The Dominant Way to Avoid Burnout: Ms. Elle X on Rest and Radical Self-Advocacy

Episode Transcript
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Eric Bomyea (00:06):
Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go
all in on men's work and bodyman practices and personal
growth from our queerperspective. If you're enjoying
the show, please be sure torate, leave a review, and
subscribe. And if you have aquestion about anything you've
heard us talk about, please sendus a message. We'd love to hear
from you. And now onto the show.
What happens when the onesholding it all together start to
come undone? Today, we're joinedby Ms. Alex, trauma informed

(00:29):
BDSM educator, licensed lifecoach, and former dominatrix
whose work in conscious kink andempowered relationships has
transformed lives across theglobe. Together, we explore the
hidden cost of leadership, whyso many men and leaders struggle
to rest, what happens when theydon't, and how surrender can be
the most radical act of selfcare. We'll talk about true
power, nervous system capacity,and how rest isn't a weakness,

(00:52):
but a necessary reset for anyonewho leads, holds space, or
carries the weight of others.
Tim, miss Elle, are you ready togo all in? I'm ready.

Ms. Elle X (01:01):
Let's go.

Let's go indeed. Miss Elle, thank you so much for
being here with us today.Welcome to the circle.

Ms. Elle X (01:07):
Thank you so much. It is an honor to be in this
space. I am honored that youtrust me with your community, so
thank you all.

So speaking of community, I've been a part of
your community now for about twoyears. Yes. And one of the
reoccurring themes that I'veheard you talk on and something
that you've worked with me onpersonally is this notion of
rest and how difficult it can befor people to just take a
fucking break. And so what doyou think makes rest so
difficult for people who are inpositions of power or

(01:38):
responsibility, whether they area dominant, a leader, or a
parent? And what happens whenthey don't?

Ms. Elle X (01:44):
I think the what happens when you don't question
is much easier to answer thanthe why question because I think
there are a lot of factors thatgo into why someone is
struggling to rest. If it'sshame around rest, anxiety
around rest, if it is a traumaresponse, if it is

(02:07):
perfectionism, there are all ofthese different pathways that
lead into this notion that wetranslate that says we have to
keep going. We, we haven'tworked hard enough to earn rest.
And when rest gets viewedthrough the lens of performance

(02:29):
that I have to reach a certainthreshold in order to rest, that
is a setup for burnout just byhow you're defining it. So I
think a lot of factors, thequick answer, in my experience,
a lot of trauma.
Trauma, unhealed wounds,rejection sensitivity is a huge

(02:52):
one. Insecurity is a huge one. Ithink insecurity is a driving
factor to constantly work.Security can rest. Insecurity
always has something to prove.
So if you're approaching yourpurview on life, relationships,
sex, business, domination,leadership through a lens of a

(03:14):
deficit, through I am not enoughand I'm showing up in this lens
of I'm not enough and I'minsecure, you won't allow
yourself to stop because youwill always have something to
prove.

Timothy Bish (03:28):
You know, there's a lot of talk in our culture
that I think makes it reallyhard for people to take a break
because I I rarely hear peopleregretting working hard or doing
more. But if you do take abreak, it's so easy to say,
well, then, like, the reason youdidn't achieve that thing was

(03:50):
because you weren't you shouldhave been working when you did
that thing that wasn't working,or maybe they they hurled in the
label lazy at you. Oh, you werebeing lazy. Doesn't feel like
there's, in my experience atleast, ever been a conversation
about the value of consciousrest and how it might actually
fuel and optimize effort later.Mhmm.

(04:14):
But there like, we just didn'ttalk about it like that. It was
all about, like, you know, ifyou work hard enough, you can
achieve it. And so if you don'tachieve it, you didn't work hard
enough. That's a really trickything because sometimes you work
really hard and still don'tachieve a thing, and it has
nothing to do with how hard youworked. And, you know, when I
was performing on Broadway,there would be times Everyone

everyone take a sip of your beverage. The classic
circle podcast game here.Anytime Tim mentions that he was
a professional dancer, we take asip.

Ms. Elle X (04:43):
So but

this but this is relevant.

Ms. Elle X (04:46):
I'm glad I have tea,

not liquor. This is this is relevant because when
you would get to the final,like, the final round of a
callback, then the assumptionwas, okay. Well, everyone in
this room now probably has thetalent. They've all worked hard
enough to achieve the thing. Andthen the criteria for why you
get hired is so like, I'vebooked jobs because I look the

(05:08):
way I look, and I have notbooked jobs because I've looked
the way I look because they'recasting shows.
Right? And so it's really trickythen to be like, well, at some
point, it wasn't about my effortor not. It was about something
else. But then if you walk awayand feel, well, the reason I
didn't get it was because Ididn't work hard enough, then it
creates, I think, somethingreally unhealthy. And I feel

(05:28):
like that's what I'm hearing youtalk about too.

Ms. Elle X (05:31):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you know, what you said about we
just don't we don't hear theconversation around rest. We
don't hear rest being advocatedfor, and I agree with you. But
what I find very interesting iswe hear consent being advocated
for, especially in the kinkcommunity, I'm sure in your

(05:51):
space as well.
And so consent is this, like itis law. It is BDSM law. But
really, rest and consent are twosides at the same coin. Because
rest is our advocating for ourno in the same way consent is
advocating for our yes.

Wow. Wait. Wait. Yeah. Yeah.
Say like

A miss l truth bomb. No. That Five minutes in.
Let's go.

Five minutes in.

Ms. Elle X (06:21):
Totalize. Our work here is done.

I mean, I think that's so important. So if I
heard you rest is advocating ourno the way that consent is
advocating for our yes, whichmeans that in order to have a
fully realized conversation,they both have to be present.
It's very yin and yang. It'svery like even if even if you in
the experience are alwaysconsenting because that's what
feels right, the the rest partof it, the no to the yes, is

(06:47):
still there. This I could getinto Chinese medicine, but this
feels really, like, connected.
Like like, even if even if youdon't say it, it's still
present. It is still in theexperience. It's still part of
the conversation.

Ms. Elle X (06:59):
Yes. Yes. Because you don't you cannot authentic
you can't authentically say yesif you're unwilling to say no.

And it's no to so many things. No to the
experience of the scene ofwhat's happening, but also no to
like, no, I'm not going to go todinner. No, I'm not gonna go out
to that show. No. I'm not gonnago meet friends.
No. I'm not gonna take on thatproject.

