In this episode of The Circle Podcast, Eric and Tim explore the transformative power of imagination—not as a childhood relic, but as a radical tool for adult healing, creative expression, emotional intelligence, and personal growth. From visualizing future goals to softening interpersonal conflicts, they unpack how reconnecting with our imaginations can help queer men reclaim authorship over their lives.
Drawing from their own experiences in embodiment practice and men’s work, they reflect on the role imagination plays in everything from visualization and manifestation to empathy, problem-solving, and intimacy. The episode also looks at why so many men struggle with creative visualization—and how to begin rebuilding that muscle.
Whether you were told to “grow up” and abandon your inner world, or you’ve just struggled to visualize your future with clarity, this episode is a powerful invitation to reclaim imagination as a birthright and a practice.
Topics include:
- Why imagination is essential for men’s work and embodiment
- The link between imagination, manifestation, and creativity
- How visualization supports emotional regulation and nervous system health
- Why queer men often struggle with imagination—and how to reclaim it
- The difference between imagination, creativity, and serious play
- Visualization tools, archetypal work, and real-world examples
- How catastrophizing is also a form of imagination—and how to flip the script
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric Bomyea (00:05):
Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go
all in on men's work, embodimentpractices, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. Ifyou're enjoying the show, please
be sure to share your favoriteepisode, leave us a review, and
subscribe. And if you have aquestion about anything you've
heard us talk about, send us amessage. We'd love to hear from
you. Now onto the show.
When we were boys, imaginationwas everything. A stick became a
(00:27):
sword, a pile of pillows, afort, and we created entire
worlds in our backyards. Butsomething happened along the
way. We were told to put itaway, to grow up, to be
productive, to be serious. Whathappened to our imaginations?
And more importantly, what wouldhappen if we brought it back?
Tim, are you ready to go all in?I'm ready. Let's do this. Let's
(00:49):
do it.
So, Tim, you led this week'ssharing circle and embodiment
circle with the theme ofimagination. So could you tell
us a little bit about theintention behind these offerings
and some of the insights ornuggets that came up during
practice?
Timothy Bish (01:04):
Absolutely. Over the last few months in
particular, I've been reallyworking with, positive self
talk, affirmations, versions ofmanifestation in one way or
another. And, you know, there'sa lot of attention paid to
conscious language, choosingcarefully what we say, choosing
(01:27):
carefully what we do, beingmindful of what we consume, not
just, you know, with food, butthrough our eyes and through our
ears and, you know, all thisstuff. And it started to become
clear the the power of ourthoughts, the power of our
thinking. And a lot of themanifestation requires us to get
(01:52):
clear about what it is we wantand then to and then to
visualize it and and reallythink about it and feel about it
with a lot of detail.
And I started to realize, well,that requires imagination. I
have to imagine my life, whetherit's a year from now, five years
from now, ten years from now, oreven later today. I have to be
(02:16):
able to imagine that in orderfor me to engage in some of
these processes. And so itstarted to occur to me that
imagination, which at some pointfelt like it was for children
and needed to be put away as webecame adults, is an essential
ingredient in doing what now tome is important spiritual
(02:38):
personal growth work. If I'mtrying to create the life of my
dreams, then I have tounderstand what my dreams are.
I have to be able to imaginewhat it would look like and feel
like, how it would taste, how itwould sound, all of those
things. And my understanding isthat the more the more connected
we are to the feelings aroundit, the more powerful it can be,
(03:02):
and we need imagination to dothat. And I thought, let's talk
about it because I know a lot ofpeople have had their
imaginations squashed because itis for children. And I wanted to
know about the impact that thathad.
Eric Bomyea (03:17):
Yeah. Thank you for telling us about the intention
behind the circles. Yeah. Thepower of realizing where I'm at
today and where I want to berequires a map in a way. Right?
You gotta have a bridge to getthere. And the bridge is created
(03:38):
by being able to see thedestination or at least the path
along the way. And sometimeswe're not so certain about that
and being able to use ourimagination to start to create
the picture through differentsenses. I love that it wasn't
just a visual. It was like, howdoes it feel?
How does it smell? How does ittaste? Like, it's really kind of
like bringing on all of oursenses to make our imaginations
(04:00):
come alive to then be able tocreate that destination that
we're going towards.
Timothy Bish (04:04):
And I think it's important for us to consider
imagination, you know, existingalong a spectrum. Right? So so I
think it can be really easy toput imagination into a box if it
is make believe, if if it'sfantasy. You know? But if we
think about the opposite ofimagination, we can think about
(04:27):
very rigid thinking.
So so for example, being able totap into our imagination might
allow us to considerperspectives in, let's say, an
interaction with another personwe that we might describe as an
argument. To considerperspectives other than our own,
to me feels like an exercise inthe same slice as imagination.
(04:51):
Can I imagine a totallydifferent perspective on this?
And if so, what can that mean?And we've all been there.
Right? Where something happens,and if I'm just attached to this
is how it happened because thiswas my perspective and my point
of view, then you have a reallyrigid, unbending dynamic that
will often then start to crumbleor, you know, create chaos. If I
(05:12):
can imagine a variety of otherscenarios this person might be
feeling, thinking, or orbehaving from, maybe I soften.
Maybe I have greater compassion.Maybe and then in that practice,
maybe I'm less tortured bywhatever the thing is.
If I'm certain you were justbeing a creep and I and I'm
(05:33):
incapable of imagining anythingelse, think about what that
really robs me of. A lot ofinner peace, a lot of
possibility.
Eric Bomyea (05:43):
I mean, the old adage, walk a mile in somebody's
shoes. That is an exercise inempathy. In order to fully
embody that experience, we'vegot to use our imaginations.
We've got to really imagine whatit's like to be that person.
Timothy Bish (05:58):
Did I ever share the story of my friend Josh in
the soda?
Eric Bomyea (06:03):
I don't think so. I'm gonna
Timothy Bish (06:04):
Are sure? I'm gonna share it right now. It's
connected to this, to a yogicteaching about, the yogic
teaching on emptiness and, youknow, how our perceptions
Anyway, so I was I was on afield trip, a school trip, with
my friend Josh, and he was hisfamily didn't have a lot of
resources. And so I knew thatcertain things, you know,
(06:28):
mattered. And this was the timeby the way, this is funny.
This is the time when we wouldall take sips of each other
others' sodas. Mhmm. Do youremember that? Mhmm. Like a
thing I would probably never donow.
But I'm like, you know soanyway, we're on the bus, and he
he had a soda, and I said, oh,can I have a sip? And he said,
yes. So he handed me a soda,which was probably more than
(06:52):
probably had, like, one thirdleft. Right? And I felt that.
And I said, okay. Well, Iunderstand what this soda means
for him, so I'm gonna be reallymindful. So I put the can to my
mouth, and I start slowlytipping it so as to not take too
much of his soda. And he iswatching me, and he sees me
(07:14):
taking you know, and I probablyforgetting the volume in the can
or whatever, thinking I'm takinga super long sip and taking a
lot of his a lot of it, youknow, so that he he's like, hey.
Don't take so much.
And he grabbed it out of myhand, and I didn't actually get
any soda at all, you know, whichwhich was totally fine. But it's
a good example of can weimagine? Because in that moment,
(07:38):
I felt a little bit like, hey.You said I could have a sip. You
know?
And then I had to put myself inhis shoes. I had to be able to
imagine what it was he wasseeing and recognize that that
was different than what what itwas I was seeing or how it is I
was being. And there's realpower in that because then he's
not the creep that didn't let mehave a sip of a soda. He's the
(08:01):
person concerned for a resourcethat is precious to him, and I
can bring more heart to it.
Eric Bomyea (08:06):
Yeah. That's a great example. Do you do you
recall, like, how
Timothy Bish (08:10):
It was a Doctor Pepper. Doctor
Eric Bomyea (08:13):
Pepper. Hold. Hold. Is that is chair.
Timothy Bish (08:16):
No. I know that chair, but is that a thing?
Eric Bomyea (08:18):
Thirsty Thirsty Burlington makes it a thing with
chair. I'm not sure if it's anactual chairism or a thirsty
Burlington doing chairism. Okay.Well But she'll be like, where's
my Doctor Pepper? And it'sgreat.
Timothy Bish (08:30):
Make you thirsty. I So and and that's if you can
imagine.
Eric Bomyea (08:35):
So if you can imagine, there's his drag queen,
just an incredible Cherimpersonation Cher has even said
to himself.
Timothy Bish (08:42):
Arguably one of the best
Eric Bomyea (08:44):
Cher has said she does Cher better than she does.
Really? Yeah. Oh, hey. Cher hasspecifically said that about
her.
Oh. Oh, that's amazing. Well,
Timothy Bish (08:53):
now well, now.
Eric Bomyea (08:54):
Now. Now. Mean Second best. Yeah. Yeah.
Cher Cher if you're listening.
Timothy Bish (08:58):
Cher and Thirsty. Yeah. We're gonna tag
Eric Bomyea (09:02):
them both. Okay. Sorry. Sorry.
Timothy Bish (09:03):
Keep going. And Doctor Pepper. Okay. Keep going.
Keep going.
Imagination, everybody. Let'simagine we're actually having a
real conversation.
Eric Bomyea (09:08):
We're imagining that we have incredible sponsors
on this show, including DoctorPepper, Cher, and Thirsty
Burlington, but also, like,everyone should sponsor Thirsty
and go see her shows. So Iwanted to ask about how did you
and John? Josh. Josh. How didyou and Josh engage after that?
So he takes away the soda. Mhmm.You are able to bring your
(09:31):
empathy online and say, oh, Ican sit with this. But do you
remember what you guys talkedabout afterwards? Did you
acknowledge it?
No.
Timothy Bish (09:40):
No. No. We were in middle school and I was I was,
like, a sensitive, mildlyintrospective, like, closeted
gay boy. He he wasn't. We had,like, a moment of, like,
annoyance with each other, andthen I think later we started
talking about, you know, middleschool boy stuff.
Mhmm. Superheroes or or sportsor something. Got it.
Eric Bomyea (10:03):
So this was you were able to,
Timothy Bish (10:04):
like We didn't sit down and, like, have, like, a
deep emotion. I I actually lovethe question. Was like, no. Now
Josh and I, like, we're, like,you know, full adults. Like, so
what what what came up for youin that moment, Josh?
He was like, want my fuckingsoda. That's what that's what
came up. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (10:17):
Yeah. No. I'm just I'm just curious because you
were able to, like, have thatwalk a mile in his shoes moment,
and I didn't know if ithappened, like, at that moment
or this was later on that youwere able to have that. So
that's where what I'm curiousabout.
Timothy Bish (10:29):
Started okay. I get it. So it started for me, it
started shortly thereafter.After I was initially annoyed, I
and I didn't go through a asophisticated process like I
might try to now. But I rememberthinking, like, I'm really
annoyed with him because I wastrying to help him.
And I think in my mind then, youknow, in the anxious person that
(10:49):
I am, I'd, like, sort of replayit over. I'm like, well, I was
trying to help him. Was tryingto be considerate. What
happened? And then I started togo through in my mind what I
thought had occurred.
