ourpurpose. It's a way to connect
with other people. It's a way toshow a piece of ourselves that
is as important and as valid asall the other stuff we have to
do. We still have to work on ourshadows and figure out where our
triggers and our edges are. Westill have to, you know, be
(26:58):
honest with ourselves about ourshortcomings or our weaknesses
and and think about ways to, youknow, fortify all aspects of
ourselves.
But chances are we're not goingto
Eric Bomyea (27:08):
be very successful if we don't ever allow ourselves
the experience of joy. So forthose that are a little
uncomfortable with expressionsof joy, I think of I want to ask
you what practices, but I alsowant to give a spoiler, right?
Because last night Tim led theembodiment circle and we were
doing a big physical exercise.And then when we went into
(27:34):
stillness, Tim invited us intoany expression that was wanting
to come. And he had on a reallygreat song that was a fun beat.
And the invitation silently waslike, if you want to dance,
dance. And it was after a bigmovement practice where it's
hard to, for me anyway, it'shard to just come to full
(27:56):
stillness. And so that practicewas a way, from my perspective,
to help men who may be a littleuncomfortable with expressions
of joy, like dance, to kind ofbridge that gap. So I want to
just pass it over to you now andother ways that men, if they are
feeling uncomfortable with anysort of expression, how they can
(28:18):
maybe take some baby steps.
Timothy Bish (28:20):
Well, okay. Baby steps. I'm gonna I'm gonna say
the opposite of a baby step,which is sometimes you have to
give your like that fake it tillyou make it, you have to give
yourself permission to be reallybig. So, you know, in acting and
in and in theater, it'll oftensay, you know, it's better to be
bigger and have the directorpull you back than for you to be
(28:40):
too small and then have to,like, pull it out of you pull it
out of you. And so I hadmentioned, I forget when, in one
of the circles that there aremany joy and laughter practices
built into a lot of differenttraditions.
And it it just demonstrates thenecessity for sometimes like,
oh, we all need permission topractice this, and we can come
(29:05):
into a very exaggerated form ofit. Because in so doing, then I
start to get a sense of, like,where the edges of this
experience are for me and whereI tend to gravitate most
naturally. So I would say that'san important thing. But if we're
(29:26):
doing baby steps, one thing Iwould say is, you know, create a
playlist of songs that make youfeel, like, lighthearted, that
uplift you, that bring youcloser to that experience so
that you know, oh, hey. I canalways turn to this resource and
(29:46):
begin to shift my mood.
I would say if you can, journalwhen you notice. And journaling
doesn't have to be, like, longhand in in a piece of paper. It
can be, like, a note. It can bea voice memo. You know, what you
know, modern world, do whatworks for you.
Yeah. If you have a person thatyou really trust and you start
(30:08):
to share that, to be like, hey,I just wanna mention earlier
when we were doing this thing,felt a lot of joy. Because I
think really just shining thelight of your awareness or
attention on the experience ofit will clue you into it and
looking for more of it. Sothat's where I would say start.
Eric Bomyea (30:29):
I think like something that I've struggled
with is recognizing the thingsthat I can do by and for myself
that can light me up and radiateme versus the things that I do
for others. Because I'm acaregiver. I like to give a lot
of love. I like to share where Ican. I like to share my wealth.
(30:52):
I like to share my space. I loveto share my food. Whatever it is
that I have, I wanna be able togive to others. But that lights
me up and that brings me a lotof joy, that is reliant on the
other. And it's not that I everLike I have people over for soup
on Tuesday nights and like, Idon't need a compliment, right,
for the soup that I'm serving.
Yeah, it feels good. But like myjoy wasn't like preparing the
(31:16):
soup and getting it ready andthen ladling it out for people
and then, like, serving it.Like, that brings me joy.
Whether you like it or not, Idon't care.
Timothy Bish (31:25):
Well, you care a little bit. I care a little bit.
But but but, like, all the soupshave been so yummy. But I would
invite you because you talkedabout this now in the last two
circles. Maybe if you're open toan invitation are you open to an
invitation?
