In this episode of The Circle, Eric and Tim sit down with Jonathan Hammond—author, spiritual teacher, and trained shamanic practitioner—to explore how earth-based spirituality and Hawaiian wisdom can help us reclaim authenticity, heal limiting beliefs, and reimagine a more connected world. From the ancient role of queer people in shamanic cultures to the modern practice of manifestation, the conversation weaves together collective consciousness, two-spirit identity, imagination, and the sacred relationship between humans and the natural world.
Jonathan unpacks core teachings from his book The Shaman’s Mind, introduces two of the Seven Principles of Huna (including "The world is what you think it is" and "There are no limits"), and offers a powerful reminder that healing is a practice of choosing again—and again. Whether you're curious about spiritual practices outside of religion, seeking grounding during turbulent times, or looking to deepen your connection with your inner truth, this episode offers both inspiration and practical insight.
Topics covered include:
- What is shamanism and how it relates to queer identity
- Hawaiian spiritual psychology and the Seven Principles of Huna
- How nature models authenticity and interconnection
- The role of imagination in spiritual practice and personal growth
- Two-Spirit traditions and the sacredness of queerness
- Why belief shapes reality—and how to shift yours consciously
- How to stay centered and creative in a world that feels chaotic
- Spiritual leadership through example and choosing again
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric Bomyea (00:05):
Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go
all in on men's work, embodimentpractice, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. Ifyou haven't already, please be
sure to like, follow, andsubscribe. And of course, if
there's a topic you'd like toknow know more about, please
send us a message. We'd love tohear from you. Today, we're
joined by Jonathan Hammond, aMaui based author, spiritual
teacher, and energy healer.
(00:27):
A trained shamanic practitionerand counselor, Jonathan blends
Hawaiian wisdom, earth basedpsychology, and energy healing
in his work with clients allaround the world. Tim, Jonathan,
are you ready to go all in? I'mready. Aloha. Let's do this
then.
So Jonathan, welcome. I'm soglad you could join us today.
Jonathan Hammond (00:45):
So happy to be here. Thank you for having me,
guys.
Eric Bomyea (00:48):
So you live on Maui now. Correct?
Jonathan Hammond (00:51):
Correct.
Eric Bomyea (00:52):
So I'm curious. How has living on the island and
learning from that landinfluenced your path as a healer
and a teacher?
Jonathan Hammond (00:58):
I I just got much closer to nature. I I was a
shamanic practitioner andcounselor and all that in New
York City for twenty five years.That's how I met Tim. And it was
time to go, and I was one ofthose people who moved my my my
business online during COVID andcame here, and it's it's changed
(01:22):
in that I I feel very connectedto to nature now. I feel and I
you know, it's one thing to bein consciousness work.
It's another thing to tune intothat vast sky that I see every
day and, and the vast ocean thatI see every day and the whales
breaching that you can see fromyour car, and, all of that.
(01:43):
Headswing with the turtles as adaily experience and all that.
So it just it opened somethingin me in terms of I'd always
made a correlation betweenmental health and spiritual
attunement with nature, but itit deepened since I've been
here. So that's pretty much it.And, yeah, you know, I wrote a
book on Hawaiian spirituality.
So there was a point where itwas like, gotta kinda be on
(02:05):
brand and and move to the placewhere where where I've moved to
the horse's mouth, so to speak.So that's, that's what I did. So
I have, and I've left once. I'vebeen here four and a half years,
and I have left the island toteach one time. I've not, I've
not even gone to one of theother islands.
I'd like, there's where else areyou gonna go? It's, it's pretty
(02:27):
great.
Eric Bomyea (02:27):
There's a beautiful thing about finding your place
and and being really confidentin that place. So Yes. You you
mentioned your books. You're theauthor of The Shaman's Mind and
The Shaman Within. So for all ofour listeners and myself, I'm
wondering if you could just takeus to the basics.
What does the word shaman meanto you?
Jonathan Hammond (02:45):
The shaman is a is a healer, a healer of
relationships. The relationshipswe have between, ourselves and
others, between others andothers, between others and the
planet, between our mind and ourbody. It's a and the shaman
(03:08):
looks to nature. Nature is iswhat we worship in shamanism and
looks to nature to teach us howto be. Nature nature is a
template toward authenticity,interconnection,
interdependence, toward the thethe legitimacy of diversity,
(03:31):
which, you know, a healthyecosystem is based on a diverse
its its diverseness.
A monocrop will kill the land.So and nature is
unapologetically everything innature is unapologetically,
authentically itself and has nointerest in being something
other than itself, which is verydifferent than our human
culture. So so that's sort of,that's why it's it's my path.
(03:56):
And nature also, you know, inspirituality, we we think a lot
about morality and things likethat and a lot of a lot of,
like, religious wounding and allthat. And shamanism and earth
based spirituality is not somuch about being good.
It's about being true. I thinkthat's a helpful distinction.
Timothy Bish (04:14):
Sorry. So when we think about shamanism, my
understanding is that it is anumbrella term and that there are
so many different shamanicsystems. And and you wrote a
book about the Hawaiian shamanicsystem, but can you speak a
little bit to how shamanism hasat its core an essence even
though it can look and sounddifferent depending on the the
(04:37):
land and the people from whichit is birthed?
Jonathan Hammond (04:40):
Well, it it's it's a very loaded word, and
it's not a word people havecalled me that, but it's not a
word that I particularly wannatake up, and I'm not really the
(05:01):
esoteric translation is one whosees in the dark or one who sees
what others do not wish to see.That's the sort of esoteric,
translation. But it'sessentially the the the natural
healers connected to the land,connected to community,
connected to the naturalmedicines of the land, connected
to the spirit of the land, andand the spirit of their
(05:25):
community. And so so everyculture has a version of it. The
reason why I landed on Hawaiibesides the fact that I'm
obsessed with Hawaii Mhmm.
Was because as a as a shamanicstudent for many years, I was
looking for shamanism is veryyou know, it's about journeying.
It's about other worlds that youcan enter into. It's about
(05:48):
spirit guides, and all thatstuff is beautiful. But I was
really looking for somethingthat would ground my my
understanding psychologically inwhat was going on when we're
practicing shamanism. And thatreally and I found it in the in
the Hawaiian system.
The Hawaiian system is verypsychological, and it's very
philosophical. And and thathelped me kind of ground my my
(06:11):
understanding of shamanism andmy understanding of healing in
something that can bereplicated, in something that
can be taught to others, insomething that is is more in
alignment with, our contemporarypsychological paradigms that we
understand, and that really camefrom, from Hawaii. You wouldn't
think it, but Hawaii is very,the Hawaiian shamanism, has a
(06:33):
very psychological backbone toit. And so that's why, that's
why I sort of landed on it.
Timothy Bish (06:40):
So I'm curious for anyone who's listening who this
may be a new concept. Would youconsider the practices of yoga a
form of shamanism? And if not,like, what is the distinction?
Jonathan Hammond (06:51):
Any indigenous spiritual teaching that is
healing, that grows love, thatbrings people together, that
aligns oneself with oneself, Iwould consider I would consider
shamanic for sure. For sure. So,yeah, that's just that's just
that's just another system. Youknow? There's there's there's
nothing new under the sun.
(07:12):
Mhmm. And at the end of the dayat the end of the day, if you if
you go into any system, any truelegitimate system deeply enough
and with enough dedication, youwill find correlates of the same
truth. You know? So, yeah, I I Iwould I I think it's it's kind
of exactly the same. Not exactlythe same, but but very in
(07:33):
alignment.
And you know this, that so muchof of yoga has to do with
natural elements, sunsalutation, and and that kind of
thing. So, yeah, it's very, veryconnected for
Timothy Bish (07:43):
sure. I've often thought there was, like, an an
enormous amount of crossover inthat Venn diagram, and that's
always been, like, superexciting to
Eric Bomyea (07:49):
me and resonated with me deeply. I love this
concept of anything that alignsoneself to oneself. Right? And
that bringing ourselves back tohome and really working and
looking within first andforemost. And then I'm curious
how that principle then connectsto the direct relationship with
(08:10):
nature and how it is that we canthen cultivate that relationship
with nature.
Jonathan Hammond (08:16):
What needs healing? What needs healing in
all of us? Inauthenticity. Somesome idea or story of ourselves
usually taught to us or adoptedby us through what we've
experienced that is actually nottrue. That is a mistake.
That is contrary to our actualnature. And so healing is about,
if you think of shamanichealing, shamanic healing is
(08:37):
just about removing that whichobscures our nature or bringing
back that which is missing fromour nature. So so in in in our
connection with nature, whatwe're really looking at is an
interdependent world that isalive, that has a spirit, that
is, as I said, unapologeticallyunapologetically authentic to
(09:03):
itself, Spy wants for itself, isvery self interested, and also
at the same time collectivelyinterested, which is a very
separate from our human culture.Our human culture tends to be
tends to be self interested, andthe collective interest is we
cut corners on. And soindigenous mind or the shamanic
(09:27):
mind is one of equal selfinterest and collective
interest.
And so just as just as the treewants for itself and wants to
open itself to the sun and tothe rain and and all that, at
the same time, we're breathingthe tree. So it gives its gift
through its authenticity. And insome way, that is what we're
all, but I think our our ourpurpose on this planet is to
(09:50):
give the gift to the world thatcomes from our authenticity. And
so it's both. So it's it's adeep love of self that that gets
one on the path toward thegiving the gift of self to the
world.
And that's just epitomized innature.
Timothy Bish (10:10):
So I think you just answered this question with
with what you were saying. But,you know, my first primary
spiritual practice is yoga.That's what I have found. Yeah.
And one of the reasons Iresonated so deeply with yoga is
because there was no asterisk bymy name because I was a gay
person or a queer person.
Mhmm. And now, I'm hearing youtalk a lot about the value and
(10:32):
importance of authenticity inshamanism. Can you speak just a
little bit about the shamanicperspective of queerness and and
how that has operated for you?
Jonathan Hammond (10:44):
Well, it's really rich, and it's really and
it's really in your face.Because in in shamanic cultures,
and and I would say pretty muchall shamanic cultures, if the
child was thought to be queer,they were immediately put on the
shamanic path. That's what twospirited means. And the the idea
being that that the child holdsboth the the a masculine and a
(11:08):
feminine polarity. And if youthink of the nature of the
divine, that is the all.
And so so the queer person wasconsidered actually closer to
the all. Also, because the queerperson was not going to follow
the conventionality of a familyand a wife and a and all of
that, it was that they were theywere a little bit peripheral to
(11:32):
to the those conventional roles,which which gave them the the
the license to attune to abigger perspective than what is
in those conventional roles. Sothe people in the conventional
roles went to them to actuallylearn about consciousness. So it
(11:53):
is very rich. In the in theHawaiian tradition, they're
called mahus.
And but two spirited people areare and and that's even why when
you think of queer people now,they're channelers. You know?
They're they're the people thatwrite West Side Story. They're
the people that tell us what towear. They're the people that
you know, they're the people whoare who are attuned to the
(12:14):
collective culturalconsciousness and and have
answers that are outside thatare outside conventional roles.
So so and that's why you see somany queer people in clergy, in
as healers, as, certainly, as asshamans. So that's just very
much very much a a thing. It'sonly been since, you know, since
(12:38):
Christianity that that that thatqueer person as synonymous with
holy person became somethingother than what it truly is. And
I and just to say that one ofthe reasons why I think
everyone's going after transright now is because the because
(13:00):
they are they are they are thebeings with the answers. They
are the beings they are thebeings who are we we live in a
in a right now in a very binaryculture.
Good, bad, black, white, us,them, Democrat, Republican. And
and here are all these people,nonbinary trans, who are saying,
I do not fit in that system thatis dying and that and that is
(13:23):
dying to itself and that is selfcannibalizing. I don't fit in
that by virtue of what I am, andthey can't stand it. They can't
stand that there are thesebeings who've incarnated to
usher in a new new way of beingand and a new consciousness. And
whether or straight or gay,however you identify, we all are
a little bit of all.
(13:44):
And I think and I think that'ssuch a threat. So so, yeah,
shamanism and queer are arevery, very connected.
Timothy Bish (13:51):
We all are a little bit of all. I was gonna
ask you, does does two spiritness exist on a spectrum?
Because we're talking aboutqueer people, but and and I'm
wondering I have to imagine somepeople that are queer have
greater or lesser access to itfor what any number of reasons
but I wanna hear from you ifthat's am I right about that?
