July 10, 2024 • 47 mins
Did you know that the foothills of the Rocky Mountains in Alberta are home to incredibly valuable ecological landscapes? Sometimes called the current of the continent, three major river basins extend from this area, with some of the water going to Hudson Bay, the Gulf of Mexico, and the Pacific Coast. This week we head back to western Canada to talk with Executive Director Katie Morrison and Conservation Science & Programs Manager Josh Killeen of the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society’s (CPAWS) Southern Alberta Chapter.
With the confluence of the mountains in the west, the grasslands to the east, and boreal forests in the north, there is a wide range of diversity in Alberta’s Rocky Mountains, including a 50 kilometer strip of forest that holds an incredible amount of biodiversity. In addition to the amazing nature in Alberta, the province also has a long history of natural resource extraction — especially as it hosts the fourth largest forestry industry in Canada. Josh and Katie take us on a tour of the region they work in, and set the stage to understand challenges facing these areas. What does forest management look like, and what are its impacts?
Learn more about Josh and Katie's work on the CPAWS Southern Alberta Chapter's website and support a future for the Highwood here.
Make sure to check out the show notes on the podcast webpage for more links and helpful resources.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jan Sumner (00:00):
Welcome to the Clear Cut.
Hi, I'm Janet Sumner, ExecutiveDirector at Wildlands League.
Kaya Adleman (00:08):
And I'm Kaya Adelman, Carbon Manager at
Wildlands League.
Jan Sumner (00:14):
Wildlands League is a Canadian conservation
organization working onprotecting the natural world.
Kaya Adleman (00:21):
The Clear Cut is bringing to you the much needed
conversation on Canadian forestmanagement and how we can better
protect one of Canada's mostimportant ecosystems, as our
forests are reaching a tippingpoint.
Jan Sumner (00:40):
Okay, we got a chance to sit down with my
favorite hunter.
Okay, we got a chance to sitdown with my favorite hunter.
Kaya Adleman (00:46):
Not something that you would expect coming out of
the mouth of an environmentalist, huh yeah.
Jan Sumner (00:51):
Well, katie is, unapologetically, a hunter and
fisher and she'll tell you inthis episode where she gets her
main source of meat.
Katie's knowledge of the landis so incredible and that's
because she spends time on theland.
And this is one of the otherthings.
When I worked, when I was doingcaribou conservation planning
(01:11):
in Alberta most of that was inthe north, but I remember I was
working and this was usuallyindustry folks who were out
there hunting and fishing on theland.
But when I was working withthem, their knowledge of the
land was so incredible becauseit's just an integral part of
how they live and how theyaccess their food sources.
And what's great about Katie isthat she hunts and fishes and
(01:34):
gets her food sources from theland and it gives her a
perspective and a knowledge ofthe land that is so incredible.
And then Katie is a colleagueof mine because Wildlands League
is affiliated with the CanadianParks and Wilderness Society
and we're going to be speakingto the Southern Alberta
Executive Director at theCanadian Parks and Wilderness
(01:57):
Society in Southern Alberta.
Kaya Adleman (01:59):
Yeah, I'm excited to do that, and we're also
joined by Josh Killeen, who isthe Conservation Science and
Programs Manager.
Jan Sumner (02:08):
The conversation with Josh is also good because
he used to work for industry.
So this is you'll get aworldview into this, but it's
not northern Alberta that we'retalking about this time.
It's southern Alberta and wehave yet to focus there, and so
I think this is going to be agreat conversation as well,
because we get to know a littlebit about the Rockies and what's
happening with forestry there,and so I think this is going to
be a great conversation as well,because we we get to know a
little bit about the Rockies andwhat's happening with forestry
(02:29):
there.
Kaya Adleman (02:30):
Yeah, I agree I I'm excited for this episode and
it definitely makes me missspending time out there.
It's a quite a beautiful placeto be, if you ever get the
chance to go.
Jan Sumner (02:41):
Yeah, I was.
I was just out there recentlyand it's breathtaking,
Absolutely breathtaking.
So let's go ahead.
Well, kaya, I'm excited thismorning because we are going to
be talking to Katie and Josh,who are from Alberta, and for
(03:03):
some of our listeners they maynot know that I worked in
Alberta.
I wasn't necessarily livingthere, but I was traveling back
and forth to Alberta as we weredeveloping caribou conservation
plans with many of the forestindustry companies who operate
in Alberta.
Now, this was caribouconservation, so it was northern
Alberta.
The conversation today is goingto be about southern Alberta,
but I've worked with Katie inparticular for a number of years
(03:26):
, and Josh actually in adifferent context, on caribou
conservation.
So we'll get into that in alittle bit as we go along, but
I'm looking forward to theconversation around the Rocky
Mountains.
Kaya Adleman (03:38):
Yeah, me too.
Do you guys want to introduceyourselves for our listeners?
Katie Morrison (03:45):
Sure, I'm Katie Morrison.
I'm the executive director ofthe Southern Alberta chapter of
CEPAWS, the Canadian Parks andWilderness Society, so CEPAWS,
southern Alberta.
Our mission is to protect andconserve the vital ecological
functions of public lands andwaters here in Southern Alberta,
so we work on freshwaterconservation as well as public
(04:10):
lands, whether that's protectedareas, management of protected
areas or management oflandscapes that are unprotected,
but we still want to see themmanaged with nature as a
priority.
Jan Sumner (04:21):
And you're based in Calgary, right.
Is that correct?
And you're based in calgary,right, is that?
Is that correct in calgary?
And I just want to honor thefact that you're also under a
severe water shortage right now,with uh challenges uh ongoing
in the city of calgary.
Katie Morrison (04:35):
So we are.
It has been two weeks that wehave severe water restrictions,
um, and it looks like it'll beanother three to five, so it's
it's a eye-opening experience ofwhat our water future could
look like.
You know, the water shortageright now is because of a water
main brink, but I every daythink about, you know, the
future of our water, and I'msure we'll talk more about that.
Jan Sumner (04:57):
Yeah, definitely, Josh.
A little bit about you andyou're not in Calgary.
Josh Killeen (05:02):
Yeah, I live in Edmonton.
My name is Josh Killeen.
I'm from the UK originally, butI moved out to Alberta about 10
years ago.
I'm a biologist by training.
I went to university in Londonin England, and then also in
France and the Netherlands formy MSc degree, and then I moved
out to Alberta and spent anumber of years working for a
(05:25):
consultancy company, workingprimarily with forestry
companies on forest managementplanning and also with the
provincial government on caribourange planning, which is where
we met, of course.
And yeah, now I work with theCanadian Blacks and Bord Society
and the Conservation Scienceand Programs Manager with
(05:46):
Southern Alberta Charlton.
Jan Sumner (05:49):
Yeah, I worked sitting at tables, as I
mentioned, on caribouconservation, and Josh was
usually sitting on the otherside of the table providing data
and analysis as a contractor toindustry, as a consulting
service.
Contracted to industry as aconsulting service, but I got to
say, and also for governments.
But I got to say I thought itwas a real coup when Katie was
able to get Josh to join theteam at Southern Alberta.
(06:12):
So I'm very pleased to see yousitting on this side of the
table, even though we'revirtually separated.
Josh Killeen (06:19):
Absolutely yeah, it's been really exciting for me
as well.
Jan Sumner (06:23):
So, Katie, I know something about you that, I
think, is you know that not alot of people assume that
environmentalists are hunters,are out there fishing those
kinds of things, and Katie oftenwill talk about that.
In fact, I was just in meetingsin Camorra and she was talking
about trapping etc.
(06:43):
I won't mention which speciesis an invasive, but maybe you
could just talk about that alittle bit.
Katie Morrison (06:53):
Yeah, so I didn't grow up in Alberta, but
my family has been in Albertafor many generations and really
connected to the land.
And one of the ways that Ireally connect with the places
that I work and the places thatI live is through hunting and
fishing.
And for me, you know, hunting,particularly because it is such
(07:14):
a major food source for me Isource, you know, most of my
meat that I eat throughout theyear myself.
For me, that's a reallyprofound connection to a
landscape when, um, I have tounderstand, uh, how that system
works really well, to be able tounderstand the animals on the
system and be able to to huntthose those animals, um, but it
(07:38):
also means that I'm I'm, youknow, fueling myself throughout
the year with something thatcame from these landscapes and
for me that's it's a, you know,circular really strong
connection.
I feel this really strongconnection to the land because
I'm hunting and harvesting myfood there and the process of
(07:58):
hunting and harvesting that foodalso makes me understand and
connect to those landscapes evenmore.
I also fish a lot, and so theareas that we'll talk about
today are also areas that I do alot of fishing.
It's, you know, up in theeastern slopes the fishing is
(08:20):
all catch and release becausethe species are threatened,
federally listed as threatenedbut that too is something that I
can see, those changes on thelandscape when I'm out fishing.
It's very personal for me thework that we do because of the
(08:40):
connection that I have to theseplaces through hunting and
fishing, and you must have anextended community as well that
you, I mean.
Jan Sumner (08:46):
you're just not out there by yourself, right?
You'll see other people who arehunting and fishing and you get
a chance to connect to peoplewho are also on the land and
land users.
Katie Morrison (08:57):
Yeah, I have a good community.
Some of that is family that mybrother, my older brother,
particularly hunts, so I'll huntwith him, Um, but also a good
community of folks who um areare out hunting and fishing the
lands and really connected tocaring about and conserving
these places because they havethose connections.
Um, I'm on the board of anorganization called Back Into
(09:21):
Hunters and Anglers and I'm nowon the North America board and
the Canada board.
