April 24, 2025 • 53 mins
Projection is a fundamental yet often unnoticed aspect of human experience. We see in others what we cannot yet recognize in ourselves, whether in moments of conflict, admiration, or even within the mysterious landscapes of our dreams.
In this episode of The Circle, Eric Bomyea and Timothy Bish welcome dream worker Gregory Ganymedes to go all in on the nature of projection—how it operates in our subconscious and how it influences our waking interactions. Through an insightful conversation, they explore:
- Understanding Projection: How our unconscious mind externalizes unrecognized aspects of ourselves onto others, shaping our relationships and perceptions.
- Projection in Dreams: The role of dreams in revealing hidden truths about our inner world, and how dream analysis can uncover unresolved emotions and patterns.
- Everyday Projection: How projection influences communication, assumptions, and reactions in daily life, particularly in the context of men’s work and personal development.
- Reclaiming the Self: Tools and practices for recognizing projection as it arises and integrating these reflections for deeper self-awareness and emotional maturity.
Join us as we navigate the terrain of the unconscious with Gregory Ganymedes, reframing projection from an unconscious defense mechanism into a powerful tool for self-discovery and transformation.
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Episode Transcript
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Eric Bomyea (00:05):
Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go
all in on men's work, embodimentpractices, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. IfIf you haven't already, please
be sure to like, subscribe, andleave us a review. Today, we're
joined by Gregory Ganymedes, adream worker and facilitator
focused on exploring theintersection of queer identity
and the subconscious throughdreams. He leads the Queer Men's
(00:28):
Virtual Dream Circle, a spacewhere queer men gather to share,
interpret, and engage abouttheir dreams as a tool for self
discovery and healing. Today,we're talking about projection
and how it shows up within ourdreams and our everyday life.
Tim, Gregory, are you ready togo all in?
Timothy Bish (00:43):
I'm ready.
Gregory Ganymedes (00:45):
Ready as ever.
Eric Bomyea (00:46):
Alright. Let's do this. So I'm gonna admit, I'm a
novice here. So when we talkabout projection in our dreams
or even projection in oureveryday life, like, what are we
talking about, Gregory? Can yougive us a a couple sentence
overview of what projection is?
Gregory Ganymedes (01:02):
Yes. Of course. And from this is my own
understanding, that when we'retalking about projection, we're
talking about something that wedon't know we're doing. It is
completely unconscious. Thereare behaviors.
There are stories, histories,people, personas in our lives
(01:26):
that we consider are in linewith who we are and attributes
of ourselves that we say areours and things that we say are
not us and not ours. And when itcomes to projection, this is
when we see other people outthere in the world, close
(01:47):
relationships, parasocialrelationships, and everything in
between. And we have a verystrong feeling response to the
behavior that the appearance ofa person, any sort of thing that
is presented in front of us. Itelicits this very strong
response.
Eric Bomyea (02:07):
So it's like a reaction to something that I'm
seeing. And maybe a subconsciousthing that I'm not even aware of
it, but there's a stimulus. Andthen all of a sudden I have a
reaction and I have a feelingfrom that stimulus.
Timothy Bish (02:22):
Yeah. But I'm curious. I'm sorry. I'm gonna
the reaction is the is the theawareness that the projection is
happening. Is the projection thejudgment?
Like, in the example of you seesomeone dressed a certain way,
which part of the which part ofthat is projection?
Gregory Ganymedes (02:39):
Great question. The part that is
projection is the part that youdon't know that you yourself
don't want to own that is a partof you. For in the example of
someone who is wearingsomething, like you said, Tim,
that we find is hideous oroffensive in some sort of way.
Eric Bomyea (03:00):
Let's use my maroon sweatshirt.
Timothy Bish (03:02):
It's not hideous, but but but like, let's just
say,
Eric Bomyea (03:04):
like, we're talking about my maroon sweatshirt. You
you're walking down the streetand you see my maroon
sweatshirt.
Gregory Ganymedes (03:09):
Or let's just say perhaps I'm walking down the
street. I see you in your maroonsweatshirt, and I say, what is
that grown man doing wearingthat shade of color out here in
public where there are childrenaround? I don't want my son. I
(03:30):
don't want my kids, my nephew tothink that maroon is an
acceptable color for a man towear. So the projection there is
anti feminine, super masculinegender role bullshit that we're
(03:50):
always dealing with, and weinternalize it so much.
And we feel self righteous, thatwe feel like I need to correct
that or I need to point out thaterror. I need to point out the
speck in my neighbor's eye.Whereas there's a huge log in my
eye, which is I'm notcomfortable. I'm not secure
enough with my feminineattributes that I would be
(04:13):
willing to wear a maroon hoodieout there on the street.
Timothy Bish (04:16):
The idea is that we're that we are potentially,
and I I suspect most of us are,walking around with these
preconceived notions and ideas,many of which were handed to us.
And then if we believe themYeah. If we believe them so
fully that they are sort of theprograms running in the
background that we're not evenaware of because they're so
intertwined into our experience.And so I take that, and then I'm
(04:38):
moving through the world. And soI start to have feelings and
opinions and judgments about theworld around me based based on
these things.
So I could say, I think maroonis a bad example because I it
looks so good. And, you know,but, like, but, like, if maroon
were to not be, I'm basicallyletting this program run-in the
(04:58):
back of my mind that says maroonisn't for men. And then my
projection is you shouldn't bewearing that. It looks bad on
you. It's inappropriate here.
All of those things are, like,the projection based on this
program running. And if I'munaware of the program, it just
feels like I'm defending whatI've been told is the status
quo, like the like the sort ofunderstood agreement that we all
(05:21):
have even though none of us everreally agreed to it. Is that am
I hearing you right?
Gregory Ganymedes (05:25):
You nailed it. And, of course, that's just
one form of it. These things canbe as big as gender norm stuff,
and it can be very trivial stuffas well, not nearly as big in
social as what we were just kindof, raising up right now, or it
(05:45):
could be even bigger, when itcomes to politics, religion,
race, that stuff. So it it runsthe gamut. But, yes,
essentially, these sorts ofproblems that we should be
dealing with in ourselves thatthe other person out there had
like, they're not part of it atall.
(06:07):
It's purely our own stuff thatwe're putting onto it. And it
could be a stranger on thestreet that is subject to our
projection. It could also bepeople who are very intimately,
involved in our lives that we'reprojecting onto and most of the
time it is the people who are,you know, We're seeing day to
day our family, our friends coworkers and of course those
(06:30):
were, lovers and and spouses Hotbed for projection right there
and also with that in mindprojection is not always a bad
thing. We project things that wedon't feel are part of ourselves
or that we are not us that arevaluable, or that are really
(06:50):
attractive, and we will projectthat onto another person.
Timothy Bish (06:54):
Can you give an example of that what sounds like
a more beneficial version ofprojection?
Gregory Ganymedes (06:59):
Sure. One of my favorite queer out there
among many, and please do notfeel slighted if I don't mention
all of them. But one of them whois at the forefront of my mind
right now is Lil Nas X. He justreleased some new music, and I'm
(07:19):
just gushing over it and I'mbopping to it. He released a
song called hot box, I think andThis person to me, like, he
could release literallyanything, and I'd be like,
that's a bop.
I will love whatever he comesout with. I will love whatever
he's wearing. I will lovewhatever he has to say no matter
(07:41):
how controversial it is justbecause I'm like, I admire this
person. He's so talented. Hesays exactly all the things that
I wish a lot of young queerartists would say.
And so, like, these are, like,projections of mine because,
like, of course, this person isa fallible person. Of course,
(08:02):
he's gonna do things that arebad, but I'm just, like, putting
him on a pedestal.
Timothy Bish (08:06):
So I wanna I wanna break this down even further if
you're open to it. I feel likethe he's so talented. He's so
admirable. That is theprojection, but it is coming
from, you were saying, this thisconception in your mind. Right?
So can you talk about, like,what you're believing that leads
you to admiration or orrecognition of talent or any of
(08:30):
these things?
Gregory Ganymedes (08:31):
Oh my god. Yeah. You're asking the great
questions. So I happen to be amusician myself. I'm a
classically trained musician.
And so these are the sort ofthings that I aspire to, a level
of artistry that breaks themold, that gets people's
attention, that really putssomething into the world that
(08:53):
hasn't been there before or isunique in that sort of really, I
don't know, impactful way.That's something I've always
strived to do when I'mperforming either whether it be
like in someone's living room oron a stage somewhere. And so I
(09:14):
think I have my own insecuritiesabout the level of success that
I've had as a performer. I knowby listening to the podcast
that, you guys are involved inperforming arts as well, so
that's cool. You might know it.
Catch on. Pick up what I'mputting down. So I think that's
part of the projection tour.It's like, have this idealized
(09:35):
version of what I always wantedto be, what I always wanted to
do. And then when I see someoneout there doing it, of course, I
could feel jealous about it, butthere's also a sort of project a
positive projection where I'mlike, this person can do no
wrong because they're justgiving it all to me that I've
always wanted.
Timothy Bish (09:50):
I think that's so beautiful. So just I feel like I
feel like so there's thisthere's this idea of of your
talent, what you were wanting,and and now it sounds like you
you have a lot of things youcould project. So you were
projecting admiration, for histalent, but you could also have
projected jealousy, envy. Youknow? So so that's I think
(10:11):
that's helpful to understandthis, this idea of, like, this
underlying belief and then andthen what we bring to our
experience from that belief.
Is that what you're alsohearing?
Eric Bomyea (10:20):
I am. There's within that projection as well.
So by us projecting admirationonto somebody, that is
potentially helping us toelevate ourselves to say, Oh, I
admire this person so much,they're now inspiring me, so I
now can uphold that samestandard for my own craft. If it
is music, right? If I'm admiringa musician, I can leverage that.
(10:43):
I can leverage that projectionas a motivation to get better at
my own craft. But at what pointdoes that projection of
admiration also become thepedestal status where we've now
put this person on the pedestaland now what if they do wrong?
Right? Like, how does thatprojection that was maybe a
(11:05):
positive in trying to build themup and building up ourselves now
become a potential negative?
Gregory Ganymedes (11:10):
Yeah. I think the key thing here is that so
much about projection isunconscious. The fact that I
could pull out an example likethis and just be like, this is
what's happening. That's veryconvenient for me to be able to
do that. However, I'm sure thereare examples that I can't
provide you because I just don'tknow that I'm doing it.
