July 18, 2024 • 24 mins
What does it take to measure circularity and improve our global sustainability efforts? In this episode, we speak with Heidi Frasure, head of Sustainability at Green Standards, who shares actionable insights into her company's pioneering circular business model. Learn how Green Standards sustainably manages decommissioned office materials on a global scale and the significant role of systems thinking and design thinking in addressing environmental and social impacts in procurement and workplaces.
Discover why focusing solely on carbon emissions is not enough and how avoiding "carbon tunnel vision" can lead to more comprehensive and effective sustainability strategies. We uncover the underappreciated impact of interior furnishings on a building's carbon footprint, and examine the unique measures Green Standards uses to track the community benefits of repurposed office assets, including in-kind donations and beneficiary stories. Transparency is key, as we discuss how clients utilize data for impact reporting, marketing, and enhancing employee engagement and retention.
Finally, we highlight the importance of an iterative approach within systems thinking, using practical tools like Excel for small organizations and emphasizing the need for action-oriented strategies. Explore the ethical dimensions of supply chains and the human element in circularity, focusing on fair practices and employee treatment. Join us as we call on leaders to drive sustainability initiatives within their companies, promoting collaboration and smart policy to create truly circular workplaces.
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Want to be a guest on The Circular Future podcast? Email Sanjay Trivedi at strivedi@quantumlifecycle.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stephanie McLarty (00:03):
The Circularity Gap Report recently
concluded that the world becameless circular in 2023, down to
only 7.2% from the 2018 baselineof 9.1%.
This begs a lot of questions,firstly, on how we all measure
circularity and, secondly, howdo we increase those numbers?
(00:25):
On how we all measurecircularity and, secondly, how
do we increase those numbers.
Welcome to the circular futureyour access to thought leaders
and innovations to help you be abusiness sustainability
champion, even if it's not yourcore job.
I'm your host.
Stephanie McLarty, head ofSustainability at Quantum
Lifecycle Partners.
Hey, nothing like starting offwith some dismal news, but, as
(00:45):
legend Peter Drucker said, youcan't manage what you can't
measure.
And some positive news in allof this.
That same report said thecircular economy has reached
mega trend status, with threetimes the volume of discussions,
debates and articles over thesame period.
With me to understand how wecan all measure circularity and
(01:08):
take meaningful action is HeidiFraser, head of Sustainability
at Green Standards, asustainable office
decommissioning company.
Heidi has worked insustainability for over 17 years
, including seven years ofpioneering work as a circular
economy leader for the world'slargest office furniture
manufacturer, steelcase.
Welcome to the podcast, heidi.
Heidi Frasure (01:28):
Hi, stephanie, super excited to be here with
you today.
Stephanie McLarty (01:31):
I'm super excited that you're here, Heidi,
Now.
We always start off by taking apeek into your world.
So, Heidi, what would be threethings that the world wouldn't
know about Green Standards?
Heidi Frasure (01:43):
Yeah.
So I guess maybe the first oneis that we are a circular
business model.
So by our very nature of whatwe do, we're helping to
recirculate furniture, fixtures,all of the interiors inside the
building.
We usually say, if you dump abuilding out and shake it, we
help manage all the stuff thatcomes out of that building in an
ethical and sustainable wayFinding reuse, relocation,
(02:07):
donation partners and recyclingpartners to keep those materials
out of landfill.
And so I think that'd be thefirst one that we exist as a
circular business model, andwe've been around for 15 years.
We're not new to this game.
Second one, I think, is thatthis work is not easy.
It's very challenging, but noone quite does it the way that
(02:27):
we do, because we help findend-to-end processes and
services for the client.
So we're actually connectingall of those assets to an end
user, either through donationpathway, a reuse pathway or
recycling pathway.
And so we're seeing it throughto from inception to completion,
which I think makes us unique.
And so we're seeing it throughto from inception to completion,
which I think makes us unique.
And then we're able to giveclients back reporting, so high
(02:52):
level reporting on landfilldiversion, carbon saved and
in-kind donation dollars.
And then I think the thirdpiece is that we're global.
So again, I think, from acircular business model, it's
really rare to find circularbusinesses or circular models at
scale and we are doing thiswork at scale on a global level.
And so I think that's probablythe last piece.
Stephanie McLarty (03:15):
That kind of wraps that up appropriate that
you yourselves work at thatscale as well.
Now, heidi, the more I'velearned about your background,
the more I've seen it's likeyour background has been a
mirror of the whole industryitself.
So can we first actually diveinto that a little bit Like how
(03:35):
did you get to where you are now?
Heidi Frasure (03:37):
Yeah, I have a really weird background and I
guess that's for any listenerswho you know don't have a
traditional sustainabilitydegree.
I think you don't have to.
I had a really fluid path.
My background or my originalstudy was in the sciences, earth
sciences, watershed science tobe specific.
But yeah, I started my careerreally cleaning up messes from
(03:58):
the past, so doing nuclear wastesite cleanup and then oil and
gas spill I worked on thelargest oil spill onshore in US
history and so cleaning up thosemesses and the waste so it's
kind of like the end of lifereally was the beginning of my
career.
I realized how important it wasfor businesses to do the right
(04:19):
thing in the first place.
And those downstream costs arevery expensive and it occurred
to me as I was doing some ofthat cleanup work I was actually
paying for some of those costsright in my tax dollars.
So I think it just reallyoccurred to me that if I could
get into businesses and helpkind of corrupt from within for
the good and help shift theirthinking to start doing the
(04:43):
right thing now, it can reallyhelp improve that downstream
process.
And so I started working on thebusiness side of things, spent
seven years of my career doingcircular economy work at
Steelcase, where it was all theway from the design of products
through their production process, all the way to end of life,
helping to make those processesmore circular.
