September 24, 2025 • 58 mins
What happens when you achieve everything society says will make you happy, only to discover it's left you feeling empty? Ray Martin, award-winning business leader turned nomadic explorer, discovered that his greatest achievement wasn't building a successful company — it was finding the courage to walk away from it all and build something better.
In this transformative conversation, Ray reveals how a planned six-month sabbatical unexpectedly turned into a 14-year journey living out of nothing but a backpack. After winning "Business Leader of the Year" at 42, Ray faced a series of personal crises — divorce, his father's death, and having to sell his company — that forced him to confront the uncomfortable truth that he was "living someone else's life." What followed was a remarkable odyssey of self-discovery across Asia that completely transformed his relationship with success, purpose, and happiness.
The turning point came during a 10-day silent meditation retreat in a Buddhist monastery, where Ray experienced a profound mental shift that allowed him to separate himself from the constant "noise" of his thinking mind. This newfound clarity inspired him to train for marathons, eventually completing five (including New York) and raising approximately $50,000 for causes including elephant sanctuaries and Nepalese orphanages.
Ray shares practical wisdom about using what he calls "confirmation signals" to navigate life decisions, creating a personal dashboard of values, vision, and purpose, and the crucial shift from an outside-in to inside-out orientation to happiness. His journey illustrates that true fulfillment comes not from external achievements but from aligning our actions with our deepest values.
Whether you're feeling trapped in your career, questioning your path, or simply curious about alternative approaches to finding meaning, Ray's story offers both inspiration and practical guidance for anyone brave enough to pursue their authentic path. Connect with Ray through his book "Life Without a Tie" or find him on LinkedIn to learn more about his extraordinary journey.
Connect With Ray:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/coachraymartin/
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Resources from This Episode:
Life Without a Tie: https://amzn.to/4oyfMBE
The Inside Out Revolution: https://amzn.to/4nz2EuS
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Todd (00:00):
This is the Cluttered Path , a compass for midlife.
You can achieve everythingsociety tells you to want
Success, money, admiration butyou can still feel completely
empty inside.
Here's what most successstories don't tell you.
(00:22):
Sometimes, the only way to findhappiness is to rid yourself of
the outward trappings ofsuccess.
Because the man we'll meettoday he won it all, but he
discovered his greatestachievement was really just
learning to live with nothingbut what he carried in a
backpack, while finding more joythan he ever expected.
His name is Ray Martin, alsoknown as the Daily Explorer.
He's an entrepreneur, anaward-winning business leader,
(00:45):
coach, mentor, speaker, amongmany other things, and his
mission in life is to reallyempower people to live
authentically and bring more joyand happiness to the world.
Ray, welcome to the show.
Ray (00:56):
Oh, what a lovely introduction.
Thank you so much, todd, that'sbrilliant.
Todd (01:00):
Oh, no worries.
So Ray's in the UK and I justwanted to tell you, ray, I
visited Uxbridge, outside ofLondon, for about 10 days, yeah,
okay, and I had a really goodtime.
It was the company I worked for.
We had something going on inthe area, so I was there for 10
days.
Yeah.
And really just enjoyedinteracting with the British
people.
Ray (01:20):
I'm glad to hear it people.
Todd (01:22):
It was nice.
Just a couple of things.
One what I really liked aboutthis group is every day they all
brought their lunches and theyall ate lunch in the common area
.
Ray (01:33):
Okay yeah, that's quite a popular thing in British
companies.
Todd (01:37):
I like that.
For me it was like, okay, thisis cool.
And then there was a lady therewho she said, todd, I'm going
to make you a proper cup ofBritish tea.
And I said, ok, cool.
So, yeah, very pleasant people.
But yeah, I really enjoyed mytrip there.
Yeah, super OK.
Well, let's get started.
So can you tell us where youwere born and about your
(01:58):
childhood?
Ray (01:59):
Yeah, I was born in a tiny, tiny little town on the
outskirts of London calledWellingarden City and it was a
typical little suburb thatsprung up in the 60s to meet the
sort of housing crisis incentral London which had been
bombed during the war and stufflike that.
And my parents were from thebombed part of London and so
they wanted to move out andcreate a bright new future for
(02:22):
their family that had juststarted.
I've got an older brother.
He was one year old.
They moved out to wellinggarden city and I was born in
welling garden city just about ayear after they arrived.
I went to school there and it'sa.
It's the kind of place that Iwould think there's many places
in america like it.
You kind of small town.
You grow up there, meet yourpartner, life probably when
(02:45):
you're there and have yourchildren there and never leave.
That's one life story off theshelf.
Or you finish your schoolingand then you just leave and you
never come back.
It's probably one or the otherof those, maybe some shades, but
mostly I'd say it was that, andfor me it was the second one,
because I really was excitedabout the idea of moving to
(03:05):
London and getting involved incommerce and the whole
razzmatazz of that kind of busyworld, and I really was excited
about that.
So I had to leave WellingGarden City, which I did when I
was about 17.
Todd (03:18):
Yeah, I did the same.
It was a small town in Georgiahere in the States and it was
like I just ended up leaving,never went back.
Yeah, Interesting, but uh.
So what activities did youenjoy as a teen?
Ray (03:32):
Oh yeah, definitely sports.
I, I love.
I love playing football, um, uh, any kind of sports, actually,
you know the preferred one.
And watching and playing, lovedmovies, uh, loved reading.
I love making models and kits,which I used to do, and my
brother and I, um, were veryavid, I'm sorry, very nerdy, but
(03:55):
we were really enjoying calledaircraft spotting in in america,
in england, I don't know whatthey call it america you're
basically fascinated byairplanes and you go to
airfields to see the airplanesand you make a note of their
registration numbers, becausethere were books that contain
all the registrations and youcan collect the registration
numbers until you've seen, gotthem all, you know and wow.
(04:17):
So we would sit at heathrowduring our school holidays for
the whole day with ourbinoculars watching, watching
airplanes land and take off.
We loved it.
My brother actually,incidentally, became an airline
pilot.
That's what he did for his work, his career, so he was really
loving that.
So that's some of the things.
Todd (04:36):
Yeah, when I was a kid, in sixth grade, we took a field
trip to an Air Force base in thearea and we saw these F-15s and
all this stuff.
So that was I wanted to be apilot.
That was my plan at 18 yearsold.
I'm going to go to the military, I'm going to do this, I don't
know be a pilot.
Once I got in the military andI saw how much the pilots had to
work, I was like no thanks.
Ray (05:00):
Yeah, I mean I don't know if you know the place, but when
a davis montham at tucson inarizona okay, the airplane
boneyard or graveyard, I thinkthey call it I know and I really
wanted to go there and you cango there and go on a tour, and
which I did and it was amazingbecause there's about two and a
half thousand or three thousandaircraft parked and all boarded
up in the desert there so theydon't rust or deteriorate, but
(05:22):
wow, what an amazing, incredible.
It was like something out of asteven spielberg movie.
It was really extraordinary.
Yeah, that's real weird.
Todd (05:30):
Yeah, that is cool.
That's interesting, man.
Something just popped into myhead when I was in england, in
uxbridge.
There we were out at dinner onenight and um talking to one of
the british colleagues and hetold he was talking about his
house and he's like somehow itcame up that it was built in the
year 1099.
And I'm like your house isolder than my country.
Ray (05:50):
Yeah right, 1099, that's nearly a thousand several
hundred years old.
Todd (05:59):
It was surreal.
That was very interesting.
Okay, so what did you pursueafter secondary school and for
Americans, that's high school?
Ray (06:07):
Yeah, we had the option of going to do two more years of
study at school they call thatA-levels in England and then if
you did that, you had the optionto then go on to university,
which is, I'd say, the mostpeople did that.
But you know, I had a visionwhen I was a child Like when I
was 10 or 11, something didn'tmake sense to me about law, and
(06:28):
I was growing up in the 60s, sothe thinking has changed
massively since then.
So this doesn't really applynow.
But when I was in the 60s, whatI saw were adults who worked
mostly in one company theirwhole life and they worked
really long hours and reallyhard in order to retire and get
their pension so they couldstart really living the life
they wanted.
But most of them died withintwo, three, four years of
(06:51):
retiring and it just never madesense to me as a child that that
would be your life, and I usedto say sometimes to one or two
teachers and certainly to myclassmates that doesn't make any
sense to me.
Why do people do that?
What is that what we'resupposed to do?
And they said, well, what's,what's the alternative?
And I was only 10 or 11 I'd saywell, you know what I'm gonna
(07:12):
do as a young kid.
I'm gonna just get a job whereI can earn twice as much money
in the first half and then havethe second half of my life saved
from 40 onwards, to go andtravel and play.
And that's what I'm going to do.
And they say, oh, how are yougoing to do that?
I said I don't know.
I'm only 10, I have no ideawhat I was talking about, but I
(07:33):
had this thinking as a kid andthen I totally forgot about it.
But it came back to me when Iyou know, later on in my life,
when I got divorced and my daddied and that led to me taking
the journey that I've writtenabout in my book.
That then became.
I went oh my goodness, I forgotwhat I'd said.
It was as if it silently shapedmy life journey in the
(07:56):
background, without evenconsciously realizing it.
Todd (07:59):
Excellent, yeah, and it's not an unrealistic goal work and
save money and build up so youcan retire early.
Ray (08:07):
But that's an adult's logic and that is rational and that's
great.
But I wasn't an adult and Iwasn't rational.
I was just saying it because itdidn't make any sense to just
spend your whole life doing onething and then die.
Todd (08:21):
Right, and I think most people feel that way and then
die Right and we, I think mostpeople feel that way.
But, and strangely, now and nowand today, you can get let go
from a company, especially herein the States and everywhere.
You know, yeah, you just youthink you're going to work
someplace.
You have it, you know, I'mgoing to, I'm going to be here
until I retire.
Ray (08:36):
No, Then they let you go and it's yeah, it's yeah.
That psychological contract hasbeen ripped up for at least a
decade now.
Todd (08:49):
It has.
And then when I was in mymid-30s I've been in the tech
industry for my whole career andjust in my mid-30s I started
seeing my colleagues.
They would hit their 50s Rightand they would get laid off.
And it was to me that was like,I'm not going to.
Ray (09:22):
And here's the devastating tragic thing is a lot of them
just didn't have any money, sothey would end up losing
everything and then they can'tfind another job because of
their age.
And it was yeah.
So I saw that and it was like Idon't want that for myself, so
it's time to save money.
But yeah, so when did youbecome an entrepreneur?
Yeah, I did.
I actually because of thatthinking as a child, you know,
when I was 16 and my educationcome to an end, I didn't want to
continue with further education.
I wanted to get into the worldof creation and work and
business and start learningstraight away about business,
and so I took a job at 16.
I worked for one of the bigbanks in England Excellent, to
(09:43):
start learning, and that's whatI did.
I worked for one of the bigbanks in England to start
learning, and that's what I did,and I worked for a year there.
Then I joined a kind of reallyinteresting organization in
sales for a couple of years,learned about sales and building
customer relationships, andthat really excited me because
(10:04):
it appealed to my values ofbeing independent, being free,
being able to create moneythrough my skill at that work
without a limit, and that reallydid appeal to me.
I did that for a couple ofyears and then I joined an
organization which was extremelyforward-thinking and
progressive.
I don't know how lucky I was tofind it, but the owner of that
company used to say to a lot ofthe young ones I was in my 20s
(10:26):
you're never going to becometruly wealthy on a salary.
You can only build wealth ifyou're prepared to step out and
create an organization and takethat risk and grow it and build
it.
You can be well off andcomfortable on a salary, but
you'll never be truly wealthy.
And I saw the wisdom in thatsomehow, and it really
(10:48):
challenged my thinking.
But I saw it and I thought,yeah.
So about eight or nine yearslater, I was in my early 30s, I
quit that job and I said tomyself and to my employer this
is the last paid job I'm evergoing to have.
I promised myself I am onlygoing to create my own money
(11:08):
from this day forward.
And 30 years later, todd, I amstill in that place and I've
never let myself down on thatpromise.
Excellent.
So that's when it started.
Todd (11:18):
What a great story.
That is cool.
Yeah, so the company youfounded did really well.
Ray (11:34):
Can you talk about those successes and compare and
contrast that to what was goingon in your heart and mind at
that time?
That so, of course, wheneveryou've got something the market
really is demanding and you'vegot a good solution to that
that's affordable and worth it,you know that's that's always
going to be reasonablysuccessful.
As long as you're professionaland courteous and all the
(11:55):
service that comes with it isokay, it should should work.
Because we'd work me and mybusiness partner we'd work for
about 10 years in a in years ina company that offered similar
services.
We could see all the flaws andshortcomings of how we delivered
it in that old organization asemployees, so we knew exactly
what to do to improve it andinnovate and make it more
attractive to clients.
(12:16):
It was really clear and easy tosee and so I didn't have any
doubt.
But when I sat down with mybusiness partner, we wrote the
plan for that business we wantedto launch.
She said you know what would bereally the measure of the
success of this for you?
And she thought I was going tosay x million pounds or this
much profit or something.
I said well, I could sit downone day and say I am truly proud
(12:39):
of this business and itreflects everything I believe in
, and that's what I said.
Todd (12:43):
That's a great call.
Ray (12:45):
Yeah, and so for me, creating a company was about
creating an environment toinvite people into to work in
which they lovingly and kindlygot the kind of inputs and
support to grow and developpersonally, whilst delivering a
high service to clients, ofcourse, and to make money for
(13:05):
the company, but the primarygoal was as a greenhouse for
growing people.
Todd (13:11):
What that's great, and so that was always my goal.
Ray (13:16):
So that's why I work as a leadership coach and that's why
I was always fascinated withwhat makes humans grow.