Timothy Bish (11:29):
I I almost I almost apologized when I said
that because, like, based on thedefinition of projection that
we've come up with so far, Irealized I'm asking you to
identify for us right now inreal time a thing you might be
unconscious of.
Gregory Ganymedes (11:41):
Yeah. Yeah.
Timothy Bish (11:43):
But So I'm sorry about that, and thank you for
being able to, do it.
Gregory Ganymedes (11:47):
But I
Eric Bomyea (11:47):
think this is a beautiful moment now of
recognition of the work that youhave done to be able to become
conscious of these projectionsand then ask the question, is
this serving me? Is thisconscious if I'm bringing
awareness to this projection,which had been a subconscious
behavior, like, by me bringingawareness to it, I'm also
bringing curiosity andquestioning, is this a positive
(12:11):
or a negative projection for meright now? And so I'm curious
about, like, what are some ofthe ways in which we can become
a little bit more aware of theseprojections?
Gregory Ganymedes (12:21):
Thank you. And thank you for, like, tapping
into that because, yeah, this iskind of complicated, and you can
only talk about what you know. Ionly know what I know. And
there's so much going on thatfrom my day to day, that's
happening in the background, andI just have no idea about it.
And sometimes you just gotta getsmacked in the face with it.
(12:42):
So how that happens? In mydefinition, my very rambling,
winding definition about whatprojection is, there's the very
strong feeling that comes fromit. I think that's a telltale
sign that there is a projectionhappening. Again, it could be an
(13:04):
overwhelming feeling of lust ordesire where you just see
someone and you're just, like,gobsmacked by just how much you
want them. Like, you just wantto possess them and have them
all to yourself.
And it just you're just kind ofknocked out. Like, nothing else
(13:27):
matters. You just see this thisperson and and you're just at a
loss. Like, the whole worldstops. That's actually kind of
projection because the feelingis just so much.
Eric Bomyea (13:40):
I think about the example that we were using
about, like, you know, myhoodie, maroon hoodie, and,
like, the the kind of, like,persona that you put on about,
like, you're that person whosees me walking down the street
and is like, how dare you wearmaroon? It's like, when you were
talking about that, I could feelwhat self righteousness feels
like or righteousness feels likein my body. And it's like this
beam in my forehead. So now I'maware that if I'm projecting
(14:04):
righteousness out into theworld, I have a feeling that
might be associated with that.So I'm like, oh, like, so now I
can see, like, as I'm goingabout my day, like, where there
might be that projection comingup.
Gregory Ganymedes (14:17):
I think the beam coming out of your forehead
is quite an apt, vision for thatbecause you could have a beam
coming out of the top of yourhead, which goes straight up to
a transcendent world. However,your beam is coming right in
front of your forehead and who'sout there in front of you
receiving the ends of that? Beamthat's right in front of your
face. Yes, if you see someone orsomeone says something sometimes
(14:44):
That just really gets to you. Itgets under your skin and
sometimes, you know, we all havethose moments where it's like, I
don't know what it is about thatperson, but they just rubbed me
the wrong way.
Of course, that's like yourintuitive function. That's
that's something in yourpsychology that's saying, I
can't quite put my finger on it.However, I'm sensing something.
(15:08):
I'm picking up something that Ijust can't quite get on board
with. That is also a little bitof of a projection happening to
there.
Timothy Bish (15:17):
It seems to me based on what you just said, and
I I I can feel myself gettingexcited thinking about this
because I I think intuition isso interesting and powerful. It
feels like one way I could orone could deepen their intuition
and start to trust it more is ifthey are able to make if they're
able to discern betweenintuitive pings and projections.
(15:38):
So it sounds like the more workwe do to recognize so I I have
to imagine based on their naturethat we might not ever be fully
aware of all of our projections.But, like, just even being
mindful, like, oh, these existfor me and everyone else, and I
should look at them, then Imight be able to make a
distinction between am Iprojecting based on a previously
held belief, or is this anintuitive ping? Because I do
(16:01):
think that person who rubs usthe wrong way is sometimes, you
know, this idea like, mygrandmother told me, you were
not supposed to do that, andthat's annoying to me.
And sometimes it is an intuitivethey're not in alignment with
what it is you're wanting or whoit is you're being. And those
two things feel reallydifferent, And it feels like
(16:21):
there's valid choices to be madein each, but you'd have to know.
You have to be aware. And that,like so, like, why is men's work
important? Oh, so maybe we canstart to understand these things
a little bit.
I have to imagine that happensin the dream circle too, right,
where you start to get a littlebit more clarity about, oh,
where do I tend to project? Andso on that, I guess a quick
(16:42):
follow-up question then is, doyou find the projections become
sort of habitual in some way? Ihave to imagine that they do.
Gregory Ganymedes (16:52):
Yes. Absolutely. Again, because we
just don't know what's happeningmost of the time. It's a very
introspective process to becomeconscious of a projection,
especially when it comes to veryclose relationships in our
(17:13):
lives, because we have thesethese, memories and these
associations with people in ourlives, that shape how we think
about them. And we aredisplacing parts of ourselves
onto those people unknowingly.
(17:34):
And then to really stop andthink, why do I really feel this
way about this person? What isit about me that's making me So
angry when they do this to me orwhen they say this to me. What
is it in me that reacts thatway? What is that part of myself
(17:55):
that like you're saying timeither I was taught to To throw
away or to distance myself fromor to kind of dissect from
myself either you were taught itor you just kind of naturally
did it because maybe you're apeople pleaser and it's not so
(18:17):
much that you were taught youwere told like, no, don't do
that, but you learned that bydoing this other thing people
would respond more positivelypositively, and so you kind of
disowned these other things ofyourself. You see it happening
in other people.
It gets you upset. And theninstead of saying, I hate that
bitch, you say, wait, thatperson has absolutely nothing to
(18:40):
do with these feelings that Ihave towards them. What is this
really about? That's the momentwhere you can withdraw the
production projection. Andsometimes that can be a very
painful experience when youwithdraw these parts of yourself
that you're putting out ontoother people, claim ownership
(19:02):
from of them, and realize thatthis is really something that
you have to deal with.
Eric Bomyea (19:08):
I think that's a really important word there,
ownership, by bringing on incuriosity, first of all,
awareness. Awareness that aprojection exists based off of
this intense feeling that youmight be feeling. So in my case,
it was the laser beam coming outof my forehead. Was like, okay,
now I have a feeling that I amnow aware of. So let me bring in
(19:30):
curiosity about this projection.
Like, what is it about thisperson that might be inciting
something inside of me? And thentaking ownership of like, that
person is not doing this to me.I am doing this. And what about
me, right, is having a reaction.And then I can use my my
(19:53):
awareness then of like, is thisserving me to be in this
relation or is this person notfor me?
Right? So kind of going back tolike the intuitive ping that you
were talking about, that it canbe a defense mechanism as well
to say like, okay, I need toseparate myself from this.
Right? So I think that justgives us a lot of things to look
at inside of ourselves while notputting it on the other person.
Timothy Bish (20:16):
Well, feels like our power is really in taking
responsibility for what is ours.And then because those are the
things that we can look at andchain. So I keep thinking about
the like, you start datingsomeone and you're not exclusive
and, you know, some people feellike, oh, but intuitively we
should sort of only be datingeach other. And you realize this
person might be dating someoneelse and you think that's probab
(20:41):
that's projection if you'rehaving a feeling about that, but
then you get to decide, can Ilive with like, what what is it
that I'm needing and wanting?But it is a very introspective
process that makes it about whatit is you need and what it is
you're aware of and has verylittle to do with the other
person, especially has verylittle to do with making the
other person wrong.
Right? It's all about whatchoices do I make to serve the
(21:05):
person I'm trying to be. Yeah.So there feels like a lot of
value in that process, Iimagine.
Gregory Ganymedes (21:10):
Yeah. And something I'd like to just kind
of tack on the end of that is,I'm not a specialist in
attachment theory, but I thinkthat comes into play too with
projection. I haven't reallyrounded out this thought very
well, but, that's part of ittoo. Like, our attachment
styles, everyone has a differentattachment style based on their
(21:31):
own personal history. And whenit comes to relationships and
projection, that aspectattachment styles and and what
serves you in your need ordisdain for attachment.
Oh, yeah. That's that's that'sright there.
Eric Bomyea (21:53):
Alright. So let's take this into the dream world.
Right? So we talked a lot about,like projections in the real
world, right? And how we canleverage our awareness and
curiosity to do some deepintrospective work.
Now let's talk about our dreams.How can men start to bring in
that same awareness andcuriosity into the dreams to see
(22:15):
where projection might be andwhat that might be telling us?
Gregory Ganymedes (22:18):
Hell yeah. I was holding on to this part two
to your your question of how dowe know what that we're
projecting? Part one is thefeeling, but part two is
actually the dreams too. Ourdreams will tell us exactly
what's happening when we areprojecting, because these are
(22:39):
the parts of ourselves that theycan only express themselves
through what we are feeding it.So the people that we know, the
places that we've been, theseare these are the kind of stock
characters and and settings thatwe provide to these unconscious
(23:01):
parts of ourselves that when wedream, they can put those on and
then look right back at us.
And so in a projection like apositive sort of projection, I
very often have dreams where,I'm working with Female co
(23:27):
worker of mine who I who I knowin waking is very much like a
trusted confidant here to myselflike someone who I feel is a
true, like, comrade to me. Veryand very often it it is a woman.
And so I know in dreams when I'mdreaming about this particular
(23:48):
coworker and working with her,because it's always her for some
reason for me, it's it's thisreally nice way of saying, I
really do like working with thisperson, and I really do trust
them. And I also need to trustmyself. I also need to have that
(24:11):
that relationship in in aninterior way.
I'm throwing this out at thisperson, and when I close my eyes
and that part of myself wants tostep forward, it puts on this
this persona for me. And that'sthat's a positive. That's a nice
sort of projection and itprompts me to say, what is it
(24:35):
about, my coworker that I reallydo admire and that I really do
like and how can I pull thatinto my own my own work in the
office or in my relationships orin being a good coworker with
other people?
Eric Bomyea (24:55):
So in that example, like, the the dream is speaking
to you and you're listening, andthen you're getting curious
about like, okay, like, it'sspeaking this thing to me. It's
presenting this character to me.Let me bring in a question of
like, why is this personpresenting themselves? What is
it about this person that iseliciting? Because in the dream,
(25:15):
like, can you imagine that youwere having a positive feeling
in the dream and that was anindicator that this is a
positive character, that thismight be a positive projection?