Ms. Elle X (07:26):
Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Because you're saying
yes to something more valuable.So to me, rest and boundaries
and priority and consent are allthe same concept.
They cannot be separated in myin my mind at least. Go ahead.

So you are blowing my mind right now. This is I
think it's I think it's soimportant because I I what I've
also observed is a lot ofpeople, they say no with a lot
of edge. We talk about edges andboundaries in men's work all the
time. Like, I say it with a lotof edge. And now what I think
I'm hearing is, well, you'reprobably saying it with edge
because you weren't allowingyourself to say it until you are
so pushed.

(08:03):
You're you're so pushed thatyou're like, now my no has to be
like this brick wall of youknow? Yes. As opposed to like,
well, I can actually say no in avery heartfelt centered way if
it's always there. So sometimesI don't wanna go to dinner. It's
not because I don't like you oryou're not great at dinner or
the restaurant you chose isn'tgonna be delicious.
I might say no for otherreasons, and I won't need that

(08:24):
edge if I'm in conversation withboth my yes and my no. Is that
what am I hearing you correctly?

Ms. Elle X (08:30):
Yes. And it circles back, no pun intended, to the
point on insecurity cannot rest.If you are secure in your
identity, you're secure in let'sbring in a relational aspect
because that's my realm. If weare secure in that relationship,
we're secure in our partner'slove. They've asked us to go out

(08:52):
to dinner, but we're burnt out.
We need rest. We need self care.And let's say we are so secure
in our partner's love that wego, I don't have to say yes out
of obligation. I don't have toabandon myself. I don't have to
betray myself to try to preventa negative outcome.

(09:15):
So, therefore, my yes isactually an act of fear at that
point, not an actual act of selfadvocacy. So if I am approaching
my relationship that I'm secure,I'm secure with my partner,
we're secure in thisrelationship, I'm still going to
be loved if I don't accept thisinvitation. We can rest.

This was the example that you and I worked
through in one of our firstcoaching sessions was this exact
thing. It was the differencebetween something being a
commitment that I can up holdwith devotional energy. Yes.
Tilting into an obligation andhow that was burning me out.

Ms. Elle X (09:56):
Yes. Yes. Right.

So like I was looking at too many things that
I had said yes to, and I wasafraid to say no. And I was
getting to that place of fullyburnt out and then like fully
like in a place of I can't evenfunction. I was in full burnout.
And it's so helpful to to tolook at it that way of like, how

(10:18):
can I look at my commitments andwhich ones are starting to feel
like that icky red flagobligation and which ones can I
bring a sense of devotion to? Soin the sense of a partner,
right?
If I'm feeling secure with mypartner, I can confidently say,
no, I don't want to do thatthing right now without the fear

(10:39):
of like, oh, you're going toabandon me.

Ms. Elle X (10:41):
Yes. Yes. Exactly. And so really that security and
knowing that you're loved isreally the the foundation of
rest for me in how I vieweverything. Because if you if
you are saying yes becauseyou're afraid to say no, that's
not consent.
Mhmm. That's an act of selfbetrayal. And so if you look at

(11:03):
it through that lens that myrest is an act of setting
boundaries, which is an act ofself advocacy, which is the most
dominant thing I could do. Metelling that submissive, no. No.
No. I know that you still wannaplay, baby, but I'm done. I am
not a kink dispenser. You don'tget to objectify me. My rest

(11:26):
becomes my identity in terms ofI am a person, not an object.
I'm a person, not a kinkdispenser. And and so it's a
very it's a very powerful act ofself empowerment and self
advocacy to step in there andgo, no. I know that you want
more. I know that you want moreplay. I know that you want more

(11:48):
domination, but you have towait.

That's right. And Mhmm. That right there is such a
paradigm shift of the of atleast when I was coming into the
space and learning aboutdifferent roles. I was like, oh,
the dominant always has to beon. It always has to be holding
space and doing the things.
And if I signed up for aspanking scene, I have to uphold

(12:11):
my obligation.

Ms. Elle X (12:13):
There it is. And

then all of a sudden I'm in something and I'm
feeling icky and I'm not fullyonline and I'm just like yelling
bad. And I didn't allow myselfto say, no, I'm a tired dom. And
so I cannot and won't do thisanymore. Doesn't matter what I
said. Doesn't matter if I heldit up as a commitment at one
point.
I have the right and theresponsibility as a leader to

(12:37):
say no.

Ms. Elle X (12:38):
Yes.

Yes. So I'm I'm sort of interested. I wanna dive
a little deeper into the BDSM,but my my experience of it so
far has been that there is arobust communication and
dialogue that is occurring inthese spaces. That's what I've
witnessed and and and heard. Andso I'm I'm curious for for
people who aren't in that spaceand they're in relationships

(13:00):
where they don't feel like, thisidea of, like, well, if you feel
secure in your love, it's like,okay.
Well, what if you don't? Mhmm.And so which I know is like the
the beginning of we could doeight episodes to, like, break
that apart. What what what mightyou say to someone, I'm in a
relationship. I don't feeltotally secure in my love.
I'm now because I'm hearing thisrecognizing that I am not

(13:22):
advocating for myself or I'mabandoning myself in certain
ways. Like, where does someonestart to create the change they
wanna create?

Ms. Elle X (13:31):
Yeah. I would say self awareness is going to be
number one. Like, Eric, you werementioning a few minutes ago
where you kept saying that ickyfeeling, that icky feeling. When
we can put language to that ickyfeeling, so much power gets put
into our hands. And so I believeon the outline forgive me for

(13:53):
looking ahead, but I believe onthe outline, one of the points
was talking about, really, howdo you start stepping into this?
And I believe, Tim, that's alsokind of what you're asking. And
for me, personally, I can'tspeak to every dominant, every
leader, but for me personally,it it was a matter of me working
with my, my therapist and andreally understanding the

(14:17):
physical sensation. So youreally wanna link to embodiment
work, the physical sensations oficky. When I feel icky, let's
put a word to that and let's puta physical sensation to that.
Because I know you're infitness, I also started out as a
personal trainer, and that's howI got linked into professional

(14:41):
domination, but that's a wholedifferent episode.
But the mind body connection isincredibly powerful, as you
know. And so when we're tappinginto this level of self
awareness, it's allowingyourself I think giving yourself
the permission to acknowledgethat you feel icky and not

