#23 Steve McCready - The Myths Keeping you STUCK in Mid-Life! A Psychotherapist Sets the Record Straight - The Cluttered Path

Episode Transcript
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Todd (00:00):
This is the Cluttered Path , a compass for midlife.
Have you ever wondered whatreally happens behind closed
doors with a therapist?
For years I was skeptical Imean, I was even judgmental
about mental health and thepeople who sought help from a

(00:21):
therapist.
What if everything we've heardabout therapy is just misguided?
Today we're clearing upmisconceptions.
With licensed psychotherapistSteve McCready.
We're going to uncover whythese chronic adapters,
overthinkers and people pleasersactually have way more options
than just simply dealing with it.
We're going to learn why realchange isn't about some magic

(00:43):
formula.
It's really about finding yourstory instead of trying to fit
someone else's mold.
So whether you've doubtedtherapy, you felt misunderstood
or you just wanted to understandwhat makes us tick, today's
conversation might be the nudgeyou need to finally get unstuck.
So, steve, welcome to the show.

Steve (01:00):
Thanks for having me, todd, good to be here.

Todd (01:03):
Great to have you, so it really is an honor to meet with
you.
Could you kick us off bytelling us a bit about yourself
and how you became apsychotherapist?

Steve (01:11):
Sure, so my name is Steve McCready.
I am currently in Sacramento,california.
I grew up primarily in SantaCruz, though I was a little bit
I was like 10 when we movedthere.
But that's kind of what Iconsider home because it's the
place that probably most shapedme.
But I've been here inSacramento since 1992.
So yeah, psychotherapist, Ialso do some coaching, my

(01:34):
professional background involved.
I used to work in IT A very,very long time ago.
I worked in radio for a bit oftime.
Music has been a part of my lifefor as long as I can remember
listening to it, playing it moreenthusiastically than good, and
all of that, but so yeah.
So from the standpoint oftherapy, I came to therapy as a

(01:56):
career when I hit in what Isometimes refer to as an early
midlife crisis, had an episodeof major depression, went to
therapy myself.
Early midlife crisis, had anepisode of major depression,
went to therapy myself.
And through the process both ofthat but also of some career
counseling because it was somesevere career dissatisfaction
that's part of what triggeredthe depression, not the only
thing, but part of it Throughthat exploration came to the

(02:17):
awareness that actuallytherapist is kind of a job that
has a lot of things about itthat would fit well for me.
It's kind of a quiet, low-keyjob, right.
It's you one-on-one with people, you have this nice, quiet,
peaceful space and all that.
I'm like that seems kind ofcool, and as I looked more into
it it became clear it was thekind of thing that really could
fit me pretty well.
And so, after I learned aboutthe graduate programs in the

(02:41):
area, decided to go for it andgot myself through that program,
did all my training, gotlicensed, and so I've had my own
private practice since 2006.
And for me, my focus now isreally largely on a pretty
specific group of folks, andthese are people who often have

(03:04):
difficulty navigating throughthe world because they are very
attuned to their environment,very concerned about the
different things around them,and that sometimes happens to a
degree or an extent that itreally interferes with their own
ability to hold on tothemselves and to follow their
path, their path.

(03:27):
My job is to help them findbalance effectively to be able
to empower themselves, but to doso in a way that is still
mindful of those otherrelationships and other people
in the world, and to really gofrom lose-win to win-win in the
relational space, but also to beable to find ways to live lives
that are more true andauthentic to themselves, because
I think that that's really theonly way they're going to be

(03:49):
able to do whatever it is thatthey're meant to do here in the
world.
Excellent.

Todd (03:54):
Before we get into the questions, I just want to start
by sharing how I developed anegative perspective on pretty
much the entire mental healthprofession on pretty much the
entire mental health profession.
And it started well, probablywhen I was younger.
But one thing that stands outis when I was in boot camp, it
was a pretty stressful time.
I was at Marine Corps RecruitDepot, parris Island, and just
out of high school we're allkids except for a few guys.

(04:16):
It's pretty stressful for usand inevitably, with all the
stress they were putting on us,somebody's going to have a
mental breakdown.
And one guy it happened to himjust had a mental breakdown and
the drill instructors justturned the entire platoon
against him and they made a showof making.
It was like a ceremoniouspacking of his stuff.
While they're sitting thereyelling at him, he's throwing

(04:37):
all of his stuff in his sea bag.
We're getting rid of him, we'redumping him.
And they turned the wholeplatoon against the recruit and
then one of the drillinstructors got in his face and
was like you know what?
You're going to see?
The wizard, do you understand?
And that's what they referredto the psychiatrist or
psychologist and they justcalled him the wizard because it

(04:59):
was just this mysterious,magical thing.
And then what they did was theymade the entire platoon sing
that song from the Wizard of Oz.
We're Off to See the Wizard.
It was surreal, and it was justthe guy's already suffering
mentally and then they addedthat to the mix.
He was just crying.
I mean, there was, it was asignificant mental breakdown,

(05:19):
and so that experience andothers fostered in me a negative
view of the pretty much theentire mental health profession.
So, just starting with thequestions here, for people like
me, can you pull back thecurtain on psychotherapy?
What is it?

Steve (05:33):
Sure, and I will do that in just a minute, but first I
wanted to speak to what you werejust talking about in this
deeper issue that's at play here, and it comes down to this it
is still not okay for men to bevulnerable in our society, and
that is in part because therecontinues to be a conflation of
vulnerability with weakness, andthe two things are not the same

(05:57):
.
Just because I might allowmyself to feel some very intense
, very overwhelming, verypowerful feelings, does not mean
I'm going to be reduced to ajust like you know, quivering
ball of flesh that can't doanything.
They're not the same, but theyoften are conflated as that, and

(06:18):
we still live in a society withall too many places where men
are punished for having feelingstreated as weak and all of that
.
And so when you start lookingat the idea of something like
therapy, where we're going totalk about, yeah, feelings, you
can see why people would havekind of a negative perspective

(06:39):
on it.
Of course, there's a heck of alot more to it than that, and so
, yeah, so the thing heretherapy is not, at least
necessarily just about likelet's have you get more
comfortable with your feelingsand get more, you know,
connected with your feelings,though that is often a component
of it.
But it really comes down to thisit's about how do we help

(07:01):
somebody who has what I wouldgenerally refer to as a hostile
or antagonistic relationshipwith themselves and the thoughts
and feelings in their head.
How do we transform that sothey have a healthy and
functional relationship withthemselves and all of those
parts, even the ones, andespecially maybe the ones that

(07:25):
they don't necessarily like somuch, because we all have those,
even me.
I've done more than my fairshare of therapy and guess what?
I still have those parts.
I have a different relationshipwith them now than I used to,
but I still don't love thoseparts.
I've just learned how to workwith them and I've come to see
they do have some value to offer.

Todd (07:45):
Yeah, I mean that resonates.
I mean I totally a hundredpercent agree with what you're
saying, because I've spent muchof my adult life hiding and not
understanding that it's okay totalk about feelings.
But in retrospect I can lookback and I can see some of the
best leaders that I encounteredin the military were people that
were emotional and they sharedtheir feelings but you still

(08:05):
respected them.
I mean people that have thiscommand presence but at the same
time they were personable andthey could interact with you and
they could share how they'refeeling about things.
That's as a society, I agree,we've really caused men to
suppress things.

