#24 Andrew Profaci - Lessons From a Cult Survivor

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In this episode, we delve into Andrew Profaci's incredible escape from the notorious Love Has Won cult, revealing the darkest corners of psychological manipulation and leading to the illuminating light of truth. As Amy Carlson's closest companion, Andrew witnessed firsthand how cult leaders exploit vulnerabilities through powerful psychological control, transforming ordinary individuals into devoted followers. 

What makes Andrew's story compelling goes beyond sensational headlines featured on Dateline, HBO, and Vice; it encapsulates a universal human struggle with vulnerability and belief systems. His tumultuous childhood experiences left him susceptible to the cult's seductive allure. After a tragic car accident at 18 claimed his friend's life and led to his own opioid addiction, profound spiritual questions emerged—serving as an unexpected gateway to a path he never anticipated. 

The pivotal moment of Andrew arriving at the cult’s house reveals shocking truths—encountering an incoherent, intoxicated woman instead of the charismatic leader he expected. Despite immediately recognizing red flags, he remained entangled in this web of deception. This tension between awareness and attachment forms the backbone of his narrative, culminating in his brave decision to expose a massive hoax from within and ultimately break free. 

Embark on this transformative journey through manipulation, resilience, and redemption with Andrew Profaci’s remarkable story. His memoir "The War on Love" provides deeper insights into these harrowing experiences while offering wisdom for anyone questioning their beliefs and seeking personal freedom.

Where to Find Andrew: 

https://thewaronlove.com/ 

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Resources from This Episode: 

The War on Love, by Andrew-Ryan Profaci: https://amzn.to/45tut05 

As an Amazon Partner, our podcast earns from qualified purchases at no extra cost to you. 

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Episode Transcript

Todd (00:00):
This is the Cluttered Path , a compass for midlife.
Andrew Profaci was once in theinner circle of a cult called
Love has Won, an onlinecommunity whose followers
believed that their leader, amyCarlson, was literally God

(00:22):
incarnate.
For nearly a year, andrew wasAmy's closest companion inside
this cult, where she calledherself Mother God.
He saw through theirmanipulation and control tactics
and he started speaking outfrom inside the group, before
eventually leaving.
But here's what no one tellsyou about escaping a cult.
The hardest part wasn't gettingout.
It was learning to trust hisown thoughts again after years

(00:43):
of being told reality itself wasa lie.
Andrew's story isn't just aboutcults.
It's about resilience,overcoming adversity, breaking
free from manipulation, findingthe truth and finding God while
facing your own mortality.
Now the story's been featuredon Dateline, nbc, hbo, vice and
other media outlets, andAndrew's also written a memoir
entitled the War on Love, whichtells his story Now.

(01:06):
Today we have the privilege ofhearing the story directly from
Andrew.
We'll talk about these dramaticevents, but his story isn't
just about a cult.
It's about that resilience, theovercoming adversity, breaking
free from manipulation andfinding truth.
Andrew, welcome to the show.

Andrew (01:23):
Hey, thanks for having me Really a pleasure to be here.
I'm looking forward to talkingwith you and giving your
audience a great show.

Todd (01:30):
I hope I read the book, man, and after reading the book
it's like I got to talk to thisdude, it's so I'm glad that we
were able to connect man solet's jump right in man, let's
get into that story.
So let's start with yourchildhood, because that's an
influencing factor here.
Now, from birth, you had quitethe eventful childhood.
Where were you born and whatwas the situation with your

(01:52):
parents at the time?

Andrew (01:53):
Yeah.
So, born in Freehold, NewJersey, which is central New
Jersey, not far from the beach,raised by a single parent, my
father had gotten custody, wentthrough a nasty divorce with my
mom when, I mean, she actuallyfled the state while I was still
in her tummy, with my brotherand myself running from my

(02:13):
family that had mafia ties backin their early 80s they were
still pretty strong, you knowand she tried to hide away in
Tennessee.
Really ugly divorce.
But dad got custody, he raisedme and my brother Didn't see my
mom much.
My dad worked a lot when I wasyoung.
He was great.
He was a Boy Scout troop leader, soccer team coach, really did

(02:34):
everything that he could.
And as the teenage years came onhe actually came out as being
gay and it was something that hea life he had hidden from,
especially with my family'sbackground.
My grandfather had alwayssuspected and my father, you
know, always said no.
So there were some issues thereand you know my father had

(02:56):
denied himself this life for along time and when he came out I
was a young teenager, about 12,13, and he began living that
life and I didn't really seemuch of him.
After work he was going outwith his friends.
He wasn't getting home untillate at night I was already in
bed asleep.
Me and my brother wereessentially raised by a nanny.
We had Trinidadian and Jamaicannannies our whole life growing

(03:20):
up a handful of them that raisedus essentially Again, mom
wasn't around.
Up a handful of them thatraised us essentially Again, mom
wasn't around and because ofthat, you know, it created a lot
of issues for me as far asjudgment, identity crisis as a
teenager, not having a rolemodel, not really having anybody
.
That was, you know, teaching usabout the world, answering the
tough questions, you know, andgetting us ready for life,

(03:42):
explaining, you know, why schoolwas important, things like this
, doing homework.
So I just started to trail offinto my teenage years and
rebelled and things just took ona life of their own.

Todd (03:56):
At that point, yeah, my life growing up, my dad was a
truck driver and my mom sheworked like the graveyard shift
at a cotton mill and I'velearned now as an adult that not
having your dad around yourparents there it leaves a hole.
At a minimum, you miss out onsome development opportunities
there.
So, yeah, that leaves a hole.
So what were you into as a teen?

Andrew (04:18):
Growing up, I mean, I was huge into sports baseball,
soccer.
I was very athletic, blowingoff steam.
That was a really good outletfor me.
But you know, as you got intohigh school I wasn't playing
sports as much because I wasgetting in trouble at school.
Really, I was getting detentiontwice, three times a week just
for showing up late, you know.

(04:38):
And then I would realize thatto show up late to to school
twice, get two detentions don'tgo to and then I get a day off
from school because they giveyou a suspension.
So that is.
You know I fell into thispattern where I was getting in
like little stupid trouble atschool, starting to miss a lot
of days, wasn't able to playsports and started hanging out

(05:01):
with you know the wrong crowd Ifound myself with.
You know the other kids whodidn't have role models, didn't
really have direction in theirlife, people who were up to you
know for kids not doing anythingtoo serious, but still you know
not great things.
You know getting into fights,thinking you were tough, putting

(05:21):
on this.
You know tough exterior becauseyou thought that's what it
meant to be cool, and for meespecially, being teased,
ridiculed for having a gayparent.
You know, at 13, 14, trying tobe cool in high school, that was
a really tough time for me, soI really did retreat into that
act tough persona Somebody sayssomething to me it was quick to,

(05:45):
you know, get into a fight anddefend myself, because I thought
that's what it took for me toovercome the definition of my
father's sexuality, which I feltlike was defining me, and it
just it put me on a bad road.
Unfortunately, and you know,like I said, things got out of
hand and I started getting in alot of trouble.

Todd (06:06):
Yeah, now in the book you shared that you joined a gang
the Body Snatchers.
Is that what?

Andrew (06:10):
they were called.

Todd (06:11):
Yeah, that's right.
So did they sort of become asurrogate family to you?

Andrew (06:17):
Yeah, pretty much.
I mean I was with them everyday.
If I wasn't in schoolafterwards, I was always hanging
out with them, especially onthe weekends.
You know, we had a lot of fun.
It wasn't always healthy fun,even 15, 16,.
A lot of alcohol involved, nota lot of drugs, you know
marijuana, but nothing like hardor too serious stuff, just kind

(06:39):
of like drinking and kids andblowing off steam.
But we thought we were tougherthan we were for sure, and the
gang itself didn't have any realgang activities or weren't.
It's not like anybody was like,you know, selling drugs and
doing things like this.
It was just, you know, a namewe had given ourselves or that
they had given themselves beforeI joined and eventually know,

(07:03):
kind of beat me up and beat meinto the gang and that was my
initiation one day at a bowlingalley.
And it was funny because thefriends that I used to have in
high school that made fun of meall the time happened to be
there at the bowling alley andsaw this.
They thought it was the coolestthing they'd ever seen.
You know, I had gotten beateninto this gang and that was

(07:25):
totally the wrong thing for myego at the time because it just
kind of pumped me up and sent mein that direction even further.

