August 14, 2025 • 49 mins
In this episode of The Circle, we explore forgiveness not as a final destination, but as a living, breathing process. From unspoken resentments to painful memories of being let down, Eric and Tim share personal stories about parental wounds and what it means to carry the weight of hurt for years.
This conversation unpacks:
- Why forgiveness isn’t the same as forgetting
- How resentment impacts our nervous systems and relationships
- The role of safety, grief, and compassion in the forgiveness process
- What it looks like to forgive without needing the other person to change
If you’ve ever struggled to let go of a grudge, or felt the pressure to "just move on," this one’s for you.
What’s one weight you’ve been carrying that might be ready to soften?
Practice with us and explore embodiment tools for relational repair:
👉 https://myembodiment.com
Chapter Markers / Time Stamps:
00:00 - Intro: Forgiveness as a Practice
01:00 - What Forgiveness Really Means
03:05 - Forgiveness ≠ Forgetting
06:42 - The Weight We Carry: Resentment and Memory
08:58 - Not Letting Go, but Lightening the Load
11:31 - When Forgiveness Isn’t Closure
13:30 - Parental Wounds and Resentment
15:50 - Reframing the Past: Seeing with Softer Eyes
18:10 - Tim’s Story: Turning Mom into Wonder Woman
20:42 - The Cost of Idealization and the Gift of Reality
24:30 - Bragging as a Search for Safety
27:25 - From Villainizing to Understanding
30:01 - Big Hurt, No Villain: How Forgiveness Actually Starts
33:40 - Beliefs that Block Forgiveness
36:15 - The Band Camp Story: When They Didn’t Show Up
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric Bomyea (00:05):
Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go
all in on men's work, embodimentpractices, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. Ifyou're enjoying the show, please
be sure to share your favoriteepisode and leave us a review.
And if you're curious about thework that we do and the
practices we've mentioned on theshow, head on over to
myembodiment.com, that'smyembodiment.com, to join our
new community. You can practicealong with us and people from
(00:27):
all over the world and ask usquestions about anything you've
heard us talk about on the show.Today, we're exploring
forgiveness, not just as a loftyidea, but as a lived, felt, and
sometimes painful practice.
Forgiveness for others,forgiveness for ourselves, and
how we navigate the spaces whereforgiveness hasn't been given
yet. Tim, are you ready to goall in?
Timothy Bish (00:47):
I'm ready.
Eric Bomyea (00:48):
Let's do this. So forgiveness is often defined as
setting aside negative emotionsand resentments. So I'm curious,
like, what does forgiveness meanto you?
Timothy Bish (00:58):
Thank you for that question. I think there is an
idea. And when I was looking atthis earlier today, the ability
to set aside anger, resentment,frustration, that hasn't really
been my experience. It has a fewtimes with forgiveness, moments
when, oh, with an understanding,I don't feel that way anymore.
(01:24):
But more frequently, almostalways, forgiveness isn't about
me not being upset aboutsomething.
It's not about me changing myopinion about what I think
happened or my experience of it.And instead, it has become more
of a reframe and understandingof a situation from a different
(01:48):
perspective. So when I thinkabout a situation that I found
upsetting, I don't need I'llgive an example. My mom not
coming to see a show when Ithought she was coming to see
it. I'm still sad that shedidn't come to see the show, but
(02:09):
forgiveness was about me kind ofrecognizing where she actually
was and the humanity of her andher experience and allowing that
to change how I held it, howengaged based on those things.
So for me, forgiveness isn'tthis magic removal of anger or
(02:34):
resentment or frustration, butrather a recognition of a
bigger, broader picture fromwhich I can make a more
conscious choice. I think withforgiveness, when people are
like, oh, you have to forgive,it feels like magical thinking.
Oh, well, just forgive them.Don't be upset anymore. And I
(02:58):
believe that forgiveness canreally exist with some of the
feelings still there.
I'm still sad you didn't come. Istill remember the the the
moment or the feeling or thecircumstance, But I've worked
(03:19):
through a process, and so nowI'm not going to punish you. I'm
not going to I'm going to seeyou in a softer light and still
be able to connect with you andnot let it become a hindrance to
what could still be parts of ourrelationship.
Eric Bomyea (03:35):
So if I'm hearing correctly, forgiveness not
forgetting. So it's a, I can bewith the emotion that I'm being
with. I can still hold it andhold onto it without it turning
into a resentment. It'ssomething that's like, Okay, I'm
not going to forget that thatthing happened. It's still part
(03:57):
of my life, still part of myexperience, still part of my
story.
It did happen, but I'm notholding it with as much
intensity as maybe I did becauseI brought in a other way to see
it that has helped to maybesoften maybe some of the the
intense emotions that werecoming around the event?
Timothy Bish (04:16):
Well, I like this question because I I almost
wanted to talk about forgetting.I don't adhere to the idea of
forgive, don't forget, butthat's mainly because I don't
think I can choose that almostever. You know, I think about
every time I've been through abreakup. Oh, if I could forget
(04:37):
right now, if I could walk overand, like, push the forget
button, I would absolutely doit. And so with the idea of
forgive, not forget, that soundslike a choice, but for me, that
hasn't been my experience.
The choice is, well, I can'tforget. So I'm not I'm not
(04:58):
remembering to keep you in linebecause people will say that
sometimes. They'll be like, I'llforgive, but I'll never forget.
Right? And, like, they even madethat joke on drag drag race.
At one point, I think it wasPearl who made that joke. And it
was funny, but, I'm like, well,I forgetting can be great if you
can do it, but can someone tellme the recipe to how to forget
(05:20):
something? And then the truthis, well, I probably if it
matters enough to me, I probablycan't forget it. So I have to
then engage in a process ofworking through forgiveness, and
that's gonna, in my opinion,deal with recognizing what
people were bringing and howthey were and capacity and all
(05:41):
that other stuff.
Eric Bomyea (05:42):
Yeah. I think the analogy of you're carrying a
weight. And so when a big momenthappens, when there is something
that feels like a betrayal orsomething that feels really big
where you do have a hard timeforgiving somebody, it's a
really heavy weight. And so I dobelieve that there is a little
(06:04):
connection here with resentment.So I'm carrying around a
resentment of some sorts, thebig heavyweight.
I feel slighted by this personor something happened. Not
considered. Not considered. Ifeel I'm holding onto this
resentment. And the work, if I'munderstanding correctly, doesn't
become to drop the weight.
(06:25):
It becomes to, can I reduce theheaviness of the weight? Can I
get it so that because thisweight is gonna be with me for
probably the rest of my life?
Timothy Bish (06:35):
Well, that's the whole point is that when we
think about forgiveness andwell, just let it go. Just
forgive. Just don't be upsetanymore. That to me is all
really ridiculous. I've neverI've never had the experience in
my life when something reallymattered that I also felt like I
had the option, opportunity to
Eric Bomyea (06:57):
do that.
Timothy Bish (06:58):
And believe me, if that had been there, I would
have taken it. So, yeah, then inusing your analogy, you're
holding a weight. And now that'spart of what I'm carrying. So I
can either add on to that weightwith, well, you should have done
this and blah blah. Or I canstart to take, well, what was
(07:22):
really happening?
And then I think sometimes it'sreally heavy. It's a heavy
weight because someone behavedbadly. This is so forgiveness
isn't about always gettingclosure. I think forgiveness is,
okay. Well, how can I see thisin a way that allows me to move
on as fully as I can with theleast amount of burden?
Eric Bomyea (07:45):
Right. Because if the burden is preventing you
from moving forward, then thatthing has become too big, too
important to all consuming inyour life. It is becoming
prohibitive. When you've builtup such a resentment or you're
holding onto this thing that ispreventing you from getting
(08:09):
ahead, you've to figure out someway to reduce the weight a
little bit. We're not asking tofully drop it.
I'm walking around this lifedragging a bunch of weights
behind me. There's no doubtabout that. There have been so
many things in this life that,yes, I've held resentments, I've
had them, I had those bigintense things that I'm like, I
will never forgive you for this,for this slight. And there were
(08:32):
times that prevented me frommoving forward in my life,
right? Like I'm blaming mymother for not showing up to
something.
Yeah. Like very similarly, mymom didn't show up to many
things in my life, and I heldonto that resentment for years.
And the way that manifesteditself into other areas of my
life because I was holding ontothis very heavy weight. Yeah.
(08:54):
I'd to So it's about like, okay,that weight will always be with
me.
I'm always going to rememberthat my mom didn't show up. But
at this point, it's not asheavy.
Timothy Bish (09:03):
I would like to talk about my mom because as a
young gay boy in my upbringing,I needed her to be basically
Wonder Woman. And, you know, mymy father was not not there and,
you know, any kind of otherfactors. So I did a lot of
(09:24):
ignoring, and I and I made mymom into this sort of perfect
thing because that's what Ineeded. I remember one time
being in college, I think it wasmy freshman year of college at
NYU, and walking, I think, downTenth Street, and I met up with
some other dancers, and we werewalking to the studio. And this
girl was like, Tim, you're beingso braggy about, like, how you
(09:44):
know, because I was I missedPittsburgh, so I was talking
about Pittsburgh like it wasincredible.
And Pittsburgh is incredible, bythe way. And I was talking about
my mom and about how incredibleshe was. She's like, oh,
Pittsburgh's so perfect, andyour mom's so perfect. It feels
really braggy. And that was oddfor me in that moment.
But then as I started gettingolder and recognizing my mom as
(10:07):
the actual human being that shewas rather than the Wonder Woman
I needed her to be in thatmoment, I feel as if I was able
to love more fully. Now thelittle gay boy in me needed a
protector, and so I think meturning her into Wonder Woman in
my mind was that. So I don'tregret doing that. But then when
(10:30):
I think about meeting her nowand my relationship that I've
had as an adult with her, Ithink it's important that I'm
able to see her as the personshe really was. And that means
recognizing when she was wrongand then going through a process
(10:52):
of forgiveness by seeing her asa human and trying to trying to
look at it from thatperspective.