Yes, for myself and for others.
And've still.
I'm still fascinated with thatand I right, I'm learning all
the time, of course, even thoughwhen, when you're in your 60s,
you know a lot, you never knowit all right, it's always in
retrospect.
Todd (13:35):
I look back and I'm like man.
Ray (13:36):
I wish I'd known then what I know now yeah, exactly, and so
I had this vision to be a placewhere people would be proud to
work.
Because when I think about thecompanies I deal with myself
right now, today, and the poorservice I receive from virtually
all of them, when I talk to thepeople that work in those
organizations, I don't feel anysense from those people that
(13:57):
they're proud of their jobs orthey're proud of where they work
.
I think they really just sortof tough it out and tolerate the
job for the salary, and that'sjust not how it should be, in my
view.
Todd (14:09):
I agree.
Yeah, I mean, there's so manylessons there.
First off, you had a mentor,someone that took time to say
look, if this is what you want,I recommend this.
That was great.
And then it's like you learnedalong the way what what good
looked like, what, what itdidn't look like yes and then,
when you started your company,it was all about the people.
Ray (14:31):
So, yeah, yeah yeah, exactly yeah, that was a recipe
for a successful business.
And in about five or six yearsinto the life of the company, I
was picked out by the dailytelegraph, which is a board
sheet like the new york times inengland, and, uh, I received
the business leader of the yearaward for 2002 because of the
(14:52):
work I'd done right wow, I sortof was, you know, very happy, of
course, but it gave me aconfirmation signal that I had
achieved what I'd set out to doNice, that's what that did, and
so it was a weird thing, becausethat was really the beginning
of the end of that phase of mylife.
(15:13):
Right, I didn't see it coming.
I didn't see it when thathappened.
Todd (15:16):
Right, and so that was the mountaintop, the pinnacle,
that's right, the mountaintop.
Ray (15:21):
I was 42 years old.
Todd (15:23):
Wow.
And then now, what was going onin your heart and mind at the
time?
Ray (15:27):
What was going on in my heart and mind was you know,
being a CEO isn't all it'scracked up to be.
There's a lot of parts to thislife and this role that I don't
enjoy at all.
There are some bits I like.
(15:48):
I like the bits working withclients and the front edge of it
, but a lot of the finance,legal selling and all of those
things.
I could do them, I wascompetent to do them, I had to
do them because I wasresponsible for the salaries of
all the company.
So it was okay.
But I thought you know what thisisn't, feeling like.
I'm really born to do this andI never could know what.
(16:10):
What am I meant to be doingwith my life?
You know, I just carried ondoing this because my business
partner was the woman I wasmarried to.
She was responsible for all theproject delivery in the company
and she was my wife.
So I loved her and wanted tosupport her and keep the thing
going.
But there was a sort of naggingfeeling of I'm not on my center
(16:30):
line.
I feel like I'm living someoneelse's life.
That was the feeling, and I'mnot sure what my life would be
if I was true and it all came toa head one day when, about
eight or nine years into thecompany's life, my wife came
back from a business meeting andsuddenly announced I'm leaving
you and I'm leaving the company.
Oh no, and it was really sudden, it was really shocking.
(16:52):
But looking back now, all theseyears later, it was the best
thing that could have happenedfor me.
Okay, because it forced me totake ownership for that inner
world and go.
I'm going to lose all this now.
It's all going to go and I nowhave to determine what my path
is.
And um, so circumstances sortof forced my hand a bit.
(17:14):
But also, my father got veryill at the same time as this was
going on, as if that wasn'tenough, and he he died shortly
after that.
Oh no, so within three or fourmonths my dad had passed away,
my marriage was ending, I wasout of my home and the company
was going to be changedirrevocably and it was
colossally difficult to containit and I I kind of spiraled down
(17:35):
into a bit of a depression fora year, to be honest I
understand that.
Yeah, I imagine it affected yourhealth too yeah, I just was
unmotivated, couldn't go out,didn't want to see anyone, felt
uncreative, all the, all thethings I had been before had
just gone out the window and, uh, and my best friend sort of
(17:56):
rallied around and one of themsaid you know, why don't you go
on a six-month sabbatical?
Why don't you try and makesense of this, reflect on it,
maybe get some new wisdom andinsight from life somewhere else
, not in london, but somewhereelse?
And uh, you know, see what, seewhat that brings and see how
that helps you set a new pathfrom here.
Yeah, I thought that's quite agood idea.
(18:18):
There's nothing to be lost fromthat, yeah.
So I set my life up to do thatand uh, as you know, and quite a
lot of people know, the-monthsabbatical did not go according
to the plan I had in my mindwhen I left.
Some weird things happened andI ended up living out of my
backpack for 14 years.
Todd (18:35):
Oh, my word 14 years.
Ray (18:38):
Yeah, totally unexpectedly and surprisingly, I never
returned to the old life that Ihad until 2019.
Todd (18:46):
Oh my word.
So you decided on a six-monthsabbatical.
I did yeah.
Were you planning to gobackpacking for six months?
Yeah.
Ray (18:53):
I was yeah.
Todd (18:55):
Okay, and was it living in hostels and stuff like?
Ray (18:58):
that, yeah, yeah, but I was going to Asia, to Thailand and
Cambodia and Laos and places inAsia, and I thought I'm gonna,
you know, possibly get a view oflife that's different in the
eastern parts of the world thanI would in the west, because
people think differently, gotdifferent outlooks, they've got
different cultures, differentideas about what's most
(19:18):
important in life.
Okay, and I wanted to tap intoa lot of that because I'd spoken
to one or two friends whotraveled that part of the world
and they told me howrejuvenating it had been, how
much it affected their thinking,and I was really kind of
inspired by that.
So, oh, that's good and then Imet someone in london, okay, a
woman who I liked, who was alsogoing to go traveling around
(19:40):
thailand and asia and go toaustralia after a year, and so I
said and we, we cooked up aplan to go together, basically
nice.
Todd (19:49):
So at like midway point of the six months, you were like I
think I'm gonna extend this, orhow did that?
How did it happen?
Ray (19:55):
it just played out, or yeah , mostly I was noticing, even
though I was in a beautiful partof the world aesthetically and
I was in thailand, it all lookedlovely on the surface, I was
wearing my shorts and t-shirtand sandals, and on the beach
and stuff inside, I was reallyagitated, feeling a lot of guilt
and shame about being aterrible husband who failed at
(20:16):
his marriage, um, scared aboutthe future, anxious about what
was coming next and all of thosethings.
Anxious about what was comingnext and all of those things.
And I authored a set of 10guiding principles after about
three or four months to help mehave a kind of safety rail to
lean on.
Okay, and I I made sort of 10kind of principles that I would
(20:37):
follow in order to bepsychologically safer.
Okay, and I know, and these areall in the book that I wrote
years later, but they werethings like self-acceptance,
non-attachment, making acontribution wherever I was,
modesty and frugality, thingslike this, things that would
help me stay mentally safewhilst I was in a massive
(21:00):
transition.
So I was going from being a veryrecognized and what's the word
with um status driven ceo tobeing completely anonymous, with
no status, just a poorbackpacker.
You know so, right, um, youknow.
So I was in a huge transitionand and then I met a traveler
after five months, could see mein this agitated state and he
(21:22):
said um, you know one thing Ithink you could do ray would
really help you.
We go into do a vipassanaretreat.
And I said what is a vipassanaretreat?
I never heard of it.
Todd (21:32):
I didn't even know what that was.
How do you?
What is that?
What type of retreat?
Ray (21:35):
there's a buddhist word, vipassana.
Okay, got it.
And and and it means vipassanameans mindfulness.
You know it's got it, it's gotthat connotation and and he said
you go into a monastery withmonks for 10 days and you stay
there and they give you arecommendation and you just
meditate in silence every daywith the monks and once a day
(21:57):
they kind of do a buddhistteaching for you to help you
understand how your own mind isworking and how it causes
suffering and how your thinkingdrives a lot of how it causes
suffering and how your thinkingdrives a lot of your decisions.
But it's not really thatreliable and you know it's a
chance to observe and learnabout your own mind.
I thought, I thought, gosh, Ireally, really, really want to
understand that.
So I went to do that retreat itwas month five or month six.
(22:20):
I did that and when I camethrough those 10 days which I
never thought I'd make, becauseI've never been silent for more
than 10 minutes um, I I was justabsolutely gobsmacked at how my
mindset changed.
I I felt like you know, whenyou shake a snow globe of a
souvenir you've been to on aholiday, and you shake the globe
(22:41):
and all this stuff's flyingaround inside.
When you put it down afterthree or four minutes,
everything settles to the bottomand you shake the globe and all
this stuff's flying aroundinside.
When you put it down afterthree or four minutes,
everything settles to the bottomand you can clearly see the
thing in the dome.
I felt like that in my own mindand and if I had a sound level,
the noise in my head before Iwent into the monastery was like
10 out of 10.
(23:01):
If I had a big knob on the sidemade you could twist, and it
was if someone had turned itdown to a.
It never goes away because yourmind is constantly commenting
on and narrating your life.
It can't be stopped.
It's going to speak to youalways.
You cannot stop your own mindtalking.
People say what do you meantalking?
(23:22):
And when they hear that, whatdo you mean talking?
That's their mind asking thatquestion.
That's it.
So it can't be switched off.
But I learned how to see thatand separate myself from the
noise of it that it makes andyou're the observer of that
noise rather than being caughtup in the noise.
(23:43):
Yes, it's a huge distinction yesand that's one of the
everything, wow.
Todd (23:48):
One of the biggest realizations I came to not I
didn't come up with it myselfwas just learning that you are
not your thoughts.
Ray (23:55):
Yeah, but to actually go through the physical steps to
get that, so it kind of youreally know it here, not up in
your mind, not as anintellectual concept, but right
as a knowing, because you'vefelt it and experienced it, yeah
, this is a big difference.
Todd (24:11):
So in modern society.
We're so, there's so much goingon and we're just so stirred up
it's difficult to just sit andbe alone in silence.
Yeah, yeah, because we're.
We live tortured existences, tobe honest.
Yeah, we do.
Ray (24:25):
It's wow 10 days yeah, we do, and that was a game changer
for me.
It was a massive game changer,so much so that I thought you
know what I'm meant to be goingback now to England.
But you know, this is justopened up something and I don't.
I'm not ready to go back yet.
And, by the way, just for thelisteners, I didn't have any
children when I was married andI got rid of a lot, pretty much
(24:48):
all of the stuff that I ownedbefore I left, pretty much all
of the stuff that I owned beforeI left.
So I didn't really have.
And I sold my house in londonbecause I put the money into the
bank, thinking that in sixmonths I'd come back and buy a
smaller place to live in.
Um, but I, so that was all onhold, you know.
So so I had actually no stuffto look after and no kids, you
know, no one waiting for me tocome back, no job, obviously.
(25:11):
No job because I wasself-employed, so I didn't
really have any need to returnreally, and so that made it easy
to say I'm going to just keepon with this journey for a bit
longer.
I wasn't sure how much, but Ithought I want to find a
community that I can join, whereI can meditate every week and
sort of really strengthen anddeepen my mindfulness practice,
(25:33):
because I could see how much ithad affected me.
Okay.
Todd (25:36):
And now, did you have contact with people back in
London or in the UK?
Ray (25:40):
Yes, Not much, not much.
But what I did was to keepeveryone up to date with my own
life.
I started writing a blog calledthe daily explorer.
Okay, and I was and I waswriting that regularly to share
stories about what was happening, what I was learning, what I
was learning from the journey.
And people loved what I wroteand I wasn't a writer or
(26:01):
anything like that but itstarted to help me hone and
develop my ability as a writer.
So I think that was one of thereasons why much later on in the
journey, I was called to writethe book, because I'd started to
learn about writing.
That's amazing.
Todd (26:18):
Now you called yourself.
You said this.
You said I was probably one ofthe oldest backpackers in Asia.
Ray (26:24):
I think so 45 when I left.
Todd (26:27):
Can you share any funny experiences you enjoyed during
the journey?
Funny.
Ray (26:31):
Gosh any uh funny experiences you enjoyed during
the journey?
Uh funny, gosh, uh funny.
You know, obviously in hostelsthere's a lot of young travelers
in their 19s 20s and you know,when we got cooked meals or had
talks over dinner, we we had alaugh.
You know, bantering around theconversations that we were
having.
So nothing particularly standsout as a funny story okay but
(26:52):
did they accept you?
Todd (26:53):
I mean, where is the younger?
Ray (26:54):
yeah, a lot of people were.
A lot of people were listeningquite intently yeah to the story
because they knew that's thejourney they were about to
embark on in their lives.
And here was a guy in his 40swho said you know, make sure you
choose wisely your path,because you could end up like me
, you could end up just gettinga what I call an off the shelf
(27:14):
life story.
If you don't take ownership foryour own unique vision of life,
you could end up with an offthe shelf life story that
everyone tells you.
That's because, when I wasgrowing up, people said, ray, if
you want to be happy as anadult, this is what you must do
you must get married, have kids,get a job, get a house, get a
mortgage and then you'll behappy.
And so that was theinstructions I got and I found
(27:36):
out, having executed that plan,that wasn't true for me.
It's true for some people, itwasn't true for me.
So I used to say to people Imet who were in their 19s and
20s, in their gap year just bereally careful, think about it.
And I told them my story and alot of them would say do you
know what?
I'm fascinated by what you'resaying and can I give you my
(27:57):
email address?
And I'd say, yeah, but why theysay well, at some point in the
future, you write a book aboutthis journey.
I'd really like to read it.
And I thought, I laughed.
I said I'm not, I'm just doingthis to heal myself, I'm not
doing it because I want to be anauthor.