I am. Perhaps, you know, in theshort blessing that you say
before we all eat your delicioussoup, last night was cream of
mushroom Mhmm. And it was reallyyummy. Invite us into your
(31:51):
experience of joy. As a modelingthat like, I I derived much joy
from the process of creatingthis, and then that maybe
creates a space for other men tobe like, oh, okay.
Well, what even if they ask thequestion, well, where do I
derive joy? Or just noticingsomeone else claiming that
(32:12):
experience and and the benefitthere. So that's an invitation.
You can take it or not, but Ifeel like I feel like it would
welcome us all into, well, whereis my joy?
Eric Bomyea (32:23):
Yeah, because the reoccurring theme to men that
come over is the almost guiltthat they feel from coming over
empty handed. Because we do thisright after circle where they
may not have had the opportunityto like go out and like get
something to bring to the table.And there's this societal
expectation that you can't showup empty handed. And like, I'm
insistent. I'm like, I don'twant you to bring anything
(32:45):
because doing this brings me somuch joy.
And I almost want to say like,don't rob me of my joy.
Timothy Bish (32:50):
Well, I think you did say that last night. Made
that joke. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (32:53):
So it's like, there's that and there's also
like this aspect of like, youare enough. Like, just bringing
yourself is enough becausehaving you in my space brings me
also joy.
Timothy Bish (33:06):
Well, how many times in your life have some has
someone said that to you?Exactly. Yeah. And I bring I
bring it up for that reason.Like, for a long time, I even
when I even when I didexceptional things, it was never
enough.
And so settling into theexperience of, oh, I am enough,
(33:28):
and my fullness is wanted herewithout adornment, I think
that's a really intense practicefor a lot of people, I think
especially queer people. I willshare a story. I remember I was
doing a summer swim leagueoutside of Pittsburgh, which is
where I grew up. I lovePittsburgh. Go Pittsburgh.
Eric Bomyea (33:48):
Mhmm.
Timothy Bish (33:48):
And it was the final meet, and I was racing for
I was in a few final events, butthe one I wanted the most was
the 50 yard freestyle. I wouldlike it was like the glamour
event, and I wanted to win it.And I was so nervous, and I did
not feel like I had the supportand you know? Anyway, I ended up
(34:09):
winning the gold medal, butgetting a terrible time. Like,
relatively speaking, it was nota good time.
I I had a bad race, ultimately,but but I still won. I remember
I was happy that I won, but thenI went after we did the awards
ceremony, I went to a familygathering, spoke to my uncle,
and I was like, oh, you know, Iwon the gold medal. And he's
(34:30):
like, well, what was your time?And I told him what the time
was. He's like, ugh.
Well, he's like, you know,that's good, I guess, but, like,
you know, that time isn't and Ithink a lot of people have had
that experience of it couldn'tjust be there was always this
other thing. Right? And so if welive in a world where even when
something great happens, likearguably winning a gold medal
(34:52):
even though, you know, age group12, you know, whatever, but
winning a gold medal, that stillwasn't enough. So later in life,
when I show up at your at yoursoup with no bread or sparkling
water or whatever, you know, I'mgonna have to practice allowing
myself to be enough just as Iam. And so I think that's why
(35:14):
community here is so important,why satsang is so important.
We can remind each other, whichI think you are doing well. We
can remind each other, you'reenough. You're enough. You're
enough. And then when you havedinner, you can remind me that
I'm enough.
And when you know, like, well,that I think is built into the
men's work space is, oh,community that will remind you,
Eric Bomyea (35:35):
hopefully. Well, the 12 year old Tim, you did
great. You got the medal. Thankyou.
Timothy Bish (35:42):
Fair enough. My uncle wasn't wrong. My time was
bad. I do you know what
Eric Bomyea (35:47):
I But you were still joyful and happy having
accomplished something.
Timothy Bish (35:52):
Yeah. You know what? I really wish someone had
talked about, like, well, whywere you so nervous? And and,
like, and, like, addressed myanxiety. I'm, oh, because I
don't feel safe or protected.