Steve (08:20):
So yeah, and I think the thing here is that it's about
letting your feelings be whatthey're supposed to be, which is
a very powerful and importantsource of information.
Your feelings tell you aboutwhat matters to you, about your
values, about where those thingsare being violated or pushed on
or threatened, and there can betremendous power in emotion.

(08:43):
And there can be tremendouspower in emotion.
No-transcript becomesproblematic, but, as you've said

(09:06):
, when you see somebody whoreally understands the power of
them and can embrace it, there'stremendous energy there that
you can do some pretty impactfulthings with.

Todd (09:13):
Excellent.
Yeah, I'm from the mountains ofNorth Carolina, so we didn't
talk about feelings, we, uh no,we just bottled it up until we
exploded, Right?
So yeah, I've seen a lot ofthat.
So how does psychotherapycompare to just counseling,
regular therapy or other formsof therapy?

(09:34):
I'm speaking ignorantly here.
Sure, when does psychotherapyfit in the big scheme of?

Steve (09:38):
things.
So it's a good question and alot of this is just a matter of
labels.
There is in some cases, certainlegal elements, like
psychotherapy and I'm.
I can only speak to californiaas it relates to this stuff
because I that's the state thatI'm licensed in, but
psychotherapy is a um, it's alegally protected term here, so

(09:58):
anyone can call themselves acounselor, um, and there were,
you know, things around that area little bit different, but,
like you can't call yourself apsychotherapist unless you hold
specific licenses, and there'sfive or six different
psychotherapy licenses inCalifornia.
You might be doing more or lessthe similar work, not
necessarily to the same depth orother things, but at some level

(10:20):
any of these are about.
Therapist is obviously a genericterm.
Are you a psychotherapist?
Are you a massage therapist?
Are you a physical therapist?
People use therapist asshorthand because it turns out
that saying psychotherapist iskind of a mouthful.
Like you know, I still I mean,I've been doing this for a very
long time and like people willsay, you know what do you do?

(10:41):
I'm like I'm a psychotherapistHalf the time it comes out of my
mouth muddily, not like I don'tknow what I do.
It's just a hard word to say.
A lot of times it's like I'mjust a therapist.
Nowadays, therapy has at leastbecome a lot more normalized.
When somebody hears therapist,a lot of people just assume
psychotherapist, therapist.

(11:06):
So they're all basically peoplewho are helping people in some
way shape or form around issuesof psychological stuff, so stuff
in their head or aspects ofnavigating life in the world and
relationships.
But some of the different termscan relate to different levels
of training, different levels oflicensure, etc.
So there's a difference.
It's not necessarily a criticalthing, especially because

(11:27):
there's actually not much datasuggesting that a lot of the
different licenses or levels oftraining necessarily have a
great relationship to outcome.
As an example, there areintern-level therapists who
aren't licensed they're workingunder supervision who can get
outcomes that are better thanclinicians who've been

(11:48):
practicing for like 20-plusyears, like me.
Wow we don't do enough to studyoutcomes and what works, but

(12:08):
also because, much as we want tomake this into this hard
science, all measurable kind ofthing, the reality is it's a
healing relationship between twopeople and the quality of that
relationship is so unique and sonuanced and so critical to the
outcome that it becomes hard tolook at things like well, this
technique is going to workbetter than that technique,

(12:29):
because technique is only 15% oftherapeutic outcome anyway.

Todd (12:33):
Wow, that's eye-opening Because, yeah, I've talked to
various counselors and somepeople favor different
techniques over others and a lotof it was formulaic.
I mean, I would encounteredsome people that would just send
me a Word document and say hey,just read this document, and it
was like okay, cool, thanks.

Steve (12:52):
And Todd, how did that make you feel Unwanted?
Sorry, therapist joke, but thatis the thing.
People aren people, peoplearen't formulas.
I think therapeutic frameworkshave their place and I think
certainly there are conceptualelements that are, that are
critical and valuable.
So I don't want to becompletely dismissive of them.

(13:12):
But at the same time you can'treally think of therapy as a
recipe.
The process of me working withsomebody.
It's not.
It's not like it's not a recipe, it is a puzzle that we are
putting together.
So sure, there are certainideas and approaches and
concepts we can use to help dothat puzzle, but the reality is
we're going to visit every partof the puzzle a bunch of times.

(13:33):
We're not going to do it inorder.
We're going to have parts thatare really hard and parts that
are just super easy, and itdoesn't even make sense why.
That's always been my take onit.
It's not a recipe, it's apuzzle.

Todd (13:45):
Yeah, and I'm guessing you have to visit things many times
before people go.

Steve (13:51):
oh yeah, I get it now For a lot of different reasons, for
sure, for a lot of differentreasons, but yeah, that's true.
And people, you know, one ofthe conversations I've had with
literally almost every clientI've ever worked with is to be
like you know, why is it takingme so long to get this?
Or I bet none of your otherclients take this long.
Lot of this connects to ouremotional brain, to our amygdala

(14:25):
, to these very powerful, veryprimitive parts of our brain
that are wired and orientedaround survival, and so that
stuff can be very, very stickyin our brains.
It does not let go easily.
It takes work and practice,because you are basically
retraining yourself and, in theprocess, often dismissing

(14:47):
behaviors and things that yourbrain, at one point they
probably were a survivalmechanism, to be fair, but your
brain still thinks are, and sopart of your brain thinks you're
basically telling it to like dothe equivalent of you want me
to jump out of this planewithout a parachute?
No wonder that brain's like, uh, no, yeah no thanks.

Todd (15:10):
Yeah, I don't want to do that.
So yeah, now what's thedifference between therapy and
coaching?
You do both, yeah.

Steve (15:18):
Yeah, so that is a good and distinctive question.
So coaching and this is, I mean, coaching is a whole other
thing.
But so therapy is, again,legally regulated, right, and
every different state haslicensing requirements and such,
and very specifically, one ofthe things that comes into it is
we are treating people withdiagnosable mental health

(15:40):
disorders, and that's its ownkind of can of worms.
I won't get into thatparticular topic because we
could literally spend an hourtalking about diagnosis and all
of that, but suffice it to sayso.
This is some like somebody whois suffering from depression or
suffering from obsessivecompulsive disorder.
Coaching is not the appropriatething for them, and a coach who
treated them for that would bedoing therapy without a license,

(16:03):
which is legal issues, becauseyou're basically it's like a
doctor practicing without alicense same thing.

Todd (16:10):
So coaching is typically more.

Steve (16:16):
It can be related issues.
Right, you might be helpingsomeone to be more focused, to
be more productive, to be moremotivated, but you're working
with someone who's coming frommore of a I'll say a non, you
know a baseline.
That is not necessarily a casewhere they'd be able to be
diagnosed with something, so itmight be just someone who's like
, yeah, I'm, you know, I'm kindof scattered and overwhelmed or

(16:37):
stressed out and I don't knowhow to manage it.
Now there's cases where thatcan overlap.
I have people in my therapypractice who and I generally
avoid diagnosis unless it'snecessary anyway, but they don't
have a diagnosable mentalhealth disorder.
But again, the same tools andstrategies that I'm using can

(17:00):
work there.
But that is a person who, in adifferent context or situation,
they might choose to seek out acoach and that would be
appropriate.
So that's kind of a broadanswer, a shorter way you can
put it.
This is simplistic to to saythat up front.
Sometimes you, you can think ofit as therapy is often about
getting from bad to good andcoaching is about getting from

(17:21):
good to great or good to better.
I like that um, or okay tobetter, and that's you know.
So that's another way oflooking at it.
Coaching is inherently forwardthinking.
We're not going to talk aboutyour mom and coaching right, or
your childhood generally,because we're looking at more
how do we go forward, how do webuild on things, whereas therapy
we often are getting into thebackground, not because all of

(17:42):
us therapists are obsessed withyour mothers, but because we
actually understand the brainand how the brain works and how
our childhood experiences can beso fundamentally and deeply
shaping and how we see itengaged in the world.
And if we understand thosebetter, then we can work with
you to reprogram yourunderstanding of them so that
they don't control you in thesame problematic way that they

(18:04):
have been.