I it is highly possible or evenprobable that he's never given
it a second thought ever again.I mean, I'm that that's the,
(11:10):
like, the person I am, but I'mgonna I'm gonna think about
these things. I think I toldyou, there was a bully of mine
in well, not really a bully, buthe would, like, make fun of me a
lot in in middle school.
Eric Bomyea (11:20):
You can call a bully a bully.
Timothy Bish (11:21):
Yeah. Yeah. And and one time I clapped back at
him because he was fat. And Istill to this day, think about
and feel badly
Eric Bomyea (11:31):
Mhmm.
Timothy Bish (11:32):
About what I said to him, even though he without,
you know, without thought madefun of me, you know, over and
over and over over the course ofyears, I clapped back at him one
time. And even as an adult, I'llsometimes be like, oh, god.
That's, like, not, like, not theperson that I wanna be. So so
with this other example, it isprobable that I thought about it
(11:56):
more than he did.
Eric Bomyea (11:59):
But that's the power of the imagination is
being able to, like, recreatethat moment, whether it's ten
seconds later or twenty yearslater. Right? It's like bringing
on the imagination and saying,Okay, I'm gonna recreate this
scene in my head and kind ofvisualize it and try to be in
(12:19):
the different characters. Right?And so that starts to, for me,
starts to blur a line.
I think the next topic I'd liketo talk about is the difference
because this came up last nightin Circle. The line between no,
this was Monday night and thesharing circle. The line between
imagination and creativity. Soimagination being like, you
(12:43):
know, it's in my head and likedoing all this, but at the same
time, like, I'm creating thisstory and then also maybe
creating something in the world.So I wanna hear your take on the
potential difference betweenthose two things.
Timothy Bish (12:55):
Well, think there's a lot of overlap. So I
would argue that a lot ofcreativity includes imagination.
But it does feel likeimagination can often be a first
step. And then it feels like thethe distinction for me would be
(13:15):
creativity feels like a processwhere I start to do something.
Even if I'm visualizing thechoreography in my head or I'm
I'm, like, roughly writing outthe the plot line to the book,
whatever the thing is, once westart working in the medium on
(13:39):
some level, I think that that isthe moment it becomes
creativity.
I mean, there's no I don't haveany research Mhmm. To to suggest
this, but I know that I've donea lot of creative preparation
for me as a dancer andchoreographer, specifically with
choreography where I will listento music, like, when I lived in
(14:00):
New York City, listen to musicon the subway and be visualizing
the movement. And in that inthat moment, I believe I am
combining imagination andcreativity where but I'm in a
process of knowing, oh, I'mheaded to rehearsal or I'm doing
I'm gonna rehearse thistomorrow, and this is part of
(14:22):
that process even if it's onlyexisting in my head. And
imagination, I think, can bethat same openness of potential
and possibility, but not me attimes without an endgame or or
a, an agenda. So I can imagineI'm a princess.
(14:45):
I can imagine I'm a unicorn. Ican imagine I'm a wizard. I can,
you know, I can, I can imagineI'm a billionaire? I can imagine
I go to space. And that to mefeels like it might be in the
realm of pure imagination, butthere is no I literally don't
know what I'm talking about.
An expert could come in and say,no, these have clear definitions
and you got it wrong.
Eric Bomyea (15:04):
No. No. I think that I think that there's
Imagination can be seen as thespark or then creativity to make
it happen?
Timothy Bish (15:14):
Well, think about when we when we think about the
way that we live our lives,imagination can be, oh, I
imagine myself having a thing. Iwant that car. I imagine it
maybe. But imagination also canyou imagine the possibility that
(15:36):
you could be happier? And thenand then that that process of
imagination wouldn't necessarilyneed to look like anything.
You know what I mean? Or or orit would look unique to each
person. But can you imagine yourlife happier?
Eric Bomyea (15:53):
Can you imagine having greater fulfillment? And
just imagining is just thatthough. Just imagining. I think
then we have to take steps,action towards that imagination.
So again, imagination being kindof this spark.
Yeah. This this imprint, thislike, oh, I can I can start to
see it? I can start to sense it.I can start to feel it. And now
(16:17):
bringing in creativity toactually create it, to create
that into reality.
Timothy Bish (16:23):
But right. And I I hear what you're saying, and I I
totally agree. If you can'timagine it, I it feels really
unlikely that that you're thengoing to take any action in
pursuit of it. So why is an whyis imagination important, I
think, for all people right now?Because without it, if you
(16:45):
cannot imagine that you could behappier, if you're like, my life
is, but this is as good as it'sgonna get, then you'll probably
hang out there and hope for thebest.
And I just said to a client ofmine earlier today, I feel like
a lot of people live their liveslike they're at a craps table.
And each day, we roll the dice.And it's like sometimes I get a
(17:08):
good roll and sometimes I don't.And these practices and this
pursuit and this exploration isintended to give us some tools
and some agency. So so, ratherthan waiting for the the roll of
the dice to determine if youhave a happy day or not, can you
start to imagine yourselfhappier?
(17:30):
And the more time you spend withthat, the clearer the the
picture might get. And then fromthere, action. And then from
action, experience. And thenfrom experience, tightening.
Because we've also had themoment, or I've had the moment,
where I imagine I wantsomething.
And in pursuit of that, I starttaking some actions, and then my
experience teaches me, and thatisn't exactly what I want. But
(17:50):
it's now guiding me. Now I havea clearer idea of what I want.
And then and, you know, repeat,repeat, repeat.
Eric Bomyea (17:56):
It's a loop, it's a cycle, it's a flywheel that kind
of feeds itself. Like if myimagination is creating the
blueprint and then my creativityis manifesting or bringing it
into reality, then as I amcreating, mean, as I'm in the
act of creation, I'm learningand it's informing. And then I
(18:19):
get to bring that back into myimagination to adjust and tweak
and make whatever adjustmentsnecessary to continue going. And
the plan could change, and theimagination could shift it and
change it a little bit here andthere. You know, I think that's
the beauty of it.
Timothy Bish (18:35):
Yeah. So I would argue that visualization and the
kind of visualization that wehear a lot about with world
class athletes in preparationfor their events is in the slice
of imagination. The differencein like, it's sort of a creative
process because it it it isfocused and it's in the work,
(18:57):
but I have to be able to imaginemyself in my event in order for
this to work, which we know itdoes. So I would argue if you
practice visualizing, you areworking in the realm of
imagination.
Eric Bomyea (19:12):
Yeah. This happened on, the preparation for the
retreat that I facilitated at.It was Amir's cueing, like,
there may be some nervesstarting to build right now. And
for me, was. There was a lot ofimpostor syndrome and nerves and
self doubt.
I was like, well, I don't knowif I'm going be able to actually
do this. I'm so uncertain inmyself. It was just like,
(19:33):
imagine yourself there doing itand how does it feel? And I was
able to sit with that. Was like,Oh yeah, I can totally see
myself doing that.
I can see myself in that room,in that space, leading, guiding,
facilitating. And, you know, itreally helped with the nerves.
It really helped me to manifestit and bring it into reality.
(19:54):
Versus the opposite was like Iwas like a bundle of nerves and
not being able to, like, do thething.
Timothy Bish (19:59):
Right. And I think that a lot of people do imagine
a lot in today's world. I thinkthey just negative imagine
catastrophize at times. So Ithink it's easier for us to
imagine all of everything goingwrong and get clear ideas of
(20:23):
what that looks like and howthat's gonna feel, and and we
are less likely to practiceeverything going right. And I
you know, we just there's somany movies, and our brains
don't really know the differencebetween what what we're seeing
in front of us and what wevisualize in our head.
Right? So they were talkingabout the power of our thoughts
(20:45):
with regards to what we'recreating. So for people who are
listening and think, well,imagination, is silly. It's a
waste of time. Well, you're youmight already be doing a lot of
it.
You might be doing a lot of it,and it might not be serving you
because you might be imaginingeverything that could possibly
go wrong and spending verylittle time imagining all the
(21:06):
things that might go right.
Eric Bomyea (21:08):
Yeah. On the topic of catastrophizing and the kind
of like the haunting ornightmare side of imagination, I
shared this in Sharing Circle onMonday that that was a big part
of my imagination. Growing up, Ispent a lot of time alone and I
would just be riddled with fear.Fear that there was going to be
a murderer that was going tocome into my house and get me.
(21:30):
Fear that there was going to bea tornado outside that was going
to, like, sweep away my houseand I'd have to, like, hide in
the basement.
Like, I could I could see it soclearly in my head. And then any
signal, any creak of the floor,any rustle of the breeze just
sent me. It sent me into full onpanic and fear.
Timothy Bish (21:52):
Well, those are both plot lines of movies. So
you're talking about Wizard ofOz
Eric Bomyea (21:56):
and on Friday the thirteenth.
Timothy Bish (21:58):
But, you know, when you when you mentioned this
earlier, I remember thinking,there was a time in my life
Mhmm. When I believed that axedmurderers just walk around the
woods.
Eric Bomyea (22:07):
Absolutely.
Timothy Bish (22:08):
And now as an adult, I think that's crazy.
Mhmm. Like there are so fewpeople to murder.
Eric Bomyea (22:13):
Mhmm.
Timothy Bish (22:13):
And the You know? Like why would they do that?
Mhmm. But that's what I thought.I'm like, oh, if you walk in the
woods at night, that's that'swhere the murderers are.
Yeah. So I get it. Because whenI was a kid, same idea. Be like,
well, there are murderers outthere because that's what I've
seen. But So if you'relistening, there probably
aren't.
Eric Bomyea (22:36):
I was gonna use it as a PSA, but you should still
be cautious, still
Timothy Bish (22:40):
No. I mean, let's not take murdering lightly.
Well, I wanted like I just wannaspeak officially for the Circle
podcast. We are very antimurder. We do not advocate
murder.
So, okay, I feel good about thatnow.
Eric Bomyea (22:55):
So another fear, another part of catastrophizing
imagination, or the imaginationof catastrophizing was, the fear
of ghosts and hauntings. Andthat really scared me a lot as a
kid. And there came a moment, Ican't remember it, but it was
recently actually within thelast couple of years because I
(23:15):
even remember waking up in themiddle of the night and being so
afraid to even get up out ofbed. I was like, oh, like, if I
get up out of bed, the ghost inthe corner is gonna see me and
get me. Like, blah.
And, like, something happenedrecently where I was, like, able
to to, like, start to imaginespirits as benevolent and be
(23:36):
able to, like, have theconfidence to be like, oh, even
if I did encounter one, I'd belike, you know what? Now's not
the time, bro. Right? Like, stayin your spooky corner. It's
fine.
Right? Like, I'm not here foryou. Yeah. Right? And just,
like, being able to, like, havethat.
That to me has been the power anexample of the power of
manifestation to turn mycatastrophizing imagination into
something that I can like workwith and handle.
Timothy Bish (23:59):
Yeah. So Amir talks about having done this
thing. And I remember the firsttime that he mentioned it, it
blew my mind Because I did ittoo, and no one ever taught me
to do it. I just did it. So Isuspect that Amir and I both
felt a similar sense of lack ofsafety in our in our childhood.