Jonathan Hammond (14:11):
They so you know, I mean, I've never done
this but you know how people goInstagram and they look at
shirtless selfies, you know, andthe guy's looking very pleased
with himself? What's he actuallydoing right now? He's actually
he might have the the most machobody in the world. He's actually
in his feminine. He's beingseen.
The light of attention is beingshined on him. So, like like,
even if you went with the mostheterosexual version of that,
(14:34):
yes, of course, there's thereare masculine and feminine
polarities. This can go intosexual activity, but it it it
need not. It's just a matter of,am I shining my light of
attention on you? In which case,I'm in my masculine.
You know? Or is are you shiningyour light of attention on me?
In which case, I'm in myfeminine. It it it goes back and
forth. So we all have that.
(14:55):
And Jung talked about the animusand the anima, which are two the
two versions of or the twoaspects of self, one masculine,
one feminine. Traditionally,those are things like, you know,
aggression or directionality.Those tend to be masculine and
nurturance or compassion. Thosetend to be feminine. A little
stereotypical, but, you know,you get the idea.
(15:15):
But, yes, we're we're we'reeverything. When we get too
reductive about anything, we getaway from the truth. When
Eric Bomyea (15:25):
we get too reductive about anything, we get
away from the truth. And I lovethinking about that. I love
thinking about something yousaid previously about one of the
purposes of shamanism is toremove the obscurities so that
we can better see ourselves. SoI'm curious now about some of
these personal beliefs thatsometimes people hold. You
(15:47):
talked about that Instagramexample, right?
Like I'm sure that model hasvery specific personal beliefs.
Probably not considering thatthey're in their feminine at
that point, right? But that issomething that we could say. So
I'm just curious about howimportant are our personal
beliefs in creating our realityand in helping us to remove some
of those obscurities?
Jonathan Hammond (16:07):
Well, beliefs are beliefs are everything.
Beliefs are there there'sthere's not one there's not a
single reality. There's a singleconsciousness, but there's not a
single reality. And our beliefsenter us into different
realities. And in differentrealities, different rules exist
in those realities.
So for instance, if I have areal if I if I believe that the
(16:30):
forest will speak to me and giveme a message about some question
that I have on my heart when Itake a walk in the forest,
either through a symbol or amessage on the wind or through
the way in which the the tree isis is rustling in some way or in
some way, if I if I enter into areality where the forest is is
communicative, that forest willstart talking because I'm in
(16:55):
that reality. If I I am not inthat reality, it's a walk in the
forest. And so so we're we'realways inside other realities. I
had to enter a reality where Iwhere I can now live on Maui.
You know?
And as I was in the process ofentering that reality, there are
all kinds of YouTube videos thatsay living on Maui is impossible
(17:15):
and too expensive and it's andall that. And I didn't watch
those because I wanted to createa belief in me that was about
that was congruent with myliving on Maui. So beliefs are
beliefs are everything. And andthe problem is that that our
beliefs are a lot of timeshanded to us by the culture, by
(17:38):
the family culture, by theculture culture, by by school,
by by whatever. And they are notnecessarily the beliefs that are
actually gonna get us where wewanna go.
And so that's always somethingthat we have to, in healing
work, examine. What am Ibelieving about myself? What am
I believing about the world? Andand, also, what is a firmly
(18:01):
ingrained belief will manifestin the outside world. So we all
have a belief that green lightmeans go.
That is in there, lodged in theunconscious, green light means
go. And the outside worldreflects green light means go.
There is a belief inside me thatI am a spiritual teacher. It is
an ingrained belief, and I havea lot of evidence to prove it.
The outside world reflects backthat Jonathan's a spiritual
(18:22):
teacher.
So what we are and we have towork on our beliefs if we if we
don't believe them yet. That'spart of it. That's a that's part
of the healing process. It'spart of a manifestation process.
But but the idea of of even theidea of I have an imagined
belief.
I don't believe it yet, but Ihave an imagined belief of where
I wanna go. And I give clout andlegitimacy and attention and
(18:47):
focus to my imagined belief sothat I can get my unconscious
mind to buy the idea that thisis something that I want to
actually make real. And over aperiod of time, the more that we
do that and the more that westay in the process of creating
a new belief, when that takeshold, it will manifest in the
outside world. That's that's theessence of magic.
Timothy Bish (19:09):
So what I'm hearing is the world is what we
think it is.
Jonathan Hammond (19:14):
The world is what we think it is. Yeah.
Timothy Bish (19:16):
Yeah. So What what a segue. Right? Like right. And
I full disclosure for ourlisteners, I have read
Jonathan's book, The Shaman'sMind.
It has had a very big impact onme and the way that I practice
and the way that I facilitateand the way that I see the world
or the way and and what you weretalking about, the way that I
practice approaching my life andthe world. So some of these
(19:40):
beliefs that I'm trying tochange, I'm still practicing
back Sure. Through journaling oraffirmations or any number of
things. So am I right in sayingthat that is one of the seven
principles?
Jonathan Hammond (19:51):
Yeah. That's the first principle of. It comes
from a Hawaiian word called ike,and the the esoteric translation
is the world is or the worldbecomes or reality becomes what
we think it what what we thinkit is. And so that means you've
heard as within, so without, asbelow, so above, the idea being
that what is what is inside ofus, what is our inner world is
(20:15):
just an inward dream, and theoutward dream is a reflection of
our inward dream. So an easy wayto think of it, like, from dream
interpretation is that, like,you know, if you have a dream,
the easiest way to think ofdream interpretation is that
whatever's happening in thedream, whatever characters,
whatever whatever symbols,whatever that everything in that
dream is is reflective ofsomething about the dreamer.
(20:39):
And so the idea being that ourour waking dream, our lives,
whatever's in there, the good,bad, and the ugly, is reflective
of the inward dream that createdit out of which it came. So
that's what the so the world iswhat the the world becomes, what
I what what it is what I holdinwardly. And that's why it's
(21:01):
really important to payattention to what you're paying
attention to because because,essentially, whatever it is that
you're whatever it is thatyou're creating inwardly will,
over time, manifest in theoutside world and to pay
attention to what's going on inthe outside world. And if
there's something in the outsideworld that you don't like,
there's something in you thatsays that thing that you don't
like is okay.
Timothy Bish (21:21):
So and and part of that practice, you know, you
mentioned identifying limitingbeliefs and affirmations and
things like that, but it alsosounds like being mindful about
what you consume visually,mentally, not just not just what
we eat, but what what images amI allowing myself to see? What
movies will I watch? You know,things like that. Is that part
(21:44):
of creating creating the innerstory from which we wanna birth
our outer experience?
Jonathan Hammond (21:50):
Absolutely. I mean, it it but I'm not I'm not
gonna lend my attention tosomething that is fortifying a
belief that I'm trying to getrid of. You know? It's just like
like, even when we get allreactive to the clickbait
politically, you know, we getall reactive and all that.
What's actually happening?
I'm reactive to it because I'm aloving person, and I care about
things, and I care about theplanet. Well, that means that
(22:12):
the clickbait is getting mylove. And I don't want the
clickbait to get my love, and soI turn it off. You know, I turn
it off, and I focus on creatingthe world that I want. And and
so that's going on, but but I'mdoing whatever I can to not
participate in it and to get itsstench off me as much as I
possibly can.
(22:33):
So I don't go into I you know, Idon't I don't follow every
outrage. I know what they arebecause they're in the
consciousness and we you know?Because that's not the world
that I'm creating. Don't ask mewhy I know this. I just do.
I I really believe that at thistime on the planet, if you think
of the planet as growing its ownconsciousness, and if you think
(22:55):
of, like, the first threebillion years on the planet,
this was not a cute place tolive. This was a place of
sulfuric gases and, you know,uninhabitable. And so the planet
has been evolving toward lifefor billions of years where
there is life, where there isconsciousness, which means that
the planet's consciousness hasbeen evolving too. And I believe
that we are in a place where theplanet's consciousness does not
(23:18):
really want to hold things likeracism and homophobia anymore.
Like, it's these these are deadenergies.
They're they're at one point,they were maybe useful as the
planet was understanding itself,but I really feel like we're in
a place where the the planet isnot interested in holding those
energies. They're no they're nolonger evolutionarily beneficial
for it. We've done that.
Eric Bomyea (23:40):
They don't produce a cute place to live.
Jonathan Hammond (23:42):
They don't produce a cute place to live. So
I just kinda I I and so I justfeel like they're alive in the
people that have a vestedfinancial interest in keeping
them alive, but I do not thinkthat they are actual energies
that the planet is reallyinterested in anymore. I think
the planet is continuing toevolve. And I think when we talk
in the spiritual circles about,you know, the new consciousness
(24:03):
or even the new Earth, you know,we're talking about stepping
away from something that is notlife affirming. And if we know
anything about the Earth, isthat it it is relentless in its
pursuance of life andrelentlessly not interested in
that which isn't.
And so we that's that's thethat's the direction that the
(24:25):
planet is always going. So thisstuff is this this stuff is
kinda dying out. Even though itseems like it's in power, it's
dying out.
Eric Bomyea (24:32):
So this is a new concept for me. This this idea
that, like, the planet, theEarth has its own, like,
consciousness. And so I thinknow if I'm I'm I'm just gonna,
use my my words and, like, kindof put some pieces together. So
could that potentially what wemean by saying the planet has a
spirit? Sure.
(24:53):
Right? And then we have spirits.There are other things in this
world that have spirits. And so,like, how is all of that kind of
connected and kind of, like,interwoven together?
Jonathan Hammond (25:05):
Alright. We're going very cosmological. But
okay. But if if you think aboutit this way, so you have a
consciousness, and you are anearth being. You were born out
of the earth.
You are made of the samebiological and physiological
material of the earth. There isno way that that which birthed
you has something different thanthan what you have. And so and
(25:29):
so you are just an individualaperture through which that
consciousness reveals itself,but that consciousness is always
in place. Another way to thinkof it is that the Earth is kind
of a single body, and there'ssomething called the the the
Gaia theory. A NASA scientistfrom 1979 came up with this idea
(25:50):
that the Earth behaves like asingle self regulating system
like the human body.
And that everything on theearth, every being on earth,
every microbe on earth, everyhuman on earth is is essentially
a a cell or an atom of that onesingle body. And and so that so
(26:10):
so it's that. It's that we'rewe're connected to an individual
consciousness that is connectedto the big consciousness. And
but they all but they all comefrom the same place. In terms of
spirit, so, if you think of thethe dandelion underneath has the
instructions to be thedandelion, and it grows into
being dandelion.
(26:31):
And then the outer worldprovides it with sunlight and
air and, and the conditions fordandelion to happen. So the so
it's kind of like there's thethe dandelion, the underlying
instructions of the dandelion,and the angel hovering over the
dandelion saying, let me giveyou what you need to grow. And
(26:52):
so that's our spirit. That's ourspirit. So so when we are taking
actions toward growth, thespirits are the spirits are all
over that because that's whatthey're there for.
That's what they're there for toto to help to help us get where
it is that we're going. So andthe and the the instinctive
(27:13):
impulse to grow is is somethingdeep within us. So there's
something deep within us andsomething outside of us that
align and and create us.
Timothy Bish (27:25):
The Gaia theory has always had such a big impact
on my life, and it it's thething that I think about in any
number of ways when I thinkabout taking too much, like like
destroying a an environment ofsome sort for resources and just
sort of devastating it because Ithink, oh, it's a little bit
like scratching my own body,like ripping off a scab, like
(27:48):
doing creating damage in me. Andso for me, I've always been
programmed to think of it as anorganism and where balance is
needed. I'm gonna just digress,though, because there is the
Captain Planet and thePlaneteers, which I think I have
talked about one other time onpodcast. I don't remember. It it
(28:09):
you know, it had five five kids,children, I guess teenagers, one
from each continent.
They each had a power. Earth,fire, wind, water, and heart.
And then Gaia was this magicalsort of, like like, angelic
woman who was there helping andguiding. And two things about
that that I think were soimportant is they they created
(28:30):
an image of the spirit of theearth that was talking to these
characters and expressing theseneeds. Thing number two was that
one of the powers in order forthe five to combine to make
Captain Planet, this ecologicalsuperhero, was heart.
Yeah. I didn't like, I look backon it now and think, oh, I was
(28:51):
getting I was getting a teachingthrough this through this
cartoon and and a beautiful one,really. A beautiful one. And one
of the abilities that heart hadwas that he could communicate
with animals. I rememberthinking, until that episode, I
was like, I wonder what Hartdoes.
They didn't know, he wasn't likea big player in it. And then I
was like, oh, that. And it feelslike this spirit connectedness.