And I really got engaged withGreen Standards back in 2020
(05:07):
when clients needed end of lifesolutions and at the time we
didn't have a solution providerfor that and so built up a
relationship with GreenStandards and it was really kind
of an easy transition to kindof come on board with them,
because at Green Standardswhat's good for our business is
innately good for theenvironment and for our local
communities, and so it's beenreally fun to be on this side of
(05:30):
things.
I've built my career off ofdoing what's right and now I'm
working for a company where it'sjust the right thing to do.
Stephanie McLarty (05:37):
So I love that you've built your career
off of doing what's right, andtoday we're going to talk about
measuring circularity and how totake action against that, and
you mentioned in the earlierpart of your career around
cleaning up messes, so I thinkthere's sometimes a
misconception around doing theright thing can often be costly,
(05:59):
so let's talk about financialmeasures.
Can often be costly.
So let's talk about financialmeasures.
What are some of the costsassociated with?
Heidi Frasure (06:06):
perhaps doing the wrong thing.
Yeah, so there's a lot of costs, right?
So there I think, what in ourindustry?
Oftentimes when a client isgoing through a fit out or a
strip out meaning they're eitherputting interiors in a building
or they're stripping thoseinteriors out of the building
there's waste associated withthat.
There's also labor andlogistics costs associated with
that.
Those materials have to eitherbe pulled out or stripped out,
(06:30):
and so that all has a costassociated with it.
We've actually just recentlyrun some numbers to see you know
what would our costs be incomparison to and we didn't even
use worst case scenario, whichwould be going to landfill we
used a better case scenario of aclient potentially using a
(06:50):
brokerage to sell the bestquality products that still have
value, and it was still 10%less to use our services.
So I think, ultimately,customers don't have a really
good understanding what thatstrip out phase looks like, and
so they often just assume thatit's very expensive to do the
right thing and assume thatlandfill is cheaper.
But you know, as disposal costsrise, that's not always going
(07:11):
to be the case, and I thinkwe've seen firsthand that that's
not the case for clients.
I think that you know.
To your second question whatother measures?
There's social and there'senvironmental costs that should
always be considered.
I don't think return oninvestment equations should only
be focused on financials.
I think they also have toconsider what those social and
environmental impacts are, and Iknow that can be challenging to
(07:32):
do, but there's all sorts ofdata now on the cost of carbon
that could be used and leveragedand there's also, you know,
your local community impactsthat you should consider.
I know, historically speaking,a lot of the waste sites that I
was doing cleanup work for wereactual landfills where they had
leakage leachate.
So going to landfill isn'tnecessarily the most
(07:55):
environmental from a long termperspective.
A lot of times those landfillshave long term impacts and costs
associated with them.
Stephanie McLarty (08:02):
Absolutely, and we see that with electronics
as well.
So I wanted to ask you a bitmore about carbon, specifically,
because I feel like a lot ofcompanies focus on carbon and
sometimes focus only on carbon,given it's the measure of our
time, it seems.
But there can be a bit of adanger in just looking at carbon
.
Walk us through that.
(08:23):
What are some of the downsidesof only focusing on carbon?
Heidi Frasure (08:26):
Yeah, maybe the easiest way to kind of look at
this is if you're only lookingat end of life and you're using,
let's say, the warm emissionsfactors which are widely used
for end of life disposal carbonemissions calculations, and if
you just look at aluminum, youcan really see this kind of
shine through where, if you'reonly using that lens, carbon as
(08:49):
the measure for aluminum, youmight make the wrong decision
and put it in landfill, becausethe emissions factor to going to
landfill for aluminum isactually almost 200% less than
if you're going to recycling,and so that's kind of
mind-boggling right, because wefor aluminum is actually almost
200% less than if you're goingto recycling, and so that's kind
of mind boggling right, becausewe know aluminum is highly
recyclable.
In fact it can have 95% lessembodied carbon emissions to use
(09:12):
recycled aluminum than versusvirgin, and so we know that it's
the right thing to do torecycle aluminum.
But if you're only lookingthrough a carbon lens and you're
only looking at end of life,you might make that wrong
decision.
So I think it's just importantto kind of take a step back and
understand that what we'retalking about here is systems
work.
It requires systems thinkingand design thinking.
(09:34):
It requires iterativeapproaches and sometimes, to
just oversimplify it, itrequires common sense.
I think to take a step back andjust look at things from a
common sense perspective isusually the best approach.
In my past I liked, looking atmaterial flow analyses to say,
okay, what is actually happeninghere From a procurement
(09:55):
perspective?
What are our procurement peopledoing?
How are they sourcing thesematerials?
What are those social andenvironmental impacts?
What are the costs?
Are there any cost savings?
And then you can kind of gothrough that entire flow,
process flow and seeopportunities for improvement in
each one of those phases.
And it should be fairly commonsense, Like it should be fairly
(10:15):
easy to do that, and I thinkthat's probably a better
approach.
I think carbon is absolutelyimportant and it's not going
away and I'm not saying thatit's bad.
I think it's great that weactually have a measure, but I
think it can't be the onlymeasure, because it can
potentially push us down wrongpathways if we're only looking
at it through that lens.
Stephanie McLarty (10:37):
I heard the term carbon tunnel vision, where
you basically put blinders onlike a horse and you look only
at this factor of carbon.
But how limiting it can be whenthere's so many other aspects,
especially when we talk aboutcircularity.
And I want to get into anexample of this because I feel
(10:58):
it makes it more real when youcan think about a tangible
example of this.
Because I feel it makes it morereal when you can think about a
tangible example, and I knowthat at Green Standards you
focus on circular workplaces andspecifically helping around the
decommissioning and shaking outthe contents of an office
during a move or a major change.
So if you focus on furnitureand fixtures, let's start with
(11:18):
carbon.
