September 24, 2024 • 59 mins
In this episode, we dive deep into the multifaceted world of Tim Banks, a Staff Solutions Architect at Caylent. Tim shares his remarkable journey from the US Marine Corps to becoming a prominent voice in the tech community. We explore the parallels between his experiences in tech, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and community building, uncovering valuable insights on personal growth, professional development, and the state of open source. Whether you're a seasoned tech professional, a community organizer, or someone looking to break into the industry, this episode offers valuable insights on navigating the complex landscape of technology, community, and personal growth.
Where to Find Tim Banks
- Twitter: https://x.com/elchefe
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timjb/
- GitHub: https://github.com/timbanks
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@elchefenegro
- TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@timbanks71
- Blog: https://tim-banks.ghost.io/
Show Links
- Caylent: https://caylent.com/
- CNCF: https://www.cncf.io/
- Apache Software Foundation: https://www.apache.org/
- DevOpsDays: https://devopsdays.org/
- Elastic License Change: https://www.elastic.co/blog/elastic-license-v2
- OpenSearch (Amazon's Elasticsearch Fork): https://opensearch.org/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tim (00:00):
I'm a pattern recognizer.
That's what I do right.
That's why I play music, that'swhy I do jujitsu, that's why I
cook, that's why you know I dotech.
Like all these things I do, itcomes from pattern recognition
and finding, like the contextbehind it and the underlying
fundamentals.
William (00:25):
Coming to you from the Cloud Gambit studio.
This is your host, william, andwith me my co-host, the
cheesecake crafting queen of theSouth, yvonne Sharp.
How are you doing today, yvonne?
Eyvonne (00:39):
That would be me, and I cannot quantify the number of
cheesecakes I've made in mycareer.
But now I can no longer eatdairy, so cheesecake is
completely a gift.
I make cheesecakes, I can stillmake it, but I don't get to eat
it.
William (00:53):
I've had one of them and it was very good.
It might be one of the bestcheesecakes I've ever tasted,
and it's not just the cheesecake, it's the homemade raspberry
topping with the chocolatedrizzle.
Eyvonne (01:04):
Yeah, anytime you're near Louisville, kentucky, and
you want to go for a scenicdrive, let me know and I'll make
you cheesecake.
Tim (01:12):
All right, just so you know my birthday did just pass and I
don't recall getting anythingfrom either of you.
Eyvonne (01:18):
Oh, okay, if you're ever in the area, let us know.
William (01:22):
You're on the Christmas card cheesecake list now, well,
and so I got to introduce ourguest.
So with us we have a veryspecial guest, uh, tim banks.
So first, of all how are youdoing on this fine, this
beautiful monday?
I don't know if it's beautifulin austin.
You're in austin, right?
Tim (01:40):
I am and it is, it is gorgeous.
So we've, um, you know, we havesurvived the Texas summer and
we've had our first full week,like in the eighties.
My air conditioner turned offat least twice yesterday, which
is, you know, that's.
That's a monumental time, but Ido it.
Well, it's sunny out, it'sclear, it's, it's.
It was breezy the morningstarted off in the fifties and
(02:00):
it was, it was wild.
Finished selling right, myright.
My birthday week, you know,concludes today like a week from
my birthday, and I had a greattime yesterday, uh, with some
friends and one of my partners,and it was just just.
I've been having an absoluteblast.
Probably, probably, actually.
No, I deserve the good timesI've been having.
I'm gonna be honest about that.
I've been, I've been, I've beenpretty good.
William (02:21):
So it was good food involved.
Tim (02:23):
Oh yeah, we went to a little Italian place.
It's kind of newish here inAustin, I'm not getting
sponsored by it.
The place is called Casa Bianca.
It was so good.
They've got kind of like in thesame style as you see
popularized here in Austin Otherplaces.
You just order it and theybring it out kind of random as
you order or whatever.
(02:44):
There's no sense of like anentrees like that.
You know, family, kids, familycourses, kona made to share
things like that.
It was so good, absolutelyfantastic.
Um, and then we finished offwith just a monstrously sized
and delicious um, uh, um,millefola, I think, is what they
call it in italian thousandleaves, whatever, whatever it
translates to in italian.
It's like it's what they callit in Italian A thousand leaves,
(03:06):
whatever it translates to inItalian.
It's like imagine a croissantas lasagna, but it's a pastry.
Eyvonne (03:12):
I'm intrigued, I'm really hungry now.
William (03:13):
Oh, it's so good.
Yeah, I know it's delicious.
Eyvonne (03:15):
All we've done is talk about food.
William (03:16):
I know I'm really hungry?
I actually haven't eatenanything today, because I'm kind
of doing this intermittentfasting thing so I'm like
starving.
Tim (03:22):
Okay, I love how you're kind of doing this intermittent
fasting.
You either do intermittentfasting or you don't, because if
you don't do it you're notdoing it Like it's.
It is a binary state in thatway.
William (03:32):
I do so.
I wish I, I wish I was moreconsistent with it.
But right now that what I'mdoing is three days a week I do
one meal, I just do like anearly dinner and I like doing
that.
But the thing is I can't do iton the days that I'm doing
sports or like doing anythinglike really active, or else I
get into like the pass out, I'mgonna pass out your kind of
(03:54):
phase I uh, I learned veryquickly that I cannot myself do
intermittent fasting.
Tim (03:58):
When I do jujitsu and and other people at the gym, you
know everyone has their turn oflike oh, I'm gonna do this.
And then they wonder why.
Like you know, everyone hastheir turn of like oh, I'm going
to do this.
And then they wonder why.
Like you know, they're like didyou, did you choke them out?
Like no, they just fell out, Ijust ran out of steam Not enough
protein today.
Is it.
William (04:14):
Yeah, so I actually and I noted down that restaurant
cause I I've been in Austin andusually like Austin or Dallas
for for work, and I think atsome point in the past few years
, the last time I visited,actually I was talking to
someone and I hadn't been inAustin for a while and it is
like blown up, it was since thelast time I'd been.
(04:37):
It was just crazy.
And then the person I was withhad said something I think they
said it is like the fastestgrowing major city in the us
over like the past five years orsomething like year over year
and it's a great place for foodit has become a great place for
food.
Tim (04:55):
It was always pretty good and it's a lot.
A lot of stuff has come in here, but it's it's in this weird
space where it's not it's not anew york or chicago on the level
of food, um, and it's, you know, like the pacific northwest and
like west coast, like where alot of influences came from.
They have proximity to the sea,which which helps them out.
(05:16):
A lot austin's landlocked, sowe have fantastic barbecue.
The mexican food is off thechain but, like for other things
, they're still trying to findthe right culinary niche to fit
in.
There's an incredible amount oftalent, incredible amount of
vision.
They just need to find theright thing that says this is
Austin cuisine and that's.
That's more than barbecue.
(05:36):
You know what I'm saying?
So they're, they're, they'refolks that are doing great stuff
.
I'm excited to see what comesof it, but it's not quite there
yet.
But, oh, kristen, I thinkKristen Nish, I think her name
is they were on Top Chef about10 years ago and then are now
one of the hosts on the FoodNetwork Top Chef, and they just
(06:00):
won an Emmy and they're basedhere, out of Boston.
That's cool.
William (06:06):
Before I forget, happy belated birthday, by the way.
Tim (06:08):
Well, thank you.
I'm in my last year of my 40sand I'm already planning my 50th
birthday party, just becauseit's going to be like, hey, why
not?
William (06:18):
The big one.
Yeah, sounds like fun.
Yeah, for sure.
Tim (06:21):
I know you all have plenty of years left before you get
there, but when it happens it'llbe fun.
William (06:29):
No, no, I'm one year behind you, so we're getting
there as well.
I read somewhere recently, Iguess in your, it was one of
your bios, I think it might havebeen LinkedIn, but you started
out kind of just your whole, Iguess, career in the US Marine
Corps and I think you yourspecialty was avionics.
Tim (06:52):
Yeah, yeah.
So I started off in the MarineCorps, you know, as my first job
and it was funny because I went, I joined the Marine Corps to
be in the Marine German BugleCorps actually auditioned for
and made the Marine Drum andBugle Corps at the headquarters
of 8th and I as a percussionistand I was going to go there.
(07:14):
It was going to be great.
I had a couple of buddies thatwere there.
I was like, yeah, I'm going togo play drums for the Marine
Corps, woo-hoo, right, you know,with red uniforms or like that,
blah um took my ass, fab wentto boot camp and in boot camp
they're like hey, um, bro,you're at by the way oh yeah, by
the way yeah, like you got it.
You got a perfect score on theass, fab.
So, um, we're not gonna let youplay the drums, bro.
(07:37):
We can get any any idiot cominghere and play the drums, um.
So they, they put me in.
Um, they put me in.
Uh, first there was gonna belike electronics text or
something like that, and thenthey you know that's testing.
I swam well, I don't get motionsick or anything like that so
great, we're gonna do avionicsbecause we might need some
flight navigators.
So, um, switched me in bootcamp to avionics.
I had the option to get out too.
(07:58):
I could have gotten out or kindof just taking that.
So I went in and I just got alittle little little bonus,
little little promotion, but didavionics.
And it's interesting learningavionics in the Marine Corps
because you basically getequivalents of an associate's
degree in electronics, but witha crusty gunnery sergeant
yelling in your face the wholetime.
And if you ever need to learnhow to assemble a box of parts
(08:20):
into a radar while wearing a gasmask, that is the place to go.
Eyvonne (08:22):
You know I will say, like we, I know a lot of young
people who are, you know, eithereither struggling with where to
go or what to do with theirlives, or they don't have a ton
of family support, or theydidn't have a lot of discipline
growing up.
And they, you know, they're,they're finishing high school
and they, they don't really knowwhat they want to do.
And you know, I know so manyfolks for whom service made
(08:46):
their you know careers, you know, gave them not only experience
but connected them to missionand a peer group that was
life-changing.
I think it's a great path.
Tim (08:59):
I think it's interesting and nuanced, because I joined
the Marine Corps during theClinton era.
Right, the Clinton era wasn'tdevoid of war and I certainly
saw more than I wanted to see,but we weren't still involved in
that much, you know.
(09:24):
Now we literally just had anentire generation of our youth
involved in a war 20 and still,um, I don't know that I can make
that recommendation anymore.
I'm gonna be real honest, and Iknow I have friends that um
either didn't come back or cameback greatly altered and not a
great way, um, and so my, my, my, my question is to get this
foothold?
At what cost?
You know, um, and the cost isgreat in the Marine Corps or in
(09:44):
any of the military, and I justdon't know.
There's got to be a better way.
There's got to be a better way.
Yes, sure, it can be if that'sthe thing you want to do with
your life, but it shouldn't beyour only option if you don't
have supports like that.
And so, yeah, I would encouragekids, especially now, now that
(10:05):
the internet is a thing andthere's an avenue, if you want
to get a career in something, um, there are ways for that to get
that kind of instructionwithout having to go Um and like
cause I'm not.
If someone is really passionateabout doing it, then I'm yes,
we could do that.
(10:26):
But but if, if I, what I, what Idon't want to see, is kids
going there because it was theironly option?
Um yeah because that's not agreat way to be um that's not
when you did go through.
William (10:32):
Did it have like a did?
Did it have like a positiveimpact on you transitioning to
tech, or did it have any impactthere?
Tim (10:38):
no, a total I.
I got hired directly out of themarine corps because I had that
electronics background and, tobe sure, right.
You know, for me that was theright move, but it was at great
cost.
You know, I do not this is notthe day for me to get into like
everything in it, but it was.
(10:58):
It's a lot of it, it was agreat experience, but a lot of
it sucked.
So I don't know, like I don'tknow, where I would be without
it.
I certainly wouldn't be where Iam.
So for that I'm grateful.
But, yeah, it's um, it's we, we, we have to do better.
We have to do better than thatfor, for, for people who want,
uh, for people who want a careerfor sure, yeah, for sure.
William (11:36):
And it's kind of one of those things, too, where there
I think I've seen someadvertisements here recently
where they're, you know,enrollment and everything is
like so down that they're tryingto get more creative with how
they they.
You have to have people, butyeah just know what you're doing
(11:57):
.
Tim (11:57):
You know, be educated and talk to people that have been
there, I think is another goodthing.
You know to inform yourdecisions, I guess I think
there's this interesting thingand this is something that I
think translates very well intotech that we see.
Tech that we see, um is thatcompanies with a lot of
resources a lot of resourcestend to make really dumb
decisions.
Right, and companies with not alot of resources tend to make
really dumb decisions, but fordifferent reasons, right, um,
(12:22):
companies with a lot ofresources resources make dumb
decisions because why, why not?
Was it going to hurt them?
Right?
And companies who don't have alot of resources tend to make
dumb decisions just because theydidn't have enough or the
capability or access toinformation to make good choices
.
Right?
But then companies that are morethoughtful and everything like
that, that haven't gotten toobig, they tend to you see, those
(12:43):
ones who are smart, they'remaking good choices because good
choices, because they have thatculture of perpetuating good
decisions and informed decisionsand stuff like that, and they
haven't gotten so big that theydon't really suffer consequences
for anything that happens.
Right, and that's kind of likewhat that ideal size, I think
for a company, when a companydoes something exciting, this
company is new, this company isgreat, they're doing smart,
they're doing smart, they'redoing, they're making an impact.
