May 1, 2025 • 56 mins
Ever found yourself snapping in traffic or spiraling over something small? In this episode of The Circle Podcast, Eric and Tim unpack the deeper truth behind irritation and annoyance—and how these emotions often reveal unmet needs, unconscious beliefs, and moments where we fall out of integrity with ourselves.
With personal stories, embodied insights, and practical tools, they explore how common irritants—like getting cut off in traffic or feeling disrespected—can be invitations to pause, reflect, and reclaim your power. Learn how to identify your emotional patterns, reconnect with your needs, and communicate with more clarity and compassion.
Perfect for anyone navigating emotional triggers, relationship challenges, or working to become more grounded and self-aware in daily life.
Topics covered:
- How irritation signals deeper unmet needs
- The link between emotional reaction and unconscious programming
- Why men often struggle to articulate needs
- Tools from men’s work and nonviolent communication
- The relationship between integrity, self-trust, and emotional regulation
- How to transform reactions into conscious responses
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric Bomyea (00:05):
Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go
all in on men's work, embodimentpractice, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. Ifyou haven't already, please be
sure to like, comment, and leaveus a review. And you can also
send us a message with any ofyour questions. We'd love to
answer them in a future episode.Today, we get curious about
moments of irritation.
What if they weren't justannoyances, but invitations to
(00:27):
look deeper at our unmet needs,old programming, and the stories
we've been telling ourselves? AsCarl Jung said, everything that
irritates us about others canlead us to an understanding of
ourselves. Tim, are you ready togo all in? I'm ready. Let's do
this.
So we all experience bigfeelings like frustration,
irritation, annoyance. But doyou think most of us can even
(00:47):
recognize where they're actuallycoming from? And what do you
think irritation is trying toteach us when it shows up in our
lives?
Timothy Bish (00:55):
I think that when we're in a big emotion, it's
really, really hard to have aperspective on it because we're
so wrapped up in it and thesensation of it. So when we
think about anger or irritationor frustration, it is often this
hot, all consuming, fiery sortof quivering kind of, you know,
(01:20):
experience. And that experiencecan be really hard then to pause
and say, I wonder I wonderwhat's happening here. What I
think happens pretty frequentlyis that we can feel very
connected to, I'm mad aboutthat. So whatever the that is.
I'm I'm mad that that person cutme off. I'm mad that that person
(01:41):
is expressing themselves in away that is contrary to what I
think they should do or what Ilike or but the ability to then
go back and think about what thebeginning of this process is is
really tricky in that moment. Soone of the things that we do in
men's work then is recall orlook for patterns and then shine
(02:06):
the light of curiosity onto it.Become curious about, every time
someone cuts me off in traffic,I have a big feeling. I wonder I
wonder what that's about.
And so it would be easy, and Ithink a lot of people do, stop
at, it's about this personcutting me off. The end. And
(02:27):
then what that will do is it'lljust mean that every time
someone cuts you off, you'regonna have a reaction that feels
uncomfortable. And then somelevel, from my perspective, you
lose a little bit of control andcontentment in your life. Or you
could become curious about itand say, I wonder what's really
going on.
And then maybe when you havesome discovery around that, make
(02:49):
a different choice.
Eric Bomyea (02:50):
Absolutely. When a big emotion enters the house,
right, like, they're beyondknocking on the door. They are
now in the house and now it'slike you're confronted with
them. And so it could benefit usover the long term to be like,
Hey, how does this motion, thisbig feeling keep getting in the
house? Like, where did it comefrom?
(03:10):
Right. And getting curious aboutthat so that when we're in
traffic, it's not just thatreoccurring program that's on
loop.
Timothy Bish (03:18):
Well, that's the word. So you just brought it up
then. So this reoccurringprogram that we're running in
our head or some form of beliefthat we have is usually the
beginning of this process. So Ihave a program that's running in
my head. And let's say for thetraffic example, the program is
(03:40):
that not only should people bevery considerate drivers, and
inherent in that is considerateaccording to my definition of
consideration.
Right? Not only should they beconsiderate drivers in the way
that I think considerationshould be demonstrated, I also
don't think that people should,violate my my boundaries in any
(04:01):
way. Then you realize, well,that belief or that program is
the beginning point for yourexperience of this moment. And
then you can start to look at,okay. Well, where did that
belief come from, and and why doI why do I why do I believe it?
And is it serving me?
Eric Bomyea (04:19):
Right. Why do I have it? Did I put it there? Did
somebody else put it there? Didsociety put it there?
And like you just said, is itserving? Getting curious about
it. In that moment of traffic,me getting irritated that
somebody cut me off may serve apurpose. It may serve a little
bit of a recognition that like,oh, my safety was just violated.
(04:40):
Mhmm.
Right? Or like my perception ofmy safety was just violated. And
so it does have its you know, itis a signal, right, that can be
beneficial at some point in ourlives or at points. But then
asking, like, is this alwaysbeneficial?
Timothy Bish (04:56):
Right. Well, and I've had the experience of, I
believe I'm a conscientiousdriver. And I'm
Eric Bomyea (05:04):
in the car with you. You are.
Timothy Bish (05:05):
Thank you. And and I and I group, learning how to
drive in Pittsburgh, which is avery tricky topography. I think
it does make for relativelystrong drivers. And I have had
moments when because ofsomething else, I have cut
someone off. And in that momentthinking, oh, if I could, I
would explain.
I I didn't mean to do suspectyou didn't like it. I could
(05:28):
understand why you don't likeit, but it was unintentional
and, like, here is the reasonwhy I did it or why I had to do
it. So having the awarenessthat, oh, that person's action
or behavior may not beconsistent with my perception of
(05:49):
it. So if every time someonecuts me off, I assume that they
are careless or that they don'tvalue me or my safety or my car
or my autonomy or, you know,whatever. If I'm always making
that assumption, then I might bemissing a real humanity there,
which, oh, that person isactually a great driver who did
not want to do this to me atall.
(06:09):
But it happened anyway becausewe're in traffic and sometimes
that happens.
Eric Bomyea (06:13):
Yeah. And, like, I think the catch here is or the
tricky part is, like, that like,I can I can be in that position
and, like, that reaction isstill gonna come up? Irritation
is still gonna enter my house.Right? It didn't even knock.
It just came in. And so, like,at that point, like, how do I
kind of, like, bring incuriosity about, okay,
(06:34):
irritation, you are here, andnow I would like to very much,
like, bring in some calm or,like, something, like, something
else in to meet you so that Ican now handle this situation,
especially in a in a trickysituation like traffic Yeah.
Right, where I do want to bringmy emotions a little bit more
regulated so that I can maintainfocus?
Timothy Bish (06:54):
Well, I think it's, I think it's dangerous to
try to think about bringing incalm. And we've talked about
calm, right, to be like, calmbecomes a practice. Right? And
instead, I think I think what wemight wanna do is bring in some
perspective. So it is possiblethat the person who just cut you
off is an asshole and that theyjust don't care.
(07:15):
That is that is a possibility.But it's also possible that it's
a totally good person who hasany number of other things
happening, and and thentherefore, maybe would feel less
egregious. Right? Maybe it's amother whose kid in the front
seat is about to throw up. Thisactually happened with me and my
(07:36):
mom where I was she was driving,and I was getting carsick, and
she was trying to put a paperbag in front of me, while drive
you know?
Mhmm. Mhmm. It does not meanthat the person can't say, oh,
like, you should be morecareful.
Eric Bomyea (07:49):
Yeah.
Timothy Bish (07:50):
But it would be, well, am I gonna change my own
mood and my my life experienceright now based on something
like that? So if we know someoneis just being neglectful or
aggressive or dangerous, thenmaybe, yeah, we can have that
reaction. It's not like anyreaction is necessarily bad. But
(08:13):
if the reaction is always thisreally big one, it may be out of
proportion. It may be out ofcontext.
Eric Bomyea (08:20):
Yeah. So I think of when I ride my motorcycle,
right? The saying is ride yourown ride because I cannot afford
to be in my reaction for toolong. Like, other people's
behavior on the road can beconsequential to my life very
quickly. And if somebody cuts meoff, I have very little time to
(08:40):
be in an irritated reaction.
I actually have to, like, coachmyself very quickly to remind
myself this is my ride, I can'tcontrol them, and I have to
focus on me. And so I have tobring tools in to calm myself,
steady myself, or bring in calm,right? So that I'm not in that
reaction. But the reactionhappens. I got cut off in
(09:01):
traffic.
I'm irritated. But if I stay inthat reaction for too long, I
could die. Right? I have to ridemy own ride. I cannot like, even
in that moment, I really can'teven, like, bring in too much of
consideration of, like, whatthat person might be doing.
Right? Like, I I cannot afford.I do not have the luxury of time
to even contemplate, is thisperson a asshole and they do
(09:23):
this all the time? Or is thisperson just trying to to help
their kid?
Timothy Bish (09:26):
Yeah. But you could do that work later.
Eric Bomyea (09:27):
I could do that work later. Yeah.
Timothy Bish (09:28):
We could bring the curiosity to it later. So it's
really about starting tounderstand the patterns that are
operating in our lives andespecially the ones that create
discord, discomfort, andpropensity for possible
explosive or unskillfulengagement. Right? So if I'm
(09:50):
really irritated or very angryabout something, you know, anger
is not necessarily a bad thing,but it's what I do with that
anger. So if I'm if I'm gettingangry a lot, I don't have the
tools to understand how to movethat energy or work with it,
this is when I can start to makebad choices, bad choices that
(10:11):
will have a consequence.
I will tell you, my biologicalfather had a pretty, pretty high
level of road rage and apropensity to want to fight and,
like, be a tough guy. And he onetime, my sister and I were in
the back seat. I must have beensomewhere between six and eight
(10:33):
years old, so she must have beeneight to 10 years old. And he
got into, like, road rage with atractor trailer. And I don't
even know exactly how itstarted, but they were both so
enraged that they they mutuallyagreed to pull off into a
parking lot to have a physicalaltercation.
And so the the truck pulls off.My dad pulls off. My dad gets
(10:58):
out of the car and opens up theback seat where my sister and I
are, like, to grab his little,like, baton thing weapon. And my
sister and I were in hysterics,like, just screaming and crying.
Like, what you know?
And then I think back to thatand be like, oh, you both were
so reactive about what waslikely getting cut off or or
(11:22):
honking more aggressively thansomeone like I can't remember
what it was, but, you know, whatI do know is that chances are it
wasn't it didn't merit thislevel, and they almost had a
fist fight. The reason theydidn't have a fist fight was
because my sister and I becameso hysterical that something
switched in my dad. And he hegot back in the car. Remember he
drove past it. He was like,you're lucky my kids aren't
(11:44):
here, and we drove off.
We were like so so when I tellthat story, in addition to I
want you all to feel badly forme Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea (11:53):
Aw. And sounds like a scary situation.
Timothy Bish (11:55):
No. Was really, really scary. But but you think
about neither of those men werein control. Yeah. They'd given
all their control.
And then what were they gonnado? Commit, either a misdemeanor
or a felony in public for what?Because in the the for what is I
have no idea how to handle thisemotion. I have no context or
tools. And so what matters to menow is feeling stronger than you
(12:18):
Justified.
Justified or righteous.