Mhmm. And I feel like if I don'tdo incredible things, no one's
gonna love me. That would havebeen I mean, not that we we
don't we wanna stick with joyhere, but like, I'm like, oh,
yeah. So We can hold two thingsat once. We can hold two things
(36:14):
at once.
That that would have been a morepowerful Yeah. Oh, I'm I'm
terrified because no one herehas made me feel like I'm
enough. I always have to be,like, overperforming. Mhmm. And
that was a great lesson to belike, even the gold medal isn't
really enough.
It has to be the gold medal anda personal best or or a pool
(36:36):
record or you know? And you'relike, okay. Well, if that's my
standard, then it's gonna beincreasingly challenging for me
to ever have this experience asI keep raising the bar.
Eric Bomyea (36:47):
Even as that bar gets higher and higher and
higher, taking time to celebrateand finding joy because of the
handstand practice, right? Likeas you're teaching, you're an
exceptional teacher, so it'slike you are at that peak, your
bar is pretty high. And theneven the fact that during that
moment, you could find that joy,you could find that celebration
of like, Oh, I just got up therereal smooth like. I think even
(37:12):
as that bar, because it is agood practise in life to
continue to, for me, it's notabout chasing excellence, but it
is okay to encourage myself todo better, right? To
consistently improve.
There we go. It's not do better.It's consistently improve
(37:32):
towards something. And sometimesI take a step back and sometimes
I take a step forward. But aslong as I'm, like, moving
towards improving on somethingand that's my intention behind
it, like, can take those momentsto, like, celebrate progress.
Timothy Bish (37:44):
And also, I think we need to practice joy in what
we might call, like, theordinary, the mundane. So if we
go back to the yoga example, I'mnot entirely sure why, but I
really like triangle pose. Mhmm.It feels good in my body. It
comes sort of naturally to me.
It isn't a posture that I havemuch farther to go with regards
(38:07):
to, like, the limits of myflexibility, you know, and yet I
feel really good. And when I'mdeeply connected to my breath,
then, you know, it's a placewhere I can find joy. I don't
have to take triangle pose andtry to levitate in that pose,
(38:28):
you know, in order for me tofeel joyful in it. You know,
twenty years later of practice,and I still can find joy there.
And I think that's the otherside of this.
Do you have joy when you are,you know, driving in the car
with your kids? Do you have joywhen you are cooking, as you
mentioned? Do you have joy whenyou are gardening? Do you have
joy when you are reading? Do youhave joy when you are
(38:50):
meditating?
And chances are there arebreadcrumbs of joy for you
scattered. And the more you cannotice them, pay attention to
them, and feel them, the moreyou can cultivate having more of
them. Who doesn't want more joy?And every the good thing about
joy is that everyone benefits.So when I am authentically
(39:14):
joyful, I know the way I show upis impacted, and therefore my
interactions are impacted.
In the same way when I show uprageful, it has an impact,
right?
Eric Bomyea (39:25):
It sends out a different vibration.
Timothy Bish (39:26):
Yeah, that's right.
Eric Bomyea (39:27):
Yeah, one of the that, one of the breadcrumbs
that I've been noticing latelyis poetry. And not improv
poetry, so I am not gonna do iton the spot, but like reading
poetry, taking my time writingpoetry. I went to the library
today and I got a book ofchildren's poems from Shel
(39:50):
Silverstein. And I remember as akid loving them so, so much. And
I could sit there for hours andread them and lose complete
track of time.
And I go back to like, that's mysignal to myself. When nothing
else matters in this worldexcept for where I am, what I'm
doing, who I'm with, that's joy.And when I read Shel
(40:15):
Silverstein's books, nothingelse matters. My phone doesn't
matter. That email doesn'tmatter.
Nothing matters except for rightthere in that moment, and it's
joyful for me.
Timothy Bish (40:27):
Love that. I love that. Here at The Circle, we
talk about joy. This emotion inmy life, it is like a toy.
Sometimes when I play, it makesme so glad.