(15:02):
gaslighting yourself out ofthat. Like, this is making me
feel uncomfortable. This ismaking me feel obligated and
burnt out and more shut down.It's fine.
I committed. I'm gonna do itanyway or whatever, and I'm just
gonna go along with it. And wewe we ignore the red flags that

(15:23):
our nervous system is giving us,And we just plow through it, and
I think the heart can be reallybeautiful. I say all the time to
my community, compassion withoutboundaries is codependency. K?
Because the same thing here. Ifyou are if you're so
compassionate about that person,that relationship, that

(15:45):
situation that you will not setboundaries, not advocate for
your rest, not say no, you'renot actually being full of love
and full compassion. You'reactually being codependent. And
so when you realize it'sactually an act of self
betrayal, when I don't advocate,when I don't rest, and when I

(16:06):
don't actually tell that person,no. I don't have the capacity or
this is making me feel icky, andwe go into that self gaslighting
to force ourself to show up in asituation we're not actually
safe or comfortable in, thatdoesn't do anyone any good.

And this feels like you're talking about when
when we get into that place,this is the time when we will
push ourselves beyond and thenget back to that that hard
boundary to be like, oh, I'vepushed myself. It's been in the
name of these elevated thingslike altruism or compassion or
connection or whatever. And thenat some point, now I'm so weary
or drained that then I get sortof like edgy. I love that you're

(16:45):
talking about this because thispractice that you just described
in your own words isfoundational in men's work.

Ms. Elle X (16:52):
Mhmm.

The the the looking into our physical body
for the wisdom that it has. And,you know, I've I've heard in
many books that the body doesn'tlie. So if I'm having a icky
feeling

Ms. Elle X (17:05):
Mhmm.

At the very minimum, I know that I need to
pay attention to that in thesame way that when I'm having
that light time seems to standstill kind of feeling, well,
that's also information. It'sjust the the trickier feelings
are the ones we might wanna payattention to because that's
probably when we're on theprecipice of self abandonment
or, you know, not Yes. Holdingour own boundaries or

(17:28):
commitments.

Ms. Elle X (17:29):
Yes. Yes. And I love the word that you used, like,
having that sharp edge to yourboundary because I think a lot
of people view settingboundaries that way. Like, I
don't wanna be a bitch. Like, Idon't I don't wanna come across
in some type of way.
Number one, don't be afraid tocome across in some type of way.

(17:50):
You cannot control anyone else'sperception of you. That is their
responsibility. But, yeah, it'sit's this it's this shame. I
think there's a lot of shame.
I think when you don't feel safeand you don't feel secure, there
is this sense of people pleasingunder a virtuous name. I tell my

(18:12):
I tell my community all thetime, when we give, like you
said, in the name of altruism,whatever, when we give
dysfunction a virtuous name, weempower the dysfunction. And so
when we are calling ourdysfunction, our chronic lone
wolf syndrome because we haven'thealed from our childhood
wounds, and we can't ask forhelp and all of that, okay, call

(18:34):
down a little bit. Sorry. Sorry.
When when we are calling thatindependence, that that hyper
independence, that lone wolf,when we're calling that success
and independence, when reallyit's we're scared and we feel

(18:55):
insecure, we're giving adysfunction a virtuous name, and
therefore we empower thedysfunction instead of weeding
out the dysfunction. And so Ithink if we're just if we're
honest with ourselves, like, mepersonally, when I started doing
this work, it started to feellike I had a, like, a weight,

(19:16):
like like a, like, a plateweight from the gym in my
stomach. And every time I feltpulled to act out of
codependency, it literally feltlike that other person had a
rope attached to the weight, andI was being pulled forward. Like
like, I was not propellingmyself forward in my own

(19:38):
independence that something wasbeing pulled out of me that was
actually antagonistic to mywill, violating to my will. And
that was the first sign of, oh,I am no longer in compassion
territory.
I'm in fucking codependentterritory. And so it it became

(20:02):
doing that work because youasked. I'm trying to kind of
come back. Where do you startwith all of this? It's that.
It's the embodiment. It's tuninginto your body and your nervous
system and those sensations. Butthen the language, it's, well,
what is this? I feel controlledright now. I feel anxious right

(20:24):
now.
I feel whatever it is right now.Putting language to that so you
can go, okay, this choice isgoing to lead me into anxiety.
What choice will lead me intopeace?

And frequently, the choice that will lead to peace
is recuperation, some sort ofform of rest. It is that no.
Hopefully, we've gotten to aplace that it's not a fuck no.
It's not the hard boundary no,but it is a no, my love, not
right now. How about this as analternative because, like, I

(20:58):
need some rest or whatever

Ms. Elle X (20:59):
it might be.

And just to really quick, I like, I I do believe
that there are some occasionswhere a really hard boundary is
absolutely appropriate orneeded. But it sounds like based
on the studies that I've had inthis conversation that most
boundary setting like, that thatreally hard boundary would be
very specific situations, andmost boundaries could come in in

(21:21):
a much more compassionate,heartfelt way, a softer way. We
don't we don't need that. Wemight need to be able to do it
in the right timing, but wedon't need it almost all the
time.

So we reframed rest. So it's not this moment of
weakness. It really is apowerful form of self advocacy.
And so curious, let's take itinto the BDSM realm.

Ms. Elle X (21:45):
I was hoping we'd get there eventually.

What are some of the most surprising reasons that
people come to you? And have younoticed an undercurrent of the
desperate need to just rest,take a break?

Ms. Elle X (21:59):
Oh, yes. Oh, yes. This is this is to me the crux
of it. Throughout the years,I've really seen you know, in
vanilla spaces, we have sexdrive. We have libido.
And that is what is referred toas arousal. But in kink, there

(22:22):
are multiple points of arousal.You can have sexual arousal. You
can have dominant arousal. Youcan have submissive arousal.
You can have kink arousal. Soyou could be arousing. You could
be activating any one of theselanes at any point. And I think
although there are kink arousaland sex arousal that is

(22:42):
absolutely activated, I haveseen just as the, if this is
appropriate term, the plumb linethroughout everything is I need
to rest. I need to feel seen.
That's a huge one. That's a hugepart of the work that we do as

(23:03):
dominance is literally being sopresent and holding so much
space for someone that they feelso exposed in a way that they
can't access elsewhere. So Ithink it's feeling seen, and
it's also, I'm giving you aplace where you don't have to be

