June 5, 2025 • 42 mins
In this conversation, Stephanie McLarty and Bob Willard delve into the concept of sustainable procurement, exploring its definition, importance, and implementation strategies. Bob shares his extensive experience in sustainability and emphasizes the need for organizations to engage suppliers in their sustainability goals. The discussion covers various aspects of sustainable procurement, including the significance of circularity, the tools available for implementation, and the innovative 'signal, prefer, require' framework. Bob also provides practical advice for organizations looking to adopt sustainable practices, highlighting the interconnectedness of sustainability and business success.
Takeaways
- Sustainable procurement is about getting best value for money.
- Companies must engage suppliers to meet sustainability goals.
- Sustainable procurement can lead to cost savings.
- Tools and resources are available to aid sustainable procurement.
- Circularity is essential for reducing carbon footprints.
- Meeting organizational priorities is key to promoting sustainability.
- Sustainability initiatives can enhance business resilience.
- Connecting sustainability to existing goals is crucial for success.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
One of the biggest ways to make a difference is to
vote with your wallet.
So how can companies buy betterfor a more sustainable future?
Welcome to the Circular Future,your access to thought leaders
and innovations to help you be abusiness sustainability
champion, even if it's not yourcore job.
(00:21):
I'm your host, stephanieMcLarty, head of Sustainability
at Quantum Lifecycle Partners,where we close the loop for
(00:44):
electronics.
The truth is, if we keep buyingthe same stuff in the same way
as we always have, we will getthe same result.
It reminds me of a definitionof insanity.
So today we're unpackingsustainable procurement and how
companies can implement it.
(01:05):
With me is Bob Willard, founderand chief sustainability
champion at SustainabilityAdvantage.
Bob is a leading expert onsustainability justifications,
reporting frameworks andsustainable procurement.
Over the last 23 years he hasgiven over 1,800 presentations,
(01:26):
has authored six books andpublished two white papers, and
I know you've been on manypodcasts as well.
We're fortunate to have himhere, as I would personally
describe Bob as a legend in ourspace.
So welcome to the podcast, bob.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Wow, what a generous introduction.
Thanks a lot.
Looking forward to this.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Well, we really appreciate having you here to
share your wisdom and all ofyour expertise.
So, Bob, I know there'll be alot of listeners who might be
familiar with you.
There may be some who aren't.
So let's start with our firstquestion, which is what would be
three things that the worldwouldn't necessarily know about
the work that you do atSustainability Advantage?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Well, first of all, I am Sustainability Advantage.
I'm just a sole proprietor, sowhat you're looking at is the
whole organization.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Amazing.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
A couple of things.
Most people know that I had aprevious life in IBM.
I worked for IBM Canada for 34years and people assumed that I
was doing something to do withsustainability or procurement in
my time at IBM and I hadnothing to do with those things.
I was in marketing, I was inleadership development, I was in
(02:40):
management at various levels inthe organization, product
support, etc.
Management and various levelsin the organization, product
support, et cetera.
From a procurement point ofview, I was on the supplier side
of the equation, so I wasresponding to RFPs put out by
customers, some from the publicsector, some from the private
sector.
So my experience in IBM had todo more with leadership and how
(03:04):
to be a good supplier toorganizations.
One other thing that people maynot be aware of is I really try
to walk the talk on a lot of thethings I'm advocating for with
organizations and I decided afew years ago that I tried to
get my carbon footprint undercontrol.
So I decided to see how close Icould get to net zero and I
(03:28):
entered the Canadian net zerochallenge and it was an
interesting experience.
I started to realize that mostof my carbon footprint was
coming from my travel either inmy car or in the plane, in
planes.
So I decided to take the leapand I stopped flying just before
(03:52):
COVID actually not as a resultof COVID, but I just stopped
flying Try it for a year.
And I haven't flown for thelast five years and I don't
think I ever will, because Iused to fly all over the world
doing talks.
As you mentioned before, I do alot of talks, so I was in Europe
and India and China andAustralia and New Zealand and
(04:13):
they was all fantastic I meangreat trips.
But I decided to stop flyingand I also decided to get an
electric vehicle, a plug-inelectric vehicle.
My carbon footprint is now zeroand I intend to keep it that
way.
I take the train and I also usebullfrog power and bullfrog
(04:36):
natural gas, so I'm carbonneutral without using offsets.
It's kind of nice to be able tosay it's doable once you put
your mind to it, Once you makethat decision, which is the
hardest part.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Well, and, bob, I think that's part of the reason
why your work is sowell-respected, because you
actually walk the talk, and Ifeel like we could probably do a
whole podcast episode on thethings you've learned going next
zero.
But today I want to pick yourbrain about sustainable
procurement, and I want to getstarted, because I feel like
(05:12):
some listeners may know whatthat means, others may not, so
let's sort of level the playingfield.
What does sustainableprocurement actually mean?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah, great question, because it's an expression
that's used quite often and veryoften with different meanings
behind the use.
So I'm on the board of theSustainable Purchasing
Leadership Council, splc, andthe definition that they use for
sustainable procurement is thatsustainable procurement is
getting best value for moneywhen you're purchasing the most
(05:46):
sustainable goods and servicesfrom the most sustainable
suppliers in support of yourorganization's priorities and
purpose and strategic goals.
So it's looking at not only theattributes of the products, the
goods and services, but alsothe attributes of the company
that's producing those goods andservices the suppliers.
(06:07):
So that's the definition and,as we get into assessing how
it's going for organizations, weassess the extent to which they
are taking both of those thingsinto account the attributes of
the goods and services, as wellas the attributes of the goods
and services, as well as theattributes of the suppliers and
making sure that their scores onthose things matter when you're
(06:32):
doing the bid appraisals.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Now I know you talk a lot about net zero procurement
and there's also circularprocurement, so how similar or
different are they fromsustainable procurement?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, lots of little different adjectives in front of
procurement.
So I think of sustainableprocurement as the umbrella, the
umbrella term, and underneaththat are what the Canadian
government calls greenprocurement, looking after the
environmental attributes ofgoods and services.
(07:08):
There's also social procurementunderneath that umbrella, so
paying attention to whether theorganization is a women-led
organization or indigenous-ledorganization or a social
enterprise, that kind of thingas well, or a social enterprise
that kind of thing as well.
And underneath greenprocurement there's net zero
procurement, circularprocurement.
(07:29):
So there's subsets.
Sustainable procurement is theumbrella term and the others are
subsets of that.
So when we look at net zeroprocurement, the definition of
net zero procurement is sort ofa riff off the definition of
sustainable procurement.
(07:49):
So it's getting the most of thebest value from purchasing the
most low carbon and circulargoods and services From
suppliers who are most committedto reducing the greenhouse
gases In support of thecompany's goals, priorities and
purpose.
So again, it's looking at theattributes of the goods and
(08:13):
services and the supplier, butonly looking at the greenhouse
gas and circularity dimensionsof that, not the whole ball of
wax, just the climate-relatedattributes of the goods and
services and the suppliers.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Okay, I feel like I can picture it now, which I
never could before, withsustainable procurement being
the umbrella and then theadjectives falling underneath it
.
But, regardless, you've got thetwo aspects which is the
product or the service, and howsustainable or green or circular
that is, and the company, aswell as the other aspect, to
(08:58):
look at.
There are a lot of aspects forcompanies to look at these days,
and I mean sustainability is ahuge one, but I feel like
companies are dealing with somuch.
It's such an unprecedentedbusiness environment for
uncertainty.
Tariffs seems to be the word of2025.
Why, bob, should a companyfocus on sustainable procurement
when there's all these otherthings that a company should
(09:20):
worry about too?
Right, that a?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
company should worry about too, right?