I helped start the Albertachapter about eight years ago
and that's an organization ofhunters and anglers that are
entirely focused on maintainingfoot access, maintaining
sustainable access to places toallow us to continue hunting and
(09:44):
fishing, and also conservingthese really important
landscapes so that we cancontinue to harvest food and
enjoy nature through hunting andfishing.
Jan Sumner (09:58):
Thank you for telling that story.
I think it's really importantto have those words out there in
the world and thatenvironmentalist
conservationists not bepigeonholed into these narrow
definitions, and so thanks forsharing that, josh.
I'm going to turn to you next.
And are you a hunter and fisher, or are you a computer geek?
(10:18):
Or maybe a combination of both?
I don't know.
Josh Killeen (10:22):
More of a computer geek than a hunter, but I did
grow up on a farm but maybe Ican tell you a little bit kind
of why I ended up with seaportsand what that means to me.
Because, as I mentioned, I grewup in England and one of the
things about England is abeautiful place but it doesn't
have many wild spaces like wehave in Alberta and in Canada in
(10:43):
general like we have in Albertaand in Canada in general.
And one of the things thatreally struck me very hard when
I first came to Alberta andstill today is how much
incredible wilderness there ishere.
And what a special thing that isto still have those places,
which are truly wild.
And for me, that was one of thethings that I saw when I was
(11:06):
kind of working in myconsultancy job.
That was that, even though wehave these amazing places, we
kind of take them for grantedand we continue to believe or to
tell ourselves that we can kindof have everything all the time
everywhere and still have thesewild places.
And what I saw from theforestry perspective was, you
(11:27):
know, that that just isn'treally true, that there's always
a trade-off, there's always acompromise, and often it's the
environmental side of thingsthat bears the brunt of that
compromise and, uh, and sothat's why I ended up with
seapores, because, um, you know,I wanted to be able to make a
meaningful difference, toactually protect the wild places
(11:48):
that we have here while westill can, um, and to make sure
that we have them going forwardfor for the future I think it
would be good for listeners tohave the context of why there is
a CEPA's Southern Albertachapter versus a Northern
(12:09):
Alberta chapter.
Kaya Adleman (12:10):
Are there differences in the conservation
efforts in the ecology,landscapes, etc.
Katie Morrison (12:18):
Yeah, I mean it's a little bit of a
historical approach.
So CEPA's as an organization,our chapters have always grown
from grassroots movements and somost CPAS chapters, or most
provinces, have one CPAS chapterthat covers the province.
But both the Alberta chapterswere formed in the 60s and at
(12:41):
that time there were just sortof two different grassroots
organizations or grassrootsmovements that then created two
separate C-plus chapters and wehave always just then maintained
those two chapters.
But you know there's enoughwork in the province for two
chapters to cover.
So we kind of roughly split ourarea around Red Deer, which is
(13:07):
the middle of the province-ishit's actually a little bit
farther south than the middleand the southern Alberta chapter
covers roughly the Red DeerRiver south.
The northern Alberta chaptercovers the Red Deer into the
boreal.
So in the south we're dealingmore with Rocky Mountains,
eastern front of the RockyMountains, we're dealing a lot
(13:28):
more with headwaters, landscapeswith foothills and prairie
landscapes, whereas in the norththey're dealing a lot in boreal
issues.
Jan Sumner (13:39):
Because I was reminded yesterday as I was
describing to somebodyinternationally who was working
on mapping and I was saying well, it's right in the middle of
British Columbia, right here,and he's like where's British
Columbia?
So maybe you could just situateAlberta for some of our
international listeners, Becausethe podcast now enjoys being
(14:01):
heard in six continents andwe're still holding out for
Antarctica, but we're in sixcontinents and we're still
holding up for Antarctica, butwe're on six continents.
So maybe you could just explainwhere the heck Alberta is.
Katie Morrison (14:11):
Yeah, I mean Alberta is in Western Canada and
I think most people have heardof the Rocky Mountains, so the
Rocky Mountains are whatseparate Alberta from British
Columbia.
So we are in the West and a lotof the work that we do is in
those Rocky Mountains and inthose foothills of the Rocky
Mountains so really valuablelandscapes from so many
(14:32):
perspectives which we can getinto.
But it's a Western province.
It is a natural resourcedependent province.
Historically we have reallyfocused our economy on oil and
gas, forestry, mining thosepieces, and so there's, when we
(14:55):
start talking about naturalresource management, there's
sort of a different history andculture, I would say, in how we
think about these things inAlberta which is changing as we
progress as a province and aseconomies change.
But we're certainly a provincerooted in natural resource
management or natural resourceexploitation.
Jan Sumner (15:16):
Yeah, and what you're doing in the Rockies is
also very much related to the USas well, right, because you've
got this north-south with theYukon to Yellowstone, that that
Rocky Mountain range goes quitea ways, and just maybe set that
in context so people understandits connectivity to the rest of
the continent.
Katie Morrison (15:37):
Yeah, I mean we work in Southern Alberta but we
actually end up working acrossjurisdictions quite a bit,
whether that's across the B, theBC side, or down into Montana,
which is directly south of us,because those ecosystems cross
those boundaries.
It's, you know, there's not aUS-Canada border where suddenly
(15:58):
the wildlife stop moving or thewater doesn't flow or, you know,
those things are all connectedacross those jurisdictional
boundaries.
And the area that we work inactually is sometimes called the
crown of the continent and it'san area where three major river
basins extend from.
So some of the water goes tothe Hudson's Bay, some goes to
(16:19):
the Gulf of Mexico and some goesto the Pacific Coast, which
makes it really uniqueecologically but also really
interesting jurisdictionally,because what happens in that
landscape is affected by andaffects often these
trans-boundary issues across theborders provincial borders,
(16:39):
municipal borders, first Nationsborders, but also the
international border if I wereto tap into the lay person in
canada.
Kaya Adleman (16:55):
When they think about calgary or southern
alberta, they don't really thinkabout forestry so much.
Um, could you maybe talk alittle bit about the forestry or
forest management that happensin southern alberta?
Katie Morrison (17:09):
yeah, well, I just start describing the
landscape and then maybe joshcan talk about.
You know, the forestry thatgoes on in that landscape.
So you know I mentioned thatthat a lot of where we're
working and a lot what we'retalking about is the is the
rocky mountains.
So it's the east front of therocky mountains, um, which is
this really um unique and andcool landscape, because we've
(17:31):
got the prairies that come upand then meet sort of a fescue
foothills grassland system thatgoes up into a montane and
subalpine alpine system, allwithin a pretty short distance.
So you know, when you have theRocky Mountains, you might think
(17:52):
of those, you know, like big,beautiful peaks.
And we're talking the stuffthat's just on the east of the
more forested.
It's a largely coniferousforest but really diverse.
When I was talking earlier abouthow we're situated in this
(18:12):
crown of the content landscape,with those three major
watersheds, it's also sort of aconvergence of those three major
ecosystems and so we get a realhuge range of diversity in that
system because of theconfluence of the different
ecosystems meeting in this crownof the continent landscape in
(18:33):
the Rocky Mountains.
So it's, I mean visually, it iswhat you think of when you
think of Alberta or when youthink of the Rocky Mountains,
and then that thin strip offorest is only about, you know,
50 kilometers wide from thoserocky peaks out into that
(18:54):
grassland.
So it's actually this reallythin area of forest that holds
that incredible biodiversityvalue, that amazing tourism
value because of that iconiclandscape.
It has a lot of value becauseof that in sustainable economies
(19:14):
, whether that is ranching inthat foothills landscape or
tourism and outfitting guiding,hunting and fishing guiding.
But one of the really keypieces of this landscape it is
the headwaters of the prairies,including Alberta but all the
(19:35):
way into Saskatchewan andManitoba.
So 90% of the water between 80and 90% of the water that is
used by all those downstreamcommunities, those millions of
people who live downstream,comes from this little thin
strip of about 50 kilometerswide in this region and that
fuels our agriculture, ourindustry, our drinking water.
(20:01):
It's just this incrediblyimportant resource that we don't
treat as this incrediblyimportant resource.
We don't treat as thisincredibly important resource.
We treat it sort of as an areato extract for the short-term
value.
So maybe I'll turn it over toJosh to sort of talk about
(20:22):
forestry, particularly in thisregion, although we're also
dealing with you know forestryand some oil and gas and post
coal mines and you know there'sa lot of you know unsustainable
recreation, motorized recreationparticularly.
There's a lot of threats tothis landscape and the water
resource in this landscape.
But I'll let Josh talk aboutforestry.
Josh Killeen (20:44):
Yeah, so forestry in Alberta is the fourth largest
industry, like across Canada byprovince, so behind Ontario,
quebec and BC.
And you're right that most ofthe forestry that takes place in
Alberta is primarily in theboreal.
That's the biggest producer oflumber and pulp by far.
But there is also quite a bitof forestry in southern Alberta
(21:09):
too and, as Katie was describing, it's in this strip of forest
that we have in between themountains and the prairies and
there's kind of two forestmanagement agreements.
So those are a tenure thatcompanies have on provincial
land for harvesting timber thatare in this southern part and in
(21:32):
the scheme of Alberta forestry.
They're quite small, probablyonly about 2%, 2.5% of the total
cut that happens in theprovince, but their impact is
really large.
And this is kind of going backto what Katie was saying, that
it's hard to overstate theimportance of this landscape
from all these differentperspectives biodiversity, water
(21:54):
, recreation and tourism.
But at the same time we havethis forest industry in this
same small area which is under alot of pressure from a lot of
different avenues and it has areally big impact.