Todd (07:32):
Right yeah, so it was.
It was a gang, but notnecessarily a criminal
enterprise.
It was a group of boys up to nogood pretty much yeah, exactly
Is that a fair assessment?
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
You had a very tragic eventhappen to you at age 18.
Can you talk about that?

Andrew (07:46):
Yeah, so that was pretty much the culmination of a lot
of that energy coming fullcircle.
You know, making bad decisions,living recklessly, living life
in the fast lane, literally.
And I was hanging out with afriend one night, getting rowdy.
We had picked up a couple girlsfrom a party.
That was the last thing Iremember about 11 o'clock, 11.30
at night and the road that theywere on.

(08:07):
We picked them up from a housein a development and the road
that led to it had a longstraightaway when you come out
of it for about three-quartersof a mile, and it went into a
hard S-turn.
Now I don't remember any of this, but my friend had a really
fast car, a Mitsubishi eclipse.
I had a twin turbo in it and uh, I know he he must have been
showing off his car for thegirls that we had picked up

(08:29):
girls.
He didn't know that I did and Iwas introducing him.
So you know, new girls wants toshow off.
And uh, unfortunately he wasn'tvery familiar with this road,
he wasn't from my town, hedidn't see that s turn, coming
overcompensated to the left,sent us into a tree off the road
and into a tree at about 60miles an hour, unfortunately on

(08:50):
my side of the door.
All the energy went through thedoor and through my pelvis and
jim, who was a tall guy in alittle car, unfortunately
snapped his neck and was goneinstantly.
Oh, yeah, it was.
It was not good.
The two girls in the back wererelatively unscathed, all things
considered.
One had a broken ankle, one hada a gash above her eyebrow.

(09:12):
Other than that, you know, thethree of us the fact that we
were even alive was, um, wasincredible.
Uh, the car was, was crumpledaround the tree.
It took them at least 90minutes to to cut us out and
medevac me by helicopter to thetrauma center for fear of
internal bleeding.
Other than having my pelvisexploded by all that energy

(09:36):
going through it, uh, other thanthat I I didn't, literally
didn't have a scratch on me, um,so I was really blessed and
that kind of planted this seedof wondering about you know
being protected by God andangels and, you know, started me
thinking about you know moreimportant questions in life that

(09:57):
would one day lead me down aroad of spirituality.
Right, that was an inflectionpoint in your life then of
spirituality, right, that was aninflection point in your life
then.
No, no doubt about it.
It it, you know, it did.
I didn't wake up, you know, andchange my ways right away, but
it planted the seed and I beganchanging.
There was no doubt.
I woke up in the hospital roomor came to.

(10:19):
I was conscious the whole time,but my brain has taken the
memory of it, which tell you thetruth.
I don't mind, I don't want toremember being stuck in that car
for 90 minutes with Jim layingon top of me.
I can't imagine.
So I'm grateful I don'tremember.
But I came to in the hospitalroom and I say that when I woke

(10:39):
up in that hospital room, I wasnot the same person who had
gotten out of bed that morning,for sure.

Todd (10:45):
Oh, my word.
And so then, after the accident, in the months after you
developed an opioid addiction,right?

Andrew (10:52):
Yeah, 18 years old, 2002 .
This happened October 28, 2002.
They just filled me up withPercocets 10 milligram Percocets
.
No warnings, no worries aboutwithdrawal and addiction.
No warnings, no information.
Just take one pill every fourto six hours, as needed for pain

(11:14):
.
And after a year and a half itwas one day it was well, you're
all fine now.
So we're not giving you thesepills.
Next thing, I know I was indeep withdrawal.
I had no idea what withdrawalwas.
Next thing, I know I'm just,I'm sick, I'm nervous, I'm
sweating.
All I could think about wasgetting more of those pills.
I had no idea what washappening to me and it freaked

(11:35):
me out.
And that's really started theaddiction going down the wrong
road for me.
Wow, yeah, I.
You know I always look back onthat and wish they had never
given me any painkillers, atleast opiate painkillers.
Tylenol would have served mebetter, especially considering
all of the problems that theaddiction had created for me in

(11:57):
my life.

Todd (11:58):
Right, I was reading a book from one of the GWAT
veterans coming back who hadbeen wounded terribly.
He got addicted to opioids andhe said the opioids coming off
of those were worse than theinjuries.
Just terrible impact.

Andrew (12:12):
Man, it's no doubt a very, very tough thing to go
through.
And you know they change themakeup of your brain.
You know they actually changethe way your neurons fire.
They make you dependent on it.
You know, not just physicallybut mentally.
You know, and it really itturned me into a person I didn't
want to be, that's for sure.

(12:32):
You know I was running from thewithdrawal every day and it,
you know it, made you desperate.
And you know that's when youhear about drug addicts doing
crazy things, you know, gettingarrested, and these crazy
stories on the news.
And it's just because of how,how incredibly difficult of a
place you find yourself in withthat addiction.
It's really not good.

Todd (12:53):
That's rough man.
You had a tumultuous childhood.

Andrew (12:57):
It was nothing, if not eventful, there's no doubt about
that.
But you know, looking back now,thankfully, you know I had a
lot to learn from.
So there was a lot of growththere for me, which I'm grateful
for.
I don't know if everybodycommits themselves to learning
and growing from all of theirexperiences that way, but I have

(13:18):
and thankfully I've been ableto transform a lot of it
Excellent.

Todd (13:22):
Now I want to read a quote from your book and then ask a
question about that.
Yeah, sure.

Andrew (13:27):
You said this.

Todd (13:28):
around the time of these events, you said, long before I
entered a cult, I was alreadybeing shaped by forces and
events that I didn't understand.
So is it safe to say, then,that your childhood made you
more susceptible to the lure ofa cold?

Andrew (13:43):
Yeah, no doubt about it.
I believe that for sure.
The need to redefine who I wasand my image being made fun of
and ridiculed me wondering who Iwas, having felt like missed
out on my potential missedopportunities.
I wanted to be a lawyer.

(14:03):
When I went to school, I mean,I did nothing.
I passed, uh, high school with ac plus average and you know I'm
the kind of person who shouldhave been getting straight a's
really, and you know I I lookback on it as really a missed
opportunity.
So that certainly played alarge part of it.
And, and you know, I had someexperiences that I talk about in

(14:25):
the book as far as at night,during my dreams, there were
actually waking nightmares thatI had seeing these.
I don't even know what theywere, but they looked like
people.
I used to wake up in the middleof the night and they'd be
standing silently in my roomjust staring at me, and this
happened weekly for almost 10years and it was incredibly

(14:47):
scary.
And that was another thing thatleft me with a lot of questions
about wondering what it was andopened me up to conspiracy
theories and asking about thenature of life and things like
this.
For sure?

Todd (15:01):
Yeah, so your childhood parents split up.
When you were born, your dadwasn't really around that much.
Kids making fun of you joiningthe gang and then they terrible
accident losing your friend jim.
That's just setting the table,man, it's yeah, it was.

Andrew (15:18):
Yeah, it was heavy.
It was definitely heavy.
That quote is a good one.
I appreciate you pulling it outbecause you know those events
really did.
You know they're so unique andthey did put me in this unique
place that made me susceptibleto you know one of these high
control groups, right?

Todd (15:37):
Yeah, when I'm reading the book, I hit a lot of these
quotes and you just have to stopand go.
That's deep and there's a lotof that in the book.
So I appreciate you sharingthose thoughts, man.
It's good.