Eric Bomyea (12:20):
Like there's something that happened to me
and I'm taking it verypersonally, right? And now I
can't rest until I've reclaimedit or I've taken action on it.
And that's a situation that is ascary situation to witness. Also
a scary situation to be in. I'vebeen there.
(12:44):
I've admittedly been there whereI've lost control of my rational
abilities and I'm in that fullreaction. And many times, when I
think about it, it is anger orit's like a really big irritant.
And I'm like, oh, I am alreadyway past the point of no return.
And it takes a long time tobring yourself back down. It
(13:08):
takes a big moment.
Like, my kids are in hystericsto, like, start to snap me out
of it.
Timothy Bish (13:15):
Yeah. My kids are screaming, daddy, daddy, don't
don't do this. Right. Yeah. Andthen so this is when we think
about men's work and when wethink about things like, oh,
we're gonna do a fifteen minuteor a thirty minute chi
generator, or we're gonna gointo a sweat lodge and do a
thing.
And from the outside, you mightthink, well, that's so intense.
(13:35):
Like, what, you know, what isthe purpose? You're like, oh, to
get to these places so we canstart to understand how it feels
and how we are in that feeling.You're like, oh, I'm I'm really
uncomfortable in this moment.What like, how much agency do I
have?
What can I do? And then, youknow, of course, in men's work,
we have we have tools, and wehave guidance, and we have a
(13:57):
container, we have other mensupporting us. And even if we
cross over, as we talked aboutin previous episodes, we cross
over a little bit, we understandwe start to get a clearer idea
of that that edge, that limitfor us because we are working
with it in and around it. Ithink for people who have no
idea where their edge is and howto work with it, people will get
(14:21):
blown past it. And then they'relike, I'm just in unchartered
territory.
I have no idea what to do, sowhat I'm gonna do is fist fight
this 18 wheeler, like, truckdriver in front of my children
because I don't know what elseto do.
Eric Bomyea (14:37):
Yeah. And and, like, that's I'm, like, I'm
trying to, like I'm I'm in acouple different movies right
now. Like Okay. I'm in the movieof, like, the truck driver, your
father, and you as well. I'mlike, wow, there's a lot
happening here to explore.
There's a lot of heightenedemotions. There's a lot of big
emotions happening. And I thinkthat one of the things that I
(15:01):
talked about in the intro isthat may not necessarily Yes,
there could be a default programrunning, but there could also be
an unmet need happening here,right? And how an unmet need
could cause a big emotionalreaction. So I think of you and
your sister.
You've had an unmet need of ofsafety, of assuredness, of
(15:24):
certainty. And because that needis not being met, welcome in big
emotion. Your father, maybethere's an unmet need for
consideration of significance tomatter to be considered, not
being met, and now all of asudden in big emotional
reaction.
Timothy Bish (15:41):
I feel like a lot of it comes from and now beyond
this one example, I feel likeI've witnessed a lot in in my
caregivers, this want or orexpectation of respect. And so
when when that isn't met, a lotof anger and frustration come
(16:04):
up. So I feel like the themajority of the times that I've
watched, specifically straightmen in my life get angry in
these ways, it has been whenthey feel disrespected somehow,
and they don't know how to talkabout that, how to self soothe.
(16:24):
And so just bursts offrustration come out, and
they're probably unaware that,oh, I have a need for
significance, one of the sixcore vet needs. Right?
Significance. I have a need forsignificance that isn't being
met right now, and because ofit, I'm about to blow up in a
(16:45):
way that is unhelpful foreveryone.
Eric Bomyea (16:47):
Yeah. Having a big emotional reaction to an unmet
need. I mean, for me, and that'show I've come to learn about my
own emotions through my owntherapy and through the studying
that I've done of nonviolentcommunication like that is how
emotions arise, right? Bothcomfortable emotions arise
because a need has gone met orunmet. And when we are in a
(17:11):
perpetual state of our needsbecoming unmet, our default
programming starts to becomelike, how do I get this need
met?
And that can come out insideways, shadowy ways that then
results into these programs thatrun because it's the only way
that we know how to get the needmet.
Timothy Bish (17:29):
Well, and I think we have to then talk about the
expectations of needs. Right? Soit isn't just is a need being
met or not being met. It's alsois your perception or
understanding of that needinfluencing it? So, for example,
do I believe I need more respectthan I actually have earned or
(17:51):
or deserve?
Because then I feel like that'sa recipe for disaster. Right? To
be like, oh, I believe for anynumber of reasons, I believe
that I you know, everyone shouldrespect me. And so when I feel
disrespected, that need's notbeing met. But is that is that a
legitimate need?
I don't you know?
Eric Bomyea (18:08):
Well, I may I may to unpack that a little bit, we
might look at it as like, okay.Like, so the story is respect.
Right? I'm I'm not I'm notthinking that I when I tell
myself that somebody doessomething a certain way, I'm
telling myself that I'm notbeing respected. And so I do
have a need to matter.
(18:28):
I do have a need forsignificance. Am I telling
myself that the only way to getthis need met is through this
very specific way? Or can I lookat the need itself and saying,
oh, the kind of big reactionthat I have and the way that I
tell myself that the only way Ican get this need met is to
(18:50):
demand or command respect? Andwhen it doesn't hit this certain
level, then my need isn't beingmet. Well, like, can I get a
little curious a little bit moreabout that?
Bit like, okay. How else can Ifeel significant? You know, in
what ways can I feelsignificant? And starting with
myself, first and foremost, howcan I how can I help myself to
recognize I matter? I'mimportant.
(19:13):
My voice matters. Mhmm. What Ihave to say matters. Like, how
can I start with me first?
Timothy Bish (19:17):
Right. Well, so the but so when you're having
the experience of irritation orany big emotion, we have the
opportunity to become curiousabout what need or needs are not
being met and what stories do Ihave around them. Right? And
just shining the light ofawareness and curiosity onto
(19:38):
those things, I think, isalready the beginning of the
solution. And a softeningaround, oh, my story is this.
Well, is that you know, this wasa thing that we noticed a lot in
the circle, the sharing circlethis week, was this idea of, oh,
that person isn't beingconsiderate. That person isn't
(19:59):
being polite. That person isn't,you know, being diligent. That
person isn't you know? And I wasasking the question, well, is
whose definition of that are wegoing off of?
And and the truth is we're we'realmost always going off of,
well, they're not being diligentin the way I think diligence
should be done. And then withcuriosity, you like, well, maybe
(20:25):
they're being diligent in theirown way. And then the power that
comes from that would be, well,maybe I can have a really
powerful conversation with themto better understand how they
are, who they are, and help thembetter understand what I need or
what is needed in this moment asopposed to jump to a conclusion,
(20:45):
have a big feeling, maybe a badreaction, and chances are either
explosive communication or noneat all, in which case we're
really far away from a solution.Right.
Eric Bomyea (20:55):
Like when we haven't welcomed each other into
our internal environment to letpeople know what it is we have
going on inside of us. Hey, Ihave this thing that's arising
inside of me. And I think rightnow it's because there's a
discrepancy. I'm sensing theremight be a discrepancy in the
(21:16):
way that we perceive diligenceright now. Like, for me, I
believe that people should workin this way, right?
And what I'm noticing in you isthat you might not be working in
that same way, so can we justchat about it for a little bit?
Right? But that's like, to getto that point in an irritated or
reactionary way is reallyfucking hard.
Timothy Bish (21:38):
Well, if you're having the experience of
irritation or the big emotion,then I think it's really tricky,
and it requires someone who hasdone a lot of practice and work
around that. And in my case, Iwould say chances are I would
still be taking deep breaths anddoing some grounding through my
body in order to deliver that.If you're new to it, you might
(22:03):
actually have to wait. You mighthave to take the emotion and go
somewhere else and process it orlet it, you know, make its way
through you before you have thatconversation.
Eric Bomyea (22:16):
And then bringing in some journaling or some sort
of, like, way to process, okay,this thing happened, now I want
to unpack it a little bit withmyself, right? So to get that
curiosity going of like, okay, Ijust had this big reaction. It
was around this specific topic.What happened? Where else in my
(22:36):
life has this maybe come upbefore?
And and starting to say, like,like, what's there?
Timothy Bish (22:43):
Well, it's funny that you're saying this, like,
sort of making me wanna smilebecause you're talking like a
person who does men's work.Right? And so, oh, of course, of
course, you're gonna you'regonna you're already really
curious about it, and you're andyou have these tools and you
know? But I think for the peoplewho are interested in starting
(23:03):
to do this sort of work and takemore control over their lives,
and we have to talk about whyit's important. And why it's
important is because we can begiving a lot of power away, a
lot of valuable power and energyto situations that aren't
serving us.
And so when we talk about beingcurious and then journaling,
(23:26):
these are all just ways of youbetter understanding how it is
you are so that you become awareof your buttons. It's like I I
saw this thing where someone waslike, you know, they they just
keep pushing my buttons. Youknow, what am I supposed to do
when they push my button? Andthe person said, they couldn't
(23:47):
push your button if the buttonwasn't there. So the work is
yours.
Mhmm. And so so in thisconversation, if you're like,
oh, I don't wanna, like,journal. It's like, well, if
you're walking around with abunch of buttons that you
especially if you don't knowthat they're there and then
people keep pushing them and youkeep getting upset, you either
have the option to continuallysort of roll the dice every day
(24:08):
and see if someone pushes abutton or not, or you can take a
look at your buttons and startto gain control over them.
Absolutely. Especially, some ofthe control is, I see someone
getting close to that button.
Maybe I can take action nowthrough through deed, through
word, through, you know,behavior to prevent that from
(24:31):
even happening.
Eric Bomyea (24:32):
Welcome in boundary. Yeah. Like, I'm
starting to see it and I'm goingto create a boundary around
that. But that's, yeah, it's allpretty advanced work. And I
think that it does, it takesthat awakening almost of like,
yeah, I do not want to walkaround just covered in a bunch
of buttons that that literallysay, push me, push me, push me.
(24:55):
Right? Like Yeah.
Timothy Bish (24:56):
Well, and I think I think it's important to
remember. So the big feelingsand emotions or experiences are,
I think, one sign that we shouldbe curious. But another one is
and I wanna be careful becausesometimes sometimes I guess this
isn't always bad. But when youare so certain that you're
(25:17):
right, to me, that's anopportunity to be like, are are
there really any other vantagepoints from which I could view
this scenario? Now there aretimes when I I am right, like,
you know, and I think we've allhad that, like, I understand
what's happening and, you know,justifiable anger is totally
(25:37):
allowed.
But the idea that could Iconsider this from a variety of
other perspectives and just thatconsideration can start to
shift. What if what if theydidn't mean to be a jerk? What
if they didn't mean to beneglectful?
Eric Bomyea (25:53):
Yeah. And the the fine line here between, like,
justifiable anger and anddignance, right, like, being so
rooted in something that you'relike, I'm not gonna change.
Like, I'm gonna like, I am soirritated. I'm so big in my
emotion. I am just, like,indignant now.
Yeah. Right? Like, try to changeme.
Timothy Bish (26:09):
Right. Right. Like, I know what's right, and
I'm like, don't try to change mymind.
Eric Bomyea (26:13):
That's right. You know?