So if they, as a company, careabout sustainability and if
they've got strategic goalsrelative to that for themselves
not for their suppliers, but forthemselves then they'll find
that they can't meet those goalsunless they engage the
suppliers, because they'reaccountable for the impacts that
their suppliers have on theenvironment and on society.
(09:44):
They're mutually accountablefor those things.
It used to be, they weren't.
These days they are.
So you can't outsource thedirty stuff and get away with
that anymore.
People want to know what'shappening in the rest of your
value chain as a result of theproduction of your goods and
services, or the use of yourgoods and services, or the
disposition at the end of lifeof those goods and services, or
(10:05):
the use of your goods andservices, or the disposition at
the end of life of those goodsand services.
So you need to keep track ofall that stuff, and especially
from a greenhouse gasperspective.
We talk about the carbonfootprint of the products which
gets into the supply chaincontribution to the carbon
that's embedded, embodied in thegoods and services, as well as
(10:29):
the greenhouse gases that areemitted when you use those goods
and services.
So if you're manufacturing cars, then you need to take those
into account.
So the old days when you justhad to worry about your own
impacts are the good old daysfor a lot of companies.
(10:49):
Right now, they are going nutstrying to be more responsible,
not only in their own operations, but ensuring that they're
dealing with suppliers who arealso responsible.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yeah, the supply chain aspect is so huge, and I
think too there's a lot of waysthat coming at it with a
sustainable lens actually helpsyou be a better resilient
business anyways.
I mean, the studies show andthere's a recent study where
about half of companies reportedreducing cost and increasing
(11:22):
revenue as a result of theirsustainability initiatives so it
can be integrated right.
It's not just one or the other.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yeah, and strangely, a lot of people think that
sustainable procurement or netzero procurement is going to
make the goods and services moreexpensive.
It's actually the opposite veryoften.
Uh, you save money and makemore money.
Uh, if your goods and servicesare more sustainable or if
(11:53):
they're net zero, if they'redecarbonized.
So, as we get into the benefitsof all of this, um, people are
usually pleasantly surprised, orjust surprised that it's not
going to be that more expensive.
You get best value, notnecessarily the best price, but
you get the best value Becauseif you are meeting your company
(12:16):
goals by procuring fromsuppliers who are more
responsible, then you're gettinggood value from that
procurement responsible, thenyou're getting good value from
that procurement, using yourpurse as a market force to
create more responsiblesuppliers, which you get credit
for, because now theircontribution to your carbon
(12:38):
footprint or your sustainabilityfootprint is going to be less.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
So before we get into the how we actually do this
sustainable procurement, Iwanted to ask you around where
the procurement can actuallytake place within an
organization.
We have a lot of listeners ofthis podcast who are folks in IT
and in operations, sort of thenon-traditional procurement
(13:06):
department, but procurementobviously is part of what they
do.
So is sustainable procurementsomething that they can have
influence over in one of theseother related departments or
does it always flow up to theoverarching corporate sort of
company procurement?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Yeah, it's both.
It's both.
If you do have a centralizedprocurement function, then
obviously they're going to bedoing that procurement on behalf
of client or user departmentsin their organization.
On the other hand, there aresome parts of the organization
that may be doing their ownprocurement without going
(13:46):
through a centralized group.
And again, they can implement asmuch or as little of these
sustainability elements intotheir processes as they feel are
appropriate.
So yeah, there's no need forthe operation to be central in
order for this to happen.
So, for example, in the federalgovernment of Canada there is a
centralized procurement groupcalled Public Service and
(14:08):
Procurement Canada PSPC, andthey do a lot of the
acquisitions on behalf of otherministries, other departments in
the government.
But groups like Shared ServicesCanada, which are the folks
with the IT responsibilities forthe government, have their own
procurement function as well,and the armed forces also have
(14:32):
theirs, for good reasons.
So even in a centralized grouplike PSPC, there are people in
other organizations, otherministries, other departments
that are also doing procurement.
The oversight of all of thathopefully has some consistency
in what they ask for and howthey ask for it, but very often
(14:56):
they have some latitude to domore than perhaps the standards
that are being used by all ofthose procurement functions
require them to do.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Okay, so you can have an influence on sustainable
procurement whether or not yousit in the overall company
organizational procurementdepartment or not.
I think that's really importantto distinguish.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yeah, especially if you frame it as a pilot, you say
let's try some of these things.
Why don't we use our department, my department, as an
opportunity's try some of thesethings.
Why don't we use our department, my department, as an
opportunity to try some of thesethings and see if it works the
way we hoped it would, what theimplications are for the
suppliers, for us as aprocurement staff, and then, if
it seems to be a good thing,maybe we can roll it out to
(15:41):
other functions, otherdepartments as well.
So, framework, as a pilot, youcan get away with murder,
calling anything a pilot.
I'll tell you, I used to dothat a lot in IBM, saying we're
just going to try something herea little different from what
the company thought was theright way to do things.
But we can try something alittle different, and it's a
wonderful way to explore ways ofdoing things that you think are
(16:05):
better.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Yeah, okay.
So start with a pilot, becauseI wanted to get into how an
organization actually does thisand I know you've created a lot
of resources that I believe arefree in order to help companies
do this.
So start with a pilot.
What would be other advice youwould give to companies to
implement this?
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah, take advantage of tools that are already out
there that you don't have toinvent again.
So if you're going to undertakethis, we talked about having
let's take the net zero part themost low carbon and circular
goods and services.
How the heck do you figure thatout?
Like what's the questionnairethat you should be asking
(16:50):
suppliers about in terms ofdetermining which supplier is
providing the most low-carbonand circular goods and services?
So I've got a tool that doesthat.
It gives you some samplegeneric specifications that you
can ask for just about anyproduct.
Example generic specificationsthat you can ask for just about
(17:10):
any product.
It doesn't matter whether it'sa computer or a desk or a
building, just basic things thatyou ask about.
And then there are a wholebunch of wonderfully free, open
source databases, publicdatabases of characteristics
that you can ask about from asustainability point of view for
other product categories anyproduct category.
(17:31):
So it's not that tricky.
It's really easy to get thosespecifications.
On the other hand, if you wantto buy from a supplier that's
most committed to reducing thegreenhouse gases in line with
science-based targets, how theheck do you do that?
So I've got a questionnaire thatyou can use.
It's an Excel-basedquestionnaire.
(17:51):
It's designed for small andmedium-sized suppliers as well
as large suppliers, because, asI think you know, most companies
in Canada are small andmedium-sized enterprises.
So very often when I'm giving atalk, I ask if I had a scroll
(18:14):
of all of the companies inCanada.
For example, what percent ofthat scroll do you think have
500 employees or less, which isour definition in Canada of a
small or medium-sized enterpriseSME and it turns out that it's
99.7% of the companies in Canadaare SMEs and if you drop that
(18:37):
threshold from 500 employeesdown to 100 employees, which is
the small category, it's 98.1%.
In the US it's 98.
In Europe it's 98.1.
In the US it's 98.
In Europe it's 98.1.
In Africa and South Americait's higher.
98% of the companies on theplanet are SMEs and SMEs usually
(19:01):
don't have the luxury of havingspecialized staff to look after
sustainability.
So we need a questionnaire thatis reasonable for them to be
able to answer but asks aboutall of the right things.
So I took a look at a lot ofthe other questionnaires that
are out there and I put togethersomething called the Net Zero
Ambition Assessment Tool.
It's free, it's open source,it's in Excel, so you can change
(19:22):
any of the questions if youwant to change them, and it's
extremely usable and it's reallygood.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
And where do we find all these resources?
Are they on your website?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
So my website, sustainabilityadvantagecom, is
where you go for all of thesethings and there's a menu at the
top.
You can go for the tools thathave to do with sustainable
procurement, or assessment toolsor reporting tools all of those
kinds of business case tools.