(24:19):
But when I was a kid, I wouldsay a prayer. So our father,
hail Mary, a few other ones. Andevery time I said a prayer, I
would imagine, like, one layerof a force field being wrapped
over my bed because I was alsoafraid of ghosts. And there were
days when I needed a lot. I Iwas feeling very uncertain.
(24:42):
But it was I was imagining. Iwas creating in my mind this
protective field around me. AndI would argue, although it was
sad that I felt so unsafe, my Iwas utilizing my imagination in
service to helping me feel safeand ultimately falling asleep.
(25:03):
So it's an example of howimagination can be helpful.
Eric Bomyea (25:06):
Yeah. And it's kind of that imagination can be the
cause of that feeling unsafe,that creation of narrative, but
it can also be the remedy.Right? And that's kind of the
reclamation of imagination, ofreclaiming it that it's not just
something for children. It's notjust something that is for
(25:30):
creative people.
It's something for all of us totake control of our lives, to
take back some power. So one ofthe things that I was hearing
you say earlier about theauthority, like playing craps,
like going through our lives andtaking these chances and kind of
(25:55):
leaving it up to fate or leavingit up to somebody else is maybe
not the way to go about theworld, right? When we can use
our imaginations to take backsome of that power and start to
make our own path and have alittle bit more control out of
our reality.
Timothy Bish (26:15):
Yeah. I think imagination is part of how we
take control of our internal andexternal world.
Eric Bomyea (26:24):
So let's go back to the circles. Were there other
themes that popped up in either?
Timothy Bish (26:35):
I mean, the connection between imagination
and creativity came upfrequently. And also the idea
that I think particularly asmen, we were told to start to
let go of that part of us, youknow, probably mid childhood.
(26:56):
Like, the image that I got fromthe circle was somewhere between
10 and 14 years old. Most peoplein the circle had received the
messaging that this is not whatadults do. This is not what men
do.
Right? You were supposed to beserious. We're supposed to be
protectors, and we're supposedto have the answers and and and
(27:17):
kind of be sensible. Right? Andso there was a a relinquishing
of that connection in service tothis image.
But, you know, what'sinteresting to me is all the
ways in which imagination can bereally practically useful that
(27:38):
no one is talking about. So Ithink the world would be full of
more proficient lovers if wecould utilize our imagination.
If while I'm in the process ofmaking love to someone, I can
(27:59):
imagine how they might befeeling, what they might be
wanting, I think it it wouldserve in that way as opposed to
what I feel like I have seen alot of specifically in, when I
was when I was working withpatients and they would they
would, you know, this very rotewell, this is how this goes. You
(28:22):
start with you start with a andthen you go to b, and then then
from b, can do, like, c a or cb, you know, but then and then
you go to d and then you're kindof done and then, you know,
like, kiss good night. Right?
There's nothing wrong with that,by the way. But but what what if
you started thinking about someother stuff? And then so take it
away from lovemaking and romanceand all that and and bring it to
(28:46):
corporate America where you'resupposed to be have the answers
and hit the deadlines and bereally efficient, but also think
outside of the box. You know, wehear that all the time. Think
outside of the box.
Think differently. But You have
Eric Bomyea (29:00):
two days to do it.
Timothy Bish (29:01):
And you have two days to do it, And we told you
fifteen years ago to stop beingimaginative. So come up with a
really great idea, but do itentirely from logic and reason.
You know, it's it's it's wild.Twyla Tharpe, the famous modern
(29:23):
dance choreographer anddirector, who directed Movin'
Out, my first Broadway show,wrote a book called The Creative
Habit, and there are all thesedifferent exercises in the book
about, ways of being creative.And a lot of that is, like, sort
of look for things inrandomness.
It's a skill. And then gold canbe found. But if you never
(29:48):
practice it, you're probably notgonna be very good at it.
Eric Bomyea (29:52):
So looking things in randomness?
Timothy Bish (29:54):
Yeah. So, for example, she has this one
exercise that you can do, acreative exercise, and it was
this was for the perspective ofa choreographer and dancer, but
it you know, where throw coinsonto a onto a surface, a table,
let's say. And then, of course,the coins the coins will land
there randomly, and they mightbe different sizes, you know.
(30:17):
And then from that, start acreation. Right?
And so, oh, I you know, and whatcan I make from this? That's
imagination. If I have to starthere and I'm creating a dance or
what if I'm making a drawing ormaking a if I have to start
here, what can I where can I go?And then you might end up
(30:39):
somewhere you never would havethought you would, you know, you
never could have imagined at thebeginning, you just had to
imagine the possibility. Andthen you start and you're like,
oh, now I'm in a place I didn'tknow was even possible.
Eric Bomyea (30:52):
Hearing that, first thing that came to my head was
problem solving. And now I'mmaking the connection in my head
that I was told imagination is awaste of time. But what I was
told and what I was trained todo But you were told. I was
told. But what I realized wasthat it was actually kind of
(31:13):
potentially like a reframe oflike, imagination is for
children, but problem solving isfor adults.
Right? And so like, I problemsolve all the time and I'm using
my creativity and my imaginationall the time in my professional
life because I'm solvingproblems.
Timothy Bish (31:28):
Well, that's why we're having this conversation,
because we just have to reframeit. Imagination is an essential
component for real world thingslike problem solving that can
come in very handy, be superlucrative, can, you know, but we
have to be willing to claim itthen. Oh, so this is a part of
how I solve this problem.
Eric Bomyea (31:50):
Or like that that to me is just like how it was
like like a synonym. It waslike, oh, we're replacing. As
you grow up, we're replacing theword imagination and creativity
with problem solving. Becauseit's like, don't know, the the
action of what we talked about,like imagination being the
spark, creativity being thevehicle, right, to, like like,
(32:13):
bring that into to reality,like, it's the same process I go
through in in problem solving. Ijust don't call it imagination
and creativity.
I call it problem solving.Right.
Timothy Bish (32:21):
It's the same thing. Right. Well, and and then
it makes me think about the ideaof play. Mhmm. So I do believe
that imagination can includeplay, the ability to engage in
an activity without, a requiredoutcome for its for its own
(32:43):
sake.
And from that, what can what canbe revealed? So the thing I
guess the distinction I wouldmake is problem solving still
has a, like, a foundation to itor or a method to it. And I
think imagination can be reallyvital to that. I think there are
other kinds or other ways ofengaging imagination that can
(33:05):
exist without that framework,without that structure.
Eric Bomyea (33:07):
My graphic design hero, miss Paula Cher, who did
the
Timothy Bish (33:11):
Miss Paula Cher. Cher host.
Eric Bomyea (33:15):
Do a share
Timothy Bish (33:15):
counter for
Eric Bomyea (33:16):
every time you hear us do a terrible share
impersonation.
Timothy Bish (33:19):
Listen. Yours are terrible. Mine are excellent.
Eric Bomyea (33:21):
Oh, I found someone. Okay. You sound so
good. Okay. So Chad, fire up thethe, other recording studio.
We're gonna do an album next. Soher name was Paula Cher. Yes. So
she's the A graphic design guruof yours. A graphic design hero.
So Paula Scher is a partner atPentagram, a New York City based
(33:46):
graphic design firm, and she isthe designer behind things like
the New York City Public ParksProject. She also did the back
in the day, like her, like,claim to fame or her ways of
getting into things was she wasa designer for record label. So
(34:07):
she did the iconic Chicago albumcover with the flying guitar.
Timothy Bish (34:13):
If you Chicago the band, not Chicago the yeah.
Okay. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (34:15):
Chicago the band. So that iconic flying guitar
spaceship album cover. So shedid that. And she did the
Citibank. When Citibank andTravelers were merging, she did
the arch over the city.
And so that's who Paula Scheris. Anyway, so she has an entire
way of thinking about design,that there is play, which is
(34:39):
very much like what you'retalking about where there's no,
like, predestined outcome.You're just playing. You're
just, like, happily makingmistakes, just seeing what
things do. You're just, like,you're literally just playing
around.
And then there's
Timothy Bish (34:50):
With messiness. Allowing some messiness.
Eric Bomyea (34:52):
And then there's serious play, where you're still
playing, you're still doing thatprocess, but there may be more
of an outcome, right, anintended outcome. And that has
been a philosophy that I'veleveraged in my design career is
like, how can I be playful butseriously? Yeah. Mhmm. And then
bringing that bringing that tothe attention.
Timothy Bish (35:10):
You know, I find it really, inspiring. So every
summer, there is a theme weekhere in Provincetown called
Carnival. And it is sponsored bythe PBG, right?
Eric Bomyea (35:25):
Provincetown Business Guild, yep. Yes.
Timothy Bish (35:27):
And it has a theme, and when I give my
costume a lot of effort and Iand I and a lot of time, those
are the the years where I havethe most amount of fun. And I
think it's because of whatyou're talking about. You you I
use my imagination. So, youknow, interestingly, when the
(35:50):
themes really spark myimagination, that's also when I
tend to be like, oh, I have thisidea. And there have been themes
where I'm like, it's not it'snot sparking me in the same way.
It's harder. You know? So I getsparked. I get an idea. And
then, you know, I try somestuff, which I guess is the the
play.
And then once I have a clearidea, I I definitely move into
(36:11):
what did you call it?
Eric Bomyea (36:11):
Like Serious play.
Timothy Bish (36:12):
Serious play. And and serious play is I still
wanna look cool at Carnival. Iwanna look great in the parade
or or, like, along the paraderoute. And it is so much fun.
Mhmm.
So much fun. And, you know,anyone anyone who's listening,
you can go onto my Instagram ifyou want to see me when I was
the kettlebell. And I just Ilove that outfit so much. I was
(36:36):
having a ball the whole day. Areally fun time.
Eric Bomyea (36:40):
What was the theme that year?
Timothy Bish (36:43):
Oh, was Toyland. Toyland. So, I mean, so it was a
bit of a stretch arguably, likeMhmm. I was like, kettlebells
are They're your toys. They'rebig toys for big boys.
Yay. But I just made that up.
Eric Bomyea (36:54):
New merch?
Timothy Bish (36:55):
Well, I mean, big toys for big boys. Yeah. Yes.
Kettlebells are, and I lovethem. So it was a bit of a
stretch on the theme, but I hadit was probably my favorite
carnival I've ever done.
Eric Bomyea (37:06):
That was a really cool outfit. Thank you. It was
really fun. Thank you. Yeah.
Yeah. I think, like, bringing itall together now, right, is,
like, you were able to have aspark
Timothy Bish (37:18):
Boom. Play a little bit Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea (37:21):
Start to bring creativity into the picture, and
then move it into production.Right? Like, actual, like, like,
making this thing happen, thisspark of an idea that you had
and actually, like, bringing itout into the world, birthing it
out into the world.
Timothy Bish (37:35):
And in the process of doing it, I had to learn. So
I guess that's serious play,right? As I was doing it, I'm
like, well, this is working,this isn't working. I think
that's part of serious play,right?
Eric Bomyea (37:44):
Absolutely. I think that, like, how can we take that
into other aspects of our life?Let's talk about bringing it
back to men's work andembodiment practices now. Like,
what are some of the things thatcan benefit from more
imagination, more play, moreserious play?