I said, but I'll take youremail address.
But yeah, I said I'm veryunlikely to write a book.
(28:17):
But after five, after fiveyears of being on the road, I
had about I had about a hundredemail addresses that I'd
collected.
Wow, and I, and as the nextperson came, I thought do you
know what?
It's just dawned on me.
(28:39):
Why didn't I see this before?
I'm being called by theuniverse or whatever it is.
I'm being called to write abook about this journey.
I better learn.
I better learn how to write abook.
And I went on a course.
Yeah, that's how it came about.
So it's because people keptasking me.
It wasn't because I had leftwith that intention, but I was
asked so many times and you?
Todd (28:51):
you say you call that a confirmation signal.
So the people aroundconfirmation signal.
Yeah, yeah, that's right yeah,that's cool man, that's
fascinating yeah that is so coolso I thought, oh my god, I've
learned how to be a backpackerand a traveler.
Ray (29:05):
By the way, in that five years I became a fundraiser
because I went to an elephantsanctuary in thailand, I did a
picnic for some orphan kids innepal after I trekked around the
himalayas, and those two thingsalone they kind of brought me
to tears of joy because I sawhow much a little love and
kindness and a little bit ofmoney really helped those things
(29:27):
.
I thought I thought I want todo more of this.
I'm here, I've got time.
I could really help.
What could I do?
As I was r really help.
What could I do?
As I was ruminating on whatcould I do, I just randomly I
just happened to meet a guywho'd run six marathons.
He was 10 years younger than me, wow.
And I said tell me aboutrunning marathons.
And as he described hisexperience, I could feel my skin
tingling and I could feel myexcitement in my body listening
(29:50):
and I knew there was somethingwhat he was saying.
I said to him matt, his namewas matt campbell.
Yeah, I said, matt, do you, doyou think I could run a marathon
?
I was 48.
And he looked at me physically.
He said well, you kind of looksort of fit.
Have you ever run before?
I said no.
He said I'll tell you what.
Let's go for a run tomorrow andyou can wear my monitor and
stuff and and if I thinkeverything's okay, I'll offer to
(30:14):
train you to run your firstmarathon.
If you stay here in Chiang Maifor six months, I'll train you
and get you on the start line ofa marathon so that you could do
a fundraiser around it forthese things.
And I agreed to do it and sixmonths later more or less, I ran
the New York marathon.
It was November 2009.
That had been the marathon I'dalways dreamed I'd want to run.
(30:36):
If I did one.
And I managed to raise $15,000through my business network and
other connections.
And I finished the marathon,went back to Asia after it and I
took that money and deployed itto the elephant nature park
five thousand dollars.
And I took five thousanddollars to this orphanage in
(30:56):
nepal and had a new roof builton a school, bought some
computers, bought stuff theyneeded and just really spent a
year just getting all thesethings done to help these causes
.
So that was what was fillingthe time.
I wasn't any longer a tourist,I wasn't just traveling I.
I was actually doing meaningfulwork, just totally voluntarily.
(31:16):
I wasn't receiving any money atall, I just wanted to do it to
help them.
Todd (31:21):
Wow, that is amazing.
So you were doing all of thisto give back, so it's like
there's a lot of things going onthere.
Ray (31:34):
So you're excited about the marathon, but then you're
thinking how can I use this tohelp the people that I've met?
I only did the marathon toraise money.
That was what was behind it.
I mean, that was the reason Idid four more, by the way, I did
five.
In total, I managed to raiseabout $50,000.
Todd (31:44):
Wow, I mean I can look back on my own life and I can
see inflection points like thatwhere I just encounter chance
encounters with strangers yeahthat really just you know,
nothing major happened comingout of those meetings, but it
was like I can see those asinflection points yeah, that's a
good one, that's exactly soit's uh yeah, that's amazing.
(32:05):
So you what?
What places that first sixmonths?
Where were you?
When I was training no, no, I'msorry, the first six months I
was.
I was mostly majority of thattime traveling around thailand
okay did a little bit oftraveling in the neighboring
countries, but mostly inthailand okay, excellent, and
you spent your time in that areafor the whole 14 years, or?
Ray (32:27):
no, no, uh, I liked.
I liked the city of Chiang Mai,particularly liked it there.
It was just a lovely vibe andreally a very inexpensive place
to live and the quality oflife's good for the cost you
know.
So I really liked it.
And there are some wonderfultravelers there, some really
open-hearted, kind foreignersliving there.
(32:47):
So it was a place where youcould, you know, keep on your
personal growth path and getsupport for that.
And I found a Thai family whohad a couple of guest rooms at
their house and I was able totake a room with them and they
befriended me and I just feltreally at home there.
Even though I wasn't at home, Ifelt really at home there.
So any time I left, I left someof my stuff at their house so I
(33:11):
could come back to the room Iwas in.
So it became a sort of base inasia for me and I in in that 14
years, I'd say I probably spentabout four or five years in
thailand.
Okay, in thailand, yeah that's,that's amazing.
Todd (33:24):
I mean the thought of just taking in someone and you know,
yeah, yeah, that was, that'shuman connection.
Ray (33:31):
It was.
It was very, very.
I was very fortunate.
I felt a lot of the time I feltguided.
But then I say to people Icoach that guidance arrives the
more you start living lifeaccording to your values, vision
and what's really true for you.
And the more you startadmitting what's true for you
and actually choosing accordingto that, the more the universe
(33:52):
kind of aligns to give you whatyou need.
When you're not living true tothose things.
Life's an effort and it'sreally hard to make one step
forward because you're sort ofpushing against what you think
you want, because yourthinking's out of alignment.
Todd (34:08):
Yeah, well, let's dig into those things.
So you found this new missionin life?
Yeah, it sort of emerged foryou and you used that phrase.
Ray (34:17):
Confirmation signals as a navigation tool yeah that's
where I learned it as an air, asan aircraft pilot.
Todd (34:25):
That's where it actually came okay, yeah, I'm sorry, you
were a pilot as well, or youlearned it from a pilot.
Ray (34:30):
I was a pilot, yeah that's cool.
Todd (34:32):
So confirmation signals.
Ray (34:34):
So explain those so when you, when you're in the cockpit
of an aircraft or at least whenI trained, I didn't have gps, it
was quite a long time ago.
So you were, you werenavigating using charts in your
lap and looking up for things onthe ground, etc.
So the only aids that wereavailable were things called
vor's, uh beacons on the groundwhich emitted a radio frequency
(34:57):
and um.
So if you were flying from, say, london to birmingham,
birmingham airport has a vor atthe airport which emits a
specific frequency.
It's in the book, you know,it's got digits and you tune
your instrument to theBirmingham VOR and the needle in
your cockpit starts pointingtowards it, because you tuned it
(35:18):
.
Todd (35:18):
That is fascinating.
Ray (35:19):
And you just well, then you fly in the direction of the
needle because it's pointing tothat beacon.
So everything's fine, as longas you have selected the beacon
you actually want.
Because if you select by justmistake, birmingham's let's say,
birmingham is 124.8, but youselect 124.7, thinking that's
that one, but that's actually inthe opposite direction, it's
(35:42):
somewhere else.
You're then flying the needleto a place you don't want to go.
So to avoid that scenario,there's a Morse code signal in
your ear.
When you press the button, youget an audio confirmation, a
morse code signal in your ear.
When you press the button, youget a, an audio confirmation in
morse code that you have thebirmingham beacon.
It's unique, yeah, it's at.
If it's not the unique signalthat that beacon has, you know
(36:03):
you've chosen the wrong one.
So that signal confirms yourselection confirmation and tells
you you're headed in the rightdirection.
Todd (36:13):
Yeah, so I thought what a perfect metaphor for life yes,
because then, james and I, as wecame up with the name of our
podcast, and if you look at ourartwork and stuff, it's uh, it's
a map and a compass and so Iwas infantry in the marines so
we did land navigation with acompass and a map.
Ray (36:33):
So it makes sense to you, then yeah.
Todd (36:35):
So what you're saying, I'm like, okay, that's how pilots
did that, that's cool, yeah,yeah.
So you know it's talking aboutthe cluttered path, though.
I mean, it's like you do mapout your way, but then along the
way it doesn't look like themap.
No, it never does.
Yeah, no, it never does, yeah.
And you're encountering allthese obstacles along the way
and then the mission becomes howdo I navigate this path that
(36:58):
I'm on?
Yeah, and how do I get aroundthe obstacles?
And taking offsets and thingslike that.
But, wow, that is fascinatingman.
Confirmation signals.
Ray (37:07):
And so that enabled me to say, okay, I'm facing this
decision on this unchartedjourney.
I've been invited to do this orI'm getting called to write a
book.
How do I know that's the rightdecision for me?
Okay, well, here's a literaryauthor who's advertising a
five-day writing course inChiang Mai.
Let me test this out to see ifit's right.
(37:28):
I will contact her and I'll askher two questions and,
depending on the answer, it willconfirm it's wrong or it's
right.
I will contact her and I'll askher two questions and,
depending on the answer, it willconfirm it's wrong or it's
right.
So I contacted her and said Isee that you're doing a five-day
course.
It looks like it's for alreadyestablished authors.
I'm a complete beginner.
Would I be suitable as aparticipant or would I just be
in the way?
(37:48):
Because if I'd be suitable,along with these other authors,
I need that confirmed.
Second, is you're asking peopleto pay 1200?
I'm a backpacker fundraiser.
I don't have any income becauseI really didn't.
Can I do the course for 500?
Now, if I got yeses to both ofthose, I'd say that's going to
(38:11):
be my confirmation signal.
That's the the right choice.
If I don't, I'll find anotherway.
She came back and said yes andyes.
That confirmed it.
Todd (38:19):
Nice.
So my interpretation looking atthat, I can see that in my own
life when I was 18, I mapped outmy entire life and I thought,
okay, I'm going to do this, I'mgoing to do this, I'm joining
the military, I'm going to go tocollege.
Then I'm going to do this.
I'm joining the military, I'mgoing to go to college, then I'm
going to go back into themilitary.
I'm going to be a pilot.
This is what I'm going to do,but then along the way, I
diverted from that path and Ileft the military.
(38:40):
Yeah, what I took away fromthat is you have to take action.
Yeah, observe what's happeningand then make, make a decision
and act, and then things changeand be unattached to the action
you've taken.
Ray (38:53):
Yes, more like I.
I sort of think of it beingmore like a person conducting an
experiment rather than a personwho's got to achieve an outcome
whatever happens.
Yes.
That puts you in a sort ofstate of anxiety.
I think it's not helpful.
Todd (39:08):
Yeah, detach yourself from the outcome.
Ray (39:11):
Yeah.
Todd (39:12):
And uh yeah.
So there's a book I read calleduh, inner excellence yeah and
he talks about that.
You can't focus on the outcome,you have to just think about
the process.
Ray (39:21):
Yeah, I think what am I going to learn from this?
whether it works out, whether itdoesn't work out, excellent,
I'm going to learn somethingyeah and also I like the concept
that lots of writers have nowtaken on board from the three
principles work.
Michael Neal is perhaps bestknown because he wrote a book
called the Inside Out Revolutionand he's regarded as one of the
world's top coaches around this.
(39:41):
He says you have to shift yourorientation in life from an
outside-in way of looking atlife to an inside-out way of
navigating.
This is his way of describingit.
So an outside in person goesI'm unhappy.
I'm unhappy because out there Idon't have the right job or I
don't have enough money or mypartner's not the best part I
(40:02):
could have.
I'm going to go out, find a newpartner and then I'll be happy
in.
Yeah, this never works thisnever works this is the
orientation we're given aschildren when we're growing up.
But the real truth is I'm happyhow I am.
I accept and love myself.
I'm gonna just put thathappiness out into the world and
(40:23):
guess what lovely people areattracted to coming to me.
Yes, and I'm happy about that.
Yeah, I'm happy anyway, right.
Yeah, it's an inside out.
Your happiness is inside firstright, and it shines outward and
that shining outward brings toyou what you need and you've got
to trust life is going todeliver you.
(40:44):
Just you've got to trust thatat some point.
Todd (40:46):
You just got to let go and trust it's coming, it's coming
right all I've got to do is showup happy and we think that it's
the outside things, the, andthe grass is greener on the
other side of the fence and then, you, you get to the other side
of the fence and you kill thegrass, so yeah, correct.
Ray (41:01):
Correct.
You know this is big and that'sone of the major shifts in
orientation that I had frombeing a ceo.
I was very target driven andoutcome driven for the business
of, of course, yes, and I wouldsay.
People say the phrase is I'llbe happy when dot, dot, dot, you
can fill in your.
I'll be happy when we hit thisyear's revenue target.
I'll be happy when we hit nextyear's revenue target.
(41:23):
The happiness that came was forfive minutes.
Then I'll be now.
I'm not happy again until weget next year.
I'll be happy when I get abigger house.
I'm not happy again until weget next year.
I'll be happy when I get abigger house, I'll be happy when
blah, blah, blah, you know, younever, you never have enough.
It's always.
It's always just like thedonkey with the carrot it's
always just.
Todd (41:41):
And you never.
You achieve that and thenyou're still not happy and it's
never enough.
Ray (41:45):
But yeah, we are enough already.
That's the thing we don'treally get taught that right.
Todd (41:50):
And so that leads to the next question that so you
recommend people commit to apath that is true.
You say true and authentic.
What do you mean by that?
Ray (41:58):
yeah, I just mean that you first you start, you say
irrespective of what I do, whataction I do or what work I do or
any of those things as a humanbeing, what's really important
to me?
What in my daily life, what ismost important that I experience
?
And so people might say thingslike, for example well, I want
to experience being part of ateam.
(42:19):
I don't, you know, it could bein any job, but I like being
part of a team or community.