Jonathan Hammond (29:14):
Yeah. Well, you you just said something very
indigenous mind, Tim. And thatis, you know, the Native
Americans have this idea of thelong body. And the long body is
essentially that the that theearth that the earth itself is
an extension of one's own body.And so that means that
ecological flourishing is selfflourishing, and ecological
(29:34):
preservation is selfpreservation.
And and so there and so it'sthis idea of of everything as an
extension of self. And that isthe the ecotherapist call that
the ecological self, meaningmeaning that that I'm I'm
connected to the all as one, youknow, that that it is a part of
me. So that's a that's a reallyrich idea, and and in it is a
(30:01):
one adopted it and by the way,it's also the the ecological
self or the long body would besynonymous with Christ
consciousness, you know, thatunitive consciousness of love
with all, Buddha consciousness,that unitive consciousness of
love with all. It's just anotherit's just another it's more of
an indigenous way in. But, yeah,that's the idea that that that
(30:22):
everything is a part of us.
When we think of nature, natureis not a background for our
human drama. Nature is is we arein in a a lived relationship
with it. We've forgotten thatbecause we we don't rely on
nature. We don't think we do. Wedon't rely on nature in the same
way that that indigenouscultures did.
(30:44):
But when you don't know whereyour next meal is coming from or
where the weather really is amatter of life and death, You
are working in conversation withyour environment. And and that's
what we've gotten so far awayfrom. And and that's why that's
why and that's why the planet issick, you know, is because we
think of it as this sort of deadthing that isn't just a
(31:05):
storehouse of resources for us.And and that's the part that
that that really that we reallyhave to change. It doesn't mean
that we all have to wear grassskirts and and, you know, and
live in log cabins and go offgrid and all of that.
I think that there technology ishere for a reason, But I think
but we do need to return to areenchantment with the natural
(31:27):
world and and a a different kindof relationship with the natural
world as us.
Eric Bomyea (31:34):
I can imagine that if my reality is not that I have
such a deep reliance or aperceived reliance on the earth,
it is really challenging toimagine it as its own being and
as something that is anextension of myself and
something that I should bringlove and care and attention to.
I can imagine that being verychallenging because I've been in
(31:54):
that. There are times that I amin that because I live in the
little bubble that is my life.It is sometimes really
challenging to see outside ofthat, to be like, oh, that
package that I got on Amazon,like, the consequences that that
has. Right?
Like, the environmentalconsequences that that whole
life cycle could have. BecauseI'm not considering, right,
(32:16):
something bigger than myself.I'm not considering the planet
as a being. And so but the thethe interesting thing about
Captain America in that example
Timothy Bish (32:26):
is it gives Captain Planet. Yeah. Captain
Planet. Captain Captain Americais also excellent, but very
different.
Eric Bomyea (32:31):
Captain Planet is that it helps by giving a visual
to it. It helps spark myimagination. Right? It helps
make it a little bit more real.So I'm curious now how the power
of imagination plays into all ofthis work.
Jonathan Hammond (32:44):
Well, if you think of, I mean, imagination is
the bridge to everything.Imagination is the bridge
imagination is the bridge to theforce that gives you the
message. Imagination is thebridge to the idea that that
spirits are around me, and Iwanna connect with them.
Imagination is imagination isthe key to I wanna become a
successful podcaster, but I'mnot right now. You know?
(33:06):
And so I imagine that intobeing. So it's it's really
important. When you think ofthese big ideas like unitive
consciousness or the illusion ofseparation, you know, we can't
understand that with our withour our mind. We can maybe if
we're lucky enough to have anondual experience and and touch
it for two minutes and know thatit's there. But but imagination
(33:28):
is really about taking some ofthese these esoteric truths and
going, what if there is oneconsciousness of which I'm a
part?
What if I am I am a single atomin a in a single organism? And
that if I were, that means thatI would want my atom or my cell
(33:52):
to be the most healthy that itcan possibly be. You know, the
the most glowing with withhealth and life that it can
possibly be. So so these kind ofso imagination is is really it
it's really the key toeverything. And I think that
we're we're a little cynical.
I think that we're we're alittle cynical, I think, because
the Western materialist model,which is not the whole story,
(34:16):
and I I I don't care what theysay. It is not the whole story.
But that model reduces it'sreductive. It reduces
everything, and it lee it doesnot leave room for for myth, for
imagination, for for theunknown, for for so many things.
And and and that's the reasonwhy it's not that's the reason
why it it's not a it the theoriginal peoples did not just
(34:41):
rely on it because it it itdoesn't it doesn't tell the the
whole story.
When when there are times whenwe make a choice based on a
knowing with no empirical dataand it turns out that we're
right. What is that process? Itcan't be measured. It can't be
explained. It it it can't bereduced to some process.
(35:04):
It's just a knowing. And that isa sophisticated framework to to
to include in how we live ourlives, an important one.
Timothy Bish (35:18):
So right now we're having this conversation amongst
three people who are we we allsort of swim in this material
and and really love it. And I'mjust imagining for someone
listening, right now we are in anew administration. Our queer
community is under attack.Rights are being lost and
(35:40):
lawsuits are being filed and allnumber of things are happening.
A lot of possible challenge isahead of us.
And I guess my question is howcan shamanism or shamanic
practice or maybe specificallyHunas shamanism and Hunas
(36:01):
shamanic practice or anythingelse? How can we utilize this as
a tool in this moment to help usnavigate it in a healthy way
both individually and as acommunity? What what what can
shamanism do for us? How can wecollaborate with it?
Jonathan Hammond (36:19):
So there's a there's a Mayan prophecy, which
you probably heard of, the 2012prophecy. And the idea behind
the the 2012 prophecy was aboutthat in 2012, it would be the
end of a twenty six thousandyear cycle where, the beginning
of two earths would would wouldform. Now they didn't just mean
(36:40):
two separate earths. It's ametaphor. But, but it meant two
distinctly differentconsciousnesses that were so
different.
They were almost like twoplanets. And from 2012 onward,
there would be this split, thissplit, this split away from away
from each other. And so and soif if we can attune to and
(37:05):
create the one and and focus onthe one that we want to create
because the the the old one isthe old one is dying out. The
old one the old one is is isloaded with shadow, and it's
acting out its shadow. And whenyou act out your shadow, you are
actually curating unconsciouslyyour own demise.
(37:29):
That is happening. It might nothappen in our lifetimes.
Probably will. You know?Although I do think this
administration, I think we wewill see its demise, I think,
relatively soon.
But but that is not that is notlasting. It's not gonna it's not
gonna hold, but there is thisnew way. And so it's about it's
about that we have to have tobecause everyone and everyone's
(37:51):
there's this mass exodus fromthat reality. It's now been
exposed in its grotesqueness.And so there's this mass exodus
away from it and the sense ofI've been relying on this thing
that hates me, and I've beenrelying on this thing that just
wants me to send my money up,you know, and all that.
And so so a lot of people aredoing whatever they can to leave
it. And the new Earth, it doeshave less to grab onto because
(38:16):
it's new. But the idea is isthat I'm that I we all have to
enlist our creativity right now,you know, to to create something
else. And then when we do that,and certainly us as light
workers or as us as as spiritualthought leaders, as we do that,
we give other people who wannaleave that something to emulate.
(38:39):
And so it's that.
Now this goes beyond laws. Thisgoes beyond, you know, the the
being in the muck of policy andall of that. You know? All of
which is important. All of whichis important.
But in terms of consciousness,it's about I'm gonna focus on
what I want and not what I don'twant. I'm gonna focus on what I
prefer and not what I don'tprefer. And I'm and and that
(39:00):
gets my love. That gets mycreativity. That gets my that
gets my energy.
That gets my juice.
Timothy Bish (39:05):
It sounds like you're also talking about a
practice of creativity. And Iknow because I know you well
enough that doesn't have to be apainting or a song or a dance,
but but it does feel like afoundational component to what
you're discussing, which is wewe sounds like we have to find
our version or our versions ofhow we are creative and and
(39:28):
birth that into the world aspart of this process. Am I
hearing you right?
Jonathan Hammond (39:32):
Right. That's right. And even and it it's
really as simple as if you thinkof that side so humans can
create toxic realities. Theyhave the they they can do that.
But the spirits, the the, thespirits that hover around the
planet and are ecstatic to help,they are not invested in toxic
(39:57):
realities.
That's not what they're therefor, which is the reason why
that thing feels so godless andso devoid of spirit. So when you
talk about creating somethingnew that is for the collective,
where I lend my heart, myspirit, my my my juice, you
know, for for something that islife affirming and growthful and
loving, That that is thespiritual path because that's
(40:21):
what the spirits support us in.And so what we have to buy the
idea that that that that our ownour own yearning toward life is
a spiritually aligned one. Mhmm.And because that's because
that's what they're that's whatthat's what they're there for.
That's how that's why they wouldhelp us to begin with. So, yes,
(40:44):
it it's a practice, and it'sit's really about it's a
discipline. You know? What I'vejust described, focus on what
you want and not what you don'twant. That's called five d
consciousness, which is really ashamanic idea.
It's more of a new age idea. Theidea being that three d is this
world, good, bad, black, white.You know? The three is and the
eye that sees it. That's thethree.
(41:05):
Polarity and the eye that seesit. Four is it exists in time.
Five is I'm outside of it. I seethat. I'm letting it play out.
Go kill yourselves. I'm goingover here.
Eric Bomyea (41:17):
Yeah. The the awareness of that. Right? Like,
I like, the the ability to tokind of pause, see that all of
this is happening, be aware ofit, be in on the joke, right? Be
in on the drama, right?
And then say, okay, I'm gonnazoom out. And I'm going to
(41:39):
choose and now start to, throughmy manifestations, my co
creations, my imaginations,start to do some work on the
reality that I wanna create andbringing in the beliefs that I
wanna see. And start to buildthat out and living my fullest
authenticity, which I heard yousay is potentially the
definition of purpose.
Jonathan Hammond (41:59):
Yeah. And I I do think it's important to say
there are people who are caughtin the crosshairs. There are
people who are not as privilegedas us to even have this
conversation and even entertainthe idea that we would try.
Mhmm. You know?
And so and so I just wanna saythat. But all I can do, all any
of us can do is what we can do,you know, individually. I have
(42:22):
clients who rub elbows withpolicymakers. You know? And and
I have clients who are firmlyensconced in ensconced in
corporate.
You know? And they're going intothe Death Star every day,
dressed as a stormtrooper with,you know, with earth wisdom
flowers underneath the you know?Right. You know, underneath
their so so it's like it's likeit's important to say that too.
(42:44):
If you are lucky enough, if iffor whatever reason your karma
is such that you have a choiceto to choose what you can focus
on and you still have thefreedom to do it, then then you
gotta do it.
Mhmm. You know? Then then yougotta do it. But I also wanna I
(43:05):
wanna and you do it for thepeople that can't. You know?
Because that's that's the themost that we can do. And then,
overall, the pervasive energybecomes such that that that that
they find that we our current isstronger.
Timothy Bish (43:22):
I really love bringing that awareness that
recognizing that we do haveprivilege here to focus on these
ideas and to take these actionsand that there are other people
who are in different situationsand honoring that. Part of what
I feel like I'm hearing you sayis we should all do what we can
to the best of our ability andrecognize that that that amount
(43:45):
that we can do might bedifferent, and it might also
change.
Jonathan Hammond (43:50):
I always say, like, beginning my classes, said
this class is bullshit if thereisn't freedom to practice what
what I'm teaching. This isbullshit. It's just, you know,
it's just masturbatory. Youknow? If there if it's not under
the umbrella of freedom, youknow, and and the and so when
people's freedom or the orbeings beings, animals, or
plants' freedom is mitigated insome way, it it it it changes
(44:14):
things.
So if if we are lucky enough to,you know, to have that to have
that privilege, we we gotta useit.
Timothy Bish (44:22):
So I wanna bring this up. Clearly, we're not
gonna get an opportunity to talkabout each of the seven
principles in this one episode,but I'd like to bring up one
more principle if I remember itcorrectly because it feels like
it's important with regards tothe practice of creativity. But
also, I'd love it in context ofwhat we just said, which is
there are no limits. So can youtalk about, like, how we need to
(44:47):
think about that principle inour practice of creativity, and
simultaneously, how does ithonor what we just described,
which is some people havegreater resource or greater
entitlement or greater privilegethan others?