Todd (18:05):
So that's why we go there.
Yeah, one of my misconceptionswhen I was young was basically
you go get therapy and they talkyou into a problem and it's
like that's not it.

Steve (18:19):
And let's be clear, like I mean, there are therapists out
there who don't do their jobswell, like in every field, and
it is a thing where we have tobe careful because we are
sometimes opening up some thingsthat have been sealed and
closed off.
And that has to be done withcare and caution, because I'm

(18:39):
doing work with people sometimesthat can get some pretty
intense emotions coming up andif I'm not helping them be able
to deal with those, it canactually cause some real
problems.
So that's one example where itkind of could do what you're
worried about some real problems.
So that's one example where itkind of could do what you're
worried about.
But then there's also thisSometimes what we're doing is

(19:00):
we're taking something.
I would liken it to this let'ssay, god forbid.
As a teenager you're up in thetree in your family's front yard
, you fall out of the tree andyou break your arm and for
whatever ridiculous reason, yourneglectful parents don't take
you to the doctor.
Like it doesn't look that bad,it'll probably be fine, but it
turns out it's broken.
It heals, but it heals weirdright.
And then, like later on in life, you're like this is causing

(19:22):
some real problems for me andyou go see an orthopedist who's
like, well, okay, we get.
The good news is we can fix it.
The bad news is we're going tohave to break it and reset it
properly.
Therapy sometimes is similar tothat, but more in a mental,
emotional way.
We're taking these things andgoing and kind of opening them

(19:42):
up and that can be prettydistressing and it will
sometimes be a case where thingsmight get worse before they get
better, because we're goinginto stuff.
But it really has to be donewith caution, slowly,
deliberately, giving peoplethings to use to help soothe
themselves as they're goingthrough it, you know, and all of
that.
But the other one I sometimescompare it to is like remodeling

(20:03):
your kitchen.
You know, you get about a thirdof the way through and you're
like why did I set a bomb off inmy kitchen?
What the heck is wrong?
And it looks like this isn'tgood.
How is this progress?
But when you're done, of courseyou've got this beautiful new
kitchen.
So sometimes things got to getmessy before they get better.

Todd (20:18):
Yeah, yeah.
So I mean that lays thefoundation, then, for
psychotherapy, counseling andall of that stuff.
So let's talk about some of ourcommon struggles as human
beings.
Now you've used the phrasechronic adapter.
What is that, and how does thatnegatively impact us?

Steve (20:35):
Sure, so first I'm going to talk about actually how it
could be useful.
So adaptation is part of whyhumans are still here.
We are incredibly adaptable,right.
We adjust to different types ofenvironments, different kinds
of challenges, different kindsof situations, and that's great
when it's necessary.
Challenges, different kinds ofsituations and that's great when
it's necessary.

(20:55):
Sometimes people grow up inenvironments where they are not
given space or support for beingwho they are.
They're judged, they'recriticized, they're attacked,
they're punished.
Now, this can be something inany number of circumstances that
that can arise, right, that canbe somebody being bullied at
school for being a little bitdifferent.
That can be a home wheresomeone is just having normal

(21:17):
kid wants and needs, but becausetheir parents are narcissists,
they're not allowing space forit.
Or because their parents arecaught up in their own stuff and
their own drama, there's notspace for it.
So sometimes we learn to adaptas a way of getting by and we
get good at it.
Now it also has this sideeffect when you're really

(21:39):
adaptable and flexible, it willget you compliments and praise
if you do it right.
You're so strong, it's so greathow you adjust to all of these
difficulties and challenges andjust kind of go through with
them Uh-huh.
Yeah, it's great, except forthe fact that it's costing me my
identity, right, and so that'swhat I mean.
So it's one of those things,and this is true of a lot of

(22:05):
coping behaviors.
It's not like they don't havean upside right.
People are generally not justlike hitting their heads against
a wall right, because that isjust inherently bad and painful.
People do things becausethere's some real or perceived
benefit, and in a lot ofbehaviors like people pleasing
is another great example Yep, ifyou do it in the right
environment, it'll get you a lotof positive attention.

(22:27):
If you do it in a workenvironment, I mean, I used to
joke that basically when I wasin IT I worked in a couple law
firms and literally all theparalegals and legal secretaries
.
They were all people pleasersand it made them very good at

(22:47):
their jobs until they burned out.
Yeah, I can see that, and soany of those forms of adaptation
.
Again, they have an upside, butthey have this downside called
they're not sustainable and theytake your identity Right you
become a doormat.
You become a doormat and youdon't even know who you are
anymore, in some cases becauseyou're so busy being whatever
you think you need to be tomanage the environment right.

(23:08):
It's like a chameleon thatforgets what its natural color
is, essentially.

Todd (23:12):
That's the word.
I was Right when you said it.
I was thinking chameleon.
So yeah, chronic adapter, sothat can be.
That can have a negative impact.
Sure, so for me, I'm anoverthinker and I'm a huge
self-criticizer.
I'm always just torturingmyself.
Why do we do that and why can'twe stop doing?

Steve (23:30):
it.
So let's see.
So we'll tackle theself-criticism first.
I think there's a couple ofthings that go into that One,
and I want to say this likebecause I probably won't hit it
on everything we talk abouttoday.

(23:51):
Very few of these things have asingle solitary origin.
A lot of them have I like tothink of it as layers, and
there's almost always a societallayer, by which I mean there
are ways in which our culturecreates certain norms or puts
out certain messaging, or sayscertain things or teaches us
certain things, and theself-criticism is one where I'm
convinced that this is the case.
How many movies have you seenwhere it's a sports movie and

(24:16):
the team is down at the half andthe coach comes in and just
starts yelling at everyone andripping everyone and they come
out in the second half and dosome amazing performance and win
the game?
Or where it's happened on anindividual level, right, and
that's true.
You see that in the militarymovies, where the drill sergeant
comes in and just yells at themand screams at them and then
they get their act together andsuddenly turn better.
So we've got this message thatthat's actually an effective

(24:40):
motivational tool that has beenput out there through culture,
even though there's nothing inpsychological research to
support the idea that criticismdoes anything to help.
Criticism does anything to help.
It can in certain cases createa very short-term bump because
of fear, but it's notsustainable and it comes with a
tremendous price.
But I think that's one of thethings that comes for
self-criticism.