I like being in a team.
So that's.
Todd (42:26):
I write that down.
Ray (42:26):
I want to be in a great team, a team that lifts me, a
team that encourages me to grow.
In a great team, a team thatlifts me, a team that encourages
me to grow, a team thatsupports my growth that would be
an experience I definitelywould want, no matter what the
job was.
And then you say I want to be,I like learning new things.
I get really excited learninganything new, so I want to be in
a team, I want to be learning.
Uh, you might say I like doingthings that no one's done before
(42:50):
, so I like to pioneer newthings.
So now you got I want a life inwhich I'm in a team, I'm
learning new things and I'mgetting a chance to pioneer some
new things that no one's everdone before.
So now you're kind of getting afeel of what you're looking for
in terms of the experience.
So then when a job comes up,you can look at that job and
what's advertised and say towhat extent will I meet these
(43:10):
three needs that I have?
How?
What's the match there?
And so if it matches a hundredpercent, that's a really good
choice, yeah for you.
But if it doesn't match at alllike if it's data analytics and
you're sitting on your own withthe spreadsheet at home and
you're not in your team andyou're not learning because
you've got to do that for thenext five years and you know,
(43:31):
and it's and it's been, it'sjust routine maintenance and
there's nothing to be innovated.
You're going to be reallyunhappy.
Todd (43:38):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
What I'm taking away here iswell.
One thing I'm noticing is thatyou're writing things down.
Ray (43:46):
I'm making a note of these things because you've got to
know what your values are.
You have to know them and bereally clear with your own mind
what they are, because I thinkwe've got like this internal
dashboard that keeps us on thetrue path.
One is values, one is vision.
You know, what is the vision ofthe life that I'm trying to
(44:06):
author?
What?
Does that look?
like, not just my work, but mywork, family, family, children,
you know, contribution tosociety.
It's all in that vision.
What does that vision look like, and am I constantly moving
towards it, or am I moving awayfrom it?
So, values and vision, purpose,you know why do I wake up in
the morning?
What am I here?
(44:27):
What's my presence on earthmeant to be?
For you know what's it, what'sthe reason I'm, I'm here in this
incarnation, you know that'sfun.
Um, one is beliefs.
What are the beliefs I holdthat really empower me, like,
for example, I believe it'sreally good to be generous.
That's a very empowering beliefand it always adds when you act
(44:49):
out of it.
But I believe there's just not.
I don't have enough money toeven give anything.
That's a limiting belief,that's going to restrict your
thinking.
And then the last one is whatare the forces that drive me
that I'm not really consciouslyaware of?
And those ones are the same forall of us, for you, me and
(45:09):
everyone.
Ones are the same for all of us, for you, me and everyone.
There are things like the needfor belonging, security, the
need for recognition, the needfor you know, variety, things
like that, right.
So those, those are the fivethings on the dashboard.
Now.
That means that once a week, ormore often, you're going to sit
and make time to reflect onyourself.
Let me score myself on those.
(45:31):
Where am I?
You know how?
To what extent am I?
Am I meeting all of those fivethings on the dashboard and
where do I need to make changes?
Where do I need to pay a bitmore attention?
Where do I need to improve?
What do I need to shift here?
Todd (45:43):
Yeah, most of us have a check engine light on our
dashboard and we ignore it.
Ray (45:48):
Yeah, right, so that's the.
That's like a personalcheck-inin and I'd recommend at
least 20, 30 minutes ofreflection time a week for
someone who's busy.
Yeah so good.
Todd (45:57):
Yeah, most of us are just reactionary.
Life is happening and we'rejust being carried along by
whatever is in the river bumpinginto us.
Ray (46:06):
Yeah, exactly, and what I've just described to you there
is like I've got these.
My editors, when I wrote thebook, asked me to write what
would be my six rules for ahappy life.
So I wrote those in the book,and the first two were develop a
strong core of self-awarenessso that's creating the dashboard
.
And the second rule was takefull ownership for everything
(46:29):
that happens, because, eventhough you've got an
understanding of your values andyou've got a vision, other
people will take actions thatyou don't like or are not in
your plan, get made redundant orthis or that will happen.
Yeah, you cannot let thosethings stop you from moving
towards your vision.
You've got to find ways ofovercoming that, and so the
(46:49):
third rule, which is becomingyour own observer, is really
really vital, which is, you know, pay attention to what your
thinking is and, if it'slimiting what your choices are,
maybe shift the thinking andchange your thinking a bit to
unlimit yourself.
You know, yeah, and so thatI've explained that in a much
more depth than I can do in thisconversation, probably right
(47:11):
yeah.
Todd (47:12):
So now you're teaching others what you've learned.
You've written the book.
Now how did it come about thatyou decided to become a coach?
Ray (47:20):
well, when I was a ceo and I won this award, it was highly
publicized in the papers, and soI started receiving telephone
calls asking from other ceos andother leaders saying, whatever
it is you're doing with yourcompany, with your people, could
you share with me what you doand tell me what I should do?
I wasn't a coach normally then,but I said, yeah, I can make
some time to sit and take youthrough some of that if you want
(47:44):
.
And so I, and with mymanagement team in my company, I
have a very collaborative styleand I'm very coaching in my
style.
So I would even with mymanagers in the company.
I would say where are youtrying to get to?
What's most important for youin terms of your growth this
year?
What would be a milestone you'dlike to achieve for yourself?
(48:05):
And they'd say that.
And so I'd then be saying everymonth how are you getting on
with that?
Are you making the progress youwant?
What's getting in the way foryou?
How could you overcome that?
You know what would help you.
So I had a very coaching basedapproach anyway as a leader,
yeah.
And so I just thought you knowwhat I just really want to do.
Focus on this.
I don't want to own and operatea business.
(48:27):
I don't want the responsibilityof having to pay salaries every
month and run the company andown it.
I can do that, but it's not mein my element, it's not me at my
absolute best.
I just want to focus on theparts that really light me up
and discard the rest.
Todd (48:44):
Excellent One thing that strikes me here the coaching
emerged for you because peoplestarted asking rather than you.
Honestly, a lot of people haveappointed themselves life
coaches.
Ray (48:57):
Yeah, well, you know, if you're out of work and you need
money, you do what you need todo, don't you?
Todd (49:01):
Yeah, so it's interesting that a lot of stuff on LinkedIn
out there were.
Ray (49:06):
Yeah, out there were.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, now these days I meanbecause that psychological
contract of a job for life isgone we are seeing huge, huge
numbers of people now areself-employed and trying to make
that work.
Todd (49:18):
I got kids and families to look after and it makes sense
they have to find a way yeah, soI'll leave that one alone, but
I'll just say this there's a lotof people that they're they're
working their day jobs and theyhave a dream of becoming a life
coach, but they haven't donethat step of taking observing
themselves.
Ray (49:39):
Yeah, yeah, that's the most valuable part, yeah.
Todd (49:41):
Do I have this skill and are there people around me that
are confirming this and saying,yeah, you should do this.
We started the podcast.
This was after years of peoplesaying, hey, you should do this.
We started the podcast.
This was after years of peoplesaying, hey, you should.
You know, blah, blah, blah, andI got those confirmation
signals along the way.
Now, who knows, we may never,nothing may ever come of it
other than I'm really enjoyingthese conversations.
(50:02):
Who knows?
But, there's value in that alone, and I'm not.
You know, I'm not thinkingabout the outcome here, although
I do.
You know, sometimes I do thinkI would like for this to be the
only thing I do in life, but I'mnot attached to that.
So, yeah, man, this isfascinating, but for me, though,
as a nine-to-five employee, myperception is that most of these
(50:24):
C-suite execs, they're reallyjust hiding behind a facade and
they're just trapped in otherpeople's expectations.
So you came from that space.
Is that your perspective aswell?
Ray (50:35):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of it is.
You know, you just got thisdrive.
I have to.
I have to prove to my parentsI'm good enough to be doing this
or something.
You know I'm not sure it'sdifferent beliefs for everyone,
but that's why I think diggingin to ask oneself what are my
beliefs and which ones limit meand which ones really actually
serve me and help me grow.
(50:56):
Because if you're dry, beingdriven by some of these beliefs,
they're just just going tohinder your progress and
development.
And I kind of like it sayingyou're climbing a ladder but
your ladder is resting againstthe wrong wall.
You know so you just want tomake sure your ladder's against
the wall that's yours, the onethat you're actually trying to
(51:17):
climb.
Todd (51:18):
You may need to get off that ladder.
Ray (51:21):
Or move it to a different wall at least and put the effort
in, because you've always gotto put the effort in, but make
sure you pick the wall youreally want to climb.
Todd (51:29):
Right, and is the effort you're putting in aligned with
where you're trying to go?
Ray (51:34):
yeah, and you know with who you are yeah, absolutely, and
you know, I I think I've beenvery fortunate.
I want to be kind, you know, tothe listeners.
I don't want to say andeveryone's trying their absolute
best and working with thelimited awareness that they have
, so no one's's doing anythingwrong.
It's just that when you get newdata, even if it's about what
goes on in your own head, whenyou get new data to look at, it
(51:58):
can change your perspective andcan change your orientation.
But you've got to be willing togo and digging for the new data
inside your own thinking, right?
No one's coming to do it foryou?
Todd (52:09):
Yeah, just opening up a little bit about myself here.
I've spent a lot of my lifebitter and resentful about
circumstances, right, and thingsnot working out the way I want
them to.
Yeah.
But what was missing was that,the self-awareness, just sitting
down and settling my mind andthinking where do I want to be,
(52:30):
what do I believe, what are myvalues, and so conversations
like this with you, ray, havebeen so helpful for me.
So, thank you, you're welcome,thank you, it's good, and I'm
just thinking of people in mylife that are just faced with
this right now.
Just sitting back and life hasjust happened to them and
they're feeling trapped andthey're feeling isolated and
(52:53):
they're feeling like it's justnot worth it.
I mean, that's why the suiciderate is just epidemic
proportions, especially amongmen.
Ray (53:03):
Yeah, well, it's completely valid to feel that way.
And if I meet someone who feelslike that, I ask them what is
the thinking they're having?
That's that's driving thosefeelings, that, because it's a
think, feel, behave world welive in, you know, our behavior
is driven by how we feel, andhow we feel is driven by what we
think it is that order.
(53:25):
yes, so if someone's feeling bad, it means their thinking needs
to be examined.
They have to be willing to lookat their thinking.
There is no other way ofshifting that feeling to a more
positive, more encouraging, moreempowering feeling.
There is no way of doing thatif you're not examining your
thinking and being willing tolet go and change your thinking.
(53:47):
People say, well, you can'tjust change your thinking.
You can, you can actually do it.
Yes, you can't just change yourthinking.
You can.
You can actually do it.
Yes, you can.
There are ways of doing that.
Todd (53:54):
Yes, I literally just had a conversation with a
psychotherapist and he said it'sindependent of age as well.
It is so the old dog, newtricks thing is not true.
Ray (54:04):
Exactly.
We choose our thoughts justlike we choose something off the
menu in a restaurant.
We choose our thoughts justlike we choose something off the
menu in a restaurant.
Yes, we choose the thoughtsthat kind of we're most
comfortable or habitually usedto choosing, not the rest of the
options that are available.
Todd (54:19):
And we don't challenge the thoughts, the negative thoughts
that come up and this is me, soI'm not Right.
This is how I've operated formuch of my adult life is the
thoughts emerge, I don'tchallenge them, I accept them
and then I go along with themand then my feelings emerge,
negative feelings, and thatdrives behavior.
Ray (54:37):
Yeah, exactly.
Todd (54:38):
And so you end up leaving a job a good job because you
just had negative feeling.
This is me.
I'm not pointing the finger,I'm, you know, unsettled,
negative thoughts.
I changed jobs, yeah, andthat's not a good thing.
I've gotten better about that.
In, in, in recent years.
Ray (54:54):
But, uh, I get you, I get you, you really do.
Yeah.
One conversation can completelytransform your experience of
life.
Right and that decentconversation can shift
everything.
Todd (55:06):
Yes, and that is how I arrived at this point where it's
having these conversations.
I love this, so, wow, this hasbeen edifying.
Ray, I really thank you foryour time.
Ray (55:19):
Yeah, my pleasure.
Todd (55:20):
Yeah, so how can people contact you Ray?
Ray (55:23):
Well, a couple of ways I've got.
The book I wrote is called LifeWithout a Tie.
So there's a website calledlifewithoutatiecom that has a
bio of me and some bit about thejourney, lots of photographs
from the 14 years of journeythat I was in, because a lot of
readers who read the book saidcan we see pictures?
So we put loads of pictures upon the website for readers.
(55:45):
And I'm also on LinkedIn.
It's where I mostly communicatewith people in the business
world.
It's on LinkedIn and peoplewill find me on LinkedIn.
Those are the two best places.
If anyone wants to get the book, it's on Amazon.
Todd (56:01):
Yeah, and I'll put an affiliate link in the episode
description here and we'll alsoput links for lifewithoutatiecom
and also LinkedIn bio for Ray.
So, this is good man, so we'lldo that, but any takeaways you'd
like to leave with the audience.
Ray (56:17):
Oh gosh, I think we've covered a lot of ground here.
We've hit a lot, yeah, but if Ihad to come back to one single
point, it would always be.
You know, put your ladder upagainst the right wall, and that
means really give some thoughtto what is my true path and how
do I find and get a confirmationsignal?
Todd (56:35):
I wrote that down.
You said choose wisely yourpath, the confirmation signals
looking for.
And I'm telling you, so oftenwe don't seek out the
confirmation.
No we just barrel forward withI want to do this.
Yeah, I don't even have theskills to do that.
What am I doing't even have theskills to do that.
What am I doing here?