And so we've come to this placewhere it's very difficult or
impossible to have the scale ofindustry that we have in the
(22:19):
same place, while alsomaintaining all those other
ecological and social valuesthat we have that are so
important to us.
And so that's, you know, that'skind of where we're trying to
navigate is is how do we improvethat situation?
Jan Sumner (22:36):
So let me get this.
I just want to make sure I getthis right.
So you've got the rockies,which are this great big peak.
You've got a thin strip offorestry which is maybe 50
kilometers.
Then, as you're heading downthe mountain, you run into that
forest and then eventually itbecomes grasslands, it becomes
the big prairie, um, and alldifferent kinds of grasses, et
cetera, where you have andhaving traveled that landscape,
(22:58):
you have a lot of ranches.
So the water starts out at thetop, it's in those glaciers,
it's in those big rivers andit's flowing down that and it's
going through that forest, goingthrough that grassland, it's
going to some of the ranchers,but it ends up, if you're going
eastward, it ends up going intoHudson Bay, right, and that's
(23:19):
where we're working onprotection for all the creatures
in the ocean there.
And the other thing that itdoes is it goes south and it's
going to go all the way to theGulf of Mexico and I imagine
it's going to go through a fairnumber of towns and cities and
places where they have farms andagriculture and people who
(23:40):
depend on that fresh water.
And how we manage that thinstrip is going to determine the
water quality and theavailability of water for people
east and south of it, but alsoto the west, going into Pacific.
Is that correct?
Katie Morrison (24:01):
Yeah, I mean the continental divide that divides
Alberta and BC is sort of wherethat water divides.
So most of the water that comesfrom Alberta is not crossing
that continental divide into thePacific, but that sort of
region when I talked about thatcrown of the continent region,
(24:21):
the Tri-Peaks, which is actuallyin Montana, is part of that
whole system and flows that way.
Some conflicts when we talkabout mining, particularly coal
mining, when they take a top offa mountain, if that is part of
the continental divide, that canactually then mess up how that
water flows and get water thatwould have been flowing into the
(24:45):
Alberta side then flowing intothe Pacific, the BC side.
Jan Sumner (24:51):
So no small task when you talk about managing
this fresh water so that it canprovide livelihoods and health
and benefits all across thecontinent.
Katie Morrison (25:02):
really, quite frankly, that's an enormous job
and some of those really, reallydry areas you know, southern
Alberta is one of the mostdrought-prone areas is one of
the most drought-prone areas andso that sort of contrast
between the importance of waterin this thin strip.
(25:23):
The need for water downstreamis so high but we're not sort of
making decisions on thislandscape as if that is true and
that that's the water that isproviding our entire agriculture
industry, our ranching industry, our communities.
Josh Killeen (25:41):
I think that's a really important point, that
this is a very drought pronesystem in southern Alberta, but
it's also the largest irrigatedfarmland area in Canada and it's
also the drinking water foreveryone who lives in Southern
Alberta, which is a reallyrapidly growing population and,
as you mentioned, then crossingall these boundaries into other
(26:01):
provinces, into the US and so on, and so the importance of the
region is just so high that itmeans that we really have to be
smart about protecting it in thefuture and looking after it in
the future, because if we failto do that, the implications
would be huge.
Jan Sumner (26:28):
Yeah, so we've done a number of podcasts Now.
We've talked to people inBritish Columbia, we've talked
to people in Atlantic Canada andOntario, where we have some
expertise, and I'm veryinterested to sort of figure out
the forestry that's happeningin southern Alberta.
You talk about being coniferdominant, but not necessarily
just exclusively.
What kind of forestry gets donethere?
(26:50):
We know that in Ontario we havefull tree harvesting forestry
gets done there.
We know that in Ontario we havefull tree harvesting.
When we spoke with Dr PeterWood about forestry in British
Columbia he very much relayedthe history of forestry there,
that actually in policy and infact it's a planned policy to
move natural forests intomanaged forests, that's actually
(27:13):
what the current policyframework is in british columbia
.
That is the stated purpose.
So and to feed the mills,basically.
So what's the?
What are we dealing with inalberta?
What's the?
And specific to southernalberta, what is the policy
framework or how is itapproached?
Because i's different.
Josh Killeen (27:32):
Yeah, it's certainly a similar story,
though in that it's very muchdriven by that timber supply as
the first priority for theindustry and indeed for the
government regulator.
So you know, forestry has beengoing on for quite a long time
in southern Alberta, but itreally got going in earnest in
(27:53):
its modern form kind of in the60s, 70s onwards, and we had the
Forest Act, which is a Albertapiece of legislation that was
produced in the 70s to governhow forestry would proceed in
the region, and that piece oflegislation really set out the
(28:13):
idea that that timber supply wascoming first, that we were
managing for a sustained yieldof timber going forward, and
that was the priority.
And that's in quite starkcontrast to the policies that
surround the eastern slopes, thearea that we've described,
which have generally, at leastin principle, taken the idea
(28:36):
that the water, the biodiversity, the recreation, that those
things are really priorities.
And so there's this conflictbetween some of the different
aspects of policy andlegislation in the province and
the result of that has been thatthe forest industry has
continued to kind of move downthis path of focusing on
(28:58):
extraction and having thoseecological and social values be
ultimately secondary to that.
And so, while things havechanged significantly since the
1970s and there's certainly moreawareness and more
incorporation of other valuesbeyond timber.
It's still the case that thattimber supply is the priority,
that's what's coming first, andour other values are sort of
(29:20):
seen as constraints on thattimber supply instead of
something that we'reprioritizing and that we're
putting first.
And that really puts us in atough position, because what
we've continually seen is thatwe've had environmental
degradation as a result in theSouth.
Jan Sumner (29:40):
Can you maybe expand on that and the reason I'm
asking about the environmentaldegradation?
We've got a podcast coming outshortly about the EU which is
looking at a procurement policythat says they won't take fiber,
pulp and paper from areas withdegradation or deforestation.
(30:01):
And Canada for anybody whohasn't listened to some of the
episodes deforestation isinternationally defined not by
having no forest there, butactually having a land use
change.
So moving from a forest wherewe have forestry to, for example
, a shopping mall or a newsuburban development kind of
(30:22):
thing that are changing it intoa city boundary, that kind of
thing would be a land use change.
But degradation is definitelysomething Canada has to get its
head around, because we'reseeing new laws coming up in the
US.
We're seeing the UK has a newlaw and this EU degradation
directive.
So can you speak to that, josh,in terms of maybe how you see
(30:43):
degradation happening in thisforest?
Josh Killeen (30:46):
Yeah, I think you make a really great point there
that we don't technically domuch deforestation in this
region.
When it comes to forestry,we're replanting the trees after
harvest, but what we'rereplanting isn't the same forest
that was there before.
That's the key difference.
That's the degradation, andtypically what's done is that
(31:08):
there's a move towards plantinga more monoculture conifer stand
after harvest, and so there's aloss of some of the diversity
in the system and we move fromhaving a very complex forest
with a lot of structuraldiversity and a lot of
complexity in how it functionsto something which is much more
(31:32):
simplified where we havetypically a monoculture stand of
conifer which is going to growfast and produce as much timber
in the least amount of time andproduces much timber, you know,
in the least amount of time.
And that's the goal of theforestry process is to actually
create more timber more quickly,not to have a forest which is
(31:55):
as healthy and biodiverse andresilient as possible.
So that's kind of that keydifference between, yeah,
deforestation and degradation.
And there's no doubt that we'reseeing significant degradation
in our forests and one of theclearest indicators of that is
species at risk.
And I know on this podcastyou've talked a lot about
(32:17):
caribou as an example of that,but in the south we also have
several species at risk nativetrout species like the Westlip
cutthroat trout and the bulltrout, risk native trout species
like the Westlet cutthroattrout and the bull trout and
those populations are decliningextremely rapidly and forestry
is a big influence on that.
And so we know, you know, fromthose things, from tracking what
(32:40):
happens to populations ofspecies like those, that we're
not doing a good enough job atlooking after these ecosystems.
Kaya Adleman (32:51):
Could you get into maybe, how specifically
forestry practices are?
Causing the decline of thesespecies.
Josh Killeen (33:00):
Yeah, definitely.
So.
What happens in the widerwatershed has a huge impact on
the, on the aquatic ecosystem,and that's in a number of ways,
so one of the the biggest onesis through erosion and
sedimentation.
So we see that when the, whenwe do clear-cut harvesting on
the landscape and when we buildall these roads into these um,
(33:20):
into these relativelyundisturbed places that often
have quite steep and ruggedterrain in this region, that
there's a lot of erosionpotential and a lot of
sedimentation then comes offthose roads, off those cut
blocks, and it ends up goinginto the water, it goes into the
streams and the creeks and thatflows down into the bigger
rivers.
And trout don't do well withsedimentation.
(33:43):
It has a huge impact on theirability to survive and reproduce
and it's a huge influence onthe population declines that we
see.
And then, at the same time, weoften see things like warming
waters as well.
So when we remove the forestcover, that often increases the
(34:04):
water temperature, particularlyin those smaller creeks that
feed into the bigger rivers, andour native trout are really
adapted to very cold and cleanwater.
And so when we end up withwarmer water, which is much more
impacted by erosion andsedimentation, that's really a
double whammy for the nativetrout, and they have a really
(34:24):
hard time coping with that.
But I think I'll also let Katiejump in on this, because I'm
sure she has a little bit to addas well.
Katie Morrison (34:34):
I can talk about fish all day.
So yeah, I mean the nativetrout, as Justin mentioned, are
really adapted to theseecosystems and they need cold,
clean, connected and complexsystems.