(13:04):
That's usually when they're atthat size.
Right, I feel like maybe ourmilitary and this may not have
been what you wanted to talkabout, but here we are I feel
like maybe our military maybesuffers from the first, of
having way too many resources,and then they're preying on the
(13:25):
people who suffer from thesecond one, which is not enough
resources, and the two combineddon't make good decisions
together sometimes.
And maybe it's like, maybe ifwe made them more agile, like
literally more, you know, likelet's, let's cut back, let's run
lean, let's figure out, youknow, if we don't have all these
resources what do we have to do?
William (13:46):
That sounds like it makes a lot of sense to me, but
yeah, I'm no, of course I'm noexpert there.
But yeah, I mean our governmentand the military.
it is you know, we're just hugeand it seems like you know the
government just gets bigger andbigger and more money gets
poured into you know some of thesame programs, without the
programs maybe changing.
So so much, but yeah, I don'tknow really what the right
(14:11):
answer is.
But one good segue for thisconversation and one thing that
I definitely wanted to touch onwas you know, I've followed you
on Twitter for a while and Ican't remember when I first
heard about I think you were ona podcast.
Honestly, I think it was.
It might've been one of theDuck Bill Group podcasts that
you recorded with Corey, and Ihope this is an okay observation
(14:34):
.
But you do a pretty good job ofbeing someone that doesn't let
your job or the company you workfor sort of define you, if that
makes sense.
No, it does and you have a tonof experience across many really
(14:56):
like a lot of big vendors, somestartups and even, I think you
have some enterprise companiesthrown in there as well.
A wealth of experience.
Can you give us a brief?
Because one of the things it'snot just the companies that
you've worked for, but you'veactually worked in a lot of
different, a diverse amount ofareas, whether it's database,
(15:20):
linux, admin, yeah, and that'swhere I grinded on and when I
got my start, it was all Linux,all the time managing Linux
servers, before we had fancytools to manage fleets of yeah.
So how did you sort of evolvefrom that?
I guess some would call thatlike traditional infrastructure,
(15:42):
but you've really and Iactually just sent Yvonne an
article today.
I don't know if you had achance to look at it, yvonne,
but it was about how, in tech,you have to basically to stay
relevant, you have to learn newtechnologies and you have to
keep chugging along.
So if you stay stagnant, you'reessentially going to, you're
going to have a hard timegetting a job and keeping a job,
(16:02):
which is a good thing and a badthing, I guess, because you
want to keep learning but also,at the same time, you want some
stability without being forcedto have to go into multiple
areas.
But can you kind of give us asort of a background of how you
pivoted from that traditionalinfrastructure the Linux admin,
tim Banks to really a communitypresence, a DevOps presence,
(16:25):
open source presence, you'reeverywhere.
So how did how did that sort ofhappen?
Tim (16:30):
I mean the, the, the.
The ridiculously practicalanswer is money, um, but.
But there's more nuance to that.
But no, I went, I, I chased themoney, because that's why I'm
here, um, and it's interestingbecause you talk about, like me,
not defining myself throughwhatever company I work for and
stuff like that is because I'mliterally only here for the
(16:53):
money and I can be bought, Right, well, actually, I take that
back.
I can be rented, I can beleased.
You can't buy me.
That's a better way to say it,right, but you know, I would
look at what was in demand,because that's what was paying
the most and what was alsowithin my capability of learning
the fastest.
Right.
(17:14):
And if you notice, a lot of thethings I put, you know, go from,
like you know, system admin,linux admin, to database admin.
That was because a Linux adminworking for LAMP web hosts.
You had to do Apache, you hadto do the Linux operations, you
had to do Cel.
You had to do a ton of MySQL,right, you had to learn PHP and
Perl and all these other, youknow.
You had to learn WordPress.
(17:35):
You had to learn Drupal andJoomla and everything else that
folks were using.
But the one thing, the twothings that were always present,
right and on those systems werealways Apache and MySQL.
And nobody paying a lot ofmoney for Apache admins anymore,
right, they're paying money forMySQL admins, right.
(17:58):
But so then you get into likedatabases and data structures
and how data works and in andout and optimization and things
like that.
And then you're like, oh well,what else runs data back and
forth?
Well, it's just no SQL stuff.
So you like, oh well, what elseruns data back and forth?
And let's just no SQL stuff.
So you know, jumping into someMongoDB as it comes up and then
working MongoDB, and then, likeyou know, working in shops, it's
like, oh well, devops, allthese, all these tools.
(18:19):
So you're a Linux admin and youdo a database.
So here we have a state store,we're going to do all these CICD
tools.
So here you go, this is yoursnow, because I wasn't a dev,
because, but I know Linuxsystems work.
Now, this is just a new Linuxsystem to maintain, right.
But then you learn, like, youknow these, you know these
softwares, like that, and itgoes into, you know it moves
(18:41):
that way.
But the thing that was that isinteresting about that, the
thing that that I will say thatI'm good at is that the
particular syntax or theparticular implementation of
whatever technology is, is veryrelevant to me.
It's the process, it is thethings that this is what we're
trying to do.
This is how you understand theproblem.
We're trying to do this and wewant to do this, and we're going
to do this, and this is howwe're going to do it.
(19:02):
This is how it's going to helpus.
This is why it's important,right?
And those are the things thatyou can draw circles around in
pretty much every piece oftechnology that you use, and the
things that you can relate oneto another make it easy to learn
, right?
I'm a pattern recognizer.
That's what I do, right.
That's why I play music, that'swhy I do jujitsu, that's why I
cook, that's why you know, I dotech, like all these things I do
(19:23):
.
It comes from patternrecognition and finding, like
the context behind it and theunderlying fundamentals, and
that's pretty much all ofcomputing, but also it's like
some of your personalities.
I don't, I'm not a developer.
I just don't have the.
I don't have the patience forit.
Gosh, I just don't.
I code just good enough to getdone what I'm trying to do.
But don't ever ask me to writesomething that's going to make
(19:45):
money.
That's just that's money.
That's just throwing good moneyafter bad.
I'm just not good at it.
But then I made this pivot frombeing an engineer to being more
consultative, being a TAM andthen a solutions architect, and
then Deb Rel and back now as asolutions architect, because the
thing that I like to do is Ilike to talk to people and
figure out how they're trying touse tech, like what are your
(20:06):
problems?
What are you trying to solvewith this tech?
Because in the end, that's allthat matters to me.
The tech is an implementationdetail, right.
What are you trying to do?
What do you need, right.
What are your actual goals?
Right, and that's the thingthat I think a lot of people,
especially in engineering wise,they don't see past, you know
committing to production, butthey're real-life, breathing
(20:33):
people on the other side of thatcomputer, on that phone,
whatever, who are using thistech to do something trivial or
something dramatically importantto a lot of people's lives, and
you have to understand why, oryou have to understand what
they're doing, otherwise youmiss a lot of stuff, and so and
so the why becomes important towhat you're doing and then when
(20:55):
you use the why, the end goal,why to inform that you can make
a lot smarter decisions aboutwhat you're doing, tech wise, to
meet those goals, cause youhave the context behind the
requirements and so the pursuitof that Right.
Eyvonne (21:22):
Is what's led me to where I am in my career that,
ultimately, that you see enoughpatterns over time and they all
look the same, even when it's anew implementation.
I'd love you to we talked alittle bit about storytelling
before we started recording, andI'd love for you to talk a
(21:42):
little bit about how thosecustomer conversations weave
together and help build storiesto understand and explain the
tech.
I've heard a lot ofconsternation, sometimes from
technologists about, well, it'sjust a story.
But in my mind, it's never justa story.
(22:04):
Stories aren't always false andstories help us make sense of
our world, so I'd love for youto talk a little bit more about
that piece of what you do.
Tim (22:13):
So, whenever I like to talk to a customer and you probably
saw this when I came in here I'mnever going to come in here,
we're never going to starttalking about tech Never,
because, again, I don't actuallydon't care, right?
I want to know who you are, Iwant to know about you, right,
and I want to know what you'retrying to do, right, because
about you and who you areinforms what you're trying to do
(22:35):
and how you're trying to goabout it, right?
So I'm going to sit down andwe're going to talk about.
Hey man, as you saw, like Iwant to see about this cool
thing you have back now, likethat tells me about who you are,
right?
Like I sat down and William waslike, oh, that's a really cool
sign, and then William told me astory about that little sign,
and now it gives me a little bitof information about William
(22:56):
and who they are, and then howthey go about doing things and
what things excite them, right.
And so, with that, now I canlike oh, that's a basis for me
to be able to relate for thisperson because, oh yeah, I love
that, or I don't know anythingabout that.
Please tell me this.
And that's my favorite thing.
I know I'm totally ignorantabout this thing, please tell me
about it.
And to watch people get excitedabout those things, I love it.
(23:18):
But when people realize you areactually there to listen to
them, they will talk.
And they're going to talk toyou like they're talking, not
like they're presenting or notlike they're representing, right
.
And then you're going to getwhat I like to call the real tea
.
You know, I'm not going to get.
I don't want your avatar, Idon't want the representative.
(23:40):
Look, just just talk to me.
What is what is actually tryingto go on?
Like, how can I help you?
You are here because somebodyis holding your feet to the fire
sometimes.
Right, I need to know what youneed, right, and if we can do it
, great.
But I need to know that right,because you're going to spit in
me requirements that maybe ormaybe not requirements, but even
the priorities are going to bedifferent once I know it is what
you're trying to do.
Right.
(24:00):
Are you trying to make animpact?
Are you trying to clean upsomebody's mess mess?
Are you trying to do dramaticimpact?
Is the business in trouble oris the business great and we're
trying to find a way in thefuture?
Like what is that?
What is the goal?
What do you when, when this isall said and done and you're
home and you're happy about it,what happened?
Yeah, I know that.
William (24:20):
like all the best sales people that I've ever talked to
or like heard a pitch from oreven worked with, like they've
all.
They all have maybe differentunique skills, but I feel like
something that they all didreally well was like storytell,
and this is a craft that's asold as this human civilization,
you know.
Campfire style storytellingespecially, and our lovely
(24:41):
career of information technology, you know, becomes really
important because, you know,again we were talking before we,
we hit record and you, you'renot going to remember that
feature pitch, but you willremember a story.
You just they, they somehowjust stick, uh, they stick with
you really and that's somethingthat I've recently actually like
(25:03):
.
Over the past year or so I'vehad many people reach out and
then you know just askingbasically, how do I get better
at storytelling, how do you evenbegin to go down?
That you know, because asengineers, if all you do is like
work in code and you have yourcode base and that is where
you're grinding like day in andday out, you're maybe not even
(25:24):
talking to to humans during theday except for like a stand-up,
maybe not even talking to humansduring the day except for like
a stand up.
And maybe you know, I think,through the pandemic and
everything, there was such along pause on in-person events,
like even local events, and Ilove local events and it was
hard on me, but just not havinghuman interaction and not having
(25:44):
you know it kind of sets youback a little bit.
But do you have any tips on howfolks can sort of pivot from
that product pitching mentalityfirst to more of a
conversational story?
Tim (25:58):
There's a couple of ways, and let me I'm going to do this
by telling you a story.
So KubeCon 2023 was an EU wasin.
Amsterdam.
Right, amsterdam is a fairlydiverse city but a lot of black
people there, but pretty diverse.
I needed a haircut right andusually when I go to conferences
(26:20):
I go down to get a haircutthere, just for the experience.
My partner at the time wasgreat at finding me a black
barber in this place in theJordan area of Amsterdam, an old
mosque right.
It was an old mosque that hadbeen repurposed into a barber
shop that had like a little barin it, had a little African and
(26:40):
Caribbean food truck in it andthere was a place where the
African diaspora aroundAmsterdam gathered.
So there was folks from NewYork City, from LA, from Oakland
, from the Caribbean, from NewYork City, from LA, from Oakland
, from the Caribbean, from allover Africa et cetera, from all
over Europe was all in thisplace Cacophony of accents and
great, great conversations,great, you know, food and
everything like that.
(27:01):
So I'm getting my hair cut inthis beautiful prayer alcove
I'll have to find a picture ofit.
It's stunning, stunning mosaictile in this thing and I'm
getting my haircut in thislittle mirror set up with my
barber.
His name was Will.
I think his name was also Willand he was from Trinidad, and
(27:24):
then I was supposed to have ameeting with Kelsey Hightower
and I was like I'm selling thisplace.
I'll come up to you, rick.
So Kelsey Hightower walks in,he sits down at this bench and
he and I start talking.
I'm getting a haircut, I've gotlike a hot towel over my face,
my mouth is exposed and I'mhaving this conversation with
him.
Um and this, this, and I clearby by at least a decade I'm the
oldest person in this place.
Kelsey's not far behind, right,um and uh.
(27:47):
And well, what do you guys do?
And so we work in tech.
Oh, what's it like?
And so Kelsey proceeds to tellour barber and the listening
people about how to relate whatwe do right, as developer
advocates in technology to thework that they do as people who
work on barber and stuff likethat.
And it's like you know, whenyou cut someone's hair, you
(28:08):
don't just come and define, youdon't just come and decide what
you're going to do and blah,blah, blah.
You talk to them, you get anidea of what they want, how it
looks, what kind of you know,you consider all these factors
and use your experience and thenyou make something right.