Yeah, yeah, exactly, and thatjust leads to a lot of
dissatisfaction.
But can do.
Ray (57:00):
And sometimes and sometimes accidentally at least a lot of
joy.
You know it's hard to say bedefinitive, but you know I can
only share the experience I'vehad.
But yeah, I mean, it'sdifferent for everyone
experience I've had.
Todd (57:12):
But yeah, I mean it's different for everyone my one
statement here that I'm takingaway at this point and I want to
leave is choose wisely yourpath.
Yeah, and that choosing there'sa lot wrapped into that
choosing because you, you needto sit down and think, write
things down and that choicebecomes an informed choice that
aligns with who you are andwhere you want to be.
So choose wisely your path.
(57:33):
So, thanks so much forlistening and if you enjoyed
this episode, please considerleaving a review and share it
with your friends.
And until next time, see you onthe path.
Ray (57:46):
This is the cluttered house .
Stories about life.
This could be for tonight.
This is the Cluttered Path , a compass for midlife.
You can achieve everythingsociety tells you to want
Success, money, admiration butyou can still feel completely
empty inside.
Here's what most successstories don't tell you.
(00:22):
Sometimes, the only way to findhappiness is to rid yourself of
the outward trappings ofsuccess.
Because the man we'll meettoday he won it all, but he
discovered his greatestachievement was really just
learning to live with nothingbut what he carried in a
backpack, while finding more joythan he ever expected.
His name is Ray Martin, alsoknown as the Daily Explorer.
He's an entrepreneur, anaward-winning business leader,
(00:45):
coach, mentor, speaker, amongmany other things, and his
mission in life is to reallyempower people to live
authentically and bring more joyand happiness to the world.
Ray, welcome to the show.
Ray (00:56):
Oh, what a lovely introduction.
Thank you so much, todd, that'sbrilliant.
Todd (01:00):
Oh, no worries.
So Ray's in the UK and I justwanted to tell you, ray, I
visited Uxbridge, outside ofLondon, for about 10 days, yeah,
okay, and I had a really goodtime.
It was the company I worked for.
We had something going on inthe area, so I was there for 10
days.
Yeah.
And really just enjoyedinteracting with the British
people.
Ray (01:20):
I'm glad to hear it people.
Todd (01:22):
It was nice.
Just a couple of things.
One what I really liked aboutthis group is every day they all
brought their lunches and theyall ate lunch in the common area
.
Ray (01:33):
Okay yeah, that's quite a popular thing in British
companies.
Todd (01:37):
I like that.
For me it was like, okay, thisis cool.
And then there was a lady therewho she said, todd, I'm going
to make you a proper cup ofBritish tea.
And I said, ok, cool.
So, yeah, very pleasant people.
But yeah, I really enjoyed mytrip there.
Yeah, super OK.
Well, let's get started.
So can you tell us where youwere born and about your
(01:58):
childhood?
Ray (01:59):
Yeah, I was born in a tiny, tiny little town on the
outskirts of London calledWellingarden City and it was a
typical little suburb thatsprung up in the 60s to meet the
sort of housing crisis incentral London which had been
bombed during the war and stufflike that.
And my parents were from thebombed part of London and so
they wanted to move out andcreate a bright new future for
(02:22):
their family that had juststarted.
I've got an older brother.
He was one year old.
They moved out to wellinggarden city and I was born in
welling garden city just about ayear after they arrived.
I went to school there and it'sa.
It's the kind of place that Iwould think there's many places
in america like it.
You kind of small town.
You grow up there, meet yourpartner, life probably when
(02:45):
you're there and have yourchildren there and never leave.
That's one life story off theshelf.
Or you finish your schoolingand then you just leave and you
never come back.
It's probably one or the otherof those, maybe some shades, but
mostly I'd say it was that, andfor me it was the second one,
because I really was excitedabout the idea of moving to
(03:05):
London and getting involved incommerce and the whole
razzmatazz of that kind of busyworld, and I really was excited
about that.
So I had to leave WellingGarden City, which I did when I
was about 17.
Todd (03:18):
Yeah, I did the same.
It was a small town in Georgiahere in the States and it was
like I just ended up leaving,never went back.
Yeah, Interesting, but uh.
So what activities did youenjoy as a teen?
Ray (03:32):
Oh yeah, definitely sports.
I, I love.
I love playing football, um, uh, any kind of sports, actually,
you know the preferred one.
And watching and playing, lovedmovies, uh, loved reading.
I love making models and kits,which I used to do, and my
brother and I, um, were veryavid, I'm sorry, very nerdy, but
(03:55):
we were really enjoying calledaircraft spotting in in america,
in england, I don't know whatthey call it america you're
basically fascinated byairplanes and you go to
airfields to see the airplanesand you make a note of their
registration numbers, becausethere were books that contain
all the registrations and youcan collect the registration
numbers until you've seen, gotthem all, you know and wow.
(04:17):
So we would sit at heathrowduring our school holidays for
the whole day with ourbinoculars watching, watching
airplanes land and take off.
We loved it.
My brother actually,incidentally, became an airline
pilot.
That's what he did for his work, his career, so he was really
loving that.
So that's some of the things.
Todd (04:36):
Yeah, when I was a kid, in sixth grade, we took a field
trip to an Air Force base in thearea and we saw these F-15s and
all this stuff.
So that was I wanted to be apilot.
That was my plan at 18 yearsold.
I'm going to go to the military, I'm going to do this, I don't
know be a pilot.
Once I got in the military andI saw how much the pilots had to
work, I was like no thanks.
Ray (05:00):
Yeah, I mean I don't know if you know the place, but when
a davis montham at tucson inarizona okay, the airplane
boneyard or graveyard, I thinkthey call it I know and I really
wanted to go there and you cango there and go on a tour, and
which I did and it was amazingbecause there's about two and a
half thousand or three thousandaircraft parked and all boarded
up in the desert there so theydon't rust or deteriorate, but
(05:22):
wow, what an amazing, incredible.
It was like something out of asteven spielberg movie.
It was really extraordinary.
Yeah, that's real weird.
Todd (05:30):
Yeah, that is cool.
That's interesting, man.
Something just popped into myhead when I was in england, in
uxbridge.
There we were out at dinner onenight and um talking to one of
the british colleagues and hetold he was talking about his
house and he's like somehow itcame up that it was built in the
year 1099.
And I'm like your house isolder than my country.
Ray (05:50):
Yeah right, 1099, that's nearly a thousand several
hundred years old.
Todd (05:59):
It was surreal.
That was very interesting.
Okay, so what did you pursueafter secondary school and for
Americans, that's high school?
Ray (06:07):
Yeah, we had the option of going to do two more years of
study at school they call thatA-levels in England and then if
you did that, you had the optionto then go on to university,
which is, I'd say, the mostpeople did that.
But you know, I had a visionwhen I was a child Like when I
was 10 or 11, something didn'tmake sense to me about law, and
(06:28):
I was growing up in the 60s, sothe thinking has changed
massively since then.
So this doesn't really applynow.
But when I was in the 60s, whatI saw were adults who worked
mostly in one company theirwhole life and they worked
really long hours and reallyhard in order to retire and get
their pension so they couldstart really living the life
they wanted.
But most of them died withintwo, three, four years of
(06:51):
retiring and it just never madesense to me as a child that that
would be your life, and I usedto say sometimes to one or two
teachers and certainly to myclassmates that doesn't make any
sense to me.
Why do people do that?
What is that what we'resupposed to do?
And they said, well, what's,what's the alternative?
And I was only 10 or 11 I'd saywell, you know what I'm gonna
(07:12):
do as a young kid.
I'm gonna just get a job whereI can earn twice as much money
in the first half and then havethe second half of my life saved
from 40 onwards, to go andtravel and play.
And that's what I'm going to do.
And they say, oh, how are yougoing to do that?
I said I don't know.
I'm only 10, I have no ideawhat I was talking about, but I
(07:33):
had this thinking as a kid andthen I totally forgot about it.
But it came back to me when Iyou know, later on in my life,
when I got divorced and my daddied and that led to me taking
the journey that I've writtenabout in my book.
That then became.
I went oh my goodness, I forgotwhat I'd said.
It was as if it silently shapedmy life journey in the
(07:56):
background, without evenconsciously realizing it.
Todd (07:59):
Excellent, yeah, and it's not an unrealistic goal work and
save money and build up so youcan retire early.
Ray (08:07):
But that's an adult's logic and that is rational and that's
great.
But I wasn't an adult and Iwasn't rational.
I was just saying it because itdidn't make any sense to just
spend your whole life doing onething and then die.
Todd (08:21):
Right, and I think most people feel that way and then
die Right and we, I think mostpeople feel that way.
But, and strangely, now and nowand today, you can get let go
from a company, especially herein the States and everywhere.
You know, yeah, you just youthink you're going to work
someplace.
You have it, you know, I'mgoing to, I'm going to be here
until I retire.
Ray (08:36):
No, Then they let you go and it's yeah, it's yeah.
That psychological contract hasbeen ripped up for at least a
decade now.
Todd (08:49):
It has.
And then when I was in mymid-30s I've been in the tech
industry for my whole career andjust in my mid-30s I started
seeing my colleagues.
They would hit their 50s Rightand they would get laid off.
And it was to me that was like,I'm not going to.
Ray (09:22):
And here's the devastating tragic thing is a lot of them
just didn't have any money, sothey would end up losing
everything and then they can'tfind another job because of
their age.
And it was yeah.
So I saw that and it was like Idon't want that for myself, so
it's time to save money.
But yeah, so when did youbecome an entrepreneur?
Yeah, I did.
I actually because of thatthinking as a child, you know,
when I was 16 and my educationcome to an end, I didn't want to
continue with further education.
I wanted to get into the worldof creation and work and
business and start learningstraight away about business,
and so I took a job at 16.
I worked for one of the bigbanks in England Excellent, to
(09:43):
start learning, and that's whatI did.
I worked for one of the bigbanks in England to start
learning, and that's what I did,and I worked for a year there.
Then I joined a kind of reallyinteresting organization in
sales for a couple of years,learned about sales and building
customer relationships, andthat really excited me because
(10:04):
it appealed to my values ofbeing independent, being free,
being able to create moneythrough my skill at that work
without a limit, and that reallydid appeal to me.
I did that for a couple ofyears and then I joined an
organization which was extremelyforward-thinking and
progressive.
I don't know how lucky I was tofind it, but the owner of that
company used to say to a lot ofthe young ones I was in my 20s
(10:26):
you're never going to becometruly wealthy on a salary.
You can only build wealth ifyou're prepared to step out and
create an organization and takethat risk and grow it and build
it.
You can be well off andcomfortable on a salary, but
you'll never be truly wealthy.
And I saw the wisdom in thatsomehow, and it really
(10:48):
challenged my thinking.
But I saw it and I thought,yeah.
So about eight or nine yearslater, I was in my early 30s, I
quit that job and I said tomyself and to my employer this
is the last paid job I'm evergoing to have.
I promised myself I am onlygoing to create my own money
(11:08):
from this day forward.
And 30 years later, todd, I amstill in that place and I've
never let myself down on thatpromise.
Excellent.
So that's when it started.
Todd (11:18):
What a great story.
That is cool.
Yeah, so the company youfounded did really well.
Ray (11:34):
Can you talk about those successes and compare and
contrast that to what was goingon in your heart and mind at
that time?
That so, of course, wheneveryou've got something the market
really is demanding and you'vegot a good solution to that
that's affordable and worth it,you know that's that's always
going to be reasonablysuccessful.
As long as you're professionaland courteous and all the
(11:55):
service that comes with it isokay, it should should work.
Because we'd work me and mybusiness partner we'd work for
about 10 years in a in years ina company that offered similar
services.
We could see all the flaws andshortcomings of how we delivered
it in that old organization asemployees, so we knew exactly
what to do to improve it andinnovate and make it more
attractive to clients.
(12:16):
It was really clear and easy tosee and so I didn't have any
doubt.
But when I sat down with mybusiness partner, we wrote the
plan for that business we wantedto launch.
She said you know what would bereally the measure of the
success of this for you?
And she thought I was going tosay x million pounds or this
much profit or something.
I said well, I could sit downone day and say I am truly proud
(12:39):
of this business and itreflects everything I believe in
, and that's what I said.
Todd (12:43):
That's a great call.
Ray (12:45):
Yeah, and so for me, creating a company was about
creating an environment toinvite people into to work in
which they lovingly and kindlygot the kind of inputs and
support to grow and developpersonally, whilst delivering a
high service to clients, ofcourse, and to make money for
(13:05):
the company, but the primarygoal was as a greenhouse for
growing people.
Todd (13:11):
What that's great, and so that was always my goal.
Ray (13:16):
So that's why I work as a leadership coach and that's why
I was always fascinated withwhat makes humans grow.
Yes, for myself and for others.
And've still.
I'm still fascinated with thatand I right, I'm learning all
the time, of course, even thoughwhen, when you're in your 60s,
you know a lot, you never knowit all right, it's always in
retrospect.
Todd (13:35):
I look back and I'm like man.
Ray (13:36):
I wish I'd known then what I know now yeah, exactly, and so
I had this vision to be a placewhere people would be proud to
work.
Because when I think about thecompanies I deal with myself
right now, today, and the poorservice I receive from virtually
all of them, when I talk to thepeople that work in those
organizations, I don't feel anysense from those people that
(13:57):
they're proud of their jobs orthey're proud of where they work
.
I think they really just sortof tough it out and tolerate the
job for the salary, and that'sjust not how it should be, in my
view.
Todd (14:09):
I agree.
Yeah, I mean, there's so manylessons there.
First off, you had a mentor,someone that took time to say
look, if this is what you want,I recommend this.
That was great.