Timothy Bish (38:02):
Well, one of the things I hear a lot, so in the
lineage in which I am trained,in the the men's embodiment
circle, we have the fiveinstruments. I could quiz you,
but they they are Bring
Eric Bomyea (38:12):
it on.
Timothy Bish (38:13):
What what are the five instruments?
Eric Bomyea (38:14):
They are attention, breath, visualization, sound,
and sometimes touch, so six. I'mI'm only gonna get a 90 on this
course. Goodness.
Timothy Bish (38:25):
I'm only gonna get 90. I think you only get an 80
because there are five.
Eric Bomyea (38:28):
I introduced the sixth one, touch.
Timothy Bish (38:30):
Yeah. But that's not really if you if this
Eric Bomyea (38:35):
is See my Brad energy coming online right now
where I'm like, buh buh buh buh.
Timothy Bish (38:39):
And movement or or posture. Right. Right. Right.
Right.
And so okay. So, movement,breath, sound, visualization,
and attention. And a lot of menhave come up to me, over the two
plus years now that we've beenrunning the circle and will say,
I have a really hard timevisualizing. I have a really
(39:00):
hard time visualizing. And Ithink that, first and foremost,
visualization can be differentfor different people.
So and I think in the in moviesand TV, we think of it as this
really crisp, clear, like,premonition, like, oh, the movie
trailer playing on the back ofmy forehead, and I just watch
it. It's that clear. And maybefor some people, is. And then I
(39:23):
think for other people, it canbe a little bit muddier than
that or a little bit, you know,more abstract. And they feel
like it should be that, and soI'm not doing it right.
And I'm like, no. You have tojust give it a try. But I I
realize now I'm inviting them topractice with their imagination
(39:44):
skills. And then also, you know,included in visualization would
be trusting what is coming andadding letting this physical
sensations of your own bodyinfluence these things, so it
gets a little bit morecomplicated. But, oh, partly we
might be having troublevisualizing because we were told
to stop.
Eric Bomyea (40:02):
I have a story on that. Because this was actually
one of the transformativemoments in my shamanic
journeying and visualization. Idon't know if I'm going call it
ability, but my capacity toallow myself to go there.
Because I was somebody that wasanytime the cueing of
visualization came up, I couldsometimes get stuck where I'd be
(40:25):
like, oh, I'm not imagining bigenough. I'm not doing it right.
It's good enough. And I think Ican take that back to being the
first time that I was graded foran art project. I used to love
art. I used to love to draw andpaint and do all these things
and express myself through avisual medium. And then you
introduce grades and I'm like,oh, there's a right way to do
(40:46):
this?
And so I think I took that intovisualization practices and kind
of having to work through that.And one of the practices that
helped shake me out of that wasfacilitated by Carrie Kalighi.
She brought us through thisreally beautiful journey where
she wanted us to invite inMerlin. And at one point, was
(41:10):
like, in my head, please don'tlet Merlin just be this classic
trope of an old man with a beardand a blue robe with stars and
moons on it. And that's whatcame up.
And it was like, I I initiallywas gonna fight against it. I
was initially gonna say, no,Eric, you can do better. You can
create a better visual of Merlinthan that. And then I said, no.
(41:33):
This is my Merlin, and I'm gonnago with it.
And I had such an impactfulexperience through that
allowance of saying, this iswhat this is gonna be. And was
it the most creative thing inthe world? Yeah. It was because
I created it in in myimagination and was able to,
like, be in that journey. Was itthe most unique and novel thing
in the world?
(41:53):
No. And I think that sometimesprevents me from, you know,
chasing creativity.
Timothy Bish (41:58):
So say that again. What Rephrase that. What stops
you from chasing creativity?
Eric Bomyea (42:04):
Something having to be novel, unique, the most
original, the most creative, thebest. Yeah. Right? Because,
like, again, I saw the classictrope of, like, Merlin from The
Sorcerer's Apprentice fromFantasia. Sure.
Right? Just like old guy, bluerobe, stars and moons. I was,
like, basic. It was a basic, youknow, visualization.
Timothy Bish (42:25):
So this is interesting because I do think
when people work with theirimagination, that there might be
a pressure that I have to thenimagine something very unique,
very interesting. You know? Andyou're sort of talking about
archetypal work. One of the oneof the powers of that is that we
all have a sense of what thisperson looks like, and that can
(42:46):
help us access it more quickly.Right?
So if you're imagining the king,I think we all maybe have a
general sense of, oh, he's gotlike a big, you know, coat on
and a crown and, you know,whatever. So we don't always
have to reinvent the wheel forour imagination to really serve
(43:08):
us. It sounds to me like youdrew on an idea of Merlin that
was really helpful.
Eric Bomyea (43:14):
It
Timothy Bish (43:14):
was. And it was clear because we've seen it a
hundred times.
Eric Bomyea (43:18):
And now when I do visualizations, I have so much
more allowance and I have somuch more just capacity to go
there to visualize. Wheninitially I struggled, I've
really struggled withvisualization, just like you
were saying. A lot of men whenthey come into this space, I was
one of those men. I was one ofthose men that had a really hard
time connecting with a visual.And I mean, it's still a
(43:41):
challenge just like some of themovement practices, just like
some of the breathworkpractices.
It still is a challenge for areason, but I have a lot more
allowance. I have a lot moreallowance to let it be what it's
going to be without thispressure of saying it needs to
be a certain thing or it needsto be better, it needs to be
novel, it needs to be unique.All these things that I had been
(44:03):
graded on and applauded forthroughout my career.
Timothy Bish (44:07):
Yeah. I think we have to remember that it's a
skill that we need to practice.And like learning any new thing,
it'll be hard and you'reprobably not going be great at
it right away. And visualizationwas never natural for me in that
sense either, and I feel like Ihave gotten better at it with
(44:30):
practice. But, yeah, there aretimes when, oh, I don't see that
clear picture, but I'm havingsome experience, and can I work
with that experience?
And so allowing ourselves that.You know, I was working with a
client one time, and this is adeeply practiced man, actually,
trying to get him to visualizebasically like microcosmic
(44:53):
orbital breathing, likebreathing down the front of the
body and up the back of thebody. And he was very attached
to, like, I can't visualize. Ican't visualize. And I gave him
a few different ways to sort ofhelp, but he sort of kept coming
back with, I can't do this.
I've never been able to do this.I can't do this. And at some
point, you think, well, thenthat's true. If, you know, if
(45:16):
you've convinced yourself youcan't, you can't. You're like,
you're right.
And I mean
Eric Bomyea (45:20):
That's the reality you're gonna create if that's
the narrative. That's if that'syour imagination telling you.
Right. Well, whether you
Timothy Bish (45:26):
think you can or you can't, you're right.
Eric Bomyea (45:27):
Yeah. It's I mean, we've
Timothy Bish (45:29):
all heard that. It's the same idea. And so I
think if you're wanting todeepen your capacity to work
with your imagination, deepenyour capacity to visualize, you
have to be willing to try, andyou have to be willing for it to
not be whatever it is you thinkis perfect for a while. Yeah. So
(45:49):
I keep thinking about Charmedand Phoebe from Charmed played
by Alyssa Milano.
We're referencing, you know, somany tags for this episode.
Alyssa Milano was the youngestof three sisters in the original
Charmed until Shannon Doughertyleft and then they got a
stepsister. And she had theability to premonition. And her
premonition came like like sortof cloudy movie trailers of,
(46:12):
like, what was gonna happen. Ifthat is the image you have of,
like, what imagination orvisualization is gonna be, then
you're probably gonna feel likeyou're not doing it right.
Eric Bomyea (46:23):
Going back to the the man that you were working
with Mhmm. Who was strugglingwith the the visualization of
micro orbital breath, like, wereyou able to have a breakthrough?
Timothy Bish (46:33):
I gave him tactile aid. So I asked him to run his
finger up and down his midlineMhmm. Tracing the breath to try
to bring in another sense to theexperience. So he said that that
was helpful, but he kept tellingme, but I can't do this. And so
(46:58):
it helped a little bit.
Eric Bomyea (47:00):
Yeah. I love that practice and that nudge because
then it's bringing on a coupledifferent senses. Because the
goal of something like that, forme anyway, is that like, oh, I'm
trying to draw my awareness tomy breath and consciously move
it in very specific shape orposition throughout my body. And
(47:23):
visualization can help me dothat by thinking like, oh,
there's a snake running up myback and a tiger running down my
front. I can start to use thatvisual to do it, or I can think
about it as a ball of light.
Maybe my breath is a ball oflight and I can follow that ball
of light down and then backaround. One of the brothers in
(47:46):
sharing circle mentionedsomething about growing a
unicorn horn as a way attentionto the third eye. If that is a
challenge, then can you imaginea horn growing out of your
forehead and bring on theimagination? Or if you're trying
to expand the breath into theback body, can you imagine wings
(48:09):
like sprouting out from yourshoulders and then being able to
bring the breath into that?
Timothy Bish (48:14):
And I say this a lot in the circles. You've heard
me say it many times, that youhave to also trust what works
for you. So if a visual so I'dnever heard the unicorn horn for
the third eye, but I I'mprobably gonna try it now. And
if it works for you, great. Andlet let what is working for you
(48:38):
be an indication of what worksfor you.
I mean, it's one of theprinciples of, HUNE.
Effectiveness is the measure oftruth. I hope I didn't misquote
that. But if it works for you,then it works for you. Keep
working with it.
Mhmm. So if you're the personwho needs to add some touch or
(48:59):
you need to visualize the breathlike it's smoke or it needs to
be a tiger one way and a snakethe other way or, you know, And
and this is the moment whereimagination really comes in.
There is no wrong answer if itworks for you. So, you know,
it's funny when I would I wouldtalk to my acupuncture patients
and ask them to tell me, youknow, how they were feeling
(49:21):
sensationally. And I would givethem some options.
And at the end, I would say,there is no wrong way to
describe what you're feeling ifit's what you're feeling. I
said, you could tell me it feelslike honey dripping down tree
bark, and that gives me moreinformation than the word fine.
Mhmm. But also, I have a senseof what you mean even though I
(49:42):
don't know what that feels like.So that so the people who had
greater access to theirimagination had greater capacity
to share their sensationalexperience with me.
And in so doing, serving theiracupuncture treatment and me,
making it easier for me to treatthem and making it more likely
that they get a better result.So it's a powerful, powerful
(50:05):
tool.
Eric Bomyea (50:05):
Bringing it back to something you said in the
beginning, this idea of cocreating reality, allowing our
imaginations to really help usto manifest the reality that we
want to see and experience inthis world.
Timothy Bish (50:22):
You have to be able to imagine it.
Eric Bomyea (50:24):
Yeah. So I really do think that imagination is one
of the most radical things wecan reclaim as adults. And it's
not just a distraction fromreality. It's not just to
daydream or anything like that.It's actually a tool to shape
reality.
And so maybe the more we canpractice it, the more that we
can imagine it for others too,for others to practice the
(50:47):
manifestation of their ownreality. So I am feeling
complete.
Timothy Bish (50:52):
How are
Eric Bomyea (50:53):
you feeling?
Timothy Bish (50:53):
I feel complete. Alright.