When I can't see it, I couldfeel bad, but I don't because
I'm joyful. Well, okay. Wait.Yeah. Yeah.
No. But We might we might editthat out. No. Mean, sure. But,
(40:50):
like, it
Eric Bomyea (40:50):
was also a very beautiful moment. This is a and
it was a beautiful expression ofyour authenticity coming out.
Timothy Bish (40:55):
I am I think I'm excellent at writing bad poetry.
Eric Bomyea (40:59):
Mhmm.
Timothy Bish (40:59):
I I do. I think it's like a skill that I have.
Like, so I it's not poetry that,you know, you would do a serious
reading of. Mhmm. But but I Ithink that I'm like maybe
they're limericks.
Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (41:11):
They've got they've got a they've got a little wink
wink to them. They've got alittle there's there's a camp
factor to them.
Timothy Bish (41:16):
But it's also my dance training. I like a little
bit of rhythm. I like a like a aa rhyme and rhythm to it. Yeah.
Yeah.
So for anyone anyone who knowsme who's listening to this,
you've probably heard some of mypoetry. I'm not gonna read it
now because I'm a professional.But, yeah, I I do like know? And
it does bring me joy. It doesbring me joy.
(41:36):
Here's what I will say. I wrotethat poem two Valentine's days
ago after talking to friends inthe locker room at the gym. We
were all getting ready to do ourworkout and talking about, you
know, did we want chocolates orflowers? Or, like, what you
know? And I'm like, I don'treally want any of that.
They're like, oh, but writing apoem. And so then I wrote a poem
(41:57):
for my friends with theintention of making them laugh.
And not only was it successful,it did make people laugh. It
also brought me an enormousamount of joy in the creating of
this thing. So I do think, like,a concept I wanna talk about is
how creation is can be so joyfuland so nourishing to the human
(42:18):
experience.
So creation does not necessarilyneed to be a poem or a song or a
piece of art. It can be anynumber of things, but it can be
creating community, you know,creating conversation, you know,
anything. Baking a soup. Yeah.Well, cooking for sure.
Absolutely. And and howimportant that is. So if you're
(42:41):
looking for joy, obviously,discussed having an embodied
experience of that can help you,but also start creating in
whatever in whatever way you doand see if you start to
Eric Bomyea (42:58):
find some joy there, looking for those
breadcrumbs. Ways to expressyourself to then unlock love and
expression in others. Ways toexpress yourself. So like if I
think about your poem, right?Like it was a deep connection
for yourself in a creativecreation moment brought you a
lot of joy.
And then in the delivery of it,you were able to also unlock joy
(43:22):
in others.
Timothy Bish (43:23):
Yes. And and then I received joy knowing that they
that this made them smile orlike brighten their day or,
Eric Bomyea (43:31):
you know Beautiful circle.
Timothy Bish (43:32):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
But remembering that looking forjoy and the experience of joy
doesn't necessarily need that.So that to me feels like a like
a beautiful extra. But there aremoments when we can cultivate
joy purely because of how theexperience is for us, like the
(43:53):
practice I mentioned. But, yeah,joy can compound. And then,
like, I do something joyful thatmakes you happy while your
happiness makes me happy and,you know, we're like a snowball
of joy.
Eric Bomyea (44:04):
Yeah. We're just, like, vibrating in this joyful
frequency.
Timothy Bish (44:07):
Rolling down the hill getting bigger and bigger
and bigger. Like, joy, joy, joy,joy, joy.
Eric Bomyea (44:10):
Two boys just experiencing their joy.
Timothy Bish (44:15):
I'm not gonna go any further.
Eric Bomyea (44:16):
I feel like I'm not the improv.
Timothy Bish (44:17):
The end I'm not the that poem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Laughter and and, you know, allthat.
(44:39):
But it is good for us Mhmm. Tobe joyful, to be happy, to be
glad, to be at ease. Yeah. Ithink this is why laughing
practices were so importantbecause it can also it can also
shift. So when I'm when I'mdown, I can use laughter or or
(44:59):
trying to practice joy in someway as a tool.