Andrew (15:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know I tried to dig outeverything that I could.
As far as you know, when Iwrote the book, really Nothing
was off the table.
You know, I just tried to bearit all and speak my truth.
I'm somebody who's you know,thanks to what I went through as
a kid with my father, you knowI've learned to be very

(16:09):
comfortable in my skin and Ithought it would be best if I
put it all out there, and that'swhat I did.
I didn't hold anything back.

Todd (16:16):
Yeah, so let's switch gears and let's talk about your
journey into the cult.
Let's start with this.
What is the origin of this?
Love has Won cult.

Andrew (16:26):
So the origin I mean at the very beginning, I mean
started one day with Amy Carlsonmeeting this gentleman online
who claimed to be Father God Hisname was Amoreth, as I believe
this story goes and met himonline and she thought he was
Father God.
She was eating dinner one nightwith her children and her mother

(16:47):
sisters a family dinnerliterally got up from the table
and said I'm leaving and leftthe house and never came back
and they thought maybe she'sgoing to the store I mean,
nobody would ever think she wasleaving like that but she
literally just got up from thetable and never came back and
went in and sought thisgentleman named amaranth, who

(17:09):
called himself amaranth whiteeagle father god, and convinced
amy that she was mother god.
And she started doing thesevideos and you could still find
them on youtube and sheeventually split from him and
said I am Mother God, but he'snot really Father God.
And then, you know, every malewho came in front of her caught

(17:30):
her eye.
From that point on becameFather God from 2012, 2011, 2012
, all the way to 2021, when shepassed.
You know, all the men that shewas engaged with became her
father God because she wasmother God.
But obviously there's a lotmore that happened, you know,
leading up to it and before shepassed in 2021.

(17:52):
But that's kind of how it allstarted, with this man who
convinced her she was mother God, and then she took the reins
and just ran with it.

Todd (18:02):
I mean I'm laughing about the fact that people make up
titles and grandiose titles, butin reality, I mean it's a
really sad situation.
She had her own issues growingup as well that led her to be
susceptible to that, I'm sure Idon't know anything about her,
though.

Andrew (18:18):
Sure, sure, yeah.
I mean it doesn't take a geniusreally to put two and two
together.
It doesn't take a genius reallyto put two and two together.
You know somebody like that.
The title for her was.
You know it was supposed to bea mask and a defense mechanism,
but it turned into her prison.

Todd (18:35):
Oof, that's deep dude.

Andrew (18:38):
It turned into her prison.
The Mother God persona wassomething that she undertook
really to protect herself, tonot look at and deal with the
issues that she had, and in theend it became the prison that
killed her.

Todd (18:52):
Oh my goodness, it's tragic dude and it is a sad
story.

Andrew (18:56):
Like you said, you know, in the long run it's a sad
story.
She, when she did pass away,you know she had been slowly
falling into worse and worsehealth.
She asked for help to see adoctor and, because of her own
teachings, her followers toldher no, if we take you to the
hospital, they're going toassassinate you.
That's what you've taught us.

(19:17):
So we can't take you to ahospital because they'll
assassinate Mother God.
And she never got any help.
Nobody ever took her to adoctor and, like I said, the
Mother God persona really becamethe person that ended up
killing her.

Todd (19:32):
That belief system she came up with was her demise.
Wow, so how did you firstencounter the cult?

Andrew (19:41):
They had a website where they aggregated content online
and posted it in one place.
So when I was searching forarticles on conspiracy theories
or spirituality, I didn't haveto go from website to website
searching and spending lots oftime.
This is good, this is not good.
She thought a lot like I did,and the articles that she chose

(20:02):
to pick on her website allreally resonated with me in that
way.
So when I found her website,you know it was perfect because
I didn't have to go searchingfor all these other articles.
What I didn't realize was that'swhere the isolation began,
because I started cutting offeverything else and I was just
taking in the information thatwas coming from her in her
website.

(20:22):
And after a days I realizedthere was a button in the top
right corner that said you know,join our chat room.
And I eventually one day wentin the chat room and saw there's
20, 30 people in here alltalking about the same things
I'm interested in People askingquestions about life and
spirituality that I'm interestedin.
Here's this girl very pretty,seems to be very intelligent.

(20:45):
Her screen name says Mother God, but I didn't realize what that
meant at first.
And there was another guy witha screen name Archangel, michael
and Horace, and you don't thinkmuch of it.
In a spiritual community,people have screen names of all
kinds of stuff like this, soit's not a big deal.
And it wasn't until a week orso in when I asked her about the

(21:06):
screen name and I had an idea.
I heard her call herself mothergod a couple times and she
actually told me like no, it'snot a screen name, I am mother
god.
And kind of laughed and thenshe went on, just you know, like
it was no big deal, like shehad been asked that question a
million times and didn't reallywant to spend too much time
explaining it to anybody.
Who was I?

(21:26):
I was just some guy showing upin a chat room, you know, kind
of challenging her almost.
And you know I was in a placewhere I just I was soaking up
everything.
I had crashed my worldview withconspiracy theories.
I didn't know what to believe,but I wanted to believe it was
true.
I wanted to believe I had foundsomething that was like a
hidden gem and that I hadstumbled upon something sacred

(21:48):
and incredible.
And I, just I was in a placewhere I was really green and I
was susceptible to believingalmost anything if you can make
it make sense.

Todd (21:58):
Got it Now.
How did you go from theseonline interactions to actually
joining the group in person?

Andrew (22:04):
Yeah, good question.
So you know, I'd spent a coupleweeks with them and had just
gotten to know them really well.
You know, I had kicked myopiate addiction and I spent,
you know, 10 days no sleep,actually spent a lot of that
time in the chat room, and I gotto know them well and I had
these dreams of Amy for likethree, four, five nights in a

(22:26):
row.
After a couple of nights Iwondered if I should tell her.
I was like no, no, this is tooweird.
You don't want to tell somebodythat.
It wasn't until I had the samekind of dreams and she was still
in there for another few nightsin a row that I thought to
myself like no, okay, I have totell her, because this is just
way too crazy.
And I told her about it, shesaid oh my god, I've been

(22:48):
dreaming of you too.
And, uh, looking back andknowing her now I know that
wasn't true at all, but that wasamy when she saw an opportunity
, she jumped on it and, um, shehad seen a new guy and a shiny
new toy she wanted, and that wasme.
She said yeah, I've beendreaming of you too.
I asked her what it meant andshe says.
It means you're supposed tojoin us here with the team.

(23:09):
You know you have a big role toplay.
It's really important.
We have a place for you here.
My guides, my angels, aretelling me that you belong here
and, yeah, you have a big roleto play.
So we need you to come join theteam as fast as you can.
Something's happening reallybig, don't know what, but you
have to get here for it as fastas you can, and that was how it

(23:32):
all started so it felt greatbeing wanted.

Todd (23:35):
But now you realize she was just.
She pounced, you were prey toher right.

Andrew (23:39):
Yeah, essentially I was.
I was prey.
She saw a shiny new toy and youknow, then, while I was with
the team nine, ten months, I saw, you know, her catch that same
eye for gosh, two or three otherguys while I was there and you
know, it was just like a brokenrecord and by the time she
passed away in 2021, sheprobably had gosh, 15 different

(24:01):
men that she considered fatherGod to her mother God, and I
didn't know that's what sheintended for me.
She told me I had an importantrole to play, but I still
thought I'd just be a member ofthe team, kind of in the
background doing my thing.
And it wasn't until the secondor third day that I was there
that she told me she gave me theFather God talk, as I call it,

(24:21):
and pretty much yeah, told me,this is, this is.
You know what's planned for youand you know, head in my hands,
didn't know how to take it and,very overwhelming, I was in
shock, especially after showingup, and the first thought I had
was I made a huge mistakebecause the house was a mess.
She was in an incoherent state,it was.
It was terrible.
The very first thought I hadwhen I arrived was wow, I made a

(24:44):
mistake.
And then, just of days later,she's telling me this about
being father God.
And it was just.
I stayed overwhelmed for monthsfrom that point on.