Timothy Bish (26:15):
Which can be done, but then often it's like, well,
then you're kind of constantlyin a conflict. Mhmm. There's
there is constantly a good guy,bad guy in that. Because if
you're right, then someone elsehas gotta be wrong. And, you
know, we live in a world wheresometimes people are right and
sometimes people are wrong, buthow happy are they?
(26:36):
How content are they? Because,ultimately, some of these things
aren't that important. So goingback to someone cuts you off in
traffic, assuming no one is in,like, danger, it's really not
that big a deal.
Eric Bomyea (26:53):
Right. Like, that's I go back to the motorcycle
example. It's not that big of adeal why that person cut me off.
What's the biggest deal? Savingmy life.
Like, being in my own ride. Is
Timothy Bish (27:02):
everyone okay?
Eric Bomyea (27:02):
Is everyone okay? Yeah. Right? Like, what is my
next step? Right?
What is the action that I take?Because the the the longer that
I sit in rumination, the lesschances that I have to make,
like, healthy strategicdecisions for my best interest.
If I'm just stuck there, like,in indignance, in I need to be
(27:25):
right, I need to prove that thisperson was an asshole for
cutting me off, the less timethat I have to make a wise
decision for myself. That'sright. Like, have that is taking
my power back.
Right? The more that I sit inrumination, I'm now giving that
person power. My power is I'mcoming back to me. I can't
(27:48):
control what just happened, butI can control what I do next.
Timothy Bish (27:52):
Well, it's the let them theory. Mhmm. Yeah. So No.
Go ahead.
Eric Bomyea (27:57):
I was gonna say, Mel Robbins, if you're
listening, for whatever chanceyou're listening, please come on
the podcast. We love you.
Timothy Bish (28:02):
Yeah. We love you. Please join us. No. But it's
it's really it's really, reallysmart.
Right? The and the Let ThemTheory really quickly, it
doesn't it doesn't allow for badbehavior, but it really focuses
on what can what can I do? Andthat's really where our power
lies. When when I when I stopfocusing on what you did or
(28:23):
didn't do that I like or dislikeand I start focusing on what I'm
doing, I've just taken aback anenormous amount of my power.
Eric Bomyea (28:31):
And it like, that can be really scary. Like, I've
been in those situations where,like, I'm scared to take back my
power because of theconsequences that I'm I'm
manufacturing in my head. I'mafraid to stand up for myself.
I'm afraid to say the thing. I'mafraid to acknowledge the
(28:52):
emotion.
And I just want to stay in thatreaction. Sometimes it could be
something like, I can just feelso safe there. And then it's
like, oh, if take an actionright now, that could have a
consequence. And am I ready forthe consequence? Am I ready to
take back my power and what thatcould mean?
(29:12):
Am I ready, like, for that?
Timothy Bish (29:14):
Yeah. I mean, it can be really, really scary. And
also, if you think about thealternative, the alternative is
betraying yourself a little or alot in service to a little bit
of comfort. It's funny. I sawsomething that on, I guess, on
Instagram.
(29:34):
How do you know that you're onthe right path? And the person's
response was, you know when youstop betraying yourself or you
stop be being put in situationswhere you are being asked to
betray yourself, and insteadyou're just able to live, you
know, in integrity. So it is apractice. I mean, I think we
(29:56):
have to remember that it isn't alight switch where we decide,
oh, I'm gonna you know, eachsituation's gonna come up with
its challenges, and chances arewe're gonna struggle. And I had
something recently where I hadto think.
I'm like, oh, this is risky forme to speak my truth. But I was
(30:18):
thinking about the person thatis I'm trying to be and who I'm
trying to step into. And I said,well, that person would would
compassionately speak his mindhere. And so I did it, and it
was really scary, and it mighthave had consequences. But I
think that's the risk we have totake.
Eric Bomyea (30:38):
Step into the full into the fullness. And we've
talked about integrity. We hadan episode on integrity. But I
think, especially around thistopic, I think it deserves a
little bit more exploration.Being in integrity with
ourselves and with others andhow that when we are out of
(31:01):
integrity with ourselves orothers, how that can also create
big reactions.
Right? Because you said, like,there's this energy leakage
that's happening and giving thepower, so can we just stay with
that for a
Timothy Bish (31:13):
little Well, you know, the thing about integrity
is that we will I think we canoften think of it as I'm in
integrity or I'm not. But itactually becomes this, ebbing
and flowing thing where I cansay I'm gonna do something. So
integrity is upholding thecommitments we make to
(31:34):
ourselves, upholding thecommitments we make to others,
living living congruent with ourstated purpose, those sorts of
things. Right? And so I can saythat I'm gonna do something and
mean it.
And then some unknown things canpop up, and that can change. And
(31:55):
so the practice of integritythen is, hey. Listen. I told you
I was gonna have this done byThursday, and now it turns out.
And the the thing about so thepractice of integrity is
recognizing, so this is when,like, out of integrity.
Like, recognizing when thatisn't necessarily gonna be able
to come to fruition and thenclaiming it and then making a
(32:16):
new commitment around it, to me,is also integrity. So integrity
isn't, I said this, so I have todo it at all costs. Integrity
can be, I recognize I made acommitment that I legitimately
thought I could do, and now Irecognize something has shifted,
and I need to make a newcommitment with conscious
communication around it. To me,that is still integrity.
Eric Bomyea (32:39):
And that that can happen internally and
externally. Right? That thatdialogue can happen with
ourselves. Like I made thiscommitment to myself or I said
that this is how I want to beand something has popped up. And
so I'm going to have thisdialogue with myself and kind of
renegotiate with myself or atleast come up with an
alternative that still feelswithin something that I can
(33:00):
achieve and something that feelsgood for me or good within me.
Right. And then also how we dothat externally as well.
Timothy Bish (33:06):
And then the the trick there is that you don't
allow that ebbing and flowing ofthe process of integrity to let
you off the hook. Mhmm. You haveto be really in integrity, you
have to be really honest withyourself about, am I am I
responding to a thing that isoccurring and honoring what is,
(33:28):
or am I letting myself off thehook because I'm tired or I'm
lazy or I don't want to? Andthat's a powerful distinction.
Eric Bomyea (33:37):
Yeah. Acknowledging those truths about ourselves and
being able to recognize them andtalk about them and communicate
them. Yeah. Then, so stayingwith that for a second, like
connecting it back to our topictoday of like big reactions or
big emotions, like how can beingout of integrity like, maybe
(33:58):
lead to some of these bigemotions or these big reactions?
Timothy Bish (34:02):
Well, I mean, I think the one of the main ways
would be when someone is out ofintegrity I'll speak for myself.
When I'm out of integrity, Ifeel disempowered. When I feel
disempowered, I'm moresusceptible to then feeling like
a need isn't being met orrelying heavily on these stories
(34:24):
that I have or programs I haverunning in my head about the way
things should be so that if itdoesn't go that way, I'm
susceptible to breakdown orexplosion. Whereas when I'm in
integrity, there's agroundedness to that. Like, oh,
I said I was gonna do this.
(34:44):
I'm doing it. I said I was gonnado that, and I did it. And,
like, I said I was gonna and Ithere's a strength in that. And
it's, you know, it's, CarolynMay says, like, that's how we
build self esteem. We uphold thecommitments we make to
ourselves.
And when you do that, you walkaround more grounded, less
(35:05):
shakable.
Eric Bomyea (35:06):
Yeah. It's like the more that we can commit to
ourselves and the way that wewant to be, the way that we want
to engage in the world, morefrequently we uphold that. Yeah,
like I'm still working on it.I'm definitely still working on
it on daily basis. And I canalready tell, like, as I come
(35:30):
more into integrity with myselfand I understand the man that I
want to be.
And that's key too is that,like, being in integrity is
going be different for everyperson. We're all going to have
a little bit of a different wayof looking at it. And it's a
very personal thing. Like, whatdoes it mean for me? Who's the
man that I want to be?
Who's this person that I want tobe in the world? And what are
(35:51):
the actions and decisions andbehaviors that I'm exhibiting
that get me closest to that sothat I can be a little bit more
grounded in my everyday.
Timothy Bish (36:03):
Well, this is why when we start to practice
integrity with other, it becomesimportant then to communicate
what integrity means to me andwhat it means to them. Mhmm. So
that I can start to have aclearer idea of, well, how if I
make a commitment to thatperson, what what are they
(36:23):
expecting, and what can I say ordo to either meet that
expectation or to let them knowthat I'm going to meet it in a
different way? And it becomesconscious conversation.
Eric Bomyea (36:35):
Yeah. And and creating that that
interdependence between twopeople. And it's like, Oh, we
both have our best interest atheart and each other's best
interest at heart. And we'rejust trying to help each other
meet needs when we can andhopefully not get to big
(36:59):
reactions as frequently.
Timothy Bish (37:01):
Yeah. Yeah. I think we can all agree that when
we're in a big emotion or a bigreaction, specifically when they
are negative or uncomfortable,we're not we're probably not
having a lot of fun. We'reprobably not at ease. We're
probably not grounded, and wewould like to minimize that
(37:22):
experience.
So this is why this work is soimportant because I feel like
minimizing this experience isn'tstanding at a craps table and
hoping for a good roll of thedice. Right? Minimizing the
experience is creating thecauses for what we wanna see in
the world. So we you know,you're a gardener and you want
(37:46):
tomatoes. Well, then you betterplant tomato seeds and then tend
tomato seeds the way tomatoseeds need to be tended.
So this is sort of like a like athing about karma now. We we can
take conscious actions to helpus avoid these situations, and
that one of those actions isshine the light of awareness and
curiosity on the the patterns inyour life where you end up
(38:10):
feeling these things mostfrequently. So whether it's the
person who cut you off, in thecar, whether it's the person who
talks over you, you know, inconversation, whatever the thing
is, you have to first look atwhat is operating in you. And
then, you know, the consciousman can bring conscious
(38:32):
conversation. At some point,when when you feel grounded and
steady enough, you could say tothat person who keeps talking
over you, oh, I think MelRobbins just talked about this.
You can say something to them ina respectful but strong way, But
you're that's gonna be nearlyimpossible if you are mired in
your own reaction. If you're soangry or hurt or upset or sad or
(38:56):
whatever, it is almost certainlynot gonna come out powerfully.
It's gonna come out sideways orlacking a certain amount of
skill.
Eric Bomyea (39:05):
Right. The the dagger is going be very much
pointed out. Right? It's like,I'm I'm trying to come at you.
Right?
And justify it or whatever itmight be versus saying, okay,
can I bring compassion? Can Ibring empathy first and foremost
for myself? There's somethinghappening. Coming inward, coming
(39:28):
inward, coming inward, what ishappening? Why am I reacting
this way?
And then being able to say,okay, what is it that I may be
needing in this moment? And thenbeing able to bring that into
conversation and put in arequest to somebody or create a
boundary around it ascompassionately as can be
(39:51):
possible in that moment. Yeah. Iwant to go back to needs because
I think we have a lot of, like,circles happening. We have
needs, we have judgment, we haveemotions, we have big reactions,
we have, like, a lot of thingskind of swirling around.
(40:13):
And I think one of the thingsthat I've noticed most in the
men's groups that I've been apart of is this challenge to
articulate needs, to actuallycommunicate what is it that we
are needing in any given moment.And I'm curious for you, like,
why do you think that is? Why doyou think men, in particular,
(40:36):
have such a hard timecommunicating what it is that
they need?