(25:01):
That's one.
Now here's another one One ofthe things that ideally happens
as we're growing up.
If we have healthy enoughparents who are appropriately
critical when we make mistakes,appropriately complimentary when
we do things well, we learn toget an accurate perspective on

(25:21):
right and wrong and learn tokind of engage around a more
healthy form of self-management.
We basically internalize thatparent eventually and it becomes
our internal kind of guide orconscience.
And there are people out therewho you know they have that and
they don't struggle with this.
If we don't get that, maybe wehave a parent who's particularly

(25:41):
harsh.
Maybe we don't have a parentwho's involved or engaged at all
, because they're eitherneglectful or they're engaged in
substance use or caught up inother things in their life.
They're just stressed outbecause they're working three
jobs.
We may not have a parentalmodel and it seems that if we

(26:02):
don't, what we tend to do is wetend to internalize this very
rigid black and white one thatdoes things like basically if
it's not perfect, it's garbage.
I do that, yeah, right.
And so there's any number offactors here where we have that
happen, where we we can reallyinternalize that, and it's
supported by this belief thatlike, well, that's how we get
ourselves to get better, exceptit doesn't actually work right.
Um, so I think that's a part.

(26:23):
I think there's also somemessaging around that the flip
of it is just this, like youknow, kind of hippy just go with
the flow, oh, everything's,everything's cool, it's all fine
, which is obviously its ownform of problematic.
And this is where, so this iswhere Kristen Neff and her work
around self-compassion, I think,is so important, because her
take is well, actually it's likethis.

(26:50):
It's basically like you've gotto find a way to allow yourself
to be where you are and toaccept that and look at where
appropriate or necessary, howcan or do you do better next
time?
Or another way I might put itto go buddhist for a minute is
uh, this is a quote from um Iwon't get his pronounce his name
, quite right shunru suzuki,who's the guy who founded the
san francisco zen center back inlike the 60s.
So he was fond of saying thisyou're perfect just as you are

(27:16):
and you could use a littleimprovement.
I like it yeah right, which iswhich is kind of self-compassion
in a nutshell.
So that's the thing that we'vegot to find there.
So that's that piece.
Now, overthinking is a numberof things that can go into that
right.
It's one.

(27:39):
We have problem-solving brainsand some of us really are
comfortable operating in ourheads, especially your head.
I mean, I won't say it's a safeplace, but at least it's free
from outside criticism.
Not mine when you're in there,I have tons of self-criticism.
I said it's free from outsidecriticism.

Todd (28:00):
Got it?
Yeah, I'm tracking, yeah.

Steve (28:02):
You know your internal critic, and that's another.
You know that one's familiar,and that's another reason.
By the way, sometimes peopledevelop very self-critical
voices.
It's as a way to try andtoughen themselves up against
the external voices they fear.
Yeah, and it's like nothing,and that's I mean, most
self-critics.
I know there's nothing anyonecan ever say to them that is

(28:23):
meaner than what they say tothemselves.

Todd (28:25):
Oh yeah.

Steve (28:25):
I've said that, yeah.
So the overthinking.
It's about a mix of very drivenproblem solving and being
comfortable there and a lack ofconfidence in one's ability to
find a solution and orunrealistic expectations about

(28:46):
the quality of your solution.
If it's got to be perfect, wellyou're going to keep working on
it until you get it perfect,and, as you know, virtually
nothing is or can be perfect,and so you're going to just keep
spinning in your head forever,if you let yourself Right.
So that's one, but a lot ofit's also just the like.
If there's this fear or lack ofconfidence around things, we

(29:08):
spin it around in our head untilwe try and find a perfect thing
and we can get caught up in theidea that that exists when it
doesn't right and this yeah, goahead, no, no, go ahead.

Todd (29:21):
I'm a huge overthinker.
I mean, coming into this chat,I'm just like oh no, I'm talking
to a psychotherapist, oh nodon't mess this.

Steve (29:30):
What happens if I don't ask the right questions?
Yeah, he's going to melt yourbrain.
No, I didn't feel that way.
Good, good sometimes to beimperfect and to be messy, in

(29:56):
part because we live in a worldwhere we don't get to see it in
other people nearly enough.
Okay, we talked earlier aboutlike it's not okay for guys to
show vulnerability.
So there's there's one, there'sone problem.
That's a simple one.
Then we look at things likesocial media and what's on
social media two sets of thingsOne, people's overly polished,
edited, refined videos, orthings like fail videos, which

(30:18):
is all of people's humiliatingmoments that are all clearly
painted as like that.

Todd (30:22):
Look at that loser Right.
You're that idiot.

Steve (30:25):
Right.
What's not painted is like ohlook, here's a human being human
it is sometimes, but not oftenenough.
So here's a human being humanit is sometimes, but not often
enough.
So it's like this we know allof our messy stuff, we know all
of our ugly bits, but for mostother people.

(30:45):
We have a wildly distortedpicture of them.
That's true, I have tooccasionally correct clients
about this who think, for somereason I have my life all
started out perfectly together.
It's like, no, no, I'm humantoo.
It's even worse because I knowthis stuff, so my brain can go
don't you should know better,steve?
It's like I might know better.
That doesn't mean I can dobetter, because I'm still a
human, right so.

(31:05):
But we get caught up in thisunfair comparison and it's like,
of course you're gonna fail,right.
It's like because there's justit's not even, it's not apples
to apples.
It's just not fair.
So there's a bunch of thosethings that can come into that
and plan, and again the exactmix looks a little different
person to person, but it's a.
It is a safety seeking strategythat is generally destined to

(31:32):
not really succeed and it comesat a tremendous cost, because we
spend a lot more time on ourheads than is of value and that
means a lot less time actuallydoing trying things, connecting
with people, taking risks.
And the thing is, when we startto do that, we start to learn

(31:53):
that, even though it might beuncomfortable or messy, that
stuff isn't going to kill us.
The more we protect ourselves,the more we can build up on,
unfortunately, our stories abouthow scary and awful everything
is, that it feels scarier.
So then we avoid it more andthen we reinforce the story of
how scary it is, so that itfeels scarier and you can see

(32:13):
the spiral.

Todd (32:15):
And then I don't like going out in public, and then we
don't even want to.

Steve (32:18):
well, yeah, this is exactly where we can see things
like agoraphobia or some ofthese other challenges that
people have.
It's because the spiral it getstighter and tighter and tighter
and tighter, and this is why itis so important to be engaging
in the world and doing thingsand to be taking risks and as a

(32:39):
society and this is so this getsat like parents and like
educators and people we have toembrace and encourage and
support people in trying andfailing.
We have to.
We have to, absolutely have to.
One of my favorite movies of alltime, which is a little bit

(32:59):
obscure because it just wasn'tsuper known and popular at the
time it came out, is called Meetthe Robinsons.
It's a Disney movie from 2017,I think.
No, it's way older than that2007,.
Maybe Anyway, I won't get theyear right it's called Meet the
Robinsons.
It's an animated film and thepoint about it is this it has

(33:20):
great, great messages aboutfailure.
It takes our traditional viewsabout failure and about mistakes
and it turns it all on its head, and it does it in a really
good way.
And the cool part is it'sactually something that was
derived from some of WaltDisney's beliefs and values,
which I think is cool too.
So that's a neat thing, butit's one of those movies I'm
like.
Everyone needs to see thismovie, and this is like because

(33:44):
the message is so transformativeif you internalize it.
Mistakes aren't the problem.
Making them repeatedly can be aproblem.
Making certain types ofmistakes, of course, can be a
problem, but by and largemistakes, if worked with
properly, are actually anessential ingredient in the path
to success and greatness.
The messy ugly, long, tedious,challenging path, yeah, but it's

(34:09):
still the path.