(19:55):
So I've got about a dozen free,open source tools, one of which
is this questionnaire forsuppliers that I mentioned.
So you don't have to make it up,it's there and you just use it
and even if you don't understandthe questions, it ends up
giving a score, a score, apercent score.
It's like a test.
You get a percent score andthen you use that percent to
(20:17):
determine how many of the pointsassociated with those
particular attributes you havein the bid appraisal and you
make sure that there are enoughpoints there that it gets.
The attention of the suppliersmakes it matter.
So the score determines whatpercent they get Done.
So there's no burden onprocurement people to figure all
(20:38):
this stuff out.
The toolkit gives them samplespecifications for the goods and
services sample questionnairefor the supplier, gives them
some sample terms and conditionsto put into the contract with
the winning supplier, and italso gives a template for a
sample bid appraisal templatethat would allow for the scores
(21:02):
on the goods and services on thesupplier to be determined how
many points they get in the bidappraisal associated with those
attributes.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
So we will link this in the show notes, because, wow,
this is.
It sounds like a lot of greattools that are free and that are
to help companies, and I amalso a firm believer do not
reinvent the wheel, especiallyin something like this.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yeah, and especially when you've got so many other
things on your plate and I wantto acknowledge that procurement
people are besieged, besieged,overworked, with all of the
demands that they get from theirclient departments or from
their own department for goodsand services that they
desperately need and needquickly, and all of that good
stuff.
So they don't have time tofigure all of this stuff out or
(21:54):
even learn about it, they justneed to be able to do it.
So this toolkit is really netzero procurement in a box.
It's a plug and play kind ofthing.
Just add these things.
You're already asking forspecifications for the products.
Add these, maybe three or kindof thing.
Just add these things.
You're already asking aboutspecifications for the products.
Add these, maybe three or fiveof these.
And you're already asking aboutthe attributes of the supplier,
(22:15):
like how long they've been inbusiness and where they are and
what their revenue is and arethey going to be around long
enough to honor their warrantyand all that kind of stuff.
These are some other questionsabout their sustainability or
greenhouse gas attributes.
So it's not that hard once youdecide to do it.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Okay, the other thing that I really liked looking at
your resources was your signalprefer require a framework where
you can actually like getstarted.
Even before you go out topurchase something, you can
signal to the market that thisis important and this is
something to start thinkingabout.
(22:59):
Can you tell us a bit aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yeah, thank you.
It's really an important aspectof how you go about doing all
of this.
So let's suppose that you're anSME and you get this
questionnaire and it'sassociated with a request for a
proposal.
So the RFP comes out and you'realso supposed to answer this
questionnaire so that they candecide how many points you get
(23:22):
for your attributes as asupplier, how many points you
get for your attributes as asupplier.
Well, that could be a prettydaunting challenge, especially
under the pressure of a deadlineto get your answer and your
response into the RFP.
So the signal idea is that yousend it to them ahead of time.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Well, you're not buying anything yet, right?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Just let them fill out the question as a dry run,
like, give them three to sixmonths to answer it, and then
that's the baseline that they'regoing to be starting from and
you may be able, as a customer,to partner with a supplier to
help them do better on thingsthat matter to both you and to
(24:02):
them.
So the idea is you send thisout to all of your suppliers,
regardless of whether there's atender associated with this that
they're going to be respondingto.
You send it out ahead of timeand give them an opportunity to
think this thing through in away that works for them and get
a score.
And if they say, look, we don'thave time, screw it, we're not
(24:25):
going to do it, that's fine,they can still bid later on.
They're just going to get zeroon that part of the bid
appraisal.
So their score is zero.
They don't get any points, butthey can still bid and they may
still win it with their thequality of their other
(24:48):
specifications and so on.
So the idea is you signal it.
So let's suppose you're you're abig, you're a big customer,
like, for example, thegovernment of Canada.
The government of Canada has alot of suppliers.
They have about three hundred,a lot of suppliers.
They have about 350,000suppliers.
(25:09):
That's a lot of suppliers.
So here's the idea they sendthis questionnaire out to all of
them, kind of blasted out there, and encourage them all to send
in their responses as sort of adiagnostic as to what's going
on in the supply chain of thegovernment around all of these
things.
And you have smart tools thathelp assess and summarize and
(25:33):
analyze all of those responsesand so on.
But it gives everybody a chanceto kind of get ready for when
there is an RFP and they have toupdate their answers at the RFP
time.
So prefer means that you give.
So the signal part is send itahead of time, tell them you're
(25:53):
going to make this matter theirquestionnaire.
They are going to get morepoints for their score if their
score is higher than theircompetitors on the questionnaire
.
So they are going to getpreferred treatment.
(26:16):
Government doesn't like to talkabout preferential treatment,
but anyway they're going to getmore points, they're going to
get more points, yeah.
They're going to get more points.
And then the required part isin the contract where you make
darn sure that any commitmentsthat they made about plans to do
better in that questionnairethey are going to be
contractually required to liveup to.
(26:37):
So that's the require part.
So signal, send it to themahead of time.
Prefer at bid appraisal time,give them a higher score because
they're scoring better thantheir competitors, and require
is just a signal that theiranswers are going to basically
(26:58):
be their marching orders whenthey win the bid and are
contracted to actually do it.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
I think that's so.
Smart Signal prefer, requireand I'm going to use that
methodology for quantum as wemove forward with our
sustainable procurement.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
I picked that up from SPLC.
I heard them doing apresentation one time and they
mentioned signal prefer require.
I thought, wow, that'sbrilliant.
That's the way to kind of slipthis in, try it out, be fair to
organizations that this is goingto be kind of new, to give them
an opportunity to figure it outwithout the pressure of a RFP
(27:35):
deadline.
I think it's really importantyeah and it's simple too.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
All right, bob, let's move into our how-to section,
formerly known as our rapid firehow-to section, but the answers
were never rapid fire.
However, if you'd like to makethem rapid fire, you're welcome
to.
Okay, the first one we havesomewhat talked about, but as
someone who would sit in a subdepartment how to encourage your
(28:02):
overall company to implementsustainable procurement or net
zero procurement, especially ifit's not quote, unquote your
area.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Right and to be fair, most procurement people are
simply doing what their clientdepartments, their user
departments, are asking them todo.
So if the user department needsa new computer system, they ask
the procurement department togo find one with the
specifications for performanceet cetera that the user
(28:33):
department needs.
The user department may notnecessarily ask about any of the
sustainability stuff relativeto what it is they're acquiring,
what it is they're acquiring.
So are the procurement peoplesupposed to figure that out or
just voluntarily add that towhatever the user department is
asking about?
It's very tricky for them to dothat unless the organization
(28:58):
already has strategic goalsrelated to the specifications
that they're going to add inthere.
So if the company itself istrying, the organization itself
is trying to reduce its carbonfootprint, then they need to be
able to engage their suppliersin doing the same thing, because
they're accountable for thesupplier's carbon footprint.
(29:21):
So if what you're asking isrelated to your organization's
overriding goals, then it'sfairly straightforward to do.
If your organization doesn'thave things like that, that's
trickier, that's trickier.
So you'll have to resort to thepilot part, the pilot ploy, to
(29:45):
say why don't we try this andsee if maybe this is going to be
good for the suppliers and goodfor us, and, by the way, one of
the reasons it's good for thesuppliers is now they've got a
score that they can share withbankers or investors or anybody
else on things that they may beasking more pointed questions
about as well.
So it's a good thing for thesuppliers to think through,
(30:05):
because if they want to starttrading with the European Union,
for example, to avoid thetariff wars we're having with
the US, the European Union isall over this stuff and they're
going to be asking much morepointed questions about the
attributes not only of the goodsand services, but of the
companies producing them, thesuppliers producing them, the
(30:31):
suppliers, right.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
I would also suggest that for someone sitting in a
sub-department.