Jonathan Hammond (45:00):
So, yeah, that's a that's a second
principle. It's a Hawaiian wordcalled kala, and the translation
is there are no limits. Whenwhen my teacher, Serge King,
retranslated these, he wascoming up in the eighties. And
so I think there are no limitshas this kind of Tony Robbins,
like, you can do any you know,like, sort of thing. So I think
(45:20):
I think a better way to think ofit is that there is no
separation, that there is nothat I think that that's, you
know, which is epitomized innature, which is epitomized in
the natural world.
And it is also saying that thatif there is no separation, that
the you that you wanna becomeexists already, not separate
(45:42):
from you. You just have to claimit. And the earth that we want
to create exists, exists next tothe earth that isn't that yet
because there aren't there is noseparation. When you think of,
like, you know, when we call inthe directions, east, west,
south, north, above, and below,what are we doing? We're calling
in everything.
(46:02):
We're calling in everything. Allthe things that we don't know
that we need, you know, we'recalling in the unknown unknowns,
all the things that that coconspire or would co conspire if
we had an intention toward lifeor growth or creation. And so
the idea being that there's noseparation is that I'm not
separate from the very thingsthat will bring me more life.
(46:26):
That's what there are no limitsmeans.
Timothy Bish (46:28):
And that sounds to me like an idea that is
available to everyone. Meaning,when we talked about privilege
and resources, that is a like,we each person can have that
idea and practice with that idearegardless of the circumstances
in which they are living.
Jonathan Hammond (46:45):
This is very spooky, but, like like, you
know, I have I I always burn acouple black candles on my
altar, and the black candlesrepresent to me the unknown
unknowns. Meaning, the dynamicsthat I am not aware of that are
playing out behind the scenesand that are in support of my
life. And I am inviting them inbecause I'm just a little pea
(47:08):
brain that wants what I want,but I have a whole universe at
my disposal to bring me what Iwant. And, and I'm inviting I'm
lighting a candle for all ofthat even though I I don't I
don't know what it is. You knowthat thing of of I I'm really
sure I wanna create something,and you the the thing lands the
(47:29):
the flyer lands on yourwindshield, or you get the
mistaken email, and it's theperson that you were supposed to
meet or, you know, all of that.
That's the unknown unknowns thatthat we attract through our self
love.
Timothy Bish (47:40):
I mean, I have to tell this story, as we've
because, you know, my JeevaMukti yoga teacher training was
a month long away at Omega. Andwith the tuition and room and
board and the books, it costabout I told you the story. It
cost about $10,000, and Isomehow randomly got hired by
Disney to do a gay pride, like,research project that paid me
(48:04):
exactly that amount.
Jonathan Hammond (48:06):
Right.
Timothy Bish (48:06):
I I wasn't really qualified for this. I just did a
bunch of Google searching andcreated a Word document. And I
look back on it now and that wasone of those things. I didn't I
didn't know it was coming, butit was in service to this, you
know. And that yoga training haschanged my life forever.
Jonathan Hammond (48:26):
That's right.
Timothy Bish (48:27):
Is it is like I I wouldn't say it's the absolute
beginning because I've alwaysbelieved dance was my first
spiritual teacher, but it wasthe first declared spiritual
practice into which I wasstepping. Were you lighting a
Eric Bomyea (48:44):
black candle at that time?
Timothy Bish (48:45):
I I wasn't, but I I I wasn't not.
Jonathan Hammond (48:49):
But let me say this. I think I think there's
important thing to to say herethat you're organizing that as a
belief in a synchronicity thatgot you where you wanna go.
Someone else, more cynical ormore materialist, would go, you
got lucky. You know? But and soI think but but your belief
(49:11):
enters you into a enters youinto a co creative a cocreative
relationship with your life,with your purpose, with the
world, with money, and so it's abetter belief.
You know? And so the idea thatyou're you're telling it as
something that is about that isdeepening your own belief in the
(49:33):
unknown unknowns, you know, isis really is really helpful.
It's it's a subtle distinction,but it's an important one.
Timothy Bish (49:38):
But it also feels as if we can then recognize if
someone wants or chooses to becynical, then then that is gonna
be their truth. If someone wantsto believe that that
synchronicities don't exist andthat was, luck, then then that's
so it really then becomes aboutus being mindful about our our
(50:01):
experience and our beliefsbecause a person talking to us
can reflect their their ownexperience, and there's not a
lot I can do about that.
Jonathan Hammond (50:09):
You know, I work with a lot of women in
their thirties from New York.You know? And, of a certain
culture, I won't say which one,but a certain culture, there's
this thing around if you're 35and you have not found the guy
yet, you're in trouble. You'rein trouble and, like and you
probably won't. And so they'reall walking around at thirty
five or thirty six with thisbelief that it's now too late
(50:32):
for me.
That is sending a message to theenergies of the universe that
that's what I have to work with.They're not even looking for it
because it's no longer apossibility. So the spirits
would do something like, I couldstick the guy next to you on
your on the subway, but untilyou have a belief that have your
eyes open to find that guy, Whatit's it's a useless effort, so
(50:57):
I'll just wait until you work onyour belief. Because I I I can't
there there you you're you'reoperating in a framework where
what I would could could bringyou, you're not looking for. You
don't believe you can have.
Timothy Bish (51:10):
It also feels like the the most powerful teaching
any person practicing theseideas can bring is leadership
through example. So rather thanme trying to explain to you why
you should believe somethingdifferent, I should just live my
life with my beliefs and letthat speak for itself.
Jonathan Hammond (51:27):
I love that.
Eric Bomyea (51:29):
Great. And yeah, I mean, like I'm in this chair
because of that. Right? Becausethere is a man next to me that
is doing that, that is livinghis truth. And the impact that
it has, it has brought me tothis chair.
It has brought countless men toour circle, thousands of
listeners now to this podcast.And it really is like a very
(51:53):
real tangible example. And sothank you for living that and
inspiring me to also live inmyself and be with myself
because all of this work is it'sreally challenging. It was
challenging for me to imagine.It was challenging for me to
believe with decades ofcynicism, with a deep mistrust
(52:17):
for myself, for the world.
Right? And it comes down tolike, I've had to do healing.
I've had to heal so much ofmyself and the work continues on
and on and on again. And it isthanks to men like like Tim, our
teacher Amir, people likeyourself that are helping to
lead by example that help me tosee, like, oh, I can too also do
(52:40):
my own healing.
Timothy Bish (52:42):
Well, this is the importance of of men's work or
in yoga sangha community, thissupport system. I would like to
so you thanked me, and and thankyou so much for that
acknowledgment. And I'd like toacknowledge Jonathan as one of
the people in my life who hasgifted me with the ongoing
conversation because I thinkit's important to remember if
(53:04):
you choose to do this, you willneed to be reminded. There will
be moments just like I I alwaysequate it to the gym. Sometimes
you go to the gym and you feelpumped and sexy and strong.
And other days you go to the gymand it just it's like, ugh. It
didn't it didn't quite. But thatday at the gym still needed and,
you know, it was important. Andsometimes having that person
come to the gym with me again.Let's do this that that reminder
(53:26):
that reminder.
So I feel unbelievably grateful.So appreciative, happy, and
grateful for all of the peoplewho have come into my life. I I
believe in synchronicities, so Idon't think it's a coincidence
that Jonathan has been my friendfor two decades and that our
relationship went from BroadwayPerformers to a slow evolution
(53:47):
and this ongoing spiritual conconversation. And the same is
true for every teacher that hasmeant anything to me. It does
not surprise me that AmirKhaligi is in my life right now,
that I met him through a manwhen he gave a talk on Instagram
about the archetypes.
You know, like, was like, oh, Iwanna hear about I forget. I
think it was the warrior theywere talking about, but I'm like
(54:07):
and that's how it started. Sodeep, deep, deep, deep
appreciation and gratitude forall the teachers and all the
reminders and all of thecommunity because it is
important, and it's why we domen's work. It isn't just about
coming into a room so thatbecause we can do it all at the
same time. It's about, oh, sothen I can be seen and held, and
I can see, and I can hear, andwe can support each other on
(54:31):
this journey.
Jonathan Hammond (54:34):
Thank you. Can I tell you a story?
Timothy Bish (54:36):
Please.
Jonathan Hammond (54:37):
I was about 25. I was in Sedona, and I was I
was at the time of my life whereI go to Sedona and sit on the
mountain and cry and not knowwhy I'm there and, you know,
like, just trying to figure outwhat it what what it all means.
And and I had this moment on themountain where I kinda had a
unitive moment where I, like, Iknew that it knew that I knew
that it was there. You know? Itwas like like one of those, like
(54:58):
you know?
And and as I and I was like, I Ifound it. I found something. I
know that it's there. I know thespiritual stuff is real. And I
start walking down the mountain,as I start walking down, I start
getting neurotic.
Because I know that I'm gonna gohome to New York City, and I'm
gonna forget what I learned onthat mountain. So I get to my
hotel room. I call up ahypnotist. I literally look up a
(55:19):
hypnotist with all these healersin Sedona. And I say and and I
say, can I come have a a sessionwith you?
And my intention was that Iwanted her to hypnotize that
experience into my unconsciousmind. So I remembered forever
what I saw on that mountain. SoI go to this woman's house, and
I tell her everything I justtold you. And I say, so I want
you to, you know, I want you todo that. She's sitting across me
(55:40):
listening to me.
She's got a yellow legal pad.And and she starts writing,
like, almost like a picture onit. And I don't you know, and
she's she's not letting me seeit. And she holds it over her
chest, and she says, so whatyou're asking me to do, I can't
do. And she said, you know, thissession is a hundred and $50.
And I said, yeah. Okay. Here's ahundred $50. And she turned over
to LegalPad, and what she'dwritten on the LegalPad in big
(56:02):
lock letters block letters waschoose again. Those two words.
Choose again. And she said,whatever you forget what you
learned on your mountain, youhave to do this. And, like, that
is the reason why it's spiritualpractice. That is the reason why
we have to choose it again. Thatis the reason why we all have a
crisis of faith all the time.
(56:24):
That is why living a spirituallife is about confronting all
the times when we're not livinga spiritual life. That's the
work.
Timothy Bish (56:35):
That I mean but the the thing I love about that
the most is then it takes awaythis idea that to be spiritual
is to always have, like, whiteflowy garments on and, like, the
most gentle breeze so that itlooks you know? And it brings it
to the real world. It's gonna betricky at times. You're gonna
feel lonely at times. You'regonna you're gonna doubt that
(56:56):
it's working at times, and youchoose again, and that's the
practice.
Jonathan Hammond (57:01):
And then And also and if you think of men's
work, men the crux of men's workis the recognition that men have
pain and that I'm not trying tohide it. I'm not trying to I'm
not trying to drink it away. I'mnot trying to fuck it away. I'm
not trying to you know? That Ihave pain.
You know? And it's not that I'mbut without that acknowledgment,
without that and I'm notsupposed to have pain because
(57:22):
I'm a man. Or I'm not supposedto have pain because I'm a sexy
gay man, you know, or whateverelse. But that but because we
pull away from that, and sothat's why it really is about a
kind of courageous honesty, youknow, to say to say, I'm
actually I want this, but I'mblocked to it. That that that I
(57:42):
wanna feel a certain way aboutmy myself, but I can't or
whatever else.
And that acknowledgment is isnot weak. That is the courageous
act that gets you to learnsomething new about yourself.
Eric Bomyea (57:57):
I am a little sponge right now, and I'm just
going to let you all in that mysponginess has absorbed about as
much as it can absorb. I am atcapacity. And I don't know that
because it's been so good. Thishas been such a good
(58:20):
conversation. I am so blessed.
I am so thankful. I am sograteful to have been part of
this and to have learned so muchin such a short bit of time. I
am so ready to choose again myspiritual practices over and
(58:41):
over and over again. So withthat, we covered a lot of ground
today. We introduced ourlisteners to shamanism.
We gave them a little sneak peekof Kuna Shamanism. I think that
it merits a second episode if wecan schedule it to do a deeper
dive into it. We covered
Timothy Bish (59:00):
We got two of the two of the seven principles. So
if there is am I right? Thereare seven, right? Yep. Two of
the seven?
So sounds like we could at somepoint come back and cover the
others. They're all so powerful.Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (59:15):
We covered spirit. We covered two spirit. We
covered collectiveconsciousness. We covered
imagination, magic, the power ofmanifestation. We covered a lot.
Yeah, we did. And so I just haveone final question, Jonathan.
What is the one thing that wecould all do right now to make
(59:37):
the biggest impact on ourselves,on the world?
Jonathan Hammond (59:42):
Feel your feelings. Stop avoiding. Love
yourself and want. Allowyourself to want.