How much do furniture andfixtures contribute?
Let's start with carbon.
How much do furniture andfixtures contribute from a
carbon perspective?
So super good question.
Heidi Frasure (11:26):
There's not a lot of research on this.
There's a ton of research onconstruction and demolition
waste and the emissionsassociated with that, and we
know the built environmentaccounts for 40% of global
emissions, so we know it has ahuge impact.
But there's not a ton of studiesfull lifecycle analysis of the
building and the interiors ofthe building until recently.
(11:46):
And so there's actually a studythat hasn't been published yet
but by Brightworks that I'mreally excited about, that is
showing, you know, the interiorsof an office building actually
have a large embodied carbonfootprint, and it's estimating
the interiors from furniture andthat includes, like wall
coverings, flooring, ceiling,tiles, all of the interiors.
(12:07):
It almost accounts for 50% ofthe embodied carbon of that
building.
So that's an important factor,I think, to consider, and as we
get more and more data like that, we might be able to kind of
reframe some of our thinkingaround the interior waste.
Right now, I think a lot oftimes, like I said, in those
strip out phases, the waste fromthe strip out is an untracked,
(12:29):
unmeasured and unseen issue, andso I think I'm excited about
more studies, more data comingout where it can kind of help
educate everyone on hey, all ofthis has an impact and it should
be considered in your circularstrategies.
Stephanie McLarty (12:45):
So what are some of the other measures
beyond carbon that you wouldmeasure at Green Standards in
the work that you do and interms of circular workplaces as
a whole?
Heidi Frasure (12:54):
Yeah, so we would measure.
You know the amount ofequipment coming out, and so we
could do that by headcount.
We also measure in-kinddonation dollars.
So we are benefiting with ourclients, local community
partners, on a daily basis, somaking sure that those assets
that are being stripped out ofthat building have a second life
, and that might be with someonein a local community, a
(13:17):
nonprofit, a school, whootherwise wouldn't have access
to those high-end assets likesteel, case, furniture, and so
you're giving them equitableaccess.
But then you're also givingthem the opportunity to not have
to go and fundraise to outfittheir offices or outfit their
departments, and so it allowsthem to focus on their true work
(13:37):
and their true calling.
So one of the measures for thatwe use is the beneficiary
stories.
I think that's a reallypowerful tool.
So it's not just the in-kinddonation dollars, it's also
telling their stories.
We just recently had a reallycool story where it's three
screen touchscreens that werecoming out of a automotive
dealership that were being usedfor the dealership are now being
(13:58):
used in a local community, andone of them went to a food bank.
So if you think about it likethat, one screen is now going to
impact thousands of lives andhelp feed food insecure
communities.
So there's a ton of impactthere that we help share that
story.
So that's very important.
And then the other side ofthings is that carbon savings,
carbon avoided as well.
So there's lots of measuresthere.
(14:20):
We also provide clients backwith line of sight transparency,
which I think is very importantfor customers.
They want to know that whatwe're doing, what we're saying
we're doing, we're actuallydoing, and so there's this
transparency transfer as well.
Stephanie McLarty (14:33):
And what are you seeing clients do with this
data?
Heidi Frasure (14:36):
So I think everyone is kind of obsessed
with data right now and in a lotof ways it's important right,
because now they can share thatstory, so they have their own
impact reporting, their ownmarketing and tools.
And then even internally with alot of employees employees care
about this stuff stories withemployees can help with employee
(14:59):
retention, overall employeebuy-in, to let them know that
you're doing the right thing andyou're impacting local
communities in a positive way.
So these stories can be sharedin multiple ways and multiple
fronts and have long-term impact.
Stephanie McLarty (15:13):
That's amazing.
Yeah, we're working on ourimpact report right now for this
past year, so I wanted to takea step back and think a little
bit about what we do with thisdata and really how it can help
us to drive action andmeaningful action, and
especially in terms ofcircularity.
We heard off the top thatcircularity as a whole, in terms
(15:34):
of where we're at as a planet,is quite low.
So how do we take this data andthen take meaningful action?
And I know, especially in termsof green standards, your
expertise is around circularworkplaces.
So how do we actually thenincrease our circularity numbers
(15:54):
using this data?
Heidi Frasure (15:57):
So I think I go back to you know, let's not
forget about the simplesolutions and the common sense,
right?
So let's not get so caught up inanalysis, paralysis of the data
that we're not actually takingaction and are shining lights on
impact reports.
So now we have access asconsumers, to all of the large
major corporations data and wecan see are they doing good, are
(16:33):
they doing bad and,unfortunately, a lot of times
you see in those impact reportsit's actually going in the wrong
direction, right, they're notmaking progress and, in fact,
most of them are increasingemissions somehow.
So I think it's less about thedata and it's more about the
action and how to takemeaningful action.
And in my perspective, I almostwonder if we just maybe are
(16:54):
focusing too much on the shinythings and we need to focus more
on simpler solutions.
I really feel like it's goingto be the practical and simple
solutions that get us out ofthis mess and that's where I
think we need to kind of befocusing our energy on and not
being afraid to do the rightthing.
Stephanie McLarty (17:12):
Right.
Take action, take meaningfulaction, and failure is part of
this.
We talked a few episodes.
Heidi Frasure (17:19):
Iterative approach is part of systems
thinking, like if you make amistake, you iterate on that
mistake, change, adapt and moveon.
Stephanie McLarty (17:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know, fail fast, failforward, fail forward yeah, lots
of, lots of expressions wecould use here, but I completely
agree.
Okay, heidi, I want to get intoour how-to section and we used
to call this our rapid-firehow-to section and then I
realized nobody answers any ofthe how-to questions in a short,
(17:48):
succinct way.
So we're just going to get ridof that rapid-fire and call it
our how-to section going forward.