Send them your website,sustainabilityadvantageca, and
also send them this podcast.
This is a really good roundupof what it all is and why it's
important.
Okay, one more.
One more how-to question.
Bob, I know you talk about howit's possible to eliminate
carbon footprints throughcircularity.
(30:52):
So how how to eliminate carbonfootprint through circularity?
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Good question.
In fact, you can't get to netzero unless you get into
circularity.
So if this is the company hereand their supply chain, let's
suppose you've got a tier one,tier two, tier three, tier four
supplier in your supply chain.
Circularity allows you to stayup here.
You stay around the companyitself and your tier one
(31:19):
supplier because you don't haveto.
Tier 4 suppliers are normallyresponsible for extracting the
materials, the minerals orgrowing the products that you
are going to be using in yourgoods and services.
So you don't have to do thatanymore because you're recycling
, you're reusing the parts fromprevious products.
(31:43):
So you don't have to go throughthe extraction, the refining,
the manufacture of parts and soon.
All you have to do is puttogether the parts that are
being recycled and so on.
So circularity reduces about45% of the carbon footprint of
the products, which is a hugedeal, is a huge deal.
(32:04):
And then also it helps on theother end, the user side, of the
value chain, and reduces thecarbon footprint associated with
that as well, because you'rerefurbishing the product and
that extends the life of theproduct, which is another way of
reducing the carbon associatedwith the purchasing of the
(32:29):
product, because you don't haveto purchase it.
It's already there.
So circularity is a means tothe end, the end being reduce
greenhouse gases in the systemand stop having to refine and
extract new materials for newproducts.
(32:50):
Use the existing products.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yes, as you probably know, this is what we do at
Quantum.
We reuse and recycle electronicseven reduce through repair.
And actually we have acalculator that calculates the
emissions avoidance of reusingand recycling and we see it
depends on the product type, butwe see that the emissions
(33:16):
avoidance is seven to 21 timeshigher for reuse than over even
recycling.
So basically, recycling andelectronic it's great, but if
you can reuse it in some way,shape or form or parts thereof,
it is seven to 21 times betterfrom an emissions standpoint.
Yeah, powerful data to backthat up.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Fantastic, Fantastic.
And just building on that, Ihad a conversation with the
procurement people in amunicipality a few months ago
and it was my first conversationwith them.
So I said so are you doing anysustainable procurement kinds of
activities?
Long pause, and then she saidwell, yeah, yeah, yeah, we send
(34:05):
all of our used computers to theschool boards.
I said, oh, great, great, great, Anything else?
She said no, no, that's aboutit.
So when you ask me what's thedefinition of sustainable
procurement, a lot of peoplehave very mixed impressions as
to what that is asking about andwhat it would look like if you
(34:28):
saw it.
So I'm continuing my dialoguewith them to help them explore
additional ways in which theycan have more sustainable
procurement.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Yeah, there's lots of opportunities these days for
circular opportunities.
So we also saw, too, that atthe recent Canadian Circular
Economy Summit where we met,that there seems to be a shift
overall.
Of course, it's happening morewithin certain organizations
than others, but there certainlyis a shift in companies caring
(35:04):
about not just sustainabilitybut circularity, and it felt
like for many years we've beendoing heavy lifting around the
education of why it's importantto ensure the right thing
happens, especially withelectronics.
What we deal with, thatrecycling is a great option, but
reuse is even better if it'spossible.
It's possible to wipe data andnot just destroy the whole
(35:27):
device anymore, and we saw thatthere were companies finally
coming to us like looking forsolutions, like already being
educated and understanding thisis important stuff, and so we
were really pleased.
It seems to be a change in theoverall what would you call it?
(35:51):
There's a groundswell ofcompanies actually understanding
this now, and so we'reoptimistic.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
I agree.
I'm on the Circular InnovationCouncil board in Canada as well
and they do a lot of work onthis and they were involved in
the organization of thatconference that we met at.
And I agree that there is anawakening of the business
community to the benefits ofcircularity, not only for the
(36:26):
environment but for them as well.
And that's great.
And in fact, because I seecircularity as a necessary
cousin to a lot of the net zerostuff, I have tools that look at
both of those things, bothcircularity and net zero,
because they need each other.
(36:47):
So I'm encouraging thecircularity folks, for example,
to piggyback on the net zeroinitiatives so that they can
alert these organizations to thebenefits of that, not only from
a greenhouse gas reductionpoint of view, but also just
from a business point of view.
(37:08):
It's really, really smart.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
And all those tools that that's also on your website
as well, Bob Yep.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Yeah, they're all there.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Okay, great.
So after this podcast for allthe listeners, it's well worth
your time to go tosustainabilityadvantagecom.
All right, Bob, we have talkedfor a long time here and we
always finish off with one lastpiece of advice to wrap this up.
So what would your piece ofadvice?
Speaker 2 (37:32):
be.
I wrote a book about how to bea leader and the business
practices, leadership practicesassociated with being a leader.
One of the seven leadershippractices that I really
encourage if you're trying tochange something, is meet them
(37:53):
where they are.
So if you're trying to get yourcompany to pay attention to
sustainable procurement, netzero procurement, social
procurement or whatever, findout what they're already
prioritizing and show how whatyou're recommending is going to
help meet those goals, thosestrategies, those priorities.
So, for example, you may beaware that the government of
(38:17):
Canada just put out the mandateletter.
There used to be mandate lettersthat go out to all the
ministries when a new governmentwins an election.
This time it was one letter, itwas for everybody and it has
seven priorities, very, verytight priorities.
None of them mentioned climatechange.
(38:37):
Oh damn, you know, for Carneyto have such a huge background
on the importance of gettingclimate change under control, it
was kind of disappointing andsurprising.
But I thought, ok, fine, how cannet zero procurement enable the
(38:59):
seven priorities that he has?
So I've taken the mandateletter and beside each of those
priorities, I've shown how netzero procurement implemented not
only at the federal level butprovincial level and municipal
level packaged so that it's areal nice package in a box, how
that would be the means to theends of those priorities.
(39:23):
So relate whatever we're askingto the existing priorities, as
opposed to positioning it as onemore darn thing to worry about
because they don't have thatluxury.
So we need to be smarter atdoing that to re-swizzle what
we're doing as not an end initself but as a means to ends
(39:44):
that already are important andexist.
I think we need to be a lotsmarter at that and help people
see that we're not in any waytrying to detract from their
priorities.
We're trying to help them reachthe goals associated with those
.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
So meet them where they're at and help them to
achieve their goals.
What I hear is integrationthey're at and help them to
achieve their goals.
What?
I hear, is integration You'retaking the net zero procurement
ideas and integrating it, and soit's not standalone as well.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
And you reframe them and, frankly, a lot of that
experience comes from every yearin IBM Canada, we would get our
marching orders from IBMcorporate as to what we're
supposed to be paying attentionto each year and we had our own
things that we wanted to payattention to, but as soon as we
(40:36):
saw theirs, we showed how payingattention to ours would help
them reach theirs.
So it's reframing theinitiatives that you want to
undertake as being supportive ofthe initiatives that they want
you to undertake.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Bob, thank you so much for your time today, for
sharing your wisdom and yourexpertise over all these years
and, frankly, I feel hopeful andinspired as well from today,
and I will be taking a look atyour resources, so thank you
again.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Well, thank you for the opportunity, and you know,
as a father and a grandfather,I'm concerned about this, not
from an academic point of view,but for my real future of the
lifestyles of my family.
I think we are poised to beable to pull this off, to be
able to do the things that needto be done, not only on climate,
but some other things as well.
(41:26):
To be able to pull this off, tobe able to do the things that
need to be done, not only onclimate, but some other things
as well.