Eric Bomyea (59:55):
Okay to want. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. With that,
I'm feeling very complete, Tim.
I feel complete. Jonathan?
Jonathan Hammond (01:00:06):
Aloha. Good to see you guys.
Eric Bomyea (01:00:09):
Excellent. Tim, will you take us out, please?
Timothy Bish (01:00:10):
I will. Let's close our eyes. Take a deep
inhale through the nose. Gentleexhale through the mouth. And
it's with deep appreciation andgratitude for the shared sacred
space, for any insights,awarenesses, discoveries that
were made.
That as we leave this circle, Iwish everyone listening
(01:00:31):
connection, brotherhood, safety,and love. And with these words,
container is open but notbroken. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go
all in on men's work, embodimentpractice, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. Ifyou haven't already, please be
sure to like, follow, andsubscribe. And of course, if
there's a topic you'd like toknow know more about, please
send us a message. We'd love tohear from you. Today, we're
joined by Jonathan Hammond, aMaui based author, spiritual
teacher, and energy healer.
(00:27):
A trained shamanic practitionerand counselor, Jonathan blends
Hawaiian wisdom, earth basedpsychology, and energy healing
in his work with clients allaround the world. Tim, Jonathan,
are you ready to go all in? I'mready. Aloha. Let's do this
then.
So Jonathan, welcome. I'm soglad you could join us today.
Jonathan Hammond (00:45):
So happy to be here. Thank you for having me,
guys.
Eric Bomyea (00:48):
So you live on Maui now. Correct?
Jonathan Hammond (00:51):
Correct.
Eric Bomyea (00:52):
So I'm curious. How has living on the island and
learning from that landinfluenced your path as a healer
and a teacher?
Jonathan Hammond (00:58):
I I just got much closer to nature. I I was a
shamanic practitioner andcounselor and all that in New
York City for twenty five years.That's how I met Tim. And it was
time to go, and I was one ofthose people who moved my my my
business online during COVID andcame here, and it's it's changed
(01:22):
in that I I feel very connectedto to nature now. I feel and I
you know, it's one thing to bein consciousness work.
It's another thing to tune intothat vast sky that I see every
day and, and the vast ocean thatI see every day and the whales
breaching that you can see fromyour car, and, all of that.
(01:43):
Headswing with the turtles as adaily experience and all that.
So it just it opened somethingin me in terms of I'd always
made a correlation betweenmental health and spiritual
attunement with nature, but itit deepened since I've been
here. So that's pretty much it.And, yeah, you know, I wrote a
book on Hawaiian spirituality.
So there was a point where itwas like, gotta kinda be on
(02:05):
brand and and move to the placewhere where where I've moved to
the horse's mouth, so to speak.So that's, that's what I did. So
I have, and I've left once. I'vebeen here four and a half years,
and I have left the island toteach one time. I've not, I've
not even gone to one of theother islands.
I'd like, there's where else areyou gonna go? It's, it's pretty
(02:27):
great.
Eric Bomyea (02:27):
There's a beautiful thing about finding your place
and and being really confidentin that place. So Yes. You you
mentioned your books. You're theauthor of The Shaman's Mind and
The Shaman Within. So for all ofour listeners and myself, I'm
wondering if you could just takeus to the basics.
What does the word shaman meanto you?
Jonathan Hammond (02:45):
The shaman is a is a healer, a healer of
relationships. The relationshipswe have between, ourselves and
others, between others andothers, between others and the
planet, between our mind and ourbody. It's a and the shaman
(03:08):
looks to nature. Nature is iswhat we worship in shamanism and
looks to nature to teach us howto be. Nature nature is a
template toward authenticity,interconnection,
interdependence, toward the thethe legitimacy of diversity,
(03:31):
which, you know, a healthyecosystem is based on a diverse
its its diverseness.
A monocrop will kill the land.So and nature is
unapologetically everything innature is unapologetically,
authentically itself and has nointerest in being something
other than itself, which is verydifferent than our human
culture. So so that's sort of,that's why it's it's my path.
(03:56):
And nature also, you know, inspirituality, we we think a lot
about morality and things likethat and a lot of a lot of,
like, religious wounding and allthat. And shamanism and earth
based spirituality is not somuch about being good.
It's about being true. I thinkthat's a helpful distinction.
Timothy Bish (04:14):
Sorry. So when we think about shamanism, my
understanding is that it is anumbrella term and that there are
so many different shamanicsystems. And and you wrote a
book about the Hawaiian shamanicsystem, but can you speak a
little bit to how shamanism hasat its core an essence even
though it can look and sounddifferent depending on the the
(04:37):
land and the people from whichit is birthed?
Jonathan Hammond (04:40):
Well, it it's it's a very loaded word, and
it's not a word people havecalled me that, but it's not a
word that I particularly wannatake up, and I'm not really the
(05:01):
esoteric translation is one whosees in the dark or one who sees
what others do not wish to see.That's the sort of esoteric,
translation. But it'sessentially the the the natural
healers connected to the land,connected to community,
connected to the naturalmedicines of the land, connected
to the spirit of the land, andand the spirit of their
(05:25):
community. And so so everyculture has a version of it. The
reason why I landed on Hawaiibesides the fact that I'm
obsessed with Hawaii Mhmm.
Was because as a as a shamanicstudent for many years, I was
looking for shamanism is veryyou know, it's about journeying.
It's about other worlds that youcan enter into. It's about
(05:48):
spirit guides, and all thatstuff is beautiful. But I was
really looking for somethingthat would ground my my
understanding psychologically inwhat was going on when we're
practicing shamanism. And thatreally and I found it in the in
the Hawaiian system.
The Hawaiian system is verypsychological, and it's very
philosophical. And and thathelped me kind of ground my my
(06:11):
understanding of shamanism andmy understanding of healing in
something that can bereplicated, in something that
can be taught to others, insomething that is is more in
alignment with, our contemporarypsychological paradigms that we
understand, and that really camefrom, from Hawaii. You wouldn't
think it, but Hawaii is very,the Hawaiian shamanism, has a
(06:33):
very psychological backbone toit. And so that's why, that's
why I sort of landed on it.
Timothy Bish (06:40):
So I'm curious for anyone who's listening who this
may be a new concept. Would youconsider the practices of yoga a
form of shamanism? And if not,like, what is the distinction?
Jonathan Hammond (06:51):
Any indigenous spiritual teaching that is
healing, that grows love, thatbrings people together, that
aligns oneself with oneself, Iwould consider I would consider
shamanic for sure. For sure. So,yeah, that's just that's just
that's just another system. Youknow? There's there's there's
nothing new under the sun.
(07:12):
Mhmm. And at the end of the dayat the end of the day, if you if
you go into any system, any truelegitimate system deeply enough
and with enough dedication, youwill find correlates of the same
truth. You know? So, yeah, I I Iwould I I think it's it's kind
of exactly the same. Not exactlythe same, but but very in
(07:33):
alignment.
And you know this, that so muchof of yoga has to do with
natural elements, sunsalutation, and and that kind of
thing. So, yeah, it's very, veryconnected for
Timothy Bish (07:43):
sure. I've often thought there was, like, an an
enormous amount of crossover inthat Venn diagram, and that's
always been, like, superexciting to
Eric Bomyea (07:49):
me and resonated with me deeply. I love this
concept of anything that alignsoneself to oneself. Right? And
that bringing ourselves back tohome and really working and
looking within first andforemost. And then I'm curious
how that principle then connectsto the direct relationship with
(08:10):
nature and how it is that we canthen cultivate that relationship
with nature.
Jonathan Hammond (08:16):
What needs healing? What needs healing in
all of us? Inauthenticity. Somesome idea or story of ourselves
usually taught to us or adoptedby us through what we've
experienced that is actually nottrue. That is a mistake.
That is contrary to our actualnature. And so healing is about,
if you think of shamanichealing, shamanic healing is
(08:37):
just about removing that whichobscures our nature or bringing
back that which is missing fromour nature. So so in in in our
connection with nature, whatwe're really looking at is an
interdependent world that isalive, that has a spirit, that
is, as I said, unapologeticallyunapologetically authentic to
(09:03):
itself, Spy wants for itself, isvery self interested, and also
at the same time collectivelyinterested, which is a very
separate from our human culture.Our human culture tends to be
tends to be self interested, andthe collective interest is we
cut corners on. And soindigenous mind or the shamanic
(09:27):
mind is one of equal selfinterest and collective
interest.
And so just as just as the treewants for itself and wants to
open itself to the sun and tothe rain and and all that, at
the same time, we're breathingthe tree. So it gives its gift
through its authenticity. And insome way, that is what we're
all, but I think our our ourpurpose on this planet is to
(09:50):
give the gift to the world thatcomes from our authenticity. And
so it's both. So it's it's adeep love of self that that gets
one on the path toward thegiving the gift of self to the
world.
And that's just epitomized innature.
Timothy Bish (10:10):
So I think you just answered this question with
with what you were saying. But,you know, my first primary
spiritual practice is yoga.That's what I have found. Yeah.
And one of the reasons Iresonated so deeply with yoga is
because there was no asterisk bymy name because I was a gay
person or a queer person.
Mhmm. And now, I'm hearing youtalk a lot about the value and
(10:32):
importance of authenticity inshamanism. Can you speak just a
little bit about the shamanicperspective of queerness and and
how that has operated for you?
Jonathan Hammond (10:44):
Well, it's really rich, and it's really and
it's really in your face.Because in in shamanic cultures,
and and I would say pretty muchall shamanic cultures, if the
child was thought to be queer,they were immediately put on the
shamanic path. That's what twospirited means. And the the idea
being that that the child holdsboth the the a masculine and a
(11:08):
feminine polarity. And if youthink of the nature of the
divine, that is the all.
And so so the queer person wasconsidered actually closer to
the all. Also, because the queerperson was not going to follow
the conventionality of a familyand a wife and a and all of
that, it was that they were theywere a little bit peripheral to
(11:32):
to the those conventional roles,which which gave them the the
the license to attune to abigger perspective than what is
in those conventional roles. Sothe people in the conventional
roles went to them to actuallylearn about consciousness. So it
(11:53):
is very rich. In the in theHawaiian tradition, they're
called mahus.
And but two spirited people areare and and that's even why when
you think of queer people now,they're channelers. You know?
They're they're the people thatwrite West Side Story. They're
the people that tell us what towear. They're the people that
you know, they're the people whoare who are attuned to the
(12:14):
collective culturalconsciousness and and have
answers that are outside thatare outside conventional roles.
So so and that's why you see somany queer people in clergy, in
as healers, as, certainly, as asshamans. So that's just very
much very much a a thing. It'sonly been since, you know, since
(12:38):
Christianity that that that thatqueer person as synonymous with
holy person became somethingother than what it truly is. And
I and just to say that one ofthe reasons why I think
everyone's going after transright now is because the because
(13:00):
they are they are they are thebeings with the answers. They
are the beings they are thebeings who are we we live in a
in a right now in a very binaryculture.
Good, bad, black, white, us,them, Democrat, Republican. And
and here are all these people,nonbinary trans, who are saying,
I do not fit in that system thatis dying and that and that is
(13:23):
dying to itself and that is selfcannibalizing. I don't fit in
that by virtue of what I am, andthey can't stand it. They can't
stand that there are thesebeings who've incarnated to
usher in a new new way of beingand and a new consciousness. And
whether or straight or gay,however you identify, we all are
a little bit of all.
(13:44):
And I think and I think that'ssuch a threat. So so, yeah,
shamanism and queer are arevery, very connected.
Timothy Bish (13:51):
We all are a little bit of all. I was gonna
ask you, does does two spiritness exist on a spectrum?
Because we're talking aboutqueer people, but and and I'm
wondering I have to imagine somepeople that are queer have
greater or lesser access to itfor what any number of reasons
but I wanna hear from you ifthat's am I right about that?
Jonathan Hammond (14:11):
They so you know, I mean, I've never done
this but you know how people goInstagram and they look at
shirtless selfies, you know, andthe guy's looking very pleased
with himself? What's he actuallydoing right now? He's actually
he might have the the most machobody in the world. He's actually
in his feminine. He's beingseen.
The light of attention is beingshined on him. So, like like,
even if you went with the mostheterosexual version of that,
(14:34):
yes, of course, there's thereare masculine and feminine
polarities. This can go intosexual activity, but it it it
need not. It's just a matter of,am I shining my light of
attention on you? In which case,I'm in my masculine.
You know? Or is are you shiningyour light of attention on me?
In which case, I'm in myfeminine. It it it goes back and
forth. So we all have that.