So have I told the Perma Smilestory yet on this podcast? I'm
going to. Okay. Mhmm. So I'mexcited to tell this story
because I made something up, orI thought I did, as a as a,
like, as a little queer boy onmy way to to musical theater
rehearsal.
And then it turned out that itwas, like, steeped in, like, you
(45:21):
know, ancient you know? So,anyway, I'm with my friends, all
of my theater friends from WestAllegheny High School in Western
Pennsylvania. We were on our waydowntown because we were doing a
community theater production ofJesus Christ Superstar. Mhmm. So
we felt like big deals because,you know, we were doing the high
school musical, which was alsoreally excellent.
But you're like, okay. Well,this is community theater, you
(45:42):
know, like the next step up.Anyway. And my high school had
an enormous amount of talent inin it. Now I I mentioned a lot
of people say that, but I Ireally mean it.
People who have gone on to beopera singers and, you know,
whatever. And anyway, so I'm inthe car with four, I think four
or five other people, all ofwhom are, like, very talented in
whatever way they're talented.And this one girl, Bianca, such
(46:07):
a beaut she was physicallybeautiful and had an incredible
voice and singing talent. Andshe was so cranky. Something had
happened.
She was legitimately, like, notfeeling happy. And I remember
saying, well, you have to perm asmile. And she's like she's
(46:27):
like, what's perm a smile? I'mlike, you have to put the
biggest smile on your face thatyou can, and you have to hold it
for a minute. And I'm justmaking this up.
But, like and so she put it likeshe's like, I don't wanna do
that. I'm like I'm like, gottado it. And, like and then, like,
she did, like, showed ithalfway. I'm like, no. No.
No. I'm like, you have to do,like, the biggest smile. So if
you're seeing me, like, a reallybig smile. You know? Now if you
(46:48):
and I were to do it, maybe weshould
Eric Bomyea (46:49):
do it. That's how we're gonna close today.
Timothy Bish (46:51):
No, we we have time actually. Shall I shall I
set a timer? Yeah. Let's do it.Okay.
Okay.
Eric Bomyea (46:55):
So so And for all of you listening, you're more
than welcome to join us as longas you're not driving.
Timothy Bish (46:59):
Or even if are driving. I think you can do this
when you're driving. It's just asmile. Okay. We're we're gonna
try okay.
Let's just let's just do for thepodcast. Let's do thirty
seconds. Okay. Thirty seconds ofPerma Smile and like this now
you and I are already a littlebit happy. Yeah.
Yeah. But like imagine if youwere like, I'm grumpy. You can
hit a bad day.
Eric Bomyea (47:14):
I can tap into it. I'm
Timothy Bish (47:15):
a grumpy pussy. Yeah. Now we're just gonna Perma
Smile. So three, two, one, andgo. Okay.
So it doesn't it doesn't itdoesn't usually happen it
doesn't usually happen this fastif you're cranky. It doesn't
(47:42):
usually happen. Okay. Okay.Well, that was twenty four we
go.
Here we go. That was twenty fourseconds. We got our point is
made. Now if we were cranky, itmight have taken a little while
longer. It might have taken alittle while longer.
But I've never watched a personwilling to do that practice that
doesn't ultimately end upgiggling or laughing by the end
of it. And who would have knownthat that that that I was
(48:07):
tapping in? Oh, I will say this.I then heard this teaching from
Dechen Thurman, an advancedcertified Jeeva Muthi yoga
teacher in, I forget, the earlyaughts, who said, oh, it is said
that the yoga teachings andpractices will emerge
spontaneously when needed. Andwhen I heard that teaching, I
remember I thought back to thatmoment where I thought, I don't
(48:29):
know where I got the idea toPerma Smile, but I was
essentially doing one of eitheryogic or Kabbalistic laughing
practice, and it worked.
Mhmm. So the takeaway from thisepisode is Perma Smile. And
maybe now that we're doing thisseries of little practices,
(48:49):
maybe we'll just do one where wejust Perma Smile.
Eric Bomyea (48:52):
Smile three coming at you soon. Listen.