So they need cold water, asJosh mentioned, and when we
remove riparian cover or coverup the landscape, that can kind
(34:57):
of increase those temperaturesand potentially increase the
water temperature andpotentially increase the water
temperature.
The clean, as Josh mentioned,the sedimentation connected.
When you put a bunch of roadsand culverts over these streams,
there's a chance that fish willnot move as easily through them
or bridges over.
(35:18):
That could be a visualdisturbance and then complex, so
they they lay their eggs um inin these like rocky, pebbly um
stream bottoms and when you geta bunch of sedimentation that
covers that over, it createslike almost like a cement, a
thick um cement at the bottom ofthe streams and that complexity
(35:40):
that allows them to lay theireggs and have those eggs sort of
hidden and staying wherethey're supposed to be on the
bottom of that complex floor.
They're much more easily washedaway in that.
The other piece that sort of hasa landscape influence is when
water comes off, so you knowwhen you have clearing of of the
(36:06):
forest in these uh, landscapes,uh, and then when water or when
snow melts in the spring, um,the snow melts much faster, um,
and and so all that water sortof runs off the landscape rather
than seeping into the landscapeand trickling off throughout
the rest of the year.
So we have higher runoff in thespring, when we don't want
(36:30):
higher runoff, when we'realready at risk of floods.
And then when August comes andwe need that water, in the
streams and in our communitiesthere's less water available
because it already all ran offin the spring.
But that also affects trout who, you know.
When you get that big runofftemps or runoff in the spring,
(36:51):
that can, you know, change thebank's stability and, you know,
maybe even create more erosionand sedimentation and then later
in the summer, if your streamsare really low, they're going to
be warmer and less availablefor fish to move.
So I think it's people don'toften think about this, you know
like big landscape disturbanceand how that affects water.
(37:13):
But but in this landscapeparticularly so connected
between what we do on the landand how that impacts aquatic
health and then our ability touse the water downstream as well
.
Kaya Adleman (37:27):
I'm just thinking with warmer water.
Would increased levels ofdissolved oxygen also be an
issue for fish?
Katie Morrison (37:36):
Absolutely that's.
Part of it is temperature BothWest Slope cutthroat trout and
bull trout.
They need their water quitecool, so you're looking at no
more than 16 or 18 degreesCelsius.
Once you get above that itstarts to become a stress on
(37:59):
their system and part of that isabsolutely the oxygen that's in
the water become a stress ontheir system, and part of that
is absolutely the oxygen that'sin the water, Would you so?
Jan Sumner (38:13):
I know that in a boreal system, caribou are often
considered a bellwether of howhealthy the system is.
Are any of these species whatyou would consider?
Something that kind of givesyou a measure or an indicator on
how well this ecosystem isdoing?
Katie Morrison (38:29):
Yeah, I think absolutely, you know, because
they need that clean and coolwater.
How we are treating ourlandscapes is reflected in the
water.
How we are treating ourlandscapes is reflected in the
water and then you know thefish's ability to survive in
that is a reflection of thehealth of that entire system.
(38:50):
So, yeah, we do often talkabout them as an indicator
species and they're not doingwell.
You know, we have three speciesof native trout, two of them in
the south the West LopeCutthroat Trout and Bull Trout,
which is our provincial fish.
And then there's AthabascaRainbow Trout, which is a little
bit farther north in theAthabasca system.
(39:12):
But all three of those BullTrout and West Lope Cutthroat
Trout are federally threatenedand Athabasca Rainbow Trout is
federally endangered.
So if we are treating them asthat canary in the coal mine or
that indicator of landscapehealth, I think it's telling us
that we are not doing right bythis landscape, that we need to
(39:33):
be changing the way we managefor these species, for
biodiversity, but also forourselves, because we rely on
that water just as much.
Jan Sumner (39:42):
So it's a bit of a warning system that says, hey,
time to get your act together.
So can you describe some of thework that you're doing to
influence decision-making?
And you can talk about forestry, because, ultimately, we're
here to talk about the forest,but you can talk about forestry.
(40:03):
You can talk because we'reultimately, we're here to talk
about the forest, but you cantalk about forestry.
You could talk about, uh, asyou said, there's a coal mining,
there's various other thingsthat go on in these, these areas
that also compromise thenatural um ecosystems and and
threatened species.
Josh Killeen (40:21):
Do you want to dive in with a summary, katie,
and maybe I can then addsomething on the forestry side
of things.
Katie Morrison (40:28):
Yeah, so, as I mentioned, there's a there's
sort of a lot that goes on inthis landscape.
You know Josh mentioned earlierthat for more than a hundred
years our policy has alwaysreflected that that water is the
most important value of thislandscape.
But that's not reflected inmanagement or you know, all the
other acts and legislation andpolicy that overlaps that which
(40:51):
tends to take priority.
So it is quite a busy landscape.
There is a threat of new coalmines in the south there's not
any active coal mines.
In the north slopes there aresome, but you know, threat of
new coal mines from some policychanges that the provincial
government made a few years agothat are now currently on pause,
(41:16):
with one exception, which iscomplicated Because it should
also be on pause, um,complicated, um, because it
should also be on pause, um, butyou know, threat of coal mines,
uh, forestry, uh, and all theroading that comes with forestry
exploration roads for mining,uh, for oil and gas.
There is, you know, some oiland gas extraction, um, there is
(41:40):
a lot of, um, motorizedrecreation on the landscape,
which is also a threat to thewater quality, and threat to
fish, again, because of thosenew roads and new trails maybe
not built in the right placesthat create sedimentation and
crossing of streams, busylandscape that we do need to get
(42:07):
a handle on, because we can'thave all of these activities
happening in this place andexpect that the ecosystem will
continue to function as itshould.
Josh Killeen (42:20):
So on the forestry side of things, some of the
things that we're working on areto, at an overall level, to try
and influence government tomodernize and improve the Forest
Act so that we can move awayfrom this timber supply first
model to an ecosystem functionfirst and a social values first
(42:42):
model and have timber supply bea part of that but not the
driving force behind it.
So that's kind of the longerterm goal that we're working
toward.
But one of the campaigns thatwe're working directly on at the
moment is in an area called theupper highwood, and so this is
in this kind of transition zonethat we've been talking about
(43:04):
between the peaks of the Rockiesand going down into the
forested area, and it's right inbetween a bunch of different
protected areas and this is kindof this sliver of unprotected
landscape where there's still asignificant forestry presence
and it's really a stunning area.
(43:25):
I'd love to be able to show youa picture of it right now.
Jan Sumner (43:28):
it's just this beautiful area, um that, if
you've ever been to, albertdescribe it to us, josh, tell us
, tell us why it's beautiful,sure, yeah?
Josh Killeen (43:36):
yeah.
So, um, if you're, if you'redriving into the mountains on on
highway 40, um, you're kind of,uh, going through this, this
landscape that gets more andmore rugged as you get towards
the mountains, more and morechanges in topography and you
have this beautiful rollingforest, um, that you're, that
you're passing through, and thenin the background you have
(43:57):
those enormous peaks that are soemblematic of the Alberta
Rockies and, yeah, it's just astunning place.
And this particular area isrelatively untouched by
development.
There's no oil and gas in there.
There's been very littleforestry in there.
There was a little bit back inthe 1960s, but it was relatively
(44:19):
minor, and so it's this quitespecial, quite untouched place,
was relatively minor, and soit's this quite special, quite
untouched place and it also hashuge value for native trout.
It has a really important bulltrout population and lots of
folks like Katie go out therefishing, go out there angling,
and it's just a beautiful placeto be.
That has a lot of value andmeaning to lots of people in the
(44:41):
area.
And unfortunately, this reallylarge swathe of it is set to be
clear-cut, and it was actuallyplanned to be clear-cut last
year, but ourselves and a numberof other organizations, and
particularly led by a grassrootsgroup in the area, were able to
force a pause in this plan tokind of reassess whether this is
(45:07):
really what we should be doingin this place.
So that's a campaign that we'vebeen working really hard on,
both from a point of view ofraising awareness with the
public, of putting pressure onindustry and on politicians
putting pressure on industry andon politicians but also on
doing a bunch of scientific workas well to try and better
(45:29):
assess just how it's used bynative trout and what its value
is to native trout as well, andso that's some ongoing work that
we're doing.
Jan Sumner (45:44):
I think that what comes across in this episode and
what you can hear in Katie'svoice is her absolute love and
understanding of the land,telling of what she sees
(46:06):
happening on the land and herexperience of that, because she
has such good firsthandknowledge and understanding of
it.
So, yeah, I really, reallyenjoyed learning about the
eastern slopes and and thoseareas of the rockies that are so
important for water andthinking.
And it's what do they say?
It's the most irrigated and themost drought prone part of
Canada.
Kaya Adleman (46:26):
I think it's also 80 to 90% of the water is used
by all those downstreamcommunities from those
headwaters.
I think they were saying soyeah, that's crazy.
Jan Sumner (46:36):
Yeah, definitely something to think about.
Kaya Adleman (46:38):
Yeah, I personally learned a lot this episode.
The fact that you have allthese ecosystems that are all
coming together, you have themountains, you have the prairies
, you have forests in the north,and the fact that there's this
50 kilometer strip of forest inthis area that holds just this
credible amount of biodiversityis really special and kudos to
(47:01):
Josh and Katie for doing thework that they're doing to
protect it.
And we have a really excitingconversation second part of our
conversation coming up, sodefinitely stay tuned for that
next week.