(14:55):
And Jung talked about the animusand the anima, which are two the
two versions of or the twoaspects of self, one masculine,
one feminine. Traditionally,those are things like, you know,
aggression or directionality.Those tend to be masculine and
nurturance or compassion. Thosetend to be feminine. A little
stereotypical, but, you know,you get the idea.
(15:15):
But, yes, we're we're we'reeverything. When we get too
reductive about anything, we getaway from the truth. When
Eric Bomyea (15:25):
we get too reductive about anything, we get
away from the truth. And I lovethinking about that. I love
thinking about something yousaid previously about one of the
purposes of shamanism is toremove the obscurities so that
we can better see ourselves. SoI'm curious now about some of
these personal beliefs thatsometimes people hold. You
(15:47):
talked about that Instagramexample, right?
Like I'm sure that model hasvery specific personal beliefs.
Probably not considering thatthey're in their feminine at
that point, right? But that issomething that we could say. So
I'm just curious about howimportant are our personal
beliefs in creating our realityand in helping us to remove some
of those obscurities?
Jonathan Hammond (16:07):
Well, beliefs are beliefs are everything.
Beliefs are there there'sthere's not one there's not a
single reality. There's a singleconsciousness, but there's not a
single reality. And our beliefsenter us into different
realities. And in differentrealities, different rules exist
in those realities.
So for instance, if I have areal if I if I believe that the
(16:30):
forest will speak to me and giveme a message about some question
that I have on my heart when Itake a walk in the forest,
either through a symbol or amessage on the wind or through
the way in which the the tree isis is rustling in some way or in
some way, if I if I enter into areality where the forest is is
communicative, that forest willstart talking because I'm in
(16:55):
that reality. If I I am not inthat reality, it's a walk in the
forest. And so so we're we'realways inside other realities. I
had to enter a reality where Iwhere I can now live on Maui.
You know?
And as I was in the process ofentering that reality, there are
all kinds of YouTube videos thatsay living on Maui is impossible
(17:15):
and too expensive and it's andall that. And I didn't watch
those because I wanted to createa belief in me that was about
that was congruent with myliving on Maui. So beliefs are
beliefs are everything. And andthe problem is that that our
beliefs are a lot of timeshanded to us by the culture, by
(17:38):
the family culture, by theculture culture, by by school,
by by whatever. And they are notnecessarily the beliefs that are
actually gonna get us where wewanna go.
And so that's always somethingthat we have to, in healing
work, examine. What am Ibelieving about myself? What am
I believing about the world? Andand, also, what is a firmly
(18:01):
ingrained belief will manifestin the outside world. So we all
have a belief that green lightmeans go.
That is in there, lodged in theunconscious, green light means
go. And the outside worldreflects green light means go.
There is a belief inside me thatI am a spiritual teacher. It is
an ingrained belief, and I havea lot of evidence to prove it.
The outside world reflects backthat Jonathan's a spiritual
(18:22):
teacher.
So what we are and we have towork on our beliefs if we if we
don't believe them yet. That'spart of it. That's a that's part
of the healing process. It'spart of a manifestation process.
But but the idea of of even theidea of I have an imagined
belief.
I don't believe it yet, but Ihave an imagined belief of where
I wanna go. And I give clout andlegitimacy and attention and
(18:47):
focus to my imagined belief sothat I can get my unconscious
mind to buy the idea that thisis something that I want to
actually make real. And over aperiod of time, the more that we
do that and the more that westay in the process of creating
a new belief, when that takeshold, it will manifest in the
outside world. That's that's theessence of magic.
Timothy Bish (19:09):
So what I'm hearing is the world is what we
think it is.
Jonathan Hammond (19:14):
The world is what we think it is. Yeah.
Timothy Bish (19:16):
Yeah. So What what a segue. Right? Like right. And
I full disclosure for ourlisteners, I have read
Jonathan's book, The Shaman'sMind.
It has had a very big impact onme and the way that I practice
and the way that I facilitateand the way that I see the world
or the way and and what you weretalking about, the way that I
practice approaching my life andthe world. So some of these
(19:40):
beliefs that I'm trying tochange, I'm still practicing
back Sure. Through journaling oraffirmations or any number of
things. So am I right in sayingthat that is one of the seven
principles?
Jonathan Hammond (19:51):
Yeah. That's the first principle of. It comes
from a Hawaiian word called ike,and the the esoteric translation
is the world is or the worldbecomes or reality becomes what
we think it what what we thinkit is. And so that means you've
heard as within, so without, asbelow, so above, the idea being
that what is what is inside ofus, what is our inner world is
(20:15):
just an inward dream, and theoutward dream is a reflection of
our inward dream. So an easy wayto think of it, like, from dream
interpretation is that, like,you know, if you have a dream,
the easiest way to think ofdream interpretation is that
whatever's happening in thedream, whatever characters,
whatever whatever symbols,whatever that everything in that
dream is is reflective ofsomething about the dreamer.
(20:39):
And so the idea being that ourour waking dream, our lives,
whatever's in there, the good,bad, and the ugly, is reflective
of the inward dream that createdit out of which it came. So
that's what the so the world iswhat the the world becomes, what
I what what it is what I holdinwardly. And that's why it's
(21:01):
really important to payattention to what you're paying
attention to because because,essentially, whatever it is that
you're whatever it is thatyou're creating inwardly will,
over time, manifest in theoutside world and to pay
attention to what's going on inthe outside world. And if
there's something in the outsideworld that you don't like,
there's something in you thatsays that thing that you don't
like is okay.
Timothy Bish (21:21):
So and and part of that practice, you know, you
mentioned identifying limitingbeliefs and affirmations and
things like that, but it alsosounds like being mindful about
what you consume visually,mentally, not just not just what
we eat, but what what images amI allowing myself to see? What
movies will I watch? You know,things like that. Is that part
(21:44):
of creating creating the innerstory from which we wanna birth
our outer experience?
Jonathan Hammond (21:50):
Absolutely. I mean, it it but I'm not I'm not
gonna lend my attention tosomething that is fortifying a
belief that I'm trying to getrid of. You know? It's just like
like, even when we get allreactive to the clickbait
politically, you know, we getall reactive and all that.
What's actually happening?
I'm reactive to it because I'm aloving person, and I care about
things, and I care about theplanet. Well, that means that
(22:12):
the clickbait is getting mylove. And I don't want the
clickbait to get my love, and soI turn it off. You know, I turn
it off, and I focus on creatingthe world that I want. And and
so that's going on, but but I'mdoing whatever I can to not
participate in it and to get itsstench off me as much as I
possibly can.
(22:33):
So I don't go into I you know, Idon't I don't follow every
outrage. I know what they arebecause they're in the
consciousness and we you know?Because that's not the world
that I'm creating. Don't ask mewhy I know this. I just do.
I I really believe that at thistime on the planet, if you think
of the planet as growing its ownconsciousness, and if you think
(22:55):
of, like, the first threebillion years on the planet,
this was not a cute place tolive. This was a place of
sulfuric gases and, you know,uninhabitable. And so the planet
has been evolving toward lifefor billions of years where
there is life, where there isconsciousness, which means that
the planet's consciousness hasbeen evolving too. And I believe
that we are in a place where theplanet's consciousness does not
(23:18):
really want to hold things likeracism and homophobia anymore.
Like, it's these these are deadenergies.
They're they're at one point,they were maybe useful as the
planet was understanding itself,but I really feel like we're in
a place where the the planet isnot interested in holding those
energies. They're no they're nolonger evolutionarily beneficial
for it. We've done that.
Eric Bomyea (23:40):
They don't produce a cute place to live.
Jonathan Hammond (23:42):
They don't produce a cute place to live. So
I just kinda I I and so I justfeel like they're alive in the
people that have a vestedfinancial interest in keeping
them alive, but I do not thinkthat they are actual energies
that the planet is reallyinterested in anymore. I think
the planet is continuing toevolve. And I think when we talk
in the spiritual circles about,you know, the new consciousness
(24:03):
or even the new Earth, you know,we're talking about stepping
away from something that is notlife affirming. And if we know
anything about the Earth, isthat it it is relentless in its
pursuance of life andrelentlessly not interested in
that which isn't.
And so we that's that's thethat's the direction that the
(24:25):
planet is always going. So thisstuff is this this stuff is
kinda dying out. Even though itseems like it's in power, it's
dying out.
Eric Bomyea (24:32):
So this is a new concept for me. This this idea
that, like, the planet, theEarth has its own, like,
consciousness. And so I thinknow if I'm I'm I'm just gonna,
use my my words and, like, kindof put some pieces together. So
could that potentially what wemean by saying the planet has a
spirit? Sure.
(24:53):
Right? And then we have spirits.There are other things in this
world that have spirits. And so,like, how is all of that kind of
connected and kind of, like,interwoven together?
Jonathan Hammond (25:05):
Alright. We're going very cosmological. But
okay. But if if you think aboutit this way, so you have a
consciousness, and you are anearth being. You were born out
of the earth.
You are made of the samebiological and physiological
material of the earth. There isno way that that which birthed
you has something different thanthan what you have. And so and
(25:29):
so you are just an individualaperture through which that
consciousness reveals itself,but that consciousness is always
in place. Another way to thinkof it is that the Earth is kind
of a single body, and there'ssomething called the the the
Gaia theory. A NASA scientistfrom 1979 came up with this idea
(25:50):
that the Earth behaves like asingle self regulating system
like the human body.
And that everything on theearth, every being on earth,
every microbe on earth, everyhuman on earth is is essentially
a a cell or an atom of that onesingle body. And and so that so
(26:10):
so it's that. It's that we'rewe're connected to an individual
consciousness that is connectedto the big consciousness. And
but they all but they all comefrom the same place. In terms of
spirit, so, if you think of thethe dandelion underneath has the
instructions to be thedandelion, and it grows into
being dandelion.
(26:31):
And then the outer worldprovides it with sunlight and
air and, and the conditions fordandelion to happen. So the so
it's kind of like there's thethe dandelion, the underlying
instructions of the dandelion,and the angel hovering over the
dandelion saying, let me giveyou what you need to grow. And
(26:52):
so that's our spirit. That's ourspirit. So so when we are taking
actions toward growth, thespirits are the spirits are all
over that because that's whatthey're there for.
That's what they're there for toto to help to help us get where
it is that we're going. So andthe and the the instinctive
(27:13):
impulse to grow is is somethingdeep within us. So there's
something deep within us andsomething outside of us that
align and and create us.
Timothy Bish (27:25):
The Gaia theory has always had such a big impact
on my life, and it it's thething that I think about in any
number of ways when I thinkabout taking too much, like like
destroying a an environment ofsome sort for resources and just
sort of devastating it because Ithink, oh, it's a little bit
like scratching my own body,like ripping off a scab, like
(27:48):
doing creating damage in me. Andso for me, I've always been
programmed to think of it as anorganism and where balance is
needed. I'm gonna just digress,though, because there is the
Captain Planet and thePlaneteers, which I think I have
talked about one other time onpodcast. I don't remember. It it
(28:09):
you know, it had five five kids,children, I guess teenagers, one
from each continent.
They each had a power. Earth,fire, wind, water, and heart.
And then Gaia was this magicalsort of, like like, angelic
woman who was there helping andguiding. And two things about
that that I think were soimportant is they they created
(28:30):
an image of the spirit of theearth that was talking to these
characters and expressing theseneeds. Thing number two was that
one of the powers in order forthe five to combine to make
Captain Planet, this ecologicalsuperhero, was heart.
Yeah. I didn't like, I look backon it now and think, oh, I was
(28:51):
getting I was getting a teachingthrough this through this
cartoon and and a beautiful one,really. A beautiful one. And one
of the abilities that heart hadwas that he could communicate
with animals. I rememberthinking, until that episode, I
was like, I wonder what Hartdoes.
They didn't know, he wasn't likea big player in it. And then I
was like, oh, that. And it feelslike this spirit connectedness.
Jonathan Hammond (29:14):
Yeah. Well, you you just said something very
indigenous mind, Tim. And thatis, you know, the Native
Americans have this idea of thelong body. And the long body is
essentially that the that theearth that the earth itself is
an extension of one's own body.And so that means that
ecological flourishing is selfflourishing, and ecological
(29:34):
preservation is selfpreservation.
And and so there and so it'sthis idea of of everything as an
extension of self. And that isthe the ecotherapist call that
the ecological self, meaningmeaning that that I'm I'm
connected to the all as one, youknow, that that it is a part of
me. So that's a that's a reallyrich idea, and and in it is a
(30:01):
one adopted it and by the way,it's also the the ecological
self or the long body would besynonymous with Christ
consciousness, you know, thatunitive consciousness of love
with all, Buddha consciousness,that unitive consciousness of
love with all. It's just anotherit's just another it's more of
an indigenous way in. But, yeah,that's the idea that that that
(30:22):
everything is a part of us.