And then it's like you learnedalong the way what what good
looked like, what, what itdidn't look like yes and then,
when you started your company,it was all about the people.
Ray (14:31):
So, yeah, yeah yeah, exactly yeah, that was a recipe
for a successful business.
And in about five or six yearsinto the life of the company, I
was picked out by the dailytelegraph, which is a board
sheet like the new york times inengland, and, uh, I received
the business leader of the yearaward for 2002 because of the
(14:52):
work I'd done right wow, I sortof was, you know, very happy, of
course, but it gave me aconfirmation signal that I had
achieved what I'd set out to doNice, that's what that did, and
so it was a weird thing, becausethat was really the beginning
of the end of that phase of mylife.
(15:13):
Right, I didn't see it coming.
I didn't see it when thathappened.
Todd (15:16):
Right, and so that was the mountaintop, the pinnacle,
that's right, the mountaintop.
Ray (15:21):
I was 42 years old.
Todd (15:23):
Wow.
And then now, what was going onin your heart and mind at the
time?
Ray (15:27):
What was going on in my heart and mind was you know,
being a CEO isn't all it'scracked up to be.
There's a lot of parts to thislife and this role that I don't
enjoy at all.
There are some bits I like.
(15:48):
I like the bits working withclients and the front edge of it
, but a lot of the finance,legal selling and all of those
things.
I could do them, I wascompetent to do them, I had to
do them because I wasresponsible for the salaries of
all the company.
So it was okay.
But I thought you know what thisisn't, feeling like.
I'm really born to do this andI never could know what.
(16:10):
What am I meant to be doingwith my life?
You know, I just carried ondoing this because my business
partner was the woman I wasmarried to.
She was responsible for all theproject delivery in the company
and she was my wife.
So I loved her and wanted tosupport her and keep the thing
going.
But there was a sort of naggingfeeling of I'm not on my center
(16:30):
line.
I feel like I'm living someoneelse's life.
That was the feeling, and I'mnot sure what my life would be
if I was true and it all came toa head one day when, about
eight or nine years into thecompany's life, my wife came
back from a business meeting andsuddenly announced I'm leaving
you and I'm leaving the company.
Oh no, and it was really sudden, it was really shocking.
(16:52):
But looking back now, all theseyears later, it was the best
thing that could have happenedfor me.
Okay, because it forced me totake ownership for that inner
world and go.
I'm going to lose all this now.
It's all going to go and I nowhave to determine what my path
is.
And um, so circumstances sortof forced my hand a bit.
(17:14):
But also, my father got veryill at the same time as this was
going on, as if that wasn'tenough, and he he died shortly
after that.
Oh no, so within three or fourmonths my dad had passed away,
my marriage was ending, I wasout of my home and the company
was going to be changedirrevocably and it was
colossally difficult to containit and I I kind of spiraled down
(17:35):
into a bit of a depression fora year, to be honest I
understand that.
Yeah, I imagine it affected yourhealth too yeah, I just was
unmotivated, couldn't go out,didn't want to see anyone, felt
uncreative, all the, all thethings I had been before had
just gone out the window and, uh, and my best friend sort of
(17:56):
rallied around and one of themsaid you know, why don't you go
on a six-month sabbatical?
Why don't you try and makesense of this, reflect on it,
maybe get some new wisdom andinsight from life somewhere else
, not in london, but somewhereelse?
And uh, you know, see what, seewhat that brings and see how
that helps you set a new pathfrom here.
Yeah, I thought that's quite agood idea.
(18:18):
There's nothing to be lost fromthat, yeah.
So I set my life up to do thatand uh, as you know, and quite a
lot of people know, the-monthsabbatical did not go according
to the plan I had in my mindwhen I left.
Some weird things happened andI ended up living out of my
backpack for 14 years.
Todd (18:35):
Oh, my word 14 years.
Ray (18:38):
Yeah, totally unexpectedly and surprisingly, I never
returned to the old life that Ihad until 2019.
Todd (18:46):
Oh my word.
So you decided on a six-monthsabbatical.
I did yeah.
Were you planning to gobackpacking for six months?
Yeah.
Ray (18:53):
I was yeah.
Todd (18:55):
Okay, and was it living in hostels and stuff like?
Ray (18:58):
that, yeah, yeah, but I was going to Asia, to Thailand and
Cambodia and Laos and places inAsia, and I thought I'm gonna,
you know, possibly get a view oflife that's different in the
eastern parts of the world thanI would in the west, because
people think differently, gotdifferent outlooks, they've got
different cultures, differentideas about what's most
(19:18):
important in life.
Okay, and I wanted to tap intoa lot of that because I'd spoken
to one or two friends whotraveled that part of the world
and they told me howrejuvenating it had been, how
much it affected their thinking,and I was really kind of
inspired by that.
So, oh, that's good and then Imet someone in london, okay, a
woman who I liked, who was alsogoing to go traveling around
(19:40):
thailand and asia and go toaustralia after a year, and so I
said and we, we cooked up aplan to go together, basically
nice.
Todd (19:49):
So at like midway point of the six months, you were like I
think I'm gonna extend this, orhow did that?
How did it happen?
Ray (19:55):
it just played out, or yeah , mostly I was noticing, even
though I was in a beautiful partof the world aesthetically and
I was in thailand, it all lookedlovely on the surface, I was
wearing my shorts and t-shirtand sandals, and on the beach
and stuff inside, I was reallyagitated, feeling a lot of guilt
and shame about being aterrible husband who failed at
(20:16):
his marriage, um, scared aboutthe future, anxious about what
was coming next and all of thosethings.
Anxious about what was comingnext and all of those things.
And I authored a set of 10guiding principles after about
three or four months to help mehave a kind of safety rail to
lean on.
Okay, and I I made sort of 10kind of principles that I would
(20:37):
follow in order to bepsychologically safer.
Okay, and I know, and these areall in the book that I wrote
years later, but they werethings like self-acceptance,
non-attachment, making acontribution wherever I was,
modesty and frugality, thingslike this, things that would
help me stay mentally safewhilst I was in a massive
(21:00):
transition.
So I was going from being a veryrecognized and what's the word
with um status driven ceo tobeing completely anonymous, with
no status, just a poorbackpacker.
You know so, right, um, youknow.
So I was in a huge transitionand and then I met a traveler
after five months, could see mein this agitated state and he
(21:22):
said um, you know one thing Ithink you could do ray would
really help you.
We go into do a vipassanaretreat.
And I said what is a vipassanaretreat?
I never heard of it.
Todd (21:32):
I didn't even know what that was.
How do you?
What is that?
What type of retreat?
Ray (21:35):
there's a buddhist word, vipassana.
Okay, got it.
And and and it means vipassanameans mindfulness.
You know it's got it, it's gotthat connotation and and he said
you go into a monastery withmonks for 10 days and you stay
there and they give you arecommendation and you just
meditate in silence every daywith the monks and once a day
(21:57):
they kind of do a buddhistteaching for you to help you
understand how your own mind isworking and how it causes
suffering and how your thinkingdrives a lot of how it causes
suffering and how your thinkingdrives a lot of your decisions.
But it's not really thatreliable and you know it's a
chance to observe and learnabout your own mind.
I thought, I thought, gosh, Ireally, really, really want to
understand that.
So I went to do that retreat itwas month five or month six.
(22:20):
I did that and when I camethrough those 10 days which I
never thought I'd make, becauseI've never been silent for more
than 10 minutes um, I I was justabsolutely gobsmacked at how my
mindset changed.
I I felt like you know, whenyou shake a snow globe of a
souvenir you've been to on aholiday, and you shake the globe
(22:41):
and all this stuff's flyingaround inside.
When you put it down afterthree or four minutes,
everything settles to the bottomand you shake the globe and all
this stuff's flying aroundinside.
When you put it down afterthree or four minutes,
everything settles to the bottomand you can clearly see the
thing in the dome.
I felt like that in my own mindand and if I had a sound level,
the noise in my head before Iwent into the monastery was like
10 out of 10.
(23:01):
If I had a big knob on the sidemade you could twist, and it
was if someone had turned itdown to a.
It never goes away because yourmind is constantly commenting
on and narrating your life.
It can't be stopped.
It's going to speak to youalways.
You cannot stop your own mindtalking.
People say what do you meantalking?
(23:22):
And when they hear that, whatdo you mean talking?
That's their mind asking thatquestion.
That's it.
So it can't be switched off.
But I learned how to see thatand separate myself from the
noise of it that it makes andyou're the observer of that
noise rather than being caughtup in the noise.
(23:43):
Yes, it's a huge distinction yesand that's one of the
everything, wow.
Todd (23:48):
One of the biggest realizations I came to not I
didn't come up with it myselfwas just learning that you are
not your thoughts.
Ray (23:55):
Yeah, but to actually go through the physical steps to
get that, so it kind of youreally know it here, not up in
your mind, not as anintellectual concept, but right
as a knowing, because you'vefelt it and experienced it, yeah
, this is a big difference.
Todd (24:11):
So in modern society.
We're so, there's so much goingon and we're just so stirred up
it's difficult to just sit andbe alone in silence.
Yeah, yeah, because we're.
We live tortured existences, tobe honest.
Yeah, we do.
Ray (24:25):
It's wow 10 days yeah, we do, and that was a game changer
for me.
It was a massive game changer,so much so that I thought you
know what I'm meant to be goingback now to England.
But you know, this is justopened up something and I don't.
I'm not ready to go back yet.
And, by the way, just for thelisteners, I didn't have any
children when I was married andI got rid of a lot, pretty much
(24:48):
all of the stuff that I ownedbefore I left, pretty much all
of the stuff that I owned beforeI left.
So I didn't really have.
And I sold my house in londonbecause I put the money into the
bank, thinking that in sixmonths I'd come back and buy a
smaller place to live in.
Um, but I, so that was all onhold, you know.
So so I had actually no stuffto look after and no kids, you
know, no one waiting for me tocome back, no job, obviously.
(25:11):
No job because I wasself-employed, so I didn't
really have any need to returnreally, and so that made it easy
to say I'm going to just keepon with this journey for a bit
longer.
I wasn't sure how much, but Ithought I want to find a
community that I can join, whereI can meditate every week and
sort of really strengthen anddeepen my mindfulness practice,
(25:33):
because I could see how much ithad affected me.
Okay.
Todd (25:36):
And now, did you have contact with people back in
London or in the UK?
Ray (25:40):
Yes, Not much, not much.
But what I did was to keepeveryone up to date with my own
life.
I started writing a blog calledthe daily explorer.
Okay, and I was and I waswriting that regularly to share
stories about what was happening, what I was learning, what I
was learning from the journey.
And people loved what I wroteand I wasn't a writer or
(26:01):
anything like that but itstarted to help me hone and
develop my ability as a writer.
So I think that was one of thereasons why much later on in the
journey, I was called to writethe book, because I'd started to
learn about writing.
That's amazing.
Todd (26:18):
Now you called yourself.
You said this.
You said I was probably one ofthe oldest backpackers in Asia.
Ray (26:24):
I think so 45 when I left.
Todd (26:27):
Can you share any funny experiences you enjoyed during
the journey?
Funny.
Ray (26:31):
Gosh any uh funny experiences you enjoyed during
the journey?
Uh funny, gosh, uh funny.
You know, obviously in hostelsthere's a lot of young travelers
in their 19s 20s and you know,when we got cooked meals or had
talks over dinner, we we had alaugh.
You know, bantering around theconversations that we were
having.
So nothing particularly standsout as a funny story okay but
(26:52):
did they accept you?
Todd (26:53):
I mean, where is the younger?
Ray (26:54):
yeah, a lot of people were.
A lot of people were listeningquite intently yeah to the story
because they knew that's thejourney they were about to
embark on in their lives.
And here was a guy in his 40swho said you know, make sure you
choose wisely your path,because you could end up like me
, you could end up just gettinga what I call an off the shelf
(27:14):
life story.
If you don't take ownership foryour own unique vision of life,
you could end up with an offthe shelf life story that
everyone tells you.
That's because, when I wasgrowing up, people said, ray, if
you want to be happy as anadult, this is what you must do
you must get married, have kids,get a job, get a house, get a
mortgage and then you'll behappy.
And so that was theinstructions I got and I found
(27:36):
out, having executed that plan,that wasn't true for me.
It's true for some people, itwasn't true for me.
So I used to say to people Imet who were in their 19s and
20s, in their gap year just bereally careful, think about it.
And I told them my story and alot of them would say do you
know what?
I'm fascinated by what you'resaying and can I give you my
(27:57):
email address?
And I'd say, yeah, but why theysay well, at some point in the
future, you write a book aboutthis journey.
I'd really like to read it.
And I thought, I laughed.
I said I'm not, I'm just doingthis to heal myself, I'm not
doing it because I want to be anauthor.
I said, but I'll take youremail address.
But yeah, I said I'm veryunlikely to write a book.
(28:17):
But after five, after fiveyears of being on the road, I
had about I had about a hundredemail addresses that I'd
collected.
Wow, and I, and as the nextperson came, I thought do you
know what?
It's just dawned on me.
(28:39):
Why didn't I see this before?
I'm being called by theuniverse or whatever it is.
I'm being called to write abook about this journey.
I better learn.
I better learn how to write abook.
And I went on a course.
Yeah, that's how it came about.
So it's because people keptasking me.
It wasn't because I had leftwith that intention, but I was
asked so many times and you?
Todd (28:51):
you say you call that a confirmation signal.
So the people aroundconfirmation signal.
Yeah, yeah, that's right yeah,that's cool man, that's
fascinating yeah that is so coolso I thought, oh my god, I've
learned how to be a backpackerand a traveler.
