Rope and Radical Communication: Mr. R on Trust, Consent, and Kink

Curious about kink—but unsure where to start? In this episode of The Circle Podcast, Eric and Tim are joined by Mr. R, a rope rigger, dominant, and BDSM educator, to explore how consent, communication, and trust form the bedrock of safe and empowering experiences in BDSM and beyond.

Through real stories, thoughtful analogies, and insights from kink practice, they unpack how risk, sensation, and psychological safety are negotiated in scenes—and why clear communication is a form of radical care. From navigating power dynamics to understanding your own boundaries, this episode invites you into a world where consent isn’t a checkbox, but an ongoing dialogue.

Perfect for anyone interested in deepening their communication skills, exploring the intersections of sex and emotional safety, or simply learning how to ask for what they truly want.

Topics covered:

• How consent lives beyond a single “yes” or “no
• Why trust in BDSM must go both ways—and how to build it
• What rope play teaches us about sensation, safety, and surrender
• How shame can block self-expression—and how to reclaim it
• Bringing kink-informed communication into everyday relationships
• Creating space for curiosity, clarity, and mutual care

Photo credit for Mr. R's portrait: Roey Vilnai

Episode Transcript

Eric Bomyea (00:06):
Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go
all in on men's work, embodimentpractices, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. Ifyou haven't already, please be
sure to subscribe and leave us areview. Today, we're joined by
Mr. R, a rigor, dominant, andbondage educator dedicated to
building community througheducational and artistic
experiences with bondage, kink,BDSM, and engaging classes.

(00:28):
We'll explore the crucial roleof communication and consent in
BDSM and talk about how clearongoing communication builds
trust, ensures safety, andfosters deeper connections in
and out of a scene.
Tim, mister r, are you ready togo ball

Timothy Bish (00:43):
in? I am.

Mr. R (00:45):
Mhmm.

Eric Bomyea (00:46):
Okay. Well, first of all, welcome, mister r. We're
so glad that you could join ushere today.

Mr. R (00:50):
Thanks. Yeah. I'm really excited to be here.

Eric Bomyea (00:52):
Yeah. Where are you dialing in from?

Mr. R (00:53):
I'm joining you guys from Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Eric Bomyea (00:55):
Hi, Cambridge. So before we fully dive into
today's conversation, I justwanna take a moment to check-in
with Tim. How familiar are youwith the terms that I mentioned
in the opener? Rigor, dominant,BDSM, just to make sure we're
all kind of playing in the sameworld here before we go fully
in.

Timothy Bish (01:11):
Some of those words I feel very familiar with.
BDSM, I have seen. But do I havea deep understanding? I would
say probably not. Dominant, Ihave heard probably the the term
I'm most familiar with.
And then rigor, I have a senseof what that is. But I would
like to know more. And like mysense is, that's what we would

(01:34):
refer to, you know, in Broadwayshows when we would repel. Mhmm.
Like in the Pirate Queen, wewould do a lot of like
repelling.
And we would. Yep. That's thething we did. Because, you know,
we were, like, supposed to bepirates on Broadway, so we were,
like, swinging. And and so I I'massuming it's a similar way of
setting up and safety and andthings, but but but I'm eager to

(01:56):
learn what it means in thiscontext.

Mr. R (01:58):
Okay.

Eric Bomyea (01:58):
Well, why don't we start there, mister R? And we'll
just kind of do a lay of theland for, all of our listeners.

Mr. R (02:04):
Yeah. So, I use those terms in part to recognize that
not every encounter whichinvolves rope involves a power
exchange. So it isn't alwaysabout, being a dominant or
finding a submissive. Sometimesit's more friendly. And so I
think a lot of rope play cancome out of community, can come

(02:26):
out of friendship, can come outof, sensation play.
And so I use this term rigor toidentify both that I do
suspension with rope, whichinvolves rope on the body and
moving the body through three dspace, which includes hanging
and using gravity as a forcedownward. And, I also use it to

(02:47):
recognize that I'm not alwaysplaying the role of a dominant,
that I'm not always, using powerdynamics in the kind of play
that I like to play with.

Eric Bomyea (02:55):
So with that explanation, it does sound like,
you know, the the rigging thatyou are used to in Broadway is
is probably pretty similar then.So there's, you know, some sort
of attachment and some sort ofrope or mechanism to keep people
into a position, and there is anelement of safety also involved

(03:20):
there.

Timothy Bish (03:20):
Yes. I I would say in my experience, there was
always someone who was an expertin what they were doing and, you
know, the people who were beingtrained to work with these
apparatuses in whatever way. Soon one show, we did bungee
cords. Mhmm. And in swing, wedid the girls were in bungee

(03:40):
cords, and so we would kindathrow them.
It was almost as if, like, whatwould swing dancing look like if
there were no gravity? And thenin in the pirate queen, it was
more like rope because we were,you know, like, rappelling down
from a ship. You know? And therewas very clear procedures and
rules. And so and there was oneperson who was responsible for
that.
So they they had the final wordon how it all went and if we

(04:03):
were ready to do it or not. Andand safety was always the number
one thing for me. And for inthat in that circumstance, that
was always as soon as safety wasquestioned, everything stopped,
including sometimes the showwhere, like, the the stage
manager would be like, you know,sorry, ladies and gentlemen, we
have to have a pause. And theyput the curtain down and make

(04:25):
sure everyone is safe.

Eric Bomyea (04:26):
Yeah. And and and on that topic, mister R, I've
been in one of your workshops inthe past and, you know, I had
the incredible experience beingthere. And I what I recall and
remember so much about it, itwasn't about the the skills that
I I learned with rope. It wasabout the the structure of the
container that you set, thesafety that you so eloquently

(04:50):
talked about. You brought usthrough several slides on
communication, negotiation,consent, and really the safety
building.
So I would love to to startthere and and ask you about the
importance of all of this beforewe even get into the the acts

(05:12):
themselves.

Mr. R (05:12):
Yeah. I mean, I I structure my classes that way
because my feeling is, like,that's the thing that I want you
to take away. That's that's thethe meat and potatoes of all of
it. Like, if you leave and youdon't ever play with rope again,
the thing that I think is mostimportant is recognizing how we
manage risk together, how wehold space with one another, how

(05:35):
we how we talk about the risksthat we're undertaking because
nothing is risk free. Right?
Like, you're driving a car. We,I don't know, have Grindr
hookups.

Eric Bomyea (05:49):
Mhmm.

Mr. R (05:49):
And there are risks involved in all of that. There
are different risks, of course.But the the risk management and,
like, the clear open willingnessto communicate, I think, is is
the thing that I want people totake away. And it's also a thing
that I think is really lackingin a lot of the sex education
that many of us had, that manyof us experienced as, I guess I

(06:12):
had my sex education in, like,junior high and high school, and
then it was sort of, like, over,which is also weird to think
that it isn't ongoing and thatthis kind of conversation about
consent can't happen muchyounger, and that it can't I
know that that there is, like,the meat and potatoes, which is
often the putting somethinginside of something, and that

(06:34):
there's no wider conversationabout why we do this thing and
what varieties we mightencounter and how we center our
pleasure in in the practicebecause it's I don't know.
Somehow that seems likesuperfluous.
Just crazy to me.