When we think of nature, natureis not a background for our
human drama. Nature is is we arein in a a lived relationship
with it. We've forgotten thatbecause we we don't rely on
nature. We don't think we do. Wedon't rely on nature in the same
way that that indigenouscultures did.
(30:44):
But when you don't know whereyour next meal is coming from or
where the weather really is amatter of life and death, You
are working in conversation withyour environment. And and that's
what we've gotten so far awayfrom. And and that's why that's
why and that's why the planet issick, you know, is because we
think of it as this sort of deadthing that isn't just a
(31:05):
storehouse of resources for us.And and that's the part that
that that really that we reallyhave to change. It doesn't mean
that we all have to wear grassskirts and and, you know, and
live in log cabins and go offgrid and all of that.
I think that there technology ishere for a reason, But I think
but we do need to return to areenchantment with the natural
(31:27):
world and and a a different kindof relationship with the natural
world as us.
Eric Bomyea (31:34):
I can imagine that if my reality is not that I have
such a deep reliance or aperceived reliance on the earth,
it is really challenging toimagine it as its own being and
as something that is anextension of myself and
something that I should bringlove and care and attention to.
I can imagine that being verychallenging because I've been in
(31:54):
that. There are times that I amin that because I live in the
little bubble that is my life.It is sometimes really
challenging to see outside ofthat, to be like, oh, that
package that I got on Amazon,like, the consequences that that
has. Right?
Like, the environmentalconsequences that that whole
life cycle could have. BecauseI'm not considering, right,
(32:16):
something bigger than myself.I'm not considering the planet
as a being. And so but the thethe interesting thing about
Captain America in that example
Timothy Bish (32:26):
is it gives Captain Planet. Yeah. Captain
Planet. Captain Captain Americais also excellent, but very
different.
Eric Bomyea (32:31):
Captain Planet is that it helps by giving a visual
to it. It helps spark myimagination. Right? It helps
make it a little bit more real.So I'm curious now how the power
of imagination plays into all ofthis work.
Jonathan Hammond (32:44):
Well, if you think of, I mean, imagination is
the bridge to everything.Imagination is the bridge
imagination is the bridge to theforce that gives you the
message. Imagination is thebridge to the idea that that
spirits are around me, and Iwanna connect with them.
Imagination is imagination isthe key to I wanna become a
successful podcaster, but I'mnot right now. You know?
(33:06):
And so I imagine that intobeing. So it's it's really
important. When you think ofthese big ideas like unitive
consciousness or the illusion ofseparation, you know, we can't
understand that with our withour our mind. We can maybe if
we're lucky enough to have anondual experience and and touch
it for two minutes and know thatit's there. But but imagination
(33:28):
is really about taking some ofthese these esoteric truths and
going, what if there is oneconsciousness of which I'm a
part?
What if I am I am a single atomin a in a single organism? And
that if I were, that means thatI would want my atom or my cell
(33:52):
to be the most healthy that itcan possibly be. You know, the
the most glowing with withhealth and life that it can
possibly be. So so these kind ofso imagination is is really it
it's really the key toeverything. And I think that
we're we're a little cynical.
I think that we're we're alittle cynical, I think, because
the Western materialist model,which is not the whole story,
(34:16):
and I I I don't care what theysay. It is not the whole story.
But that model reduces it'sreductive. It reduces
everything, and it lee it doesnot leave room for for myth, for
imagination, for for theunknown, for for so many things.
And and and that's the reasonwhy it's not that's the reason
why it it's not a it the theoriginal peoples did not just
(34:41):
rely on it because it it itdoesn't it doesn't tell the the
whole story.
When when there are times whenwe make a choice based on a
knowing with no empirical dataand it turns out that we're
right. What is that process? Itcan't be measured. It can't be
explained. It it it can't bereduced to some process.
(35:04):
It's just a knowing. And that isa sophisticated framework to to
to include in how we live ourlives, an important one.
Timothy Bish (35:18):
So right now we're having this conversation amongst
three people who are we we allsort of swim in this material
and and really love it. And I'mjust imagining for someone
listening, right now we are in anew administration. Our queer
community is under attack.Rights are being lost and
(35:40):
lawsuits are being filed and allnumber of things are happening.
A lot of possible challenge isahead of us.
And I guess my question is howcan shamanism or shamanic
practice or maybe specificallyHunas shamanism and Hunas
(36:01):
shamanic practice or anythingelse? How can we utilize this as
a tool in this moment to help usnavigate it in a healthy way
both individually and as acommunity? What what what can
shamanism do for us? How can wecollaborate with it?
Jonathan Hammond (36:19):
So there's a there's a Mayan prophecy, which
you probably heard of, the 2012prophecy. And the idea behind
the the 2012 prophecy was aboutthat in 2012, it would be the
end of a twenty six thousandyear cycle where, the beginning
of two earths would would wouldform. Now they didn't just mean
(36:40):
two separate earths. It's ametaphor. But, but it meant two
distinctly differentconsciousnesses that were so
different.
They were almost like twoplanets. And from 2012 onward,
there would be this split, thissplit, this split away from away
from each other. And so and soif if we can attune to and
(37:05):
create the one and and focus onthe one that we want to create
because the the the old one isthe old one is dying out. The
old one the old one is is isloaded with shadow, and it's
acting out its shadow. And whenyou act out your shadow, you are
actually curating unconsciouslyyour own demise.
(37:29):
That is happening. It might nothappen in our lifetimes.
Probably will. You know?Although I do think this
administration, I think we wewill see its demise, I think,
relatively soon.
But but that is not that is notlasting. It's not gonna it's not
gonna hold, but there is thisnew way. And so it's about it's
about that we have to have tobecause everyone and everyone's
(37:51):
there's this mass exodus fromthat reality. It's now been
exposed in its grotesqueness.And so there's this mass exodus
away from it and the sense ofI've been relying on this thing
that hates me, and I've beenrelying on this thing that just
wants me to send my money up,you know, and all that.
And so so a lot of people aredoing whatever they can to leave
it. And the new Earth, it doeshave less to grab onto because
(38:16):
it's new. But the idea is isthat I'm that I we all have to
enlist our creativity right now,you know, to to create something
else. And then when we do that,and certainly us as light
workers or as us as as spiritualthought leaders, as we do that,
we give other people who wannaleave that something to emulate.
(38:39):
And so it's that.
Now this goes beyond laws. Thisgoes beyond, you know, the the
being in the muck of policy andall of that. You know? All of
which is important. All of whichis important.
But in terms of consciousness,it's about I'm gonna focus on
what I want and not what I don'twant. I'm gonna focus on what I
prefer and not what I don'tprefer. And I'm and and that
(39:00):
gets my love. That gets mycreativity. That gets my that
gets my energy.
That gets my juice.
Timothy Bish (39:05):
It sounds like you're also talking about a
practice of creativity. And Iknow because I know you well
enough that doesn't have to be apainting or a song or a dance,
but but it does feel like afoundational component to what
you're discussing, which is wewe sounds like we have to find
our version or our versions ofhow we are creative and and
(39:28):
birth that into the world aspart of this process. Am I
hearing you right?
Jonathan Hammond (39:32):
Right. That's right. And even and it it's
really as simple as if you thinkof that side so humans can
create toxic realities. Theyhave the they they can do that.
But the spirits, the the, thespirits that hover around the
planet and are ecstatic to help,they are not invested in toxic
(39:57):
realities.
That's not what they're therefor, which is the reason why
that thing feels so godless andso devoid of spirit. So when you
talk about creating somethingnew that is for the collective,
where I lend my heart, myspirit, my my my juice, you
know, for for something that islife affirming and growthful and
loving, That that is thespiritual path because that's
(40:21):
what the spirits support us in.And so what we have to buy the
idea that that that that our ownour own yearning toward life is
a spiritually aligned one. Mhmm.And because that's because
that's what they're that's whatthat's what they're there for.
That's how that's why they wouldhelp us to begin with. So, yes,
(40:44):
it it's a practice, and it'sit's really about it's a
discipline. You know? What I'vejust described, focus on what
you want and not what you don'twant. That's called five d
consciousness, which is really ashamanic idea.
It's more of a new age idea. Theidea being that three d is this
world, good, bad, black, white.You know? The three is and the
eye that sees it. That's thethree.
(41:05):
Polarity and the eye that seesit. Four is it exists in time.
Five is I'm outside of it. I seethat. I'm letting it play out.
Go kill yourselves. I'm goingover here.
Eric Bomyea (41:17):
Yeah. The the awareness of that. Right? Like,
I like, the the ability to tokind of pause, see that all of
this is happening, be aware ofit, be in on the joke, right? Be
in on the drama, right?
And then say, okay, I'm gonnazoom out. And I'm going to
(41:39):
choose and now start to, throughmy manifestations, my co
creations, my imaginations,start to do some work on the
reality that I wanna create andbringing in the beliefs that I
wanna see. And start to buildthat out and living my fullest
authenticity, which I heard yousay is potentially the
definition of purpose.
Jonathan Hammond (41:59):
Yeah. And I I do think it's important to say
there are people who are caughtin the crosshairs. There are
people who are not as privilegedas us to even have this
conversation and even entertainthe idea that we would try.
Mhmm. You know?
And so and so I just wanna saythat. But all I can do, all any
of us can do is what we can do,you know, individually. I have
(42:22):
clients who rub elbows withpolicymakers. You know? And and
I have clients who are firmlyensconced in ensconced in
corporate.
You know? And they're going intothe Death Star every day,
dressed as a stormtrooper with,you know, with earth wisdom
flowers underneath the you know?Right. You know, underneath
their so so it's like it's likeit's important to say that too.
(42:44):
If you are lucky enough, if iffor whatever reason your karma
is such that you have a choiceto to choose what you can focus
on and you still have thefreedom to do it, then then you
gotta do it.
Mhmm. You know? Then then yougotta do it. But I also wanna I
(43:05):
wanna and you do it for thepeople that can't. You know?
Because that's that's the themost that we can do. And then,
overall, the pervasive energybecomes such that that that that
they find that we our current isstronger.
Timothy Bish (43:22):
I really love bringing that awareness that
recognizing that we do haveprivilege here to focus on these
ideas and to take these actionsand that there are other people
who are in different situationsand honoring that. Part of what
I feel like I'm hearing you sayis we should all do what we can
to the best of our ability andrecognize that that that amount
(43:45):
that we can do might bedifferent, and it might also
change.
Jonathan Hammond (43:50):
I always say, like, beginning my classes, said
this class is bullshit if thereisn't freedom to practice what
what I'm teaching. This isbullshit. It's just, you know,
it's just masturbatory. Youknow? If there if it's not under
the umbrella of freedom, youknow, and and the and so when
people's freedom or the orbeings beings, animals, or
plants' freedom is mitigated insome way, it it it it changes
(44:14):
things.
So if if we are lucky enough to,you know, to have that to have
that privilege, we we gotta useit.
Timothy Bish (44:22):
So I wanna bring this up. Clearly, we're not
gonna get an opportunity to talkabout each of the seven
principles in this one episode,but I'd like to bring up one
more principle if I remember itcorrectly because it feels like
it's important with regards tothe practice of creativity. But
also, I'd love it in context ofwhat we just said, which is
there are no limits. So can youtalk about, like, how we need to
(44:47):
think about that principle inour practice of creativity, and
simultaneously, how does ithonor what we just described,
which is some people havegreater resource or greater
entitlement or greater privilegethan others?
Jonathan Hammond (45:00):
So, yeah, that's a that's a second
principle. It's a Hawaiian wordcalled kala, and the translation
is there are no limits. Whenwhen my teacher, Serge King,
retranslated these, he wascoming up in the eighties. And
so I think there are no limitshas this kind of Tony Robbins,
like, you can do any you know,like, sort of thing. So I think
(45:20):
I think a better way to think ofit is that there is no
separation, that there is nothat I think that that's, you
know, which is epitomized innature, which is epitomized in
the natural world.
And it is also saying that thatif there is no separation, that
the you that you wanna becomeexists already, not separate
(45:42):
from you. You just have to claimit. And the earth that we want
to create exists, exists next tothe earth that isn't that yet
because there aren't there is noseparation. When you think of,
like, you know, when we call inthe directions, east, west,
south, north, above, and below,what are we doing? We're calling
in everything.