So, heidi, first of all, wecapture all this data, but how
to keep track of these variousmeasures?
Any advice?
But how to keep track of thesevarious measures?
Any advice on how to keep trackof the measures?
Heidi Frasure (18:05):
Yeah.
So there's so many tools outthere now, even from like.
If you're a small organizationand you don't have money for the
big, expensive fancy tools, youcould do it in Excel, and I
think a lot of companies havestarted with Excel tools.
Right?
Just spreadsheets on trackingand measuring.
I think before you start doingthat though it might be good to
understand again take a stepback, do a material flow
(18:28):
analysis and understand whatshould you be tracking?
Don't just track data to trackdata like what's important to
your clients, what's importantto your business and your
mission critical, what are themeasures that you should be
tracking?
You can do things like wasteaudits to try to figure out
where are your big heavy hittersin your waste stream.
It may surprise you, I knowwhen I was working at Steelcase,
(18:51):
a lot of our waste stream wasactually in the form of wooden
steel not necessarily trashgoing to landfill, right and so
sometimes doing those wasteaudits can be really insightful
and point you in the rightdirection of what you should be
tracking.
And then again, there's tons oftools.
You can get lost in the sauceon how many tools are out there,
but there's a lot, and so youhave to figure out which one
(19:12):
best meets your needs.
But don't get so stuck in thatassessment.
You could easily do the samesimple assessments in Excel.
Stephanie McLarty (19:26):
Yeah, I think that's great advice, and if
you're starting in Excel, it'sto what you were saying earlier
Keep it simple and focus onaction.
Okay, great Now.
The Circularity Gap Reporttalks about the human element in
terms of circularity and how wecan't forget about that, of
circularity and how we can'tforget about that.
(19:46):
So, heidi, how to not forgetabout the human well-being and
human needs in all of this.
Heidi Frasure (19:49):
Yeah, I really like kind of where the European
Union's going on supply chainassessment, because I think
that's going to help shiftthinking a little bit more
around.
You know, like I was saying,what is your procurement team
doing?
What are their policies looklike from a sourcing perspective
?
Are they, are you doing anysupply chain review to see if
there's slave labor or any badpractices happening in your
(20:12):
supply chain?
If not, you should be right.
And so I think there's allsorts of social pieces of the
puzzle that need to be focusedon.
It's not just about carbon, it'snot just about data.
It's about your entire supplychain, your entire process and
your manufacturing process.
Are the employees being treatedwell?
Are they being exposed to nastychemicals?
(20:33):
What is happening in youractual production process?
Are you aware of it, first ofall?
So I think there's a lot ofassessments, internal
assessments that should be doneand again, don't try to
overcomplicate it.
You can do a simple materialflow assessment to say, okay,
here's all the areas we shouldbe at least doing an audit on to
(20:54):
see what's happening, so thatwe can maybe adjust wherever we
see problems.
Or maybe it's a differentsupplier that you need to be
working with.
There's all sorts of changesthat could occur from that audit
process throughout yourmaterial flows.
Stephanie McLarty (21:07):
Great advice.
And, lastly, how to create acircular workplace.
Heidi Frasure (21:14):
I think you know this is kind of the challenge of
our time, right, and I alwayslook at my work as this is life
work.
This isn't.
There's no timeframesassociated with doing some of
this work and, from a circularworkplace perspective, it's
going to require a system.
It's going to requirepartnerships from everyone.
It's going to require all ofthe original equipment
(21:36):
manufacturers working togetherwith partners like us who can
help with end of life, and likeyou who can help with end of
life.
It's a policy, smart policythat actually moves the needle
and helps incentivize doing theright thing.
So it's not this cost breakdownfor clients.
So I think it's everyoneworking together towards a
common goal, and that's our hopetoo.
(21:57):
We have the Circular WorkplaceCoalition, where we are trying
to pull in everyone fromdifferent industries to really
build out what does a circularworkplace look like and how can
we all be actually acting onthat and moving that needle
together.
Stephanie McLarty (22:12):
Yeah, and I know Quantum is a part of that
coalition and coming at it fromthe angle of electronics reuse
and recycling, and you alsoproduce a report every year, and
so we'll link that report inour show notes as well.
Heidi Frasure (22:27):
Awesome.
Yeah, we have one coming thisfall too, which I'm pretty
excited about.
It's going to kind of focus alittle bit more on the people
and how humans and how everyonekind of relates and how we can
help move the needle in ourroles and each individual role
Amazing and that speaks to thewhole human element in all of
this, which we can't forget.
Stephanie McLarty (22:48):
Heidi, this has been really interesting.
I know a couple of things thathave stuck with me is the don't
get stuck in analysis, paralysisand really keeping things
simple.
What would be one piece ofadvice that you'd leave our
listeners with in terms of thiswhole space and wrapping your
heads around measuringcircularity but also, and more
(23:11):
importantly, taking actiontowards circularity?
Heidi Frasure (23:14):
Yeah, I think action is huge right.
So I was lucky enough to hearSarah Neff speak from Land Lease
and I loved what she had to say.
So I'm shamelessly stealingthat, and it's don't be afraid
to do the right thing.
Even if the carbon doesn'tmeasure up, or even if there's
maybe not a direct financialreturn on investment, but
(23:35):
there's a social orenvironmental return on
investment.
Don't be afraid to do the rightthing.
And you don't have to be in asustainability role to have an
impact here.
Anyone in any role.
If you see an opportunity toimprove a process that directly
relates to your role, make thatchange.
We all can be agents of changewithin our organizations and
it's going to take everyone inevery role to really make this
(23:58):
change happen.
Stephanie McLarty (24:00):
Yes, be an agent of change, and a lot of
our listeners are businessmanagers or leaders who are not
in formal sustainability rolesbut who are tasked with
sustainability initiatives inone way or another.