Todd (24:54):
Yeah, so can you tell us a little bit more detail about
when you arrived at the missionhouse?
Is that?

Andrew (24:58):
what they called it, the mission house.
Yeah, yeah, they did call it themission house and I took a five
and a half hour taxi southafter arriving at denver airport
and I showed up at about 5 30am and, uh, the team I didn't
know but had been on a mushroomtrip from not that night but the
night before wow and um, we'repartying, and a bunch of them

(25:20):
had just gone to sleep.
A couple hours before I arrived, at 5.30 am it was still dark
out.
But Amy, I didn't know this atthe time, but she drank as well,
not only mushrooms, but she wasdrinking and she would hate to
go to sleep.
She would fight sleep and stayawake as long as she could and
just keep drinking.
By the time I showed up at thehouse, I took one step in.

(25:42):
I looked to the left in thekitchen.
The dishes were piled over thesink.
Nobody had cleaned the place inweeks.
It looked like a bomb had goneoff.
Ash trays overflowing withcigarettes and ashes, a layer of
dust on the table they workedfrom.
The place was a mess.

(26:07):
Amy was, with her back, turnedto me as I'm walking in and
Michael is holding her shouldersand it looked like he was just
holding her in her seat and as Icame around to actually see her
face, I realized she wascompletely drooped over.
She had drool coming out of hermouth, hitting her pants were
wet from where she had beendrooling on them.
She was totally, totallyincoherent, couldn't even greet
me, couldn't even lift her headto say hello.

(26:28):
Michael told her he saysAndrew's here, mj, and she just
let out this like muffled giggleand I thought to myself oh my
God, what am I doing here?
I just made a terrible,terrible mistake and that was
how I was introduced to the team.

Todd (26:50):
And in that book you summarized it with she's not God
, she's a drunk.

Andrew (26:55):
Yeah, pretty much that was my first thought, and I
wasn't wrong, right.

Todd (27:00):
And you had no money to escape at that point.
You were just kind of trappedat that point.

Andrew (27:06):
Yeah, it's kind of ironic because she had offered,
when she told me I had to comeright away, she had offered to
pay for my plane ticket.
And I said, no, I have enoughmoney to pay for a plane ticket
and get there.
And I had to leave my dogbehind because she essentially
said yeah, just come real fast,whatever's happening will happen
, and then you can go back foryour dog and go get your car

(27:27):
from the airport.
And once I got in there and Ididn't have money, all of a
sudden they weren't willing togive me the money for a plane
ride to go back and go get mycar, go get my dog.
So I lost my car in the airportand eventually got towed away
after a couple months.
You know, mom was freaking outlooking for the car.

(27:55):
I hadn't paid the bill and mydog, who I had no intention of
leaving behind, had to go andstay with my grandmother for
gosh.
I hadn't seen him for eightmonths almost while I was with
the team because she wouldn'tlet me go get my dog or help me
with the funding.
And it was a hard lesson andright from the start things were
not working out the way that Ithought they were going to.

(28:16):
It was definitely a challengein lots of ways that I did not
see coming.

Todd (28:20):
Right, yeah, I mean immediately you get there.
You're like this ain't right.
Yeah, something's not righthere, but you decided to stay I
did, aside from not having themoney to escape, what kept you
there?

Andrew (28:34):
The fact that it was hard to stay told me that it
felt like it was showing me thatthat's where growth was going
to come from.
I didn't go there because Ithought it was going to be easy
and fun.
I went there because I thoughtthat there would be growth there
for me and that I would findmyself, and I didn't expect that

(28:57):
to come easy.
I did know that it was going tocome in ways I didn't quite
expect, even though this was wayoff in the extreme from what I
anticipated.
I also had a few spiritualexperiences before I joined the
team, during meditation, thingsthat had never happened to me

(29:19):
before Images, seeing images inmeditation, getting messages
that were not like thoughts butlike somebody planted ideas in
your head.
It's very easy to tell if ithappens to you, but it's hard to
explain, and I heard audiblevoices and I saw an orb on the

(29:39):
beach.
This is all within two weeksbefore I joined the team and it
felt like I was being givensigns that were pointing me in
this direction and because ofthose things, they were like
fuel that convinced me to stay.
Without those, I probably wouldhave run the other way.
I might not have even joined inthe first place.

Todd (30:00):
Right.
Thanks for sharing that Nowlet's talk about the group
dynamics.
What made it a cult?

Andrew (30:07):
Oh man, you know it's so funny.
When I was first asked if Ithought it was a cult when I
joined, when the story blew upin 2021, I used to say no.
And it wasn't until I reallystarted to process things and

(30:29):
really think about it that Irealized no, this definitely was
a cult, because of the controlmechanisms, because it was a
belief system that required youbelieving it and not asking
questions, not challenging theleader.
You know Amy had control of thegroup.
What she said went.
You know, if you challenged herat all, she didn't talk to you
about it.
She wouldn't like talk youthrough the, the issues that you

(30:51):
took with the belief system andthe things that didn't make
sense.
How can you claim to be god?
You say you have no ego, yousay you're perfect, but here you
have a clearly of a drinkingproblem and when you do drink,
you spend the nights tellingstories for hours and you're
crying.
You're telling stories aboutyour childhood and you're do
drink.
You spend the nights tellingstories for hours and you're
crying.
You're telling stories aboutyour childhood and you're crying
, or you're angry, you're upset,you're, you're happy, you're

(31:13):
back and forth and it's clearthat you have issues there and
it's just.
It doesn't make sense.
And instead of having thoseconversations, if you brought
that stuff up, you were mocked,you were ridiculed, uh, you were
made to feel stupid in a waythat kind of prevented you from
wanting to ever bring it upagain and most of the team
members didn't.
It just was easier to go alongwith it.

(31:34):
So it was really those controlmechanisms and the belief
overpowering the truth and nothaving the ability to really ask
questions.
You know, those are the thingsthat convinced me that.
You know, this wasn't just, youknow, a bunch of hippies, you
know, running a website andsmoking some pot.
This was definitely a cult fromthe start because of the

(31:58):
control mechanisms and the factthat everything flowed up to the
leader.
You know, then back down againas far as control goes.

Todd (32:09):
Right, and that's not a unique scenario.
I mean, there are companiesthat operate that way, there are
churches that operate that way.
You got one person imposingtheir will on an entire
organization and there's alsomoney involved, so can you talk
about the money aspect of it?

Andrew (32:24):
Sure, so the team wasn't making a lot of money.
When I first showed up and Ishowed up with digital marketing
skills, I revamped the websites.
I built her a website just forthese spiritual healing sessions
that she was doing.
You know, she would get on thephone with people and it was
kind of like a therapy sessionwith a spiritual twist to it,

(32:46):
and she would claim to talk topeople's angels, put them on
hold and give them messages, andshe was very good at it, even
though I don't believe she wasactually speaking with anybody's
angels.
But you know, people wanted tobelieve this stuff.
You know, there's justsomething happens to people when
they crash their worldview andstart looking into conspiracy
theories and then intospirituality.

(33:08):
It's like the osmosis or theattrition of it all puts you in
this place where you startcreating your own reality based
on the things you want to betrue, because you start
believing in the subjectivenature of reality that you can
kind of.
You know your thoughts havecontrol over what's true or what
happens, and in some cases,metaphysics has proven that to

(33:31):
be true in some ways, whichdoesn't really help people who
take it too far.
And uh, when it came to money,anyway, she was doing these
spiritual healing sessions wentfrom like 1200 people a day to
the website, which is good, to Imean days.
We're hitting 40, 50 000 peoplea day.
She had months where herschedule was booked solid with

(33:55):
these spiritual healing sessions.
We were getting donations offive dollars, we were getting
donations of five thousanddollars and it was crazy, we, we
, all of a sudden we wererolling and we were making five
figures a month after just a fewmonths and suddenly money.
The more money we made, the moremoney became important to her

(34:17):
yeah, and this guy, michael,controlled all the money, right
he controlled everything thatwas legal, facing as far as
credit cards, the websiteregistration, cell phone,
internet bank accounts, anythingthat needed somebody to
actually sign up.