(23:23):
responsible anymore. You don'thave to check out any or you can
check out. You don't have to beon anymore.
And that was actually my initialunderstanding of BDSM. I got
introduced to the lifestyle at13 years old by an episode of
CSI. Mhmm. Mhmm. With ladyHeather, who was the house

(23:48):
mistress of this dungeon.
And she as a little tiny cutelittle virgin girl, 13 years
old, I watched her. She was thedominant of the dominatrixes.
She was the one that empoweredthe dominatrixes. She was the
one that gave them a space to bedominant. And I've I thought, we

(24:10):
have the same thing.
And it was it was so powerfulbecause she said this line in
there that said, nighttime iswhen all the needy little boys
come out to play. And I thoughtthat's fascinating because the
juxtaposition was the clientsthat were coming in were high

(24:31):
powered men, CEOs and managersand businessmen and
entrepreneurs and lawyers. Andshe viewed them as needy little
boys who were just so tired thatthey needed a place to check
out. And so from the time I was13 years old, that was my

(24:54):
initial paradigm to BDSM. It's ait's a place for people to rest.

I wanna pause for a second because this idea of
being seen, I think, I think isso important. I know that it's
been important with me and mytherapist and, you know

Ms. Elle X (25:08):
Cheers to therapy.

Here. Here. Right? Hi, Dre. Just so that people are
clear, and and I wanna come backto the how it happens in BDSM,
but being seen can be so manythings.
And for me, it's mainly like,oh, a recognition of my
authentic self and an allowancefor that, whatever that is, to
be be present. And I feel likethat's what you're discussing

(25:33):
too. So can you just talk alittle bit about how either a
dom or a sub can can helpsomeone feel seen and and why
that is so healing and safe.

Ms. Elle X (25:46):
I think if I could sum it up in my unique way,
being seen reinforces youridentity. Identity is the most
valuable thing that we have. Soif you feel invisible, what
worth do you have?

And

Ms. Elle X (26:09):
if you feel like, I am here, I'm showing up, I'm
working so hard, but nobody seesme, you're not gonna rest.
You're gonna work more. You'regonna work more to feel seen.
You're gonna work more to proveyourself. You're gonna work more
to show, hey.
Look what I've accomplished.Look what I've done. Look at my
subscribers. Look at mycommunity. Look at my

(26:29):
accomplishments.
And that is what breeds thiswork, work, work. I can't rest.
I can't rest. I can't rest. Butwhen you're seen, you go, hey.
Stop. You've done enough. It'sokay. You can let go now. You
don't have to try anymore.

(26:49):
You are enough as you are. Andin this space, you're free.
There is no work or earning orstriving in this space. There's
freedom and rest. And when yougive someone permission, just

(27:13):
stop, honey.
Baby, just stop. You can checkout all the responsibility out
there. I know it's a lot. You'vedone enough. Come into this
space.
And to me, that's how I'vealways viewed it is when I see
you, I'm acknowledging that youexist. I'm acknowledging that

(27:35):
you have value. And if I amdominating you, then I'm
investing time into you, whichmeans I see value in you enough
where I want to invest time intoyou. And so I think just the act
of being with a dominant islike, wow. This dominant sees me
and likes me and wants my energyaround them.

(27:58):
And for very busyentrepreneurial overworked
introverted dominance

Clocked and clocked.

Ms. Elle X (28:09):
There is no better, there's no better compliment
that I could give a submissiveto go come into my space because
you don't drain me. You know?Come into my come into this
space because we can actuallybenefit from each other in this
space kind of thing.

That's such a yogic concept. What I'm really
hearing you talk about is amutually beneficial
relationship.

Ms. Elle X (28:33):
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's why I say that to me,
vanilla doesn't exist. DS existsin every relationship structure.
You describe any relationshipyou have with your mom, your
dad, your siblings, yourfriends, coworkers.
I will be able to identify whois dominant and who is
submissive in that dynamic. Itexists everywhere. The only

(28:56):
thing that we do differently inVDSM is we put language to it,
and then we exploit what thoseroles provide in relationship.
That's really all we do.

I'm really curious. A short aside, do you
find that people in queerrelationships, same sex
relationships, ebb and flowbetween the dom and sub poles
more, or do you feel like almosteveryone is constantly ebbing
and flowing between these polesin the in the unfolding of their

(29:27):
relationship.

Ms. Elle X (29:27):
I do think that, yes, the ebb and flow of
dominant and submissive is inevery every relationship, every
dynamic, two men, two women, oneman, one woman. I think it's
just everywhere. I think thatwhen you have two partners that
are more switchy or morebalanced, less polarized in

(29:50):
their dominant end submission,that's where the ebb and flow
can seem a little crazy andchaotic sometimes. But, I think
that ebb and flow is alwaysthere no matter what kind of
relationship structure. It'slike the friend group where the
one friend is always paying foreveryone else and the one friend
that's always forgetting theirmoney.

(30:12):
Who's dominant and who'ssubmissive?

Well, thank you for that. I think that really
answers the question. In men'sworkspaces, they talk a lot
about polarity, and the the thelanguage is often masculine and
feminine. Now in our queerspace, I often prefer something
more like yin and yang, sun andmoon, something a little bit
less gender, but they will talkabout, well, who's holding this

(30:34):
poll and who's holding thispoll. And it feels like there's
a little bit of crossover.

I think we could call it leadership and
followership. Like who's leadingand who's following? We say this
in dance. And so it's like who'sgot the the masculine pole?
Who's got the feminine pole?
Who is leading and who isfollowing?

And that actually so I'm glad you brought up
dancing again because you know Ilove talking about it. As what

Ms. Elle X (31:02):
Oh, look. I was I was already a step ahead. I felt
it coming intuitively.

So it was always said, you know, in in partner
dancing, especially, you know,like, ballroom or or swing
dancing, oftentimes, if you werea man, you would be the the the
lead, and if you were a woman,you'd be the follow. But they
would say, like, oh, in order tobe a really good lead, you have
to also know how to follow. Andso the leads would then practice
being the follow in whatevertechnique they were doing. So

(31:29):
West Coast Swing or Cha Chadoesn't really matter. The if
you like, by learning thatskill, you know and so I'm
curious, is that true for BDSM?