Jan Sumner (47:12):
Yeah, if you like listening to the Clear Cut and
want to keep the content coming,support the show.
It would mean a lot to Kaya andI.
The link to do so will be inthe episode description below.
Kaya Adleman (47:27):
You can also become a supporter by going to
our website atwwwwildlandsleagueorg.
Slash the clear cut and alsomake sure to leave us a review
on your favorite podcaststreaming platform.
It would really help thepodcast and stay tuned for new
episodes by following us onsocial media.
Jan Sumner (47:48):
That's at Wildlands League on Instagram, twitter and
Facebook or LinkedIn, of course.
Kaya Adleman (47:54):
See you next time.
Welcome to the Clear Cut.
Hi, I'm Janet Sumner, ExecutiveDirector at Wildlands League.
Kaya Adleman (00:08):
And I'm Kaya Adelman, Carbon Manager at
Wildlands League.
Jan Sumner (00:14):
Wildlands League is a Canadian conservation
organization working onprotecting the natural world.
Kaya Adleman (00:21):
The Clear Cut is bringing to you the much needed
conversation on Canadian forestmanagement and how we can better
protect one of Canada's mostimportant ecosystems, as our
forests are reaching a tippingpoint.
Jan Sumner (00:40):
Okay, we got a chance to sit down with my
favorite hunter.
Okay, we got a chance to sitdown with my favorite hunter.
Kaya Adleman (00:46):
Not something that you would expect coming out of
the mouth of an environmentalist, huh yeah.
Jan Sumner (00:51):
Well, katie is, unapologetically, a hunter and
fisher and she'll tell you inthis episode where she gets her
main source of meat.
Katie's knowledge of the landis so incredible and that's
because she spends time on theland.
And this is one of the otherthings.
When I worked, when I was doingcaribou conservation planning
(01:11):
in Alberta most of that was inthe north, but I remember I was
working and this was usuallyindustry folks who were out
there hunting and fishing on theland.
But when I was working withthem, their knowledge of the
land was so incredible becauseit's just an integral part of
how they live and how theyaccess their food sources.
And what's great about Katie isthat she hunts and fishes and
(01:34):
gets her food sources from theland and it gives her a
perspective and a knowledge ofthe land that is so incredible.
And then Katie is a colleagueof mine because Wildlands League
is affiliated with the CanadianParks and Wilderness Society
and we're going to be speakingto the Southern Alberta
Executive Director at theCanadian Parks and Wilderness
(01:57):
Society in Southern Alberta.
Kaya Adleman (01:59):
Yeah, I'm excited to do that, and we're also
joined by Josh Killeen, who isthe Conservation Science and
Programs Manager.
Jan Sumner (02:08):
The conversation with Josh is also good because
he used to work for industry.
So this is you'll get aworldview into this, but it's
not northern Alberta that we'retalking about this time.
It's southern Alberta and wehave yet to focus there, and so
I think this is going to be agreat conversation as well,
because we get to know a littlebit about the Rockies and what's
happening with forestry there,and so I think this is going to
be a great conversation as well,because we we get to know a
little bit about the Rockies andwhat's happening with forestry
(02:29):
there.
Kaya Adleman (02:30):
Yeah, I agree I I'm excited for this episode and
it definitely makes me missspending time out there.
It's a quite a beautiful placeto be, if you ever get the
chance to go.
Jan Sumner (02:41):
Yeah, I was.
I was just out there recentlyand it's breathtaking,
Absolutely breathtaking.
So let's go ahead.
Well, kaya, I'm excited thismorning because we are going to
be talking to Katie and Josh,who are from Alberta, and for
(03:03):
some of our listeners they maynot know that I worked in
Alberta.
I wasn't necessarily livingthere, but I was traveling back
and forth to Alberta as we weredeveloping caribou conservation
plans with many of the forestindustry companies who operate
in Alberta.
Now, this was caribouconservation, so it was northern
Alberta.
The conversation today is goingto be about southern Alberta,
but I've worked with Katie inparticular for a number of years
(03:26):
, and Josh actually in adifferent context, on caribou
conservation.
So we'll get into that in alittle bit as we go along, but
I'm looking forward to theconversation around the Rocky
Mountains.
Kaya Adleman (03:38):
Yeah, me too.
Do you guys want to introduceyourselves for our listeners?
Katie Morrison (03:45):
Sure, I'm Katie Morrison.
I'm the executive director ofthe Southern Alberta chapter of
CEPAWS, the Canadian Parks andWilderness Society, so CEPAWS,
southern Alberta.
Our mission is to protect andconserve the vital ecological
functions of public lands andwaters here in Southern Alberta,
so we work on freshwaterconservation as well as public
(04:10):
lands, whether that's protectedareas, management of protected
areas or management oflandscapes that are unprotected,
but we still want to see themmanaged with nature as a
priority.
Jan Sumner (04:21):
And you're based in Calgary, right.
Is that correct?
And you're based in calgary,right, is that?
Is that correct in calgary?
And I just want to honor thefact that you're also under a
severe water shortage right now,with uh challenges uh ongoing
in the city of calgary.
Katie Morrison (04:35):
So we are.
It has been two weeks that wehave severe water restrictions,
um, and it looks like it'll beanother three to five, so it's
it's a eye-opening experience ofwhat our water future could
look like.
You know, the water shortageright now is because of a water
main brink, but I every daythink about, you know, the
future of our water, and I'msure we'll talk more about that.
Jan Sumner (04:57):
Yeah, definitely, Josh.
A little bit about you andyou're not in Calgary.
Josh Killeen (05:02):
Yeah, I live in Edmonton.
My name is Josh Killeen.
I'm from the UK originally, butI moved out to Alberta about 10
years ago.
I'm a biologist by training.
I went to university in Londonin England, and then also in
France and the Netherlands formy MSc degree, and then I moved
out to Alberta and spent anumber of years working for a
(05:25):
consultancy company, workingprimarily with forestry
companies on forest managementplanning and also with the
provincial government on caribourange planning, which is where
we met, of course.
And yeah, now I work with theCanadian Blacks and Bord Society
and the Conservation Scienceand Programs Manager with
(05:46):
Southern Alberta Charlton.
Jan Sumner (05:49):
Yeah, I worked sitting at tables, as I
mentioned, on caribouconservation, and Josh was
usually sitting on the otherside of the table providing data
and analysis as a contractor toindustry, as a consulting
service.
Contracted to industry as aconsulting service, but I got to
say, and also for governments.
But I got to say I thought itwas a real coup when Katie was
able to get Josh to join theteam at Southern Alberta.
(06:12):
So I'm very pleased to see yousitting on this side of the
table, even though we'revirtually separated.
Josh Killeen (06:19):
Absolutely yeah, it's been really exciting for me
as well.
Jan Sumner (06:23):
So, Katie, I know something about you that, I
think, is you know that not alot of people assume that
environmentalists are hunters,are out there fishing those
kinds of things, and Katie oftenwill talk about that.
In fact, I was just in meetingsin Camorra and she was talking
about trapping etc.
(06:43):
I won't mention which speciesis an invasive, but maybe you
could just talk about that alittle bit.
Katie Morrison (06:53):
Yeah, so I didn't grow up in Alberta, but
my family has been in Albertafor many generations and really
connected to the land.
And one of the ways that Ireally connect with the places
that I work and the places thatI live is through hunting and
fishing.
And for me, you know, hunting,particularly because it is such
(07:14):
a major food source for me Isource, you know, most of my
meat that I eat throughout theyear myself.
For me, that's a reallyprofound connection to a
landscape when, um, I have tounderstand, uh, how that system
works really well, to be able tounderstand the animals on the
system and be able to to huntthose those animals, um, but it
(07:38):
also means that I'm I'm, youknow, fueling myself throughout
the year with something thatcame from these landscapes and
for me that's it's a, you know,circular really strong
connection.
I feel this really strongconnection to the land because
I'm hunting and harvesting myfood there and the process of
(07:58):
hunting and harvesting that foodalso makes me understand and
connect to those landscapes evenmore.
I also fish a lot, and so theareas that we'll talk about
today are also areas that I do alot of fishing.
It's, you know, up in theeastern slopes the fishing is
(08:20):
all catch and release becausethe species are threatened,
federally listed as threatenedbut that too is something that I
can see, those changes on thelandscape when I'm out fishing.
It's very personal for me thework that we do because of the
(08:40):
connection that I have to theseplaces through hunting and
fishing, and you must have anextended community as well that
you, I mean.
Jan Sumner (08:46):
you're just not out there by yourself, right?
You'll see other people who arehunting and fishing and you get
a chance to connect to peoplewho are also on the land and
land users.
Katie Morrison (08:57):
Yeah, I have a good community.
Some of that is family that mybrother, my older brother,
particularly hunts, so I'll huntwith him, Um, but also a good
community of folks who um areare out hunting and fishing the
lands and really connected tocaring about and conserving
these places because they havethose connections.
Um, I'm on the board of anorganization called Back Into
(09:21):
Hunters and Anglers and I'm nowon the North America board and
the Canada board.
I helped start the Albertachapter about eight years ago
and that's an organization ofhunters and anglers that are
entirely focused on maintainingfoot access, maintaining
sustainable access to places toallow us to continue hunting and
(09:44):
fishing, and also conservingthese really important
landscapes so that we cancontinue to harvest food and
enjoy nature through hunting andfishing.
Jan Sumner (09:58):
Thank you for telling that story.
I think it's really importantto have those words out there in
the world and thatenvironmentalist
conservationists not bepigeonholed into these narrow
definitions, and so thanks forsharing that, josh.
I'm going to turn to you next.