Eric Bomyea (06:50):
Yeah. I really appreciate the the emphasis on
on safety and the admission ofrisk. Right? It's the the
exposing that in any situationthat we're partaking in,
especially in the realm of ofsex, sexuality, and then into
kink and BDSM, there is therewill always be an element of

(07:12):
risk. There is something there.
And I think the pureacknowledgment of that and the
vocalization of that is sopowerful. And then working
through the shared understandingof the risks that we're assuming
and then going into do youconsent to this is so powerful.
So could I hear from you yourdefinition of consent and can we

(07:36):
educate the audience about whatit is we're talking about when
we talk about consent?

Mr. R (07:39):
Well, I wanna backtrack just for a minute

Eric Bomyea (07:41):
Of course.

Mr. R (07:41):
About something which is about risk, and that is that
this thing is really risky andit's really dangerous and,
potentially life threatening.But this thing is really risky.
You know? Like, it's it's that'skind of the fun of it. And so to
ignore that is also to, like,lose some part of what it is
that I think is actually reallythrilling and allows us to step
outside of our normal everyday Imean, I'm here in my corporate

(08:05):
cosplay, as I said at thebeginning.
And to, like, step out of thisand and to inhabit that world of
risk is really fun and can builda lot of trust and can, I don't
know, just give you a kind ofplayfulness that that sometimes
is missing as adults?

Timothy Bish (08:25):
So I'm gonna jump in be maybe the beginner
question, but you just sort ofspoke to this thing is really
risky, and then you repeated itwith a smile. Right? So it's
like, it's a thing we need to beaware of, but also a delicious
part of it. But what are youtalking about? Meaning, like,
what is this thing?
Is it is it the relationshipthat's really risky? Is it is it

(08:49):
is it the working with rope inparticular? Is it the suspension
part of it? Like, I mean, I'mI'm coming in with almost no no
understanding. I assume some ofthe listeners are also.
So what do you mean when if youcould go a little deeper with
that?

Mr. R (09:06):
Yeah. One of the things or like, to to draw an analogy,
when you're like going for ahookup and you have those like
little butterflies in yourstomach and you're like kind of
excited, but it's also like Idon't know. You're like, oh my
gosh. Is this person gonnamurder me in their basement? Or
are we gonna have like reallygreat sex?
That is kind of this element oflike, oh, it's, like, kind of
risky. It's kind of, like, alittle bit dangerous, and it

(09:28):
also feels maybe, like, a littlebit wrong. And that's what the
spice of it is. That's the thingthat makes it, like, gives brain
tingles, I guess, and and the,like, the butterflies. And if
and sometimes when thosebutterflies are gone, it can be
hard to be like, oh, that like,I am excited to, like, do that
thing that I, like, I don'tactually feel nervous about.

(09:50):
So it's like a reinjection ofthat, maybe nervous energy or
that, like, anxiousness, whichcan also be a flip side of a
coin to excitement.

Eric Bomyea (10:01):
There's an inherent risk in many of the acts that we
do. And then when we introduceBDSM and kink, we are
introducing more risk. And therisk that can be introduced here
is there is the risk for greaterphysical and psychological harm.

(10:21):
Because we're starting to godeeper and into darker crevices
and in things that on thesurface could seem taboo, could
seem wrong. And so there is moreinherent risk than, let's say,
just a Grindr hookup.
But even that Grindr hookup,even if it's just, hey, we've

(10:43):
agreed that this is what we'regonna do. If you've never met
that person before, there isstill risk there. Right? And now
with if we're introducingsomething that is like we're
agreeing that we're gonna playwith rope, for example, now we
have additional risk that wehave to communicate and we have
to talk through and we have tobuild an agreement and consensus

(11:05):
on of how much we're gonna play,how are we gonna play, and
starting to create structuresand boundaries around that.
Because the act of rope, let'sjust stay with rope for a moment
here, can be dangerous.

Mr. R (11:20):
Yeah. Rope can cause nerve damage. Rope can cause,
bodily harm. There's carryovereffects where if you're tied up
and there's a fire. And sothinking through those things
together with a partner and howyou wanna manage those risks.
And, also, each tie and each waythat you put her up on the body
carries different amounts ofpotential harm to that person.

(11:44):
And, like, some ties areescapable and are much more like
a suggestion that one iscaptured versus another
situation in which you, like,are fully tied up and you could
not escape unless the otherperson helps you out. Those
things involve different amountsof risk, different amounts of
trust, different amounts of Idon't know. Just just, like, a

(12:05):
little bit of excitement, butalso nervousness. And the the
the things that we have beentold are wrong are often the
thing that we're sort of playingwith, this, like, taboo element
of, like, it's bad to kidnapsomeone.
But now you have someone whosays to you, I want you to
kidnap me.

Timothy Bish (12:23):
Mhmm.

Mr. R (12:23):
How do you deal with that? How do you, like, make it
okay, both for yourself, for theother person, and, like, also
legally? Like, do I make surethat the police don't get
involved?

Timothy Bish (12:35):
Or Well, this is interesting interesting to me
because I'm I'm thinking, itsounds a lot about
communication, right, which Iknow we're gonna get into. But,
what if you're a person who'scurious but has never been
there? How does someone how doessomeone consent when they don't
entirely know where they'regoing? You know, like, we're

(12:57):
we're Mhmm. Taking a hike.
Like, I have never done thishike before. I don't know what's
coming. So I'm, like so whatwhat what do you do in that
situation? How how do you meetthat person?

Mr. R (13:07):
Yeah. So you could set up a structure for communicating
during the the actual playitself. You could say like,
okay. Well, we're gonna startslow, and and you can tell me,
like, when it's too much. Andthis is how you'll tell me when
it's too much.
We could maintain very clear andnormal conversation. I'll
regularly check-in with you. Youcould also do it, in in

(13:31):
something I call, like, lab workwhere you're, like, actually
just, like, just doing the thingand that there is no, like,
anything else going on, whetherit's sexual or, psychological,
where it's literally just like,I'm gonna put rope on your body,
and you're gonna tell me howthat feels. And then I'm going
to suspend you from that part onyour body, and then you're gonna
tell me how that feels. We'regonna see if that thing works

(13:53):
and if you like it.
And if you, like, wanna comedown at any moment, like, we we
we end. Like, there's nopressure to keep going. There's
no reason to, like, not enjoythis thing because the enjoyment
is is the heart and soul of thiswhole why we're even engaging in
the risk at all.