Gregory Ganymedes (25:25):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I've I've
even had dreams with thesecoworkers where they'll be like,
the good female coworker andthen the bad female coworker in
the same dream. And I'm thinkingof one in particular where it
starts out where I'm kind ofworking with the bad female
coworker, and I'm just trying mybest to, like, stay on top of my
(25:50):
work and don't let anything fallthrough the cracks.
Don't give her any, like,ammunition to use against me
because she's out to get me orwhatever. And then I see my good
coworker, you know, afterhaving, you know, gone above and
beyond for the bad one, and Ijust see her and we just hold
each other and we like give eachother a big bear hug. We're
like, oh my god. I didn't knowyou'd be here. We like hug each
(26:11):
other.
So yeah. A % the feeling isthere.
Eric Bomyea (26:15):
Yeah. So there's a distinct feeling between that
that one character to the othercharacter and then being able to
kind of like develop thatrelationship. And again, being
curious of like, why are youhere right now? Like, what what
message do you have for me? Andand getting curious about that.
Timothy Bish (26:31):
Well, and just so that I taking it back one step.
There in order for it to be aprojection based on the
definition that we gave earlier,there's still an underlying
belief. Right? And so I guessI'm curious, like, the good and
the bad coworker are projectionscoming from that same belief. Is
is that belief your idea of whatit means to be a good coworker?
Gregory Ganymedes (26:56):
Such a good question. Dang. Yes. It it is
that. It is also my own sense ofinherent value in myself, I
think, that I'm projecting ontomy coworkers when and I think
that dream in particular, tokind of really really try to get
(27:17):
this out there cohesively.
That dream it just juxtaposedthe two of them to say, here is
a coworker, the bad one. Inwaking life, I feel like this
coworker does not value me. Andso when I don't value me, I get
(27:38):
defensive. I feel vulnerable andI want to lash out or I want to
just run away. I don't want themto see me.
I don't want any attention drawnto me by this bad coworker
because I don't trust them. Butthis is my own projection of my
own insecurity of how how muchvalue I'm providing to my work
(27:58):
environment and how much of a, acompetent employee I am. Whereas
the good coworker is areassurance of my value and my
competence. And without havingme have to prove myself with a
track record and my yearlyreview process, this person just
(28:20):
naturally saw the inherent valuein me as a fellow human being,
you know, without all of the thedata. It's important.
The parts of me that there areparts of okay. There are parts
of me that are biased towardsthat. I'm a person who feels
(28:42):
that it is better for people tovalue each other regardless of
what the other person providessociety, a workplace, the
family. I don't care. Everyperson matters and has value.
And then there are parts of methat I have distance from myself
(29:04):
that says, some people are ofmore value than others. Some
people have more power overother people. And when I am
presented with opportunities orsituations where I am in power
over an or I have some sort ofpower dynamic with another
person, I have an advantage ofthat. I can kind of I don't
(29:30):
know. This is my unconsciouspoint now.
I don't know what happens, and Ihave to work on that, because
this is part of myself that I'vereally cut off.
Timothy Bish (29:39):
Well, so it sounds like the like the the good
coworker, bad coworker example,those feel like value judgments,
right? Based on what youmentioned earlier, like this
bias of what you think is goodor bad, it also then sounds like
each of these characters arerepresenting something that is
(30:00):
true. Like, because, you know,like things things that you are
capable of doing, ways that youare capable of being. And so so
then part of that projection is,well, I like it when I'm these
things, and I don't like it whenI'm these things. I like it when
other people are these things,and I don't like it when other
people are these things.
And therefore, now I'veprojected on to you characters
(30:22):
in my dream, bad and good.Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
I know that, like, I'm new tothis, so I want to, like, nuts
and bolts. Thank you. Thank you.Thank you.
Eric Bomyea (30:31):
I love it. And thank you, Gregory, for being so
vulnerable with, like, lettingus into this experience and
presenting these biases for us,right? They're very relatable. I
can relate to them and I'm suremany people can. And so I just
want to thank you for allowingus in to this experience and the
strength to have done the innerwork to get to this point.
(30:55):
I just want to recognize that,right? Like this is not easy.
What Gregory just did letting usin like that and being so self
aware, right? Like I strive forthat, Right? And you're here
presenting it as a reallypowerful way of like taking
ownership again, going back tothis word of ownership.
You're taking ownership of thereis a bias in you of like, you
(31:17):
have a certain way that youbelieve people should be
treated, but you also recognizethere's this other part of you.
Right? That may be a little bit,like, shadowier and a little bit
more, like, whatever it mightbe. And it's, just, like,
saying, like, hi. I see you.
I haven't fully explored youyet, but like, I'm going to. And
so I just I just love that and Ilove, you know, the the
(31:38):
awareness that you brought tous. So
Gregory Ganymedes (31:39):
thank you.
Timothy Bish (31:40):
Well, this is an example of the importance of
men's work, right, so that westart bringing awareness,
conscious awareness to theseparts of us. And then I think
why queer men's work is also soimportant because I think we
have been given a lot of notionsthat we might be walking around
with. These programs that mightbe running unconsciously about,
like, what it is or how it iswe're supposed to be. And I
(32:01):
think that we see that, youknow, manifest in a lot of
different ways. And so I knowthat there has been a lot of
projection in our queercommunity about, like, well, if
you're gonna be gay or if you'regonna be queer, like, you should
do it this way and that, like,this is this way is better than
this way or, you know, and Ithink it's not until right now
(32:21):
that I was really hit with, oh,that's that's, you know, a lot
of projection and something thatwe could look at and be like,
well, is that just because I'vebeen told, you know, or that I
felt safe in in this way so thenI like, that became a program
that I started running.
And so it feels like it'sopening up the like, a a lot of
possibility for healing when webecome aware of, oh, maybe I'm
(32:45):
not mad at that person becausethey've chosen to dress, in a
very different way than I amdressing. Maybe maybe I'm just
noticing that it's bumping upagainst an old pattern. And when
I become aware of that pattern,I get to decide, is that serving
me? Do I want to keep thisanymore? And I would say,
Gregory Ganymedes (33:05):
have
Timothy Bish (33:05):
to imagine that it isn't like a it's not like
turning off the record player,right? Be like, I see the record
spinning and I have to keepreminding myself because it's
gonna keep playing until until Ibreak that habit, right? So this
feels all like reallyempowering, if if not maybe a
little daunting.
Gregory Ganymedes (33:23):
And I'm really I'm really glad that you
brought up that word healingbecause as I hear you both
talking about, you know, themandate to take ownership of
these parts of ourselves. Theseare really painful, really
(33:44):
vulnerable, sad, lonely parts ofourselves. And so it's not so
much that okay. It is a bothend. It is a both.
Yes. We are causing harm toother people in our projections
unknowingly to ourselves. And wehave been harmed ourselves,
(34:11):
which is what can be behind theprojection. And so like what you
were just lifting up, Tim, isthat, again, with the example of
someone changing the way theydress. You've come to know this
person.
You rely on them. The version ofthem that you've known for all
(34:32):
these years. There's somethingabout that person and the way
they look that does somethingfor you that gives you some sort
of sense of validation oraffirmation. And then when they
change, it's gone. And suddenlyyou're faced with that.
(34:58):
That person is still thatperson. What was it about the
way that they were presenting toyou that you were able to lean
on that? That it it gavesomething to you that you
needed, that you couldn't getyourself, that you couldn't
produce within yourself, thatyou needed that other person to
provide you with that visual orthat that constancy. Now that
(35:20):
it's gone, where is it gonnacome from? Suddenly that
relationship has changed.
And it's up to you to realize,wow, this person is
authentically an autonomous,fully rounded human being and
not just a character in mystory.
Eric Bomyea (35:40):
That's really powerful because as I was
sitting with that example of theallowance of somebody to change
and shift, my projections are away for me to maintain
consistency and order in mylife. And so if I'm projecting
out onto somebody this certainimage and then all of a sudden
(36:04):
that image changes, that cancreate an incredible amount of
insecurity in my life, anincredible amount of
uncertainty, unsafety, somethingcould shift. If I was dependent
on that thing to be consistentand I don't have a relationship
with change that I can allow forthings to change and shift and
be that. And for people to betheir own beings and not just be
(36:29):
characters in my life, like,yeah, I can definitely see how
this can be hard, lonely, scarywork.
Timothy Bish (36:37):
I mean, I have to imagine that our projections,
that one of the purposes thatthey serve was to keep us safe.
Right? Is is that is that apossibility? I mean, it sounds
to me like we got we we weregiven an understanding of the
world, and maybe we wereprojecting onto people around us
(36:59):
because that's what we thoughtwas gonna keep us safe.
Gregory Ganymedes (37:02):
Yeah. Whether it was explicit or not,
something was programmed into usto say that this part of you
should be rejected. And then ifyou see it in other people, you
should chastise them. When itcomes to I mean, I've had to
(37:24):
deal with this when it comes toableism with the word healthy. I
come from a family of of, youknow, professionals from the
health world and to kind ofrelearn what it means to let a
(37:50):
person be healthy in the waythat that is right for them and
not just to mandate for them andsay, okay.
Well, if you do not fit in thisbox, then you are not healthy.
And then I have the right tothen chastise you for doing
whatever, eating whatever, ornot going to whatever fitness
(38:11):
program. That's just anothersort of flavor of projection. So
this is something that wasingrained in me that I'm
projecting out there that I hadto kind of withdraw and say to
myself, okay. Stop.
Stop getting so upset aboutthese about these things. This
(38:32):
is really about me. This isabout me. But we also have to be
aware that we are someone else'sprojection all the time.
Timothy Bish (38:42):
Mhmm.
Gregory Ganymedes (38:43):
And that people are gonna get
disappointed in us. People aregoing to become angry with us,
or people are going to favor usamong other people too because
of their own projections. And soif if you know that's happening
(39:07):
and when you know that'shappening, there's kind of that
duty to to bring it intoconsciousness. And sometimes say
to this person, I know you'vealways known me to do this sort
of thing. I've always done thisfor you, or I've always been
this sort of person to you.