(34:37):
His name went on everything.
She trusted him.
He was there before everybodyafter Amarith and in the
beginning, was there beforeeverybody after Amarith and in
the beginning, and she puteverything in Michael's name and
it was no surprise to anybodythat at the end of it all he
walked away with hundreds ofthousands of dollars, because we
all saw that coming, that's forsure.

Todd (34:56):
He cashed out.
It's a story as old as time.

Andrew (34:59):
Yeah, no doubt, and I can imagine you got people out
there isolated alone.

Todd (35:02):
I can imagine you got people out there, isolated alone
, looking for something, a senseof belonging, and then they
encounter this website.

Andrew (35:10):
Man, it's easy pickings, yeah it really is and everybody
that came and joined the teamphysically.
It was the same process.
They find the website, thenthey find the chat room.
They become a regular in thechat room.
They feel that pull and thenthey come and join the team.

(35:32):
That was the path for everysingle person who had ever
joined the team.
There was no joining, there wasno other way to join the team
and everybody was pulled in thesame way.
Most people would figure it outafter a couple months and leave,
whether they were a physicalmember or just a chat room
member.
It was like you know, ourmembers were revolving door
regulars because they wouldfigure out as a bunch of bull

(35:53):
and then leave.
But the members who werephysically there wasn't so easy
because most of them had givenup all of their money, had
broken off ties with theirfamily, had left.
You know not such good terms asyou can can imagine.
Most families are not happyabout somebody who leaves and
comes and joins this cult as itappears to them, even if we
didn't believe it was a cult atthe time.

(36:15):
So it's hard to go back to yourlife.
You get stuck in this cult andthat's what happened for a lot
of people.

Todd (36:23):
And this happens in churches across the world.
You get the church, thatorganization and I'm not bagging
on churches, so don't get mewrong but it happens you end up
in a bad place where there's atoxic environment in an
organization, whether it's achurch or a company or whatever.
But that's your social fabric.
It is so difficult to breakfree from that.

(36:43):
So that's why I mean is sodifficult to break free from
that.
So that's why I mean I'mreading this book and I'm not
sitting here going, oh man,these people are.
You know, man, they should havejust left.
I'm not thinking that at allbecause I understand you can be
stuck and that is, you love thepeople that are with you too.

Andrew (36:59):
That's another thing, you know.
I mean we are all human right,so even in a cult you're going
to have great times with people,because everybody's got good
personalities.
We had lots of good moments, sothere's a lot of endearing
qualities to the people and theenvironment.
I mean it was positive in a lotof ways, but you were obviously

(37:21):
overshadowed by the fact that abelief system that was
completely delusional controlledthe bubble that you were in
that was floating further andfurther away from reality and
because you had no connectionsto the outside world, you didn't
realize how far away fromreality you had actually moved.
Yeah, and then after you arrived, more money's in, so there's

(37:43):
plenty of cash for mushrooms andall kinds of stuff, so oh yeah,
a lot, of, a lot of themushroom trips every friday
night like clockwork and it waslike work.
Um, to the point where, youknow, guys would say on friday
morning they'd try to say Idon't think I'm gonna be doing
it tonight.
You know, try to get ahead ofthe curve would be the first one

(38:03):
to say I'm not doing it.
So like nobody else can say, oh, I'm not doing it.
So like nobody else can say oh,I'm not doing it tonight.
Because it just it became likelike work and it really was.
It was like work with themushrooms it did for for a while
it just it felt like, you know,you had no choice but to do
what you were told.
It was just easier to go alongthan it was to stand up and

(38:27):
challenge and become that targetand open yourself up to all the
ridicule, being laughed at,being mocked, being singled out.
It was just easier to keep yourmouth shut and enjoy the good
times and not try to right theship.
At first that's kind of thepath that I was on, and then at

(38:47):
some point things changed and Itook a completely different
stance.

Todd (38:54):
Now you had a relationship with Amy.
Can you share a bit about that?

Andrew (38:59):
Yeah, sure, when she gave me that Father God talk on
my second or third day there,telling me that I was supposed
to become father god and all ofthis, you know, she sent me into
shock.
But, um, after a couple minutesof giving me that talk, she,
she went to leave the room tolet me kind of gather myself and
she gets to the door and sheturns around and she says, oh,

(39:22):
when you're ready to make love,let me know.
And then shuts the door behindher and leaves like, just just
flat, like that, no laugh, nogiggle, no smile, just.
And I thought to myself, oh mygod, that hit me like a ton of
bricks, just as hard as thewhole father god thing, because
I I had no intentions of goingthere and having a relationship
with her and it scared me, I wasterrified.

(39:44):
I had no attraction to her likethat and I didn't want any part
of it.
And I thought to myself I don'tknow what to do.
And it just it felt like somuch pressure that I said to
myself you know, in for a penny,in for a pound.
Maybe I justified it by tellingmyself, maybe I'm being

(40:06):
challenged to overcome mysuperficial needs for how
somebody looks or what I lookfor in a girl or a match or a
mate.
Maybe I'm being challenged tofocus on the person inside and
that's how I justified it tomyself and I kind of bit the
bullet and it took time for meto really get comfortable in a
relationship with her.
But eventually I grew to careabout her very much and it

(40:29):
wasn't more than I don't know aweek that I was there, that you
know we had become I guess youcould say an item, a couple, and
you know we were sharing abedroom.
I wasn't sleeping upstairs withthe guys or, you know, on one
of the blow-up mattresses oranything.
I was next to her.
It was her and me kind ofrunning the show.

(40:50):
Nobody questioned that she wasin charge, but you know I was.
I was a leader of the group allof a sudden and I was expected
to be on all the videos and takea much larger role, all the
while being in a relationshipwith her, and we grew very close
over.
You know it ended up being awhole year from start to all the

(41:11):
way.

Todd (41:11):
at the end it was about a year and we grew very close,
right, very close you said youwere very kind to amy through
this, so I I appreciate how youtreated that in the book.

Andrew (41:21):
So I appreciate that I I appreciate you mentioned it
means a lot to me that that yourecognize that I really set out
not to not to do her any favorsin particular, but to tell the
truth, which is a human story,and she, at the end of the day,
she wasn't God, but she was aperson with issues, with damage

(41:41):
that never really gotten, thatnever really got you know, taken
care of or focused on, andthat's the tragedy of it all.
But at the end of the day, shehad great moments, she was a
great person to be aroundsometimes and I wanted to show
that side of her because I feltlike all anybody knew was this
crazy, angry, wild.

(42:02):
I am God side of her that madea caricature of her and I wanted
people to get a better, moreholistic view.

Todd (42:11):
Right, she was human.
So I appreciate that.
Now, at some point now let'sswitch gears.
Talk about how you exposed thetruth.
Now you realize things aren'tright from day one.
You're trying to make changes,but there was a major event that
happened that really tipped thescales for you.
Can you talk about that?