Because the bottom line is shedidn't show up in any number of
ways, but she also did show upother times in other important
(11:13):
ways. And, you know, when wetalk about this stuff with our
parents, we're rarely like, oh,well, you know, mom came to
every performance of the HighSchool Musical, but she did. I
mean, we would do two weekends.I think it was Friday, Saturday,
Sunday, both for two weekends ina row. Very exciting time for us
if you're like a little musicaltheater nerd, you know, which I
(11:34):
absolutely was.
And she came to everyperformance. That was great.
Mhmm. But I'd like that doesn'tsit with me in the same way
like, oh, but this one time, youknow, when you didn't come to,
like, the final performance ofband camp, which was also really
true. Like, I'm like I remember,like, being upset and crying.
(11:55):
So it just helps to okay. I'mI'm certain I it allows me the
possibility of full vision orfuller vision and experience of
a person. Because I thinkotherwise, if I never forgive
you, it's easy for you to justbe all wrong. Be like, you're
(12:16):
all bad. And the truth is, well,most of us, that isn't really
true.
Eric Bomyea (12:22):
Thank you for sharing about your mother and
about how there was such anevolution that happened with
your understanding of who shewas, who she needed to be at
different parts in your life.Are you open to a clarifying
question? I am open. When youstarted your story, you said
that you were in New Yorkbragging about how perfect your
mother was. And then somethingshifted where you started to
(12:45):
realize that there wasn't asmuch perfection.
And so did it reveal hiddenresentments? At that point of
bragging about perfectPittsburgh, perfect mother, did
you truly believe that it wasperfect, or was there a masking
of a resentment that wassomewhere?
Timothy Bish (13:06):
Well, I'm not going to say there was a masking
of a resentment. In that momentwhen I was talking about
Pittsburgh and talking about mymom, I think I was really scared
and lonely, and those were boththings, people, places where I
felt safe, and I and I generallyfelt not safe. You know, I moved
(13:28):
to New York City with no money,very little support, and it's
yeah. I mean, some of thestudents at NYU were, like,
kinda dicks. You know?
And and and I get it. You, like,you show up at college, and you
wanna be the cool kid. You know,especially the people from
Southern California. I'm justgonna say this. So So I like LA
(13:52):
now, and I like SouthernCalifornia.
But when I moved to NYU thatyear, all of the dancers from
Southern California, I rememberthinking like, what is it about
that area? They're all beingassholes to me because I didn't
know remember one time someoneyelled at me because I didn't
know what DKNY stood for? AndI'm like, you don't know what it
means? Well, that is awful. Andif I were from Southern
(14:14):
California, I would yell at youand embarrass you.
No. Donna Karan, New York. I didnot know that.
Eric Bomyea (14:21):
Oh.
Timothy Bish (14:22):
It was, like, the label at the time, late
nineties. You know, it was a bigdeal. And I think I said DNKY.
Mhmm. My friend was like, do youknow what that stands for?
Yeah. So I I had, like, I had alot of learning that I needed to
do. Like, I didn't know Iremember I got made fun of one
time for not knowing they servedStarbucks coffee at Barnes and
Noble. I'm like, well, I neverwhat you talking about?
Eric Bomyea (14:44):
I had abortions growing up, so I wouldn't
Timothy Bish (14:46):
have known. Yeah. But also, like, also the way
that my life existed, like, Iwent to school, then I would
drive into the city to takedance class. I'm like, you know?
And it was just very like, oh,come on.
Like, this is what, like,everyone knows, so I felt very
unsafe.
Eric Bomyea (14:57):
Yeah.
Timothy Bish (14:57):
And so I'm like, I made some places I, like, I
amplified some places for thethe purpose of safety. And when
I went back to Pittsburgh, I hadfriends that would not talk to
me like that, that would notgive me a hard time or that they
would in different ways and youknow? And then my so, you know,
I was just I was trying tocreate safety. Yeah. So is there
(15:18):
a resentment there?
I mean, maybe. I don't know. ButI I know that in that moment, I
wasn't bragging to be betterthan anyone else. I think I was
bragging because I'm like, well,everyone else feels really
comfortable, or you appear to bereally comfortable, and I feel
super uncomfortable. And I'mjust trying to feel less
uncomfortable.
I have no money and no supportand no one like, everyone else
(15:39):
was you know? I remember I wouldbe one of the very few people
who would leave rehearsal inclass and go to work. I'm like,
oh, you all have parents sendingyou money and, like, people
coming to visit you. I mean, Ican't tell you how many times I
did performances at the school.You know?
You know, it would be, like,Friday and Saturday and part of
our curriculum. Almost I almostnever had anyone there.
Eric Bomyea (16:04):
Mhmm.
Timothy Bish (16:05):
And so at the end, you leave and, like, their kids
getting even, like, the, like,the little performances, like,
that didn't really matter. I'mlike, oh, you're getting
flowers. You're getting cards.You I'm like, you know, I
remember a teacher one time waslike, who came to see you? And
I'm like, no.
I'm just, you know, I'm I'm justno one I'm done. So, yeah, I was
looking for safety. So to thatperson who said that, then she
(16:27):
wasn't trying to be totallymean, but I'm like, I wasn't
trying to brag. I was just I wasjust trying not to feel terrible
and unsafe. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (16:35):
Very, very understandable in a situation
like that where it's like, youknow, there is a lot of judgment
and a lot of meanness beingdirected. So in those moments of
somebody doesn't show up to ashow, I can see how that creates
(16:56):
a sense of needing safety aswell. Right? Like, if that's the
reality, right? Like, yeah.
Like, I got to go find somethingthat makes me feel really good
because this feels really bad.And I can relate to that.
Timothy Bish (17:08):
Right. And I think this is important because I
think the the inability orunwillingness to forgive someone
is, I think, almost always bornof that. I feel so hurt and so
vulnerable.
Eric Bomyea (17:21):
Pointing at you. You were
Timothy Bish (17:22):
And, like and so the one of the things so here I
was, like, exaggerating my momor Pittsburgh. Like, but if I
can exaggerate how bad you are,how wrong you were when you did
that, then I can somehow feelbetter because it's the only
thing that's gonna make me feelbetter. Because the truth is
none of the stuff like, somethings don't change. Like, my
(17:44):
mom cannot go back and see thatperformance of that show that I
thought she was coming to, whichis different, by the way, than,
like, I I was less upset whenI'm like, well, you never said
you were coming. I wasn'tlooking for you.
Versus, like, you said you werecoming, I was looking for you.
But but now that's never gonnachange. So the part of us that
(18:56):
wants to hold on to, I need youto be really wrong or really
bad, chances are it's likebecause I there's a safety in
that. I feel a little bit safeat least knowing that I was the
good guy and you're the bad guy.
Eric Bomyea (19:10):
And is it okay to stay on that example? Sure.
Right? Like, so in that case,did I hear correctly that, like,
your mother signed up to say,like, I'm going to be there, and
she didn't, does that then makeher the the bad guy? Like, you
didn't uphold your commitment,so now I have a big feeling
about that.
Timothy Bish (19:30):
I don't think there was a blame. I think there
was a, why didn't you show up?My feelings are hurt. So in the
in the immediate, I had I had anemotion an emotional reaction to
what happened or didn't happen.And then it was years later that
I
Eric Bomyea (19:49):
had to work
Timothy Bish (19:49):
through and start to forgive that moment. I
carried that moment with me fora long time.
Eric Bomyea (19:58):
So it wasn't about villainizing, it was just like,
I have a really big hurt feelingthat is uncaring around. It's
not that, like, I think you're abad person, it's that I feel
bad. And like, the forgivenesswas like, can I forgive her?
Forgive myself? Like, what wasthe forgiveness worth then?
Timothy Bish (20:20):
Well, I mean so I think I think we don't wanna get
stuck on a particular examplebecause I do think there is
value in forgiving someone fromyour perspective who was a bad
actor. Right? And that isn't Ithink my mom was being a little
bit complacent and nonresponsivein in some ways that I think
(20:45):
matter. But, the forgivenesswork is about, okay. Well, I had
hurt.
I had sadness, and I felt like Iwasn't a priority, and that that
had a lingering impact on me,and how long do I wanna carry
that? It's not about I needed tolabel her behavior. I think I
(21:06):
did label it initially as like,well, you don't you clearly
don't care about me because youdidn't show up. But, like, that
isn't that isn't the I didn't Ineed that. I needed to recognize
that I was carrying somethingthat I don't want to
Eric Bomyea (21:23):
be carrying anymore. What gets in the way
sometimes of that, of being ableto start dropping that weight to
move forward? What does one needto do from feeling like I'm
holding onto this thing? I havea big hurt. I have a big
feeling.
It's connected to somebody.Mhmm. And I'm trying to let it
(21:45):
go. I'm trying to reduce theweight of it, and I just can't.
So what what
Timothy Bish (21:49):
I think it's beliefs. I think it's beliefs. I
think it's in that moment, Ibelieved so, okay, at the end of
every band camp, there was afinal, like, a final show where
the parents would come. Theywould all or the guardians would
come. They would watch the show,and then they would drive
everyone home, and, like, bandcamp was over.
And now we had this thing thatwe would continue to practice
(22:09):
and rehearse, but you know? Andso for two years when I was in
middle school, I drove up everysummer with my mom to see my
sister. And then for the twoyears that my sister and I were
both in the band together, mymom would also come. So the
first year that it was just me,my mom opted not to come. And so
I remember thinking, well, youdon't I'm not important enough
(22:31):
for you to come see just me, butJen was important enough because
you came to see just her, and Iknow because you dragged me with
you.
And so that was I that was abelief connected to a feeling
that I had. And I think it wasvalid because I saw you show up
for someone else, and you're notshowing up for me. And then I
(22:53):
had this whole feeling about it.I remember I started crying a
little bit. I tried to hide itbecause I was in high school at
the time and you know?
But, like, oh, I just I I can'tbelieve you're not here. Right?
But then so then I look back.So, obviously, space really
matters and get some space, andI had the luxury of many years.
And and then you recognize,okay.