Timothy Bish (14:08):
So this is really fascinating to me because I did
not know I was gonna this wasgonna come up, but I, was an
acupuncturist or am still anacupuncturist. And my first
session, specifically withsomeone who's never had
acupuncture, is very that. It'sI'm gonna I'm gonna talk to you
about all the things I'm doing.I'm gonna tell you, like, this

(14:28):
is my finger. This is the guidetube.
This is now the needle. Youknow? And it's a very
conversation. And I will tellpeople, I'm like, at some point,
I'm good at being really quiet,but this first session, I'm
gonna ask you over and overagain. How are you feeling?
How does this feel? How doesthis feel? To help them build
their own vocabulary about theirown physical sensations, might
be brand new to them, but alsoso that I'm constantly aware of

(14:51):
how do I dose this physicalmedicine to you? I'm kind of
shocked to to hear now. It feelslike a very similar thing is
happening.
And then I so I have to imagineas it is with acupuncture, each
person and each dynamic then isa unique snowflake because I

(15:13):
have this much bandwidth forthese things or or this person
likes or wants more. This personneeds the medium amount. You
know? And, like, I guess it'slike an art in finding those
those sweet spots, those, like,golden I don't know. Maybe
there's a real name for it.
Mhmm. That sweet spot. Yeah.That that that thing that makes
everyone happy. Right?
Because as the acupuncturist, Inever I never wanted my patients

(15:35):
to be uncomfortable. Like, thatwas never that was never the
point. Right? The point was giveyou the maximum benefit to the
extent that you can accept it.Because there are some
differences, obviously.
But Yeah.

Eric Bomyea (15:45):
And I think what would be interesting to to
continue to invite more peopleinto this kind of conversation
is, like, there can beconversation that's happening
during this kind of lab like,almost sterile conversation of
like we're just doing the thingand we're just checking in.
There's no other things at playright now. And it very much is

(16:06):
like just developing arelationship with whether it's
the needle or the rope orwhatever else it might be.
There's kind of like this in themoment experimentation going on
with an active exchange ofinformation going back and
forth, right? We'reunderstanding where each other's
experiences are.
What happens though beforehand,before we actually get into a

(16:28):
session, before we get into ascene, the communication that is
happening at that point, Ithink, also plays a really
critical role before we get intothe scene. So from an
acupuncturist standpoint, whatare the conversations you might
have with somebody who's like,hey, this is my first time with
acupuncture, and I have no ideawhat's going on. Like, what do I
do?

Timothy Bish (16:47):
I mean, I give them a a rundown. I don't wanna
do the whole rundown now. Mhmm.So I'm more interested in mister
R's rundown, but but I I'd likethese are some of the most
common things that most peopleexperience and that you can kind
of expect and give them know,with acupuncture, I tell people,
like, people think they have tocome lay on the bed of nails.
I'm like, that isn't

Mr. R (17:08):
what we're

Timothy Bish (17:08):
that isn't what we're doing. And so reminding
them the comfort, you know, andthen and then giving them some
examples. I'd be curious toknow, is it is it very similar?

Mr. R (17:19):
Yeah. I mean, we're we will often talk through, like,
what do we want to get out of ascene? Like or or what do we
wanna get out of rope? Like, whydo you wanna do rope? Is it that
you like the physical sensationand perhaps some of the
discomfort?
Is that you want zerodiscomfort? Is it about, like,
certain positions or, like, looklooking certain ways? And is it
about, like, rolling around onthe floor together alone? Is it

(17:41):
about being suspended? Is itabout being captured?
Is it about, like, wearingsomething which looks really
pretty and really beautiful onyour body? And then also saying,
like, okay. And then here aresome of the concerns that come
up, and here's how we'll managethem. So if you, I don't know,
have, like, patchiness on yourhands, that's often a a bad sign
or a sign that, like, somethingneeds to change. Not like patchy

(18:04):
numbness, is often related to anerve related something.
And so then I'll talk themthrough, like, what I'll do to
address those problems. And ifthe problem doesn't go away,
then we'll probably end the tiebecause it's not really within
my, my risk profile to, pushbeyond those sorts of, like,
nummy, tingly sensations. Thosethings can also be really

(18:26):
distracting in in a a negativeway where it's, like, not like,
oh, it's painful, and I'mprocessing the pain, and that's
kind of the point. But, like,it's so uncomfortable that
that's all I can think about isthat knot which is pushing on my
ankle. And I hate that, and Ineed it to change in order for,
like, anything else to, like,even be able to rise to the
surface of my perception.

(18:49):
So I'll just, like, talk throughsome of those things. Or if
there's specific ties, I'm gonnaput someone in there to mention.
Like, these are the places onyour body that I'm concerned
about. As the rope goes on, I'mgonna check-in with you. Also
know that it might take fiveminutes for me to get you out.
So I don't wanna hear from you,like, get me out immediately. I

(19:10):
mean, sure. Tell me that, ofcourse, like, at the very
minimum. But, ideally, you'retelling me like, hey. This thing
is, like, starting to bother me.
Is there something we can doabout it? Because it's much
easier to manage when you have alittle bit more of a runway than
this like, oh my god. If thisgoes on for thirty seconds
longer, I'm gonna lose my mind,Or I'm gonna, like, lose my hand
or you know? So it's it's likethat sort of setup and

(19:33):
communication.

Timothy Bish (19:34):
So this is making me think. I'm gonna take a jump
here. I was watching fear factoras, like, a boy in high school.
And I have a terrible fear ofspiders. And they what they did
was they put the thecontestant's head in like a
table with like a plexiglass,you And then they put I think
like 18 tarantulas, which areisolate, like solitary creatures

(20:00):
in together.
And they were like they said tothem this a similar thing. Like,
it is going to take us fifteenminutes to put them on, and it
will take us fifteen minutes totake them off. And I remember
that was the moment for me whereI'm like, oh, I couldn't like,
you know, when you're like, I'mabout to win $50,000, but I'm
like I'm like, if I freak out, Istill have to wait fifteen

(20:21):
minutes for you to and then Iwas like, that but and they did
not they were I don't know theywere having this conversation on

Eric Bomyea (20:27):
air. Goes back to just being honest about the
risks that we're assuming.Right? Like, that transparency
is so beautiful because then itgives the contestant the
conscious choice to say yes.They are they are more aware of
the risk.
They cannot be aware of all ofthe risk. None of us can ever be
aware of all of the risk. Buthow much transparency can we

(20:51):
bring into the conversation sothat the risks are understood?
So that when we say, yes, youcan put me in this box with 18
tarantulas, I understand alittle bit about what I'm
getting into. When I say yes, Iwant you to tie me in this
certain way.
Right? Like, I'm understandingif I'm tied in this certain way,

(21:14):
it will come with certain risk.It is gonna take us forty five
minutes to get into the ultimatepose. And then for if it took
forty five minutes to get there,it's gonna take a while to undo
it. Even with safety shears,it's still gonna take a little
bit of time to to to get out ofit.
And I think that transparencyand communication is so vital to

(21:36):
then be able to get to the pointof, do you wanna do this with
me?

Mr. R (21:40):
I also wanna say that with regard to risk and risk
profile, these are things thatcan which can change day to day.
So, like, one day you might be,like, feeling really spicy and
feeling really great in yourbody, in which case, like,
awesome. I'm, like, gonna shootfor the moon. And other days,
you might be, like, kinda sadbecause it was daylight savings,

(22:01):
and you're, like, sleepy. Andyou're like, you know, I really
I don't wanna wanna deal withthat today.