And are you a hunter and fisher, or are you a computer geek?
(10:18):
Or maybe a combination of both?
I don't know.
Josh Killeen (10:22):
More of a computer geek than a hunter, but I did
grow up on a farm but maybe Ican tell you a little bit kind
of why I ended up with seaportsand what that means to me.
Because, as I mentioned, I grewup in England and one of the
things about England is abeautiful place but it doesn't
have many wild spaces like wehave in Alberta and in Canada in
(10:43):
general like we have in Albertaand in Canada in general.
And one of the things thatreally struck me very hard when
I first came to Alberta andstill today is how much
incredible wilderness there ishere.
And what a special thing that isto still have those places,
which are truly wild.
And for me, that was one of thethings that I saw when I was
(11:06):
kind of working in myconsultancy job.
That was that, even though wehave these amazing places, we
kind of take them for grantedand we continue to believe or to
tell ourselves that we can kindof have everything all the time
everywhere and still have thesewild places.
And what I saw from theforestry perspective was, you
(11:27):
know, that that just isn'treally true, that there's always
a trade-off, there's always acompromise, and often it's the
environmental side of thingsthat bears the brunt of that
compromise and, uh, and sothat's why I ended up with
seapores, because, um, you know,I wanted to be able to make a
meaningful difference, toactually protect the wild places
(11:48):
that we have here while westill can, um, and to make sure
that we have them going forwardfor for the future I think it
would be good for listeners tohave the context of why there is
a CEPA's Southern Albertachapter versus a Northern
(12:09):
Alberta chapter.
Kaya Adleman (12:10):
Are there differences in the conservation
efforts in the ecology,landscapes, etc.
Katie Morrison (12:18):
Yeah, I mean it's a little bit of a
historical approach.
So CEPA's as an organization,our chapters have always grown
from grassroots movements and somost CPAS chapters, or most
provinces, have one CPAS chapterthat covers the province.
But both the Alberta chapterswere formed in the 60s and at
(12:41):
that time there were just sortof two different grassroots
organizations or grassrootsmovements that then created two
separate C-plus chapters and wehave always just then maintained
those two chapters.
But you know there's enoughwork in the province for two
chapters to cover.
So we kind of roughly split ourarea around Red Deer, which is
(13:07):
the middle of the province-ishit's actually a little bit
farther south than the middleand the southern Alberta chapter
covers roughly the Red DeerRiver south.
The northern Alberta chaptercovers the Red Deer into the
boreal.
So in the south we're dealingmore with Rocky Mountains,
eastern front of the RockyMountains, we're dealing a lot
(13:28):
more with headwaters, landscapeswith foothills and prairie
landscapes, whereas in the norththey're dealing a lot in boreal
issues.
Jan Sumner (13:39):
Because I was reminded yesterday as I was
describing to somebodyinternationally who was working
on mapping and I was saying well, it's right in the middle of
British Columbia, right here,and he's like where's British
Columbia?
So maybe you could just situateAlberta for some of our
international listeners, Becausethe podcast now enjoys being
(14:01):
heard in six continents andwe're still holding out for
Antarctica, but we're in sixcontinents and we're still
holding up for Antarctica, butwe're on six continents.
So maybe you could just explainwhere the heck Alberta is.
Katie Morrison (14:11):
Yeah, I mean Alberta is in Western Canada and
I think most people have heardof the Rocky Mountains, so the
Rocky Mountains are whatseparate Alberta from British
Columbia.
So we are in the West and a lotof the work that we do is in
those Rocky Mountains and inthose foothills of the Rocky
Mountains so really valuablelandscapes from so many
(14:32):
perspectives which we can getinto.
But it's a Western province.
It is a natural resourcedependent province.
Historically we have reallyfocused our economy on oil and
gas, forestry, mining thosepieces, and so there's, when we
(14:55):
start talking about naturalresource management, there's
sort of a different history andculture, I would say, in how we
think about these things inAlberta which is changing as we
progress as a province and aseconomies change.
But we're certainly a provincerooted in natural resource
management or natural resourceexploitation.
Jan Sumner (15:16):
Yeah, and what you're doing in the Rockies is
also very much related to the USas well, right, because you've
got this north-south with theYukon to Yellowstone, that that
Rocky Mountain range goes quitea ways, and just maybe set that
in context so people understandits connectivity to the rest of
the continent.
Katie Morrison (15:37):
Yeah, I mean we work in Southern Alberta but we
actually end up working acrossjurisdictions quite a bit,
whether that's across the B, theBC side, or down into Montana,
which is directly south of us,because those ecosystems cross
those boundaries.
It's, you know, there's not aUS-Canada border where suddenly
(15:58):
the wildlife stop moving or thewater doesn't flow or, you know,
those things are all connectedacross those jurisdictional
boundaries.
And the area that we work inactually is sometimes called the
crown of the continent and it'san area where three major river
basins extend from.
So some of the water goes tothe Hudson's Bay, some goes to
(16:19):
the Gulf of Mexico and some goesto the Pacific Coast, which
makes it really uniqueecologically but also really
interesting jurisdictionally,because what happens in that
landscape is affected by andaffects often these
trans-boundary issues across theborders provincial borders,
(16:39):
municipal borders, first Nationsborders, but also the
international border if I wereto tap into the lay person in
canada.
Kaya Adleman (16:55):
When they think about calgary or southern
alberta, they don't really thinkabout forestry so much.
Um, could you maybe talk alittle bit about the forestry or
forest management that happensin southern alberta?
Katie Morrison (17:09):
yeah, well, I just start describing the
landscape and then maybe joshcan talk about.
You know, the forestry thatgoes on in that landscape.
So you know I mentioned thatthat a lot of where we're
working and a lot what we'retalking about is the is the
rocky mountains.
So it's the east front of therocky mountains, um, which is
this really um unique and andcool landscape, because we've
(17:31):
got the prairies that come upand then meet sort of a fescue
foothills grassland system thatgoes up into a montane and
subalpine alpine system, allwithin a pretty short distance.
So you know, when you have theRocky Mountains, you might think
(17:52):
of those, you know, like big,beautiful peaks.
And we're talking the stuffthat's just on the east of the
more forested.
It's a largely coniferousforest but really diverse.
When I was talking earlier abouthow we're situated in this
(18:12):
crown of the content landscape,with those three major
watersheds, it's also sort of aconvergence of those three major
ecosystems and so we get a realhuge range of diversity in that
system because of theconfluence of the different
ecosystems meeting in this crownof the continent landscape in
(18:33):
the Rocky Mountains.
So it's, I mean visually, it iswhat you think of when you
think of Alberta or when youthink of the Rocky Mountains,
and then that thin strip offorest is only about, you know,
50 kilometers wide from thoserocky peaks out into that
(18:54):
grassland.
So it's actually this reallythin area of forest that holds
that incredible biodiversityvalue, that amazing tourism
value because of that iconiclandscape.
It has a lot of value becauseof that in sustainable economies
(19:14):
, whether that is ranching inthat foothills landscape or
tourism and outfitting guiding,hunting and fishing guiding.
But one of the really keypieces of this landscape it is
the headwaters of the prairies,including Alberta but all the
(19:35):
way into Saskatchewan andManitoba.
So 90% of the water between 80and 90% of the water that is
used by all those downstreamcommunities, those millions of
people who live downstream,comes from this little thin
strip of about 50 kilometerswide in this region and that
fuels our agriculture, ourindustry, our drinking water.
(20:01):
It's just this incrediblyimportant resource that we don't
treat as this incrediblyimportant resource.
We don't treat as thisincredibly important resource.
We treat it sort of as an areato extract for the short-term
value.
So maybe I'll turn it over toJosh to sort of talk about
(20:22):
forestry, particularly in thisregion, although we're also
dealing with you know forestryand some oil and gas and post
coal mines and you know there'sa lot of you know unsustainable
recreation, motorized recreationparticularly.
There's a lot of threats tothis landscape and the water
resource in this landscape.
But I'll let Josh talk aboutforestry.
Josh Killeen (20:44):
Yeah, so forestry in Alberta is the fourth largest
industry, like across Canada byprovince, so behind Ontario,
quebec and BC.
And you're right that most ofthe forestry that takes place in
Alberta is primarily in theboreal.
That's the biggest producer oflumber and pulp by far.
But there is also quite a bitof forestry in southern Alberta
(21:09):
too and, as Katie was describing, it's in this strip of forest
that we have in between themountains and the prairies and
there's kind of two forestmanagement agreements.
So those are a tenure thatcompanies have on provincial
land for harvesting timber thatare in this southern part and in
(21:32):
the scheme of Alberta forestry.
They're quite small, probablyonly about 2%, 2.5% of the total
cut that happens in theprovince, but their impact is
really large.
And this is kind of going backto what Katie was saying, that
it's hard to overstate theimportance of this landscape
from all these differentperspectives biodiversity, water
(21:54):
, recreation and tourism.
But at the same time we havethis forest industry in this
same small area which is under alot of pressure from a lot of
different avenues and it has areally big impact.
And so we've come to this placewhere it's very difficult or
impossible to have the scale ofindustry that we have in the
(22:19):
same place, while alsomaintaining all those other
ecological and social valuesthat we have that are so
important to us.
And so that's, you know, that'skind of where we're trying to
navigate is is how do we improvethat situation?
Jan Sumner (22:36):
So let me get this.
I just want to make sure I getthis right.
So you've got the rockies,which are this great big peak.
You've got a thin strip offorestry which is maybe 50
kilometers.