We just have to be smarterabout how we connect the dots
between what we want them to doand the things that we think are
important to do as a mother, Icompletely agree, and I just got
goosebumps.
So we're going to do this.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
We're going to do this and remember, if you're
looking for a partner inelectronic circularity, we'd
love to chat Head on over toquantumlifecyclecom and contact
us.
This is a Quantum Lifecyclepodcast and the producer is
Sanjay Trivedi.
Thank you for being a circularfuture champion in your company
and beyond.
Logging off.
One of the biggest ways to make a difference is to
vote with your wallet.
So how can companies buy betterfor a more sustainable future?
Welcome to the Circular Future,your access to thought leaders
and innovations to help you be abusiness sustainability
champion, even if it's not yourcore job.
(00:21):
I'm your host, stephanieMcLarty, head of Sustainability
at Quantum Lifecycle Partners,where we close the loop for
(00:44):
electronics.
The truth is, if we keep buyingthe same stuff in the same way
as we always have, we will getthe same result.
It reminds me of a definitionof insanity.
So today we're unpackingsustainable procurement and how
companies can implement it.
(01:05):
With me is Bob Willard, founderand chief sustainability
champion at SustainabilityAdvantage.
Bob is a leading expert onsustainability justifications,
reporting frameworks andsustainable procurement.
Over the last 23 years he hasgiven over 1,800 presentations,
(01:26):
has authored six books andpublished two white papers, and
I know you've been on manypodcasts as well.
We're fortunate to have himhere, as I would personally
describe Bob as a legend in ourspace.
So welcome to the podcast, bob.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Wow, what a generous introduction.
Thanks a lot.
Looking forward to this.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Well, we really appreciate having you here to
share your wisdom and all ofyour expertise.
So, Bob, I know there'll be alot of listeners who might be
familiar with you.
There may be some who aren't.
So let's start with our firstquestion, which is what would be
three things that the worldwouldn't necessarily know about
the work that you do atSustainability Advantage?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Well, first of all, I am Sustainability Advantage.
I'm just a sole proprietor, sowhat you're looking at is the
whole organization.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Amazing.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
A couple of things.
Most people know that I had aprevious life in IBM.
I worked for IBM Canada for 34years and people assumed that I
was doing something to do withsustainability or procurement in
my time at IBM and I hadnothing to do with those things.
I was in marketing, I was inleadership development, I was in
(02:40):
management at various levels inthe organization, product
support, etc.
Management and various levelsin the organization, product
support, et cetera.
From a procurement point ofview, I was on the supplier side
of the equation, so I wasresponding to RFPs put out by
customers, some from the publicsector, some from the private
sector.
So my experience in IBM had todo more with leadership and how
(03:04):
to be a good supplier toorganizations.
One other thing that people maynot be aware of is I really try
to walk the talk on a lot of thethings I'm advocating for with
organizations and I decided afew years ago that I tried to
get my carbon footprint undercontrol.
So I decided to see how close Icould get to net zero and I
(03:28):
entered the Canadian net zerochallenge and it was an
interesting experience.
I started to realize that mostof my carbon footprint was
coming from my travel either inmy car or in the plane, in
planes.
So I decided to take the leapand I stopped flying just before
(03:52):
COVID actually not as a resultof COVID, but I just stopped
flying Try it for a year.
And I haven't flown for thelast five years and I don't
think I ever will, because Iused to fly all over the world
doing talks.
As you mentioned before, I do alot of talks, so I was in Europe
and India and China andAustralia and New Zealand and
(04:13):
they was all fantastic I meangreat trips.
But I decided to stop flyingand I also decided to get an
electric vehicle, a plug-inelectric vehicle.
My carbon footprint is now zeroand I intend to keep it that
way.
I take the train and I also usebullfrog power and bullfrog
(04:36):
natural gas, so I'm carbonneutral without using offsets.
It's kind of nice to be able tosay it's doable once you put
your mind to it, Once you makethat decision, which is the
hardest part.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Well, and, bob, I think that's part of the reason
why your work is sowell-respected, because you
actually walk the talk, and Ifeel like we could probably do a
whole podcast episode on thethings you've learned going next
zero.
But today I want to pick yourbrain about sustainable
procurement, and I want to getstarted, because I feel like
(05:12):
some listeners may know whatthat means, others may not, so
let's sort of level the playingfield.
What does sustainableprocurement actually mean?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah, great question, because it's an expression
that's used quite often and veryoften with different meanings
behind the use.
So I'm on the board of theSustainable Purchasing
Leadership Council, splc, andthe definition that they use for
sustainable procurement is thatsustainable procurement is
getting best value for moneywhen you're purchasing the most
(05:46):
sustainable goods and servicesfrom the most sustainable
suppliers in support of yourorganization's priorities and
purpose and strategic goals.
So it's looking at not only theattributes of the products, the
goods and services, but alsothe attributes of the company
that's producing those goods andservices the suppliers.
(06:07):
So that's the definition and,as we get into assessing how
it's going for organizations, weassess the extent to which they
are taking both of those thingsinto account the attributes of
the goods and services, as wellas the attributes of the goods
and services, as well as theattributes of the suppliers and
making sure that their scores onthose things matter when you're
(06:32):
doing the bid appraisals.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Now I know you talk a lot about net zero procurement
and there's also circularprocurement, so how similar or
different are they fromsustainable procurement?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, lots of little different adjectives in front of
procurement.
So I think of sustainableprocurement as the umbrella, the
umbrella term, and underneaththat are what the Canadian
government calls greenprocurement, looking after the
environmental attributes ofgoods and services.
(07:08):
There's also social procurementunderneath that umbrella, so
paying attention to whether theorganization is a women-led
organization or indigenous-ledorganization or a social
enterprise, that kind of thingas well, or a social enterprise
that kind of thing as well.
And underneath greenprocurement there's net zero
procurement, circularprocurement.
(07:29):
So there's subsets.
Sustainable procurement is theumbrella term and the others are
subsets of that.
So when we look at net zeroprocurement, the definition of
net zero procurement is sort ofa riff off the definition of
sustainable procurement.
(07:49):
So it's getting the most of thebest value from purchasing the
most low carbon and circulargoods and services From
suppliers who are most committedto reducing the greenhouse
gases In support of thecompany's goals, priorities and
purpose.
So again, it's looking at theattributes of the goods and
(08:13):
services and the supplier, butonly looking at the greenhouse
gas and circularity dimensionsof that, not the whole ball of
wax, just the climate-relatedattributes of the goods and
services and the suppliers.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Okay, I feel like I can picture it now, which I
never could before, withsustainable procurement being
the umbrella and then theadjectives falling underneath it
.
But, regardless, you've got thetwo aspects which is the
product or the service, and howsustainable or green or circular
that is, and the company, aswell as the other aspect, to
(08:58):
look at.
There are a lot of aspects forcompanies to look at these days,
and I mean sustainability is ahuge one, but I feel like
companies are dealing with somuch.
It's such an unprecedentedbusiness environment for
uncertainty.
Tariffs seems to be the word of2025.
Why, bob, should a companyfocus on sustainable procurement
when there's all these otherthings that a company should
(09:20):
worry about too?
Right, that a?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
company should worry about too, right?
So if they, as a company, careabout sustainability and if
they've got strategic goalsrelative to that for themselves
not for their suppliers, but forthemselves then they'll find
that they can't meet those goalsunless they engage the
suppliers, because they'reaccountable for the impacts that
their suppliers have on theenvironment and on society.
(09:44):
They're mutually accountablefor those things.
It used to be, they weren't.
These days they are.
So you can't outsource thedirty stuff and get away with
that anymore.
People want to know what'shappening in the rest of your
value chain as a result of theproduction of your goods and
services, or the use of yourgoods and services, or the
disposition at the end of lifeof those goods and services, or
(10:05):
the use of your goods andservices, or the disposition at
the end of life of those goodsand services.