Todd (34:10):
Yeah, I recently read a book called Inner Excellence and
he pointed out in there.
He's like there's no failure,there's just feedback.
Maybe you won, maybe thatwasn't the best thing for you,
maybe losing was the best thingfor you so you could learn.
So that was instructive for me.
That helps for me as anoverthinker and self-criticizer,
so that's really helpful.

Steve (34:31):
I think that can be a tremendous framing, as long as
you give yourself space to feelthe disappointment, the
embarrassment, the frustration,the whatever.
It's not either.
Or Because if we get caught upin the like, you know, just jump
right to the like okay, what'sthe opportunity here?
What's the possibility?
That's where we start gettinginto the realm of toxic
positivity and it's just anotherform of dismissing our feelings

(34:54):
.
What we need to do is go oh,that sucked, or oh, that was
frustrating, or oh, that wasdisappointing, or oh, I don't
ugh, and to kind of letourselves shake it off.
Do that and then go okay, Isurvived.
What can I learn from this andhow can I use it going forward?
That's the feedback loop, right?
But yeah, give yourself spaceto be like okay, that sucked,

(35:17):
because a lot of the time itdoes.

Todd (35:20):
Yeah, yeah, Overthinking and self-criticism.
What I've seen myself do issomething I fail at something,
and then I just apply it tomyself in general, and then I
apply it to myself as a husband.
I apply it to myself as afather.
I'm a bad husband, I'm a badfather.
I, you know I do that and it'slike I recently, you know,
within the last few years, Ilearned that the book that I

(35:41):
mentioned, Inter-Excellence,actually speaks to that.
It's like you have to speakabout that in past tense.
It doesn't apply to youeverywhere.
So, yeah, you did this, youmade a mistake.
It's not who you are.

Steve (35:53):
So that was I'm just repeating what I heard I'm
learning here.
But it's good, that's a great,but it's a really important
thing.
It's like if we get tooidentified with our actions,
they can take on a power thatthey don't deserve, in a way
that doesn't serve us.
That can also work in reverse,right.

(36:13):
If you get people who thinkthat they're great and amazing
and walk on water because of onething that happened.
That's a whole different set ofproblems.
But it comes down to thisOverconfidence is bad, so is
underconfidence.
The more we can have anaccurate picture of ourselves
the Buddhists talk about theidea of true seeing as their,

(36:33):
their framing of this, which isan ideal that we don't ever get
to to be clear, right, but themore we can get there, the
better, because then we canactually work with an accurate
data set, right.
Yeah, you know if, if you askfor directions from san
francisco to new y, I can givethem to you, but if you're
actually in Texas, thedirections aren't going to work.

Todd (36:57):
So there's this word boundaries.
It's actually out there a lot.
I hear it a lot.
What are boundaries and how dothey help us?

Steve (37:05):
I like Brene Brown's definition of this.
Her thing is boundaries arebasically a clear articulation
of what's okay and what's notokay.
That's it right.
But we use boundaries as a wayof essentially navigating.
The intersection of our liveswith other people's lives is the
way that I put it right.

(37:26):
So a boundary can be.
It can be internal, aboutourselves and I do this thing or
I don't do this thing.
It can also be that right.
But it can also be I'm notgoing to let people speak to me
this way or I'm not going to dothis with these people, or any
number of things.
So it can be internal orexternal.

(37:46):
But it's really basically abouthow we manage the spaces so we
can be relational with people,Because if our boundaries are
too rigid and too harsh, then noone can connect with us, but if
our boundaries are too loose,we get walked on.

Todd (38:02):
Yes, and people pleasers.
Yeah, you're just allowing itto happen.
They scheduled a meeting at 6pm on Friday.
You know something like that,Right?

Steve (38:12):
exactly.

Todd (38:13):
And you just go to the meeting grumbling about it.
That's a great example.

Steve (38:17):
Yeah, it's like if you've got a thing going on or if
you're not willing to do it, youjust be like yeah, I'm sorry,
I'm not able to go to meetingsafter five o'clock on Fridays.
That's a boundary, right?
As an example, or any number ofother things.
You know, I'm not going to bearound people who are doing this
thing.
Ok, that's a boundary.
The key and this is a placewhere a lot of people get the

(38:39):
management of boundaries wrongis we've got to really be
mindful of what part of theboundary we can enforce, and we
need to set boundaries that wecan actually enforce.
Like I can't stop you fromdoing whatever you're doing.
I mean, I could, but I'd haveto like get physical and that's
weird and not okay.
Right, but what I can do is Icannot be around for it.
Yeah Right, yeah Right, I can'tbe like you can't yell at me.

(39:02):
I mean you can yell at me, Ican't really stop you.
I can say if you're going tokeep yelling, if you're not
going to lower your voice, I'mnot going to be able someone
who's yelling at me.
So if you're not able to loweryour voice, I'm going to have to
end this call.
You can keep yelling all youwant.
I just won't be there to yellat Right.

Todd (39:22):
I'm out.
I've got a funny boundary thatmy boss set with me.
One time it was 10, 15 yearsago I called him at 3 o'clock on
a Friday and just talking abouta customer problem or whatever,
and we were all remote workers.
He lived up in Maine.
I'm talking about the problem.
I'm like you know, talkingthrough it, hey, I want to do
this.
And he just stops me and goesTodd, I'm three beers in, so

(39:47):
let's pick this up Monday.
I was like that is a boundary.
I'm like that is so awesome.
Yes, okay, I'll talk to youMonday.

Steve (39:54):
Right.
A place where people pleasersoften struggle talking about
that is they assume otherpeople's boundaries and respect
them without having evenverified that they exist.
So here this happened, like aclient who will say something to

(40:18):
me.
They'll be like well, I wasgoing to send you an email but I
didn't want to pester you,which I appreciate that they're
trying to be considerate.
But the thing I will tell myclients is like one of my jobs
actually is managing theboundaries in this relationship.
Your job is to ask for what youfeel like you want or need.
If it is crossing a boundary,I'll manage that.
I'll do it gently.
I won't be mad at you.
We'll sort it out.
But like I don't, you know, Ican close my email app.

(40:41):
I don't care, I definitely likeyou can call me, you can text
me, you can email me, because Ican manage my boundaries.
If I'm not in a position whereI'm ready to engage with it, I
won't see it, love it.
You know you don't have toworry about it, but a lot of the
time you know that's whatpeople please.
Just I didn't want to botheryou, I didn't want to be a pest,
I didn't want to be this andwhatever, and they're the ones
who ask me like is it okay toask for, you know, whatever

(41:03):
thing which I can relate to,because I've been there a lot
myself.
I am big time recovering.
People, pleaser, to be clear,right, and I always, I always
say this if you can accept no,you can ask for whatever you
want.
There's a whole thing out there.
There's this this um guy who hedid.
He built this whole concept,this thing called rejection

(41:25):
therapy, and he did thisyear-long experiment.
It was a year long where everyday he went out with a specific
objective of getting rejected.
So he would go out and ask youto do ridiculous things,
although one of them is great,like the most, I think it's
probably the most famous of hisexperiments.
He goes to Krispy Kreme donutsone day and he goes could I get

(41:48):
donuts?
All put together again, theshape and colors of the Olympic
rings, and the person was likehold on a minute.
Goes back, talks to the manager.
The manager's like yeah, whendo you need them?
He's like could you do it now?
He's like yeah, that's fine.
And they did, oh, wow.

Todd (42:04):
Okay.