You're making something rightFor this person and they walk
away from this and they want tofeel good about what they did
right.
It's like that's all we do.
This is literally all we do.
(28:29):
Right, we make something thatpeople say they want.
We're going to talk to them tofigure out what it is, and our
job as dev rels are the folkswho do the talking and the
listening and then convey thething that folks want to the
people who are in charge ofactually producing it.
Right, and to have thisconversation in a mosque
(28:56):
essentially where I'm getting myhair cut, you know in the
middle of Amsterdam, with one ofthe greatest storytellers I've
ever seen Right, was a true.
It was.
It was like a life changingmoment for me to really give an
understanding of why the work wedo is impactful Right To the
people that do it.
William (29:05):
And so the notion of being a fly on the wall there
that sounds like an amazingexperience.
Tim (29:10):
Um and and with the.
The thing that I take away fromthat, and how this relates to
storytelling, is that the firstthing you have to be able to do
to tell a story is you have tobe able to relate to the
listener, right?
You have to speak in a way thatthey're going to be able to
relate to, especially if theydon't know what you're talking
about.
So when you hear me talk abouttech, you'll hear me talk about
(29:32):
tech in the context of cookingor jujitsu or building a house
or other things that I've done,that people can, even if they
haven't done themselves, atleast relate to something that
is more accessible to them thanmaybe container orchestration,
you know.
So find the way to relate topeople, the people find a way.
(29:55):
You want to tell your story forthe person who knows absolutely
nothing about what you'retalking, right?
Yeah, because if you can conveythe information to them, then
you can convey it to everyone.
Eyvonne (30:07):
When one of the things that stands out to me about all
that you're saying is thatyou're not talking about
speaking to be heard.
You're talking about relatingwith the person that's hearing
and starting with the listener,not starting with yourself, and
I think that's a key trait ofthose who actually communicate
(30:31):
well and want to get theirmessage across.
They don't start withthemselves.
They always have an idea oftheir values, of their beliefs,
of what they want to communicate, but they're connecting with a
person and they put that otherperson or group of people first
in order to figure out how torelate.
And I think that's that's asuper important reality in what
(30:56):
you're saying to call out.
Tim (30:59):
I think what's also important too.
There's a lot of people who areused to being listened to,
right?
I don't.
I don't have to hear them fromthem, to be honest, really.
And be very honest, the peoplewho are used to being listened
to all the time.
I don't have to hear from thembecause I already know what they
want.
They've already told us, right.
There's a lot of people therewho are not used to being
listened to or, more to thepoint, who are not used to being
(31:20):
talked to.
Right, and their stories arevery important, right, because
they're going to have differentperspectives from the people
you're used to hearing from allthe time and there's no
innovation in doing the samething over and over again, right
?
So I want to hear from theperson who hasn't spoken.
I want to hear from the personwho's in the meetings but hasn't
(31:41):
gotten the talk right.
Or, more to the point,especially if it's a place where
they don't really feel good atall.
It's like, hey, let me catchyou after this, real quick, I've
got a question for you.
And then, hey, what do youthink about this thing?
Like you can just like, justfor real, just blah, blah, blah,
blah.
I feel like your insights mightbe different.
(32:01):
Talk to me about it, you know,and just put them at ease and
let them bite into a morsel thatthey'd never been offered
before.
William (32:11):
Yeah, that's great, um, and yeah, that's just such a
cool and cool story, cool place,you know, having a Kelsey
Hightower there and I rememberwhen he, when he was gonna, he
announced his retirement, I wasjust like, oh, I hope he doesn't
stop tweeting.
I hope he just doesn'tdisappear, because his tweets
are just so good.
Every tweet that he tweets outis like they're all good.
(32:35):
He's just such a good person.
As far as conveying information, guess not to.
Let's see how are we doing ontime.
We gotta, we still got a littlebit of time.
But one thing I wanted to, youknow, sorry to pivot so quickly,
but one thing that I I lovethat you do.
Yeah, I just want to fit so muchin um, but brazilian jiu-jitsu,
(32:59):
um, you know, there, there'smany things in life that serve
like multi-faceted purposessports, for instance, like,
especially when you're young.
You know they can serve as alike a springboard for, like,
developing social skills orteaching.
You know get teaching,discipline, you know focus,
patience, even reducing.
(33:21):
You know taking that stresslevel down.
You know building your, yourconfidence, like.
The list goes on.
A lot of these things can, youknow, actually serve as a great
foundation and support for your,your mental health.
Really, um, and so you're,you're a very skilled and
competitive um in brazilianjiu-jitsu.
I think you teach it as well,don't you?
(33:41):
Yes, that's awesome yeah, I'm,I'm.
Tim (33:46):
I fingers crossed.
I should get my black belt thisyear.
William (33:50):
Nice.
That's awesome and I mean kudosto you, for you know just a lot
of uh, a lot of folks that Iknow sort of lose, you know,
maybe they did something as akid or maybe they didn't pick it
up until they were an adult,but then they do it for a little
while and they just stop, youknow, cause life gets busy and I
(34:13):
think it's important to havesomething outside of work or
something that's yours that youcan kind of focus on, that you
can stick with.
It's just something that youlove.
But when did you start learningBrazilian Jiu Jitsu and how is
it?
You know, I imagine it's been anet positive in your life
overall, personally andprofessionally.
How did that evolve?
Tim (34:32):
Yeah, I've been training in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for seven
years, as of August.
So I've been training BrazilianJiu-Jitsu for seven years, as
of August, which is, you know,I've been a brown belt for about
a year and a half now.
So it grows in the ranks fairlyquickly.
But I trained a lot.
And the thing that I like aboutBrazilian Jiu-Jitsu, which I
(34:56):
think makes it stand out from alot of other things, is the
number of boxes it checks for alot of people Like, first and
foremost, yes, it is a physicalactivity, you are going to get
out there, you're going to sweat, you're going to need some
stuff, you're going to getflexibility, you're going to get
strength, you're going to getendurance.
Yes, those are the things thathappen, right, it's also a
thinking person's game.
(35:16):
It is chess.
It is very high-level,high-stakes chess with dire
physical consequences, I think,as Joe Brogan said at some time
or another.
But the other thing it is it istied very deeply to like human
psychology, in the way that thething that you do more than
anything else in jujitsu is youtouch other people, you have
(35:38):
your hands on somebody, you'remaking contact with another
person platonically, sometimesviolently, but whatever for
hours a day, right.
So the thing about higher orderprimates, right.
The thing that you see incommon with all of them is that
they bond by touch, like theirsocial circles.
They touch, they groom, they dowhatever like that.
That is how they bond is viatouch, right?
(35:59):
They communicate vocally,verbally, like that, but when
you see them all together,they're all hugged on each other
, touching.
That's the thing they do.
That's the things human used todo in our, in our, in you know,
a long time ago.
Some of the cultures embrace it, ours doesn't.
Really, we don't touch nobody,right.
We shake their hands, likemaybe we hug family members or
something like that, but for byand large, we don't touch
anybody, right?
Not great for your mentalhealth.
Until you realize, once youstart doing something where you
(36:21):
touch somebody on the trust, youbuild confidence, you build a
rapport with someone right thatyou can't have otherwise.
Right?
There are people I will go.
There are people that will pay$250 to sign up to go up onto a
mat to have someone choke themwith an inch of their lives and
(36:42):
then when they tap them, they'regoing to stop.
That sounds ludicrous.
This person was about to killyou, but they're not going to
kill you why?
Because you tapped on theirshoulder Like that.
Just it sounds silly, like onits face, but that's exactly
what it is.
It's a respect and it's a trustthat you don't get like that
(37:02):
from in any other environment.
And when you can bond like thatwith someone or someone in the
same practice, right, becauseyou both wear the gi, you both
have the belt someone or someonein the same practice, right,
because you, you both wear thegi, you both have the belt,
you've been to the same thinglike that, it's a sense of
community that that is, uh, thatis really hard to find.
It's hard to find a parallelfor it anywhere else in the
world.
William (37:20):
You know what I'm saying again, yeah, and I think
sports, especially like you canI mean everybody needs something
outside of work.
I mean if you, especially likeyou can I mean everybody needs
something outside of work.
I mean if you, especially ifyou work in tech, you're
constantly sitting, I sit allthe time and that has that has
consequences.
So, yeah, I mean you could goride a bike or you could go do
(37:40):
other things.
But kind of like what you'resaying, you know when you have
something, you know whatever itis, where you can, you know
build that relationship withother people, you're not alone.
You know whether it's a teamsport.
Well, even I guess jujitsuwouldn't be considered a team
sport.
Well, I guess it kind of is ateam sport Like not when you're
one-on-one.
Tim (37:58):
But, yeah, you compete as an individual, you train as a
team.
The thing about jujitsu rightthat I really like more than
anything else is you can't havean ego.
When you do jujitsu right,you're going to do nothing but
lose for at least your firstseveral months of doing it.
You're going to get beat andget thrown.
(38:20):
You're going to get choked.
Every everything imaginable isgoing to happen to you and
you're not even going to knowwhat's going on.
Right, you cannot go intojujitsu with an ego, right?
Um, some people will developone later on as they get good,
but again, it gets checked soquickly, right, I start my day
right In an earnest struggle formy life with a 300 pound dude
sweating into my mouth, tryingto choke me to death while I own
(38:41):
clothing like everything elseafter.
That really gets perspective.
William (38:47):
Yeah, that's one way to put it.
Yeah, and then sitting at yourdesk or having, uh, you know, an
email that needs to go out late, doesn't seem exactly not at
all.
Tim (38:55):
Okay, yeah, it's not too yeah, exactly you know, and it's
that level of um, I don't knowthat I would call it zen, but I
would certainly call it aperspective on what's important
and what isn't important.
Um it, and sometimes it getsyou in trouble, because I look
at people's like serioussituations and everyone's trauma
is relative, for sure.
But I'm like, oh my gosh, you,I don't know it will be, it will
(39:18):
be just fine, my guy, I promise, and we'll send out your little
email exactly.
William (39:26):
the work's always going to be there the next day, I
promise.
Tim (39:28):
That's it.
That's it, it's going to bethere Again.
William (39:32):
Pivoting into one more area that I wanted to touch on,
you have a pretty big voice inthe community and you've had
some good opinions over theyears In the form of tweets from
the ones that I'm referencingabout the current state of open
source and just community, ofcommunity in general.
And I know Yvonne's actuallybeen a big staple in the network
engineering community over theyears.
(39:53):
Back when podcasting wasbecoming cool and popular, she
had started.
Did you co-host a networkcollective, Yvonne?
Eyvonne (40:01):
or did you start?
It I was a co-host.
Tim (40:04):
Yeah Well, co-founder with my partners Get it right.
William (40:13):
No, yeah, well, co-founder with my partners,
yeah, get it right now.
So, yeah, I mean, both of youhonestly have done much more for
and with the community thanI've had an opportunity to do at
this point.
So I I guess my question to you, tim, is you know what is?
How do you see the?
Yeah, I feel like the communityactually coming out of covid
has been really bubbling up in areally awesome way.
The CNCF is doing some prettyawesome and amazing things.
(40:36):
I've had a few folks on to talkabout hotel or open telemetry
and just really awesome thingsgoing on there, but also open
source at the same time, sinceit's kind of having an identity
crisis in some regard with somelicensing changes, as of late,
(40:58):
it seems like one comes alongevery once in a while and just
lights it back on fire again.
But, yeah, do you have anythoughts there?
Tim (41:05):
I think it's interesting that you bring up the CNCF in
this regard, because I feel likethe CNCF started off with a
sense of community and how it'sjust a corporate overlord.
Right it is a vehicle formaking money with very highly
highly paid board members.
Right, that use you know theguise of community and not
(41:25):
saying that it's all.
It's all smoke and mirrors, butcertainly some smoke and some
mirrors right To to funnel moneyinto, into companies doing work
.
To to grow the Kuberneteslandscape.
Right.
William (41:38):
So the Kubernetes supercar, I guess the Kubernetes
Corvette.
Tim (41:42):
Kinda kinda and and and I and I draw that distinction
between something like the CNCF.
And then you look at the ApacheSoftware Foundation, which has
software that we all rely on.
Even everything in theKubernetes project relies on
something in the Apache SoftwareFoundation.
Right, everything there is free.
There's not a company that'slike, okay, we're going to get
(42:04):
this, but we're going to get it.
It's like who hasn't used HDBD?
Who hasn't used Bind?
You know what I'm saying?
Like, these things are thereand it's a different mindset,
right.
But is that community?
Nah, no, it's part of thecommunity, like the open source.
It is open source software, butthe community is different than
the both of those, right, Ilook at something in the
(42:32):
community.
The first place I'm looking isDevOps days.
The first place I'm looking isyour local user group meetups.
These are places wherecorporations can sponsor and
come in, but it is not thrown bya corporation, it is for the
user.
I want user forward conferencesthat are there so that the
users and the communities likethat can get together and talk
with each other, not be talkedat, not be presented, to not be
(42:54):
pitched, right.
And that's what OpenSourcereally is.
That it's heart and soul.
It's not a group of people tobe sold to, right, it's a group
of people who are building stufffor the people who, for the
people, for the builder and thenfor the community at large,
first and foremost.
Can somebody make money off it?
Sure, right, great, go do that.
(43:15):
But it's not.
It is not.
It's not.