Eric Bomyea (22:07):
Rewind to me on Monday.

Mr. R (22:10):
Or, it might be that with one partner, you're happy to do
all kinds of things. With adifferent partner, you're not.
And so that's this, like, youget to choose, you get to
decide, you get to to beinfluenced by how you're
feeling.

Eric Bomyea (22:24):
Absolutely. We're allowed to change, and our trust
in ourselves and in others isallowed to shift. You know? That
trust building up to that trust,you know, can take time. It can
also be removed very quickly.
And so I do wanna take a momentto talk about that trust is
mutual. It goes both ways. Soit's not just about in the case

(22:48):
of acupuncture, it's not just inthe case of a patient trusting
you and your abilities. You alsohave to trust that patient that
they're going to communicate toyou proactively and actively
during the session how they'redoing. That's totally right.
And in a rope scene, it's notjust about the person being tied

(23:09):
that has to trust the persondoing the tying. Right? Like,
the person doing the tying needsto trust the person that's being
tied that, like, they're gonnacommunicate to me when they're
getting to these points. Becauseif I don't trust that they will,
then I'm also not in my fullexperience either. So how do we
get to a point where or what aresome of the things that we can

(23:31):
do to nurture our communicationto be able to develop the safety
and trust that is necessary toget into the fullest of these
experiences.

Mr. R (23:43):
One of the things that I find really helpful is, similar
as you were saying aboutacupuncture, that, like,
developing a language together,which you both share and
understand, I think is really anessential part where you not
only understand the risks, butyou can talk about them
similarly. This is why I thinkit's really nice to have both
people who like to be tied andpeople who like to tie in a

(24:06):
class together as you begin todevelop language around not just
what the risks are, but how todescribe them to one another and
how to speak about them and howto request changes or how to,
ask for adjustments or, how toexpress, like, hey. It's, you
know, it's I need, like, fiveminutes, or can you let my arm
rest a little bit, and then wecan go back to this thing? Or we

(24:30):
let it rest, and then maybe wedon't, but I don't know. So
there's that part of it.
There's also the continueddemonstration of care, which I
think comes from listening. Soif you I mean, the best way to
ruin someone's trust is to havethem ask for something that they
know that you can provide andjust refuse to provide it. Mhmm.

(24:52):
That's a, like, big red flag inmy book. I'm like, if you're
saying, hey.
I want you to do x, y, and z,and the person's like, no. Or
they just, like, pretend likethey don't hear you or other
other demonstrations of, like,uncaring for your expression, I
think is the best way to undotrust. But also the best way to

(25:12):
build trust is to, like,practice demonstrating readily
that you are listening and thatyou're ready to receive the
trust that someone is handing toyou.

Eric Bomyea (25:22):
That need to be recognized, to be heard, to be
seen, that it's a fundamentalhuman need. And especially if
we're gonna be playing withsomething that is potentially
risky, like, is so critical. Soif I'm expressing something and
I'm not being recognized,there's no validation coming
back in return, like, how can Iexpect to trust?

Timothy Bish (25:44):
Well, so I I wanna pause for a second because, you
know, a men's embodimentpodcast, a lot of the work that
we do is meant to help peoplecreate a conversation with their
own body and start tounderstand, like, sensations and
whatnot. And so, you know, in inacupuncture as the example, I

(26:05):
would ask people, you know, totry to describe their
sensations, and I would say,could you avoid words like good,
hurts, pain, fine? I saidbecause not that they're wrong,
but they don't really tell me alot. I'm like, so I'm gonna ask
you to something like, oh, itburns. It itches.
It's it's tight. It's pulling.You know, those sorts of things.
And the more a person is capableof doing that, the greater I am

(26:26):
able to meet them in a way thatI think gives them the greatest
benefit. So I'm curious, haveyou also noticed that?
And and if so, how do you bringpeople into a greater
sensational understanding sothat they can meet you by saying
not just it hurts, but, oh, it'sa pool versus, like, a a brush

(26:47):
burn versus you know? Because Ifeel like there's lots of things
to be like, depending on what itis, you might have a different
solution.

Mr. R (26:52):
Yeah. One of the things that comes up about this is,
like, you're tied in a positionwhere you're also sort of
twisted, and my body isdifferent than your body. And
you're saying my right arm hasthis pain. And I'm like, which
one's your right arm? Like, isit so so one of the tools I use

(27:15):
is to, like, actually touch andbe like, is it this arm, or is
it that arm?
Like, okay. Great. So and thenis it, like, running my hand
along their arm? Is it is it uphere? Is it down here?
Like, where is this thing? Is iton the front? Is it on the back?
Like, actually, like, providingthat input to that person, not
only gives them the ability tobe like, yes, no, you know, sort

(27:36):
of like the the eye doctor wherethey're like, is it one or is it
two? But it's way easier to justgo from like, is this thing
clear?
Like, yeah. It seems clear. But,like, is this one clear or is
that one clear is a much betterway to have that conversation.
So to, like, give the physicalinput of, like, where on which
arm is it? And then they mighteven be like, oh, it's actually

(27:59):
not on my arm.
I think it's on my chest. Andthen you'll, like, touch the
body and, try to find what thatthing is and and wait for them
to affirmatively be like, oh,it's there. Like, change that.

Timothy Bish (28:09):
So I'm hearing you say tactile aid is one primary
way that you help people buildthe sensational vocabulary.

Mr. R (28:16):
Yeah. And then the other one, I think, is through
experience because there's allkinds of ways that rope can be
painful. And, like, bad painful,not, like, good painful. Or, I
mean, these things there's sortof a porous boundary between
some of these. One of them iswhen rope slides on the skin, it
can be shearing, and that sucksa lot.

(28:36):
And the shearing can come fromit, like, sliding, like, along a
limb, or it can come fromsomething which is rotating. So
if your body is sort of, like,twisted, and something is
rotating against the skin, thatcan be really uncomfortable.
Some of the discomfort can alsocome from something which is too
tight, or it can be poorlyplaced. So some places on our

(28:57):
body like, I'm thinkingspecifically about the upper
arms. There are places wherejust, like, little tiny
differences make a whole worldof change.
And so, again, like, checking into find out which, maybe, which
band on the arm is the onethat's uncomfortable and then
adjusting that one, like, everso slightly up or ever so
slightly down. There's alsoways, like, rope is a fairly

(29:19):
dynamic element. So you can,like, pull the rope and push the
body away from to, like, createa little bit of space, and it,
like, shifts the the pressurepoint of that rope so that now
there's, like, a little bit morebreathing room on one side than
the other side. And sometimesthat will solve a problem.