(39:28):
But there's just so much more tome, and this person that you
might have in your mind of who Iam could be an idealized version
of me, or there's something thathappened to you and you're
really hurt about it and andsometimes you want to make me
(39:48):
responsible for that, or youwant me to be the person who's
going to fix that for you, oryou want me to be the person who
you can be angry at because Imatch this this projection. And
that that's also tough. So notonly are we throwing these
things out there, we're therecipients of them as well a %.
Eric Bomyea (40:12):
That hits really, really deeply because like
that's been some of the thingsthat I've struggled with the
most is like feeling put insideof a box by other people. That
it's like, oh, you areprojecting something onto me and
you are not allowing me to be aperson. You are not allowing me
to be who I am, and you'resaying I have to be this certain
(40:34):
way that I can't change, that Ican't shift, that I have to fit
your model, your perception. Andit's like, it's suffocating.
It's stifling.
And I know that now I can takethis feeling of of of feeling
stuck in this box of being stuckas somebody's projection. I can
use that empathy when I'm doingit to other people. And I can
(40:58):
really start to bring awarenessto where in my life I might be
doing this subconsciously andstart to pull that tether back
and be like, it's not about thatperson. It's about me. So what
is it that I can work on onmyself to do the healing for
myself so that I can hopefullynot do as much projecting out?
(41:22):
Because now I I understand likehow it feels to be projected
onto. So thank you for that.
Timothy Bish (41:28):
So I'm curious. I'm sure that projection is
possible for all people in allplaces at all times. But I'm
wondering, do you believe thatour current culture where we
have a lot of shoulds, a lot ofbeliefs about what is right or
wrong, very clear boundariesabout what, like, what men are
(41:50):
supposed to do, what women aresupposed to do, like, what the
you know, do you think that thatmakes it easier to to project
and or how how might thatinfluence people who are looking
to bring awareness to thispattern in their life?
Eric Bomyea (42:08):
Tim with the big questions.
Timothy Bish (42:09):
I mean, yes. We're like, go for it. Welcome to the
podcast, everybody.
Gregory Ganymedes (42:15):
He said we're gonna go all in. So but I also
wanna say, Eric, what you werejust sharing is is beautiful,
and I think it is a uniqueexperience for queer men that
that we do hold So manyprojections Of other people, And
(42:37):
they don't realize they're doingit. We don't realize they're
doing it. There's a wholebehavior of of and kind of going
along with the projection thatwe do all the time because
sometimes it feels good andsometimes it grants us rewards
whether or not it's right orwrong. And so I think that kind
of ties into what what you'resaying, Tim, too, on a very kind
(43:02):
of global level.
I think we're in a time rightnow where we're realizing that
there really isn't so much clearduality between right and wrong.
And I think that's why so manypeople really wanna cling so
hard to these antiquated,concepts of what is acceptable
(43:25):
and what is not, because we'rereally entering an age where
liberation is is at the door foreveryone. Like, we are at a
moment where we have theopportunity to really be true to
who we are and see value in eachother. Here I go again with my
bias from my good coworkerdream. We're really getting
(43:48):
towards the good coworker.
She's right there. And when itcomes to projection, can we say
scapegoating? Can we talk aboutthe projection that comes into
play with scapegoating and forus as queer people, how that
comes into play? I think, yes,projection is that. And I guess
(44:09):
it is kind of like a It's it'sin vogue right now to kind of,
take these very, hypocriticalstances that we see from, pretty
narrow minded people saying, youknow, scapegoating the queer
(44:29):
community community saying theyare all the people who bring in
all these bad things, and thenthere's like a whole list of all
the bad things that queer peopledo.
And then it's pretty trendy forfolks online to be like you're
projecting because these areactually the things that you
guys are doing that you'reprojecting onto us. Okay. Fine.
(44:50):
You can call that out if youwant to. And, yeah, it's true.
The reason they do that isbecause it is unconscious.
They're they're taking theirthings that they want to devalue
in themselves, how they canexploit vulnerable populations
(45:10):
of people and not really sufferthe consequences. And then they
say that queer people are doingthat, that we are the ones who
are going after vulnerablepeople and changing their
genders on them or, you know,doing some sort of diabolical
thing, which is really thesedisowned parts of themselves
(45:32):
that they want to do to us,where we say, hi, This is me.
This is who I am, and this iswhat I want to be. And they say,
nope.
And then they cut us off. We arewe don't have the same amount of
power and agency that that a lotof these, wealthy people do,
especially in government. Andso, yes, it is a projection. It
(45:56):
is scapegoating. We have to beaware of it when it happens, and
also know that it comes fromtheir own sad, lonely, hurt
places too even though it'shurting us.
Timothy Bish (46:14):
Well, and going back to where we started
originally, like, the the signthat we can look for is this big
emotion. And so we can look forthat in ourselves. When I am
experiencing a big emotion, itis an opportunity for me to
become curious about whatprogram is running and what
beliefs I'm projecting onto asituation or a person. It sounds
(46:34):
like we can also then take thatand become aware, oh, if if this
person or group of people infront of me are presenting with
big emotions, I can also becurious about what might be
happening for them. And eventhough it might be impossible
for me to know precisely howthey are projecting and if
they're projecting onto me, Ican at least think, oh, well,
(46:58):
this is the the causes underwhich projection is likely to
happen.
And then maybe giving myselfsome context for they just
treated me this way or or thisseries of events just unfolded
and then I have a possibility ofcontext.
Eric Bomyea (47:16):
Exercise and empathy. Like bringing in that
of like, oh, if this group isprojecting onto me and I'm
recognizing that, I could clapback. I could tell them, oh,
you're just projecting onto me.But then I actually might be
(47:37):
fitting into one of theirstereotypes. I might be fitting
into one of the things thatthey're actually stereotyping me
about.
And they'd be like, see, I toldyou. I told you you were exactly
like that. You did exactly thething. Versus allowing it to be
an opportunity to be like, oh, Ican empathize with this person.
By experiencing their intenseemotion right now, I can kind of
relate to where they might becoming from and what they might
(48:00):
be needing in that moment.
And if I was in that case, Idon't need somebody to be, like,
pointing at me and being like,oh, you're just projecting onto
me. I don't need that.
Timothy Bish (48:10):
I mean, feels like one possibility. It also feels
like a possibility that I mightobserve people in a big emotion,
get a sense of what they mightbe projecting, and then choose
to move myself away from thatsituation. Absolutely. So I keep
thinking about I don't I don'tthink I saw a lot of queer
people represented at theJanuary sixth insurrection, for
(48:32):
example.
Gregory Ganymedes (48:33):
At least not openly queer.
Timothy Bish (48:34):
Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so I I feel like as as
someone as someone who is openlyqueer, maybe like, oh, I I'm
recognizing something. I'm notsure that I'm safe.
But, like, my choice would be Ishould remove myself from this
place. I should go I should go.So I think that recognition can
be a powerful tool for awarenessand potentially empathy, but
(48:57):
sometimes for self preservationand safety too. Like and then
maybe I can empathize later whenI'm, you know
Eric Bomyea (49:02):
I think it goes back to the what you mentioned
earlier about, like, like,projection, judgment, intuition,
they're kind of all tightlyentwined here.
Gregory Ganymedes (49:11):
A %.
Eric Bomyea (49:12):
And it's like, okay, is that an intuitive ping?
Is that a projection? Is that ajudgment? Right? And I think,
regardless of how it'sclassified, it comes back to
again and again and againawareness that it's happening,
and then curiosity, what is ittrying to tell me?
Yeah. And then taking consciousaction on that based off of what
(49:33):
will serve me and my safety orpurpose the best in this moment.
Yeah. On that note, we havecovered a lot of ground today.
And so I just wanna do a littlecheck-in to see how complete
we're feeling.
So and then if there's any lastareas that we want to explore
before we close out. So, Tim,I'll start with you. How are you
(49:56):
feeling?
Timothy Bish (49:57):
I feel good. I feel I feel complete. Feel
complete. Gregory?
Gregory Ganymedes (50:00):
Do we have to stop?
Eric Bomyea (50:04):
Truly, this is this is better.
Timothy Bish (50:06):
I mean, I believe that I believe that if you are
not familiar with the concept ofprojection, I feel like now, I I
personally feel much clearerabout it, how it operates, and
how I can start to work with it.
Eric Bomyea (50:19):
Yeah, mean, I started this episode saying
like, I'm a novice, right? Istill feel a novice, but at
least I have way more contextand I can start to see how
important it is to recognizethese things in my own life.
Like, I'm I'm committed to myown healing, and I'm committed
to being the best possibleversion of myself. And I now
(50:39):
believe that this is a hugecomponent of that, of, like,
recognizing where is it in mylife that I am projecting? Where
where is it that people areprojecting onto me?
And just, like, working throughthat. Like, I definitely can see
how this is this is gonna bereally big takeaway conversation
(51:02):
for for myself at least.
Gregory Ganymedes (51:04):
And write down those dreams Yeah. My
friends. Write down your dreamseven if it's just a little
tidbit or even who was Idreaming about because that will
pull the veil right away, ofwhat are you putting on to other
people? What is this otherperson doing for you in your
life? And so yeah.
Eric Bomyea (51:26):
With that, that's reminder that you can find
Gregory with the Queer Men'sDream Circle. Do you wanna do a
little bit more information onthat for our for our listeners
in case anyone wants to join infor there?
Gregory Ganymedes (51:37):
Thank you. Yes. I'd love to. Yes. I host
the Queer Men's Virtual DreamCircle.
You can get in touch with me onmy website. I have a little
handy dandy form there where youjust throw your email address at
me. My website istheganymedeproject.com. Ganymede
is spelled G A N Y M E D E. Youcan also find me on Instagram
(52:02):
the Ganymede project.
Throw me a DM. Just as long as Ihave your email address, I will
put you on my email blast andsend you the link. We do this
dream circle once every twomonths for the time being.
There's no cost to it. Noexperience necessary with
journaling your dreams.
But if you do have experiencewith journaling your dreams,
(52:25):
you're gonna get a lot out of itas well. It's for everyone, and,
it's a special placespecifically for queer men to to
come into the contact with theseparts of ourselves that we don't
always get to talk about withother folks. It's very special.
Eric Bomyea (52:40):
We're big proponents of journaling here.
So another another,recommendation for listeners,
not just your daily journalpractice, but also try try to
incorporate some dreamjournaling into it and see what
happens. See what comes up. Seewhat veils are are removed. So,
thank you very much for puttingyour offering out into the world
and for being a part of ourcircle here.