(23:14):
Well, what was really happeningwas my sister was the problem
child with all the challenges,and I had this image of being,
like, the good boy. I thinkeveryone kind of agreed I needed
less coddling or, you know,whatever. And, you know, and I
(23:36):
then I think my mom has a fewfew qualities. Some of those are
a little bit of desire to relax.I might call that laziness.
And I love you, mom. And she'snot listening to this anyway, it
doesn't matter. And and so thatthat confluence of factors was,
like, came together in thatmoment. It's like, oh, I
(23:56):
actually do think you care aboutme now with some perspective,
but I also understand why I feltlike you didn't then. And still,
if if she called me right now,I'd say, I really I really wish
you would come.
I felt bad that you didn't come.But I'm not I'm not there's not
a charge there for me anymorewith her about it because, oh,
well, your marriage was in theplace it was in. Your life was
(24:20):
in the place it was in. Youwere, you know, newly focused on
your eldest child daughter goingto school. Like, lots of
concerns that that weren't frontof mind for me.
What was front of mind for mewas my experience, which is I
just finished band camp, and youshould be here. Yeah. My mom I
(24:42):
realize now, like, my mom isprobably freaked out about my
sister going to school because Ithink she inherently knew, like,
my sister was not the kind ofperson who's, like, good at
going far away from home. Andalso, I love you, Jen. Like, I
think she would absolutely agreewith that statement.
And fun fact, like, the entiretyof time since I left high
(25:04):
school, they have always beenvery near each other and, like,
lived together. So much, infact, that my sister moved to
Myrtle Beach. My mom my stepdadfollowed. So I think that's a
totally accurate thing. Andyou're like, oh, so you were
probably terrified about that,and you never told me.
So all I know is that you didn'tcome to the show. Mhmm. And that
(25:24):
had a feeling.
Eric Bomyea (25:25):
Of course. And I really love how you're able to
bring in It's almost a matter offact, like this is just what
happened, right? Like it'sacknowledging that, yes, there
was a big emotion. There was abig feeling, but this is what
happened. And the ability to beable to say the emotion was
there, it's not as big anymore.
Timothy Bish (25:48):
Of the practice of forgiveness. Right? Like,
because I had to start to wrapmy head around, I still believe
my mom should have come. I Ibelieve that. But is that
helping me in my currentrelationship with her, which is
the only time I have left?
Right? So how we interact now iswhat I've got. So what I wanna
(26:12):
what am I gonna do with whatI've got? I'm gonna am I gonna,
like, either outright orsubversively, punish her for
this thing. And then, of course,you know, we're talking about
this one example about, like,band camp.
You guys are like, this matterto me, but but it's also well,
all these other times. Right?And and it's like, well, if what
(26:33):
I wanna do is maximize my time,my experience, then maybe it is
important, it behooves me to notbe carrying stuff that isn't of
service. And the recognition andthe space that you've been able
to create to recognize that,yeah, I still have this belief.
Eric Bomyea (26:54):
I still have this opinion that she should have
done something differently. ButI can recognize that that piece
of my history still exists, thatbelief still exists, and I can
choose at that point to say, I'mnot going to allow that to
interfere with the time that Ihave with her. I'm going to
(27:16):
engage with her in a way that Ican set that aside. I'm working
towards forgiveness to be ableto say, This weight is much less
heavy. I can put it aside.
It's not in my face carrying itaround. Yeah.
Timothy Bish (27:30):
I mean, this also goes for self forgiveness. So,
you know, another story I mayhave told on this podcast, I
can't remember, but I there wasthis guy in middle school, high
school who lived across thestreet from me who would very
frequently make fun of me forbeing gay. And there were there
(27:54):
were coming phases when itwould, like, be more intense or
less intense. I I was neverreally afraid of him that he was
gonna, like, beat me up oranything, but it would be, like,
pretty frequent harassment. Andone time, I I clapped back in
front of his mom actually andbecause he was fat, and I called
him fat.
And I I I still feel bad aboutthat. There's still moments
(28:15):
where I'm like, and so mypractice in that moment was,
okay, Tim. Was that the mostcompassionate or skillful thing
that you could have said in thatmoment? No. But was anyone else
modeling how I should have doneit?
You know, when I'm when Irealize now, I'm like, I'm
(28:37):
talking about when I'm maybe intenth grade. Mhmm. How old are
we? We're 15, 14 years old, And,you know, everyone is, you know,
magically ignoring the fact thatI'm clearly a homosexual and,
you know, all all this stuffand, like, all you know,
teachers and parents allowingpeople to, like, make fun
because they're trying totoughen you up and not be a
sissy and you know, whatever.And so I I clap back.
(29:00):
And so then when I when Ibecause it still happens, but
rarely, where I'm like, oh,yuck. That was, like, kinda
gross. It's like, yeah. But Ihave to forgive that Tim for for
being a little unskillfulbecause he was doing the best he
could. I also have toacknowledge and reward that Tim
(29:22):
for finally setting a boundary.
You know? Was it the mostskillful boundary? Absolutely
not. But, oh, am I gonna am Igonna just be a punching bag for
you? No.
So the the process offorgiveness is, I think, a
recognition of what actuallyhappened, and and then how does
(29:43):
someone take that to to framehow they feel about it now, and
then make choices from thatplace. And there's a freedom.
Mhmm. So when I think aboutthat, I'm like, you were just
doing the best you could in aworld that was allowing you to
be attacked verbally mostly,like, attacked verbally on the
(30:08):
regular, and so you had oneskillful, like, lash out. One
unskillful lash out is what Imeant to say.
One unskillful lash out. Yeah.It'd be better if you didn't
have that, but
Eric Bomyea (30:20):
I love that that being able to see either you or
somebody else who's doing thebest that they can do at that
time and allowing it to reframethe way in which we view that
event. And so it really is it'sa very objective look at
(30:41):
something because what I feel alot of the times is things that
I'm holding a resentment or areally big charge with, it's
that I'm only looking at it frommy very small perspective. It's
like, this is exactly how I sawit. This is exactly how I saw
you behaving or me behaving inthis scenario. And it's the
(31:03):
pulling back, it's the zoomingout, it's the ability to pause
and recognize that this is notjust one perspective of the
event, but there are severalperspectives of the event that
can make it look a littlesmaller.
You're just looking at somethingstraight on, like, yeah, it can
look massive. But then you,like, look at it from another
angle, like, oh, that's not asbig as I thought. Okay.
Timothy Bish (31:24):
So in my yoga teacher training, one of my
teachers but they they bothagreed to this idea. They they
would say everyone's alwaysdoing the very best they can
with what they've got at anygiven time. And then, you know,
they were it's Jeeva Mukti, andthey were super vegan. You know?
(31:44):
Ahimsa non harming.
And so I remember at one point,we're watching all these movies
about the meat and dairyindustry and how, like,
destructive it is and how cruelit is and how bad for the
environment it is and, you know,whatever. And and then we were
reminded of that teaching, and,you know, there's this company
(32:05):
called Monsanto. Mhmm. So forpeople who aren't familiar with
Monsanto, it's a, you know,farming food industry company.
I'm gonna leave it there.
That many who have strongly heldbeliefs would argue is not
virtuous. Do you have anythingto add to that? It's anyway, so
(32:28):
the idea that our teacher said,you have to remember that
everyone's doing the best theycan at any given time, and she
said that will include the theCEOs and the, you know, the
upper echelon of this of thiscompany at Monsanto. And I
remember pausing in that momentand thinking, oh, you're
advocating compassion for for acompany that is at odds with
(32:53):
things you with strongly heldbeliefs.
Eric Bomyea (32:55):
Mhmm.
Timothy Bish (32:58):
And then I was like, okay. So if that is if
that's true and we're all doingthe best we can at any given
time, that doesn't mean we don'tget punished for really bad
behavior or that there aren'tconsequences to what we're
doing. But can that provide mecan even the consideration of
that being possible provide mewith some space to consider
(33:21):
something from a differentperspective? And then then I get
to that place where I thinkabout all the times I've done
something that I wish had beenbetter. Sometimes I wish I wish
I hadn't done that.
Other times, I wish I had donethat more skillfully. I wish I I
wish I had spoken up sooner. Iwish I had said it, you know, at
(33:45):
all. And then you think, okay.Well, I have made so many
mistakes in my life, as haveyou, as have everyone.
You know? Does that make me allbad? Does that disqualify me for
trying another thing orattempting to be a better
(34:09):
person? No. Of course not.
If we all stopped every time wefailed, then we'd already be
done. Right? We have to keepgoing.
Eric Bomyea (34:16):
But I think this is where forgiveness comes in so
handy. Right? Because withoutit, those resentments that we're
carrying around either toourselves or to others will
prevent our perception ofourselves or from others from
evolving, from being able tosay, Oh, you had one unskillful
moment. Right? If I'm stillholding on to that, I am keeping
(34:37):
you in that moment, and I'm notallowing you to move forward.
Through forgiveness, I'mallowing you to move forward.
I'm allowing myself to moveforward that that thing
happened. Right. It's not aboutforgetting. It's about
forgiveness so that we can moveforward so that I can allow you,
I can allow me to be the nextiteration of myself.
Timothy Bish (35:00):
I'm getting excited, Simba, to make an
Olympic reference. But what I'mhearing you say is that one
moment can have an impact. Itdoesn't necessarily color our
entire lives. So we we dosomething unskillful. Does not
mean, well, you did that onething unskillfully, so you're a
(35:22):
bad person and you're forever abad person.
Right?
Eric Bomyea (35:25):
But that's where resentment can come in is that
if somebody thinks that or ifyou think that about yourself,
if you attach a resentment tothat without forgiving it, it
will. It will keep that personplanted in that moment.
Timothy Bish (35:36):
Totally, which is why then the practice of
forgiveness would be therecognition that one one moment
doesn't necessarily, like, colorthe entirety of the rest of your
of the rest of your life. So theexample that I wanna use, and
I'm pretty sure this is right,but we'll have to Google check
it. Tanya Harding Mhmm. Was thefirst woman to ever land a
(35:59):
triple Axle in competition, andI'm pretty sure she did this at
the US National Championschampionships. This might have
been, like, in the, like, theearly to mid nineties.