Steve (42:06):
He was like what?
Because he fully expectedthey'd just be like yeah, no, no
, sorry, we can't do that, youcan arrange it yourself.
So like that was, and that thatwas the big takeaway.
He was like, yeah, he'd havethese cases where he'd try to
get rejected and he would failat getting rejected.
He like he.
He asked a cop if he coulddrive his car and the cop let
him.
Like.

(42:26):
I mean, it's just exactly so.
The the book is called.
It's called rejection, proof isthe name of the book.
Um it, it is like, but it's sucha thing of understanding, like
how people we make our world somuch smaller than they need to
be.
Yeah, right, wow, and that,yeah, if we're willing to ask,
there's a lot more possibilityout there.

(42:49):
But I've seen this, I've seenthis with people who are, you
know, afraid, afraid to dothings as simple as return an
item to a store.
And so the thing I would dowith people is I'd be like, well
, here's what we're going to do.
I want you to go to Target, Iwant you to buy something,
something boxed or packaged,whatever small, go buy it, put
it in your trunk, and then Iwant you the next day to go back
to Target and return it.
And they're like what I read,what that's really.

(43:13):
You know, it seems, it seemsweird.
It's like, until you realizewhat it does is it's going to
bring up their anxiety aboutgetting rejected or about
getting judged or gettingcriticized, but all, of course,
that's happened is the targetperson's just going to be like,
yeah, whatever, yeah, no bigdeal.
And that's the thing we need tohave the experience of being,
of this thing being not no bigdeal, and that's the thing we

(43:34):
need to have the experience ofthis thing being not the big
deal.
That's how we disrupt the storyin our heads.
We think it's going to be awful, but then we experience it and
we're like oh no, big deal.

Todd (43:47):
Yeah, I've heard about stoic meditation practices where
I've actually done it, whereyou practice negative
visualizations.
You imagine the worst thingthat can happen and it you know
it helps.
But yeah, I'm thinking about,okay, I'm combining topics in my
head, Thinking about that guythat was trying to get rejected.
If he was an overthinker andself-criticizer, he would

(44:08):
probably be like oh, I stink atgetting rejected, I'm failing.

Steve (44:13):
Oh, my word, the thing we're afraid of into the
objective.
Yeah, and so the we.
So we make it where the thingthat we would have historically
considered a loss now becomes awin nice okay, this is it's.

(44:38):
It's a kind of it's one of thethings you're like that's stupid
.
It seems so ridiculous, but itworks because the human brain is
what it is.
It's because it's really it's.
Basically it's about tweakingthe equation, so it tips the
equation from uh yeah, no way,to like all right, that's.

(44:58):
And that's often.
All we need to do is we figureout.
I often use the concept of anequation with a lot of.
This is like, if we're notsomething, it's because our
assessment of it is that it's abad deal.
That doesn't mean it's anaccurate assessment, but if we
start to understand the equation, the way that we're formulating

(45:18):
in our heads, then we can startlooking at how do I shift this
equation?

Todd (45:24):
So it goes from a no to a yes, you're making me think of
the headmaster of the school.
Like my high school, when I wasa senior, he would send me out
on errands.
I didn't realize he was doingthis, but he would explain to me
.
Hey, he would send me to thenewspaper to get an ad or
something.
He was literally sending me outto do business for the school.
And he would say now, when youwalk in, you need to act like

(45:48):
you're in charge and you need todo this and you need to do that
.
And I walked in and I'm puttingon an act and I would say I
would just pretend that, okay, Ineed to do X, y and Z and I
need you to help me with blah,blah, blah.
And people responded positively.
I'm a 17-year-old kid and I'mwalking in and these adults in
their 30s, 40s, 50s they justresponded pleasantly and that

(46:10):
blew my mind because I wasexpecting them to go get out of
here, kid.
What are you doing?

Steve (46:15):
But yeah, of course, because we've got a story about
ourselves, but when we act in acertain way, we're projecting a
different story, as long as wecan pull it off people respond
to the story that we'reprojecting and that's a thing
that can be used for good or bad, but that was actually one of
the most useful pieces of advice.
I got in one of my IT jobsBecause I was going to customer

(46:38):
sites and I was kind of anxiousabout it.
I'm just walking in there, Idon't know anyone.
And one of my coworkers waslike just walk in and look like
you know the place or like youown the place, no one will ever
question you.
And it's true, you just walk in, go wherever and be.
And if anyone ever looked at me, I'd just be like here for the
computer stuff and they'd belike, oh, okay, yeah.
And it was like yep, and I'mwalking into, like I'm walking

(46:59):
through law offices and there'sall kind of and no one's even
blinking at me.
I'm like, right yeah, oh pretendyou're in charge, um, yeah, and
, but it is.
So it is one of those things ofwe can do some of that.
So this is where the whole ideaof like fake it till you make
it comes in.
Yep, right, because again, ifwe, if we operate as if we, it's

(47:20):
surprising because, because wecreate these really inaccurate
stories about our truth andabout the world and about
reality, but they seem real.
That's the hard part too.
It's not like we're like ourbrains, like I think I'm being
delusional right now it's like,no, the brain's like this is how
it is, and it's like, actually,no, it's not.
Um, it might some of it's right, but some of it's really wrong,

(47:41):
right, and so it's good to haveways to test it and to poke at
it, because that's how we learnwhat the truth really is.
Yeah, and when we get at thereal truth, then we have a much
easier time navigating the worldbecause again we're working
with the, we're working withdirections from where we

(48:03):
actually are, not where we saidwe were, or where we wish we
were, or where we fear we are.
Anyway.

Todd (48:09):
Yeah, so that's.
I mean, we talked about commonstruggles that we're all going
through from time to time, butlet's switch gears and talk
about how you help people grow.
Now you mentioned stories andframeworks that help people
build lives.
Can you elaborate on that, sure?

Steve (48:26):
So we internalize stories , in essence like it's something
like this so a thing happens.
Right, we do a thing, or athing happens, whatever, and
there's, there's some eventsaround it and we, our brains,
connect dots, but they don'talways do it well, and so we
build up these stories aboutourselves that are often

(48:49):
inaccurate.
Right, it might be somethinglike somebody who maybe tried to
play a few different sports asa kid, struggled with them and
just decided, like I'm no goodat sports, I'm not athletic.
Well, maybe they're notnaturally physically talented,
Maybe Maybe not, I don't knowphysically talented, Maybe maybe

(49:11):
not, I don't know.
But maybe all that happened isthey just didn't get anyone
helping them to learn athleticskills.
Maybe they had a distorted ideaabout how quickly you could
improve those skills or any ofthose things.
Right, I spent, because of somechildhood stuff with me.
I spent a good chunk of my lifeconvinced that I was not
creative, that I didn't get thecreative gene in my family

(49:32):
except multiple artists in myfamily, and it had nothing to do
with me not being creative.
It had me not having anunderstanding of how that
actually works.
And then, when I got enoughself-awareness and
self-development, I was able togo and engage in an extended
experiment where I was able toprove to myself that no
development.
I was able to go and engage inan extended experiment where I
was able to prove to myself that, no, I'm actually quite
creative if I want to be right.

(49:52):
So that's one thing, and partof my work is helping people see
the distorted stories that theyhave.
Now.
Often these are stories thathelp them or serve them at some
point.
Again, to be clear, it's notlike these are, you know, just
random things.
They're.
Often they were helpful at somepoint, now they're not.
And so my job is often to helppeople figure out what are these

(50:13):
stories?
Where did they come from?
How are they inaccurate?
And then writing a new storythat is more accurate.
Because, again, it's not likethe story is I'm a great artist?
Like no, because you're notmagically a great artist,
because you say you are.
You could say, right, I.