So you need to keep track ofall that stuff, and especially
from a greenhouse gasperspective.
We talk about the carbonfootprint of the products which
gets into the supply chaincontribution to the carbon
that's embedded, embodied in thegoods and services, as well as
(10:29):
the greenhouse gases that areemitted when you use those goods
and services.
So if you're manufacturing cars, then you need to take those
into account.
So the old days when you justhad to worry about your own
impacts are the good old daysfor a lot of companies.
(10:49):
Right now, they are going nutstrying to be more responsible,
not only in their own operations, but ensuring that they're
dealing with suppliers who arealso responsible.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yeah, the supply chain aspect is so huge, and I
think too there's a lot of waysthat coming at it with a
sustainable lens actually helpsyou be a better resilient
business anyways.
I mean, the studies show andthere's a recent study where
about half of companies reportedreducing cost and increasing
(11:22):
revenue as a result of theirsustainability initiatives so it
can be integrated right.
It's not just one or the other.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yeah, and strangely, a lot of people think that
sustainable procurement or netzero procurement is going to
make the goods and services moreexpensive.
It's actually the opposite veryoften.
Uh, you save money and makemore money.
Uh, if your goods and servicesare more sustainable or if
(11:53):
they're net zero, if they'redecarbonized.
So, as we get into the benefitsof all of this, um, people are
usually pleasantly surprised, orjust surprised that it's not
going to be that more expensive.
You get best value, notnecessarily the best price, but
you get the best value Becauseif you are meeting your company
(12:16):
goals by procuring fromsuppliers who are more
responsible, then you're gettinggood value from that
procurement responsible, thenyou're getting good value from
that procurement, using yourpurse as a market force to
create more responsiblesuppliers, which you get credit
for, because now theircontribution to your carbon
(12:38):
footprint or your sustainabilityfootprint is going to be less.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
So before we get into the how we actually do this
sustainable procurement, Iwanted to ask you around where
the procurement can actuallytake place within an
organization.
We have a lot of listeners ofthis podcast who are folks in IT
and in operations, sort of thenon-traditional procurement
(13:06):
department, but procurementobviously is part of what they
do.
So is sustainable procurementsomething that they can have
influence over in one of theseother related departments or
does it always flow up to theoverarching corporate sort of
company procurement?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Yeah, it's both.
It's both.
If you do have a centralizedprocurement function, then
obviously they're going to bedoing that procurement on behalf
of client or user departmentsin their organization.
On the other hand, there aresome parts of the organization
that may be doing their ownprocurement without going
(13:46):
through a centralized group.
And again, they can implement asmuch or as little of these
sustainability elements intotheir processes as they feel are
appropriate.
So yeah, there's no need forthe operation to be central in
order for this to happen.
So, for example, in the federalgovernment of Canada there is a
centralized procurement groupcalled Public Service and
(14:08):
Procurement Canada PSPC, andthey do a lot of the
acquisitions on behalf of otherministries, other departments in
the government.
But groups like Shared ServicesCanada, which are the folks
with the IT responsibilities forthe government, have their own
procurement function as well,and the armed forces also have
(14:32):
theirs, for good reasons.
So even in a centralized grouplike PSPC, there are people in
other organizations, otherministries, other departments
that are also doing procurement.
The oversight of all of thathopefully has some consistency
in what they ask for and howthey ask for it, but very often
(14:56):
they have some latitude to domore than perhaps the standards
that are being used by all ofthose procurement functions
require them to do.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Okay, so you can have an influence on sustainable
procurement whether or not yousit in the overall company
organizational procurementdepartment or not.
I think that's really importantto distinguish.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yeah, especially if you frame it as a pilot, you say
let's try some of these things.
Why don't we use our department, my department, as an
opportunity's try some of thesethings.
Why don't we use our department, my department, as an
opportunity to try some of thesethings and see if it works the
way we hoped it would, what theimplications are for the
suppliers, for us as aprocurement staff, and then, if
it seems to be a good thing,maybe we can roll it out to
(15:41):
other functions, otherdepartments as well.
So, framework, as a pilot, youcan get away with murder,
calling anything a pilot.
I'll tell you, I used to dothat a lot in IBM, saying we're
just going to try something herea little different from what
the company thought was theright way to do things.
But we can try something alittle different, and it's a
wonderful way to explore ways ofdoing things that you think are
(16:05):
better.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Yeah, okay.
So start with a pilot, becauseI wanted to get into how an
organization actually does thisand I know you've created a lot
of resources that I believe arefree in order to help companies
do this.
So start with a pilot.
What would be other advice youwould give to companies to
implement this?
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah, take advantage of tools that are already out
there that you don't have toinvent again.
So if you're going to undertakethis, we talked about having
let's take the net zero part themost low carbon and circular
goods and services.
How the heck do you figure thatout?
Like what's the questionnairethat you should be asking
(16:50):
suppliers about in terms ofdetermining which supplier is
providing the most low-carbonand circular goods and services?
So I've got a tool that doesthat.
It gives you some samplegeneric specifications that you
can ask for just about anyproduct.
Example generic specificationsthat you can ask for just about
(17:10):
any product.
It doesn't matter whether it'sa computer or a desk or a
building, just basic things thatyou ask about.
And then there are a wholebunch of wonderfully free, open
source databases, publicdatabases of characteristics
that you can ask about from asustainability point of view for
other product categories anyproduct category.
(17:31):
So it's not that tricky.
It's really easy to get thosespecifications.
On the other hand, if you wantto buy from a supplier that's
most committed to reducing thegreenhouse gases in line with
science-based targets, how theheck do you do that?
So I've got a questionnaire thatyou can use.
It's an Excel-basedquestionnaire.
(17:51):
It's designed for small andmedium-sized suppliers as well
as large suppliers, because, asI think you know, most companies
in Canada are small andmedium-sized enterprises.
So very often when I'm giving atalk, I ask if I had a scroll
(18:14):
of all of the companies inCanada.
For example, what percent ofthat scroll do you think have
500 employees or less, which isour definition in Canada of a
small or medium-sized enterpriseSME and it turns out that it's
99.7% of the companies in Canadaare SMEs and if you drop that
(18:37):
threshold from 500 employeesdown to 100 employees, which is
the small category, it's 98.1%.
In the US it's 98.
In Europe it's 98.1.
In the US it's 98.
In Europe it's 98.1.
In Africa and South Americait's higher.
98% of the companies on theplanet are SMEs and SMEs usually
(19:01):
don't have the luxury of havingspecialized staff to look after
sustainability.
So we need a questionnaire thatis reasonable for them to be
able to answer but asks aboutall of the right things.
So I took a look at a lot ofthe other questionnaires that
are out there and I put togethersomething called the Net Zero
Ambition Assessment Tool.
It's free, it's open source,it's in Excel, so you can change
(19:22):
any of the questions if youwant to change them, and it's
extremely usable and it's reallygood.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
And where do we find all these resources?
Are they on your website?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
So my website, sustainabilityadvantagecom, is
where you go for all of thesethings and there's a menu at the
top.
You can go for the tools thathave to do with sustainable
procurement, or assessment toolsor reporting tools all of those
kinds of business case tools.
(19:55):
So I've got about a dozen free,open source tools, one of which
is this questionnaire forsuppliers that I mentioned.
So you don't have to make it up,it's there and you just use it
and even if you don't understandthe questions, it ends up
giving a score, a score, apercent score.
It's like a test.
You get a percent score andthen you use that percent to
(20:17):
determine how many of the pointsassociated with those
particular attributes you havein the bid appraisal and you
make sure that there are enoughpoints there that it gets.
The attention of the suppliersmakes it matter.