It's not a seller's, it's notsellers and buyers.
And that's what I feel like alot of it has moved towards, and
that's why you're seeing a lotof these issues around the, you
know, like the licensing andstuff like well, why is it there
?
Oh, it's, you know, the companyhas to make money and we don't
(43:35):
want other people to make moneyand we got to differentiate.
I'm like, look, here's thething, dog.
The company's success is notthe community's problem.
That is your problem, right,and?
And if your notion of successfor the company is going to be
the expense of the community,the community is not going to.
I take that very much, right.
Um, you know, and it's funny,you know, it was just a few days
(43:59):
ago Elastic switched theirlicense back to say now that
they're going to use a set oflicense that um is, um is going
to be, you know, makes it trulyopen source because of their
dispute about amazon, amazonforked open search and like why?
Why do we go through all this?
What was the end?
You know what I'm saying?
(44:20):
Like for what?
And and that's the thing Ithink that that's really weird
is that these companies aredoing battles with other
companies and they're catchingthe community in the middle of
it.
For what?
And that's the part that reallysucks the most.
William (44:35):
I saw that happen really hard with the HashiCorp
license changes in the community.
I guess it's mainly because Iwas closer to that community
than some of the othercommunities and it just kind of
like so many folks wereconflicted because there were so
many good people on than someof the other communities and it
just kind of like so many folkswere conflicted because there
was so many good people on bothsides that were impacted.
Tim (44:56):
It just it was terrible to watch unfold it feels like
betrayal right, and not just forthe people who are of the
community, but the people at thecompany whose job it was to
relate to and talk to and getthe feedback from the community,
because they were not the one,they were not privy to these
decisions, their feedback hadpartner.
This is all done in boardrooms,right.
(45:18):
And those are the people and wetalked about good.
We've got to bring it back tocontext and storytelling.
Those are the people thatshould be in the community right
before you make these decisions, if you cared about them, right
.
But if you're going to makethat decision and you're not
members of the community andyou're not getting out there,
then don't, don't.
Don't play in my face tellingme it's like oh, we're so,
probably, no, you're not.
(45:39):
No, you're not.
You never were Not you.
You know you hire your dev rels.
They're part of the communityand they're the ones that are
catching all the brunt for thisyeah, do you?
William (45:48):
think the bigger that some of these organizations, so
I guess they I mean they areorganizations at the end of the
day, whether they're non-profitsor not.
I guess, like, the more thebigger something gets and the
more people that are involved inthe bigger board that you have,
just the bigger, the bigger,the bigger, the more voices and
the more okay we have morevoices.
We have to appease this sideand that side.
(46:09):
Do you think that's when itsort of gets out of control?
Because I know that I'm goingto be speaking at this upcoming
conference.
That is just the right sizeconference and it's really
community grounded.
I don't think they have morethan like 300 people that they
will allow to attend the wholething.
There's like some, you knowthere's a number and they don't
(46:33):
want to get, they don't want togo past a certain point because
they don't want to lose thespirit of it being about the
community and kind of like whatyou said earlier.
You know vendors can come andsponsor, but the first event
that they did, they had all thevendors in one hall so you could
go in and talk to them if youwanted to, but it was really
separate from all the otherstuff that was going on, which
was really, really impactful andit really you really had the
(46:54):
best of the community theretalking really about valuable
things.
I think it's yeah, there's thatgrowth mindset, though they
think they have to growsometimes and I think that's
when it gets in trouble to growsometimes, and I think that's
when it gets in trouble.
Tim (47:09):
There is a and not to, not to, not to lean too heavily into
my politics, but but I've saidin the past that that capitalism
sickens everything it touches.
Right, and I say that in thiscontext, because you can have a
bright and thriving communityand then you're going to have a
board member from a corporationwho's going to like, hey, we're
(47:30):
going to get on the board.
Or some VCs, hey, we're goingto get on the board, right, and
they turn it into a businessbecause that's the only thing
they know how to do, right.
And as soon as a growing,thriving community starts to
take that turn, it's all over bythe crying.
At that point, right, and and Iwould love to see more
(47:51):
communities outright rejectcorporate, you know, influence
on their boards, on whateverlike that, or vc influence like
no, this should be the community, like I want the community
members to, to, to be, uh,stewards of this and to guide
this ship.
William (48:08):
Um, yeah, but kind of goes back to whoever's writing
the paycheck is kind of who'sgoing to be making the decisions
, if you will.
Eyvonne (48:16):
Well, that's a that's a question of scale too.
I was just going to say causeas your community scales, like
it doesn't scale linearly.
Linearly as the community getsbigger if you want to do meetups
, the more expensive it is toget everybody together, the more
coordination and planning ittakes, the more organization,
(48:37):
the more effort with outsizeddonations or investments from
corporations that expectsomething you know return on
their investment.
Tim (48:56):
And that's the difficult line to walk right, and I think
that last part you said is thereturn on investment.
Right, because they look atcommunity sponsorship as a sales
opportunity, right, and not aninvestment in the community.
And those things are too.
They can get the same moneyfrom the same booth but, like I
(49:18):
said, the context for whythey're doing it matters greatly
, right?
Companies that and there aresome companies there that just
support the community because wecan, we should be there, like,
yeah, here, you know, go, go, dothis thing.
Great, versus ones that want togo there to put a sales booth
and to get opportunities andlike, okay, I get this and we do
this.
And then like, if they don'thave sales opportunities and
(49:39):
they don't get a good ROI,they're not going to sponsor it
anymore.
Right, and?
And and you see that coming outto play whenever the money
starts to dry up, like, orwhenever times get tough, they,
they kill community sponsorships.
Right, because they're notsales opportunities, because
(50:01):
it's not an investment.
Um, and, and that's that's thetell, right, and I, so I think,
when communities, yes, can youscale, sure, should you scale?
Maybe One thing I learned aboutrestaurants is, like, it's okay
to tell people we're full or wecan't seat you today, right,
because if you try to do toomuch you're going to lose it all
.
Right, you know you relate thestory over and over and over
(50:23):
again.
Right, you cannot scale beyondyour capacity to handle things.
Especially handle things if youknow how you go about doing it
matters.
And if you're trying to grow,have organic growth, the
community, and keep thecommunity at the forefront and
keep corporate out and not makemoney.
Maybe you can't scale worldwide, but you have a bunch of little
(50:43):
small communities, blah, blah,blah.
You know.
Hey, you got this littlecommunity over here.
Give it, give it, give it there.
Great, that's fine.
You know.
Blah, you know.
Hey, you got this littlecommunity over here.
Give it, give it, give it overthere.
It's great, that's fine.
You know, this is in the, theway the internet works today.
If y'all are meeting togetherand they're meeting together,
hey, maybe you just have avirtual thing.
Maybe you go on a little roadtrip, maybe people pop in here.
Or, hey, members of thiscommunity are all going to this
one big, big conference.
(51:04):
Right, this big, let's have alittle user group meetup for
these people over here, right,and it's like that.
So find your opportunities,right, um, but like I said, the
longer, the more you get intohaving the same players right
for the money that they're.
William (51:19):
They are not there to help the community, they're
there to help themselves yeah,so I've got one last question
and then I'll open up the floorfor avon, after um, after this,
but so it's okay.
We're in 2024 and 2024 is goingway too fast.
So, as you see, like thecommunity as it is today, like
(51:44):
in sort of the circles that wefrequent, and the state of open
source and where open source istoday, do you see it as like a
glass half full, glass halfempty, like do you see it
trending positive or do you seeit degrading and not sticking to
its roots?
What are you?
What is your shake for thefuture?
Tim (52:03):
I'm going to say, right now , we're at an inflection point,
right, the battle for opensource is also the battle for
open standards for AI and openaccess to data and seeing how,
how these decisions are made,how why they're made and things
like that, and the companiesdon't want to do that.
The corporations are makingthem, they're not inclined to
(52:24):
want to give us access to thatinformation and it's like okay,
so how do we do this safely?
And how do we do this safelyand how do we do this openly?
How do we do this transparentlyfor and with the community?
And you know, as goes that fategoes, probably a lot of other
things, right, we're in thispoint where you're having so
(52:45):
much AI-generated content that'ssupposed to feed the community.
That is just junk, right, whichyou and Yvonne and I were long
enough in the tooth to know thatit's junk.
But if I'm just starting out, Idon't know any better.
I don't know who's feeding meLLM generated crap, you know,
(53:07):
and is that?
And so, like, we have to thinkabout not the community in 2025.
When you think about acommunity in 2035, like, what is
it?
What is the thing that we'regoing to have for them?
And that I don't have an answerfor that, sad as I am to say,
and it scared the hell out of meright now, because I don't know
who's going to win on this andI buy it and I and I and I and I
(53:28):
pitch it as winning becausesome people are definitely
trying to win and they're tryingto make other people lose,
right, and it's going to bewho's going to conglomerate the
money the most in these largeorganizations.
Who make money now off of AI,who make money off of this
software, make money out of thatsoftware.
Things are getting, you know,no-transcript movie generation
(54:23):
or audio generation, and thenwe're talking about who's going
to be in control of what we seeand what we read, and I just
don't know that.
I want a corporate boardroom tobe in charge of that.
So those are decisions that weas practitioners and we as the
workers who generate thistechnology we have to make.
(54:43):
We have to make the decisionsright, because the people in the
boardrooms, they actually can'tdo any of this.
They don't know how to do this.
If they could, they would bedoing it.
They probably wouldn't want us.
William (54:52):
But they can't do it at scale, so the decision comes
down to us you know, we've seenthe floundering of boardroom
boardroom bingo, if you willyeah over the past year or two
too, it's been a little bitcontentious as well, yeah, but
in the.
Tim (55:04):
In the end, we're the ones making the tech.
We're the ones deploying the.
We're the ones making the tech.
We're the ones deploying thetech.
We're the ones who are gettingeverything networked together.
We're the ones who make thedocumentation.
It is up for us to decide howwe work with the context of what
it is we're trying to do, andthat's the context we need to
find.
William (55:24):
Love it, love it.
Eyvonne (55:26):
You got anything else, yvonne the philosopher of cloud
(55:51):
a group of like-minded people,maybe without as much corporate
influence, that really want torub shoulders with other
practitioners.
What guidance do you have forfolks that maybe have a desire
to engage in community buthaven't done so yet?
What would you recommend?
Tim (56:02):
The first thing I would do is figure out where your comfort
level is with engaging withother people and then just like,
maybe push that like 5% Right,go to a meetup.
Maybe you don't talk to anybody, maybe you just go, go and
listen, be seen, you know, hearsome conversations, just be a
(56:23):
fly on the wall, get a feel forthe vibe, for the pulse of that
community and figure out ifthese are people you want to be
around.
You know whether it's thisspecific technology that you're
familiar with, a technology youwant to be familiar with.
Meet up for folks in a job youhave.
Meet up for folks in a job youwant.
Just go and check it out.
(56:43):
Like I said, you don't have tostay the whole time.
You can just eat the free pizzaand leave.
You know, like, whatever it isyou want to do, figure out what
your comfort levels.
If you're comfortable andyou're a social butterfly and
you just really need to get inthe foot, go to one.
You know, um, if you work withsomeone who is active in the
community, like, hey, what is it?
Where's the?
What's the one you'd recommend?
What's the one that?
(57:04):
A beginner-friendly meetup,because there's some meetups
that are just not for beginnersright, it's for you know.
It's like you know, going to anold head rap thing Like you
can't just be new to rap and goto an old head rap like meetup
and they're going to eat yourlie, dog.
But just figure out the rightplace, figure out what your
comfort level is and then dowhat feels right.
(57:25):
You know, because not everycommunity is great.
I like to think that most ofthem are, but they're not all
great.
If it's something doesn't feelright, don't do it.
Just do something else figure itout.
But but the desire and thewillingness to push just a
little bit, not a lot, just bumpup against what you're
typically comfortable with whenit comes to interacting with
other people.
Just push it a little bit, seehow it feels and then and then
(57:49):
go from there.
William (57:52):
I love that.
That's great.
And then your, your comfortlevel slowly is going to shift a
little bit If you find yourcommunity that you're
comfortable with and you fit inthe doors are going to open,
career wise and many other waysas well.
That's it Awesome.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
We went a little longer than wenormally go, but that was okay.
This is an awesome conversation.
(58:13):
Where can the folks out in theinterwebs find you?
Tim (58:18):
So I'm on Twitter at El Chefe.
I'm also on LinkedIn, I don'tknow.
I'm with Tim JB, I think iswhat I'm on LinkedIn.
If you're a LinkedIn person, Ithink is what I'm going to link
there If you.
If you're a LinkedIn person, um, you can.
I've got a blog at Tim dashbanksghostio, um, which I don't
update as often as I should.
(58:39):
I have, uh, as someone with,with profound ADHD, I've got
probably about 70 blogs started,um and like for publish right,
um, but um, but yeah, that'swhere you can find me, uh, me,
uh, you know.
Or if you see me out and about,like, um, you know, come
interact with me.
I'm, I'm, you know, I'm happyto talk to people.
I I have very clear signals.
If I'm peopled out, um, andyou'll probably, you know, just
(59:00):
hoodie up, headphones on,sunglasses, on whatever, like
that.
That's not the best time.
Any other time, come talk to me, right, um, and also, if you,
if you want to, if you want tolearn some jiu-jitsu, come down
to austin.