Ray (29:05):
By the way, in that five years I became a fundraiser
because I went to an elephantsanctuary in thailand, I did a
picnic for some orphan kids innepal after I trekked around the
himalayas, and those two thingsalone they kind of brought me
to tears of joy because I sawhow much a little love and
kindness and a little bit ofmoney really helped those things
(29:27):
.
I thought I thought I want todo more of this.
I'm here, I've got time.
I could really help.
What could I do?
As I was r really help.
What could I do?
As I was ruminating on whatcould I do, I just randomly I
just happened to meet a guywho'd run six marathons.
He was 10 years younger than me, wow.
And I said tell me aboutrunning marathons.
And as he described hisexperience, I could feel my skin
tingling and I could feel myexcitement in my body listening
(29:50):
and I knew there was somethingwhat he was saying.
I said to him matt, his namewas matt campbell.
Yeah, I said, matt, do you, doyou think I could run a marathon
?
I was 48.
And he looked at me physically.
He said well, you kind of looksort of fit.
Have you ever run before?
I said no.
He said I'll tell you what.
Let's go for a run tomorrow andyou can wear my monitor and
stuff and and if I thinkeverything's okay, I'll offer to
(30:14):
train you to run your firstmarathon.
If you stay here in Chiang Maifor six months, I'll train you
and get you on the start line ofa marathon so that you could do
a fundraiser around it forthese things.
And I agreed to do it and sixmonths later more or less, I ran
the New York marathon.
It was November 2009.
That had been the marathon I'dalways dreamed I'd want to run.
(30:36):
If I did one.
And I managed to raise $15,000through my business network and
other connections.
And I finished the marathon,went back to Asia after it and I
took that money and deployed itto the elephant nature park
five thousand dollars.
And I took five thousanddollars to this orphanage in
(30:56):
nepal and had a new roof builton a school, bought some
computers, bought stuff theyneeded and just really spent a
year just getting all thesethings done to help these causes
.
So that was what was fillingthe time.
I wasn't any longer a tourist,I wasn't just traveling I.
I was actually doing meaningfulwork, just totally voluntarily.
(31:16):
I wasn't receiving any money atall, I just wanted to do it to
help them.
Todd (31:21):
Wow, that is amazing.
So you were doing all of thisto give back, so it's like
there's a lot of things going onthere.
Ray (31:34):
So you're excited about the marathon, but then you're
thinking how can I use this tohelp the people that I've met?
I only did the marathon toraise money.
That was what was behind it.
I mean, that was the reason Idid four more, by the way, I did
five.
In total, I managed to raiseabout $50,000.
Todd (31:44):
Wow, I mean I can look back on my own life and I can
see inflection points like thatwhere I just encounter chance
encounters with strangers yeahthat really just you know,
nothing major happened comingout of those meetings, but it
was like I can see those asinflection points yeah, that's a
good one, that's exactly soit's uh yeah, that's amazing.
(32:05):
So you what?
What places that first sixmonths?
Where were you?
When I was training no, no, I'msorry, the first six months I
was.
I was mostly majority of thattime traveling around thailand
okay did a little bit oftraveling in the neighboring
countries, but mostly inthailand okay, excellent, and
you spent your time in that areafor the whole 14 years, or?
Ray (32:27):
no, no, uh, I liked.
I liked the city of Chiang Mai,particularly liked it there.
It was just a lovely vibe andreally a very inexpensive place
to live and the quality oflife's good for the cost you
know.
So I really liked it.
And there are some wonderfultravelers there, some really
open-hearted, kind foreignersliving there.
(32:47):
So it was a place where youcould, you know, keep on your
personal growth path and getsupport for that.
And I found a Thai family whohad a couple of guest rooms at
their house and I was able totake a room with them and they
befriended me and I just feltreally at home there.
Even though I wasn't at home, Ifelt really at home there.
So any time I left, I left someof my stuff at their house so I
(33:11):
could come back to the room Iwas in.
So it became a sort of base inasia for me and I in in that 14
years, I'd say I probably spentabout four or five years in
thailand.
Okay, in thailand, yeah that's,that's amazing.
Todd (33:24):
I mean the thought of just taking in someone and you know,
yeah, yeah, that was, that'shuman connection.
Ray (33:31):
It was.
It was very, very.
I was very fortunate.
I felt a lot of the time I feltguided.
But then I say to people Icoach that guidance arrives the
more you start living lifeaccording to your values, vision
and what's really true for you.
And the more you startadmitting what's true for you
and actually choosing accordingto that, the more the universe
(33:52):
kind of aligns to give you whatyou need.
When you're not living true tothose things.
Life's an effort and it'sreally hard to make one step
forward because you're sort ofpushing against what you think
you want, because yourthinking's out of alignment.
Todd (34:08):
Yeah, well, let's dig into those things.
So you found this new missionin life?
Yeah, it sort of emerged foryou and you used that phrase.
Ray (34:17):
Confirmation signals as a navigation tool yeah that's
where I learned it as an air, asan aircraft pilot.
Todd (34:25):
That's where it actually came okay, yeah, I'm sorry, you
were a pilot as well, or youlearned it from a pilot.
Ray (34:30):
I was a pilot, yeah that's cool.
Todd (34:32):
So confirmation signals.
Ray (34:34):
So explain those so when you, when you're in the cockpit
of an aircraft or at least whenI trained, I didn't have gps, it
was quite a long time ago.
So you were, you werenavigating using charts in your
lap and looking up for things onthe ground, etc.
So the only aids that wereavailable were things called
vor's, uh beacons on the groundwhich emitted a radio frequency
(34:57):
and um.
So if you were flying from, say, london to birmingham,
birmingham airport has a vor atthe airport which emits a
specific frequency.
It's in the book, you know,it's got digits and you tune
your instrument to theBirmingham VOR and the needle in
your cockpit starts pointingtowards it, because you tuned it
(35:18):
.
Todd (35:18):
That is fascinating.
Ray (35:19):
And you just well, then you fly in the direction of the
needle because it's pointing tothat beacon.
So everything's fine, as longas you have selected the beacon
you actually want.
Because if you select by justmistake, birmingham's let's say,
birmingham is 124.8, but youselect 124.7, thinking that's
that one, but that's actually inthe opposite direction, it's
(35:42):
somewhere else.
You're then flying the needleto a place you don't want to go.
So to avoid that scenario,there's a Morse code signal in
your ear.
When you press the button, youget an audio confirmation, a
morse code signal in your ear.
When you press the button, youget a, an audio confirmation in
morse code that you have thebirmingham beacon.
It's unique, yeah, it's at.
If it's not the unique signalthat that beacon has, you know
(36:03):
you've chosen the wrong one.
So that signal confirms yourselection confirmation and tells
you you're headed in the rightdirection.
Todd (36:13):
Yeah, so I thought what a perfect metaphor for life yes,
because then, james and I, as wecame up with the name of our
podcast, and if you look at ourartwork and stuff, it's uh, it's
a map and a compass and so Iwas infantry in the marines so
we did land navigation with acompass and a map.
Ray (36:33):
So it makes sense to you, then yeah.
Todd (36:35):
So what you're saying, I'm like, okay, that's how pilots
did that, that's cool, yeah,yeah.
So you know it's talking aboutthe cluttered path, though.
I mean, it's like you do mapout your way, but then along the
way it doesn't look like themap.
No, it never does.
Yeah, no, it never does, yeah.
And you're encountering allthese obstacles along the way
and then the mission becomes howdo I navigate this path that
(36:58):
I'm on?
Yeah, and how do I get aroundthe obstacles?
And taking offsets and thingslike that.
But, wow, that is fascinatingman.
Confirmation signals.
Ray (37:07):
And so that enabled me to say, okay, I'm facing this
decision on this unchartedjourney.
I've been invited to do this orI'm getting called to write a
book.
How do I know that's the rightdecision for me?
Okay, well, here's a literaryauthor who's advertising a
five-day writing course inChiang Mai.
Let me test this out to see ifit's right.
(37:28):
I will contact her and I'll askher two questions and,
depending on the answer, it willconfirm it's wrong or it's
right.
I will contact her and I'll askher two questions and,
depending on the answer, it willconfirm it's wrong or it's
right.
So I contacted her and said Isee that you're doing a five-day
course.
It looks like it's for alreadyestablished authors.
I'm a complete beginner.
Would I be suitable as aparticipant or would I just be
in the way?
(37:48):
Because if I'd be suitable,along with these other authors,
I need that confirmed.
Second, is you're asking peopleto pay 1200?
I'm a backpacker fundraiser.
I don't have any income becauseI really didn't.
Can I do the course for 500?
Now, if I got yeses to both ofthose, I'd say that's going to
(38:11):
be my confirmation signal.
That's the the right choice.
If I don't, I'll find anotherway.
She came back and said yes andyes.
That confirmed it.
Todd (38:19):
Nice.
So my interpretation looking atthat, I can see that in my own
life when I was 18, I mapped outmy entire life and I thought,
okay, I'm going to do this, I'mgoing to do this, I'm joining
the military, I'm going to go tocollege.
Then I'm going to do this.
I'm joining the military, I'mgoing to go to college, then I'm
going to go back into themilitary.
I'm going to be a pilot.
This is what I'm going to do,but then along the way, I
diverted from that path and Ileft the military.
(38:40):
Yeah, what I took away fromthat is you have to take action.
Yeah, observe what's happeningand then make, make a decision
and act, and then things changeand be unattached to the action
you've taken.
Ray (38:53):
Yes, more like I.
I sort of think of it beingmore like a person conducting an
experiment rather than a personwho's got to achieve an outcome
whatever happens.
Yes.
That puts you in a sort ofstate of anxiety.
I think it's not helpful.
Todd (39:08):
Yeah, detach yourself from the outcome.
Ray (39:11):
Yeah.
Todd (39:12):
And uh yeah.
So there's a book I read calleduh, inner excellence yeah and
he talks about that.
You can't focus on the outcome,you have to just think about
the process.
Ray (39:21):
Yeah, I think what am I going to learn from this?
whether it works out, whether itdoesn't work out, excellent,
I'm going to learn somethingyeah and also I like the concept
that lots of writers have nowtaken on board from the three
principles work.
Michael Neal is perhaps bestknown because he wrote a book
called the Inside Out Revolutionand he's regarded as one of the
world's top coaches around this.
(39:41):
He says you have to shift yourorientation in life from an
outside-in way of looking atlife to an inside-out way of
navigating.
This is his way of describingit.
So an outside in person goesI'm unhappy.
I'm unhappy because out there Idon't have the right job or I
don't have enough money or mypartner's not the best part I
(40:02):
could have.
I'm going to go out, find a newpartner and then I'll be happy
in.
Yeah, this never works thisnever works this is the
orientation we're given aschildren when we're growing up.
But the real truth is I'm happyhow I am.
I accept and love myself.
I'm gonna just put thathappiness out into the world and
(40:23):
guess what lovely people areattracted to coming to me.
Yes, and I'm happy about that.
Yeah, I'm happy anyway, right.
Yeah, it's an inside out.
Your happiness is inside firstright, and it shines outward and
that shining outward brings toyou what you need and you've got
to trust life is going todeliver you.
(40:44):
Just you've got to trust thatat some point.
Todd (40:46):
You just got to let go and trust it's coming, it's coming
right all I've got to do is showup happy and we think that it's
the outside things, the, andthe grass is greener on the
other side of the fence and then, you, you get to the other side
of the fence and you kill thegrass, so yeah, correct.
Ray (41:01):
Correct.
You know this is big and that'sone of the major shifts in
orientation that I had frombeing a ceo.
I was very target driven andoutcome driven for the business
of, of course, yes, and I wouldsay.
People say the phrase is I'llbe happy when dot, dot, dot, you
can fill in your.
I'll be happy when we hit thisyear's revenue target.
I'll be happy when we hit nextyear's revenue target.
(41:23):
The happiness that came was forfive minutes.
Then I'll be now.
I'm not happy again until weget next year.
I'll be happy when I get abigger house.
I'm not happy again until weget next year.
I'll be happy when I get abigger house, I'll be happy when
blah, blah, blah, you know, younever, you never have enough.
It's always.
It's always just like thedonkey with the carrot it's
always just.
Todd (41:41):
And you never.
You achieve that and thenyou're still not happy and it's
never enough.
Ray (41:45):
But yeah, we are enough already.
That's the thing we don'treally get taught that right.
Todd (41:50):
And so that leads to the next question that so you
recommend people commit to apath that is true.
You say true and authentic.
What do you mean by that?
Ray (41:58):
yeah, I just mean that you first you start, you say
irrespective of what I do, whataction I do or what work I do or
any of those things as a humanbeing, what's really important
to me?
What in my daily life, what ismost important that I experience
?
And so people might say thingslike, for example well, I want
to experience being part of ateam.
(42:19):
I don't, you know, it could bein any job, but I like being
part of a team or community.
I like being in a team.
So that's.
Todd (42:26):
I write that down.
Ray (42:26):
I want to be in a great team, a team that lifts me, a
team that encourages me to grow.
In a great team, a team thatlifts me, a team that encourages
me to grow, a team thatsupports my growth that would be
an experience I definitelywould want, no matter what the
job was.
And then you say I want to be,I like learning new things.
I get really excited learninganything new, so I want to be in
a team, I want to be learning.
Uh, you might say I like doingthings that no one's done before
(42:50):
, so I like to pioneer newthings.
So now you got I want a life inwhich I'm in a team, I'm
learning new things and I'mgetting a chance to pioneer some
new things that no one's everdone before.
So now you're kind of getting afeel of what you're looking for
in terms of the experience.
So then when a job comes up,you can look at that job and
what's advertised and say towhat extent will I meet these
(43:10):
three needs that I have?
How?
What's the match there?