Timothy Bish (40:39):
Because I think communicating a need is
recognizing a vulnerability. AndI think that we grew up in a
time when, like, most of ourheroes don't like, the images, I
don't really need anything. I'vealready got everything I need,
and I'm I'm in charge, and Iknow what to do, and I'm gonna
(41:03):
find the solution. And that isthis thing we're all striving
for, I think many of us arestriving for. So if I were to
come up to you and say, Irecognize that I have a need for
I'm gonna speak I'm gonna selfdisclose everyone who's
watching.
Like, I I need to feelsignificant because, you know,
(41:24):
when I was a kid, I didn't. Sojust admitting that is a
vulnerability. Right? And thenso if someone if some
manipulative, like, angry, like,evil cat stroking, like, villain
in my life wanted to, they couldcreate scenarios in which I
didn't feel significant if theyyou know? So I have to I have to
recognize that it exists.
(41:45):
I have to own that I that I needit, which then is letting you
know there's a vulnerabilityhere. And then I would have to
have some vocabulary around howto say it and how to and how to
ask for it. Right? So the needfor significance can, as an
(42:06):
example, look very different fordifferent people. And, you know,
love languages, like, one of thethings words of affirmation are
is one of my love languages.
Right? So when I want to feelsignificant or when I want
someone to reassure me that I amsignificant to them, I'm often
wanting it in one way. Thatisn't necessarily so then we
(42:30):
would have to kind of know,well, how how do I even accept
this need? What would I even askfor? What do have to be aware
of?
Like, oh, if you could if youcould just remind me from time
to time that, like, I matter toyou. Or someone else doesn't
want that at all. They want theywant to, they want you to make
them dinner. And, like sosatisfying the same need, but
(42:53):
coming in a different way. So itrequires an understanding of
self.
There is a need. I'm willing toclaim that need, and then I'm
I'm aware of myself enough toknow the ways in which that need
can be satisfied for me, andthen I can communicate that to
the people I need to communicateit to. So that's a lot of stuff
(43:15):
if you haven't if you haven'tever done it.
Eric Bomyea (43:17):
Right. And sometimes it's like like the the
vocabulary may not be there, butthe bodily sensation might be.
Timothy Bish (43:25):
The loneliness, the emptiness, is that what you
mean?
Eric Bomyea (43:27):
Yeah. And how does a big reaction, right? Like when
I'm feeling insignificant,right? And I'm starting to feel
like I don't matter to people,what starts to come up is anger.
I get angry.
Then I sometimes get a littlebitey. And sometimes I can be
(43:51):
accusatory. And sometimes I canstart to say things that can be
hurtful or misconstrued as a wayof like I'm trying to attack
somebody. And so that's what I'mcurious about, right? Is that
like, you know, on your journeyof understanding that you have
this specific need and one ofthe ways in which you can get
(44:13):
that need met is through a lovelanguage of yours, words of
affirmation, and the ability torequest that of people to help
you meet that need.
Like, the curiosity is, like,before you had that, right, what
were some of the things that mayhave been happening, you know?
Timothy Bish (44:30):
Yeah. I think I would have a big feeling, and I
would have a story around thatfeeling, and then would get
angry, and oftentimes that angrywould be some version of silent
punishment. Right? It would be,I'm gonna withdraw. I'm gonna
(44:55):
become nonresponsive.
And, obviously, people do thatwith the hope of, well, I hope
you notice that I'm not thereanymore. I hope that, like, you
start to recognize theimportance that I had because
now you're missing it and, youknow, And then and then I had I
(45:18):
had the experience in my life afew times where I remember
thinking, oh, I was mad at thatperson for doing this thing, and
now I'm doing a similar thing ina different situation, it didn't
necessarily mean if it like, ifwhat they were doing is what I
(45:41):
am doing, then it didn't meanwhat I thought it meant. So
there are, again, someperspective on when I'm certain
it means exactly what I think itmeans, I'm probably in a danger
zone. Because if we're dealingwith another person, there's a
high probability that they havea different perspective of the
(46:03):
same thing. So, you know, VastuSamyajitabhata Thayaurabhavakta
Pantaha, the yogic teaching ofemptiness.
You know, the object being thesame, but the mind stuff being
different. The perceiver willproject onto that object the
content of its mind. And so wecan say with a lot of certainty,
chances are we we're having adifferent experience of this
(46:26):
thing, and that is a powerfulmoment. So maybe they're, you
know, maybe they're not doingthis the the thing your story is
telling them. Well, I used toget really attached to this is
what it would mean for me, so itmust mean that for you.
And the truth is, like, a lot oftimes, if I had done the thing
that they were doing, it mighthave meant that for me. It
(46:47):
almost certainly would havemeant that for me. That does not
mean that it meant that forthem.
Eric Bomyea (46:51):
Thank you very much for letting me in. We got there.
We got there. And I just I'mvery appreciative. And I think
it's your work that you've doneis incredible.
When I talk to you and I see howmuch and I experience how much
(47:11):
awareness you bring intoconversation and the way that
you engage, I find it reallyadmirable.
Timothy Bish (47:18):
Wow, thank you. And
Eric Bomyea (47:20):
that's where my intention came from with that
exploration was like justwanting to see kind of what the
journey was like and bring thatout to help others see as well
that, like, you know, this is ajourney. It does take time and,
(47:43):
like, there is components. Goahead.
Timothy Bish (47:45):
Yeah. So in my, you know, my childhood, was no
permission for big emotionsgenerally from from children,
unless we were, like, very sador if we were hurt. Otherwise,
we were supposed to just begrateful, and so there was no
room for anger, irritation,frustration, edges, any of that
(48:09):
kind of, you know, stuff. And soI got really adept at kind of
pushing down and ignoring. Ithink a lot of people can relate
to that.
Right? Because I think very fewof us were modeled, oh, you're
having a big emotion right now.You know, that must be
uncomfortable. And, like, thatkind of So so it takes a lot of
(48:30):
practice to start to undo that.So, you know, you then suddenly,
I'm in New York City at 18 or 19years old without having
practiced any of these things,and I'm trying to navigate adult
relationships, and I amcompletely incapable of asking
like, recognizing what my needsare, asking to have them met,
(48:52):
trusting that someone can meetthem, having vocabulary to
articulate them, all these sortof things.
And so it took, what, twenty sixyears more to find language and
the confidence to speak it andsay you know? And then and then
also, I think what's reallyimportant about this is that
when you've like, when you havea need and it comes out
(49:15):
unskillfully, then you're you'remet with that same sort of
energy. So then you're also sortof incentivized to be like, oh,
well, it just came out sideways.I because I don't know how to
say it skillfully, and so nowthat person's mad at me. And
then you might get the message,well, then you shouldn't say
things like that because thenpeople get mad at you.
Mhmm. And then it incentivizesyou to keep it bottled up more.
And, again, so why is men's workimportant? Because we create
(49:38):
communities in which theseconversations are the norm. And
the understanding is that we canhave a tough conversation, even
a sharpening conversation,something that is directive.
As long as it has heart, we canhave the conversation. It can be
uncomfortable, and ourrelationship isn't gonna crumble
because of it. And I thinkthat's the thing that's really
(50:01):
missing in a lot of parts of theworld and interactions is that
trust. I I can be irritated withyou and still love you. Yeah.
I can be I can dislike somethingthat you did but still value you
deeply in my life. And and Ihave a skill set to bring it to
(50:23):
you so that you become aware ofit. You learn more about me. I
learn more about you. And withthe trust that it isn't gonna
blow up our relationship becauseI'm coming with a lot of heart.
So that's why this concept inmen's work of sacred dick, you
know, that that guy, it's likelike, he comes sharply and calls
out the thing, but he does itwith a lot of heart. Without the
(50:44):
heart, you're just an asshole.But with the heart, you're
you're the catalyst for growth.You are the sacred dick, not
just a dick. And and it's reallypowerful.
And when we step into that, youknow, steel sharpened steel,
that's why we do men's work. I'mgonna reflect back what
happened, and it'suncomfortable. It's really
(51:07):
uncomfortable, but it alsopasses quickly. And then we're
better and stronger on the otherside because
Eric Bomyea (51:15):
of it. And what it inspires from there. Right?
Like, you being a strong man inmy life has inspired me, and I
trust that it has inspired manyothers. Actually, I know this.
I've been told this many times.It is an inspiration to see a
(51:35):
man who has done and is doingthat is an ongoing thing, the
work, and who shows up sopowerfully in engagement and is
willing to get a littleuncomfortable with a lot of
heart. And it it does like, itinspires. So very appreciative
(51:55):
and grateful for that.
Timothy Bish (51:56):
Well, I mean, I'm appreciative. Thank you for that
reflection. That's really sweet.But also, I'm appreciative for
this work and for the for theteachers and leaders who have
come before us. Right?
So in the men's workspace, youknow, Amir Kalighi, Zappa Raka,
John Weineland, David Data. Youknow? And but then also in the
lineages of, like, these yogicand shamanic, you know,
(52:18):
practices to help us create thisbecause it is mutually
beneficial. We all really we allreally need it. And I think I
think when I was a kid, Ithought every conflict could
potentially derail all therelationships that matter to me.
And so then I had to start tocontort myself and and betray
(52:41):
myself in in pursuit of makingsure that the thing I needed
didn't fly away, whether, youknow, my mom or, you know,
someone to care for me orwhatever. And this work
encourages us to show up asfully as we can and and and meet
people with that and be met bythat. And that to me is healing
(53:03):
salve that our world needs nowso much. We need it so much
because the alternative arethese blustery signs of
inauthentic power that weunfortunately have a lot of
examples of currently right now.I'm gonna I'm gonna flare up.
I'm gonna pound my chest. I'mgonna, you know, snarl and show
(53:25):
bare my teeth and, you know, asopposed to I'm gonna show up and
tell you, I really didn't likethat. Can we have a conversation
about this? That is power. Sowhen we talk about men's work,
we're talking about real power.
Power about power aboutinfluencing your life so that
you are more authentic, you aremore content, you have deeper,
more meaningful connections, andconnections that you can trust.
(53:49):
Trustable connections.
Eric Bomyea (53:53):
Beautifully said, trustable connections that can
be resistance to when it is sotempting to betray ourselves or
betray others, And staying inintegrity, to be stable and be
in integrity to avoid the selfbetrayals or the betrayals to
(54:15):
others so that we can lead withheart. And it's a journey, it's
a road, a long road to getthere. I think though that the
things that we talked abouttoday are important steps
towards that. Recognizing thatbig emotions, they do happen.
(54:37):
They're not going anywhere.
They're not going anywhere.Yeah. Asking ourselves though,
does it need to be this big?Does it need to be this
frequent? Is this serving me?
If no, okay. Why might I begetting into this scenario over
and over again? Why might thisbig reaction be happening over
and over again at this scale, atconsistency? And then digging a
(55:04):
little bit deeper. Okay.
Like, I see the program. I seewhat's happening here. Is there
something else? Is there anunmet need here? Is there
something that I'm out ofintegrity with and really
starting to sharpen ourselves sothat we can be the most full
part of ourselves or the fullestthat we can be out into the
(55:27):
world to then love and lead withthe heart and sharpness
sometimes with heart.