(53:03):
I'm I'm also feeling verycomplete now as well. So, Tim,
will you take us out, please?
Timothy Bish (53:08):
Absolutely. Let's close our eyes and take a deep
inhale through the nose. Agentle exhale through the mouth.
And it is with deep appreciationand gratitude for the shared
sacred space of insight,exploration, understanding,
discovery, awareness. That as weleave the circle, I wish
(53:29):
everyone listening safety,community, brotherhood, and
love.
And with these words, ourcontainer is open but not
broken.
Gregory Ganymedes (53:36):
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go
all in on men's work, embodimentpractices, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. IfIf you haven't already, please
be sure to like, subscribe, andleave us a review. Today, we're
joined by Gregory Ganymedes, adream worker and facilitator
focused on exploring theintersection of queer identity
and the subconscious throughdreams. He leads the Queer Men's
(00:28):
Virtual Dream Circle, a spacewhere queer men gather to share,
interpret, and engage abouttheir dreams as a tool for self
discovery and healing. Today,we're talking about projection
and how it shows up within ourdreams and our everyday life.
Tim, Gregory, are you ready togo all in?
Timothy Bish (00:43):
I'm ready.
Gregory Ganymedes (00:45):
Ready as ever.
Eric Bomyea (00:46):
Alright. Let's do this. So I'm gonna admit, I'm a
novice here. So when we talkabout projection in our dreams
or even projection in oureveryday life, like, what are we
talking about, Gregory? Can yougive us a a couple sentence
overview of what projection is?
Gregory Ganymedes (01:02):
Yes. Of course. And from this is my own
understanding, that when we'retalking about projection, we're
talking about something that wedon't know we're doing. It is
completely unconscious. Thereare behaviors.
There are stories, histories,people, personas in our lives
(01:26):
that we consider are in linewith who we are and attributes
of ourselves that we say areours and things that we say are
not us and not ours. And when itcomes to projection, this is
when we see other people outthere in the world, close
(01:47):
relationships, parasocialrelationships, and everything in
between. And we have a verystrong feeling response to the
behavior that the appearance ofa person, any sort of thing that
is presented in front of us. Itelicits this very strong
response.
Eric Bomyea (02:07):
So it's like a reaction to something that I'm
seeing. And maybe a subconsciousthing that I'm not even aware of
it, but there's a stimulus. Andthen all of a sudden I have a
reaction and I have a feelingfrom that stimulus.
Timothy Bish (02:22):
Yeah. But I'm curious. I'm sorry. I'm gonna
the reaction is the is the theawareness that the projection is
happening. Is the projection thejudgment?
Like, in the example of you seesomeone dressed a certain way,
which part of the which part ofthat is projection?
Gregory Ganymedes (02:39):
Great question. The part that is
projection is the part that youdon't know that you yourself
don't want to own that is a partof you. For in the example of
someone who is wearingsomething, like you said, Tim,
that we find is hideous oroffensive in some sort of way.
Eric Bomyea (03:00):
Let's use my maroon sweatshirt.
Timothy Bish (03:02):
It's not hideous, but but but like, let's just
say,
Eric Bomyea (03:04):
like, we're talking about my maroon sweatshirt. You
you're walking down the streetand you see my maroon
sweatshirt.
Gregory Ganymedes (03:09):
Or let's just say perhaps I'm walking down the
street. I see you in your maroonsweatshirt, and I say, what is
that grown man doing wearingthat shade of color out here in
public where there are childrenaround? I don't want my son. I
(03:30):
don't want my kids, my nephew tothink that maroon is an
acceptable color for a man towear. So the projection there is
anti feminine, super masculinegender role bullshit that we're
(03:50):
always dealing with, and weinternalize it so much.
And we feel self righteous, thatwe feel like I need to correct
that or I need to point out thaterror. I need to point out the
speck in my neighbor's eye.Whereas there's a huge log in my
eye, which is I'm notcomfortable. I'm not secure
enough with my feminineattributes that I would be
(04:13):
willing to wear a maroon hoodieout there on the street.
Timothy Bish (04:16):
The idea is that we're that we are potentially,
and I I suspect most of us are,walking around with these
preconceived notions and ideas,many of which were handed to us.
And then if we believe themYeah. If we believe them so
fully that they are sort of theprograms running in the
background that we're not evenaware of because they're so
intertwined into our experience.And so I take that, and then I'm
(04:38):
moving through the world. And soI start to have feelings and
opinions and judgments about theworld around me based based on
these things.
So I could say, I think maroonis a bad example because I it
looks so good. And, you know,but, like, but, like, if maroon
were to not be, I'm basicallyletting this program run-in the
(04:58):
back of my mind that says maroonisn't for men. And then my
projection is you shouldn't bewearing that. It looks bad on
you. It's inappropriate here.
All of those things are, like,the projection based on this
program running. And if I'munaware of the program, it just
feels like I'm defending whatI've been told is the status
quo, like the like the sort ofunderstood agreement that we all
(05:21):
have even though none of us everreally agreed to it. Is that am
I hearing you right?
Gregory Ganymedes (05:25):
You nailed it. And, of course, that's just
one form of it. These things canbe as big as gender norm stuff,
and it can be very trivial stuffas well, not nearly as big in
social as what we were just kindof, raising up right now, or it
(05:45):
could be even bigger, when itcomes to politics, religion,
race, that stuff. So it it runsthe gamut. But, yes,
essentially, these sorts ofproblems that we should be
dealing with in ourselves thatthe other person out there had
like, they're not part of it atall.
(06:07):
It's purely our own stuff thatwe're putting onto it. And it
could be a stranger on thestreet that is subject to our
projection. It could also bepeople who are very intimately,
involved in our lives that we'reprojecting onto and most of the
time it is the people who are,you know, We're seeing day to
day our family, our friends coworkers and of course those
(06:30):
were, lovers and and spouses Hotbed for projection right there
and also with that in mindprojection is not always a bad
thing. We project things that wedon't feel are part of ourselves
or that we are not us that arevaluable, or that are really
(06:50):
attractive, and we will projectthat onto another person.
Timothy Bish (06:54):
Can you give an example of that what sounds like
a more beneficial version ofprojection?
Gregory Ganymedes (06:59):
Sure. One of my favorite queer out there
among many, and please do notfeel slighted if I don't mention
all of them. But one of them whois at the forefront of my mind
right now is Lil Nas X. He justreleased some new music, and I'm
(07:19):
just gushing over it and I'mbopping to it. He released a
song called hot box, I think andThis person to me, like, he
could release literallyanything, and I'd be like,
that's a bop.
I will love whatever he comesout with. I will love whatever
he's wearing. I will lovewhatever he has to say no matter
(07:41):
how controversial it is justbecause I'm like, I admire this
person. He's so talented. Hesays exactly all the things that
I wish a lot of young queerartists would say.
And so, like, these are, like,projections of mine because,
like, of course, this person isa fallible person. Of course,
(08:02):
he's gonna do things that arebad, but I'm just, like, putting
him on a pedestal.
Timothy Bish (08:06):
So I wanna I wanna break this down even further if
you're open to it. I feel likethe he's so talented. He's so
admirable. That is theprojection, but it is coming
from, you were saying, this thisconception in your mind. Right?
So can you talk about, like,what you're believing that leads
you to admiration or orrecognition of talent or any of
(08:30):
these things?
Gregory Ganymedes (08:31):
Oh my god. Yeah. You're asking the great
questions. So I happen to be amusician myself. I'm a
classically trained musician.
And so these are the sort ofthings that I aspire to, a level
of artistry that breaks themold, that gets people's
attention, that really putssomething into the world that
(08:53):
hasn't been there before or isunique in that sort of really, I
don't know, impactful way.That's something I've always
strived to do when I'mperforming either whether it be
like in someone's living room oron a stage somewhere. And so I
(09:14):
think I have my own insecuritiesabout the level of success that
I've had as a performer. I knowby listening to the podcast
that, you guys are involved inperforming arts as well, so
that's cool. You might know it.
Catch on. Pick up what I'mputting down. So I think that's
part of the projection tour.It's like, have this idealized
(09:35):
version of what I always wantedto be, what I always wanted to
do. And then when I see someoneout there doing it, of course, I
could feel jealous about it, butthere's also a sort of project a
positive projection where I'mlike, this person can do no
wrong because they're justgiving it all to me that I've
always wanted.
Timothy Bish (09:50):
I think that's so beautiful. So just I feel like I
feel like so there's thisthere's this idea of of your
talent, what you were wanting,and and now it sounds like you
you have a lot of things youcould project. So you were
projecting admiration, for histalent, but you could also have
projected jealousy, envy. Youknow? So so that's I think
(10:11):
that's helpful to understandthis, this idea of, like, this
underlying belief and then andthen what we bring to our
experience from that belief.
Is that what you're alsohearing?
Eric Bomyea (10:20):
I am. There's within that projection as well.
So by us projecting admirationonto somebody, that is
potentially helping us toelevate ourselves to say, Oh, I
admire this person so much,they're now inspiring me, so I
now can uphold that samestandard for my own craft. If it
is music, right? If I'm admiringa musician, I can leverage that.
(10:43):
I can leverage that projectionas a motivation to get better at
my own craft. But at what pointdoes that projection of
admiration also become thepedestal status where we've now
put this person on the pedestaland now what if they do wrong?
Right? Like, how does thatprojection that was maybe a
(11:05):
positive in trying to build themup and building up ourselves now
become a potential negative?
Gregory Ganymedes (11:10):
Yeah. I think the key thing here is that so
much about projection isunconscious. The fact that I
could pull out an example likethis and just be like, this is
what's happening. That's veryconvenient for me to be able to
do that. However, I'm sure thereare examples that I can't
provide you because I just don'tknow that I'm doing it.
Timothy Bish (11:29):
I I almost I almost apologized when I said
that because, like, based on thedefinition of projection that
we've come up with so far, Irealized I'm asking you to
identify for us right now inreal time a thing you might be
unconscious of.
Gregory Ganymedes (11:41):
Yeah. Yeah.
Timothy Bish (11:43):
But So I'm sorry about that, and thank you for
being able to, do it.