I teach private lessons.
Well, we can get in on itsomething now.
Well, you said you wrestle um,I did.
William (59:17):
It's been a long time, you don't.
Really it's like riding a bikein some sense, but yeah yeah, I
think I figured we can have.
Tim (59:23):
We can have a special edition, maybe like a patreon
members only, like one where youcome down and you and I will go
at it.
We'll have yvonne reffin, youknow.
William (59:30):
That'd be great sounds like too much fun, I probably I
get squashed.
Tim (59:35):
You destroy me cheesecake.
There we go.
I'm a pattern recognizer.
That's what I do right.
That's why I play music, that'swhy I do jujitsu, that's why I
cook, that's why you know I dotech.
Like all these things I do, itcomes from pattern recognition
and finding, like the contextbehind it and the underlying
fundamentals.
William (00:25):
Coming to you from the Cloud Gambit studio.
This is your host, william, andwith me my co-host, the
cheesecake crafting queen of theSouth, yvonne Sharp.
How are you doing today, yvonne?
Eyvonne (00:39):
That would be me, and I cannot quantify the number of
cheesecakes I've made in mycareer.
But now I can no longer eatdairy, so cheesecake is
completely a gift.
I make cheesecakes, I can stillmake it, but I don't get to eat
it.
William (00:53):
I've had one of them and it was very good.
It might be one of the bestcheesecakes I've ever tasted,
and it's not just the cheesecake, it's the homemade raspberry
topping with the chocolatedrizzle.
Eyvonne (01:04):
Yeah, anytime you're near Louisville, kentucky, and
you want to go for a scenicdrive, let me know and I'll make
you cheesecake.
Tim (01:12):
All right, just so you know my birthday did just pass and I
don't recall getting anythingfrom either of you.
Eyvonne (01:18):
Oh, okay, if you're ever in the area, let us know.
William (01:22):
You're on the Christmas card cheesecake list now, well,
and so I got to introduce ourguest.
So with us we have a veryspecial guest, uh, tim banks.
So first, of all how are youdoing on this fine, this
beautiful monday?
I don't know if it's beautifulin austin.
You're in austin, right?
Tim (01:40):
I am and it is, it is gorgeous.
So we've, um, you know, we havesurvived the Texas summer and
we've had our first full week,like in the eighties.
My air conditioner turned offat least twice yesterday, which
is, you know, that's.
That's a monumental time, but Ido it.
Well, it's sunny out, it'sclear, it's, it's.
It was breezy the morningstarted off in the fifties and
(02:00):
it was, it was wild.
Finished selling right, myright.
My birthday week, you know,concludes today like a week from
my birthday, and I had a greattime yesterday, uh, with some
friends and one of my partners,and it was just just.
I've been having an absoluteblast.
Probably, probably, actually.
No, I deserve the good timesI've been having.
I'm gonna be honest about that.
I've been, I've been, I've beenpretty good.
William (02:21):
So it was good food involved.
Tim (02:23):
Oh yeah, we went to a little Italian place.
It's kind of newish here inAustin, I'm not getting
sponsored by it.
The place is called Casa Bianca.
It was so good.
They've got kind of like in thesame style as you see
popularized here in Austin Otherplaces.
You just order it and theybring it out kind of random as
you order or whatever.
(02:44):
There's no sense of like anentrees like that.
You know, family, kids, familycourses, kona made to share
things like that.
It was so good, absolutelyfantastic.
Um, and then we finished offwith just a monstrously sized
and delicious um, uh, um,millefola, I think, is what they
call it in italian thousandleaves, whatever, whatever it
translates to in italian.
It's like it's what they callit in Italian A thousand leaves,
(03:06):
whatever it translates to inItalian.
It's like imagine a croissantas lasagna, but it's a pastry.
Eyvonne (03:12):
I'm intrigued, I'm really hungry now.
William (03:13):
Oh, it's so good.
Yeah, I know it's delicious.
Eyvonne (03:15):
All we've done is talk about food.
William (03:16):
I know I'm really hungry?
I actually haven't eatenanything today, because I'm kind
of doing this intermittentfasting thing so I'm like
starving.
Tim (03:22):
Okay, I love how you're kind of doing this intermittent
fasting.
You either do intermittentfasting or you don't, because if
you don't do it you're notdoing it Like it's.
It is a binary state in thatway.
William (03:32):
I do so.
I wish I, I wish I was moreconsistent with it.
But right now that what I'mdoing is three days a week I do
one meal, I just do like anearly dinner and I like doing
that.
But the thing is I can't do iton the days that I'm doing
sports or like doing anythinglike really active, or else I
get into like the pass out, I'mgonna pass out your kind of
(03:54):
phase I uh, I learned veryquickly that I cannot myself do
intermittent fasting.
Tim (03:58):
When I do jujitsu and and other people at the gym, you
know everyone has their turn oflike oh, I'm gonna do this.
And then they wonder why.
Like you know, everyone hastheir turn of like oh, I'm going
to do this.
And then they wonder why.
Like you know, they're like didyou, did you choke them out?
Like no, they just fell out, Ijust ran out of steam Not enough
protein today.
Is it.
William (04:14):
Yeah, so I actually and I noted down that restaurant
cause I I've been in Austin andusually like Austin or Dallas
for for work, and I think atsome point in the past few years
, the last time I visited,actually I was talking to
someone and I hadn't been inAustin for a while and it is
like blown up, it was since thelast time I'd been.
(04:37):
It was just crazy.
And then the person I was withhad said something I think they
said it is like the fastestgrowing major city in the us
over like the past five years orsomething like year over year
and it's a great place for foodit has become a great place for
food.
Tim (04:55):
It was always pretty good and it's a lot.
A lot of stuff has come in here, but it's it's in this weird
space where it's not it's not anew york or chicago on the level
of food, um, and it's, you know, like the pacific northwest and
like west coast, like where alot of influences came from.
They have proximity to the sea,which which helps them out.
(05:16):
A lot austin's landlocked, sowe have fantastic barbecue.
The mexican food is off thechain but, like for other things
, they're still trying to findthe right culinary niche to fit
in.
There's an incredible amount oftalent, incredible amount of
vision.
They just need to find theright thing that says this is
Austin cuisine and that's.
That's more than barbecue.
(05:36):
You know what I'm saying?
So they're, they're, they'refolks that are doing great stuff
.
I'm excited to see what comesof it, but it's not quite there
yet.
But, oh, kristen, I thinkKristen Nish, I think her name
is they were on Top Chef about10 years ago and then are now
one of the hosts on the FoodNetwork Top Chef, and they just
(06:00):
won an Emmy and they're basedhere, out of Boston.
That's cool.
William (06:06):
Before I forget, happy belated birthday, by the way.
Tim (06:08):
Well, thank you.
I'm in my last year of my 40sand I'm already planning my 50th
birthday party, just becauseit's going to be like, hey, why
not?
William (06:18):
The big one.
Yeah, sounds like fun.
Yeah, for sure.
Tim (06:21):
I know you all have plenty of years left before you get
there, but when it happens it'llbe fun.
William (06:29):
No, no, I'm one year behind you, so we're getting
there as well.
I read somewhere recently, Iguess in your, it was one of
your bios, I think it might havebeen LinkedIn, but you started
out kind of just your whole, Iguess, career in the US Marine
Corps and I think you yourspecialty was avionics.
Tim (06:52):
Yeah, yeah.
So I started off in the MarineCorps, you know, as my first job
and it was funny because I went, I joined the Marine Corps to
be in the Marine German BugleCorps actually auditioned for
and made the Marine Drum andBugle Corps at the headquarters
of 8th and I as a percussionistand I was going to go there.
(07:14):
It was going to be great.
I had a couple of buddies thatwere there.
I was like, yeah, I'm going togo play drums for the Marine
Corps, woo-hoo, right, you know,with red uniforms or like that,
blah um took my ass, fab wentto boot camp and in boot camp
they're like hey, um, bro,you're at by the way oh yeah, by
the way yeah, like you got it.
You got a perfect score on theass, fab.
So, um, we're not gonna let youplay the drums, bro.
(07:37):
We can get any any idiot cominghere and play the drums, um.
So they, they put me in.
Um, they put me in.
Uh, first there was gonna belike electronics text or
something like that, and thenthey you know that's testing.
I swam well, I don't get motionsick or anything like that so
great, we're gonna do avionicsbecause we might need some
flight navigators.
So, um, switched me in bootcamp to avionics.
I had the option to get out too.
(07:58):
I could have gotten out or kindof just taking that.
So I went in and I just got alittle little little bonus,
little little promotion, but didavionics.
And it's interesting learningavionics in the Marine Corps
because you basically getequivalents of an associate's
degree in electronics, but witha crusty gunnery sergeant
yelling in your face the wholetime.
And if you ever need to learnhow to assemble a box of parts
(08:20):
into a radar while wearing a gasmask, that is the place to go.
Eyvonne (08:22):
You know I will say, like we, I know a lot of young
people who are, you know, eithereither struggling with where to
go or what to do with theirlives, or they don't have a ton
of family support, or theydidn't have a lot of discipline
growing up.
And they, you know, they're,they're finishing high school
and they, they don't really knowwhat they want to do.
And you know, I know so manyfolks for whom service made
(08:46):
their you know careers, you know, gave them not only experience
but connected them to missionand a peer group that was
life-changing.
I think it's a great path.
Tim (08:59):
I think it's interesting and nuanced, because I joined
the Marine Corps during theClinton era.
Right, the Clinton era wasn'tdevoid of war and I certainly
saw more than I wanted to see,but we weren't still involved in
that much, you know.
(09:24):
Now we literally just had anentire generation of our youth
involved in a war 20 and still,um, I don't know that I can make
that recommendation anymore.
I'm gonna be real honest, and Iknow I have friends that um
either didn't come back or cameback greatly altered and not a
great way, um, and so my, my, my, my question is to get this
foothold?
At what cost?
You know, um, and the cost isgreat in the Marine Corps or in
(09:44):
any of the military, and I justdon't know.
There's got to be a better way.
There's got to be a better way.
Yes, sure, it can be if that'sthe thing you want to do with
your life, but it shouldn't beyour only option if you don't
have supports like that.
And so, yeah, I would encouragekids, especially now, now that
(10:05):
the internet is a thing andthere's an avenue, if you want
to get a career in something, um, there are ways for that to get
that kind of instructionwithout having to go Um and like
cause I'm not.
If someone is really passionateabout doing it, then I'm yes,
we could do that.
(10:26):
But but if, if I, what I, what Idon't want to see, is kids
going there because it was theironly option?
Um yeah because that's not agreat way to be um that's not
when you did go through.
William (10:32):
Did it have like a did?
Did it have like a positiveimpact on you transitioning to
tech, or did it have any impactthere?
Tim (10:38):
no, a total I.
I got hired directly out of themarine corps because I had that
electronics background and, tobe sure, right.
You know, for me that was theright move, but it was at great
cost.
You know, I do not this is notthe day for me to get into like
everything in it, but it was.
(10:58):
It's a lot of it, it was agreat experience, but a lot of
it sucked.
So I don't know, like I don'tknow, where I would be without
it.
I certainly wouldn't be where Iam.
So for that I'm grateful.
But, yeah, it's um, it's we, we, we have to do better.
We have to do better than thatfor, for, for people who want,
uh, for people who want a careerfor sure, yeah, for sure.
William (11:36):
And it's kind of one of those things, too, where there
I think I've seen someadvertisements here recently
where they're, you know,enrollment and everything is
like so down that they're tryingto get more creative with how
they they.
You have to have people, butyeah just know what you're doing
(11:57):
.
Tim (11:57):
You know, be educated and talk to people that have been
there, I think is another goodthing.
You know to inform yourdecisions, I guess I think
there's this interesting thingand this is something that I
think translates very well intotech that we see.
Tech that we see, um is thatcompanies with a lot of
resources a lot of resourcestend to make really dumb
decisions.
Right, and companies with not alot of resources tend to make
really dumb decisions, but fordifferent reasons, right, um,
(12:22):
companies with a lot ofresources resources make dumb
decisions because why, why not?
Was it going to hurt them?
Right?
And companies who don't have alot of resources tend to make
dumb decisions just because theydidn't have enough or the
capability or access toinformation to make good choices
.
Right?
But then companies that are morethoughtful and everything like
that, that haven't gotten toobig, they tend to you see, those
(12:43):
ones who are smart, they'remaking good choices because good
choices, because they have thatculture of perpetuating good
decisions and informed decisionsand stuff like that, and they
haven't gotten so big that theydon't really suffer consequences
for anything that happens.
Right, and that's kind of likewhat that ideal size, I think
for a company, when a companydoes something exciting, this
company is new, this company isgreat, they're doing smart,
they're doing smart, they'redoing, they're making an impact.
(13:04):
That's usually when they're atthat size.
Right, I feel like maybe ourmilitary and this may not have
been what you wanted to talkabout, but here we are I feel
like maybe our military maybesuffers from the first, of
having way too many resources,and then they're preying on the
(13:25):
people who suffer from thesecond one, which is not enough
resources, and the two combineddon't make good decisions
together sometimes.
And maybe it's like, maybe ifwe made them more agile, like
literally more, you know, likelet's, let's cut back, let's run
lean, let's figure out, youknow, if we don't have all these
resources what do we have to do?