I'm feeling very complete withthis episode. How are you
feeling? I feel complete aswell. Alright. Well, thank you
very much for your insights andsharing all of your experience
(55:50):
with us today.
Appreciate it. Can you take usout, please?
Timothy Bish (55:53):
Yes. So as we leave this sacred circle of
exploration, awareness, insight,I wish everyone safety,
community, brotherhood, andlove. And with these words, our
container is open but notbroken. Uh-huh.
Eric Bomyea (56:13):
Uh-huh.
Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go
all in on men's work, embodimentpractice, and personal growth
from our queer perspective. Ifyou haven't already, please be
sure to like, comment, and leaveus a review. And you can also
send us a message with any ofyour questions. We'd love to
answer them in a future episode.Today, we get curious about
moments of irritation.
What if they weren't justannoyances, but invitations to
(00:27):
look deeper at our unmet needs,old programming, and the stories
we've been telling ourselves? AsCarl Jung said, everything that
irritates us about others canlead us to an understanding of
ourselves. Tim, are you ready togo all in? I'm ready. Let's do
this.
So we all experience bigfeelings like frustration,
irritation, annoyance. But doyou think most of us can even
(00:47):
recognize where they're actuallycoming from? And what do you
think irritation is trying toteach us when it shows up in our
lives?
Timothy Bish (00:55):
I think that when we're in a big emotion, it's
really, really hard to have aperspective on it because we're
so wrapped up in it and thesensation of it. So when we
think about anger or irritationor frustration, it is often this
hot, all consuming, fiery sortof quivering kind of, you know,
(01:20):
experience. And that experiencecan be really hard then to pause
and say, I wonder I wonderwhat's happening here. What I
think happens pretty frequentlyis that we can feel very
connected to, I'm mad aboutthat. So whatever the that is.
I'm I'm mad that that person cutme off. I'm mad that that person
(01:41):
is expressing themselves in away that is contrary to what I
think they should do or what Ilike or but the ability to then
go back and think about what thebeginning of this process is is
really tricky in that moment. Soone of the things that we do in
men's work then is recall orlook for patterns and then shine
(02:06):
the light of curiosity onto it.Become curious about, every time
someone cuts me off in traffic,I have a big feeling. I wonder I
wonder what that's about.
And so it would be easy, and Ithink a lot of people do, stop
at, it's about this personcutting me off. The end. And
(02:27):
then what that will do is it'lljust mean that every time
someone cuts you off, you'regonna have a reaction that feels
uncomfortable. And then somelevel, from my perspective, you
lose a little bit of control andcontentment in your life. Or you
could become curious about itand say, I wonder what's really
going on.
And then maybe when you havesome discovery around that, make
(02:49):
a different choice.
Eric Bomyea (02:50):
Absolutely. When a big emotion enters the house,
right, like, they're beyondknocking on the door. They are
now in the house and now it'slike you're confronted with
them. And so it could benefit usover the long term to be like,
Hey, how does this motion, thisbig feeling keep getting in the
house? Like, where did it comefrom?
(03:10):
Right. And getting curious aboutthat so that when we're in
traffic, it's not just thatreoccurring program that's on
loop.
Timothy Bish (03:18):
Well, that's the word. So you just brought it up
then. So this reoccurringprogram that we're running in
our head or some form of beliefthat we have is usually the
beginning of this process. So Ihave a program that's running in
my head. And let's say for thetraffic example, the program is
(03:40):
that not only should people bevery considerate drivers, and
inherent in that is considerateaccording to my definition of
consideration.
Right? Not only should they beconsiderate drivers in the way
that I think considerationshould be demonstrated, I also
don't think that people should,violate my my boundaries in any
(04:01):
way. Then you realize, well,that belief or that program is
the beginning point for yourexperience of this moment. And
then you can start to look at,okay. Well, where did that
belief come from, and and why doI why do I why do I believe it?
And is it serving me?
Eric Bomyea (04:19):
Right. Why do I have it? Did I put it there? Did
somebody else put it there? Didsociety put it there?
And like you just said, is itserving? Getting curious about
it. In that moment of traffic,me getting irritated that
somebody cut me off may serve apurpose. It may serve a little
bit of a recognition that like,oh, my safety was just violated.
(04:40):
Mhmm.
Right? Or like my perception ofmy safety was just violated. And
so it does have its you know, itis a signal, right, that can be
beneficial at some point in ourlives or at points. But then
asking, like, is this alwaysbeneficial?
Timothy Bish (04:56):
Right. Well, and I've had the experience of, I
believe I'm a conscientiousdriver. And I'm
Eric Bomyea (05:04):
in the car with you. You are.
Timothy Bish (05:05):
Thank you. And and I and I group, learning how to
drive in Pittsburgh, which is avery tricky topography. I think
it does make for relativelystrong drivers. And I have had
moments when because ofsomething else, I have cut
someone off. And in that momentthinking, oh, if I could, I
would explain.
I I didn't mean to do suspectyou didn't like it. I could
(05:28):
understand why you don't likeit, but it was unintentional
and, like, here is the reasonwhy I did it or why I had to do
it. So having the awarenessthat, oh, that person's action
or behavior may not beconsistent with my perception of
(05:49):
it. So if every time someonecuts me off, I assume that they
are careless or that they don'tvalue me or my safety or my car
or my autonomy or, you know,whatever. If I'm always making
that assumption, then I might bemissing a real humanity there,
which, oh, that person isactually a great driver who did
not want to do this to me atall.
(06:09):
But it happened anyway becausewe're in traffic and sometimes
that happens.
Eric Bomyea (06:13):
Yeah. And, like, I think the catch here is or the
tricky part is, like, that like,I can I can be in that position
and, like, that reaction isstill gonna come up? Irritation
is still gonna enter my house.Right? It didn't even knock.
It just came in. And so, like,at that point, like, how do I
kind of, like, bring incuriosity about, okay,
(06:34):
irritation, you are here, andnow I would like to very much,
like, bring in some calm or,like, something, like, something
else in to meet you so that Ican now handle this situation,
especially in a in a trickysituation like traffic Yeah.
Right, where I do want to bringmy emotions a little bit more
regulated so that I can maintainfocus?
Timothy Bish (06:54):
Well, I think it's, I think it's dangerous to
try to think about bringing incalm. And we've talked about
calm, right, to be like, calmbecomes a practice. Right? And
instead, I think I think what wemight wanna do is bring in some
perspective. So it is possiblethat the person who just cut you
off is an asshole and that theyjust don't care.
(07:15):
That is that is a possibility.But it's also possible that it's
a totally good person who hasany number of other things
happening, and and thentherefore, maybe would feel less
egregious. Right? Maybe it's amother whose kid in the front
seat is about to throw up. Thisactually happened with me and my
(07:36):
mom where I was she was driving,and I was getting carsick, and
she was trying to put a paperbag in front of me, while drive
you know?
Mhmm. Mhmm. It does not meanthat the person can't say, oh,
like, you should be morecareful.
Eric Bomyea (07:49):
Yeah.
Timothy Bish (07:50):
But it would be, well, am I gonna change my own
mood and my my life experienceright now based on something
like that? So if we know someoneis just being neglectful or
aggressive or dangerous, thenmaybe, yeah, we can have that
reaction. It's not like anyreaction is necessarily bad. But
(08:13):
if the reaction is always thisreally big one, it may be out of
proportion. It may be out ofcontext.
Eric Bomyea (08:20):
Yeah. So I think of when I ride my motorcycle,
right? The saying is ride yourown ride because I cannot afford
to be in my reaction for toolong. Like, other people's
behavior on the road can beconsequential to my life very
quickly. And if somebody cuts meoff, I have very little time to
(08:40):
be in an irritated reaction.
I actually have to, like, coachmyself very quickly to remind
myself this is my ride, I can'tcontrol them, and I have to
focus on me. And so I have tobring tools in to calm myself,
steady myself, or bring in calm,right? So that I'm not in that
reaction. But the reactionhappens. I got cut off in
(09:01):
traffic.
I'm irritated. But if I stay inthat reaction for too long, I
could die. Right? I have to ridemy own ride. I cannot like, even
in that moment, I really can'teven, like, bring in too much of
consideration of, like, whatthat person might be doing.
Right? Like, I I cannot afford.I do not have the luxury of time
to even contemplate, is thisperson a asshole and they do
(09:23):
this all the time? Or is thisperson just trying to to help
their kid?
Timothy Bish (09:26):
Yeah. But you could do that work later.
Eric Bomyea (09:27):
I could do that work later. Yeah.
Timothy Bish (09:28):
We could bring the curiosity to it later. So it's
really about starting tounderstand the patterns that are
operating in our lives andespecially the ones that create
discord, discomfort, andpropensity for possible
explosive or unskillfulengagement. Right? So if I'm
(09:50):
really irritated or very angryabout something, you know, anger
is not necessarily a bad thing,but it's what I do with that
anger. So if I'm if I'm gettingangry a lot, I don't have the
tools to understand how to movethat energy or work with it,
this is when I can start to makebad choices, bad choices that
(10:11):
will have a consequence.
I will tell you, my biologicalfather had a pretty, pretty high
level of road rage and apropensity to want to fight and,
like, be a tough guy. And he onetime, my sister and I were in
the back seat. I must have beensomewhere between six and eight
(10:33):
years old, so she must have beeneight to 10 years old. And he
got into, like, road rage with atractor trailer. And I don't
even know exactly how itstarted, but they were both so
enraged that they they mutuallyagreed to pull off into a
parking lot to have a physicalaltercation.
And so the the truck pulls off.My dad pulls off. My dad gets
(10:58):
out of the car and opens up theback seat where my sister and I
are, like, to grab his little,like, baton thing weapon. And my
sister and I were in hysterics,like, just screaming and crying.
Like, what you know?
And then I think back to thatand be like, oh, you both were
so reactive about what waslikely getting cut off or or
(11:22):
honking more aggressively thansomeone like I can't remember
what it was, but, you know, whatI do know is that chances are it
wasn't it didn't merit thislevel, and they almost had a
fist fight. The reason theydidn't have a fist fight was
because my sister and I becameso hysterical that something
switched in my dad. And he hegot back in the car. Remember he
drove past it. He was like,you're lucky my kids aren't
(11:44):
here, and we drove off.
We were like so so when I tellthat story, in addition to I
want you all to feel badly forme Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea (11:53):
Aw. And sounds like a scary situation.
Timothy Bish (11:55):
No. Was really, really scary. But but you think
about neither of those men werein control. Yeah. They'd given
all their control.
And then what were they gonnado? Commit, either a misdemeanor
or a felony in public for what?Because in the the for what is I
have no idea how to handle thisemotion. I have no context or
tools. And so what matters to menow is feeling stronger than you
(12:18):
Justified.
Justified or righteous.
Eric Bomyea (12:20):
Like there's something that happened to me
and I'm taking it verypersonally, right? And now I
can't rest until I've reclaimedit or I've taken action on it.
And that's a situation that is ascary situation to witness. Also
a scary situation to be in. I'vebeen there.
(12:44):
I've admittedly been there whereI've lost control of my rational
abilities and I'm in that fullreaction. And many times, when I
think about it, it is anger orit's like a really big irritant.
And I'm like, oh, I am alreadyway past the point of no return.