Andrew (42:30):
Yeah, sure.
So we had a team member whocreated an incredible hoax that
went on for months for the teamhe created.
He used his skills, which wereconsiderable, in software and
computer knowledge, to pretendto be these fake beings who
joined our chat room, five orsix of them talking in unison in

(42:51):
ways that one person couldn'tdo.
I mean all starting, ending,continuing, finishing each
other's sentences, talking inunison, saying things that were
very spiritually based, claimingto be from, as I said, another
galaxy.
And they created this.
He created this ruse.
That was just so incredible.
He also made fake team membersor people who joined the chat

(43:14):
room and, like one lady I wrotein the book, you know, had this
issue where her mother hadpassed away and her husband had
lost his job.
They were losing everything.
The mother's will was thesaving grace, but the mom had
died and not told anybody aboutit and she was freaking out,
asking these beings in chat ifthey could help, and they were
like, oh yeah, it's upstairs,under the mat, under the

(43:36):
floorboards, you'll find a box.
Open it up and you'll find thewill.
This lady leaves chat.
I remember being in the room.
We're all looking at each otherlike, okay, we're not gonna see
this person ever come backagain.
Whoever these weird beings arethat are claiming to be so
spiritual in our chat whoeverthis is that's doing this is
obviously, you know, kind ofouted themselves when this lady

(43:56):
doesn't come back and um 15minutes later, this lady shows
back up in the chat room andsays oh my god, you were right,
you found it.
The the will was there whereyou said it was.
My family is saved.
We're going to be able to, youknow, get my mother's house and
all the things that she left forus.
This is so incredible and ourchat room exploded.

(44:17):
We went from 30 people a nightto literally 250 300 people
coming into our chat roomexploded.
We went from 30 people a nightto literally 250, 300 people
coming into our chat room to seethese beings.
When word of this got out thewhole time, we had a team member
in the corner of our room whowas doing all of this.
He was making all of these fakenames and doing all of this and
he essentially took control ofthe team by claiming that these

(44:43):
beings were supposed to help amylead humanity into this golden
age, this awakening which wewere all working towards.
Amy's guides said oh yeah,they're legit.
She went into meditation, cameback out.
Yes, this is really happening.
We're supposed to follow whatthey say.
Well, these beings elevated thisone person to the team healer.

(45:06):
Next thing I know he's supposedto be a trine, not just me and
amy in a relationship, but he'slike the third wheel, like it's
supposed to be a triangle.
He has a big role to play.
It's not just andrew or FatherGod and Mother God, it's Horace
now too, and I have to figureout a way to make space for him
in our relationship.
He is taking her into healingsessions every night when she is

(45:29):
plastered, and then I'm hearingmoaning coming out of those
healing sessions and I'm askingher about it and she's telling
me it's all in my head.
All of this he had created as arose to elevate himself, to get
her alone, to take advantage ofher sexually.
It was the sickest, mostincredible hoax.
And you know, really I hadnever seen anything on the scale

(45:54):
and effort it took him to pullthis off, wow, and it took
months.
But I eventually started torealize some things wasn't right
and I started saving thetranscripts so that I could go
back and check things they say.
And then one thing led toanother and I just I came to

(46:15):
realize it was this person inthe corner of our room and I had
set, I had been setting him upand watching him, I was
challenging them and watchinghis body language and I had
enough.
It's in the book.
But I had enough information tosay, yeah, 100, this is him
doing this and I can prove it.
And, um, I eventually uncoveredthat and it was it.

(46:39):
When I did figure it out, itkind of hit me all in one moment
all the lying, the deception,the her telling me she wasn't
having sex with him, all of thelies, the gaslighting,
everything.
It just became clear.
And there's one moment, likebeing struck by lightning, and
it was in that moment where Isaid enough, and somebody needs

(47:00):
to take a hold of what'shappening here, because this is
getting out of hand.
And that's when I committedmyself to absolutely destroying
the mother god persona and thedelusion and doing my best to
snap Amy out of it and bring thetruth back to our group and
snap us back into reality.

Todd (47:22):
Yeah, good on you, man.
So Amy knows the truth at thispoint.
But then she and Michael gettogether, and then what happens?

Andrew (47:31):
So, yeah, I was able to eventually convince her to the
point where she went outside andhad a talk with KG and kicked
him out of the house and kg.

Todd (47:39):
Is the guy who committed the hoax or carried it out?

Andrew (47:43):
correct and kicked him out of the house and didn't want
to believe it and had a talkwith michael.
Didn't want to believe it butobviously it was at this point
there was no denying it.
You know kg was gone and sowere these beings.
Suddenly they didn't show up inchat anymore and you know there
was no denying it.
But she had talked with michaelfor a few minutes privately and

(48:04):
came out and said to me infront of the whole team that
they had decided, her andmichael, that we weren't going
to tell any of the people whofollowed us in the chat room or
any of our followers about this,that it was going to get swept
under the rug and kept quietbecause it exposed amy for not

(48:24):
being mother.
God, her guides that said thatthey were real.
You know for months, all of herguides and all of these powers
that she has, you know beingpsychic in these ways and
everything was shattered by thishoax.
You know being found out and Iwas given the ultimatum to keep
my mouth shut or leave, andespecially in front of the team.

(48:48):
And you know for me that wasn'teven a choice, it was.
You know I had committed to thetruth and you know it wasn't
going to be a sellout and Ilooked at them both and I kind
of laughed at at them andbecause I pitied them in that
moment right they were making,they're finally making the
conscious decision to chooselies and deceit and betrayal of

(49:09):
their followers instead of, likethis, awakening and support
light love, which is what we allhad shown up on this.
That's what I thought we werehere for.
And uh, now you're telling meyou're making a conscious
decision to do the opposite.
I'm not having it.
I walked over to the laptop, Ityped it all out, I pressed send
and I looked at her.
I said you do what you got todo, but now it's too late, it's

(49:32):
out there.
And, um, that was it.
I, I didn't get kicked out, shedidn't want to let me go so
easily.
But uh, yeah, that that was themoment.
That was one of the big forksin the road where she made that
choice to take things in thatdirection.

Todd (49:50):
And one thing that struck me from the book is that after
this happened, you knew thetruth and you were like I'm no
longer participating in thedelusion, and this speaks highly
of you, because you continuedto care for Amy physically as
you try to talk her out of thedelusion.
So what was going on there?

Andrew (50:07):
Yeah, that was a tough one for me.
In that moment, when I firstwas able to uncover this hoax, I
got her to admit that shewasn't God, motherlosing God.
You know, she had this momentwhere she spent about five, ten
minutes crying, sobbing lightlyto me and admitting everything
and saying that she believedwhat I was saying, which was

(50:34):
that, you know, you don't haveto be Mother God to do amazing
things, to have a great effecton the world.
You know all these people thatfollow you, they would follow
you without the name or thetitle.
You don't have to pretend to bemother god to be able to do all
these great things.
And she was buying it and Icould see, you know, starting to
crack through the defenses alittle bit and it gave me hope,

(50:55):
even though five minutes withmichael and she reeled her right
back in and she was mother Godagain.
It was like all the work I haddone was just gone out the
window.
But, you know, I committedmyself to really trying to snap
her out of that delusion and Iswore I was going to be able to
do it and I thought I was andeventually, you know, I had to

(51:16):
admit defeat in that sense,because she didn't, she didn't
want to change right and then,eventually, you decided that
it's time to go.

Todd (51:24):
So can you talk about the, the day you left?

Andrew (51:27):
yeah, it all happened because she had obviously found
a new father god.
I couldn't be father godanymore because I didn't believe
, uh.
So.
So somebody else had to fill inthe role, and you know whoever
the father God was, somebodythat she started to feel
attraction towards, and we hadbeen in a relationship for nine
months.
And now I'm watching hersnuggle up to this guy in front

(51:50):
of me, in front of the wholeteam, even though she told me
he's going to be father God, butyou and I we're going to stay
in a relationship and I'm notgoing to have any physical
relationship with him, but he'sgoing to carry the role of
Father God is what sheessentially told me, and I knew
that was a bunch of BS, but, youknow, I was partly attached and

(52:12):
partly didn't want to leave herbehind.
I thought I was going to beable to make it work.
She had disappeared with him acouple of times and didn't come
back till the next day, and itwas just too much.
And that's when I said you know, despite everything, this is
just not an experience I want tohave.
Like, literally in front of myeyes, watch my girl with another

(52:32):
man, and I don't want toexperience this.
So that's when I made mydecision to leave and I left the
house and love not in you knowa bad way, like most people who
left usually blew up you're notmother, god.
Blah, blah, blah, you knowfighting and leave.
I didn't leave like that.
Uh, hugged, everybody saidgoodbye.