(50:35):
Or let's go back to this kid.
You know he could say I haven'thad the support, the practice
or the training to develop myathletic skills yet, but if I'm
willing to practice and get somehelp and support, I can get
better.
That's a workable story becauseit's true.
Yeah, I like that.

(50:57):
It's not a flashy story, butit's a workable story, right?
And this is if you're familiarat all with Carol Dweck and her
work around mindset.
This is growth versus fixedmindset, right?
Fixed mindset is I'm notathletic.
Growth mindset is I don't haveathletic skills now, but I could
build them if I did the work.
So I think that a big part ofit is helping for me, helping

(51:19):
people see that and shift that.
Now, for me, I like frameworksversus recipes.
Part of that is because I'mjust somebody who doesn't like
things being too rigid, I think,but part of it is also because
I think one size doesn't fit all, but often concepts do so.

(51:42):
As an example, talking abouthow growth and improvement works
.
Now, I could give you someallegedly great recipe for how
to improve yourself in anynumber of things how to deal
with your anxiety, how to dealwith your anger, how to, you
know whatever run a faster mile,but the reality is they all
come around to basic coreconcepts.

(52:05):
Take some action, gather somedata about how that action went,
make some refinements to theaction if necessary, and do the
action again.
That's it.
That's a framework.
You could do that in a lot ofdifferent ways, right, Like,
apply this to this non-athletickid, Like, Like, apply this to

(52:26):
this non-athletic kid, Likethere's any number of things
that he could do, and applyingthat.
And so for me, it's aboutfinding these frameworks and
then helping people figure outtheir specific implementation of
the framework Because, again,what will work for you and what
will work for me aren't alwaysgoing to be the same.

(52:50):
Our points of reference may notbe the same, right, North
Carolina, California, we're of asimilar age, so we at least get
certain generational references, but geographic ones might not.
So I try and find these thingsthat are really getting to the
bare bones of what are thecomponents that support a

(53:11):
certain thing, and then helpingpeople figure out what's their
particular expression orimplementation of that.
And because, when we build asolution that is personal, that
we help design one, it's morelikely to work.
But two, because we wereinvolved in building it, we're
actually way more likely to work.
But two, because we wereinvolved in building it, we're
actually way more likely tofollow through with it.

(53:33):
Which, by the way, for theparents out there, if you've
ever heard this the wholeparenting tip of have your kid
design their own consequencethere's a reason it works.
Yes, because once they createdthe solution, they're more.
They're more committed to it.
That's true with all this.
This is why, in a workenvironment, work
collaboratively, have the teamhelp build the solution, don't

(53:56):
impose it upon them.
Yes, that is so true Any numberof things I get.
There are certain situationswhere that's not viable or
practical.
Military might be a goodexample, but by and large…
Actually it's not.

Todd (54:09):
It's not like that, okay cool.

Steve (54:10):
See, my ignorance is showing here.

Todd (54:12):
No, no, I mean that's okay , because that's one thing I
like to point out.
One of the most intellectuallyfree organizations that I was
ever a part of was the MarineCorps, and I was infantry, and
you would think that it's justcommand and control.
You get a command and you both.
But that's not what they taughtus.
From the day we enteredbootcamp, they started

(54:33):
inculcating leadership into usand they said you need to be
making decisions because we needyou, and they talked about
combat and stuff like that.
They're like combat these warsare won down at the trench level
, with people making decisionsabout what needs to happen, and
so, yeah, it was a little bit ofan aside, but yeah.

Steve (54:52):
No, but that's great.
I appreciate the correction.
One and two okay.
I mean, that's exactly whatwe're talking about.

Todd (54:59):
I didn't take offense by you saying that it was just it's
a misconception, because youknow, for people that haven't
been in the military, there area lot of command and control
leaders and it doesn't work and,like you pointed out, you can
instill fear at the outset andit'll work for a short amount of
time.
But in the military, especiallyif you're in a combat zone, if

(55:20):
you're a leader and you'retrying to do it that way, try
and pose your will, you're goingto get killed by your own
people.
It's just reality, because theygo along for a short time and
then they're going to go.
No, we're not doing this.
I've seen it happen so manytimes.
I mean, I was never in combat,but we did have instances where
we had bad leaders and aboundary had to be set.

(55:42):
I'll just put it that way.

Steve (55:45):
I can imagine.

Todd (55:46):
But now so you've alluded to this, now Can you elaborate?
I mean, you talk about theinner work that has to be done,
and what I'm gathering is peopleare responsible for owning that
inner work outside of theirtherapy sessions.
Can you elaborate on that?

Steve (56:02):
Sure, I can share with you my insights or observations
about you and your behaviorpatterns or the actions that
you're taking or the ways yourthoughts are distorted, or any
of that.
I can give you all thatinformation in the world.
But, um, and as overthinkers dolike to do things like, think
that the answer is moreinformation, which is another
reason we get caught inoverthinking.
But we're also the same peoplewho read 10 books on a topic

(56:23):
when one would have covered usfine.
Um, I do that yeah yeah, sayyeah, same.
I've been known to do it myself.
It was a lot easier back beforethe internet when I could
actually read every book oncertain topics, you know.
But that's neither here northere the thing.
It comes down to this itdoesn't matter what I teach you,

(56:44):
what information I share withyou or any of that.
If you are not taking thesethings and putting them into
action, your brain will not getrewired, because that's what
this is about.
This is about, at some level,literally rewiring your brain.
I'm not doing it, you're doingit yourself.
But when you change how youengage with different situations

(57:05):
, how you think about certainthings, how you respond to
certain things, when you do thatconsistently over time, your
brain will literally rewireitself.
It doesn't matter how old youare.
So much for the old dog newtricks thing.
It can be harder when we'reolder.
It's not necessarily as fastand there's other things that

(57:28):
can get in the way of it.
But the point is it can be, andit really comes down to this
Our brain is trying to be energyefficient, because our brain
uses a very disproportionateamount of the energy that our
body uses, and so when itnotices these things go together
, it's like cool, I'll make ashortcut and it wires a shortcut

(57:48):
.
That's great, unless it's a badhabit, in which case it's not
great, or unless it's a habitthat serves us and then stops
serving us so it's no longergreat.
But if we stop using it, itwill disconnect itself in time
as a new one gets wired.
But that process doesn'tnecessarily happen as rapidly
when we're older as when we'reyounger, right, but it's always

(58:11):
true.
But that's that's aboutrepetition.
It's the same thing of, likeyou know, if you, I give my
daughter a hard time about this.
Like you know, she should gotake her flute lesson and then,
if she doesn't practice it, it'slike you're not going to really
integrate what you learned ifyou don't practice it.
Right, it's.
It's like the learning.
The learning is such anactually small part of the work
which is really disappointing tome to discover I'm good at

(58:35):
learning.

Todd (58:36):
And it's nice and clean and easy right, the doing is all
messy.