(46:02):
We're calling in everything. Allthe things that we don't know
that we need, you know, we'recalling in the unknown unknowns,
all the things that that coconspire or would co conspire if
we had an intention toward lifeor growth or creation. And so
the idea being that there's noseparation is that I'm not
separate from the very thingsthat will bring me more life.
(46:26):
That's what there are no limitsmeans.
Timothy Bish (46:28):
And that sounds to me like an idea that is
available to everyone. Meaning,when we talked about privilege
and resources, that is a like,we each person can have that
idea and practice with that idearegardless of the circumstances
in which they are living.
Jonathan Hammond (46:45):
This is very spooky, but, like like, you
know, I have I I always burn acouple black candles on my
altar, and the black candlesrepresent to me the unknown
unknowns. Meaning, the dynamicsthat I am not aware of that are
playing out behind the scenesand that are in support of my
life. And I am inviting them inbecause I'm just a little pea
(47:08):
brain that wants what I want,but I have a whole universe at
my disposal to bring me what Iwant. And, and I'm inviting I'm
lighting a candle for all ofthat even though I I don't I
don't know what it is. You knowthat thing of of I I'm really
sure I wanna create something,and you the the thing lands the
(47:29):
the flyer lands on yourwindshield, or you get the
mistaken email, and it's theperson that you were supposed to
meet or, you know, all of that.
That's the unknown unknowns thatthat we attract through our self
love.
Timothy Bish (47:40):
I mean, I have to tell this story, as we've
because, you know, my JeevaMukti yoga teacher training was
a month long away at Omega. Andwith the tuition and room and
board and the books, it costabout I told you the story. It
cost about $10,000, and Isomehow randomly got hired by
Disney to do a gay pride, like,research project that paid me
(48:04):
exactly that amount.
Jonathan Hammond (48:06):
Right.
Timothy Bish (48:06):
I I wasn't really qualified for this. I just did a
bunch of Google searching andcreated a Word document. And I
look back on it now and that wasone of those things. I didn't I
didn't know it was coming, butit was in service to this, you
know. And that yoga training haschanged my life forever.
Jonathan Hammond (48:26):
That's right.
Timothy Bish (48:27):
Is it is like I I wouldn't say it's the absolute
beginning because I've alwaysbelieved dance was my first
spiritual teacher, but it wasthe first declared spiritual
practice into which I wasstepping. Were you lighting a
Eric Bomyea (48:44):
black candle at that time?
Timothy Bish (48:45):
I I wasn't, but I I I wasn't not.
Jonathan Hammond (48:49):
But let me say this. I think I think there's
important thing to to say herethat you're organizing that as a
belief in a synchronicity thatgot you where you wanna go.
Someone else, more cynical ormore materialist, would go, you
got lucky. You know? But and soI think but but your belief
(49:11):
enters you into a enters youinto a co creative a cocreative
relationship with your life,with your purpose, with the
world, with money, and so it's abetter belief.
You know? And so the idea thatyou're you're telling it as
something that is about that isdeepening your own belief in the
(49:33):
unknown unknowns, you know, isis really is really helpful.
It's it's a subtle distinction,but it's an important one.
Timothy Bish (49:38):
But it also feels as if we can then recognize if
someone wants or chooses to becynical, then then that is gonna
be their truth. If someone wantsto believe that that
synchronicities don't exist andthat was, luck, then then that's
so it really then becomes aboutus being mindful about our our
(50:01):
experience and our beliefsbecause a person talking to us
can reflect their their ownexperience, and there's not a
lot I can do about that.
Jonathan Hammond (50:09):
You know, I work with a lot of women in
their thirties from New York.You know? And, of a certain
culture, I won't say which one,but a certain culture, there's
this thing around if you're 35and you have not found the guy
yet, you're in trouble. You'rein trouble and, like and you
probably won't. And so they'reall walking around at thirty
five or thirty six with thisbelief that it's now too late
(50:32):
for me.
That is sending a message to theenergies of the universe that
that's what I have to work with.They're not even looking for it
because it's no longer apossibility. So the spirits
would do something like, I couldstick the guy next to you on
your on the subway, but untilyou have a belief that have your
eyes open to find that guy, Whatit's it's a useless effort, so
(50:57):
I'll just wait until you work onyour belief. Because I I I can't
there there you you're you'reoperating in a framework where
what I would could could bringyou, you're not looking for. You
don't believe you can have.
Timothy Bish (51:10):
It also feels like the the most powerful teaching
any person practicing theseideas can bring is leadership
through example. So rather thanme trying to explain to you why
you should believe somethingdifferent, I should just live my
life with my beliefs and letthat speak for itself.
Jonathan Hammond (51:27):
I love that.
Eric Bomyea (51:29):
Great. And yeah, I mean, like I'm in this chair
because of that. Right? Becausethere is a man next to me that
is doing that, that is livinghis truth. And the impact that
it has, it has brought me tothis chair.
It has brought countless men toour circle, thousands of
listeners now to this podcast.And it really is like a very
(51:53):
real tangible example. And sothank you for living that and
inspiring me to also live inmyself and be with myself
because all of this work is it'sreally challenging. It was
challenging for me to imagine.It was challenging for me to
believe with decades ofcynicism, with a deep mistrust
(52:17):
for myself, for the world.
Right? And it comes down tolike, I've had to do healing.
I've had to heal so much ofmyself and the work continues on
and on and on again. And it isthanks to men like like Tim, our
teacher Amir, people likeyourself that are helping to
lead by example that help me tosee, like, oh, I can too also do
(52:40):
my own healing.
Timothy Bish (52:42):
Well, this is the importance of of men's work or
in yoga sangha community, thissupport system. I would like to
so you thanked me, and and thankyou so much for that
acknowledgment. And I'd like toacknowledge Jonathan as one of
the people in my life who hasgifted me with the ongoing
conversation because I thinkit's important to remember if
(53:04):
you choose to do this, you willneed to be reminded. There will
be moments just like I I alwaysequate it to the gym. Sometimes
you go to the gym and you feelpumped and sexy and strong.
And other days you go to the gymand it just it's like, ugh. It
didn't it didn't quite. But thatday at the gym still needed and,
you know, it was important. Andsometimes having that person
come to the gym with me again.Let's do this that that reminder
(53:26):
that reminder.
So I feel unbelievably grateful.So appreciative, happy, and
grateful for all of the peoplewho have come into my life. I I
believe in synchronicities, so Idon't think it's a coincidence
that Jonathan has been my friendfor two decades and that our
relationship went from BroadwayPerformers to a slow evolution
(53:47):
and this ongoing spiritual conconversation. And the same is
true for every teacher that hasmeant anything to me. It does
not surprise me that AmirKhaligi is in my life right now,
that I met him through a manwhen he gave a talk on Instagram
about the archetypes.
You know, like, was like, oh, Iwanna hear about I forget. I
think it was the warrior theywere talking about, but I'm like
(54:07):
and that's how it started. Sodeep, deep, deep, deep
appreciation and gratitude forall the teachers and all the
reminders and all of thecommunity because it is
important, and it's why we domen's work. It isn't just about
coming into a room so thatbecause we can do it all at the
same time. It's about, oh, sothen I can be seen and held, and
I can see, and I can hear, andwe can support each other on
(54:31):
this journey.
Jonathan Hammond (54:34):
Thank you. Can I tell you a story?
Timothy Bish (54:36):
Please.
Jonathan Hammond (54:37):
I was about 25. I was in Sedona, and I was I
was at the time of my life whereI go to Sedona and sit on the
mountain and cry and not knowwhy I'm there and, you know,
like, just trying to figure outwhat it what what it all means.
And and I had this moment on themountain where I kinda had a
unitive moment where I, like, Iknew that it knew that I knew
that it was there. You know? Itwas like like one of those, like
(54:58):
you know?
And and as I and I was like, I Ifound it. I found something. I
know that it's there. I know thespiritual stuff is real. And I
start walking down the mountain,as I start walking down, I start
getting neurotic.
Because I know that I'm gonna gohome to New York City, and I'm
gonna forget what I learned onthat mountain. So I get to my
hotel room. I call up ahypnotist. I literally look up a
(55:19):
hypnotist with all these healersin Sedona. And I say and and I
say, can I come have a a sessionwith you?
And my intention was that Iwanted her to hypnotize that
experience into my unconsciousmind. So I remembered forever
what I saw on that mountain. SoI go to this woman's house, and
I tell her everything I justtold you. And I say, so I want
you to, you know, I want you todo that. She's sitting across me
(55:40):
listening to me.
She's got a yellow legal pad.And and she starts writing,
like, almost like a picture onit. And I don't you know, and
she's she's not letting me seeit. And she holds it over her
chest, and she says, so whatyou're asking me to do, I can't
do. And she said, you know, thissession is a hundred and $50.
And I said, yeah. Okay. Here's ahundred $50. And she turned over
to LegalPad, and what she'dwritten on the LegalPad in big
(56:02):
lock letters block letters waschoose again. Those two words.
Choose again. And she said,whatever you forget what you
learned on your mountain, youhave to do this. And, like, that
is the reason why it's spiritualpractice. That is the reason why
we have to choose it again. Thatis the reason why we all have a
crisis of faith all the time.
(56:24):
That is why living a spirituallife is about confronting all
the times when we're not livinga spiritual life. That's the
work.
Timothy Bish (56:35):
That I mean but the the thing I love about that
the most is then it takes awaythis idea that to be spiritual
is to always have, like, whiteflowy garments on and, like, the
most gentle breeze so that itlooks you know? And it brings it
to the real world. It's gonna betricky at times. You're gonna
feel lonely at times. You'regonna you're gonna doubt that
(56:56):
it's working at times, and youchoose again, and that's the
practice.
Jonathan Hammond (57:01):
And then And also and if you think of men's
work, men the crux of men's workis the recognition that men have
pain and that I'm not trying tohide it. I'm not trying to I'm
not trying to drink it away. I'mnot trying to fuck it away. I'm
not trying to you know? That Ihave pain.
You know? And it's not that I'mbut without that acknowledgment,
without that and I'm notsupposed to have pain because
(57:22):
I'm a man. Or I'm not supposedto have pain because I'm a sexy
gay man, you know, or whateverelse. But that but because we
pull away from that, and sothat's why it really is about a
kind of courageous honesty, youknow, to say to say, I'm
actually I want this, but I'mblocked to it. That that that I
(57:42):
wanna feel a certain way aboutmy myself, but I can't or
whatever else.
And that acknowledgment is isnot weak. That is the courageous
act that gets you to learnsomething new about yourself.
Eric Bomyea (57:57):
I am a little sponge right now, and I'm just
going to let you all in that mysponginess has absorbed about as
much as it can absorb. I am atcapacity. And I don't know that
because it's been so good. Thishas been such a good
(58:20):
conversation. I am so blessed.
I am so thankful. I am sograteful to have been part of
this and to have learned so muchin such a short bit of time. I
am so ready to choose again myspiritual practices over and
(58:41):
over and over again. So withthat, we covered a lot of ground
today. We introduced ourlisteners to shamanism.
We gave them a little sneak peekof Kuna Shamanism. I think that
it merits a second episode if wecan schedule it to do a deeper
dive into it. We covered
Timothy Bish (59:00):
We got two of the two of the seven principles. So
if there is am I right? Thereare seven, right? Yep. Two of
the seven?
So sounds like we could at somepoint come back and cover the
others. They're all so powerful.Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (59:15):
We covered spirit. We covered two spirit. We
covered collectiveconsciousness. We covered
imagination, magic, the power ofmanifestation. We covered a lot.
Yeah, we did. And so I just haveone final question, Jonathan.
What is the one thing that wecould all do right now to make
(59:37):
the biggest impact on ourselves,on the world?
Jonathan Hammond (59:42):
Feel your feelings. Stop avoiding. Love
yourself and want. Allowyourself to want.
Eric Bomyea (59:55):
Okay to want. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. With that,
I'm feeling very complete, Tim.
I feel complete. Jonathan?
Jonathan Hammond (01:00:06):
Aloha. Good to see you guys.
Eric Bomyea (01:00:09):
Excellent. Tim, will you take us out, please?
Timothy Bish (01:00:10):
I will. Let's close our eyes. Take a deep
inhale through the nose. Gentleexhale through the mouth. And
it's with deep appreciation andgratitude for the shared sacred
space, for any insights,awarenesses, discoveries that
were made.
That as we leave this circle, Iwish everyone listening
(01:00:31):
connection, brotherhood, safety,and love. And with these words,
container is open but notbroken. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
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