William (13:46):
That sounds like it makes a lot of sense to me, but
yeah, I'm no, of course I'm noexpert there.
But yeah, I mean our governmentand the military.
it is you know, we're just hugeand it seems like you know the
government just gets bigger andbigger and more money gets
poured into you know some of thesame programs, without the
programs maybe changing.
So so much, but yeah, I don'tknow really what the right
(14:11):
answer is.
But one good segue for thisconversation and one thing that
I definitely wanted to touch onwas you know, I've followed you
on Twitter for a while and Ican't remember when I first
heard about I think you were ona podcast.
Honestly, I think it was.
It might've been one of theDuck Bill Group podcasts that
you recorded with Corey, and Ihope this is an okay observation
(14:34):
.
But you do a pretty good job ofbeing someone that doesn't let
your job or the company you workfor sort of define you, if that
makes sense.
No, it does and you have a tonof experience across many really
(14:56):
like a lot of big vendors, somestartups and even, I think you
have some enterprise companiesthrown in there as well.
A wealth of experience.
Can you give us a brief?
Because one of the things it'snot just the companies that
you've worked for, but you'veactually worked in a lot of
different, a diverse amount ofareas, whether it's database,
(15:20):
linux, admin, yeah, and that'swhere I grinded on and when I
got my start, it was all Linux,all the time managing Linux
servers, before we had fancytools to manage fleets of yeah.
So how did you sort of evolvefrom that?
I guess some would call thatlike traditional infrastructure,
(15:42):
but you've really and Iactually just sent Yvonne an
article today.
I don't know if you had achance to look at it, yvonne,
but it was about how, in tech,you have to basically to stay
relevant, you have to learn newtechnologies and you have to
keep chugging along.
So if you stay stagnant, you'reessentially going to, you're
going to have a hard timegetting a job and keeping a job,
(16:02):
which is a good thing and a badthing, I guess, because you
want to keep learning but also,at the same time, you want some
stability without being forcedto have to go into multiple
areas.
But can you kind of give us asort of a background of how you
pivoted from that traditionalinfrastructure the Linux admin,
tim Banks to really a communitypresence, a DevOps presence,
(16:25):
open source presence, you'reeverywhere.
So how did how did that sort ofhappen?
Tim (16:30):
I mean the, the, the.
The ridiculously practicalanswer is money, um, but.
But there's more nuance to that.
But no, I went, I, I chased themoney, because that's why I'm
here, um, and it's interestingbecause you talk about, like me,
not defining myself throughwhatever company I work for and
stuff like that is because I'mliterally only here for the
(16:53):
money and I can be bought, Right, well, actually, I take that
back.
I can be rented, I can beleased.
You can't buy me.
That's a better way to say it,right, but you know, I would
look at what was in demand,because that's what was paying
the most and what was alsowithin my capability of learning
the fastest.
Right.
(17:14):
And if you notice, a lot of thethings I put, you know, go from,
like you know, system admin,linux admin, to database admin.
That was because a Linux adminworking for LAMP web hosts.
You had to do Apache, you hadto do the Linux operations, you
had to do Cel.
You had to do a ton of MySQL,right, you had to learn PHP and
Perl and all these other, youknow.
You had to learn WordPress.
(17:35):
You had to learn Drupal andJoomla and everything else that
folks were using.
But the one thing, the twothings that were always present,
right and on those systems werealways Apache and MySQL.
And nobody paying a lot ofmoney for Apache admins anymore,
right, they're paying money forMySQL admins, right.
(17:58):
But so then you get into likedatabases and data structures
and how data works and in andout and optimization and things
like that.
And then you're like, oh well,what else runs data back and
forth?
Well, it's just no SQL stuff.
So you like, oh well, what elseruns data back and forth?
And let's just no SQL stuff.
So you know, jumping into someMongoDB as it comes up and then
working MongoDB, and then, likeyou know, working in shops, it's
like, oh well, devops, allthese, all these tools.
(18:19):
So you're a Linux admin and youdo a database.
So here we have a state store,we're going to do all these CICD
tools.
So here you go, this is yoursnow, because I wasn't a dev,
because, but I know Linuxsystems work.
Now, this is just a new Linuxsystem to maintain, right.
But then you learn, like, youknow these, you know these
softwares, like that, and itgoes into, you know it moves
(18:41):
that way.
But the thing that was that isinteresting about that, the
thing that that I will say thatI'm good at is that the
particular syntax or theparticular implementation of
whatever technology is, is veryrelevant to me.
It's the process, it is thethings that this is what we're
trying to do.
This is how you understand theproblem.
We're trying to do this and wewant to do this, and we're going
to do this, and this is howwe're going to do it.
(19:02):
This is how it's going to helpus.
This is why it's important,right?
And those are the things thatyou can draw circles around in
pretty much every piece oftechnology that you use, and the
things that you can relate oneto another make it easy to learn
, right?
I'm a pattern recognizer.
That's what I do, right.
That's why I play music, that'swhy I do jujitsu, that's why I
cook, that's why you know, I dotech, like all these things I do
(19:23):
.
It comes from patternrecognition and finding, like
the context behind it and theunderlying fundamentals, and
that's pretty much all ofcomputing, but also it's like
some of your personalities.
I don't, I'm not a developer.
I just don't have the.
I don't have the patience forit.
Gosh, I just don't.
I code just good enough to getdone what I'm trying to do.
But don't ever ask me to writesomething that's going to make
(19:45):
money.
That's just that's money.
That's just throwing good moneyafter bad.
I'm just not good at it.
But then I made this pivot frombeing an engineer to being more
consultative, being a TAM andthen a solutions architect, and
then Deb Rel and back now as asolutions architect, because the
thing that I like to do is Ilike to talk to people and
figure out how they're trying touse tech, like what are your
(20:06):
problems?
What are you trying to solvewith this tech?
Because in the end, that's allthat matters to me.
The tech is an implementationdetail, right.
What are you trying to do?
What do you need, right.
What are your actual goals?
Right, and that's the thingthat I think a lot of people,
especially in engineering wise,they don't see past, you know
committing to production, butthey're real-life, breathing
(20:33):
people on the other side of thatcomputer, on that phone,
whatever, who are using thistech to do something trivial or
something dramatically importantto a lot of people's lives, and
you have to understand why, oryou have to understand what
they're doing, otherwise youmiss a lot of stuff, and so and
so the why becomes important towhat you're doing and then when
(20:55):
you use the why, the end goal,why to inform that you can make
a lot smarter decisions aboutwhat you're doing, tech wise, to
meet those goals, cause youhave the context behind the
requirements and so the pursuitof that Right.
Eyvonne (21:22):
Is what's led me to where I am in my career that,
ultimately, that you see enoughpatterns over time and they all
look the same, even when it's anew implementation.
I'd love you to we talked alittle bit about storytelling
before we started recording, andI'd love for you to talk a
(21:42):
little bit about how thosecustomer conversations weave
together and help build storiesto understand and explain the
tech.
I've heard a lot ofconsternation, sometimes from
technologists about, well, it'sjust a story.
But in my mind, it's never justa story.
(22:04):
Stories aren't always false andstories help us make sense of
our world, so I'd love for youto talk a little bit more about
that piece of what you do.
Tim (22:13):
So, whenever I like to talk to a customer and you probably
saw this when I came in here I'mnever going to come in here,
we're never going to starttalking about tech Never,
because, again, I don't actuallydon't care, right?
I want to know who you are, Iwant to know about you, right,
and I want to know what you'retrying to do, right, because
about you and who you areinforms what you're trying to do
(22:35):
and how you're trying to goabout it, right?
So I'm going to sit down andwe're going to talk about.
Hey man, as you saw, like Iwant to see about this cool
thing you have back now, likethat tells me about who you are,
right?
Like I sat down and William waslike, oh, that's a really cool
sign, and then William told me astory about that little sign,
and now it gives me a little bitof information about William
(22:56):
and who they are, and then howthey go about doing things and
what things excite them, right.
And so, with that, now I canlike oh, that's a basis for me
to be able to relate for thisperson because, oh yeah, I love
that, or I don't know anythingabout that.
Please tell me this.
And that's my favorite thing.
I know I'm totally ignorantabout this thing, please tell me
about it.
And to watch people get excitedabout those things, I love it.
(23:18):
But when people realize you areactually there to listen to
them, they will talk.
And they're going to talk toyou like they're talking, not
like they're presenting or notlike they're representing, right
.
And then you're going to getwhat I like to call the real tea
.
You know, I'm not going to get.
I don't want your avatar, Idon't want the representative.
(23:40):
Look, just just talk to me.
What is what is actually tryingto go on?
Like, how can I help you?
You are here because somebodyis holding your feet to the fire
sometimes.
Right, I need to know what youneed, right, and if we can do it
, great.
But I need to know that right,because you're going to spit in
me requirements that maybe ormaybe not requirements, but even
the priorities are going to bedifferent once I know it is what
you're trying to do.
Right.
(24:00):
Are you trying to make animpact?
Are you trying to clean upsomebody's mess mess?
Are you trying to do dramaticimpact?
Is the business in trouble oris the business great and we're
trying to find a way in thefuture?
Like what is that?
What is the goal?
What do you when, when this isall said and done and you're
home and you're happy about it,what happened?
Yeah, I know that.
William (24:20):
like all the best sales people that I've ever talked to
or like heard a pitch from oreven worked with, like they've
all.
They all have maybe differentunique skills, but I feel like
something that they all didreally well was like storytell,
and this is a craft that's asold as this human civilization,
you know.
Campfire style storytellingespecially, and our lovely
(24:41):
career of information technology, you know, becomes really
important because, you know,again we were talking before we,
we hit record and you, you'renot going to remember that
feature pitch, but you willremember a story.
You just they, they somehowjust stick, uh, they stick with
you really and that's somethingthat I've recently actually like
(25:03):
.
Over the past year or so I'vehad many people reach out and
then you know just askingbasically, how do I get better
at storytelling, how do you evenbegin to go down?
That you know, because asengineers, if all you do is like
work in code and you have yourcode base and that is where
you're grinding like day in andday out, you're maybe not even
(25:24):
talking to to humans during theday except for like a stand-up,
maybe not even talking to humansduring the day except for like
a stand up.
And maybe you know, I think,through the pandemic and
everything, there was such along pause on in-person events,
like even local events, and Ilove local events and it was
hard on me, but just not havinghuman interaction and not having
(25:44):
you know it kind of sets youback a little bit.
But do you have any tips on howfolks can sort of pivot from
that product pitching mentalityfirst to more of a
conversational story?
Tim (25:58):
There's a couple of ways, and let me I'm going to do this
by telling you a story.
So KubeCon 2023 was an EU wasin.
Amsterdam.
Right, amsterdam is a fairlydiverse city but a lot of black
people there, but pretty diverse.
I needed a haircut right andusually when I go to conferences
(26:20):
I go down to get a haircutthere, just for the experience.
My partner at the time wasgreat at finding me a black
barber in this place in theJordan area of Amsterdam, an old
mosque right.
It was an old mosque that hadbeen repurposed into a barber
shop that had like a little barin it, had a little African and
(26:40):
Caribbean food truck in it andthere was a place where the
African diaspora aroundAmsterdam gathered.
So there was folks from NewYork City, from LA, from Oakland
, from the Caribbean, from NewYork City, from LA, from Oakland
, from the Caribbean, from allover Africa et cetera, from all
over Europe was all in thisplace Cacophony of accents and
great, great conversations,great, you know, food and
everything like that.
(27:01):
So I'm getting my hair cut inthis beautiful prayer alcove
I'll have to find a picture ofit.
It's stunning, stunning mosaictile in this thing and I'm
getting my haircut in thislittle mirror set up with my
barber.
His name was Will.
I think his name was also Willand he was from Trinidad, and
(27:24):
then I was supposed to have ameeting with Kelsey Hightower
and I was like I'm selling thisplace.
I'll come up to you, rick.
So Kelsey Hightower walks in,he sits down at this bench and
he and I start talking.
I'm getting a haircut, I've gotlike a hot towel over my face,
my mouth is exposed and I'mhaving this conversation with
him.
Um and this, this, and I clearby by at least a decade I'm the
oldest person in this place.
Kelsey's not far behind, right,um and uh.
(27:47):
And well, what do you guys do?
And so we work in tech.
Oh, what's it like?
And so Kelsey proceeds to tellour barber and the listening
people about how to relate whatwe do right, as developer
advocates in technology to thework that they do as people who
work on barber and stuff likethat.
And it's like you know, whenyou cut someone's hair, you
(28:08):
don't just come and define, youdon't just come and decide what
you're going to do and blah,blah, blah.
You talk to them, you get anidea of what they want, how it
looks, what kind of you know,you consider all these factors
and use your experience and thenyou make something right.
You're making something rightFor this person and they walk
away from this and they want tofeel good about what they did
right.
It's like that's all we do.
This is literally all we do.
(28:29):
Right, we make something thatpeople say they want.
We're going to talk to them tofigure out what it is, and our
job as dev rels are the folkswho do the talking and the
listening and then convey thething that folks want to the
people who are in charge ofactually producing it.
Right, and to have thisconversation in a mosque
(28:56):
essentially where I'm getting myhair cut, you know in the
middle of Amsterdam, with one ofthe greatest storytellers I've
ever seen Right, was a true.
It was.