Eric Bomyea (36:10):
First American woman to successfully land the
triple axle in a figure skatingcompetition. She achieved this
feat in 1991.
Timothy Bish (36:16):
1991. Great. And she went on to win the national
championship that year becauseof that feat, I think, over
Christie Yamaguchi and NancyKerrigan. I think, anyway, as as
Eric is googling. But the thingthat's important was so that's
that's an impressive achievementthat she was able to do.
(36:36):
I never remember her landing oneafter that in competition, and
it was not a thing that she hadin her back pocket. This is not
a criticism, Ms. Tanya Harding.It's just that, there's nothing
taking away the her capacitythat the fact that she did it,
But it didn't necessarily meanthat she was, like, the triple
(36:59):
Axel Queen. And so that's sortof the the the positive version
of, well, okay.
So I I insulted someone. I wasoverly harsh with someone. I
was, you know, fill in theblank. Well, it doesn't
necessarily mean that I'm anoverly harsh person that cannot
(37:21):
get out of that. It's like I canmake new choices, especially if
I can bring perspective andforgiveness and say, okay.
Well, we're all human. We allhave a bad day.
Eric Bomyea (37:30):
Yeah. I have harshness in me, but I myself am
not a harsh person. Detachingfrom it, we all have these parts
to us, every single person. Butwhen we don't allow those
experiences to evolve andchange, whether it's, I mean, we
see this all the time in One HitWonders or Tanya Harding, right?
(37:51):
It could be positive.
It could be that thing. But ifwe hold on to such a tight grip
of this is that person and wedon't allow them to change,
like, yeah.
Timothy Bish (37:59):
Just about Tonya Harding, I would say this. Yeah.
Totally. I would just say this.I think the first American woman
to ever land the triple axel incompetition, I thought she was
the first woman ever, but firstAmerican, still a big deal.
And then the expectation thatyou're now the person who can do
that, I think, actually workedagainst her as I think it does
(38:20):
for so many people. So now Ihave an expectation of you for,
like, being able to do this orfor being this person, and so
I'm looking for you to show upthat way. And this is another
thing about forgiveness. Sogoing back to the example of,
like, my mom, but any personwho, like, doesn't show up. And,
like, if I if I then set theexpectation of, well, you're the
(38:41):
person who doesn't show up forme, and I'm looking for that,
chances are I'm gonna findevidence to support it.
Eric Bomyea (38:48):
Amir says this all the time. If you are scanning
the horizon for tigers, that'swhat you're gonna find.
Timothy Bish (38:54):
Yeah. And so so why is forgiveness an important
act of self care even if thereisn't resolution or even if you
believe the person did dosomething wrong? It's because
how how impacted do you wantyour vision to be? How
influenced do you want yourperspective to be because of
(39:15):
this thing? Right?
So, you know, in men's work,authentic living and, you know,
clear full expression. Well, Iwant the clearest perspective
I've got to take into the, youknow, to the rest of my life. If
I'm if I'm constantly lookingfor people to not show up for
me, then I'm gonna probably findpeople who aren't gonna show up
(39:39):
for me. As soon as I becomeaware of that, then I can start
to make some change. And so, youknow, with when I think about my
mom to be like, if you were ifyou're just this woman who
didn't show up for me for thatshow, it will influence every
interaction we have.
So now that I've done some workaround that, when I talk to my
mom, I'm not holding that as athing that that is influencing
(40:06):
what I'm saying to her, how I'mshowing up with her. I clearly
haven't forgotten about itbecause we've spent an entire
episode talking about it, butbut it's it's not stopping me
from trying to be with my mom tothe extent that I can be with
her for the time that I haveleft with her.
Eric Bomyea (40:20):
And it gives space. It gives space to recognize that
it's still there. I mean, thishappens with, mom, I love you
too, but this happens quitefrequently with my mom, where
like she says something and ittriggers the fuck out of me. And
it just like, it takes me amoment because all those old
resentments will come back realfast. And then the work becomes
(40:42):
like, okay, can I bring in theperspective?
Can I drop the weight a littlebit? I take it down so that I
can be here in this moment andnot have to villainize her and
not have to be right and nothave to do all these things and
just forgive a little bit. Okay.Like, moving on. That happened
twenty years ago.
That happened three seconds ago.Whatever it might be. Right?
(41:04):
Trying to move forward.
Timothy Bish (41:05):
Yeah. And can someone do something that you
don't like or that you disagreewith without making them bad?
And I think that's a that's abig thing right now because we
haven't really been taught howto do that. And so it can be
easy to get latched onto what Ibelieve is right or what we
(41:28):
should have done or, you know,and this translates politically.
So I have some people in my lifethat hold very different ideas
about what we should be doingpolitically as a country.
Am I gonna let the fact that weclearly disagree about something
stop me from having arelationship with them on all
(41:51):
these other levels. So am Igonna go to a Trump rally with
you? No. Mhmm. I'm not.
But am I gonna let the fact thatyou voted for him stop me from
having dinner with you on, like,the rare visit? Maybe not. I
mean, then there's a lot offactors. So, like, for people
who are listening who have madethat decision, that's fine too,
(42:12):
but I also think chances arethere's more there. Right?
I wouldn't give up arelationship with my mother over
a Trump vote. To be clear, mymom did not vote at all, which I
guess is a slightly easier pillto swallow than if she had voted
for him. But but but when Ithink about, well, right now, I
(42:32):
have control over my life andthe relationship with my mom.
Now having said this, there aresome people I know who have very
legitimately cut ties because ofthings like that, so there's no
judgment here. But it's all it'sall a choice.
And so how conscious are weabout that choice? If I can
forgive, if I can bringperspective, then I'm more
(42:54):
likely to make a choice.
Eric Bomyea (42:56):
I think nuance here is authenticity. Like, yes, I
can forgive for certain thingsas best as I can, but is that
going to prevent me? Like, haveI truly forgiven enough so that
I can fully bring myself intothe conversation? Can I have
(43:19):
forgiven my mother enough that Ican actually be there with her
fully and without the need tohide anything? So if I'm out to
dinner with somebody that voteddifferently than I did, we have
a real big feeling about that,and I've done some forgiveness
work.
Okay. Cool. But am I stoppingmyself from being there in some
(43:43):
capacity? Because part two ofthis. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because thatto me feels like, I'm I'm just
gonna say it because I don'tknow the other words. So it's
not for it's not forgiveness andit's not forgetting, but it
almost feels like ignorance orignoring.
I'm gonna ignore this so that wecan be pleasant together. That
to me doesn't feel likeforgiveness.
Timothy Bish (44:05):
Yeah. No. I don't think I don't think ignoring is.
I think ignoring if we go backto the example of my mom,
ignoring is what I did for along time because it's what I
needed. It's very different thanclear recognition of what I
believe is true and dealing withand working with that.
Eric Bomyea (44:22):
And then being able to be in that moment with her as
fully as you can. Yeah. Yeah.Yeah. Exactly.
Yeah. And it sounds like there'sa lot that is revealed when
forgiveness enters the picture,both energetically, emotionally,
and also physically. Just beingable to let some things go, like
I can relate that and justphysically the feeling of the
(44:44):
burden, the weight of something,and then through forgiveness
practices, feeling a little bitlighter. And so what else do you
think changes when forgivenessenters in?
Timothy Bish (44:58):
I think that we get to start to let go of the
emotional charge connected towhatever the thing was. So I
know that there have beenmoments in my life that I will
probably always remember withsome emotional charge, but how
much control can that chargeexert over me? I believe that
(45:22):
starts to become softer and moremanageable through that process.
I was really hurt. I was reallyupset.
But with the process offorgiveness, I think we can
start
Eric Bomyea (45:35):
to soften that. Remind me of one practise we did
once that was a visualizationaround resentment clearing, and
it was holding this person whowe had a big charge against and
how there was this connection,there were these tethers, all of
(45:56):
these tethers that this personhad to me that prevented me from
moving forward. And so thepractice in that visualization
became like putting up a shieldalmost so that those tethers
that were coming in didn't havesuch a strong attachment. But
what I noticed was that eventhough that shield goes up, they
(46:18):
still wanna come in, andsometimes they'll make their way
through. And then it does becomethe practice of being like,
okay, releasing it, detaching itbecause they don't go away.
Yeah. Those big charges willalways be there in some
capacity.
Timothy Bish (46:33):
And I I think sometimes we don't even realize
that we also want them to
Eric Bomyea (46:37):
stay. Mhmm.
Timothy Bish (46:39):
So I if I'm connected to you because you've
done something wrong to me and Ihave a feeling about that, I'm
still connected to you. And, youknow, I think a a bolder but
scarier choice is to say, well,am I willing to be completely
disconnected? Am I willing tolose you? I think a lot of that
(47:03):
is why is it hard to forgivepeople? Well, because that would
forgiveness would be potentiallythe willingness to let go of the
resentment that's part of ouridentity and, you know, our MO
in this situation.
Oh, I need like, again, goingback to, like, I need to be the
good guy and you're the bad guy,but then I'm still connected to
(47:26):
you because, you know, when wethink about, like, movies and
comic books, the two the thehero and the villain don't need
to be in the same scene for usto know that they are in
relationship with each other.They are.
Eric Bomyea (47:37):
The identity becomes intertwined. I just had
this visual of, like, thinking,like, oh, that final moment of,
like, being able to, like,forgive is kinda like just,
like, blowing the dust if it'sthis hazy form of a person in
front of me. It really is. It'slike this person or this thing
has been with me my entire lifeor for however long I'm holding
(47:57):
onto this resentment or bigcharge, been holding onto it. So
it's become a part of myidentity.
And so it really does become avery scary thing to be like, Oh,
I may have to let this go. It'slike the dust, right? Like, Oh,
but then the air is cleared.
Timothy Bish (48:14):
Yeah, and then what's left?
Eric Bomyea (48:16):
But then am I alone? That's scary. Totally,
exactly. Exactly right. Well,thank you.