Eric Bomyea (50:55):
Will you take us out, please?
Timothy Bish (50:55):
I will. Let's close our eyes and take a deep
inhale through the nose andgentle exhale through the mouth.
And with deep appreciation andgratitude for the shared sacred
space and for any insights,awarenesses, or understandings
that were gained, that we nowrelease the archetypes and the
spirits that we called in. Andas we leave the circle, I wish
(51:18):
you all safety, community,brotherhood, and love. With
these words, our container isopen but not broken.
Uh-huh.
Eric Bomyea (51:25):
Uh-huh.
Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go
all in on men's work, embodimentpractices, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. Ifyou're enjoying the show, please
be sure to share your favoriteepisode, leave us a review, and
subscribe. And if you have aquestion about anything you've
heard us talk about, send us amessage. We'd love to hear from
you. Now onto the show.
When we were boys, imaginationwas everything. A stick became a
(00:27):
sword, a pile of pillows, afort, and we created entire
worlds in our backyards. Butsomething happened along the
way. We were told to put itaway, to grow up, to be
productive, to be serious. Whathappened to our imaginations?
And more importantly, what wouldhappen if we brought it back?
Tim, are you ready to go all in?I'm ready. Let's do this. Let's
(00:49):
do it.
So, Tim, you led this week'ssharing circle and embodiment
circle with the theme ofimagination. So could you tell
us a little bit about theintention behind these offerings
and some of the insights ornuggets that came up during
practice?
Timothy Bish (01:04):
Absolutely. Over the last few months in
particular, I've been reallyworking with, positive self
talk, affirmations, versions ofmanifestation in one way or
another. And, you know, there'sa lot of attention paid to
conscious language, choosingcarefully what we say, choosing
(01:27):
carefully what we do, beingmindful of what we consume, not
just, you know, with food, butthrough our eyes and through our
ears and, you know, all thisstuff. And it started to become
clear the the power of ourthoughts, the power of our
thinking. And a lot of themanifestation requires us to get
(01:52):
clear about what it is we wantand then to and then to
visualize it and and reallythink about it and feel about it
with a lot of detail.
And I started to realize, well,that requires imagination. I
have to imagine my life, whetherit's a year from now, five years
from now, ten years from now, oreven later today. I have to be
(02:16):
able to imagine that in orderfor me to engage in some of
these processes. And so itstarted to occur to me that
imagination, which at some pointfelt like it was for children
and needed to be put away as webecame adults, is an essential
ingredient in doing what now tome is important spiritual
(02:38):
personal growth work. If I'mtrying to create the life of my
dreams, then I have tounderstand what my dreams are.
I have to be able to imaginewhat it would look like and feel
like, how it would taste, how itwould sound, all of those
things. And my understanding isthat the more the more connected
we are to the feelings aroundit, the more powerful it can be,
(03:02):
and we need imagination to dothat. And I thought, let's talk
about it because I know a lot ofpeople have had their
imaginations squashed because itis for children. And I wanted to
know about the impact that thathad.
Eric Bomyea (03:17):
Yeah. Thank you for telling us about the intention
behind the circles. Yeah. Thepower of realizing where I'm at
today and where I want to berequires a map in a way. Right?
You gotta have a bridge to getthere. And the bridge is created
(03:38):
by being able to see thedestination or at least the path
along the way. And sometimeswe're not so certain about that
and being able to use ourimagination to start to create
the picture through differentsenses. I love that it wasn't
just a visual. It was like, howdoes it feel?
How does it smell? How does ittaste? Like, it's really kind of
like bringing on all of oursenses to make our imaginations
(04:00):
come alive to then be able tocreate that destination that
we're going towards.
Timothy Bish (04:04):
And I think it's important for us to consider
imagination, you know, existingalong a spectrum. Right? So so I
think it can be really easy toput imagination into a box if it
is make believe, if if it'sfantasy. You know? But if we
think about the opposite ofimagination, we can think about
(04:27):
very rigid thinking.
So so for example, being able totap into our imagination might
allow us to considerperspectives in, let's say, an
interaction with another personwe that we might describe as an
argument. To considerperspectives other than our own,
to me feels like an exercise inthe same slice as imagination.
(04:51):
Can I imagine a totallydifferent perspective on this?
And if so, what can that mean?And we've all been there.
Right? Where something happens,and if I'm just attached to this
is how it happened because thiswas my perspective and my point
of view, then you have a reallyrigid, unbending dynamic that
will often then start to crumbleor, you know, create chaos. If I
(05:12):
can imagine a variety of otherscenarios this person might be
feeling, thinking, or orbehaving from, maybe I soften.
Maybe I have greater compassion.Maybe and then in that practice,
maybe I'm less tortured bywhatever the thing is.
If I'm certain you were justbeing a creep and I and I'm
(05:33):
incapable of imagining anythingelse, think about what that
really robs me of. A lot ofinner peace, a lot of
possibility.
Eric Bomyea (05:43):
I mean, the old adage, walk a mile in somebody's
shoes. That is an exercise inempathy. In order to fully
embody that experience, we'vegot to use our imaginations.
We've got to really imagine whatit's like to be that person.
Timothy Bish (05:58):
Did I ever share the story of my friend Josh in
the soda?
Eric Bomyea (06:03):
I don't think so. I'm gonna
Timothy Bish (06:04):
Are sure? I'm gonna share it right now. It's
connected to this, to a yogicteaching about, the yogic
teaching on emptiness and, youknow, how our perceptions
Anyway, so I was I was on afield trip, a school trip, with
my friend Josh, and he was hisfamily didn't have a lot of
resources. And so I knew thatcertain things, you know,
(06:28):
mattered. And this was the timeby the way, this is funny.
This is the time when we wouldall take sips of each other
others' sodas. Mhmm. Do youremember that? Mhmm. Like a
thing I would probably never donow.
But I'm like, you know soanyway, we're on the bus, and he
he had a soda, and I said, oh,can I have a sip? And he said,
yes. So he handed me a soda,which was probably more than
(06:52):
probably had, like, one thirdleft. Right? And I felt that.
And I said, okay. Well, Iunderstand what this soda means
for him, so I'm gonna be reallymindful. So I put the can to my
mouth, and I start slowlytipping it so as to not take too
much of his soda. And he iswatching me, and he sees me
(07:14):
taking you know, and I probablyforgetting the volume in the can
or whatever, thinking I'm takinga super long sip and taking a
lot of his a lot of it, youknow, so that he he's like, hey.
Don't take so much.
And he grabbed it out of myhand, and I didn't actually get
any soda at all, you know, whichwhich was totally fine. But it's
a good example of can weimagine? Because in that moment,
(07:38):
I felt a little bit like, hey.You said I could have a sip. You
know?
And then I had to put myself inhis shoes. I had to be able to
imagine what it was he wasseeing and recognize that that
was different than what what itwas I was seeing or how it is I
was being. And there's realpower in that because then he's
not the creep that didn't let mehave a sip of a soda. He's the
(08:01):
person concerned for a resourcethat is precious to him, and I
can bring more heart to it.
Eric Bomyea (08:06):
Yeah. That's a great example. Do you do you
recall, like, how
Timothy Bish (08:10):
It was a Doctor Pepper. Doctor
Eric Bomyea (08:13):
Pepper. Hold. Hold. Is that is chair.
Timothy Bish (08:16):
No. I know that chair, but is that a thing?
Eric Bomyea (08:18):
Thirsty Thirsty Burlington makes it a thing with
chair. I'm not sure if it's anactual chairism or a thirsty
Burlington doing chairism. Okay.Well But she'll be like, where's
my Doctor Pepper? And it'sgreat.
Timothy Bish (08:30):
Make you thirsty. I So and and that's if you can
imagine.
Eric Bomyea (08:35):
So if you can imagine, there's his drag queen,
just an incredible Cherimpersonation Cher has even said
to himself.
Timothy Bish (08:42):
Arguably one of the best
Eric Bomyea (08:44):
Cher has said she does Cher better than she does.
Really? Yeah. Oh, hey. Cher hasspecifically said that about
her.
Oh. Oh, that's amazing. Well,
Timothy Bish (08:53):
now well, now.
Eric Bomyea (08:54):
Now. Now. Mean Second best. Yeah. Yeah.
Cher Cher if you're listening.
Timothy Bish (08:58):
Cher and Thirsty. Yeah. We're gonna tag
Eric Bomyea (09:02):
them both. Okay. Sorry. Sorry.
Timothy Bish (09:03):
Keep going. And Doctor Pepper. Okay. Keep going.
Keep going.
Imagination, everybody. Let'simagine we're actually having a
real conversation.
Eric Bomyea (09:08):
We're imagining that we have incredible sponsors
on this show, including DoctorPepper, Cher, and Thirsty
Burlington, but also, like,everyone should sponsor Thirsty
and go see her shows. So Iwanted to ask about how did you
and John? Josh. Josh. How didyou and Josh engage after that?
So he takes away the soda. Mhmm.You are able to bring your
(09:31):
empathy online and say, oh, Ican sit with this. But do you
remember what you guys talkedabout afterwards? Did you
acknowledge it?
No.
Timothy Bish (09:40):
No. No. We were in middle school and I was I was,
like, a sensitive, mildlyintrospective, like, closeted
gay boy. He he wasn't. We had,like, a moment of, like,
annoyance with each other, andthen I think later we started
talking about, you know, middleschool boy stuff.
Mhmm. Superheroes or or sportsor something. Got it.
Eric Bomyea (10:03):
So this was you were able to,
Timothy Bish (10:04):
like We didn't sit down and, like, have, like, a
deep emotion. I I actually lovethe question. Was like, no. Now
Josh and I, like, we're, like,you know, full adults. Like, so
what what what came up for youin that moment, Josh?
He was like, want my fuckingsoda. That's what that's what
came up. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (10:17):
Yeah. No. I'm just I'm just curious because you
were able to, like, have thatwalk a mile in his shoes moment,
and I didn't know if ithappened, like, at that moment
or this was later on that youwere able to have that. So
that's where what I'm curiousabout.
Timothy Bish (10:29):
Started okay. I get it. So it started for me, it
started shortly thereafter.After I was initially annoyed, I
and I didn't go through a asophisticated process like I
might try to now. But I rememberthinking, like, I'm really
annoyed with him because I wastrying to help him.
And I think in my mind then, youknow, in the anxious person that
(10:49):
I am, I'd, like, sort of replayit over. I'm like, well, I was
trying to help him. Was tryingto be considerate. What
happened? And then I started togo through in my mind what I
thought had occurred.
I it is highly possible or evenprobable that he's never given
it a second thought ever again.I mean, I'm that that's the,
(11:10):
like, the person I am, but I'mgonna I'm gonna think about
these things. I think I toldyou, there was a bully of mine
in well, not really a bully, buthe would, like, make fun of me a
lot in in middle school.
Eric Bomyea (11:20):
You can call a bully a bully.
Timothy Bish (11:21):
Yeah. Yeah. And and one time I clapped back at
him because he was fat. And Istill to this day, think about
and feel badly
Eric Bomyea (11:31):
Mhmm.