It was like a life changingmoment for me to really give an
understanding of why the work wedo is impactful Right To the
people that do it.
William (29:05):
And so the notion of being a fly on the wall there
that sounds like an amazingexperience.
Tim (29:10):
Um and and with the.
The thing that I take away fromthat, and how this relates to
storytelling, is that the firstthing you have to be able to do
to tell a story is you have tobe able to relate to the
listener, right?
You have to speak in a way thatthey're going to be able to
relate to, especially if theydon't know what you're talking
about.
So when you hear me talk abouttech, you'll hear me talk about
(29:32):
tech in the context of cookingor jujitsu or building a house
or other things that I've done,that people can, even if they
haven't done themselves, atleast relate to something that
is more accessible to them thanmaybe container orchestration,
you know.
So find the way to relate topeople, the people find a way.
(29:55):
You want to tell your story forthe person who knows absolutely
nothing about what you'retalking, right?
Yeah, because if you can conveythe information to them, then
you can convey it to everyone.
Eyvonne (30:07):
When one of the things that stands out to me about all
that you're saying is thatyou're not talking about
speaking to be heard.
You're talking about relatingwith the person that's hearing
and starting with the listener,not starting with yourself, and
I think that's a key trait ofthose who actually communicate
(30:31):
well and want to get theirmessage across.
They don't start withthemselves.
They always have an idea oftheir values, of their beliefs,
of what they want to communicate, but they're connecting with a
person and they put that otherperson or group of people first
in order to figure out how torelate.
And I think that's that's asuper important reality in what
(30:56):
you're saying to call out.
Tim (30:59):
I think what's also important too.
There's a lot of people who areused to being listened to,
right?
I don't.
I don't have to hear them fromthem, to be honest, really.
And be very honest, the peoplewho are used to being listened
to all the time.
I don't have to hear from thembecause I already know what they
want.
They've already told us, right.
There's a lot of people therewho are not used to being
listened to or, more to thepoint, who are not used to being
(31:20):
talked to.
Right, and their stories arevery important, right, because
they're going to have differentperspectives from the people
you're used to hearing from allthe time and there's no
innovation in doing the samething over and over again, right
?
So I want to hear from theperson who hasn't spoken.
I want to hear from the personwho's in the meetings but hasn't
(31:41):
gotten the talk right.
Or, more to the point,especially if it's a place where
they don't really feel good atall.
It's like, hey, let me catchyou after this, real quick, I've
got a question for you.
And then, hey, what do youthink about this thing?
Like you can just like, justfor real, just blah, blah, blah,
blah.
I feel like your insights mightbe different.
(32:01):
Talk to me about it, you know,and just put them at ease and
let them bite into a morsel thatthey'd never been offered
before.
William (32:11):
Yeah, that's great, um, and yeah, that's just such a
cool and cool story, cool place,you know, having a Kelsey
Hightower there and I rememberwhen he, when he was gonna, he
announced his retirement, I wasjust like, oh, I hope he doesn't
stop tweeting.
I hope he just doesn'tdisappear, because his tweets
are just so good.
Every tweet that he tweets outis like they're all good.
(32:35):
He's just such a good person.
As far as conveying information, guess not to.
Let's see how are we doing ontime.
We gotta, we still got a littlebit of time.
But one thing I wanted to, youknow, sorry to pivot so quickly,
but one thing that I I lovethat you do.
Yeah, I just want to fit so muchin um, but brazilian jiu-jitsu,
(32:59):
um, you know, there, there'smany things in life that serve
like multi-faceted purposessports, for instance, like,
especially when you're young.
You know they can serve as alike a springboard for, like,
developing social skills orteaching.
You know get teaching,discipline, you know focus,
patience, even reducing.
(33:21):
You know taking that stresslevel down.
You know building your, yourconfidence, like.
The list goes on.
A lot of these things can, youknow, actually serve as a great
foundation and support for your,your mental health.
Really, um, and so you're,you're a very skilled and
competitive um in brazilianjiu-jitsu.
I think you teach it as well,don't you?
(33:41):
Yes, that's awesome yeah, I'm,I'm.
Tim (33:46):
I fingers crossed.
I should get my black belt thisyear.
William (33:50):
Nice.
That's awesome and I mean kudosto you, for you know just a lot
of uh, a lot of folks that Iknow sort of lose, you know,
maybe they did something as akid or maybe they didn't pick it
up until they were an adult,but then they do it for a little
while and they just stop, youknow, cause life gets busy and I
(34:13):
think it's important to havesomething outside of work or
something that's yours that youcan kind of focus on, that you
can stick with.
It's just something that youlove.
But when did you start learningBrazilian Jiu Jitsu and how is
it?
You know, I imagine it's been anet positive in your life
overall, personally andprofessionally.
How did that evolve?
Tim (34:32):
Yeah, I've been training in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for seven
years, as of August.
So I've been training BrazilianJiu-Jitsu for seven years, as
of August, which is, you know,I've been a brown belt for about
a year and a half now.
So it grows in the ranks fairlyquickly.
But I trained a lot.
And the thing that I like aboutBrazilian Jiu-Jitsu, which I
(34:56):
think makes it stand out from alot of other things, is the
number of boxes it checks for alot of people Like, first and
foremost, yes, it is a physicalactivity, you are going to get
out there, you're going to sweat, you're going to need some
stuff, you're going to getflexibility, you're going to get
strength, you're going to getendurance.
Yes, those are the things thathappen, right, it's also a
thinking person's game.
(35:16):
It is chess.
It is very high-level,high-stakes chess with dire
physical consequences, I think,as Joe Brogan said at some time
or another.
But the other thing it is it istied very deeply to like human
psychology, in the way that thething that you do more than
anything else in jujitsu is youtouch other people, you have
(35:38):
your hands on somebody, you'remaking contact with another
person platonically, sometimesviolently, but whatever for
hours a day, right.
So the thing about higher orderprimates, right.
The thing that you see incommon with all of them is that
they bond by touch, like theirsocial circles.
They touch, they groom, they dowhatever like that.
That is how they bond is viatouch, right?
(35:59):
They communicate vocally,verbally, like that, but when
you see them all together,they're all hugged on each other
, touching.
That's the thing they do.
That's the things human used todo in our, in our, in you know,
a long time ago.
Some of the cultures embrace it, ours doesn't.
Really, we don't touch nobody,right.
We shake their hands, likemaybe we hug family members or
something like that, but for byand large, we don't touch
anybody, right?
Not great for your mentalhealth.
Until you realize, once youstart doing something where you
(36:21):
touch somebody on the trust, youbuild confidence, you build a
rapport with someone right thatyou can't have otherwise.
Right?
There are people I will go.
There are people that will pay$250 to sign up to go up onto a
mat to have someone choke themwith an inch of their lives and
(36:42):
then when they tap them, they'regoing to stop.
That sounds ludicrous.
This person was about to killyou, but they're not going to
kill you why?
Because you tapped on theirshoulder Like that.
Just it sounds silly, like onits face, but that's exactly
what it is.
It's a respect and it's a trustthat you don't get like that
(37:02):
from in any other environment.
And when you can bond like thatwith someone or someone in the
same practice, right, becauseyou both wear the gi, you both
have the belt someone or someonein the same practice, right,
because you, you both wear thegi, you both have the belt,
you've been to the same thinglike that, it's a sense of
community that that is, uh, thatis really hard to find.
It's hard to find a parallelfor it anywhere else in the
world.
William (37:20):
You know what I'm saying again, yeah, and I think
sports, especially like you canI mean everybody needs something
outside of work.
I mean if you, especially likeyou can I mean everybody needs
something outside of work.
I mean if you, especially ifyou work in tech, you're
constantly sitting, I sit allthe time and that has that has
consequences.
So, yeah, I mean you could goride a bike or you could go do
(37:40):
other things.
But kind of like what you'resaying, you know when you have
something, you know whatever itis, where you can, you know
build that relationship withother people, you're not alone.
You know whether it's a teamsport.
Well, even I guess jujitsuwouldn't be considered a team
sport.
Well, I guess it kind of is ateam sport Like not when you're
one-on-one.
Tim (37:58):
But, yeah, you compete as an individual, you train as a
team.
The thing about jujitsu rightthat I really like more than
anything else is you can't havean ego.
When you do jujitsu right,you're going to do nothing but
lose for at least your firstseveral months of doing it.
You're going to get beat andget thrown.
(38:20):
You're going to get choked.
Every everything imaginable isgoing to happen to you and
you're not even going to knowwhat's going on.
Right, you cannot go intojujitsu with an ego, right?
Um, some people will developone later on as they get good,
but again, it gets checked soquickly, right, I start my day
right In an earnest struggle formy life with a 300 pound dude
sweating into my mouth, tryingto choke me to death while I own
(38:41):
clothing like everything elseafter.
That really gets perspective.
William (38:47):
Yeah, that's one way to put it.
Yeah, and then sitting at yourdesk or having, uh, you know, an
email that needs to go out late, doesn't seem exactly not at
all.
Tim (38:55):
Okay, yeah, it's not too yeah, exactly you know, and it's
that level of um, I don't knowthat I would call it zen, but I
would certainly call it aperspective on what's important
and what isn't important.
Um it, and sometimes it getsyou in trouble, because I look
at people's like serioussituations and everyone's trauma
is relative, for sure.
But I'm like, oh my gosh, you,I don't know it will be, it will
(39:18):
be just fine, my guy, I promise, and we'll send out your little
email exactly.
William (39:26):
the work's always going to be there the next day, I
promise.
Tim (39:28):
That's it.
That's it, it's going to bethere Again.
William (39:32):
Pivoting into one more area that I wanted to touch on,
you have a pretty big voice inthe community and you've had
some good opinions over theyears In the form of tweets from
the ones that I'm referencingabout the current state of open
source and just community, ofcommunity in general.
And I know Yvonne's actuallybeen a big staple in the network
engineering community over theyears.
(39:53):
Back when podcasting wasbecoming cool and popular, she
had started.
Did you co-host a networkcollective, Yvonne?
Eyvonne (40:01):
or did you start?
It I was a co-host.
Tim (40:04):
Yeah Well, co-founder with my partners Get it right.
William (40:13):
No, yeah, well, co-founder with my partners,
yeah, get it right now.
So, yeah, I mean, both of youhonestly have done much more for
and with the community thanI've had an opportunity to do at
this point.
So I I guess my question to you, tim, is you know what is?
How do you see the?
Yeah, I feel like the communityactually coming out of covid
has been really bubbling up in areally awesome way.
The CNCF is doing some prettyawesome and amazing things.
(40:36):
I've had a few folks on to talkabout hotel or open telemetry
and just really awesome thingsgoing on there, but also open
source at the same time, sinceit's kind of having an identity
crisis in some regard with somelicensing changes, as of late,
(40:58):
it seems like one comes alongevery once in a while and just
lights it back on fire again.
But, yeah, do you have anythoughts there?
Tim (41:05):
I think it's interesting that you bring up the CNCF in
this regard, because I feel likethe CNCF started off with a
sense of community and how it'sjust a corporate overlord.
Right it is a vehicle formaking money with very highly
highly paid board members.
Right, that use you know theguise of community and not
(41:25):
saying that it's all.
It's all smoke and mirrors, butcertainly some smoke and some
mirrors right To to funnel moneyinto, into companies doing work
.
To to grow the Kuberneteslandscape.
Right.
William (41:38):
So the Kubernetes supercar, I guess the Kubernetes
Corvette.
Tim (41:42):
Kinda kinda and and and I and I draw that distinction
between something like the CNCF.
And then you look at the ApacheSoftware Foundation, which has
software that we all rely on.
Even everything in theKubernetes project relies on
something in the Apache SoftwareFoundation.
Right, everything there is free.
There's not a company that'slike, okay, we're going to get
(42:04):
this, but we're going to get it.
It's like who hasn't used HDBD?
Who hasn't used Bind?
You know what I'm saying?
Like, these things are thereand it's a different mindset,
right.
But is that community?
Nah, no, it's part of thecommunity, like the open source.
It is open source software, butthe community is different than
the both of those, right, Ilook at something in the
(42:32):
community.
The first place I'm looking isDevOps days.
The first place I'm looking isyour local user group meetups.
These are places wherecorporations can sponsor and
come in, but it is not thrown bya corporation, it is for the
user.
I want user forward conferencesthat are there so that the
users and the communities likethat can get together and talk
with each other, not be talkedat, not be presented, to not be
(42:54):
pitched, right.
And that's what OpenSourcereally is.
That it's heart and soul.
It's not a group of people tobe sold to, right, it's a group
of people who are building stufffor the people who, for the
people, for the builder and thenfor the community at large,
first and foremost.
Can somebody make money off it?
Sure, right, great, go do that.
(43:15):
But it's not.
It is not.
It's not.
It's not a seller's, it's notsellers and buyers.
And that's what I feel like alot of it has moved towards, and
that's why you're seeing a lotof these issues around the, you
know, like the licensing andstuff like well, why is it there
?
Oh, it's, you know, the companyhas to make money and we don't
(43:35):
want other people to make moneyand we got to differentiate.
I'm like, look, here's thething, dog.
The company's success is notthe community's problem.
That is your problem, right,and?
And if your notion of successfor the company is going to be
the expense of the community,the community is not going to.
I take that very much, right.