I want to just acknowledge youand appreciate you for the
vulnerable shares today and forworking through just a handful
of examples. I think we wentreally deep into those
experiences and I think theywere really helpful to
understand this complex topic.So I just want to acknowledge
(48:39):
you and thank you for for doingthat with us and and letting us
all in. So appreciate you. Iappreciate you.
And with that, I'm feeling verycomplete. Is there anything
you'd like to
Timothy Bish (48:47):
complete too.
Eric Bomyea (48:48):
Alright. Thank you. Yeah. Will you take us out?
Timothy Bish (48:50):
I will. Let's take a deep inhale and a gentle
exhale. And then with deepappreciation and gratitude for
any insights, awarenesses, orunderstandings that were gained
here in the shared sacred spaceof brotherhood that we now
release the archetypes and thespirits that we called in. And
as we leave the circle, I wisheveryone safety, community,
(49:12):
brotherhood, equality, and love.And with these words, our
container is open, but notbroken.
Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go
all in on men's work, embodimentpractices, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. Ifyou're enjoying the show, please
be sure to share your favoriteepisode and leave us a review.
And if you're curious about thework that we do and the
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myembodiment.com, that'smyembodiment.com, to join our
new community. You can practicealong with us and people from
(00:27):
all over the world and ask usquestions about anything you've
heard us talk about on the show.Today, we're exploring
forgiveness, not just as a loftyidea, but as a lived, felt, and
sometimes painful practice.
Forgiveness for others,forgiveness for ourselves, and
how we navigate the spaces whereforgiveness hasn't been given
yet. Tim, are you ready to goall in?
Timothy Bish (00:47):
I'm ready.
Eric Bomyea (00:48):
Let's do this. So forgiveness is often defined as
setting aside negative emotionsand resentments. So I'm curious,
like, what does forgiveness meanto you?
Timothy Bish (00:58):
Thank you for that question. I think there is an
idea. And when I was looking atthis earlier today, the ability
to set aside anger, resentment,frustration, that hasn't really
been my experience. It has a fewtimes with forgiveness, moments
when, oh, with an understanding,I don't feel that way anymore.
(01:24):
But more frequently, almostalways, forgiveness isn't about
me not being upset aboutsomething.
It's not about me changing myopinion about what I think
happened or my experience of it.And instead, it has become more
of a reframe and understandingof a situation from a different
(01:48):
perspective. So when I thinkabout a situation that I found
upsetting, I don't need I'llgive an example. My mom not
coming to see a show when Ithought she was coming to see
it. I'm still sad that shedidn't come to see the show, but
(02:09):
forgiveness was about me kind ofrecognizing where she actually
was and the humanity of her andher experience and allowing that
to change how I held it, howengaged based on those things.
So for me, forgiveness isn'tthis magic removal of anger or
(02:34):
resentment or frustration, butrather a recognition of a
bigger, broader picture fromwhich I can make a more
conscious choice. I think withforgiveness, when people are
like, oh, you have to forgive,it feels like magical thinking.
Oh, well, just forgive them.Don't be upset anymore. And I
(02:58):
believe that forgiveness canreally exist with some of the
feelings still there.
I'm still sad you didn't come. Istill remember the the the
moment or the feeling or thecircumstance, But I've worked
(03:19):
through a process, and so nowI'm not going to punish you. I'm
not going to I'm going to seeyou in a softer light and still
be able to connect with you andnot let it become a hindrance to
what could still be parts of ourrelationship.
Eric Bomyea (03:35):
So if I'm hearing correctly, forgiveness not
forgetting. So it's a, I can bewith the emotion that I'm being
with. I can still hold it andhold onto it without it turning
into a resentment. It'ssomething that's like, Okay, I'm
not going to forget that thatthing happened. It's still part
(03:57):
of my life, still part of myexperience, still part of my
story.
It did happen, but I'm notholding it with as much
intensity as maybe I did becauseI brought in a other way to see
it that has helped to maybesoften maybe some of the the
intense emotions that werecoming around the event?
Timothy Bish (04:16):
Well, I like this question because I I almost
wanted to talk about forgetting.I don't adhere to the idea of
forgive, don't forget, butthat's mainly because I don't
think I can choose that almostever. You know, I think about
every time I've been through abreakup. Oh, if I could forget
(04:37):
right now, if I could walk overand, like, push the forget
button, I would absolutely doit. And so with the idea of
forgive, not forget, that soundslike a choice, but for me, that
hasn't been my experience.
The choice is, well, I can'tforget. So I'm not I'm not
(04:58):
remembering to keep you in linebecause people will say that
sometimes. They'll be like, I'llforgive, but I'll never forget.
Right? And, like, they even madethat joke on drag drag race.
At one point, I think it wasPearl who made that joke. And it
was funny, but, I'm like, well,I forgetting can be great if you
can do it, but can someone tellme the recipe to how to forget
(05:20):
something? And then the truthis, well, I probably if it
matters enough to me, I probablycan't forget it. So I have to
then engage in a process ofworking through forgiveness, and
that's gonna, in my opinion,deal with recognizing what
people were bringing and howthey were and capacity and all
(05:41):
that other stuff.
Eric Bomyea (05:42):
Yeah. I think the analogy of you're carrying a
weight. And so when a big momenthappens, when there is something
that feels like a betrayal orsomething that feels really big
where you do have a hard timeforgiving somebody, it's a
really heavy weight. And so I dobelieve that there is a little
(06:04):
connection here with resentment.So I'm carrying around a
resentment of some sorts, thebig heavyweight.
I feel slighted by this personor something happened. Not
considered. Not considered. Ifeel I'm holding onto this
resentment. And the work, if I'munderstanding correctly, doesn't
become to drop the weight.
(06:25):
It becomes to, can I reduce theheaviness of the weight? Can I
get it so that because thisweight is gonna be with me for
probably the rest of my life?
Timothy Bish (06:35):
Well, that's the whole point is that when we
think about forgiveness andwell, just let it go. Just
forgive. Just don't be upsetanymore. That to me is all
really ridiculous. I've neverI've never had the experience in
my life when something reallymattered that I also felt like I
had the option, opportunity to
Eric Bomyea (06:57):
do that.
Timothy Bish (06:58):
And believe me, if that had been there, I would
have taken it. So, yeah, then inusing your analogy, you're
holding a weight. And now that'spart of what I'm carrying. So I
can either add on to that weightwith, well, you should have done
this and blah blah. Or I canstart to take, well, what was
(07:22):
really happening?
And then I think sometimes it'sreally heavy. It's a heavy
weight because someone behavedbadly. This is so forgiveness
isn't about always gettingclosure. I think forgiveness is,
okay. Well, how can I see thisin a way that allows me to move
on as fully as I can with theleast amount of burden?
Eric Bomyea (07:45):
Right. Because if the burden is preventing you
from moving forward, then thatthing has become too big, too
important to all consuming inyour life. It is becoming
prohibitive. When you've builtup such a resentment or you're
holding onto this thing that ispreventing you from getting
(08:09):
ahead, you've to figure out someway to reduce the weight a
little bit. We're not asking tofully drop it.
I'm walking around this lifedragging a bunch of weights
behind me. There's no doubtabout that. There have been so
many things in this life that,yes, I've held resentments, I've
had them, I had those bigintense things that I'm like, I
will never forgive you for this,for this slight. And there were
(08:32):
times that prevented me frommoving forward in my life,
right? Like I'm blaming mymother for not showing up to
something.
Yeah. Like very similarly, mymom didn't show up to many
things in my life, and I heldonto that resentment for years.
And the way that manifesteditself into other areas of my
life because I was holding ontothis very heavy weight. Yeah.
(08:54):
I'd to So it's about like, okay,that weight will always be with
me.
I'm always going to rememberthat my mom didn't show up. But
at this point, it's not asheavy.
Timothy Bish (09:03):
I would like to talk about my mom because as a
young gay boy in my upbringing,I needed her to be basically
Wonder Woman. And, you know, mymy father was not not there and,
you know, any kind of otherfactors. So I did a lot of
(09:24):
ignoring, and I and I made mymom into this sort of perfect
thing because that's what Ineeded. I remember one time
being in college, I think it wasmy freshman year of college at
NYU, and walking, I think, downTenth Street, and I met up with
some other dancers, and we werewalking to the studio. And this
girl was like, Tim, you're beingso braggy about, like, how you
(09:44):
know, because I was I missedPittsburgh, so I was talking
about Pittsburgh like it wasincredible.
And Pittsburgh is incredible, bythe way. And I was talking about
my mom and about how incredibleshe was. She's like, oh,
Pittsburgh's so perfect, andyour mom's so perfect. It feels
really braggy. And that was oddfor me in that moment.
But then as I started gettingolder and recognizing my mom as
(10:07):
the actual human being that shewas rather than the Wonder Woman
I needed her to be in thatmoment, I feel as if I was able
to love more fully. Now thelittle gay boy in me needed a
protector, and so I think meturning her into Wonder Woman in
my mind was that. So I don'tregret doing that. But then when
(10:30):
I think about meeting her nowand my relationship that I've
had as an adult with her, Ithink it's important that I'm
able to see her as the personshe really was. And that means
recognizing when she was wrongand then going through a process
(10:52):
of forgiveness by seeing her asa human and trying to trying to
look at it from thatperspective.
Because the bottom line is shedidn't show up in any number of
ways, but she also did show upother times in other important
(11:13):
ways. And, you know, when wetalk about this stuff with our
parents, we're rarely like, oh,well, you know, mom came to
every performance of the HighSchool Musical, but she did. I
mean, we would do two weekends.I think it was Friday, Saturday,
Sunday, both for two weekends ina row. Very exciting time for us
if you're like a little musicaltheater nerd, you know, which I
(11:34):
absolutely was.
And she came to everyperformance. That was great.
Mhmm. But I'd like that doesn'tsit with me in the same way
like, oh, but this one time, youknow, when you didn't come to,
like, the final performance ofband camp, which was also really
true. Like, I'm like I remember,like, being upset and crying.
(11:55):
So it just helps to okay. I'mI'm certain I it allows me the
possibility of full vision orfuller vision and experience of
a person. Because I thinkotherwise, if I never forgive
you, it's easy for you to justbe all wrong. Be like, you're
(12:16):
all bad. And the truth is, well,most of us, that isn't really
true.