Eric Bomyea (29:39):
And I love I love hearing about how we could get
to solving that problem togetherand the the opening up of our
internal experience to somebodyelse, right? Being able to
communicate and be in thisconversation with another person

(30:01):
to help them understand, oh, I'mexperiencing pain somewhere and
it's not a pleasant pain becausesometimes it can be a pleasant
pain if we're talking aboutBDSM. Like, that may be
something that I'm activelyseeking. Like this is now
getting to the territory ofdiscomfort and something that
I'm wanting to change. And soI'm letting you in on my

(30:23):
internal experience and you'rebringing in your curiosity to
help to reveal that.
And so that that is a a veryvulnerable and intimate act
itself of communication of,like, I'm trying to help bring
you into my inner world, and,like, I'm allowing you to be
there to then get to a placewhere we can fix this together.

Mr. R (30:45):
Another place where this comes up is not strictly
sensational, but is alsopsychological. Where people, I
find, don't have greatvocabulary to describe why they
like doing the things that theylike doing. So for example,
oftentimes people are like, oh,I'm I'm submissive or oh, I'm

(31:08):
I'm dominant. Okay. Great.
But, like, in what way? Like,say say more about the
motivations that draw you tothat thing and how that thing is
expressed or impressed, on eachperson. So, like, are you more
service oriented? Do you likehaving people do acts of service

(31:29):
for you? Are you more controloriented?
Is it that you I don't know. Youlike being objectified. Right?
Like, there are different facetsto submission and to to
domination, which can also lend,what I like about building that
language is that it provides foravenues of exploration. So it
isn't just that this person isgoing to, like, let me do

(31:54):
whatever I want to them becausethat is kind of boring, I think.
I wanna be able to, like, findthose little boundary conditions
and kind of, like, exert somefriction against them

Timothy Bish (32:05):
Mhmm.

Mr. R (32:05):
And to, like, figure out what the buttons are. Like, how
do I push the right buttons? Andwhen you have that language, you
can negotiate for that thing upfront, and it can lead to a
better match. And it can alsolead to the decision that, like,
yeah. Actually, I don't I don'tthink we have enough overlap to
to do this.

(32:26):
Like, my interest actually isn'tthere. So I'm glad we talked,
and I'm glad that we didn't harmeach other, and I'm glad we
didn't waste each other's time.And I I'm gonna go. I, like,
learned a great bit about you,and you learned something about
me, and that's that's where thisends.

Timothy Bish (32:42):
You know, it's, it's fascinating. I I do think
that we would benefit as aculture from a more robust
conversation about these things.The thing that's popping up for
me was that, you know, as aprofessional dancer, I had a I
was used to a very particularkind of teacher, which was a
very demanding sort of more andmore and more sort of thing, and

(33:02):
I felt that same thing in someof the sports that I would play.
And so when I was in my earlythirties at this gym in New York
City, I would interact withpeople, you know, in that way.
And some people really loved itbecause they were on the same
page.
It's sort of, like, hard nosed.Like, every workout's a
competition, and we're, youknow, we're kind of jabbing each
other in a friendly way. Andthen I I learned, I'm like, some

(33:25):
people really hated it. And andI remember the first time
discovering that and being like,oh, I I wasn't I wasn't trying
to be a, like, a dick. I was Ithought we were having fun.
And then recognizing, oh, well,the definition of fun is really
different and, like, contextual,but then there was never a
conversation. It sounds like thethe world we're discussing now

(33:47):
is maybe one of the beginningsof the conversation about that
and, like, where you can sort ofunderstand, like, these aspects
of ourselves. So, you know, Ithink there's a lot that I still
don't know in in this particularrealm, but, like, how exciting
it could be to decide, oh, well,I really liked it when I had a
demanding yoga teacher or danceteacher that I that I then sort

(34:10):
of satisfied by working harder.I wonder what that means. Right?
You know, like and and I havethat discovery. So I guess I'm
saying this for probably everyperson listening, you might be
able to discover these parts ofyour life where, like, oh, these
these dynamics have existed, orcurrently exist, and we might
benefit from having a nuancedunderstanding even if it's just

(34:33):
beginning with a, like, a niceexploration. Now how do we start
that in, you know, I'm gonnaleave to you two.

Eric Bomyea (34:41):
It's conversation. Right? It's it's like exactly
what we've kind of been circlingaround is like, what would feel
good to you? And what would befun to you? And what does care
look like to you?
And not allowing our perceptionsof what those things could be to

(35:01):
influence somebody else's. Ithink we've we've shared this on
the podcast before, like,there's there's different ways
that people receive care. Right?And so in a BDSM context, care
could be impact. It could be aspanking.
Care could be, I'm gonna tie youup and pretend like I'm

(35:24):
kidnapping you right now. Andfrom the outside, that could
look really scary. That couldlook really bad. That could look
like, oh, you don't care aboutthat person at all. When if done
in a really safe container andin a trusting, loving way is
actually one of the mostultimate forms of care.

(35:45):
I was actually at a partyrecently for Snowbound Leather
Weekend. And like many of thegay leather parties, I sometimes
get a little bored with thembecause what ends up happening
in a lot of these spaces, andit's no critique to the people
having these acts, it's just notmy type of act, is it's a lot of

(36:07):
sex. It's a lot of, fornication,anal sex, oral sex, and I'm just
like, I can get a blowjobanywhere. Right? Like, this
isn't interesting to me.
It really isn't. But what wasinteresting was the mommy and
her slave that walked in, andslave accidentally spilled

(36:28):
something on mommy's boots andhad to get down and lick them
up. Yeah, I see your face rightnow. Uh-huh. I'm like I'm like,
now I'm interested.
And I also, in that scene that Iwas witnessing, I saw the most
gentle, loving, caring affectioncoming from that mommy.

Timothy Bish (36:47):
Is that what interested you? Yeah. Or, like,
take a moment. That it was thatwas the thing more than anything

Eric Bomyea (36:54):
More than anything.

Timothy Bish (36:55):
Like this this deep, like, consensual care and
and shared shared dynamic.That's what fascinated you.

Eric Bomyea (37:02):
Yes. It was. I was like but I mean, the thing that
caught my interest was the act.And then upon studying it, I was
like, oh, there is something waymore going on here.

Timothy Bish (37:12):
So just to go back to your example then, with some
of the other things that werehappening at the party that you
mentioned, I was at that partywith you. Is it that you feel
like the other things were, alittle more transactional and
therefore less intentional, lessless communicated?

Eric Bomyea (37:28):
Yeah. That's that's definitely how I'm gonna
interpret it, is that it feltmore transactional. Didn't
didn't have that same level ofcare of, like, love, involved
and maybe not as muchcommunication. There maybe have
been plenty of nonverbalcommunication, but I don't know
how much, like, verbalcommunication was going around
of, like, hey. Here are mylikes, dislikes, limits, you

(37:54):
know, hard offs.
Right? Like, and here's my safeword. Right? There wasn't that,
you know, a lot of that kind ofconversation going on where
where, again, kind of welcomingpeople into the internal
environment. Right?
Welcoming people into what ishappening inside of me starts to
create a vulnerability, withinmyself. And that to me then

(38:15):
allows for deep caring and deepnurturing.