And it takes a long time tobring yourself back down. It
(13:08):
takes a big moment.
Like, my kids are in hystericsto, like, start to snap me out
of it.
Timothy Bish (13:15):
Yeah. My kids are screaming, daddy, daddy, don't
don't do this. Right. Yeah. Andthen so this is when we think
about men's work and when wethink about things like, oh,
we're gonna do a fifteen minuteor a thirty minute chi
generator, or we're gonna gointo a sweat lodge and do a
thing.
And from the outside, you mightthink, well, that's so intense.
(13:35):
Like, what, you know, what isthe purpose? You're like, oh, to
get to these places so we canstart to understand how it feels
and how we are in that feeling.You're like, oh, I'm I'm really
uncomfortable in this moment.What like, how much agency do I
have?
What can I do? And then, youknow, of course, in men's work,
we have we have tools, and wehave guidance, and we have a
(13:57):
container, we have other mensupporting us. And even if we
cross over, as we talked aboutin previous episodes, we cross
over a little bit, we understandwe start to get a clearer idea
of that that edge, that limitfor us because we are working
with it in and around it. Ithink for people who have no
idea where their edge is and howto work with it, people will get
(14:21):
blown past it. And then they'relike, I'm just in unchartered
territory.
I have no idea what to do, sowhat I'm gonna do is fist fight
this 18 wheeler, like, truckdriver in front of my children
because I don't know what elseto do.
Eric Bomyea (14:37):
Yeah. And and, like, that's I'm, like, I'm
trying to, like I'm I'm in acouple different movies right
now. Like Okay. I'm in the movieof, like, the truck driver, your
father, and you as well. I'mlike, wow, there's a lot
happening here to explore.
There's a lot of heightenedemotions. There's a lot of big
emotions happening. And I thinkthat one of the things that I
(15:01):
talked about in the intro isthat may not necessarily Yes,
there could be a default programrunning, but there could also be
an unmet need happening here,right? And how an unmet need
could cause a big emotionalreaction. So I think of you and
your sister.
You've had an unmet need of ofsafety, of assuredness, of
(15:24):
certainty. And because that needis not being met, welcome in big
emotion. Your father, maybethere's an unmet need for
consideration of significance tomatter to be considered, not
being met, and now all of asudden in big emotional
reaction.
Timothy Bish (15:41):
I feel like a lot of it comes from and now beyond
this one example, I feel likeI've witnessed a lot in in my
caregivers, this want or orexpectation of respect. And so
when when that isn't met, a lotof anger and frustration come
(16:04):
up. So I feel like the themajority of the times that I've
watched, specifically straightmen in my life get angry in
these ways, it has been whenthey feel disrespected somehow,
and they don't know how to talkabout that, how to self soothe.
(16:24):
And so just bursts offrustration come out, and
they're probably unaware that,oh, I have a need for
significance, one of the sixcore vet needs. Right?
Significance. I have a need forsignificance that isn't being
met right now, and because ofit, I'm about to blow up in a
(16:45):
way that is unhelpful foreveryone.
Eric Bomyea (16:47):
Yeah. Having a big emotional reaction to an unmet
need. I mean, for me, and that'show I've come to learn about my
own emotions through my owntherapy and through the studying
that I've done of nonviolentcommunication like that is how
emotions arise, right? Bothcomfortable emotions arise
because a need has gone met orunmet. And when we are in a
(17:11):
perpetual state of our needsbecoming unmet, our default
programming starts to becomelike, how do I get this need
met?
And that can come out insideways, shadowy ways that then
results into these programs thatrun because it's the only way
that we know how to get the needmet.
Timothy Bish (17:29):
Well, and I think we have to then talk about the
expectations of needs. Right? Soit isn't just is a need being
met or not being met. It's alsois your perception or
understanding of that needinfluencing it? So, for example,
do I believe I need more respectthan I actually have earned or
(17:51):
or deserve?
Because then I feel like that'sa recipe for disaster. Right? To
be like, oh, I believe for anynumber of reasons, I believe
that I you know, everyone shouldrespect me. And so when I feel
disrespected, that need's notbeing met. But is that is that a
legitimate need?
I don't you know?
Eric Bomyea (18:08):
Well, I may I may to unpack that a little bit, we
might look at it as like, okay.Like, so the story is respect.
Right? I'm I'm not I'm notthinking that I when I tell
myself that somebody doessomething a certain way, I'm
telling myself that I'm notbeing respected. And so I do
have a need to matter.
(18:28):
I do have a need forsignificance. Am I telling
myself that the only way to getthis need met is through this
very specific way? Or can I lookat the need itself and saying,
oh, the kind of big reactionthat I have and the way that I
tell myself that the only way Ican get this need met is to
(18:50):
demand or command respect? Andwhen it doesn't hit this certain
level, then my need isn't beingmet. Well, like, can I get a
little curious a little bit moreabout that?
Bit like, okay. How else can Ifeel significant? You know, in
what ways can I feelsignificant? And starting with
myself, first and foremost, howcan I how can I help myself to
recognize I matter? I'mimportant.
(19:13):
My voice matters. Mhmm. What Ihave to say matters. Like, how
can I start with me first?
Timothy Bish (19:17):
Right. Well, so the but so when you're having
the experience of irritation orany big emotion, we have the
opportunity to become curiousabout what need or needs are not
being met and what stories do Ihave around them. Right? And
just shining the light ofawareness and curiosity onto
(19:38):
those things, I think, isalready the beginning of the
solution. And a softeningaround, oh, my story is this.
Well, is that you know, this wasa thing that we noticed a lot in
the circle, the sharing circlethis week, was this idea of, oh,
that person isn't beingconsiderate. That person isn't
(19:59):
being polite. That person isn't,you know, being diligent. That
person isn't you know? And I wasasking the question, well, is
whose definition of that are wegoing off of?
And and the truth is we're we'realmost always going off of,
well, they're not being diligentin the way I think diligence
should be done. And then withcuriosity, you like, well, maybe
(20:25):
they're being diligent in theirown way. And then the power that
comes from that would be, well,maybe I can have a really
powerful conversation with themto better understand how they
are, who they are, and help thembetter understand what I need or
what is needed in this moment asopposed to jump to a conclusion,
(20:45):
have a big feeling, maybe a badreaction, and chances are either
explosive communication or noneat all, in which case we're
really far away from a solution.Right.
Eric Bomyea (20:55):
Like when we haven't welcomed each other into
our internal environment to letpeople know what it is we have
going on inside of us. Hey, Ihave this thing that's arising
inside of me. And I think rightnow it's because there's a
discrepancy. I'm sensing theremight be a discrepancy in the
(21:16):
way that we perceive diligenceright now. Like, for me, I
believe that people should workin this way, right?
And what I'm noticing in you isthat you might not be working in
that same way, so can we justchat about it for a little bit?
Right? But that's like, to getto that point in an irritated or
reactionary way is reallyfucking hard.
Timothy Bish (21:38):
Well, if you're having the experience of
irritation or the big emotion,then I think it's really tricky,
and it requires someone who hasdone a lot of practice and work
around that. And in my case, Iwould say chances are I would
still be taking deep breaths anddoing some grounding through my
body in order to deliver that.If you're new to it, you might
(22:03):
actually have to wait. You mighthave to take the emotion and go
somewhere else and process it orlet it, you know, make its way
through you before you have thatconversation.
Eric Bomyea (22:16):
And then bringing in some journaling or some sort
of, like, way to process, okay,this thing happened, now I want
to unpack it a little bit withmyself, right? So to get that
curiosity going of like, okay, Ijust had this big reaction. It
was around this specific topic.What happened? Where else in my
(22:36):
life has this maybe come upbefore?
And and starting to say, like,like, what's there?
Timothy Bish (22:43):
Well, it's funny that you're saying this, like,
sort of making me wanna smilebecause you're talking like a
person who does men's work.Right? And so, oh, of course, of
course, you're gonna you'regonna you're already really
curious about it, and you're andyou have these tools and you
know? But I think for the peoplewho are interested in starting
(23:03):
to do this sort of work and takemore control over their lives,
and we have to talk about whyit's important. And why it's
important is because we can begiving a lot of power away, a
lot of valuable power and energyto situations that aren't
serving us.
And so when we talk about beingcurious and then journaling,
(23:26):
these are all just ways of youbetter understanding how it is
you are so that you become awareof your buttons. It's like I I
saw this thing where someone waslike, you know, they they just
keep pushing my buttons. Youknow, what am I supposed to do
when they push my button? Andthe person said, they couldn't
(23:47):
push your button if the buttonwasn't there. So the work is
yours.
Mhmm. And so so in thisconversation, if you're like,
oh, I don't wanna, like,journal. It's like, well, if
you're walking around with abunch of buttons that you
especially if you don't knowthat they're there and then
people keep pushing them and youkeep getting upset, you either
have the option to continuallysort of roll the dice every day
(24:08):
and see if someone pushes abutton or not, or you can take a
look at your buttons and startto gain control over them.
Absolutely. Especially, some ofthe control is, I see someone
getting close to that button.
Maybe I can take action nowthrough through deed, through
word, through, you know,behavior to prevent that from
(24:31):
even happening.
Eric Bomyea (24:32):
Welcome in boundary. Yeah. Like, I'm
starting to see it and I'm goingto create a boundary around
that. But that's, yeah, it's allpretty advanced work. And I
think that it does, it takesthat awakening almost of like,
yeah, I do not want to walkaround just covered in a bunch
of buttons that that literallysay, push me, push me, push me.
(24:55):
Right? Like Yeah.
Timothy Bish (24:56):
Well, and I think I think it's important to
remember. So the big feelingsand emotions or experiences are,
I think, one sign that we shouldbe curious. But another one is
and I wanna be careful becausesometimes sometimes I guess this
isn't always bad. But when youare so certain that you're
(25:17):
right, to me, that's anopportunity to be like, are are
there really any other vantagepoints from which I could view
this scenario? Now there aretimes when I I am right, like,
you know, and I think we've allhad that, like, I understand
what's happening and, you know,justifiable anger is totally
(25:37):
allowed.
But the idea that could Iconsider this from a variety of
other perspectives and just thatconsideration can start to
shift. What if what if theydidn't mean to be a jerk? What
if they didn't mean to beneglectful?
Eric Bomyea (25:53):
Yeah. And the the fine line here between, like,
justifiable anger and anddignance, right, like, being so
rooted in something that you'relike, I'm not gonna change.
Like, I'm gonna like, I am soirritated. I'm so big in my
emotion. I am just, like,indignant now.
Yeah. Right? Like, try to changeme.
Timothy Bish (26:09):
Right. Right. Like, I know what's right, and
I'm like, don't try to change mymind.
Eric Bomyea (26:13):
That's right. You know?
Timothy Bish (26:15):
Which can be done, but then often it's like, well,
then you're kind of constantlyin a conflict. Mhmm. There's
there is constantly a good guy,bad guy in that. Because if
you're right, then someone elsehas gotta be wrong. And, you
know, we live in a world wheresometimes people are right and
sometimes people are wrong, buthow happy are they?
(26:36):
How content are they? Because,ultimately, some of these things
aren't that important. So goingback to someone cuts you off in
traffic, assuming no one is in,like, danger, it's really not
that big a deal.