Eric Bomyea (12:22):
Thank you for sharing about your mother and
about how there was such anevolution that happened with
your understanding of who shewas, who she needed to be at
different parts in your life.Are you open to a clarifying
question? I am open. When youstarted your story, you said
that you were in New Yorkbragging about how perfect your
mother was. And then somethingshifted where you started to
(12:45):
realize that there wasn't asmuch perfection.
And so did it reveal hiddenresentments? At that point of
bragging about perfectPittsburgh, perfect mother, did
you truly believe that it wasperfect, or was there a masking
of a resentment that wassomewhere?
Timothy Bish (13:06):
Well, I'm not going to say there was a masking
of a resentment. In that momentwhen I was talking about
Pittsburgh and talking about mymom, I think I was really scared
and lonely, and those were boththings, people, places where I
felt safe, and I and I generallyfelt not safe. You know, I moved
(13:28):
to New York City with no money,very little support, and it's
yeah. I mean, some of thestudents at NYU were, like,
kinda dicks. You know?
And and and I get it. You, like,you show up at college, and you
wanna be the cool kid. You know,especially the people from
Southern California. I'm justgonna say this. So So I like LA
(13:52):
now, and I like SouthernCalifornia.
But when I moved to NYU thatyear, all of the dancers from
Southern California, I rememberthinking like, what is it about
that area? They're all beingassholes to me because I didn't
know remember one time someoneyelled at me because I didn't
know what DKNY stood for? AndI'm like, you don't know what it
means? Well, that is awful. Andif I were from Southern
(14:14):
California, I would yell at youand embarrass you.
No. Donna Karan, New York. I didnot know that.
Eric Bomyea (14:21):
Oh.
Timothy Bish (14:22):
It was, like, the label at the time, late
nineties. You know, it was a bigdeal. And I think I said DNKY.
Mhmm. My friend was like, do youknow what that stands for?
Yeah. So I I had, like, I had alot of learning that I needed to
do. Like, I didn't know Iremember I got made fun of one
time for not knowing they servedStarbucks coffee at Barnes and
Noble. I'm like, well, I neverwhat you talking about?
Eric Bomyea (14:44):
I had abortions growing up, so I wouldn't
Timothy Bish (14:46):
have known. Yeah. But also, like, also the way
that my life existed, like, Iwent to school, then I would
drive into the city to takedance class. I'm like, you know?
And it was just very like, oh,come on.
Like, this is what, like,everyone knows, so I felt very
unsafe.
Eric Bomyea (14:57):
Yeah.
Timothy Bish (14:57):
And so I'm like, I made some places I, like, I
amplified some places for thethe purpose of safety. And when
I went back to Pittsburgh, I hadfriends that would not talk to
me like that, that would notgive me a hard time or that they
would in different ways and youknow? And then my so, you know,
I was just I was trying tocreate safety. Yeah. So is there
(15:18):
a resentment there?
I mean, maybe. I don't know. ButI I know that in that moment, I
wasn't bragging to be betterthan anyone else. I think I was
bragging because I'm like, well,everyone else feels really
comfortable, or you appear to bereally comfortable, and I feel
super uncomfortable. And I'mjust trying to feel less
uncomfortable.
I have no money and no supportand no one like, everyone else
(15:39):
was you know? I remember I wouldbe one of the very few people
who would leave rehearsal inclass and go to work. I'm like,
oh, you all have parents sendingyou money and, like, people
coming to visit you. I mean, Ican't tell you how many times I
did performances at the school.You know?
You know, it would be, like,Friday and Saturday and part of
our curriculum. Almost I almostnever had anyone there.
Eric Bomyea (16:04):
Mhmm.
Timothy Bish (16:05):
And so at the end, you leave and, like, their kids
getting even, like, the, like,the little performances, like,
that didn't really matter. I'mlike, oh, you're getting
flowers. You're getting cards.You I'm like, you know, I
remember a teacher one time waslike, who came to see you? And
I'm like, no.
I'm just, you know, I'm I'm justno one I'm done. So, yeah, I was
looking for safety. So to thatperson who said that, then she
(16:27):
wasn't trying to be totallymean, but I'm like, I wasn't
trying to brag. I was just I wasjust trying not to feel terrible
and unsafe. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (16:35):
Very, very understandable in a situation
like that where it's like, youknow, there is a lot of judgment
and a lot of meanness beingdirected. So in those moments of
somebody doesn't show up to ashow, I can see how that creates
(16:56):
a sense of needing safety aswell. Right? Like, if that's the
reality, right? Like, yeah.
Like, I got to go find somethingthat makes me feel really good
because this feels really bad.And I can relate to that.
Timothy Bish (17:08):
Right. And I think this is important because I
think the the inability orunwillingness to forgive someone
is, I think, almost always bornof that. I feel so hurt and so
vulnerable.
Eric Bomyea (17:21):
Pointing at you. You were
Timothy Bish (17:22):
And, like and so the one of the things so here I
was, like, exaggerating my momor Pittsburgh. Like, but if I
can exaggerate how bad you are,how wrong you were when you did
that, then I can somehow feelbetter because it's the only
thing that's gonna make me feelbetter. Because the truth is
none of the stuff like, somethings don't change. Like, my
(17:44):
mom cannot go back and see thatperformance of that show that I
thought she was coming to, whichis different, by the way, than,
like, I I was less upset whenI'm like, well, you never said
you were coming. I wasn'tlooking for you.
Versus, like, you said you werecoming, I was looking for you.
But but now that's never gonnachange. So the part of us that
(18:56):
wants to hold on to, I need youto be really wrong or really
bad, chances are it's likebecause I there's a safety in
that. I feel a little bit safeat least knowing that I was the
good guy and you're the bad guy.
Eric Bomyea (19:10):
And is it okay to stay on that example? Sure.
Right? Like, so in that case,did I hear correctly that, like,
your mother signed up to say,like, I'm going to be there, and
she didn't, does that then makeher the the bad guy? Like, you
didn't uphold your commitment,so now I have a big feeling
about that.
Timothy Bish (19:30):
I don't think there was a blame. I think there
was a, why didn't you show up?My feelings are hurt. So in the
in the immediate, I had I had anemotion an emotional reaction to
what happened or didn't happen.And then it was years later that
I
Eric Bomyea (19:49):
had to work
Timothy Bish (19:49):
through and start to forgive that moment. I
carried that moment with me fora long time.
Eric Bomyea (19:58):
So it wasn't about villainizing, it was just like,
I have a really big hurt feelingthat is uncaring around. It's
not that, like, I think you're abad person, it's that I feel
bad. And like, the forgivenesswas like, can I forgive her?
Forgive myself? Like, what wasthe forgiveness worth then?
Timothy Bish (20:20):
Well, I mean so I think I think we don't wanna get
stuck on a particular examplebecause I do think there is
value in forgiving someone fromyour perspective who was a bad
actor. Right? And that isn't Ithink my mom was being a little
bit complacent and nonresponsivein in some ways that I think
(20:45):
matter. But, the forgivenesswork is about, okay. Well, I had
hurt.
I had sadness, and I felt like Iwasn't a priority, and that that
had a lingering impact on me,and how long do I wanna carry
that? It's not about I needed tolabel her behavior. I think I
(21:06):
did label it initially as like,well, you don't you clearly
don't care about me because youdidn't show up. But, like, that
isn't that isn't the I didn't Ineed that. I needed to recognize
that I was carrying somethingthat I don't want to
Eric Bomyea (21:23):
be carrying anymore. What gets in the way
sometimes of that, of being ableto start dropping that weight to
move forward? What does one needto do from feeling like I'm
holding onto this thing? I havea big hurt. I have a big
feeling.
It's connected to somebody.Mhmm. And I'm trying to let it
(21:45):
go. I'm trying to reduce theweight of it, and I just can't.
So what what
Timothy Bish (21:49):
I think it's beliefs. I think it's beliefs. I
think it's in that moment, Ibelieved so, okay, at the end of
every band camp, there was afinal, like, a final show where
the parents would come. Theywould all or the guardians would
come. They would watch the show,and then they would drive
everyone home, and, like, bandcamp was over.
And now we had this thing thatwe would continue to practice
(22:09):
and rehearse, but you know? Andso for two years when I was in
middle school, I drove up everysummer with my mom to see my
sister. And then for the twoyears that my sister and I were
both in the band together, mymom would also come. So the
first year that it was just me,my mom opted not to come. And so
I remember thinking, well, youdon't I'm not important enough
(22:31):
for you to come see just me, butJen was important enough because
you came to see just her, and Iknow because you dragged me with
you.
And so that was I that was abelief connected to a feeling
that I had. And I think it wasvalid because I saw you show up
for someone else, and you're notshowing up for me. And then I
(22:53):
had this whole feeling about it.I remember I started crying a
little bit. I tried to hide itbecause I was in high school at
the time and you know?
But, like, oh, I just I I can'tbelieve you're not here. Right?
But then so then I look back.So, obviously, space really
matters and get some space, andI had the luxury of many years.
And and then you recognize,okay.
(23:14):
Well, what was really happeningwas my sister was the problem
child with all the challenges,and I had this image of being,
like, the good boy. I thinkeveryone kind of agreed I needed
less coddling or, you know,whatever. And, you know, and I
(23:36):
then I think my mom has a fewfew qualities. Some of those are
a little bit of desire to relax.I might call that laziness.
And I love you, mom. And she'snot listening to this anyway, it
doesn't matter. And and so thatthat confluence of factors was,
like, came together in thatmoment. It's like, oh, I
(23:56):
actually do think you care aboutme now with some perspective,
but I also understand why I feltlike you didn't then. And still,
if if she called me right now,I'd say, I really I really wish
you would come.
I felt bad that you didn't come.But I'm not I'm not there's not
a charge there for me anymorewith her about it because, oh,
well, your marriage was in theplace it was in. Your life was
(24:20):
in the place it was in. Youwere, you know, newly focused on
your eldest child daughter goingto school. Like, lots of
concerns that that weren't frontof mind for me.