Um, you know, and it's funny,you know, it was just a few days
(43:59):
ago Elastic switched theirlicense back to say now that
they're going to use a set oflicense that um is, um is going
to be, you know, makes it trulyopen source because of their
dispute about amazon, amazonforked open search and like why?
Why do we go through all this?
What was the end?
You know what I'm saying?
(44:20):
Like for what?
And and that's the thing Ithink that that's really weird
is that these companies aredoing battles with other
companies and they're catchingthe community in the middle of
it.
For what?
And that's the part that reallysucks the most.
William (44:35):
I saw that happen really hard with the HashiCorp
license changes in the community.
I guess it's mainly because Iwas closer to that community
than some of the othercommunities and it just kind of
like so many folks wereconflicted because there were so
many good people on than someof the other communities and it
just kind of like so many folkswere conflicted because there
was so many good people on bothsides that were impacted.
Tim (44:56):
It just it was terrible to watch unfold it feels like
betrayal right, and not just forthe people who are of the
community, but the people at thecompany whose job it was to
relate to and talk to and getthe feedback from the community,
because they were not the one,they were not privy to these
decisions, their feedback hadpartner.
This is all done in boardrooms,right.
(45:18):
And those are the people and wetalked about good.
We've got to bring it back tocontext and storytelling.
Those are the people thatshould be in the community right
before you make these decisions, if you cared about them, right
.
But if you're going to makethat decision and you're not
members of the community andyou're not getting out there,
then don't, don't.
Don't play in my face tellingme it's like oh, we're so,
probably, no, you're not.
(45:39):
No, you're not.
You never were Not you.
You know you hire your dev rels.
They're part of the communityand they're the ones that are
catching all the brunt for thisyeah, do you?
William (45:48):
think the bigger that some of these organizations, so
I guess they I mean they areorganizations at the end of the
day, whether they're non-profitsor not.
I guess, like, the more thebigger something gets and the
more people that are involved inthe bigger board that you have,
just the bigger, the bigger,the bigger, the more voices and
the more okay we have morevoices.
We have to appease this sideand that side.
(46:09):
Do you think that's when itsort of gets out of control?
Because I know that I'm goingto be speaking at this upcoming
conference.
That is just the right sizeconference and it's really
community grounded.
I don't think they have morethan like 300 people that they
will allow to attend the wholething.
There's like some, you knowthere's a number and they don't
(46:33):
want to get, they don't want togo past a certain point because
they don't want to lose thespirit of it being about the
community and kind of like whatyou said earlier.
You know vendors can come andsponsor, but the first event
that they did, they had all thevendors in one hall so you could
go in and talk to them if youwanted to, but it was really
separate from all the otherstuff that was going on, which
was really, really impactful andit really you really had the
(46:54):
best of the community theretalking really about valuable
things.
I think it's yeah, there's thatgrowth mindset, though they
think they have to growsometimes and I think that's
when it gets in trouble to growsometimes, and I think that's
when it gets in trouble.
Tim (47:09):
There is a and not to, not to, not to lean too heavily into
my politics, but but I've saidin the past that that capitalism
sickens everything it touches.
Right, and I say that in thiscontext, because you can have a
bright and thriving communityand then you're going to have a
board member from a corporationwho's going to like, hey, we're
(47:30):
going to get on the board.
Or some VCs, hey, we're goingto get on the board, right, and
they turn it into a businessbecause that's the only thing
they know how to do, right.
And as soon as a growing,thriving community starts to
take that turn, it's all over bythe crying.
At that point, right, and and Iwould love to see more
(47:51):
communities outright rejectcorporate, you know, influence
on their boards, on whateverlike that, or vc influence like
no, this should be the community, like I want the community
members to, to, to be, uh,stewards of this and to guide
this ship.
William (48:08):
Um, yeah, but kind of goes back to whoever's writing
the paycheck is kind of who'sgoing to be making the decisions
, if you will.
Eyvonne (48:16):
Well, that's a that's a question of scale too.
I was just going to say causeas your community scales, like
it doesn't scale linearly.
Linearly as the community getsbigger if you want to do meetups
, the more expensive it is toget everybody together, the more
coordination and planning ittakes, the more organization,
(48:37):
the more effort with outsizeddonations or investments from
corporations that expectsomething you know return on
their investment.
Tim (48:56):
And that's the difficult line to walk right, and I think
that last part you said is thereturn on investment.
Right, because they look atcommunity sponsorship as a sales
opportunity, right, and not aninvestment in the community.
And those things are too.
They can get the same moneyfrom the same booth but, like I
(49:18):
said, the context for whythey're doing it matters greatly
, right?
Companies that and there aresome companies there that just
support the community because wecan, we should be there, like,
yeah, here, you know, go, go, dothis thing.
Great, versus ones that want togo there to put a sales booth
and to get opportunities andlike, okay, I get this and we do
this.
And then like, if they don'thave sales opportunities and
(49:39):
they don't get a good ROI,they're not going to sponsor it
anymore.
Right, and?
And and you see that coming outto play whenever the money
starts to dry up, like, orwhenever times get tough, they,
they kill community sponsorships.
Right, because they're notsales opportunities, because
(50:01):
it's not an investment.
Um, and, and that's that's thetell, right, and I, so I think,
when communities, yes, can youscale, sure, should you scale?
Maybe One thing I learned aboutrestaurants is, like, it's okay
to tell people we're full or wecan't seat you today, right,
because if you try to do toomuch you're going to lose it all
.
Right, you know you relate thestory over and over and over
(50:23):
again.
Right, you cannot scale beyondyour capacity to handle things.
Especially handle things if youknow how you go about doing it
matters.
And if you're trying to grow,have organic growth, the
community, and keep thecommunity at the forefront and
keep corporate out and not makemoney.
Maybe you can't scale worldwide, but you have a bunch of little
(50:43):
small communities, blah, blah,blah.
You know.
Hey, you got this littlecommunity over here.
Give it, give it, give it there.
Great, that's fine.
You know.
Blah, you know.
Hey, you got this littlecommunity over here.
Give it, give it, give it overthere.
It's great, that's fine.
You know, this is in the, theway the internet works today.
If y'all are meeting togetherand they're meeting together,
hey, maybe you just have avirtual thing.
Maybe you go on a little roadtrip, maybe people pop in here.
Or, hey, members of thiscommunity are all going to this
one big, big conference.
(51:04):
Right, this big, let's have alittle user group meetup for
these people over here, right,and it's like that.
So find your opportunities,right, um, but like I said, the
longer, the more you get intohaving the same players right
for the money that they're.
William (51:19):
They are not there to help the community, they're
there to help themselves yeah,so I've got one last question
and then I'll open up the floorfor avon, after um, after this,
but so it's okay.
We're in 2024 and 2024 is goingway too fast.
So, as you see, like thecommunity as it is today, like
(51:44):
in sort of the circles that wefrequent, and the state of open
source and where open source istoday, do you see it as like a
glass half full, glass halfempty, like do you see it
trending positive or do you seeit degrading and not sticking to
its roots?
What are you?
What is your shake for thefuture?
Tim (52:03):
I'm going to say, right now , we're at an inflection point,
right, the battle for opensource is also the battle for
open standards for AI and openaccess to data and seeing how,
how these decisions are made,how why they're made and things
like that, and the companiesdon't want to do that.
The corporations are makingthem, they're not inclined to
(52:24):
want to give us access to thatinformation and it's like okay,
so how do we do this safely?
And how do we do this safelyand how do we do this openly?
How do we do this transparentlyfor and with the community?
And you know, as goes that fategoes, probably a lot of other
things, right, we're in thispoint where you're having so
(52:45):
much AI-generated content that'ssupposed to feed the community.
That is just junk, right, whichyou and Yvonne and I were long
enough in the tooth to know thatit's junk.
But if I'm just starting out, Idon't know any better.
I don't know who's feeding meLLM generated crap, you know,
(53:07):
and is that?
And so, like, we have to thinkabout not the community in 2025.
When you think about acommunity in 2035, like, what is
it?
What is the thing that we'regoing to have for them?
And that I don't have an answerfor that, sad as I am to say,
and it scared the hell out of meright now, because I don't know
who's going to win on this andI buy it and I and I and I and I
(53:28):
pitch it as winning becausesome people are definitely
trying to win and they're tryingto make other people lose,
right, and it's going to bewho's going to conglomerate the
money the most in these largeorganizations.
Who make money now off of AI,who make money off of this
software, make money out of thatsoftware.
Things are getting, you know,no-transcript movie generation
(54:23):
or audio generation, and thenwe're talking about who's going
to be in control of what we seeand what we read, and I just
don't know that.
I want a corporate boardroom tobe in charge of that.
So those are decisions that weas practitioners and we as the
workers who generate thistechnology we have to make.
(54:43):
We have to make the decisionsright, because the people in the
boardrooms, they actually can'tdo any of this.
They don't know how to do this.
If they could, they would bedoing it.
They probably wouldn't want us.
William (54:52):
But they can't do it at scale, so the decision comes
down to us you know, we've seenthe floundering of boardroom
boardroom bingo, if you willyeah over the past year or two
too, it's been a little bitcontentious as well, yeah, but
in the.
Tim (55:04):
In the end, we're the ones making the tech.
We're the ones deploying the.
We're the ones making the tech.
We're the ones deploying thetech.
We're the ones who are gettingeverything networked together.
We're the ones who make thedocumentation.
It is up for us to decide howwe work with the context of what
it is we're trying to do, andthat's the context we need to
find.
William (55:24):
Love it, love it.
Eyvonne (55:26):
You got anything else, yvonne the philosopher of cloud
(55:51):
a group of like-minded people,maybe without as much corporate
influence, that really want torub shoulders with other
practitioners.
What guidance do you have forfolks that maybe have a desire
to engage in community buthaven't done so yet?
What would you recommend?
Tim (56:02):
The first thing I would do is figure out where your comfort
level is with engaging withother people and then just like,
maybe push that like 5% Right,go to a meetup.
Maybe you don't talk to anybody, maybe you just go, go and
listen, be seen, you know, hearsome conversations, just be a
(56:23):
fly on the wall, get a feel forthe vibe, for the pulse of that
community and figure out ifthese are people you want to be
around.
You know whether it's thisspecific technology that you're
familiar with, a technology youwant to be familiar with.
Meet up for folks in a job youhave.
Meet up for folks in a job youwant.
Just go and check it out.
(56:43):
Like I said, you don't have tostay the whole time.
You can just eat the free pizzaand leave.
You know, like, whatever it isyou want to do, figure out what
your comfort levels.
If you're comfortable andyou're a social butterfly and
you just really need to get inthe foot, go to one.
You know, um, if you work withsomeone who is active in the
community, like, hey, what is it?
Where's the?
What's the one you'd recommend?
What's the one that?
(57:04):
A beginner-friendly meetup,because there's some meetups
that are just not for beginnersright, it's for you know.
It's like you know, going to anold head rap thing Like you
can't just be new to rap and goto an old head rap like meetup
and they're going to eat yourlie, dog.
But just figure out the rightplace, figure out what your
comfort level is and then dowhat feels right.
(57:25):
You know, because not everycommunity is great.
I like to think that most ofthem are, but they're not all
great.
If it's something doesn't feelright, don't do it.
Just do something else figure itout.
But but the desire and thewillingness to push just a
little bit, not a lot, just bumpup against what you're
typically comfortable with whenit comes to interacting with
other people.
Just push it a little bit, seehow it feels and then and then
(57:49):
go from there.
William (57:52):
I love that.
That's great.
And then your, your comfortlevel slowly is going to shift a
little bit If you find yourcommunity that you're
comfortable with and you fit inthe doors are going to open,
career wise and many other waysas well.
That's it Awesome.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
We went a little longer than wenormally go, but that was okay.
This is an awesome conversation.
(58:13):
Where can the folks out in theinterwebs find you?
Tim (58:18):
So I'm on Twitter at El Chefe.
I'm also on LinkedIn, I don'tknow.
I'm with Tim JB, I think iswhat I'm on LinkedIn.
If you're a LinkedIn person, Ithink is what I'm going to link
there If you.
If you're a LinkedIn person, um, you can.
I've got a blog at Tim dashbanksghostio, um, which I don't
update as often as I should.
(58:39):
I have, uh, as someone with,with profound ADHD, I've got
probably about 70 blogs started,um and like for publish right,
um, but um, but yeah, that'swhere you can find me, uh, me,
uh, you know.
Or if you see me out and about,like, um, you know, come
interact with me.
I'm, I'm, you know, I'm happyto talk to people.
I I have very clear signals.
If I'm peopled out, um, andyou'll probably, you know, just
(59:00):
hoodie up, headphones on,sunglasses, on whatever, like
that.
That's not the best time.
Any other time, come talk to me, right, um, and also, if you,
if you want to, if you want tolearn some jiu-jitsu, come down
to austin.
I teach private lessons.
Well, we can get in on itsomething now.
Well, you said you wrestle um,I did.
William (59:17):
It's been a long time, you don't.
Really it's like riding a bikein some sense, but yeah yeah, I
think I figured we can have.
Tim (59:23):
We can have a special edition, maybe like a patreon
members only, like one where youcome down and you and I will go
at it.
We'll have yvonne reffin, youknow.
William (59:30):
That'd be great sounds like too much fun, I probably I
get squashed.
Tim (59:35):
You destroy me cheesecake.
There we go.
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