Timothy Bish (11:32):
About what I said to him, even though he without,
you know, without thought madefun of me, you know, over and
over and over over the course ofyears, I clapped back at him one
time. And even as an adult, I'llsometimes be like, oh, god.
That's, like, not, like, not theperson that I wanna be. So so
with this other example, it isprobable that I thought about it
(11:56):
more than he did.
Eric Bomyea (11:59):
But that's the power of the imagination is
being able to, like, recreatethat moment, whether it's ten
seconds later or twenty yearslater. Right? It's like bringing
on the imagination and saying,Okay, I'm gonna recreate this
scene in my head and kind ofvisualize it and try to be in
(12:19):
the different characters. Right?And so that starts to, for me,
starts to blur a line.
I think the next topic I'd liketo talk about is the difference
because this came up last nightin Circle. The line between no,
this was Monday night and thesharing circle. The line between
imagination and creativity. Soimagination being like, you
(12:43):
know, it's in my head and likedoing all this, but at the same
time, like, I'm creating thisstory and then also maybe
creating something in the world.So I wanna hear your take on the
potential difference betweenthose two things.
Timothy Bish (12:55):
Well, think there's a lot of overlap. So I
would argue that a lot ofcreativity includes imagination.
But it does feel likeimagination can often be a first
step. And then it feels like thethe distinction for me would be
(13:15):
creativity feels like a processwhere I start to do something.
Even if I'm visualizing thechoreography in my head or I'm
I'm, like, roughly writing outthe the plot line to the book,
whatever the thing is, once westart working in the medium on
(13:39):
some level, I think that that isthe moment it becomes
creativity.
I mean, there's no I don't haveany research Mhmm. To to suggest
this, but I know that I've donea lot of creative preparation
for me as a dancer andchoreographer, specifically with
choreography where I will listento music, like, when I lived in
(14:00):
New York City, listen to musicon the subway and be visualizing
the movement. And in that inthat moment, I believe I am
combining imagination andcreativity where but I'm in a
process of knowing, oh, I'mheaded to rehearsal or I'm doing
I'm gonna rehearse thistomorrow, and this is part of
(14:22):
that process even if it's onlyexisting in my head. And
imagination, I think, can bethat same openness of potential
and possibility, but not me attimes without an endgame or or
a, an agenda. So I can imagineI'm a princess.
(14:45):
I can imagine I'm a unicorn. Ican imagine I'm a wizard. I can,
you know, I can, I can imagineI'm a billionaire? I can imagine
I go to space. And that to mefeels like it might be in the
realm of pure imagination, butthere is no I literally don't
know what I'm talking about.
An expert could come in and say,no, these have clear definitions
and you got it wrong.
Eric Bomyea (15:04):
No. No. I think that I think that there's
Imagination can be seen as thespark or then creativity to make
it happen?
Timothy Bish (15:14):
Well, think about when we when we think about the
way that we live our lives,imagination can be, oh, I
imagine myself having a thing. Iwant that car. I imagine it
maybe. But imagination also canyou imagine the possibility that
(15:36):
you could be happier? And thenand then that that process of
imagination wouldn't necessarilyneed to look like anything.
You know what I mean? Or or orit would look unique to each
person. But can you imagine yourlife happier?
Eric Bomyea (15:53):
Can you imagine having greater fulfillment? And
just imagining is just thatthough. Just imagining. I think
then we have to take steps,action towards that imagination.
So again, imagination being kindof this spark.
Yeah. This this imprint, thislike, oh, I can I can start to
see it? I can start to sense it.I can start to feel it. And now
(16:17):
bringing in creativity toactually create it, to create
that into reality.
Timothy Bish (16:23):
But right. And I I hear what you're saying, and I I
totally agree. If you can'timagine it, I it feels really
unlikely that that you're thengoing to take any action in
pursuit of it. So why is an whyis imagination important, I
think, for all people right now?Because without it, if you
(16:45):
cannot imagine that you could behappier, if you're like, my life
is, but this is as good as it'sgonna get, then you'll probably
hang out there and hope for thebest.
And I just said to a client ofmine earlier today, I feel like
a lot of people live their liveslike they're at a craps table.
And each day, we roll the dice.And it's like sometimes I get a
(17:08):
good roll and sometimes I don't.And these practices and this
pursuit and this exploration isintended to give us some tools
and some agency. So so, ratherthan waiting for the the roll of
the dice to determine if youhave a happy day or not, can you
start to imagine yourselfhappier?
(17:30):
And the more time you spend withthat, the clearer the the
picture might get. And then fromthere, action. And then from
action, experience. And thenfrom experience, tightening.
Because we've also had themoment, or I've had the moment,
where I imagine I wantsomething.
And in pursuit of that, I starttaking some actions, and then my
experience teaches me, and thatisn't exactly what I want. But
(17:50):
it's now guiding me. Now I havea clearer idea of what I want.
And then and, you know, repeat,repeat, repeat.
Eric Bomyea (17:56):
It's a loop, it's a cycle, it's a flywheel that kind
of feeds itself. Like if myimagination is creating the
blueprint and then my creativityis manifesting or bringing it
into reality, then as I amcreating, mean, as I'm in the
act of creation, I'm learningand it's informing. And then I
(18:19):
get to bring that back into myimagination to adjust and tweak
and make whatever adjustmentsnecessary to continue going. And
the plan could change, and theimagination could shift it and
change it a little bit here andthere. You know, I think that's
the beauty of it.
Timothy Bish (18:35):
Yeah. So I would argue that visualization and the
kind of visualization that wehear a lot about with world
class athletes in preparationfor their events is in the slice
of imagination. The differencein like, it's sort of a creative
process because it it it isfocused and it's in the work,
(18:57):
but I have to be able to imaginemyself in my event in order for
this to work, which we know itdoes. So I would argue if you
practice visualizing, you areworking in the realm of
imagination.
Eric Bomyea (19:12):
Yeah. This happened on, the preparation for the
retreat that I facilitated at.It was Amir's cueing, like,
there may be some nervesstarting to build right now. And
for me, was. There was a lot ofimpostor syndrome and nerves and
self doubt.
I was like, well, I don't knowif I'm going be able to actually
do this. I'm so uncertain inmyself. It was just like,
(19:33):
imagine yourself there doing itand how does it feel? And I was
able to sit with that. Was like,Oh yeah, I can totally see
myself doing that.
I can see myself in that room,in that space, leading, guiding,
facilitating. And, you know, itreally helped with the nerves.
It really helped me to manifestit and bring it into reality.
(19:54):
Versus the opposite was like Iwas like a bundle of nerves and
not being able to, like, do thething.
Timothy Bish (19:59):
Right. And I think that a lot of people do imagine
a lot in today's world. I thinkthey just negative imagine
catastrophize at times. So Ithink it's easier for us to
imagine all of everything goingwrong and get clear ideas of
(20:23):
what that looks like and howthat's gonna feel, and and we
are less likely to practiceeverything going right. And I
you know, we just there's somany movies, and our brains
don't really know the differencebetween what what we're seeing
in front of us and what wevisualize in our head.
Right? So they were talkingabout the power of our thoughts
(20:45):
with regards to what we'recreating. So for people who are
listening and think, well,imagination, is silly. It's a
waste of time. Well, you're youmight already be doing a lot of
it.
You might be doing a lot of it,and it might not be serving you
because you might be imaginingeverything that could possibly
go wrong and spending verylittle time imagining all the
(21:06):
things that might go right.
Eric Bomyea (21:08):
Yeah. On the topic of catastrophizing and the kind
of like the haunting ornightmare side of imagination, I
shared this in Sharing Circle onMonday that that was a big part
of my imagination. Growing up, Ispent a lot of time alone and I
would just be riddled with fear.Fear that there was going to be
a murderer that was going tocome into my house and get me.
(21:30):
Fear that there was going to bea tornado outside that was going
to, like, sweep away my houseand I'd have to, like, hide in
the basement.
Like, I could I could see it soclearly in my head. And then any
signal, any creak of the floor,any rustle of the breeze just
sent me. It sent me into full onpanic and fear.
Timothy Bish (21:52):
Well, those are both plot lines of movies. So
you're talking about Wizard ofOz
Eric Bomyea (21:56):
and on Friday the thirteenth.
Timothy Bish (21:58):
But, you know, when you when you mentioned this
earlier, I remember thinking,there was a time in my life
Mhmm. When I believed that axedmurderers just walk around the
woods.
Eric Bomyea (22:07):
Absolutely.
Timothy Bish (22:08):
And now as an adult, I think that's crazy.
Mhmm. Like there are so fewpeople to murder.
Eric Bomyea (22:13):
Mhmm.
Timothy Bish (22:13):
And the You know? Like why would they do that?
Mhmm. But that's what I thought.I'm like, oh, if you walk in the
woods at night, that's that'swhere the murderers are.
Yeah. So I get it. Because whenI was a kid, same idea. Be like,
well, there are murderers outthere because that's what I've
seen. But So if you'relistening, there probably
aren't.
Eric Bomyea (22:36):
I was gonna use it as a PSA, but you should still
be cautious, still
Timothy Bish (22:40):
No. I mean, let's not take murdering lightly.
Well, I wanted like I just wannaspeak officially for the Circle
podcast. We are very antimurder. We do not advocate
murder.
So, okay, I feel good about thatnow.
Eric Bomyea (22:55):
So another fear, another part of catastrophizing
imagination, or the imaginationof catastrophizing was, the fear
of ghosts and hauntings. Andthat really scared me a lot as a
kid. And there came a moment, Ican't remember it, but it was
recently actually within thelast couple of years because I
(23:15):
even remember waking up in themiddle of the night and being so
afraid to even get up out ofbed. I was like, oh, like, if I
get up out of bed, the ghost inthe corner is gonna see me and
get me. Like, blah.
And, like, something happenedrecently where I was, like, able
to to, like, start to imaginespirits as benevolent and be
(23:36):
able to, like, have theconfidence to be like, oh, even
if I did encounter one, I'd belike, you know what? Now's not
the time, bro. Right? Like, stayin your spooky corner. It's
fine.
Right? Like, I'm not here foryou. Yeah. Right? And just,
like, being able to, like, havethat.
That to me has been the power anexample of the power of
manifestation to turn mycatastrophizing imagination into
something that I can like workwith and handle.
Timothy Bish (23:59):
Yeah. So Amir talks about having done this
thing. And I remember the firsttime that he mentioned it, it
blew my mind Because I did ittoo, and no one ever taught me
to do it. I just did it. So Isuspect that Amir and I both
felt a similar sense of lack ofsafety in our in our childhood.
(24:19):
But when I was a kid, I wouldsay a prayer. So our father,
hail Mary, a few other ones. Andevery time I said a prayer, I
would imagine, like, one layerof a force field being wrapped
over my bed because I was alsoafraid of ghosts. And there were
days when I needed a lot. I Iwas feeling very uncertain.
(24:42):
But it was I was imagining. Iwas creating in my mind this
protective field around me. AndI would argue, although it was
sad that I felt so unsafe, my Iwas utilizing my imagination in
service to helping me feel safeand ultimately falling asleep.
(25:03):
So it's an example of howimagination can be helpful.