What was front of mind for mewas my experience, which is I
just finished band camp, and youshould be here. Yeah. My mom I
(24:42):
realize now, like, my mom isprobably freaked out about my
sister going to school because Ithink she inherently knew, like,
my sister was not the kind ofperson who's, like, good at
going far away from home. Andalso, I love you, Jen. Like, I
think she would absolutely agreewith that statement.
And fun fact, like, the entiretyof time since I left high
(25:04):
school, they have always beenvery near each other and, like,
lived together. So much, infact, that my sister moved to
Myrtle Beach. My mom my stepdadfollowed. So I think that's a
totally accurate thing. Andyou're like, oh, so you were
probably terrified about that,and you never told me.
So all I know is that you didn'tcome to the show. Mhmm. And that
(25:24):
had a feeling.
Eric Bomyea (25:25):
Of course. And I really love how you're able to
bring in It's almost a matter offact, like this is just what
happened, right? Like it'sacknowledging that, yes, there
was a big emotion. There was abig feeling, but this is what
happened. And the ability to beable to say the emotion was
there, it's not as big anymore.
Timothy Bish (25:48):
Of the practice of forgiveness. Right? Like,
because I had to start to wrapmy head around, I still believe
my mom should have come. I Ibelieve that. But is that
helping me in my currentrelationship with her, which is
the only time I have left?
Right? So how we interact now iswhat I've got. So what I wanna
(26:12):
what am I gonna do with whatI've got? I'm gonna am I gonna,
like, either outright orsubversively, punish her for
this thing. And then, of course,you know, we're talking about
this one example about, like,band camp.
You guys are like, this matterto me, but but it's also well,
all these other times. Right?And and it's like, well, if what
(26:33):
I wanna do is maximize my time,my experience, then maybe it is
important, it behooves me to notbe carrying stuff that isn't of
service. And the recognition andthe space that you've been able
to create to recognize that,yeah, I still have this belief.
Eric Bomyea (26:54):
I still have this opinion that she should have
done something differently. ButI can recognize that that piece
of my history still exists, thatbelief still exists, and I can
choose at that point to say, I'mnot going to allow that to
interfere with the time that Ihave with her. I'm going to
(27:16):
engage with her in a way that Ican set that aside. I'm working
towards forgiveness to be ableto say, This weight is much less
heavy. I can put it aside.
It's not in my face carrying itaround. Yeah.
Timothy Bish (27:30):
I mean, this also goes for self forgiveness. So,
you know, another story I mayhave told on this podcast, I
can't remember, but I there wasthis guy in middle school, high
school who lived across thestreet from me who would very
frequently make fun of me forbeing gay. And there were there
(27:54):
were coming phases when itwould, like, be more intense or
less intense. I I was neverreally afraid of him that he was
gonna, like, beat me up oranything, but it would be, like,
pretty frequent harassment. Andone time, I I clapped back in
front of his mom actually andbecause he was fat, and I called
him fat.
And I I I still feel bad aboutthat. There's still moments
(28:15):
where I'm like, and so mypractice in that moment was,
okay, Tim. Was that the mostcompassionate or skillful thing
that you could have said in thatmoment? No. But was anyone else
modeling how I should have doneit?
You know, when I'm when Irealize now, I'm like, I'm
(28:37):
talking about when I'm maybe intenth grade. Mhmm. How old are
we? We're 15, 14 years old, And,you know, everyone is, you know,
magically ignoring the fact thatI'm clearly a homosexual and,
you know, all all this stuffand, like, all you know,
teachers and parents allowingpeople to, like, make fun
because they're trying totoughen you up and not be a
sissy and you know, whatever.And so I I clap back.
(29:00):
And so then when I when Ibecause it still happens, but
rarely, where I'm like, oh,yuck. That was, like, kinda
gross. It's like, yeah. But Ihave to forgive that Tim for for
being a little unskillfulbecause he was doing the best he
could. I also have toacknowledge and reward that Tim
(29:22):
for finally setting a boundary.
You know? Was it the mostskillful boundary? Absolutely
not. But, oh, am I gonna am Igonna just be a punching bag for
you? No.
So the the process offorgiveness is, I think, a
recognition of what actuallyhappened, and and then how does
(29:43):
someone take that to to framehow they feel about it now, and
then make choices from thatplace. And there's a freedom.
Mhmm. So when I think aboutthat, I'm like, you were just
doing the best you could in aworld that was allowing you to
be attacked verbally mostly,like, attacked verbally on the
(30:08):
regular, and so you had oneskillful, like, lash out. One
unskillful lash out is what Imeant to say.
One unskillful lash out. Yeah.It'd be better if you didn't
have that, but
Eric Bomyea (30:20):
I love that that being able to see either you or
somebody else who's doing thebest that they can do at that
time and allowing it to reframethe way in which we view that
event. And so it really is it'sa very objective look at
(30:41):
something because what I feel alot of the times is things that
I'm holding a resentment or areally big charge with, it's
that I'm only looking at it frommy very small perspective. It's
like, this is exactly how I sawit. This is exactly how I saw
you behaving or me behaving inthis scenario. And it's the
(31:03):
pulling back, it's the zoomingout, it's the ability to pause
and recognize that this is notjust one perspective of the
event, but there are severalperspectives of the event that
can make it look a littlesmaller.
You're just looking at somethingstraight on, like, yeah, it can
look massive. But then you,like, look at it from another
angle, like, oh, that's not asbig as I thought. Okay.
Timothy Bish (31:24):
So in my yoga teacher training, one of my
teachers but they they bothagreed to this idea. They they
would say everyone's alwaysdoing the very best they can
with what they've got at anygiven time. And then, you know,
they were it's Jeeva Mukti, andthey were super vegan. You know?
(31:44):
Ahimsa non harming.
And so I remember at one point,we're watching all these movies
about the meat and dairyindustry and how, like,
destructive it is and how cruelit is and how bad for the
environment it is and, you know,whatever. And and then we were
reminded of that teaching, and,you know, there's this company
(32:05):
called Monsanto. Mhmm. So forpeople who aren't familiar with
Monsanto, it's a, you know,farming food industry company.
I'm gonna leave it there.
That many who have strongly heldbeliefs would argue is not
virtuous. Do you have anythingto add to that? It's anyway, so
(32:28):
the idea that our teacher said,you have to remember that
everyone's doing the best theycan at any given time, and she
said that will include the theCEOs and the, you know, the
upper echelon of this of thiscompany at Monsanto. And I
remember pausing in that momentand thinking, oh, you're
advocating compassion for for acompany that is at odds with
(32:53):
things you with strongly heldbeliefs.
Eric Bomyea (32:55):
Mhmm.
Timothy Bish (32:58):
And then I was like, okay. So if that is if
that's true and we're all doingthe best we can at any given
time, that doesn't mean we don'tget punished for really bad
behavior or that there aren'tconsequences to what we're
doing. But can that provide mecan even the consideration of
that being possible provide mewith some space to consider
(33:21):
something from a differentperspective? And then then I get
to that place where I thinkabout all the times I've done
something that I wish had beenbetter. Sometimes I wish I wish
I hadn't done that.
Other times, I wish I had donethat more skillfully. I wish I I
wish I had spoken up sooner. Iwish I had said it, you know, at
(33:45):
all. And then you think, okay.Well, I have made so many
mistakes in my life, as haveyou, as have everyone.
You know? Does that make me allbad? Does that disqualify me for
trying another thing orattempting to be a better
(34:09):
person? No. Of course not.
If we all stopped every time wefailed, then we'd already be
done. Right? We have to keepgoing.
Eric Bomyea (34:16):
But I think this is where forgiveness comes in so
handy. Right? Because withoutit, those resentments that we're
carrying around either toourselves or to others will
prevent our perception ofourselves or from others from
evolving, from being able tosay, Oh, you had one unskillful
moment. Right? If I'm stillholding on to that, I am keeping
(34:37):
you in that moment, and I'm notallowing you to move forward.
Through forgiveness, I'mallowing you to move forward.
I'm allowing myself to moveforward that that thing
happened. Right. It's not aboutforgetting. It's about
forgiveness so that we can moveforward so that I can allow you,
I can allow me to be the nextiteration of myself.
Timothy Bish (35:00):
I'm getting excited, Simba, to make an
Olympic reference. But what I'mhearing you say is that one
moment can have an impact. Itdoesn't necessarily color our
entire lives. So we we dosomething unskillful. Does not
mean, well, you did that onething unskillfully, so you're a
(35:22):
bad person and you're forever abad person.
Right?
Eric Bomyea (35:25):
But that's where resentment can come in is that
if somebody thinks that or ifyou think that about yourself,
if you attach a resentment tothat without forgiving it, it
will. It will keep that personplanted in that moment.
Timothy Bish (35:36):
Totally, which is why then the practice of
forgiveness would be therecognition that one one moment
doesn't necessarily, like, colorthe entirety of the rest of your
of the rest of your life. So theexample that I wanna use, and
I'm pretty sure this is right,but we'll have to Google check
it. Tanya Harding Mhmm. Was thefirst woman to ever land a
(35:59):
triple Axle in competition, andI'm pretty sure she did this at
the US National Championschampionships. This might have
been, like, in the, like, theearly to mid nineties.
Eric Bomyea (36:10):
First American woman to successfully land the
triple axle in a figure skatingcompetition. She achieved this
feat in 1991.
Timothy Bish (36:16):
1991. Great. And she went on to win the national
championship that year becauseof that feat, I think, over
Christie Yamaguchi and NancyKerrigan. I think, anyway, as as
Eric is googling. But the thingthat's important was so that's
that's an impressive achievementthat she was able to do.
(36:36):
I never remember her landing oneafter that in competition, and
it was not a thing that she hadin her back pocket. This is not
a criticism, Ms. Tanya Harding.It's just that, there's nothing
taking away the her capacitythat the fact that she did it,
But it didn't necessarily meanthat she was, like, the triple
(36:59):
Axel Queen. And so that's sortof the the the positive version
of, well, okay.