So the score determines whatpercent they get Done.
So there's no burden onprocurement people to figure all
(20:38):
this stuff out.
The toolkit gives them samplespecifications for the goods and
services sample questionnairefor the supplier, gives them
some sample terms and conditionsto put into the contract with
the winning supplier, and italso gives a template for a
sample bid appraisal templatethat would allow for the scores
(21:02):
on the goods and services on thesupplier to be determined how
many points they get in the bidappraisal associated with those
attributes.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
So we will link this in the show notes, because, wow,
this is.
It sounds like a lot of greattools that are free and that are
to help companies, and I amalso a firm believer do not
reinvent the wheel, especiallyin something like this.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yeah, and especially when you've got so many other
things on your plate and I wantto acknowledge that procurement
people are besieged, besieged,overworked, with all of the
demands that they get from theirclient departments or from
their own department for goodsand services that they
desperately need and needquickly, and all of that good
stuff.
So they don't have time tofigure all of this stuff out or
(21:54):
even learn about it, they justneed to be able to do it.
So this toolkit is really netzero procurement in a box.
It's a plug and play kind ofthing.
Just add these things.
You're already asking forspecifications for the products.
Add these, maybe three or kindof thing.
Just add these things.
You're already asking aboutspecifications for the products.
Add these, maybe three or fiveof these.
And you're already asking aboutthe attributes of the supplier,
(22:15):
like how long they've been inbusiness and where they are and
what their revenue is and arethey going to be around long
enough to honor their warrantyand all that kind of stuff.
These are some other questionsabout their sustainability or
greenhouse gas attributes.
So it's not that hard once youdecide to do it.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Okay, the other thing that I really liked looking at
your resources was your signalprefer require a framework where
you can actually like getstarted.
Even before you go out topurchase something, you can
signal to the market that thisis important and this is
something to start thinkingabout.
(22:59):
Can you tell us a bit aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yeah, thank you.
It's really an important aspectof how you go about doing all
of this.
So let's suppose that you're anSME and you get this
questionnaire and it'sassociated with a request for a
proposal.
So the RFP comes out and you'realso supposed to answer this
questionnaire so that they candecide how many points you get
(23:22):
for your attributes as asupplier, how many points you
get for your attributes as asupplier.
Well, that could be a prettydaunting challenge, especially
under the pressure of a deadlineto get your answer and your
response into the RFP.
So the signal idea is that yousend it to them ahead of time.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Well, you're not buying anything yet, right?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Just let them fill out the question as a dry run,
like, give them three to sixmonths to answer it, and then
that's the baseline that they'regoing to be starting from and
you may be able, as a customer,to partner with a supplier to
help them do better on thingsthat matter to both you and to
(24:02):
them.
So the idea is you send thisout to all of your suppliers,
regardless of whether there's atender associated with this that
they're going to be respondingto.
You send it out ahead of timeand give them an opportunity to
think this thing through in away that works for them and get
a score.
And if they say, look, we don'thave time, screw it, we're not
(24:25):
going to do it, that's fine,they can still bid later on.
They're just going to get zeroon that part of the bid
appraisal.
So their score is zero.
They don't get any points, butthey can still bid and they may
still win it with their thequality of their other
(24:48):
specifications and so on.
So the idea is you signal it.
So let's suppose you're you're abig, you're a big customer,
like, for example, thegovernment of Canada.
The government of Canada has alot of suppliers.
They have about three hundred,a lot of suppliers.
They have about 350,000suppliers.
(25:09):
That's a lot of suppliers.
So here's the idea they sendthis questionnaire out to all of
them, kind of blasted out there, and encourage them all to send
in their responses as sort of adiagnostic as to what's going
on in the supply chain of thegovernment around all of these
things.
And you have smart tools thathelp assess and summarize and
(25:33):
analyze all of those responsesand so on.
But it gives everybody a chanceto kind of get ready for when
there is an RFP and they have toupdate their answers at the RFP
time.
So prefer means that you give.
So the signal part is send itahead of time, tell them you're
(25:53):
going to make this matter theirquestionnaire.
They are going to get morepoints for their score if their
score is higher than theircompetitors on the questionnaire
.
So they are going to getpreferred treatment.
(26:16):
Government doesn't like to talkabout preferential treatment,
but anyway they're going to getmore points, they're going to
get more points, yeah.
They're going to get more points.
And then the required part isin the contract where you make
darn sure that any commitmentsthat they made about plans to do
better in that questionnairethey are going to be
contractually required to liveup to.
(26:37):
So that's the require part.
So signal, send it to themahead of time.
Prefer at bid appraisal time,give them a higher score because
they're scoring better thantheir competitors, and require
is just a signal that theiranswers are going to basically
(26:58):
be their marching orders whenthey win the bid and are
contracted to actually do it.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
I think that's so.
Smart Signal prefer, requireand I'm going to use that
methodology for quantum as wemove forward with our
sustainable procurement.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
I picked that up from SPLC.
I heard them doing apresentation one time and they
mentioned signal prefer require.
I thought, wow, that'sbrilliant.
That's the way to kind of slipthis in, try it out, be fair to
organizations that this is goingto be kind of new, to give them
an opportunity to figure it outwithout the pressure of a RFP
(27:35):
deadline.
I think it's really importantyeah and it's simple too.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
All right, bob, let's move into our how-to section,
formerly known as our rapid firehow-to section, but the answers
were never rapid fire.
However, if you'd like to makethem rapid fire, you're welcome
to.
Okay, the first one we havesomewhat talked about, but as
someone who would sit in a subdepartment how to encourage your
(28:02):
overall company to implementsustainable procurement or net
zero procurement, especially ifit's not quote, unquote your
area.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Right and to be fair, most procurement people are
simply doing what their clientdepartments, their user
departments, are asking them todo.
So if the user department needsa new computer system, they ask
the procurement department togo find one with the
specifications for performanceet cetera that the user
(28:33):
department needs.
The user department may notnecessarily ask about any of the
sustainability stuff relativeto what it is they're acquiring,
what it is they're acquiring.
So are the procurement peoplesupposed to figure that out or
just voluntarily add that towhatever the user department is
asking about?
It's very tricky for them to dothat unless the organization
(28:58):
already has strategic goalsrelated to the specifications
that they're going to add inthere.
So if the company itself istrying, the organization itself
is trying to reduce its carbonfootprint, then they need to be
able to engage their suppliersin doing the same thing, because
they're accountable for thesupplier's carbon footprint.
(29:21):
So if what you're asking isrelated to your organization's
overriding goals, then it'sfairly straightforward to do.
If your organization doesn'thave things like that, that's
trickier, that's trickier.
So you'll have to resort to thepilot part, the pilot ploy, to
(29:45):
say why don't we try this andsee if maybe this is going to be
good for the suppliers and goodfor us, and, by the way, one of
the reasons it's good for thesuppliers is now they've got a
score that they can share withbankers or investors or anybody
else on things that they may beasking more pointed questions
about as well.
So it's a good thing for thesuppliers to think through,
(30:05):
because if they want to starttrading with the European Union,
for example, to avoid thetariff wars we're having with
the US, the European Union isall over this stuff and they're
going to be asking much morepointed questions about the
attributes not only of the goodsand services, but of the
companies producing them, thesuppliers producing them, the
(30:31):
suppliers, right.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
I would also suggest that for someone sitting in a
sub-department.
Send them your website,sustainabilityadvantageca, and
also send them this podcast.
This is a really good roundupof what it all is and why it's
important.
Okay, one more.
One more how-to question.
Bob, I know you talk about howit's possible to eliminate
carbon footprints throughcircularity.
(30:52):
So how how to eliminate carbonfootprint through circularity?
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Good question.
In fact, you can't get to netzero unless you get into
circularity.