Then, as you're heading downthe mountain, you run into that
forest and then eventually itbecomes grasslands, it becomes
the big prairie, um, and alldifferent kinds of grasses, et
cetera, where you have andhaving traveled that landscape,
(22:58):
you have a lot of ranches.
So the water starts out at thetop, it's in those glaciers,
it's in those big rivers andit's flowing down that and it's
going through that forest, goingthrough that grassland, it's
going to some of the ranchers,but it ends up, if you're going
eastward, it ends up going intoHudson Bay, right, and that's
(23:19):
where we're working onprotection for all the creatures
in the ocean there.
And the other thing that itdoes is it goes south and it's
going to go all the way to theGulf of Mexico and I imagine
it's going to go through a fairnumber of towns and cities and
places where they have farms andagriculture and people who
(23:40):
depend on that fresh water.
And how we manage that thinstrip is going to determine the
water quality and theavailability of water for people
east and south of it, but alsoto the west, going into Pacific.
Is that correct?
Katie Morrison (24:01):
Yeah, I mean the continental divide that divides
Alberta and BC is sort of wherethat water divides.
So most of the water that comesfrom Alberta is not crossing
that continental divide into thePacific, but that sort of
region when I talked about thatcrown of the continent region,
(24:21):
the Tri-Peaks, which is actuallyin Montana, is part of that
whole system and flows that way.
Some conflicts when we talkabout mining, particularly coal
mining, when they take a top offa mountain, if that is part of
the continental divide, that canactually then mess up how that
water flows and get water thatwould have been flowing into the
(24:45):
Alberta side then flowing intothe Pacific, the BC side.
Jan Sumner (24:51):
So no small task when you talk about managing
this fresh water so that it canprovide livelihoods and health
and benefits all across thecontinent.
Katie Morrison (25:02):
really, quite frankly, that's an enormous job
and some of those really, reallydry areas you know, southern
Alberta is one of the mostdrought-prone areas is one of
the most drought-prone areas andso that sort of contrast
between the importance of waterin this thin strip.
(25:23):
The need for water downstreamis so high but we're not sort of
making decisions on thislandscape as if that is true and
that that's the water that isproviding our entire agriculture
industry, our ranching industry, our communities.
Josh Killeen (25:41):
I think that's a really important point, that
this is a very drought pronesystem in southern Alberta, but
it's also the largest irrigatedfarmland area in Canada and it's
also the drinking water foreveryone who lives in Southern
Alberta, which is a reallyrapidly growing population and,
as you mentioned, then crossingall these boundaries into other
(26:01):
provinces, into the US and so on, and so the importance of the
region is just so high that itmeans that we really have to be
smart about protecting it in thefuture and looking after it in
the future, because if we failto do that, the implications
would be huge.
Jan Sumner (26:28):
Yeah, so we've done a number of podcasts Now.
We've talked to people inBritish Columbia, we've talked
to people in Atlantic Canada andOntario, where we have some
expertise, and I'm veryinterested to sort of figure out
the forestry that's happeningin southern Alberta.
You talk about being coniferdominant, but not necessarily
just exclusively.
What kind of forestry gets donethere?
(26:50):
We know that in Ontario we havefull tree harvesting forestry
gets done there.
We know that in Ontario we havefull tree harvesting.
When we spoke with Dr PeterWood about forestry in British
Columbia he very much relayedthe history of forestry there,
that actually in policy and infact it's a planned policy to
move natural forests intomanaged forests, that's actually
(27:13):
what the current policyframework is in british columbia
.
That is the stated purpose.
So and to feed the mills,basically.
So what's the?
What are we dealing with inalberta?
What's the?
And specific to southernalberta, what is the policy
framework or how is itapproached?
Because i's different.
Josh Killeen (27:32):
Yeah, it's certainly a similar story,
though in that it's very muchdriven by that timber supply as
the first priority for theindustry and indeed for the
government regulator.
So you know, forestry has beengoing on for quite a long time
in southern Alberta, but itreally got going in earnest in
(27:53):
its modern form kind of in the60s, 70s onwards, and we had the
Forest Act, which is a Albertapiece of legislation that was
produced in the 70s to governhow forestry would proceed in
the region, and that piece oflegislation really set out the
(28:13):
idea that that timber supply wascoming first, that we were
managing for a sustained yieldof timber going forward, and
that was the priority.
And that's in quite starkcontrast to the policies that
surround the eastern slopes, thearea that we've described,
which have generally, at leastin principle, taken the idea
(28:36):
that the water, the biodiversity, the recreation, that those
things are really priorities.
And so there's this conflictbetween some of the different
aspects of policy andlegislation in the province and
the result of that has been thatthe forest industry has
continued to kind of move downthis path of focusing on
(28:58):
extraction and having thoseecological and social values be
ultimately secondary to that.
And so, while things havechanged significantly since the
1970s and there's certainly moreawareness and more
incorporation of other valuesbeyond timber.
It's still the case that thattimber supply is the priority,
that's what's coming first, andour other values are sort of
(29:20):
seen as constraints on thattimber supply instead of
something that we'reprioritizing and that we're
putting first.
And that really puts us in atough position, because what
we've continually seen is thatwe've had environmental
degradation as a result in theSouth.
Jan Sumner (29:40):
Can you maybe expand on that and the reason I'm
asking about the environmentaldegradation?
We've got a podcast coming outshortly about the EU which is
looking at a procurement policythat says they won't take fiber,
pulp and paper from areas withdegradation or deforestation.
(30:01):
And Canada for anybody whohasn't listened to some of the
episodes deforestation isinternationally defined not by
having no forest there, butactually having a land use
change.
So moving from a forest wherewe have forestry to, for example
, a shopping mall or a newsuburban development kind of
(30:22):
thing that are changing it intoa city boundary, that kind of
thing would be a land use change.
But degradation is definitelysomething Canada has to get its
head around, because we'reseeing new laws coming up in the
US.
We're seeing the UK has a newlaw and this EU degradation
directive.
So can you speak to that, josh,in terms of maybe how you see
(30:43):
degradation happening in thisforest?
Josh Killeen (30:46):
Yeah, I think you make a really great point there
that we don't technically domuch deforestation in this
region.
When it comes to forestry,we're replanting the trees after
harvest, but what we'rereplanting isn't the same forest
that was there before.
That's the key difference.
That's the degradation, andtypically what's done is that
(31:08):
there's a move towards plantinga more monoculture conifer stand
after harvest, and so there's aloss of some of the diversity
in the system and we move fromhaving a very complex forest
with a lot of structuraldiversity and a lot of
complexity in how it functionsto something which is much more
(31:32):
simplified where we havetypically a monoculture stand of
conifer which is going to growfast and produce as much timber
in the least amount of time andproduces much timber, you know,
in the least amount of time.
And that's the goal of theforestry process is to actually
create more timber more quickly,not to have a forest which is
(31:55):
as healthy and biodiverse andresilient as possible.
So that's kind of that keydifference between, yeah,
deforestation and degradation.
And there's no doubt that we'reseeing significant degradation
in our forests and one of theclearest indicators of that is
species at risk.
And I know on this podcastyou've talked a lot about
(32:17):
caribou as an example of that,but in the south we also have
several species at risk nativetrout species like the Westlip
cutthroat trout and the bulltrout, risk native trout species
like the Westlet cutthroattrout and the bull trout and
those populations are decliningextremely rapidly and forestry
is a big influence on that.
And so we know, you know, fromthose things, from tracking what
(32:40):
happens to populations ofspecies like those, that we're
not doing a good enough job atlooking after these ecosystems.
Kaya Adleman (32:51):
Could you get into maybe, how specifically
forestry practices are?
Causing the decline of thesespecies.
Josh Killeen (33:00):
Yeah, definitely.
So.
What happens in the widerwatershed has a huge impact on
the, on the aquatic ecosystem,and that's in a number of ways,
so one of the the biggest onesis through erosion and
sedimentation.
So we see that when the, whenwe do clear-cut harvesting on
the landscape and when we buildall these roads into these um,
(33:20):
into these relativelyundisturbed places that often
have quite steep and ruggedterrain in this region, that
there's a lot of erosionpotential and a lot of
sedimentation then comes offthose roads, off those cut
blocks, and it ends up goinginto the water, it goes into the
streams and the creeks and thatflows down into the bigger
rivers.
And trout don't do well withsedimentation.
(33:43):
It has a huge impact on theirability to survive and reproduce
and it's a huge influence onthe population declines that we
see.
And then, at the same time, weoften see things like warming
waters as well.
So when we remove the forestcover, that often increases the
(34:04):
water temperature, particularlyin those smaller creeks that
feed into the bigger rivers, andour native trout are really
adapted to very cold and cleanwater.
And so when we end up withwarmer water, which is much more
impacted by erosion andsedimentation, that's really a
double whammy for the nativetrout, and they have a really
(34:24):
hard time coping with that.
But I think I'll also let Katiejump in on this, because I'm
sure she has a little bit to addas well.
Katie Morrison (34:34):
I can talk about fish all day.
So yeah, I mean the nativetrout, as Justin mentioned, are
really adapted to theseecosystems and they need cold,
clean, connected and complexsystems.
So they need cold water, asJosh mentioned, and when we
remove riparian cover or coverup the landscape, that can kind
(34:57):
of increase those temperaturesand potentially increase the
water temperature andpotentially increase the water
temperature.
The clean, as Josh mentioned,the sedimentation connected.
When you put a bunch of roadsand culverts over these streams,
there's a chance that fish willnot move as easily through them
or bridges over.