Eric Bomyea (25:06):
Yeah. And it's kind of that imagination can be the
cause of that feeling unsafe,that creation of narrative, but
it can also be the remedy.Right? And that's kind of the
reclamation of imagination, ofreclaiming it that it's not just
something for children. It's notjust something that is for
(25:30):
creative people.
It's something for all of us totake control of our lives, to
take back some power. So one ofthe things that I was hearing
you say earlier about theauthority, like playing craps,
like going through our lives andtaking these chances and kind of
(25:55):
leaving it up to fate or leavingit up to somebody else is maybe
not the way to go about theworld, right? When we can use
our imaginations to take backsome of that power and start to
make our own path and have alittle bit more control out of
our reality.
Timothy Bish (26:15):
Yeah. I think imagination is part of how we
take control of our internal andexternal world.
Eric Bomyea (26:24):
So let's go back to the circles. Were there other
themes that popped up in either?
Timothy Bish (26:35):
I mean, the connection between imagination
and creativity came upfrequently. And also the idea
that I think particularly asmen, we were told to start to
let go of that part of us, youknow, probably mid childhood.
(26:56):
Like, the image that I got fromthe circle was somewhere between
10 and 14 years old. Most peoplein the circle had received the
messaging that this is not whatadults do. This is not what men
do.
Right? You were supposed to beserious. We're supposed to be
protectors, and we're supposedto have the answers and and and
(27:17):
kind of be sensible. Right? Andso there was a a relinquishing
of that connection in service tothis image.
But, you know, what'sinteresting to me is all the
ways in which imagination can bereally practically useful that
(27:38):
no one is talking about. So Ithink the world would be full of
more proficient lovers if wecould utilize our imagination.
If while I'm in the process ofmaking love to someone, I can
(27:59):
imagine how they might befeeling, what they might be
wanting, I think it it wouldserve in that way as opposed to
what I feel like I have seen alot of specifically in, when I
was when I was working withpatients and they would they
would, you know, this very rotewell, this is how this goes. You
(28:22):
start with you start with a andthen you go to b, and then then
from b, can do, like, c a or cb, you know, but then and then
you go to d and then you're kindof done and then, you know,
like, kiss good night. Right?
There's nothing wrong with that,by the way. But but what what if
you started thinking about someother stuff? And then so take it
away from lovemaking and romanceand all that and and bring it to
(28:46):
corporate America where you'resupposed to be have the answers
and hit the deadlines and bereally efficient, but also think
outside of the box. You know, wehear that all the time. Think
outside of the box.
Think differently. But You have
Eric Bomyea (29:00):
two days to do it.
Timothy Bish (29:01):
And you have two days to do it, And we told you
fifteen years ago to stop beingimaginative. So come up with a
really great idea, but do itentirely from logic and reason.
You know, it's it's it's wild.Twyla Tharpe, the famous modern
(29:23):
dance choreographer anddirector, who directed Movin'
Out, my first Broadway show,wrote a book called The Creative
Habit, and there are all thesedifferent exercises in the book
about, ways of being creative.And a lot of that is, like, sort
of look for things inrandomness.
It's a skill. And then gold canbe found. But if you never
(29:48):
practice it, you're probably notgonna be very good at it.
Eric Bomyea (29:52):
So looking things in randomness?
Timothy Bish (29:54):
Yeah. So, for example, she has this one
exercise that you can do, acreative exercise, and it was
this was for the perspective ofa choreographer and dancer, but
it you know, where throw coinsonto a onto a surface, a table,
let's say. And then, of course,the coins the coins will land
there randomly, and they mightbe different sizes, you know.
(30:17):
And then from that, start acreation. Right?
And so, oh, I you know, and whatcan I make from this? That's
imagination. If I have to starthere and I'm creating a dance or
what if I'm making a drawing ormaking a if I have to start
here, what can I where can I go?And then you might end up
(30:39):
somewhere you never would havethought you would, you know, you
never could have imagined at thebeginning, you just had to
imagine the possibility. Andthen you start and you're like,
oh, now I'm in a place I didn'tknow was even possible.
Eric Bomyea (30:52):
Hearing that, first thing that came to my head was
problem solving. And now I'mmaking the connection in my head
that I was told imagination is awaste of time. But what I was
told and what I was trained todo But you were told. I was
told. But what I realized wasthat it was actually kind of
(31:13):
potentially like a reframe oflike, imagination is for
children, but problem solving isfor adults.
Right? And so like, I problemsolve all the time and I'm using
my creativity and my imaginationall the time in my professional
life because I'm solvingproblems.
Timothy Bish (31:28):
Well, that's why we're having this conversation,
because we just have to reframeit. Imagination is an essential
component for real world thingslike problem solving that can
come in very handy, be superlucrative, can, you know, but we
have to be willing to claim itthen. Oh, so this is a part of
how I solve this problem.
Eric Bomyea (31:50):
Or like that that to me is just like how it was
like like a synonym. It waslike, oh, we're replacing. As
you grow up, we're replacing theword imagination and creativity
with problem solving. Becauseit's like, don't know, the the
action of what we talked about,like imagination being the
spark, creativity being thevehicle, right, to, like like,
(32:13):
bring that into to reality,like, it's the same process I go
through in in problem solving. Ijust don't call it imagination
and creativity.
I call it problem solving.Right.
Timothy Bish (32:21):
It's the same thing. Right. Well, and and then
it makes me think about the ideaof play. Mhmm. So I do believe
that imagination can includeplay, the ability to engage in
an activity without, a requiredoutcome for its for its own
(32:43):
sake.
And from that, what can what canbe revealed? So the thing I
guess the distinction I wouldmake is problem solving still
has a, like, a foundation to itor or a method to it. And I
think imagination can be reallyvital to that. I think there are
other kinds or other ways ofengaging imagination that can
(33:05):
exist without that framework,without that structure.
Eric Bomyea (33:07):
My graphic design hero, miss Paula Cher, who did
the
Timothy Bish (33:11):
Miss Paula Cher. Cher host.
Eric Bomyea (33:15):
Do a share
Timothy Bish (33:15):
counter for
Eric Bomyea (33:16):
every time you hear us do a terrible share
impersonation.
Timothy Bish (33:19):
Listen. Yours are terrible. Mine are excellent.
Eric Bomyea (33:21):
Oh, I found someone. Okay. You sound so
good. Okay. So Chad, fire up thethe, other recording studio.
We're gonna do an album next. Soher name was Paula Cher. Yes. So
she's the A graphic design guruof yours. A graphic design hero.
So Paula Scher is a partner atPentagram, a New York City based
(33:46):
graphic design firm, and she isthe designer behind things like
the New York City Public ParksProject. She also did the back
in the day, like her, like,claim to fame or her ways of
getting into things was she wasa designer for record label. So
(34:07):
she did the iconic Chicago albumcover with the flying guitar.
Timothy Bish (34:13):
If you Chicago the band, not Chicago the yeah.
Okay. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (34:15):
Chicago the band. So that iconic flying guitar
spaceship album cover. So shedid that. And she did the
Citibank. When Citibank andTravelers were merging, she did
the arch over the city.
And so that's who Paula Scheris. Anyway, so she has an entire
way of thinking about design,that there is play, which is
(34:39):
very much like what you'retalking about where there's no,
like, predestined outcome.You're just playing. You're
just, like, happily makingmistakes, just seeing what
things do. You're just, like,you're literally just playing
around.
And then there's
Timothy Bish (34:50):
With messiness. Allowing some messiness.
Eric Bomyea (34:52):
And then there's serious play, where you're still
playing, you're still doing thatprocess, but there may be more
of an outcome, right, anintended outcome. And that has
been a philosophy that I'veleveraged in my design career is
like, how can I be playful butseriously? Yeah. Mhmm. And then
bringing that bringing that tothe attention.
Timothy Bish (35:10):
You know, I find it really, inspiring. So every
summer, there is a theme weekhere in Provincetown called
Carnival. And it is sponsored bythe PBG, right?
Eric Bomyea (35:25):
Provincetown Business Guild, yep. Yes.
Timothy Bish (35:27):
And it has a theme, and when I give my
costume a lot of effort and Iand I and a lot of time, those
are the the years where I havethe most amount of fun. And I
think it's because of whatyou're talking about. You you I
use my imagination. So, youknow, interestingly, when the
(35:50):
themes really spark myimagination, that's also when I
tend to be like, oh, I have thisidea. And there have been themes
where I'm like, it's not it'snot sparking me in the same way.
It's harder. You know? So I getsparked. I get an idea. And
then, you know, I try somestuff, which I guess is the the
play.
And then once I have a clearidea, I I definitely move into
(36:11):
what did you call it?
Eric Bomyea (36:11):
Like Serious play.
Timothy Bish (36:12):
Serious play. And and serious play is I still
wanna look cool at Carnival. Iwanna look great in the parade
or or, like, along the paraderoute. And it is so much fun.
Mhmm.
So much fun. And, you know,anyone anyone who's listening,
you can go onto my Instagram ifyou want to see me when I was
the kettlebell. And I just Ilove that outfit so much. I was
(36:36):
having a ball the whole day. Areally fun time.
Eric Bomyea (36:40):
What was the theme that year?
Timothy Bish (36:43):
Oh, was Toyland. Toyland. So, I mean, so it was a
bit of a stretch arguably, likeMhmm. I was like, kettlebells
are They're your toys. They'rebig toys for big boys.
Yay. But I just made that up.
Eric Bomyea (36:54):
New merch?
Timothy Bish (36:55):
Well, I mean, big toys for big boys. Yeah. Yes.
Kettlebells are, and I lovethem. So it was a bit of a
stretch on the theme, but I hadit was probably my favorite
carnival I've ever done.
Eric Bomyea (37:06):
That was a really cool outfit. Thank you. It was
really fun. Thank you. Yeah.
Yeah. I think, like, bringing itall together now, right, is,
like, you were able to have aspark
Timothy Bish (37:18):
Boom. Play a little bit Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea (37:21):
Start to bring creativity into the picture, and
then move it into production.Right? Like, actual, like, like,
making this thing happen, thisspark of an idea that you had
and actually, like, bringing itout into the world, birthing it
out into the world.
Timothy Bish (37:35):
And in the process of doing it, I had to learn. So
I guess that's serious play,right? As I was doing it, I'm
like, well, this is working,this isn't working. I think
that's part of serious play,right?
Eric Bomyea (37:44):
Absolutely. I think that, like, how can we take that
into other aspects of our life?Let's talk about bringing it
back to men's work andembodiment practices now. Like,
what are some of the things thatcan benefit from more
imagination, more play, moreserious play?
Timothy Bish (38:02):
Well, one of the things I hear a lot, so in the
lineage in which I am trained,in the the men's embodiment
circle, we have the fiveinstruments. I could quiz you,
but they they are Bring
Eric Bomyea (38:12):
it on.
Timothy Bish (38:13):
What what are the five instruments?
Eric Bomyea (38:14):
They are attention, breath, visualization, sound,
and sometimes touch, so six. I'mI'm only gonna get a 90 on this
course. Goodness.
Timothy Bish (38:25):
I'm only gonna get 90. I think you only get an 80
because there are five.