Steve (58:38):
I can pump the info into my head.
Yeah, absolutely.
You need me to read 10 books.
Okay, cool, what about tomorrow?
But the doing is obviously amess here.
But that is actually where thegrowth lies.
But this, to touch back on stuffwe've been talking about growth
is messy, it's imperfect, it'sbumpy, it's weird, and this is
why it is so important that weare able to allow ourselves to

(59:02):
be messy, clumsy, stumblingimperfect human beings along the
way.
The process is messy, there'sjust no way around it.
The thing is whether or not youtell yourself it's a problem.
Right, see, like if you remodelyour kitchen and in the middle
of the remodel, when the kitchenlooks like a bomb went off in

(59:22):
it, you're not thinking this isa problem.
You're like, yeah, it's in themiddle of the remodel, no big,
it'll be great when it's done.
And it is yeah story.
Back to story.
There's a story you have aboutthe messiness of your kitchen in
the middle of the remodel, anaccurate story.
Of course, it's got to getmessier before it gets better.

(59:42):
We build stories about beingmessy as humans that are wrong
and they're awful because theyget in the way.
Instead of the story of humans.
Life is messy, humans are messyand, oh my god, the world is
changing so fast.
The world like I I see thiswith my daughter right, because
she's she's 15 and I'm 55 likefour years a lot has changed and

(01:00:06):
we we joke about it a lot, butit's like.
So I try and both share thingswith her about like what life
was like, but not from thestandpoint of like thinking it
has anything to do with today'sreality.
I try and be aware of and I tryand understand her reality
because it's it's incrediblydifferent.
Oh yeah, you know, and a lot, alot of it's actually a lot
harder.
Yes, um, I mean I'm superjealous of like music streaming,

(01:00:27):
because if I could haveliterally every song I wanted in
something I could hold in myhand, I would have just sat in
my bedroom listening to music24-7 as a kid.
But other than that, I thinkit's a lot harder today.

Todd (01:00:42):
Yeah, these kids don't know about the record store and
thumbing through the albums, thevinyl, that was an experience,
that was fun.

Steve (01:00:53):
Yeah, no, I, I, I've spent.
I used to spend like, yeah,there were like, when I was a
teenager in Santa Cruz or whatfour record stores in downtown
Santa Cruz and so I would like,you know, I had to take the bus
home from work and I'd have togo through downtown to do it, so
I'd change buses, but I'd goand like and like an act two
hours, go, wander around, checkout all that.

(01:01:13):
I was amazing, Like, yeah, thatwas.
Then that's like.
Yeah, that doesn't, thatdoesn't exist anymore.

Todd (01:01:18):
We'd scrounge a little bit of money enough to buy some
music and you get.
Then it switched from vinyl tocassette tapes and all this
stuff and it was.
That was an experience, butyeah, it was very expensive.
Now we can just stream it.
So, yeah, that's cool man, thiswas deep man.
I really appreciate this.
This is this is edifying.
So, I'm man.

(01:01:39):
What an honor to talk to you,man.
Yeah, let's wrap it up here.
But how do people get in touchwith you?
Where can they find you?

Steve (01:01:45):
So simplest way is just go to my website, which is just
my name, so that'sstevemccreadycom and that's M, c
, c, re, a, d Y, so you can gothere and you can connect to me
via.
Via that you can also if you'resomeone who's on Tik TOK.
I've been playing on Tik TOK alittle bit.
Lately.
We'll see how this.
It's currently in theexperiment stage, but I'm

(01:02:06):
posting some videos there, sothat's another place you can
catch me and whatnot.
But if you want to connect withme directly, just go to my
website.
There's plenty of links.
You can send me an email.
I'm happy to answer anyquestions or other stuff.
Or if someone's interested inlooking at working together, you
can set up a consult and justbe happy to talk and explore and
see if it makes sense.

Todd (01:02:24):
Yeah, both counseling therapy and coaching.

Steve (01:02:27):
Yeah, yeah, both counseling, therapy and coaching
.
Yeah, it's just one site.
So, yeah, they can reach outand they don't even need to know
what they need.
I always tell people I was like, don't worry about it, we're
going to talk about what's goingon and I'll share with you my
thoughts on what's up.
And because my goal is I'm nothere to help everyone, I'm here
to help certain people withcertain things.
But if anybody stumbles in mydoor, I'm going to at least try

(01:02:48):
and make sure I point them inthe right direction, whether
that's here's a person youshould talk to.
Here's a book that would helpyou.
Here's a resource, you know,because, well, yeah, I mean,
this life thing is hard.
We all need a little help hereand there.
You know it's not much efforton my part to do it.

Todd (01:03:10):
So if I can help point people in the right direction, I
like it, man.
So here are my takeaways.
We're all human.
We've got some very commonstruggles and needs, and therapy
provides healing where you needit.
Coaching can help you improve.
So that's what I'm taking awayfrom this discussion and, yeah,
this got really deep.
So I'm looking forward toactually listening to this
recording.
So, yeah, good stuff.
But visit Steve's website.
Contact him for services.

(01:03:32):
Maybe he's not a good fit, andI've said this on previous
episodes when you're talkingabout getting counseling or
therapy, not everyone's a goodfit.
But if maybe Steve's not a goodfit, that's okay.
Find someone.
If you're stuck somewhere, ifyou're dealing with these
struggles, get with someone tohelp you.
That initial contact withwhomever might not be a good fit

(01:03:53):
, that's okay.
Move on to the next, but findsomeone, because there are
people out there that aretrained in how to help people
get unstuck, find healing,recovering from past wounds.
Work on that.
So Steve also alluded to somebook recommendations here and
we'll put links on thedescription here to Steve's
website.
Also, some of these bookrecommendations I was writing

(01:04:15):
them down while you were talking, but the one was
self-compassion the proven powerof being kind to yourself.
You also mentioned hererejection proof and then that
book from Carol Dweck Mindset.

Steve (01:04:29):
Yeah, so her book is called mindset.
It's that one.
It's.
It's I.
The concepts are interesting.
The book itself, I'll say thisit's always one that I'm like.
It's like a guardedrecommendation, um, but it's.
It's useful, um.
Also, I'll tell people, any ofbrené brown's books are really
powerful.
The thing with Brene I'm a fanof her earlier works, just maybe

(01:04:52):
because that was myintroduction to her.
The thing that I think Brenebrings to the conversation is
she manages to integrate a lotof these concepts and ideas in a
way that's very relatable butstill has the research rigor
behind it.
And so if you find some of thiscause, some of this stuff is a
little more psychological thanyou know a lot of people want to

(01:05:15):
get.
Yeah, first off is very, Ithink, very accessible, um, and
so from that standpoint, that'sone reason I like it, although
the I don't want to talk aboutit the Terrence real book, that
is also very accessible and it'sjust, it's a.
It's a powerful read just inand of itself.
But anyone who either hasstruggled with depression as a
man or has been adjacent tosomebody who's a man who's

(01:05:36):
struggled with it, that bookwill educate you, it'll speak to
you.

Todd (01:05:41):
Yeah.
So I've really enjoyed the chat.
Steve, Appreciate it so muchman, Absolutely yeah.
Thanks.
Thanks for listening.
Much man, Absolutely yeah.
Thanks.
Thanks for listening, and ifyou've enjoyed this episode,

(01:06:09):
please consider leaving a review.
Share it with your friends andgo check out Steve's website
about life.
That's gonna force you now.

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#23 Steve McCready - The Myths Keeping you STUCK in Mid-Life! A Psychotherapist Sets the Record Straight

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#23 Steve McCready - The Myths Keeping you STUCK in Mid-Life! A Psychotherapist Sets the Record Straight