Mr. R (38:20):
One of the things that I wanna bring up in this space,
especially as we talk aboutcommunication and asking for
what we want and expressing howit's going, is to recognize the
role of shame and how we haveall learned, especially if we're

(38:40):
in any space where we'reperceived different or weird or
freakish or somehow what we dois non normative, that that
shame has a real silencingeffect. It can be really hard to
say, I want you to kidnap me. Bereally hard to say, I want you

(39:02):
to call me your slave, And whatthat means to me is it can be
really hard to, like, fullyinhabit that thing, which
everyone is like, oh, you'reyou're weird. Like that. That
when you do inhabit that and youfind others, you can inhabit
that with, and you feel like sofully seen in what it is that

(39:27):
you have imagined and wanted andneeded, that that that becomes
really magical.
Like, it really becomes, to me,a source of community that we
can all hold space for eachother's weirdness and, the
things which have been wrongwith us for so long, and the

(39:50):
things that, like, we are kindof afraid to show other people
who don't understand what thespace is that we cultivate
together, that we can show up inin a fullness that often we we
don't carry with us. I mean, mehere in my, like, corporate
cosplay. Right? I don't bringthis side of me out in work even

(40:11):
though at work, they're like,oh, you know, we, like, want
everyone to be their whole self.I'm like, sure.
But, like, I don't think you'reready for that.

Timothy Bish (40:17):
Yeah. But, know, it's interesting what you're
saying because, in the spiritualpersonal growth world and the
men's work world and all ofthis, this understanding of what
you want is a really powerfulquestion that a lot of people
don't really know. And one ofthe things I feel like I'm
hearing you say, which isexciting to me, it feels

(40:37):
healing, is creating a safespace into which I could try
something so I can discover if Ilike it or not. I know I will
tell you this example. There wasa person in New York City that
wanted me to play with, like,some humiliation.
I had never done that. Andluckily, I had the safe space
to, like, kind of do that. Itturns out that that isn't, my

(41:01):
heart's calling.

Mr. R (41:02):
Mhmm.

Timothy Bish (41:02):
But but I was able to I was able to have a moment
and an experience where I couldtry that. I think that's so
important because otherwise,it's like we can get stopped in
the well, I don't know. Right?Like, I I don't know. Well, how
can I know?
It's a little bit like goingwell, I don't know if this is
the right analogy, but going tothe ice cream shop, you're like,
oh, I haven't tasted thatflavor. Well, I won't know if I

(41:24):
like it probably until I tasteit. I don't need to have a whole
cone maybe. So they have alittle sample. This is like I'm
turning this into ice cream.
Yeah. Yeah. No. But you you takea sample, and you decide. Like
and I think we need that in,like, lots of areas of our life,
and this sounds like one ofthem.
So, oh, maybe I try something,and then I discover, oh, I
actually really like that, Ormaybe I don't really like that,

(41:44):
or I I want a different flavorof that. But you know? And and
so I think that that freedom toexplore, seems really important
in this world, but also it seemsreally important everywhere, to
me at least.

Mr. R (41:58):
Yeah. And and I also wanna say that in this space,
there's often people who haveknown these things about
themselves forever. I don'tlike, my my tying partner shared
that when he saw The Jungle Bookand Khan wraps up is it Khan?
No. The the snake, like, wrapsup one of the characters that he

(42:21):
like, he was, like, six orseven.
I was like, oh, that's like Idon't know what this feeling is,
but that is well, that'ssomething. Mhmm. Or when Aladdin
gets tied up and put inside thatburlap sack and then thrown in
into the water, which is, like,a horrifying moment in Aladdin.

(42:43):
But then he was like, oh, I havesuch conflicting feelings about
this thing. And then maybe as achild, don't know because you
haven't learned shame yet.
You say something about, oh,wasn't that tantalizing or
exciting? And people are like,ew. No. What? No.

(43:04):
Absolutely not. That was wrong.That was a bad thing that
happened to Aladdin. You shouldalways think that's a bad thing.
And then you're like, oh, theseare cards that I should hold
really close to myself.
And we start to put up these,like, little guardrails that
that protect us from the worldwhich wants to make us all
normal. And I think that many ofus are much more or much less

(43:26):
normal than than we think weare. Mhmm. I mean, there are
plenty of normal people, andthose people kind of freak me
out. I I will not lie.
When I find myself in a roomwhere, like, everyone is making
a lot of eye contact andeveryone is, like, really just,
like, normal communication, I'mlike, I don't I don't get what's
going on here, guys. This is,like, really strange to me.

(43:49):
Where are my freaks and geeksat?

Timothy Bish (43:51):
Mhmm.

Mr. R (43:51):
And so that's where this like, it it isn't just about,
finding this for yourself. Itisn't just about, like, sampling
and tasting, but it's oftenabout, like, actually building
space to do the thing thatyou've always wanted and known,
but have also always equallybeen told is wrong.

Timothy Bish (44:10):
So I I first of all, to say so much about that
that I love. First, I wanna saythe word normal has always been
sort of a, like, a bad word forme as I because I'm like I'm
like, I don't understand whythat's something I would wanna
strive for, you know,uniqueness, authenticity, things
I wanna strive for, but, like,normalcy feels like not not
that. But the the other thing II think I'm hearing is, like, we

(44:32):
have this really black and whitethinking and or our culture
contend towards very black andwhite. This is good. This is
bad.
And I think it's the saying, youknow, the difference between a
medicine and a poison is thedosage. And I think this having
a nuanced perspective of, well,I don't remember the scene in
Aladdin, although I do love thatmovie and a lot of the music. I

(44:54):
don't remember the scene, butyou're like, oh, well, maybe
there are ways of restrainingpeople that are, like, bad, but
it can exist on the spectrumlike so much of men's work.
Right? And you'd like, oh, thereare other ways in context that
that, you know, are notnecessarily that.
And allowing there to be morethan just yes, no, black, white,

(45:15):
red, green. You know, like, andexisting then in a world where,
oh, I can have a conversationthat that allows this to be
present that isn't that imagethat you have. I think that's an
important part of what we'redoing, this this conversation,
and I I I think we need more ofit.

Eric Bomyea (45:34):
And there's there's something too about, like,
starting to to to shift themindset. I love the idea of
poison versus medicine is basedoff of the dosage. That dosage
is also dependent on the person.Right? But when we try to
normalize everyone and we try tomake everyone the same, we try
to say this is the dosage thatis for everybody.

(45:57):
When the truth is, right, like,I may enjoy something that's
closer to what somebody elsemight perceive as poison or what
could be poison to them. Mhmm.Right? Or I might I might only
have a tolerance for less That,you know, less of that that
medicine actually is getting meclose to poison while that could

(46:18):
be the dosage that somebody elsemight need. Right?
So it's just allowing that eachof us are individuals and that
we each have different thingsthat can be healing or damaging
to us.