(35:18):
That could be a visualdisturbance and then complex, so
they they lay their eggs um inin these like rocky, pebbly um
stream bottoms and when you geta bunch of sedimentation that
covers that over, it createslike almost like a cement, a
thick um cement at the bottom ofthe streams and that complexity
(35:40):
that allows them to lay theireggs and have those eggs sort of
hidden and staying wherethey're supposed to be on the
bottom of that complex floor.
They're much more easily washedaway in that.
The other piece that sort of hasa landscape influence is when
water comes off, so you knowwhen you have clearing of of the
(36:06):
forest in these uh, landscapes,uh, and then when water or when
snow melts in the spring, um,the snow melts much faster, um,
and and so all that water sortof runs off the landscape rather
than seeping into the landscapeand trickling off throughout
the rest of the year.
So we have higher runoff in thespring, when we don't want
(36:30):
higher runoff, when we'realready at risk of floods.
And then when August comes andwe need that water, in the
streams and in our communitiesthere's less water available
because it already all ran offin the spring.
But that also affects trout who, you know.
When you get that big runofftemps or runoff in the spring,
(36:51):
that can, you know, change thebank's stability and, you know,
maybe even create more erosionand sedimentation and then later
in the summer, if your streamsare really low, they're going to
be warmer and less availablefor fish to move.
So I think it's people don'toften think about this, you know
like big landscape disturbanceand how that affects water.
(37:13):
But but in this landscapeparticularly so connected
between what we do on the landand how that impacts aquatic
health and then our ability touse the water downstream as well
.
Kaya Adleman (37:27):
I'm just thinking with warmer water.
Would increased levels ofdissolved oxygen also be an
issue for fish?
Katie Morrison (37:36):
Absolutely that's.
Part of it is temperature BothWest Slope cutthroat trout and
bull trout.
They need their water quitecool, so you're looking at no
more than 16 or 18 degreesCelsius.
Once you get above that itstarts to become a stress on
(37:59):
their system and part of that isabsolutely the oxygen that's in
the water become a stress ontheir system, and part of that
is absolutely the oxygen that'sin the water, Would you so?
Jan Sumner (38:13):
I know that in a boreal system, caribou are often
considered a bellwether of howhealthy the system is.
Are any of these species whatyou would consider?
Something that kind of givesyou a measure or an indicator on
how well this ecosystem isdoing?
Katie Morrison (38:29):
Yeah, I think absolutely, you know, because
they need that clean and coolwater.
How we are treating ourlandscapes is reflected in the
water.
How we are treating ourlandscapes is reflected in the
water and then you know thefish's ability to survive in
that is a reflection of thehealth of that entire system.
(38:50):
So, yeah, we do often talkabout them as an indicator
species and they're not doingwell.
You know, we have three speciesof native trout, two of them in
the south the West LopeCutthroat Trout and Bull Trout,
which is our provincial fish.
And then there's AthabascaRainbow Trout, which is a little
bit farther north in theAthabasca system.
(39:12):
But all three of those BullTrout and West Lope Cutthroat
Trout are federally threatenedand Athabasca Rainbow Trout is
federally endangered.
So if we are treating them asthat canary in the coal mine or
that indicator of landscapehealth, I think it's telling us
that we are not doing right bythis landscape, that we need to
(39:33):
be changing the way we managefor these species, for
biodiversity, but also forourselves, because we rely on
that water just as much.
Jan Sumner (39:42):
So it's a bit of a warning system that says, hey,
time to get your act together.
So can you describe some of thework that you're doing to
influence decision-making?
And you can talk about forestry, because, ultimately, we're
here to talk about the forest,but you can talk about forestry.
(40:03):
You can talk because we'reultimately, we're here to talk
about the forest, but you cantalk about forestry.
You could talk about, uh, asyou said, there's a coal mining,
there's various other thingsthat go on in these, these areas
that also compromise thenatural um ecosystems and and
threatened species.
Josh Killeen (40:21):
Do you want to dive in with a summary, katie,
and maybe I can then addsomething on the forestry side
of things.
Katie Morrison (40:28):
Yeah, so, as I mentioned, there's a there's
sort of a lot that goes on inthis landscape.
You know Josh mentioned earlierthat for more than a hundred
years our policy has alwaysreflected that that water is the
most important value of thislandscape.
But that's not reflected inmanagement or you know, all the
other acts and legislation andpolicy that overlaps that which
(40:51):
tends to take priority.
So it is quite a busy landscape.
There is a threat of new coalmines in the south there's not
any active coal mines.
In the north slopes there aresome, but you know, threat of
new coal mines from some policychanges that the provincial
government made a few years agothat are now currently on pause,
(41:16):
with one exception, which iscomplicated Because it should
also be on pause, um,complicated, um, because it
should also be on pause, um, butyou know, threat of coal mines,
uh, forestry, uh, and all theroading that comes with forestry
exploration roads for mining,uh, for oil and gas.
There is, you know, some oiland gas extraction, um, there is
(41:40):
a lot of, um, motorizedrecreation on the landscape,
which is also a threat to thewater quality, and threat to
fish, again, because of thosenew roads and new trails maybe
not built in the right placesthat create sedimentation and
crossing of streams, busylandscape that we do need to get
(42:07):
a handle on, because we can'thave all of these activities
happening in this place andexpect that the ecosystem will
continue to function as itshould.
Josh Killeen (42:20):
So on the forestry side of things, some of the
things that we're working on areto, at an overall level, to try
and influence government tomodernize and improve the Forest
Act so that we can move awayfrom this timber supply first
model to an ecosystem functionfirst and a social values first
(42:42):
model and have timber supply bea part of that but not the
driving force behind it.
So that's kind of the longerterm goal that we're working
toward.
But one of the campaigns thatwe're working directly on at the
moment is in an area called theupper highwood, and so this is
in this kind of transition zonethat we've been talking about
(43:04):
between the peaks of the Rockiesand going down into the
forested area, and it's right inbetween a bunch of different
protected areas and this is kindof this sliver of unprotected
landscape where there's still asignificant forestry presence
and it's really a stunning area.
(43:25):
I'd love to be able to show youa picture of it right now.
Jan Sumner (43:28):
it's just this beautiful area, um that, if
you've ever been to, albertdescribe it to us, josh, tell us
, tell us why it's beautiful,sure, yeah?
Josh Killeen (43:36):
yeah.
So, um, if you're, if you'redriving into the mountains on on
highway 40, um, you're kind of,uh, going through this, this
landscape that gets more andmore rugged as you get towards
the mountains, more and morechanges in topography and you
have this beautiful rollingforest, um, that you're, that
you're passing through, and thenin the background you have
(43:57):
those enormous peaks that are soemblematic of the Alberta
Rockies and, yeah, it's just astunning place.
And this particular area isrelatively untouched by
development.
There's no oil and gas in there.
There's been very littleforestry in there.
There was a little bit back inthe 1960s, but it was relatively
(44:19):
minor, and so it's this quitespecial, quite untouched place,
was relatively minor, and soit's this quite special, quite
untouched place and it also hashuge value for native trout.
It has a really important bulltrout population and lots of
folks like Katie go out therefishing, go out there angling,
and it's just a beautiful placeto be.
That has a lot of value andmeaning to lots of people in the
(44:41):
area.
And unfortunately, this reallylarge swathe of it is set to be
clear-cut, and it was actuallyplanned to be clear-cut last
year, but ourselves and a numberof other organizations, and
particularly led by a grassrootsgroup in the area, were able to
force a pause in this plan tokind of reassess whether this is
(45:07):
really what we should be doingin this place.
So that's a campaign that we'vebeen working really hard on,
both from a point of view ofraising awareness with the
public, of putting pressure onindustry and on politicians
putting pressure on industry andon politicians but also on
doing a bunch of scientific workas well to try and better
(45:29):
assess just how it's used bynative trout and what its value
is to native trout as well, andso that's some ongoing work that
we're doing.
Jan Sumner (45:44):
I think that what comes across in this episode and
what you can hear in Katie'svoice is her absolute love and
understanding of the land,telling of what she sees
(46:06):
happening on the land and herexperience of that, because she
has such good firsthandknowledge and understanding of
it.
So, yeah, I really, reallyenjoyed learning about the
eastern slopes and and thoseareas of the rockies that are so
important for water andthinking.
And it's what do they say?
It's the most irrigated and themost drought prone part of
Canada.
Kaya Adleman (46:26):
I think it's also 80 to 90% of the water is used
by all those downstreamcommunities from those
headwaters.
I think they were saying soyeah, that's crazy.
Jan Sumner (46:36):
Yeah, definitely something to think about.
Kaya Adleman (46:38):
Yeah, I personally learned a lot this episode.
The fact that you have allthese ecosystems that are all
coming together, you have themountains, you have the prairies
, you have forests in the north,and the fact that there's this
50 kilometer strip of forest inthis area that holds just this
credible amount of biodiversityis really special and kudos to
(47:01):
Josh and Katie for doing thework that they're doing to
protect it.
And we have a really excitingconversation second part of our
conversation coming up, sodefinitely stay tuned for that
next week.
Jan Sumner (47:12):
Yeah, if you like listening to the Clear Cut and
want to keep the content coming,support the show.
It would mean a lot to Kaya andI.
The link to do so will be inthe episode description below.
Kaya Adleman (47:27):
You can also become a supporter by going to
our website atwwwwildlandsleagueorg.
Slash the clear cut and alsomake sure to leave us a review
on your favorite podcaststreaming platform.
It would really help thepodcast and stay tuned for new
episodes by following us onsocial media.
Jan Sumner (47:48):
That's at Wildlands League on Instagram, twitter and
Facebook or LinkedIn, of course.
Kaya Adleman (47:54):
See you next time.
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