Eric Bomyea (38:28):
I introduced the sixth one, touch.
Timothy Bish (38:30):
Yeah. But that's not really if you if this
Eric Bomyea (38:35):
is See my Brad energy coming online right now
where I'm like, buh buh buh buh.
Timothy Bish (38:39):
And movement or or posture. Right. Right. Right.
Right.
And so okay. So, movement,breath, sound, visualization,
and attention. And a lot of menhave come up to me, over the two
plus years now that we've beenrunning the circle and will say,
I have a really hard timevisualizing. I have a really
(39:00):
hard time visualizing. And Ithink that, first and foremost,
visualization can be differentfor different people.
So and I think in the in moviesand TV, we think of it as this
really crisp, clear, like,premonition, like, oh, the movie
trailer playing on the back ofmy forehead, and I just watch
it. It's that clear. And maybefor some people, is. And then I
(39:23):
think for other people, it canbe a little bit muddier than
that or a little bit, you know,more abstract. And they feel
like it should be that, and soI'm not doing it right.
And I'm like, no. You have tojust give it a try. But I I
realize now I'm inviting them topractice with their imagination
(39:44):
skills. And then also, you know,included in visualization would
be trusting what is coming andadding letting this physical
sensations of your own bodyinfluence these things, so it
gets a little bit morecomplicated. But, oh, partly we
might be having troublevisualizing because we were told
to stop.
Eric Bomyea (40:02):
I have a story on that. Because this was actually
one of the transformativemoments in my shamanic
journeying and visualization. Idon't know if I'm going call it
ability, but my capacity toallow myself to go there.
Because I was somebody that wasanytime the cueing of
visualization came up, I couldsometimes get stuck where I'd be
(40:25):
like, oh, I'm not imagining bigenough. I'm not doing it right.
It's good enough. And I think Ican take that back to being the
first time that I was graded foran art project. I used to love
art. I used to love to draw andpaint and do all these things
and express myself through avisual medium. And then you
introduce grades and I'm like,oh, there's a right way to do
(40:46):
this?
And so I think I took that intovisualization practices and kind
of having to work through that.And one of the practices that
helped shake me out of that wasfacilitated by Carrie Kalighi.
She brought us through thisreally beautiful journey where
she wanted us to invite inMerlin. And at one point, was
(41:10):
like, in my head, please don'tlet Merlin just be this classic
trope of an old man with a beardand a blue robe with stars and
moons on it. And that's whatcame up.
And it was like, I I initiallywas gonna fight against it. I
was initially gonna say, no,Eric, you can do better. You can
create a better visual of Merlinthan that. And then I said, no.
(41:33):
This is my Merlin, and I'm gonnago with it.
And I had such an impactfulexperience through that
allowance of saying, this iswhat this is gonna be. And was
it the most creative thing inthe world? Yeah. It was because
I created it in in myimagination and was able to,
like, be in that journey. Was itthe most unique and novel thing
in the world?
(41:53):
No. And I think that sometimesprevents me from, you know,
chasing creativity.
Timothy Bish (41:58):
So say that again. What Rephrase that. What stops
you from chasing creativity?
Eric Bomyea (42:04):
Something having to be novel, unique, the most
original, the most creative, thebest. Yeah. Right? Because,
like, again, I saw the classictrope of, like, Merlin from The
Sorcerer's Apprentice fromFantasia. Sure.
Right? Just like old guy, bluerobe, stars and moons. I was,
like, basic. It was a basic, youknow, visualization.
Timothy Bish (42:25):
So this is interesting because I do think
when people work with theirimagination, that there might be
a pressure that I have to thenimagine something very unique,
very interesting. You know? Andyou're sort of talking about
archetypal work. One of the oneof the powers of that is that we
all have a sense of what thisperson looks like, and that can
(42:46):
help us access it more quickly.Right?
So if you're imagining the king,I think we all maybe have a
general sense of, oh, he's gotlike a big, you know, coat on
and a crown and, you know,whatever. So we don't always
have to reinvent the wheel forour imagination to really serve
(43:08):
us. It sounds to me like youdrew on an idea of Merlin that
was really helpful.
Eric Bomyea (43:14):
It
Timothy Bish (43:14):
was. And it was clear because we've seen it a
hundred times.
Eric Bomyea (43:18):
And now when I do visualizations, I have so much
more allowance and I have somuch more just capacity to go
there to visualize. Wheninitially I struggled, I've
really struggled withvisualization, just like you
were saying. A lot of men whenthey come into this space, I was
one of those men. I was one ofthose men that had a really hard
time connecting with a visual.And I mean, it's still a
(43:41):
challenge just like some of themovement practices, just like
some of the breathworkpractices.
It still is a challenge for areason, but I have a lot more
allowance. I have a lot moreallowance to let it be what it's
going to be without thispressure of saying it needs to
be a certain thing or it needsto be better, it needs to be
novel, it needs to be unique.All these things that I had been
(44:03):
graded on and applauded forthroughout my career.
Timothy Bish (44:07):
Yeah. I think we have to remember that it's a
skill that we need to practice.And like learning any new thing,
it'll be hard and you'reprobably not going be great at
it right away. And visualizationwas never natural for me in that
sense either, and I feel like Ihave gotten better at it with
(44:30):
practice. But, yeah, there aretimes when, oh, I don't see that
clear picture, but I'm havingsome experience, and can I work
with that experience?
And so allowing ourselves that.You know, I was working with a
client one time, and this is adeeply practiced man, actually,
trying to get him to visualizebasically like microcosmic
(44:53):
orbital breathing, likebreathing down the front of the
body and up the back of thebody. And he was very attached
to, like, I can't visualize. Ican't visualize. And I gave him
a few different ways to sort ofhelp, but he sort of kept coming
back with, I can't do this.
I've never been able to do this.I can't do this. And at some
point, you think, well, thenthat's true. If, you know, if
(45:16):
you've convinced yourself youcan't, you can't. You're like,
you're right.
And I mean
Eric Bomyea (45:20):
That's the reality you're gonna create if that's
the narrative. That's if that'syour imagination telling you.
Right. Well, whether you
Timothy Bish (45:26):
think you can or you can't, you're right.
Eric Bomyea (45:27):
Yeah. It's I mean, we've
Timothy Bish (45:29):
all heard that. It's the same idea. And so I
think if you're wanting todeepen your capacity to work
with your imagination, deepenyour capacity to visualize, you
have to be willing to try, andyou have to be willing for it to
not be whatever it is you thinkis perfect for a while. Yeah. So
(45:49):
I keep thinking about Charmedand Phoebe from Charmed played
by Alyssa Milano.
We're referencing, you know, somany tags for this episode.
Alyssa Milano was the youngestof three sisters in the original
Charmed until Shannon Doughertyleft and then they got a
stepsister. And she had theability to premonition. And her
premonition came like like sortof cloudy movie trailers of,
(46:12):
like, what was gonna happen. Ifthat is the image you have of,
like, what imagination orvisualization is gonna be, then
you're probably gonna feel likeyou're not doing it right.
Eric Bomyea (46:23):
Going back to the the man that you were working
with Mhmm. Who was strugglingwith the the visualization of
micro orbital breath, like, wereyou able to have a breakthrough?
Timothy Bish (46:33):
I gave him tactile aid. So I asked him to run his
finger up and down his midlineMhmm. Tracing the breath to try
to bring in another sense to theexperience. So he said that that
was helpful, but he kept tellingme, but I can't do this. And so
(46:58):
it helped a little bit.
Eric Bomyea (47:00):
Yeah. I love that practice and that nudge because
then it's bringing on a coupledifferent senses. Because the
goal of something like that, forme anyway, is that like, oh, I'm
trying to draw my awareness tomy breath and consciously move
it in very specific shape orposition throughout my body. And
(47:23):
visualization can help me dothat by thinking like, oh,
there's a snake running up myback and a tiger running down my
front. I can start to use thatvisual to do it, or I can think
about it as a ball of light.
Maybe my breath is a ball oflight and I can follow that ball
of light down and then backaround. One of the brothers in
(47:46):
sharing circle mentionedsomething about growing a
unicorn horn as a way attentionto the third eye. If that is a
challenge, then can you imaginea horn growing out of your
forehead and bring on theimagination? Or if you're trying
to expand the breath into theback body, can you imagine wings
(48:09):
like sprouting out from yourshoulders and then being able to
bring the breath into that?
Timothy Bish (48:14):
And I say this a lot in the circles. You've heard
me say it many times, that youhave to also trust what works
for you. So if a visual so I'dnever heard the unicorn horn for
the third eye, but I I'mprobably gonna try it now. And
if it works for you, great. Andlet let what is working for you
(48:38):
be an indication of what worksfor you.
I mean, it's one of theprinciples of, HUNE.
Effectiveness is the measure oftruth. I hope I didn't misquote
that. But if it works for you,then it works for you. Keep
working with it.
Mhmm. So if you're the personwho needs to add some touch or
(48:59):
you need to visualize the breathlike it's smoke or it needs to
be a tiger one way and a snakethe other way or, you know, And
and this is the moment whereimagination really comes in.
There is no wrong answer if itworks for you. So, you know,
it's funny when I would I wouldtalk to my acupuncture patients
and ask them to tell me, youknow, how they were feeling
(49:21):
sensationally. And I would givethem some options.
And at the end, I would say,there is no wrong way to
describe what you're feeling ifit's what you're feeling. I
said, you could tell me it feelslike honey dripping down tree
bark, and that gives me moreinformation than the word fine.
Mhmm. But also, I have a senseof what you mean even though I
(49:42):
don't know what that feels like.So that so the people who had
greater access to theirimagination had greater capacity
to share their sensationalexperience with me.
And in so doing, serving theiracupuncture treatment and me,
making it easier for me to treatthem and making it more likely
that they get a better result.So it's a powerful, powerful
(50:05):
tool.
Eric Bomyea (50:05):
Bringing it back to something you said in the
beginning, this idea of cocreating reality, allowing our
imaginations to really help usto manifest the reality that we
want to see and experience inthis world.
Timothy Bish (50:22):
You have to be able to imagine it.
Eric Bomyea (50:24):
Yeah. So I really do think that imagination is one
of the most radical things wecan reclaim as adults. And it's
not just a distraction fromreality. It's not just to
daydream or anything like that.It's actually a tool to shape
reality.
And so maybe the more we canpractice it, the more that we
can imagine it for others too,for others to practice the
(50:47):
manifestation of their ownreality. So I am feeling
complete.
Timothy Bish (50:52):
How are
Eric Bomyea (50:53):
you feeling?
Timothy Bish (50:53):
I feel complete. Alright.
Eric Bomyea (50:55):
Will you take us out, please?
Timothy Bish (50:55):
I will. Let's close our eyes and take a deep
inhale through the nose andgentle exhale through the mouth.
And with deep appreciation andgratitude for the shared sacred
space and for any insights,awarenesses, or understandings
that were gained, that we nowrelease the archetypes and the
spirits that we called in. Andas we leave the circle, I wish
(51:18):
you all safety, community,brotherhood, and love. With
these words, our container isopen but not broken.
Uh-huh.
Eric Bomyea (51:25):
Uh-huh.
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