Ms. Elle X (31:37):
In my opinion, yes. I do believe the best dominance
have been submissive. I havebeen in the lifestyle, like I
said, from the time I was 13years old. I was introduced to
it. I had my first daddy dom at16.
He was 35. I was 16. No minorsin kink, but that's beside the

(31:59):
point. And so my firstexperiences of actually
physical, real life experiencesin the community were from the
bottom side. And it was on thebottom side that I learned, this
is what I like from a top.
This is how I like being led.This is how I get activated and

(32:23):
triggered in a bad way. Here arethe things that I would never
want a top, a dominant to do. Soit's like you have so much
empathy that comes from just,like, being in such a vulnerable
open position that when you getin a place of power, hopefully,

(32:44):
you bring that empathy with youand and kind of reverse engineer
it and go, okay, if I didn'tlike this on the bottom side,
I'm certainly not gonna do thisto someone on the top side.

And this is a beautiful parallel for for the
entire conversation. The reasonwhy we're using BDSM kind of as
the the case study is it can beapplied universally. So in this
exact moment, that was mytrajectory in my corporate
career.

Ms. Elle X (33:08):
Talk about it.

Looking at management, looking at leaders,
and saying, absolutely not. Iwill never do that as a leader,
as a manager. And then as Iworked my way up, learning from
that, learning to be the worker,learning to be the follower,
learning to be the submissive inthe relationship with a person

(33:30):
who was above me, who was theleader, who was my dominant, and
then saying, when I'm in yourshoes, I will never do that. I'm
gonna do this instead.

I also think it trains a kind of listening. Oh,
yeah. And that when when you arefollowing, so I'm gonna go back
to dance since that's, you know,more my purview. Like, if you're
following Is

Ms. Elle X (33:47):
that do we Let's

do it. Hydrate. Marcella's really good at
following rules, making rules,and upholding people to rules.

Okay. I love it. The the the skill of listening
and with a dance form, it'salmost instantaneous sort of
physical communication. There'srarely someone saying step your
right foot forward. These aretechniques.
You know? And and then I thinkthat training and listening

(34:19):
translates even if you don'tneed it in the exact same way.
So, yeah, when you're talkingabout, like, leadership, right,
I learned. I I had to listen tothese instructions over and over
and over again. So now I'm gonnagive the instructions I think
would have been the clearest orthe Yeah.
The most helpful or the mostempowering or or or, you know,
whatever depending on the task.You know? And I think they're

(34:42):
I'm like, wow. That's reallyvaluable. That that is time well
spent if you walk away saying, Ican communicate better, more
compassionately, and be be ofgreater service because I heard
this, and now I say it this way.

Ms. Elle X (34:54):
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But it requires humility. So
much humility, and that's thekey. Like, I've worked with
submissives that were nothumble, and it's gross.
It's disgusting. I yeet them. Idon't wanna be around that.
Right? It's gross.
But it's it's just it's equallyoff putting from the top side

(35:15):
too. And so, yes, there by goingthrough the submissive
experience or bottoming, you doget a level of empathy that if
you are humble, and that's thekey. If you have empathy without
humility, then what you have isa weapon to manipulate somebody
with. Like, I've had you youtell a narcissist your deepest,

(35:38):
darkest secrets and fears andinsecurities, they're not gonna
get compassionate with you.They're gonna weaponize it.

We're getting truth bombs. Mhmm. Like the
yeah.

Ms. Elle X (35:48):
I'm sorry. Was I are we are we free of truth bombs?
Do we not want truth bombs?

No. No. No. Here.

Yeah. I've just I've just got a duck and cover
right now. I

got a

shelter in place.

Ms. Elle X (35:59):
Oh, if I'm calling you out, I'm so sorry.

No. It is it it it's really powerful, like, what
you just said. And empathyrequires what again? What was
the word you used?

Ms. Elle X (36:09):
Humility. Humility. Humility. Yeah. Yeah.
If you have all of theseexperiences on the bottom side
and you know the inner workingsof the submissive experience,
and you know how to really getinto the mind, and you know how
to wield certain emotional,physical, sexual reactions, but
you don't have the humility todo it with integrity?

Weapon.

Ms. Elle X (36:34):
It's a weapon. And that's why, like, there's risk
in erotic intelligence. There'srisk in the skills that I teach,
but there's risk in everything.There's risk in everything. And
and the benefit for people mustoutweigh the risk.
And I truly believe that. Itruly believe if you know how to
communicate well in yourrelationship, you know how to be

(36:58):
present, be attentive, holdspace, set the appropriate
boundaries, You set yourself andyour partner up for this ebb and
flow, this ongoing erotic powerexchange that doesn't have to
die on a bad day. You canleverage your opportunities and
your circumstances around youfor greater connection.

I'm curious because the the bad day idea,
this because I think when wewhen we hear these things, these
skills, I mean, like, oh, theyhave to be done right. But it
feels to me based on what I'mhearing that there's an
allowance for it not to alwaysbe perfect and that if the trust
and the communication and theboundaries and the expectations

(37:40):
of all these things are presentin in integrity, then something
can go a little awry and becourse corrected. Am I hearing
you correctly?

Ms. Elle X (37:48):
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think if you're in
if you're in relationship withsomeone that you don't feel like
you are allowed to be humanenough to make a little mistake
and course correct, you need toget out of that relationship.

Another truth bomb. Mhmm.

Ms. Elle X (38:06):
I mean Yeah. Y'all wanted to know, like, what what
do people do if they'relistening to this and they're in
this relationship, they don'tfeel safe with someone. I would
say take inventory. How longhave you been with this person?
If you've been with this personover a year, over two years, you
don't feel safe with thisperson, that is not the
relationship for you.
What are you doing? Wasting yourtime.

And walk walk the people through the ladder. If
you don't feel safe, then thereis no chance to build

Ms. Elle X (38:33):
Come on. You know it.

If if you do not feel safe, there is no way you
are going to trust that person.

If you

do not trust that person, there is no way that you
are going to be vulnerable withthat person. And if you are not
vulnerable with that person, howare you going to have an
intimate relation and anintimate connection with them?
Intimacy. Into me, you see. Youcannot see into me if I don't
feel safe.
You cannot see into me if Idon't trust you. You cannot see
into me if I am not vulnerablewith you.

Because vulnerability is the act of
allowing parts of us to be seen.Right?

Ms. Elle X (39:06):
Yeah.

Back to feeling seen.

Yeah. So Yes. So, like so if I'm if I'm not
allowing you to see parts of mebecause I feel like they are at
risk or that you can't hold themwith compassion, then I'm
hiding, and then thereforewhatever interaction I'm having
isn't fully me. Is that what I'mhearing? Yeah.