Eric Bomyea (26:53):
Right. Like, that's I go back to the motorcycle
example. It's not that big of adeal why that person cut me off.
What's the biggest deal? Savingmy life.
Like, being in my own ride. Is
Timothy Bish (27:02):
everyone okay?
Eric Bomyea (27:02):
Is everyone okay? Yeah. Right? Like, what is my
next step? Right?
What is the action that I take?Because the the the longer that
I sit in rumination, the lesschances that I have to make,
like, healthy strategicdecisions for my best interest.
If I'm just stuck there, like,in indignance, in I need to be
(27:25):
right, I need to prove that thisperson was an asshole for
cutting me off, the less timethat I have to make a wise
decision for myself. That'sright. Like, have that is taking
my power back.
Right? The more that I sit inrumination, I'm now giving that
person power. My power is I'mcoming back to me. I can't
(27:48):
control what just happened, butI can control what I do next.
Timothy Bish (27:52):
Well, it's the let them theory. Mhmm. Yeah. So No.
Go ahead.
Eric Bomyea (27:57):
I was gonna say, Mel Robbins, if you're
listening, for whatever chanceyou're listening, please come on
the podcast. We love you.
Timothy Bish (28:02):
Yeah. We love you. Please join us. No. But it's
it's really it's really, reallysmart.
Right? The and the Let ThemTheory really quickly, it
doesn't it doesn't allow for badbehavior, but it really focuses
on what can what can I do? Andthat's really where our power
lies. When when I when I stopfocusing on what you did or
(28:23):
didn't do that I like or dislikeand I start focusing on what I'm
doing, I've just taken aback anenormous amount of my power.
Eric Bomyea (28:31):
And it like, that can be really scary. Like, I've
been in those situations where,like, I'm scared to take back my
power because of theconsequences that I'm I'm
manufacturing in my head. I'mafraid to stand up for myself.
I'm afraid to say the thing. I'mafraid to acknowledge the
(28:52):
emotion.
And I just want to stay in thatreaction. Sometimes it could be
something like, I can just feelso safe there. And then it's
like, oh, if take an actionright now, that could have a
consequence. And am I ready forthe consequence? Am I ready to
take back my power and what thatcould mean?
(29:12):
Am I ready, like, for that?
Timothy Bish (29:14):
Yeah. I mean, it can be really, really scary. And
also, if you think about thealternative, the alternative is
betraying yourself a little or alot in service to a little bit
of comfort. It's funny. I sawsomething that on, I guess, on
Instagram.
(29:34):
How do you know that you're onthe right path? And the person's
response was, you know when youstop betraying yourself or you
stop be being put in situationswhere you are being asked to
betray yourself, and insteadyou're just able to live, you
know, in integrity. So it is apractice. I mean, I think we
(29:56):
have to remember that it isn't alight switch where we decide,
oh, I'm gonna you know, eachsituation's gonna come up with
its challenges, and chances arewe're gonna struggle. And I had
something recently where I hadto think.
I'm like, oh, this is risky forme to speak my truth. But I was
(30:18):
thinking about the person thatis I'm trying to be and who I'm
trying to step into. And I said,well, that person would would
compassionately speak his mindhere. And so I did it, and it
was really scary, and it mighthave had consequences. But I
think that's the risk we have totake.
Eric Bomyea (30:38):
Step into the full into the fullness. And we've
talked about integrity. We hadan episode on integrity. But I
think, especially around thistopic, I think it deserves a
little bit more exploration.Being in integrity with
ourselves and with others andhow that when we are out of
(31:01):
integrity with ourselves orothers, how that can also create
big reactions.
Right? Because you said, like,there's this energy leakage
that's happening and giving thepower, so can we just stay with
that for a
Timothy Bish (31:13):
little Well, you know, the thing about integrity
is that we will I think we canoften think of it as I'm in
integrity or I'm not. But itactually becomes this, ebbing
and flowing thing where I cansay I'm gonna do something. So
integrity is upholding thecommitments we make to
(31:34):
ourselves, upholding thecommitments we make to others,
living living congruent with ourstated purpose, those sorts of
things. Right? And so I can saythat I'm gonna do something and
mean it.
And then some unknown things canpop up, and that can change. And
(31:55):
so the practice of integritythen is, hey. Listen. I told you
I was gonna have this done byThursday, and now it turns out.
And the the thing about so thepractice of integrity is
recognizing, so this is when,like, out of integrity.
Like, recognizing when thatisn't necessarily gonna be able
to come to fruition and thenclaiming it and then making a
(32:16):
new commitment around it, to me,is also integrity. So integrity
isn't, I said this, so I have todo it at all costs. Integrity
can be, I recognize I made acommitment that I legitimately
thought I could do, and now Irecognize something has shifted,
and I need to make a newcommitment with conscious
communication around it. To me,that is still integrity.
Eric Bomyea (32:39):
And that that can happen internally and
externally. Right? That thatdialogue can happen with
ourselves. Like I made thiscommitment to myself or I said
that this is how I want to beand something has popped up. And
so I'm going to have thisdialogue with myself and kind of
renegotiate with myself or atleast come up with an
alternative that still feelswithin something that I can
(33:00):
achieve and something that feelsgood for me or good within me.
Right. And then also how we dothat externally as well.
Timothy Bish (33:06):
And then the the trick there is that you don't
allow that ebbing and flowing ofthe process of integrity to let
you off the hook. Mhmm. You haveto be really in integrity, you
have to be really honest withyourself about, am I am I
responding to a thing that isoccurring and honoring what is,
(33:28):
or am I letting myself off thehook because I'm tired or I'm
lazy or I don't want to? Andthat's a powerful distinction.
Eric Bomyea (33:37):
Yeah. Acknowledging those truths about ourselves and
being able to recognize them andtalk about them and communicate
them. Yeah. Then, so stayingwith that for a second, like
connecting it back to our topictoday of like big reactions or
big emotions, like how can beingout of integrity like, maybe
(33:58):
lead to some of these bigemotions or these big reactions?
Timothy Bish (34:02):
Well, I mean, I think the one of the main ways
would be when someone is out ofintegrity I'll speak for myself.
When I'm out of integrity, Ifeel disempowered. When I feel
disempowered, I'm moresusceptible to then feeling like
a need isn't being met orrelying heavily on these stories
(34:24):
that I have or programs I haverunning in my head about the way
things should be so that if itdoesn't go that way, I'm
susceptible to breakdown orexplosion. Whereas when I'm in
integrity, there's agroundedness to that. Like, oh,
I said I was gonna do this.
(34:44):
I'm doing it. I said I was gonnado that, and I did it. And,
like, I said I was gonna and Ithere's a strength in that. And
it's, you know, it's, CarolynMay says, like, that's how we
build self esteem. We uphold thecommitments we make to
ourselves.
And when you do that, you walkaround more grounded, less
(35:05):
shakable.
Eric Bomyea (35:06):
Yeah. It's like the more that we can commit to
ourselves and the way that wewant to be, the way that we want
to engage in the world, morefrequently we uphold that. Yeah,
like I'm still working on it.I'm definitely still working on
it on daily basis. And I canalready tell, like, as I come
(35:30):
more into integrity with myselfand I understand the man that I
want to be.
And that's key too is that,like, being in integrity is
going be different for everyperson. We're all going to have
a little bit of a different wayof looking at it. And it's a
very personal thing. Like, whatdoes it mean for me? Who's the
man that I want to be?
Who's this person that I want tobe in the world? And what are
(35:51):
the actions and decisions andbehaviors that I'm exhibiting
that get me closest to that sothat I can be a little bit more
grounded in my everyday.
Timothy Bish (36:03):
Well, this is why when we start to practice
integrity with other, it becomesimportant then to communicate
what integrity means to me andwhat it means to them. Mhmm. So
that I can start to have aclearer idea of, well, how if I
make a commitment to thatperson, what what are they
(36:23):
expecting, and what can I say ordo to either meet that
expectation or to let them knowthat I'm going to meet it in a
different way? And it becomesconscious conversation.
Eric Bomyea (36:35):
Yeah. And and creating that that
interdependence between twopeople. And it's like, Oh, we
both have our best interest atheart and each other's best
interest at heart. And we'rejust trying to help each other
meet needs when we can andhopefully not get to big
(36:59):
reactions as frequently.
Timothy Bish (37:01):
Yeah. Yeah. I think we can all agree that when
we're in a big emotion or a bigreaction, specifically when they
are negative or uncomfortable,we're not we're probably not
having a lot of fun. We'reprobably not at ease. We're
probably not grounded, and wewould like to minimize that
(37:22):
experience.
So this is why this work is soimportant because I feel like
minimizing this experience isn'tstanding at a craps table and
hoping for a good roll of thedice. Right? Minimizing the
experience is creating thecauses for what we wanna see in
the world. So we you know,you're a gardener and you want
(37:46):
tomatoes. Well, then you betterplant tomato seeds and then tend
tomato seeds the way tomatoseeds need to be tended.
So this is sort of like a like athing about karma now. We we can
take conscious actions to helpus avoid these situations, and
that one of those actions isshine the light of awareness and
curiosity on the the patterns inyour life where you end up
(38:10):
feeling these things mostfrequently. So whether it's the
person who cut you off, in thecar, whether it's the person who
talks over you, you know, inconversation, whatever the thing
is, you have to first look atwhat is operating in you. And
then, you know, the consciousman can bring conscious
(38:32):
conversation. At some point,when when you feel grounded and
steady enough, you could say tothat person who keeps talking
over you, oh, I think MelRobbins just talked about this.
You can say something to them ina respectful but strong way, But
you're that's gonna be nearlyimpossible if you are mired in
your own reaction. If you're soangry or hurt or upset or sad or
(38:56):
whatever, it is almost certainlynot gonna come out powerfully.
It's gonna come out sideways orlacking a certain amount of
skill.
Eric Bomyea (39:05):
Right. The the dagger is going be very much
pointed out. Right? It's like,I'm I'm trying to come at you.
Right?
And justify it or whatever itmight be versus saying, okay,
can I bring compassion? Can Ibring empathy first and foremost
for myself? There's somethinghappening. Coming inward, coming
(39:28):
inward, coming inward, what ishappening? Why am I reacting
this way?
And then being able to say,okay, what is it that I may be
needing in this moment? And thenbeing able to bring that into
conversation and put in arequest to somebody or create a
boundary around it ascompassionately as can be
(39:51):
possible in that moment. Yeah. Iwant to go back to needs because
I think we have a lot of, like,circles happening. We have
needs, we have judgment, we haveemotions, we have big reactions,
we have, like, a lot of thingskind of swirling around.
(40:13):
And I think one of the thingsthat I've noticed most in the
men's groups that I've been apart of is this challenge to
articulate needs, to actuallycommunicate what is it that we
are needing in any given moment.And I'm curious for you, like,
why do you think that is? Why doyou think men, in particular,
(40:36):
have such a hard timecommunicating what it is that
they need?
Timothy Bish (40:39):
Because I think communicating a need is
recognizing a vulnerability. AndI think that we grew up in a
time when, like, most of ourheroes don't like, the images, I
don't really need anything. I'vealready got everything I need,
and I'm I'm in charge, and Iknow what to do, and I'm gonna
(41:03):
find the solution. And that isthis thing we're all striving
for, I think many of us arestriving for. So if I were to
come up to you and say, Irecognize that I have a need for
I'm gonna speak I'm gonna selfdisclose everyone who's
watching.