So I think that's perfectadvice Be an agent of change.
Maybe I'll take that one, heidiof yours.
Thank you so much, heidi.
(24:22):
I really appreciate having youhere on the podcast and sharing
your wisdom.
Heidi Frasure (24:26):
Thank you so much for having me.
We really appreciate thecollaboration that you've had
with us as well.
Yeah, awesome.
Stephanie McLarty (24:33):
And remember if you have old or redundant
electronics, we'd love to chat.
Head on over toquantumlifecyclecom and contact
us.
This is a Quantum Lifecyclepodcast and the producer is
Sanjay Trivedi.
Thank you for being a CircularFuture Champion in your company
and beyond.
Logging off.
The Circularity Gap Report recently
concluded that the world becameless circular in 2023, down to
only 7.2% from the 2018 baselineof 9.1%.
This begs a lot of questions,firstly, on how we all measure
circularity and, secondly, howdo we increase those numbers?
(00:25):
On how we all measurecircularity and, secondly, how
do we increase those numbers.
Welcome to the circular futureyour access to thought leaders
and innovations to help you be abusiness sustainability
champion, even if it's not yourcore job.
I'm your host.
Stephanie McLarty, head ofSustainability at Quantum
Lifecycle Partners.
Hey, nothing like starting offwith some dismal news, but, as
(00:45):
legend Peter Drucker said, youcan't manage what you can't
measure.
And some positive news in allof this.
That same report said thecircular economy has reached
mega trend status, with threetimes the volume of discussions,
debates and articles over thesame period.
With me to understand how wecan all measure circularity and
(01:08):
take meaningful action is HeidiFraser, head of Sustainability
at Green Standards, asustainable office
decommissioning company.
Heidi has worked insustainability for over 17 years
, including seven years ofpioneering work as a circular
economy leader for the world'slargest office furniture
manufacturer, steelcase.
Welcome to the podcast, heidi.
Heidi Frasure (01:28):
Hi, stephanie, super excited to be here with
you today.
Stephanie McLarty (01:31):
I'm super excited that you're here, Heidi,
Now.
We always start off by taking apeek into your world.
So, Heidi, what would be threethings that the world wouldn't
know about Green Standards?
Heidi Frasure (01:43):
Yeah.
So I guess maybe the first oneis that we are a circular
business model.
So by our very nature of whatwe do, we're helping to
recirculate furniture, fixtures,all of the interiors inside the
building.
We usually say, if you dump abuilding out and shake it, we
help manage all the stuff thatcomes out of that building in an
ethical and sustainable wayFinding reuse, relocation,
(02:07):
donation partners and recyclingpartners to keep those materials
out of landfill.
And so I think that'd be thefirst one that we exist as a
circular business model, andwe've been around for 15 years.
We're not new to this game.
Second one, I think, is thatthis work is not easy.
It's very challenging, but noone quite does it the way that
(02:27):
we do, because we help findend-to-end processes and
services for the client.
So we're actually connectingall of those assets to an end
user, either through donationpathway, a reuse pathway or
recycling pathway.
And so we're seeing it throughto from inception to completion,
which I think makes us unique.
And so we're seeing it throughto from inception to completion,
which I think makes us unique.
And then we're able to giveclients back reporting, so high
(02:52):
level reporting on landfilldiversion, carbon saved and
in-kind donation dollars.
And then I think the thirdpiece is that we're global.
So again, I think, from acircular business model, it's
really rare to find circularbusinesses or circular models at
scale and we are doing thiswork at scale on a global level.
And so I think that's probablythe last piece.
Stephanie McLarty (03:15):
That kind of wraps that up appropriate that
you yourselves work at thatscale as well.
Now, heidi, the more I'velearned about your background,
the more I've seen it's likeyour background has been a
mirror of the whole industryitself.
So can we first actually diveinto that a little bit Like how
(03:35):
did you get to where you are now?
Heidi Frasure (03:37):
Yeah, I have a really weird background and I
guess that's for any listenerswho you know don't have a
traditional sustainabilitydegree.
I think you don't have to.
I had a really fluid path.
My background or my originalstudy was in the sciences, earth
sciences, watershed science tobe specific.
But yeah, I started my careerreally cleaning up messes from
(03:58):
the past, so doing nuclear wastesite cleanup and then oil and
gas spill I worked on thelargest oil spill onshore in US
history and so cleaning up thosemesses and the waste so it's
kind of like the end of lifereally was the beginning of my
career.
I realized how important it wasfor businesses to do the right
(04:19):
thing in the first place.
And those downstream costs arevery expensive and it occurred
to me as I was doing some ofthat cleanup work I was actually
paying for some of those costsright in my tax dollars.
So I think it just reallyoccurred to me that if I could
get into businesses and helpkind of corrupt from within for
the good and help shift theirthinking to start doing the
(04:43):
right thing now, it can reallyhelp improve that downstream
process.
And so I started working on thebusiness side of things, spent
seven years of my career doingcircular economy work at
Steelcase, where it was all theway from the design of products
through their production process, all the way to end of life,
helping to make those processesmore circular.
And I really got engaged withGreen Standards back in 2020
(05:07):
when clients needed end of lifesolutions and at the time we
didn't have a solution providerfor that and so built up a
relationship with GreenStandards and it was really kind
of an easy transition to kindof come on board with them,
because at Green Standardswhat's good for our business is
innately good for theenvironment and for our local
communities, and so it's beenreally fun to be on this side of
(05:30):
things.
I've built my career off ofdoing what's right and now I'm
working for a company where it'sjust the right thing to do.
Stephanie McLarty (05:37):
So I love that you've built your career
off of doing what's right, andtoday we're going to talk about
measuring circularity and how totake action against that, and
you mentioned in the earlierpart of your career around
cleaning up messes, so I thinkthere's sometimes a
misconception around doing theright thing can often be costly,
(05:59):
so let's talk about financialmeasures.