Ms. Elle X (39:23):
I feel like if you don't feel like if you don't
feel safe enough to be humanwith your partner, be real with
your partner, then I think itwould be we've either got a
narcissistic situation going onor some of some rejection
sensitivity is running the show.And either way, that's not a
good option. I don't need toknow much else after that either

(39:44):
way.

Rejection sensitivity, I I think you've
mentioned it once before. Thatfeels like can you just define
it? Because I feel like that's athing most of us have.

Ms. Elle X (39:55):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Can just Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.

Can you just talk a Absolutely. Little bit about

Ms. Elle X (40:01):
Yeah. I think, honestly, I don't understand how
these little baby things aregrowing up with this social
media and all of this, like,it's causing chronic rejection
sensitivity in this newgeneration where it's become
part of their personalities.This is why we have so many I
truly believe these these mentalhealth issues and stuff. It's

(40:24):
like, you're you are living waytoo much here online and getting
constant criticism from peoplewho should have no place to
speak in your life. And so Ithink rejection sensitivity
comes from old wounds, comesfrom being bullied in school,
being rejected by our firstlove.

(40:46):
You know? It could be anything,but I think I think deep
rejection sensitivity is verylinked to attachment theory,
which is usually grounded aroundage seven. And so I think a lot
of it stems from just ourparents aren't perfect. Our our
childhoods aren't perfect. Otherchildren are mean and ridiculous

(41:09):
and all these other things thatwe go through in life.
Right? And we grow up with thatwounded inner child inside of us
that is still feeling like thatscared, rejected. Nobody likes
me. Nobody wants me. Six, sevenyear old little boy, little
girl.

(41:29):
But we're this big buff man. Andwe're this big, strong
entrepreneur, or we're thisstrong badass dominatrix, and we
cannot let anyone see that ourinner child is really online. I
think that really is rejectionsensitivity. When those wounds
in our inner child shows up andsays, I don't feel safe, and I

(41:52):
don't feel valuable, and I don'tfeel worthy to be here. I think
that's really a big part ofrejection sensitivity.
So if our inner child is onlineand we're we are in our big buff
adult body, but our inner childis online, then we're going to
engage in that relationship, notfrom this place that we're

(42:13):
manifesting on the outside, butreally what's authentic on the
inside, that unhealed wound.

And so this is sort of bringing it back then.
The first step needs to be aconversation with your internal
sensational experience to helpme recognize, oh, I'm operating
from rejection sensitivity.Before before I'm able to make a
change, because obviously we allprobably have prayed for the
light switch. Mhmm. Like,they're like, I'm going through

(42:39):
a breakup, and I just wanna goover there and flip the switch,
and I don't want it to hurtanymore.
Right? But but since that lightswitch doesn't exist, we first
have to say, okay. Well, what'shappening in me? Oh, is this
rejection sensitivity? Thatwould be step one.
Right? It is it isn't a magicwand. It's how we recognize,
well, this is what I'm doing,and this is how that's making me

(43:01):
feel.

Ms. Elle X (43:02):
Yeah. Yeah. It really is an organic process,
and I think it it ties back intothe sharp edge that you were
talking about earlier. That ifwe can stay aware enough when
little triggers come up, when wefeel a little bit pushed, when
we feel a little bit controlled,when we feel a little bit
violated, we actually saysomething right there in the

(43:24):
moment, take rest, take space,set a boundary, whatever we need
to do so that it doesn't get tothe extreme where we have to
have that very, very strongedge. So it is a matter of this
is how I'm feeling.
This is what happened. How willI choose to go forward in a way

(43:48):
that serves me, not my innerchild? Because at that point,
you wanna talk about DS, thatinner child is the submissive,
and you and your adult self isthe dominant. And you now have
to reparent that inner child.You now have to dominate that
inner child.
And so this work is not aboutfollowing your feelings. I don't
believe that at all. Feelingsmake excellent slaves, terrible

(44:12):
masters. Do not follow yourfeelings. K?
But I think feeling awarenesswhere you go, okay. Here are my
feelings, and my feelings caninform my decisions. My feelings
do not control my decisions. Myfeelings are allowed to inform
my decisions. And right now, I'mfeeling violated.
I'm feeling icky. I'm feelingwhatever it is. So even if I

(44:36):
don't know what's going on, I'mgonna take space and maybe
circle back to it. Just givingyourself that permission, I
think, is huge.

Because the feeling component of it is gonna
be one of the tools that we useto recognize if a dynamic is
working for us or not. And itisn't and then what I feel like
I'm hearing you say is the adultversion of us or the the
dominant aspect of us is thengonna make some conscious
choices hopefully with, like,rest and space in service to

(45:06):
what our purpose is, what ourmission is, like, what what this
adult person moving to the worldwants. Right? So the inner
child, it seems to me, wants tojust feel better. I want I want
whatever.

Ms. Elle X (45:16):
Usually.

Yeah. I just wanna feel better. But but what I'm
hearing is but so we use thatemotion, that feeling as an
indication something about thisisn't right. Now the adult me,
the dom me has to step onlineand do some do some
introspection and some awarenesswork to figure out what I think
that might be and then but thenmake conscious choices that are

(45:37):
not based on the emotions.Meaning, like, I'm not going to
lash out at you because thatwill feel good for a second, but
instead, what's in service to mypurpose or the person I'm
yearning to be.
Right. And what

will serve the space or the scene that's
happening right now, steppinginto that leadership position
and making the choices, settingthe stage, creating the space in
which this can happen. And thatcan be internal space, external
space, a dungeon, a room, orjust our internal landscape. And
I think this is the powerful,like, parallel that we get to

(46:13):
draw with with BDSM, with DSspecifically, is within so many
aspects of our life, ourinternal relationship, our
external relationships, and howthen do we step into those
positions of leadership so thatwe can allow others to rest in
that space

Ms. Elle X (46:33):
Yes. Including

our inner child. If the inner child is always online
banging at the door at thebottom of the stairs freaking
out, that is a tired, needylittle boy.

Ms. Elle X (46:44):
And that's where a lot of brats come in.

Yeah.

Episode three coming coming.

Yes. Yeah.