Like, I I need to feelsignificant because, you know,
(41:24):
when I was a kid, I didn't. Sojust admitting that is a
vulnerability. Right? And thenso if someone if some
manipulative, like, angry, like,evil cat stroking, like, villain
in my life wanted to, they couldcreate scenarios in which I
didn't feel significant if theyyou know? So I have to I have to
recognize that it exists.
(41:45):
I have to own that I that I needit, which then is letting you
know there's a vulnerabilityhere. And then I would have to
have some vocabulary around howto say it and how to and how to
ask for it. Right? So the needfor significance can, as an
(42:06):
example, look very different fordifferent people. And, you know,
love languages, like, one of thethings words of affirmation are
is one of my love languages.
Right? So when I want to feelsignificant or when I want
someone to reassure me that I amsignificant to them, I'm often
wanting it in one way. Thatisn't necessarily so then we
(42:30):
would have to kind of know,well, how how do I even accept
this need? What would I even askfor? What do have to be aware
of?
Like, oh, if you could if youcould just remind me from time
to time that, like, I matter toyou. Or someone else doesn't
want that at all. They want theywant to, they want you to make
them dinner. And, like sosatisfying the same need, but
(42:53):
coming in a different way. So itrequires an understanding of
self.
There is a need. I'm willing toclaim that need, and then I'm
I'm aware of myself enough toknow the ways in which that need
can be satisfied for me, andthen I can communicate that to
the people I need to communicateit to. So that's a lot of stuff
(43:15):
if you haven't if you haven'tever done it.
Eric Bomyea (43:17):
Right. And sometimes it's like like the the
vocabulary may not be there, butthe bodily sensation might be.
Timothy Bish (43:25):
The loneliness, the emptiness, is that what you
mean?
Eric Bomyea (43:27):
Yeah. And how does a big reaction, right? Like when
I'm feeling insignificant,right? And I'm starting to feel
like I don't matter to people,what starts to come up is anger.
I get angry.
Then I sometimes get a littlebitey. And sometimes I can be
(43:51):
accusatory. And sometimes I canstart to say things that can be
hurtful or misconstrued as a wayof like I'm trying to attack
somebody. And so that's what I'mcurious about, right? Is that
like, you know, on your journeyof understanding that you have
this specific need and one ofthe ways in which you can get
(44:13):
that need met is through a lovelanguage of yours, words of
affirmation, and the ability torequest that of people to help
you meet that need.
Like, the curiosity is, like,before you had that, right, what
were some of the things that mayhave been happening, you know?
Timothy Bish (44:30):
Yeah. I think I would have a big feeling, and I
would have a story around thatfeeling, and then would get
angry, and oftentimes that angrywould be some version of silent
punishment. Right? It would be,I'm gonna withdraw. I'm gonna
(44:55):
become nonresponsive.
And, obviously, people do thatwith the hope of, well, I hope
you notice that I'm not thereanymore. I hope that, like, you
start to recognize theimportance that I had because
now you're missing it and, youknow, And then and then I had I
(45:18):
had the experience in my life afew times where I remember
thinking, oh, I was mad at thatperson for doing this thing, and
now I'm doing a similar thing ina different situation, it didn't
necessarily mean if it like, ifwhat they were doing is what I
(45:41):
am doing, then it didn't meanwhat I thought it meant. So
there are, again, someperspective on when I'm certain
it means exactly what I think itmeans, I'm probably in a danger
zone. Because if we're dealingwith another person, there's a
high probability that they havea different perspective of the
(46:03):
same thing. So, you know, VastuSamyajitabhata Thayaurabhavakta
Pantaha, the yogic teaching ofemptiness.
You know, the object being thesame, but the mind stuff being
different. The perceiver willproject onto that object the
content of its mind. And so wecan say with a lot of certainty,
chances are we we're having adifferent experience of this
(46:26):
thing, and that is a powerfulmoment. So maybe they're, you
know, maybe they're not doingthis the the thing your story is
telling them. Well, I used toget really attached to this is
what it would mean for me, so itmust mean that for you.
And the truth is, like, a lot oftimes, if I had done the thing
that they were doing, it mighthave meant that for me. It
(46:47):
almost certainly would havemeant that for me. That does not
mean that it meant that forthem.
Eric Bomyea (46:51):
Thank you very much for letting me in. We got there.
We got there. And I just I'mvery appreciative. And I think
it's your work that you've doneis incredible.
When I talk to you and I see howmuch and I experience how much
(47:11):
awareness you bring intoconversation and the way that
you engage, I find it reallyadmirable.
Timothy Bish (47:18):
Wow, thank you. And
Eric Bomyea (47:20):
that's where my intention came from with that
exploration was like justwanting to see kind of what the
journey was like and bring thatout to help others see as well
that, like, you know, this is ajourney. It does take time and,
(47:43):
like, there is components. Goahead.
Timothy Bish (47:45):
Yeah. So in my, you know, my childhood, was no
permission for big emotionsgenerally from from children,
unless we were, like, very sador if we were hurt. Otherwise,
we were supposed to just begrateful, and so there was no
room for anger, irritation,frustration, edges, any of that
(48:09):
kind of, you know, stuff. And soI got really adept at kind of
pushing down and ignoring. Ithink a lot of people can relate
to that.
Right? Because I think very fewof us were modeled, oh, you're
having a big emotion right now.You know, that must be
uncomfortable. And, like, thatkind of So so it takes a lot of
(48:30):
practice to start to undo that.So, you know, you then suddenly,
I'm in New York City at 18 or 19years old without having
practiced any of these things,and I'm trying to navigate adult
relationships, and I amcompletely incapable of asking
like, recognizing what my needsare, asking to have them met,
(48:52):
trusting that someone can meetthem, having vocabulary to
articulate them, all these sortof things.
And so it took, what, twenty sixyears more to find language and
the confidence to speak it andsay you know? And then and then
also, I think what's reallyimportant about this is that
when you've like, when you havea need and it comes out
(49:15):
unskillfully, then you're you'remet with that same sort of
energy. So then you're also sortof incentivized to be like, oh,
well, it just came out sideways.I because I don't know how to
say it skillfully, and so nowthat person's mad at me. And
then you might get the message,well, then you shouldn't say
things like that because thenpeople get mad at you.
Mhmm. And then it incentivizesyou to keep it bottled up more.
And, again, so why is men's workimportant? Because we create
(49:38):
communities in which theseconversations are the norm. And
the understanding is that we canhave a tough conversation, even
a sharpening conversation,something that is directive.
As long as it has heart, we canhave the conversation. It can be
uncomfortable, and ourrelationship isn't gonna crumble
because of it. And I thinkthat's the thing that's really
(50:01):
missing in a lot of parts of theworld and interactions is that
trust. I I can be irritated withyou and still love you. Yeah.
I can be I can dislike somethingthat you did but still value you
deeply in my life. And and Ihave a skill set to bring it to
(50:23):
you so that you become aware ofit. You learn more about me. I
learn more about you. And withthe trust that it isn't gonna
blow up our relationship becauseI'm coming with a lot of heart.
So that's why this concept inmen's work of sacred dick, you
know, that that guy, it's likelike, he comes sharply and calls
out the thing, but he does itwith a lot of heart. Without the
(50:44):
heart, you're just an asshole.But with the heart, you're
you're the catalyst for growth.You are the sacred dick, not
just a dick. And and it's reallypowerful.
And when we step into that, youknow, steel sharpened steel,
that's why we do men's work. I'mgonna reflect back what
happened, and it'suncomfortable. It's really
(51:07):
uncomfortable, but it alsopasses quickly. And then we're
better and stronger on the otherside because
Eric Bomyea (51:15):
of it. And what it inspires from there. Right?
Like, you being a strong man inmy life has inspired me, and I
trust that it has inspired manyothers. Actually, I know this.
I've been told this many times.It is an inspiration to see a
(51:35):
man who has done and is doingthat is an ongoing thing, the
work, and who shows up sopowerfully in engagement and is
willing to get a littleuncomfortable with a lot of
heart. And it it does like, itinspires. So very appreciative
(51:55):
and grateful for that.
Timothy Bish (51:56):
Well, I mean, I'm appreciative. Thank you for that
reflection. That's really sweet.But also, I'm appreciative for
this work and for the for theteachers and leaders who have
come before us. Right?
So in the men's workspace, youknow, Amir Kalighi, Zappa Raka,
John Weineland, David Data. Youknow? And but then also in the
lineages of, like, these yogicand shamanic, you know,
(52:18):
practices to help us create thisbecause it is mutually
beneficial. We all really we allreally need it. And I think I
think when I was a kid, Ithought every conflict could
potentially derail all therelationships that matter to me.
And so then I had to start tocontort myself and and betray
(52:41):
myself in in pursuit of makingsure that the thing I needed
didn't fly away, whether, youknow, my mom or, you know,
someone to care for me orwhatever. And this work
encourages us to show up asfully as we can and and and meet
people with that and be met bythat. And that to me is healing
(53:03):
salve that our world needs nowso much. We need it so much
because the alternative arethese blustery signs of
inauthentic power that weunfortunately have a lot of
examples of currently right now.I'm gonna I'm gonna flare up.
I'm gonna pound my chest. I'mgonna, you know, snarl and show
(53:25):
bare my teeth and, you know, asopposed to I'm gonna show up and
tell you, I really didn't likethat. Can we have a conversation
about this? That is power. Sowhen we talk about men's work,
we're talking about real power.
Power about power aboutinfluencing your life so that
you are more authentic, you aremore content, you have deeper,
more meaningful connections, andconnections that you can trust.
(53:49):
Trustable connections.
Eric Bomyea (53:53):
Beautifully said, trustable connections that can
be resistance to when it is sotempting to betray ourselves or
betray others, And staying inintegrity, to be stable and be
in integrity to avoid the selfbetrayals or the betrayals to
(54:15):
others so that we can lead withheart. And it's a journey, it's
a road, a long road to getthere. I think though that the
things that we talked abouttoday are important steps
towards that. Recognizing thatbig emotions, they do happen.
(54:37):
They're not going anywhere.
They're not going anywhere.Yeah. Asking ourselves though,
does it need to be this big?Does it need to be this
frequent? Is this serving me?
If no, okay. Why might I begetting into this scenario over
and over again? Why might thisbig reaction be happening over
and over again at this scale, atconsistency? And then digging a
(55:04):
little bit deeper. Okay.
Like, I see the program. I seewhat's happening here. Is there
something else? Is there anunmet need here? Is there
something that I'm out ofintegrity with and really
starting to sharpen ourselves sothat we can be the most full
part of ourselves or the fullestthat we can be out into the
(55:27):
world to then love and lead withthe heart and sharpness
sometimes with heart.
I'm feeling very complete withthis episode. How are you
feeling? I feel complete aswell. Alright. Well, thank you
very much for your insights andsharing all of your experience
(55:50):
with us today.
Appreciate it. Can you take usout, please?
Timothy Bish (55:53):
Yes. So as we leave this sacred circle of
exploration, awareness, insight,I wish everyone safety,
community, brotherhood, andlove. And with these words, our
container is open but notbroken. Uh-huh.
Eric Bomyea (56:13):
Uh-huh.
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