Can often be costly.
So let's talk about financialmeasures.
What are some of the costsassociated with?
Heidi Frasure (06:06):
perhaps doing the wrong thing.
Yeah, so there's a lot of costs, right?
So there I think, what in ourindustry?
Oftentimes when a client isgoing through a fit out or a
strip out meaning they're eitherputting interiors in a building
or they're stripping thoseinteriors out of the building
there's waste associated withthat.
There's also labor andlogistics costs associated with
that.
Those materials have to eitherbe pulled out or stripped out,
(06:30):
and so that all has a costassociated with it.
We've actually just recentlyrun some numbers to see you know
what would our costs be incomparison to and we didn't even
use worst case scenario, whichwould be going to landfill we
used a better case scenario of aclient potentially using a
(06:50):
brokerage to sell the bestquality products that still have
value, and it was still 10%less to use our services.
So I think, ultimately,customers don't have a really
good understanding what thatstrip out phase looks like, and
so they often just assume thatit's very expensive to do the
right thing and assume thatlandfill is cheaper.
But you know, as disposal costsrise, that's not always going
(07:11):
to be the case, and I thinkwe've seen firsthand that that's
not the case for clients.
I think that you know.
To your second question whatother measures?
There's social and there'senvironmental costs that should
always be considered.
I don't think return oninvestment equations should only
be focused on financials.
I think they also have toconsider what those social and
environmental impacts are, and Iknow that can be challenging to
(07:32):
do, but there's all sorts ofdata now on the cost of carbon
that could be used and leveragedand there's also, you know,
your local community impactsthat you should consider.
I know, historically speaking,a lot of the waste sites that I
was doing cleanup work for wereactual landfills where they had
leakage leachate.
So going to landfill isn'tnecessarily the most
(07:55):
environmental from a long termperspective.
A lot of times those landfillshave long term impacts and costs
associated with them.
Stephanie McLarty (08:02):
Absolutely, and we see that with electronics
as well.
So I wanted to ask you a bitmore about carbon, specifically,
because I feel like a lot ofcompanies focus on carbon and
sometimes focus only on carbon,given it's the measure of our
time, it seems.
But there can be a bit of adanger in just looking at carbon
.
Walk us through that.
(08:23):
What are some of the downsidesof only focusing on carbon?
Heidi Frasure (08:26):
Yeah, maybe the easiest way to kind of look at
this is if you're only lookingat end of life and you're using,
let's say, the warm emissionsfactors which are widely used
for end of life disposal carbonemissions calculations, and if
you just look at aluminum, youcan really see this kind of
shine through where, if you'reonly using that lens, carbon as
(08:49):
the measure for aluminum, youmight make the wrong decision
and put it in landfill, becausethe emissions factor to going to
landfill for aluminum isactually almost 200% less than
if you're going to recycling,and so that's kind of
mind-boggling right, because wefor aluminum is actually almost
200% less than if you're goingto recycling, and so that's kind
of mind boggling right, becausewe know aluminum is highly
recyclable.
In fact it can have 95% lessembodied carbon emissions to use
(09:12):
recycled aluminum than versusvirgin, and so we know that it's
the right thing to do torecycle aluminum.
But if you're only lookingthrough a carbon lens and you're
only looking at end of life,you might make that wrong
decision.
So I think it's just importantto kind of take a step back and
understand that what we'retalking about here is systems
work.
It requires systems thinkingand design thinking.
(09:34):
It requires iterativeapproaches and sometimes, to
just oversimplify it, itrequires common sense.
I think to take a step back andjust look at things from a
common sense perspective isusually the best approach.
In my past I liked, looking atmaterial flow analyses to say,
okay, what is actually happeninghere From a procurement
(09:55):
perspective?
What are our procurement peopledoing?
How are they sourcing thesematerials?
What are those social andenvironmental impacts?
What are the costs?
Are there any cost savings?
And then you can kind of gothrough that entire flow,
process flow and seeopportunities for improvement in
each one of those phases.
And it should be fairly commonsense, Like it should be fairly
(10:15):
easy to do that, and I thinkthat's probably a better
approach.
I think carbon is absolutelyimportant and it's not going
away and I'm not saying thatit's bad.
I think it's great that weactually have a measure, but I
think it can't be the onlymeasure, because it can
potentially push us down wrongpathways if we're only looking
at it through that lens.
Stephanie McLarty (10:37):
I heard the term carbon tunnel vision, where
you basically put blinders onlike a horse and you look only
at this factor of carbon.
But how limiting it can be whenthere's so many other aspects,
especially when we talk aboutcircularity.
And I want to get into anexample of this because I feel
(10:58):
it makes it more real when youcan think about a tangible
example of this.
Because I feel it makes it morereal when you can think about a
tangible example, and I knowthat at Green Standards you
focus on circular workplaces andspecifically helping around the
decommissioning and shaking outthe contents of an office
during a move or a major change.
So if you focus on furnitureand fixtures, let's start with
(11:18):
carbon.
How much do furniture andfixtures contribute?
Let's start with carbon.
How much do furniture andfixtures contribute from a
carbon perspective?
So super good question.
Heidi Frasure (11:26):
There's not a lot of research on this.
There's a ton of research onconstruction and demolition
waste and the emissionsassociated with that, and we
know the built environmentaccounts for 40% of global
emissions, so we know it has ahuge impact.
But there's not a ton of studiesfull lifecycle analysis of the
building and the interiors ofthe building until recently.
(11:46):
And so there's actually a studythat hasn't been published yet
but by Brightworks that I'mreally excited about, that is
showing, you know, the interiorsof an office building actually
have a large embodied carbonfootprint, and it's estimating
the interiors from furniture andthat includes, like wall
coverings, flooring, ceiling,tiles, all of the interiors.