Mr. R (46:32):
Yeah. Humiliation comes in all forms and colors, whether
it's, like, small penishumiliation or if it's, I don't
know, using the f slur, if it's,calling someone fat or it's
making fun of their body or it'scalling them stupid or it's,
making fun of the way theydress. I don't know. These

(46:53):
things all have different, like,facets to them. And what I think
is funny or not funny.
The, like, surprising andpotentially ironic thing about
humiliation play is it'soffering it's offer empowering.
It's often empowering to theperson who who you're, like,
calling these names to becauseit helps them feel seen. And

(47:16):
helps them feel seen for thethings that everyone else thinks
they're less than. And so insome way, there's, like, this
humiliation thing which isrunning through all of this,
which is the seeing and making aa moment out of the things which
we've often hidden from eachother. But that I guess I find
it ironic because so often thehumiliation thing is perceived

(47:39):
as, like, degrading and and itis it is that, but it is also a
sense of empowerment that, like,now you get to recapture and
play with these things that haveso long been off limits.

Eric Bomyea (47:50):
Right. It's deeply caring. Like, that person is
receiving it as care. Even fromthe though from the outside
world, it may not seem that way,but that person is receiving it
as love and care and attention.

Timothy Bish (48:03):
Yeah. My friend, works in Findom, and she
explained and because I know herso well and, like, how caring
and she gave me that insight forthe first time about about the
service that it really was, andshe would do some humiliation

(48:24):
stuff, and and and I was my eyeswere were opened up. Oh, there's
there's real value and balance.You know, she she would
sometimes speak, you know, aboutwhat it was they were wanting.
Like, oh, this is a way ofbalancing out your life
experience.
Right? Which I really related tofrom, like, a yogic perspective

(48:45):
or an acupuncture perspective.It'd be like, oh, balance is
really super important.Ayurvedic, you know, like,
balance is good. Right?
And, like, so let's try tocreate that in all the ways that
we can.

Eric Bomyea (48:57):
You were gonna was that the story you

Timothy Bish (48:59):
were gonna share? No. No. No. I'm gonna share
okay.
We just shared another story. Sookay. So I was, when I was still
living in New York City, I was,like, creating a, a special a
special, excursion for my for mynow ex husband. And I, I have I
struggle with claustrophobia,and I I don't I took him to the
city, the Skywalk or it's whereyou get you walk on the outside

(49:22):
of a skyscraper in Hudson Yards.Do you know this?
Okay. Anyway familiar with Yeah.So I I took him to this thing,
and I'm like I was like, thiswas a big surprise. I was like,
this is gonna be great. And theyput us in these jumpsuits, and
then they put us in theseharnesses, and my claustrophobia
starts, like, really flaring up.
So I'm like, I I know and it'sdesigned this way. You cannot

(49:45):
get out of your harness untilthey let you out. And then they
clip you into this railing. Andonce you're in the railing, you
can't go backwards either. And Iremember standing there, and I
was like, oh my god.
This was my idea.

Eric Bomyea (49:58):
And I said yes to this.

Timothy Bish (49:59):
I was like I was like, I say I said yes to this.
I, like, did a whole surprisearound it. I paid for it. Like
and I was like, I don't know ifI can do this. And, like, I I
did end up doing it.
I was at the back of the I wasat the back of the the team. I
was like, Tim, you cannot freakout and then force everyone to
run through this course. Butit's like now I think in the

(50:20):
context of this conversation, Icould start to bring that.
Right? To be like, okay.
Well, I struggle with a littleclaustrophobia. Where can we
start? So it's there's power inknowing it. And then I suspect
power in someone who's like,okay. Well, I've been here
before.
Let's I think if someoneexplained, oh, here's a knot
that you could get out of. Oh,okay. Let's maybe start there. I

(50:41):
mean, but am I am I am I hearingyou correctly? Is that, like,
something that could aconversation that might happen?

Mr. R (50:46):
Yeah. And and it also, like, not all rope is bondage.
Like, sometimes it's about,like, feeling a tightness on the
body. And so, like, you candesign ties which are tight to
the body, but the body is stillfree to move. Or that you can do
a tie which just captures theknee, for example, so you, like,
still have full range of motionat your hip.

(51:08):
And maybe you just tie one legso there's, like, kinda wonky
jaunty, like, motion that youare able to do but, like, not
fully walk. And and so so thereI mean, it comes in degrees, and
you can sort of, like, titratethe amount that you give or
receive based on what what eachperson likes and wants.

Timothy Bish (51:27):
Yeah. Titration. Back to the yeah. Exactly. That
that sound it sounds beautiful,and it sounds like it allows for
an ongoing exploratory journeyand how great that is.
Right?

Eric Bomyea (51:39):
One of the things we we mentioned earlier was kind
of giving people the the headsup of like, it's gonna take this
long to get into it and thislong to get out of it. In the
New York City experience of thewalking on the skyscraper, did
they give you knowledge abouthow long it would take to get
the harness on and how long itwould take for them to get it

(51:59):
off?

Timothy Bish (52:00):
I thought no. No. They didn't. They did an
excellent job, but I I I didn'teven know I was gonna be wearing
a harness. I thought I had,like, a belt with, like, a
carabiner clip.
No. Which now that I think aboutit, it's like, okay. You know?
Of course, they're not gonna letme be able to unlatch, but, no,
there wasn't there wasn't any ofthat. And and I remember I

(52:22):
remember even though I had anunbelievably fun time, I still
felt relief when they startedpeeling me out of the harness.

Eric Bomyea (52:28):
So I'm curious though, like, you know, as
somebody that has been tied,right, and has gone through the
experience of, like, beingeducated about like, hey, it's
gonna take me about this long toget you into it, it might take
this long to get out of it, hereare some of the protocols,
right? Like, it helped me torest in something that I wasn't
super confident in at first. SoI'm curious, like, if they had

(52:50):
taken the time to explain thesethings to you, to welcome you
into the experience a little bitmore, do you think it would have
helped ease a little bit ofthat?

Timothy Bish (53:00):
Absolutely. And I feel compelled to say they did a
great job. All all of theireducation was about how we're
not gonna fall off thisskyscraper, which I think is
most people's primary concern.And I think they were, like,
less, like, about theclaustrophobia. Because the
thing is I could have run amarathon in this outfit.
I just could not have taken itoff. Mhmm. You know? But, yes,

(53:20):
they knowing that would havebeen really helpful.

Eric Bomyea (53:23):
And so they were helping to to help ease your
nerves around some of the riskthat was involved in this. I
mean, the big risk, is like youcould fall off the side of this
building. Right? So we're goingto educate you about how we're
mitigating that, but there areother risks that they may not
have been including you into.

Timothy Bish (53:42):
That's right. Right. That's right. Yeah.

Eric Bomyea (53:44):
Mister R, I have one last topic to explore with
you, and that is how we cantranslate the robust
communication that we learn inour BDSM and kink play, and how
do we translate that into oureveryday lives. And so I want to
just first and foremostcongratulate you on your recent

(54:06):
marriage.

Mr. R (54:07):
Oh, thank you. Congratulations.

Eric Bomyea (54:10):
And how have you, over the course of your years in
relationship, been able to usewhat you've learned through BDSM
and kink and and developingthese communication tools, how
have you been able toincorporate them into your
intimate personal relationships?