(52:53):
The new father god even gave mehis car.
He wanted me gone so bad.
Then he gave me his car toleave.
He had liquidated his 401k, hehad sold his home, following her
advice, because she told himthat getting rid of his ego
would help him become Father God.
And you know, getting rid ofhis wealth and donating it to

(53:16):
her, to love, to the movement,was what would help him dissolve
his ego by not holding on tohis physical wealth.
I had warned this guy a milliontimes and tried to stop it and
it was like talking to thehappiest brick wall in all of
creation and he didn't want tohear it.
He wanted the role.
So, yeah, he gave me his carbecause him and michael, who

(53:37):
were buddies at that point, theywere like, yeah, let andrew go,
we're more than happy to seehim leave because I was a
problem for the belief system tocontinue.

Todd (53:48):
Yeah, dude, that happens so often.
And then you're castigated.
I don't know if this happened,but, generally speaking, when
this happens in these groupspeople that decide to leave or
if they're kicked out, they'recastigated after the fact.
Well, he wasn't a true believer, you know he was.
He was doing this, and you'rediagnosed with some issue.
Everybody becomes a demon.

(54:09):
Yeah.

Andrew (54:10):
And Amy, she would.
She would give everybody ademonic name.
She would say that you know,the demon took them over.
They were an angel or they were, you know, this ascended master
, but now they're a demonbecause they gave in to the dark
side Wow, because they don'tbelieve anymore.
That's.
That was the same thing foreverybody who ever left.
You know that's what she woulddo, just like you said.

(54:31):
Anyway, I left the team.
I had my dog with me at thatpoint, so we got in Bill's car,
which was now my car, andstarted driving.
We were going to FortLauderdale where my dad had been
living at the time.
I was super excited and a veryhappy place.
I felt like I had accomplisheda lot.
I remember going down the road,so happy, wishing people would
just look at me going down theroad, just so I could smile and

(54:54):
wave.
I felt like I had conquered theworld.
At that point I didn't feel badabout leaving the world.
At that point, you know, Ididn't feel bad about leaving.
I felt like I had really foundmyself and for fighting against
the belief system and you knowthe truth and all of that kind
of stuff, and you know, I wasproud of myself.
I really was Little did I know.
After about two weeks, after Igot to Florida, amy messaged me

(55:15):
and said oh, the angels told meI'm being guided to come your
direction, to come be with you.
And she left the whole teambehind, promising me she was
going to snap out of thedelusion, I had some rules about
moving in a new direction andshe was down with all of it.
Yes, you're right, I'm comingto live with you.
We'll leave it behind.
No, talking to Michael, we'regoing to take this in a new

(55:38):
direction.
The team dissolved back inCalifornia.
She joined me in FortLauderdale and it lasted about
two months before I realized shewas just giving me lip service.
The whole time I thought,having her alone, away from the
team, isolated in that way, justthe way I was isolated from
reality, now I could isolate herin reality and hopefully get

(56:01):
through to Amy and snap her outof it.
Unfortunately it didn't work,but I tried.

Todd (56:08):
What it says is you've really got game with the ladies.
That's what I'm saying, yeah.

Andrew (56:15):
You know what can I say?
I had no idea I was going to bein a relationship like that
with her.
Like I told you, I didn't wantit when it started, but it
really became.
She became somebody I caredabout very much and when it
comes to people who have had abig effect on my life, she is up
there near the top no doubtabout it.

Todd (56:37):
Yeah, yeah, so Andrew's next book is going to be on how
to develop your game with theladies.

Andrew (56:42):
I'm kidding totally yeah , I'll have to work on my game a
little bit more before I'mwilling to write a book on that,
but things, things worked outwith her in a good way and even
after we broke up, she, shetried to get me back for a
little while, to the point whereit came almost like uh,
stalking meing me.
I was getting things in mymailbox, messages from her,

(57:03):
people were knocking on my door,people were messaging me asking
me to come back, but she wantedme to come back to that belief
system and I wasn't going inthat direction.

Todd (57:13):
Game over at that point, yeah, yeah.
So I want to read another quotefrom your book here.
You said this about Amy.
You said to truly understandher is to understand when
unhealed trauma wears a crown,when a person's pain masquerades
as something divine and no onearound them dares to say
otherwise.
Then you go on to say that'snot just her story, it's the

(57:34):
cautionary tale beneath all ofthis.
Imagine trying to live up tothat as a person with a drinking
problem and unresolved trauma.
Dude, that hit home with me,man.
And you're looking past all ofthe outward things to the heart
of the person, man.
So I appreciate you doing that.
So when I said you were beingkind to her, I appreciate that,

(57:54):
man, it's true.

Andrew (57:56):
Thank you I appreciate that and you know I'm glad to
hear that you picked up on thatand that means other people will
too, because that was, that wasthe intention and that's really
what I wanted to get to.
And you know I've got.

(58:23):
I've come to this place whereI've learned in life that you
know, especially after you knowI dealt with cancer as I wrote
in a book in the last few years,I realized, you know, we're all
human, we all make mistakes.
It's not her fault that youknow things happen to her.
It was her responsibility todeal with them and to transform
them.
Yes, but I don't hate orbegrudge her for the mistakes
she made.
I really do believe that shewas well-intentioned and she
believed.
I never caught on to the factthat she was outwardly lying

(58:45):
about it, even if she had somuch proof in her face staring
at her.
For some reason something justwasn't clicking for her and I
just I have learned to allowpeople this space to be human
and has really made life easierand has allowed me to accept
myself, to accept other peopleand even Amy, for all that she

(59:08):
had done wrong and all themistakes she had made and all
the bad things you can say in mylife, she has had an incredibly
positive influence, even thoughit was not in the way she
intended had an incrediblypositive influence, even though
it was not in the way sheintended.

Todd (59:25):
Man, I appreciate that perspective.
Dude, you found yourselfthrough all of this, and so my
perspective is that good thingsthey emerged for you in the
aftermath of all of this.
Can you talk about that?
I think you used the phrase anunraveling of your worldview.
What grew?

Andrew (59:37):
out of that.
Yeah, and that's essentiallywhere it started was with a
blank slate.
You know, after theseconspiracy theories crashed my
old worldview, she came in andsaid here I'll build you a new
one.
And then I had to crash thatone, in that moment where I felt
like I was struck by lightningwhen I uncovered the hoax,
that's when my worldview gotcrashed again and I, this time,

(59:57):
I built it myself on truth, onreality, on actuality, on love,
on real love, not the fake loveshe was teaching me.
But the difference between thatand what real love was Just had
to square a couple circles, Iguess, with the reality, the
belief system that I was given.

(01:00:18):
And it took some time and, likeI had told you earlier, it
wasn't until I wrote the bookthat I really processed a lot of
this.
You know some, some things thatI thought I had dealt with.
I realized that I hadn't untilI started writing the book.
And even in this moment youknow I don't say I'm done or
I've transformed, I've processedyou know, I'm still seeking to

(01:00:39):
overcome, I'm still seeking tobe that person I want to be.
I don't know if that journeyever ends for us, but I can say
that I'm happy with where I amand the progress that I'm making
.

Todd (01:00:51):
And you also trained jujitsu.
Yeah, so yeah.

Andrew (01:00:54):
Fun times that was awesome.
That was awesome.
Fort Lauderdale amazing schoolreally good time.
I suggest it for anybody.
Have you ever done anythinglike that?

Todd (01:01:03):
yeah, I trained jujitsu for about five years and, uh, I
read in the last few months Ihad to stop back injuries and
stuff.
I was not a good trainingpartner because I just couldn't
move.
So it was yeah, I just had topeel off there's.