(12:07):
It almost accounts for 50% ofthe embodied carbon of that
building.
So that's an important factor,I think, to consider, and as we
get more and more data like that, we might be able to kind of
reframe some of our thinkingaround the interior waste.
Right now, I think a lot oftimes, like I said, in those
strip out phases, the waste fromthe strip out is an untracked,
(12:29):
unmeasured and unseen issue, andso I think I'm excited about
more studies, more data comingout where it can kind of help
educate everyone on hey, all ofthis has an impact and it should
be considered in your circularstrategies.
Stephanie McLarty (12:45):
So what are some of the other measures
beyond carbon that you wouldmeasure at Green Standards in
the work that you do and interms of circular workplaces as
a whole?
Heidi Frasure (12:54):
Yeah, so we would measure.
You know the amount ofequipment coming out, and so we
could do that by headcount.
We also measure in-kinddonation dollars.
So we are benefiting with ourclients, local community
partners, on a daily basis, somaking sure that those assets
that are being stripped out ofthat building have a second life
, and that might be with someonein a local community, a
(13:17):
nonprofit, a school, whootherwise wouldn't have access
to those high-end assets likesteel, case, furniture, and so
you're giving them equitableaccess.
But then you're also givingthem the opportunity to not have
to go and fundraise to outfittheir offices or outfit their
departments, and so it allowsthem to focus on their true work
(13:37):
and their true calling.
So one of the measures for thatwe use is the beneficiary
stories.
I think that's a reallypowerful tool.
So it's not just the in-kinddonation dollars, it's also
telling their stories.
We just recently had a reallycool story where it's three
screen touchscreens that werecoming out of a automotive
dealership that were being usedfor the dealership are now being
(13:58):
used in a local community, andone of them went to a food bank.
So if you think about it likethat, one screen is now going to
impact thousands of lives andhelp feed food insecure
communities.
So there's a ton of impactthere that we help share that
story.
So that's very important.
And then the other side ofthings is that carbon savings,
carbon avoided as well.
So there's lots of measuresthere.
(14:20):
We also provide clients backwith line of sight transparency,
which I think is very importantfor customers.
They want to know that whatwe're doing, what we're saying
we're doing, we're actuallydoing, and so there's this
transparency transfer as well.
Stephanie McLarty (14:33):
And what are you seeing clients do with this
data?
Heidi Frasure (14:36):
So I think everyone is kind of obsessed
with data right now and in a lotof ways it's important right,
because now they can share thatstory, so they have their own
impact reporting, their ownmarketing and tools.
And then even internally with alot of employees employees care
about this stuff stories withemployees can help with employee
(14:59):
retention, overall employeebuy-in, to let them know that
you're doing the right thing andyou're impacting local
communities in a positive way.
So these stories can be sharedin multiple ways and multiple
fronts and have long-term impact.
Stephanie McLarty (15:13):
That's amazing.
Yeah, we're working on ourimpact report right now for this
past year, so I wanted to takea step back and think a little
bit about what we do with thisdata and really how it can help
us to drive action andmeaningful action, and
especially in terms ofcircularity.
We heard off the top thatcircularity as a whole, in terms
(15:34):
of where we're at as a planet,is quite low.
So how do we take this data andthen take meaningful action?
And I know, especially in termsof green standards, your
expertise is around circularworkplaces.
So how do we actually thenincrease our circularity numbers
(15:54):
using this data?
Heidi Frasure (15:57):
So I think I go back to you know, let's not
forget about the simplesolutions and the common sense,
right?
So let's not get so caught up inanalysis, paralysis of the data
that we're not actually takingaction and are shining lights on
impact reports.
So now we have access asconsumers, to all of the large
major corporations data and wecan see are they doing good, are
(16:33):
they doing bad and,unfortunately, a lot of times
you see in those impact reportsit's actually going in the wrong
direction, right, they're notmaking progress and, in fact,
most of them are increasingemissions somehow.
So I think it's less about thedata and it's more about the
action and how to takemeaningful action.
And in my perspective, I almostwonder if we just maybe are
(16:54):
focusing too much on the shinythings and we need to focus more
on simpler solutions.
I really feel like it's goingto be the practical and simple
solutions that get us out ofthis mess and that's where I
think we need to kind of befocusing our energy on and not
being afraid to do the rightthing.
Stephanie McLarty (17:12):
Right.
Take action, take meaningfulaction, and failure is part of
this.
We talked a few episodes.
Heidi Frasure (17:19):
Iterative approach is part of systems
thinking, like if you make amistake, you iterate on that
mistake, change, adapt and moveon.
Stephanie McLarty (17:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know, fail fast, failforward, fail forward yeah, lots
of, lots of expressions wecould use here, but I completely
agree.
Okay, heidi, I want to get intoour how-to section and we used
to call this our rapid-firehow-to section and then I
realized nobody answers any ofthe how-to questions in a short,
(17:48):
succinct way.
So we're just going to get ridof that rapid-fire and call it
our how-to section going forward.
So, heidi, first of all, wecapture all this data, but how
to keep track of these variousmeasures?
Any advice?
But how to keep track of thesevarious measures?
Any advice on how to keep trackof the measures?
Heidi Frasure (18:05):
Yeah.
So there's so many tools outthere now, even from like.
If you're a small organizationand you don't have money for the
big, expensive fancy tools, youcould do it in Excel, and I
think a lot of companies havestarted with Excel tools.
Right?
Just spreadsheets on trackingand measuring.
I think before you start doingthat though it might be good to
understand again take a stepback, do a material flow
(18:28):
analysis and understand whatshould you be tracking?
Don't just track data to trackdata like what's important to
your clients, what's importantto your business and your
mission critical, what are themeasures that you should be
tracking?