Mr. R (54:31):
Yeah. One of the big things that I take out of this
experience is taking a minute toor, like, building a ritual
around communicating with oneanother, setting aside a time
where you're gonna check-in. Andyou might even be like, okay. I
feel totally crazy. I know thisis crazy, but I'm experiencing

(54:55):
jealousy about whatever this andI know that it's mine.
I know that I, like, I'm the onewho has to deal with this,
that's gonna help me to tellyou. And I don't really expect
you to do anything with it, butI need to just, like, let it
out, and I need you to hear it.And building trust that, like,
I'm going to say some thingsthat, like, I even know are kind

(55:17):
of crazy. And I'm using crazyhere to be like, I know that
it's whatever. That maybe you'llperceive that I'm blaming you,
or maybe, this is not the waythat I normally feel, and yet I
still feel this way.
And but but, like, also, inorder for me to to manage, I
have to just I have to say it.I'm gonna say it, and I hope

(55:37):
that you just listen and receiveit. And I know that I don't want
you to change. I don't want youto, like, act any differently. I
don't think this is your fault.
But something about me justgiving the words to this is
going to is gonna help. And thenalso, perhaps you'll identify
that this in this circumstance,the jealousy is actually rooted

(55:59):
in some need that I have that wecan work together on solving. So
if I'm, like, feelinguncomfortable about you with
another partner and I'm feelingjealous about this person, the
need is like, well, I actuallyneed you to just, like, reassure
me that I'm still important toyou. Even though, like, I I know

(56:20):
that I'm still important to you,but, like, I I just, like, I
guess, I just find you to saythat. Or setting aside time to
be like, oh, you know, we'regonna, like, do this thing.
I don't know. We're gonna cook ameal, or we're gonna friends
over. You seem, like, a littlebit anxious about that. Like,
what what's going on? I'm like,well, I just don't want my
friends to think x, y, and zabout the way we live or

(56:43):
whatever.
And so I think that ritual isreally helpful. And then through
that ritual, practicinglistening and not bringing those
things up in the future, notlike throwing it back at
someone. Right? So, like,holding space for it in that

(57:05):
moment and allowing it to kindof wash away, to go away, to
dissipate because that's kind ofthe the goal of sharing is,
like, I'm gonna, like, let thisout of me, and I don't want it
to go into you. I actually justwant it to just, like, float
away forever.
But some for some reason, Idon't know why, but, like, as a

(57:25):
human being, it's nice forsomeone else to witness that
thing happen. Sort of I said theritual part of it, the, like,
speaking to whatever the thefeeling is that you're having,
and even identifying that, like,you you don't expect anything of
your saying this. And then theother thing is to recognize

(57:48):
that, like, your wants and needsare different from someone
else's. And maybe I'm goingdown, like, a little bit of a
polyamory rabbit hole here, but,like, my wants and needs are
different than your wants andneeds. And my expression of
those wants and needs, which youdon't have or match, is not a
judgment.
It is something genuine ofmyself and that you can

(58:16):
demonstrate caring for me byallowing me to experience and to
seek and to find an expressionof those wants and needs
regardless of your involvementin those wants and needs.

Eric Bomyea (58:29):
It's really, really beautifully said. And I heard a
lot about being in a trustingrelationship to be able to be
seen, to be heard, to berecognized, to be held with
compassion, and to have that bemutually given, right, in kind

(58:50):
of this this dance that goes onbetween the emotions between two
people or more people. And Ithink that it's it's really
beautifully connected to a lotof what we discussed within BDSM
and kink. Right? It's it's it'sallowing people inside of our

(59:11):
experience.
It's being vulnerable to sharewhat it is we might be wanting,
what it is we might be needingin certain circumstances, and
trusting that somebody else canhold that with us and play with
it with us and allow it to beexpressed out of us so that it's

(59:32):
not held by ourselves or held bythe other person. We can kind of
be in this dynamic together. Andthen how to translate that into
our intimate everydayrelationships. It's just really
hit me in my heart. Was reallybeautiful to hear.
So I appreciate it. With that,how are we feeling? Are we are

(59:56):
we nearing feeling complete? Arewe complete?

Timothy Bish (59:58):
I feel complete. Mister r?

Mr. R (01:00:01):
We didn't answer your question about consent and what
consent looks like. But I thinkthat the the bigger conversation
that we had around communicationrecognizes that consent is not a
moment, and it's not a questionthat we answer when we move away
from. But there's actually thefabric of the thing that we do,

(01:00:23):
That that the constantreaffirmation, the constant
continued participation isitself the thing which is
consent. Right? It's not like inthat scene between the mommy and
her slave, The slave could havegotten up and wandered away and
been like, no.
I'm not licking your boots. Butin in their performance of that

(01:00:44):
moment, they reaffirmed theirtheir consent to that ongoing
relationship and dynamic. Andthat, to me, is the essence of
consent. We can get therethrough a variety of questions
and through, examining exactlywhat it looks like and and how
it's freely given or it can berevoked at any time, that it's

(01:01:07):
informed, that it'senthusiastic, and that it's
specific. And I also wanna notethat, like, consent can be
nonverbal, that that in a lot ofqueer and gay male spaces, there
is a different consent languagethat that is built and is held
within the community, which isdifferent from other communities
that isn't less good.

(01:01:28):
I think that it comes with otherrisks that are involved and the
potential for greatermisunderstanding because there's
potentially less clarity,especially as we grow away from
some of these consent models.But that those consent models do
still exist, and they are stillvaluable to continue to, like,
remind ourselves of, like, whatdoes consent while cruising look

(01:01:52):
like? What does consent whileplaying in a dungeon look like
or at an orgy? What does thatlook like? And that, again, the,
like, continued participationand the space provided for
someone to withdraw is anessential part of this.
And that that's that, like,ongoing continued communication,
which serves as the the momentto moment experience where

(01:02:14):
consensus or, like, theelectricity within within that
thing.

Eric Bomyea (01:02:17):
It's really beautifully said. And
definitely, Fodder, for ongoingcontinuous conversation with
with you. I'm so grateful tohave you as part of the circle,
to have had you in my life. I'velearned so much every time we
talk, and I always always justhave such a, like, warm, fuzzy

(01:02:40):
feeling in my body when we getto connect. So I'm very
appreciative of you being herewith us.

Mr. R (01:02:44):
Thank you so much.

Eric Bomyea (01:02:44):
Thank you.

Timothy Bish (01:02:45):
Yeah. Thank you for being here.

Eric Bomyea (01:02:46):
With that now, do you do you now feel complete?
Yeah. Alright. And, Tim, willyou take us out, please?

Timothy Bish (01:02:52):
Absolutely. Well, let's close our eyes, feel our
bodies again in our seat and ourfeet on the floor if they are
there. And it is with deepappreciation and gratitude for
this shared space, the sacredspace of inquiry, exploration,
insight, and awareness. That aswe leave this circle, I wish

(01:03:13):
everyone listening, brotherhood,community, connection, and love.
And with these words, ourcontainer is open but not
broken.
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.