Andrew (01:01:17):
There's a lot of movement, definitely in jujitsu.
You know being able to move isimportant and you know I keep
telling myself that I'd like toget back into.
They have a school not too farfrom here that has a similar
curriculum to what I learned,but that became a really
positive influence in my life,especially in the days
immediately following leavingthe team.

(01:01:38):
You know it was really good forme to get involved with that.

Todd (01:01:42):
I was listening to the Jocko podcast years and years
ago and he kept talking abouthow good jujitsu was for you and
I decided to try it out, so I'mglad I did.
Man, it's so hard and youprogress so slowly because the
movements are just not natural,so I enjoyed it.
I was a blue belt after fiveyears and I had to peel off.

Andrew (01:02:04):
So I missed it, but I'm glad I did it.
It's like a sport mixed withscience, and trying to learn and
reteach your body to react tothings in almost the opposite
way that you would think.
And you're right, you say itwell.
It's something that takes.
It's a slow thing to learn, ittakes a lot of effort, but I

(01:02:27):
found it rewarding, as you did.
But yeah, it's not easy, that'sfor sure.
It's humbling.

Todd (01:02:33):
I mean, I'm 6'1" and I'm not light, I'm pretty thick and
these little dudes would justthrash me man.

Andrew (01:02:43):
So that's the amazing thing about it.
You know the Gracies who putJiu-Jitsu together and you know
I was blessed enough to betraining with the Valentes, who
is the family that grew up withthe Gracie family.
They are in Fort Lauderdale inMiami is where their home base
is, and I was blessed enough tobe in this world-class school.
You know these guys were theroots of Jiu-Jitsu's creation.

(01:03:05):
You know, growing up with HelioGracie and the curriculum was
just so incredible.
I enjoyed it so much.
You know, if I could, I wouldmove back there just for this
school in a heartbeat because Ienjoyed it so much.
But you know, it was a reallypositive influence in my life
when I needed something likethat to really fill the void and
it really did.

(01:03:26):
It was amazing.

Todd (01:03:28):
Dude, it just builds so much character and you connected
with people and you just leavea training session just like
completely drained and you'rejust connected with people.
Man, I just I loved it.

Andrew (01:03:39):
Man, I miss it, but uh there's a humility that it that
it definitely brings.
As you said, you know you haveto be humble.
It's not about strength, it'sabout technique and skill and,
um, it really is a humbling uhsport.
And the most amazing thing wasthe people who learned jujitsu
and become dangerous also becomethe least likely to ever use it

(01:04:03):
against somebody, and it'sreally interesting.
You realize how incrediblydangerous it can be and you just
never want to hurt somebody.

Todd (01:04:14):
Yeah, and the reason I never tried martial arts is
because I had a misconceptionabout all of this stuff.
I thought it would be like Iwas in the Marines and so I
considered it would be like themilitary where, okay, you're
going to get made fun of andthey're just going to berate you
and all this stuff and peopleare going to be mean and all.
It was dude.
It was the nicest people, man,and just the most unassuming
people had these skills and so Idon't mess with anybody man,

(01:04:37):
not that I ever did, but onething I learned was don't mess
with anyone because they mayknow something and have been
training.
Yeah.

Andrew (01:04:45):
So you see, you're getting to.
You know fisticuffs or somescuffle with somebody and they
step back and stand in a certainway.
All of a sudden you're going torealize you're about to be in a
world of hurt.
Yes, let me read this, buthopefully nobody listening.
None of us ever have to findourselves in that situation.
Hopefully it's all good vibesfor everybody yeah, yeah.

Todd (01:05:09):
Now your jujitsu journey was, uh, thwarted by stage four
cancer.
Can?

Andrew (01:05:14):
you tell us about that yeah, um, I was having I thought
I had a bad leg day at the gym.
I started having pain in myside and my my legs and I
thought it was from the caraccident.
It was nothing new to get painsthat.
That got pretty rough for a fewdays and a few days turned into
a week, turned into a coupleweeks.

(01:05:35):
All of a sudden I'm starting tolose sleep because the pain is
so bad.
And when it comes to pain I cansuck it up.
But this pain was bad.
I started going to anorthopedist and here I am
worried, being an ecstatic.
This kid's just looking forpills.
We were not seeing anythingwrong.
Took an x-ray.
I don't see anything wrong withyour bones.

(01:05:55):
Can't figure it out.
Here's some physical therapy.
Physical therapy is making thepain worse.
Eventually, one night, twoo'clock in the morning, I drive
myself to the er because I couldhardly stand.
My legs were on fire.
I crawled to the front desk.
I mean sweating.
I don't know how I made it tothat front desk and I said
something's really wrong with me.

(01:06:15):
I need help.
I don't know what it is.
They gave me a scan and ladycame in the room some guy with
her because surely she didn'twant to break that news to me
alone.
She needed somebody to supporther wow and she said andrew, I'm
sorry but I have really reallybad news.
You have a late and aggressivestage four testicular cancer.

(01:06:36):
Uh, it's not the pain youthought it was and I'm sorry,
but it's already in your lungs.
It's spread to your back, byyour kidney, your pelvis.
You need to remove one of yourtesticles immediately and, yeah,
you're gonna have to get intochemo as fast as you possibly
can.
But I sit here.

(01:06:57):
That was december of 2022.
I sit here right now, 19 or 20months at this point, completely
cancer free oh, not inremission, but cancer free.
I had the only cancer that iscurable in stage four wow, oh,
man, that's, and I went I wentto new jersey to memorial

(01:07:19):
sloan-kettering cancer centerworld class, uh, best in the
world, the coast of home whereI'm from, not here in tennessee
and they, the first four roundsof chemo, didn't do it.
Then I went and did four roundsof high dose chemotherapy.
About five months later it came, with a lot of downsides, but
it cleared me of the cancer anduh, now I I eat real healthy, I

(01:07:42):
do everything I can to keep itat bay and uh, knock on wood,
pray to god that it, it doesn't,it doesn't ever come back oh
man, that's great news.
Man, I'm glad you made it it'sbeen a heck of a ride.
It wasn't fun.
That is an experience that,while I don't wish it on anybody
again when it comes to you knowmaking lemonade out of lemons,

(01:08:07):
you know it taught me a lotabout life myself and it
certainly brought me closer toGod.
Nobody should face theirmortality at a young age.
But for what I've learned I'mgrateful.
But yeah, heck of a road.
It's been a heck of a road.
In my 40 years I feel like I'vealready lived a lifetime.
Wow, man, what a great story.
So yeah, that of a road, it'sbeen a heck of a road.
In my 40 years I feel like I'vealready lived a lifetime.

Todd (01:08:21):
Wow, man, what a great story.
So, yeah, that's a good placeto end it.
Man, you wrapped it up quitenicely for us, so thank you for
those takeaways.

Andrew (01:08:30):
Well, I appreciate it Really.
It means a lot to me what youtook away from the book.
It really means a lot to methat the important things to me
were conveyed through the bookand you've confirmed that.
So thank you.

Todd (01:08:42):
Yeah, it was deep man.
I enjoyed it, so I'll put alink in the description.
I'll put one of my affiliatelinks for Andrew's memoir.
It's called the War on Love, soif you want to support the
channel, you can buy there.
Or I'll also include links toAndrew's website,
thewaronlovecom.
You can buy the book there andthen I'll include links to

(01:09:03):
Andrew's socials.
So appreciate it, andrew man, Ireally I'm thankful for this
conversation, brother, thankfulfor the book, dude.

Andrew (01:09:10):
So Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
And to the listeners, thank youfor listening.
I wish everybody the best.
Thank you so much.
It's been a pleasure.

Todd (01:09:18):
Awesome.
So thanks for listening to theCluttered Path.
If you liked this episode,please consider leaving us a
review.
We read every one of those.
We appreciate your support andwe'll talk soon.
Have a great day.
Stories about life.
Let's get it for tonight.