So if this is the company hereand their supply chain, let's
suppose you've got a tier one,tier two, tier three, tier four
supplier in your supply chain.
Circularity allows you to stayup here.
You stay around the companyitself and your tier one
(31:19):
supplier because you don't haveto.
Tier 4 suppliers are normallyresponsible for extracting the
materials, the minerals orgrowing the products that you
are going to be using in yourgoods and services.
So you don't have to do thatanymore because you're recycling
, you're reusing the parts fromprevious products.
(31:43):
So you don't have to go throughthe extraction, the refining,
the manufacture of parts and soon.
All you have to do is puttogether the parts that are
being recycled and so on.
So circularity reduces about45% of the carbon footprint of
the products, which is a hugedeal, is a huge deal.
(32:04):
And then also it helps on theother end, the user side, of the
value chain, and reduces thecarbon footprint associated with
that as well, because you'rerefurbishing the product and
that extends the life of theproduct, which is another way of
reducing the carbon associatedwith the purchasing of the
(32:29):
product, because you don't haveto purchase it.
It's already there.
So circularity is a means tothe end, the end being reduce
greenhouse gases in the systemand stop having to refine and
extract new materials for newproducts.
(32:50):
Use the existing products.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yes, as you probably know, this is what we do at
Quantum.
We reuse and recycle electronicseven reduce through repair.
And actually we have acalculator that calculates the
emissions avoidance of reusingand recycling and we see it
depends on the product type, butwe see that the emissions
(33:16):
avoidance is seven to 21 timeshigher for reuse than over even
recycling.
So basically, recycling andelectronic it's great, but if
you can reuse it in some way,shape or form or parts thereof,
it is seven to 21 times betterfrom an emissions standpoint.
Yeah, powerful data to backthat up.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Fantastic, Fantastic.
And just building on that, Ihad a conversation with the
procurement people in amunicipality a few months ago
and it was my first conversationwith them.
So I said so are you doing anysustainable procurement kinds of
activities?
Long pause, and then she saidwell, yeah, yeah, yeah, we send
(34:05):
all of our used computers to theschool boards.
I said, oh, great, great, great, Anything else?
She said no, no, that's aboutit.
So when you ask me what's thedefinition of sustainable
procurement, a lot of peoplehave very mixed impressions as
to what that is asking about andwhat it would look like if you
(34:28):
saw it.
So I'm continuing my dialoguewith them to help them explore
additional ways in which theycan have more sustainable
procurement.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Yeah, there's lots of opportunities these days for
circular opportunities.
So we also saw, too, that atthe recent Canadian Circular
Economy Summit where we met,that there seems to be a shift
overall.
Of course, it's happening morewithin certain organizations
than others, but there certainlyis a shift in companies caring
(35:04):
about not just sustainabilitybut circularity, and it felt
like for many years we've beendoing heavy lifting around the
education of why it's importantto ensure the right thing
happens, especially withelectronics.
What we deal with, thatrecycling is a great option, but
reuse is even better if it'spossible.
It's possible to wipe data andnot just destroy the whole
(35:27):
device anymore, and we saw thatthere were companies finally
coming to us like looking forsolutions, like already being
educated and understanding thisis important stuff, and so we
were really pleased.
It seems to be a change in theoverall what would you call it?
(35:51):
There's a groundswell ofcompanies actually understanding
this now, and so we'reoptimistic.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
I agree.
I'm on the Circular InnovationCouncil board in Canada as well
and they do a lot of work onthis and they were involved in
the organization of thatconference that we met at.
And I agree that there is anawakening of the business
community to the benefits ofcircularity, not only for the
(36:26):
environment but for them as well.
And that's great.
And in fact, because I seecircularity as a necessary
cousin to a lot of the net zerostuff, I have tools that look at
both of those things, bothcircularity and net zero,
because they need each other.
(36:47):
So I'm encouraging thecircularity folks, for example,
to piggyback on the net zeroinitiatives so that they can
alert these organizations to thebenefits of that, not only from
a greenhouse gas reductionpoint of view, but also just
from a business point of view.
(37:08):
It's really, really smart.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
And all those tools that that's also on your website
as well, Bob Yep.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Yeah, they're all there.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Okay, great.
So after this podcast for allthe listeners, it's well worth
your time to go tosustainabilityadvantagecom.
All right, Bob, we have talkedfor a long time here and we
always finish off with one lastpiece of advice to wrap this up.
So what would your piece ofadvice?
Speaker 2 (37:32):
be.
I wrote a book about how to bea leader and the business
practices, leadership practicesassociated with being a leader.
One of the seven leadershippractices that I really
encourage if you're trying tochange something, is meet them
(37:53):
where they are.
So if you're trying to get yourcompany to pay attention to
sustainable procurement, netzero procurement, social
procurement or whatever, findout what they're already
prioritizing and show how whatyou're recommending is going to
help meet those goals, thosestrategies, those priorities.
So, for example, you may beaware that the government of
(38:17):
Canada just put out the mandateletter.
There used to be mandate lettersthat go out to all the
ministries when a new governmentwins an election.
This time it was one letter, itwas for everybody and it has
seven priorities, very, verytight priorities.
None of them mentioned climatechange.
(38:37):
Oh damn, you know, for Carneyto have such a huge background
on the importance of gettingclimate change under control, it
was kind of disappointing andsurprising.
But I thought, ok, fine, how cannet zero procurement enable the
(38:59):
seven priorities that he has?
So I've taken the mandateletter and beside each of those
priorities, I've shown how netzero procurement implemented not
only at the federal level butprovincial level and municipal
level packaged so that it's areal nice package in a box, how
that would be the means to theends of those priorities.
(39:23):
So relate whatever we're askingto the existing priorities, as
opposed to positioning it as onemore darn thing to worry about
because they don't have thatluxury.
So we need to be smarter atdoing that to re-swizzle what
we're doing as not an end initself but as a means to ends
(39:44):
that already are important andexist.
I think we need to be a lotsmarter at that and help people
see that we're not in any waytrying to detract from their
priorities.
We're trying to help them reachthe goals associated with those
.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
So meet them where they're at and help them to
achieve their goals.
What I hear is integrationthey're at and help them to
achieve their goals.
What?
I hear, is integration You'retaking the net zero procurement
ideas and integrating it, and soit's not standalone as well.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
And you reframe them and, frankly, a lot of that
experience comes from every yearin IBM Canada, we would get our
marching orders from IBMcorporate as to what we're
supposed to be paying attentionto each year and we had our own
things that we wanted to payattention to, but as soon as we
(40:36):
saw theirs, we showed how payingattention to ours would help
them reach theirs.
So it's reframing theinitiatives that you want to
undertake as being supportive ofthe initiatives that they want
you to undertake.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Bob, thank you so much for your time today, for
sharing your wisdom and yourexpertise over all these years
and, frankly, I feel hopeful andinspired as well from today,
and I will be taking a look atyour resources, so thank you
again.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Well, thank you for the opportunity, and you know,
as a father and a grandfather,I'm concerned about this, not
from an academic point of view,but for my real future of the
lifestyles of my family.
I think we are poised to beable to pull this off, to be
able to do the things that needto be done, not only on climate,
but some other things as well.
(41:26):
To be able to pull this off, tobe able to do the things that
need to be done, not only onclimate, but some other things
as well.
We just have to be smarterabout how we connect the dots
between what we want them to doand the things that we think are
important to do as a mother, Icompletely agree, and I just got
goosebumps.
So we're going to do this.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
We're going to do this and remember, if you're
looking for a partner inelectronic circularity, we'd
love to chat Head on over toquantumlifecyclecom and contact
us.
This is a Quantum Lifecyclepodcast and the producer is
Sanjay Trivedi.
Thank you for being a circularfuture champion in your company
and beyond.
Logging off.
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