Gregory Ganymedes (11:47):
But I
Eric Bomyea (11:47):
think this is a beautiful moment now of
recognition of the work that youhave done to be able to become
conscious of these projectionsand then ask the question, is
this serving me? Is thisconscious if I'm bringing
awareness to this projection,which had been a subconscious
behavior, like, by me bringingawareness to it, I'm also
bringing curiosity andquestioning, is this a positive
(12:11):
or a negative projection for meright now? And so I'm curious
about, like, what are some ofthe ways in which we can become
a little bit more aware of theseprojections?
Gregory Ganymedes (12:21):
Thank you. And thank you for, like, tapping
into that because, yeah, this iskind of complicated, and you can
only talk about what you know. Ionly know what I know. And
there's so much going on thatfrom my day to day, that's
happening in the background, andI just have no idea about it.
And sometimes you just gotta getsmacked in the face with it.
(12:42):
So how that happens? In mydefinition, my very rambling,
winding definition about whatprojection is, there's the very
strong feeling that comes fromit. I think that's a telltale
sign that there is a projectionhappening. Again, it could be an
(13:04):
overwhelming feeling of lust ordesire where you just see
someone and you're just, like,gobsmacked by just how much you
want them. Like, you just wantto possess them and have them
all to yourself.
And it just you're just kind ofknocked out. Like, nothing else
(13:27):
matters. You just see this thisperson and and you're just at a
loss. Like, the whole worldstops. That's actually kind of
projection because the feelingis just so much.
Eric Bomyea (13:40):
I think about the example that we were using
about, like, you know, myhoodie, maroon hoodie, and,
like, the the kind of, like,persona that you put on about,
like, you're that person whosees me walking down the street
and is like, how dare you wearmaroon? It's like, when you were
talking about that, I could feelwhat self righteousness feels
like or righteousness feels likein my body. And it's like this
beam in my forehead. So now I'maware that if I'm projecting
(14:04):
righteousness out into theworld, I have a feeling that
might be associated with that.So I'm like, oh, like, so now I
can see, like, as I'm goingabout my day, like, where there
might be that projection comingup.
Gregory Ganymedes (14:17):
I think the beam coming out of your forehead
is quite an apt, vision for thatbecause you could have a beam
coming out of the top of yourhead, which goes straight up to
a transcendent world. However,your beam is coming right in
front of your forehead and who'sout there in front of you
receiving the ends of that? Beamthat's right in front of your
face. Yes, if you see someone orsomeone says something sometimes
(14:44):
That just really gets to you. Itgets under your skin and
sometimes, you know, we all havethose moments where it's like, I
don't know what it is about thatperson, but they just rubbed me
the wrong way.
Of course, that's like yourintuitive function. That's
that's something in yourpsychology that's saying, I
can't quite put my finger on it.However, I'm sensing something.
(15:08):
I'm picking up something that Ijust can't quite get on board
with. That is also a little bitof of a projection happening to
there.
Timothy Bish (15:17):
It seems to me based on what you just said, and
I I I can feel myself gettingexcited thinking about this
because I I think intuition isso interesting and powerful. It
feels like one way I could orone could deepen their intuition
and start to trust it more is ifthey are able to make if they're
able to discern betweenintuitive pings and projections.
(15:38):
So it sounds like the more workwe do to recognize so I I have
to imagine based on their naturethat we might not ever be fully
aware of all of our projections.But, like, just even being
mindful, like, oh, these existfor me and everyone else, and I
should look at them, then Imight be able to make a
distinction between am Iprojecting based on a previously
held belief, or is this anintuitive ping? Because I do
(16:01):
think that person who rubs usthe wrong way is sometimes, you
know, this idea like, mygrandmother told me, you were
not supposed to do that, andthat's annoying to me.
And sometimes it is an intuitivethey're not in alignment with
what it is you're wanting or whoit is you're being. And those
two things feel reallydifferent, And it feels like
(16:21):
there's valid choices to be madein each, but you'd have to know.
You have to be aware. And that,like so, like, why is men's work
important? Oh, so maybe we canstart to understand these things
a little bit.
I have to imagine that happensin the dream circle too, right,
where you start to get a littlebit more clarity about, oh,
where do I tend to project? Andso on that, I guess a quick
(16:42):
follow-up question then is, doyou find the projections become
sort of habitual in some way? Ihave to imagine that they do.
Gregory Ganymedes (16:52):
Yes. Absolutely. Again, because we
just don't know what's happeningmost of the time. It's a very
introspective process to becomeconscious of a projection,
especially when it comes to veryclose relationships in our
(17:13):
lives, because we have thesethese, memories and these
associations with people in ourlives, that shape how we think
about them. And we aredisplacing parts of ourselves
onto those people unknowingly.
(17:34):
And then to really stop andthink, why do I really feel this
way about this person? What isit about me that's making me So
angry when they do this to me orwhen they say this to me. What
is it in me that reacts thatway? What is that part of myself
(17:55):
that like you're saying timeither I was taught to To throw
away or to distance myself fromor to kind of dissect from
myself either you were taught itor you just kind of naturally
did it because maybe you're apeople pleaser and it's not so
(18:17):
much that you were taught youwere told like, no, don't do
that, but you learned that bydoing this other thing people
would respond more positivelypositively, and so you kind of
disowned these other things ofyourself. You see it happening
in other people.
It gets you upset. And theninstead of saying, I hate that
bitch, you say, wait, thatperson has absolutely nothing to
(18:40):
do with these feelings that Ihave towards them. What is this
really about? That's the momentwhere you can withdraw the
production projection. Andsometimes that can be a very
painful experience when youwithdraw these parts of yourself
that you're putting out ontoother people, claim ownership
(19:02):
from of them, and realize thatthis is really something that
you have to deal with.
Eric Bomyea (19:08):
I think that's a really important word there,
ownership, by bringing on incuriosity, first of all,
awareness. Awareness that aprojection exists based off of
this intense feeling that youmight be feeling. So in my case,
it was the laser beam coming outof my forehead. Was like, okay,
now I have a feeling that I amnow aware of. So let me bring in
(19:30):
curiosity about this projection.
Like, what is it about thisperson that might be inciting
something inside of me? And thentaking ownership of like, that
person is not doing this to me.I am doing this. And what about
me, right, is having a reaction.And then I can use my my
(19:53):
awareness then of like, is thisserving me to be in this
relation or is this person notfor me?
Right? So kind of going back tolike the intuitive ping that you
were talking about, that it canbe a defense mechanism as well
to say like, okay, I need toseparate myself from this.
Right? So I think that justgives us a lot of things to look
at inside of ourselves while notputting it on the other person.
Timothy Bish (20:16):
Well, feels like our power is really in taking
responsibility for what is ours.And then because those are the
things that we can look at andchain. So I keep thinking about
the like, you start datingsomeone and you're not exclusive
and, you know, some people feellike, oh, but intuitively we
should sort of only be datingeach other. And you realize this
person might be dating someoneelse and you think that's probab
(20:41):
that's projection if you'rehaving a feeling about that, but
then you get to decide, can Ilive with like, what what is it
that I'm needing and wanting?But it is a very introspective
process that makes it about whatit is you need and what it is
you're aware of and has verylittle to do with the other
person, especially has verylittle to do with making the
other person wrong.
Right? It's all about whatchoices do I make to serve the
(21:05):
person I'm trying to be. Yeah.So there feels like a lot of
value in that process, Iimagine.
Gregory Ganymedes (21:10):
Yeah. And something I'd like to just kind
of tack on the end of that is,I'm not a specialist in
attachment theory, but I thinkthat comes into play too with
projection. I haven't reallyrounded out this thought very
well, but, that's part of ittoo. Like, our attachment
styles, everyone has a differentattachment style based on their
(21:31):
own personal history. And whenit comes to relationships and
projection, that aspectattachment styles and and what
serves you in your need ordisdain for attachment.
Oh, yeah. That's that's that'sright there.
Eric Bomyea (21:53):
Alright. So let's take this into the dream world.
Right? So we talked a lot about,like projections in the real
world, right? And how we canleverage our awareness and
curiosity to do some deepintrospective work.
Now let's talk about our dreams.How can men start to bring in
that same awareness andcuriosity into the dreams to see
(22:15):
where projection might be andwhat that might be telling us?
Gregory Ganymedes (22:18):
Hell yeah. I was holding on to this part two
to your your question of how dowe know what that we're
projecting? Part one is thefeeling, but part two is
actually the dreams too. Ourdreams will tell us exactly
what's happening when we areprojecting, because these are
(22:39):
the parts of ourselves that theycan only express themselves
through what we are feeding it.So the people that we know, the
places that we've been, theseare these are the kind of stock
characters and and settings thatwe provide to these unconscious
(23:01):
parts of ourselves that when wedream, they can put those on and
then look right back at us.
And so in a projection like apositive sort of projection, I
very often have dreams where,I'm working with Female co
(23:27):
worker of mine who I who I knowin waking is very much like a
trusted confidant here to myselflike someone who I feel is a
true, like, comrade to me. Veryand very often it it is a woman.
And so I know in dreams when I'mdreaming about this particular
(23:48):
coworker and working with her,because it's always her for some
reason for me, it's it's thisreally nice way of saying, I
really do like working with thisperson, and I really do trust
them. And I also need to trustmyself. I also need to have that
(24:11):
that relationship in in aninterior way.
I'm throwing this out at thisperson, and when I close my eyes
and that part of myself wants tostep forward, it puts on this
this persona for me. And that'sthat's a positive. That's a nice
sort of projection and itprompts me to say, what is it
(24:35):
about, my coworker that I reallydo admire and that I really do
like and how can I pull thatinto my own my own work in the
office or in my relationships orin being a good coworker with
other people?
Eric Bomyea (24:55):
So in that example, like, the the dream is speaking
to you and you're listening, andthen you're getting curious
about like, okay, like, it'sspeaking this thing to me. It's
presenting this character to me.Let me bring in a question of
like, why is this personpresenting themselves? What is
it about this person that iseliciting? Because in the dream,
(25:15):
like, can you imagine that youwere having a positive feeling
in the dream and that was anindicator that this is a
positive character, that thismight be a positive projection?
Gregory Ganymedes (25:25):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I've I've
even had dreams with thesecoworkers where they'll be like,
the good female coworker andthen the bad female coworker in
the same dream. And I'm thinkingof one in particular where it
starts out where I'm kind ofworking with the bad female
coworker, and I'm just trying mybest to, like, stay on top of my
(25:50):
work and don't let anything fallthrough the cracks.