You can do things like wasteaudits to try to figure out
where are your big heavy hittersin your waste stream.
It may surprise you, I knowwhen I was working at Steelcase,
(18:51):
a lot of our waste stream wasactually in the form of wooden
steel not necessarily trashgoing to landfill, right and so
sometimes doing those wasteaudits can be really insightful
and point you in the rightdirection of what you should be
tracking.
And then again, there's tons oftools.
You can get lost in the sauceon how many tools are out there,
but there's a lot, and so youhave to figure out which one
(19:12):
best meets your needs.
But don't get so stuck in thatassessment.
You could easily do the samesimple assessments in Excel.
Stephanie McLarty (19:26):
Yeah, I think that's great advice, and if
you're starting in Excel, it'sto what you were saying earlier
Keep it simple and focus onaction.
Okay, great Now.
The Circularity Gap Reporttalks about the human element in
terms of circularity and how wecan't forget about that, of
circularity and how we can'tforget about that.
(19:46):
So, heidi, how to not forgetabout the human well-being and
human needs in all of this.
Heidi Frasure (19:49):
Yeah, I really like kind of where the European
Union's going on supply chainassessment, because I think
that's going to help shiftthinking a little bit more
around.
You know, like I was saying,what is your procurement team
doing?
What are their policies looklike from a sourcing perspective
?
Are they, are you doing anysupply chain review to see if
there's slave labor or any badpractices happening in your
(20:12):
supply chain?
If not, you should be right.
And so I think there's allsorts of social pieces of the
puzzle that need to be focusedon.
It's not just about carbon, it'snot just about data.
It's about your entire supplychain, your entire process and
your manufacturing process.
Are the employees being treatedwell?
Are they being exposed to nastychemicals?
(20:33):
What is happening in youractual production process?
Are you aware of it, first ofall?
So I think there's a lot ofassessments, internal
assessments that should be doneand again, don't try to
overcomplicate it.
You can do a simple materialflow assessment to say, okay,
here's all the areas we shouldbe at least doing an audit on to
(20:54):
see what's happening, so thatwe can maybe adjust wherever we
see problems.
Or maybe it's a differentsupplier that you need to be
working with.
There's all sorts of changesthat could occur from that audit
process throughout yourmaterial flows.
Stephanie McLarty (21:07):
Great advice.
And, lastly, how to create acircular workplace.
Heidi Frasure (21:14):
I think you know this is kind of the challenge of
our time, right, and I alwayslook at my work as this is life
work.
This isn't.
There's no timeframesassociated with doing some of
this work and, from a circularworkplace perspective, it's
going to require a system.
It's going to requirepartnerships from everyone.
It's going to require all ofthe original equipment
(21:36):
manufacturers working togetherwith partners like us who can
help with end of life, and likeyou who can help with end of
life.
It's a policy, smart policythat actually moves the needle
and helps incentivize doing theright thing.
So it's not this cost breakdownfor clients.
So I think it's everyoneworking together towards a
common goal, and that's our hopetoo.
(21:57):
We have the Circular WorkplaceCoalition, where we are trying
to pull in everyone fromdifferent industries to really
build out what does a circularworkplace look like and how can
we all be actually acting onthat and moving that needle
together.
Stephanie McLarty (22:12):
Yeah, and I know Quantum is a part of that
coalition and coming at it fromthe angle of electronics reuse
and recycling, and you alsoproduce a report every year, and
so we'll link that report inour show notes as well.
Heidi Frasure (22:27):
Awesome.
Yeah, we have one coming thisfall too, which I'm pretty
excited about.
It's going to kind of focus alittle bit more on the people
and how humans and how everyonekind of relates and how we can
help move the needle in ourroles and each individual role
Amazing and that speaks to thewhole human element in all of
this, which we can't forget.
Stephanie McLarty (22:48):
Heidi, this has been really interesting.
I know a couple of things thathave stuck with me is the don't
get stuck in analysis, paralysisand really keeping things
simple.
What would be one piece ofadvice that you'd leave our
listeners with in terms of thiswhole space and wrapping your
heads around measuringcircularity but also, and more
(23:11):
importantly, taking actiontowards circularity?
Heidi Frasure (23:14):
Yeah, I think action is huge right.
So I was lucky enough to hearSarah Neff speak from Land Lease
and I loved what she had to say.
So I'm shamelessly stealingthat, and it's don't be afraid
to do the right thing.
Even if the carbon doesn'tmeasure up, or even if there's
maybe not a direct financialreturn on investment, but
(23:35):
there's a social orenvironmental return on
investment.
Don't be afraid to do the rightthing.
And you don't have to be in asustainability role to have an
impact here.
Anyone in any role.
If you see an opportunity toimprove a process that directly
relates to your role, make thatchange.
We all can be agents of changewithin our organizations and
it's going to take everyone inevery role to really make this
(23:58):
change happen.
Stephanie McLarty (24:00):
Yes, be an agent of change, and a lot of
our listeners are businessmanagers or leaders who are not
in formal sustainability rolesbut who are tasked with
sustainability initiatives inone way or another.
So I think that's perfectadvice Be an agent of change.
Maybe I'll take that one, heidiof yours.
Thank you so much, heidi.
(24:22):
I really appreciate having youhere on the podcast and sharing
your wisdom.
Heidi Frasure (24:26):
Thank you so much for having me.
We really appreciate thecollaboration that you've had
with us as well.
Yeah, awesome.
Stephanie McLarty (24:33):
And remember if you have old or redundant
electronics, we'd love to chat.
Head on over toquantumlifecyclecom and contact
us.
This is a Quantum Lifecyclepodcast and the producer is
Sanjay Trivedi.
Thank you for being a CircularFuture Champion in your company
and beyond.
Logging off.
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