So I I insulted someone. I wasoverly harsh with someone. I
was, you know, fill in theblank. Well, it doesn't
necessarily mean that I'm anoverly harsh person that cannot
(37:21):
get out of that. It's like I canmake new choices, especially if
I can bring perspective andforgiveness and say, okay.
Well, we're all human. We allhave a bad day.
Eric Bomyea (37:30):
Yeah. I have harshness in me, but I myself am
not a harsh person. Detachingfrom it, we all have these parts
to us, every single person. Butwhen we don't allow those
experiences to evolve andchange, whether it's, I mean, we
see this all the time in One HitWonders or Tanya Harding, right?
(37:51):
It could be positive.
It could be that thing. But ifwe hold on to such a tight grip
of this is that person and wedon't allow them to change,
like, yeah.
Timothy Bish (37:59):
Just about Tonya Harding, I would say this. Yeah.
Totally. I would just say this.I think the first American woman
to ever land the triple axel incompetition, I thought she was
the first woman ever, but firstAmerican, still a big deal.
And then the expectation thatyou're now the person who can do
that, I think, actually workedagainst her as I think it does
(38:20):
for so many people. So now Ihave an expectation of you for,
like, being able to do this orfor being this person, and so
I'm looking for you to show upthat way. And this is another
thing about forgiveness. Sogoing back to the example of,
like, my mom, but any personwho, like, doesn't show up. And,
like, if I if I then set theexpectation of, well, you're the
(38:41):
person who doesn't show up forme, and I'm looking for that,
chances are I'm gonna findevidence to support it.
Eric Bomyea (38:48):
Amir says this all the time. If you are scanning
the horizon for tigers, that'swhat you're gonna find.
Timothy Bish (38:54):
Yeah. And so so why is forgiveness an important
act of self care even if thereisn't resolution or even if you
believe the person did dosomething wrong? It's because
how how impacted do you wantyour vision to be? How
influenced do you want yourperspective to be because of
(39:15):
this thing? Right?
So, you know, in men's work,authentic living and, you know,
clear full expression. Well, Iwant the clearest perspective
I've got to take into the, youknow, to the rest of my life. If
I'm if I'm constantly lookingfor people to not show up for
me, then I'm gonna probably findpeople who aren't gonna show up
(39:39):
for me. As soon as I becomeaware of that, then I can start
to make some change. And so, youknow, with when I think about my
mom to be like, if you were ifyou're just this woman who
didn't show up for me for thatshow, it will influence every
interaction we have.
So now that I've done some workaround that, when I talk to my
mom, I'm not holding that as athing that that is influencing
(40:06):
what I'm saying to her, how I'mshowing up with her. I clearly
haven't forgotten about itbecause we've spent an entire
episode talking about it, butbut it's it's not stopping me
from trying to be with my mom tothe extent that I can be with
her for the time that I haveleft with her.
Eric Bomyea (40:20):
And it gives space. It gives space to recognize that
it's still there. I mean, thishappens with, mom, I love you
too, but this happens quitefrequently with my mom, where
like she says something and ittriggers the fuck out of me. And
it just like, it takes me amoment because all those old
resentments will come back realfast. And then the work becomes
(40:42):
like, okay, can I bring in theperspective?
Can I drop the weight a littlebit? I take it down so that I
can be here in this moment andnot have to villainize her and
not have to be right and nothave to do all these things and
just forgive a little bit. Okay.Like, moving on. That happened
twenty years ago.
That happened three seconds ago.Whatever it might be. Right?
(41:04):
Trying to move forward.
Timothy Bish (41:05):
Yeah. And can someone do something that you
don't like or that you disagreewith without making them bad?
And I think that's a that's abig thing right now because we
haven't really been taught howto do that. And so it can be
easy to get latched onto what Ibelieve is right or what we
(41:28):
should have done or, you know,and this translates politically.
So I have some people in my lifethat hold very different ideas
about what we should be doingpolitically as a country.
Am I gonna let the fact that weclearly disagree about something
stop me from having arelationship with them on all
(41:51):
these other levels. So am Igonna go to a Trump rally with
you? No. Mhmm. I'm not.
But am I gonna let the fact thatyou voted for him stop me from
having dinner with you on, like,the rare visit? Maybe not. I
mean, then there's a lot offactors. So, like, for people
who are listening who have madethat decision, that's fine too,
(42:12):
but I also think chances arethere's more there. Right?
I wouldn't give up arelationship with my mother over
a Trump vote. To be clear, mymom did not vote at all, which I
guess is a slightly easier pillto swallow than if she had voted
for him. But but but when Ithink about, well, right now, I
(42:32):
have control over my life andthe relationship with my mom.
Now having said this, there aresome people I know who have very
legitimately cut ties because ofthings like that, so there's no
judgment here. But it's all it'sall a choice.
And so how conscious are weabout that choice? If I can
forgive, if I can bringperspective, then I'm more
(42:54):
likely to make a choice.
Eric Bomyea (42:56):
I think nuance here is authenticity. Like, yes, I
can forgive for certain thingsas best as I can, but is that
going to prevent me? Like, haveI truly forgiven enough so that
I can fully bring myself intothe conversation? Can I have
(43:19):
forgiven my mother enough that Ican actually be there with her
fully and without the need tohide anything? So if I'm out to
dinner with somebody that voteddifferently than I did, we have
a real big feeling about that,and I've done some forgiveness
work.
Okay. Cool. But am I stoppingmyself from being there in some
(43:43):
capacity? Because part two ofthis. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because thatto me feels like, I'm I'm just
gonna say it because I don'tknow the other words. So it's
not for it's not forgiveness andit's not forgetting, but it
almost feels like ignorance orignoring.
I'm gonna ignore this so that wecan be pleasant together. That
to me doesn't feel likeforgiveness.
Timothy Bish (44:05):
Yeah. No. I don't think I don't think ignoring is.
I think ignoring if we go backto the example of my mom,
ignoring is what I did for along time because it's what I
needed. It's very different thanclear recognition of what I
believe is true and dealing withand working with that.
Eric Bomyea (44:22):
And then being able to be in that moment with her as
fully as you can. Yeah. Yeah.Yeah. Exactly.
Yeah. And it sounds like there'sa lot that is revealed when
forgiveness enters the picture,both energetically, emotionally,
and also physically. Just beingable to let some things go, like
I can relate that and justphysically the feeling of the
(44:44):
burden, the weight of something,and then through forgiveness
practices, feeling a little bitlighter. And so what else do you
think changes when forgivenessenters in?
Timothy Bish (44:58):
I think that we get to start to let go of the
emotional charge connected towhatever the thing was. So I
know that there have beenmoments in my life that I will
probably always remember withsome emotional charge, but how
much control can that chargeexert over me? I believe that
(45:22):
starts to become softer and moremanageable through that process.
I was really hurt. I was reallyupset.
But with the process offorgiveness, I think we can
start
Eric Bomyea (45:35):
to soften that. Remind me of one practise we did
once that was a visualizationaround resentment clearing, and
it was holding this person whowe had a big charge against and
how there was this connection,there were these tethers, all of
(45:56):
these tethers that this personhad to me that prevented me from
moving forward. And so thepractice in that visualization
became like putting up a shieldalmost so that those tethers
that were coming in didn't havesuch a strong attachment. But
what I noticed was that eventhough that shield goes up, they
(46:18):
still wanna come in, andsometimes they'll make their way
through. And then it does becomethe practice of being like,
okay, releasing it, detaching itbecause they don't go away.
Yeah. Those big charges willalways be there in some
capacity.
Timothy Bish (46:33):
And I I think sometimes we don't even realize
that we also want them to
Eric Bomyea (46:37):
stay. Mhmm.
Timothy Bish (46:39):
So I if I'm connected to you because you've
done something wrong to me and Ihave a feeling about that, I'm
still connected to you. And, youknow, I think a a bolder but
scarier choice is to say, well,am I willing to be completely
disconnected? Am I willing tolose you? I think a lot of that
(47:03):
is why is it hard to forgivepeople? Well, because that would
forgiveness would be potentiallythe willingness to let go of the
resentment that's part of ouridentity and, you know, our MO
in this situation.
Oh, I need like, again, goingback to, like, I need to be the
good guy and you're the bad guy,but then I'm still connected to
(47:26):
you because, you know, when wethink about, like, movies and
comic books, the two the thehero and the villain don't need
to be in the same scene for usto know that they are in
relationship with each other.They are.
Eric Bomyea (47:37):
The identity becomes intertwined. I just had
this visual of, like, thinking,like, oh, that final moment of,
like, being able to, like,forgive is kinda like just,
like, blowing the dust if it'sthis hazy form of a person in
front of me. It really is. It'slike this person or this thing
has been with me my entire lifeor for however long I'm holding
(47:57):
onto this resentment or bigcharge, been holding onto it. So
it's become a part of myidentity.
And so it really does become avery scary thing to be like, Oh,
I may have to let this go. It'slike the dust, right? Like, Oh,
but then the air is cleared.
Timothy Bish (48:14):
Yeah, and then what's left?
Eric Bomyea (48:16):
But then am I alone? That's scary. Totally,
exactly. Exactly right. Well,thank you.
I want to just acknowledge youand appreciate you for the
vulnerable shares today and forworking through just a handful
of examples. I think we wentreally deep into those
experiences and I think theywere really helpful to
understand this complex topic.So I just want to acknowledge
(48:39):
you and thank you for for doingthat with us and and letting us
all in. So appreciate you. Iappreciate you.
And with that, I'm feeling verycomplete. Is there anything
you'd like to
Timothy Bish (48:47):
complete too.
Eric Bomyea (48:48):
Alright. Thank you. Yeah. Will you take us out?
Timothy Bish (48:50):
I will. Let's take a deep inhale and a gentle
exhale. And then with deepappreciation and gratitude for
any insights, awarenesses, orunderstandings that were gained
here in the shared sacred spaceof brotherhood that we now
release the archetypes and thespirits that we called in. And
as we leave the circle, I wisheveryone safety, community,
(49:12):
brotherhood, equality, and love.And with these words, our
container is open, but notbroken.
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