Don't give her any, like,ammunition to use against me
because she's out to get me orwhatever. And then I see my good
coworker, you know, afterhaving, you know, gone above and
beyond for the bad one, and Ijust see her and we just hold
each other and we like give eachother a big bear hug. We're
like, oh my god. I didn't knowyou'd be here. We like hug each
(26:11):
other.
So yeah. A % the feeling isthere.
Eric Bomyea (26:15):
Yeah. So there's a distinct feeling between that
that one character to the othercharacter and then being able to
kind of like develop thatrelationship. And again, being
curious of like, why are youhere right now? Like, what what
message do you have for me? Andand getting curious about that.
Timothy Bish (26:31):
Well, and just so that I taking it back one step.
There in order for it to be aprojection based on the
definition that we gave earlier,there's still an underlying
belief. Right? And so I guessI'm curious, like, the good and
the bad coworker are projectionscoming from that same belief. Is
is that belief your idea of whatit means to be a good coworker?
Gregory Ganymedes (26:56):
Such a good question. Dang. Yes. It it is
that. It is also my own sense ofinherent value in myself, I
think, that I'm projecting ontomy coworkers when and I think
that dream in particular, tokind of really really try to get
(27:17):
this out there cohesively.
That dream it just juxtaposedthe two of them to say, here is
a coworker, the bad one. Inwaking life, I feel like this
coworker does not value me. Andso when I don't value me, I get
(27:38):
defensive. I feel vulnerable andI want to lash out or I want to
just run away. I don't want themto see me.
I don't want any attention drawnto me by this bad coworker
because I don't trust them. Butthis is my own projection of my
own insecurity of how how muchvalue I'm providing to my work
(27:58):
environment and how much of a, acompetent employee I am. Whereas
the good coworker is areassurance of my value and my
competence. And without havingme have to prove myself with a
track record and my yearlyreview process, this person just
(28:20):
naturally saw the inherent valuein me as a fellow human being,
you know, without all of the thedata. It's important.
The parts of me that there areparts of okay. There are parts
of me that are biased towardsthat. I'm a person who feels
(28:42):
that it is better for people tovalue each other regardless of
what the other person providessociety, a workplace, the
family. I don't care. Everyperson matters and has value.
And then there are parts of methat I have distance from myself
(29:04):
that says, some people are ofmore value than others. Some
people have more power overother people. And when I am
presented with opportunities orsituations where I am in power
over an or I have some sort ofpower dynamic with another
person, I have an advantage ofthat. I can kind of I don't
(29:30):
know. This is my unconsciouspoint now.
I don't know what happens, and Ihave to work on that, because
this is part of myself that I'vereally cut off.
Timothy Bish (29:39):
Well, so it sounds like the like the the good
coworker, bad coworker example,those feel like value judgments,
right? Based on what youmentioned earlier, like this
bias of what you think is goodor bad, it also then sounds like
each of these characters arerepresenting something that is
(30:00):
true. Like, because, you know,like things things that you are
capable of doing, ways that youare capable of being. And so so
then part of that projection is,well, I like it when I'm these
things, and I don't like it whenI'm these things. I like it when
other people are these things,and I don't like it when other
people are these things.
And therefore, now I'veprojected on to you characters
(30:22):
in my dream, bad and good.Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
I know that, like, I'm new tothis, so I want to, like, nuts
and bolts. Thank you. Thank you.Thank you.
Eric Bomyea (30:31):
I love it. And thank you, Gregory, for being so
vulnerable with, like, lettingus into this experience and
presenting these biases for us,right? They're very relatable. I
can relate to them and I'm suremany people can. And so I just
want to thank you for allowingus in to this experience and the
strength to have done the innerwork to get to this point.
(30:55):
I just want to recognize that,right? Like this is not easy.
What Gregory just did letting usin like that and being so self
aware, right? Like I strive forthat, Right? And you're here
presenting it as a reallypowerful way of like taking
ownership again, going back tothis word of ownership.
You're taking ownership of thereis a bias in you of like, you
(31:17):
have a certain way that youbelieve people should be
treated, but you also recognizethere's this other part of you.
Right? That may be a little bit,like, shadowier and a little bit
more, like, whatever it mightbe. And it's, just, like,
saying, like, hi. I see you.
I haven't fully explored youyet, but like, I'm going to. And
so I just I just love that and Ilove, you know, the the
(31:38):
awareness that you brought tous. So
Gregory Ganymedes (31:39):
thank you.
Timothy Bish (31:40):
Well, this is an example of the importance of
men's work, right, so that westart bringing awareness,
conscious awareness to theseparts of us. And then I think
why queer men's work is also soimportant because I think we
have been given a lot of notionsthat we might be walking around
with. These programs that mightbe running unconsciously about,
like, what it is or how it iswe're supposed to be. And I
(32:01):
think that we see that, youknow, manifest in a lot of
different ways. And so I knowthat there has been a lot of
projection in our queercommunity about, like, well, if
you're gonna be gay or if you'regonna be queer, like, you should
do it this way and that, like,this is this way is better than
this way or, you know, and Ithink it's not until right now
(32:21):
that I was really hit with, oh,that's that's, you know, a lot
of projection and something thatwe could look at and be like,
well, is that just because I'vebeen told, you know, or that I
felt safe in in this way so thenI like, that became a program
that I started running.
And so it feels like it'sopening up the like, a a lot of
possibility for healing when webecome aware of, oh, maybe I'm
(32:45):
not mad at that person becausethey've chosen to dress, in a
very different way than I amdressing. Maybe maybe I'm just
noticing that it's bumping upagainst an old pattern. And when
I become aware of that pattern,I get to decide, is that serving
me? Do I want to keep thisanymore? And I would say,
Gregory Ganymedes (33:05):
have
Timothy Bish (33:05):
to imagine that it isn't like a it's not like
turning off the record player,right? Be like, I see the record
spinning and I have to keepreminding myself because it's
gonna keep playing until until Ibreak that habit, right? So this
feels all like reallyempowering, if if not maybe a
little daunting.
Gregory Ganymedes (33:23):
And I'm really I'm really glad that you
brought up that word healingbecause as I hear you both
talking about, you know, themandate to take ownership of
these parts of ourselves. Theseare really painful, really
(33:44):
vulnerable, sad, lonely parts ofourselves. And so it's not so
much that okay. It is a bothend. It is a both.
Yes. We are causing harm toother people in our projections
unknowingly to ourselves. And wehave been harmed ourselves,
(34:11):
which is what can be behind theprojection. And so like what you
were just lifting up, Tim, isthat, again, with the example of
someone changing the way theydress. You've come to know this
person.
You rely on them. The version ofthem that you've known for all
(34:32):
these years. There's somethingabout that person and the way
they look that does somethingfor you that gives you some sort
of sense of validation oraffirmation. And then when they
change, it's gone. And suddenlyyou're faced with that.
(34:58):
That person is still thatperson. What was it about the
way that they were presenting toyou that you were able to lean
on that? That it it gavesomething to you that you
needed, that you couldn't getyourself, that you couldn't
produce within yourself, thatyou needed that other person to
provide you with that visual orthat that constancy. Now that
(35:20):
it's gone, where is it gonnacome from? Suddenly that
relationship has changed.
And it's up to you to realize,wow, this person is
authentically an autonomous,fully rounded human being and
not just a character in mystory.
Eric Bomyea (35:40):
That's really powerful because as I was
sitting with that example of theallowance of somebody to change
and shift, my projections are away for me to maintain
consistency and order in mylife. And so if I'm projecting
out onto somebody this certainimage and then all of a sudden
(36:04):
that image changes, that cancreate an incredible amount of
insecurity in my life, anincredible amount of
uncertainty, unsafety, somethingcould shift. If I was dependent
on that thing to be consistentand I don't have a relationship
with change that I can allow forthings to change and shift and
be that. And for people to betheir own beings and not just be
(36:29):
characters in my life, like,yeah, I can definitely see how
this can be hard, lonely, scarywork.
Timothy Bish (36:37):
I mean, I have to imagine that our projections,
that one of the purposes thatthey serve was to keep us safe.
Right? Is is that is that apossibility? I mean, it sounds
to me like we got we we weregiven an understanding of the
world, and maybe we wereprojecting onto people around us
(36:59):
because that's what we thoughtwas gonna keep us safe.
Gregory Ganymedes (37:02):
Yeah. Whether it was explicit or not,
something was programmed into usto say that this part of you
should be rejected. And then ifyou see it in other people, you
should chastise them. When itcomes to I mean, I've had to
(37:24):
deal with this when it comes toableism with the word healthy. I
come from a family of of, youknow, professionals from the
health world and to kind ofrelearn what it means to let a
(37:50):
person be healthy in the waythat that is right for them and
not just to mandate for them andsay, okay.
Well, if you do not fit in thisbox, then you are not healthy.
And then I have the right tothen chastise you for doing
whatever, eating whatever, ornot going to whatever fitness
(38:11):
program. That's just anothersort of flavor of projection. So
this is something that wasingrained in me that I'm
projecting out there that I hadto kind of withdraw and say to
myself, okay. Stop.
Stop getting so upset aboutthese about these things. This
(38:32):
is really about me. This isabout me. But we also have to be
aware that we are someone else'sprojection all the time.
Timothy Bish (38:42):
Mhmm.
Gregory Ganymedes (38:43):
And that people are gonna get
disappointed in us. People aregoing to become angry with us,
or people are going to favor usamong other people too because
of their own projections. And soif if you know that's happening
(39:07):
and when you know that'shappening, there's kind of that
duty to to bring it intoconsciousness. And sometimes say
to this person, I know you'vealways known me to do this sort
of thing. I've always done thisfor you, or I've always been
this sort of person to you.
(39:28):
But there's just so much more tome, and this person that you
might have in your mind of who Iam could be an idealized version
of me, or there's something thathappened to you and you're
really hurt about it and andsometimes you want to make me
(39:48):
responsible for that, or youwant me to be the person who's
going to fix that for you, oryou want me to be the person who
you can be angry at because Imatch this this projection. And
that that's also tough. So notonly are we throwing these
things out there, we're therecipients of them as well a %.
Eric Bomyea (40:12):
That hits really, really deeply because like
that's been some of the thingsthat I've struggled with the
most is like feeling put insideof a box by other people. That
it's like, oh, you areprojecting something onto me and
you are not allowing me to be aperson. You are not allowing me
to be who I am, and you'resaying I have to be this certain
(40:34):
way that I can't change, that Ican't shift, that I have to fit
your model, your perception. Andit's like, it's suffocating.