Timothy Bish (48:57):
It works. It does. It works. Tell us a little bit
about your experience of PermaSmiling.
Eric Bomyea (49:02):
I'm continuously smiling. Can still feel, like I
just naturally want to get intoa smile.
Timothy Bish (49:10):
I see a smile on your
Eric Bomyea (49:10):
Yeah, like it's just there. After just smiling
for thirty seconds, I'm like nowI'm like can I ever remove this
smile from my face? Am I evergonna be grumpy again?
Timothy Bish (49:19):
Yeah. Well, if you when you when you are inevitably
grumpy again, perm a smile.
Eric Bomyea (49:24):
While also acknowledging that I'm grumpy. I
also don't to gaslight myselfout of my emotions.
Timothy Bish (49:28):
No, you get to experience what's So I think we
should we should sort ofconclude our episode today then
with a brief conversation of themoment we're in right now. We're
in a moment when there's not alot of great news, specifically
if you are a queer person, evenmore specifically if you are a
trans person or a trans personof color. Like, there are a lot
(49:51):
of headlines and legislation andthings that are occurring that
are not good. And as you rightlysaid, it isn't our job or even
very helpful to ignore theauthentic experience that we're
having. So we are allowed to bedisappointed, angry, any number
(50:12):
of things.
But we're gonna wanna channelthose emotions in a conscious
way in the direction of solutionand support, but we also need to
make sure that we don't get somired in the overwhelm and the
anger and the frustration thatit starts to have a
deteriorating effect to our ownwell-being, mental, physical,
(50:35):
spiritual, energetic, all ofthat. And so can we create
spaces where we can tap into joyeven when it feels like the
world is crumbling around us?What what what would you say
about the importance of joy inthis moment, political moment?
Eric Bomyea (50:53):
It can feel elusive, that it can feel
distant, can feel forced. Andthat's the invitation. Like even
in the darkness, can you shine alittle light? And even if that's
just like raising the corners ofyour mouth just a little bit to
see how it feels. And assomebody that's on
(51:15):
antidepressants right now, Iunderstand.
It can be a big ask to smile. Iget it.
Timothy Bish (51:23):
What is that quote? Ours is not to curse the
darkness but to be the light.Beautiful. That is an inaccurate
but famous quote from, I think,a former president. But I like
the idea of we there's a lot ofdarkness, and we're welcome to
scream at the darkness if wewant.
Eric Bomyea (51:43):
Absolutely.
Timothy Bish (51:44):
But the way we transform that is to become the
light in the darkness.
Eric Bomyea (51:49):
That's it.
Timothy Bish (51:49):
Yeah. And so practicing joy can help that.
And, like, the Perma Smileexample, which I definitely
recommend, will feel forced atfirst. I never smile that big.
It's not the way you know, it'snot you know?
And allowing ourselves that tooto be, like, just in the same
way that you go to the gym anddo things that you wouldn't
(52:10):
probably do in everyday life,like at the grocery store, you
start doing them at the gym.Same idea. We're gonna, like,
we're gonna emotionallypractice. We're gonna do this
thing. And then we're gonna takeour anger or whatever else, and
we're gonna direct it in aconscious way, and we're gonna
change the world one day at atime.
Eric Bomyea (52:28):
Fuck yeah. Yeah. Alright. Well, thank you for
being with me in thisconversation. I feel still just
a nice glow to my cheeks, and mycheeks are just, like, shining.
I just feel very joyful rightnow. So with that, I feel
complete. How do you feel?
Timothy Bish (52:43):
I also feel complete. I feel complete and
joyful.
Eric Bomyea (52:46):
Yeah. Will you take us out, please?
Timothy Bish (52:48):
I will. Let's close our eyes unless you're
driving. Take a deep inhalethrough the nose. Gentle exhale
through the mouth. And in thismoment, come with appreciation
and gratitude for the sacredspace, any insights or
awarenesses we may have gained.
And as we leave here now, I wisheveryone safety, community,
(53:09):
love, and with these words arecontainers open but not broken.
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
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