And so if it matches a hundredpercent, that's a really good
choice, yeah for you.
But if it doesn't match at alllike if it's data analytics and
you're sitting on your own withthe spreadsheet at home and
you're not in your team andyou're not learning because
you've got to do that for thenext five years and you know,
(43:31):
and it's and it's been, it'sjust routine maintenance and
there's nothing to be innovated.
You're going to be reallyunhappy.
Todd (43:38):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
What I'm taking away here iswell.
One thing I'm noticing is thatyou're writing things down.
Ray (43:46):
I'm making a note of these things because you've got to
know what your values are.
You have to know them and bereally clear with your own mind
what they are, because I thinkwe've got like this internal
dashboard that keeps us on thetrue path.
One is values, one is vision.
You know, what is the vision ofthe life that I'm trying to
(44:06):
author?
What?
Does that look?
like, not just my work, but mywork, family, family, children,
you know, contribution tosociety.
It's all in that vision.
What does that vision look like, and am I constantly moving
towards it, or am I moving awayfrom it?
So, values and vision, purpose,you know why do I wake up in
the morning?
What am I here?
(44:27):
What's my presence on earthmeant to be?
For you know what's it, what'sthe reason I'm, I'm here in this
incarnation, you know that'sfun.
Um, one is beliefs.
What are the beliefs I holdthat really empower me, like,
for example, I believe it'sreally good to be generous.
That's a very empowering beliefand it always adds when you act
(44:49):
out of it.
But I believe there's just not.
I don't have enough money toeven give anything.
That's a limiting belief,that's going to restrict your
thinking.
And then the last one is whatare the forces that drive me
that I'm not really consciouslyaware of?
And those ones are the same forall of us, for you, me and
(45:09):
everyone.
Ones are the same for all of us, for you, me and everyone.
There are things like the needfor belonging, security, the
need for recognition, the needfor you know, variety, things
like that, right.
So those, those are the fivethings on the dashboard.
Now.
That means that once a week, ormore often, you're going to sit
and make time to reflect onyourself.
Let me score myself on those.
(45:31):
Where am I?
You know how?
To what extent am I?
Am I meeting all of those fivethings on the dashboard and
where do I need to make changes?
Where do I need to pay a bitmore attention?
Where do I need to improve?
What do I need to shift here?
Todd (45:43):
Yeah, most of us have a check engine light on our
dashboard and we ignore it.
Ray (45:48):
Yeah, right, so that's the.
That's like a personalcheck-inin and I'd recommend at
least 20, 30 minutes ofreflection time a week for
someone who's busy.
Yeah so good.
Todd (45:57):
Yeah, most of us are just reactionary.
Life is happening and we'rejust being carried along by
whatever is in the river bumpinginto us.
Ray (46:06):
Yeah, exactly, and what I've just described to you there
is like I've got these.
My editors, when I wrote thebook, asked me to write what
would be my six rules for ahappy life.
So I wrote those in the book,and the first two were develop a
strong core of self-awarenessso that's creating the dashboard
.
And the second rule was takefull ownership for everything
(46:29):
that happens, because, eventhough you've got an
understanding of your values andyou've got a vision, other
people will take actions thatyou don't like or are not in
your plan, get made redundant orthis or that will happen.
Yeah, you cannot let thosethings stop you from moving
towards your vision.
You've got to find ways ofovercoming that, and so the
(46:49):
third rule, which is becomingyour own observer, is really
really vital, which is, you know, pay attention to what your
thinking is and, if it'slimiting what your choices are,
maybe shift the thinking andchange your thinking a bit to
unlimit yourself.
You know, yeah, and so thatI've explained that in a much
more depth than I can do in thisconversation, probably right
(47:11):
yeah.
Todd (47:12):
So now you're teaching others what you've learned.
You've written the book.
Now how did it come about thatyou decided to become a coach?
Ray (47:20):
well, when I was a ceo and I won this award, it was highly
publicized in the papers, and soI started receiving telephone
calls asking from other ceos andother leaders saying, whatever
it is you're doing with yourcompany, with your people, could
you share with me what you doand tell me what I should do?
I wasn't a coach normally then,but I said, yeah, I can make
some time to sit and take youthrough some of that if you want
(47:44):
.
And so I, and with mymanagement team in my company, I
have a very collaborative styleand I'm very coaching in my
style.
So I would even with mymanagers in the company.
I would say where are youtrying to get to?
What's most important for youin terms of your growth this
year?
What would be a milestone you'dlike to achieve for yourself?
(48:05):
And they'd say that.
And so I'd then be saying everymonth how are you getting on
with that?
Are you making the progress youwant?
What's getting in the way foryou?
How could you overcome that?
You know what would help you.
So I had a very coaching basedapproach anyway as a leader,
yeah.
And so I just thought you knowwhat I just really want to do.
Focus on this.
I don't want to own and operatea business.
(48:27):
I don't want the responsibilityof having to pay salaries every
month and run the company andown it.
I can do that, but it's not mein my element, it's not me at my
absolute best.
I just want to focus on theparts that really light me up
and discard the rest.
Todd (48:44):
Excellent One thing that strikes me here the coaching
emerged for you because peoplestarted asking rather than you.
Honestly, a lot of people haveappointed themselves life
coaches.
Ray (48:57):
Yeah, well, you know, if you're out of work and you need
money, you do what you need todo, don't you?
Todd (49:01):
Yeah, so it's interesting that a lot of stuff on LinkedIn
out there were.
Ray (49:06):
Yeah, out there were.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, now these days I meanbecause that psychological
contract of a job for life isgone we are seeing huge, huge
numbers of people now areself-employed and trying to make
that work.
Todd (49:18):
I got kids and families to look after and it makes sense
they have to find a way yeah, soI'll leave that one alone, but
I'll just say this there's a lotof people that they're they're
working their day jobs and theyhave a dream of becoming a life
coach, but they haven't donethat step of taking observing
themselves.
Ray (49:39):
Yeah, yeah, that's the most valuable part, yeah.
Todd (49:41):
Do I have this skill and are there people around me that
are confirming this and saying,yeah, you should do this.
We started the podcast.
This was after years of peoplesaying, hey, you should do this.
We started the podcast.
This was after years of peoplesaying, hey, you should.
You know, blah, blah, blah, andI got those confirmation
signals along the way.
Now, who knows, we may never,nothing may ever come of it
other than I'm really enjoyingthese conversations.
(50:02):
Who knows?
But, there's value in that alone, and I'm not.
You know, I'm not thinkingabout the outcome here, although
I do.
You know, sometimes I do thinkI would like for this to be the
only thing I do in life, but I'mnot attached to that.
So, yeah, man, this isfascinating, but for me, though,
as a nine-to-five employee, myperception is that most of these
(50:24):
C-suite execs, they're reallyjust hiding behind a facade and
they're just trapped in otherpeople's expectations.
So you came from that space.
Is that your perspective aswell?
Ray (50:35):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of it is.
You know, you just got thisdrive.
I have to.
I have to prove to my parentsI'm good enough to be doing this
or something.
You know I'm not sure it'sdifferent beliefs for everyone,
but that's why I think diggingin to ask oneself what are my
beliefs and which ones limit meand which ones really actually
serve me and help me grow.
(50:56):
Because if you're dry, beingdriven by some of these beliefs,
they're just just going tohinder your progress and
development.
And I kind of like it sayingyou're climbing a ladder but
your ladder is resting againstthe wrong wall.
You know so you just want tomake sure your ladder's against
the wall that's yours, the onethat you're actually trying to
(51:17):
climb.
Todd (51:18):
You may need to get off that ladder.
Ray (51:21):
Or move it to a different wall at least and put the effort
in, because you've always gotto put the effort in, but make
sure you pick the wall youreally want to climb.
Todd (51:29):
Right, and is the effort you're putting in aligned with
where you're trying to go?
Ray (51:34):
yeah, and you know with who you are yeah, absolutely, and
you know, I I think I've beenvery fortunate.
I want to be kind, you know, tothe listeners.
I don't want to say andeveryone's trying their absolute
best and working with thelimited awareness that they have
, so no one's's doing anythingwrong.
It's just that when you get newdata, even if it's about what
goes on in your own head, whenyou get new data to look at, it
(51:58):
can change your perspective andcan change your orientation.
But you've got to be willing togo and digging for the new data
inside your own thinking, right?
No one's coming to do it foryou?
Todd (52:09):
Yeah, just opening up a little bit about myself here.
I've spent a lot of my lifebitter and resentful about
circumstances, right, and thingsnot working out the way I want
them to.
Yeah.
But what was missing was that,the self-awareness, just sitting
down and settling my mind andthinking where do I want to be,
(52:30):
what do I believe, what are myvalues, and so conversations
like this with you, ray, havebeen so helpful for me.
So, thank you, you're welcome,thank you, it's good, and I'm
just thinking of people in mylife that are just faced with
this right now.
Just sitting back and life hasjust happened to them and
they're feeling trapped andthey're feeling isolated and
(52:53):
they're feeling like it's justnot worth it.
I mean, that's why the suiciderate is just epidemic
proportions, especially amongmen.
Ray (53:03):
Yeah, well, it's completely valid to feel that way.
And if I meet someone who feelslike that, I ask them what is
the thinking they're having?
That's that's driving thosefeelings, that, because it's a
think, feel, behave world welive in, you know, our behavior
is driven by how we feel, andhow we feel is driven by what we
think it is that order.
(53:25):
yes, so if someone's feeling bad, it means their thinking needs
to be examined.
They have to be willing to lookat their thinking.
There is no other way ofshifting that feeling to a more
positive, more encouraging, moreempowering feeling.
There is no way of doing thatif you're not examining your
thinking and being willing tolet go and change your thinking.
(53:47):
People say, well, you can'tjust change your thinking.
You can, you can actually do it.
Yes, you can't just change yourthinking.
You can.
You can actually do it.
Yes, you can.
There are ways of doing that.
Todd (53:54):
Yes, I literally just had a conversation with a
psychotherapist and he said it'sindependent of age as well.
It is so the old dog, newtricks thing is not true.
Ray (54:04):
Exactly.
We choose our thoughts justlike we choose something off the
menu in a restaurant.
We choose our thoughts justlike we choose something off the
menu in a restaurant.
Yes, we choose the thoughtsthat kind of we're most
comfortable or habitually usedto choosing, not the rest of the
options that are available.
Todd (54:19):
And we don't challenge the thoughts, the negative thoughts
that come up and this is me, soI'm not Right.
This is how I've operated formuch of my adult life is the
thoughts emerge, I don'tchallenge them, I accept them
and then I go along with themand then my feelings emerge,
negative feelings, and thatdrives behavior.
Ray (54:37):
Yeah, exactly.
Todd (54:38):
And so you end up leaving a job a good job because you
just had negative feeling.
This is me.
I'm not pointing the finger,I'm, you know, unsettled,
negative thoughts.
I changed jobs, yeah, andthat's not a good thing.
I've gotten better about that.
In, in, in recent years.
Ray (54:54):
But, uh, I get you, I get you, you really do.
Yeah.
One conversation can completelytransform your experience of
life.
Right and that decentconversation can shift
everything.
Todd (55:06):
Yes, and that is how I arrived at this point where it's
having these conversations.
I love this, so, wow, this hasbeen edifying.
Ray, I really thank you foryour time.
Ray (55:19):
Yeah, my pleasure.
Todd (55:20):
Yeah, so how can people contact you Ray?
Ray (55:23):
Well, a couple of ways I've got.
The book I wrote is called LifeWithout a Tie.
So there's a website calledlifewithoutatiecom that has a
bio of me and some bit about thejourney, lots of photographs
from the 14 years of journeythat I was in, because a lot of
readers who read the book saidcan we see pictures?
So we put loads of pictures upon the website for readers.
(55:45):
And I'm also on LinkedIn.
It's where I mostly communicatewith people in the business
world.
It's on LinkedIn and peoplewill find me on LinkedIn.
Those are the two best places.
If anyone wants to get the book, it's on Amazon.
Todd (56:01):
Yeah, and I'll put an affiliate link in the episode
description here and we'll alsoput links for lifewithoutatiecom
and also LinkedIn bio for Ray.
So, this is good man, so we'lldo that, but any takeaways you'd
like to leave with the audience.
Ray (56:17):
Oh gosh, I think we've covered a lot of ground here.
We've hit a lot, yeah, but if Ihad to come back to one single
point, it would always be.
You know, put your ladder upagainst the right wall, and that
means really give some thoughtto what is my true path and how
do I find and get a confirmationsignal?
Todd (56:35):
I wrote that down.
You said choose wisely yourpath, the confirmation signals
looking for.
And I'm telling you, so oftenwe don't seek out the
confirmation.
No we just barrel forward withI want to do this.
Yeah, I don't even have theskills to do that.
What am I doing't even have theskills to do that.
What am I doing here?
Yeah, yeah, exactly, and thatjust leads to a lot of
dissatisfaction.
But can do.
Ray (57:00):
And sometimes and sometimes accidentally at least a lot of
joy.
You know it's hard to say bedefinitive, but you know I can
only share the experience I'vehad.
But yeah, I mean, it'sdifferent for everyone
experience I've had.
Todd (57:12):
But yeah, I mean it's different for everyone my one
statement here that I'm takingaway at this point and I want to
leave is choose wisely yourpath.
Yeah, and that choosing there'sa lot wrapped into that
choosing because you, you needto sit down and think, write
things down and that choicebecomes an informed choice that
aligns with who you are andwhere you want to be.
So choose wisely your path.
(57:33):
So, thanks so much forlistening and if you enjoyed
this episode, please considerleaving a review and share it
with your friends.
And until next time, see you onthe path.
Ray (57:46):
This is the cluttered house .
Stories about life.
This could be for tonight.
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