Ms. Elle X (46:56):
And part of that, like, for me, I'm a natural
degrader. I'm I'm a sexualswitch. So I I like things as a
sexual bottom, or I like thingsas a as a dominant on the top
side that I do not tolerate as asexual bottom. And one of those
is I am a very skilled degraderon the top side and very easy

(47:21):
for me to go into degradation,humiliation. But on the bottom
side, that is absolutely anonnegotiable for me.
And so it's really, like, eveneven understanding, like, your
switch points and advocating foryourself on the top side in a
different way than you do on thebottom side. It gets so layered,

(47:45):
all of these angles. Go ahead.

Switch points. So I I'm actually gonna ask. It
would be interesting for us todo for the description of this
episode a little glossary ofsome of these terms for anyone
listening just so that we'reclear. But the switch point
feels like a really powerfulthing that I've experienced, I
think, in other aspects of mylife. When I'm this ability and

(48:08):
this desire to when I'm in thesesituations, I can show up like
this.
And then when I'm in thesesituations, I tend or am more
naturally prone to show up likethis, and that's okay. And as
opposed to this idea of and Ithink men, you know, in men's
work spaces are working throughthis idea of I'm supposed to be
this thing all the time. I'msupposed to always have the
right answer, always be strong,never need help. I'm supposed to

(48:31):
be good at bed Always be

in charge.

Without ever asking, you know, what my
partner needs. I'm supposed tobe really good at sex. So, like,
I'm supposed to you know, allthese things. And I think the
human experience is one where,well, I'm sometimes this here,
and I'm sometimes this here, andwe could have a conversation
about that and allow that to befully true. And I will give an
example.
I was working at Crunch Fitnesswhen I was in early in my

(48:55):
schooling to be a dancer. Iagree. To be a dancer. Okay. I
remember my my friends with whomI had been dancing, they came to
see me at work.
And they were like, Jim, youknow, you seem so upset. Like,
what's going on? I'm like, I'mnot upset. I'm the manager. I
played with you in rehearsalbecause that's a totally
different environment, and wehave the space for that.

(49:16):
And we're also dancing, we'resweaty. And, you know, I we we
worked hard at dance rehearsalstoo, but there was room for it.
I'm like, I'm the manager now.

Ms. Elle X (49:23):
Everyone This is my resting manager face.

Yeah. Everyone everyone I'm a manager for
people who are older than me.Everyone here is older than me,
and I'm the manager. I'm like, Idon't have the luxury right now,
but I'm like, but it's stillauthentically me. I didn't I
actually wasn't feeling angry,but it was interesting that the
perception was that I was.
I'm like, oh, because you'recomparing me to this other
thing, and it's all me. Yes.They're all real me.

Ms. Elle X (49:46):
Yes.

And so I think I love that we're having this
conversation because I think weneed more of it. Like, I don't
always have to be in charge, butsometimes I am.

Ms. Elle X (49:54):
Yes. And embrace it. Like, when when I am on, like, I
have a very I have a very strictlike, when I am in work mode,
I'm also in dom mode. So, like,that whole space flows very
naturally for me. It's notsexual or feminine in any way,
shape, or form.
So when I clock out, it is notjust I'm clocking out of work

(50:20):
entrepreneurial mode. It's I'mclocking out of this dominant
masculine, hard, cerebralheadspace, and I am choosing to
go, I wanna check the fuck outand get back into my feminine
energy again. And so and it is.It's a matter of that switch
point becomes a choice of rest.For those switches out there,

(50:43):
that switch point becomes achoice of rest.
It is not I'm incapable of beingdominant anymore. It's I've been
doing it for a minute, and I'mdone doing it.

That's right. And it's a courageous act to say, I
need space. I need rest, And Ineed to just take a beat. And to
be able to do that with somebodythen, in order, if you can be so
vulnerable with somebody, to beseen in that, to be seen in the,

(51:17):
oh, I am tired right now, or Ineed to not take on this
additional responsibility and Ineed to hand over the masculine
baton to you for a second. Thatcould be an internal dialogue or
it can be an external dialogue.

Ms. Elle X (51:31):
Yes.

And that capacity to recognize when that moment
is, to take that rest, sopowerful. So I want to be
mindful of time and start to getus towards the finish line for
this episode because we arefifty minutes in, close to
sixty, and we have barelyscratched two segments of a of a

(51:55):
five, six segment outline.

Ms. Elle X (51:57):
You you knew what you got when you got me.

Uh-huh. Lovingly and so excitedly so for for all
y'all listening. Like, miss Ellehas lives on YouTube, and she
has a Discord community. And thewisdom that she has dropped in
this episode is so juicy, sodelicious, so mind blowing. It

(52:25):
happens so frequently on herYouTube lives.
I will sit there and and, like,group watch it with friends, and
we just, like, gag at eachother. We're just like, ah, ah,
ah. It's just like the capacity,yeah, is really incredible. So
that brings me to the place thatI would like to leave here. How
does a person who is thedominant of dominance, who is

(52:48):
the lady Heather, was it?

Ms. Elle X (52:50):
The lady Heather. Yeah.

Who is holding space or those that hold space?
How did they take their rest?

Ms. Elle X (52:59):
Unapologetically. Without giving a shit what other
people think. It's it's a trickyone because I I always have
people or projects vying at me.I mean, I get I get people on a

(53:20):
daily basis, mistress, I wannaserve you. Goddess, can I serve
you?
And I don't even advertise forthat anymore. And so it it's
just this matter of anythingthat you put on the altar of
social media will be burned byfire. Anything you put up on the
altar of social media will beburned by fire. So I do not put

(53:40):
my personal life on socialmedia. I do not put when I check
out.
So I, number one, do not haveany personal social media
accounts. Not one. Every accountthat I have is strictly for the
business because I don't I'm noton social media when I'm not
working. And so for me, myboundaries are very

(54:00):
unapologetic, and they are verythey're very strict. I don't
have time to mess around.
And if me self advocating for myrest appropriately makes you
perceive me in some type of way,then perceive me in some type of
way. But I have but I have shitto do, and I cannot let your

(54:21):
false perception of me get meinto a place of burnout. You do
not have that have thatauthority over me. You do not
have that power over me to guiltme or shame me or make me feel
insecure enough to control thepace of my purpose.

To control the pace of my purpose.

Ms. Elle X (54:41):
And and that's part of why I said rest and
boundaries. There's nothing thatmakes you any more dominant
because you are saying, no. Youdon't control me. I'm sorry that
you have demands for me, but Ichoose what I receive. And if
I'm at capacity, you do not getto push your agenda onto me.