It's stifling.
And I know that now I can takethis feeling of of of feeling
stuck in this box of being stuckas somebody's projection. I can
use that empathy when I'm doingit to other people. And I can
(40:58):
really start to bring awarenessto where in my life I might be
doing this subconsciously andstart to pull that tether back
and be like, it's not about thatperson. It's about me. So what
is it that I can work on onmyself to do the healing for
myself so that I can hopefullynot do as much projecting out?
(41:22):
Because now I I understand likehow it feels to be projected
onto. So thank you for that.
Timothy Bish (41:28):
So I'm curious. I'm sure that projection is
possible for all people in allplaces at all times. But I'm
wondering, do you believe thatour current culture where we
have a lot of shoulds, a lot ofbeliefs about what is right or
wrong, very clear boundariesabout what, like, what men are
(41:50):
supposed to do, what women aresupposed to do, like, what the
you know, do you think that thatmakes it easier to to project
and or how how might thatinfluence people who are looking
to bring awareness to thispattern in their life?
Eric Bomyea (42:08):
Tim with the big questions.
Timothy Bish (42:09):
I mean, yes. We're like, go for it. Welcome to the
podcast, everybody.
Gregory Ganymedes (42:15):
He said we're gonna go all in. So but I also
wanna say, Eric, what you werejust sharing is is beautiful,
and I think it is a uniqueexperience for queer men that
that we do hold So manyprojections Of other people, And
(42:37):
they don't realize they're doingit. We don't realize they're
doing it. There's a wholebehavior of of and kind of going
along with the projection thatwe do all the time because
sometimes it feels good andsometimes it grants us rewards
whether or not it's right orwrong. And so I think that kind
of ties into what what you'resaying, Tim, too, on a very kind
(43:02):
of global level.
I think we're in a time rightnow where we're realizing that
there really isn't so much clearduality between right and wrong.
And I think that's why so manypeople really wanna cling so
hard to these antiquated,concepts of what is acceptable
(43:25):
and what is not, because we'rereally entering an age where
liberation is is at the door foreveryone. Like, we are at a
moment where we have theopportunity to really be true to
who we are and see value in eachother. Here I go again with my
bias from my good coworkerdream. We're really getting
(43:48):
towards the good coworker.
She's right there. And when itcomes to projection, can we say
scapegoating? Can we talk aboutthe projection that comes into
play with scapegoating and forus as queer people, how that
comes into play? I think, yes,projection is that. And I guess
(44:09):
it is kind of like a It's it'sin vogue right now to kind of,
take these very, hypocriticalstances that we see from, pretty
narrow minded people saying, youknow, scapegoating the queer
(44:29):
community community saying theyare all the people who bring in
all these bad things, and thenthere's like a whole list of all
the bad things that queer peopledo.
And then it's pretty trendy forfolks online to be like you're
projecting because these areactually the things that you
guys are doing that you'reprojecting onto us. Okay. Fine.
(44:50):
You can call that out if youwant to. And, yeah, it's true.
The reason they do that isbecause it is unconscious.
They're they're taking theirthings that they want to devalue
in themselves, how they canexploit vulnerable populations
(45:10):
of people and not really sufferthe consequences. And then they
say that queer people are doingthat, that we are the ones who
are going after vulnerablepeople and changing their
genders on them or, you know,doing some sort of diabolical
thing, which is really thesedisowned parts of themselves
(45:32):
that they want to do to us,where we say, hi, This is me.
This is who I am, and this iswhat I want to be. And they say,
nope.
And then they cut us off. We arewe don't have the same amount of
power and agency that that a lotof these, wealthy people do,
especially in government. Andso, yes, it is a projection. It
(45:56):
is scapegoating. We have to beaware of it when it happens, and
also know that it comes fromtheir own sad, lonely, hurt
places too even though it'shurting us.
Timothy Bish (46:14):
Well, and going back to where we started
originally, like, the the signthat we can look for is this big
emotion. And so we can look forthat in ourselves. When I am
experiencing a big emotion, itis an opportunity for me to
become curious about whatprogram is running and what
beliefs I'm projecting onto asituation or a person. It sounds
(46:34):
like we can also then take thatand become aware, oh, if if this
person or group of people infront of me are presenting with
big emotions, I can also becurious about what might be
happening for them. And eventhough it might be impossible
for me to know precisely howthey are projecting and if
they're projecting onto me, Ican at least think, oh, well,
(46:58):
this is the the causes underwhich projection is likely to
happen.
And then maybe giving myselfsome context for they just
treated me this way or or thisseries of events just unfolded
and then I have a possibility ofcontext.
Eric Bomyea (47:16):
Exercise and empathy. Like bringing in that
of like, oh, if this group isprojecting onto me and I'm
recognizing that, I could clapback. I could tell them, oh,
you're just projecting onto me.But then I actually might be
(47:37):
fitting into one of theirstereotypes. I might be fitting
into one of the things thatthey're actually stereotyping me
about.
And they'd be like, see, I toldyou. I told you you were exactly
like that. You did exactly thething. Versus allowing it to be
an opportunity to be like, oh, Ican empathize with this person.
By experiencing their intenseemotion right now, I can kind of
relate to where they might becoming from and what they might
(48:00):
be needing in that moment.
And if I was in that case, Idon't need somebody to be, like,
pointing at me and being like,oh, you're just projecting onto
me. I don't need that.
Timothy Bish (48:10):
I mean, feels like one possibility. It also feels
like a possibility that I mightobserve people in a big emotion,
get a sense of what they mightbe projecting, and then choose
to move myself away from thatsituation. Absolutely. So I keep
thinking about I don't I don'tthink I saw a lot of queer
people represented at theJanuary sixth insurrection, for
(48:32):
example.
Gregory Ganymedes (48:33):
At least not openly queer.
Timothy Bish (48:34):
Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so I I feel like as as
someone as someone who is openlyqueer, maybe like, oh, I I'm
recognizing something. I'm notsure that I'm safe.
But, like, my choice would be Ishould remove myself from this
place. I should go I should go.So I think that recognition can
be a powerful tool for awarenessand potentially empathy, but
(48:57):
sometimes for self preservationand safety too. Like and then
maybe I can empathize later whenI'm, you know
Eric Bomyea (49:02):
I think it goes back to the what you mentioned
earlier about, like, like,projection, judgment, intuition,
they're kind of all tightlyentwined here.
Gregory Ganymedes (49:11):
A %.
Eric Bomyea (49:12):
And it's like, okay, is that an intuitive ping?
Is that a projection? Is that ajudgment? Right? And I think,
regardless of how it'sclassified, it comes back to
again and again and againawareness that it's happening,
and then curiosity, what is ittrying to tell me?
Yeah. And then taking consciousaction on that based off of what
(49:33):
will serve me and my safety orpurpose the best in this moment.
Yeah. On that note, we havecovered a lot of ground today.
And so I just wanna do a littlecheck-in to see how complete
we're feeling.
So and then if there's any lastareas that we want to explore
before we close out. So, Tim,I'll start with you. How are you
(49:56):
feeling?
Timothy Bish (49:57):
I feel good. I feel I feel complete. Feel
complete. Gregory?
Gregory Ganymedes (50:00):
Do we have to stop?
Eric Bomyea (50:04):
Truly, this is this is better.
Timothy Bish (50:06):
I mean, I believe that I believe that if you are
not familiar with the concept ofprojection, I feel like now, I I
personally feel much clearerabout it, how it operates, and
how I can start to work with it.
Eric Bomyea (50:19):
Yeah, mean, I started this episode saying
like, I'm a novice, right? Istill feel a novice, but at
least I have way more contextand I can start to see how
important it is to recognizethese things in my own life.
Like, I'm I'm committed to myown healing, and I'm committed
to being the best possibleversion of myself. And I now
(50:39):
believe that this is a hugecomponent of that, of, like,
recognizing where is it in mylife that I am projecting? Where
where is it that people areprojecting onto me?
And just, like, working throughthat. Like, I definitely can see
how this is this is gonna bereally big takeaway conversation
(51:02):
for for myself at least.
Gregory Ganymedes (51:04):
And write down those dreams Yeah. My
friends. Write down your dreamseven if it's just a little
tidbit or even who was Idreaming about because that will
pull the veil right away, ofwhat are you putting on to other
people? What is this otherperson doing for you in your
life? And so yeah.
Eric Bomyea (51:26):
With that, that's reminder that you can find
Gregory with the Queer Men'sDream Circle. Do you wanna do a
little bit more information onthat for our for our listeners
in case anyone wants to join infor there?
Gregory Ganymedes (51:37):
Thank you. Yes. I'd love to. Yes. I host
the Queer Men's Virtual DreamCircle.
You can get in touch with me onmy website. I have a little
handy dandy form there where youjust throw your email address at
me. My website istheganymedeproject.com. Ganymede
is spelled G A N Y M E D E. Youcan also find me on Instagram
(52:02):
the Ganymede project.
Throw me a DM. Just as long as Ihave your email address, I will
put you on my email blast andsend you the link. We do this
dream circle once every twomonths for the time being.
There's no cost to it. Noexperience necessary with
journaling your dreams.
But if you do have experiencewith journaling your dreams,
(52:25):
you're gonna get a lot out of itas well. It's for everyone, and,
it's a special placespecifically for queer men to to
come into the contact with theseparts of ourselves that we don't
always get to talk about withother folks. It's very special.
Eric Bomyea (52:40):
We're big proponents of journaling here.
So another another,recommendation for listeners,
not just your daily journalpractice, but also try try to
incorporate some dreamjournaling into it and see what
happens. See what comes up. Seewhat veils are are removed. So,
thank you very much for puttingyour offering out into the world
and for being a part of ourcircle here.
(53:03):
I'm I'm also feeling verycomplete now as well. So, Tim,
will you take us out, please?
Timothy Bish (53:08):
Absolutely. Let's close our eyes and take a deep
inhale through the nose. Agentle exhale through the mouth.
And it is with deep appreciationand gratitude for the shared
sacred space of insight,exploration, understanding,
discovery, awareness. That as weleave the circle, I wish
(53:29):
everyone listening safety,community, brotherhood, and
love.
And with these words, ourcontainer is open but not
broken.
Gregory Ganymedes (53:36):
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
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