(55:04):
And so it it's come from a placeof surviving eight years of a
highly abusive marriage with acovert narcissist because I
didn't set boundaries. I was abroken little girl with no
identity, no sense of worth. Iwanted somebody to see me, and

(55:26):
this covert narcissist said, ifyou trust me, I can help you.
And it was my lack of bounty.Yes.
It was his abuse being abusive.Right? But if I had had the self
advocacy to say, no. You are notallowed to abuse me, that's a

(55:47):
whole different ballgame.

So this is so perfect. I mean, you are you are
basically describing this ideaof the wounded healer, and my
teacher talks about this all thetime, that we take our
experiences like the one youjust described, and now you have
transmuted it into havinglearned from that to heal
yourself and then to bringnourishment and safety and

(56:10):
exploration to others. And thatis really at the crux of the
shamanic yoga embodiment workthat we do, which is, you know,
a lot of personal healing workin service to that. So then I
take I can give from myexperience in a way that may be
of service. So thank you so muchfor sharing that Yeah.
Because the world needs it. Andand it really the world needs

(56:32):
people willing to do the work sothat I can say, I've already
been there. So maybe you don'thave to. Maybe you don't have to
do the thing I did for eightyears. I I think I heard you say
eight years.
Right? Yes. Yeah. Maybe someoneelse doesn't have to do it for
eight years. May maybe you canhelp them at the end of one year
to be like, the signs are there.

And so feel safe.

Wait. Yeah. Yeah. The the latter. Right?
Yeah. Yeah.

Ms. Elle X (56:54):
And I already said it. There we go. Yep.

Anyway, so thank you for demonstrating that
because it's a core principle inour community of, you know, the
gift we have to give is oftenfrom the wound that we healed or
are in process of healing. Andthat's it's just really it's
really beautiful. Thank you.

Ms. Elle X (57:13):
Aw. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. For me, your your
perspective is far morebeautiful than mine.
Mine is really, I'm not gonnalet all those years go wasted.
I'm not gonna let all thoseyears of me being forced to
shrink myself, shrink my voice,being abused and traumatized,

(57:34):
all those years, I'm not gonnawaste that pain. And and that
really is it. I'm just I'm fartoo tenacious to to allow that
to happen. So you're talking toan Enneagram eight.
I don't know what else to say.

I'm just always in awe. I love it. I love spending
time with you.

Ms. Elle X (57:53):
I love spending time with you. And now you, Tim.

Thank you so much. Yeah. Hearing you talk about
that of how does the domino ofthe dominance or Lady Ruth, Lady
Other take rest, it reminds meof Tim, actually, who in so many
parts of his life is in aposition of leadership. And at
our most recent retreat was ableto rest. Somebody else was able

(58:19):
to hold the container.
Somebody else was able to holdthe space so that Tim could in
that situation be a follower.

Ms. Elle X (58:30):
And I don't How did it feel?

I mean, I felt really loved. I I felt like some
of these people in my life who II mean, I think I felt seen.

Ms. Elle X (58:39):
Good.

And I was seen for what I had been able to bring,
but also for what I needed andthis allowance to be like, oh,
you're going through a reallyrough time, and that's okay
here. Yeah. This is why I thinkI'm so passionate about these
spaces because I felt a thing Irarely feel. And then I was safe

(59:01):
enough to to relax aroundaround, in this case, around men
that wanted nothing from meexcept my fullness, which is a
big part of men's I don't wantanything from you. I don't need
anything from you except yourfullness and whatever that
means.
And it just was reallyincredible. Very healing. It it
was the medicine I needed inthat moment.

Ms. Elle X (59:21):
Good. Rejuvenating. Yeah. Good. And I'm glad that
you facilitated that.

Definitely, I encouraged. Yeah. This is the
reminder for everyone. Rest andthe capacity to rest come in a
lot of different shapes andsizes. It is my hope, my wish,
my prayer that anyone that islistening to this who is in a
position of leadership, whothinks that they always have to

(59:48):
be on, that they always have tobe in control, that they always
have to have the right answers,that they always have to be the
one with whatever.
And find what works for them totake their rest, whether that is
hiring a professional dominatrixor going to therapy, working on

(01:00:09):
yourself so that you can findthe words to articulate to
people. I have an feeling rightnow. I cannot take on any more
responsibility because it's nowstarting to feel like an
obligation. Obligation. Anobligation is getting me to my
limit, to my edge, and I'm burntthe fuck out.

(01:00:29):
And because I'm burnt out, I'mnot making good decisions, And
I'm not my most effectiveleader. And so this leader
actually needs to take a stepback, be a follower for a little
bit, and rest. That could be,again, something external
outside of us, or it could beinternal. So that really is what
I took away from this episode. Ihope episode one, several more

(01:00:54):
to come.
And with that, I am in deepappreciation and gratitude for
you taking this time to be herewith us, and I am feeling very
complete. And I'm gonna do theround robin now. I feel
complete. So

Ms. Elle X (01:01:06):
I feel complete. Is there another answer I should
provide at this juncture?

Eric Bomyea (01:01:09):
It's your opportunity where, if not
complete, to offer anythingelse.

Ms. Elle X (01:01:14):
To offer. I would I would probably just end on this
and say, dominance, leaders,whatever capacity you're in, you
cannot pour from an empty cup.You cannot give what you do not
have. And if you're trying topour out creative ideas for
scenes, but you're so burnt outthat you can't even think

(01:01:35):
creatively anymore, that's fullstop, man. Like, you are a human
being first, not a human doing.
You can stop. You can rest.Like, you cannot pour out from
an empty cup. You cannot givewhat you don't have. And it's
not selfish to make sure thatyou're full so that you can pour

(01:01:56):
out on others well.

Beautiful. Thank you so, so, so much. Now are you
feeling complete?

Ms. Elle X (01:02:01):
I think so.

Jamie,

Ms. Elle X (01:02:03):
He's how are he's having a dream right now. Aw.
He's he's dreaming. So, yes, butwe are we are good over here.

Tim, will you take us out, please?

Timothy Bish (01:02:12):
I will. So let's close our eyes or lower our gaze
and bring our awareness backinward for a moment. And it is
with deep appreciation andgratitude for the shared sacred
space, for this conversation,for any awarenesses,
understandings, or insights thatwe might have gained that we now
release the archetypes and thespirits that we've called in.
And with these words, ourcontainer is open but not

(01:02:34):
broken. Uh-huh.

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